April 4, 2025 • 61 mins
This episode I'm pulling threads Yes, And-ing with Madelyn Murphy to unravel the aspects of intention versus outcome, the facade of "missing your big chance" and how opportunity is more about community and openness than all or nothing moment.
Madelyn Murphy is a Co-Founder of High Stakes Productions (Chicago) and professional Dungeons & Dragons player, currently starring Off-Broadway in "The Twenty-Sided Tavern"
Where to find Maddie online.
https://www.instagram.com/mad.mad.murphy/
Support Create - Art - Repeat
https://www.patreon.com/createartrepeat
Credits:
Music: Douglas Appleman - http://www.Douglas-Appleman.com/
Copyeditor/Proofreader: Reed Floarea - https://www.floareaindexing.com/
Co-Host: Archer Ezra Rosenbloom - https://www.instagram.com/cos_and.effect
Co-Host: Griffin Ess - https://www.shadedareas.com/
Original date of episode publication: April 5th, 2025
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
one thing about wearing a corset, you cannot have bad
posture because it hurts.
Oh, corset question. A friend of
mine got a corset top.
Ah.
Once everything's pulled as tightly as the
cords will allow, it's still a little loose. Is there
any trick to make it more snug despite
that fact?
(00:21):
Short of just straight up altering it?
No.
That's what I thought. I just promised them -
I would'happy to. alter it for them.
It's something I'm capable of doing.
I will put on the table an offer of having
you alter, and see if that is a
priority for her.
(00:41):
A different thing that I also need to practice for,
which is an audition for a bunch of rep
companies. It's an opportunity for actors to
get in front of a bunch of people at the
same time.
It's like a big pitch event.
Yeah. I'm in the process of
figuring out if I'm gonna do that.
(01:01):
So if I go and I show up when
the building opens at 8, and I get an early
audition slot, then I could feasibly be back
in the city for my noon class.
Yeah.
If I go and
the 10am to 1pm
lunch break space is already completely
(01:21):
filled.
Yeah.
I've already trekked all the way out here. Do I wait in the holding room for
hours to sing the 16 bars
and do a tiny monologue and miss all of my
classes for the day?
I thankfully have never had to deal with that level of triage.
There's not a lot of cattle calling for, illustration work.
Do they still call it that?
I've not heard that term used, but that doesn't mean it's not
(01:44):
okay.
Gotcha. No, my friend who does independent
films now, but was primarily an actress for a long
time, she constantly called them cattle calls. So that's what got stuck
in my head.
One of the main reasons I'm looking at the
rep opportunities is
that's a slightly
a less high octane
(02:04):
method of getting into Equity.
It is an Equity audition. What I would be going
to is the second day where they are
accepting non-union auditions.
but if you audition and get into a
production where most of the actors are Equity, then
you can make a decent case for applying to join the union. And
(02:26):
once you're in the union, then
auditions get a lot easier.
Gotcha.
I don't know how much familiarity you have
with audition season.
Is this theater specific?
Yes.
okay. I'm only- Actors Equity is-
This is loosely familiar, but not accurately
familiar to me.
(02:46):
If you're Non-union. And you want to
go to like, you want to audition for these Equity
shows. What you do is you show up and
you put your name on a list and you
wait. And if at the end of the day,
after the producers and casting directors have seen all of
the people in Equity who got their reserve time
slots, if they agree to see non union
(03:08):
people, then you go in in order
of the list that you put your name on at 4 in the
morning.
Oh, God.
And then you sing and dance for the people.
Have you ever experienced an old
school style Black Friday?
I've never experienced a modern Black Friday.
I stay far away from it.
(03:31):
I've heard. People would literally, after
Thanksgiving dinner and stuff, they'd go home, take a nap and
then at like 1:00am, everyone would start lining
up outside of stores in the cold and just
wait until 7:00am, 8:00am when places opened up
and they just stampede in. And this sounds like
that as a constant norm. And I hate everything you
(03:51):
just explained.
Yeah.
So, yeah, no, you're going to be a little excited about this one.
Today I'm talking to Maddie from Twenty Sided Tavern.
Okay. That's so cool!
I was very surprised. I had sent a cold
DM to, her and a couple other people who I don't
actually know in person at all. And she bit hard
(04:11):
and I'm very much looking forward to what kind of weird
nonsense I can learn from her about what she's been up to.
That's so exciting. I am such a big fan
of her. I've been to the show
seven times and-
no, she's fantastic. It doesn't matter
what role she's in. She pulls focus.
Right. She just always has like little standout moments.
(04:33):
Yeah, yeah. Her storylines are the ones that stick
with me.
I really, before they vanish to do
their touring, I definitely need to see her in the
DM role live.
Oh yeah.
It's a moral imperative.
Absolutely.
Yeah. She should be here in a minute. So I'm go going toa get a refill and I will check
in with you, about 45.
(04:54):
Okay. Ill be over in the corner just geeking
out.
Maddie! Good to see you.
Oh, hey, Griffin! So good to see you too.
(05:15):
I'm so glad you decided to sit down with me on this. I'm very much
looking forward to talking to you and getting your perspective on this weird stuff I'm
trying to unpack.
thank you for inviting me and wanting to hear my
goofy internal little thoughts about it. I'm really
excited to unpack this with you.
To dive in as hard as possible...
Let's do it. Dive in hard.
(05:35):
So I'm familiar with you from, your Twenty Sided Tavern
stuff out of New York. I attended one of the shows sort of on
a whim when I was visiting my friend Julia.
Did the like, last minute rush thing. Me and all the DnD
players that I run games for. So it was
absolutely perfect. And I am so glad
you responded because I didn't have a really easy hook.
(05:55):
So far I think everyone else I've talked to, like,
knows me personally. You're the first person who I was
able to get who doesn't really know me personally.
So I appreciate this hugely.
Yeah, you sent me a DM that was just like
really lovely and exciting. I also just love to
talk, so I want to give mad props to...
Hey, a cold DM, A cold email I
(06:17):
have so much respect for because you
throw it out there. And it was so well written. I
was very eager to respond. So good on you
for having good cold DM.
I'm really glad to hear that because that's always a really tense thing to
try to navigate.
Yeah, I've been there too. And you take it so personally.
Right.
Even in all likelihood, that person just didn't see
(06:38):
it or they don't have bandwidth or whatever. It is not personal,
but it's so deeply vulnerable to send
something out there. So I get it.
No, I've been really lucky that everyone's been excited about this so
far, but it is one of those things that, like, so I was talking
to my friend Lindsay and we were talking about that
concept of people on different tiers of
clout within industry, especially theater industry.
(07:01):
and how for you, as somebody
who has no real sense of your reputation yet,
it's strange to try to reach up. But for
even people with reputation and clout, like, you're still just
theater people who love creativity and like,
it's not as weird to them as it is to the person trying to reach
up.
Oh my gosh. I don't. I
(07:22):
have so many quick thoughts about this. you said the word
clout, and I truly am.
I'm a goblin. Like, I play a goblin.
It's so funny for you to say clout,
because to me, you and I are peers
and I just don't feel- it's interesting.
... perhaps this is quite a bit of catching up to myself.
(07:43):
... quite a bit of imposter syndrome.
But, I certainly don't consider myself somebody, with
clout or any of That. I just find myself
to be extremely stoked to be here. But at the same
time... I want to give credence to what you're saying.
I think for all of us this is a massive journey
of creativity and sometimes
(08:05):
just taking stock and appreciating every moment.
And I guess, yes, right now I am a
professional full time actor and it's
incredible and it's humbling and I'm so fucking stoked
every day. But it also is, this is very
recent for me, and also non-linear.
And so I also want to appreciate that because so it's wonderful for you to
be like (08:27):
"Hey, look at you!" And...
I'm like (08:29):
"Look at me!? What!?!"
Perspective is such a funny thing.
Let's talk about the
non-linear aspect because that has been a
running theme. And it's one of the things I most want to highlight because I
do think there's this toxic projection of:
"Here's how creativity is supposed to work as a profession, and you
succeed by these very few narrow paths." And I've never found it
(08:50):
to be true. And I found people who chased those very narrow paths
to end up, very frustrated and very much
like in this pool of people who are following the same advice with no
actual exits.
Yeah, I think that's a great thing to point out. It was...
the non-linearness of this whole journey,
was a very painful lesson for me to
learn because I too felt
(09:13):
that there was some sort of secret. There was... if I could just
do this one thing or talk to this one person or get this one opportunity,
it would unlock that door. And that
is a tough fallacy to operate
by. And then there were cases where
I booked something and I was able
to quit my full time job to do it. But that gig was
(09:33):
a month. And then you think... but...
then you go with all the confidence and
ambition in the world, you're like, and I'm going to hop
back in. And I'm now I'm on the audition circuit and I'm going to
get something. And the answer is for me, no.
In fact, I quit a full time job.
I had this amazing experience. I felt that I
grew so much. It was such overwhelmingly
(09:56):
positive. I felt like I had all these things in line, I had
made connections, there was potential.
And then I did not book a single
thing for 14 months.
And was auditioning a lot also work, had
to get another day job to support myself.
And so I was working full time, auditioning a lot
(10:16):
and just was not booking, was not
connecting. I think
I... got depressed. I was so
confused and down on myself. And I
really, so much of that was because I felt I had
done something wrong.
Yeah.
And the answer is (10:32):
No, you didn't.
It's always important... At the same time, you have
to be reflective and you have to be willing to
grow and change and practice always. But I
had told myself that I squandered
opportunity and the answer was none of
that. I'm a big proponent... and it still is really hard
some days to understand. But
(10:55):
no one is going to get your job when it
is right for you, when the timing is right, when you have honed,
when you are there. There's a lot of other factors. There's
luck, there's preparation. But the simple thing is
no one is going to get your job. So if it's not for you, it is
not for you. And things take time. That also goes
down to like, there is no linear path. And all
(11:16):
of us, I think the vast majority of creatives can
point to you get something
and then you have nothing and
you have to make ends meet
and keep going. But the. Once you get one
thing, the domino effect, I'm here to debunk
it. That's a fucking myth, y'all.
(11:36):
Please don't, be fooled.
Yeah, no, the myth of the domino effect
or that once you get through one door, everything
else opens up complete nonsense.
But I love, I love that idea of nobody else
is going to get your job. That is one of those things. Because everyone'bringing
something unique to the table at some level, if you're putting the right work
in, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, if you believe in yourself, in what
(11:58):
you're doing and like really feel connected to your work. Yeah.
Like there's a place that you land that makes sense for
you and that doesn't duplicate as easily as
people believe.
And I would also caveat it too, where again,
it is agonizing, right. To really
want the job, to feel so connected, to get the call back, to feel right
(12:18):
there. And then, of course, there are moments
too. It's a very common story, right. Where you felt so
aligned with it. And then let's say it's a commercial and you don't book the
commercial and you're not sure why. And then you watch the
commercial... and you realize... that a variety of factors... And again,
it's... Rather than get down on yourself,
what really helps with no one is going to get your job
is... And with complete respect, because people
(12:41):
have very busy lives and so Much to juggle. The more
you can create things on your own
from a place of... It's just for me
it's pure creativity. This is mine to make.
I don't expect it to make me money. I expect it to give me a
creative outlet. The more that you can just
have hobbies that are not acting or not
(13:02):
creative... Hobbies typically will inform
your performance and your creative spirit. But have
stuff that isn't this so that you can be a well
rounded person and so that the losses
aren't everything. Yeah, because you
know, it's that thing of. Ah, dang it. I
didn't hear back about that audition I really wanted. But
now I'm going to go do a stupid writing
(13:24):
session with my friends. I'm go going toa go play DnD. I'm going to
go read this latest
fantasy book at this new bar I've been wanting to check out
anything for you. I highly encourage you to do it
because otherwise it's so easy to
focus on the concept of what is wrong with you. Which
again, nothing. The answer is nothing. The answer is
simply (13:44):
This is tough.
