Episode 240 | Maxine Williams - Corie Sheppard Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
How are you, ma'am?
Good thank you.
I'm taking a last look at mynotes here.
I've lent you notes.
Oh, you are lucky to be inTrinidad.
This is a real coincidence,right?
Yes, Was this vacation, youknow I came for the AmCham
conference.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
It was a tech conference, so I gave a keynote
there and did a panel all aboutAI.
Oh, that went Very good, verygood, oh, that went.
Very good, very good, yeah, fullroom.
You know a lot of CEOs, somestartup people, technocrats,
just people interested in how weleverage AI to do more in the
region, and you know what theconcerns are and how you do the
better.
Gotcha.

(00:47):
I always wonder, when we say AIand when you hear AI, if we're
hearing the same things.
You know, I think we arehearing the same things.
We're talking about technologywhich is more intelligent than
we have seen before and, at thisstage, we're talking about
technology which can understandnatural language and look at
images and audio in context andproduce things.
So generative AI.
Right, there's different forms.
I think we're talking about thesame thing.
What people seem to be thinkingabout here is how we use it.

(01:10):
Do we have the skills to evenapply it?
What would be the situations inwhich we would do that?
What do you guard against?
So it's new, it's early days,but moving very, very rapidly.
So there was also a concern arewe're going to be left behind?

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Of course, I remember one of the discussions being
will human employment be a thingstill?
You remember them days.
Well, that's still a discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
And proponents would say no, it's going to augment,
and that was a theme yesterdayin the conference as well.
It will augment humanproductivity.
You can now focus on higherlevel things and not do
repetitive tasks that the AIcould do for you.
But there are still some peoplewho are concerned.
It will make change.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, of course that is for sure We've seen it right.
Yes, yes.
Like.
One of my examples is and I'mnot moving near the leading edge
of technology or anything butthe podcast host that I use
creates a transcript for everyepisode it says what was most
impressed by at the time was howit understood our accents.

(02:13):
I always feel as thoughsometimes our accent couldn't
get left out of these things,but it's pretty accurate.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well.
So that depends on what it istrained on.
For instance, we have an opensource AI model called Lama.
Right.
And we've done two things in ourtraining One in relation to
what you're talking about, withaccents and language, et cetera.
One is called CasualConversations, where we went out
and took video data from peopleacross many different countries

(02:41):
, across many differentcharacteristics, looking at
different skin tone, differentyes language, different genders,
different disabilities, evenbodily adornments.
You have tattoos and trainingthe models to recognize all of
this difference so that it hasthe context, so that it can

(03:03):
relate to you on that difference.
Then we have something calledmassively multilingual AI, where
we have put 1,100 languagesinto it, including languages
which are disappearing orlanguages which are not the
dominant ones.
So Haitian Creole is in there,so it's trained on that, so that

(03:24):
if you speak h and creole, youmight be doing what you just did
, which said I couldn't believeit understands me right, of
course but you have to train themodel on that.
So part of the concerns peopleoften have is is the ai going to
be biased?
Right, you know, depends on whobuilds it, and who builds it
does matter.
But if you're building withintent to represent the world,

(03:44):
then you can deliberatelyinclude the world.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, by design.
So I have to tell people yourrole.
Tell me if I'm saying it right.
Vp, Head of Engagement andAccessibility how I do.
Yes, Accessibility andEngagement All right, all right,
all right, not bad, not bad.
So what is really the role ofyour mentor?
What does that role encompass?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
with your method.
What is that role in Compass?
It is to make sure that we arebuilding products that are
accessible to everybody andbringing value to people.
So accessible typically meansin this realm, you're looking to
see that the products can beused by everyone, and then value
is that.
Is it bringing value to people?
So I might say well, theseRay-Ban glasses, right, have we
made them such that people withall kinds of disabilities can

(04:28):
use them?
And then are they valuable tothose people?
This, for instance, people whoare blind or low vision are in
love with these glasses.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Oh no, you're talking to me.
No, it's revolutionizedpeople's lives.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I can't tell you the messages I get and things people
say, because you put on theseglasses and with the integration
of the AI, they can tell youwhere you are.
What's in front of you Is therea curb there at the side, what
is the room?
Think of it.
If you arrive somewhere, younotice you take a ride share and
they drop you off.
You say you've arrived, but youdon't know which door.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
That happened to me today.
Right, all right, and they dropyou off.
You say you've arrived, but youdon't know which door.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
That happened to me today right, oh right.
With the glasses on.
It will tell them there's agrey door in front of you.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
It says XYZ.
Okay, so you're audibly it'lltell you.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh yes, oh yeah, yeah , and you're asking it by voice.
Tell me what's in front of me.
But also again imagine readthis mail to me, summarize this
text for me.
And you just have the glasseson like no, you go to a
restaurant.
Tell me what is vegan on thismenu right, if you've ever I've
had lunch before with six blindpeople and me and it's me saying

(05:35):
, y'all, there's some extrafries over here, or they do have
chicken.
Now, independence with theseglasses with the ai in them.
It's telling them everything intheir surroundings, I see, and
giving information ai in them.
It's telling them everything intheir surroundings, I see, um,
and giving information.
This is just, it'srevolutionary technology, right.
So when I say bringing value, Iunderstand that's real value.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, I was.
I was looking up on wearableslike.
My area is marketing, so a lotof times when we lecture in
marketing, a big part of it hasto do with what the future is
going to look like you knowyou're trying to anticipate what
the needs are, to deliver onthem.
And wearable technology was aninteresting area for me in terms
of how much health benefitsYou're talking about vision.
But for people who might haveissues hearing, like I had Glenn

(06:18):
Niles here recently, he's thehead of the Down Syndrome
Association, but a strongadvocate for people with
disabilities in general and someof these things is, you know,
so helpful.
Like somebody like him, I'msure he'll be taking this in.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Oh yeah, I mean and across different disabilities,
right, so closed captioning.
So you just talked abouttranscription, transcription
powered by AI, which makes itvery easy to do now Think of
that for people who have ADHD,and focus and attention is that
now you get the information in adifferent format where you can
process it differently.

(06:52):
With wearables, we are workingon something called EMG, which
are wristbands that respond toyour muscular signals and it's
so sensitive that it can respondto people who don't even have
five fingers, don't have a hand,but it knows from the muscle
signals what you want to do andwe can use those to help you

(07:16):
navigate a computer.
So people who have spinal cordinjuries or people who have
tremors and can't use it in theway you can now can have a
different human computerinteraction.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Of course, using this wearable, so inputs that we
might need me to detect oh, youcan't, yeah exactly so matter is
now in its own way.
Hardware is a big part of whatyou're committed to it.
Yes, very committed.
Yeah, I see think of the.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's a form factor, right, if you're trying to get
to presence.
So we started with we want toconnect the world.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I mean that's happening right, With 4 billion
people using your product.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
And then into this area now, with metaverse and
presence being a very big thingwhen I describe deep glasses.
If you put the glasses on,there's now no barrier between
you and what you're experiencing, whereas if you hold up your
phone think of if you go to yourson's football game when you
hold up that phone to recordwhat's happening, it kind of

(08:16):
interrupts the experience foryou, with the form factor of the
glasses carrying the AI andrecording and all of that.
Whatever you're looking at,you're telling it record this
for me and now you can becompletely present in there.
I'll get my one.
It's my wife.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
We just come from vacation.
That's all you dealers want Ijust went to Malta by myself.
Right.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
And I use these glasses to navigate the whole
place Was this church.
Was the history of that, was it?
But Was the history of that?
But I could be present in thisspace while that was happening,
and so the hardware is a meansto arrive in the present.
Same thing for you know, theQuest headsets.
You're immersed in this space.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Of course.
Yeah, the headset's starting tobecome one of those things now,
like my son has been asking.
He's like you know, he wants toget a headset.
I think a part of thehesitation for me and you'll
tell me if there's somethingthat you hear a lot like.
As a parent, I feel like youknow I could see the TV and I
could see the phone and theother thing, but when you put on
this headset, I know what'sgoing on.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, I understand that Now you upload apps into
the headset the same way youmight on a phone, so you could
also control.
Yeah, well, you know I can.
Well, you don't know how to dothat.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
okay, he's gonna be left to his own devices,
literally yeah, well, right,yeah, and sometimes the children
are leading the way like theyare more tech savvy.
Yeah, that's good though.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that, look it is a toolfor us.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
It is a tool to again augment, to help us live lives
which are different.
I don't have space where I livefor a table tennis board.
My son likes to play tabletennis.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
We have two headsets.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
We knock in all the time.
In a space this small, we areable to play table tennis with a
table tennis app in themetaverse in the headset.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's so real.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, some of it.
I always feel I'm a.
You know they used to have thisthing called diffusion or
innovation.
I'm a laggard.
Anything come out new, I'm way,way behind.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Okay, you're not an early adopter, not.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
By far, and a part of it for me is, I guess, not
understanding or the, I guess,fear of it or whatever it might
be.
So, even when you talk aboutthese things, before we started,
when you said they had theRay-Bans, I was asking is that a
prototype or something?
I'm not realizing that we'rehere and how is it doing Like
people are?

Speaker 2 (10:28):
adopting it Incredibly.
Well yeah, flying off theshelves.
Now it is not in every marketyet Got it, so it is not sold in
Trinidad yet for instance.
And we just launched in Indiain May, right, because, yeah,
it's new, you think?

Speaker 1 (10:40):
it will get here eventually.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I mean, we're still building our business model and
you know looking at sales.
And then, as the AI is gettingbetter and better, you know,
it's surprising us as well.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Of course, all of the use cases I'll imagine, I'll
imagine.
So I was telling you before westarted that.
I remember back some time ago.
I saw this article and they saysomebody from Trinidad, big in
Facebook I can't remember theheadline, but read something
like that and everybody was like, yeah, you know, once you have
it, it could be Olympics, itcould be business, it could be

(11:13):
music.
Once Trinidad accomplishedsomething somewhere, we feel
proud.
We feel really, really good andI remember the announcement at
the time being about diversity,equity and inclusion, or DEI, I
would say in the local market.
Still a very new term at thattime.
What year was that?
2013,?
12, 13?
Yes, 13.
Yeah, we were.
Let me talk about the academics, right?

(11:33):
No, I see, there's no class.
I do, particularly at master'slevel, at MBA level, that they
don't have some discussionaround it, even if the case,
like for last time, we had to doa marketing plan but the
company was a DEI consultant, sothey're starting to be and
those programs are from England,right, but I don't know that in
2012, 13, there was a bigdiscussion around this happening

(11:57):
here, and when you all pointed,I think if anybody else was
like me, it's like okay, so what, what is this?
What is this thing?

Speaker 2 (12:06):
so you know that's my broad question, you know what
is DEI when we talk about DEI?
yeah, that's a charged questionright now.
So here what it is for me?
Sure, it is a means to identifyspaces where we are losing the
opportunity from the potentialof everyone.
If we have created systemswhere certain people in certain

(12:30):
groups are left out, not becausethey don't have the skills, not
because they don't merit to bein, but because we make
assumptions about the group thatthey're from and, as a result
of that, we do not get thebenefit of their productivity,
of their engagement, Then to me,we're losing out as a society.

(12:50):
And what DEI was was a series ofstrategies, initiatives, in
order to identify the value, thepotential and give opportunity
to everyone.
So you want to take away thethings that are barriers to
entry, such as bias, stereotypes.

(13:10):
I worked with Sheryl Sandbergfor a number of years, who was
the COO of Facebook and one ofthe most brilliant lines she
ever delivered.
She would say often, only oneof two things is true.
You have to believe one ofthese two statements Either you
have to believe that women arenot as smart as men, or you

(13:31):
believe that something isgetting in the way of women
being in equal leadershippositions to men.
Only one of those two thingscan be true.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Right Of course, of course.

Speaker 2 (13:41):
So maybe you believe they're not as smart as men, and
that's what explains the factthat only you know 19,.
I think now it's gone up to 27%of Fortune 500 CEOs are women
Okay.
And don't ask me if we got intorace on that.
Yeah sure, way less.
And you say, well, that'sbecause they're not as smart.
But if you believe them to beas smart, as then what is

(14:16):
getting in the way?
And it tends to be a systemwhich is biased, which assumes
that men are more, you know,they're stronger leaders, or
they're smarter, or they aremore effective, or whatever.
And what DI was doing wasgetting strategies in place so
that it was merit, in fact whichled the way, so that it was
merit, in fact, which led theway, and I could put that on
different categories, whetherit's women or race or sexual
orientation, disability, right.
A lot of things get in the waybased on assumptions and not
based on merit, and so for meDEI was developing strategies to

(14:41):
clear all of that out so wecould get the best people.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
But I had to ask you, so you had to go through some
kind of an audit that said, okay, these are the areas of
inequity, like.
When you say race or gender orsexuality, you have to get to a
broad spectrum of what whereinequality is like.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, I mean you do the audit yourself or you know
you're looking for research,you're looking for data.
And there are many differentsources to that.
I can look to see how manywomen are graduating with
computer science degrees.
I work at a tech company andyou know, at that time we were
hiring 2013-2014 is really theperiod we were hiring fast,

(15:17):
heavy growth and we're lookingfor anybody who could do
computer science.
Who could do data structuresand algorithms is our particular
thing.
But and you're looking at thegraduation rate and seeing that,
okay, only 18 percent of thegraduates are women.
Boy, that's a problem, because50 percent of the world are, and
I'm looking to serve the world,and so the other piece of the

(15:40):
dei is yes, you're clearing theway so you can get all the good
people who are otherwise heldback by bias, et cetera, but
also two other things.
One is that we know thatcognitively diverse teams will
do better at problem solving.
You get to cognitive diversityby having people who think
differently.

(16:00):
How you think is, in part,influenced by who you are,
background you come from, theskills you have, the identity,
all of those things.
So you're trying to take awaybarriers, so everybody has the
opportunity and you're lookingfor diverse sets because they're
going to produce better for you.
In that mix, when I look atokay, 18% women graduating, but

(16:26):
who am I serving?
50% women.
The way we build will be betterif we have teams that are made
up of men and women.
At 18%.
You have some teams that are100% men.
There's a lot of research thatsays when you're 100%, anything
it's not good.
Hundred percent anything it'snot good right, because there's
all sorts of confirmation bias.
In fact, ironically, there'stoo much trust.

