Ep06 - Wearing A Thousand Hats

 

This episode I'm unpacking professional commission art by examining the ven diagram between my experience and the experience of Tattoo Artist Cat Labelle. We delve into the various roles we have to navigate, struggles and processes, and how weird it is to negotiate with yourself.

Cat entered the scene in Acushnet, Massachusetts (don’t worry, no one else has heard of it either) and has been drawing since before she was born. In 2014, she graduated cum laude from Lesley University College of Art and Design (previously the Art Institute of Boston) with a BFA in illustration, a lot of student debt, anxiety, and a dream. She got her professional tattoo license in 2017 and has been putting art on people ever since. Currently she works at F.I.N.A.O. Ink Tattoo in Providence, RI. She highly suggests that you email or text her to book an appointment.

Where to find Cat online.
https://www.catlabelletattoo.com/
https://www.instagram.com/kittierine/

Support Create - Art - Repeat https://www.patreon.com/createartrepeat

Credits:
Music: Douglas Appleman - http://www.Douglas-Appleman.com/
Copyeditor/Proofreader: Reed Floarea - https://www.floareaindexing.com/
Co-Host: Archer Ezra Rosenbloom - https://www.instagram.com/cos_and.effect
Co-Host: Griffin Ess - https://www.shadedareas.com/

Original date of episode publication: May 23rd, 2025

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
I was gonna try and, like, cut them all together, but it
was fully one in the morning, and I was doing it on my phone
in bed, so I was not gonna try and,
like, splice all of those little clips into
one video. I posted them in order.
You could watch them all or you couldn't. That's your call.
Still a valiant effort.
Appreciate it. I also made

(00:24):
the entire post on my
cosplay Instagram account last night right after the
show, and drafted it so that I could post
it this morning when I woke up, and people would actually see
it. Because if I posted it when
I finished writing it at 2am
yeah, it wasn't gonna get seen.
Dies on the vine. Oh, wait, vine doesn't exist anymore.

(00:46):
Buh Dum Ting. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'll be here
all week, folks.
All right, so today I'm talking to my friend Cat, who
I have known... I met her through Rocky Horror back in the
day when, she was attending college,

(01:07):
and she does tattoo art out of Providence, RI
now at F.I.N.A.O. it's an initialism of some kind. I'm
sure I can get her to remind me. We're gonna hopefully
unpack some stuff about being a, like,
mechanically professional creative, where, like, you're just
trying to execute tasks, keep a schedule,
make clients happy. Is there anything

(01:28):
you could think of to throw at her for questions that
I might not.
Oh, that's very good. I mean, in general,
you're good at thinking of questions that I
would ask. I would love to
hear what her perspective
is on workshopping a
design with a client.

(01:48):
Cause that's something that I love and, like,
really value when I'm approaching a new
tattoo. And I would love to hear the tattoo artist's
perspective on that process.
Gotcha. I'll make sure we hit that. Gonna go
grab my refill. I will talk to you in about 40
minutes.
Sounds good. I will hime over to the corner.

(02:19):
Hey, Cat. How's it going?
Good. How are you? It's been a minute.
Been a long minute. Although I've gotten a lot of good comments on my
ink, people are thrilled, especially with, the
beehive as the connector. That honeycomb
pattern came out great.
I loved it. You just let me do
Whatever I want sometimes.
I still love telling the story of the first one.
Oh, my God, the stress.

(02:41):
I only added a bunch of shit you didn to t asks for. It's fine.
So professional tattooing, how's that going?
Pretty good. I Mean, you know, I just immediately lied to you.
It's slowly been like. And granted, it's not just
me, thankfully, you know, commiserate with all my cowork workers. But,
like, we've all been feeling this recession that's been going
on. We work in the luxury business, you know, so it's

(03:03):
like nobody has luxury money. Nobody even has freaking grocery money.
So we've all been feeling it a little bit.
You know, I understand, like, I need to charge
enough to make a living, obviously.
Yeah.
You know, it's one of those things where people. People do just see it
as, like, a little bit more of, like, a frivolous purchase. Like, you know, like,
getting your nails done or, like, going on a shopping spree or, like, getting,

(03:24):
like, a fancy purse or something. And I'm like, no, this is like,
This is a permanent body modification. You'gotta be lowered
into your grave with this on you. But, you know, that being
said, it's not a few dollars. I understand that.
So trying to find the balance. But it is, you know, at
the end of the day, a luxury. The only thing I have going for me is that at
least you get to keep it forever. So, you know, it kind of cuts

(03:44):
through the ennui of life that we're going through
right now. So at least I have that going.
It gives you those, like, personal connections where people comment on it
or, like, you get to show it off. if it's in a secretive place
as, like, a reveal. There's a lot more social mechanics with a
tattoo than a lot of other types of art. It's like, it's such a
nerdy DnD thing, but they have Thieves Cant where it's like that hidden language
that you only know it if you know it.

(04:05):
Yeah.
So either you have to have it explained to you or you get it
immediately. And it immediately, like, tells you if you're
in the in crowd with this other person or not.
I always joke and say, like, summertime is
like, "damn, mama you tatted" season. Like, all
your tattoos around and it's just you. You will
be spoken to by strangers. You cannot avoid it.

(04:27):
How are you countering it? Coping with it?
Either of those.
I went from in
2023, I went from being booked about
10 to 12 weeks out at a time.
Oh, I do.
I have appointments open next week.
Ooh, that's cutting it close.

(04:47):
It's cutting it close. makes me nervous.
I mean, everyone likes to know that their bills are paid. Little things.
Yes. It's consistent enough that
like I can make it,
but it's skin of my teeth now.
Yeah, no, I'm guessing the seasonal...
Cause I know it's like I just had the commission burst from the
holiday season.

(05:07):
Right. I have the opposite. I get
no clients during the holiday
season.
That makes sense. So I get the commission burst
and then after the holidays, now is when I have my dry
period. I would guess it's the opposite with you where like once people
have secured like gift money, they
might pop out.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'll get like a few more... tax seasons

(05:29):
usually where it really starts popping off. And I'll go
pretty steadily until summer and then
everyone would much rather want to be at the
beach.
Yep.
So like taking a day off a beach time is like a hard ask
apparently. But it's also the two weeks out
of the beach.
I was gonna say, because protecting from the UV and they

(05:49):
can't go to the beach.
Yeah yeah. That's a huge ask. So
winter time is usually pretty good. Very
rarely do I have to turn
clients away and very rarely do I
accept a deposit, book appointments and then
cancel those appointments, and tell that client to go somewhere
else. I can count on one hand. I
want to make you feel like I have all the time in the world for

(06:12):
you. Yeah. I don't though.
Like when clients are like, you know, they want to see their drawing ahead of time. They booked
an appointment three months out and they're bugging every two weeks.
I had this happen with a client. I think he booked his appointment like four months out
or something like that. And he kept bugging me, you know, where's my drawing? Where's my drawing?
Why haven't you done it yet? I did the math for him. I was like. Because
between the day you booked your appointment and the day of

(06:35):
your appointment, I had 120
appointments. I had
120 other drawings to get to
before yours that were going.
to go on skin before I even saw you. Yeah.
And I had to treat every single person the same way I'm treating you where
there's a lot of back and forth and showing sketches and having to
revise them. It's like a lot goes on in the background.