But that's really good to respond to that moment with fueling...
adding more fuel to your fire of like different ideas, different
concepts, different other creativity, other creative
outlets to keep yourself moving, keep yourself
absorbing.
Yeah, I mean. So my primary
gig now is I'm with the Twenty Sided Tavern, at
(14:04):
Stage 42 off-Broadway... and it's a dream and
it'primarily feeds off of... it
is Dungeons & Dragons and it's
also a passion for storytelling and
the ability to improvise.
None of that is what I was going for in my career.
All of those are hobbies and it's so,
it's incredible to see that sometimes the things that you
(14:26):
love, sometimes that coalesces in a way that
you cannot anticipate.
Indeed. But you did, you, you created
and co-founded a Chicago based improv
thing...
I did! I did. So that happened. I so I
fell into improv in general. in college. I was
on a very different path. I have a degree in
(14:47):
human nutrition that I do not use. (I'm so sorry dad.)
But I did improv for fun
outside of classes because I was really interested in
acting and I also just thought
I wasn't funny. It was very much so. A freshman. Your fuck it moment.
There's something I wanna do. I'm gonna audition. I won't make
it. I roll. And then I did.
How wrong you were.
(15:07):
I was so wrong! But Also
it was a thing of improv in college was my
release and it's how I met my best friends who are
to this day my best friends. So then I'm just hanging out with
my buddies and do an
improv. And then I continued doing improv because
I moved to Chicago and was very interested
(15:27):
in acting. Improv is a great way to be involved
in acting but it also was a really comfortable home
for me as I was trying to stretch my
ability and kind of figure things out.
But I will say too I was told
basically when I said I want to be an actor, I'm working towards
it. I was told by someone who is very
(15:47):
accomplished and as you'd say... "clout" and
they told me don't do
improv, it'll never lead to anything for you. And
the intentionality behind that advice was so
pure. Everything has a bit of its own
perspective and and truth to it from that person. They were being like, you
need to focus on other skill sets if you wanna get here,
(16:07):
But the funny thing is I never,
I never quite listend to them and
or better yet I think for me the switch flips where I went,
okay, improv isn't going to
lead me anywhere... so I'm free.
Right! It's when there is no
expectation of a destination,
(16:29):
you operate on the journey
differently. Granted it took 10 years
but the funny thing was I then did Impro with
joy and laughter and because some of my favorite people
do it and that's how I get to spend time with them.
Over time that snowballed into we were doing improv In
Chicago, my favorite people, the funniest people. we
(16:49):
were doing a show that was very consistent and my favorite thing to do
on Fridays and it was profitable.
So the next solid step is
well, let's make this an LLC so that
we can pay folks and so that we can better
represent ourselves. All of it still was just like
this is so that something we love can be
(17:09):
nurtured a little bit better.
Yeah.
And now [High Stakes Production]
has, is doing extremely
well. I'm so proud to say that it, I
believe it produces some of the best long form
genre specific improv in Chicago.
And we run at Second City and we run at the Annoyance Theater
with great success. It just goes to
(17:32):
show- and it's called High Stakes Production?
Thank you. High Stakes Production. I didn't know if that was just the name of
the company or also the name of the theater.
So it's the name of the company. And we produce it in tandem, with these...
We have partnerships with these various theaters to produce these works.
Gotcha.
And I say all that again of like, It was
never we're gonna form a company so that we...
It was. As you talk about clout, sometimes you have to look up
(17:54):
and... I still forget... I was. Like, oh, yeah,
I'm a co-founder of this company. All of
it was done as a loving passion
project without the pressure to make my
life right.
I don't know if you know the comedian, Randy Feltface. It is like a puppet
comedian that
tours around- Yeah, yeah, I know... I don't
(18:14):
KNOW Randy, but I know his work.
I went to one of the live shows in Boston just after I started
the LLC for a watercolor kit that I'm
moving into manufacturing. But I didn't mean to... like, I was just trying to
get a prototype for my own, like, personal needs made.
And it just sort of steamrolled. But at the
thing he, like, I somehow got picked out of the audience for a thing. He's
like (18:33):
"Well, what did you do today?" And I'm like:
"I accidentally started a business."
I mean, that's it. It's the idea of...
when you set yourself free-
that's exactly as you say. I was like, how did I get here? Oh, I
didn't mean to. Yeah, I didn't mean to. I had
no idea. I was. My ass was
(18:54):
trying to get into Shakespeare plays
for a while, thinking that that was
the path I was supposed to take to show that I was serious and
skilled. And for those that do Shakespeare in classics in general.
Oh, my gosh, you're amazing. I don't say that with judgment.
I just said that was something I felt that I was
supposed to do and did not
(19:14):
do it with success.
but in the meantime, accidentally, I am m a part of
something that now very much so informs my work
in my daily life. And that could change again.
Of course. But it's what... it's just,
It's the funniest things. It's when you let go
and you just operate from a place of instinct and a
(19:36):
place of, "I do this because it fills me up"
as opposed to it takes out.
Yeah.
that is deeply personal for every person. But
I, know that I had to learn
that. And I had to learn it painfully because I was
very resistant to that sort of
vulnerability and that unknowingness
(19:58):
that is this entire thing anyway. And
then I was like, I'm such a little dumb dumb. Because of
course the answer was always
let go and be open to what
avails itself to you to not be at all what you expected.
Yeah, no, there's sor- I do want to put a pin
on, the advice that you had gotten before all this about not doing
(20:19):
improv, but before that, that reminded me
of. There's a comedian who I quote a lot. I think his name is Jake Johansen
but he had a bit a while back where the line was:
"...well, it wasn't Plan A.
A number of things went wrong to get here."
And I've always quoted it that way. And I feel like from this
conversation forward, I'm going to have a revised version of:
"It wasn't pPlan A. A lot of things accidentally went right to get here."
(20:43):
Yeah. I mean it is a constant mix of like
you're... So many times that I felt like
I was like rolling down a hill, like, oh shit, I
what's happening? But you still somehow like
land on pillows. It's the rolling part that's really
scary. But in the end it's like there is
actually... You were trying to go up a mountain, you fell down a
(21:03):
ravine. There's actually something cool down that ravine. Right.
But no, the idea that like... So this is one of those things
where... especially with people who have made it at a
certain level, where they are often asked for advice and they
often have to, like, ground their experiences into
like sound bitess so they can give people in moments, where
they spot them. There's this, I guess,
(21:25):
ah, I forget what it's called. It's not success bias, but it's something to
that concept of once you've succeeded
you have a, certain perspective of how you think things
work because that's how they worked for you.
And I feel like it's really important
when you get advice from someone who has,
in your eyes, "made it", that you don't
(21:45):
confuse their advice for a correct path that you
should follow. Take what you need,
but know who you are.
I think whenever possible, talk to as
many people as you can.
Yes.
And understand that all of their answers
are valid, but
THEIR answers, and therefore...
(22:06):
not THE answer. and I would say too,
at least for me, just surround yourself
by good people.
Like not only, let's say even say in a professional
sense, not just talented people
or hardwork working people, surround yourself by people
whose actual characters, who they are
(22:26):
as a person and how they operate inspire
you. I think with that
then if nothing else... like if you
energetically... it just feels better. But also
I, I think in terms of, like to put it in a frame
of, manifestation. If you are surrounded by
that kind of energy, if you are surrounded by people that you are
actively rooting for, you also
(22:49):
tend to be the person
other people are rooting for. And you tend to have
a lot of inspiration to pull from.
And then you can also have a lot of lessons learned
and things where it's absolutely so cool to be like,
"I would like to speak to someone as a mentor. I have this
very specific career question I want to ask" dope. do that.
(23:09):
But, sometimes also just having these partnerships and
community, there's a lot to be learned by passive
conversation because you tend to be surrounded
by, folks that, for whatever reason, are
good for you at this time.
Well, in terms of like, the psychological application,
there's this fascinating concept. So... I'm sure you've
experienced it. Where like, a friend asks you for advice, and it's
(23:32):
something that you yourself had struggled with, but when you're trying to help
them, the answers seem more obvious. Because... from
the outside, you're less tethered to the outcome. But
then you're also accidentally giving yourself advice in
the process and seeing more options and pathways than
you would if you were just trying to solve your own problems.
Yep. Yeah, I definitely...
It also reminds me...
(23:53):
so, I remember my biggest study technique
when I was, you know, back at, studying in
college is I would say things out loud.
I found that if I could teach, take
my notes and I had them memorized and understood in such a
way, that I could effectively pretend I was the teacher teaching
the concept.
Yes.
Then I knew I was ready for the exam I was preparing for.
(24:15):
And I kind of forgot
that approach, for a long time when
I was just an adult in the working world, where it is that of if you
can, if you can speak about it to somebody
else in an approachable way,
then you might be onto something. But I also hedge it with, like,
it's really hard to take your own advice. It's really hard
(24:36):
to see yourself within it. and I
think too, in a caveat, I'm
sure that I have given bad
advice previously, because
I was really trying again that idea
of
hoping in a desperation to have the
answer. I was
(24:59):
saying things as fact when the answer was simply, this
was my personal experience in this specific moment.
But here were the 50 extenuating circumstances. Right.
So I think too, I hate to...
come to you with this, but I really have been practicing in the past few
years an (25:13):
"I don't know" mindset which is:
"I don't know. Here are details and
context I can provide. Maybe we could pull
some conjectures from it. But... I don't know."
That has helped me immensely better
approach my world. so I guess that's
the only reason why I remiss. I'm very cautious about "oh, I don't know...
(25:35):
but I'm happy to chat about it"
and with the utmost intention of. I hope
it serves you a bit. I also just hope that you don't feel
alone.
Yeah, no, that's also huge. There was-
On your nutritional experience... expertise...
there was a point in my like late teens that I
had absorbed some piece of information about like
(25:57):
oh, you shouldn't eat like two hours before bed. Like it's
not the best time to be adding new food to your system if you're about to fall asleep.
That kind of, like, a very simple concept.
And for months... I went around telling other people:
"Oh, you shouldn't eat past 10:00pm"
because my... Well, I go to bed at midnight and no earlier.
So I had clocked it to my thing but was giving people a...
(26:17):
and it wasn't for like a while until someone was like
"Why would it be a specific time?" And my brain immediately ate itself being like,
oh, I fucked up. I fucked up so hard.
I mean, we all do it. That's the thing though, right? Where
as just said your
personal experience sometimes
is incorporated as fact with
(26:38):
the the whatever.
And that's the beauty of it. But that's
what makes
being creative and trying to navigate all this so
tough. Because everything is takwn
with a grain of salt, every single
thing.
But it is one of those things. If I had approached it with a more I don't know or
(26:58):
if I'd approached it as a. If I could talk on this, if I could explain
the full concept, it'd be better than me just
citing the one takeaway I had.
Like playing with information is always better than
thinking you know a fact, in my opinion.
And also I think I. Okay, not to
get super heavy but I really adopted the
(27:19):
"I Don't Know Mindset (tm)
not even specific to trying to be a
professional actor. I adopted it very
mindfully about two years ago because I was
going through a very difficult set of personal life
changes, loss and
confusion. I found a...
long story short, that I was really
(27:40):
prolonging my pain
and my self doubt
by again pursuing
a solution. because the answer that was there was
no Solution. There was nothing that I was doing wrong
to have fostered these things. It's just life is life and
painful things come up. And
(28:01):
the only thing that really helped me kind of emerge from my
own really dark,
anxious place was to understand that there is
no possible way for me to outthink it.
Instead going, I don't know. But I can
only follow, like, what is joyful and what
is fun. And again, that was me, doing improv with my
(28:22):
friends is joy and helps and makes
me want to get up today
and face a couple of things because I know at the end of
the day this is the reward would be that. So.
So I was trying to. And I was making a lot of decisions out
of pain and fear. And that also prolongs the process.
That's...
HUGELY tough to get out of.
(28:43):
Of course.
And everybody has their own things. I...
again... only for me. And at this time,
learning slowly but surely to just go,
"I don't know... but this is the intention.
This is what I'm going for at the moment."
