June 5, 2025 • 51 mins
This episode I'm unpacking idea development, collaboration, and production with the wonderful and talented John Lehr. We delve into the glitch of worrying about protecting your ideas, trusting the people who work with you, and knowing when to switch from the spinng plate you're currently filling up to the one that has the eyes on it.
John Lehr is a comedic actor, writer, and producer known for his work in television, film, and on stage. He is recognized for his roles in "10 Items or Less," "Quick Draw," and as one of the original GEICO Cavemen in their successful commercials. He has also hosted shows like "News Weasels," "I'm a Celebrity… Get Me Out of Here!" and "John Lehr's Movie Club".
John currently cohosts the podcast Intro to Anthro with 2 Humans along side John McCray, is intermittently touring with Susan Messing with thier show Messing with Lehr, and is developing his new project Lifandi on the @Lifandi.Groceries Instagram account.
Where to find John online.
https://www.youtube.com/@introtoanthrowith2humans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkMPV7xoeXw
https://www.instagram.com/lifandi.groceries
Support Create - Art - Repeat https://www.patreon.com/createartrepeat
Credits:
Music: Douglas Appleman - http://www.Douglas-Appleman.com/
Copyeditor/Proofreader: Reed Floarea - https://www.floareaindexing.com/
Co-Host: Archer Ezra Rosenbloom - https://www.instagram.com/cos_and.effect
Co-Host: Griffin Ess - https://www.shadedareas.com/
Original date of episode publication: June 5th, 2025
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
you know, I do some voice acting stuff.
Yes.
And I did get a gig of doing a
kids book, so- That's really fun. It
is. I'm using the technique you
taught me for D&D stuff, but it
has been a challenge.
I love my D&D NPC voice
tracker spreadsheet format. It makes
(00:26):
me very happy. I'm also very happy that
it's worked out for you in your own way. Because I know that I had
to explain like how I went
about filling it out a couple of times in like a different
way for you to really click into
it.
But yeah, this has been fun.
(00:47):
John is a actor,
TV producer. does a lot of improv based
performances, a lot of off the cuff stuff. So even his TV
shows, it was just, here's what we're trying to do
here's the start of the scene, here's the end we're trying to get
... everyone just go. And they would just do takes
and takes and takes and pick whatever one did the
best fit together. And that was the
(01:10):
whole process. the one that I fell in love with was called
Quickdraw, but uh, Geico Caveman?
Probably before your time, actually.
Okay. If it was before the lizard, then yes, before my
time.
Gotcha. I'm
glad he was willing to do this chat with me. I am really looking
to unpack his collaborative concepts on
creativity and like how
(01:33):
systems of collaboration and production
and like getting complicated projects from one end into the other
work. I'm not sure where the conversation's gonna
go.
Sounds like it's gonna be an interesting one no matter what.
I can't imagine it won't be. So. He's gonna be here soon
and I know what I'm gonna try to talk
to him about. But I have gotten very
(01:53):
comfortable asking you what you would like to know.
Oh this is a tough one because I
have less personal
relation to like anything close to
TV producing, I guess. You said
he's prolific and like works on a bunch of different stuff, I think.
I'm curious if there's
consistency in the people he works with. Like
(02:16):
does he have a go to crew or is
it a find new people for
whatever project is appropriate and stuff like that.
Gotcha. On, the outward facing side, like the
performance side, there's a lot of overlap with his people he's
worked with, but who you're allowed to bring in... crew
stuff, I don't know. I'll try to get to unpack some of that.
Cool.
(02:37):
All right. My mug's dry. I'M gonna go solve that
and I'll chat with you in 40-45 i think...
maybe a little less.
Sounds good. Looking forward to it.
(02:57):
John! good to see you. Thanks for coming over for this.
Oh, My pleasure, man. It's good to see you, Griffin
I think the last time I saw you in person
was at your BU Lecture where I did the illustration of you from the
audience.
Yes. Which was amazing and
then we saw each other afterwards, right?
Did you come-
Yeah, we went to the Cantina after.
(03:17):
Yeah, that was great. yeah, sorry, I did
a lot of drugs in the 90s, Griffin. It's amazing that I can
remember anything at all.
Right, that was part of the lecture you
gave.
Yeah, yeah. I've now been sober
for 29 years. Can you believe it?
It's absolutely amazing. And congratulations on that. Glad to hear you re coming
up on 30.
(03:39):
Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to take credit for
it, but, you know, the further
away I get from that day of first getting sober, the
less I think I had anything to do with it.
I mean, that's fair. Support systems
and having the right people with you to check you is kind
of the most important part.
Yeah, it really is. It really is
(04:00):
So you're well into that
Intro to Anthro with 2 Humans
podcast.
Yes, that is a
Intro to Anthro with 2 Humans
is a podcast I do with my, old friend
John McCray, who's an anthropologist now.
So we discuss anthropology issues. But
obviously, since I'm involved, it has a
(04:22):
comedic bend to it and he's a
really funny guy. I mean, he... Yeah,
so, yeah, we just did our 70th
episode and you know, we have a
growing group, of listeners who
are very committed to it
and suggest topics. And we've done that
great, tons of great topics. Anything from
(04:44):
like, you know,
anthropological issues of prehistoric
time to current, issues and
things like sleep and things like anything that
affects the human, is really, it's
cool. It's really neat. It's fascinating. I learn a
ton from it because it's, while it's loose and funny,
it's very, well, you know, researched.
(05:05):
Oh, yeah, no, but the way you two play off each other.
Absolutely love it every time.
Yeah, me too.
And I saw that 10 Items or Less made a
Jeopardy appearance days ago
(at time of discussion)
My life is now complete. yes,
10 Items or Less, which is that show I did for
TBS back in the Day, was a question
(05:28):
on Jeopardy. It was amazing and they even showed
it was 1200 level question too
which was great. Wasn't a daily double but
that-
Little screenshot of you all.
Yeah. They showed a picture of the cast
and my phone just immediately blew
up as everybody was like "Oh my God"
those Jeopardy junkies out there.
(05:50):
Oh yeah.
But it was. I gotta say that was pretty cool.
That's neat. Definitely one of those little
zeitgeist benchmark bucket list moments.
One of the guys who emailed me or
texted me first was Jack
who is the owner of the store that
we shot in and -that's
(06:11):
amazing- He was so happy and it was just
so funny to talk to him again because we shot...
When we shot that show the store was open
for business while we shot.
Oh wow.
Yeah. Ah. So all the extras are mostly ...
occasionally we'd hire... but most of the extras in the
show are real people that are just
---
(06:32):
Amazing what you can do when you need to just to make a project like
that come together.
They made it so much more fun because otherwise we would have had
to rent the store and shoot at night and...
Right.
That's just a- no
it changes everything.
Yes. It's hard to be funny at
4:30 in the morning, you know.
No, but that was one of your shows that I never, I had never
(06:53):
been able to get into becausee I couldn't find it in anyplace. I had found you
obviously through a Quickdraw and just falling in love with that
way... when it came out like from the day one I was just like oh, I live
here now. Yeah. Now 10 Items or Less
being on Roku I was able to catch up and then like right
at... I think I finished it like a week or two ago and
then Jeopardy you post-
(07:14):
Maybe you caused it.
Maybe it was your energy. There's a third
series that I did called Jailbait which
is very difficult to find but I can I can send
you a link on the down on the DL. It's our...
It was our attempt at rated R
-Oh- and it. It's
crazy.
I would love that but I will definitely keep it.
(07:36):
hush hush.
Yeah, Sony would get upset.
I think I know the last thing I saw
you working on before this discussion. I
guess... I saw that thing about Lafondi recently... but
Smoke Show was the last thing I saw you trying to shop around.
Yes.
And that was with, ah, a Fortune Fiemster as one of the people who has
blown up since then.
I know, I know. We're not surprised at
(07:58):
all. I knew she, you know, you could tell, you could
tell how great she is. And a great improviser.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yeah, she was amazing. I mean, it is
really good. You know, we pitched it, but sometimes,
whatever the environment, the time,
who knows. But it didn't go. I pitched a lot of
stuff that hasn't gone, believe me.
But, that's the normal, isn't it?
(08:20):
Yes. Yeah.
Just throwing stuff.
Yeah. I mean, 10 Items or Less was our...
We sold it on our first pitch.
That's amazing. That never happens.
Never happens. And they bought it in the room.
And, so I thought, oh, this is easy.
And then as we got older, we realized, no, that was a,
(08:41):
that was an outlier event. yeah, you. But,
you know, I just love it.
I just love it.
Because you're creating these worlds and yeah,
of course I'd want to sell it and be able to explore them
further and shoot them and all of the fun of that.
But we always shoot a sizzle reel. We
always, you know, work with the, you know, in the
improv sort of vibe that we do.
(09:03):
And, and it's just a
great process. And really, you know, if you're
coming into the business and, you gotta, you got
to have scar tissue and be able to hang, for the
long run, you know, especially if you're trying to sell a
show, which is the hardest, stupidest
thing to try to do.
(09:23):
From an expert, folks.
Everybody thinks it's about the idea. You know, I have this great
idea and I'm like, okay... By the time you
pitch, all the ideas are great.
Everybody's ideas is great. That's taken for
granted. That's the base, you know.
Now what kind of person are you to work
(09:45):
with, you know, what kind of pedigree do you have? Can you give me
confidence that you'll come in on time, on budget, blah,
blah, blah. Ah, blah, blah.
Right. All the actual, like, all the work, part of the work
has to get it accounted for and speculated
at.
Yeah, yeah.
No. My friend George, who I talked to recently in
this same project that I'm doing, he
has done some short films and stuff like that and kind of like worked
(10:08):
towards, the angle you're doing, but at some point hit
the wall of frustration and had just
decided to like, back off. Until he
realized that, he had always understood the concept of never
write what you can't shoot. which is
huge. But then he found out that he
could hire comic artists and write whatever he wanted and they
could draw it. So now he's been doing that for years.
(10:30):
Wow, that's amazing. I love that. Yeah, he's
found his medium. that's so
great.
We were both talking about how the idea is the least important
part. Like, if you- right -only have one idea, it feels like the
most important part. But for anyone who's creative as
a way of being
the one idea just leads to the next, leads to the next, leads to the next. And
(10:51):
you just keep going until you find the one that clicks.