(06:56):
The drawings don't come out of.
my butt.
Because like, at a minimum, every
single piece that I tattoo
gets drawn three times. There's me
sketching it, there's me outlining it to make a stencil, and then
there's me outlining it on your body... three times
minimum. And that takes a lot of time, and

(07:16):
people don't understand that. So sometimes, like, if I've shown
you four iterations of a drawing
and you're like, it's still not right, and you can't
give me reference photos of a closer style that you're looking
for, or you can't articulate exactly what it is. That's not gonna work.
right. You just want me to keep twiddling it with it forever.
Sometimes, very rarely, I'll have to be like,
hey, I think I'm gonna go ahead and cancel our appointment.

(07:38):
You know, I don't think I'm the right artist
for you. I'm clearly not getting your
vision. And unfortunately, like, I just.
I don't have any more time that
I can allot to this.
Either we reschedule it and, like, push it further out and
gives me more time to, like, nail your drawing down. Or

(07:58):
I'm just not the artist for you. And most people just take the I'm,
not the artist for you. And then, you know, a week or
so will pass. I'll give them a recommendation to somebody else, and then they'll come
back for the deposit. And that's a whole different thing. That's
the business side of it that has to, you know, inevitably come
into the creative side.
Yeah, I love that you have that awareness where you can
put the foot down and be like, we're not

(08:20):
moving in the same direction. We should just not
move in the same direction. But,
like, how do you know? Like, is
there a number of interactions? Is it a countdown for you,
or is it more of a vibe check?
S More of a vibe check. Like, sometimes, you know, I have
to redrawn. Redrawn. Like, I'll do, like, the major
drawing and, like, very rarely will to be like, absolutely not.

(08:43):
Most of the time, it's just like, yeah, but can we do it a little bit more like this?
I can then, like, the background flowers look a little bit more like this. You
know, it's minor tweaks, and, like, I'll do, you know, eight or
nine tweaks of that. But, like, I know I'm close,
you know, and then there's somet times where it's like,
no, not at all. Completely redraw it,
like, five times. Completely from scratch redraw it. And I

(09:03):
just don't have... I have time for minor tweaks. I don't
have time for, like, majority I'm doing,
you know, your drawing a week before.
Oh.
So it's like there is, like, you know, I
send you a drawing, and, you
know, I am the drawer of the tattoos, the doer of
the tattoos, the consultation guy,
scheduling guy. I am the

(09:26):
assist. I'm my own assistant. You know, it's like, I
will send somebody a sketch, I will do a full day's worth of
tattoos, and then I will come home, twiddle
with your sketch some more, do my drawings for the next, you know, a
few days, send that off, not get response
from you until, like, end of the next day. And
so it's like, it's not the most efficient way

(09:46):
of working, unfortunately, when you're doing this back and forth,
like, you know, the Internet. But
because, like, It's either like, I send it to you and wait for your response, or
I make you schedule a time to come in. You know, it's like there's nothing
for it. It is what it is. And it's like, you know, the
more time that that takes in, the more
changes I need to make, the closer and closer we get to your appointment

(10:06):
date. And that's when it becomes, well, your appointment tomorrow. And
you still don't like your drawing. So you got two choices. I'll move
your appointment out a little bit further, or
we just call it. yeah. the thing about putting the
appointment out too. Learning
where, like, my policies need to come from. Learning where,
like, I need to have firm boundaries with clients is, you

(10:26):
know, one of them was, like, how many times I move out an
appointment for example, you know, so it's like, I
used to do it indefinitely, and
now and then I think I moved it to, like, three times. And now
it's if I have to.
Move it more than once, yeah, we're done.
That or you put a new deposit.
Right
Because, like, I don't charge a deposit to

(10:48):
as like, a drawing fee. It's not an additional fee. It comes off the final price of the
tattoo. Yeah. It secures the spot
is, like, the biggest thing... but because, like, if you guarantee
you're gonna come in at five, you swear up and
down... if you don't put a deposit down and
someone comes in at, like,
4:55, I'm taking them
even though I know you're gonna come in, it's the fact... you didn't

(11:10):
pay a deposit, I can't risk it. So
deposits...part of that... deposit's also like,
if you No Call, No Show me, or we're
not seeing eye to eye or the fit is not good or like
there's some issue and you need to move your
appointment out. I was expecting to
make money that day and now I'm not.
Yeah, no, that's... Like you're out.

(11:31):
$100, but I'm out
$450. And I did a ton of
work for you, on top of it. Like a lot of people think it's
like, well, I want my money back. And I'm like, well
no, I did work for you. And they'm like, no, you
didn't. You didn't do the tattoo for me. I'm like, I did 1,000
drawings for you. That's not nothing. I don't normally charge for that.
But the deposit covers that in the event that like think right.

(11:53):
It gives you some insulation from.
Because I'm like, no, I did do work for you. There's a lot of work that
goes into the background that people don't think about.
They think it's just the time they spend in the studio with
me. That's the only thing that I do for them.
And I'm like, so with all those extra like
roles that you have to play, it can really only
be done in this method where you are

(12:14):
acting as your own like professional window.
There's not. Yeah, there's not a casual tattoo
artists. I'm sure there's some. I'm sure there's somebody who has
like a little at home tattoo gun and they just fuck around. But the
standard process is more what you're talking about.
And there isn't really a. Not
that that is normalized come

(12:35):
a walk in. Well, yeah, but you're still.
But there's still like a conversation at the start and
stuff. Obviously it's a truncated version of the process, but you're
still acting as your own like salesperson, your own agent, your own.
Oh yeah, any person who's just like, you know, a
commission based artist. Like
you do the art, you do the consultations,

(12:55):
you are the money guy, the schedule guy,
the. You do everything. You wear like a thousand
hats.
So how does that affect your burnout
threshold?
It's really tough. Like, especially in the last year.
I don't want to get like super into. But you know, last year was m like, you know,
the worst year of my life.

