March 12, 2025 • 27 mins
Host John Randolph kicks off a special two part conversation with Allan Fisher, president and founder of Premier Financial Search, on Episode 63 of CPA Life. Continuing the theme of recruiting in the profession, they explore the ongoing transformation in public accounting, focusing on building a sustainable, people-centric work culture. Allan’s “unconventionally conventional” path to recruiting did take him through work as an accountant, so as a recruiter, he is able to frame things “from the other side.” He discusses how firms that have adapted to retain talent in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic have seen better talent acquisition and lower turnover, emphasizing empathetic leadership and enhanced benefits, and stressing that it’s not enough to just show up to an interview with a candidate anymore—you need to send your best. This all ties into the necessity for a progressive approach to recruitment, ensuring firms attract and maintain top talent by continuously improving their practices and culture.
Get the full show notes and more resources at CPALifePodcast.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Thanks for tuning in to CPA life wherewe taught culture and growth with folks that are going against the grain in
an industry that has been stuck witha, we've always done it that way.
Mindset.
For far too long, join hostJohn Randolph and learn how a sustainable, family-friendly career
in public accounting doesn't haveto be the exception to the rule.
(00:24):
Welcome to CPA Life.
Hey everybody.
We are back with another episode ofthe CPA Life Podcast, the podcast that shines a bright light on the
public accounting space and some ofthe leaders and insiders that are
aggressively working to create a morepeople-centric, modern minded culture.
(00:45):
Versus the century old.
We've always done it likethat culture that's permeated the industry for a long time.
And today we are continuing a seriesthat we started a couple of weeks ago where we're spending time speaking
with other recruiters and talentacquisition professionals who haven't.
Intimate knowledge of the industrybecause this is the industry segment
(01:05):
that they have built a businessaround supporting for multiple years.
And we are joined today by Allan Fisher,who's the president and founder of Premier Financial Search, which is an
executive recruiting and staffing firmthat for the last 23 years, has focused
on building partnerships and providingsolutions to CPA firms across the country.
Allan, welcome to the show.
(01:26):
Thanks for having me.
We're gonna be digging into a lot ofdifferent topics that we've kind of
emailed back and forth about, and I can'twait to hear your take on some things.
Something tells me that we're probablygonna share some similar mindset and thought process as we go through that.
But one of the things that we typicallylike to do before we really dig into a lot of the topics that we're gonna
talk about is give folks a little bitof the flavor of your background and
(01:50):
how you arrived at the point of yourcareer where you are today, because.
If you are like most folks,recruiting in the talent space was
not something that you probablyset out to do 20 plus years ago.
Correct?
Absolutely.
Fell into it like most of us.
Yep.
So tell me kind of where yourcareer started and how you took a left turn and went down this path.
(02:11):
I was an accountant in a house for apublicly held company that had no revenue.
So this was during the.com boom.
And you could see the writing on the wallin the accounting department that without earnings, without revenues, my job as
well as the jobs of a lot of other people,were gonna disappear at some point soon.
So I, I was referred to arecruiter who could helped me find my next accounting job.
(02:37):
And my background, mydegree is in marketing.
So they said, you know, with your degreein marketing and you're a couple of years in accounting, you'd be a great recruiter.
And I had no idea what it was.
I just knew that it wasn't accounting.
Um, and I was at a point in mylife where if I fell completely
flat, it would've been okay becausethe year before, I think I made.
(02:59):
38,000. So they were offeringme a draw of 2,500 a month.
And so knowing that I couldalmost replicate my salary plus opportunity for commission I was in.
And of course I had no ideawhat the profession was.
And within my first six weeks,the four people in the office,
(03:21):
which was another executiverecruiter, an outside salesperson.
Branch manager and a staffingperson all quit or were fired.
And I was there alone,but not gonna give up.
I had made a decision that I wasn'tgonna go back to accounting and sort of
a blessing in disguise that everybodyleft because it was sink or swim.
(03:42):
Mm-hmm.
And I decided I was gonna swim.
It, it's amazing how those trying momentsreally kind of are, are defining for us.
You know, people always laugh whenI tell 'em I, my first job outta college, I have a degree in journalism.
Kinda like you kind of fell intothis, but my first full year as a writer, I made $14,000.
So when I moved into recruiting,I thought there's no way I'm gonna make less than that.
(04:05):
I know I'm gonna make more than that, butI didn't know until mid part of the first day it was a hundred percent commission.
I just assumed they're notpaying me less than 14,000.
And when I found out it wasstraight commission, you know, I
sat down with my boss and said,Hey, I, I will be back tomorrow.
I gotta go figure out whatI'm gonna do in the interim.
(04:26):
And it's amazing how when you, you know,the old adage, the story of burning your boats, it's amazing when that happens.
You know, in your case, peoplequitting it's sink or swim.
Yep.
There's not a whole lot of options.
So talk to me about kind of that firstyear and how you were able to figure
things out in an environment where youwere pretty much the last man standing.
(04:46):
I was really fortunate that we had, soI worked for a national staffing firm.
And we had five offices in my region,which is Southern California, and my area manager at the time said,
if you promise not to quit, I'llcome to your office a day a week.
You come to my office a day aweek, and then by phone we'll assign a couple of other mentors.
(05:09):
And so she did exactly what she said.
She came to the office, shespent time, she mentored me.
She could see that Iwas a willing student.
Had two other mentors and it was the same.
It was, look, as long as you askgood questions, as long as you don't
give up, as long as you're willingto take the advice that we give.
(05:31):
You can push back if you think that whatwe're saying is completely unrealistic.
But these were seasoned veterans.
They all had 20 years of experienceand for me, I was in awe.
