March 5, 2025 • 51 mins
This episode we're graced by Lauren Reilly (aka Glamour Possum) unpacking the creative whiplash she had to navigate when her pursuit of an acting career in NYC was thwarted by the covid pandemic, and explaining how she found her way as an accomplished author by re-exploring her creative roots at the prompting of her supportive family.
Lauren has two published titles and a third in the works as well as a thriving and entertaining social media presence.
Where to find Glamour Possum online.
https://www.glamourpossum.com/shop
https://www.patreon.com/c/glamourpossum7
https://www.instagram.com/glamourpossum/
https://www.youtube.com/@glamourpossum5292
Support Create - Art - Repeat
https://www.patreon.com/createartrepeat
Credits:
Music: Douglas Appleman - http://www.Douglas-Appleman.com/
Copyeditor/Proofreader: Reed Floarea - https://www.floareaindexing.com/
Co-Host: Archer Ezra Rosenbloom - https://www.instagram.com/cos_and.effect
Co-Host: Griffin Ess - https://www.shadedareas.com/
Original date of episode publication: March 5th, 2025
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It's always fun, like, having people use things that you created in new, exciting ways.
I was very endeared with you nerding out about,
the Golden Door being included on the map. I didn't even think that that was, like, a thing.
No, it's so cute.
Like, a choice I made affected the world, and now it's on the map. And,
(00:22):
like, you're gonna do other campaigns in this world...
Oh yeah.
...that I will have no part of, presumably at some point.
But that Door will still be there.
That door is gonna be in that wall.
Yep.
I would love for it to operate kind of under Orpheus rules. You know,
like how Orpheus opened the ground with... because his song was, like,
(00:44):
so beautiful, he made the stones cry. And that's how he got to the underworld.
I generally know how it works. I just haven't thought through it yet.
You generally know how it works?
I heard me say it as soon... Yeah, I got... (laughter)
Sorry.
(laughter) No, I walked into that one.
[music by Douglas Appleman]
(01:06):
So I think I got it all sord out. Can I walk
you through what I think is gonna happen with this chat?
Sure. Go for it.
Neat. I know Lauren from a wedding she officiated, and then we hit it off, and she ended up living
in Salem, even though the wedding was in, like, New Jersey. She was a big theater person, like,
(01:26):
doing the New York City. I'm going to make it if I have to die trying. Run right before COVID hit. So
everything kneecapped there and in the rebuilding process, they have self published two books now,
and, I think they are working on a third. So I'm hoping to get some sort of update on that,
but I kind of just want to unpack how she bounced off of that surprise of,
(01:50):
like, I did everything right and nothing was ready to work at all.
Yeah, I mean, I also am very interested in how they pulled that off.
(laugh)
Where would you target if you were talking to someone with that kind of whiplash?
Ooooo. I think I would ask where their drive started from. Like, what at the start of this
(02:13):
process made them want to move to New York and do the whole New York thing? And then how did they
keep using that same drive and energy once it was clear that the original goal had to change?
Because that's something I've never been very good at. Once I know that a goal is unattainable,
(02:34):
I struggle with changing it to make it attainable. And sometimes I end up just
scrapping the goal completely and switching to something else, which doesn't feel as productive.
...make a note on that, cause that's huge...
Awesome. I will make sure she unpacks it if she doesn't do it by herself.
Sounds good.
(02:55):
I will check in with you in like 40 minutes... somewhere around there.
I will retreat over to my corner and the menu with the holes cut out of it.
I... there's a non-zero chance you actually did that.
Okay, I'll sit behind her and just make you giggle the entire time.
That should be great. (giggles) Thanks.
Have fun.
(03:19):
[music by Douglas Appleman]Lauren. Hi. How are you doing?
Hi. I'm doing good.
Thank you for making the time for this.
So mostly I just want to sort of unpack how you got
from where you were to where you wanted to be to where you are.
Okay.
Yeah, we're keeping it tiny today. Small talk.
Okay.
Yeah, no, just, just three major life events. Well, I did a lot of visual art when I was
(03:43):
younger and then sort of progressed into performance because I had like a really,
really, really active imagination. And my parents thought that it would be good for me to channel
that. So I started doing theater. I think also it was good, as most anxious kids will tell you,
you sort of forget that when you're on stage. So I think it was a little therapeutic in a way. So
(04:06):
I focused on theater for most of my career. Sounds like, I mean, I was still in school,
but I did like every pre college program. I did every local audition, I did every school play.
I was in show choir. I did all of the stuff, you know, basically like training since I was really
young, had my blinkers on. I really thought that I would have a career in performance.
(04:33):
and then I went to college and that sort of all derailed. I had a very meticulous expectation of
what the industry was going to be. And I quickly learned that it was not like that at all. It's,
you know, you can have all the training in the world, you can be right for a part,
you can look a certain way and all of that, but really, it doesn't really matter if quite
(04:55):
literally one time I got told in an audition, oh, you did great. But, our producer's niece
is coming in after you. And I realized why they told me that because this, this woman who was
running the auditions really did not want me to get my hopes up, which is a kindness in a way.
Great thing is also, it's not like a job interview where they will maybe inform you if they didn't
(05:17):
get the job. sometimes you find out when you see somebody else, the episode airs or you see them
make the cast announcement and then you're like, oh, I just waited saying no to other projects when
I potentially could have been not wasting my time, started realizing that wasn't go gonna work for
me. But still I think got in that trap that a lot of actors get into, which is like, well, I'm too
(05:40):
deep in the cult to really switch gears. Because it is like a cult, you know, you leave it and
it is like a cult where people are like, no, why would you leave like, oh, well, you know, I guess
you just weren't dedicated to the craft enough. you know, the supreme leader of SAG. But whatever.
I will say I was just having a conversation with someone yesterday about this idea that they,
(06:04):
there's this sort of picture that everyone gets when going into any
of these creative fields of what the path to success is supposed to be. And the idea
that they're just copying someone else's blueprint doesn't work because the door
never seems to be open for more than a second after each success story. Unless
you're someone's niece or have that sort of, uh, financial connection or like...
(06:28):
I think also in the arts too, you, you have to learn to bob and weave more than you do with any
other career because you know, you do not have for the most part a stable job. And also your
training is going to be very different. Whereas like I think also culturally we are taught you,
you pick something at 18 that you want to do for the rest of your life, you go to school for it,
(06:51):
you get into debt for it, and then it's supposed to pay off and then if it kind of doesn't, it's
your fault, you know, you didn't work hard enough. Whereas, you know, I picked the most unreliable
art to get into, which is theater. Depending on the mood and mental state of your instructors are
going to get a very different level of training. You're not going to get the same kind of training
(07:13):
that you would through every program. It's not engineering or architecture or you know,
even english. Things that have a little bit more of a structure to them. Also, depending
on where you go, I personally chose a program that would allow me to audition outside of the
program where a lot of them won't do that. But I wanted to work, I wanted on the ground experience.
(07:35):
Wait, programs don't allow some people or some programs don't allow that?
So if you go to a four year conservatory program, like a Carnegie Mellon for those
four years, you're in the shit. so you, you agree you are not going to take any
jobs. You are not going to audition. You are strictly there for training.
Oh God
(07:55):
But like, you know, you're getting those four years of a high intensity program and
you're also getting the connections that you can get going to a Carnegie Mellon. I
went to U Arts which would allow you to audition and a lot of people were
in productions when they were still going to school and they were doing movies and things
like that. and I thought that that would be good for me because I didn't want to
have four years and then I couldn't talk to anybody and I didn't know how to audition and
(08:18):
I didn't know how to you know, function in a working theater or on a working film set.
No. Sounds like you took the smarter... what makes
sense to me as a smarter path. I don't know how that works though.
You think that but so while this was all happening, you know, you are told, hey, you're
going to miss major life events, you're going to be a terrible friend, you're going to be a really
(08:38):
unreliable partner. You're going to eat cigarettes and live in tragedy. You're never going to make
enough money. your student debts will be passed on to your next of kin, assuming that you have time
to breed. You know, you basically get told your life's go going to suck, but that's the work.
That is an amazing narrative to be shoved into your face at that age.
Especially at 20 to 21 years old, which let's face it, you're not at your most emotionally stable
(08:59):
time period in your life. And for me also I come from a background of people that are
like very high rollers, high intelligent, high intensity jobs. My dad started his own business,
my mom was in real estate. My grandfather was an economics professor, my uncle's a lawyer,
my other uncle's a surgeon. My aunt is in finance.
Man the covenant bandwidth in your bloodline.
(09:21):
Like but so they all have these like very, you know, straight and narrow, you know,
you go into this and you do the work and then know you retire at 70 and then maybe you die.
But maybe, maybe you die.
Maybe you die, maybe get a couple more years. But so I realized as I'm going through the
training for theater, like I have the capacity to do those jobs and I'm starting to think like maybe
(09:44):
I want... stability in the art doesn't exist but like maybe I want something that's a little bit
more reliable and maybe I'm not depressed all the time and maybe I get rewarded for my hard work
and maybe there's something else out there. But then I always felt bad about it, and I was like,
well, maybe I don't want to just act. Maybe I want to... Maybe I want to direct,
(10:07):
and maybe I want to write, and maybe I want to produce. I want to... Like,
I have all these ideas. And then I would sort of get this pat on the head being like,
that's great, honey, but that's not the work. And my senior year of college,
I took a class that everybody is required to take called business of theater. And it basically is
taught by a guy named Neil Hartley, who still has had the biggest impact on me,
(10:28):
like, career wise. And it's basically how to do your taxes. It's how you make money. It's how...
Ahh the practical stuff.
It's practical stuff that you would think you get four years of that.
Yeah.You get A semester. So our final project,
you had to build a business plan. And I built what became Glamour Possum.
(10:51):
Which I still, to this day, every time I see that name, it just.
People love it.
It's so good.
He took me aside and he was like, hey, you have some, like,
you have ideas that I think an actual production company would be interested
in doing. I was like, Ah HA HA HAaaa. I had. What was it? I had, like, one,
woman's show about all the first ladies. I had an Alistair Crowley rock opera. And...
(11:14):
that sounds amazing
Right! Well, you know, I was like, okay, if I pitched this in an elevator,
how would I do? And Neil took me set. He goes, we need to put those aside somewhere,
and you need to save them. I floundered for five years, and I finally got my life together enough
to move to New York. And I was like, okay, I am gonna devote myself to the work. I was gonna do
the Melanie Griffith working girl thing. I was gonna live on Staten island and commute every day,
(11:38):
and I was gonna have 10,000 jobs and then, you know, spend all my money taking classes
with people that couldn't book it on SNL. And then, something happened... It was called Covid.
Yeah.
So I, within the span of a week, lost... the company that I was going toa be working
for shutdown. I lost my apartment. And, I had not renewed my lease in Philadelphia,
(12:01):
so I literally was going to be homeless. And my mom,
thank God. So my parents were watching me... I mean, just tank. And they went,
why don't you move home for two weeks? Because it was two weeks. We'll, you know, flatten the curve.
Right, Right.
Put my Stuff in a pod. We'll put your stuff in Storage and you just something will pop
up. And my dad kept being like, "It's New York. It's always gonna be there!" So six
(12:24):
months later my mom sets me down and has a very come to Jesus moment where she's like,
"Okay, so New York's never gonna happen." Like not in the next couple of years.