Exactly. So many people are worried about
getting ripped off. You know, they're always
like, "John, how do I protect my idea?" And I'm like,
"Look, you can't really."
Right.
Let's hope you get ripped off because that means somebody's
interested in it. Yeah. And you'll be protected to some
(11:12):
extent. But really what you always have,
is your brain. It's not the idea, it's
your brain that's able to create these ideas.
And who knows, if this is the idea that goes forth, maybe it will
be, maybe it won't. But yeah, I think new
people especially, and I did the same thing, get
very precious over an idea and
(11:33):
they hold it very tight and
I would... I would suggest just the opposite.
Let it, let it hang. Tell people about it,
get feedback. You know,
take advice, reject advice.
But, don't put too much on that first
idea you have because it's like
(11:54):
winning the lottery. You know, it's not how good it
is.
I do like that you hit both, take advice and reject
advice. Because, God, if I can't... The
number of projects I've had where, like, people are throwing
all this info and I have to like, pick and choose what makes sense,
knowing what the end result is. But I know some people who don't have that filter
and they'll take any advice just because of that lack of confidence.
(12:15):
And then they end up in the worst spot.
Yes. Yeah, that's the hardest
thing is, when you play. Like, I remember one
of the first shows, I was on this terrible show called
News Weasels... years and years ago, and
we had a, premiere party,
you know, at our house. We brought all of our friends
over to see it and I thought, oh,
(12:38):
this is going to be fun. And no, it wasn't
because everybody had an opinion and they thought, oh,
you should do this, and, oh, I like this. I didn't like that.
And I was just like, "Oh my God". so I never did that
again. By the time a show
premieres, and you probably know this too, you're
so tired of it. Like, I've seen every inch
(12:58):
footage a million times. I've done
multiple cuts, scripts, versions. You
know, by the time it airs, I'm sort of like, oh God,
---
I'm very much ready for something new
at that point.
It's like, oh, Jesus.
It was such a battle getting to this place, you
know, but.
No, I know a lot of creatives have this glitch where they do think
(13:20):
that, like, every idea has to be protected. Every idea has to be
precious. Heck. Even with, like, the watercolor kit project
that I've been doing, which is a manufacturing project, really, but...
It's so cool.
Thank you.
But there's still some innovation there. Like, everyone I've talked to is like,
"How do you make sure that you don't get ripped off?" Like, I don't.
I make sure that the quality hits the mark. I make sure I keep it to my
standards, and I hope that whoever does copy it
(13:43):
does a worse job. That's all I got.
That's all you ever had, you know, that's all you. it's not,
you know, and. And, yeah, it's not like this
is like you're... we let things go because
it's better for our mental health. It is. But
it's also. We let things go because we can't hold
on to them. You just can't do it. It's a losing battle.
(14:03):
Yeah. No, there's only so much you can control.
And being part of the
world, that's a very small thing of
where you can control. And you just got to stick to it. But.
Okay, so how do you keep yourself focused on
the next idea?
I'm good at, keeping, a few
(14:25):
plates spinning, and I don't know why, but I've
always been that way. so I kind of
triage. I have my number one
baby that I'm working the most on. In this case,
it's Lifandi. And then I have-
Which I do want to talk more about.
Okay. And then I have other... You know, my other
projects are in various stages of
(14:46):
incubation, you know, so it's kind of like,
a conveyor belt, you know, and. And
some things are further down and something. But
People are like, wow, how do you do that? And
how do you keep the quality up? But for me, it keeps me
excited and it also
allows me to, be open to
change as these things coming, you know,
(15:10):
which is the.
It's very hard, but it's huge. If you can remain flexible
because like, like you said, if you have multiple plate
spinning, even if you put the most work into one
project, if the, if one of the other ones suddenly
catches interest from somewhere, that you've got to be
on the pivot. Which it does.
And it, you know, things that I've done 10 years
(15:31):
ago that I thought were dead in the water. We
had a pitch, a thing that we did that, you know,
we pitched it around, everybody rejected it, and
then literally 10 years later, somebody from
MTV bought it outright. We didn't even
---
That's amazing.
We didn't even have to pitch, which is
crazy. so you never know. You just
(15:52):
never know.
That's... I love getting this perspective because I think
from the outside in, everyone thinks that there's this very strict
gatekeeping and structure and whatnot. And there's
all this like, this heavy concern
about like nepobabies coming in and just like jumping over
the lines. But I don't think they realize
how many of those people who
(16:14):
have that secret backdooor entrance, that we never see them go
in, we also never see them come out. Because it doesn't
work for them either. Right.
Because in the end it's got to work. And
in the end the machine has to run and, and
it's like starting up a startup company,
a TV show is like a startup company. You know, you
pitch it, you get the funding, and then it's something
(16:36):
that builds and grows over time,
hopefully, but they're very similar. I've talked to people
who do startups and it's like, oh my God, the mindset is
kind of the same. And like you're talking about with the paints, you
know, sort of this thing, you know,
you create it, you pitch it, you sell it,
distribute it, you know
with this, the, the other thing, and I think this goes back to
(16:58):
the advice thing actually is the number of people
who I had... because I was going into a
realm that I had no real experience with. and the number
of experts who were like, this is how this step works and
this is how you have to do this, and this is the only way to do this.
And every single time I would spend like three months
doing what they Said with no movement. And
then I would just be like, all right, let me try something that I
(17:20):
think just might work. And then that would be the thing that worked. And then they would
be confused. But it's. Every step has been
like this.
Well, and you're, you know, you're such a creative person. I
mean, you, you do a lot of different things, and
I think that gives you a perspective... and I can
relate. I think that gives you a different
perspective, on how to, attack
(17:41):
problems, you know, and it's not this kind
of linear... I met with an actor
once, and he was like, "I'm gonna do this and then
this is gonna happen. And I'm gonna do this and then this is gonna happen. And then
I'll be on Saturday Night Live." And I said, "Well, what if
you don't get cast?" I mean, you know, what if you don't get cast? And
he's like "..." it didn't compute to him because he's like,
(18:02):
"but I've done all these things."
Yeah, he just saw the dominoes as described.
I'm like, "dude, that all of that can
happen and you can still not get cast."
Yep. amazing.
So you have Lifandi going on.
Yes.
I saw the little, clip that you put out, sort
of playing with that. tell me
(18:23):
what's going on. What you can.
All right.
I don't want to get you in trouble.
Yes. right. so Lifandi is an
Icelandic word which means alive.
And essentially it's a grocery
store show. That's right.
it's another ... because for those don't know, you know,
10 Items or Less was a grocery store show. And
(18:44):
the CEO...
The CEO of Sony...
... the CEO of... The president of television of Sony, when we
made 10 Items or Less, is now the
CEO at a big studio. And he
came to me and said, "John, I've been thinking about you." And I was like,
what? Because I mean, this was like my bosses-bosses-bosses-boss
(19:04):
Like I met him
and he said, "Would you be interested in doing a
show in a grocery store?" And I was like,
"Another one?" Like I'm the grocery store
whisper. And then he said, "But I want to do it..."
and this was all his pitch.
"I want to do it in an Erewhon type grocery store." with
(19:24):
an Erewhon... I don't know. You guys don't. There's all different
kinds of them all over the country, different
brands. But the most extreme is this
grocery store called Erewhon, which is in LA, Which
is like you buy A pear for $16.
Right!?
Everything's non GMO, it's
ridiculous. The Kardashian shop there.
(19:45):
You know, it, like, it's just...
And so I went to thier stuff...
That hurts my brain.
I know. I went there and I was like, this is
hilarious. I was like, this is a really good idea.
Ah. And so I wrote it up and we have a
deal. And, we're gonna pitch it, in
February. but in the
interim, they've allowed me
(20:07):
to develop the show through
an Instagram account called @Lifandi.Groceries
So that is
it's been great
because I can bring in other people, I can shoot
scenes, I can throw them up, see how people like it.
Actors are allowed to,
create characters on the fly.
(20:28):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Creating this kind of world through
Instagram and TikTok. We have a TikTok account too.
And it's just... I love it.
I love it.
I absolutely adore
how you are with the people you work with.
Like, the number of people I know who collaborate with others
but try to over control stuff is weird to
(20:50):
me because the people I know who do the best work, and
you included, they get the right people
together, they set down the boundaries, and then they get out
of the way.
Yes. That has always been
my approach. I'm there. This is about
the improvisers or comedians or actors that we're
working with, and how do I create an
(21:11):
environment where they will do their best. Because
if do that, then... And that doesn't just
go for cast either. That goes for
camera, electric wardrobe,
makeup. just try to gear things
towards their talents rather than force
them to do what I'm
creating, you know?
(21:32):
Yeah. I think this goes back to that having, like, being too
precious with the idea, like having to, like having to feel
like you have a vision that must be adhered to when, like, you've
got really talented people who are trusting you...
trust them back and you'll get great stuff back every time.
Yeah, I mean, I think writers
especially have trouble seeing how
collaborative, film and television is.
(21:54):
You know, they're in their, in their world and they're on their
computer. And I do this too, where it's like, okay,
this is what I want to see happen. But then you've got
a hundred people that have to
actualize that, and you want all of
them to bring their talents because nobody's
in the film and TV business for the money. If you're in it for
the money. You're in the wrong business.
(22:17):
Everybody who's in it, even the, you know, gaffers,
and even, you know, people like that, the electricians, they
love it. They love making something, you
know.
No, even for them, like, there's a creativity to having solved the
problems they have to solve on the fly that gets stimulated in the
process.
Exactly. Well said. And. And that. And if
you can encourage that, it ricochets around the
(22:38):
whole crew and, in my opinion, makes the show
better.
Ricochet is the right word. I like that. I wouldn't have thought of that
one.
Yeah. The only rule I have on my set is you can't be a
jerk. If you're a jerk, you gotta go. And it's...
No offense, If that's the way you live life, that's
great, but it's not gonna work on our set. It just
isn't.
(22:59):
"If you're a jerk, you got to go. No offense."
Meanwhile - The jerk is very much "offense offense offense."
Being polite...