Is great. And I think my other... and this feels very
counterintuitive because when we have
(29:03):
goals, there is all those things about commitment
and drive and ambition and, habits.
You can ALWAYS change your mind.
You are allowed to change your mind.
Is something that I like. Please know you can change your mind.
It's not just about, like, maybe the career path you're on
or, what a big goal that you have, but it also means you
(29:24):
can change your mind about yourself and particularly about how
you think about yourself and what...
What thoughts you give yourself every
day, because those do stick. Like...
thoughts have power. And when you have this one
version of yourself in your brain, that
too is a way of often
prolonging pain over time.
(29:46):
I honestly've tied that concept to a lot of
the imposter syndrome. I've tried to help some of my friends with where
they seem to have this fixation of who they are versus
who they think they should be. And those definitions,
if you focus too hard on where they're
not overlapped, it can really clog you up.
Yeah. Oh, I know that struggle. I'll say.
(30:06):
I'm still very actively... That I think is my
big... Has been my primary focus is exactly
that. I have an image of who I think I ought
to be and who I am. And
I have to constantly remind myself that the ought to be
doesn't exist. And the ought to be
also, again, for me it's the (30:24):
"How does that serve me now?"
And (30:26):
"Am I doing this from a place of...
ought tobe or a place of am-ness".
and so I'm finding little by little, because I
know I can change my mind about myself, then that
ought to be, like, the lines of that are
fading, if that makes sense. Like, what used to be
oil painting is now kind of like
(30:47):
a, thin pencil sketch. Because I know that that
expectation doesn't... isn't real.
No. I have tried to
take my own revision against that, by constantly thinking of
things in whether or not "Future Griffin" will be happy or sad with my
decisions more so than, like, what I ought to do based on a
perceived outcome. Will I be happy when I deal with
(31:08):
this in a week? Cool. Will I not be?
Then let's think twice and just see if this is worth it.
And again, I think that the people you find
yourself surrounded by when you can't
trust your inner self talk
sometimes looking outward and seeing the people
who surround you... Am I a
person surrounded by a community, of inspirational
(31:31):
and aspirational people? People who make me better?
people who I know love me and will also be true?
Like, if you have that,
you're doing fucking great. Like, you are onto it. And
sometimes that is enough to be like, that's why I make such a
huge point of working with people
that work with great people.
Yeah.
because if nothing else,
(31:52):
you become better by osmosis.
Yeah. No, that's a great way to put that.
So, speaking of working with great people, how has it been
going from, one of the Twenty Sided Tavern players
versus being a DM now?
It's been... oh... it's been a really cool
challenge and super humbling
in an awesome way because I've been
(32:14):
with the Tavern for five years now and have
gotten to play the characters quite a
bit. warrior, spellcaster, trickster.
I've listened to and worked with our DMs and
have been so in awe of what they do,
but really listening to them do it...
interacting with them and then doing it are two very different things.
And complete... It's a different way of
(32:37):
playing and performing and thinking.
And so it is really cool
to come in and be like,
I have a lot of practice to do honestly.
And it's so... I've always been...
enamored with stories and storytelling.
And so to now finally kind of like...
got to step up and learn how to weave a story
(33:00):
on this scale with incredibly...
Again, I work with awesome people. So they're...
they've got my back and they're doing all this incredible work.
And so to just kind of sit there and sometimes help stir
that story soup is awesome, but yeah. And I say it as a good thing.
Oh man, I can't wait to just keep getting better and better.
I'm on the start of a brand new journey
(33:20):
and have m a lot to learn,
but I think that's awesome.
I think that,,,
if any of us have an attitude of:
"I don't have more to learn. I don't have more to grow."
Then, again, you're not helping yourself.
Yeah. Is there any specific of your own flavor
you started trying to pepper in?
(33:43):
or started thinking about trying to pepper in?
Has it just been like following what you've seen done...
as a player seeing what the DMs have done?
or are you trying to like get your own flavors put in yet?
I'm still figuring it out.
But I will say there is, in general,
a lack of representation in the arts.
There is certainly...
(34:04):
I will only speak from my personal experience as a femme in the art.
So I don't want to try to speak for
other communities out of hand.
But I would say there are...
there's just not a lot of femme players in this space.
There are certainly not femme DMs in general.
I've gotten that feedback a lot from personal experience
(34:24):
playing Dungeons & Dragons, also from fellow players.
It's just not a space with as much gender representation.
I am really looking forward to
add my own voice to:
"What does it mean to be an empowered femme voice who gets to
drive things in a space that tends to be primarily male dominated?"
So that really...
it's really cool to just be like (34:44):
"All right, let's go!"
Because there's also, oh my gosh...
There's also...
It's fun to identify
little bits of social conditioning too.
As someone who identifies as she/her,
to coming in and know that in "normal" social circumstances
(35:07):
I tend to benefit from kind of muting my voice
or waiting to make a concise point.
Loudness doesn't
and authority doesn't necessarily
work for me in a day to day interaction
just by virtue of appearing as femme.
But when you're a DM and you get to drive things,
I've found where that conditioning doesn't serve me
(35:29):
and it's fun to unpack that
a little bit more as we go on.
No, that's a very fascinating awareness to have
to navigate internally while on stage.
For sure. And I think too it is cool to stretch
a new muscle because the roles are.
The roles require, at least for me, a very different
(35:50):
way of thinking about how to play and how to contribute to the story.
And it's just cool to have been
involved in something for several years
and to now open a brand new door and be like:
"Oh, shit! What is this?"
It's not familiar. It's not honed for me.
And that's a really good challenge
(36:10):
that ultimately will just make me better
as a performer in general.
Okay, so given that,
have you had any external pushback yet? Like...
any weird responses from like, audiences or followers?
No, I have only been given immense support...
That's fantastic!
...and encouragement and inspiration.
That's the thing-
(36:33):
Are you hoarding it or are you rolling it?
Am I ...?
Hell yeah! DnD!
Oh, no, I'm rolling with it. I can't hoard it.
It just feels too good. I got it. And then it's encouragement to share with others.
What I didn't anticipate is every single show I've done,
I have been approached by
strangers who have said:
(36:54):
"It is so awesome
to see someone like me.
It feels like I'm being
represented in this.
And I've struggled to find,
I want to be a dm." or
"I've struggled to find a DM who feels more
representative of me or the stories that
(37:16):
I want to interact with." and that...
God. That's the coolest thing. It's also a great reminder, too.
If I want to hyper fixate and be like:
"Well, I think I could have done this moment better.
I messed up that line." and that's true... and sure... practice.
Get better. But to also be like:
"It means something." and...
it's just such a positive reinforcement mechanism because
(37:39):
it inspires me to keep going too.
And again, it goes back to, I know that right now I'm exactly
where I need to be because I'm surrounded by
so much good community and energy.
And that's the thing. When I look up and go, oh,
wow, look at this feedback I'm getting. Yeah. Ah,
That is a good indication that...
(37:59):
Okay. Then maybe this is a path to keep exploring for a while.
No, that's fantastic. Do you know what you're up to next?
Like, do you have any other things going on?
Any other things you're working on?
Where's your brain floating?
I'm, currently, so profoundly fulfilled and
challenged by my current work that...
that's awesome. But the answer is also,
(38:20):
I don't know what's coming down the pipe, but
I am ready for it. I am trying my best
to prepare for whatever might coalesce coming up.
Primarily... again,
by like taking on new hobbies.
I'm trying to increase skills.
For me, I'm a super physical person.
I really lovemovement.
(38:40):
Oh... I remember. Watching you like,
flip and roll around on stage is no joke.
So I think, and literally just, just for fun,
for me, I'm trying to learn... trying to learn
this insane breakdancing move
that I genuinely do not have the physical strength for.
So... And again, it's just for me
and so... but weirdly,
(39:02):
I think as I continue to just build little tools
that I don't know when or if they'll ever come in handy,
that's another way of me
just taking time to be like:
"I don't..." again "What's happening in six months?
I don't know. But I know I'm going to have three
new cool tricks that I learned!"
Because, I do think...
(39:24):
I will say the Twenty Sided Tavern has
really exciting potential and conversations going on,
which I think is always cool.
But on top of that, we've gotten to work with
so many phenomenal people that it's just exciting
to expand out and be like:
"I've grown in this way. I've met so many cool people."
I'm really excited about all that. It all feels good.
(39:47):
It, feels like the soup is getting better and better.
That's the best and healthiest way for me to view what the future is,
because, I don't know, and the more that I try to solidify it,
the more I actually stand in my own way.
So I'm so sorry, I just gave you
the longest non-answer.
No, but that mindset... is the valuable thing I'm trying to tap into
in these conversations.
(40:08):
That ability to see that, trying to solidify a future outcome is not helpful,
is huge for a lot of people trying to navigate these spaces.
So let's dial down to the soup base, then.
What are the hobbies you're... reaching out to
to keep yourself occupied right now?
Yeah. So, I... Okay, number one,
I got more into weightlifting
and strength training.
(40:30):
I watched this one lady on YouTube who... she's so cool.
She's Irish bodybuilder and she's all about form.
And my ass before has always just been like:
"I'm sporty. I played soccer for a lot of years
came from a very athletic family."
So I always kind of have been inclined to move, but...
I haven't been inclined to study how movement actually serves you.
(40:51):
And then for the past year or so,
really started to get
into the kinetics of it and what is
efficient and what is helpful to my old ass bones.
And guess what? That really helped me in
then starting to do the Tavern because we do
eight shows a week, and it's really physically demanding.
Oh yeah.
And inadvertently, me learning how to treat
(41:13):
my muscles better has actually really helped me.
It's all those things of. I never anticipated that would feed into it,
but it does.
I'm also an avid baker.
I love sweets. I love eating sweets. I love making them.
So I've just been reading, more recipes.
And I make bread a lot that
I bring to the theater.
(41:35):
So I'm trying out new techniques with that.
That's amazing. I can't bake a lick, but I love cooking.
And I've been slowly, like, finally taking my recipes and
putting them on a secret backpage on my website.
Oh, yeah! Get it!
Share those.
My friend Archer has been helping me. Like, they're vegetarian and
they live in a kosher household. So, like,
they've been helping me clarify my recipes of what could be edited to make it
functional for those communities. And just trying to make sure that anything
(41:58):
I've made has a version that anyone can have has
been really interesting to try to, like, augment.
I think that's so cool. I love that too.
I also, have gotten into homemade pasta making more-
Oh, that's very brave. I have no confidence in that.
But I would love to experiment someday.
Oh, no. I'm here to say, get that shitty attitude out of here.
Pasta is easy. It is flour and egg and salt,
(42:20):
and then you roll it out.
So I think you got this.
It feels like baking,
and I'm scared of baking. I'm not good at following exact ratios. I like to-
no... no... no.
-improv with my cooking.
I feel like we'd be very good then... then, like, okay...
I'll make the noodles and you make the sauce.
(42:41):
That's where I actually am not that confident.
I love cooking for large groups of people. My favorite thing, actually,
in New York, my favorite thing in staying with Julia is, by the end of the weekend,
I'm always like, invite whoever you want over. I'm going to cook for everybody
until you all surrender.
I... Samesies.
I am a Sunday dinner person.
Yes.
We now do, typically two shows on Sundays.
(43:01):
So it's awesome. So my Sundays are typically.
I get to be at the theater, which is such a cool thing to get to say.
But if a free Sunday, I am all about,
like, making a roast.
Making something that cooks all day. Love.
I love group meals like that.
Fantastic.
Look at that we bonded on something completely off topic.
We did. I guess the third. I love plants.
(43:24):
So, I'm surrounded constantly by my plants.
And, I am currently training
my monstera to get another new leaf. And yes...
I talk to them and yes, they have names.
so that's kind of... my other thing is
learning how to keep these boys alive and happy with
When I have a very overactive radiator and,
very good light
(43:47):
in my room,
I have no green thumb. I'm envious of my sister for it.
When I pet sit for her, she'll just be like (43:50):
"okay, send me photos of the plants."
Because she knows I can't read what the plants are doing.