Like.. yeah, it's a Weeble Wobble, but it's not getting back up that fast
That thing that you're been building your
life around since you were 13 is not going to happen. And it was like...
No pressure. No pressure.
No, no, there wasn't any pressure. But I basically come to think of it now as
(12:44):
like it was a career ending injury. You know how sports.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Well they or dancers even you have that moment where somebody has to sit you down and go,
guess what? You're never gonna play football again.
Yeah, that knee is not gonna be...
Your body will not allow it. And if you attempt to do this you will just make it so much worse
on yourself. So I was like there is nothing else. Like it really was... my mom... I got deprogrammed
(13:11):
basically. Like when you leave a cult they tell you like there is nothing else. There's nothing
else I can do. And I literally was weeping in our at our kitchen table to my mom being like,
I'm a dumbass. I can't do anything else. I have no life skills. I can't do anything else. The only
other thing for me to do is go back to school and potentially take out another student loan and...
(13:32):
Oh god.
... end up in debt. And I mean I'm spiraling at this point. And my mom sits me down,
she goes "Okay, that's not going to happen. We're not telling you you have
to do any of that. We're just saying you have the ability to start over."
Honestly, the correlation of trying to deprogram from a cult is amazing. My
friend Meg is an anthropologist who focuses on that kind of study as her own interest
(13:53):
and with my forensic psychology background, like we have had so many deep conversations
about deprogramming structures. and that does sound on brand for what you you just explained
Well, because you think about it, you know, I was not, I was not the golden child. I wasn't a
sports kid. I wasn't really that I was good at school, but not to the point where I was like
excelling. And here you have all these people telling you that they're giving you attention
and you're getting praise and you're. It's really cute when you're a kid and you do these monologues
(14:17):
Right. With sports and stuff there is that more,
like, tangible... other people understand the path where acting in theater and stuff.
And also you're being seen. And, like, my big thing was I wanted to be seen.
And also I had this concept that's really toxic for female actors, which is, well,
if you're doing theater, you have to be on stage and people want to look at you,
so you must be pretty. And that was like. That was. That was currency for me.
(14:40):
Yeah, that extra layer.
And then, you know, it is. You get the attention and love that maybe you didn't get anywhere else.
And that's what a cult thrives on. and my mom is basically, like, telling me. She's like, again,
just this big come to Jesus moment where she's like, "How much money have you dumped into this?
And how much of your life have you wasted waiting on auditions or callbacks? And how long can you
(15:04):
realistically keep doing this?" and also, she was like, "and aren't your ideas also important?"
I love that somebody pinpointed that for you before it got too...
But my dad, too. Both of my... I was stuck in the house with my parents, and, you know,
like, to some people, that's a fucking nightmare. But my parents... Luckily,
I was born to two people that like me, and I like them. But both of my parents were like,
(15:27):
we've watched you have these little bursts of creativity where you wrote poetry,
you would do plays, you would come up with characters. You know, I was really
into cosplay. I would build costumes and, like, these little bursts of things where, you know,
somebody would compliment me and I'd be like, oh, well, I really want to be an actress. No,
I'm gonna be an actress. And so while I'm home at Covid, my parents literally brought all this stuff
(15:49):
up from the basement. They were like, look, you wrote part of a book. You wrote poetry.
Ah, so this is the pivot.
Well, in there was. I wrote a full book sophomore year of high school.
Oh my god. No... that's amazing.
Yeah, but so in that big pile of stuff was this whole ass book that I wrote,
and it was about a banshee living in Whitechapel, England,
(16:11):
during the Victorian era. And all of these. It's a little bit like, have you ever seen...
I'm seeing the connective tissue.
There's a series called Carnival Row that I would compare it to more,
Yes!
Where you have all these mythical creatures from different areas that would have immigrated,
living in the areas of people that, you know, were not.... They couldn't live anywhere else.
You know, Whitechapel was where A lot of immigrants lived. A lot of people who were
(16:33):
poor lived. A lot of sex workers lived. And I had that in my hand. I went through. And I was like,
oh, wait, this is like. You know, you read anything from when you're
a teenager and you're like, this sucks, but there's potential here.
No, I definitely remember finding stuff from when I was younger...
Everyone has that stuff that you pull out when you're an adult and you look at it and you go,
this is terrible, but I can work with this.
(16:55):
Yeah, there's that m millisecond of genius you can see in there.
But the techniques are still underdeveloped.
The seed has been planted, but maybe you need to repot it.
Yeah, that's a great metaphor. I love that.
So I moved to Salem. I have no friends, no job, no sofa. I have like... Well, because I move,
I... This is... again, I guess I was just sitting there being like, well, I'm gonna live here until
(17:17):
my lease runs out and then I'm gonna go back to New York. I'm just doing this to make...
Right...my parents happy because I'm still trying to
get to where I think I need to be. And I was also becoming very aware of, again,
great thing to be a female actor with... I was becoming really aware of my age.
The pressure on the ticking clock on that is... strange
Yeah. I was 26... and who's gonna want me when I'm 27? And, you know, I basically was like, well,
(17:43):
I guess I'm going to have to start writing because I'm getting old and ugly and fat.
Oh, God.
Which was. I mean, none of them are true, but that's how I felt. And again,
we were all. Everybody stuck in the house...
Do you have the actual, like, intrusive thought
thing where that interrupts other things... like, out of nowhere?
Oh god yeah. My intrusive... I mean, I described them as paralyzing. And I
(18:05):
think that the other thing was we were all so tuned into what everyone else was doing.
Oh, god. Yeah.
And as artists, too, we are always tuned into what everyone else is doing because you have friends
that are in the same industry as you. And, like, you get excited when you see them doing stuff
because you're like, oh, my God, I'm really glad that they started doing that. You know,
(18:25):
D&D campaign, or, I'm really excited that that person started painting again, or,
oh they're writing a song, or, oh they did a whole album. And, like, I feel like a lot of
people just started doing stuff during the pandemic, but a lot of other people we were
all paralyzed because you didn't know if somebody that you loved was going to get sick. You didn't
know if you were going toa get sick. And a lot of people did get sick. And then it was like,
(18:48):
how much time do I have left? Like, am I going to be able to live through this? Like,
it was just. You couldn't... you didn't feel like you could start anything. Because how do
you start something when you don't know what the next 24 hours are going to look like?
Oh, God. We had very different mental experiences through this. But I see what you're saying.
But while this is all hap-... I mean, this is just internally, externally, I was like, I have to do
(19:13):
something. and so I got a job in Salem and then I got another job working remote. And I was like,
okay, the creative, the backup is happening. Like, I haven't done anything creative because...
The creative backup I understand entirely. It's like that clog that
you feel of the pressure of all the ideas kind of not getting released.
(19:33):
Because the other thing that I want to talk... Like, being an artist,
you feel like you have to be working all the time on something very meaningful. And like,
when in reality a lot of us have other jobs. So some days are just work, laundry, more work,
pay a bill, go get your car fixed, go take your dog to the vet, go see friends. Like, it's not
always like sitting at a big desk with a quill in hand being like, what are my musings for today?
(19:58):
Are you making fun of my quill?
I have a quill! I also have a quill! But I think that to people that are not in the arts,
that is the aesthetic of being an artist. Like..
Yeah... a little flighty...
...we sit around in little sweaters with like, with our little coffee cups being like,
m, I'm gonna write poetry about asparagus. Like, and that was very much the,
(20:21):
the aesthetic of being an artist became really popular, I feel like,
on TikTok, because we all wanted to look like we were deep in the shit.
God, the projection that modern Internet has also created where it kind of reinforces this
weird ethereal image that is almost impossible to actually survive in.
And then you feel guilty when you look around and you've got like 10,000 pieces of paper and
like a half eaten sandwich and you're like, why the fuck can't I be this organized? Oh,
(20:44):
writers are supposed to be like, they're supposed to have like,
you know, cute little typewriters in their house and wear sweaters
and be impossibly thin, like naturally, when all they do is sit most the day.
One of my illustrator friends has a great curated image of herself on social media with, like,
these great little videos of her working. But then, like, she'll post the thing of,
(21:05):
like, I found this sketch. I have no idea when I did it... but I never finished it.
You know what the other thing is. Like, I feel like being an artist in the modern century,
you do kind of have to build a persona. And I say that because I do it too. If you go
through, like, my TikTok feed, my YouTube, my Instagram, like, I have a very crafted image.
You do. And you've done great at it.
Yeah. But then sometimes I'll post a picture where, like, I have no chin and I've been in
(21:28):
the same bathrobe for 10 hours. And, you know, I've been... 'cause I have to get something done.
And all this started forming during COVID for me. Cause I did get on TikTok and I was like,
I'm never gonna be... I'm an artist, a real artist. I don't have to do this.
Then because I was like, when was the last time I talked to somebody in person? Five
days ago. I need to do something with this 'cause, otherwise I'm gonna go insane. Well,
(21:53):
so that was when I saw people doing, like, little vignettes of characters and like...
Ahhh.
...you know, people, because everybody was dressing up.
You can always play make-believe when the real world is going to hell.
And I had always loved fashion,
and that was something that I feel like had been taken away from me being an actor...
Awww... because... well you have to be a canvas
(22:14):
yeeeaaahhh
It's literally about the...
I'm glad you pivoted away from that because your fashion sense is fucking astounding.
Well, because it was always something I liked and... but you know... My third book that I'm
writing is literally about how public versus private personas of actors are. Because you
have to be a canvas in one sense, but then you also have to be, you know,
you have to be likable and intelligent and open and earnest and fuckable,
(22:37):
but not too fuckable. And as a woman, you have to be young but not naive. And
you have to be mature, but you can't look old. I mean, it's The Substance.
I, can't wait to see the third book if that's where you got the angle.
Well, it's also a romantic comedy, but, like,
Of course.It's a lot of the main character kind
of untangling a lot of stuff that I had to untangle from.
I love that.That back to TikTok.
Yes.
You know people were dressing up as these characters and they were showing
(22:59):
everybody their cosplays and doing these little vignettes of characters. And I was like, ooh,
I like that. But the actor part of me was like, oh, I wanna like... I wanna dive into the... Who
is that person? In a ten second clip. Like, what is their life like? How did they get here? What
do they do? Who are they? And that was when, really, The Wonderful Lady B series was born.
(23:22):
Because I took my tripod out one day because Halloween got canceled in 2020, even though
more people came to Salem than we're supposed to. When the literal governor is begging you not to
come to a place that maybe you shouldn't go, but the streets were a little bit more empty, so you
could walk around. And it was fall and it was like that time where the air changes and really like...
Ahhh Salem being in autumnal...
Especially in New England, you know, you get that energy,
(23:45):
the perfect Over the Garden Wall energy. Yeah.
Oh, my God. But it... and it was. And I walked around with my tripod and I
shot myself walking. And then I had always been really good at, dialects.
Yeah.
And so I was like, I'll do, like, a fun voiceover dialect.
God. The first conversation we had in person after the wedding, like, when we hung out in Salem,
(24:05):
the number of voices you went through just sort of like walking me through your life was amazing.
Well that's just how... That's how my head is. Like, in my head... I've always watched
how people, like, act and they move and they speak and everybody has little, you know...
You're a shapeshifter at that level. Like, you're a changling.
That's what my mom says. She's like, you're like a chameleon. Or. She also
says I'm like a parrot because I can mimic what I hear really,
(24:29):
really well. So I did the high British RP and I showed it to people, and they were like, "More!"