We had a... it was an electrician,
and came up to the hair person... I came
up. She was crying. I went up to get my hair,
and she was crying. I'm like, what's going on? And she had asked
for power. And the electrician that she
(23:21):
had asked to, like, was a real jerk to her and
just stupid. And so. And this
wasn't his first offense, but it was a bad one. He
really, was out of line, and so we fired him.
And the head of
the department said, hey, he wants to know if he
could talk to you guys. And so we said, yeah. And
(23:42):
he apologized, and no one had ever
called him out on that kind of behavior.
And then he was amazing. Like,
total. It was like Scrooge, you know, like, he
totally changed. and he was
great.
Very rare story. That is not...
Oh, no.
Nobody had ever told him, hey,
(24:04):
certain behavior is important in a
workplace. And I mean, now things have gotten so much
better, you know, with the culture of
film sets... gotten a lot better since Me Too
and Black Lives Matter. I think that
has changed a lot. And it's, still
far to go, but I've never seen as good as it
(24:24):
is now. Ever.
No. That's great. I love that you're also the person
who, like, lets everyone play, but will protect your people so they
can. Huge. That is less
common.
Bottom line. It's hard to be funny when someone's
a jerk.
Yeah. The other thing I want to spotlight is
there's. I don't remember. This might be an old
Japanese philosophy concept that I
(24:46):
remember absorbing at some point. I might be wrong, but, there was
the idea that, it's better to give a
second chance to a person who's made one mistake
than to kick them out and try to replace them with someone else
immediately who's never made a mistake. Because at least the person who's made a mistake
has potentially learned something. And
giving that person the second chance and then they just delivered
(25:06):
is wonderful to hear.
Now, there's many times when that hasn't happened, of
course, but that one did. And I've never
forgotten it. Yes. You know...
Lifandi... So I'm back in a grocery store, man.
I'm back inside a grocery store.
How does that feel? Is there any like, concerned about the
like, sense of repetition or is this just a new way to play with
(25:28):
ideas you didn't get to with 10 items or less?
You know, not at all. I mean, not even
for a minute have I thought it in that way. Because
idea is so different. It's so different.
The characters are all different. Yeah. The location
is the same. But you know, a location is not
a show. A lot of people think it is. "John. It'd be
(25:49):
funny to do a show in a factory."
Well, yeah, you need to make the... You can't make the
location a character just by saying what it is. That doesn't
work that way.
But so, you know, it doesn't
really matter because to me it's all. Whether it's a western,
whether it's in Jail, whether it's
whatever, it's, it's, it's always about
(26:10):
the characters and what's going on with them and the
repartee between them. So I love a grocery.
I love anything that's in the public domain. I
just love that because then you can have anybody
walk in. It just gives you a lot more options.
Yeah. You don't have to justify it if it's just a public space
like that, it's very casual, very easy to justify
(26:30):
anyone being there for any reason. I see it.
Yeah. And it's a place where we've all gone
and, and groceries being expensive is in the
news and is in the zeitgeist. So it kind
of fits. You know, we're all sort of saying like,
wait, why is an Apple
$9 or whatever? you know, and why
is that? We'like the smoothies.
(26:51):
Oh God.
Okay. Erewhon has a meat smoothie.
---
They have a smoothie that's meat.
Wasn't that a Ren & Stimpy joke
from like the mid-90s.
It's real. Isn't that
crazy? And it's $18.
I mean, if I can't write comedy around that, I'm done.
(27:14):
---
Honestly, the hardest part is the fact that it's too obscure
by nature.
I know. It's so ridiculous. It's
almost like Trump, you know, it's so ridiculous. You can't
really. You don't really have a lot to go with.
No, you have to ground it before you can bounce back up.
But, you know, this is a grocery store that is
(27:36):
kind of straddling those worlds. It was a regular grocery
store that now is trying to adapt
the whole foods on steroids kind
of, clientele.
Fantastic. Oh, I am so looking forward to hearing where
this goes.
Yeah, go to Instagram (@Lifandi.Groceries) I'm posting stuff pretty
all. Pretty much all the time. and I'm sharing it on my own
(27:57):
Instagram (@JohnCLehr) stuff. but yeah, all these
amazing, improv artists. and
a lot of names... a lot of people you recognize because you've seen
Quickdraw, right? But new people
too. I'm bringing in a lot of new people,
which is also love how loyal.
You are with the people you collaborated with in the past and making sure you give
them opportunities as you go forward. Like, not everyone
(28:19):
thinks to bring people with them.
O.
it's selfish. I know that they'll
deliver. I wish more people.
Kept that mindset though.
I mean, Bob Clendenin, who I put in everything, I've ever
done, is, a genius. I mean, he's just,
oh my God, it's so amazing. When we're editing, it's
like... we're looking for an out on the scene. Like "A Blow"
they call it, like a funny thing where you go out on a scene, it's
(28:41):
always, "what's Bob doing? What did Bob say?...
Go to Bob's camera."
On Quickdraw, like 90% of the time he's in a room,
he's the last word before you pop out.
If you look at my shows, I mean, he is
especially on the act breaks.
It's almost always Bob.
Just the weird thoughts he generates on the
fly. Milliseconds of genius in
(29:03):
frequent succession.
And a lovely, lovely man. Just great
to work with. Just, you know, totally pro,
you know, no it on time.
And he's been in everything, that guy.
I mean, I've definitely seen him around. I'm
always... just the number of times I've seen him and been like, oh. And
(29:23):
then it takes a little Too long. I'm like, right!
It's Bob. Yup. I mean, you
look at his resume, it's unreal.
It's unending. I know you have to go soon,
but is there anything that's been like, frustrating you that you want to hit on? Cause one
of the things I'm trying to unpack is like toxic hustle culture and
how to avoid that crud.
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, the
(29:45):
LA has been in, the Hollywood, the film and
TV business, not so the TV business, let's put
it that way, has been going
through a huge change. the
pandemic really shut things down,
obviously. And coming out of the pandemic,
there were two strikes.
SAG and the Riters Guild. I'm members of
(30:07):
both unions, but I. But
those strikes, no one could perceive this. But
those strikes combined, I think with the
pandemic combined with a third
element, which is that the streamer companies,
in my opinion, were managing things
poorly. They were going for big, big, big
time hits like Game of Thrones, but... Which
(30:29):
is fine, but they weren't nurturing other
shows along the right way, not building anything.
And so now... And they weren't making
money. You think like "Netflix wasn't making money?"
But you know, you look at these, you look at these
companies and when you get to the bottom
line, I mean the bottom line. they're losing
money. And because for every Game of Thrones it
(30:52):
goes, there's nine of them that cost a million billion
bucks that didn't go. And so I think the,
the shareholders who, you know,
you know, have now been like, okay, enough, it's time
to start. You look at like...
Discovery Purchased,
Oh yeah, the big like mergers and.
And they've just killed. They've fired 30% of
(31:12):
the executives.
They've shelled those two finished projects
just for the tax write off. Yeah.
Yep. So I think those three
combination of things has made it really,
really tough. I mean, I developed
Lifandi last summer and it's only
now that, I mean, nobody's buying
anything and it's really been kind of stuck.
(31:35):
And I don't think that will continue, but
it is sort of. It's. Yeah. So it's been
a really rough time. A lot of people not working.
A lot of people, especially on my level, not
the big time, A-Listers, but
the kind of medium level, has
really dissipated.
I am seeing a lot of like,
(31:57):
buzzing activity happening on the indie circuit lately as people
are looking for other ways to move
projects forward and express stuff because they don't want to be dealing with
these industry like
weird boxes anymore. But it's
true.
I mean it is, it is interesting. and
yeah, we've... My production company, we kind of have
feet in both worlds of like self
(32:20):
produced or branding or that kind of
stuff. And then we're still in the world of like pitching
to you know, studios and networks.
So how have you personally been keeping your head
clear with all this? Like, have you just been prioritizing interestingly?
Is it just picking your targets?
Like, you know, I've taken
(32:40):
jobs that I might not
have taken. But you know, the thing is like I
took a job for advertising and I gotta say
I really loved it... they just needed
me to write, you know, they just needed some funny stuff.
So I wrote for this huge
advertiser and it was really interesting.
Like the corporate culture, I don't really
(33:02):
experience that much so I loved that.
And then I've also been doing a lot of
Live performing.
Yeah, a lot.
And I mean Griffin, I could tour like
200 days a year if I wanted to. It's
insane. People really want live stuff.
Yeah, for sure.
(33:22):
And I've been doing internationally. I just
did Austria,
Bulgaria,
---
I know you're. I know you were doing the
Messing with Lehr
...thing. What else have you been touring?
That's it. That show. That show. We can tour it anywhere.
It's with Susan Messing who's also in Lifandi.
(33:45):
I've released a few cuts of her.
Wonderful.
She's a super talented improviser out of Chicago.
We I mean we're going back to
Norway. We're going to Switzerland.
Like there's. But there's also in the States
we're go goingna do a Midwest tour. I think like
Kansas City because that's where I'm from. St. Louis,
Austin and then some Southwest.
(34:07):
I'm not sure that...
And then Boston?
I would love to do. I would love
that... and see you again.
Yeah, no, I don't make it as far west as you very often.
I usually end up stopping at New York or Chicago these days.
But yes.
I'm trying to get over to Portland and Seattle for a couple things this year
So we'll see how that goes.
Oh yeah, we've done some dates in Seattle and Portland
(34:29):
As well.
Nice.
Yeah, there's a lot... people just want that stuff.
They just want it.
Yeah, no, there's a lot more. I think it's just that that
combination of people not getting good entertainment streamed to them
or like the stuff that's getting streamed is so like rapid fire that
it's, it's not as
appreciated, as enjoyed as, as
(34:50):
experienced. And then yah. Being bottled up from
the pandemic. That combination has really made
people want to see curated like really well put together live
things.
I agree with you 100%. yeah, I think being bottled
up in the pandemic was a lot of it. We kind of were all like
oh wow. Doing things like that is,
you know, you can't take it for granted. So yeah,
(35:11):
it. I've always wished
people could see what happens on the
set when we're improvising doing stuff
because the show of it so
fun too. Like the crew gets the best show because
they're seeing everything. Because it's different every
take, every.