So she'll just look at the photo and be like (43:56):
"okay, take this one,
give it a 20 minute bath and then put it back where it belongs.
Take this one. You're gonna spray it,"
like very distinct instructions. It's insanely... It impresses me to no end
and I cannot wrap my head around it.
Yeah. You know, I actually also, killed everything.
Killed every plant.
Despite having three wonderful parents,
(44:18):
My parents and my stepmom all are avid gardeners, so I grew up around that influence-
Oh, that's amazing.
- and built everything. And then again,
I was very lucky a couple years ago. a good friend who just...
She is a plant witch.
She is a savant of plants.
Got me started on basic understanding.
And now it... I am absolutely like
(44:38):
a plant aunt for sure.
Fantastic.
I love my little plant babies. So, but I get you
where I'm like, I am by no means an expert. And
I certainly wouldn't have the confidence to do exactly what your
sister does. But I do know I can vouch
I have learned a lot and I'm excited to.
I feel like eventually, if I can be eccentric, and wealthy
(45:00):
and just living in my greenhouse with a caftan,
I feel like if somebody gave me a million
dollars within two weeks, that's who I'd be.
Right. Well,
I don't want to eat up any more of your time.
You've been very generous sitting here and chatting with me about all of this,
but do you have any little nuggets of wisdom?
(45:20):
Any takeaways that you haven't already pinned on or
anything... You want to repin hard?
Oh, my gosh. again, just. Thank you so much
for letting me come here and chat with you.
I. I guess I just.
I really want to give credence and respect to.
The journey can be super hard.
(45:41):
And there is so much there'so many times
where you are made to feel less than
and you have to be your own best champion
and know that some days you're going to be better at it
than others because you are a human being with a complex
life giving yourself grace and patience.
I think the ultimate thing you can do is
(46:01):
whenever possible, do stuff you love just because you love it.
Like, fuel yourself by that energy.
It will manifest into positive opportunities,
whether professionally or just personally,
in ways you can never anticipate.
The unknowingness is part of the process and the more
you can sit with it, the less pain you'll be in.
(46:22):
And yeah, whenever in doubt, reach out.
Reach out to people you love and just talk to them.
Yes. I would say... and other than that,
just like mad respect to everybody who is on their own journey.
You work really hard. You persevere.
Grit is one of the ultimate qualities I think any person can have.
I'm so in awe of it.
Just know that you are not behind.
(46:44):
You are not the one person who doesn't know the secret.
And to those of you who work 40 hours a week
and then come home and still carve time to be a little creative,
to make something,
to do anything. Yeah, you are incredible.
That is being a superstar.
I love that.
I usually try to encourage people to view themselves as
(47:06):
the protagonist of own stories,
but that is so much better.
I think I'm just. I'm in awe of people who do that. So props.
My eternal, constant props and my constant cheerleading to you.
I say, fuck yeah!
You're amazing!
Absolutely fucking love it. People trying to track you down...
I think Instagram is
(47:26):
@Mad.Mad.Murphy
Yep, that's me.
And for high stakes production its:
www.highstakesproduction.org
Yes, please and on Instagram
@highstakeschicago
I would also say, please do come see the Twenty Sided Tavern.
@TwentySidedTavern on Instagram
We have a cool ass website and-
(47:48):
I cannot recommend the show enough. It is such a good show.
Oh, thank you. Well, hey, and I truly mean it,
if you come to the show and want to say hi, please do.
That would be awesome. We're all here telling a story together
and it's your story to help tell with us.
Fantastic. Thank you again. Have a lovely rest of your week.
Thank you so much. You too, Griffin.
(48:17):
That was a very interesting conversation.
Maddie is absolutely delightful.
I've always really admired her.
I think she seems like a lovely person to know.
We bonded at the end about like cooking stuff.
Apparently they do a lot of like baking and make their own pasta.
There was a polite soft offer to like co-cook at some point, which would be very neat.
I don't know how much they meant it.
(48:38):
Yeah, I don't know if it's a real offer but
apparently we both share
a love for feeding lots of people at once.
Can I volunteer to be one of the people?
Oh you're top of the guest list.
But no. She went into a lot of interesting stuff about
having an (48:55):
"I don't know mindset" at the moment.
Of taking opportunities as explorable in any case.
And I don't think I know many people doing that right now.
Like most people I know are very goal oriented
or like have some idea of what success looks like
that they're chasing and not so much
just keeping the peripherals open
for whatever shows up that might be interesting.
(49:17):
I think it's a really valuable mindset to have.
I also know a lot more people who
are going after one specific goal
and one concrete idea of what they
think success will be.
And
it feels
important to be able to
(49:37):
at least switch between them.
I think it's a helpful
ability and flexibility
for a creative to sometimes
have a solid goal in mind
and a concrete idea of what they want
their success to be.
(49:59):
But if and when that becomes
or is realized to be unachievable,
the ability to fall back on
looking at opportunities
that are around you and
consistent awareness of them.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think I fall
(50:21):
into this weird other pocket
of the same concept because I've never,
I've never been married to the outcomes as heavily
as a lot of other people have worked with. I always have projects.
I always know where I want the individual projects to end up.
But the number of times I get sidetracked by somebody else,
I'm very prone to getting excited about
(50:41):
other people's excitement and chasing that car with them
and then trying to figure out where my car ended up.
I think in a roundabout and backwards way
that's how you ended up here.
Very much so.
You got excited about an idea and you're
dragging all of us along with you.
Willingly, I should say.
(51:02):
But I appreciate that.
That is the phrase I keep using is...
I think dragging everyone kicking and screaming towards my nonsense
comes up a lot in discussions about this and many other projects.
And yet you don't see any of us
putting up a fight.
Nope,
nobody's actually kicking and screaming.
I'm just imagining it.
(51:24):
Imagining it makes it sound like you want that to be happening.
Like, it'd be more fun for you if we hated this.
No
That is not what I was going for.
But as per usual,
my inability to properly vet my words on their way out
does not help me communicate any better.
I did recently find out that...
(51:45):
I forgot which... one of the Green brothers has the same combination I do.
Where he doesn't have an inner monologue or an ability to imagine images.
He did a whole video about trying to figure out
how to explain that to people,
which I found very helpful in at least normalizing it
a bit for myself.
Cool.
But anyway, no, it's tricky.
Like, I also, like, professionally, I've never... I don't job hunt a lot.
(52:07):
I've been job hunting a lot right now, and I've...
Usually I get... If I get a conversation, I get that job.
But most of the jobs I've ever had, like,
somebody else I was talking to just realized I had a skill that
they could use and brought me in.
But, like, I tend to just jump on other people's trucks and
go for rides, and I should probably
(52:28):
be more cautious about it.
Whereas I like Maddie, being a little bit more
intentional about the openness to
what's not intended.
Yeah. It's a fun
thing to do and to practice
is intentionally expanding an
artistic network.
(52:50):
I've watched you
unintentionally expand it
so many times, and I have
certainly benefited from
your expansive network.
but I haven't put
intention into expanding mind in the same
way until relatively recently.
(53:11):
Partly lack of opportunity, partly lack of
consciousness that it was something I wanted to do.
But I think I mentioned a while ago that I'm
doing costumes for a short film that my friend is working on.
Yeah, yeah.
so I was chatting with him,
and we realized
that it would be a lot
easier for the people who are shooting
(53:34):
and a lot more effective as a
storytelling device if instead of having
some of the flashbacks be
shot live on a different set. Ah.
If they were animated instead
in kind of like a shadow puppet style.
Oh, I love that.
I know a few different animators.
(53:54):
so I was able to reach out
to one of them and say,
"hey, is this your style of animation?"
And they said (54:03):
"yes, absolutely".
...whipped something up in 10 minutes
that I lost my mind over.
And they also said that they'd be
happy to do the animation part of it,
but they would need to work with an illustrator.
But I don't know any who would be doing this kind of work. So I asked them:
(54:24):
"Do you have an illustrator that you work well with?
That you want to bring in."
So now the network has extended from my friend who's
writing the script to me doing the costumes, to my friend who's
animating, to their friend who's doing the illustrations for the
animations.
And it feels very good and satisfying
to be building this kind of artistic network on my own.
(54:46):
Yeah, that's huge.
That's basically the same way I've always done.
It is.... Actually...
at one point in the discussion, Maddie said something
interesting that I really liked. it was something to the effect of:
"If you're surrounded by people that you are actively rooting for,
you also tend to be the person that other people are rooting for."
And it's the same concept in, professional application.
(55:07):
Like you... a lot of people who you know
have skill and you want to see do more with it.
And by doing that, you've now expanded the network.
And someday that's going to bounce back and
someone will think of you in a similar context when they
know that somebody needs someone with your skill set.
Or at least that's how I found it to work.
I am very hopeful about that.
(55:29):
I mean, it's, not universal. I know plenty of people who will just take
opportunities that they're offered from people who are thinking of them,
but then they're also just thinking of them.
So they don't really know how to reach out in other directions or reciprocate.
It's that merc mentality that I cannot stand.
But, like, they tend to weed themselves
out pretty quickly most of the time.
I tend to trust my intuition about people.
(55:51):
Yeah, no, Your intuition is great.
One of the big things she's been excited about
is since switching to dm, as one of her roles,
being a femme presenting person
in that's often not seen as a femme role.
She's been very thrilled with the opportunity,
the practice, the change of experience,
and the feedback and response she's gotten.
(56:12):
Yeah.
As an audience member who loves
Twenty Sided Tavern
it's been really cool
to see how the show has evolved.
Bits of representation just fall so naturally
into place there.
In the context of International Women's Day,
(56:34):
the Twenty Sided Tavern posted a video
with a bunch of their femme presenting cast
members talking about what it meant.
And everybody made very good points.
But what Maddie said really stuck
with me because they talked a
lot about how much it meant
to audiences to see them
(56:56):
in that role and how,
like,
parents come up and talk
about understanding why their kids enjoy stuff now
and understanding why their daughters
love playing DnD in the context
of seeing Maddie do that on stage.
That's fantastic.
(57:17):
It was.
I think I watched that video
like three times in a row because
I was just sitting there listening to all of them.
Everybody who spoke in that video
spoke so well about
how much it means to be
(57:38):
a femme presenting person,
a visibly queer person,
in those kinds of roles, and how
it's so meaningful not just
for femme presenting or
visibly queer or audience
members of color, but
it turns into a sort of feedback loop
(58:01):
where because it's so meaningful for the audience,
it becomes so meaningful for the performer
and because it means a lot to the
performer to be representing everybody in this
way that is felt by the audience
and it's felt to be very meaningful as well.
No, that's a fantastic, inspiring loop.
(58:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like if
I go down that path and
become visible in the way that Maddie is,
it's something I hope I take with me.
I can't imagine you losing that
which I don't know if you saw
on the, server. I opened it up and if any
(58:43):
anyone else felt like DMing for one of the games
instead of just having me do it.
I did see that.
I did think about it.
Julia keeps telling me that she... keeps considering me a "Forever DM" (tm)
and I'm like (58:54):
"I don't feel that way caus I play in other people's games."
But I can see how you guys think that
'cause I'm always the DM for our group.
I saw it. I'm thinking about it.
I have so many vague mind map ideas for what I would do.
When in the world do you think I would
find time to DM A campaign for us?
Griffin...
Our last campaign was at 9am on Sundays!
(59:16):
I knew it wasn't going to be abrupt
but I wanted that stew
to start brewing in the back of people's heads in case that was something
they were there was an interest in. So I'm glad it's doing at least that
because that was the goal. Well, in any case, I'll see you
when I finagle us into a Twenty Sided Tavern before they
vanish for their tour. So, I mean, all this is kind
depending on the ongoing job hunt to see if I have a big adult job
(59:38):
that can fund most of this nonsense.
But I'll keep you posted.
That sounds like an excellent plan.
(01:00:04):
No, my brain... colander
salad spinner.
I've never heard salad spinner being applied to this,
but I like it better than colander.
Well, I usually say my brain is a sieve, but I had already said
that, so I wanted to use a different word.