(16:50):
There's research.
Looking at, like juries If youhave a jury made up of 12 people
who are from the samebackground, you're not going to
get the best result.
They trust each other too much.
They don't ask enough questions, they don't pry.
So we know also that diversitymakes groups function better.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, the evidence is there and I heard you speak
about it a lot Is the beliefthere, like when you started off
, people bought into it.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Buying is a big thing , Depending on the perspective
you have and the position youoccupy.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
that tends to influence whether you buy in, it
could be seen as a threat maybeCorrect, Correct.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
I have had people say the most outrageous things to
me.
I know, Richie, I know you'relooking to make space for them.
Others, Let them climb upthemselves, right, Of course.
Was young, went to a cricketclub here which will remain

(17:45):
unnamed with my brother who wassigning up to join the club and
play cricket.
And I went with him.
And when I went and I lookaround, I say you know what,
sign me up too.
And the people watch me and sayno, no, no, no, girls don't
play cricket.
And I thought, well, that's astupid game.
I mean, what game would nothave girls play?
What would I have to do with it?
right um and like, there wasn'tthe opportunity for me to be in

(18:08):
it, but for the people who werein it, if you occupy a hundred
percent of positions of anything, let's say you know it was in
the us.
Um, whites only baseball.
Major league baseball had to bewhite couldn't play otherwise
you're good from the time theystart to open up that
opportunity and the firstnon-white person comes in that
space.
You're looking around, you'resaying, but now we used to have

(18:30):
100% of the places, Now they'retaking something from us and I
could be next.
And you continue to think well,I am the best.
But proof starts to happen,because now you see Jackie
Robinson show up and he's notthe best.
No, Jackie Robinson was thebest.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
No, I mean now.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
you're finally not the best, You're finally not the
best, but kind of hard toaccept that, Of course of course
.
And so what you program yourmind to say is they're taking
something from us.
They don't merit it.
This is about ticking boxes.
This is about giving away topeople who are not entitled.
Yeah well.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
All of that.
So how you see it.
So getting buy-in is adifferent process, depending on
where the person is coming from,I would imagine.
But if you were somebody whohad been traditionally
marginalized or excluded?
You might see it as a finally.
Of course.
We're getting the opportunityto play.
I have a bat and a ball and Iknow I'm good.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I keep going back to
this lecturing.
I started lecturing maybe 2008,2009.
I've never been in a class thathad more men than women At any
level, and I do have thesestatistics.
I mean, in relation to thatwith the data, sometimes it's
not always up to date or I don'tknow if you're capturing it at
all, but I it doesn't.
It's not reflected in theboardrooms and meetings.

(19:45):
I have to go to work, you know.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
So again, is it because, if there are more women
than men graduating, how comethere's so many less women than
men?

Speaker 1 (19:55):
well, you say it's either women.
They accept that women notsmarter than men or something
getting in the way yeah yeah andso I look into clear.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
all those things are get in the way so everybody has
the opportunity to do and thatis better for us as a society,
because you're leaving out thebest.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Of course, Of course, and I think we sometimes skip
over the idea that we, we, weare not our best selves.
You know, the less exposed youare or the Unless you learn
about different unless you talkabout travel, for instance, it
starts opening up your mind tothe way the world could be.
The same thing happens when youmeet different people from
different areas.
Sometimes it shakes you to thecore it's cognitive development.

(20:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Your brain is developing in a better way.
Hence why I said withcognitively diverse teams you
solve problems better, morecomplex problems.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Of course, I remember reading one time I want to say
it's 3M, and at that time theywere calling it like conflict
teams.
Like you used to set up theseteams where people should not
get along and help them to seeeach other, and then they would
come up with much better.
And 3m at the time was knownfor innovation.
So, as you say you're doingproduct development kind of
products you're talking aboutexactly you're losing out if you

(21:03):
don't have people who are fromdifferent backgrounds.
But I wonder how contentious,because if I was to line up
those issues, let me use race asan example.
Right, it's a contentious thing.
You know people not.
It's not a comfortableconversation, I'm afraid, like
that and you you dive inheadfirst into that why?
why are you?
It's an easier for you to.
I watch all your credentials.

(21:24):
You know it's the easiestthings you should be doing.
I feel like you've pickedsomething that is enormously
difficult those conversationswith people.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Why wouldn't we try to solve the most difficult
problems for society If we'retrying to live in the best
possible place and we know thatrace is one of the things that
massively impacts that?
Look, I operate in America.
Where the history there?
We have colonialism everywhere,this sort of global patriarchy,

(21:53):
all sorts of things.
Right, so we share a lot incommon.
But you look at the history andthen think about what we have
lost out on.
What have we lost out on fromkeeping people enslaved for
hundreds of years?
What potential have have lostout on?
What have we lost out on fromkeeping people enslaved for
hundreds of years?
What potential have we lost outon?
And then, what price are wepaying as a society living
through the ramifications ofthat?

(22:14):
I have looked at data comparing, for instance, progress between
different groups, progressbased on gender versus based on
race so for instance, differentgroups, progress based on gender
versus based on race.
So, for instance, yes, 59% ofpeople graduating with four-year
degrees in America.
I have the statistics forAmerica.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
I wish I did for Trinidad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we must workon that 59% of women.
Right, hell yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
But in the last 10 years the percentage of women
who are heads of Fortune 500companies moved from maybe 17 to
27.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
So it's not much different there than here, is
everybody saying Becauseglobally sexism.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Right yeah, why is that?
How come you could have more?
Let me say on one objectivemetric qualified.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Right If we're just using the graduation, of course.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
And what's going on at the top.
So less men graduating andoccupying more positions up
there.
If you looked at race, race hasa 4x impact over your
likelihood of getting up to thetop versus gender.
So the number of, for instance,black CEOs is at an all time
high now in our Fortune 500.

(23:22):
And I believe the number iseight of 500.
And of those, two are women.
Yeah, I was going to tell youyou're a double whammy.
I'm a million whammies, I'm animmigrant, I have an accent, I'm
short, all kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, that's a lot's, that's a lot, that's a lot, so
that that's something that youfound in yourself in the
earliest days, like that um Iwas just always very attuned to
stupidity.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
I mean that thing where they lock me out to the
cricket club was stupid, I waslike, but this is dumb.
I could be the best cricketplayer of course, all you don't
know that.
Why would you, on the basis ofsomething so arbitrary, my
gender.
But you all make no sense.
And so I was attuned tostupidity.
I was attuned to and when I saystupidity I mean things that

(24:19):
hold us back, I got you, I gotyou and injustice, and so the
combination of that.
You know you look, I got you,and injustice, and so the
combination of that.
You know you look around andyou see that so many places and
it's just a shame what we couldbe doing, where we could be, how
we could be living if weoperated differently.
And so, yeah, solving thoseproblems.
I've been asked before okay,how are we going to solve racism

(24:40):
?
I'm like, well, that elephant,yeah, elephant yeah, yeah, yeah
but if we don't take one bite ata time of course.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well, you're taking the bites.
At least you know.
The world isn't a differentplace now than it was 40 years
ago, 10 years ago, you know so,so, so it advanced it.
But you, you, you're a conventgirl.
Yes, now you get this all thereone time, right?

Speaker 2 (25:01):
I was having a whole discussion.
People ask I'm a convent girlwho presents as a bishops one?

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Oh, that's why he says I need to understand that
logic.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
That's my identity.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
You know them, bishops, people go and act now.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
I'm not a bishops girl.
I'm not claiming it.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
I'm being real that people tend to.
I want to say 100% of the time.
People see me and assume I wentto bishops, but in fact I went
to Bishop's.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Ah, I see, I see.
I see I was listening to theConvent Accents and I listened
to a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Right, it's not there .
That's why it's not there.
I try, I tell myself.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I saw you do something that was it was a
longish address.
I in.
I say it must kick in after alittle while, but it's never so
from convent for you.
What was your next steps?
Like you have people in formfive, form six now they're
thinking of where we had to gowith the further education.

(25:53):
What was your thought process?

Speaker 2 (25:54):
the first thing for me was that I knew I didn't want
to narrow my learning in theway one would have to if you
went to Form 6.
I see.
So this thing of choosing onething, three things, was not for
me.
I wanted to learn a broadspectrum of things.
There's so much in the world tolearn, and so I chose to not go

(26:18):
into this system but to go fromthere.
I went to the US and I went tocollege.
There, I went to college, Iwent to Yale went to Yale.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
You say that as a person, right?
So Yale will be one of the mostdifficult schools.
You like the rough part Yale istough to get into for anybody
it is tough.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yes, it is very tough to get into.
But who say we can't get in?
So I went to Yale and I'll tellyou a little story about that.
I applied.
I didn't know anything aboutyale, I didn't know anything
about any of these us colleges.
Somebody gave me a list andsaid based on your grades from
convent, you could probably bein these.
I see, when they gave me a listand said, apply to those things

(26:59):
I applied to them I got intoanother school called tufts
right, which is a great schoolas well, and of the list it was
the only one that I had seen,and I say, okay, great, I like
that and I go in there.
Good.
Meanwhile I then get a letterfrom Yale saying you're on the
wait list and I had to asksomebody what is the wait?

(27:21):
List.
What does that mean?
And they said oh, it means theylike you, but they don't like
you as much as they like otherpeople who they sure they want.
So they're taking those andthen they're gonna wait and see
for you and again.
I was like but how they couldknow they don't like me, they
don't know me.
So I got out a camcorder and Iput it in a room like this and I

(27:42):
just stood in front of it and Italk about me, yeah, and I put
it in a room like this and Ijust stood in front of it and I
talk about me, yeah, and I putit in an envelope afterwards, a
little cassette.
I put it in an envelope and Imail it to the Yale admissions
office and that went its way.
In the course of applications,you have to do an interview.
I did an interview which beganvery poorly because I didn't

(28:05):
know the specifics about Yaleand what you know.
What did you want to studythere and how was it, you know,
and why this college over thatcollege?
And I wasn't from there and Ididn't really know the things.
But basically, when I was doneand leaving the interview, I
said to the man, what kind ofplace is this?
And he said, oh, it's aresearch institute for
euthanasia.
And I was like, oh, so youstudy euthanasia?

(28:27):
What do you think about themorality of people terminating
their lives?
And we started to have a wholeconversation about that.
Yeah, now we could talk.
I don't know about this thing.
I'm not from here and I don'tknow about that, but we could
talk about things in the world.
The combination of that video Isent in and the recommendation
from the interviewer in a thingthat turned around is what got

(28:51):
me into Yale, but in bothoccasions it wasn't an obvious
win, right?
I mean it was both.
You know, be who you are, bringwhat you can.
Show them who you are.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Evidently Isn't it the first like cool going into
them rooms.
It's something like I ain'tnever going to survive that you
will survive.
I don't be out there so fast.
Euthanasia before theyeuthanize me.
I don't be like in the wrongplace where I gone.
No, that's not you.
No that's not you.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
No, I don't know, I don't carry that, like, people
are people and we did, and what?
What was there to lose?
Okay, so I don't go to yale,I'll go to tufts, I don't go to
the states or stay right hereand I make something of myself,
or you know?
I mean, we also have to beconscious of the privilege we
have, um how privilege word isanother one of them.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Words now that people .
It makes some peopleuncomfortable.
You know it's one of thosethings when you talk to people
about the privilege and thosethings people get.
But I'm sure you see in thatlife all the time I mean for
most of us, there is someprivilege there.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
There is privilege in you because you're a man and
because of the assumptions thatare made.
So you might be a poor man, youmight be a black man, you might
be all kinds of things, youmight be a disabled man, but
there's still some privilege inthere.
I think people feeluncomfortable based on, again,
perception of reality andownership.
You could own your things oryou could live in a space where

(30:19):
you create a different narrative.
We often see ourselves throughour lowest or weakest points and
we are less likely to claim orown, maybe because we feel
guilty about having someprivilege, maybe because people
think if they own that it willdiscount what they've achieved.

(30:42):
I don't know.
Yeah, people climb up a littlebit when you talk about it, but
the reality is most of us havesomething.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, it's there.
I think something you saidmakes me realize why it might be
, because the idea that I haveprivilege over somebody else
might be one way.
I feel like there's somethingthat I could lose if we equalize
this playing field.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
If you admit it, if I admit it, they might take it,
that's right.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
They might go with it .

Speaker 2 (31:06):
I don't defend it, you know yes, yes, whereas I
think we could think differently.
We could think, if we admit it,that gives us a leg up in which
we could know how we use thatprivilege to help other people
yeah, yeah um, we're consciousof that, and we all have other
things that we're working on too.
We we all have weaknesses, ofcourse, of course.
So acknowledging your privilegeshouldn't take anything away

(31:26):
from you If you are alsobringing with merit.
Now, if you know that the onlyreason you have this job is
because there's no such thing asstaying quiet in life.
Correct, it's correct.
It's because nepotism orsomething.
So now you're a little nervous.
Now I think to hide Correct.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Of course, correct.
But I heard you say somethingabout admitting and
acknowledgement.
I heard you telling a storyabout moving into an apartment
and you said this lady came andto me.
I expected it to go all the wayin the next direction, right,
so I'm going to take you.
Correct me if I'm wrong withthe story.
But you said, um yeah,surprised that you are here.

(32:07):
Yes, yeah, I don't know if I'mupset at that point.
I am upset because I think I,going into that building,
knowing if I going into an areawhere I know mostly white people
live or mostly rich people live, or whatever the thing is that
I feel I'm not and I am theoutlier though don't say nothing
, not making me feel you know Iwould be uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
I'll be real and I was paying them bills yeah I was
earning my money, working hardand paying the bills, so I did
not have any sense of discomfortto be in there it was in
switzerland, oh it was geneva,yeah and it was a nice apartment
in lake, geneva, and the dayafter we moved in the cleaning

(32:41):
lady is who came to the doorright to see if we wanted to
keep her on as a cleaning lady.
Oh, right, right.
And when I opened the door, shelooked at me and said oh, I
didn't expect you.
And those were her only words.
And I immediately knew whatthat meant and I said to her you
mean, you didn't expect black.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, you dive into it Right away.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
We had to live in the same reality.
I guess Because you don't knowme.

Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah so what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
you didn't expect me, you didn't expect a short
person?
Yeah, you didn't expect a woman.
No, I know what that means.
And she said yeah.
And then she said if the ownersknew it was because the whole
application was on paperwork,right.
They'd never met me.
And she said the owners knew aBlack person was living in here.
That would be a problem.