(13:17):
My sister died last year. So. Yeah,
and the recession got worse and worse throughout the year. So it's like
just add that on. And the fact that, you know, I had to be my own
assistant and manager and be the
tattoo artist, it was a little too much for
me and a lot of stuff fell by the wayside. you
know, I. Sometimes it's hard for me to, like, maintain, like, a

(13:37):
purely, like, professional boundaries. That's just weir to me. Like,
I'm spending several hours,
hurting you and then asking for money at
the end of it. Thankfully, my clients are really understanding,
but, like, in general, it's definitely
difficult. I have to be very regimented. I have to be
very strict with myself, and I have to, like, maintain
routines even if I don't want to. And that is

(14:00):
really, really difficult. And I really struggled with it and I
fell into bad routines, like ignoring
texts for days and weeks and, you know, and telling
myself it's like, oh, people will understand. And they do for a
little bit.
Does that add to or lighten the burnout or does it
just change what kind of burnout?
It changes the type of burnout. Like, on the one hand, like, if

(14:22):
I do, it's like
saving future me extra steps.
Like, no matter what, I have to do these steps. It's
just when I do them. The
number of times in my day
that I make a decision based on what future Griffin will have
to cope with.
I tell myself I'm like'post that

(14:43):
I did this. But it doesn't change the fact that I have to do these
things. Yeah, you know, it's like if I ask the questions now or ask the
questions later, but, you know, if I don't, like, when
I book an appointment, there's like a description box in the calendar and that's where I
write down all of my notes. I write down how much I quoted
them, I write down whether or not they paid a deposit.
You know, so it's like, if I don't do any of that now, I have to go
scrolling through texts and I have to go scrolling through emails and I have to dig it

(15:06):
up. And, like, this year I have to, like, be firm
about, like, I have a new policy where I'm like,
I will not be accepting DMs anymore. Like, I need you
to text me or email me. Like, I gota.
Because there was too many apps trying.
To track down information multiple places. Yeah.
Was it on TikTok? Was it on Instagram? Was it on
Facebook? Like, now we have to go digging. It takes longer.

(15:28):
Then if I just done it in.
The moment, I have the same glitch. And on
my website, I finally put in it, like, a direct form where I'm like, yep, if you
want a commission, go Right there. That'll at least give me like a
locked framework and then we can have the conversation there.
Yes. Last year I lost a lot
of money just because cancellation obviously lost
money, but I lost even more money from that because

(15:50):
I just was not good about sending people deposit
links.
Caus like, I use Square as a payment
portal and Square has an invoice app and so, like, you
can send people digital links to put in their card
information. So I can take a deposit. I just wasn't doing that. You can
skip steps in the moment, but you suffer
later. Maybe it's just, you know, because I work

(16:11):
with so many tattoo artists specifically, but like, not a single one
of us is neurotypical. So I feel like we all have like the
same neuropathways and like
idiosyncrasy... I don't want to
generalize,.. but it's.
One of those things like. So with my background,
my educational background being towards forensic psychology, the idea
of neurotypical versus neurodivergent is so,

(16:33):
It's apparently relatively new.
It's fairly new. But it's also very.
Creatives have to function in a certain way. And I think
because we're non conformining in our
thought process, you can't get a
new idea and go, oh, that's interesting, and play with
it when you're trying to get shit done.
Right.
Where if your entire job is trying to explore and

(16:55):
play, you're in open mode all the
time.
All the time.
Because you're not traveling in a straight line like everyone else.
And pl. You know, we've created a society
where we're trying to build people... we're trying to build little
factory workers. Right. Like, you know, the department of
education built the entirety of the school system to
train kids to work in factories, and then we just never

(17:17):
updated it, you know, so it's like they creative.
Kids when they started doing, math and English to make
middle managers.
Yeah. So it's like, you know, the
standard, you know, education that every kid gets, especially if you're
a creative kid. Like, it's not designed in a way that you
learn. And I wonder if it you almost like we
break our own brains to try to conform to

(17:38):
that. Like very read books, write papers, kind of
like learning that like kids just don't. Or like artistic kids
or creative kids doesn INV t vibe with them. That's not how they think, that's not how
they learn. And it's almost wondering, you know, do
we create like neurodivergent
kids because we Just don't cater to their needs.
Well, they did, they've done a lot of research and how creativity

(17:58):
works, but basically it's just how you were raised,
like what kind of environment you were in and what your peer group was
like at the time.
Right.
School systems are playing catch up to try to break that once
it's kind of been established.
Yeah. So it was funny just watching like all of my cowork workers do
the exact same way as me. And I'm, as far as I know,
I'm the only one

(18:19):
in my like studio who
is in therapy. So like, oh
God. So I'll like give everyone
free tips and, and tricks that like my therapist
teaches me.
I love that.
I've been told. I got 80 HD, I got 80 of
them.
Secondhand therapy is almost as good.

(18:40):
Free therapy tips on the curb.
First person to pick it up gets them.
Right. Cause like, you know me, my therapists work on
like, just behavioral stuff because like
ADHD is a mental thing, but it's just like
there's no, there's no fixing it. Your brain
is wired and I need to figure out where the wires
cross illegally and figure out

(19:02):
where those, where do you reach those
crossroads and how can we work around
it and how do we turn that into a habit?
Which as an ADHD person you don't create habits
normally, right?
No.
And so being a creative,
having habits,
disgusting.

(19:23):
It's interesting the number of people I know who,
where they fall in the divide between having a like
stable scheduled process
versus like, nope. It just hits
me and I go on a three week dive and then I resurface and I have no
idea what happened.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's weird
being like so rigidly

(19:43):
structured, which is like not
typical being creative because I feel like that's
almost just like a dedicated recipe for
burnout. Because like those two things fight
each other.
When you're, when working on projects where there's a lot of deadline, a lot of
collaboration, there is a closed mode function that
you kind of have to exist in obviously, but

(20:04):
there's like weird pitfalls that you can avoid. But the most
important thing is to make sure that you have structured open
mode time where you're like, I have this three hour period where I'm just
going to like turn off my phone, know that nobody's going to interrupt me and I'm going to
sit here and play with the ideas or I'm going to sit with a couple of people and
unpack some stuff and just like brainstorm and
do all that. But then when we leave that room,

(20:25):
we're in execution mode. And if a better idea shows
up and we're already committed to the first one, we're
not deviating, we hopefully get to use that
later. But likes, don't fuck around,
right?
Like, so many of my cowork workers will do, you know, it like I'll do my drawing the
day before or like the say of five time
and know, like consultations a million years ago,

(20:46):
you know, just kind of like seeat your pants. And I just. And you know, the
appointment takes however long it takes and I'll do it like start to finish.
And I'm just not like that.
No.
So like I do my drawing ahead of
time or you know, I like
meticulously schedule everything. Like it's not in my calendar. It's dead
to me, you know, Like, I can't keep that many
thoughts in my brain at once. What am I, a gymnast? What am I,

(21:09):
hero?
I have a similar thing because I can't think in images and
I can't think in words. I have to have processes,
I have to have records. My memory is
unreliable on the spot. Like
if you say something and it's familiar, I'll remember it. But
if you're like, hey, did I ever tell you about this? I'm like, like
the familiarity will trigger but I can't summon it.