Always so thoughtfully verbose as opposed to me, who
is just chatty... or loquacious if you want to get fancy about it.
(01:00:26):
When do I not?
Head to www.ShadedArea.com to learn more about the show.
or if you'd like to support the show, head to www.patreon.com/createartrepeat
and depending on what level you support the show at,
you could score yourself some fancy merch
Thanks for listening,
and until next time,
stay thoughtful, stay playful,
(01:00:48):
and keep creating.
one thing about wearing a corset, you cannot have bad
posture because it hurts.
Oh, corset question. A friend of
mine got a corset top.
Ah.
Once everything's pulled as tightly as the
cords will allow, it's still a little loose. Is there
any trick to make it more snug despite
that fact?
(00:21):
Short of just straight up altering it?
No.
That's what I thought. I just promised them -
I would'happy to. alter it for them.
It's something I'm capable of doing.
I will put on the table an offer of having
you alter, and see if that is a
priority for her.
(00:41):
A different thing that I also need to practice for,
which is an audition for a bunch of rep
companies. It's an opportunity for actors to
get in front of a bunch of people at the
same time.
It's like a big pitch event.
Yeah. I'm in the process of
figuring out if I'm gonna do that.
(01:01):
So if I go and I show up when
the building opens at 8, and I get an early
audition slot, then I could feasibly be back
in the city for my noon class.
Yeah.
If I go and
the 10am to 1pm
lunch break space is already completely
(01:21):
filled.
Yeah.
I've already trekked all the way out here. Do I wait in the holding room for
hours to sing the 16 bars
and do a tiny monologue and miss all of my
classes for the day?
I thankfully have never had to deal with that level of triage.
There's not a lot of cattle calling for, illustration work.
Do they still call it that?
I've not heard that term used, but that doesn't mean it's not
(01:44):
okay.
Gotcha. No, my friend who does independent
films now, but was primarily an actress for a long
time, she constantly called them cattle calls. So that's what got stuck
in my head.
One of the main reasons I'm looking at the
rep opportunities is
that's a slightly
a less high octane
(02:04):
method of getting into Equity.
It is an Equity audition. What I would be going
to is the second day where they are
accepting non-union auditions.
but if you audition and get into a
production where most of the actors are Equity, then
you can make a decent case for applying to join the union. And
(02:26):
once you're in the union, then
auditions get a lot easier.
Gotcha.
I don't know how much familiarity you have
with audition season.
Is this theater specific?
Yes.
okay. I'm only- Actors Equity is-
This is loosely familiar, but not accurately
familiar to me.
(02:46):
If you're Non-union. And you want to
go to like, you want to audition for these Equity
shows. What you do is you show up and
you put your name on a list and you
wait. And if at the end of the day,
after the producers and casting directors have seen all of
the people in Equity who got their reserve time
slots, if they agree to see non union
(03:08):
people, then you go in in order
of the list that you put your name on at 4 in the
morning.
Oh, God.
And then you sing and dance for the people.
Have you ever experienced an old
school style Black Friday?
I've never experienced a modern Black Friday.
I stay far away from it.
(03:31):
I've heard. People would literally, after
Thanksgiving dinner and stuff, they'd go home, take a nap and
then at like 1:00am, everyone would start lining
up outside of stores in the cold and just
wait until 7:00am, 8:00am when places opened up
and they just stampede in. And this sounds like
that as a constant norm. And I hate everything you
(03:51):
just explained.
Yeah.
So, yeah, no, you're going to be a little excited about this one.
Today I'm talking to Maddie from Twenty Sided Tavern.
Okay. That's so cool!
I was very surprised. I had sent a cold
DM to, her and a couple other people who I don't
actually know in person at all. And she bit hard
(04:11):
and I'm very much looking forward to what kind of weird
nonsense I can learn from her about what she's been up to.
That's so exciting. I am such a big fan
of her. I've been to the show
seven times and-
no, she's fantastic. It doesn't matter
what role she's in. She pulls focus.
Right. She just always has like little standout moments.
(04:33):
Yeah, yeah. Her storylines are the ones that stick
with me.
I really, before they vanish to do
their touring, I definitely need to see her in the
DM role live.
Oh yeah.
It's a moral imperative.
Absolutely.
Yeah. She should be here in a minute. So I'm go going toa get a refill and I will check
in with you, about 45.
(04:54):
Okay. Ill be over in the corner just geeking
out.
Maddie! Good to see you.
Oh, hey, Griffin! So good to see you too.
(05:15):
I'm so glad you decided to sit down with me on this. I'm very much
looking forward to talking to you and getting your perspective on this weird stuff I'm
trying to unpack.
thank you for inviting me and wanting to hear my
goofy internal little thoughts about it. I'm really
excited to unpack this with you.
To dive in as hard as possible...
Let's do it. Dive in hard.
(05:35):
So I'm familiar with you from, your Twenty Sided Tavern
stuff out of New York. I attended one of the shows sort of on
a whim when I was visiting my friend Julia.
Did the like, last minute rush thing. Me and all the DnD
players that I run games for. So it was
absolutely perfect. And I am so glad
you responded because I didn't have a really easy hook.
(05:55):
So far I think everyone else I've talked to, like,
knows me personally. You're the first person who I was
able to get who doesn't really know me personally.
So I appreciate this hugely.
Yeah, you sent me a DM that was just like
really lovely and exciting. I also just love to
talk, so I want to give mad props to...
Hey, a cold DM, A cold email I
(06:17):
have so much respect for because you
throw it out there. And it was so well written. I
was very eager to respond. So good on you
for having good cold DM.
I'm really glad to hear that because that's always a really tense thing to
try to navigate.
Yeah, I've been there too. And you take it so personally.
Right.
Even in all likelihood, that person just didn't see
(06:38):
it or they don't have bandwidth or whatever. It is not personal,
but it's so deeply vulnerable to send
something out there. So I get it.
No, I've been really lucky that everyone's been excited about this so
far, but it is one of those things that, like, so I was talking
to my friend Lindsay and we were talking about that
concept of people on different tiers of
clout within industry, especially theater industry.
(07:01):
and how for you, as somebody
who has no real sense of your reputation yet,
it's strange to try to reach up. But for
even people with reputation and clout, like, you're still just
theater people who love creativity and like,
it's not as weird to them as it is to the person trying to reach
up.
Oh my gosh. I don't. I
(07:22):
have so many quick thoughts about this. you said the word
clout, and I truly am.
I'm a goblin. Like, I play a goblin.
It's so funny for you to say clout,
because to me, you and I are peers
and I just don't feel- it's interesting.
... perhaps this is quite a bit of catching up to myself.
(07:43):
... quite a bit of imposter syndrome.
But, I certainly don't consider myself somebody, with
clout or any of That. I just find myself
to be extremely stoked to be here. But at the same
time... I want to give credence to what you're saying.
I think for all of us this is a massive journey
of creativity and sometimes
(08:05):
just taking stock and appreciating every moment.
And I guess, yes, right now I am a
professional full time actor and it's
incredible and it's humbling and I'm so fucking stoked
every day. But it also is, this is very
recent for me, and also non-linear.
And so I also want to appreciate that because so it's wonderful for you to
be like (08:27):
"Hey, look at you!" And...
I'm like (08:29):
"Look at me!? What!?!"
Perspective is such a funny thing.
Let's talk about the
non-linear aspect because that has been a
running theme. And it's one of the things I most want to highlight because I
do think there's this toxic projection of:
"Here's how creativity is supposed to work as a profession, and you
succeed by these very few narrow paths." And I've never found it
(08:50):
to be true. And I found people who chased those very narrow paths
to end up, very frustrated and very much
like in this pool of people who are following the same advice with no
actual exits.
Yeah, I think that's a great thing to point out. It was...
the non-linearness of this whole journey,
was a very painful lesson for me to
learn because I too felt
(09:13):
that there was some sort of secret. There was... if I could just
do this one thing or talk to this one person or get this one opportunity,
it would unlock that door. And that
is a tough fallacy to operate
by. And then there were cases where
I booked something and I was able
to quit my full time job to do it. But that gig was
(09:33):
a month. And then you think... but...
then you go with all the confidence and
ambition in the world, you're like, and I'm going to hop
back in. And I'm now I'm on the audition circuit and I'm going to
get something. And the answer is for me, no.
In fact, I quit a full time job.
I had this amazing experience. I felt that I
grew so much. It was such overwhelmingly
(09:56):
positive. I felt like I had all these things in line, I had
made connections, there was potential.
And then I did not book a single
thing for 14 months.
And was auditioning a lot also work, had
to get another day job to support myself.
And so I was working full time, auditioning a lot
(10:16):
and just was not booking, was not
connecting. I think
I... got depressed. I was so
confused and down on myself. And I
really, so much of that was because I felt I had
done something wrong.
Yeah.
And the answer is (10:32):
No, you didn't.
It's always important... At the same time, you have
to be reflective and you have to be willing to
grow and change and practice always. But I
had told myself that I squandered
opportunity and the answer was none of
that. I'm a big proponent... and it still is really hard
some days to understand. But
(10:55):
no one is going to get your job when it
is right for you, when the timing is right, when you have honed,
when you are there. There's a lot of other factors. There's
luck, there's preparation. But the simple thing is
no one is going to get your job. So if it's not for you, it is
not for you. And things take time. That also goes
down to like, there is no linear path. And all
(11:16):
of us, I think the vast majority of creatives can
point to you get something
and then you have nothing and
you have to make ends meet
and keep going. But the. Once you get one
thing, the domino effect, I'm here to debunk
it. That's a fucking myth, y'all.
(11:36):
Please don't, be fooled.
Yeah, no, the myth of the domino effect
or that once you get through one door, everything
else opens up complete nonsense.
But I love, I love that idea of nobody else
is going to get your job. That is one of those things. Because everyone'bringing
something unique to the table at some level, if you're putting the right work
in, if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, if you believe in yourself, in what
(11:58):
you're doing and like really feel connected to your work. Yeah.
Like there's a place that you land that makes sense for
you and that doesn't duplicate as easily as
people believe.
And I would also caveat it too, where again,
it is agonizing, right. To really
want the job, to feel so connected, to get the call back, to feel right
(12:18):
there. And then, of course, there are moments
too. It's a very common story, right. Where you felt so
aligned with it. And then let's say it's a commercial and you don't book the
commercial and you're not sure why. And then you watch the
commercial... and you realize... that a variety of factors... And again,
it's... Rather than get down on yourself,
what really helps with no one is going to get your job
is... And with complete respect, because people
(12:41):
have very busy lives and so Much to juggle. The more
you can create things on your own
from a place of... It's just for me
it's pure creativity. This is mine to make.
I don't expect it to make me money. I expect it to give me a
creative outlet. The more that you can just
have hobbies that are not acting or not
(13:02):
creative... Hobbies typically will inform
your performance and your creative spirit. But have
stuff that isn't this so that you can be a well
rounded person and so that the losses
aren't everything. Yeah, because you
know, it's that thing of. Ah, dang it. I
didn't hear back about that audition I really wanted. But
now I'm going to go do a stupid writing
(13:24):
session with my friends. I'm go going toa go play DnD. I'm going to
go read this latest
fantasy book at this new bar I've been wanting to check out
anything for you. I highly encourage you to do it
because otherwise it's so easy to
focus on the concept of what is wrong with you. Which
again, nothing. The answer is nothing. The answer is
simply (13:44):
This is tough.
But that's really good to respond to that moment with fueling...
adding more fuel to your fire of like different ideas, different
concepts, different other creativity, other creative
outlets to keep yourself moving, keep yourself
absorbing.
Yeah, I mean. So my primary
gig now is I'm with the Twenty Sided Tavern, at
(14:04):
Stage 42 off-Broadway... and it's a dream and
it'primarily feeds off of... it
is Dungeons & Dragons and it's
also a passion for storytelling and
the ability to improvise.
None of that is what I was going for in my career.