(33:26):
They wouldn't.
In fact, they had.
The embassy of the Congo wantedto rent this apartment for more
money and they turned it down.
They said they'd rather get lessmoney than rent to Black people
.
So she had worked with them for20 years and she knew the deal
and I said well, this is what itis, this is what you get.
And the next day the ownershowed up because the cleaning,
and so she showed up and saidthere's been a mistake.

(33:48):
Oh my God, you can't live inthis apartment.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
But what are you feeling at that point?
Because you said that I justsay embrace the woman.
You was happy that she admittedit, because I was happy to.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
I was thrilled that the cleaning lady said it,
because most of the times theygaslight you, right.
They make you think you have achip on your shoulder, you
seeing things where, things notthere, why you have, why you
think they do it on everything,right, they'll do it on racism.
If you say, boy, it's becauseI'm a woman, why you think it
have anything to do with that,right.
But you know, inside ofyourself there's only one or two

(34:17):
things, and so it was wonderfulthat this woman said yes, it's
because you're blessed.
So now I don't have to dealwith the cognitive load of
trying to figure out.
What is this madness happeninghere If you go to a restaurant
and you see them serving otherpeople and then serving you?
The other day I was inAmsterdam and there is this
irony.
Now too, right, where I look,the way I look, nobody in the

(34:40):
world out there knows it's likethe.
you know Obama can't get a taxito stop for him, but now Obama's
famous enough that probably thetaxi can recognize him, but let
me, go level down from Obamaand no matter how rich you are,
no matter how successful you are, they're still seeing one thing
and you don't have the sameopportunities.
And so I will be in an airportI was just recently in Amsterdam
and I am traveling first classfor business or something and

(35:05):
come and you know the security,tell me you, you have to go over
there.
I said, but why me and why you?
And tell all these other people.
I said to go, don't question me.
And I said because I'm black,why you have to do that.
I said well, because look at theevidence here Now.
Engaging it makes peopleuncomfortable, of course, of
course, but not engaging itmakes me uncomfortable, worse

(35:29):
than uncomfortable, it makes melose out on an opportunity.
So I will go through thediscomfort to guard the
opportunity.
I have a right to rent thisapartment.
I pay for this.
I have a right to be in thisline at the airport.
I have you know.
Yeah, the same rights aseverybody else.
This is the thing aboutequality equity Like.

(35:49):
I am human.
You know, in the civil rightsmovement there were placards
that people would walk aroundwith just would say I am a man.
Now there's a gender issuethere, of course.
Of course, just to say I am,I'm a human being and we're all
equal and we're entitled toequal treatment etc.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
But that road to get there is a challenging one if
you are on the wrong side of thepower I appreciate that you
said that, because it's almostlike we came from a time where
those things were openly said,correct?
This fountain is for you, thisfountain is for me, and you know
, I was looking at this movie.
I think it's the green book wasthe name.
Yes, yeah, it was a good um, agood way of shedding light on

(36:29):
that, how things change whenthings get covered on nuanced,
or you know, it's very differentyes, and in other places
sometimes things are unsaid.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
And you know, when I was growing up here there were
clubs here where I knew Icouldn't show up and get in
because is this night correctremember god, we walk night.
Everybody used to say that andthis is a black country of
course, of, of course of courseof course.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, I could only imagine.
Yeah, yeah, I want to dive backinto where you were headed when
you went to Yale, right, andwhat that experience was like.
But I had to find out.
What do you do with theapartments?
What do you tell your lady whenthe owner comes?

Speaker 2 (37:04):
So the owner came and said I made a mistake.
The owner came and said I madea mistake.
I didn't plan to rent this out.
It's too valuable, emotional,sentimental value with my family
.
We really shouldn't have rentedit out to strangers.
I said I know it's 20 years.
You're renting this apartmentout now because it'll lead to me
.
But I didn't sell her out right.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
I wasn't looking to sell out the kidney lady.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
But I said that's not true, it's because I'm black.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
She kept denying, becausethat's what they do, you know.
And I made a decision.
She said no, you have to go.
This can't continue.
I made a decision that I wasnot going to fight to give a
racist the money I'm workinghard to earn.
So I could have said I'mstaying here, I ain't going

(37:47):
nowhere.
That was an expensive apartmentand, yeah, I didn't feel like
doing that.
So what I said is I will gowhen I'm ready to go.
Now it was hard to findapartments there, so I used it
to my advantage, took my goodtime until I found something
that was a third of the price,right, and you're gone, twice
the size, and then I could giveone day's notice.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
Normally you'd have to give three months notice,
right?
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Okay, you want me to go?
Yeah, I used it in my mind.
She did that.
I wrote her an email todocument.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, of course, yeah that she was a racist.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Oh yeah, that's part of the email too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So where do you study?
At Yale.
So I get to Yale and it'swonderful, very Wonderful.
And just curious people and youknow great learning and
everything, but I notice thatthere are.
It's a liberal arts college,right?
And you get to study lots ofthings, which is what I wanted,

(38:44):
sure, but then you have tochoose a major, mm-hmm.
And I noticed that there areoptions.
You could study Americanstudies, you could study
European studies, of course, youcould do math and science and
English and the data, but I said, how come they have no
Caribbean studies?
Why is it good enough to studyEuropean studies and American

(39:10):
studies and all of this, but notCaribbean studies?
So I applied to create my ownmajor in Caribbean studies, and
that is what I did.
How was that process?

Speaker 1 (39:20):
just introducing that .

Speaker 2 (39:24):
I mean, you know, I had to lay out what a syllabus
would be, what the materialswould be, where I would study,
who I would study with, whowould supervise that, to have
this independent major.
But I figured all of that outand did it, and so I graduated
with a degree.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
I feel like a running team through to life in a
maximum, a little bit.
Because that song I don't knowthat I would have the confidence
to.
I might think it, but thatmight be where it ends the
confidence to even think, evento think that I can create
another major Like where's thatthought coming from?
From seeing that cricket club?
Do you just have this?
You cutting through it?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
If I I mean it's a combination of things, if it
making sense.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Not stupid.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
When you try something, it makes sense, right
.
And then, yes, inequality, whyAmerican studies is worthy and
European studies is worthy.
What we are?
Nobody.
Right.
But this is worthy.
There's intellectual pursuit,so I studied literature from
across the region.
I studied Haitian revolution.

(40:33):
In fact, when I graduated, Iwent to live in Haiti, that's
another story, but there is somuch richness, and what we're
pursuing was intellectualdiscovery.
There is so much material forintellectual discovery.
Yeah, it can't be finite, Right,so it didn't make any sense to
me, that that wouldn't be anoption.
And so you go what's the worst?
Again, I keep saying what isthe worst that could happen?

(40:54):
they say, no, okay, I don't havea big ego no that's the other
thing and so they know you'regoing for it no, and also I
don't take no for an answer ifit's the first answer yet.
So with yale you could say Igot no for the first answer,
right?
No, we like other people morethan we like you and thing, but
as long as there's still alittle door you could push,

(41:18):
going back has never hurt, ofcourse no, you don't want to be
stupid and, like you, keep goinggoing banging your head on a
door at some point you have torealize you're crazy.
Okay, this door ain't opening,we could go in the next door.
But what a privilege to have asecond door you could go in yeah
, I suppose what true.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, you have the option yes got it.
Got it, so who teach you if youmake this thing you went?
What class you went?
When it come down to tospecialize in, who was electros?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
um, a whole bunch of different ones and again like,
if you're looking for it right,you can find it.
So I was able to combine things.
I studied under Nguyu Atheongo,who is like a foremost writer
from Kenya, kamau Brathwaite, apoet from the Caribbean, from

(42:04):
Barbados you know we bring insome Derek Walcott.
I found people who understoodand had expertise.
But then it was also part of itwas like economic development.
So it wasn't just literature,classes, economics geography.
I went from my junior yearabroad.
I went to Uemona and didclasses there.
So I just sort of you foundthere's enough and you find it

(42:29):
the threads.
There was a jamaican professorwho was at yale at the time.
I did some stuff for them.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
I did things on black women's they have some faculty
there who were caribbean.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
I see, I see a couple , but they weren't always
teaching caribbean things, butagain like they're all these
strings that connect us, so Icould do some african history
and bring that in I could dosome some African history and
bring that in.
I could do some Indian historyand bring that in.
I could do right.
All of that contributes to theCaribbean, right?
I did some Latin Americanstudies classes, looking at

(43:01):
politics and you know differentmovements.
Economic development is a bigone.
You know which way do you go.
We could see different models.
What happened in Argentina?
What happened in Venezuela?
What happened?

Speaker 1 (43:12):
All of that relevant for us as well, so you had a
degree before you had a degree,because my father was telling me
this thing, where the first manwho grants somebody a degree
didn't have a degree, he had tocreate it.
He made me talk about you, yousee.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Because that's, and when did it when?
When did it uh turn intointerest in law for you?
I didn't have an interest inlaw.
No, never did uh.
I applied.
So I graduate from yale and Igo to live in haiti oh, haiti
was before.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yes, it was just after you.
Yes, so why?
Because the caribbean studies,what?
What led you?

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Because I felt Caribbean people the world owed
Haiti.
Haiti is the country in ourregion that has suffered the
most and the one that has donethe most for us.
Haiti is the only place wherepeople were able to liberate

(44:06):
themselves, to fight for theirfreedom and look at when they
did it and how they did it, andthen they were punished for it.
And, as a Caribbean person, Ifelt I needed to contribute to.
You know, put your lot in whereum it might be useful.

(44:29):
And so I went to haiti tocontribute in whichever,
whatever way I could um whereverthe need helped the most,
whatever problem is the hardestto solve.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Let me go there and try and do something.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
So I just I went to haiti.
I didn't have a job or anything, really yeah, so you said you
were teaching there.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
You didn't go with the intention to do that.
No, I didn't know what I woulddo.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
I knew I could find a way to be useful somehow.
I'm confused.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
This is a lot, you know.
That's brave.
No, I remember I was living inJamaica at one point and we were
working for Sony Ericsson,which was the brand that had
hired us to do their trademarketing at the time, and we
had to go to Haiti for something.
I guess it was a digitalpromotion or something like that
but when I see the list ofthings that they have in Haiti,
including things like what to doif they have kidnapping- I only

(45:14):
saw that in Haiti and in Bogotaone time.
Yeah, I was like I hope I'm notgoing, you didn't go, I didn't
go, I didn't go.
You're missing out man, reallyyou to miami?
You know one flight remember wetalked about this before.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
He's had no connecting flights, no, sir.
So what's the experience like?
Amazing yeah amazing I lovehaiti.
Haitians, my gosh.
You want to know aboutresilience.
Yeah, you want to know aboutpower.
You take a day there yeah andsee how people live in, what
people living through and whatthey're producing out of it
Haitian art, haitian music,haitian food, I mean.

(45:56):
So I went to Haiti.
While I was in Haiti, there wasa coup and I had to leave.
That's a next story for thenext podcast.
How I got out of Haiti, that'sanother story Anyway.
And at that point then I waslike well, to you, that's
another story anyway.
And at that point then I waslike well, and so I applied then
for the Rhodes Scholarship andgot the Rhodes Scholarship.
And with the Rhodes Scholarshipyou go to Oxford, you get, you

(46:22):
know, up to three years paidit's wonderful, it's like having
rich parents for the first timein your life, uh.
But you have to study somethingat Oxford, and I applied to
study international relations.
I see, given what I wasinterested in, that makes sense.
I did not get accepted to do it.
No, I was rejected.
No spot for you here forinternational relations, and so

(46:45):
I had to find something else todo.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
And I did law.
I like how you say these things.
It's a matter of fact.
First, lemaz, if you get this,scholarship acceptance not
already granted is.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
This is separate, it's separate, I see, I see
you're more or less going to getinto oxford, but you're not
guaranteed.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
I see and you.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
there's a kind of small separate application and
then you, certainly for what youwant to study, have to make an
application, and some courses,like international, only took 16
people or something.
I wasn't one.
Law takes more people and lawwas in the end.
I loved it Because it wasintellectually interesting.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
But at that point all you know is you're going to
Oxford, so you had to picksomething else, correct.
So how come you decide?
Well, I guess law and IRA.
You tend to find out somepeople might.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
No, it was more random than that.
There's a lot of random thingsthat lead you in different
directions.
The fact that I applied for thescholarship was random.
I was walking down the streetone day and saw a friend still
at Yale.
And I said I haven't seen you ina long time.
A friend, my friend, richardDrayton, from Barbados, and he
said yeah, because I went tointerview for the Rhodes
Scholarship.
He was some years ahead of meand I said what's that?

(47:49):
And he said it's a scholarshipwhere you know they pay for you
to go to Oxford, you can studyblah, blah, blah, blah and you
should apply when it's your time.
And I said no, no, I think Ihad enough, I think I'm good.
But then, when it was my timeand I got kicked out of Haiti,
I'm like I'd spent my whole lifeplanning that, and similarly
with law in Oxford the personwho was the head of my Rhodes

(48:11):
committee at the time.
So you have to do interviewsfor the Rhodes and that's a
competitive thing to get thescholarship.
He was a lawyer who had studiedthere, and so when I didn't get
an internationalization, he saidah good, because I don't know
what you were studying that for,what job you're getting with
that.
You know, they were always likethat, right.
Yeah, that's college.
They were always like that,right.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, that's college.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
No, go and do law, Get a trade where you could do
something.
I mean, when I did Caribbeanstudies my mother nearly died.
She was shamed for her wholelife that I had done this thing.
You reach all the way you goand study Caribbean studies.
What are you going to do with?

Speaker 1 (48:38):
that?
What job are you getting withthat Exactly?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
What work are you going to do with international
relations?
And they come and do law and soI did it and they fell in love
with it somewhere along the way.
I like learning.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, it was a wonderful learning process, lots
of curious questions in thereand you're learning history in
it.
Yeah, I guess law is one ofthem.
Things right, you get to learnabout a lot of a lot of things
and jurisprudence was myfavorite class, which is the
philosophy of law right.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
So that's you know, we think you will.
You know, does universalismapply?
Is there subjectivity in theworld, I mean?