I was 26 at the time.
They had unbelievableexperience and success.
I. And so when, I'm sure you canrelate, John, when I started, we had a phone and an industry guide.
(05:55):
We didn't even have a phone book.
It was just a big, thick yellowbook of companies in certain industries laid out by SIC code.
Yes.
And so I came in wherewe had a fax machine.
We weren't even on email yet.
And so the people that I started with,they were telling me stories about how they would send resumes in the mail.
(06:15):
They would put a resume in the mailand then they would call three days later to say, Hey, did you get it?
And we were thinking of how advancedwe were because we had a fax machine
and you know, we, we'd get a, a receiptsaying that the fax went through.
I was fortunate.
So we started, it wasaccounting and finance.
And I was too early on to evenknow that there was a difference between accounting and finance.
(06:39):
But I was in a building where it wasalmost all CPA firms and we had three
mid-size CPA firms in the buildingand I was the first one in the office.
I was the last one to leave.
And during tax season, just realizedI'm seeing these same people here at six 30 in the morning and at eight
o'clock at night that, you know,there, there must be something to that.
(07:02):
There was somebody who Imet in the parking garage.
It was just one of those conversationswhere, you know, I see you here and you're working 14 hours a day every day.
What is it that you do?
And she said, I'm a tax senior and Iwork at the firm in the third floor.
She said, what do you do?
I'm a recruiter and a couple of days laterwe're in the elevator together and she hands me her resume and says, call me.
(07:28):
She had three years of experienceand she worked at what was considered a top 50 firm in Los Angeles, and
she said, all I care about is Iwanna work at a firm that's bigger.
And so I took out the LABusiness Journal Book of Lists.
She worked for the number,call it 47 firm in la.
I just called firms one through46, which of course included, it was back then it was the Big Six.
(07:52):
Yeah.
I'm still waiting on a return phone callfrom the managing partner of Deloitte.
But as I made my way down that list, Iwas getting calls back, so I was leaving a lot of voicemails, and by the time I
was done, I had six firms that said, I'dlike to know more about your candidate.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, six out of 46 wasa pretty amazing ratio.
(08:15):
What I recognized was partners,partners will respond.
The partners, at least in LA, are verymuch what you see is what you get.
My voicemail is pretty much to the point.
I'm representing a candidate withthree years working at a top 50
firm, looking for a larger firm, andthey're in touch with the market.
So what I said resonated with them.
(08:37):
The candidate went on all sixinterviews, ended up with three offers, and had a 25% salary increase.
Wow.
And so not only was I hooked onrecruiting, but I think I realized there's something about partners that their
style just works really well with mine,which is what you see is what you get.
(08:58):
Yeah.
And as long as you're honest aboutwhat you've got, they'll respond.
Yep.
And that was the beginning.
So you know, that happened maybe sixmonths into my recruiting career.
I was in a deficit up to that point'cause withdraw versus commission uhhuh and very soon I was back in the black.
And you know, from that point onnine months in, never looked back.
(09:21):
And I knew it was at the ninemonth mark where I knew I will be a recruiter for the rest of my career.
I.
It is amazing when you, when you havesome success in this business, anytime I interview people, inevitably the
question comes up sometimes of, Hey,what are the highs and what are the lows?
And I'll always tellpeople, here's the highs.
You're gonna walk out of this officesometimes, and you're gonna say, I can't believe I get paid to do this.
(09:47):
And then there's gonna be daysthat are the lows that you're gonna
walk out and you're gonna say, theydon't pay me enough to do this.
Yeah.
And, and both of those thingscoexist on a daily basis.
Yes, they do.
They, they absolutely do.
I, uh, as a long-term person in thisbusiness, and I was sitting at the table one night talking to my daughters.
(10:07):
They're older now, but they were littleand they were old enough to start to understand what dad did for a living.
And one of my girls asked me, dad,what do you love about your job?
And I said.
Absolutely love dealing with people.
Absolutely love the fact thatyou can take somebody and put them in a better position.
That gives them more opportunity tocreate for their family a better life.
(10:27):
You also can impact an organizationthat's got a hole that needs filling,
and this person could answer problemsthat could take 'em to the next level.
Absolutely love the fact that weget to deal with people and do that.
My other daughter said, dad,what do you hate about your job?
And I said, we have to deal with people.
That's, there's a double-edged swordto this that I think anybody that deals with the public sector, even our clients,
(10:50):
CPAs, there's probably a little bit oftruth in that in their life as well.
Wouldn't you agree?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's the best of all things, andit's the worst of all things.
But you nailed it, that there's something.
Amazingly gratifying about making a goodplacement because you know that you're improving somebody's life, usually in, in
(11:10):
more than one aspect, whether it's shortercommute, more money, greater partner track opportunity, different leadership.
Maybe it's a niche that theywant to get involved in.
And at the same time,potentially you found the next star, the next partner mm-hmm.
For the firm that you're working with.
Yep.
Years before I went into recruiting,I worked at a car audio store.
(11:33):
So we sold car stereos and while the buyermay get a lot of love and satisfaction out of his new six disc changer in his car.
That stereo gets nothing out ofthe relationship with the consumer.
So absolutely.
Now we're able to really changethe lives of people on both sides.
You're absolutely right.
(11:53):
The ability to impact multiple peoplein the midst of working together and building those relationships.
So there's a lot of things that we'vemessaged back and forth that I want to dig into and kind of get your take
on in the industry because there's,there's been a lot of movement.
Over the last six years, five years,six years, and definitely in the last two to three within the space.
(12:14):
Private equity coming in a more modernminded mindset that I think has to be
in place today if you want to attractthe talent that's out there today.