Yeah!
And I'm like... okay. And I started thinking like, okay,
this is my first... like, writing credit. Like, this is something that I've always wanted to do,
but what can I write about continuously? And I never get bored of. And I love.
(24:50):
Like, that's the other thing I would....
That is the other thing.
If we're giving advice, you have to find the thing that you can
talk about somebody for hours and you don't get bored of talking about it.
Yeah. If you're trying to do the work for the sake of it being THE good idea that
someone else told you was the good idea, but you're not into it, it doesn't work same way.
Well, you sometimes you know,
you will have those. You get positive feedback, and you want to keep going,
(25:13):
Of course.But you do have to have internal passion for it.
Yeah.
And that was very much what happened. And I was like, what are things that I... What does Lauren
like? What. Not what Lauren wants to project as a performer, but what do I like as a person?
And I was like, well, like, I like history, I like gothic horror, I like mythology,
(25:34):
and I like historical fashion. So from those four things, I was like, okay,
so I can keep doing this. And I went back a little bit to the book that I had written. Cause I had a
template a little bit... I changed a lot. But I was like, love. I love Irish mythology. I've
always loved Irish mythology. There's. I mean, obviously being Irish American,
(25:56):
there's a connection there. But I've always loved the concept, too, that every culture,
no matter where you go, has the concept of a beautiful woman that's also a monster.
Yeeaaah.
In every culture, there's always, you know, she's either like a snake,
but she's got the face of a beautiful woman, or.
Or a seal secretly.
Or a banshee or she's a deer. There's always some connection to nature,
(26:17):
but there's always that, oh, she... she's gonna get you.
(laughter)
And, you know, I just. I was always really called to that. And I was like, well,
what if the myth of the beautiful woman who's a monster, what if she didn't start out that way?
Like, what. She just wasn't this ephemeral thing that was born and was evil. Well she's a victim...
This isn't where... this wasn't plan A. A number of things went wrong that got me here.
No. and also, like, I think also culturally,
(26:38):
we demonize women a lot without really looking, like, okay, how did we get here?
It's still sort of the fucking default.
Like, what happened to her? Why are you like this? You know? And
I really dove into that. And then I did a couple of episodes where I
started getting messages from people on TikTok and, like, comments are public...
Right.So these people are telling me publicly, like,
I... I'm an SA survivor, and I'm a survivor of child abuse...and I identify with this. And,
(27:05):
like, sometimes I would have to go for a walk... because...
Right. That's a lot of emotional...
You'll get people who are so like... when they connect when they connect with something and it
hits in a certain place, they want to get it out, and they want to talk to you about it.
Right. Because now you're the conduit that they're feeling it again through.
Because something has activated in them, where they're like,
Yeah.
Oh my god this makes sense to me, and I see, like... And I would have to, like,
just go for a very Long walk after reading some of that because you... ... I feel for these people.
(27:30):
Do you know the concept of a sin eater from, Catholic Mythos? It's this idea of
like excommunicated members of the church, people who could not get absolution upon
death. They would hire an excommunicated priest to perform a ritual where they.
No! Oh! I do! I know what you're talking about. Its like what the word was.
it feels like you kind of picked up your own version of that in this process.
(27:50):
I did! And there were a lot of people with religious trauma and there were
a lot of people that just. That we were all like, coping through the worst thing.
Yeah.
And I was like, I have to keep doing this. And then BookTok became a big thing.
BookTok really picked up, yeah.Because everyone was reading. Because there was
nothing else to do. Barnes & Noble literally came back from the dead.
And TV shows weren't recording and movies had gone.
(28:10):
Nobody was doing anything. The only thing we had was books. And so then I kept seeing in the
comments, "If this was a book, I would buy it." - "If this was a book, I would buy it." And I...
Right
Okay, well I'll make a book, but I won't sell it. I'll just give it to people that
I know. And then, you know, I told my parents I was writing a book and my dad
goes... well, you know, he had a friend who was a printer, who,
(28:33):
well, my dad, for his business, had to have a guy print things for him...
Of course.
...like pamphlet and when he would go to conventions and things, and he was like,
well, you know, could. We could print a couple copies and I could fiddle around
with... maybe you get a. I'll connect you with the person that helps me sell stuff
through my website and you two talk. And I was like, okay, sure, yeah, whatever, dad.
(laughter)
I'm very lucky in the sense that I had people tell me what I needed to do because my dad
(28:58):
started his own business and he was watching me sort of formulate the idea of this being
a business and was right there and was supportive and was like, listen, I don't know anything about
fiction writing or publishing or any of that, but what I do know is that you have something
that people want to buy and you have to make it accessible to them because...
(29:19):
Yeah, the concepts of supply and demand and the ability to
make it tangible for an audience is a different
Concepts of supply and demand and like the ability to make it tangible for an
audience that is a different grounded thing that can replicate very easily.
Right and I also think he watching me still hang on to the acting thing. When he was like,
but you're so good at this other thing. Like, why don't you try to make this a
job and you can make money off of this and you can build a, build a career that,
you know, you didn't.... And I, I just kept telling him like, dad, I'm 27. It's too late.
(29:43):
Oh God.
And I'm like, I can't do anything else. And he's like, "but you're doing it right now".
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm, I'm so glad that somebody not identified that for you.
But It's the imposter syndrome too... of like, well, I'm doing this, but it's not real.
Yeah.
You self-published your first book and your website crashed
What's real anymore? Like, you know, people self publish all the time. I
published the first book and my website crashed. I made $3,000 in the first day.
(30:08):
That's amazing.
And I was, I had never, never made that much money from any acting job ever.
And this was the first book of The Wonderful Lady B?
This was the first one, The Wonderful Lady B: Volume 1.
And this is one that you came out with an audio version of recently.
Yes. So we did the audio version for that. My friend Val, worked... They worked as a sound
(30:29):
technician for a theater and they had all of this stuff. And so, you know, this was, I mean, three
years after I had the first book come out. But the first book came out and I was like, oh, this is,
this is what I do now. I think I'm an author. and then it started to turn into, well, what else can
I do? I had the book come out and then I had my friend Nathan who wrote um... it's a sex-positive,
(30:56):
vintage-style publication called Sought and he was like, hey, now that you're published...
Oh, yes!
... do you want to write something for me? And I was like, I don't know about that. I told him
no a couple of times before. But... I was like, well, I have a platform now. Why don't I try to
sell a couple copies of the magazine? Because the more copies sell, Nathan gets more money,
the actual models will probably get more money and then I'll get more money. And
(31:18):
I told... I tell my parents everything because I never want anything I do to be a surprise. I
also don't think anything I do is that bad. So I wrote my first submission to Sought,
which has now inspired the third book that I'm writing, which is not the one...
I love that there's a third one.
It's the romantic comedy. It's going to be called:
In This Fair Chase, and it's about a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream.
(31:40):
Oh, that's go going toa be Amazing.
But it was inspired by something I wrote for Sought and I told my parents,
and my mom was like, well, we can't stop you from doing anything. You're an adult. And also,
you don't listen to us anyway. But she was like, are you naked in the magazine? I go,
no. And then my dad kind of. I told my dad what it was, and I showed him an example,
and my dad goes, well, you know, Lauren, a lot of. A lot of really important people
wrote for Playboy. You know, Margaret Atwood, Truman Capote, Shel Silverstein. And I'm like,
(32:04):
my dad has never read Margaret Atwood a day in his life. God bless him.
(laughter)
Not his vibe. So I'm like, did he just Google people that wrote for
Playboy so he could, like, feel better about this?
That's a likely outcome.
I'm Sought's... I'm the contributing fiction writer for SoughT and doing
that. And then people were buying the book, and then I did. I started getting,
like, feedback from people, too, that I don't think... also... as an artist,
(32:25):
you realize sometimes impact your art has on people that you weren't expecting.
Right.
You write the book. You... you write it the way that you want it to be,
and you make it the way that you want it to be. And then when you publish it,
it's like your kid goes to college and they become their own person and they develop their own lore.
Yeah.
And people will meet them, and that will change how they're viewed. And one of the things
(32:46):
that I wasn't expecting with the first book, specifically, I had a lot of people who were,
fans of one of the characters who were people living with disabilities.
Oh?
Didn't intend it. Because...
Yeah
In the first book, one of the love interests, Felix,
he becomes, through illness, he has to use a wheelchair.
(33:08):
Yeah.
And the way that I wrote it, I had this one woman who was so, so sweet come to my... come to one of
my author events, and she walked with a cane, and she came up and she was like, thank you so
much for writing him like a person. But my first response was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You
don't understand. See, I'm terrible, and I don't know what I'm doing. There's got to be way better
stuff out there for you with. With disability representation. And. And I sat there, and then
(33:32):
I was like, but maybe there isn't? And, like, maybe it is out there, but she hasn't found it
yet. And maybe this was the first thing that she read where she was like: "This is what I want."
No, this is One of those things of, like, the number of people I know
who intentionally try to make those moments where they end up tokenizing
someone without meaning to. Where you were just treating it like a character. So...
But again, don't. I didn't intend for that. But I was also just like, okay, well, here he is. Like,
(33:57):
hope you don't mind. Nobody, did. And a lot of people have been very wonderful
about that. And then I also, I did an event called Oberon's Coffee Society. And I had...
That's a great name.
... a girl come to me who was... She'd been reading my stuff for a while,
and she'd been a fan of my stuff for a while, and we finally met in person and she was like,
I want to write my own stuff because of you. And I've gotten that too, a bunch of times.
(34:20):
That's amazing.
Well, her story sticks out to me because the second book hadn't come out yet. And
the second book, there's a character who, is from ancient Joseon, which is, what North and
South Korea were before they were North and South Korea. They were the kingdom of Joseon. And she
comes up to me and she's like, I've never... I've never found something with a love interest from
(34:41):
there that treats again, like a person. And he's not really fetishized, and he's got his
own [ ] going on and he has his struggles. And, you know, some of them are cultural,
but a lot of them are personal. And she's like, you know, I'm not really connected with my culture
because my parents are immigrants and they don't like to talk about it for, very good reason.
I mean... yeah.
I mean... immigrant trauma is a real thing, and...
(35:01):
It really is.
She said, but I want to, like, I want to write more about stuff that comes from my culture,
and I have a really hard time connecting to it. And it was just. It was nice to read
that. And the other part of me, again, I want to be like, no, no, no, no, no.
Yeah!There's way better shit out there. Like,
please go find it. And then I was like, maybe she hasn't found it yet.
How weird is that... as like a white person?
(35:23):
It was inse... It was incredibly weird because obviously, like, there's only so much that you can
put in a book and understand. I've never lived these experiences, and I've had friends from
there. I've had family that have lived over there. I also love history, so I'm a research nerd.
Yeah, you are.
I love research. I've also, you know, I live in a community where I have People around me,
they like that. But again, like, when you're a white author, and I
(35:44):
do think white authors can write people of color, and you can do it well, if...
Clearly you've hit something.
...if you acknowledge like, okay, this is just... it's gonna be what it's gonna be and I can never
fully... nobody can ever fully capture. And then she started telling me how, like, her grandpa,
like, you know, wasted all their money on tropical birds. And I was like, Where's that book?
(Laughter)
Oh, my God, I need to read this. Like, I hope that, like... Yeah,
(36:06):
no, but she was telling me this story and talking about her family,
and there was all of this stuff, and I was like, this is a book. Sometimes you don't
realize you have a story until somebody else tells a story that you connect to.