Ah, yeah. No, I've always. I've not resented. That's not
(35:32):
the right word. I was always sad that you weren't releasing like
blooper reels stuff or like B roll stuff of
Quickdraw because I was always wondering like what other
lines didn't make the cut on that. I think I saw like one or two things that
did get released, but not...
Yeah, it's weird. The owners, you know, because
Hulu and TBA, they own the shows or
Sony. and so they. Yeah, I think
(35:54):
they, they're becoming more open
to releasing that stuff. But they want to
monetize everything. Yeah,
understandable.
But I don't think people understand that like sometimes
giving a taste away for free is
monetizing everything else. It's just weird.
They're precious.
Too precious.
I know, I know. And they're starting to see that
(36:17):
that's marketing. They're starting to see it as marketing. Like
stuff for free on YouTube is
marketing. But you know, it's hard to get these giant
companies to change their ways.
Yeah, no, I guess it is easier when you're only
making decisions one to one on, on the
spot.
right, right.
That person George, who does comic books, I will work comic cons with him
(36:38):
and he had brought up which I had kind of
forgotten that I did this. But if a show is going poorly and we're not like
getting a lot of customers or foot traffic and it's just like bad
energy all throughout the room. Instead... I used to mope
the first couple of years I would just like get... it would get into
me and then at some point it tilted and then I will
Just be like, okay, well now I'm just gonna like, give stuff. Like if someone walks by and
(36:59):
they seem excited but they're not buying, I'll just give them a thing like,
here, take it. It's. It's costing me a dollar for
the having printed it or for the bookmark. And like,
now you're happy and you're going to take that out there.
And maybe next year you come back with friends and then it turns
into that in the future.
But like, it builds your brand and it
yeah
And there's no reason to protect the stuff that's not selling. That didn't cost
(37:21):
me. Like, that's not where I'm... I've lost money on paying for the
table. So this is just stuff that like, is now
bogging me down. Might as well just make use of it.
Yeah. Then you don't have to carry it back to the car.
Yeah, that.
Who wins?
So where are you off to? Like, what you. What's. What's the next
(37:41):
thing you're doing? What's. What are you looking forward to most in the next moment?
I'm gonna shoot a little, another Lifandi
scene.
Cool.
That we're coming up on. And I'm going
to, Cleanson University.
Oh.
To scout and cast for a
student film that they want to do a
(38:01):
feature. And so I'm gonna
direct it and write it.
That's amazing.
Cast, you know, some students, some professional
actors and and then professional crew.
But also bring in student crew
so that they can learn.
So that's amazing.
Yeah. I cannot wait. It's gonna be so,
(38:22):
like, different, and fun.
it's a producer that I've worked with a, ton. And
he's now a professor there. And he said, hey,
this idea, do you want to do it?
I was like, okay, absolutely
brilliant.
I gotta write it, which sucks.
Is always. There is always the hard work next to the fun
(38:44):
work.
But I get so much done on the plane and I travel
so much now I can really jam stuff out on the plane.
I don't know why.
I'm on the train to New York tomorrow and I have like two
illustrations due for thing. I was like, I'll do the lines today and
then I'll just. I'll paint it on the train tomorrow and I'll have my little
kit there... and everyone will be looking at me like, how are you doing this on a
rocking train? I'm like, you just learn. You just learn.
(39:08):
I know. I'm that weird dude on the plane. Who's hunched over his
computer while everybody else is sleeping.
But there's no... Nobody bugs you.
Nobody texts.
You know, honestly, it's my favorite thing. Traveling, being in
airports. Cause there's nothing else I can do but whatever I
want. There's no intrusive thought that can take me in a different direction.
It's just what's there.
(39:30):
it's a prison of your making.
Yeah, I'm only
capped by what I've brought with me.
well, thank you so much for sitting down with me and chatting. This has
been hugely helpful.
Thank you for having me, Griffin. You're such a great person.
I just love the way you think and... I'm a
fan.
(39:52):
That is very kind of you to say,
but I'll let you get back to what you're doing and.
All right.
I'll might bring you back later for a follow up in the
future. But otherwise keep me posted on what's going on.
Okay. Who's paying for the coffee? Me or...
I'll take care. I got it. Okay. I know the barista.
(40:21):
God, I love talking to John. there is
never a point of a conversation with him where I am bored, where
I'm not smiling or laughing.
It's insane.
it looked like you were having a good time.
Yeah, I.
He makes it very easy to be comfortable
in the conversation no matter what. And it's.
(40:43):
I can see why he... His charisma
clearly is a big value add for a lot of what he does.
But I definitely came away with some interesting stuff because
neither you or I really have a
TV adjacent
production knowledge or like that's not our
method of anything. No.
(41:05):
But on your point of focus,
before he and I started chatting, he did
go into the idea of like it did end up being mostly with the
actors it seemed where when he
is going into a project he does try to bring people with him and
he specifically, he specifically named dropped Bob (Clendenin)
who I think I have seen him work with in every project
(41:26):
that I've watched him do. And
it clearly for good reason. Like he just
delivers and he always hits the like
tone and the awkwardness that he's aiming for. He's got that kind of
slapsticky vibe to himself as an actor
and it makes perfect sense.
But I did love that he... John does have a
(41:46):
focal value on... If you've worked with good
people, keep working with those people as
long as they'll come with you. And
I, as someone who as you've seen will try to drag People
from project to project,
Present company definitely include. Yeah.
Then, yeah, no, once you. Once you have a good rappprt
(42:08):
with someone like that is invaluable in my
opinion. And I was happy to see that reflected in
John's mindset. But it was a little
daunting to hear how abnormal that sounded like it
was.
Yeah, I mean, there's a.
I think a difference somewhere. There's a
line between knowing good people
(42:28):
and continuing to work with them and just like outright
harmful cronyism.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a tricky balance to find.
Like, sometimes, like, especially in the
professional sphere for a paid gig, it
can sting to see that it went to
somebody's best friend instead of
(42:50):
an actor that you know and like, or even
yourself. But
in, like, academic theater
or in just fun projects that
you're doing, I think having
a network of people you're friends with,
but also people that you can really trust on a
professional level is really important. Like,
(43:12):
I'm helping out one of my friends with her senior
thesis and something
that she kept reiterating to me as she
was, like, asking me to do her this favor,
which I don't consider it a favor. I'm super excited that
I get to do this because she's brilliant. but something that she kept
reiterating to me was that she has a lot
(43:32):
of trust in my ability as an actor
and my, like, level of professionalism.
And she has absolute
faith in me to be able to do her main
character justice. Like, that just means the
world.
That's amazing. Those are the moments that, like,
can carry you forever.
Yeah, absolutely.
(43:54):
There is something John specifically hit the point
of in, at least in the TV world, in the
production cycle, in the way that, like, it has to move through certain chains
and gates before it becomes an actual thing.
While you will have someone who
gets a roll or gets their foot in the door
because they know someone or because they're related, to this person.
(44:15):
Somebody called in a favor. There is a little
bit more in that machine, which probably
has something to do with the corporate construct of it. But if
you can't deliver once you're there, then
a lot of those advantages end up useless.
Obviously, like, we see from the outside stuff that
gets, published, produced,
circulated,
(44:38):
like, Like M. Night Shyamalan recently put
his daughter in a project and like, literally made the
project to focus on her. And there was a lot of
criticism because people didn't think that she did
fulfill the requirements.
And that's gotta be really rough. But, like, in Most
multi faceted systems where it's not just
(44:58):
essentially a vanity project being put together by somebody
in the industry, there are a little bit more
buffers and gates to keep that from ending up as the
end result.
It's interesting I don't
have a direct point of reference for what you're talking
about so purely from the information you've given me,
I think it's interesting that people
(45:19):
are talking about this person
not being able to fulfill the requirements of the role
when according to the information that you
gave, it was made for them.
Yeah, it's very interestingly weird that
like criticism is directly in
face of both intention and
control.
(45:40):
I mean audience is gonna audience.
But yes. Patrick (H) Willems who does a
fantastic YouTube channel, did
a episode kind of teaching people how
film criticism... like a nice beginner crash
course for talking about films and
there was definitely a focal point...
(46:00):
Critics or audiences trying to
take a critical perspective against
a work because it's not what they thought
it was going to be is very different than considering
the intention of the project and what they were
trying for.
I think that's an important thing to learn especially as
a creative yourself...
(46:22):
general you... not a specific call out...
especially in creative fields, strong opinions
form and it's difficult but it is a
reckoning you have to have of like some
things just aren't for you.
Sometimes you're gonna hate a thing and that
doesn't make it bad. And
(46:42):
even if it is bad you can still
dislike it for you know,
superficial reasons and not because it is
not high up.
I like when you do the other voices. one of my exes,
a ... point of contention I would repeatedly trigger
in her was if we were watching a movie
(47:04):
together I would sometimes just make a
noise like "Ohh?" And she would think that I
was criticizing it in a dislike
way and I'm like No, no. Like you're a
scientist and if you saw someone trying to solve a
problem, you'd still notice what they did
different than what you would have done. That's not you saying they're
doing it wrong necessarily. This is the same thing. I
(47:26):
write stories. I didn't think that was going toa be the payoff to
that like setup. And yeah, she would get
really aggravated with me and just would not accept that
I was not... She was just stuck on thinking I hated things that she wanted
me to like.
I'm trying to think if I have something about like
I don't think I do.
That's fair.
(47:48):
Like I've griped enough. I don't need to complain
again.
But no, overall, it is just
nice to see that there are collaborative standards and there
are people who, who are operating in these roles
of kind of leading projects where they are
taking everyone into consideration in the way these projects work
and making sure that everyone feels valued and gets the shine.
(48:10):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think
it's very meaningful and it's also a great
way to build a network. It's a great way to
make yourself somebody who is loved in what
you do if you are clearly
careful about your people.
Yeah. Yeah. So
that being said, if there's anything you ever need,
(48:32):
remember to let me know.
I know I have promised.
I got you.
Well, I have my third ever bartending shift in
just a half hour or so, so I gotta go
brush up on my classic cocktails.
I'm very excited that the long con I've been playing
at my big adult job has finally panned out and now I'm
(48:53):
on the bartender list.