(21:30):
That's why, like, I don't take phone calls.
yes.
Which a lot of people are just like, or doesn't want to
take phone calls.
And I'm like, no. I want a paper trail.
I want a paper trail. Like I either want you to text me or
email me or schedule a time to come in. Because if you just call me out of the
blue, like you're bamboozling me. Like I might
not be in front of my tablet where I can take notes. I might

(21:51):
not have paper near me where I can take notes. So like, if I
don't have something to refer back to,
I'm not gonn remember everything. So you calling me out of the
blue is not like scheduled time where I know that I can
dedicate to you. So I
don'take phone calls. I've got
the brain for that. Going

(22:12):
my shortcomings and like, you know, ye, the way I work
works for me and it doesn't work for everybody and that's totally
fine. But I like the way I work.
But you know, I've lowered my rates, which kind of sucks. Some
money's better than no money.
Negotiating with yourself as an artist, it's
painful, it's tricky, it sucksuse.
Like at first I raised my rates

(22:32):
to account for like higher cost of living. Right.
Wasn't as high as some other people, but I wasn't as
low as some other people. And another factor of
it was like, I'm m not new to the industry now
either. So I paid my dues. Like I've made it this far.
Charge a little bit more now. Like I was still getting the same number of
consultations, I just wasn't getting as many bookings. And I was

(22:53):
like, because you know, people would hear the price and they'd
freak out. You know, I had to have like a hard conversation with
myself being like, I'm going to lower my rates and
it's not because I'm not worth a higher rate
and it's not because the higher rate that I'm asking for is
too much like people happy to pay it.
People just can't pay it.
Yeah.
I'm not the only one suffering from higher cost of living. And

(23:15):
I am allowed to raise my wages.
Almost everybody else can't. But I
was like, all right, it has nothing to do with like skill level or like
what I deserve. It has everything to do with the economy and shit. That's
out of my control. So I lowered my rates and all of a
sudden bookings were a little bit better. So got do what you gott
do.
Then you're playing chicken with your own money.

(23:36):
Exactly. And I have to worry about like if I start a
huge project, like if I outline a whole thing,
you know, they'll pay for that and then
they'll just go somewhere else cheaper to get finished.
Yeah.
So someone else is getting like the benefit of having a really
solid foundation because you know,
I've always said like in terms of tattooing, like, I would

(23:57):
rather have a really solid
outline in garbage shading than
garbage. Like really good shading with a garbage outline.
Like one just looks way better than the other, you know, like I've done all
the hard work and like I also like I designed it. I made
sure everything flowed. Like I made
sure, you know, like the, the structure of the piece looked a certain

(24:17):
way. You know, I really worked hard on it, placing the stencils
and you know, the outline time, you know, just like
the grind part that no one really likes.
I did that. And then someone else gets to do the fun part for
cheap.
Sucks.
Sucks a lot.
No, that's some Merc bullshit. But I forget how it
happens.
But no, that is the hard workuse you are like, okay, so

(24:39):
this is one thing I want to unpack while I have you.
So we both work as commission artists. Like,
people come to us with a
sometimes barely formed idea, sometimes a
completely formed idea, and we have to figure out the
interpretation without being able to see in their
head and knowing what actually works
well on paper or skin

(25:01):
and try to get that connected at a
level. And I have my tricks of how I've gotten around it,
but, like, you're obviously working more with
iconography and, like, symbolism and
different concepts than I am, where I can kind of get away with, like,
oh, I know which character you want. I get the energy
you're looking for. And instead of. So I

(25:21):
run into this with artists, where they, like, will
really interrogate the person and try to get every detail
out and then try to deliver on that. And I
find that far too stressful. I.
It is pretty stressful because I tend.
To, like, if I can't picture things in my mind, I
know some people can. I don't. Do you have. You can picture things in your
head?
Picture things of my mind, yeah.

(25:42):
Okay. I have some friends who are artists who can, like, picture
very vividly so they know exactly what they're doing
before they even touch the paper.
Yeah.
I am kind of figuring it out on the way. So me trying to figure out what
the person seeing, Almost impossibility. So
I now just start with a.
What mood do you want the viewer to feel and
what mood do you want the image to be?

(26:04):
Like, could the character be despair? But you want it to be
hopeful for the viewer because you can do that tricks,
and then I can deliver on the emotion. And I get
forgiven for not nailing what they saw on their head.
Right. Some clients, like.
And I'm weird.
I approach tattooing somewhat differently than a

(26:26):
lot of my peers, than a lot of people in the industry. Like, I get a lot
of flack, but, you know.
Right. I show my clients drawings
ahead of time. Can you imagine?
Wait, is that not standard?
No, not at all.
Oh, that's... that's dangerous.

(26:46):
It's very much like, you get what you get, and you don't get upset.
Usually. A lot of people get, like, pressured and bullied into
getting tattoos that aren't 100% right. But they don't know how to talk to the
artist. Know.
Yep.
And a lot of artists will also use the, you know, like, I'm
the professional. I know it's good for you.
Oh, that's such kind of
ink Masters when I was watching that backag in the day, like, there's all that, like,

(27:07):
weird ego control thing.
Yeah, there's a huge ego thing. And like, I came at
tattooing from, like, a different angle. I
obviously had tattoos and, like, tattoos and like, like
alternative culture, but, like, alternative culture and
like, tattoo culture, like two different beasts. So, like, I was already
part of, like, alternative culture. Sure.
But, you know, when I was in art school specifically, I

(27:28):
was, you know, I really wanted to do, like, book illustration
and. Yeah, majorly. I wanted to have
like, you know, a desk job, you know, some kind of
corporate, you know, 9 to 5. I
could never work from home. Never. Like, I
don't't have the discipline. I fell asleep on
the couch this morning after I woke up. Like, I could

(27:49):
never. If there's no deadline, I
forget it. Like, you know, and I can't self impose
deadlines. I don't have to. Listen to me. There's no
consequences.
I understand. M. That entire. I can always.
I can always convince my boss that I don't need to finish it
today.
And I would just do that forever and ever and ever. And also, like, you know, the

(28:09):
idea of
fighting a million other artists for the same commission
stresses me out. So at least, like, having less people to fight
with is amazing. And, you know, I work in an office,
I work specific hours, you know, so at least,
like, I kind of realized that
the client artist relationship that I wanted
and like, the, environment I wanted to work

(28:32):
in, very conducive to tattooing. That's kind of how I
came in at it. But, like, I also had all these
habits and, you
know, values, what ended up becoming values,
that kind of ingrained in me from art school, where
it's like, you show thumbnails, you
show sketches. You only move forward once
things are approved because otherwise it's

(28:54):
a huge waste of time to have to make a
million corrections when you've already made it so far through,
like, the next stage.
And I do, like,
meticulously, like,
follow like a regiment of how, like, you know, I
conduct my consultations, how I show
sketches ahead of time. Because, like, I hate making changes