Speaker 1 (49:14):
so it was interesting , but I didn't plan to be a
lawyer because when you look at,if you just look at your life
on paper, going back, it lookswell planned out and by parents
who said, okay, we'll have thisdaughter, we'll get her to condo
, we'll get to law, you'll getto yale, get to do.
Oxford is none of it, none ofit.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
None of it.
I was just always pursuinglearning.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, so you had intent to become an attorney at
a five-month time?

Speaker 2 (49:35):
No, no, you had no intent.
No, I was learning and when Ileft Oxford, I went to run a
human rights organization calledCaribbean Human Rights Network
Right, based in Barbados butserving the whole region.
So I wasn't practicing law.
I had a law degree, but I wasdoing human rights work across
this region.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I guess the combinationof the two must be real helpful
the exposure to Caribbeanhistory and then law yeah.
I could see where that wouldcome from.
So that's what you spent sometime doing at the point of time.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Yeah working on things you know indigenous
rights in Suriname and a lot ofprison reform stuff and trying
to end the death penalty anddisability rights and gender
across the region, right FromPuerto Rico, cuba, all the way
down.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
You see, Guyana Suriname.
Yeah, I mean I'll come up withmore questions, you know,
because that's topics that, likejail, is interesting to me as
you bring it up Me too.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
That topic's Jail is interesting to me as you bring
it up Me too.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
Because I never knew there was a thing called
abolitionists or whatever youcall it right, but I don't think
that people should be in jail.
So when you say the deathpenalty, I'm very.
I remember that time when therewere three hangings, nine
hangings in three days here as achedi.
Yeah, I remember feelingphysically sick over the days.
It's like I can't understandand for me in my mind at the

(50:51):
time I couldn't understand howit could be just for a few
people to decide whether I'm onthe liver.
I just find it's crazy to me.
It's tough for me to reconcile,yeah, and to know that I know
what the feeling in the countrywas like at that time.
And if that's a collectivefeeling, I don't know if it
could be right at our time.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
And if that's a collective feeling, I don't know
if it could be right yeah, anda feeling is not always a fact,
so I think that feeling comesfrom fear.
Yeah, we're living in a hardtime and people sadly living in
fear there's a lot of bad thingsgoing on and so people get a
feeling that, nah, man, we gottaend this.
Yeah, and ending it.

(51:29):
In one way, they think it willbe a deterrent If you kill these
people, less people will killyou.
All the data shows that it'snot there.
Because, sadly, when people aredoing the things they're not.
Look, we could get intocognitive development, which is
something I'm very interested innow, and doing work here to try

(51:50):
to get us to understand what isgetting in the way of learning.
Sure, of many of the children inschools here we have a crisis
yeah, because, people, whensomething is interrupting your
learning, you're not developingcognitively well, and then
you're stunted, your judgment isoff, you're more impulsive,
you're making good decisions,but not because there's a fine

(52:12):
line to not say it's not choice.
You haven't developed yourbrain in there, understand, um,
and then we all suffer anyconsequences of the negative
choices of course and actionsand decisions.
But in the end, yes, hanging,those nine people did not stop.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Look, look, we have our own data right.
Did it stop the murders?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Did it stop gangs?
Did it stop extortion?
Did it stop kidnapping?
It didn't.
So I'm not saying I don'tunderstand why people want
vengeance or want to feel likethey're doing something to make
things better.
I get that.
I just know from the proof thatthat isn't the way to do it.
So I'm trying to see what wasthe other way and I feel like if

(52:54):
we could get closer to thesource, what is interrupting the
learning that is making peopleend up there?
If we don't investigate thatand if we don't invest, we end
up prosecuting.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah, it's an expensive society as a whole To
all of us, and living in fear ofus living in fear, yeah, yeah,
let's talk about that now, thework that you're doing now,
because I don't know how muchyou keep up with local news.
You still follow, like,everything that's going on here
yes, sometimes not 100%,sometimes for my mental health
yeah, yeah, it's something elseI have to lock off sometimes I

(53:28):
just don't not see it yeah,because the headlines right it's
all.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I'm looking in the papers from there and it's just
like there's destruction andthat's hard, it's tough, it's
tough.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
But one particular story that I've been following
and the debate going on debategoing on by you going on
facebook all the time now aboutabout Roger Alexander reading in
Parliament, and I saw his firstaddress.
It was he was fumbling, youknow what I mean.
He had a rough time gettingthrough a written statement and
I saw how people came at him.
Now, granted, there's apolitical thing to it, right?

(54:03):
Because if you're on one sideof the defense, it don't matter
what you do.
Once all our heels in on eitherside, it don't matter what you
do.
I go and say it's the worstthing ever happened.
Man, look at you, you can'tread it, unfortunately.
I find it to be realunfortunate because I was
telling a story here with one ofmy recent episodes where that
thing with not being able toread, I struggle with that a lot
that if you ask me to read aparagraph here, all hell break

(54:26):
loose, really.
It's hell break loose.
Really it's tricky.
I want them glasses.
You don't know.
You tell me where I'm glasses,so I wanted to get a loudspeaker
so when I see something itcould read for me, because stuff
is difficult.
So I was really happy about hisresponse when he said um,
because there were some schoolchildren in the gallery at the
time and he said I want toencourage you all.
If you're having issues withthis or if you're struggling to
do something, don't let nobodytell you nothing and make it

(54:46):
that that's not the be all andend all.
I don't let nobody tell younothing that does not be all and
then.
No, I don't think there's anyone skill that you could say
make you less of a human or lesspotential or anything like that
.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
So when I saw the work you're doing now, I felt
like it's so aligned with whathappened today yes, and just to
mention on the technology usingai, building on open source
platforms like Llama that wehave, people are making
interventions, apps where, forinstance, if you have dyslexia,

(55:16):
this will summarize for you.
It will change complex textinto dyslexia-friendly text.
Oh, it will.
Yeah, I see, so that you canunderstand, because what we want
to get to is the understanding.
That is the outcome we want, ofcourse, for people that have
more comprehension and moreunderstanding.
It's not necessarily.
Reading is one indicator, butit is not the only one.

(55:39):
Yeah, and sometimes people havehyperlexia, so they're reading
but they're not understanding.
You really want to get to theunderstanding, and all of the
tools we have that can get thereare ones we should be using.
But you know, I know CEOs inTrinidad who are severely
dyslexic and say to me Maxine,growing up, if I didn't come
last, it was an achievement inclass, but nobody was looking

(56:03):
into why this was so Of coursethey thought I was skylarking.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
You're lazy, that's right.
You're dunce.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
He ain't good at his school thing Right and they just
that's it, or you'reproblematic.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
Of course, of course.
Well, you're going to beproblematic if you're put in a
situation where you're amongpeople who they're telling you
you're supposed to be equal toBecause you're in a stream and
it's supposed to be doing great.
I was just telling my fatherthat class had 40 people.
I good for 38.
If I do get 38, I'm in the game, and then one time I come home

(56:36):
with a report 28.
He said what real progress wegot to cut down class to 30
people.
So it's the same damn.
Same damn.
But the thing about him is henever, I guess never, I guess
you limited, you know where?
No, and the language haschanged now because I don't know
that when I was in newton, theword dyslexia.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
I never hear some of them words, you know, you know
what words?
Still today people tell me ohadhd, we don't have that here
yeah at all.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (57:02):
here, we don't have it.
In the caribbean, no, no,that's a foreign thing.
They like the amada and peoplesuffering.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
I was just speaking to somebody who himself was
incarcerated here.
He spent many years in jailhere because he killed somebody
at 17.
Impulsive, he stabbed the boyto death.
His cellmate, he was saying,was very aggressive.
But he spent years in cellswith the man and he came to

(57:32):
realize that the fellow wouldact out whenever there was
something which would bringlight to his lack of learning.
Yeah, you had to read somethingand he would act out, unless
you were watching.
Well, he may not have beenconscious and that was his
trigger.
And in the cell he started towork with him to help him to
learn how to read one word andanother word and another word.

(57:52):
That kind of development.
Right.
So reading looks like thevehicle, but really it's just a
way of developing the brain.
He took time with him, but thatwas too little, too late Of
course yeah.
And what people saw was anaggressive, impulsive man was an
aggressive impulsive man.
What I understand is somebodywho did not get the investment
from Uli to identify what wasgetting in the way of his

(58:14):
learning and to have anintervention to help him develop
to his potential.
You know I talk about like.
It's all about like gettingpeople opportunities based on
their potential and theirability, but we have to invest.
All of us have something we'reworking on, of course, but if we
don invest, all of us havesomething we're working on, of
course.
But if we don't first identifywhat it is, you are left in the
class.
You know you're the dunce.

(58:35):
In the case of the CEO Imentioned, I'm thinking of one
in particular, the big shot CEOhere and he said that ultimately
, because his family had money,they sent him away and it was
there that he was then diagnosedand, you know, was able to get
some intervention.
Reading is still very hard forhim.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(58:55):
But he has ways around it Nowwith technology as well.
Right yeah, there are wayswhere you can have voice, right,
things can be read to you, oreven if you're one of the youths
now.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Like my son, he learns so much more watching
videos and doing things.
There's a call for the amountof reading, Right?
You know it's different, Right?

Speaker 2 (59:12):
But then some people Of course will.
That's reading.
They're not.
They have auditory, there'sauditory processing and there's
visual processing issues and youcould have one or the other
Right the auditory processing.
People don't understand it fromthat, but write down the words,
I'll understand it.
Gotcha Unless we know what isgetting in the way of your

(59:34):
learning.
We relegate you, we don'tinvest in you, and now we're
afraid of you.
Of course.
There are statistics from acrossthe region.
In some places they're saying75% of the people convicted of

(59:54):
95% I should say peopleconvicted of serious crime do
not read beyond the level of athree-year-old.
I know in the States 70% don'tread beyond elementary level.
I do not know the statisticsfor Trinidad.
I know through the work we'redoing with Cotton Tree
Foundation that when we went tospeak to schools and principals
to say we want to figure out away to get more children
assessed so we can find outwhat's going on and then give
them learning plans, work withthe parents, we were looking

(01:00:17):
across 10 schools doing a pilot,one child from each school.
The teachers say one child, 33%of my class, easily I can send
to y'all.
So I don't have the hard data.
I know anecdotally we have aproblem.
I know from people who work inprisons here that they say, oh
my God, the vast majority havelearning issues but those were

(01:00:39):
not addressed.
So one of the things I thinkthat we would greatly benefit
from as a society is investingto identify what is getting in
the way of learning and thenfiguring out.
And now we have technology tohelp us.
I just tell you about all kindsof interventions that scale
what each person needs to helpthem to live up to their

(01:01:00):
potential.
Human beings want to grow.
We want to develop in a healthyway.
That's a survival thing tooright, like that's a natural
thing.
We want to learn how tonavigate this world, et cetera.
So to assume that people hardendon't want that.
There's a reaction to achallenge.
Right, if you know it is in arelationship and you know you're

(01:01:21):
doing something wrong, I willhave a fight here.
Of course that's a distractionand sometimes it's a lack of
opportunities.
Well, I didn't learn, so now Ihave nothing else to do.
So if we can intervene earlier,if we can figure out what is
happening with the learning andwe get these plans.

(01:01:43):
And what you need for that isfor people in schools to get
learning assessments.
There are psychologists who dopsychoeducational evaluations.
You can get one done privately.
It costs money.
This is where we would likepeople to contribute.
We started something at CottonTree.
If we had more people investing, we could hire more.
We hired 10 psychologists to dothis first round, working with

(01:02:05):
the parents, working withteachers, etc.
And yes, they identified oh,this is what this child has,
this is what this one has andthis is what they need.
If we had more peoplecontributing, we could do more
of that.
That's, you know, nonprofitwork.
You could pay privately and getthat assessment done.
The government there is astudent support services
division that if you, I thinkyou come, maybe through the

(01:02:28):
principal, whatever you get areferral, you would go in and
you could get each other's ass.
Now there's a long wait list.
I'm sure, I'm sure.
Capacity, right Capacity.
We have to build the capacityto do that.
But it starts with the parentsfirst seeing the children
differently, making a differentassumption.
Let's put it there let's assumethat something is interrupting

(01:02:50):
the learning here, as opposed toassuming that they're bad or
they're done so they're whatever.
And then, if we start from thatangle, we may discover things
that will help us ultimatelyhelp that child and help society
, of course.
And then the second part of itis that we need to find the ways
for the children to then getthe support.
Once we identify, so across thenation, in the schools, how the

(01:03:14):
teachers would teach towards,if they knew you were dyslexic,
what would they do?
Right, do we have the trainingto do that?
But again, in this day and age,technology, which is available
and free can also be helpful inthat, With Ishii School, which
is a school in Port of Spain butan excellent school for people
with special needs, we started ascholarship fund to help cover

(01:03:38):
half of the costs for a certainnumber of students, If we had
more people contributing to thefund we could cover for more.
And it don't have to be yourchild.
I don't have no child in schoolhere.
But, it's a society I careabout.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
And I know we could live in fellowship.
Of course, if all of us doingbetter, we go better.
All of us, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Taking them gates down.
Of course, leave your gun home,mm-hmm.
Yes, don't have no gun, ofcourse.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Because we don't need it.
You can't say do I know gunright now, it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
So this is what I'm saying, but I want to get to a
place where I understand fully.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
We don't need it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
No, where we being productive, and I mean what that
would do to lift the wholecountry economic output, like
all of it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Yeah, yeah, A question around that right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
When you say intervene, so y'all do some
great work with cotton tree.
What would be the age for aparent to start that
intervention?
Any, yeah, I see any age.
We were working with primaryschools in this pilot right, but
you could get a diagnosisautism from as early as three.
Um, you know sometimes whathappens to children here.
I know people here who said,yep, I was a dunce child.
When I was 12 I got a pair ofglasses and for for the first
time I saw and I thought that'show you all been seeing all this

(01:04:53):
time.
The child couldn't see, youdon't know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
You think everybody else experiences what you're
experiencing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
That's right, so sometimes it's that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
And I like how you put it.
You know that is gaining theway of your progress.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
So that child did not do well all through this time.
If somebody had tested theireyes, do well all to the same
when if somebody had testedtheir eyes.
So the intervention looksdifferent.
But these psycho-educationalassessments are going to do a
holistic.
You know 360 what.
What's happening here?

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
oh, that's okay, I got you, yeah, and I mean, they
may refer you to anophthalmologist.
I see, I see, I see, so it'sbroad yeah I got it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you're looking, you're
looking to solve the problem.
What's getting in?