I am so happy you finally got there because I know you were kind
of excited about the concept for a while and I'm a little
envious.
I've been planting seeds
for as long as I have worked there.
Go have fun slinging drinks. I will talk to you next time.
Sounds good.
(49:37):
Likey - Hey Archer- there's a saf - Sorry -
- Oh Sorry -
And that's the end of the conversation for the day!
That's all, folks.
If you enjoyed this episode, we have plenty
more and you're encouraged to subscribe or follow.
(49:57):
If you're curious, head to
shadedareas.com for more information
about the show and other projects related to us.
If you're generous, head over to
patreon.com/createartrepeat where you can support
the show. Thanks for listening and until
next time, stay thoughtful, stay
playful, and keep creating.
you know, I do some voice acting stuff.
Yes.
And I did get a gig of doing a
kids book, so- That's really fun. It
is. I'm using the technique you
taught me for D&D stuff, but it
has been a challenge.
I love my D&D NPC voice
tracker spreadsheet format. It makes
(00:26):
me very happy. I'm also very happy that
it's worked out for you in your own way. Because I know that I had
to explain like how I went
about filling it out a couple of times in like a different
way for you to really click into
it.
But yeah, this has been fun.
(00:47):
John is a actor,
TV producer. does a lot of improv based
performances, a lot of off the cuff stuff. So even his TV
shows, it was just, here's what we're trying to do
here's the start of the scene, here's the end we're trying to get
... everyone just go. And they would just do takes
and takes and takes and pick whatever one did the
best fit together. And that was the
(01:10):
whole process. the one that I fell in love with was called
Quickdraw, but uh, Geico Caveman?
Probably before your time, actually.
Okay. If it was before the lizard, then yes, before my
time.
Gotcha. I'm
glad he was willing to do this chat with me. I am really looking
to unpack his collaborative concepts on
creativity and like how
(01:33):
systems of collaboration and production
and like getting complicated projects from one end into the other
work. I'm not sure where the conversation's gonna
go.
Sounds like it's gonna be an interesting one no matter what.
I can't imagine it won't be. So. He's gonna be here soon
and I know what I'm gonna try to talk
to him about. But I have gotten very
(01:53):
comfortable asking you what you would like to know.
Oh this is a tough one because I
have less personal
relation to like anything close to
TV producing, I guess. You said
he's prolific and like works on a bunch of different stuff, I think.
I'm curious if there's
consistency in the people he works with. Like
(02:16):
does he have a go to crew or is
it a find new people for
whatever project is appropriate and stuff like that.
Gotcha. On, the outward facing side, like the
performance side, there's a lot of overlap with his people he's
worked with, but who you're allowed to bring in... crew
stuff, I don't know. I'll try to get to unpack some of that.
Cool.
(02:37):
All right. My mug's dry. I'M gonna go solve that
and I'll chat with you in 40-45 i think...
maybe a little less.
Sounds good. Looking forward to it.
(02:57):
John! good to see you. Thanks for coming over for this.
Oh, My pleasure, man. It's good to see you, Griffin
I think the last time I saw you in person
was at your BU Lecture where I did the illustration of you from the
audience.
Yes. Which was amazing and
then we saw each other afterwards, right?
Did you come-
Yeah, we went to the Cantina after.
(03:17):
Yeah, that was great. yeah, sorry, I did
a lot of drugs in the 90s, Griffin. It's amazing that I can
remember anything at all.
Right, that was part of the lecture you
gave.
Yeah, yeah. I've now been sober
for 29 years. Can you believe it?
It's absolutely amazing. And congratulations on that. Glad to hear you re coming
up on 30.
(03:39):
Thank you. Yeah, I'd love to take credit for
it, but, you know, the further
away I get from that day of first getting sober, the
less I think I had anything to do with it.
I mean, that's fair. Support systems
and having the right people with you to check you is kind
of the most important part.
Yeah, it really is. It really is
(04:00):
So you're well into that
Intro to Anthro with 2 Humans
podcast.
Yes, that is a
Intro to Anthro with 2 Humans
is a podcast I do with my, old friend
John McCray, who's an anthropologist now.
So we discuss anthropology issues. But
obviously, since I'm involved, it has a
(04:22):
comedic bend to it and he's a
really funny guy. I mean, he... Yeah,
so, yeah, we just did our 70th
episode and you know, we have a
growing group, of listeners who
are very committed to it
and suggest topics. And we've done that
great, tons of great topics. Anything from
(04:44):
like, you know,
anthropological issues of prehistoric
time to current, issues and
things like sleep and things like anything that
affects the human, is really, it's
cool. It's really neat. It's fascinating. I learn a
ton from it because it's, while it's loose and funny,
it's very, well, you know, researched.
(05:05):
Oh, yeah, no, but the way you two play off each other.
Absolutely love it every time.
Yeah, me too.
And I saw that 10 Items or Less made a
Jeopardy appearance days ago
(at time of discussion)
My life is now complete. yes,
10 Items or Less, which is that show I did for
TBS back in the Day, was a question
(05:28):
on Jeopardy. It was amazing and they even showed
it was 1200 level question too
which was great. Wasn't a daily double but
that-
Little screenshot of you all.
Yeah. They showed a picture of the cast
and my phone just immediately blew
up as everybody was like "Oh my God"
those Jeopardy junkies out there.
(05:50):
Oh yeah.
But it was. I gotta say that was pretty cool.
That's neat. Definitely one of those little
zeitgeist benchmark bucket list moments.
One of the guys who emailed me or
texted me first was Jack
who is the owner of the store that
we shot in and -that's
(06:11):
amazing- He was so happy and it was just
so funny to talk to him again because we shot...
When we shot that show the store was open
for business while we shot.
Oh wow.
Yeah. Ah. So all the extras are mostly ...
occasionally we'd hire... but most of the extras in the
show are real people that are just
---
(06:32):
Amazing what you can do when you need to just to make a project like
that come together.
They made it so much more fun because otherwise we would have had
to rent the store and shoot at night and...
Right.
That's just a- no
it changes everything.
Yes. It's hard to be funny at
4:30 in the morning, you know.
No, but that was one of your shows that I never, I had never
(06:53):
been able to get into becausee I couldn't find it in anyplace. I had found you
obviously through a Quickdraw and just falling in love with that
way... when it came out like from the day one I was just like oh, I live
here now. Yeah. Now 10 Items or Less
being on Roku I was able to catch up and then like right
at... I think I finished it like a week or two ago and
then Jeopardy you post-
(07:14):
Maybe you caused it.
Maybe it was your energy. There's a third
series that I did called Jailbait which
is very difficult to find but I can I can send
you a link on the down on the DL. It's our...
It was our attempt at rated R
-Oh- and it. It's
crazy.
I would love that but I will definitely keep it.
(07:36):
hush hush.
Yeah, Sony would get upset.
I think I know the last thing I saw
you working on before this discussion. I
guess... I saw that thing about Lafondi recently... but
Smoke Show was the last thing I saw you trying to shop around.
Yes.
And that was with, ah, a Fortune Fiemster as one of the people who has
blown up since then.
I know, I know. We're not surprised at
(07:58):
all. I knew she, you know, you could tell, you could
tell how great she is. And a great improviser.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yeah, she was amazing. I mean, it is
really good. You know, we pitched it, but sometimes,
whatever the environment, the time,
who knows. But it didn't go. I pitched a lot of
stuff that hasn't gone, believe me.
But, that's the normal, isn't it?
(08:20):
Yes. Yeah.
Just throwing stuff.
Yeah. I mean, 10 Items or Less was our...
We sold it on our first pitch.
That's amazing. That never happens.
Never happens. And they bought it in the room.
And, so I thought, oh, this is easy.
And then as we got older, we realized, no, that was a,
(08:41):
that was an outlier event. yeah, you. But,
you know, I just love it.
I just love it.
Because you're creating these worlds and yeah,
of course I'd want to sell it and be able to explore them
further and shoot them and all of the fun of that.
But we always shoot a sizzle reel. We
always, you know, work with the, you know, in the
improv sort of vibe that we do.
(09:03):
And, and it's just a
great process. And really, you know, if you're
coming into the business and, you gotta, you got
to have scar tissue and be able to hang, for the
long run, you know, especially if you're trying to sell a
show, which is the hardest, stupidest
thing to try to do.
(09:23):
From an expert, folks.
Everybody thinks it's about the idea. You know, I have this great
idea and I'm like, okay... By the time you
pitch, all the ideas are great.
Everybody's ideas is great. That's taken for
granted. That's the base, you know.
Now what kind of person are you to work
(09:45):
with, you know, what kind of pedigree do you have? Can you give me
confidence that you'll come in on time, on budget, blah,
blah, blah. Ah, blah, blah.
Right. All the actual, like, all the work, part of the work
has to get it accounted for and speculated
at.
Yeah, yeah.
No. My friend George, who I talked to recently in
this same project that I'm doing, he
has done some short films and stuff like that and kind of like worked
(10:08):
towards, the angle you're doing, but at some point hit
the wall of frustration and had just
decided to like, back off. Until he
realized that, he had always understood the concept of never
write what you can't shoot. which is
huge. But then he found out that he
could hire comic artists and write whatever he wanted and they
could draw it. So now he's been doing that for years.
(10:30):
Wow, that's amazing. I love that. Yeah, he's
found his medium. that's so
great.
We were both talking about how the idea is the least important
part. Like, if you- right -only have one idea, it feels like the
most important part. But for anyone who's creative as
a way of being
the one idea just leads to the next, leads to the next, leads to the next. And
(10:51):
you just keep going until you find the one that clicks.
Exactly. So many people are worried about
getting ripped off. You know, they're always
like, "John, how do I protect my idea?" And I'm like,
"Look, you can't really."
Right.
Let's hope you get ripped off because that means somebody's
interested in it. Yeah. And you'll be protected to some
(11:12):
extent. But really what you always have,
is your brain. It's not the idea, it's
your brain that's able to create these ideas.
And who knows, if this is the idea that goes forth, maybe it will
be, maybe it won't. But yeah, I think new
people especially, and I did the same thing, get
very precious over an idea and
(11:33):
they hold it very tight and
I would... I would suggest just the opposite.