So the other thing that I have now accidentally done is I did a... so when
mob wife aesthetic was a big thing. And, I mean, I had Sunday O'Rorden, who is a,
mob housewife who becomes a leader of her own family.
(36:29):
Those little clips have been amazing.
Well her... and her family doctor, because everybody had
a family doctor because you can't go to the hospital with a gunshot wound,
Yeah, no.
...is a medical student whose name is Kai. And I put something in there so she has him
start working for her in order for him to pay for his, gender confirmation surgery.
(36:49):
And I got so many people in the comments being like, "Is she taking submissions?"
(Laughter)
And I think, like, again, as a cisgender woman in a world where there's, you know,
a lot of trans representation and not all of it's good, it was just really nice to see the community
feel seen and connected with. And he was a fully formed human being that is beyond just being a
(37:11):
transgender man. and I keep doing this, and I don't want to stop. I want to keep, like, finding
people that maybe just need a little oomph, and then they're like, "We like this. More!"
(laugh)
I think the other thing is, if you're a traditionally
trained artist and also you're kind of pretentious, which a lot of them are.
(Knowing Laughter)You know, if you do... If you do the Dartmouth
Creative writing program... I don't know if they have one...
(37:33):
(Laughter)
or, like, if you go to these very, very bougie, very well, respectable programs,
you get in a bubble, and you're not... like... I've been... You know, I've been in some very
strange places in my life. You're not going to the gay bar. You're not, going to the tailgate.
You're not going to, you know, you're not taking public transport. You're not really like seeing...
(37:55):
(Laugh)
You're not seeing people live their lives. And have to go to work and have kids and families...
No. You're just discussing it ethereally with your other carbon copy friends.
... no you sit there, with your quill, waxing poetically about the human condition,
when really the human condition is taking your trash out, it's making your coffee,
it's cleaning your house. Like you're interacting with people all day. But because they're not the
(38:15):
kind of interesting, like, intellectual people, they don't really see them as interesting, you
know, characters or interesting concepts. And they don't have depth. When really as a writer, like,
inspiration is happening all the time, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
That's honestly 90% of the best ideas come from those moments to be. As far as I'm concerned.
(38:37):
Yeah. No, sit in it. That's another piece of advice I hope people take away from this.
Unpack it. Cause that's where the good stuff lives. well,
I really appreciate you spending some time with me.
Absolutely
This conversation has been delightful.
Yes.
And so right now you have The Wonderful Lady B. Book three is on its way,
but you have books one and two out. And book one is audio.
(38:58):
Book one is audio. it's available through most streaming platforms. Spotify, Apple,
Chirp, all of those trying to stay off of Amazon for the time being.
I appreciate that.
Yeah. I mean, listen, I'll take a financial punch for my soul, but...
Are you working on anything else that's going to be on the radar soon?
So third book of The Wonderful Lady B will hopefully be due out late this year,
(39:19):
early next year. And then we have, In This Fair Chase,
which will hopefully be out by the summer. Fingers crossed.
Oooohhh
And then I have another submission for Sought that will hopefully be out
for their spring/summer quarterly. yeah, I've got stuff in the works. I'm also...
And I know I'm following you on as Glamour Possum on a few things, but are there any other places...
(39:40):
I'm Glamour Possum on everything currently in Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Patreon,
YouTube. you know, my website is also Glamour Possum. That is. That is where she's at.
It's such a perfect name. Thank you for all of this. This has been wonderful.
This turned out good.
[music by Douglas Appleman]
(40:08):
I think that went well.
I mean, it looked like it went well from over there.
Note... quite a story. Having to deal with the reality of everything that she worked for,
not being an option, like just literally being unavailable to even try anymore.
In my high school we called it Rose, Thorn & a Bud. Instead of Peaks and Valleys, you have a
(40:32):
very high high, a lowish low, and then something you're also looking forward to or working towards.
Oh, I do like that a lot better than the peaks and valleys thing. It's a little more optimism. But
what I want to lock in on, taking that motivation and moving it was prompted by other people before
she realized it was viable on her own. So I think she was lucky with a good support system. But
(40:57):
there's gotta be some method to make that self-actualizable. I don't think that's a word...
It can be.... but I think I communicated the concept.
yeah, I got it. Cool. I think you're right. There is definitely like it's
worth looking into a way to internalize that process and make it self contained.
(41:19):
Yeah.
I don't think the value of a support system that knows
your other strengths and can highlight them for you should be under played.
No... huge! Community and collaborators and having healthy support systems for that type
of stuff is always something I'm harping on. But I know that not everyone's lucky enough
to have that. Especially the people I most want to get this helpful information too.
(41:45):
Maybe one of your future conversations could be
about how to look for and build creative community.
ooOOo. Oh There's got toa be someone I can talk to about that. I need to
make a note. Might already have someone booked for that. No, that's good. Heck,
just inspiration farming alone. Like going back into her history and finding old collections of
(42:05):
work and things that she had kinda just pushed out of her life as in her past, and that turned
out to be where all the good ideas... ... It's one of those things I feel like everyone has, in
some creative way. With me it's the sketchbooks. You just have like piles and piles of sketches,
thumbnails, half done ideas. You've got to have something similar for that. Yeah.
(42:25):
Oh yeah. There's... I think at least five boxes of my old notebooks somewhere in my
mother's apartment. she's been trying to get me to, you know, go through and clean them out
because it's five boxes taking up space in her apartment... and I moved out ages ago. But...
What size boxes are we talking? Like shoe boxes or like moving boxes?
(42:50):
A little of column A, a little of column B.
That's so many notebooks.
(light laughter)Not all of them are like completely full.
Oh yeah.
When you're a kid and you like to write and you like to draw every family member
Gives you quote/unquote "pretty" notebooks for every holiday and birthday. So at least 20 of
(43:13):
them have like the first 15 pages scrawled on in my terrible 7 year old handwriting,
and then the rest is just blank because it's a "pretty" notebook.
Nope, that sounds, very, very familiar. I actually... I started a process to cope
with that when, because I kept moving a lot so I couldn't keep moving all these things
(43:36):
to all these apartments... but now I run a couple workshops helping other people do it and it works
great with drawing. I don't know if it'll work as well with writing, but I'm guessing there's
got to be a way to transfer the tactic. I just go through page by page and rip out every page
in a sketchbook and make different piles of: Maybe the work might be pretty, but like there's (43:52):
undefined
no inspiration there. It's just mechanical. Then there's running themes where if I keep
seeing like, oh, I was drawing this bee in this weird way and I did it like nine times over these
two books... group them together, hoping that a pattern emerges if I spot what else I'm drawing
(44:12):
around them. Then sketches that are good ideas that I just never developed. And things that
could just be turned into a painting or a finished illustration with, a few extra steps. And then
I'll take a new sketchbook and transfer doodles and sketches with new concepts and like maybe
some notes into the new book and just transfer into the future my old inspiration. There's
(44:36):
got to be a way to like do that with writing of looking for patterns, looking for themes.
Yeah. I think the whole ripping them out and making piles thing is probably less effective
with writing, but I could definitely use like my essay writing strategies where I have a bunch
of different colored post it notes and I clear a space on my wall and then I just map out the essay
with different colors for (44:58):
this is the source I'm going to use, this is the point I'm going
to make... and then I make a timeline of it on my wall and that's how I map out all of my finals.
Gotcha. that is how I tried to approach novel writing on my
first book. I did not bother trying it again with the second book. I am
not good at staying organized. (laugh) I know the tactics you're talking about...
(45:18):
No that's why you're friends with me.
Yes.
God, no. The amount of times you've helped with getting things in an order,
is a lot and valuable. And I've never loved you more than in those moments.
My love affair with spreadsheets is 'well documented' you could say.
(pained chuckle) That was terrible. I loved it.
Thanks,
But no... Her finding old ideas and then taking that with her love of costuming that
(45:43):
she'd forgotten about and kind of rebuilding these characters for the TikTokverse and then
turning it into a full story of these people's lives and sending that out into the world. That
she listened when all of her followers kept being like, "If this was a book, I'd buy it."
and then just made it a book and sold it. Sometimes it is just that straightforward.
I think there's a lot of, like, self doubt and everything caught up in, well,
(46:06):
if it's popular on social media, then it couldn't possibly be popular in quote/unquote "real life".
Yeeeaaah
And that's just not true. People commenting on your social media posts very positively
are real people behind the screen. Sometimes people are just being nice to you online.
I don't know. I think that's one blind spot I have, because illustration stuff, what people
(46:27):
do comment on and, like, is not often what sells. So, like, I'll get comments on my fan arty stuff.
Like the Deadpool Wolverine thing I did when the movie was coming out of, like, the Dirty
Dancing poster pose with the two of them, got a lot of good responses. It got a lot of activity
and never sold a print of it. It wasn't the thing that was gonna move, but it brought people there
(46:52):
who bought other stuff. The, friend of mine who does comics, he has his pitches for each book and,
like, the pitch might move the sale out. It's just, this is the idea. I like it. And it
sounds like for Lauren, TikTok provided a sort of amalgamated version of how to get that pitch out.
I think that's an important lesson. I don't know about anybody else, but I should figure that out.
(47:18):
I mean, you know me. I did not. This wasn't my plan A in any context.
Oh, you mean moving into a cafe, setting up an air mattress in the corner? This wasn't the life goal?
That was there when I got here,
I just found out it was unoccupied. It's not very comfortable. No. (laugh)
(47:39):
Well, no, there's several holes in it because
artists keep stabbing their quills in it, out of anger.
What is with everyone and the artist and the quills?
They're an aesthetic, Griffin!
How do you pitch anything you do? Like, do you have that as a thing built into your system yet?
Do I pitch anything? Have I pitched anything in my life ever? The answer is kind of twofold. I think
(48:05):
my biggest practical experience with pitching, anything would be auditions that I've done,
like auditions for drama school, auditions for shows and stuff like that. Because that is,
in a way, pitching. Here's who I am, here's what I can do, here's the scope of my abilities,
and that's where I'm comfortable pitching myself because I'm confident in those abilities. And then
(48:35):
pitching what I'm trying to achieve now gets a bit more complicated because that involves pitching
like... that I am a talented cosplayer who's good at sewing and good at garment construction,
but because I don't have the money for the materials to make the level of complicated
(49:00):
garment that I can make, I don't have photos to show anybody who wants to commission me.
Ah
And it turns into a cycle of like, okay, well,
I need money to make these things so that I can do commissions.
Yep.
I don't have that much experience actually pitching my current skill set and current focus
(49:24):
because it requires more of a portfolio build up than I have at the moment. So it's a work in
progress. I've found thrift shops very helpful for getting like large swaths of nice looking fabric.
Oh yeah, that's really smart. I do wish there was something like that. More for art supplies
with like a thrift shopy version. I'm sure there are, but I've never been aware of them.
(49:48):
[Phone alarm rings]
Oh crap. Well, this has been wonderful, but now I am actually late to do my Big
Adult Job (tm), so I need to go. But I will see you in the next day or two, I'm sure.
Yeah, sounds good. Have fun.
(50:21):
[music by Douglas Appleman]
I mean, they used to be. There's a lot of bots now,
but, hopefully... "hopefully" everyone commenting is real people.
The bots are all trying to get... Nope! Just gonna nope out of that. That wasn't going anywhere
that I want posted on the Internet. Is your podcast gonna have a blooper reel or something?
