Today’s Combat Story is a Frontline Perspective with Tamerlan Vahabov on Ukraine's Defense, Challenges, and Future. In this interview, Tamerlan tells us about his work as a former advisor to the Director of Defense Procurement and the Minister of Interior in Ukraine. He shares his compelling journey from Azerbaijan to Ukraine, highlighting his roles in government, law enforcement, and his direct experiences with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We dig deep into drone warfare and the intricacies of defense procurement, the challenges faced by the Ukrainian defense industry, and his ongoing efforts to aid Ukraine's war effort. This episode offers a rare glimpse into the life of a man who has been at the forefront of Ukraine's struggle, providing valuable insights and personal stories that underscore the complexities of the conflict
Tamerlan Vahabov was the advisor to the Director of the Defense Procurement Agency of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, 2024, Head of the Reform Office and Advisor to the Minister of Internal Affairs of Ukraine, 2021-2022, has held government defense industry, economy, and law enforcement positions in Kyiv, Ukraine, Lyon France and Baku, Azerbaijan.
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Show Notes:
00:00 Intro
00:33 Tamerlan's Background and Early Career
01:20 Experiences During the Russian Invasion
04:23 Law Enforcement and Military Career
11:41 Challenges in Ukrainian Defense
22:35 Addressing Defense Procurement Issues
23:19 Strategic Forecast for Ukraine and Russia
24:21 Exploring the US-Ukraine Rare Earth Deal
26:59 Personal Security Concerns in High-Profile Roles
28:29 Navigating International Military Deals
34:52 Commitment to Ukraine's Future
36:22 Early Conflicts with Russia
40:09 A Message to the US Audience
00:33 Tamerlan's Background and Early Career
01:20 Experiences During the Russian Invasion
04:23 Law Enforcement and Military Career
11:41 Challenges in Ukrainian Defense
22:35 Addressing Defense Procurement Issues
23:19 Strategic Forecast for Ukraine and Russia
24:21 Exploring the US-Ukraine Rare Earth Deal
26:59 Personal Security Concerns in High-Profile Roles
28:29 Navigating International Military Deals
34:52 Commitment to Ukraine's Future
36:22 Early Conflicts with Russia
40:09 A Message to the US Audience
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I was in, uh, in Kiev whenRussians invaded Ukraine.
And that was, that was quite an experiencebecause there were a lot of rumors.
People kept calling me and mycolleagues and other police and
military personnel that, okay,beware that there could be a landing.
There've been airborne divisionsof Russia landing nearby.
My girlfriend was pregnant at home.
(00:23):
Just, she said, youknow what, time to run.
Get the hell out of homeand go defend your country.
It's like, wow.
And seeing like people walkingaround with machine guns and
chance and challenge, that wasquite a shocking experience there.
Welcome to Combat Story.
I'm Ryan Fugit and I served WarzoneTours as an Army Attack Helicopter Pilot
and CIA Officer over a 15 year career.
(00:45):
I'm fascinated by the experiencesof the elite in combat.
On this show, I interview some ofthe best to understand what combat
felt like on their front lines.
Peace.
is combat story.
Tamerlan, thanks so much for taking thetime to share your story with us today.
Thanks, Ryan.
Hi, everyone.
Yeah.
So you're in a very scenic location,which we'll get to in just a moment.
(01:08):
For those who can't see you, uh,who are just listening, you've got a
very cool backdrop, but very quicklyfor people who don't know Tamerlan
Vahabov, former advisor to the directorof defense procurement, ministry
of defense in Ukraine, also head ofthe reform office and advisor to the
minister of interior internal affairsin Ukraine, been in government law
enforcement in a variety of places.
(01:28):
Very close to my heart.
You studied at Georgetown.
Thank you very much.
Right around the same time.
I did spend time at Navalpostgraduate school and obviously
two degrees in Azerbaijan.
Lots to cover.
Want to make sure we get there, butwe're three years in to the war with
Russia invading Ukraine here thatFebruary of 2025, you are really
(01:50):
an expert when it comes to defenseprocurement, weapons, military, and
we'll talk about what's going on, ofcourse, and some of your background, but.
Just curious, where were you whenyou found the news that Russia
was invading three years ago?
Well, Ryan, thank you very much for theintroduction and I'm happy to be here
on this platform and wishing you furthersuccess in making this a popular platform.
(02:12):
I'm sure it is.
So as for your question, Uh, well, I wasinvited to Ukraine back to Ukraine because
I had lived there before for severalyears, but I was holding a government
position in Azerbaijan in August 2021, andan unexpected call from the minister, the
(02:32):
newly appointed Team moves the ministerof interior of the plane and come here.
Let's discuss your, Imean, job opportunities.
So it was like people, somepeople knew me, they recommended,
they called me and said, like,well, yeah, okay, let's do that.
And it's a long, long story short.
I went to Kiev and accepted theoffer to become an advisor and to
(02:54):
the minister and head of the reformoffice responsible for security sector,
National Guard, Border Troops, etc.
And it was September, October2021, right before, several
months before the invasion.
So obviously when Russiansinvaded Ukraine and came to Kiev.
I was in, uh, in Kiev, in Ukraine.
(03:16):
And that was, that was quite an experiencebecause, I mean, although I have a
military background and I've been to warzones before, but That was something,
you know, because I love Kiev, it's my,I would say, favorite city in the world.
I can definitely say that and seeinglike people walking around with machine
guns and tanks and shellings, thatwas quite a shocking experience there.
(03:40):
And what we did, the first thing we did,we spent time at the, as an advisor to
the minister, we went straight to the,uh, Kiev, Sydney police department.
And we started forming volunteer, uh,like, uh, small units of volunteers
and we were arming them with,yeah, that was quite an experience.
(04:05):
And at that night, exactly.
What's going to, what's going to come,what is coming, you know, there were
a lot of rumors, people kept callingme and my colleagues and other police
and military personnel that, okay, beaware that there could be a landing
that could be an airborne divisionsof Russia landing nearby, but we
were prepared to fight basically,and we spent the entire night there.
(04:29):
And then, but like, well, that's apersonal story, but my girlfriend was
pregnant at home and imagine that in KLand it's showing everywhere, we can hear
this and there we were just, she said, youknow what, time to run, just get the hell
out of home and go defend your country.
It's like, wow, that's,that's what she said.
(04:51):
So that's what I did.
And, um.
Oh, that was my first encounter directly.
What an amazing story.
And you've got a very interestingbackground, Tamerlan, with, with law
enforcement, um, the military side.
Can you share just a littlebit, how did you get into
these different roles earlier?
(05:12):
Oh, well, well, I mean, it's, it's,I have a long career actually in
both government and private sector,but when it comes to law enforcement
and military, I started as a cadet.
And the Academy of the Ministryof Internal Affairs of Azerbaijan.
And I lived in barracks for fouryears in uniform, etc. It was like a
military academy that would producepolice officers and National Guard
(05:34):
officers, which is a military, um, unit.
I mean, it used to be calledinternal troops in the Soviet Union.
So now in Ukraine, this is National Guard.
So it's like semimilitary law enforcement.
Um, like unit.
So after graduation, I worked foralmost three years at the Drug
Enforcement Department of Azerbaijanof the Minister of Interior.
(05:58):
I was responsible for the UNDP UnitedNations Development Program and
Azerbaijani Ministry of Interior Affairs.
Affairs, um, project, uh, of,uh, drug enforcement project
in the, uh, South Caucasus.
So that was my role.
And after that, I, I, I got ajob, uh, with Interpol's general
secretary and France Lyon,and, um, I spent 2005 and six.
(06:23):
There, uh, I was the co chiefand co coordinator, let's say, of
the anti terrorism project there.
I was responsible for former Soviet Union,including Ukraine, Russia, Chechnya,
and South Asia, Pakistan, Afghanistan,Central Asia, dealing with Islamic,
like, like violent manifestationsof, um, like Islamic radicalization,
(06:44):
uh, terrorist organizations.
Their links was different areas forfinancing, let's say, even up to.
Triple frontera is like tie borderarea, Latin America, because I
mean, I speak Spanish and I wasalso responsible for that part.
So that's why that was quite afascinating story, let's say.
(07:05):
And after that, I went back toAzerbaijan to work for one year as
a minister of foreign affairs, soAzerbaijan was responsible for the U.
S. Relationship back there.
I was partially coveringthe security as well.
I was actually inside the team that wasresponsible for driving the Russians out
of Azerbaijan was their radar station.
If you remember in 2007, the United Stateshad plans to deploy a missile defense
(07:29):
system, meaning Poland and Czech Republicand put it back then that was George W.
Bush.
Um, to jointly use as a Bajani radarstation that is in Azerbaijan, the Soviet
one, we didn't want it and as Azerbaijan,and so didn't the U S so I was together
with my minister negotiating with theU S side, how to kick the Russians out.
(07:52):
That's, it's a common theme.
Yeah.
Yes.
And we, we did it.
We, we succeeded.
They left because we increased the rent.
We tripled it.
. Yeah.
It's all about money.
Yeah.
That was, yes, that was the area.
And Russians asked us,okay, you know what?
You know if you do that?