Let it, let it hang. Tell people about it,
get feedback. You know,
take advice, reject advice.
But, don't put too much on that first
idea you have because it's like
(11:54):
winning the lottery. You know, it's not how good it
is.
I do like that you hit both, take advice and reject
advice. Because, God, if I can't... The
number of projects I've had where, like, people are throwing
all this info and I have to like, pick and choose what makes sense,
knowing what the end result is. But I know some people who don't have that filter
and they'll take any advice just because of that lack of confidence.
(12:15):
And then they end up in the worst spot.
Yes. Yeah, that's the hardest
thing is, when you play. Like, I remember one
of the first shows, I was on this terrible show called
News Weasels... years and years ago, and
we had a, premiere party,
you know, at our house. We brought all of our friends
over to see it and I thought, oh,
(12:38):
this is going to be fun. And no, it wasn't
because everybody had an opinion and they thought, oh,
you should do this, and, oh, I like this. I didn't like that.
And I was just like, "Oh my God". so I never did that
again. By the time a show
premieres, and you probably know this too, you're
so tired of it. Like, I've seen every inch
(12:58):
footage a million times. I've done
multiple cuts, scripts, versions. You
know, by the time it airs, I'm sort of like, oh God,
---
I'm very much ready for something new
at that point.
It's like, oh, Jesus.
It was such a battle getting to this place, you
know, but.
No, I know a lot of creatives have this glitch where they do think
(13:20):
that, like, every idea has to be protected. Every idea has to be
precious. Heck. Even with, like, the watercolor kit project
that I've been doing, which is a manufacturing project, really, but...
It's so cool.
Thank you.
But there's still some innovation there. Like, everyone I've talked to is like,
"How do you make sure that you don't get ripped off?" Like, I don't.
I make sure that the quality hits the mark. I make sure I keep it to my
standards, and I hope that whoever does copy it
(13:43):
does a worse job. That's all I got.
That's all you ever had, you know, that's all you. it's not,
you know, and. And, yeah, it's not like this
is like you're... we let things go because
it's better for our mental health. It is. But
it's also. We let things go because we can't hold
on to them. You just can't do it. It's a losing battle.
(14:03):
Yeah. No, there's only so much you can control.
And being part of the
world, that's a very small thing of
where you can control. And you just got to stick to it. But.
Okay, so how do you keep yourself focused on
the next idea?
I'm good at, keeping, a few
(14:25):
plates spinning, and I don't know why, but I've
always been that way. so I kind of
triage. I have my number one
baby that I'm working the most on. In this case,
it's Lifandi. And then I have-
Which I do want to talk more about.
Okay. And then I have other... You know, my other
projects are in various stages of
(14:46):
incubation, you know, so it's kind of like,
a conveyor belt, you know, and. And
some things are further down and something. But
People are like, wow, how do you do that? And
how do you keep the quality up? But for me, it keeps me
excited and it also
allows me to, be open to
change as these things coming, you know,
(15:10):
which is the.
It's very hard, but it's huge. If you can remain flexible
because like, like you said, if you have multiple plate
spinning, even if you put the most work into one
project, if the, if one of the other ones suddenly
catches interest from somewhere, that you've got to be
on the pivot. Which it does.
And it, you know, things that I've done 10 years
(15:31):
ago that I thought were dead in the water. We
had a pitch, a thing that we did that, you know,
we pitched it around, everybody rejected it, and
then literally 10 years later, somebody from
MTV bought it outright. We didn't even
---
That's amazing.
We didn't even have to pitch, which is
crazy. so you never know. You just
(15:52):
never know.
That's... I love getting this perspective because I think
from the outside in, everyone thinks that there's this very strict
gatekeeping and structure and whatnot. And there's
all this like, this heavy concern
about like nepobabies coming in and just like jumping over
the lines. But I don't think they realize
how many of those people who
(16:14):
have that secret backdooor entrance, that we never see them go
in, we also never see them come out. Because it doesn't
work for them either. Right.
Because in the end it's got to work. And
in the end the machine has to run and, and
it's like starting up a startup company,
a TV show is like a startup company. You know, you
pitch it, you get the funding, and then it's something
(16:36):
that builds and grows over time,
hopefully, but they're very similar. I've talked to people
who do startups and it's like, oh my God, the mindset is
kind of the same. And like you're talking about with the paints, you
know, sort of this thing, you know,
you create it, you pitch it, you sell it,
distribute it, you know
with this, the, the other thing, and I think this goes back to
(16:58):
the advice thing actually is the number of people
who I had... because I was going into a
realm that I had no real experience with. and the number
of experts who were like, this is how this step works and
this is how you have to do this, and this is the only way to do this.
And every single time I would spend like three months
doing what they Said with no movement. And
then I would just be like, all right, let me try something that I
(17:20):
think just might work. And then that would be the thing that worked. And then they would
be confused. But it's. Every step has been
like this.
Well, and you're, you know, you're such a creative person. I
mean, you, you do a lot of different things, and
I think that gives you a perspective... and I can
relate. I think that gives you a different
perspective, on how to, attack
(17:41):
problems, you know, and it's not this kind
of linear... I met with an actor
once, and he was like, "I'm gonna do this and then
this is gonna happen. And I'm gonna do this and then this is gonna happen. And then
I'll be on Saturday Night Live." And I said, "Well, what if
you don't get cast?" I mean, you know, what if you don't get cast? And
he's like "..." it didn't compute to him because he's like,
(18:02):
"but I've done all these things."
Yeah, he just saw the dominoes as described.
I'm like, "dude, that all of that can
happen and you can still not get cast."
Yep. amazing.
So you have Lifandi going on.
Yes.
I saw the little, clip that you put out, sort
of playing with that. tell me
(18:23):
what's going on. What you can.
All right.
I don't want to get you in trouble.
Yes. right. so Lifandi is an
Icelandic word which means alive.
And essentially it's a grocery
store show. That's right.
it's another ... because for those don't know, you know,
10 Items or Less was a grocery store show. And
(18:44):
the CEO...
The CEO of Sony...
... the CEO of... The president of television of Sony, when we
made 10 Items or Less, is now the
CEO at a big studio. And he
came to me and said, "John, I've been thinking about you." And I was like,
what? Because I mean, this was like my bosses-bosses-bosses-boss
(19:04):
Like I met him
and he said, "Would you be interested in doing a
show in a grocery store?" And I was like,
"Another one?" Like I'm the grocery store
whisper. And then he said, "But I want to do it..."
and this was all his pitch.
"I want to do it in an Erewhon type grocery store." with
(19:24):
an Erewhon... I don't know. You guys don't. There's all different
kinds of them all over the country, different
brands. But the most extreme is this
grocery store called Erewhon, which is in LA, Which
is like you buy A pear for $16.
Right!?
Everything's non GMO, it's
ridiculous. The Kardashian shop there.
(19:45):
You know, it, like, it's just...
And so I went to thier stuff...
That hurts my brain.
I know. I went there and I was like, this is
hilarious. I was like, this is a really good idea.
Ah. And so I wrote it up and we have a
deal. And, we're gonna pitch it, in
February. but in the
interim, they've allowed me
(20:07):
to develop the show through
an Instagram account called @Lifandi.Groceries
So that is
it's been great
because I can bring in other people, I can shoot
scenes, I can throw them up, see how people like it.
Actors are allowed to,
create characters on the fly.
(20:28):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Creating this kind of world through
Instagram and TikTok. We have a TikTok account too.
And it's just... I love it.
I love it.
I absolutely adore
how you are with the people you work with.
Like, the number of people I know who collaborate with others
but try to over control stuff is weird to
(20:50):
me because the people I know who do the best work, and
you included, they get the right people
together, they set down the boundaries, and then they get out
of the way.
Yes. That has always been
my approach. I'm there. This is about
the improvisers or comedians or actors that we're
working with, and how do I create an
(21:11):
environment where they will do their best. Because
if do that, then... And that doesn't just
go for cast either. That goes for
camera, electric wardrobe,
makeup. just try to gear things
towards their talents rather than force
them to do what I'm
creating, you know?
(21:32):
Yeah. I think this goes back to that having, like, being too
precious with the idea, like having to, like having to feel
like you have a vision that must be adhered to when, like, you've
got really talented people who are trusting you...
trust them back and you'll get great stuff back every time.
Yeah, I mean, I think writers
especially have trouble seeing how
collaborative, film and television is.
(21:54):
You know, they're in their, in their world and they're on their
computer. And I do this too, where it's like, okay,
this is what I want to see happen. But then you've got
a hundred people that have to
actualize that, and you want all of
them to bring their talents because nobody's
in the film and TV business for the money. If you're in it for
the money. You're in the wrong business.
(22:17):
Everybody who's in it, even the, you know, gaffers,
and even, you know, people like that, the electricians, they
love it. They love making something, you
know.
No, even for them, like, there's a creativity to having solved the
problems they have to solve on the fly that gets stimulated in the
process.
Exactly. Well said. And. And that. And if
you can encourage that, it ricochets around the
(22:38):
whole crew and, in my opinion, makes the show
better.
Ricochet is the right word. I like that. I wouldn't have thought of that
one.
Yeah. The only rule I have on my set is you can't be a
jerk. If you're a jerk, you gotta go. And it's...
No offense, If that's the way you live life, that's
great, but it's not gonna work on our set. It just
isn't.
(22:59):
"If you're a jerk, you got to go. No offense."
Meanwhile - The jerk is very much "offense offense offense."
Being polite...
We had a... it was an electrician,
and came up to the hair person... I came
up. She was crying. I went up to get my hair,
and she was crying. I'm like, what's going on? And she had asked
for power. And the electrician that she
(23:21):
had asked to, like, was a real jerk to her and
just stupid. And so. And this
wasn't his first offense, but it was a bad one. He
really, was out of line, and so we fired him.
And the head of
the department said, hey, he wants to know if he
could talk to you guys. And so we said, yeah. And
(23:42):
he apologized, and no one had ever
called him out on that kind of behavior.
And then he was amazing. Like,
total. It was like Scrooge, you know, like, he
totally changed. and he was
great.
Very rare story. That is not...
Oh, no.