It definitely can. There's no reason not to.
(50:43):
Just... Oh, God. Have you seen that one... it was a prompt on
Make Some Noise. I don't know how much you watch any Dropout shows.
Thanks for listening. Head over to ShadedAreas.com/createartrepeat to
find out more about the show. Or head over to Patreon.com/createartrepeat to
(51:15):
support the show and get some neat swag as an option depending on what tier you decide
to support us at. And until next time, stay thoughtful, stay playful, and keep creating.
It's always fun, like, having people use things that you created in new, exciting ways.
I was very endeared with you nerding out about,
the Golden Door being included on the map. I didn't even think that that was, like, a thing.
No, it's so cute.
Like, a choice I made affected the world, and now it's on the map. And,
(00:22):
like, you're gonna do other campaigns in this world...
Oh yeah.
...that I will have no part of, presumably at some point.
But that Door will still be there.
That door is gonna be in that wall.
Yep.
I would love for it to operate kind of under Orpheus rules. You know,
like how Orpheus opened the ground with... because his song was, like,
(00:44):
so beautiful, he made the stones cry. And that's how he got to the underworld.
I generally know how it works. I just haven't thought through it yet.
You generally know how it works?
I heard me say it as soon... Yeah, I got... (laughter)
Sorry.
(laughter) No, I walked into that one.
[music by Douglas Appleman]
(01:06):
So I think I got it all sord out. Can I walk
you through what I think is gonna happen with this chat?
Sure. Go for it.
Neat. I know Lauren from a wedding she officiated, and then we hit it off, and she ended up living
in Salem, even though the wedding was in, like, New Jersey. She was a big theater person, like,
(01:26):
doing the New York City. I'm going to make it if I have to die trying. Run right before COVID hit. So
everything kneecapped there and in the rebuilding process, they have self published two books now,
and, I think they are working on a third. So I'm hoping to get some sort of update on that,
but I kind of just want to unpack how she bounced off of that surprise of,
(01:50):
like, I did everything right and nothing was ready to work at all.
Yeah, I mean, I also am very interested in how they pulled that off.
(laugh)
Where would you target if you were talking to someone with that kind of whiplash?
Ooooo. I think I would ask where their drive started from. Like, what at the start of this
(02:13):
process made them want to move to New York and do the whole New York thing? And then how did they
keep using that same drive and energy once it was clear that the original goal had to change?
Because that's something I've never been very good at. Once I know that a goal is unattainable,
(02:34):
I struggle with changing it to make it attainable. And sometimes I end up just
scrapping the goal completely and switching to something else, which doesn't feel as productive.
...make a note on that, cause that's huge...
Awesome. I will make sure she unpacks it if she doesn't do it by herself.
Sounds good.
(02:55):
I will check in with you in like 40 minutes... somewhere around there.
I will retreat over to my corner and the menu with the holes cut out of it.
I... there's a non-zero chance you actually did that.
Okay, I'll sit behind her and just make you giggle the entire time.
That should be great. (giggles) Thanks.
Have fun.
(03:19):
[music by Douglas Appleman]Lauren. Hi. How are you doing?
Hi. I'm doing good.
Thank you for making the time for this.
So mostly I just want to sort of unpack how you got
from where you were to where you wanted to be to where you are.
Okay.
Yeah, we're keeping it tiny today. Small talk.
Okay.
Yeah, no, just, just three major life events. Well, I did a lot of visual art when I was
(03:43):
younger and then sort of progressed into performance because I had like a really,
really, really active imagination. And my parents thought that it would be good for me to channel
that. So I started doing theater. I think also it was good, as most anxious kids will tell you,
you sort of forget that when you're on stage. So I think it was a little therapeutic in a way. So
(04:06):
I focused on theater for most of my career. Sounds like, I mean, I was still in school,
but I did like every pre college program. I did every local audition, I did every school play.
I was in show choir. I did all of the stuff, you know, basically like training since I was really
young, had my blinkers on. I really thought that I would have a career in performance.
(04:33):
and then I went to college and that sort of all derailed. I had a very meticulous expectation of
what the industry was going to be. And I quickly learned that it was not like that at all. It's,
you know, you can have all the training in the world, you can be right for a part,
you can look a certain way and all of that, but really, it doesn't really matter if quite
(04:55):
literally one time I got told in an audition, oh, you did great. But, our producer's niece
is coming in after you. And I realized why they told me that because this, this woman who was
running the auditions really did not want me to get my hopes up, which is a kindness in a way.
Great thing is also, it's not like a job interview where they will maybe inform you if they didn't
(05:17):
get the job. sometimes you find out when you see somebody else, the episode airs or you see them
make the cast announcement and then you're like, oh, I just waited saying no to other projects when
I potentially could have been not wasting my time, started realizing that wasn't go gonna work for
me. But still I think got in that trap that a lot of actors get into, which is like, well, I'm too
(05:40):
deep in the cult to really switch gears. Because it is like a cult, you know, you leave it and
it is like a cult where people are like, no, why would you leave like, oh, well, you know, I guess
you just weren't dedicated to the craft enough. you know, the supreme leader of SAG. But whatever.
I will say I was just having a conversation with someone yesterday about this idea that they,
(06:04):
there's this sort of picture that everyone gets when going into any
of these creative fields of what the path to success is supposed to be. And the idea
that they're just copying someone else's blueprint doesn't work because the door
never seems to be open for more than a second after each success story. Unless
you're someone's niece or have that sort of, uh, financial connection or like...
(06:28):
I think also in the arts too, you, you have to learn to bob and weave more than you do with any
other career because you know, you do not have for the most part a stable job. And also your
training is going to be very different. Whereas like I think also culturally we are taught you,
you pick something at 18 that you want to do for the rest of your life, you go to school for it,
(06:51):
you get into debt for it, and then it's supposed to pay off and then if it kind of doesn't, it's
your fault, you know, you didn't work hard enough. Whereas, you know, I picked the most unreliable
art to get into, which is theater. Depending on the mood and mental state of your instructors are
going to get a very different level of training. You're not going to get the same kind of training
(07:13):
that you would through every program. It's not engineering or architecture or you know,
even english. Things that have a little bit more of a structure to them. Also, depending
on where you go, I personally chose a program that would allow me to audition outside of the
program where a lot of them won't do that. But I wanted to work, I wanted on the ground experience.
(07:35):
Wait, programs don't allow some people or some programs don't allow that?
So if you go to a four year conservatory program, like a Carnegie Mellon for those
four years, you're in the shit. so you, you agree you are not going to take any
jobs. You are not going to audition. You are strictly there for training.
Oh God
(07:55):
But like, you know, you're getting those four years of a high intensity program and
you're also getting the connections that you can get going to a Carnegie Mellon. I
went to U Arts which would allow you to audition and a lot of people were
in productions when they were still going to school and they were doing movies and things
like that. and I thought that that would be good for me because I didn't want to
have four years and then I couldn't talk to anybody and I didn't know how to audition and
(08:18):
I didn't know how to you know, function in a working theater or on a working film set.
No. Sounds like you took the smarter... what makes
sense to me as a smarter path. I don't know how that works though.
You think that but so while this was all happening, you know, you are told, hey, you're
going to miss major life events, you're going to be a terrible friend, you're going to be a really
(08:38):
unreliable partner. You're going to eat cigarettes and live in tragedy. You're never going to make
enough money. your student debts will be passed on to your next of kin, assuming that you have time
to breed. You know, you basically get told your life's go going to suck, but that's the work.
That is an amazing narrative to be shoved into your face at that age.
Especially at 20 to 21 years old, which let's face it, you're not at your most emotionally stable
(08:59):
time period in your life. And for me also I come from a background of people that are
like very high rollers, high intelligent, high intensity jobs. My dad started his own business,
my mom was in real estate. My grandfather was an economics professor, my uncle's a lawyer,
my other uncle's a surgeon. My aunt is in finance.
Man the covenant bandwidth in your bloodline.
(09:21):
Like but so they all have these like very, you know, straight and narrow, you know,
you go into this and you do the work and then know you retire at 70 and then maybe you die.
But maybe, maybe you die.
Maybe you die, maybe get a couple more years. But so I realized as I'm going through the
training for theater, like I have the capacity to do those jobs and I'm starting to think like maybe
(09:44):
I want... stability in the art doesn't exist but like maybe I want something that's a little bit
more reliable and maybe I'm not depressed all the time and maybe I get rewarded for my hard work
and maybe there's something else out there. But then I always felt bad about it, and I was like,
well, maybe I don't want to just act. Maybe I want to... Maybe I want to direct,
(10:07):
and maybe I want to write, and maybe I want to produce. I want to... Like,
I have all these ideas. And then I would sort of get this pat on the head being like,
that's great, honey, but that's not the work. And my senior year of college,
I took a class that everybody is required to take called business of theater. And it basically is
taught by a guy named Neil Hartley, who still has had the biggest impact on me,
(10:28):
like, career wise. And it's basically how to do your taxes. It's how you make money. It's how...
Ahh the practical stuff.
It's practical stuff that you would think you get four years of that.
Yeah.You get A semester. So our final project,
you had to build a business plan. And I built what became Glamour Possum.
(10:51):
Which I still, to this day, every time I see that name, it just.
People love it.
It's so good.
He took me aside and he was like, hey, you have some, like,
you have ideas that I think an actual production company would be interested
in doing. I was like, Ah HA HA HAaaa. I had. What was it? I had, like, one,
woman's show about all the first ladies. I had an Alistair Crowley rock opera. And...
(11:14):
that sounds amazing
Right! Well, you know, I was like, okay, if I pitched this in an elevator,
how would I do? And Neil took me set. He goes, we need to put those aside somewhere,
and you need to save them. I floundered for five years, and I finally got my life together enough
to move to New York. And I was like, okay, I am gonna devote myself to the work. I was gonna do
the Melanie Griffith working girl thing. I was gonna live on Staten island and commute every day,
(11:38):
and I was gonna have 10,000 jobs and then, you know, spend all my money taking classes
with people that couldn't book it on SNL. And then, something happened... It was called Covid.
Yeah.
So I, within the span of a week, lost... the company that I was going toa be working
for shutdown. I lost my apartment. And, I had not renewed my lease in Philadelphia,
(12:01):
so I literally was going to be homeless. And my mom,
thank God. So my parents were watching me... I mean, just tank. And they went,
why don't you move home for two weeks? Because it was two weeks. We'll, you know, flatten the curve.
Right, Right.
Put my Stuff in a pod. We'll put your stuff in Storage and you just something will pop
up. And my dad kept being like, "It's New York. It's always gonna be there!" So six
(12:24):
months later my mom sets me down and has a very come to Jesus moment where she's like,
"Okay, so New York's never gonna happen." Like not in the next couple of years.
Like.. yeah, it's a Weeble Wobble, but it's not getting back up that fast
That thing that you're been building your
life around since you were 13 is not going to happen. And it was like...
No pressure. No pressure.
No, no, there wasn't any pressure. But I basically come to think of it now as
(12:44):
like it was a career ending injury. You know how sports.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Well they or dancers even you have that moment where somebody has to sit you down and go,
guess what? You're never gonna play football again.
Yeah, that knee is not gonna be...