Okay, let us tell that yourradar station is crappy.
At least let us face, save our face.
(08:13):
This like, okay, just leave.
Say whatever you want.
Wow.
That was a little bit funny, butthat was my experience there.
And back after that, I went to the UnitedStates, studied at the Naval post crisis
school, got my master of science degreein guerrilla warfare, defense analysis.
Then Georgetown masters.
I lived there for severalyears, almost five years.
And then I had my, I was an entrepreneurfor 10 years in the fast sector,
(08:37):
education and information technologies,mostly serving, uh, I was a government
contractor for several countries.
And after that, I went back again toAzerbaijan, uh, to work as a deputy
director for small and medium sizedenterprise development for two years.
Then I was head of theUnited transit operator.
It's a state owned company inAzerbaijan, responsible for all
(09:00):
the transit of goods in Azerbaijan.
It was like an anti corruption move,given my security background, because
I, my main task was to identify all theorganized crime and corrupt, let's say,
um, schemes and models used in the regiontogether with Georgian counterparts.
So we did it.
A lot of people got fired.
And after that, I got an invitationto Ukraine to reform the After
(09:24):
that, unfortunately, our ministerdied in a helicopter crash.
Minister Monastirsky, if youremember, like two years ago.
So, and then I was invited toUkroboronprom, it's Ukrainian government.
I worked for two years as an advisor tothe director of Fukuroboron service, it's
like largest special exporter responsiblefor supply and production and, uh,
(09:47):
ammunition supply production, et cetera.
That's what I did.
I have a lot of storiesto tell about that also.
My last job was with theminister of defense of Ukraine.
I was an advisor to thedefense procurement agency.
So here it is.
That's great.
Um, and so it sounds like youare from Azerbaijan, not Ukraine.
Is that right?
Original?
(10:07):
Yes.
Yes.
But it, does Ukraine feel like you'redefending your home country on this?
Of course.
Yeah.
Of course.
I mean, um, my, uh, let's say,uh, everything first happened to
me in Ukraine, a lot of things.
My kids were born there.
Um, and, um, my daughter is halfUkrainian and I've lived in Kyiv
(10:29):
since 2010 and my, everything is here.
My family, my.
Residents, my house, my favoritecar, everything is here.
So I'm, I'm based here.
It is my home.
So of course, and still go from time totime to places close to the frontline.
Of course, I do not engage in combatbecause I don't have authority for that.
(10:52):
But, um, yeah, of course I'm doingeverything I can for Ukraine.
And we'll talk more about whatthe front lines look like.
You are, you're in Istanbul now.
On a work trip, justfor people's awareness.
Can you kind of share?
Like, what is the kindof work you're doing now?
Um, since you're not in thatadvisory capacity any longer, you're
(11:12):
still fighting this war, right?
Yeah.
Well, um, I do several things.
I do scientific work right nowbecause I'm working on, um, a
few, uh, scientific, let's sayresearch areas related to the war.
That's one thing.
And the second thing that I'mstill, uh, trying to coordinate.
Supplies of ammunition, especially partsand components of artillery shells,
(11:35):
mortar bombs, like TNT, RDFs, fuses,uh, increment charges, um, propellant
charges, powder, because this is like abig deficit all across Europe and Ukraine,
so I'm helping to open new supply channelsto Ukraine, so our, um, let's say state
owned companies in Ukraine and Ukraine.
Europe did not stop.
So it's one of my major tasks.
(11:57):
I'm also partially helping theCzech initiative for ammunition.
I'm in touch with our Czech colleaguesat the Ministry of Defense on both.
So I'm like, I'm in the game,but right now I took a pause.
To deal with all these issues and alsocomplete my research, and then I will
probably go back to the government.
Interesting.
(12:18):
So when you and I were coordinatingthis interview, we talked briefly
about just a few days ago.
There was an attack.
I think.
Certainly on Ukraine, I think onKiev with maybe 260 drones that
came over for many of us Americans.
We, we know drones like thereapers from our wars in Iraq and
(12:39):
Afghanistan and now we see DJI drones.
What are these drones actually like whenyou're sitting in Kiev and you see 260
come across, what do they look like?
What are the sizes, capabilities?
It's evolving quickly.
Well, if you're talking like aboutUAVs, drones specifically, um,
this is mostly, um, drones that aremade based on the Iranian Shahids.
(13:03):
Uh, this is a fixed wing drone, uh,with an internal combustion engine.
Most of them, they're gettingquieter, but you can still hear them.
This is a, quite a fascinating story.
He makes like, I mean, it's tragic andfascinating at the same time, because
you know, that they are coming andbringing this, you know, and destruction.
(13:23):
And there are a lot of them.
And sometimes you can just be sleepingand you hear this engine noise, it reminds
you a moped, you know, a small motorcycleflying over your house, you know, and
that, then you identify there, this is it.
And then boom, you can, if you're nearby,it can hit something, I don't know, some
(13:47):
building or our glorious, I would say,uh, air defense people shoot them down.
They do a great job.
I mean, we are extremely gratefulbecause they are saving our lives
of civilians, of children andelderly and civilian infrastructure.
But this is, I mean, I wouldsay for most people, it's scary.
(14:08):
I'm a military person.
I mean, I wouldn't say I'm not scared,but I mean, I'm used to, I'm expecting
that, but a lot of people do not want toaccept this reality and they're right.
They're civilians.
So this is, this is, this is quite,quite dangerous because even if the
air defense system, uh, destroysthe drone, it's parts can fall on
your house or on you, which happens.
(14:30):
So this is.
Uh, and they are, um, they're bringinga payload quite quite an impressive
payload and also our drones are cheap,you know, relatively that can make
a lot of them and they increase thenumber of this is, this is the thing I
mean, they are hitting the right recordlately, like last two, three weeks.
(14:51):
It's 100, 200, 300 tons a night
and that's making it to Kiev.
Not all of them, of course, some of them.
Yes.
I mean, Kiev, Kiev region, uh, yeah.
But most of them fly to Kiev to Odessa,to other places, urban settlements, as
(15:14):
if they are targeting some Centers ofdecision making, as they say, yeah, are
the, are these mainly, um, controlled byone individual or is there any autonomous
capability in these now of human for UAVs?
Yeah, if you're talking to specificallyabout the UAVs, uh, well, this
(15:35):
is like a deep strike, right?
They don't have any, um, let'ssay smart capabilities on them.
So you have coordinates.
It's an inertial navigation and theyare sent there, but they have quite
an agile system to fly and avoid areaswhere electronic warfare is active.
So, I mean, if you put it simply, soeveryone understands, so this is how
(15:59):
it works, but it is quite efficient,uh, from their point of view, uh, to
bring, let's say, um, destruction.
To our civilian infrastructure, whichis, I don't understand what's the point
because this unites Ukrainian people evenmore against Russians, you know, the more
they strike them, the more we are reunitedwhen it backfires at some, but yes, it
(16:22):
destroys things, but people die, but thisis not affecting the course of the war.
I don't know why they're doing it.
Yeah.
I know, but this is backfiring.
But no, I mean, they do not haveany like smart technologies on them.
Like that is some sort of extraordinary,you know, It, um, you know, it just
(16:44):
occurs to me as we look at the warand you've been following it so
closely, you've written just somegreat articles in, um, global papers
about some of the challenges that theUkrainian defense industry is facing.
So I'm curious to get yourtake on where that stands now.
And what do you think is going tohappen in the next two to three
(17:05):
months with Ukraine and Russia,with the way things are moving?
Well, when it comes to thechallenges, A lot of challenges in
the Ukrainian defense, um, industryand defense procurement generally.
Uh, when it comes to, uh, the systemitself, the major problem is the
collection and analysis of theneeds for the Ukrainian army by the
(17:28):
headquarters of the army headquarters.
Uh, it has to be a quicker, moredynamic, more efficient, more
precise, uh, still problems.
I mean, I will not beable to share everything.
It's a sensitive information, butoverall, uh, these are the problems.
And then another problem is withthe minister of defense itself.
(17:48):
Well, when it comes to the procurementside of it, because the procurement
depends on the needs analysis andassessment that need to precisely reflect.
The frontline needs that is not always thecase in the, in Ukraine's case, and when
it goes to the DPA defense procurementagency and it's regulating bodies,
department departments that are abovethat there again, um, there are problems
(18:11):
with identifying those, uh, goods thatare needed for the army, like weapons,
ammunition, et cetera, because there'sa global deficit of, um, ammunition,
generally mortar bombs, artillery shells,how it serves and their components.
So, uh, you have to really know the marketvery well to identify the rough suppliers.
(18:32):
And so you don't go to intermediaries.
If you don't know that there are alot of middlemen that, or is it just
sorry for my friendship, Crooks.
Yeah, you know, come and take moneyand then disappear, or it's like
a triple the price, then a lot of,uh, non deliveries delays, which
affects the front line, of course.
(18:53):
So you really have to bea professional on that.
And the third thing is UAVs UAV.
Yes.
We have great companies in Ukrainethat can do an amazing job.
They have, they're very agile andthey have almost all types of drones,
but the problem is we do not have.