But one of the questions I wanted toask you is when you look at what's going on the desk of not only you, but.
The 10 people on your team, whatare some things that you're seeing that your clients are doing from
(12:39):
well to exceptionally well thatare somewhat setting them apart in the acquisition and retention game?
Because right now it'sreally a two-sided coin.
You know, for years, I think thatleadership and public accounting just
accepted the fact that, hey, we'regonna have 18, 20, 25, 30% turnover.
The problem with that today is there'snot as many people flowing in the front
(13:00):
door as they're going out the backdoor, if that's still what's going on.
So it's a necessity for firms ofwork on both sides of that equation and do 'em both exceptionally well.
What are some things that you areseeing that your clients are doing or
that you're advising your clients todo to begin to set them up to succeed?
Bringing people in and holdingonto what's there as well as the new people coming in the door.
(13:21):
Yeah, that's, I love that question.
We'll start with retention.
You're right about the 18 to 20% turnoverthat has been, it's been accepted.
Yeah.
And we could argue whyhas it just been accepted?
But that's been the status quo.
That changed 2021, definitely 2022.
Mm-hmm.
Where I think firms still acceptedthat was gonna be the case.
(13:45):
And of course we had what the world iscalling the Great Resignation, which probably peaked late 21, early 22.
Then what happened in 2022 is firmssaid it, it's becoming way too expensive for us to allow this to continue.
And during the early days of Covid,a lot of firms found themselves
(14:05):
in a position of becoming veryempathetic towards their employees.
Mm-hmm.
So it really pushed firms tobecome understanding about the
human condition first in termsof what's going on medically.
Are there people at ourfirm who've had covid?
What about their loved ones?
Really understanding whether it wasmask, mandates, vaccinations, but really trying to be beyond the right
(14:31):
side of any of those gray areas, butalso understanding there were certain
people that just couldn't come back tothe office because they were caring for.
Loved ones.
They had, their kids were doingschool via Zoom, and it was really
just trying to be the understandingsympathetic and empathetic employers.
Yep.
And that might have been the first timethat employees really got a glimpse into their, their firm's management philosophy.
(14:58):
Prior to that you didn't knowand you really didn't care.
But this was really the first point.
I would say it was a pointof inflection in the market.
Mm-hmm.
And most firms did a phenomenaljob when people would resign.
A lot of firms were caught offguard and they said, wait a minute,
we didn't understand some of thosethings that were on your mind.
(15:21):
Give us the opportunity to course correct.
Now, any recruiter prior to Covidcould give you a list of reasons, and I think if you were to search counter
offer and resignation on Google, youprobably get a trillion responses.
We're really good at havinga comeback for why you should never accept a counter offer.
(15:43):
Yep.
22 and 23, I would say our arguments weremoot because there were a lot of firms that that prior did not really have an
understanding of where the shortcomingswere, whether it was with salary.
I. Benefits and firms did a phenomenaljob of making things better.
Mm-hmm.
So in 21 and 22, that was thefirst time in my career I ever saw firms give market adjustments.
(16:10):
So that's totally separatefrom salary increases.
These were market adjustments.
This is a one time you are undermarket, we're gonna increase
you so that the playing fieldis more level at the same time.
Firms increased their benefitofferings to be more competitive.
They increased their 401k contributions.
(16:32):
Firms were 0%.
They went to two, they went to threefirms that were at three, one to
five better medical firms that neverhad maternity and paternity leave.
Were creating those plans and a listof other benefits to just make the firm a really desirable place to work.
(16:53):
At the same time we started to have alittle bit of fear about a recession.
And of course, inflation and costof living were raging outta control.
And so attrition probablyhit an all time low.
Mm-hmm.
So we went from the great resignation towhat people are calling the Great Stay and firms, you know, for the first time.
(17:16):
They felt we are doing all the thingsnecessary to become a, a destination of choice and people want to stay.
So I think if you were to lookacross the industry, let's forget
about the big four, where theyhave attrition for other reasons.
But if you were to look acrossthe industry attrition in 23 and 24 might have been about 5%.
(17:37):
So on the retention front,firms did a really good job.
Mm-hmm.
That's starting to change this here.
You can't have a situation whereattrition is three to 5% in a
profession where historicallythere is an upper out mentality.
Exactly.
So in serving a lot of my clients and mejust being able to do a virtual x-ray over most firms, we have under performers in
(18:05):
the market and the market I would describeas inefficient in an efficient market, we have a normal amount of attrition.
It creates a little bit of acarousel effect where people leave one firm to go to another.
Those seats are filled by people thatfind that firm to be a better option.
Mm-hmm.
But when everybody stays, put, firmsmaybe have the right number of people, but not necessarily the right people.
(18:31):
And what we're seeing now isa push to return to office.
I think firms are trying to figureout how to make sure they have the right people on the bus.
In some cases, they're gonnaallow people to opt out.
So attrition has been great.
I would actually argue attrition'sbeen a little too low on the talent acquisition side.
(18:53):
The biggest selling pointthat firms have is leadership.
I'd
agree.
Culture.
Yep.
Philosophy and HR and talent acquisitionusually does a good job of conveying that.
Nobody conveys it better than leadership.
The firms that still have their partners,even a managing partner involved in the interviews makes a huge difference.
(19:20):
Mm-hmm.
So it, it always puzzled me whena firm's going out to market
and there is an attractive pieceof business that they want.
They'll send their two most dynamicengaging rainmaking partners out to secure that new piece of business.
And when it comes time to bringsomebody in on the market, somebody
(19:41):
who could be a future partner, theysay, well, their time is too valuable.
We'll have people in HR or talentacquisition, maybe A COO get
involved, and I think they'releaving too much to chance.