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
the way.
Yeah, what's the interruption?

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Yeah, I mean, I know people took children just to
their pediatrician for one thing.
But a good pediatrician saysyou know, I don't think it's
this thing, I think it could bethis other thing.
Take them to to check yourhearing, right, which is another
obstacle, that's right, I'mwith you.
And then discovers that, yeah,so the intervention starts with

(01:05:54):
somebody assessing Of course.
Yes, somebody to look at thischild from a different lens and
see what could be getting in theway.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Yeah, it makes me feel like we should get to the
point where all children assess,just in case.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Yeah, case, absolutely, absolutely, yeah,
absolutely.
You could see where the societywould be better.
Yes, and children resilient.
So just talking from my ownfriend groups now, people who
are experiencing these thingschildren, it is what it is.
They go, they do the assessmentand so on.
What happens when the obstacleis the parent?
Because we still, as a society,deal with shame and
embarrassment and they can'ttell the thing because they had
to hide the report book now, orthis common entrance thing

(01:06:28):
everybody just put all of yourname in the papers.
But you was all right, you werein contact.
And everybody looked for thename.
But how important is it for usto sensitize.
That's why I'm talking about it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
And that's why I'm saying everybody has things that
they struggle with.
Let us live in the reality.
We don't want to hide ourprivilege and we don't want to
pretend that we don't havestruggles If we all engage on
the same plane.
Reality, we're human beings.
We're imperfect, of course.
Who's pretending to be perfect?
That CEO who couldn't readRight?
No, everybody has something.

(01:07:04):
But yes, you're right, we carryon the shame because I think we
pretend we're in some la-la landwhere there is a thing called
perfection and that robs us ofthe benefit of addressing the
things that we need, or where weneed support, asking for help,
and so those are things, and sothat's why I've been talking
more.
Somebody said to me yesterday Ifind you hear a lot, I'm

(01:07:26):
talking more, saying yes to comeand do this podcast right.
But because I want people, Iwant to normalize it and
therefore to get people to kindof wake up and own that and it's
all right.
What are we ashamed for?
I understand.
You'll be more ashamed when yourson end up in jail.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Yeah, let me ask a little more about our cognitive
development.
I had started reading more andmore, I guess, in trying to
accomplish more things I startedgetting into.
I'll tell you what helped me alot with reading.
I went to this course calledEffective Personal Productivity
and it was about management andleading people and the comfort
of delegation and all thosethings.
It was a whole lot of modules,but one of the modules was

(01:08:04):
reading fast Because I say, atthe executive level, there's a
lot of information you have totake in.
If all of it comes in writtenit's going to take you a lot of
time and they had introducedthis concept of skimming and
scanning, you know.
So it's not like because I feltlike when you have to read you
have to read word, word, word.
If I read a book now, you knowhow long it's taking me to
finish that page.

(01:08:25):
I will read that it's notreally going in, correct?
It's just blah, blah, blah,blah.
Now, when I saw skimming andscanning, it's easier for me to
just kind of watch the paragraphand get a sense of what is in
there and if there's somethingmore important.
I could pay some attention ontime now instead of having to
read the whole thing, and thenit's easier for me to do this.
If you explain something to merather than having to write down

(01:08:46):
and read it, it's a a littleeasier to grasp.
So it allowed me to make somesteps in the right direction.
So I wonder if our schoolsystems, you know the school
systems, will allow for eventeachers, as you say, with the
technology, like Fatima now hasall smart boards.
It's such a great step and Iwant to get more into that.
Cognitive development, becausethat led me to reading some

(01:09:08):
books on habits, you know,instead of habits over this
motivation to change, if youcould change your habits.
And then in reading that, Ididn't expect it to be so much
about cognitive development andthe way the brain works and so
on.
So when you said if I don'tdevelop by this point, by this
age, it limits cognitivedevelopment, you could talk a
little bit more about it yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
So I don't think that there is a specific age by
which we don't develop anymore,but we know that the brain is
most malleable the younger youare Everything is most malleable
when you're young, right you?
learn languages like nothingwhen you're younger.
Right, it's learning so much.
So the early intervention isthe issue.
The earlier you get there, themore chance you have of positive

(01:09:52):
development.
When I gave a story about thefellow in prison and his
roommate, he tried, but that wastoo little, too late.
He done lock up.
He done lock up.
And in the end he died byviolence himself.
If we start earlier, we get moreprogress.
But it don't matter.
The CEO I mentioned didn't goabroad until he was in his late

(01:10:14):
teens and they were able toidentify what some people.
I just talked to somebody lastnight who's 41 and just
discovered that he has ADHD andsaid like he cried tears when he
realized this is what explainsthese things.
I'm struggling with my wholelife.
When you tell me that storyabout reading the book and you
have to read it over and over,I'm thinking, oh, that could be

(01:10:36):
a number of things.
One of them could be ADHD,where it's a focus thing, but we
don't know until we look intoit.
And then, once we know, then wecould start to see.
When you talk about smart boards, I remember when I went to
interview at Facebook.
I was not a technical person atall, I just am a problem solver

(01:10:58):
and they had some problems andI'm going to see if I could
solve this.
But in the interview I cameback and I said to a friend of
mine who understood that worldmore, who was part of that tech
world, I said why are thosepeople so strange?
Why they can't just talk to you?
They can't talk without writing.
You'd start the interview andeverybody would get up and write
something on the whiteboardyeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:11:19):
And I was like that's where I'dlike talk to me, because I
don't learn as well looking atthe diagram on the whiteboard.
So I learned that, okay, I'mmore auditory.
I do like the written word isgood for me, but those visuals
not so much.
For somebody else, that visualis saving them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Yeah, that would work great, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Gotcha.
So at any age you can discover.
Once you discover now you canstart to address, if anything.
The discovery starts to reducethe shame you're feeling in
yourself Because now you have anexplanation for things.
Like when I tell you when awoman says because you're Black
they don't want you in a.
I say thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
You take the load off .

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
That load off of me now, because I would have been
swirling right that talk aboutshame reduced and now you're in
a healthier place.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
You realize them is the problem.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Right In California.
The old surgeon general was aJamaican woman who was a doctor,
who had come up with this wholething where she realized that
she was, as a doctor, seeingpatients who, essentially, by
all the regular indicators,should have been healthy, but
they weren't.
And she came to realize thatliving in certain circumstances

(01:12:32):
caused ill health.
So let's say, it wasn't yourdiet, but she was checking for
diet.
It was actually because youlived in a home where there was
violence and that was great,which wasn't the way.
So she created a sort of kindof a metric for measuring that
kind of pressure and poverty,like all of these things were

(01:12:52):
impacting health.
But weren't the obvious thingsonce you knew it?
And I remember saying to herokay, but once you tell people,
well, it's because you're livingin a home with violence or
because you're living at thislevel of poverty, whatever, they
might not have any means to doanything about this.
So what's the point?
When she said, nah, thedifference it makes, just to
know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Get the revelation.
Got it, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Because now you can start to figure out ways Even if
no one comes to intervene.
There's nobody on a white horsecoming to save you from that
You're knowing.
You start to do self-help then.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
And just taking away the shame.
Just having the understandingclears the way to something.
So I believe there is someprogress to be had at any age.
Right, got it In cognitivedevelopment A from the knowing
and then B, really, if you cando the intervention.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Yeah, when you said any age, I was thinking any age,
child.
So you're saying my big selfAbsolutely Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
We are all.
I use the word learners, Idon't.
I tend to not use other wordsbecause, everybody's a learner.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Got it, got it, got it.
I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
I even said people in school Right, but not
necessarily children.

Speaker 1 (01:13:59):
Yeah, yeah, I keep thinking children, you know, but
I receive that.
I'll tell you when I hold it.
I People have plenty to learnand various to be removed.
Yeah, of course, of course, butthey have growth.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
We're all growing, until we're dead.
We're growing man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Yeah, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
So I have to ask you yes,because with all this you talk
about Yale and all this time inOxford and that I see, when I
pull up your bio, I see anacting.
I'm trying to wonder when youget the time.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
No, I have always wanted to be an actress.
Yeah.
I don't know, something in myblood and my bones always wanted
to connect with people in thatway.
Right.
When I was 11 years old, I wasdriving down the street with my
mother at the corner Carlos andRobert Street, and we stopped by

(01:14:47):
a traffic light and a woman wascrossing the road and she saw
and she knew my mother and shesaid I don't even have a
daughter that old, and my mothersaid yes, and she said I don't
have a daughter that old.
And my mother said yes.
She says well, I have acompetition going on.
Miss Junior.
Trinidad and Tobago is a talentcompetition.
Just so, yes, just so.
And she said she should enter.
And my mother said but shedon't have no talent.
And I was like no, no, no, Ihave, I have plenty talent.
Yeah, yeah, I entered myself inthe competition and I did a

(01:15:08):
spoken word piece and I won andI was like well, this is the
beginning of my acting career,except my mother was like except
your books, that was very cute.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
Very Trinidadian to her Exactly Go back and study
your books.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
So my burgeoning acting career was halted then,
but then all throughout incollege I did improv comedy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
Like stand-up For many years.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Well, so improv and stand-up are two very different
things.
Improv is like acting, yeah,stand-up you're rehearsing your
jokes, you know your thing andit's you alone.
Improv is a different scene.
Improv you work with a group.
You all build somethingtogether.
Right, you stand on stage, youhave no script and you, the
audience is asking for.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
That's like Wayne Brady and them used to do a lot
of that.
They had a show doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Whose line is it?
Anyway, that kind of thing isimprov.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
And that's untrained.
It just went into those people.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Yes, yes, but you mean your practice right.
Once you're with a group,you're practicing because you're
learning.
There are some key skills, yeahhow to say yes and how idea and
build on it.
And let me tell you somethingit is such an important skill
for life, for collaborating withothers, creating out of nothing
and making it flow, notblocking receiving.

(01:16:21):
It's so great.
So I did improve for years andI did improve.
Actually, I got into thatbecause when I went to college
and I was in the States and Iwanted to do acting, I was
annoyed that all the rules youhad to have an American accent.
I was in America and I was likewhy the woman in the coffee
shop have to be American?
Why did they start?
And so there was a kind ofpolitical piece to it too.
I said, nah, and in improv youcould be you Because, yes, the

(01:16:45):
person in the coffee shop youget to create who that is.
And so I went, went into improv, which was, as I said, the best
thing I ever did.
Yeah, and then I came back toTrinidad and started auditioning
for things and did VaginaMonologues Great.
I remember that VaginaMonologues was my big breakout
theater, stage production andWestwood Park.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
So I was a character in Westwood Park.
My wife was like MaxineWilliams in Westwood Park.
I was like what All these?

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
years later.
As soon as I show up, I'mcustom.
I mean people be like wait.
I mean back in the day whenWestwood Park was on air all the
time it was the thing and I wasan evil character.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Yeah, isis DeVeens, right is devines, and so
sometimes I've been in thesupermarket and the woman
cashing me out to say I justhave to say I find you treat
that man bad.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
You had a right, yeah , yeah, yeah, uh, but it's so
much fun and so I've done, andthen I went into doing things
like what you're doing now talkshows and hosting things and I
did a lot of carnival andcultural stuff, yeah, and that's
how my wife described it, youknow.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
I said are you sure?
And she's like she was alwayson TV.
She was just always on TV.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
And all the while I was practicing Lord during the
day and then doing these thingsat night or on the side,
carnival, messiah, but one ofthe biggest, most sort of
meaningful pieces to me was theDragon Countdown.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Right sort of meaningful pieces to me was the
dragon can't dance, right, rightuh, where I played sylvia
against brother resistance yeah,aldrich yeah, that was really,
really meaningful I saw thatpicture, like when I saw the
picture just mark when youinstagram a little bit when I
see it, I was like what happenedhere?
this is like a connection thatyou're not expecting to see
again in my mind when you, whenyou talk about maxine williams
again, I always go back to thisarticle where we have a trainee
in Facebook, so it feels verycorporate, and then it's like

(01:18:32):
you're alongside Bruce.
The photo itself is so powerful.
Especially I can see backdropof this story.
It probably could make usbetter, right yeah, I mean it
was wonderful.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
I mean first of all, oloveless and his writing and
his story and how it depicts whowe, so it mattered to me to be
in that production to representus in that way.
But you know the concept of thecorporate person and the artist
and I think we tend to narrowtoo much or expect too little

(01:19:01):
almost.
I did have times, like when Iwas doing vagina monologues and
I was a lawyer at the same time,where sometimes I would hear,
like this client not too happy,and I would be like, okay, well,
I will pack up all their thingsand send it back.

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
Then Because you have a braveness.

Speaker 2 (01:19:19):
No, because I went in your case for you.
You concerned about the factthat I on stage representing
something doing art you know,connecting with people, bringing
joy, All right well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
Like I saw, like I had.
Colin Lucas was one of thosepeople I always admired for that
.
You know, band leader andsinger and you know he out there
in tights and everything in afit, and then next day CEO of
the Port Authority or CEO ofCotter and he was talking about
some of that too.
You know he said I was heavilyfor work.
He didn't meet me, since he wasvery, very and he was conscious
of it too.
He was making sure he showed upon time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
Yeah, I think we small up ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Yeah, you're fine too .

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
And people, yeah, and you expect that.
And then you're afraid to beall of the things and to show
all of the parts If you're nothurting anybody and in fact
you're helping, you'recontributing and showing what
creativity can do, why wouldanybody be concerned about that?
But we do.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
I find we do Like I was conscious of it, like
starting a podcast I was soconscious of okay, I'm doing
parody songs and doing thingsthat might be out there, and now
I just show up in a meeting andact serious.
You know it's a difficult spaceto be in.
Yeah, yeah, it is Until it'snot really to be honest.
Honest because now I just beendoing both for so long.