Or joint unmanned systems architecture,which in my opinion is important
(19:14):
because you have it in the UnitedStates, I think it was designed
by RAND Corporation in the 90s.
It's like an interoperabilityplatform on a physical and logical
level for all unmanned systems.
If you don't have that, it affectsyour, um, war tactics because, uh, you
don't know how to deploy them togetherand how they will speak to each other,
(19:34):
let's say, and if their spare parts are.
Uh, interchangeable on a logical andphysical level, if you don't have that,
your assets are, uh, are, let's say,spread out and they are, um, not as, um,
they don't have this cumulative effect.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's in the work, like whenit comes to procurement, that's
another problem because defenseprocurement agency cannot communicate
(19:56):
it to investors and to businesseswho produce them what is needed.
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So this, this creates arisk for corruption because
you need to go to units.
(21:20):
Ask them they tell you something, whichyou're not sure if it's true that they
needed, you know, if they need it.
Yes, I need this and you invest1, 000, 002 million euros.
Let's say dollars.
And then the headquarterssays, okay, we don't need that.
Yeah, you're bankrupt, you know,this is and in order to get
this information, there is a redtape and also a lot of lobbying.
(21:42):
Sort of the entire chain to understandwhat is really needed, what, what,
so not every company has thiscapability to get inside and know this.
And sometimes it is associatedwith fortunately corruption and
lobbying or friendships or whatever.
I mean, these are the risks.
I'm not saying that it's always like that.
It's real.
Yeah.
This, this creates a risk.
(22:03):
That's why our drone, um, industry isnot as sustainable as it could have been.
That's why we cannot.
get to the level of parity with Russians.
Let's say they strike200 drones per night.
We cannot do the same.
Why?
Because of this, you know, how do youovercome the, the global deficit for
some of these munitions and capabilities?
(22:25):
It is important to reach out to countries.
Which are not under us sanctions,but they have these capabilities
and start buying it from them.
If we are talking about firefightingright now, I mean, of course, of course,
ideally, uh, we would need to investmore, all the allies of Ukraine and NATO
into, uh, the, uh, propellant charges,uh, powder, DMT, RDX, fuses, et cetera.
(22:53):
But I think it's not timely right now.
It's very capital intensive.
But right now we need professionalsat the minister of defense of Ukraine,
procurement, it's management to goout and find, and I don't identify
those like companies, uh, whereyou can buy those, um, things.
So because otherwise, because allthe European and American factors,
(23:17):
most of them are depleted oroverbooked over the coming years.
Um, we are in a very difficult situation.
It's a deadlock almost, but we cando maximum to squeeze out everything
from, uh, uh, what we have right now.
Global is.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's not just, I mean, someof these places can't produce anymore,
(23:40):
but even if they could, there'sthis idea of, are they producing
the thing that you actually needon the front lines or that has the.
The longer term capabilityand interoperability.
Okay.
That's interesting.
That's right.
And this is actually the advancesRussia has over us because
they can buy it from Iran.
They can buy it from North Korea.
I don't know if they'rebuying it from China or not.
I will not be claiming that,but I'm sure that North Korea is
(24:04):
selling them a lot of stuff, right?
So we also need to identify ourcountries that are not on the sanctions
that are legitimate and so we canwork with them outside of Europe.
I mean, then.
And there are some of them, butunfortunately in Ukraine and defense
sector, this, um, uh, the lack ofprofessionals and sometimes corruption,
(24:25):
uh, hindered this, which is not a secret.
It was on me on the media recently,the first deputy minister of defense,
Ivan Havryluk, general Havryluk,he admitted this and he said there
were problems with professionals andwith non deliverers because of that.
That's why he removed, they removed thechief of the defense procurement agency
and the deputy minister responsible for.
(24:48):
I also don't want to paint a picturelike America is great at this.
I mean, we have experience withthe procurement process, but
we always want it to be faster.
I have been on the tactical sideand not gotten what I needed
from a deep investment in funds.
Um, we have our own corruption,but you're dealing with it on,
on another scale right now.
It's crazy.
Of course.
(25:09):
How do you see.
How do you see, um, the next two to threemonths playing out with what, what's
going on now on the ground and at thestrategic level with Ukraine and Russia?
I think a lot depends on Ukraine as wellhere because Ukraine is at the war and
it is suffering this Russian aggression.
Of course.
Um, I think it is important forUnited States and Ukraine start
(25:34):
talking, start talking seriously.
It is very difficult to forecast anythingright now, uh, what's going to happen, but
I'm anticipating this talks on a technicaland professional level between, uh, Trump
and Zelensky administration, first ofall, and see what, what is the outcome?
Because I think it's tooearly to make any predictions.
(25:54):
If the deal is, is going through, whichis, which looks like it's going through,
um, they deal on a rarest materials.
And U. S. would be, will have a vestedinterest in Ukraine and Ukraine will get
its share from that, uh, deal also, liketype of production share agreement type.
Can you explain what that deallooks like just at a high level for
(26:16):
people who might not be familiar?
Sure.
Sure.
Um, well, President Trump,uh, offered this deal, uh, to
explore and, and extract, uh,Ukraine's rare earth materials.
Or aluminum, et cetera, titanium.
It is needed for production ofvarious products for defense
industry, it, and I don't know,batteries, et cetera, et cetera.
(26:37):
I'm not an expert on that, but I'm juston a, but this is what Ukraine has.
It's, it has a rich soil and it, it is.
Positioned by the Trump administrationby white and by the White House as their
payback for the all the internationalassistance that came from the United
States to Ukraine and at the beginning,the, uh, the demand was much higher,
(26:59):
but it looks like like 500 billionrepay from Ukraine in the form of those
materials and the revenues from it.
But now, as I understand, because thereare I mean, the details are not yet fully
disclosed, it is disclosed, but I can tellyou that, uh, there, there, there will
be a font, a joint font set up between,uh, Ukraine and the United States.
(27:23):
Uh, that will, let's say, gather alltheir revenues and the United States
will have a stake there, Ukraine willhave a stake there, and the United States
will be, uh, taking back its, let'ssay, uh, returning its investment into
Ukraine, if it's, if it makes sense.
So this way, uh, Ukraine will also getits revenue share there, smaller, maybe at
the beginning, and then it might increase.
(27:43):
I think I would do this.
I would definitely increaseUkraine's share later.
Um, uh, at the same time, um.
It's for Ukraine.
It is interesting because it willbring in technologies, expertise,
jobs, and also having the U.
S. investment in Ukraine will, uh,somehow secure it militarily from
(28:06):
like direct attacks, possibly.
But the only thing that is still missingin this deal is a specific security
guarantees to Ukraine, which is, whichis, which worries me, honestly speaking.
It's not there yet, but Ithink that has to be there.
So if it is weaker than Budapestmemorandum of 1994, I was signed by
leading like nuclear powers for, todisarm Ukraine from Soviet stockpile.
(28:31):
Well, it didn't work unfortunately.
So I hope they will come to, to anagreement on like specific mechanism for
security guarantees, which is missing.
That's on a, in a nutshell,on a strategic level, this is
how it looks like right now.
But let's see, becauseI need to go and talk.
Yeah.
(28:51):
With, with your high profile, the kindof strategic roles you've been in and,
um, you know, public facing image, doyou have to be careful just about your
security as you travel your family?
Um, just in general, I'm sure youmeet some very interesting people
in these different, in thesedifferent occupations you've had.
(29:11):
Oh, yeah, it is.
It is dangerous.
I mean, I honestly speaking, Ihaven't had any direct like threats.
Yeah.
But, um, I could hear like from here andthere how, uh, various actors in those
countries where I go for what I wouldneed in Ukraine, military goods, uh, there
(29:33):
are some warnings, you know, why thisguy was here, you know, that he's like.
doing the job for Ukraine and he startedin the United States, you know, this kind
of things, of course, uh, make, make mecautious, but that's why, but you know,
this is my job is what my education is.
My profile is, I knew.
(29:53):
What I'm doing , where I'm goinginto, you know, security sector.
I'm sure you also know this.
So, I mean, there are a lotof crazy stories about that.
But yeah, I think one of thedifferences though is my family wasn't
always like right on the front lineswith me the way they are with you.
I mean, you've got a veryreal concern there for sure.
My, uh, yeah, fortunatelymy daughter studies in, in
(30:14):
Europe, in the European Union.
Um, Tamerlane, can you take us throughmaybe, uh, just one experience that
really stands out with some interestingcharacters you may have rubbed
shoulders with, had meetings with in,uh, some of these roles you've had?
(30:35):
Yeah, sure.
Um, I mean, there aremany of them, of course.
Um, when I was with the Ukrainiangovernment, uh, like recently was this
war, say, um, There were several hundreds,hundreds of pieces of American machinery,
like military machines, combat vehicles.
(30:57):
Uh, yeah.
Okay.
I will name it.
It's Paladin 109.
And it's, you know, and it's anAmerican made grain machines.
Uh, it's one five, five millimeter selfpropelled artillery systems for our Um,
uh, viewers to understand what it is,and of course we need how it's, there's
always both thousand and those, uh, andno one would able to go into that country.