I would say, let's makesure that we've got the best people available to interview.
And so, so many interviews have gonevirtual, which means the firm really
(20:05):
has an opportunity to showcase whoand what they want the way they want.
Mm-hmm.
Make sure that you've got, uh, arepresentative group on the interview.
I always want to see that there'sboth a male and the female.
Interviewing, um, particularly if you'reinterviewing a female candidate, have a diverse group of people, whether it's
(20:26):
inclusive, whether it's the age of thepeople, but it's also, it has to be people that understand the importance
of interviewing and understandingthe importance of securing talent.
They have to be cheerleaders, they haveto be people that, that can confidently
say why this is a firm of choice, becauseany candidate you're interviewing.
(20:48):
They've got options.
Absolutely.
You know, they, they could interview ata different firm every day for the rest of the year and not run out of options.
Mm-hmm.
So we've got a, in about an hour,we've gotta nail the interview in
that first example of Rainmakingpartners, they've got their pitch down.
Yep.
They know the things to say.
(21:09):
They've done theirresearch on the company.
They are the stars.
But when we approach interviews, wedon't, I. Do they understand the right questions that they should be asking?
Do they understand the right wayto, to make sure that the firm is put in the best possible light?
Are they taking time to lookat the resumes, to know who it is they're interacting with?
(21:31):
Do they look at the education?
Do they look at the other firms?
Do they look for commonalities?
The amount of effort that weput into getting new business.
Is 10 to one the effort that mostfirms put into attracting new talent.
You know, it's interesting you use thatanalogy, Allan, because that's one of the things that I constantly talk to
our clients about the importance ofbeing proactive in the hiring process,
(21:54):
regardless of what's going on insidethe four walls of your organization.
So you have every job filledthat there's an open seat for.
If you got a complete book of businessand you're at capacity, do you completely shut off business development and wait
until you lose that account, or areyou still softly tilling that ground so that if and when something does happen
(22:17):
and you increase capacity, whether it'sbecause we brought in somebody new or
we lost a client, we've got a pipelineof stuff that we're dealing with.
We don't approach it the same wayon the talent acquisition side.
We wait until either we win abig account, now our people are overworked or we lose an account.
(22:38):
And since we've lost that account,now we're stressing because it made up 22% of our overall revenue.
Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?
Yep.
We lose a top player.
Same type mindset happens if you'realways approaching it, like you're talking about from a BD perspective.
From the standpoint of this issomething we're always doing and we're
putting our best foot forward whenwe do it every time, it's amazing.
(23:00):
I think what would happen if thatjust little switch flipped in the mindset of most leaders of firms today,
and that's where thephilosophy is so important.
So we describe that.
The word we use is progressive.
Progressive firms, they're always gonnahire and add capacity because they know that if they have another a player, it
(23:22):
just gives them the freedom to bringin a couple of extra clients that next $250,000 of revenue, they know if it
makes sense for them to be upgradingcurrent talent that they have progressive.
Yep.
So we noticed that progressive firms wereopen-minded to hiring people remotely.
(23:43):
Which was a game changer in thefirst couple of years during
and post covid firms that saidgeography no longer matters.
We want the best talentirrespective of where they live.
Mm-hmm.
And we have more businesscoming in that we know what to do with capacity is the issue.
Okay.
If you're only gonna look at whoexists within five miles of your office, you're gonna be disappointed.
(24:05):
It's gonna stunt your growth.
When you say geography nolonger matters, then it's okay.
How many people do youneed and how quickly?
Yeah, it absolutely is a game changer.
I have a client here in the Dallas areathat he retired recently, but started
a firm 47 years ago, was one of the topfive local firms here in the marketplace.
His mindset.
(24:26):
Anytime I would call him with a candidate,regardless of whether or not they had an opening, Jim's mindset was, it's amazing
how when I hire a players, even when I'mnot looking, work just always shows up.
It always does.
I think you've probably lived thatand I've lived that as well from a recruiting perspective, because
there's arguments that could bemade, you know, at what point do you add somebody else to your team?
(24:47):
Well, my mindset has always been ifthere's an A player out there, I'm
gonna bring that person in because it'samazing how the work always shows up.
Whenever we bring that person in the door.
So I think you're right, thatprogressive mindset tends to set firms
apart when it comes to the talentacquisition, when it comes to retention.
There are firms that just lookfor more creative ways to do those things and do them well.
(25:10):
And you mentioned a minute ago,you know, just the simple act of.
Knowing who it is that you're talkingto and having studied that person's resume and looked through that resume.
I mentioned my daughters a minute ago,and when my daughters were starting to get into the professional world and
start the interviews and I would preparethem for interviews, I would always tell 'em, look, if anybody ever asks you.
Right out of the door when you sit down.
(25:32):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
That is code for either one.
I hate interviewing.
I don't like doing it.
So why don't you startthis process for me?
Yeah.
Or the second thing they're probablysaying is, Hey, I haven't taken a chance to read your resume here, so if you
could fill in two minutes of space bytelling me about yourself, I'll glance through your resume for the first time.
(25:55):
Yeah.
I think it's still that way inthe world that we live in today in our space in the county.
There's something lazyabout that statement.
You know, you get one chance.
Now, in the old days, in the olddays to me or pre Covid, you might
have been going up against one otherfirm and that firm was a mile away.
Now you're going up potentiallyagainst unlimited firms.
(26:18):
And you know, as an example, if you're inDallas, you're not just going up against
firms in Dallas, which philosophicallymay be exactly the same as you.
Well now you're going up against firmsin California and New York and Atlanta and Chicago that philosophically are
very different in terms of the waysthey treat people so lazy sticks out.