All of those are hobbies and it's so,
it's incredible to see that sometimes the things that you
(14:26):
love, sometimes that coalesces in a way that
you cannot anticipate.
Indeed. But you did, you, you created
and co-founded a Chicago based improv
thing...
I did! I did. So that happened. I so I
fell into improv in general. in college. I was
on a very different path. I have a degree in
(14:47):
human nutrition that I do not use. (I'm so sorry dad.)
But I did improv for fun
outside of classes because I was really interested in
acting and I also just thought
I wasn't funny. It was very much so. A freshman. Your fuck it moment.
There's something I wanna do. I'm gonna audition. I won't make
it. I roll. And then I did.
How wrong you were.
(15:07):
I was so wrong! But Also
it was a thing of improv in college was my
release and it's how I met my best friends who are
to this day my best friends. So then I'm just hanging out with
my buddies and do an
improv. And then I continued doing improv because
I moved to Chicago and was very interested
(15:27):
in acting. Improv is a great way to be involved
in acting but it also was a really comfortable home
for me as I was trying to stretch my
ability and kind of figure things out.
But I will say too I was told
basically when I said I want to be an actor, I'm working towards
it. I was told by someone who is very
(15:47):
accomplished and as you'd say... "clout" and
they told me don't do
improv, it'll never lead to anything for you. And
the intentionality behind that advice was so
pure. Everything has a bit of its own
perspective and and truth to it from that person. They were being like, you
need to focus on other skill sets if you wanna get here,
(16:07):
But the funny thing is I never,
I never quite listend to them and
or better yet I think for me the switch flips where I went,
okay, improv isn't going to
lead me anywhere... so I'm free.
Right! It's when there is no
expectation of a destination,
(16:29):
you operate on the journey
differently. Granted it took 10 years
but the funny thing was I then did Impro with
joy and laughter and because some of my favorite people
do it and that's how I get to spend time with them.
Over time that snowballed into we were doing improv In
Chicago, my favorite people, the funniest people. we
(16:49):
were doing a show that was very consistent and my favorite thing to do
on Fridays and it was profitable.
So the next solid step is
well, let's make this an LLC so that
we can pay folks and so that we can better
represent ourselves. All of it still was just like
this is so that something we love can be
(17:09):
nurtured a little bit better.
Yeah.
And now [High Stakes Production]
has, is doing extremely
well. I'm so proud to say that it, I
believe it produces some of the best long form
genre specific improv in Chicago.
And we run at Second City and we run at the Annoyance Theater
with great success. It just goes to
(17:32):
show- and it's called High Stakes Production?
Thank you. High Stakes Production. I didn't know if that was just the name of
the company or also the name of the theater.
So it's the name of the company. And we produce it in tandem, with these...
We have partnerships with these various theaters to produce these works.
Gotcha.
And I say all that again of like, It was
never we're gonna form a company so that we...
It was. As you talk about clout, sometimes you have to look up
(17:54):
and... I still forget... I was. Like, oh, yeah,
I'm a co-founder of this company. All of
it was done as a loving passion
project without the pressure to make my
life right.
I don't know if you know the comedian, Randy Feltface. It is like a puppet
comedian that
tours around- Yeah, yeah, I know... I don't
(18:14):
KNOW Randy, but I know his work.
I went to one of the live shows in Boston just after I started
the LLC for a watercolor kit that I'm
moving into manufacturing. But I didn't mean to... like, I was just trying to
get a prototype for my own, like, personal needs made.
And it just sort of steamrolled. But at the
thing he, like, I somehow got picked out of the audience for a thing. He's
like (18:33):
"Well, what did you do today?" And I'm like:
"I accidentally started a business."
I mean, that's it. It's the idea of...
when you set yourself free-
that's exactly as you say. I was like, how did I get here? Oh, I
didn't mean to. Yeah, I didn't mean to. I had
no idea. I was. My ass was
(18:54):
trying to get into Shakespeare plays
for a while, thinking that that was
the path I was supposed to take to show that I was serious and
skilled. And for those that do Shakespeare in classics in general.
Oh, my gosh, you're amazing. I don't say that with judgment.
I just said that was something I felt that I was
supposed to do and did not
(19:14):
do it with success.
but in the meantime, accidentally, I am m a part of
something that now very much so informs my work
in my daily life. And that could change again.
Of course. But it's what... it's just,
It's the funniest things. It's when you let go
and you just operate from a place of instinct and a
(19:36):
place of, "I do this because it fills me up"
as opposed to it takes out.
Yeah.
that is deeply personal for every person. But
I, know that I had to learn
that. And I had to learn it painfully because I was
very resistant to that sort of
vulnerability and that unknowingness
(19:58):
that is this entire thing anyway. And
then I was like, I'm such a little dumb dumb. Because of
course the answer was always
let go and be open to what
avails itself to you to not be at all what you expected.
Yeah, no, there's sor- I do want to put a pin
on, the advice that you had gotten before all this about not doing
(20:19):
improv, but before that, that reminded me
of. There's a comedian who I quote a lot. I think his name is Jake Johansen
but he had a bit a while back where the line was:
"...well, it wasn't Plan A.
A number of things went wrong to get here."
And I've always quoted it that way. And I feel like from this
conversation forward, I'm going to have a revised version of:
"It wasn't pPlan A. A lot of things accidentally went right to get here."
(20:43):
Yeah. I mean it is a constant mix of like
you're... So many times that I felt like
I was like rolling down a hill, like, oh shit, I
what's happening? But you still somehow like
land on pillows. It's the rolling part that's really
scary. But in the end it's like there is
actually... You were trying to go up a mountain, you fell down a
(21:03):
ravine. There's actually something cool down that ravine. Right.
But no, the idea that like... So this is one of those things
where... especially with people who have made it at a
certain level, where they are often asked for advice and they
often have to, like, ground their experiences into
like sound bitess so they can give people in moments, where
they spot them. There's this, I guess,
(21:25):
ah, I forget what it's called. It's not success bias, but it's something to
that concept of once you've succeeded
you have a, certain perspective of how you think things
work because that's how they worked for you.
And I feel like it's really important
when you get advice from someone who has,
in your eyes, "made it", that you don't
(21:45):
confuse their advice for a correct path that you
should follow. Take what you need,
but know who you are.
I think whenever possible, talk to as
many people as you can.
Yes.
And understand that all of their answers
are valid, but
THEIR answers, and therefore...
(22:06):
not THE answer. and I would say too,
at least for me, just surround yourself
by good people.
Like not only, let's say even say in a professional
sense, not just talented people
or hardwork working people, surround yourself by people
whose actual characters, who they are
(22:26):
as a person and how they operate inspire
you. I think with that
then if nothing else... like if you
energetically... it just feels better. But also
I, I think in terms of, like to put it in a frame
of, manifestation. If you are surrounded by
that kind of energy, if you are surrounded by people that you are
actively rooting for, you also
(22:49):
tend to be the person
other people are rooting for. And you tend to have
a lot of inspiration to pull from.
And then you can also have a lot of lessons learned
and things where it's absolutely so cool to be like,
"I would like to speak to someone as a mentor. I have this
very specific career question I want to ask" dope. do that.
(23:09):
But, sometimes also just having these partnerships and
community, there's a lot to be learned by passive
conversation because you tend to be surrounded
by, folks that, for whatever reason, are
good for you at this time.
Well, in terms of like, the psychological application,
there's this fascinating concept. So... I'm sure you've
experienced it. Where like, a friend asks you for advice, and it's
(23:32):
something that you yourself had struggled with, but when you're trying to help
them, the answers seem more obvious. Because... from
the outside, you're less tethered to the outcome. But
then you're also accidentally giving yourself advice in
the process and seeing more options and pathways than
you would if you were just trying to solve your own problems.
Yep. Yeah, I definitely...
It also reminds me...
(23:53):
so, I remember my biggest study technique
when I was, you know, back at, studying in
college is I would say things out loud.
I found that if I could teach, take
my notes and I had them memorized and understood in such a
way, that I could effectively pretend I was the teacher teaching
the concept.
Yes.
Then I knew I was ready for the exam I was preparing for.
(24:15):
And I kind of forgot
that approach, for a long time when
I was just an adult in the working world, where it is that of if you
can, if you can speak about it to somebody
else in an approachable way,
then you might be onto something. But I also hedge it with, like,
it's really hard to take your own advice. It's really hard
(24:36):
to see yourself within it. and I
think too, in a caveat, I'm
sure that I have given bad
advice previously, because
I was really trying again that idea
of
hoping in a desperation to have the
answer. I was
(24:59):
saying things as fact when the answer was simply, this
was my personal experience in this specific moment.
But here were the 50 extenuating circumstances. Right.
So I think too, I hate to...
come to you with this, but I really have been practicing in the past few
years an (25:13):
"I don't know" mindset which is:
"I don't know. Here are details and
context I can provide. Maybe we could pull
some conjectures from it. But... I don't know."
That has helped me immensely better
approach my world. so I guess that's
the only reason why I remiss. I'm very cautious about "oh, I don't know...
(25:35):
but I'm happy to chat about it"
and with the utmost intention of. I hope
it serves you a bit. I also just hope that you don't feel
alone.
Yeah, no, that's also huge. There was-
On your nutritional experience... expertise...
there was a point in my like late teens that I
had absorbed some piece of information about like
(25:57):
oh, you shouldn't eat like two hours before bed. Like it's
not the best time to be adding new food to your system if you're about to fall asleep.
That kind of, like, a very simple concept.
And for months... I went around telling other people:
"Oh, you shouldn't eat past 10:00pm"
because my... Well, I go to bed at midnight and no earlier.
So I had clocked it to my thing but was giving people a...
(26:17):
and it wasn't for like a while until someone was like
"Why would it be a specific time?" And my brain immediately ate itself being like,
oh, I fucked up. I fucked up so hard.
I mean, we all do it. That's the thing though, right? Where
as just said your
personal experience sometimes
is incorporated as fact with
(26:38):
the the whatever.
And that's the beauty of it. But that's
what makes
being creative and trying to navigate all this so
tough. Because everything is takwn
with a grain of salt, every single
thing.
But it is one of those things. If I had approached it with a more I don't know or
(26:58):
if I'd approached it as a. If I could talk on this, if I could explain
the full concept, it'd be better than me just
citing the one takeaway I had.
Like playing with information is always better than
thinking you know a fact, in my opinion.
And also I think I. Okay, not to
get super heavy but I really adopted the
(27:19):
"I Don't Know Mindset (tm)
not even specific to trying to be a
professional actor. I adopted it very
mindfully about two years ago because I was
going through a very difficult set of personal life
changes, loss and
confusion. I found a...
long story short, that I was really
(27:40):
prolonging my pain
and my self doubt
by again pursuing
a solution. because the answer that was there was
no Solution. There was nothing that I was doing wrong
to have fostered these things. It's just life is life and
painful things come up. And
(28:01):
the only thing that really helped me kind of emerge from my
own really dark,
anxious place was to understand that there is
no possible way for me to outthink it.
Instead going, I don't know. But I can
only follow, like, what is joyful and what
is fun. And again, that was me, doing improv with my
(28:22):
friends is joy and helps and makes
me want to get up today
and face a couple of things because I know at the end of
the day this is the reward would be that. So.
So I was trying to. And I was making a lot of decisions out
of pain and fear. And that also prolongs the process.
That's...
HUGELY tough to get out of.
(28:43):
Of course.
And everybody has their own things. I...
again... only for me. And at this time,
learning slowly but surely to just go,
"I don't know... but this is the intention.
This is what I'm going for at the moment."
Is great. And I think my other... and this feels very
counterintuitive because when we have
(29:03):
goals, there is all those things about commitment
and drive and ambition and, habits.
You can ALWAYS change your mind.
You are allowed to change your mind.
Is something that I like. Please know you can change your mind.
It's not just about, like, maybe the career path you're on
or, what a big goal that you have, but it also means you
(29:24):
can change your mind about yourself and particularly about how
you think about yourself and what...
What thoughts you give yourself every
day, because those do stick. Like...
thoughts have power. And when you have this one
version of yourself in your brain, that
too is a way of often
prolonging pain over time.