(01:20:32):
That's right.
It is what it is I can talkabout.
It's just like thisconversation.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
You just talk about who you are, you know your whole
self, and then you givesomebody else the space to be
themselves when they see youshow up and do that and that
matters I got you, I got you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
So at 11 you say spoken word very casually.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Right, you were writing poems and things before
no, so what had happened was Iwas going to sing.
I was going to sing a songcalled the Double Dutch Bus
Right.
I don't know if you know thatsong.
No, I don't know it.
Double Dutch Bus coming down thestreet.
It was like a popular song,right Anyhow, and I was going to
sing that song and I waspracticing and then, three days
before the performance, beforemy mother again look out the

(01:21:12):
window and say you know, youcan't sing right, you ain't
keeping a tune.
That's sounding real bad,you're gonna lose if you're
gonna do that.
And I was like what?
No joke, no, mommy's no joke.
Listen to me.
Everything I learned aboutfeedback keep it real right.
Yeah, man, and that's a goodskill too yeah, to know how to
take feedback out yeah, receive,and oh okay, and no, be too big
to take it Right.
So she gave me that feedbackand I was like what?

(01:21:33):
But this is my song, yeah.
And instead of singing the song, then I took the words of the
same song and I started speakingthem and then adding some
gestures and doing it like alike a one person acting show
and say spoken word, because itwas kind of like poetry, because
it's a song lyrics.
But then I was acting it outRight, and I started practicing

(01:21:55):
that and she said, no, that songain't good, I see.
And so, you know, did a quickpivot, went on stage and
delivered this thing and it wasa hit.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
And from then, I mean , there were other times where I
was like, nah man, I know Icould sing, Coming back and
singing Turns out, not evenmother.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
I'm now getting feedback from other people.
I have been in musicals where Ihave been one of the main
characters and they tell me youknow what?
You just lip sync when they'resinging.

Speaker 1 (01:22:25):
I love it.
Everybody can do it every day,of course, of course, but you
gave it a shot, I did, and thatis important.
That's a running theme througheverything you say, because the
stage is a frightening place fora lot of people.
You know going on stage andhaving to deliver.
Are you nervous and how are youapproaching those things?

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
I cannot say that I have a sense of being nervous.
I prepare.
Now, if you do an improv, yourpreparation is in the training,
learning how to work with others.
But even that, yeah, there aregoing to be times where things
come at you.
So, for instance, when I didimprov, I did that in the United
States and I had just gottenthere for college.

(01:23:05):
I did not know so many of thecultural cues and information,
history, all of that.
And again, improv the audienceis giving you.
So I remember being on stageone day and saying, can I have a
profession please?
And somebody shouted out NFLlinesman.
I have no idea what the NFL isoh, the NFL has a whole artistic
composition.

(01:23:26):
Well, I don't know what alinesman is either.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
And it's a lineman too.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
It's not a linesman, it's football, see that NFL line
man and I have no idea whatthey're talking about, but I say
thank you.
Great.
And now I have to do somethingwith it, and I started standing
up and acting like I was dishingout food and saying, okay, next
Come on, if you're in thenatural food line, you got to
move it quick.
I only have so much broccoliand they thought it was

(01:23:53):
hilarious that I took NFL andmade it natural food line at the
cafeteria and so and they lovedit and they thought I was being
clever and turning the NFLthing around, when in fact I was
just pulling for something.
It's a good lesson.
That was the worst that couldhappen.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:24:13):
So the nerves come out of thisfear of failure and people think
I'll die.
I won't be able to get up again, I won't be able to face people
nobody not on you like thatseriously yeah, it's true
there's so much going on in theworld.
People have so much going on inthemselves.
Okay, so you fall down todaynobody's gonna remember that
tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
Yeah, I used to.
Let's still have like publicspeaking.
I always nervous before once Isay the first couple words okay,
right.
And I remember the best adviceI got was actually from a doctor
who was saying the same thing.
He's talking about anxiety andthem things and he's like listen
, he say when you start talkingon a stage.
He said everybody in that crowdstudied the self, nobody
worried about.
If you're nervous, if you this,everybody worried if you will
call on them or something likethat.

(01:24:50):
People really not paying muchattention to that.
Yeah, but as a as a show thatwe talk to calypsonians here all
the time, we talk to people whoin the in the arts, I had to
ask about what it was likeworking alongside brother
resistance opposite I mean justthe dream of a lifetime his.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
I don't think anybody could have been better cast for
Uldric than Resistance who hewas, how he carried himself,
what he brought to us, and sothe experience of inhabiting
those characters who representso much of who we are was so
powerful.
Learning from each other andthen bringing that to the

(01:25:29):
audience oh yeah, I mean it wasa gift.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
And where y'all did it.
Where did it run?

Speaker 2 (01:25:33):
It was in opened in Napa, rima, and then we did on
the big stage once too.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
Oh, nice, big stage, savannah stage.
Oh, these two plays on theSavannah stage.
Now and then.
That's huge.
No, don't seem worried by theaudience.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Actually, you know what the bigger the stage, the
bigger the audience, the easierit is, why?

Speaker 1 (01:25:51):
is this.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
How come I think there's something about now it's
not as intimate?

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Gotcha, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
And you can kind of immerse yourself in the whole
space, gotcha.
Whereas if it's three people infront of you, boy, that's some
real right.
Whereas if it's three people infront of you, boy, that's some
real right.
Yeah, yeah, you have to connectwith each of those three, and
if one of them not listen to you, you're in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
I suppose.
I suppose At a comedian he saidthe same thing.
I was so surprised, you know,you see, when it's big audiences
, it's just much easier.
He was also saying, like,because it's stand people and
it's not hitting.
You have an issue.
You have an issue.
So I had to go back to yourInstagram.
Right, I have plenty of McQueento do here.
Right, heavy McQueen.

(01:26:37):
Right, because it seems asthough that working alongside
resistance, as you say, wouldhave been great, but Loveless
seems to play a big role in liferight.
I'm acquainting something here.
It says a list of books thatyou've been reading recently.
Right, and when I look at thelist of books, you might have 10
books here, but about four.
So even up to now, still a biginfluence.

(01:26:57):
Yes, and rereading.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
So I reread the Dragon this year and I
discovered things that I I meanliterally I was like, oh my gosh
, that is it.
That is the answer.
I read that how many years ago?
And still I am discoveringthings, because it is layered,
because his writing is likeembroidery and you can work

(01:27:19):
through the patterns and see thetexture, but then there's
something else going on overhere and over there, and then
you know I'd never read, it'sJust a Movie.
So that was a new Lovelace.
This is the year Lovelace turns90 years old, and so it was
also for me a sort ofre-immersion in his space and
his writing Of course, and thenhaving to play one of his main

(01:27:42):
characters too must have beenspecial.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
yes, because I mean they say how good resistance was
on Zolric, or was it like aSylvia?

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
you know something?
I moved back to Ferdinand toplay Sylvia.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
I wasn't living here yeah, I was after the Queen.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
I was living in Jamaica that time look, I
remember from young right.
I had always said boy, I don'tknow how much time I have, I'm
very, very conscious ofmortality.
I don't know how much time Ihave.
This could be my last second.
On my way here today, I had onemango put aside for me.
I said, boy, eat a mango now,because there's only one mango I
have.
And then I thought, eat a mangonow.

(01:28:15):
You don't know if you're comingback home.

Speaker 1 (01:28:17):
Literally right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
So.
So I was living in Jamaica andsaw that they were doing a
production of the dragon.
I pack up my things and I comeback and I say no, I have to be
nuts.
And people were like, who areyou?
And this is before.
I had done vagina monologuesand all the other things.
I believe was it before.
Forget the timeline now.
But the point is I was not theperson people would come to for

(01:28:40):
that and I was like, no, trustme, I know Sylvia, I know Sylvia
.
Nobody can play Sylvia like me.
And I went and I auditioned andI got the part.
It meant a lot to me to playthat character, a lot, a lot.
She was a young woman who and Imust've been about her age when
I first read the book 17.
And she represented strength,represents and beauty and power

(01:29:03):
and an understanding of self andnavigating that self in a world
that gives you obstacles thatyou didn't create, but knowing
all along that you're bigger andbetter than so much of what
they bring to you and so much ofwhat they expect of you.
And you know she shines, shehas a light and he talks about
in his embroidery way, all thatshe is and to me it all adds up

(01:29:27):
to love, she's love, and she'sthe love that we're searching
for in ourselves and in others,and there's this just power
beaming, this aura, and that isus, and so, yes, it meant a lot
to me.
I move, move back to Trinidadto get that role.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Got it, got it, got it.
Well, is it something that youdo still Like?
Is it something you're stillinterested in now, like you
would do?
What's your role?
That going to get you to flyback here now?

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
I would.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
yeah, Let me know what you have.
I really shouldn't ask you that, I shouldn't know that.
Right, exactly, exactly.
Nothing is off limits.
Yeah, yeah, what life I hereliving.
You know, I got you.
I got you another picture Icome across randomly on the
instagram.
Is you with peter minchell?

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
yes, yeah, that's my boy oh that's my boy earlier and
how we met was that he came tosomething I was in, I believe he
came to vagina monologues, Iand he wrote me afterwards and
said some very, very charitablethings.
And then he saw me in GeraldineO'Connor, did a production of
Carnival Messiah, yeah, which Iwas in as well, and again we

(01:30:35):
connected.
So it was a.
It was a creator to creator and,of course, to call myself a
creator in line with PeterMinchell is not a thing, but he
saw it that way and you know hehas his form of art, which we
all know.
For me, I think, my thing iswith words, it's not with

(01:30:55):
singing.
I can't draw.
I don't paint.
There's something aboutlanguage and the way I use that
to connect with people and toconvey things and to you know
make sense bring out emotionsand stuff and that connected
with him right and so we becameclose and to this day that's my

(01:31:17):
boy.
We talk all the time we there'snot a week goes by that we're
not in email communication.
That is nice.
It's lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:31:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Somebody who I feel like Iwould love to see more done for
and around the legacy of peoplelike them.
You know, as you say, I livelistening in 90.
You know, so much times weallow legacies to go by in the
Caribbean, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
You know, I mean people would say everywhere,
like I don't know if any of thegreat European artists were
celebrated in their time.
It's often this case with artand we have an undercurrent
where we can say, intellectuallyart is important for the
culture, right, but then wedon't act as if it is, we don't
invest in it in the same way.
We don't support artists in thesame way, but there is something

(01:32:05):
very essential that, as humanbeings, allows us to grow to
think, that gives us vision,right Ideas, that gives us an
understanding of who we are,that then allows us to navigate
this world which art brings tous.
And if we appreciated it morein our actions, then you might

(01:32:27):
see more of the legacycelebration.

Speaker 1 (01:32:30):
Yeah, um, you know, in a way, people, everybody
going about their own businessand they're saying, yeah, that's
nice to have, I'm glad it'sthere yeah, I heard lou maybe it
was lou who had described it aslike, sometimes you reduce the
arts and you just say, okay, youjust call it culture, we call
it entertainment, so that itdoesn't seem as though.
But if people like yourexamples of it, you know there's

(01:32:51):
not.
It's not a separation betweenthe two.
It's not an artist who lives inthis, in this place, or a
corporate person, or it's justone one people, which is a
beautiful thing that we haveyeah, and, and we're all
creative in some way shape orform.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
And when we tap into that, you know cognitive
development, all of that butbecoming our biggest, most
powerful, beautiful selves atFacebook.
I'm saying Facebook because I'mjust framing the time, True,
which is before we became meta.
Right, we had on our campus artstudios, music rooms, places

(01:33:26):
where you could go woodshop,yeah, when you could go and cut
and build things, and peoplewould say what is this doing in
a tech company?
And I said because we recognizethat that creativity is going
to help with innovation.
That is a very concrete exampleof where you're supporting the
creativity you're supporting theart, because you're

(01:33:47):
understanding what it does forthe whole person.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
Gotcha, and if they are the edge of innovation, we
must benefit from it.
That's right, gotcha, gotcha.
Now more pictures.
I'd ask about, you know, peoplewho are next to me, because
some people who I admire greatly, I see you casually putting up
posts and putting captionssaying listening to Andrea
Bocelli Random, random, what iscoming about.
Is your friend too.
Like Minchell, I need tounderstand.
You're becoming the mostinteresting person I've ever met

(01:34:13):
.
What is the connection?
How do you reach?

Speaker 2 (01:34:15):
that.
So the connection to AndreaBocelli is that Bocelli is a
blind, of course, opera singer,who is a tech lover, who uses
these Ray-Ban meta glasses, andthe glasses have become a real
godsend for blind people becauseof the integration with the AI

(01:34:37):
and what it can do.
You know describe yoursurroundings, read the menu,
read your mail, tell you whatcurrency in in your hand, like
all of these things that blindpeople before would have
depended on a number of humanbeing for, or an app in their
hand, and so we had a connectionthere and, um, I went to do
some fun stuff with the glasseswith him yeah, so yeah so live.

(01:34:59):
Translation is one of the thingsso gotcha, gotcha he's speaking
in italian and I'm speaking inEnglish and the glasses is
translating.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
I see All that was happening, I understand.

Speaker 2 (01:35:08):
So whatever he said in Italian, I would hear it said
in English, and when I said inEnglish, he would hear it said
in Italian.
So, we could converse.
I mean, things like this justcould not exist before this
technology.
Imagine that right.

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
I remember one time there was an app that was
launched.
It was almost like voluntary.
You could download it andsomebody could see, and somebody
who was blind could like ifthey needed help seeing
something or partial vision.
Your girl would ring on yourphone, it would come up and I
could see what the person waslooking at so I got one call all
the time and there was somebodywho was trying to turn on the
PlayStation Like something wasstuck.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Do you know if it was called Be my Eyes, was it Be my
Eyes?
It might have been.
Be my Eyes is a partner of usat Meta, I see, and so the Meta
Ray Band we partner with Be myEyes, be my Eyes has 8 million
volunteers all over the worldwho are sighted, and so, through

(01:36:02):
the use of that hand, blindpeople really need use of both
hands to know your surroundings.
You might have a guide dog, youmight have a cane, so having
something that's sitting on yourhead and then, wherever you
turn your head, it's going.
Not like with the phone.
Often they don't know ifthey're pointing it in the right
direction.

(01:36:23):
But with the glasses.
Yes, there's what's called povpoint of view calling, right, so
you can just command it withyour voice and say call a
volunteer, yeah, and it willdial in.
It will get a volunteersomewhere and then it will
connect through and thevolunteer can see exactly what
they're seeing.
Help them, you know, in thegrocery they're getting dressed.
They want to know where my blueshirt that matching yeah and so
that's.
But also with the glasses.
Now you can call your friend,your partner on WhatsApp and get

(01:36:46):
point of view calling.
So instead of a strangervolunteer you can have a friend
or family member.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
And then the AI now can help.
The AI can tell you what's infront of you too.