(29:16):
day of. Because that eats into the tattoo
time. Yeah, I book, and again, I'm
weird about this too. I book three hour appointments
usually. I'll make exceptions here, there, but for the most part, the
longest I'm gonna sit, especially for a long piece, is three
hours. So it's like you're coming in every two weeks for
three hour verst. To work on a large piece.
You're also ridiculously fast though. Like you, your

(29:38):
line confidence. Like, I think
the first time you tattooed me it was maybe
it may been a little longer than three hours. Maybe up to four, four
and a half.
Like four or five.
Yeah, but you did my entire, the weird line work
thing on my left forearm and then the entire piece,
color and all end to end in that one sitting. It was
insane.
You know, a little bit of that is just experience

(30:00):
and a little bit of that is like new technology.
Cool.
But you know, so it'like it you making
changes, like cuts, into your like 3 hour plan slot. Like that's less time
than I can tattoo you and I to my own
detriment half the time. I just don't believe in charging for work
that I didn't do. But like most artists don't charge
for the drawing. Ah, we charge for like needle to skin

(30:21):
time. So it's like that's just kind of rolled into
it.
Yep.
So it's like if I'm making changes, you know, it doesn't occur to me to really in
charge that time. A lot of times, like if I have to place like a million
stencils, if I'DRAW on you, I usually don't charge for that time.
Which is weird. I probably should.
It does. It does seem like it should be part of
the structure. But I get it because I also like when

(30:42):
people hire me to do an illustration, I'm not charging them for
like the eight thumbnails that I'm doing just for my
own edification.
Right.
I just charge for the end result and know how long it should take me. And
if I take more time, I've made my own problem. But then if
I show it to them and I need to make edits, then I'm like, oh, I, I've shot myself
twice.
Right. If you want me to make eight changes, tell me all

(31:03):
eight of them at once. Don't make me draw it eight times. That
drives me fucking nuts.
I usually only run into that type of stuff when I like, I do a lot of D and D
characters the past few years. so with those I understand
like they, there is specific things that'the way they want
am. Yeah, but like thank God most of
the time because again, I'm working off that vibe structure more

(31:23):
so I can get away with a lot more wiggle
room.
So like very rarely do I find a client where it's like
I'll do a drawing and they'll be like, no, not
even close. And I'll be like, oh, okay.
And, you know, I'll do, like a second drawing. I'm like,
you know, they're worried about hurting my feelings, so they're not really,
like, being firm about, like, I need you to change

(31:44):
this. And you. I'll get to a point with them where I'm like, listen, I
know you see something very clearly in your
head sometimes. Usually with those clients, like,
third or fourth time. It's usually like a client doesn't know how
to articulate what it is that they see.
Yeah.
Which I try to forgive people. We find
this a lot in tattoo culture too, where artists will get really
annoyed with their clients for not knowing the process

(32:07):
or not knowing how to articulate themselves. And I'm like,
why would they, on an
everyday basis, need to know something that's not their
job?
Yeah, no, that's the whole thing. And it's a learning thing.
On the one hand, like, you know, I love being
in the, you know, creative business ca because, like, they're coming
to me because they can't do it themselves. But if anyone ever gives me
attitude, I'm providing them with a

(32:30):
service. And, you know, we've taught a whole
generation of Karen'that like, you can treat
service workers like they're your servants. So, you know, it's kind
of nice to be able to clap back with that, then do it yourself
and're like, whoa, ho. And you're like, all right, it'be nice to
me.
I don't know when it came back into the Zeit case, but for years
I had, been aware of the fact that that term, the customers always

(32:51):
right was an incomplete statement.
The original concept that they've truncated for the
purposes of weaponization was the customers always write
in matters of taste, which only means
that they will buy what they like. And you can't tell them
they're wrong. That's what that means. Then
they cut down love incomplete

(33:12):
quotes.
Like, my favorite is, like, when people get the,
blood is thicker than water, they
sit there being like family over everything.
Right?
and the full quote is, blood of the
covenant is thicker than water of the womb, which
means exact opposite, right?
So that kills me. And I wanna say it so

(33:32):
bad, but it's one of those things where it's like, you know, one, this person has to live with
this tattoo forever. And two, you know, if
I say something, they're go goingna feel foolish. The artist is going toa
feel foolish. You know, it's like, I Don't want to undermine
the client or the artist doing it. So. And they have to live in it forever. So you
have just like, oh, this thing.
And that is one of those ones where like it is a well meaning
edit that has recoquialized. So like,

(33:54):
I get that one a little bit better. It's not being weaponized against
people in the same way. When weaponized against people, I will step
in the way of that bullet and be like, no, that's not how that
works.
You know the one I usually step in with? it's funny
because, like, we joke and we're usually right.
But you know, there's like certain types of like clients, you can tell they're
toxic as a person from like a mile away because

(34:15):
based on the tattoos that they get.
Oh.
Like if someone's getting loyalty tattooed like
gigantic on their person somewhere.
Yeah. Nope.
No, because they don't mean loyalty.
They mean, they are demanding obedience.
I was gonna. Yeah, that's exactly.
It's a little thing like that. And it's like,

(34:36):
oh, okay. Ah. Or like you get couples who are getting like,
you know,
huaneing his queen. I was like,
oh, sure.
In this case, do you even
tiptoe by asking whose idea it was that of
the two of them?
This is one of those things where it's like, you know, is this a bad idea?

(34:57):
Absolutely. But if it is a bad idea, it's
two guaranteed tattoos. The tattoo itself and
the COVID up. Yeah.
Like sometimes you get girls, sometimes guys, but
usually girls who are like, oh, I want my boyfriend's name, but where can I put it
where it's easily hidden? And I'm like, let me take
you one step further. Not only will I put it somewhere easily

(35:17):
hidden, let's do it in red.
So when we you cover it out later.
Done.
Oh, that is so good. Like, I want,
I want to do the gesture, but I want the escape route. Already
play.
although sometimes for like cover ups, part of my payment
is I do demand the story.
Oh, why did you especially

(35:39):
like, sometimes if it's just, you know, like an image of something and it's like
they just want to cover for whatever reason. I don't usually if there's like
words or lyrics
or if it's a match, clearly a matching tattoo, or if it's a
name, I want the story. TMI
does not mean too much information. It means tell me immediately.
I'm so nosy. It's a problem.

(36:01):
No, but I love that I will put the marks on you, but
you have to tell me the tale.
You have to tell me for, like, you know, your
bartender, your hairdresser, your tattoo artist. They are
also your therapist.
And you're just taking these stories and, like, yeah,
I'm gonna translate.
That's what you need to know in my head now that it's
in my brain. And also, like, I really focus on,

(36:22):
like, making sure that the way I approach tattooing,
which is not the way most people do, is, like,
collaborative.
Yeah.
I don't want to see my clients as, like, you
know, a, nameless, faceless canvas. Like, that
was, like, one of my biggest pet peeves on, like, you know, the Ink Master
show. They're, like, introduce you to your canvas. I'm like, they're
people.
Yeah.