Your body will not allow it. And if you attempt to do this you will just make it so much worse
on yourself. So I was like there is nothing else. Like it really was... my mom... I got deprogrammed
(13:11):
basically. Like when you leave a cult they tell you like there is nothing else. There's nothing
else I can do. And I literally was weeping in our at our kitchen table to my mom being like,
I'm a dumbass. I can't do anything else. I have no life skills. I can't do anything else. The only
other thing for me to do is go back to school and potentially take out another student loan and...
(13:32):
Oh god.
... end up in debt. And I mean I'm spiraling at this point. And my mom sits me down,
she goes "Okay, that's not going to happen. We're not telling you you have
to do any of that. We're just saying you have the ability to start over."
Honestly, the correlation of trying to deprogram from a cult is amazing. My
friend Meg is an anthropologist who focuses on that kind of study as her own interest
(13:53):
and with my forensic psychology background, like we have had so many deep conversations
about deprogramming structures. and that does sound on brand for what you you just explained
Well, because you think about it, you know, I was not, I was not the golden child. I wasn't a
sports kid. I wasn't really that I was good at school, but not to the point where I was like
excelling. And here you have all these people telling you that they're giving you attention
and you're getting praise and you're. It's really cute when you're a kid and you do these monologues
(14:17):
Right. With sports and stuff there is that more,
like, tangible... other people understand the path where acting in theater and stuff.
And also you're being seen. And, like, my big thing was I wanted to be seen.
And also I had this concept that's really toxic for female actors, which is, well,
if you're doing theater, you have to be on stage and people want to look at you,
so you must be pretty. And that was like. That was. That was currency for me.
(14:40):
Yeah, that extra layer.
And then, you know, it is. You get the attention and love that maybe you didn't get anywhere else.
And that's what a cult thrives on. and my mom is basically, like, telling me. She's like, again,
just this big come to Jesus moment where she's like, "How much money have you dumped into this?
And how much of your life have you wasted waiting on auditions or callbacks? And how long can you
(15:04):
realistically keep doing this?" and also, she was like, "and aren't your ideas also important?"
I love that somebody pinpointed that for you before it got too...
But my dad, too. Both of my... I was stuck in the house with my parents, and, you know,
like, to some people, that's a fucking nightmare. But my parents... Luckily,
I was born to two people that like me, and I like them. But both of my parents were like,
(15:27):
we've watched you have these little bursts of creativity where you wrote poetry,
you would do plays, you would come up with characters. You know, I was really
into cosplay. I would build costumes and, like, these little bursts of things where, you know,
somebody would compliment me and I'd be like, oh, well, I really want to be an actress. No,
I'm gonna be an actress. And so while I'm home at Covid, my parents literally brought all this stuff
(15:49):
up from the basement. They were like, look, you wrote part of a book. You wrote poetry.
Ah, so this is the pivot.
Well, in there was. I wrote a full book sophomore year of high school.
Oh my god. No... that's amazing.
Yeah, but so in that big pile of stuff was this whole ass book that I wrote,
and it was about a banshee living in Whitechapel, England,
(16:11):
during the Victorian era. And all of these. It's a little bit like, have you ever seen...
I'm seeing the connective tissue.
There's a series called Carnival Row that I would compare it to more,
Yes!
Where you have all these mythical creatures from different areas that would have immigrated,
living in the areas of people that, you know, were not.... They couldn't live anywhere else.
You know, Whitechapel was where A lot of immigrants lived. A lot of people who were
(16:33):
poor lived. A lot of sex workers lived. And I had that in my hand. I went through. And I was like,
oh, wait, this is like. You know, you read anything from when you're
a teenager and you're like, this sucks, but there's potential here.
No, I definitely remember finding stuff from when I was younger...
Everyone has that stuff that you pull out when you're an adult and you look at it and you go,
this is terrible, but I can work with this.
(16:55):
Yeah, there's that m millisecond of genius you can see in there.
But the techniques are still underdeveloped.
The seed has been planted, but maybe you need to repot it.
Yeah, that's a great metaphor. I love that.
So I moved to Salem. I have no friends, no job, no sofa. I have like... Well, because I move,
I... This is... again, I guess I was just sitting there being like, well, I'm gonna live here until
(17:17):
my lease runs out and then I'm gonna go back to New York. I'm just doing this to make...
Right...my parents happy because I'm still trying to
get to where I think I need to be. And I was also becoming very aware of, again,
great thing to be a female actor with... I was becoming really aware of my age.
The pressure on the ticking clock on that is... strange
Yeah. I was 26... and who's gonna want me when I'm 27? And, you know, I basically was like, well,
(17:43):
I guess I'm going to have to start writing because I'm getting old and ugly and fat.
Oh, God.
Which was. I mean, none of them are true, but that's how I felt. And again,
we were all. Everybody stuck in the house...
Do you have the actual, like, intrusive thought
thing where that interrupts other things... like, out of nowhere?
Oh god yeah. My intrusive... I mean, I described them as paralyzing. And I
(18:05):
think that the other thing was we were all so tuned into what everyone else was doing.
Oh, god. Yeah.
And as artists, too, we are always tuned into what everyone else is doing because you have friends
that are in the same industry as you. And, like, you get excited when you see them doing stuff
because you're like, oh, my God, I'm really glad that they started doing that. You know,
(18:25):
D&D campaign, or, I'm really excited that that person started painting again, or,
oh they're writing a song, or, oh they did a whole album. And, like, I feel like a lot of
people just started doing stuff during the pandemic, but a lot of other people we were
all paralyzed because you didn't know if somebody that you loved was going to get sick. You didn't
know if you were going toa get sick. And a lot of people did get sick. And then it was like,
(18:48):
how much time do I have left? Like, am I going to be able to live through this? Like,
it was just. You couldn't... you didn't feel like you could start anything. Because how do
you start something when you don't know what the next 24 hours are going to look like?
Oh, God. We had very different mental experiences through this. But I see what you're saying.
But while this is all hap-... I mean, this is just internally, externally, I was like, I have to do
(19:13):
something. and so I got a job in Salem and then I got another job working remote. And I was like,
okay, the creative, the backup is happening. Like, I haven't done anything creative because...
The creative backup I understand entirely. It's like that clog that
you feel of the pressure of all the ideas kind of not getting released.
(19:33):
Because the other thing that I want to talk... Like, being an artist,
you feel like you have to be working all the time on something very meaningful. And like,
when in reality a lot of us have other jobs. So some days are just work, laundry, more work,
pay a bill, go get your car fixed, go take your dog to the vet, go see friends. Like, it's not
always like sitting at a big desk with a quill in hand being like, what are my musings for today?
(19:58):
Are you making fun of my quill?
I have a quill! I also have a quill! But I think that to people that are not in the arts,
that is the aesthetic of being an artist. Like..
Yeah... a little flighty...
...we sit around in little sweaters with like, with our little coffee cups being like,
m, I'm gonna write poetry about asparagus. Like, and that was very much the,
(20:21):
the aesthetic of being an artist became really popular, I feel like,
on TikTok, because we all wanted to look like we were deep in the shit.
God, the projection that modern Internet has also created where it kind of reinforces this
weird ethereal image that is almost impossible to actually survive in.
And then you feel guilty when you look around and you've got like 10,000 pieces of paper and
like a half eaten sandwich and you're like, why the fuck can't I be this organized? Oh,
(20:44):
writers are supposed to be like, they're supposed to have like,
you know, cute little typewriters in their house and wear sweaters
and be impossibly thin, like naturally, when all they do is sit most the day.
One of my illustrator friends has a great curated image of herself on social media with, like,
these great little videos of her working. But then, like, she'll post the thing of,
(21:05):
like, I found this sketch. I have no idea when I did it... but I never finished it.
You know what the other thing is. Like, I feel like being an artist in the modern century,
you do kind of have to build a persona. And I say that because I do it too. If you go
through, like, my TikTok feed, my YouTube, my Instagram, like, I have a very crafted image.
You do. And you've done great at it.
Yeah. But then sometimes I'll post a picture where, like, I have no chin and I've been in
(21:28):
the same bathrobe for 10 hours. And, you know, I've been... 'cause I have to get something done.
And all this started forming during COVID for me. Cause I did get on TikTok and I was like,
I'm never gonna be... I'm an artist, a real artist. I don't have to do this.
Then because I was like, when was the last time I talked to somebody in person? Five
days ago. I need to do something with this 'cause, otherwise I'm gonna go insane. Well,
(21:53):
so that was when I saw people doing, like, little vignettes of characters and like...
Ahhh.
...you know, people, because everybody was dressing up.
You can always play make-believe when the real world is going to hell.
And I had always loved fashion,
and that was something that I feel like had been taken away from me being an actor...
Awww... because... well you have to be a canvas
(22:14):
yeeeaaahhh
It's literally about the...
I'm glad you pivoted away from that because your fashion sense is fucking astounding.
Well, because it was always something I liked and... but you know... My third book that I'm
writing is literally about how public versus private personas of actors are. Because you
have to be a canvas in one sense, but then you also have to be, you know,
you have to be likable and intelligent and open and earnest and fuckable,
(22:37):
but not too fuckable. And as a woman, you have to be young but not naive. And
you have to be mature, but you can't look old. I mean, it's The Substance.
I, can't wait to see the third book if that's where you got the angle.
Well, it's also a romantic comedy, but, like,
Of course.It's a lot of the main character kind
of untangling a lot of stuff that I had to untangle from.
I love that.That back to TikTok.
Yes.
You know people were dressing up as these characters and they were showing
(22:59):
everybody their cosplays and doing these little vignettes of characters. And I was like, ooh,
I like that. But the actor part of me was like, oh, I wanna like... I wanna dive into the... Who
is that person? In a ten second clip. Like, what is their life like? How did they get here? What
do they do? Who are they? And that was when, really, The Wonderful Lady B series was born.
(23:22):
Because I took my tripod out one day because Halloween got canceled in 2020, even though
more people came to Salem than we're supposed to. When the literal governor is begging you not to
come to a place that maybe you shouldn't go, but the streets were a little bit more empty, so you
could walk around. And it was fall and it was like that time where the air changes and really like...
Ahhh Salem being in autumnal...
Especially in New England, you know, you get that energy,
(23:45):
the perfect Over the Garden Wall energy. Yeah.
Oh, my God. But it... and it was. And I walked around with my tripod and I
shot myself walking. And then I had always been really good at, dialects.
Yeah.
And so I was like, I'll do, like, a fun voiceover dialect.
God. The first conversation we had in person after the wedding, like, when we hung out in Salem,
(24:05):
the number of voices you went through just sort of like walking me through your life was amazing.
Well that's just how... That's how my head is. Like, in my head... I've always watched
how people, like, act and they move and they speak and everybody has little, you know...
You're a shapeshifter at that level. Like, you're a changling.
That's what my mom says. She's like, you're like a chameleon. Or. She also
says I'm like a parrot because I can mimic what I hear really,
(24:29):
really well. So I did the high British RP and I showed it to people, and they were like, "More!"
Yeah!
And I'm like... okay. And I started thinking like, okay,
this is my first... like, writing credit. Like, this is something that I've always wanted to do,
but what can I write about continuously? And I never get bored of. And I love.
(24:50):
Like, that's the other thing I would....
That is the other thing.
If we're giving advice, you have to find the thing that you can
talk about somebody for hours and you don't get bored of talking about it.
Yeah. If you're trying to do the work for the sake of it being THE good idea that
someone else told you was the good idea, but you're not into it, it doesn't work same way.