(31:20):
It's a small country in the MiddleEast and a lot of people in Ukraine and
all over, we're talking about, okay,we need to get those cars, you know,
those vehicles, we will pay for it.
Of course, I mean, and it waslike a very expensive deal,
but that's for the government.
They're like, we're talkingabout several hundreds of those.
And I was like, okay, let me try, becauseI know some people there and I'm not
(31:42):
going, you will not be able to do that.
And we can, uh, several people went there.
They just had some whiskey and cameback and no one showed them anything.
I said, okay, let me try.
And I took one of my colleagues andwe flew just to the Middle East.
And it's like, okay, I made somephone calls in advance, of course.
And people came, I said,like, okay, what do you need?
I said, listen to that.
It's all good.
No problem.
(32:03):
But don't tell them where youcome from and just tell us, tell
them that you work for, I don'tknow, some local defense company.
I said, okay.
And don't say that you'refrom Ukraine, basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
And don't show anything.
And they say, okay,don't wear a put on this.
It's a military style, you know,forum, like type of things, you
(32:24):
know, and we went there and.
They showed us the Eldoradoof weapons and ammunition, of
rockets, of vehicles, everything.
I was like, damn, if you buy these,we can win several Ukrainian wars.
I was shocked.
I was like, okay, here's our keys.
You can drive in a car.
Wait a second.
(32:44):
I'm not like any driver or something.
I can do it, but you do it.
Show me it works.
Yeah.
We did the inspection.
I said like, okay, how dowe get this out from here?
That was another challenge 'causeUkraine warned me that you cannot get
the export license from that country.
Okay.
I was like, well, I said like,yeah, well, the military guy said,
(33:04):
okay, this, this, this is, okay.
This is, um, a military official militarybase, which, which was, it was guarded.
Of course, everyone is a military and so,but those are owned by a private company.
It's like, which privatecompany, that one.
So, and it popped up in my memory thatI know the guy who owns this company.
And I called him as well.
And then this guy cametogether with the military.
(33:27):
We sat down.
I was like, okay, yeah, here's apaper of ownership, everything.
And military confirms it.
It's like, and my colleagues gets moreand more shocked from Ukraine as we go.
I'm like, okay, I'm a musician sometimes.
And, and then it's like, okay,um, there is a third problem.
United States has to givethe authorization for that.
(33:48):
Third party transferauthorization, TPT certificate.
It's like, okay, wait a second.
Make another call to my classmatefrom one of those universities.
He was in a position and heconnects me with a local guy.
Yeah, he made a few calls andin one or two days, it's okay.
(34:13):
We are ready to provide you with this.
I'm like, that was like quite anexperience and no one knew who we
are, but we solved the problem at thatlevel, you know, three actors, the
government of that country, the company,and, Which I apparently knew, and then
(34:33):
my, um, well, classmates helped me.
Yeah, so much to do with relationships.
Yeah, these people, you know, huge cheese.
If younger people listen to us,I think they should know this.
I mean, this is important.
Another thing is related tomy previous, previous job.
Long time ago, one of my bosses,it was, he's still active duty.
(34:54):
He's a general and a lot of peoplewere accusing him, you know, like.
Oh, yeah.
You know, you torture people.
It's like, well, he was not actually,but he was ready to meet, you know, and
one of the Western company countriesasked for a meeting and I was there
and this guy didn't speak English.
So can you help?
(35:15):
I was a young guy, you know,I was like, can you translate?
Uh, you know, no problem.
I came in to translate and thensaid, like, I will make some, some
jokes, but don't take it seriously.
Don't laugh.
It's like, okay.
And then these people from the Westerncountry came to look, Oh yeah, you
know, Mr. General, whatever, thank youfor finding time to meet us, et cetera.
(35:36):
And this guy comes, he's a big guy,you know, like six, three or four,
um, like he's like rubbing his hands.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm really busy.
Actually.
I just came back from torturingpeople, you know, Yeah.
How'd that go over?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How did that go over with the crowd?
Yeah, I'm sure they were, theywere like, the jaws dropped.
(35:58):
It's like, and then he's like, okay,tell them, tell them stretch out.
Yeah.
It's a joke.
And he was, he sat down withthem and he relaxed and he
said like, don't worry guys.
I mean, I will prove you that I'mnot, I'm not as bad as you think I am.
And yeah, they went over a lot of things.
They got convinced and they loved him.
They became friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
But that joy.
(36:18):
That's awesome.
But that was, I was, I was laughinglike, so I love stories like that.
Yeah.
Tamerlan, what, um, what do you seeyourself doing in the next year or two?
You still live, you're justliving in Ukraine, fighting this
war, supporting somehow, findingyour way into government again.
(36:40):
Absolutely.
I'm committed to Ukraine.
Um, I'm, I'm doing everything here.
I mean, I, let's say right now, I, Idon't, do not stop my war against Russia
because my war started a long time ago,even when I was in, as was in Azer, Bajan.
Um, a lot of things.
I can talk about it later.
Yeah.
But right in, in the next one or twoyears, of course, uh, I'm planning
(37:01):
to go back to the government.
At some point, and, um, right nowI'm doing everything in my capacity,
whatever I can, because my hands arefree without the government title.
So that's why I can, um, uh, travel anddo, I do everything at my own expense.
So I don't get any money for that.
It's just a volunteer work,let's say, but that's what I do.
(37:25):
And yeah, in one or twoyears time, I might go back.
Yeah.
Can you tell us where didyour, Oh, no, go ahead.
Keep going.
Nope.
Yeah.
I mean, I never asked for a position, youknow, it, it all came, uh, unexpectedly.
So I'm sure that atsome point, uh, things.
And this situation will be suchthat I will need to go back
(37:48):
and help in different capacity.
Yeah, please go ahead.
I was going to ask, please tell uswhere did your fight with Russia
start that you just alluded to?
Yeah, it started, uh, back in Azerbaijanat the minister of internal affairs
when I was responsible for, um,the drug enforcement in the South
(38:08):
Caucasus, uh, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
Our allies and we were working togetheras part of the U. N. D. P. United
Nations development project and U.N. O. D. C. which is based in Vienna.
It is United Nations officeon drugs and organized crime.
A lot of resolutions that we werefighting with Russians to condemn, um.
(38:30):
drugs trafficking, human beings,trafficking, and other dangerous
materials and radiological materialstrafficking through occupied territories
of former Soviet Union, let's sayTransnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia,
Nagorno Karabakh, et cetera, et cetera.
So that was our goal to preventit because that's an uncontrolled
illegitimate regimes are there justsimilar to what's going on now in Ukraine.
(38:55):
So, um, Russians of course, did notwant to support those very solutions.
I suspect that they hadsome interest in that.
I cannot prove that, but,uh, to our knowledge.
That was the case and they were, theywere fighting us fiercely and it was like
a, uh, normative and legal battlefield.
Let's say over the table.
(39:17):
So I know I was, I was, I was ayoung officer and it was difficult
for me because this kind of.
battlefield, let's say diplomatic.
Yeah.
It's tough to withstandstuff to restrain yourself.
You really have to be very coldblooded professional, careful
for every comma and dot there.
Yeah.
(39:37):
This is, this is how it started.
Then it continued when I was atInterpol General Secretariat, of
course, I could see what they'redoing with, um, Chechnya problem.
And of course there were alot of human rights violations
in among civilian Chechens.
Not all Chechens areterrorists or separatists.
It's a people of 1.
5 million, I guess, as far as I remember.
(40:00):
So we would not be, I wouldnot, I would personally be
against and I would say my word.
Against that, those requests by Russiaon innocent people, you know, you will
have to check some carefully before youannounce an international search for them,
you know, from, so this kind of things.
And we were working together withour American colleagues there
(40:21):
and other colleagues and myself.
So this was a second, I think,yeah, iteration of my war with them.
And third one was.
Uh, on radar station, let's just,I think this is my personal victory
because I was discussing this.
Yeah.
Because this is, I was talking withmy us visa V, how to make Russians
(40:43):
peaceful or leave that place.
And we succeeded.
I mean, they, at some point left.
And after that I went to California, youknow, to relax near the Pacific ocean.
No, I'm kidding, but I was at the school,but still, it's a great, great place.
Mine.
Condo was like two blocksaway from the Pacific.
Oh my gosh.
I'm jealous.
Yeah.
(41:03):
Yeah.
So, um, that's how it went.
And then, then Ukraine.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
So earlier you mentioned youmentioned earlier, all of your
favorite things are in Kiev now,including your favorite vehicle.
Do you have, what, what is that?
What is your favorite vehicle?
Are you a car guy or no?
(41:24):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
It's a Porsche 911.
I love that car.
So how do you make sure nothing hits that?
I mean, in a war zone, it's like yougot to protect it's closely concealed
covered in my garage outside Kiev.
I don't know.
Okay.
And then it's winter time.
Yeah.
(41:45):
Um, Tamerlan, just as we wrapup here, um, for people who are
listening, mainly a us audience.
What would you ask of them or wantthem to know about what's going on
that they might not see as clearly?