(26:41):
And with that one opportunityto make a first impression, it's
unlikely the candidate's gonnawant that second interview you.
Thanks for joining us for part one ofJohn Randolph's conversation with Allan Fisher of Premier Financial Search.
Part two will air mark.
March 19th.
Be sure to subscribe to hear thisand all the rest of our episodes
(27:03):
and learn more about the showat CPALifePodcast.com dot com.
We'll see you next time on CPA Life!
ProfessionalProductions.net.
Thanks for tuning in to CPA life wherewe taught culture and growth with folks that are going against the grain in
an industry that has been stuck witha, we've always done it that way.
Mindset.
For far too long, join hostJohn Randolph and learn how a sustainable, family-friendly career
in public accounting doesn't haveto be the exception to the rule.
(00:24):
Welcome to CPA Life.
Hey everybody.
We are back with another episode ofthe CPA Life Podcast, the podcast that shines a bright light on the
public accounting space and some ofthe leaders and insiders that are
aggressively working to create a morepeople-centric, modern minded culture.
(00:45):
Versus the century old.
We've always done it likethat culture that's permeated the industry for a long time.
And today we are continuing a seriesthat we started a couple of weeks ago where we're spending time speaking
with other recruiters and talentacquisition professionals who haven't.
Intimate knowledge of the industrybecause this is the industry segment
(01:05):
that they have built a businessaround supporting for multiple years.
And we are joined today by Allan Fisher,who's the president and founder of Premier Financial Search, which is an
executive recruiting and staffing firmthat for the last 23 years, has focused
on building partnerships and providingsolutions to CPA firms across the country.
Allan, welcome to the show.
(01:26):
Thanks for having me.
We're gonna be digging into a lot ofdifferent topics that we've kind of
emailed back and forth about, and I can'twait to hear your take on some things.
Something tells me that we're probablygonna share some similar mindset and thought process as we go through that.
But one of the things that we typicallylike to do before we really dig into a lot of the topics that we're gonna
talk about is give folks a little bitof the flavor of your background and
(01:50):
how you arrived at the point of yourcareer where you are today, because.
If you are like most folks,recruiting in the talent space was
not something that you probablyset out to do 20 plus years ago.
Correct?
Absolutely.
Fell into it like most of us.
Yep.
So tell me kind of where yourcareer started and how you took a left turn and went down this path.
(02:11):
I was an accountant in a house for apublicly held company that had no revenue.
So this was during the.com boom.
And you could see the writing on the wallin the accounting department that without earnings, without revenues, my job as
well as the jobs of a lot of other people,were gonna disappear at some point soon.
So I, I was referred to arecruiter who could helped me find my next accounting job.
(02:37):
And my background, mydegree is in marketing.
So they said, you know, with your degreein marketing and you're a couple of years in accounting, you'd be a great recruiter.
And I had no idea what it was.
I just knew that it wasn't accounting.
Um, and I was at a point in mylife where if I fell completely
flat, it would've been okay becausethe year before, I think I made.
(02:59):
38,000. So they were offeringme a draw of 2,500 a month.
And so knowing that I couldalmost replicate my salary plus opportunity for commission I was in.
And of course I had no ideawhat the profession was.
And within my first six weeks,the four people in the office,
(03:21):
which was another executiverecruiter, an outside salesperson.
Branch manager and a staffingperson all quit or were fired.
And I was there alone,but not gonna give up.
I had made a decision that I wasn'tgonna go back to accounting and sort of
a blessing in disguise that everybodyleft because it was sink or swim.
(03:42):
Mm-hmm.
And I decided I was gonna swim.
It, it's amazing how those trying momentsreally kind of are, are defining for us.
You know, people always laugh whenI tell 'em I, my first job outta college, I have a degree in journalism.
Kinda like you kind of fell intothis, but my first full year as a writer, I made $14,000.
So when I moved into recruiting,I thought there's no way I'm gonna make less than that.
(04:05):
I know I'm gonna make more than that, butI didn't know until mid part of the first day it was a hundred percent commission.
I just assumed they're notpaying me less than 14,000.
And when I found out it wasstraight commission, you know, I
sat down with my boss and said,Hey, I, I will be back tomorrow.
I gotta go figure out whatI'm gonna do in the interim.
(04:26):
And it's amazing how when you, you know,the old adage, the story of burning your boats, it's amazing when that happens.
You know, in your case, peoplequitting it's sink or swim.
Yep.
There's not a whole lot of options.
So talk to me about kind of that firstyear and how you were able to figure
things out in an environment where youwere pretty much the last man standing.
(04:46):
I was really fortunate that we had, soI worked for a national staffing firm.
And we had five offices in my region,which is Southern California, and my area manager at the time said,
if you promise not to quit, I'llcome to your office a day a week.
You come to my office a day aweek, and then by phone we'll assign a couple of other mentors.
(05:09):
And so she did exactly what she said.
She came to the office, shespent time, she mentored me.
She could see that Iwas a willing student.
Had two other mentors and it was the same.
It was, look, as long as you askgood questions, as long as you don't
give up, as long as you're willingto take the advice that we give.
(05:31):
You can push back if you think that whatwe're saying is completely unrealistic.
But these were seasoned veterans.
They all had 20 years of experienceand for me, I was in awe.
I was 26 at the time.
They had unbelievableexperience and success.
I. And so when, I'm sure you canrelate, John, when I started, we had a phone and an industry guide.
(05:55):
We didn't even have a phone book.
It was just a big, thick yellowbook of companies in certain industries laid out by SIC code.
Yes.
And so I came in wherewe had a fax machine.
We weren't even on email yet.
And so the people that I started with,they were telling me stories about how they would send resumes in the mail.