(29:46):
I honestly've tied that concept to a lot of
the imposter syndrome. I've tried to help some of my friends with where
they seem to have this fixation of who they are versus
who they think they should be. And those definitions,
if you focus too hard on where they're
not overlapped, it can really clog you up.
Yeah. Oh, I know that struggle. I'll say.
(30:06):
I'm still very actively... That I think is my
big... Has been my primary focus is exactly
that. I have an image of who I think I ought
to be and who I am. And
I have to constantly remind myself that the ought to be
doesn't exist. And the ought to be
also, again, for me it's the (30:24):
"How does that serve me now?"
And (30:26):
"Am I doing this from a place of...
ought tobe or a place of am-ness".
and so I'm finding little by little, because I
know I can change my mind about myself, then that
ought to be, like, the lines of that are
fading, if that makes sense. Like, what used to be
oil painting is now kind of like
(30:47):
a, thin pencil sketch. Because I know that that
expectation doesn't... isn't real.
No. I have tried to
take my own revision against that, by constantly thinking of
things in whether or not "Future Griffin" will be happy or sad with my
decisions more so than, like, what I ought to do based on a
perceived outcome. Will I be happy when I deal with
(31:08):
this in a week? Cool. Will I not be?
Then let's think twice and just see if this is worth it.
And again, I think that the people you find
yourself surrounded by when you can't
trust your inner self talk
sometimes looking outward and seeing the people
who surround you... Am I a
person surrounded by a community, of inspirational
(31:31):
and aspirational people? People who make me better?
people who I know love me and will also be true?
Like, if you have that,
you're doing fucking great. Like, you are onto it. And
sometimes that is enough to be like, that's why I make such a
huge point of working with people
that work with great people.
Yeah.
because if nothing else,
(31:52):
you become better by osmosis.
Yeah. No, that's a great way to put that.
So, speaking of working with great people, how has it been
going from, one of the Twenty Sided Tavern players
versus being a DM now?
It's been... oh... it's been a really cool
challenge and super humbling
in an awesome way because I've been
(32:14):
with the Tavern for five years now and have
gotten to play the characters quite a
bit. warrior, spellcaster, trickster.
I've listened to and worked with our DMs and
have been so in awe of what they do,
but really listening to them do it...
interacting with them and then doing it are two very different things.
And complete... It's a different way of
(32:37):
playing and performing and thinking.
And so it is really cool
to come in and be like,
I have a lot of practice to do honestly.
And it's so... I've always been...
enamored with stories and storytelling.
And so to now finally kind of like...
got to step up and learn how to weave a story
(33:00):
on this scale with incredibly...
Again, I work with awesome people. So they're...
they've got my back and they're doing all this incredible work.
And so to just kind of sit there and sometimes help stir
that story soup is awesome, but yeah. And I say it as a good thing.
Oh man, I can't wait to just keep getting better and better.
I'm on the start of a brand new journey
(33:20):
and have m a lot to learn,
but I think that's awesome.
I think that,,,
if any of us have an attitude of:
"I don't have more to learn. I don't have more to grow."
Then, again, you're not helping yourself.
Yeah. Is there any specific of your own flavor
you started trying to pepper in?
(33:43):
or started thinking about trying to pepper in?
Has it just been like following what you've seen done...
as a player seeing what the DMs have done?
or are you trying to like get your own flavors put in yet?
I'm still figuring it out.
But I will say there is, in general,
a lack of representation in the arts.
There is certainly...
(34:04):
I will only speak from my personal experience as a femme in the art.
So I don't want to try to speak for
other communities out of hand.
But I would say there are...
there's just not a lot of femme players in this space.
There are certainly not femme DMs in general.
I've gotten that feedback a lot from personal experience
(34:24):
playing Dungeons & Dragons, also from fellow players.
It's just not a space with as much gender representation.
I am really looking forward to
add my own voice to:
"What does it mean to be an empowered femme voice who gets to
drive things in a space that tends to be primarily male dominated?"
So that really...
it's really cool to just be like (34:44):
"All right, let's go!"
Because there's also, oh my gosh...
There's also...
It's fun to identify
little bits of social conditioning too.
As someone who identifies as she/her,
to coming in and know that in "normal" social circumstances
(35:07):
I tend to benefit from kind of muting my voice
or waiting to make a concise point.
Loudness doesn't
and authority doesn't necessarily
work for me in a day to day interaction
just by virtue of appearing as femme.
But when you're a DM and you get to drive things,
I've found where that conditioning doesn't serve me
(35:29):
and it's fun to unpack that
a little bit more as we go on.
No, that's a very fascinating awareness to have
to navigate internally while on stage.
For sure. And I think too it is cool to stretch
a new muscle because the roles are.
The roles require, at least for me, a very different
(35:50):
way of thinking about how to play and how to contribute to the story.
And it's just cool to have been
involved in something for several years
and to now open a brand new door and be like:
"Oh, shit! What is this?"
It's not familiar. It's not honed for me.
And that's a really good challenge
(36:10):
that ultimately will just make me better
as a performer in general.
Okay, so given that,
have you had any external pushback yet? Like...
any weird responses from like, audiences or followers?
No, I have only been given immense support...
That's fantastic!
...and encouragement and inspiration.
That's the thing-
(36:33):
Are you hoarding it or are you rolling it?
Am I ...?
Hell yeah! DnD!
Oh, no, I'm rolling with it. I can't hoard it.
It just feels too good. I got it. And then it's encouragement to share with others.
What I didn't anticipate is every single show I've done,
I have been approached by
strangers who have said:
(36:54):
"It is so awesome
to see someone like me.
It feels like I'm being
represented in this.
And I've struggled to find,
I want to be a dm." or
"I've struggled to find a DM who feels more
representative of me or the stories that
(37:16):
I want to interact with." and that...
God. That's the coolest thing. It's also a great reminder, too.
If I want to hyper fixate and be like:
"Well, I think I could have done this moment better.
I messed up that line." and that's true... and sure... practice.
Get better. But to also be like:
"It means something." and...
it's just such a positive reinforcement mechanism because
(37:39):
it inspires me to keep going too.
And again, it goes back to, I know that right now I'm exactly
where I need to be because I'm surrounded by
so much good community and energy.
And that's the thing. When I look up and go, oh,
wow, look at this feedback I'm getting. Yeah. Ah,
That is a good indication that...
(37:59):
Okay. Then maybe this is a path to keep exploring for a while.
No, that's fantastic. Do you know what you're up to next?
Like, do you have any other things going on?
Any other things you're working on?
Where's your brain floating?
I'm, currently, so profoundly fulfilled and
challenged by my current work that...
that's awesome. But the answer is also,
(38:20):
I don't know what's coming down the pipe, but
I am ready for it. I am trying my best
to prepare for whatever might coalesce coming up.
Primarily... again,
by like taking on new hobbies.
I'm trying to increase skills.
For me, I'm a super physical person.
I really lovemovement.
(38:40):
Oh... I remember. Watching you like,
flip and roll around on stage is no joke.
So I think, and literally just, just for fun,
for me, I'm trying to learn... trying to learn
this insane breakdancing move
that I genuinely do not have the physical strength for.
So... And again, it's just for me
and so... but weirdly,
(39:02):
I think as I continue to just build little tools
that I don't know when or if they'll ever come in handy,
that's another way of me
just taking time to be like:
"I don't..." again "What's happening in six months?
I don't know. But I know I'm going to have three
new cool tricks that I learned!"
Because, I do think...
(39:24):
I will say the Twenty Sided Tavern has
really exciting potential and conversations going on,
which I think is always cool.
But on top of that, we've gotten to work with
so many phenomenal people that it's just exciting
to expand out and be like:
"I've grown in this way. I've met so many cool people."
I'm really excited about all that. It all feels good.
(39:47):
It, feels like the soup is getting better and better.
That's the best and healthiest way for me to view what the future is,
because, I don't know, and the more that I try to solidify it,
the more I actually stand in my own way.
So I'm so sorry, I just gave you
the longest non-answer.
No, but that mindset... is the valuable thing I'm trying to tap into
in these conversations.
(40:08):
That ability to see that, trying to solidify a future outcome is not helpful,
is huge for a lot of people trying to navigate these spaces.
So let's dial down to the soup base, then.
What are the hobbies you're... reaching out to
to keep yourself occupied right now?
Yeah. So, I... Okay, number one,
I got more into weightlifting
and strength training.
(40:30):
I watched this one lady on YouTube who... she's so cool.
She's Irish bodybuilder and she's all about form.
And my ass before has always just been like:
"I'm sporty. I played soccer for a lot of years
came from a very athletic family."
So I always kind of have been inclined to move, but...
I haven't been inclined to study how movement actually serves you.
(40:51):
And then for the past year or so,
really started to get
into the kinetics of it and what is
efficient and what is helpful to my old ass bones.
And guess what? That really helped me in
then starting to do the Tavern because we do
eight shows a week, and it's really physically demanding.
Oh yeah.
And inadvertently, me learning how to treat
(41:13):
my muscles better has actually really helped me.
It's all those things of. I never anticipated that would feed into it,
but it does.
I'm also an avid baker.
I love sweets. I love eating sweets. I love making them.
So I've just been reading, more recipes.
And I make bread a lot that
I bring to the theater.
(41:35):
So I'm trying out new techniques with that.
That's amazing. I can't bake a lick, but I love cooking.
And I've been slowly, like, finally taking my recipes and
putting them on a secret backpage on my website.
Oh, yeah! Get it!
Share those.
My friend Archer has been helping me. Like, they're vegetarian and
they live in a kosher household. So, like,
they've been helping me clarify my recipes of what could be edited to make it
functional for those communities. And just trying to make sure that anything
(41:58):
I've made has a version that anyone can have has
been really interesting to try to, like, augment.
I think that's so cool. I love that too.
I also, have gotten into homemade pasta making more-
Oh, that's very brave. I have no confidence in that.
But I would love to experiment someday.
Oh, no. I'm here to say, get that shitty attitude out of here.
Pasta is easy. It is flour and egg and salt,
(42:20):
and then you roll it out.
So I think you got this.
It feels like baking,
and I'm scared of baking. I'm not good at following exact ratios. I like to-
no... no... no.
-improv with my cooking.
I feel like we'd be very good then... then, like, okay...
I'll make the noodles and you make the sauce.
(42:41):
That's where I actually am not that confident.
I love cooking for large groups of people. My favorite thing, actually,
in New York, my favorite thing in staying with Julia is, by the end of the weekend,
I'm always like, invite whoever you want over. I'm going to cook for everybody
until you all surrender.
I... Samesies.
I am a Sunday dinner person.
Yes.
We now do, typically two shows on Sundays.
(43:01):
So it's awesome. So my Sundays are typically.
I get to be at the theater, which is such a cool thing to get to say.
But if a free Sunday, I am all about,
like, making a roast.
Making something that cooks all day. Love.
I love group meals like that.
Fantastic.
Look at that we bonded on something completely off topic.
We did. I guess the third. I love plants.
(43:24):
So, I'm surrounded constantly by my plants.
And, I am currently training
my monstera to get another new leaf. And yes...
I talk to them and yes, they have names.
so that's kind of... my other thing is
learning how to keep these boys alive and happy with
When I have a very overactive radiator and,
very good light
(43:47):
in my room,
I have no green thumb. I'm envious of my sister for it.
When I pet sit for her, she'll just be like (43:50):
"okay, send me photos of the plants."
Because she knows I can't read what the plants are doing.
So she'll just look at the photo and be like (43:56):
"okay, take this one,
give it a 20 minute bath and then put it back where it belongs.
Take this one. You're gonna spray it,"
like very distinct instructions. It's insanely... It impresses me to no end
and I cannot wrap my head around it.
Yeah. You know, I actually also, killed everything.
Killed every plant.
Despite having three wonderful parents,
(44:18):
My parents and my stepmom all are avid gardeners, so I grew up around that influence-
Oh, that's amazing.