Um, if they have the opportunity, um, justpray for, uh, civilians for no matter who
(42:06):
they are, Christian, uh, Judaism, Islam,you know, whatever Buddhism, whatever,
uh, face they have or they don't have, uh,it doesn't matter, but just to pray and
think about those children and elderly.
And handicapped people that arein Ukraine and our brave soldiers
(42:27):
that lost their arms and legs andfamilies that are without their
sons and daughters pray for us.
And if they have any opportunity to helpthem, um, financially, or it was good,
just, just find the words to do it.
Um, this is good.
This is good.
Um, like as a, as a moral dutyof any person anywhere in the
world, actually, whereas the waris, but including the Ukraine.
(42:50):
So especially with that, just bewith us, uh, morally because we are
fighting for our common security.
And, and we'll do that.
Thank you so much for the time, Cameron.
This has been a blast.
Um, I hope we get to meet againand I hope we see you, you
somewhere in the government.
Uh, not too, not too far into the future.
(43:11):
The most important thing is to win and,uh, to finish and stop people from dying.
But thank you for, for this.
It was awesome talking to you.
Okay, and let's stop again.
Thanks so much, Tamlin.
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Thanks for listening to this combat story.
I was in, uh, in Kiev whenRussians invaded Ukraine.
And that was, that was quite an experiencebecause there were a lot of rumors.
People kept calling me and mycolleagues and other police and
military personnel that, okay,beware that there could be a landing.
There've been airborne divisionsof Russia landing nearby.
My girlfriend was pregnant at home.
(00:23):
Just, she said, youknow what, time to run.
Get the hell out of homeand go defend your country.
It's like, wow.
And seeing like people walkingaround with machine guns and
chance and challenge, that wasquite a shocking experience there.
Welcome to Combat Story.
I'm Ryan Fugit and I served WarzoneTours as an Army Attack Helicopter Pilot
and CIA Officer over a 15 year career.
(00:45):
I'm fascinated by the experiencesof the elite in combat.
On this show, I interview some ofthe best to understand what combat
felt like on their front lines.
Peace.
is combat story.
Tamerlan, thanks so much for taking thetime to share your story with us today.
Thanks, Ryan.
Hi, everyone.
Yeah.
So you're in a very scenic location,which we'll get to in just a moment.
(01:08):
For those who can't see you, uh,who are just listening, you've got a
very cool backdrop, but very quicklyfor people who don't know Tamerlan
Vahabov, former advisor to the directorof defense procurement, ministry
of defense in Ukraine, also head ofthe reform office and advisor to the
minister of interior internal affairsin Ukraine, been in government law
enforcement in a variety of places.
(01:28):
Very close to my heart.
You studied at Georgetown.
Thank you very much.
Right around the same time.
I did spend time at Navalpostgraduate school and obviously
two degrees in Azerbaijan.
Lots to cover.
Want to make sure we get there, butwe're three years in to the war with
Russia invading Ukraine here thatFebruary of 2025, you are really
(01:50):
an expert when it comes to defenseprocurement, weapons, military, and
we'll talk about what's going on, ofcourse, and some of your background, but.
Just curious, where were you whenyou found the news that Russia
was invading three years ago?
Well, Ryan, thank you very much for theintroduction and I'm happy to be here
on this platform and wishing you furthersuccess in making this a popular platform.
(02:12):
I'm sure it is.
So as for your question, Uh, well, I wasinvited to Ukraine back to Ukraine because
I had lived there before for severalyears, but I was holding a government
position in Azerbaijan in August 2021, andan unexpected call from the minister, the
(02:32):
newly appointed Team moves the ministerof interior of the plane and come here.
Let's discuss your, Imean, job opportunities.
So it was like people, somepeople knew me, they recommended,
they called me and said, like,well, yeah, okay, let's do that.
And it's a long, long story short.
I went to Kiev and accepted theoffer to become an advisor and to
(02:54):
the minister and head of the reformoffice responsible for security sector,
National Guard, Border Troops, etc.
And it was September, October2021, right before, several
months before the invasion.
So obviously when Russiansinvaded Ukraine and came to Kiev.
I was in, uh, in Kiev, in Ukraine.
(03:16):
And that was, that was quite an experiencebecause, I mean, although I have a
military background and I've been to warzones before, but That was something,
you know, because I love Kiev, it's my,I would say, favorite city in the world.
I can definitely say that and seeinglike people walking around with machine
guns and tanks and shellings, thatwas quite a shocking experience there.
(03:40):
And what we did, the first thing we did,we spent time at the, as an advisor to
the minister, we went straight to the,uh, Kiev, Sydney police department.
And we started forming volunteer, uh,like, uh, small units of volunteers
and we were arming them with,yeah, that was quite an experience.
(04:05):
And at that night, exactly.
What's going to, what's going to come,what is coming, you know, there were
a lot of rumors, people kept callingme and my colleagues and other police
and military personnel that, okay, beaware that there could be a landing
that could be an airborne divisionsof Russia landing nearby, but we
were prepared to fight basically,and we spent the entire night there.
(04:29):
And then, but like, well, that's apersonal story, but my girlfriend was
pregnant at home and imagine that in KLand it's showing everywhere, we can hear
this and there we were just, she said, youknow what, time to run, just get the hell
out of home and go defend your country.
It's like, wow, that's,that's what she said.
(04:51):
So that's what I did.
And, um.
Oh, that was my first encounter directly.
What an amazing story.
And you've got a very interestingbackground, Tamerlan, with, with law
enforcement, um, the military side.
Can you share just a littlebit, how did you get into
these different roles earlier?
(05:12):
Oh, well, well, I mean, it's, it's,I have a long career actually in
both government and private sector,but when it comes to law enforcement
and military, I started as a cadet.
And the Academy of the Ministryof Internal Affairs of Azerbaijan.
And I lived in barracks for fouryears in uniform, etc. It was like a
military academy that would producepolice officers and National Guard
(05:34):
officers, which is a military, um, unit.
I mean, it used to be calledinternal troops in the Soviet Union.
So now in Ukraine, this is National Guard.
So it's like semimilitary law enforcement.
Um, like unit.
So after graduation, I worked foralmost three years at the Drug
Enforcement Department of Azerbaijanof the Minister of Interior.
(05:58):
I was responsible for the UNDP UnitedNations Development Program and
Azerbaijani Ministry of Interior Affairs.
Affairs, um, project, uh, of,uh, drug enforcement project
in the, uh, South Caucasus.
So that was my role.
And after that, I, I, I got ajob, uh, with Interpol's general
secretary and France Lyon,and, um, I spent 2005 and six.
(06:23):
There, uh, I was the co chiefand co coordinator, let's say, of
the anti terrorism project there.
I was responsible for former Soviet Union,including Ukraine, Russia, Chechnya,
and South Asia, Pakistan, Afghanistan,Central Asia, dealing with Islamic,
like, like violent manifestationsof, um, like Islamic radicalization,
(06:44):
uh, terrorist organizations.
Their links was different areas forfinancing, let's say, even up to.
Triple frontera is like tie borderarea, Latin America, because I
mean, I speak Spanish and I wasalso responsible for that part.
So that's why that was quite afascinating story, let's say.
(07:05):
And after that, I went back toAzerbaijan to work for one year as
a minister of foreign affairs, soAzerbaijan was responsible for the U.
S. Relationship back there.
I was partially coveringthe security as well.
I was actually inside the team that wasresponsible for driving the Russians out
of Azerbaijan was their radar station.
If you remember in 2007, the United Stateshad plans to deploy a missile defense
(07:29):
system, meaning Poland and Czech Republicand put it back then that was George W.
Bush.
Um, to jointly use as a Bajani radarstation that is in Azerbaijan, the Soviet
one, we didn't want it and as Azerbaijan,and so didn't the U S so I was together
with my minister negotiating with theU S side, how to kick the Russians out.
(07:52):
That's, it's a common theme.
Yeah.
Yes.
And we, we did it.
We, we succeeded.
They left because we increased the rent.
We tripled it.
. Yeah.
It's all about money.
Yeah.
That was, yes, that was the area.
And Russians asked us,okay, you know what?
You know if you do that?
Okay, let us tell that yourradar station is crappy.
At least let us face, save our face.
(08:13):
This like, okay, just leave.
Say whatever you want.
Wow.
That was a little bit funny, butthat was my experience there.
And back after that, I went to the UnitedStates, studied at the Naval post crisis
school, got my master of science degreein guerrilla warfare, defense analysis.
Then Georgetown masters.
I lived there for severalyears, almost five years.
And then I had my, I was an entrepreneurfor 10 years in the fast sector,
(08:37):
education and information technologies,mostly serving, uh, I was a government
contractor for several countries.
And after that, I went back again toAzerbaijan, uh, to work as a deputy
director for small and medium sizedenterprise development for two years.
Then I was head of theUnited transit operator.
It's a state owned company inAzerbaijan, responsible for all
(09:00):
the transit of goods in Azerbaijan.
It was like an anti corruption move,given my security background, because
I, my main task was to identify all theorganized crime and corrupt, let's say,
um, schemes and models used in the regiontogether with Georgian counterparts.
So we did it.
A lot of people got fired.