(06:15):
They would put a resume in the mailand then they would call three days later to say, Hey, did you get it?
And we were thinking of how advancedwe were because we had a fax machine
and you know, we, we'd get a, a receiptsaying that the fax went through.
I was fortunate.
So we started, it wasaccounting and finance.
And I was too early on to evenknow that there was a difference between accounting and finance.
(06:39):
But I was in a building where it wasalmost all CPA firms and we had three
mid-size CPA firms in the buildingand I was the first one in the office.
I was the last one to leave.
And during tax season, just realizedI'm seeing these same people here at six 30 in the morning and at eight
o'clock at night that, you know,there, there must be something to that.
(07:02):
There was somebody who Imet in the parking garage.
It was just one of those conversationswhere, you know, I see you here and you're working 14 hours a day every day.
What is it that you do?
And she said, I'm a tax senior and Iwork at the firm in the third floor.
She said, what do you do?
I'm a recruiter and a couple of days laterwe're in the elevator together and she hands me her resume and says, call me.
(07:28):
She had three years of experienceand she worked at what was considered a top 50 firm in Los Angeles, and
she said, all I care about is Iwanna work at a firm that's bigger.
And so I took out the LABusiness Journal Book of Lists.
She worked for the number,call it 47 firm in la.
I just called firms one through46, which of course included, it was back then it was the Big Six.
(07:52):
Yeah.
I'm still waiting on a return phone callfrom the managing partner of Deloitte.
But as I made my way down that list, Iwas getting calls back, so I was leaving a lot of voicemails, and by the time I
was done, I had six firms that said, I'dlike to know more about your candidate.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, six out of 46 wasa pretty amazing ratio.
(08:15):
What I recognized was partners,partners will respond.
The partners, at least in LA, are verymuch what you see is what you get.
My voicemail is pretty much to the point.
I'm representing a candidate withthree years working at a top 50
firm, looking for a larger firm, andthey're in touch with the market.
So what I said resonated with them.
(08:37):
The candidate went on all sixinterviews, ended up with three offers, and had a 25% salary increase.
Wow.
And so not only was I hooked onrecruiting, but I think I realized there's something about partners that their
style just works really well with mine,which is what you see is what you get.
(08:58):
Yeah.
And as long as you're honest aboutwhat you've got, they'll respond.
Yep.
And that was the beginning.
So you know, that happened maybe sixmonths into my recruiting career.
I was in a deficit up to that point'cause withdraw versus commission uhhuh and very soon I was back in the black.
And you know, from that point onnine months in, never looked back.
(09:21):
And I knew it was at the ninemonth mark where I knew I will be a recruiter for the rest of my career.
I.
It is amazing when you, when you havesome success in this business, anytime I interview people, inevitably the
question comes up sometimes of, Hey,what are the highs and what are the lows?
And I'll always tellpeople, here's the highs.
You're gonna walk out of this officesometimes, and you're gonna say, I can't believe I get paid to do this.
(09:47):
And then there's gonna be daysthat are the lows that you're gonna
walk out and you're gonna say, theydon't pay me enough to do this.
Yeah.
And, and both of those thingscoexist on a daily basis.
Yes, they do.
They, they absolutely do.
I, uh, as a long-term person in thisbusiness, and I was sitting at the table one night talking to my daughters.
(10:07):
They're older now, but they were littleand they were old enough to start to understand what dad did for a living.
And one of my girls asked me, dad,what do you love about your job?
And I said.
Absolutely love dealing with people.
Absolutely love the fact thatyou can take somebody and put them in a better position.
That gives them more opportunity tocreate for their family a better life.
(10:27):
You also can impact an organizationthat's got a hole that needs filling,
and this person could answer problemsthat could take 'em to the next level.
Absolutely love the fact that weget to deal with people and do that.
My other daughter said, dad,what do you hate about your job?
And I said, we have to deal with people.
That's, there's a double-edged swordto this that I think anybody that deals with the public sector, even our clients,
(10:50):
CPAs, there's probably a little bit oftruth in that in their life as well.
Wouldn't you agree?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's the best of all things, andit's the worst of all things.
But you nailed it, that there's something.
Amazingly gratifying about making a goodplacement because you know that you're improving somebody's life, usually in, in
(11:10):
more than one aspect, whether it's shortercommute, more money, greater partner track opportunity, different leadership.
Maybe it's a niche that theywant to get involved in.
And at the same time,potentially you found the next star, the next partner mm-hmm.
For the firm that you're working with.
Yep.
Years before I went into recruiting,I worked at a car audio store.
(11:33):
So we sold car stereos and while the buyermay get a lot of love and satisfaction out of his new six disc changer in his car.
That stereo gets nothing out ofthe relationship with the consumer.
So absolutely.
Now we're able to really changethe lives of people on both sides.
You're absolutely right.
(11:53):
The ability to impact multiple peoplein the midst of working together and building those relationships.
So there's a lot of things that we'vemessaged back and forth that I want to dig into and kind of get your take
on in the industry because there's,there's been a lot of movement.
Over the last six years, five years,six years, and definitely in the last two to three within the space.
(12:14):
Private equity coming in a more modernminded mindset that I think has to be
in place today if you want to attractthe talent that's out there today.
But one of the questions I wanted toask you is when you look at what's going on the desk of not only you, but.
The 10 people on your team, whatare some things that you're seeing that your clients are doing from
(12:39):
well to exceptionally well thatare somewhat setting them apart in the acquisition and retention game?
Because right now it'sreally a two-sided coin.
You know, for years, I think thatleadership and public accounting just
accepted the fact that, hey, we'regonna have 18, 20, 25, 30% turnover.