Nobody had ever told him, hey,
(24:04):
certain behavior is important in a
workplace. And I mean, now things have gotten so much
better, you know, with the culture of
film sets... gotten a lot better since Me Too
and Black Lives Matter. I think that
has changed a lot. And it's, still
far to go, but I've never seen as good as it
(24:24):
is now. Ever.
No. That's great. I love that you're also the person
who, like, lets everyone play, but will protect your people so they
can. Huge. That is less
common.
Bottom line. It's hard to be funny when someone's
a jerk.
Yeah. The other thing I want to spotlight is
there's. I don't remember. This might be an old
Japanese philosophy concept that I
(24:46):
remember absorbing at some point. I might be wrong, but, there was
the idea that, it's better to give a
second chance to a person who's made one mistake
than to kick them out and try to replace them with someone else
immediately who's never made a mistake. Because at least the person who's made a mistake
has potentially learned something. And
giving that person the second chance and then they just delivered
(25:06):
is wonderful to hear.
Now, there's many times when that hasn't happened, of
course, but that one did. And I've never
forgotten it. Yes. You know...
Lifandi... So I'm back in a grocery store, man.
I'm back inside a grocery store.
How does that feel? Is there any like, concerned about the
like, sense of repetition or is this just a new way to play with
(25:28):
ideas you didn't get to with 10 items or less?
You know, not at all. I mean, not even
for a minute have I thought it in that way. Because
idea is so different. It's so different.
The characters are all different. Yeah. The location
is the same. But you know, a location is not
a show. A lot of people think it is. "John. It'd be
(25:49):
funny to do a show in a factory."
Well, yeah, you need to make the... You can't make the
location a character just by saying what it is. That doesn't
work that way.
But so, you know, it doesn't
really matter because to me it's all. Whether it's a western,
whether it's in Jail, whether it's
whatever, it's, it's, it's always about
(26:10):
the characters and what's going on with them and the
repartee between them. So I love a grocery.
I love anything that's in the public domain. I
just love that because then you can have anybody
walk in. It just gives you a lot more options.
Yeah. You don't have to justify it if it's just a public space
like that, it's very casual, very easy to justify
(26:30):
anyone being there for any reason. I see it.
Yeah. And it's a place where we've all gone
and, and groceries being expensive is in the
news and is in the zeitgeist. So it kind
of fits. You know, we're all sort of saying like,
wait, why is an Apple
$9 or whatever? you know, and why
is that? We'like the smoothies.
(26:51):
Oh God.
Okay. Erewhon has a meat smoothie.
---
They have a smoothie that's meat.
Wasn't that a Ren & Stimpy joke
from like the mid-90s.
It's real. Isn't that
crazy? And it's $18.
I mean, if I can't write comedy around that, I'm done.
(27:14):
---
Honestly, the hardest part is the fact that it's too obscure
by nature.
I know. It's so ridiculous. It's
almost like Trump, you know, it's so ridiculous. You can't
really. You don't really have a lot to go with.
No, you have to ground it before you can bounce back up.
But, you know, this is a grocery store that is
(27:36):
kind of straddling those worlds. It was a regular grocery
store that now is trying to adapt
the whole foods on steroids kind
of, clientele.
Fantastic. Oh, I am so looking forward to hearing where
this goes.
Yeah, go to Instagram (@Lifandi.Groceries) I'm posting stuff pretty
all. Pretty much all the time. and I'm sharing it on my own
(27:57):
Instagram (@JohnCLehr) stuff. but yeah, all these
amazing, improv artists. and
a lot of names... a lot of people you recognize because you've seen
Quickdraw, right? But new people
too. I'm bringing in a lot of new people,
which is also love how loyal.
You are with the people you collaborated with in the past and making sure you give
them opportunities as you go forward. Like, not everyone
(28:19):
thinks to bring people with them.
O.
it's selfish. I know that they'll
deliver. I wish more people.
Kept that mindset though.
I mean, Bob Clendenin, who I put in everything, I've ever
done, is, a genius. I mean, he's just,
oh my God, it's so amazing. When we're editing, it's
like... we're looking for an out on the scene. Like "A Blow"
they call it, like a funny thing where you go out on a scene, it's
(28:41):
always, "what's Bob doing? What did Bob say?...
Go to Bob's camera."
On Quickdraw, like 90% of the time he's in a room,
he's the last word before you pop out.
If you look at my shows, I mean, he is
especially on the act breaks.
It's almost always Bob.
Just the weird thoughts he generates on the
fly. Milliseconds of genius in
(29:03):
frequent succession.
And a lovely, lovely man. Just great
to work with. Just, you know, totally pro,
you know, no it on time.
And he's been in everything, that guy.
I mean, I've definitely seen him around. I'm
always... just the number of times I've seen him and been like, oh. And
(29:23):
then it takes a little Too long. I'm like, right!
It's Bob. Yup. I mean, you
look at his resume, it's unreal.
It's unending. I know you have to go soon,
but is there anything that's been like, frustrating you that you want to hit on? Cause one
of the things I'm trying to unpack is like toxic hustle culture and
how to avoid that crud.
Well, yeah, I mean, you know, the
(29:45):
LA has been in, the Hollywood, the film and
TV business, not so the TV business, let's put
it that way, has been going
through a huge change. the
pandemic really shut things down,
obviously. And coming out of the pandemic,
there were two strikes.
SAG and the Riters Guild. I'm members of
(30:07):
both unions, but I. But
those strikes, no one could perceive this. But
those strikes combined, I think with the
pandemic combined with a third
element, which is that the streamer companies,
in my opinion, were managing things
poorly. They were going for big, big, big
time hits like Game of Thrones, but... Which
(30:29):
is fine, but they weren't nurturing other
shows along the right way, not building anything.
And so now... And they weren't making
money. You think like "Netflix wasn't making money?"
But you know, you look at these, you look at these
companies and when you get to the bottom
line, I mean the bottom line. they're losing
money. And because for every Game of Thrones it
(30:52):
goes, there's nine of them that cost a million billion
bucks that didn't go. And so I think the,
the shareholders who, you know,
you know, have now been like, okay, enough, it's time
to start. You look at like...
Discovery Purchased,
Oh yeah, the big like mergers and.
And they've just killed. They've fired 30% of
(31:12):
the executives.
They've shelled those two finished projects
just for the tax write off. Yeah.
Yep. So I think those three
combination of things has made it really,
really tough. I mean, I developed
Lifandi last summer and it's only
now that, I mean, nobody's buying
anything and it's really been kind of stuck.
(31:35):
And I don't think that will continue, but
it is sort of. It's. Yeah. So it's been
a really rough time. A lot of people not working.
A lot of people, especially on my level, not
the big time, A-Listers, but
the kind of medium level, has
really dissipated.
I am seeing a lot of like,
(31:57):
buzzing activity happening on the indie circuit lately as people
are looking for other ways to move
projects forward and express stuff because they don't want to be dealing with
these industry like
weird boxes anymore. But it's
true.
I mean it is, it is interesting. and
yeah, we've... My production company, we kind of have
feet in both worlds of like self
(32:20):
produced or branding or that kind of
stuff. And then we're still in the world of like pitching
to you know, studios and networks.
So how have you personally been keeping your head
clear with all this? Like, have you just been prioritizing interestingly?
Is it just picking your targets?
Like, you know, I've taken
(32:40):
jobs that I might not
have taken. But you know, the thing is like I
took a job for advertising and I gotta say
I really loved it... they just needed
me to write, you know, they just needed some funny stuff.
So I wrote for this huge
advertiser and it was really interesting.
Like the corporate culture, I don't really
(33:02):
experience that much so I loved that.
And then I've also been doing a lot of
Live performing.
Yeah, a lot.
And I mean Griffin, I could tour like
200 days a year if I wanted to. It's
insane. People really want live stuff.
Yeah, for sure.
(33:22):
And I've been doing internationally. I just
did Austria,
Bulgaria,
---
I know you're. I know you were doing the
Messing with Lehr
...thing. What else have you been touring?
That's it. That show. That show. We can tour it anywhere.
It's with Susan Messing who's also in Lifandi.
(33:45):
I've released a few cuts of her.
Wonderful.
She's a super talented improviser out of Chicago.
We I mean we're going back to
Norway. We're going to Switzerland.
Like there's. But there's also in the States
we're go goingna do a Midwest tour. I think like
Kansas City because that's where I'm from. St. Louis,
Austin and then some Southwest.
(34:07):
I'm not sure that...
And then Boston?
I would love to do. I would love
that... and see you again.
Yeah, no, I don't make it as far west as you very often.
I usually end up stopping at New York or Chicago these days.
But yes.
I'm trying to get over to Portland and Seattle for a couple things this year
So we'll see how that goes.
Oh yeah, we've done some dates in Seattle and Portland
(34:29):
As well.
Nice.
Yeah, there's a lot... people just want that stuff.
They just want it.
Yeah, no, there's a lot more. I think it's just that that
combination of people not getting good entertainment streamed to them
or like the stuff that's getting streamed is so like rapid fire that
it's, it's not as
appreciated, as enjoyed as, as
(34:50):
experienced. And then yah. Being bottled up from
the pandemic. That combination has really made
people want to see curated like really well put together live
things.
I agree with you 100%. yeah, I think being bottled
up in the pandemic was a lot of it. We kind of were all like
oh wow. Doing things like that is,
you know, you can't take it for granted. So yeah,
(35:11):
it. I've always wished
people could see what happens on the
set when we're improvising doing stuff
because the show of it so
fun too. Like the crew gets the best show because
they're seeing everything. Because it's different every
take, every.
Ah, yeah. No, I've always. I've not resented. That's not
(35:32):
the right word. I was always sad that you weren't releasing like
blooper reels stuff or like B roll stuff of
Quickdraw because I was always wondering like what other
lines didn't make the cut on that. I think I saw like one or two things that
did get released, but not...
Yeah, it's weird. The owners, you know, because
Hulu and TBA, they own the shows or
Sony. and so they. Yeah, I think
(35:54):
they, they're becoming more open
to releasing that stuff. But they want to
monetize everything. Yeah,
understandable.
But I don't think people understand that like sometimes
giving a taste away for free is
monetizing everything else. It's just weird.
They're precious.
Too precious.