And after that, I got an invitationto Ukraine to reform the After
(09:24):
that, unfortunately, our ministerdied in a helicopter crash.
Minister Monastirsky, if youremember, like two years ago.
So, and then I was invited toUkroboronprom, it's Ukrainian government.
I worked for two years as an advisor tothe director of Fukuroboron service, it's
like largest special exporter responsiblefor supply and production and, uh,
(09:47):
ammunition supply production, et cetera.
That's what I did.
I have a lot of storiesto tell about that also.
My last job was with theminister of defense of Ukraine.
I was an advisor to thedefense procurement agency.
So here it is.
That's great.
Um, and so it sounds like youare from Azerbaijan, not Ukraine.
Is that right?
Original?
(10:07):
Yes.
Yes.
But it, does Ukraine feel like you'redefending your home country on this?
Of course.
Yeah.
Of course.
I mean, um, my, uh, let's say,uh, everything first happened to
me in Ukraine, a lot of things.
My kids were born there.
Um, and, um, my daughter is halfUkrainian and I've lived in Kyiv
(10:29):
since 2010 and my, everything is here.
My family, my.
Residents, my house, my favoritecar, everything is here.
So I'm, I'm based here.
It is my home.
So of course, and still go from time totime to places close to the frontline.
Of course, I do not engage in combatbecause I don't have authority for that.
(10:52):
But, um, yeah, of course I'm doingeverything I can for Ukraine.
And we'll talk more about whatthe front lines look like.
You are, you're in Istanbul now.
On a work trip, justfor people's awareness.
Can you kind of share?
Like, what is the kindof work you're doing now?
Um, since you're not in thatadvisory capacity any longer, you're
(11:12):
still fighting this war, right?
Yeah.
Well, um, I do several things.
I do scientific work right nowbecause I'm working on, um, a
few, uh, scientific, let's sayresearch areas related to the war.
That's one thing.
And the second thing that I'mstill, uh, trying to coordinate.
Supplies of ammunition, especially partsand components of artillery shells,
(11:35):
mortar bombs, like TNT, RDFs, fuses,uh, increment charges, um, propellant
charges, powder, because this is like abig deficit all across Europe and Ukraine,
so I'm helping to open new supply channelsto Ukraine, so our, um, let's say state
owned companies in Ukraine and Ukraine.
Europe did not stop.
So it's one of my major tasks.
(11:57):
I'm also partially helping theCzech initiative for ammunition.
I'm in touch with our Czech colleaguesat the Ministry of Defense on both.
So I'm like, I'm in the game,but right now I took a pause.
To deal with all these issues and alsocomplete my research, and then I will
probably go back to the government.
Interesting.
(12:18):
So when you and I were coordinatingthis interview, we talked briefly
about just a few days ago.
There was an attack.
I think.
Certainly on Ukraine, I think onKiev with maybe 260 drones that
came over for many of us Americans.
We, we know drones like thereapers from our wars in Iraq and
(12:39):
Afghanistan and now we see DJI drones.
What are these drones actually like whenyou're sitting in Kiev and you see 260
come across, what do they look like?
What are the sizes, capabilities?
It's evolving quickly.
Well, if you're talking like aboutUAVs, drones specifically, um,
this is mostly, um, drones that aremade based on the Iranian Shahids.
(13:03):
Uh, this is a fixed wing drone, uh,with an internal combustion engine.
Most of them, they're gettingquieter, but you can still hear them.
This is a, quite a fascinating story.
He makes like, I mean, it's tragic andfascinating at the same time, because
you know, that they are coming andbringing this, you know, and destruction.
(13:23):
And there are a lot of them.
And sometimes you can just be sleepingand you hear this engine noise, it reminds
you a moped, you know, a small motorcycleflying over your house, you know, and
that, then you identify there, this is it.
And then boom, you can, if you're nearby,it can hit something, I don't know, some
(13:47):
building or our glorious, I would say,uh, air defense people shoot them down.
They do a great job.
I mean, we are extremely gratefulbecause they are saving our lives
of civilians, of children andelderly and civilian infrastructure.
But this is, I mean, I wouldsay for most people, it's scary.
(14:08):
I'm a military person.
I mean, I wouldn't say I'm not scared,but I mean, I'm used to, I'm expecting
that, but a lot of people do not want toaccept this reality and they're right.
They're civilians.
So this is, this is, this is quite,quite dangerous because even if the
air defense system, uh, destroysthe drone, it's parts can fall on
your house or on you, which happens.
(14:30):
So this is.
Uh, and they are, um, they're bringinga payload quite quite an impressive
payload and also our drones are cheap,you know, relatively that can make
a lot of them and they increase thenumber of this is, this is the thing I
mean, they are hitting the right recordlately, like last two, three weeks.
(14:51):
It's 100, 200, 300 tons a night
and that's making it to Kiev.
Not all of them, of course, some of them.
Yes.
I mean, Kiev, Kiev region, uh, yeah.
But most of them fly to Kiev to Odessa,to other places, urban settlements, as
(15:14):
if they are targeting some Centers ofdecision making, as they say, yeah, are
the, are these mainly, um, controlled byone individual or is there any autonomous
capability in these now of human for UAVs?
Yeah, if you're talking to specificallyabout the UAVs, uh, well, this
(15:35):
is like a deep strike, right?
They don't have any, um, let'ssay smart capabilities on them.
So you have coordinates.
It's an inertial navigation and theyare sent there, but they have quite
an agile system to fly and avoid areaswhere electronic warfare is active.
So, I mean, if you put it simply, soeveryone understands, so this is how
(15:59):
it works, but it is quite efficient,uh, from their point of view, uh, to
bring, let's say, um, destruction.
To our civilian infrastructure, whichis, I don't understand what's the point
because this unites Ukrainian people evenmore against Russians, you know, the more
they strike them, the more we are reunitedwhen it backfires at some, but yes, it
(16:22):
destroys things, but people die, but thisis not affecting the course of the war.
I don't know why they're doing it.
Yeah.
I know, but this is backfiring.
But no, I mean, they do not haveany like smart technologies on them.
Like that is some sort of extraordinary,you know, It, um, you know, it just
(16:44):
occurs to me as we look at the warand you've been following it so
closely, you've written just somegreat articles in, um, global papers
about some of the challenges that theUkrainian defense industry is facing.
So I'm curious to get yourtake on where that stands now.
And what do you think is going tohappen in the next two to three
(17:05):
months with Ukraine and Russia,with the way things are moving?
Well, when it comes to thechallenges, A lot of challenges in
the Ukrainian defense, um, industryand defense procurement generally.
Uh, when it comes to, uh, the systemitself, the major problem is the
collection and analysis of theneeds for the Ukrainian army by the
(17:28):
headquarters of the army headquarters.
Uh, it has to be a quicker, moredynamic, more efficient, more
precise, uh, still problems.
I mean, I will not beable to share everything.
It's a sensitive information, butoverall, uh, these are the problems.
And then another problem is withthe minister of defense itself.
(17:48):
Well, when it comes to the procurementside of it, because the procurement
depends on the needs analysis andassessment that need to precisely reflect.
The frontline needs that is not always thecase in the, in Ukraine's case, and when
it goes to the DPA defense procurementagency and it's regulating bodies,
department departments that are abovethat there again, um, there are problems
(18:11):
with identifying those, uh, goods thatare needed for the army, like weapons,
ammunition, et cetera, because there'sa global deficit of, um, ammunition,
generally mortar bombs, artillery shells,how it serves and their components.
So, uh, you have to really know the marketvery well to identify the rough suppliers.
(18:32):
And so you don't go to intermediaries.
If you don't know that there are alot of middlemen that, or is it just
sorry for my friendship, Crooks.
Yeah, you know, come and take moneyand then disappear, or it's like
a triple the price, then a lot of,uh, non deliveries delays, which
affects the front line, of course.
(18:53):
So you really have to bea professional on that.
And the third thing is UAVs UAV.
Yes.
We have great companies in Ukrainethat can do an amazing job.
They have, they're very agile andthey have almost all types of drones,
but the problem is we do not have.
Or joint unmanned systems architecture,which in my opinion is important
(19:14):
because you have it in the UnitedStates, I think it was designed
by RAND Corporation in the 90s.
It's like an interoperabilityplatform on a physical and logical
level for all unmanned systems.
If you don't have that, it affectsyour, um, war tactics because, uh, you
don't know how to deploy them togetherand how they will speak to each other,
(19:34):
let's say, and if their spare parts are.
Uh, interchangeable on a logical andphysical level, if you don't have that,
your assets are, uh, are, let's say,spread out and they are, um, not as, um,
they don't have this cumulative effect.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's in the work, like whenit comes to procurement, that's
another problem because defenseprocurement agency cannot communicate
(19:56):
it to investors and to businesseswho produce them what is needed.
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So this, this creates arisk for corruption because
you need to go to units.
(21:20):
Ask them they tell you something, whichyou're not sure if it's true that they
needed, you know, if they need it.
Yes, I need this and you invest1, 000, 002 million euros.
Let's say dollars.
And then the headquarterssays, okay, we don't need that.
Yeah, you're bankrupt, you know,this is and in order to get
this information, there is a redtape and also a lot of lobbying.