The problem with that today is there'snot as many people flowing in the front
(13:00):
door as they're going out the backdoor, if that's still what's going on.
So it's a necessity for firms ofwork on both sides of that equation and do 'em both exceptionally well.
What are some things that you areseeing that your clients are doing or
that you're advising your clients todo to begin to set them up to succeed?
Bringing people in and holdingonto what's there as well as the new people coming in the door.
(13:21):
Yeah, that's, I love that question.
We'll start with retention.
You're right about the 18 to 20% turnoverthat has been, it's been accepted.
Yeah.
And we could argue whyhas it just been accepted?
But that's been the status quo.
That changed 2021, definitely 2022.
Mm-hmm.
Where I think firms still acceptedthat was gonna be the case.
(13:45):
And of course we had what the world iscalling the Great Resignation, which probably peaked late 21, early 22.
Then what happened in 2022 is firmssaid it, it's becoming way too expensive for us to allow this to continue.
And during the early days of Covid,a lot of firms found themselves
(14:05):
in a position of becoming veryempathetic towards their employees.
Mm-hmm.
So it really pushed firms tobecome understanding about the
human condition first in termsof what's going on medically.
Are there people at ourfirm who've had covid?
What about their loved ones?
Really understanding whether it wasmask, mandates, vaccinations, but really trying to be beyond the right
(14:31):
side of any of those gray areas, butalso understanding there were certain
people that just couldn't come back tothe office because they were caring for.
Loved ones.
They had, their kids were doingschool via Zoom, and it was really
just trying to be the understandingsympathetic and empathetic employers.
Yep.
And that might have been the first timethat employees really got a glimpse into their, their firm's management philosophy.
(14:58):
Prior to that you didn't knowand you really didn't care.
But this was really the first point.
I would say it was a pointof inflection in the market.
Mm-hmm.
And most firms did a phenomenaljob when people would resign.
A lot of firms were caught offguard and they said, wait a minute,
we didn't understand some of thosethings that were on your mind.
(15:21):
Give us the opportunity to course correct.
Now, any recruiter prior to Covidcould give you a list of reasons, and I think if you were to search counter
offer and resignation on Google, youprobably get a trillion responses.
We're really good at havinga comeback for why you should never accept a counter offer.
(15:43):
Yep.
22 and 23, I would say our arguments weremoot because there were a lot of firms that that prior did not really have an
understanding of where the shortcomingswere, whether it was with salary.
I. Benefits and firms did a phenomenaljob of making things better.
Mm-hmm.
So in 21 and 22, that was thefirst time in my career I ever saw firms give market adjustments.
(16:10):
So that's totally separatefrom salary increases.
These were market adjustments.
This is a one time you are undermarket, we're gonna increase
you so that the playing fieldis more level at the same time.
Firms increased their benefitofferings to be more competitive.
They increased their 401k contributions.
(16:32):
Firms were 0%.
They went to two, they went to threefirms that were at three, one to
five better medical firms that neverhad maternity and paternity leave.
Were creating those plans and a listof other benefits to just make the firm a really desirable place to work.
(16:53):
At the same time we started to have alittle bit of fear about a recession.
And of course, inflation and costof living were raging outta control.
And so attrition probablyhit an all time low.
Mm-hmm.
So we went from the great resignation towhat people are calling the Great Stay and firms, you know, for the first time.
(17:16):
They felt we are doing all the thingsnecessary to become a, a destination of choice and people want to stay.
So I think if you were to lookacross the industry, let's forget
about the big four, where theyhave attrition for other reasons.
But if you were to look acrossthe industry attrition in 23 and 24 might have been about 5%.
(17:37):
So on the retention front,firms did a really good job.
Mm-hmm.
That's starting to change this here.
You can't have a situation whereattrition is three to 5% in a
profession where historicallythere is an upper out mentality.
Exactly.
So in serving a lot of my clients and mejust being able to do a virtual x-ray over most firms, we have under performers in
(18:05):
the market and the market I would describeas inefficient in an efficient market, we have a normal amount of attrition.
It creates a little bit of acarousel effect where people leave one firm to go to another.
Those seats are filled by people thatfind that firm to be a better option.
Mm-hmm.
But when everybody stays, put, firmsmaybe have the right number of people, but not necessarily the right people.
(18:31):
And what we're seeing now isa push to return to office.
I think firms are trying to figureout how to make sure they have the right people on the bus.
In some cases, they're gonnaallow people to opt out.
So attrition has been great.
I would actually argue attrition'sbeen a little too low on the talent acquisition side.
(18:53):
The biggest selling pointthat firms have is leadership.
I'd
agree.
Culture.
Yep.
Philosophy and HR and talent acquisitionusually does a good job of conveying that.
Nobody conveys it better than leadership.
The firms that still have their partners,even a managing partner involved in the interviews makes a huge difference.
(19:20):
Mm-hmm.
So it, it always puzzled me whena firm's going out to market
and there is an attractive pieceof business that they want.
They'll send their two most dynamicengaging rainmaking partners out to secure that new piece of business.
And when it comes time to bringsomebody in on the market, somebody
(19:41):
who could be a future partner, theysay, well, their time is too valuable.
We'll have people in HR or talentacquisition, maybe A COO get
involved, and I think they'releaving too much to chance.
I would say, let's makesure that we've got the best people available to interview.
And so, so many interviews have gonevirtual, which means the firm really
(20:05):
has an opportunity to showcase whoand what they want the way they want.
Mm-hmm.
Make sure that you've got, uh, arepresentative group on the interview.
I always want to see that there'sboth a male and the female.
Interviewing, um, particularly if you'reinterviewing a female candidate, have a diverse group of people, whether it's
(20:26):
inclusive, whether it's the age of thepeople, but it's also, it has to be people that understand the importance
of interviewing and understandingthe importance of securing talent.