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
Of course, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:57):
So that gets better and better.

Speaker 1 (01:36:58):
Yeah, getting better.
Yeah, yeah, I suppose.
Yes, we have ai that helpingyou on your day-to-day.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
If you need somebody to get them, yes, so butchelli
and I were vibing on the glassesand you don't find out
something.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
You should be cool.
You're just cool.
You're just because he, to me,is one of.
I mean to the world.

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):
Everybody is a person everybody is a person and they
have the same issues you haveand they have family members
that in trouble and they havefamily members that are in
trouble and they have anxietyand they didn't sleep last night
and they're going to the toiletthe same way you go into it Got
it.
So they're all people and youknow, some people get more
famous than others.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
But Got it.
Got it Like you.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
Me Not in that category.

Speaker 3 (01:37:39):
The person I fanned out on, the only one ever was
Stevie Wonder.

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
You met Stevie Wonder too.
Same thing With glasses.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
We talked about the glasses, yes, but I met him at
an assistive tech conference andhe's the only person in the
whole world I ever wanted tomeet yeah, consciously, my whole
life I wanted to meet StevieWonderanda.
I just wanted to tell him thankyou for all the joy he has
brought to my life.
And then, you know what, Ididn't even get to say it
because he was so charming andhe just took over and he

(01:38:10):
controlled the wholeconversation and I forgot, and
it ended with him and I singinga duet together really recorded
and doing well, I was too in itto record it and foolishly,
because I had only glasses.
I could have recorded, but Iwas so lost in the moment.
Because just as I was leaving hesaid wait Maxine.
And then he goes.
I know this little girl, hername is Maxine and the boys

(01:38:33):
started singing Shakadima'sEmployers about Maxine and I was
like whose beauty is a bunch ofrubbers, can you imagine that?
And the next thing I know, wegoing murder.
She wrote which Stevie Wonder,so that was a.

Speaker 1 (01:38:48):
I love it.
That was an exceptional.
Oh.
You should record that and sendthat to mommy and tell mommy I
can sing, I know, I know, Allright.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Singing was really high for you, not that it was
the fact of it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:58):
I can imagine he's so clever right.
I see so much with him all day.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
So he's another big tech person.

Speaker 1 (01:39:06):
Yeah, love tech.
I see, I see, I see I love it.
So now I could segue intoFacebook, the Facebook thing.

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
How did I even end up there.

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
Yeah, A lot of Trinidadians say how did you end
up on Facebook?

Speaker 2 (01:39:19):
Everybody wants to know how you get through.
I had a really bad day at work.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
Right, were you working all the time?

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
I was working at a law firm in New York.

Speaker 1 (01:39:27):
Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:28):
And came home and said now, boy, rock bottom, I
can't do this, yeah, anythingelse.
And Facebook had advertised onLinkedIn this position.
So there's a kind of likestep-by-step People like how to
get a job right.
Like.
First you have to be aware ofits existence.
You have to do the step, youapply right, are you qualified?

(01:39:51):
I was suffering from a thingthat some women suffer from more
than men.
It's going to soundstereotypical, but there's
research behind it which is menmay be more confident, they're
less likely to assume they won'tget something, got it okay.
Uh, they will think you see 10requirements.
Yeah, man, I have all of thatyeah, regardless this time the

(01:40:14):
enumerated requirements right,uh, a woman is more likely
looking and say, oh no, I don'tqualify because I only have six
of those.
Gotcha.
Yeah yeah yeah, but try a.
Thing.

Speaker 1 (01:40:24):
Right, of course Right, so I applied.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
Anyway, I went, I interviewed.
In the course of that I didthink which is a thing people
should do.
Do I know anybody who workshere, or knows somebody who
knows somebody?
I knew somebody who knewsomebody.
Of course, and I called them andI say, listen, I apply for this
job.
You can put in a good word.
And he said I can send yourresume to them, but they ain't

(01:40:48):
sentimental, they'll take a lookat it, but they ain't going to
give you the job because theyknow me, you're not that kind of
party.
Yeah, yeah, I said that's allright, I just want to get looked
at, of course.
Of course I just want theopportunity.
They did that too.
I got an interview and eventhen the interview, the first
round I said, well, I'll lickthat up, boy, but I don't know
if I want this thing Right and Ilike it myself.

(01:41:09):
And then I get a call from thesearch recruiter woman saying,
yeah, you had to go back, youknow.
I said what.
Yeah, they're not sure about Aand b and c.
I see, yeah, and I was likewhat?
I see I mash that thing up.
But again, like you know, theego thing you gotta handle that

(01:41:29):
of course.

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):
And then?

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):
okay.
So these are the things.
And you know, one of the thingswas that I mean I wouldn't even
get, we don't have enough timeto get into all of the elements.
What was one and two and three?
Yeah, but she told me whatthose were and I said, okay,
I'll go back in and focus in onthose things.
And even then I know now thatthey were like oh boy, I skated

(01:41:51):
Once, I was there, I absolutelyproved myself Got it, got it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:56):
What was your original position you went for
at that time?

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
It was something like director of diversity.

Speaker 1 (01:42:02):
Got it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:03):
But I was promoted maybe every year that I was
there till I was chief diversityofficer in very little time.

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Yeah, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
And you know, at the highest echelon, working in the
executive Of course, in therooms, everybody would be yes,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
So at that time, diversity was an attractive job
for you.
Was it the Facebook?
Was it diversity position?
What was it really thatattracted you?

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
I had a bad day at work.
Yeah, that was it, and I neededsomething else.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
I need to show people .

Speaker 2 (01:42:33):
When people see this timeline, they'll never believe
how well I was already doingdiversity work at this law firm
Got it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
You know, it sounds like you was always doing
diversity work.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
Yes, Except when they called me for the job at a law
firm and said would you come anddo diversity?
I said to them what's diversity?
I'd never heard of it.
I know what the word means, butI don't know what it means as a
job Because, as you're right,it was like early days and they
said, man, read up on it on theweekend and come in, you'll be
good.
And I did and I got that job.

(01:43:04):
So I was already doingdiversity, but I had lost
confidence in it.
I had come to feel like this isjust smoke and mirrors.
They say they want change, butnot willing to do the things
that would bring moreopportunity, um, fair systems,
all of that and so I'd lostfaith in it.
And then this Facebook was, forthe first time, looking for a

(01:43:25):
person to come and start and runtheir diversity efforts there.
So I had some experience in it.
But I wasn't.
I was a boy.
So I said you know what?
I can do this for two years.

Speaker 1 (01:43:38):
See how it go.

Speaker 2 (01:43:38):
See how it go and then I wanted to to come back
like move closer to home comeback here yes, here, or at least
close where I got, you, got youum work on things in latin
america and the caribbean, etc.
But then I got there anddiscovered that for all of these
different ponds I have swam inmy life, I didn't know there was
one built just for me yeah.

(01:43:59):
It was the place that was madefor me Serious, when I'd never
felt more.
Oh yeah, this is everything.
This is my thing, this is myjam, To the point where my whole
life people comment on how fastI speak.
Right, when I was a lawyer here, I would go to court and
sometimes the palantyper wouldgo.
What is Maxine Problem?

(01:44:26):
People calling in sick andthing you know, because they had
to write down every word that Italk like this and slow down,
and so my whole life peoplewould do that and again I would
go.
But why I have to slow down,why you can't just think fast.

Speaker 1 (01:44:32):
Yeah, got it, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:33):
Of course that was my problem and I got there.
Everybody talking fast like me,ah, you're home, home.
I was home home and the levelof the problems they were trying
to solve and the way we weresolving problems and the way
feedback went and innovation andit was, it was all.
Yeah.
It was there that somebody verysenior said to me all right,

(01:44:55):
how are we solving racism?
Got it Right.
The fact that we could ask thatquestion.
That's an option.
How are we doing this Of?
Course.
So when you say, you know, Ilike I never had the mindset of
no, or why, did I even try tocreate Caribbean Studies and I
was like, well, because why not?

Speaker 1 (01:45:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a thing to be done.
It's the kind of question youwant to work on.

Speaker 2 (01:45:16):
And so being where that was the attitude of people.
Why couldn't we connect thewhole world?

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
Right, that didn't exist.
I remember explaining to mymother who was like well, what
didn't do at Facebook?
What did they do?
There are people working there.
What All of them?

Speaker 1 (01:45:31):
people.
What did they do there?
I would imagine by thenFacebook is everybody have
Facebook, it would seem likenothing happened.

Speaker 2 (01:45:38):
We were less than a billion people I was 4 billion
and stuff Really and like 70something percent of the people
who are internet connected.

Speaker 1 (01:45:45):
Of course, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
But to be in a place that was looking to do things
that had never been done beforebecause why not?
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that'smy job.

Speaker 1 (01:45:56):
So I had this.
I think I finished Lockjack hadput out this Silicon Valley
tour thing.
So I had this.
Well, I think I finishedLockjack had put out this
Silicon Valley tour thing.
So I said I'll go in on that.
I just wanted to see what itwas.
And we went and we did severaltours.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
Even with a flight connection, you went.

Speaker 1 (01:46:10):
Yeah, wow To Panama.

Speaker 2 (01:46:12):
You leave Miami.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
It was the worst that Panama.
It was the worst, but wereached eventually and we stayed
downtown San Francisco, butevery day we would go into
Silicon Valley and do tours.
We did Google, I think Intel,facebook wasn't allowing tours
at the time, so we just went tothe Facebook sign?

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
Was it during the?

Speaker 1 (01:46:32):
pandemic, was it?
No, this was before thepandemic, but there's this big
sign that we went there and takepictures.
That was the closest we get toFacebook at the time.
But there was one place that wewent to called well, two I
won't talk to you about.
One was Institute of the Future, and they were talking about it
was just a research company,but they were doing these leap
studies, so one of the thingsthat they allowed us to sit in

(01:46:52):
on or to observe was a sessionwhere they were talking about
self-driving cars.
This could be 2015, 16.
Okay, so they were saying thatby 2035, most of the world will
be self-driving cars.
What are the problems that theworld is going to have then?
And I listened to these peopletalk about this thing and I was
amazed that one of the thingsthey came up with was organ

(01:47:12):
transplants, because now youdon't have accidents, you don't
have young people dying in caraccidents, and so that was
they're putting themselves inthere and they say, okay, that
is where we want to put funding,and that was what the whole
thing was about.
But in my little again, notknowing what is diversity or
anything, I watch a listing andof course, we are a little group
from Lockjack.
It's the only people lookingBlack or anything in that space,
and Iron Easy is like okay, so,and I remember one of my

(01:47:36):
thoughts being okay so all thesewhite people, them alone, know
what's going to happen in 2035.
Isn't that your experience whenyou walk into this company the
first time?

Speaker 2 (01:47:45):
Yeah, that makes me think we did.
When we were coming out withthe Metaverse, we did a kind of
promo thing where MarkZuckerberg and myself and a
couple other leaders our avatarswere in a room playing poker
together and we were kind ofshowing people how you could be
present through these avatars,were in a room playing poker
together and we were kind ofshowing people how you could be

(01:48:06):
present through these avatars.
But it's a kind of future sceneand I was there with my band to
nuts in the scene and Iremember so many people
commenting saying black peoplemake it to the future.
This was a proof.
I was the one person in thespaceship, but we make it.
At least we are one, we canstart from there.

Speaker 1 (01:48:22):
That's our.
This was the proof.
I was the one person in thespaceship.
Well, we make it at least Right.
Right, we're good boy, we canstart from there.
That's our start.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we be natural here,
I think we inside.
So yes, there is often theexperience of me, one boy yeah,
boy.
Very rare air.
Mm-hmm.
That said, I'm looking outside,so I can't see me.
I see them, so I am consciousand I'm not conscious.

(01:48:53):
On the one hand, I'm verypresent in the moment.
What's the problem we'reworking on solving here?
So I'm contributing to thatproblem to solve with me out of
it.
I ain't seen me, so I'm notcarrying a lot the.
But should I speak up?
Look at me, how I different inthis thing.
On the other hand, I amconscious, but in a positive

(01:49:17):
direction, of my difference andmy under-representation in this
space, of my difference and myunder-representation in this
space.
And I'm conscious to say well,only lucky you have me, because
if it wasn't for me, we wouldn'tbe getting this particular
perspective.
So, thank goodness, I amdifferent because I can give a

(01:49:38):
different perspective and I'mdifferent in a way that millions
and millions of people in theworld are.
They're just not in this space,they're just not in this area.
And time and again, again, Ihave to say this was the place I
was meant to be.
Their attitude to my differencewas one of appreciation for it.
There were many battles I wouldfight and you know, I would say

(01:50:01):
but we should do this, andmaybe I didn't win that battle.
But people would say you mademe think differently and that
different thinking developstheir mind.
And then how you apply that inanother situation.
You know, things might go in adifferent direction there too,
just because of the presence ofmy different, same things, and
it's not just race and gender,but, coming from a small place,

(01:50:24):
that has been an element of mydiversity, because you know,
look, I work at a place where amillion people is a rounding
error.

Speaker 1 (01:50:32):
Yeah, I guess.
When you're talking billions, Iguess.

Speaker 2 (01:50:36):
But what I see from the perspective of somebody,
from what to them is a smallplace, brings insight Of course
that they might have never seenwithout your presence.
The talk I did at Wharton wascalled Numbers Only Take Us so
Far, the Power of One, and I wastalking then about how we had
to change the way analytics isdone, because analytics focuses

(01:50:56):
on big data sets and thereforewhat you might do is say, well,
unless there are X number ofpeople in this set, we can't
give you insights.
We need a certain number tohave confidence.
What that always does is leaveout the small numbers, but there
may be intense things going onin there that have application
beyond.
That could help all of us.
That's right, and we're notgetting the benefit of it.
So here's another way to doanalytics to get the value from

(01:51:20):
those small data sets.
Right do analytics to get thevalue from those small data sets
right.
And so all of that to say that,yes, I know you walk in those
rooms and you're like wow isonly me, boy, and only white
people in the future.
Um, no, it's not only them inthe future.
Yes, there is an overrepresentation in terms of the
people building the products,white and asian, and but where

(01:51:44):
we can we find the room?
Of course.
To bring in the differentperspectives and you kind of
scale the knowledge too.
Like everybody I've worked withat Meta would say boy, we
learned so much, and now they'retaking that learning.
So they may be in a room wherethere isn't a person who looks
like us.