(21:42):
Sort of the entire chain to understandwhat is really needed, what, what,
so not every company has thiscapability to get inside and know this.
And sometimes it is associatedwith fortunately corruption and
lobbying or friendships or whatever.
I mean, these are the risks.
I'm not saying that it's always like that.
It's real.
Yeah.
This, this creates a risk.
(22:03):
That's why our drone, um, industry isnot as sustainable as it could have been.
That's why we cannot.
get to the level of parity with Russians.
Let's say they strike200 drones per night.
We cannot do the same.
Why?
Because of this, you know, how do youovercome the, the global deficit for
some of these munitions and capabilities?
(22:25):
It is important to reach out to countries.
Which are not under us sanctions,but they have these capabilities
and start buying it from them.
If we are talking about firefightingright now, I mean, of course, of course,
ideally, uh, we would need to investmore, all the allies of Ukraine and NATO
into, uh, the, uh, propellant charges,uh, powder, DMT, RDX, fuses, et cetera.
(22:53):
But I think it's not timely right now.
It's very capital intensive.
But right now we need professionalsat the minister of defense of Ukraine,
procurement, it's management to goout and find, and I don't identify
those like companies, uh, whereyou can buy those, um, things.
So because otherwise, because allthe European and American factors,
(23:17):
most of them are depleted oroverbooked over the coming years.
Um, we are in a very difficult situation.
It's a deadlock almost, but we cando maximum to squeeze out everything
from, uh, uh, what we have right now.
Global is.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it's not just, I mean, someof these places can't produce anymore,
(23:40):
but even if they could, there'sthis idea of, are they producing
the thing that you actually needon the front lines or that has the.
The longer term capabilityand interoperability.
Okay.
That's interesting.
That's right.
And this is actually the advancesRussia has over us because
they can buy it from Iran.
They can buy it from North Korea.
I don't know if they'rebuying it from China or not.
I will not be claiming that,but I'm sure that North Korea is
(24:04):
selling them a lot of stuff, right?
So we also need to identify ourcountries that are not on the sanctions
that are legitimate and so we canwork with them outside of Europe.
I mean, then.
And there are some of them, butunfortunately in Ukraine and defense
sector, this, um, uh, the lack ofprofessionals and sometimes corruption,
(24:25):
uh, hindered this, which is not a secret.
It was on me on the media recently,the first deputy minister of defense,
Ivan Havryluk, general Havryluk,he admitted this and he said there
were problems with professionals andwith non deliverers because of that.
That's why he removed, they removed thechief of the defense procurement agency
and the deputy minister responsible for.
(24:48):
I also don't want to paint a picturelike America is great at this.
I mean, we have experience withthe procurement process, but
we always want it to be faster.
I have been on the tactical sideand not gotten what I needed
from a deep investment in funds.
Um, we have our own corruption,but you're dealing with it on,
on another scale right now.
It's crazy.
Of course.
(25:09):
How do you see.
How do you see, um, the next two to threemonths playing out with what, what's
going on now on the ground and at thestrategic level with Ukraine and Russia?
I think a lot depends on Ukraine as wellhere because Ukraine is at the war and
it is suffering this Russian aggression.
Of course.
Um, I think it is important forUnited States and Ukraine start
(25:34):
talking, start talking seriously.
It is very difficult to forecast anythingright now, uh, what's going to happen, but
I'm anticipating this talks on a technicaland professional level between, uh, Trump
and Zelensky administration, first ofall, and see what, what is the outcome?
Because I think it's tooearly to make any predictions.
(25:54):
If the deal is, is going through, whichis, which looks like it's going through,
um, they deal on a rarest materials.
And U. S. would be, will have a vestedinterest in Ukraine and Ukraine will get
its share from that, uh, deal also, liketype of production share agreement type.
Can you explain what that deallooks like just at a high level for
(26:16):
people who might not be familiar?
Sure.
Sure.
Um, well, President Trump,uh, offered this deal, uh, to
explore and, and extract, uh,Ukraine's rare earth materials.
Or aluminum, et cetera, titanium.
It is needed for production ofvarious products for defense
industry, it, and I don't know,batteries, et cetera, et cetera.
(26:37):
I'm not an expert on that, but I'm juston a, but this is what Ukraine has.
It's, it has a rich soil and it, it is.
Positioned by the Trump administrationby white and by the White House as their
payback for the all the internationalassistance that came from the United
States to Ukraine and at the beginning,the, uh, the demand was much higher,
(26:59):
but it looks like like 500 billionrepay from Ukraine in the form of those
materials and the revenues from it.
But now, as I understand, because thereare I mean, the details are not yet fully
disclosed, it is disclosed, but I can tellyou that, uh, there, there, there will
be a font, a joint font set up between,uh, Ukraine and the United States.
(27:23):
Uh, that will, let's say, gather alltheir revenues and the United States
will have a stake there, Ukraine willhave a stake there, and the United States
will be, uh, taking back its, let'ssay, uh, returning its investment into
Ukraine, if it's, if it makes sense.
So this way, uh, Ukraine will also getits revenue share there, smaller, maybe at
the beginning, and then it might increase.
(27:43):
I think I would do this.
I would definitely increaseUkraine's share later.
Um, uh, at the same time, um.
It's for Ukraine.
It is interesting because it willbring in technologies, expertise,
jobs, and also having the U.
S. investment in Ukraine will, uh,somehow secure it militarily from
(28:06):
like direct attacks, possibly.
But the only thing that is still missingin this deal is a specific security
guarantees to Ukraine, which is, whichis, which worries me, honestly speaking.
It's not there yet, but Ithink that has to be there.
So if it is weaker than Budapestmemorandum of 1994, I was signed by
leading like nuclear powers for, todisarm Ukraine from Soviet stockpile.
(28:31):
Well, it didn't work unfortunately.
So I hope they will come to, to anagreement on like specific mechanism for
security guarantees, which is missing.
That's on a, in a nutshell,on a strategic level, this is
how it looks like right now.
But let's see, becauseI need to go and talk.
Yeah.
(28:51):
With, with your high profile, the kindof strategic roles you've been in and,
um, you know, public facing image, doyou have to be careful just about your
security as you travel your family?
Um, just in general, I'm sure youmeet some very interesting people
in these different, in thesedifferent occupations you've had.
(29:11):
Oh, yeah, it is.
It is dangerous.
I mean, I honestly speaking, Ihaven't had any direct like threats.
Yeah.
But, um, I could hear like from here andthere how, uh, various actors in those
countries where I go for what I wouldneed in Ukraine, military goods, uh, there
(29:33):
are some warnings, you know, why thisguy was here, you know, that he's like.
doing the job for Ukraine and he startedin the United States, you know, this kind
of things, of course, uh, make, make mecautious, but that's why, but you know,
this is my job is what my education is.
My profile is, I knew.
(29:53):
What I'm doing , where I'm goinginto, you know, security sector.
I'm sure you also know this.
So, I mean, there are a lotof crazy stories about that.
But yeah, I think one of thedifferences though is my family wasn't
always like right on the front lineswith me the way they are with you.
I mean, you've got a veryreal concern there for sure.
My, uh, yeah, fortunatelymy daughter studies in, in
(30:14):
Europe, in the European Union.
Um, Tamerlane, can you take us throughmaybe, uh, just one experience that
really stands out with some interestingcharacters you may have rubbed
shoulders with, had meetings with in,uh, some of these roles you've had?
(30:35):
Yeah, sure.
Um, I mean, there aremany of them, of course.
Um, when I was with the Ukrainiangovernment, uh, like recently was this
war, say, um, There were several hundreds,hundreds of pieces of American machinery,
like military machines, combat vehicles.
(30:57):
Uh, yeah.
Okay.
I will name it.
It's Paladin 109.
And it's, you know, and it's anAmerican made grain machines.
Uh, it's one five, five millimeter selfpropelled artillery systems for our Um,
uh, viewers to understand what it is,and of course we need how it's, there's
always both thousand and those, uh, andno one would able to go into that country.
(31:20):
It's a small country in the MiddleEast and a lot of people in Ukraine and
all over, we're talking about, okay,we need to get those cars, you know,
those vehicles, we will pay for it.
Of course, I mean, and it waslike a very expensive deal,
but that's for the government.
They're like, we're talkingabout several hundreds of those.
And I was like, okay, let me try, becauseI know some people there and I'm not
(31:42):
going, you will not be able to do that.
And we can, uh, several people went there.
They just had some whiskey and cameback and no one showed them anything.
I said, okay, let me try.
And I took one of my colleagues andwe flew just to the Middle East.
And it's like, okay, I made somephone calls in advance, of course.
And people came, I said,like, okay, what do you need?
I said, listen to that.
It's all good.
No problem.
(32:03):
But don't tell them where youcome from and just tell us, tell
them that you work for, I don'tknow, some local defense company.
I said, okay.
And don't say that you'refrom Ukraine, basically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
And don't show anything.
And they say, okay,don't wear a put on this.
It's a military style, you know,forum, like type of things, you
(32:24):
know, and we went there and.
They showed us the Eldoradoof weapons and ammunition, of
rockets, of vehicles, everything.