They have to be cheerleaders, they haveto be people that, that can confidently
say why this is a firm of choice, becauseany candidate you're interviewing.
(20:48):
They've got options.
Absolutely.
You know, they, they could interview ata different firm every day for the rest of the year and not run out of options.
Mm-hmm.
So we've got a, in about an hour,we've gotta nail the interview in
that first example of Rainmakingpartners, they've got their pitch down.
Yep.
They know the things to say.
(21:09):
They've done theirresearch on the company.
They are the stars.
But when we approach interviews, wedon't, I. Do they understand the right questions that they should be asking?
Do they understand the right wayto, to make sure that the firm is put in the best possible light?
Are they taking time to lookat the resumes, to know who it is they're interacting with?
(21:31):
Do they look at the education?
Do they look at the other firms?
Do they look for commonalities?
The amount of effort that weput into getting new business.
Is 10 to one the effort that mostfirms put into attracting new talent.
You know, it's interesting you use thatanalogy, Allan, because that's one of the things that I constantly talk to
our clients about the importance ofbeing proactive in the hiring process,
(21:54):
regardless of what's going on insidethe four walls of your organization.
So you have every job filledthat there's an open seat for.
If you got a complete book of businessand you're at capacity, do you completely shut off business development and wait
until you lose that account, or areyou still softly tilling that ground so that if and when something does happen
(22:17):
and you increase capacity, whether it'sbecause we brought in somebody new or
we lost a client, we've got a pipelineof stuff that we're dealing with.
We don't approach it the same wayon the talent acquisition side.
We wait until either we win abig account, now our people are overworked or we lose an account.
(22:38):
And since we've lost that account,now we're stressing because it made up 22% of our overall revenue.
Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?
Yep.
We lose a top player.
Same type mindset happens if you'realways approaching it, like you're talking about from a BD perspective.
From the standpoint of this issomething we're always doing and we're
putting our best foot forward whenwe do it every time, it's amazing.
(23:00):
I think what would happen if thatjust little switch flipped in the mindset of most leaders of firms today,
and that's where thephilosophy is so important.
So we describe that.
The word we use is progressive.
Progressive firms, they're always gonnahire and add capacity because they know that if they have another a player, it
(23:22):
just gives them the freedom to bringin a couple of extra clients that next $250,000 of revenue, they know if it
makes sense for them to be upgradingcurrent talent that they have progressive.
Yep.
So we noticed that progressive firms wereopen-minded to hiring people remotely.
(23:43):
Which was a game changer in thefirst couple of years during
and post covid firms that saidgeography no longer matters.
We want the best talentirrespective of where they live.
Mm-hmm.
And we have more businesscoming in that we know what to do with capacity is the issue.
Okay.
If you're only gonna look at whoexists within five miles of your office, you're gonna be disappointed.
(24:05):
It's gonna stunt your growth.
When you say geography nolonger matters, then it's okay.
How many people do youneed and how quickly?
Yeah, it absolutely is a game changer.
I have a client here in the Dallas areathat he retired recently, but started
a firm 47 years ago, was one of the topfive local firms here in the marketplace.
His mindset.
(24:26):
Anytime I would call him with a candidate,regardless of whether or not they had an opening, Jim's mindset was, it's amazing
how when I hire a players, even when I'mnot looking, work just always shows up.
It always does.
I think you've probably lived thatand I've lived that as well from a recruiting perspective, because
there's arguments that could bemade, you know, at what point do you add somebody else to your team?
(24:47):
Well, my mindset has always been ifthere's an A player out there, I'm
gonna bring that person in because it'samazing how the work always shows up.
Whenever we bring that person in the door.
So I think you're right, thatprogressive mindset tends to set firms
apart when it comes to the talentacquisition, when it comes to retention.
There are firms that just lookfor more creative ways to do those things and do them well.
(25:10):
And you mentioned a minute ago,you know, just the simple act of.
Knowing who it is that you're talkingto and having studied that person's resume and looked through that resume.
I mentioned my daughters a minute ago,and when my daughters were starting to get into the professional world and
start the interviews and I would preparethem for interviews, I would always tell 'em, look, if anybody ever asks you.
Right out of the door when you sit down.
(25:32):
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
That is code for either one.
I hate interviewing.
I don't like doing it.
So why don't you startthis process for me?
Yeah.
Or the second thing they're probablysaying is, Hey, I haven't taken a chance to read your resume here, so if you
could fill in two minutes of space bytelling me about yourself, I'll glance through your resume for the first time.
(25:55):
Yeah.
I think it's still that way inthe world that we live in today in our space in the county.
There's something lazyabout that statement.
You know, you get one chance.
Now, in the old days, in the olddays to me or pre Covid, you might
have been going up against one otherfirm and that firm was a mile away.
Now you're going up potentiallyagainst unlimited firms.
(26:18):
And you know, as an example, if you're inDallas, you're not just going up against
firms in Dallas, which philosophicallymay be exactly the same as you.
Well now you're going up against firmsin California and New York and Atlanta and Chicago that philosophically are
very different in terms of the waysthey treat people so lazy sticks out.
(26:41):
And with that one opportunityto make a first impression, it's
unlikely the candidate's gonnawant that second interview you.
Thanks for joining us for part one ofJohn Randolph's conversation with Allan Fisher of Premier Financial Search.
Part two will air mark.
March 19th.
Be sure to subscribe to hear thisand all the rest of our episodes
(27:03):
and learn more about the showat CPALifePodcast.com dot com.
We'll see you next time on CPA Life!
ProfessionalProductions.net.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.