Well, you sometimes you know,
you will have those. You get positive feedback, and you want to keep going,
(25:13):
Of course.But you do have to have internal passion for it.
Yeah.
And that was very much what happened. And I was like, what are things that I... What does Lauren
like? What. Not what Lauren wants to project as a performer, but what do I like as a person?
And I was like, well, like, I like history, I like gothic horror, I like mythology,
(25:34):
and I like historical fashion. So from those four things, I was like, okay,
so I can keep doing this. And I went back a little bit to the book that I had written. Cause I had a
template a little bit... I changed a lot. But I was like, love. I love Irish mythology. I've
always loved Irish mythology. There's. I mean, obviously being Irish American,
(25:56):
there's a connection there. But I've always loved the concept, too, that every culture,
no matter where you go, has the concept of a beautiful woman that's also a monster.
Yeeaaah.
In every culture, there's always, you know, she's either like a snake,
but she's got the face of a beautiful woman, or.
Or a seal secretly.
Or a banshee or she's a deer. There's always some connection to nature,
(26:17):
but there's always that, oh, she... she's gonna get you.
(laughter)
And, you know, I just. I was always really called to that. And I was like, well,
what if the myth of the beautiful woman who's a monster, what if she didn't start out that way?
Like, what. She just wasn't this ephemeral thing that was born and was evil. Well she's a victim...
This isn't where... this wasn't plan A. A number of things went wrong that got me here.
No. and also, like, I think also culturally,
(26:38):
we demonize women a lot without really looking, like, okay, how did we get here?
It's still sort of the fucking default.
Like, what happened to her? Why are you like this? You know? And
I really dove into that. And then I did a couple of episodes where I
started getting messages from people on TikTok and, like, comments are public...
Right.So these people are telling me publicly, like,
I... I'm an SA survivor, and I'm a survivor of child abuse...and I identify with this. And,
(27:05):
like, sometimes I would have to go for a walk... because...
Right. That's a lot of emotional...
You'll get people who are so like... when they connect when they connect with something and it
hits in a certain place, they want to get it out, and they want to talk to you about it.
Right. Because now you're the conduit that they're feeling it again through.
Because something has activated in them, where they're like,
Yeah.
Oh my god this makes sense to me, and I see, like... And I would have to, like,
just go for a very Long walk after reading some of that because you... ... I feel for these people.
(27:30):
Do you know the concept of a sin eater from, Catholic Mythos? It's this idea of
like excommunicated members of the church, people who could not get absolution upon
death. They would hire an excommunicated priest to perform a ritual where they.
No! Oh! I do! I know what you're talking about. Its like what the word was.
it feels like you kind of picked up your own version of that in this process.
(27:50):
I did! And there were a lot of people with religious trauma and there were
a lot of people that just. That we were all like, coping through the worst thing.
Yeah.
And I was like, I have to keep doing this. And then BookTok became a big thing.
BookTok really picked up, yeah.Because everyone was reading. Because there was
nothing else to do. Barnes & Noble literally came back from the dead.
And TV shows weren't recording and movies had gone.
(28:10):
Nobody was doing anything. The only thing we had was books. And so then I kept seeing in the
comments, "If this was a book, I would buy it." - "If this was a book, I would buy it." And I...
Right
Okay, well I'll make a book, but I won't sell it. I'll just give it to people that
I know. And then, you know, I told my parents I was writing a book and my dad
goes... well, you know, he had a friend who was a printer, who,
(28:33):
well, my dad, for his business, had to have a guy print things for him...
Of course.
...like pamphlet and when he would go to conventions and things, and he was like,
well, you know, could. We could print a couple copies and I could fiddle around
with... maybe you get a. I'll connect you with the person that helps me sell stuff
through my website and you two talk. And I was like, okay, sure, yeah, whatever, dad.
(laughter)
I'm very lucky in the sense that I had people tell me what I needed to do because my dad
(28:58):
started his own business and he was watching me sort of formulate the idea of this being
a business and was right there and was supportive and was like, listen, I don't know anything about
fiction writing or publishing or any of that, but what I do know is that you have something
that people want to buy and you have to make it accessible to them because...
(29:19):
Yeah, the concepts of supply and demand and the ability to
make it tangible for an audience is a different
Concepts of supply and demand and like the ability to make it tangible for an
audience that is a different grounded thing that can replicate very easily.
Right and I also think he watching me still hang on to the acting thing. When he was like,
but you're so good at this other thing. Like, why don't you try to make this a
job and you can make money off of this and you can build a, build a career that,
you know, you didn't.... And I, I just kept telling him like, dad, I'm 27. It's too late.
(29:43):
Oh God.
And I'm like, I can't do anything else. And he's like, "but you're doing it right now".
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm, I'm so glad that somebody not identified that for you.
But It's the imposter syndrome too... of like, well, I'm doing this, but it's not real.
Yeah.
You self-published your first book and your website crashed
What's real anymore? Like, you know, people self publish all the time. I
published the first book and my website crashed. I made $3,000 in the first day.
(30:08):
That's amazing.
And I was, I had never, never made that much money from any acting job ever.
And this was the first book of The Wonderful Lady B?
This was the first one, The Wonderful Lady B: Volume 1.
And this is one that you came out with an audio version of recently.
Yes. So we did the audio version for that. My friend Val, worked... They worked as a sound
(30:29):
technician for a theater and they had all of this stuff. And so, you know, this was, I mean, three
years after I had the first book come out. But the first book came out and I was like, oh, this is,
this is what I do now. I think I'm an author. and then it started to turn into, well, what else can
I do? I had the book come out and then I had my friend Nathan who wrote um... it's a sex-positive,
(30:56):
vintage-style publication called Sought and he was like, hey, now that you're published...
Oh, yes!
... do you want to write something for me? And I was like, I don't know about that. I told him
no a couple of times before. But... I was like, well, I have a platform now. Why don't I try to
sell a couple copies of the magazine? Because the more copies sell, Nathan gets more money,
the actual models will probably get more money and then I'll get more money. And
(31:18):
I told... I tell my parents everything because I never want anything I do to be a surprise. I
also don't think anything I do is that bad. So I wrote my first submission to Sought,
which has now inspired the third book that I'm writing, which is not the one...
I love that there's a third one.
It's the romantic comedy. It's going to be called:
In This Fair Chase, and it's about a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream.
(31:40):
Oh, that's go going toa be Amazing.
But it was inspired by something I wrote for Sought and I told my parents,
and my mom was like, well, we can't stop you from doing anything. You're an adult. And also,
you don't listen to us anyway. But she was like, are you naked in the magazine? I go,
no. And then my dad kind of. I told my dad what it was, and I showed him an example,
and my dad goes, well, you know, Lauren, a lot of. A lot of really important people
wrote for Playboy. You know, Margaret Atwood, Truman Capote, Shel Silverstein. And I'm like,
(32:04):
my dad has never read Margaret Atwood a day in his life. God bless him.
(laughter)
Not his vibe. So I'm like, did he just Google people that wrote for
Playboy so he could, like, feel better about this?
That's a likely outcome.
I'm Sought's... I'm the contributing fiction writer for SoughT and doing
that. And then people were buying the book, and then I did. I started getting,
like, feedback from people, too, that I don't think... also... as an artist,
(32:25):
you realize sometimes impact your art has on people that you weren't expecting.
Right.
You write the book. You... you write it the way that you want it to be,
and you make it the way that you want it to be. And then when you publish it,
it's like your kid goes to college and they become their own person and they develop their own lore.
Yeah.
And people will meet them, and that will change how they're viewed. And one of the things
(32:46):
that I wasn't expecting with the first book, specifically, I had a lot of people who were,
fans of one of the characters who were people living with disabilities.
Oh?
Didn't intend it. Because...
Yeah
In the first book, one of the love interests, Felix,
he becomes, through illness, he has to use a wheelchair.
(33:08):
Yeah.
And the way that I wrote it, I had this one woman who was so, so sweet come to my... come to one of
my author events, and she walked with a cane, and she came up and she was like, thank you so
much for writing him like a person. But my first response was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You
don't understand. See, I'm terrible, and I don't know what I'm doing. There's got to be way better
stuff out there for you with. With disability representation. And. And I sat there, and then
(33:32):
I was like, but maybe there isn't? And, like, maybe it is out there, but she hasn't found it
yet. And maybe this was the first thing that she read where she was like: "This is what I want."
No, this is One of those things of, like, the number of people I know
who intentionally try to make those moments where they end up tokenizing
someone without meaning to. Where you were just treating it like a character. So...
But again, don't. I didn't intend for that. But I was also just like, okay, well, here he is. Like,
(33:57):
hope you don't mind. Nobody, did. And a lot of people have been very wonderful
about that. And then I also, I did an event called Oberon's Coffee Society. And I had...
That's a great name.
... a girl come to me who was... She'd been reading my stuff for a while,
and she'd been a fan of my stuff for a while, and we finally met in person and she was like,
I want to write my own stuff because of you. And I've gotten that too, a bunch of times.
(34:20):
That's amazing.
Well, her story sticks out to me because the second book hadn't come out yet. And
the second book, there's a character who, is from ancient Joseon, which is, what North and
South Korea were before they were North and South Korea. They were the kingdom of Joseon. And she
comes up to me and she's like, I've never... I've never found something with a love interest from
(34:41):
there that treats again, like a person. And he's not really fetishized, and he's got his
own [ ] going on and he has his struggles. And, you know, some of them are cultural,
but a lot of them are personal. And she's like, you know, I'm not really connected with my culture
because my parents are immigrants and they don't like to talk about it for, very good reason.
I mean... yeah.
I mean... immigrant trauma is a real thing, and...
(35:01):
It really is.
She said, but I want to, like, I want to write more about stuff that comes from my culture,
and I have a really hard time connecting to it. And it was just. It was nice to read
that. And the other part of me, again, I want to be like, no, no, no, no, no.
Yeah!There's way better shit out there. Like,
please go find it. And then I was like, maybe she hasn't found it yet.
How weird is that... as like a white person?
(35:23):
It was inse... It was incredibly weird because obviously, like, there's only so much that you can
put in a book and understand. I've never lived these experiences, and I've had friends from
there. I've had family that have lived over there. I also love history, so I'm a research nerd.
Yeah, you are.
I love research. I've also, you know, I live in a community where I have People around me,
they like that. But again, like, when you're a white author, and I
(35:44):
do think white authors can write people of color, and you can do it well, if...
Clearly you've hit something.
...if you acknowledge like, okay, this is just... it's gonna be what it's gonna be and I can never
fully... nobody can ever fully capture. And then she started telling me how, like, her grandpa,
like, you know, wasted all their money on tropical birds. And I was like, Where's that book?
(Laughter)
Oh, my God, I need to read this. Like, I hope that, like... Yeah,
(36:06):
no, but she was telling me this story and talking about her family,
and there was all of this stuff, and I was like, this is a book. Sometimes you don't
realize you have a story until somebody else tells a story that you connect to.
So the other thing that I have now accidentally done is I did a... so when
mob wife aesthetic was a big thing. And, I mean, I had Sunday O'Rorden, who is a,
mob housewife who becomes a leader of her own family.
(36:29):
Those little clips have been amazing.
Well her... and her family doctor, because everybody had
a family doctor because you can't go to the hospital with a gunshot wound,
Yeah, no.
...is a medical student whose name is Kai. And I put something in there so she has him
start working for her in order for him to pay for his, gender confirmation surgery.