Speaker 1 (01:51:59):
I understand, yeah, but they have.
I am with you.
I am with you.

Speaker 2 (01:52:08):
That isn't the person who looks like us.
I understand, yeah, but I amwith you, and that only happens
if you are willing to talk, ofcourse.
Speak up, right.
Give it, and I was not atechnical person.
So there were a lot of timesyou're in a technical discussion
and, yes, I might think, isthis going to be stupid?
Because have I completelymisunderstood what's going on
here, what this operating systemis?
Et cetera etc.
So that when I ask this questionand I sometimes that happens
and I consciously say, all right, what's the worst that could

(01:52:29):
happen?
Yeah right, ask a stupidquestion.
Cool people is asking questionsall the time right and nine
times out of ten you ask aquestion and maybe it's stupid,
but somebody learns the factthat you're asking that question
.
Of course, teachers, yeah, ofcourse, and maybe we's stupid,
but somebody learns the factthat you're asking that question
of course teaches.
Yeah, of course maybe weweren't as clear.

Speaker 1 (01:52:47):
Yeah you know, yeah, the fact that I've never thought
of it that way.
People take away that learning.
It's important.
The second place I went to wasyou bring up young Asians is
where I had a company calledPlug and Play.
It was like a businessincubator.
So when we went there they haveall these people who have all
these brilliant ideas and wewere able to see like a pitch
session where they come to talkabout their ideas for whatever

(01:53:08):
round of funding.
They're doing almostexclusively young asian boy men
and, um, almost exclusivelywhite investors too.
So I wonder sometimes if, uh,when, positions like those
created and companies like those?
I like, mommy, sometimes I justbe fascinated.
My hair.
Is that people working?
They always do.
I kind of want to know.
When I went to, when we didthis one google, everybody was

(01:53:28):
swimming in a pool or playingpiano somewhere.

Speaker 3 (01:53:30):
I was like this way, I don't work, nobody working at
all.

Speaker 1 (01:53:32):
Yeah but, uh, when isn't that the companies
facebook and otherwise, fromyour experience conscious of
this and they're trying to makeefforts to diversify it in terms
of how they hire and the ideasthat?

Speaker 2 (01:53:43):
they look at.
That was part of what I wasdoing as the chief diversity
officer at that point in timeconsciously looking at what is
the makeup, because we wantcognitively diverse teams.
If you end up with too much ofsomething, you're losing out on
somebody perspective.
Um, and so, yes, that that waspart of oh and were trying to do
.

Speaker 1 (01:54:02):
And you say what's doing right.
But even when you explain yourrole here now, you know it feels
very, very similar to me, to behonest, because you're in a
space where you're constantlythinking of okay, how do we get
everybody included, how do wemake this available for all
people to solve the differentproblems?
It sounds very, very similar.

Speaker 2 (01:54:18):
Some of the principles are the same.
There's a different focus.
I'm 100 focused on product now,right, when I would have been
focused before on things likerecruiting of course I see
people make sense uh, I have alittle bit still in people
trying to make sure we have fairsystems to support the people
who are there got it.
But now this is like how isthis product working?

Speaker 1 (01:54:40):
so, moving from people to product, you're
enjoying it still.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
I'm learning again.

Speaker 1 (01:54:46):
So you will be enjoying it.
There is a new space.

Speaker 2 (01:54:48):
Enjoying and then sometimes scared.
I'm not a technical person andnow you know, the people I'm
spending most time with areengineers and designers and
people who understand how tobuild a product and what is the
system and what's the differencebetween this and that.
So it's like a whole new area,but that's exciting, sometimes
challenging.
You know, am I going to saysomething stupid that comes up

(01:55:11):
more often if you're in a newarea?
I guess.
And what do I have to learn?
But boy, I good to askquestions.
I real good to ask questions.
Find the people who you knowand I could ask this person this
question and they're going tothink I'm stupid.
But also try and figure it outtoo.
You see Meta AI.
Meta AI being used by more thana billion people now, which is

(01:55:34):
free in WhatsApp.
I'm having conversations inWhatsApp.
Yesterday I was at thisconference.
Somebody asked a question inthe audience.
When I'm in the break, I ask inMeta AI the answer to the
question.
Yeah.
And with context, it is able togive me right and I will say
give me sources that I canverify.
So I'm learning constantly.

Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
Yeah, me too, because I just see this thing come up
on my WhatsApp the other day.
I was like wait, what's?
Happening here?
Yeah, because a lot of timeslike I'm not sure if it's your
experience abroad, but a lot ofpeople when they say AI, they
just say chat GPC.

Speaker 2 (01:56:05):
So as your direct competitor, yes, yes, there's a
fundamental difference in thatour models are open source,
which means that we give it awayfor free and anybody can then
build on our models.
You're not paying a fee, youknow you have those tiers, Of
course tiers.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
Yeah, and you need it .

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
So that's one of the differences.
But yeah, it's leveraging AIfor contextual information and
conversation and all that.
I did a little demo yesterdayat the AmCham conference where I
had the glasses on Sure.
The glasses have the AI in them, and I was talking about the

(01:56:47):
fact that you could build.
If you were a restaurant inTrinidad, you could build for
free on the Lama model, achatbot that would personalize
where.
You would feed it with yourmenu options and what
distinguishes you, so that's agood question.
You could give the data aboutyour particular customers and so
when customers are using thisnow, it feels like so much of a
better experience Got it.

(01:57:07):
And as I was doing that, I saidto the glasses hey, mehta, tell
me what a doubles is inTrinidad, and the whole audience
could hear it saying a doublesis a food made with a little bit
bara, with para, and going onabout the channel and the
running this.
And then I said tell me where Icould find a good doubles
internet.
And it gave me two goodsuggestions one on saddle road,

(01:57:28):
one somewhere else.
Right, so all of that to saythat the learning am I excited?
Am I think it's a whole newlearning space for me?
How does this technology work?
yeah how can we get it to workfor everyone?
How can we get it to bringvalue?
And I have more opportunitiesof places to learn from, because
the technology is helping metoo.

Speaker 1 (01:57:47):
I guess.
Yes, that's what I'm saying,I'm asking it questions about
this new space.

Speaker 2 (01:57:52):
So, I don't have to go to people all the time and
embarrass myself.
There's lots of ways to learn.

Speaker 1 (01:57:58):
So one of my plans when I asked you to come here
was so that you could tell youngboys and girls in Trinidad like
, how is girl working Facebook?
So far, my answer is religious.
Go for it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:06):
No man Tell me Excellence buys you freedom and
power.
Everything I did, I did with100% yeah.
So it's not like they hired mebecause I was a mediocre person
in a job before that Right.
Or I didn't end up where I wasbecause I was a mediocre lawyer

(01:58:27):
or whatever.
Like it's a hundred percent.
I'm learning all the time andthat combination then gets me
the next opportunity.
But I'm also taking risks.
I'm also going for things, notassuming that door is closed to
me.
I know of a tech company in theUS who has found over the last

(01:58:51):
two years a 14,000% increase inpeople applying for jobs there
from Trinidad Software engineers.
Really, that's right.
So they're here in Trinidad andthey're applying.

Speaker 1 (01:59:04):
They can do it remotely, I see For jobs from
these places.

Speaker 2 (01:59:08):
We have the talent.
You have to know, like A,you're at the top of your game,
right, and then B, where are theopportunities?
So, how you get the job, youhave to know the opportunities,
but you have to be doing well,of course, and then you had to
shoot your shot.
I just don't think I don't havea linear path.
You know my best friend heregrowing up he always wanted to

(01:59:29):
be a doctor.
That's all he ever wanted to do, and I used to be jealous of
him because he set out on thatpath from day one and there were
so many times a long man I saidbut where am I, boy?

Speaker 1 (01:59:38):
yeah, and I don't know where I want to go next.
I don't even have a target.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
Yeah, you'll never think so but my thing was I know
I want to learn something elsesure, sure and so my thing was
chasing learning and justice yes, got it.
Yeah, that's a common threadmaking the world more fair, yeah
but that can take you into theprinciples, but I didn't have a
end point right so I would sayto the boys and the girls
looking for how do I get a jobat Facebook?

(02:00:03):
Well, what are the skills you'redeveloping?
Is it the type of skills thatMeta is looking for?
Sure, I mean, if you werecoming up now and had a facility
for math and data and science,I would say, boy, you see, ai,
that's the way.
What, what?
Everybody looking, of course,for AI specialist.

Speaker 1 (02:00:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:00:24):
But then people are still looking for great
everything else.
Yeah.
And so you do your best at whatyou do.
I would say, make it a placewhere, a space that you feel you
are getting a reward from, andso my reward was always am I
learning here?
Sure, somebody else it might bea subject matter.

Speaker 1 (02:00:44):
Got it.

Speaker 2 (02:00:44):
All right, I look at musicians and artists and I'm
fascinated by them and wheretheir end is.
They may not want to come andwork at Meta, of course, right,
so don't come and work at Meta,just because it's a.

Speaker 1 (02:00:55):
Thing.

Speaker 2 (02:00:56):
Think about what your is, what fills you yeah, find
your joy.

Speaker 1 (02:00:59):
That's right, gotcha, gotcha.
I'd ask you one more questionbefore you go, because these
positions again, when I go inthere I guess I see in a glimpse
of what a day looks like when atrainee and of course, when we
go to these companies, all thetrainees would.
They come and they talk to meand they feed us.
Well, all these sort of freekitchens that you'll have all
over the place and so on, butit's ridiculous.
It's known for being in siliconvalley in particular very, very

(02:01:20):
high pressure jobs.
How do you manage thatpersonally, the pressure yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:01:27):
I guess my pressure comes from two places.
I work with incrediblybrilliant people and you can
feel the pressure of oh my gosh,am I smart enough?
Am I going to say a stupidthing?
Can I keep up?
And boy?
The way I deal with that is tokeep myself learning.

(02:01:48):
The more I know, the moreconfident I feel, and you have
to go outside of the bounds tolearn.
I'm listening to podcasts on AI, I'm reading books on it.
I need to get myself in aposition where I don't feel that
stress as much, because I feelmore confident and competent.
And then the other thing is Ihappen to work at a place where

(02:02:12):
the impact of what we do is sosignificant on the world.
Every decision we make impactsthe whole world.

Speaker 3 (02:02:18):
That's a mind-blowing thing thing and I can feel like
a lot of responsibility.

Speaker 2 (02:02:22):
Yeah and I allow myself to know that all we can
do is do the best, and for methe best is making thoughtful
decisions right, not willy-nillythinking through pros and the
cons and the consequences now.
To do that you have to haveenough information.
You gotta prepare yourself todo that and then doing the best.
And if it happened, to haveenough information Of course you
have to prepare yourself to dothat Mm-hmm, and then doing your

(02:02:43):
best and if it happened to havebeen the wrong decision, yeah,
correct, give yourself somegrace, mm-hmm.
So the pressure you know somedifferent characteristics of the
pressure, for sure, and thenyou ground yourself in who you
are.
I'm here a lot now because thisyear I felt I needed community
more.
Yeah, I'm here a lot now becausethis year I felt I needed
community more, yeah, and soI've come back to Trinidad more

(02:03:03):
this year than I have in thelast 10 years, except for
Carnival, where I'm alwayspresent.

Speaker 1 (02:03:08):
Oh yeah, carnival baby, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:03:10):
Seeing heavy soaker in Instagram and things my joy
and my connection and that isthe happiest I've ever been is
every single Carnival.
Yeah, so, no matter where youwork, non-negotiable happiest
I've ever been is every singlecarnival.

Speaker 1 (02:03:20):
Yeah, so no matter where you work, non-negotiable.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (02:03:24):
All of them tell the story of when I was interviewing
and thing and I said one thingyou'll have to know is if I take
this job In an interview.

Speaker 1 (02:03:31):
Absolutely, maxine.
You have belly years, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:03:34):
Other people say to me too why do you post about
carnival?
They're going to have to lookat my work and see whether it's
serious or not.
Of course, not this.
No, I want people to knowyou're entitled to joy too, yeah
, yeah.
So I've come more often becauseI'm at a point where, okay, I

(02:03:54):
need this.
So part of dealing withdistress is figuring out what
you need.
For me, community Got it Isimportant.
Community is important and thisconnection to this place, and
so giving yourself that too,what you need.
You know you don't have to stayin distress.
Just there's no honor in that.
Think about what you need.
Ask for help.

Speaker 1 (02:04:14):
Gotcha, and you did say that you plan to be home
more often.

Speaker 2 (02:04:18):
Well, I have been this year.

Speaker 1 (02:04:19):
Yeah, that's what it was.
I'm glad that I kept you home.
It was quite by coincidence.
I was telling them before youstarted that I'd just say you
know what, maybe I would justask and it was such great timing
.
It was perfect.
When you said next week, I waslike, why not?

Speaker 2 (02:04:33):
Yeah, man, we manifest that.

Speaker 1 (02:04:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did so I appreciate you
coming to sharing so openly onthese things too, and if you're
back anytime, anytime, wherever,it is.

Speaker 2 (02:04:43):
You're tired of hearing me talk now.

Speaker 1 (02:04:44):
No tired, it's only because they go pour you out of
here.
They always come in to pour meout, you know but I think it was
great.
I think it's really, reallyhelpful.
You are, you know, when we seeone of us national holiday, you
know they say boy Maxine Day Ifthey don't have so much holidays
.

Speaker 2 (02:05:02):
You're not probably going to get one.
If you do that, you're going tosink me the amount of people
calling me to fix their Facebook, their Instagram, to get a blue
tick.
I ain't even going to answer.

Speaker 1 (02:05:09):
We're going to ask you about the boys and girls
coming.

Speaker 2 (02:05:16):
I thought you was going to say well, hey, tr that
Of course I want you to haveequal opportunity.

Speaker 1 (02:05:20):
Got it, got it.

Speaker 2 (02:05:22):
We got to come with the goods.

Speaker 1 (02:05:23):
Got it, got it, got it, got it.
Thanks a million, maxine.
It was a pleasure, I appreciateit.

Speaker 2 (02:05:26):
We have a bountiful, beautiful country and I want
people to invest in it so thatwe can live our best lives
together.

Speaker 1 (02:05:31):
Good, thanks very much.
Outro Music.

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Episode 240 | Maxine Williams

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 240 | Maxine Williams