(36:43):
They have, like, you know, thoughts and ideas, and, you know, they want
to, like. To me, like, having tattoos is like being able to wear
your favorite outfit every single day. You know, y. like, it's
more than just, like, it is the artwork,
obviously, but it's also, like, it says something about you,
and, you know, it's personal. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's
goofy. But, like, that still says something about you at the end of the

(37:03):
day, though, you know? So it's like, I don't like the idea
of, like, you get what you get and you don't get upset, you know? it's like, no,
they're gonna wear this forever. This should be very
collaborative. And I don't, like, obviously,
sometimes I'll just be like, no, this
is. I don't do that style. Or I'm m.
Like, if you don't let me do this. And why did you come to me in

(37:23):
the first place? Like, you could have asked someone else.
Yeah.
So sometimes I'll assert, like, my own style here or there, but,
like, for the most part, I'm like, you. No, this should be collaborative.
Like, people cut the client out of the process, and I'm
like, without the client, you got nothing.
So this is interesting because I don't run into
this as often, but, like, I feel like this is a lot
easier when I get a commission, because

(37:45):
if someone comes to me and they inter re asking for something that is
clearly out of my wheelhouse, some'body like, look. This is the style of the
art that you can see.
Right?
This is how it's going to look in the way you're
describing. It's not like, if you're saying you want it to
be a. Like a pop art thing,
that's not really.
It's still gonna show me on my, like, Instagram where

(38:05):
you saw that.
Yeah. And if they can't, I'm like, I can refer you to somebody
who I know does that style, but, like, I'm the wrong pick and
it's a lot easier of a distinction where I can just do that. Where I feel
like with tattoos, they do expect you to
be almost. This is going to be. This is not
insulting. I think this is the viewer end issue. But
I think they're treating this like how tech people now treat

(38:26):
AI Were like, if I give you the prompt, you will spit out things
until I like what I like.
Hm. Yep.
And it drives me nuts.
Yep. At the end of the day, like, yes, I do want to
do the best I can for you. I want to make something you're going to be
happy with that I'm also happy with. I'm very big about, like,
if we're not both happy with this, like, I'm not doing it.
But, you know, people come me'like oh, I want you to do a portrait.

(38:48):
I'm like, I don't do portraits. I do animal
portraits. I don't do people's portraits. I don't do people. I'll do
cartoon characters. I'll do like, semi realistic people.
It'll always be stylized. I don't do
photo realism. I just find myself as like, semi
realism where it's like, it's not quite full photo
realism. There's blackoutlines, but it's not likeing
either.

(39:09):
No, you have like'the textures, figurative
framing, but you have that, like, illustrative line work that really, like,
anchors it all.
Exactly. So it's like, you know, I very much like to live
in a semi realistic place. Sometimes I'll do, like, you know, no
outline flowers or like that. But they're still very stylized and,
you know, they're not photorealistic. You know, the
color gives me away every time because I just don't know how to not fully

(39:30):
saturate something.
Yeah.
I love bright colors. One of my
coworkers is like, the sweetest beingan I've ever
seen. And he really wants to, like, make it as, like, an
anime tattooer. And, you know, he's still in his apprenticeship.
And anime is super fun. It's like, it's one of
my favorite styles to do. Just because it's super
high color. It's a lot of, like,

(39:52):
movement and, like, there's a lot of
emotion there. And, you know, like, it's fun color, it's fun line
weights, it's you know, fun designs. And so
he's been asking me to do a bunch of his favorite anime characters as
part of, like, a. To have cool tattoos and also to, like, you
know, learn from these. So that's really fun. So we get to do.
I'm doing Bakugo from My Hero Academia.

(40:13):
Love that.
Love of my life.
I'm doing. Sure. You really
try this next year to, like, do a lot more anime
tattoos. And I've been, like, hopelessly obsessed with, like,
Hazbin Hotel. It's got me in, like, a chill.
Oh, my God. So good. Did you ever watch
Helluva Boss?
Hell, yeah, I did. Nice. So I'm hoping I can

(40:34):
do some more, like, fun pieces like that. Even if I have to do at a
discount. I just want to. I just want to put them on my Instagram and try
to, like, you know, wrap the hell out of them and see if I can get
more. Because I try to cater my Instagram to, like,
what I want to do more of.
Yeah.
To get people.
Honestly, that's what every. Every artist should only be posting stuff that they
want to do more of. Like, I get the. Keeping track

(40:54):
of all your stuff is a thing, but it's not.
It's not clear to the customer when you're, like, doing things
that. Like, when I do a commission that I
am not as into, but, like, I know I can execute, but, like,
especially for holiday commission, sometimes it's like, oh,
somebody wants this. It's not my normal thing, but I can execute
it, so I will. I don't put it on my Instagram.

(41:14):
Right.
I don't put every single tattoo I do.
Absolutely. But sometimes there're... I don't want to do
more of.
Yeah.
Or a lot of times it's not finished. I don't want to post unfinished work
either.
Also, that.
Yeah.
and you. So you're working with this person at FINAO
Yep.
Neat.
"Failure Is Not An Option"
I can't believe I did not know that that was an initialism

(41:36):
or an anagram.
Anagram, I believe.
Yeah. If it's a word it's an anagram. There we go.
It's pronounceable.
There we go.
But I didn't either. When I first got the job, I was like, I don't know how to
pronounce this, and I'm not saying it unless someone else does it. And so I heard
it pronounced as spineo. And I was like, fantastic. After, like, a few
weeks, I was like, wonderful.
It makes sense. Like, I definitely had said it as

(41:56):
finio before, but, like, knowing now that it's a
failure is not an option. That A is
accented for the obvious reason.
Yeah. Or like, I heard "fin-ow" lot. But,
like, I think we have a sign in the shop that says like, really
tiny on the bottom. Like, failure is not an option. I was like, o.
Do you remember that T shirt brand "No Fear" that had like, the

(42:18):
little eyes and it was just. It feels like that
energy. Yeah.
We're like that's so clever.
and your Instagram is still, kitt hit
E Rn.
Rin. Yep.
I never have to pronounce it. How do you spell that?
K, I, T, T, I, E, R, I, N, E.
It's like Katherine but

(42:40):
like Katie instead of Cat.
Yeah.
I thought I was so clever, when I came up with it in, like, middle
school.
I love when you get it right on the first try that early. Especially
nowadays where there's so much, like, competition
for good names.
Right. Nobody ever. Nobody better take it.
No one ever takes it. And it's been like a nickname since middle school, but I've
been using it for everything for so long that it'just.