(36:49):
And I got so many people in the comments being like, "Is she taking submissions?"
(Laughter)
And I think, like, again, as a cisgender woman in a world where there's, you know,
a lot of trans representation and not all of it's good, it was just really nice to see the community
feel seen and connected with. And he was a fully formed human being that is beyond just being a
(37:11):
transgender man. and I keep doing this, and I don't want to stop. I want to keep, like, finding
people that maybe just need a little oomph, and then they're like, "We like this. More!"
(laugh)
I think the other thing is, if you're a traditionally
trained artist and also you're kind of pretentious, which a lot of them are.
(Knowing Laughter)You know, if you do... If you do the Dartmouth
Creative writing program... I don't know if they have one...
(37:33):
(Laughter)
or, like, if you go to these very, very bougie, very well, respectable programs,
you get in a bubble, and you're not... like... I've been... You know, I've been in some very
strange places in my life. You're not going to the gay bar. You're not, going to the tailgate.
You're not going to, you know, you're not taking public transport. You're not really like seeing...
(37:55):
(Laugh)
You're not seeing people live their lives. And have to go to work and have kids and families...
No. You're just discussing it ethereally with your other carbon copy friends.
... no you sit there, with your quill, waxing poetically about the human condition,
when really the human condition is taking your trash out, it's making your coffee,
it's cleaning your house. Like you're interacting with people all day. But because they're not the
(38:15):
kind of interesting, like, intellectual people, they don't really see them as interesting, you
know, characters or interesting concepts. And they don't have depth. When really as a writer, like,
inspiration is happening all the time, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
That's honestly 90% of the best ideas come from those moments to be. As far as I'm concerned.
(38:37):
Yeah. No, sit in it. That's another piece of advice I hope people take away from this.
Unpack it. Cause that's where the good stuff lives. well,
I really appreciate you spending some time with me.
Absolutely
This conversation has been delightful.
Yes.
And so right now you have The Wonderful Lady B. Book three is on its way,
but you have books one and two out. And book one is audio.
(38:58):
Book one is audio. it's available through most streaming platforms. Spotify, Apple,
Chirp, all of those trying to stay off of Amazon for the time being.
I appreciate that.
Yeah. I mean, listen, I'll take a financial punch for my soul, but...
Are you working on anything else that's going to be on the radar soon?
So third book of The Wonderful Lady B will hopefully be due out late this year,
(39:19):
early next year. And then we have, In This Fair Chase,
which will hopefully be out by the summer. Fingers crossed.
Oooohhh
And then I have another submission for Sought that will hopefully be out
for their spring/summer quarterly. yeah, I've got stuff in the works. I'm also...
And I know I'm following you on as Glamour Possum on a few things, but are there any other places...
(39:40):
I'm Glamour Possum on everything currently in Instagram, TikTok, Substack, Patreon,
YouTube. you know, my website is also Glamour Possum. That is. That is where she's at.
It's such a perfect name. Thank you for all of this. This has been wonderful.
This turned out good.
[music by Douglas Appleman]
(40:08):
I think that went well.
I mean, it looked like it went well from over there.
Note... quite a story. Having to deal with the reality of everything that she worked for,
not being an option, like just literally being unavailable to even try anymore.
In my high school we called it Rose, Thorn & a Bud. Instead of Peaks and Valleys, you have a
(40:32):
very high high, a lowish low, and then something you're also looking forward to or working towards.
Oh, I do like that a lot better than the peaks and valleys thing. It's a little more optimism. But
what I want to lock in on, taking that motivation and moving it was prompted by other people before
she realized it was viable on her own. So I think she was lucky with a good support system. But
(40:57):
there's gotta be some method to make that self-actualizable. I don't think that's a word...
It can be.... but I think I communicated the concept.
yeah, I got it. Cool. I think you're right. There is definitely like it's
worth looking into a way to internalize that process and make it self contained.
(41:19):
Yeah.
I don't think the value of a support system that knows
your other strengths and can highlight them for you should be under played.
No... huge! Community and collaborators and having healthy support systems for that type
of stuff is always something I'm harping on. But I know that not everyone's lucky enough
to have that. Especially the people I most want to get this helpful information too.
(41:45):
Maybe one of your future conversations could be
about how to look for and build creative community.
ooOOo. Oh There's got toa be someone I can talk to about that. I need to
make a note. Might already have someone booked for that. No, that's good. Heck,
just inspiration farming alone. Like going back into her history and finding old collections of
(42:05):
work and things that she had kinda just pushed out of her life as in her past, and that turned
out to be where all the good ideas... ... It's one of those things I feel like everyone has, in
some creative way. With me it's the sketchbooks. You just have like piles and piles of sketches,
thumbnails, half done ideas. You've got to have something similar for that. Yeah.
(42:25):
Oh yeah. There's... I think at least five boxes of my old notebooks somewhere in my
mother's apartment. she's been trying to get me to, you know, go through and clean them out
because it's five boxes taking up space in her apartment... and I moved out ages ago. But...
What size boxes are we talking? Like shoe boxes or like moving boxes?
(42:50):
A little of column A, a little of column B.
That's so many notebooks.
(light laughter)Not all of them are like completely full.
Oh yeah.
When you're a kid and you like to write and you like to draw every family member
Gives you quote/unquote "pretty" notebooks for every holiday and birthday. So at least 20 of
(43:13):
them have like the first 15 pages scrawled on in my terrible 7 year old handwriting,
and then the rest is just blank because it's a "pretty" notebook.
Nope, that sounds, very, very familiar. I actually... I started a process to cope
with that when, because I kept moving a lot so I couldn't keep moving all these things
(43:36):
to all these apartments... but now I run a couple workshops helping other people do it and it works
great with drawing. I don't know if it'll work as well with writing, but I'm guessing there's
got to be a way to transfer the tactic. I just go through page by page and rip out every page
in a sketchbook and make different piles of: Maybe the work might be pretty, but like there's (43:52):
undefined
no inspiration there. It's just mechanical. Then there's running themes where if I keep
seeing like, oh, I was drawing this bee in this weird way and I did it like nine times over these
two books... group them together, hoping that a pattern emerges if I spot what else I'm drawing
(44:12):
around them. Then sketches that are good ideas that I just never developed. And things that
could just be turned into a painting or a finished illustration with, a few extra steps. And then
I'll take a new sketchbook and transfer doodles and sketches with new concepts and like maybe
some notes into the new book and just transfer into the future my old inspiration. There's
(44:36):
got to be a way to like do that with writing of looking for patterns, looking for themes.
Yeah. I think the whole ripping them out and making piles thing is probably less effective
with writing, but I could definitely use like my essay writing strategies where I have a bunch
of different colored post it notes and I clear a space on my wall and then I just map out the essay
with different colors for (44:58):
this is the source I'm going to use, this is the point I'm going
to make... and then I make a timeline of it on my wall and that's how I map out all of my finals.
Gotcha. that is how I tried to approach novel writing on my
first book. I did not bother trying it again with the second book. I am
not good at staying organized. (laugh) I know the tactics you're talking about...
(45:18):
No that's why you're friends with me.
Yes.
God, no. The amount of times you've helped with getting things in an order,
is a lot and valuable. And I've never loved you more than in those moments.
My love affair with spreadsheets is 'well documented' you could say.
(pained chuckle) That was terrible. I loved it.
Thanks,
But no... Her finding old ideas and then taking that with her love of costuming that
(45:43):
she'd forgotten about and kind of rebuilding these characters for the TikTokverse and then
turning it into a full story of these people's lives and sending that out into the world. That
she listened when all of her followers kept being like, "If this was a book, I'd buy it."
and then just made it a book and sold it. Sometimes it is just that straightforward.
I think there's a lot of, like, self doubt and everything caught up in, well,
(46:06):
if it's popular on social media, then it couldn't possibly be popular in quote/unquote "real life".
Yeeeaaah
And that's just not true. People commenting on your social media posts very positively
are real people behind the screen. Sometimes people are just being nice to you online.
I don't know. I think that's one blind spot I have, because illustration stuff, what people
(46:27):
do comment on and, like, is not often what sells. So, like, I'll get comments on my fan arty stuff.
Like the Deadpool Wolverine thing I did when the movie was coming out of, like, the Dirty
Dancing poster pose with the two of them, got a lot of good responses. It got a lot of activity
and never sold a print of it. It wasn't the thing that was gonna move, but it brought people there
(46:52):
who bought other stuff. The, friend of mine who does comics, he has his pitches for each book and,
like, the pitch might move the sale out. It's just, this is the idea. I like it. And it
sounds like for Lauren, TikTok provided a sort of amalgamated version of how to get that pitch out.
I think that's an important lesson. I don't know about anybody else, but I should figure that out.
(47:18):
I mean, you know me. I did not. This wasn't my plan A in any context.
Oh, you mean moving into a cafe, setting up an air mattress in the corner? This wasn't the life goal?
That was there when I got here,
I just found out it was unoccupied. It's not very comfortable. No. (laugh)
(47:39):
Well, no, there's several holes in it because
artists keep stabbing their quills in it, out of anger.
What is with everyone and the artist and the quills?
They're an aesthetic, Griffin!
How do you pitch anything you do? Like, do you have that as a thing built into your system yet?
Do I pitch anything? Have I pitched anything in my life ever? The answer is kind of twofold. I think
(48:05):
my biggest practical experience with pitching, anything would be auditions that I've done,
like auditions for drama school, auditions for shows and stuff like that. Because that is,
in a way, pitching. Here's who I am, here's what I can do, here's the scope of my abilities,
and that's where I'm comfortable pitching myself because I'm confident in those abilities. And then
(48:35):
pitching what I'm trying to achieve now gets a bit more complicated because that involves pitching
like... that I am a talented cosplayer who's good at sewing and good at garment construction,
but because I don't have the money for the materials to make the level of complicated
(49:00):
garment that I can make, I don't have photos to show anybody who wants to commission me.
Ah
And it turns into a cycle of like, okay, well,
I need money to make these things so that I can do commissions.
Yep.
I don't have that much experience actually pitching my current skill set and current focus
(49:24):
because it requires more of a portfolio build up than I have at the moment. So it's a work in
progress. I've found thrift shops very helpful for getting like large swaths of nice looking fabric.
Oh yeah, that's really smart. I do wish there was something like that. More for art supplies
with like a thrift shopy version. I'm sure there are, but I've never been aware of them.
(49:48):
[Phone alarm rings]
Oh crap. Well, this has been wonderful, but now I am actually late to do my Big
Adult Job (tm), so I need to go. But I will see you in the next day or two, I'm sure.
Yeah, sounds good. Have fun.
(50:21):
[music by Douglas Appleman]
I mean, they used to be. There's a lot of bots now,
but, hopefully... "hopefully" everyone commenting is real people.
The bots are all trying to get... Nope! Just gonna nope out of that. That wasn't going anywhere
that I want posted on the Internet. Is your podcast gonna have a blooper reel or something?
It definitely can. There's no reason not to.
(50:43):
Just... Oh, God. Have you seen that one... it was a prompt on
Make Some Noise. I don't know how much you watch any Dropout shows.
Thanks for listening. Head over to ShadedAreas.com/createartrepeat to
find out more about the show. Or head over to Patreon.com/createartrepeat to
(51:15):
support the show and get some neat swag as an option depending on what tier you decide
to support us at. And until next time, stay thoughtful, stay playful, and keep creating.
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