I was like, damn, if you buy these,we can win several Ukrainian wars.
I was shocked.
I was like, okay, here's our keys.
You can drive in a car.
Wait a second.
(32:44):
I'm not like any driver or something.
I can do it, but you do it.
Show me it works.
Yeah.
We did the inspection.
I said like, okay, how dowe get this out from here?
That was another challenge 'causeUkraine warned me that you cannot get
the export license from that country.
Okay.
I was like, well, I said like,yeah, well, the military guy said,
(33:04):
okay, this, this, this is, okay.
This is, um, a military official militarybase, which, which was, it was guarded.
Of course, everyone is a military and so,but those are owned by a private company.
It's like, which privatecompany, that one.
So, and it popped up in my memory thatI know the guy who owns this company.
And I called him as well.
And then this guy cametogether with the military.
(33:27):
We sat down.
I was like, okay, yeah, here's apaper of ownership, everything.
And military confirms it.
It's like, and my colleagues gets moreand more shocked from Ukraine as we go.
I'm like, okay, I'm a musician sometimes.
And, and then it's like, okay,um, there is a third problem.
United States has to givethe authorization for that.
(33:48):
Third party transferauthorization, TPT certificate.
It's like, okay, wait a second.
Make another call to my classmatefrom one of those universities.
He was in a position and heconnects me with a local guy.
Yeah, he made a few calls andin one or two days, it's okay.
(34:13):
We are ready to provide you with this.
I'm like, that was like quite anexperience and no one knew who we
are, but we solved the problem at thatlevel, you know, three actors, the
government of that country, the company,and, Which I apparently knew, and then
(34:33):
my, um, well, classmates helped me.
Yeah, so much to do with relationships.
Yeah, these people, you know, huge cheese.
If younger people listen to us,I think they should know this.
I mean, this is important.
Another thing is related tomy previous, previous job.
Long time ago, one of my bosses,it was, he's still active duty.
(34:54):
He's a general and a lot of peoplewere accusing him, you know, like.
Oh, yeah.
You know, you torture people.
It's like, well, he was not actually,but he was ready to meet, you know, and
one of the Western company countriesasked for a meeting and I was there
and this guy didn't speak English.
So can you help?
(35:15):
I was a young guy, you know,I was like, can you translate?
Uh, you know, no problem.
I came in to translate and thensaid, like, I will make some, some
jokes, but don't take it seriously.
Don't laugh.
It's like, okay.
And then these people from the Westerncountry came to look, Oh yeah, you
know, Mr. General, whatever, thank youfor finding time to meet us, et cetera.
(35:36):
And this guy comes, he's a big guy,you know, like six, three or four,
um, like he's like rubbing his hands.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm really busy.
Actually.
I just came back from torturingpeople, you know, Yeah.
How'd that go over?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How did that go over with the crowd?
Yeah, I'm sure they were, theywere like, the jaws dropped.
(35:58):
It's like, and then he's like, okay,tell them, tell them stretch out.
Yeah.
It's a joke.
And he was, he sat down withthem and he relaxed and he
said like, don't worry guys.
I mean, I will prove you that I'mnot, I'm not as bad as you think I am.
And yeah, they went over a lot of things.
They got convinced and they loved him.
They became friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's great.
But that joy.
(36:18):
That's awesome.
But that was, I was, I was laughinglike, so I love stories like that.
Yeah.
Tamerlan, what, um, what do you seeyourself doing in the next year or two?
You still live, you're justliving in Ukraine, fighting this
war, supporting somehow, findingyour way into government again.
(36:40):
Absolutely.
I'm committed to Ukraine.
Um, I'm, I'm doing everything here.
I mean, I, let's say right now, I, Idon't, do not stop my war against Russia
because my war started a long time ago,even when I was in, as was in Azer, Bajan.
Um, a lot of things.
I can talk about it later.
Yeah.
But right in, in the next one or twoyears, of course, uh, I'm planning
(37:01):
to go back to the government.
At some point, and, um, right nowI'm doing everything in my capacity,
whatever I can, because my hands arefree without the government title.
So that's why I can, um, uh, travel anddo, I do everything at my own expense.
So I don't get any money for that.
It's just a volunteer work,let's say, but that's what I do.
(37:25):
And yeah, in one or twoyears time, I might go back.
Yeah.
Can you tell us where didyour, Oh, no, go ahead.
Keep going.
Nope.
Yeah.
I mean, I never asked for a position, youknow, it, it all came, uh, unexpectedly.
So I'm sure that atsome point, uh, things.
And this situation will be suchthat I will need to go back
(37:48):
and help in different capacity.
Yeah, please go ahead.
I was going to ask, please tell uswhere did your fight with Russia
start that you just alluded to?
Yeah, it started, uh, back in Azerbaijanat the minister of internal affairs
when I was responsible for, um,the drug enforcement in the South
(38:08):
Caucasus, uh, Georgia and Azerbaijan.
Our allies and we were working togetheras part of the U. N. D. P. United
Nations development project and U.N. O. D. C. which is based in Vienna.
It is United Nations officeon drugs and organized crime.
A lot of resolutions that we werefighting with Russians to condemn, um.
(38:30):
drugs trafficking, human beings,trafficking, and other dangerous
materials and radiological materialstrafficking through occupied territories
of former Soviet Union, let's sayTransnistria, Ossetia, Abkhazia,
Nagorno Karabakh, et cetera, et cetera.
So that was our goal to preventit because that's an uncontrolled
illegitimate regimes are there justsimilar to what's going on now in Ukraine.
(38:55):
So, um, Russians of course, did notwant to support those very solutions.
I suspect that they hadsome interest in that.
I cannot prove that, but,uh, to our knowledge.
That was the case and they were, theywere fighting us fiercely and it was like
a, uh, normative and legal battlefield.
Let's say over the table.
(39:17):
So I know I was, I was, I was ayoung officer and it was difficult
for me because this kind of.
battlefield, let's say diplomatic.
Yeah.
It's tough to withstandstuff to restrain yourself.
You really have to be very coldblooded professional, careful
for every comma and dot there.
Yeah.
(39:37):
This is, this is how it started.
Then it continued when I was atInterpol General Secretariat, of
course, I could see what they'redoing with, um, Chechnya problem.
And of course there were alot of human rights violations
in among civilian Chechens.
Not all Chechens areterrorists or separatists.
It's a people of 1.
5 million, I guess, as far as I remember.
(40:00):
So we would not be, I wouldnot, I would personally be
against and I would say my word.
Against that, those requests by Russiaon innocent people, you know, you will
have to check some carefully before youannounce an international search for them,
you know, from, so this kind of things.
And we were working together withour American colleagues there
(40:21):
and other colleagues and myself.
So this was a second, I think,yeah, iteration of my war with them.
And third one was.
Uh, on radar station, let's just,I think this is my personal victory
because I was discussing this.
Yeah.
Because this is, I was talking withmy us visa V, how to make Russians
(40:43):
peaceful or leave that place.
And we succeeded.
I mean, they, at some point left.
And after that I went to California, youknow, to relax near the Pacific ocean.
No, I'm kidding, but I was at the school,but still, it's a great, great place.
Mine.
Condo was like two blocksaway from the Pacific.
Oh my gosh.
I'm jealous.
Yeah.
(41:03):
Yeah.
So, um, that's how it went.
And then, then Ukraine.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
So earlier you mentioned youmentioned earlier, all of your
favorite things are in Kiev now,including your favorite vehicle.
Do you have, what, what is that?
What is your favorite vehicle?
Are you a car guy or no?
(41:24):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
It's a Porsche 911.
I love that car.
So how do you make sure nothing hits that?
I mean, in a war zone, it's like yougot to protect it's closely concealed
covered in my garage outside Kiev.
I don't know.
Okay.
And then it's winter time.
Yeah.
(41:45):
Um, Tamerlan, just as we wrapup here, um, for people who are
listening, mainly a us audience.
What would you ask of them or wantthem to know about what's going on
that they might not see as clearly?
Um, if they have the opportunity, um, justpray for, uh, civilians for no matter who
(42:06):
they are, Christian, uh, Judaism, Islam,you know, whatever Buddhism, whatever,
uh, face they have or they don't have, uh,it doesn't matter, but just to pray and
think about those children and elderly.
And handicapped people that arein Ukraine and our brave soldiers
(42:27):
that lost their arms and legs andfamilies that are without their
sons and daughters pray for us.
And if they have any opportunity to helpthem, um, financially, or it was good,
just, just find the words to do it.
Um, this is good.
This is good.
Um, like as a, as a moral dutyof any person anywhere in the
world, actually, whereas the waris, but including the Ukraine.
(42:50):
So especially with that, just bewith us, uh, morally because we are
fighting for our common security.
And, and we'll do that.
Thank you so much for the time, Cameron.
This has been a blast.
Um, I hope we get to meet againand I hope we see you, you
somewhere in the government.
Uh, not too, not too far into the future.
(43:11):
The most important thing is to win and,uh, to finish and stop people from dying.
But thank you for, for this.
It was awesome talking to you.
Okay, and let's stop again.
Thanks so much, Tamlin.
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