- and built everything. And then again,
I was very lucky a couple years ago. a good friend who just...
She is a plant witch.
She is a savant of plants.
Got me started on basic understanding.
And now it... I am absolutely like
(44:38):
a plant aunt for sure.
Fantastic.
I love my little plant babies. So, but I get you
where I'm like, I am by no means an expert. And
I certainly wouldn't have the confidence to do exactly what your
sister does. But I do know I can vouch
I have learned a lot and I'm excited to.
I feel like eventually, if I can be eccentric, and wealthy
(45:00):
and just living in my greenhouse with a caftan,
I feel like if somebody gave me a million
dollars within two weeks, that's who I'd be.
Right. Well,
I don't want to eat up any more of your time.
You've been very generous sitting here and chatting with me about all of this,
but do you have any little nuggets of wisdom?
(45:20):
Any takeaways that you haven't already pinned on or
anything... You want to repin hard?
Oh, my gosh. again, just. Thank you so much
for letting me come here and chat with you.
I. I guess I just.
I really want to give credence and respect to.
The journey can be super hard.
(45:41):
And there is so much there'so many times
where you are made to feel less than
and you have to be your own best champion
and know that some days you're going to be better at it
than others because you are a human being with a complex
life giving yourself grace and patience.
I think the ultimate thing you can do is
(46:01):
whenever possible, do stuff you love just because you love it.
Like, fuel yourself by that energy.
It will manifest into positive opportunities,
whether professionally or just personally,
in ways you can never anticipate.
The unknowingness is part of the process and the more
you can sit with it, the less pain you'll be in.
(46:22):
And yeah, whenever in doubt, reach out.
Reach out to people you love and just talk to them.
Yes. I would say... and other than that,
just like mad respect to everybody who is on their own journey.
You work really hard. You persevere.
Grit is one of the ultimate qualities I think any person can have.
I'm so in awe of it.
Just know that you are not behind.
(46:44):
You are not the one person who doesn't know the secret.
And to those of you who work 40 hours a week
and then come home and still carve time to be a little creative,
to make something,
to do anything. Yeah, you are incredible.
That is being a superstar.
I love that.
I usually try to encourage people to view themselves as
(47:06):
the protagonist of own stories,
but that is so much better.
I think I'm just. I'm in awe of people who do that. So props.
My eternal, constant props and my constant cheerleading to you.
I say, fuck yeah!
You're amazing!
Absolutely fucking love it. People trying to track you down...
I think Instagram is
(47:26):
@Mad.Mad.Murphy
Yep, that's me.
And for high stakes production its:
www.highstakesproduction.org
Yes, please and on Instagram
@highstakeschicago
I would also say, please do come see the Twenty Sided Tavern.
@TwentySidedTavern on Instagram
We have a cool ass website and-
(47:48):
I cannot recommend the show enough. It is such a good show.
Oh, thank you. Well, hey, and I truly mean it,
if you come to the show and want to say hi, please do.
That would be awesome. We're all here telling a story together
and it's your story to help tell with us.
Fantastic. Thank you again. Have a lovely rest of your week.
Thank you so much. You too, Griffin.
(48:17):
That was a very interesting conversation.
Maddie is absolutely delightful.
I've always really admired her.
I think she seems like a lovely person to know.
We bonded at the end about like cooking stuff.
Apparently they do a lot of like baking and make their own pasta.
There was a polite soft offer to like co-cook at some point, which would be very neat.
I don't know how much they meant it.
(48:38):
Yeah, I don't know if it's a real offer but
apparently we both share
a love for feeding lots of people at once.
Can I volunteer to be one of the people?
Oh you're top of the guest list.
But no. She went into a lot of interesting stuff about
having an (48:55):
"I don't know mindset" at the moment.
Of taking opportunities as explorable in any case.
And I don't think I know many people doing that right now.
Like most people I know are very goal oriented
or like have some idea of what success looks like
that they're chasing and not so much
just keeping the peripherals open
for whatever shows up that might be interesting.
(49:17):
I think it's a really valuable mindset to have.
I also know a lot more people who
are going after one specific goal
and one concrete idea of what they
think success will be.
And
it feels
important to be able to
(49:37):
at least switch between them.
I think it's a helpful
ability and flexibility
for a creative to sometimes
have a solid goal in mind
and a concrete idea of what they want
their success to be.
(49:59):
But if and when that becomes
or is realized to be unachievable,
the ability to fall back on
looking at opportunities
that are around you and
consistent awareness of them.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think I fall
(50:21):
into this weird other pocket
of the same concept because I've never,
I've never been married to the outcomes as heavily
as a lot of other people have worked with. I always have projects.
I always know where I want the individual projects to end up.
But the number of times I get sidetracked by somebody else,
I'm very prone to getting excited about
(50:41):
other people's excitement and chasing that car with them
and then trying to figure out where my car ended up.
I think in a roundabout and backwards way
that's how you ended up here.
Very much so.
You got excited about an idea and you're
dragging all of us along with you.
Willingly, I should say.
(51:02):
But I appreciate that.
That is the phrase I keep using is...
I think dragging everyone kicking and screaming towards my nonsense
comes up a lot in discussions about this and many other projects.
And yet you don't see any of us
putting up a fight.
Nope,
nobody's actually kicking and screaming.
I'm just imagining it.
(51:24):
Imagining it makes it sound like you want that to be happening.
Like, it'd be more fun for you if we hated this.
No
That is not what I was going for.
But as per usual,
my inability to properly vet my words on their way out
does not help me communicate any better.
I did recently find out that...
(51:45):
I forgot which... one of the Green brothers has the same combination I do.
Where he doesn't have an inner monologue or an ability to imagine images.
He did a whole video about trying to figure out
how to explain that to people,
which I found very helpful in at least normalizing it
a bit for myself.
Cool.
But anyway, no, it's tricky.
Like, I also, like, professionally, I've never... I don't job hunt a lot.
(52:07):
I've been job hunting a lot right now, and I've...
Usually I get... If I get a conversation, I get that job.
But most of the jobs I've ever had, like,
somebody else I was talking to just realized I had a skill that
they could use and brought me in.
But, like, I tend to just jump on other people's trucks and
go for rides, and I should probably
(52:28):
be more cautious about it.
Whereas I like Maddie, being a little bit more
intentional about the openness to
what's not intended.
Yeah. It's a fun
thing to do and to practice
is intentionally expanding an
artistic network.
(52:50):
I've watched you
unintentionally expand it
so many times, and I have
certainly benefited from
your expansive network.
but I haven't put
intention into expanding mind in the same
way until relatively recently.
(53:11):
Partly lack of opportunity, partly lack of
consciousness that it was something I wanted to do.
But I think I mentioned a while ago that I'm
doing costumes for a short film that my friend is working on.
Yeah, yeah.
so I was chatting with him,
and we realized
that it would be a lot
easier for the people who are shooting
(53:34):
and a lot more effective as a
storytelling device if instead of having
some of the flashbacks be
shot live on a different set. Ah.
If they were animated instead
in kind of like a shadow puppet style.
Oh, I love that.
I know a few different animators.
(53:54):
so I was able to reach out
to one of them and say,
"hey, is this your style of animation?"
And they said (54:03):
"yes, absolutely".
...whipped something up in 10 minutes
that I lost my mind over.
And they also said that they'd be
happy to do the animation part of it,
but they would need to work with an illustrator.
But I don't know any who would be doing this kind of work. So I asked them:
(54:24):
"Do you have an illustrator that you work well with?
That you want to bring in."
So now the network has extended from my friend who's
writing the script to me doing the costumes, to my friend who's
animating, to their friend who's doing the illustrations for the
animations.
And it feels very good and satisfying
to be building this kind of artistic network on my own.
(54:46):
Yeah, that's huge.
That's basically the same way I've always done.
It is.... Actually...
at one point in the discussion, Maddie said something
interesting that I really liked. it was something to the effect of:
"If you're surrounded by people that you are actively rooting for,
you also tend to be the person that other people are rooting for."
And it's the same concept in, professional application.
(55:07):
Like you... a lot of people who you know
have skill and you want to see do more with it.
And by doing that, you've now expanded the network.
And someday that's going to bounce back and
someone will think of you in a similar context when they
know that somebody needs someone with your skill set.
Or at least that's how I found it to work.
I am very hopeful about that.
(55:29):
I mean, it's, not universal. I know plenty of people who will just take
opportunities that they're offered from people who are thinking of them,
but then they're also just thinking of them.
So they don't really know how to reach out in other directions or reciprocate.
It's that merc mentality that I cannot stand.
But, like, they tend to weed themselves
out pretty quickly most of the time.
I tend to trust my intuition about people.
(55:51):
Yeah, no, Your intuition is great.
One of the big things she's been excited about
is since switching to dm, as one of her roles,
being a femme presenting person
in that's often not seen as a femme role.
She's been very thrilled with the opportunity,
the practice, the change of experience,
and the feedback and response she's gotten.
(56:12):
Yeah.
As an audience member who loves
Twenty Sided Tavern
it's been really cool
to see how the show has evolved.
Bits of representation just fall so naturally
into place there.
In the context of International Women's Day,
(56:34):
the Twenty Sided Tavern posted a video
with a bunch of their femme presenting cast
members talking about what it meant.
And everybody made very good points.
But what Maddie said really stuck
with me because they talked a
lot about how much it meant
to audiences to see them
(56:56):
in that role and how,
like,
parents come up and talk
about understanding why their kids enjoy stuff now
and understanding why their daughters
love playing DnD in the context
of seeing Maddie do that on stage.
That's fantastic.
(57:17):
It was.
I think I watched that video
like three times in a row because
I was just sitting there listening to all of them.
Everybody who spoke in that video
spoke so well about
how much it means to be
(57:38):
a femme presenting person,
a visibly queer person,
in those kinds of roles, and how
it's so meaningful not just
for femme presenting or
visibly queer or audience
members of color, but
it turns into a sort of feedback loop
(58:01):
where because it's so meaningful for the audience,
it becomes so meaningful for the performer
and because it means a lot to the
performer to be representing everybody in this
way that is felt by the audience
and it's felt to be very meaningful as well.
No, that's a fantastic, inspiring loop.
(58:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like if
I go down that path and
become visible in the way that Maddie is,
it's something I hope I take with me.
I can't imagine you losing that
which I don't know if you saw
on the, server. I opened it up and if any
(58:43):
anyone else felt like DMing for one of the games
instead of just having me do it.
I did see that.
I did think about it.
Julia keeps telling me that she... keeps considering me a "Forever DM" (tm)
and I'm like (58:54):
"I don't feel that way caus I play in other people's games."
But I can see how you guys think that
'cause I'm always the DM for our group.
I saw it. I'm thinking about it.
I have so many vague mind map ideas for what I would do.
When in the world do you think I would
find time to DM A campaign for us?
Griffin...
Our last campaign was at 9am on Sundays!
(59:16):
I knew it wasn't going to be abrupt
but I wanted that stew
to start brewing in the back of people's heads in case that was something
they were there was an interest in. So I'm glad it's doing at least that
because that was the goal. Well, in any case, I'll see you
when I finagle us into a Twenty Sided Tavern before they
vanish for their tour. So, I mean, all this is kind
depending on the ongoing job hunt to see if I have a big adult job
(59:38):
that can fund most of this nonsense.
But I'll keep you posted.
That sounds like an excellent plan.
(01:00:04):
No, my brain... colander
salad spinner.
I've never heard salad spinner being applied to this,
but I like it better than colander.
Well, I usually say my brain is a sieve, but I had already said
that, so I wanted to use a different word.
Always so thoughtfully verbose as opposed to me, who
is just chatty... or loquacious if you want to get fancy about it.
(01:00:26):
When do I not?
Head to www.ShadedArea.com to learn more about the show.
or if you'd like to support the show, head to www.patreon.com/createartrepeat
and depending on what level you support the show at,
you could score yourself some fancy merch
Thanks for listening,
and until next time,
stay thoughtful, stay playful,
(01:00:48):
and keep creating.
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