(43:02):
Like, I've been very lucky
with, with ShadedAreas. I've got no real competition. And with
Griffin Ess, I've got no competition. So it's
been very nice.
A lot of people were asking because I'm getting married at the end of the year. Was like,
are you gonna m. Change your name? Like, no.
I forgot about that. Congratulations.
Thank you.
Has that. How's that crept going?
It's going. we just booked the dj, so

(43:25):
we're getting there. We have like one more taste testing for catering
and then we're pretty much done with like, all the major vendors. And then I just
need to, like, start. And of course, you know, we're
poor and thrifty and creative,
so we're like, DIYing like most of the decor and I'm like,
DIYing like, half of my dress. So that help be the
next thing that I need to get going on because

(43:45):
nine months will go so bad.
Well, I have tons of connections in this
realm, so if you end up hitting any weird blind spots, let m me know and I'll
put you in touch with someone who can help.
Sounds great. I love that. Well, thank you.
I let you get back to your day. You can go take a new nap on your
couch.
I probably will, honestly. It's the heated
blanket stays on for 10 hours. So that's.

(44:07):
still totally - I have elecric sheets and with the cold right now. Like,
the second I get in bed I'm like, and we're done.
And nap time.
But thank you for chatting with me.
You too. Good to see you, my love.

(44:29):
Well, that was a lot more of a deep
dive than I expected, but it was. The tangents were
fun.
That, ah, sounds nice. I couldn't hear that much
of it, but. But it looked interesting. I'm excited to hear
what you talked about.
Well, before we dive into any, like, topics, I feel
like you have tattoos, and
I know friends of mine who have gotten feously. I know people who take

(44:51):
it very seriously. How have you interacted with
this process?
I love tattoos. I have
known that I wanted them since I was, like,
13, and I spent the five years before
I could legally get them planning.
Nice.
I've got eight at this point.
I think I've seen two.

(45:14):
I think you've seen more than two. At the
very least, you've seen pictures of them.
I vaguely remember a picture of a sternum. One
or under sternum?
Yeah, under.
Slightly under sternum. and the rest are all
on my leg.
Gotcha.
to return to the question you asked me.
Yes.
I love art, and I love having

(45:34):
art with me all the time. So, like, some of my
tattoos really don't have that much
meaning, but some of them mean more than
others. And the tattoo that I've been
planning is gonna be a matching one with my
sister. We have a bunch of
our dad's old, like, architectural drawings, and
there's a couple designs for, like, wrought iron fencing that he

(45:57):
did.
Oh.
So we're both gonna get the fence just, like, as a
band around our arms.
That's very cool.
I'm very excited about it. And it's gonna be her
first tattoo, so I've very much placed it, like,
okay, we do this when you're ready. You get to pick the
artist. You get to pick the circumstance. I am

(46:17):
okay with whatever. And that's gonna
go very well with my biggest
plan. A set of New York City fire
escapes down my, ribs
on the side, because I'm
proud of my hometown. What can I say? And also, I think
it's gonna look sick.
Yeah.

(46:37):
Even if I didn't have a
notes app full of ideas and,
like, plans.
Of course you do.
Of course I do. I'm me. I've had it since before I could legally
get tattoos.
But even if I didn't have this list of
plans, I think I would still

(46:58):
want to get something else Just because it's
a physical sensation unlike anything else.
And it's very grounding for me
is like altering my body as a
way to make sure I stay in it.
Interesting that I can see
that. Wow. I have a very different relationship

(47:19):
with my ink than you do. When I went to cat to get
the left arm done, she very
kindly pointed out, it was gonna be like
$30 worth of actual ink that was go goingna cost $150
due to time and prop and prep and stuff. And she's like, you might as well
get like something else. I'm like, well, I don't really have
any. I don't know. I didn't have a drive to, like, have a lot
of ink. You know, how about this then? I'll give you a list of a

(47:42):
couple of things that I associate with. And.
And I was like, oh, I'm gonna show up for the thing on my left
arm and whatever you've done, just put it on my
rightarm. And she's like, okay, but
I'm going to show it to you first. I'm like, no, I'm not going to look at it.
So it was purely just trust falling into her
artwork and being like, look, if you're going toa put something here, if I'm

(48:02):
part of the process, I'm not going to be helpful. I'm going toa
have like. My brain's much better at spotting
things that are. I'm sure you've noticed I'm not very
solution oriented in the moment. I usually
have to brew and unpack before I can see solutions,
but in the moment, I can spot problems
and I knew that would be unhelpful for the conversation.

(48:23):
So I was just like, no, just put it on me
and I'm gonna trust that it's going to be beautiful and
that's all that matters. She was going to put on me. She's like, can you please
just like, I've done the sketch on your arm. Can you look at'm like,
nope. And I just looked left for four
hours until she finished.
Yeah, I don't think I could ever do
that. I don't even like the thought

(48:45):
of doing those. Like, put, a
nickel in the thing and like, ah, get whatever tattoo comes out of the gumball
machine.
That's a thing!?
I don't like that. Yeah, no. So many
tattoo places do that with like, their flash designs and
there's tiers for how much they cost and stuff like that.
Interesting.
They're great for Other people. I

(49:05):
could never. Because, like, if I hate it,
it'snna be upsetting, and it's
entirely possible that I hate it.
Yeah.
so I really like working with an artist to figure
out what I want for
my sternum. I
had an idea and I just took a pen
and, like, drew on my own body.

(49:27):
Oh.
And took pictures of that and sent it to her.
And also had, like, a long conversation with Andrea
about what I was looking for, my
general style, like, how many tattoos I had before and stuff
like that. And she was fantastic
the entire time. like, was very good about checking in
if I needed breaks and stuff. So it ended up taking

(49:47):
about two hours. And a
couple of weeks ago, I was going back through my camera
roll and I found the original pictures
I had sent and the nice pictures
she had taken of the piece right after it was done.
Nice.
And I put them side by side and it was like, oh,
she did exactly what I

(50:09):
drew, just in an incredibly
beautiful, well rendered style,
as opposed to my very messy pen on my
abs drawing.
It's great. And
similarly to you, I trust that the artist knows
best. So I love talking with an artist and figuring
out, like, I have this idea, how can

(50:30):
we make this something that both of us feel good about?
And honestly, that's been the biggest reason why
I don't have more yet is because I
know that talking to an artist and doing
that in depth process, ain't cheap.
I want to pay them what they're worth. And,
like, the tattoos that I most deeply

(50:51):
want at the moment, aside from the solid plans that I've
had for years, are like, I want a Twenty Sided Tavern
tattoo. Actually, at some point,
I know better than to get it right after the show
closes.
Yeah.
Because that's an emotional decision.
I'm not doing that. I know better. But,
like, there's a line in, the DMs close