I know, I know. And they're starting to see that
(36:17):
that's marketing. They're starting to see it as marketing. Like
stuff for free on YouTube is
marketing. But you know, it's hard to get these giant
companies to change their ways.
Yeah, no, I guess it is easier when you're only
making decisions one to one on, on the
spot.
right, right.
That person George, who does comic books, I will work comic cons with him
(36:38):
and he had brought up which I had kind of
forgotten that I did this. But if a show is going poorly and we're not like
getting a lot of customers or foot traffic and it's just like bad
energy all throughout the room. Instead... I used to mope
the first couple of years I would just like get... it would get into
me and then at some point it tilted and then I will
Just be like, okay, well now I'm just gonna like, give stuff. Like if someone walks by and
(36:59):
they seem excited but they're not buying, I'll just give them a thing like,
here, take it. It's. It's costing me a dollar for
the having printed it or for the bookmark. And like,
now you're happy and you're going to take that out there.
And maybe next year you come back with friends and then it turns
into that in the future.
But like, it builds your brand and it
yeah
And there's no reason to protect the stuff that's not selling. That didn't cost
(37:21):
me. Like, that's not where I'm... I've lost money on paying for the
table. So this is just stuff that like, is now
bogging me down. Might as well just make use of it.
Yeah. Then you don't have to carry it back to the car.
Yeah, that.
Who wins?
So where are you off to? Like, what you. What's. What's the next
(37:41):
thing you're doing? What's. What are you looking forward to most in the next moment?
I'm gonna shoot a little, another Lifandi
scene.
Cool.
That we're coming up on. And I'm going
to, Cleanson University.
Oh.
To scout and cast for a
student film that they want to do a
(38:01):
feature. And so I'm gonna
direct it and write it.
That's amazing.
Cast, you know, some students, some professional
actors and and then professional crew.
But also bring in student crew
so that they can learn.
So that's amazing.
Yeah. I cannot wait. It's gonna be so,
(38:22):
like, different, and fun.
it's a producer that I've worked with a, ton. And
he's now a professor there. And he said, hey,
this idea, do you want to do it?
I was like, okay, absolutely
brilliant.
I gotta write it, which sucks.
Is always. There is always the hard work next to the fun
(38:44):
work.
But I get so much done on the plane and I travel
so much now I can really jam stuff out on the plane.
I don't know why.
I'm on the train to New York tomorrow and I have like two
illustrations due for thing. I was like, I'll do the lines today and
then I'll just. I'll paint it on the train tomorrow and I'll have my little
kit there... and everyone will be looking at me like, how are you doing this on a
rocking train? I'm like, you just learn. You just learn.
(39:08):
I know. I'm that weird dude on the plane. Who's hunched over his
computer while everybody else is sleeping.
But there's no... Nobody bugs you.
Nobody texts.
You know, honestly, it's my favorite thing. Traveling, being in
airports. Cause there's nothing else I can do but whatever I
want. There's no intrusive thought that can take me in a different direction.
It's just what's there.
(39:30):
it's a prison of your making.
Yeah, I'm only
capped by what I've brought with me.
well, thank you so much for sitting down with me and chatting. This has
been hugely helpful.
Thank you for having me, Griffin. You're such a great person.
I just love the way you think and... I'm a
fan.
(39:52):
That is very kind of you to say,
but I'll let you get back to what you're doing and.
All right.
I'll might bring you back later for a follow up in the
future. But otherwise keep me posted on what's going on.
Okay. Who's paying for the coffee? Me or...
I'll take care. I got it. Okay. I know the barista.
(40:21):
God, I love talking to John. there is
never a point of a conversation with him where I am bored, where
I'm not smiling or laughing.
It's insane.
it looked like you were having a good time.
Yeah, I.
He makes it very easy to be comfortable
in the conversation no matter what. And it's.
(40:43):
I can see why he... His charisma
clearly is a big value add for a lot of what he does.
But I definitely came away with some interesting stuff because
neither you or I really have a
TV adjacent
production knowledge or like that's not our
method of anything. No.
(41:05):
But on your point of focus,
before he and I started chatting, he did
go into the idea of like it did end up being mostly with the
actors it seemed where when he
is going into a project he does try to bring people with him and
he specifically, he specifically named dropped Bob (Clendenin)
who I think I have seen him work with in every project
(41:26):
that I've watched him do. And
it clearly for good reason. Like he just
delivers and he always hits the like
tone and the awkwardness that he's aiming for. He's got that kind of
slapsticky vibe to himself as an actor
and it makes perfect sense.
But I did love that he... John does have a
(41:46):
focal value on... If you've worked with good
people, keep working with those people as
long as they'll come with you. And
I, as someone who as you've seen will try to drag People
from project to project,
Present company definitely include. Yeah.
Then, yeah, no, once you. Once you have a good rappprt
(42:08):
with someone like that is invaluable in my
opinion. And I was happy to see that reflected in
John's mindset. But it was a little
daunting to hear how abnormal that sounded like it
was.
Yeah, I mean, there's a.
I think a difference somewhere. There's a
line between knowing good people
(42:28):
and continuing to work with them and just like outright
harmful cronyism.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a tricky balance to find.
Like, sometimes, like, especially in the
professional sphere for a paid gig, it
can sting to see that it went to
somebody's best friend instead of
(42:50):
an actor that you know and like, or even
yourself. But
in, like, academic theater
or in just fun projects that
you're doing, I think having
a network of people you're friends with,
but also people that you can really trust on a
professional level is really important. Like,
(43:12):
I'm helping out one of my friends with her senior
thesis and something
that she kept reiterating to me as she
was, like, asking me to do her this favor,
which I don't consider it a favor. I'm super excited that
I get to do this because she's brilliant. but something that she kept
reiterating to me was that she has a lot
(43:32):
of trust in my ability as an actor
and my, like, level of professionalism.
And she has absolute
faith in me to be able to do her main
character justice. Like, that just means the
world.
That's amazing. Those are the moments that, like,
can carry you forever.
Yeah, absolutely.
(43:54):
There is something John specifically hit the point
of in, at least in the TV world, in the
production cycle, in the way that, like, it has to move through certain chains
and gates before it becomes an actual thing.
While you will have someone who
gets a roll or gets their foot in the door
because they know someone or because they're related, to this person.
(44:15):
Somebody called in a favor. There is a little
bit more in that machine, which probably
has something to do with the corporate construct of it. But if
you can't deliver once you're there, then
a lot of those advantages end up useless.
Obviously, like, we see from the outside stuff that
gets, published, produced,
circulated,
(44:38):
like, Like M. Night Shyamalan recently put
his daughter in a project and like, literally made the
project to focus on her. And there was a lot of
criticism because people didn't think that she did
fulfill the requirements.
And that's gotta be really rough. But, like, in Most
multi faceted systems where it's not just
(44:58):
essentially a vanity project being put together by somebody
in the industry, there are a little bit more
buffers and gates to keep that from ending up as the
end result.
It's interesting I don't
have a direct point of reference for what you're talking
about so purely from the information you've given me,
I think it's interesting that people
(45:19):
are talking about this person
not being able to fulfill the requirements of the role
when according to the information that you
gave, it was made for them.
Yeah, it's very interestingly weird that
like criticism is directly in
face of both intention and
control.
(45:40):
I mean audience is gonna audience.
But yes. Patrick (H) Willems who does a
fantastic YouTube channel, did
a episode kind of teaching people how
film criticism... like a nice beginner crash
course for talking about films and
there was definitely a focal point...
(46:00):
Critics or audiences trying to
take a critical perspective against
a work because it's not what they thought
it was going to be is very different than considering
the intention of the project and what they were
trying for.
I think that's an important thing to learn especially as
a creative yourself...
(46:22):
general you... not a specific call out...
especially in creative fields, strong opinions
form and it's difficult but it is a
reckoning you have to have of like some
things just aren't for you.
Sometimes you're gonna hate a thing and that
doesn't make it bad. And
(46:42):
even if it is bad you can still
dislike it for you know,
superficial reasons and not because it is
not high up.
I like when you do the other voices. one of my exes,
a ... point of contention I would repeatedly trigger
in her was if we were watching a movie
(47:04):
together I would sometimes just make a
noise like "Ohh?" And she would think that I
was criticizing it in a dislike
way and I'm like No, no. Like you're a
scientist and if you saw someone trying to solve a
problem, you'd still notice what they did
different than what you would have done. That's not you saying they're
doing it wrong necessarily. This is the same thing. I
(47:26):
write stories. I didn't think that was going toa be the payoff to
that like setup. And yeah, she would get
really aggravated with me and just would not accept that
I was not... She was just stuck on thinking I hated things that she wanted
me to like.
I'm trying to think if I have something about like
I don't think I do.
That's fair.
(47:48):
Like I've griped enough. I don't need to complain
again.
But no, overall, it is just
nice to see that there are collaborative standards and there
are people who, who are operating in these roles
of kind of leading projects where they are
taking everyone into consideration in the way these projects work
and making sure that everyone feels valued and gets the shine.
(48:10):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think
it's very meaningful and it's also a great
way to build a network. It's a great way to
make yourself somebody who is loved in what
you do if you are clearly
careful about your people.
Yeah. Yeah. So
that being said, if there's anything you ever need,
(48:32):
remember to let me know.
I know I have promised.
I got you.
Well, I have my third ever bartending shift in
just a half hour or so, so I gotta go
brush up on my classic cocktails.
I'm very excited that the long con I've been playing
at my big adult job has finally panned out and now I'm
(48:53):
on the bartender list.
I am so happy you finally got there because I know you were kind
of excited about the concept for a while and I'm a little
envious.
I've been planting seeds
for as long as I have worked there.
Go have fun slinging drinks. I will talk to you next time.
Sounds good.
(49:37):
Likey - Hey Archer- there's a saf - Sorry -
- Oh Sorry -
And that's the end of the conversation for the day!
That's all, folks.
If you enjoyed this episode, we have plenty
more and you're encouraged to subscribe or follow.
(49:57):
If you're curious, head to
shadedareas.com for more information
about the show and other projects related to us.
If you're generous, head over to
patreon.com/createartrepeat where you can support
the show. Thanks for listening and until
next time, stay thoughtful, stay
playful, and keep creating.
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