(51:12):
closing monologue that says,
"Tomorrow is unwritten and you are its truest author."
Yeah.
And that line has hit me
like a ton of bricks every time I've seen the
show. Like, the first time I saw
it with our mutual friend and
I heard that line and I

(51:32):
nearly started crying, which, like, I don't cry.
But it really, it really affected
me and it has continued
to resonate with me every time I've seen
the show. So in a few
months time, if I have the means
and I still have the desire, I want to work

(51:53):
with a tattoo artist to figure out how can
I turn this into a piece of art
because I Don't want
all of my tattoos to just be text.
I like that you're mindful about these things.
We did hit a couple of pins on, running a
small business like this, where you're offering a creative
service, is too many hats. There's

(52:15):
the trying to grow your price tag
with, the economy, but then, like, trying to be ethical
about, like, not overcharging people who are also being affected by
the same economy. It is weird. I have some friends who
are very strict about this. Like, they raise their
rates for things 10% every year like
clockwork, and they just made it a norm, and people expect

(52:35):
it, and it's what it is. And
Pat hit a very specific point, of she had to down her
pricing and negotiate with herself, essentially because
she had the empathy informing her realization
that while the economy was getting
inflated for herself and she needed to
make her own ends meet, so does everyone

(52:56):
else, so they can afford these luxury purchases,
like tattoos. Less and
some money is better than no money, and more happy
people is better than less happy people.
But she did really put a big highlight on the
idea. I think she phrased it as getting to wear your
favorite outfit every day. And she is absolutely

(53:17):
in love with putting ink on people with that as
the core concept of what she's offering.
I really love that. I.
Because most of mine are, like,
covered by my clothing, I sometimes forget
they're there. like, I forget that I have
a, shoulder tattoo constantly, and it's

(53:37):
like, what's that mark? I'm like, oh, right.
Yep.
But there are others that, like, the week I got
to take the, second skin off of my
sternum piece, I was like, oh, fuck, I have to get more crop
tops. So, like,
in the year and a half. Ish,
since I got that tattoo, I have

(53:59):
worn way more crop tops than I ever did before, because now
there's something there that I want to show off that I love.
Like, and it's also, like, a conversation starter
sometimes. Yeah, I'm hanging out,
in, like, the park or something. Or if I'm at
a party and my tattoo is
visible, it's an automatic thing that somebody can,

(54:19):
like, point out and talk to. I was. This isn't even
my story. I was at a party last year,
and I was there with the person I was dating, and it was
a theater party, so I had brought
them, and they did not know most of the other people
there. And I was chatting with my friend,
and they noticed that the person sitting next to

(54:40):
them had a tattoo that Looked like
it was by the same artist who did most of theirs.
so they struck up a conversation and as far as
I, like, I don't talk to that person anymore. But
as far as I know, they're still really
good friends because -Amazing-
They found this one similarity that

(55:01):
spiraled into talking about tattoos, talking
about D and D, talking about art design,
and it was like, oh, okay, they're the same person in
different fonts. So they got this
wonderful friendship.
Such a good line. The same person, different. That's so
good.
I did not make it up.
I did not.
No. But I've never heard it before and I love it.

(55:21):
Oh, that's like, that's a thing. I did not make it
up.
That is so good.
I do not get credit for it.
No, that's fine.
But yeah, it is a good way to explain people.
Yeah, yeah.
You have a lot of similarities, but you present, the
way you present those traits
differs. Some of you have seraphs and not and stuff
like that.

(55:43):
Tattoos as social lubricant is absolutely
a thing I love about them. Actually, you'll get a kick out of this. When I was
talking to Cat, I specifically said, it's kind of like having, It's like a version
of Thieves Cant. Like, it is an unspoken
language that if you know it, you know it and if you don't, you
don't. But like, if you see
recognized concepts on someone else's skin,
you're like, oh, su.

(56:05):
Yeah, no, that's a great way to put it. I feel
like also it's getting less so
as tattoos become more mainstream and like,
being heavily tattooed is more normalized, which I'm very
happy that that's happening. That should absolutely be the
case. but for a long time, and
still to an extent, there's the

(56:25):
subculture around it of like, okay, if you have
visible tattoos, that says something about
you. And that can be added to the
mental equation of what is this person wearing, what stance
are they taking, what tone of voice are they using? And
all fit together to be able
to identify who is safe and
not.

(56:46):
Yeah. Have you ever seen
Shayne Smith's stand up comedy?
No, I have not.
He has a bunch of face and neck tattoos
and they are dramatic. But he has
a lot of bits about how having those
tattoos has affected his day to day
life and they are fantastic. And if anyone has

(57:07):
the opportunity, they should check them out. I will share a link with
you, but'one of my favorite bits of his is
he lived down the street from a 7 11 and going in all
the time, multiple times for, like, Mountain Dew refills.
And as he walks in, there's a new employee, but there's another employee
with him. He's like, "Hey, it's Mountain Dew guy". And he goes, "Not
face and neck tattoo guy?" - "Yeah. No, He drinks a lot of Mountain

(57:28):
Dew, like, so much. What are you not understanding about this?"
Yeah, because at a certain point, they just become a part
of you. They become very normal.
Yeah.
And if you see and interact with people a
ton, you have other personality
traits.
Exactly. This was a good day

(57:48):
today. I haven't talked to Cat in a while, and knowing that
you and I both share very different perspectives on tattoos
now I just feel it stirring around in my head.
That's great. I love leaving a day or a
conversation with nice things
to think about. Sometimes you leave a conversation and it, like,
sticks with you for a bad reason.
But I really value

(58:09):
when I can tell that just talking to
somebody is making me better.
Yeah, no, it's definitely gonna be a
little distracting while I try to go back to doing my big adult
job later. But for now, happy
thoughts.
Happy thoughts.
And then we'll fly away to never
never land. Am I

(58:29):
scared of heights? That's a whole other thing.
I will talk to you next time.
That sounds good.

(59:00):
Yeah. I also cannot hear the phrase of, being your
own boss without thinking of Riva from
A Starstruck Odyssey.
"We're all running our own little pyramid schemes."
Yeah. When I've tried to do these types of projects or any
type of, like, public facing project that's on a
schedule, I'm really bad at
maintaining that schedule. And

(59:21):
having you part of this has,
like, even though I don't think you'll hold it against me, I don't
want to disappoint your energy
and time by not meeting the schedules.
I mean, you're right. I would never be upset.
I appreciate, that. I like motivating
people.
If you enjoyed this episode, we have plenty

(59:44):
more and you're encouraged to subscribe or follow
if you're curious. Head to
shadedareas.com for more information
about the show and other projects related to us.
M if you're generous, head over to
patreon.com/createartrepeat where you can support
the show. Thanks for listening. And until
next time, stay thoughtful, stay

(01:00:05):
playful, and keep creating.