Code switching is an intersectional and cross-cultural phenomenon that’s stood the test of time. And while some argue that it’s a healthy and common practice, others see it as a dangerous balancing act that can lead to mental, emotional, and even physical stress. Episode 3 tackles the complex idea of code switching and explores the question of the idea of bringing the whole self and the authentic self to the workplace environment. Additionally, listeners will hear from guest panelists on their experiences with code switching, and strategies for fostering an inclusive campus culture.
Guests: Janine Jackson, Rondell Merrill, Kamari Jordan, Will Crawford, and Camesha Richardson
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Leading stories.
Trending topics.
Changing narratives.
This is the Critical Conversationspodcast series.
Welcome back everybody.
It is a pleasure and an honorto gather together in this way.
Thank you for listening.
You could have been anywhere elsein the world.
You could have downloadeda number of other podcast,
but you press play on this oneand I appreciate that.
(00:25):
March has been an incredibly busy month.
I forgot which play it was,but I remember there was a line
Beware the Ides of March that mighthave been Othello or something like that.
Somebody out there knows whatI'm talking about.
Where The Ides of March it'sin higher education.
The post spring breaks.
A commencementperiod is just in incredibly busy.
(00:45):
And, there's so much to do.
There's so many things to close out.
And so if you
are listening to this podcast and you workin the field of higher education
in any other field
where there's an incredibly busy season,hang in there.
It's going to be all right.
We're going to get through it,and we're going to keep doing the work
and we're going to keep making it happenfor the people that we serve.
(01:09):
We've got a lot to get to today, including
an incredible conversationwith a with a crew of Oakton employees
discussing the phenomenonof code switching.
So I hope you stick around for that.
But before we do, let'sget into the breakdown,
because we've got a lot to talk abouttoday.
Particularly,I want to talk about states like Florida,
(01:30):
states like Texas, states like Alabama.
These are some of the states across the
US that have eliminatedthese programs jobs.
And even in some cases, student groups.
One particular flagshipcase is the University of Florida,
(01:52):
which has recently eliminatedits entire DEA operation,
including its chief diversityofficer position,
13 staff positions, and 15
faculty member positionsthat have been reappointed
and reassignedfrom their administrative appointments,
which also has economic implicationsas well.
(02:14):
$5 million have been earmarked
that was earmarked for the Dei programs
have now been divertedinto a faculty retirement fund,
and Governor Ron DeSantis
statedthat he is proud of his state of Florida
for being the first stateto enact such measures,
and he hopes other states will follow.
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Other states did follow,
including Alabama,
which recently passed a Senate bill.
Senate Bill 129
to ban
federalfunding for Dei programs in public schools
and universities.
(02:58):
And in states like Texas.
You had the conservative
media news website Accuracy in Media
ambushed a number of university employees
from different colleges,
and they asked themabout how they incorporate
(03:18):
Dei work, even though the laws in Texas
prohibited.
And so they caughtsome of these folks slipping.
And there was conversationsthat took place
that were then weaponizedand used against the individuals,
some of them which
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the jobs are in danger.
And even at this point,I'm not sure it may even be
lost.
It's a war out there right now.
There's no other way to say it.
We can call it the anti ID federallegislative movement, but it is war.
It is a waragainst the ideology of inclusion.
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It is a war against equitableopportunities that benefit everyone.
It is a war against the diversity thatmakes us rich and that makes us unique.
And that is for the benefit
of those who are in power.
It is for the benefit of those
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who thrive on the degradation of others.
My encouragement to everyone
is to stay the course.
I know it's hard.
I know it's difficult.
And I know our work can be really intense.
But stay the course.
I had the opportunityto attend the National Association
(04:42):
of Diversity Officers and Higher EducationConference, also known as Natalie,
and they talked about the discourse aroundDei and how us practitioners,
we've got to learn, how to be a little bit better at dialoging
across differences, differencesof opinion, differences of perspective,
but also knowing when to lean inand listening, even if we know
we're never going to agree,we can't always shut people down
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when those ideas differ from ours.
Ours, even if they're harmful,we can point out the harm
without causing more harm.
We can point outwhat's wrong without being in the wrong.
We can promote the workwithout finding ways
to put other people down,
as it has been done to us so many times.
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And so I encourage us as Dei practitioners
to be vigilant,to be creative, to be knowledgeable
and guide the narrative.
Don't worryabout controlling the narrative.
I can't control what you think, butI can guide the narrative with my works.
I live in the state of Illinois, which
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hasn't passed any laws on this yet,
but it doesn't mean thatwe don't encounter resistance.
So for all thosewho are now playing defense
in the Dei space,
you have me and many othersstanding in solidarity with you.
One of the ways
in which we have to play defense inthis space
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is by code switching,
which is the topic of discussionfor today.
I am joined by fivegreat Oakland colleagues,
all of which are uniquely qualifiedto speak on this subject.
And so on.
Our interview
today, we're going to discuss codeswitching from a few different angles,
but particularly we're going to talk abouta concept on hold self
(06:32):
versus authentic self.
And I want you if you're listening,to think about this question,
which version of yourselfdo you bring to work each and every day?
Is it your whole self,your authentic self?
Both or neither?
This concept came up in episode one,but we're going to break it
all the way down in episode three,
(06:52):
so keep your
ears glued to the stereoor your headphones
or however you consume thisbecause I promise
you it'sgoing to be a critical conversation.
I think that sometimes
the idea of code switching, inmy opinion, is presented in a limited way,
and I don't want to ask the definitionquestion.
(07:14):
I don't want to ask how you define it,but I do want to ask,
when was the first time you ever felt youneeded to code switch in the workplace?
And the reason I ask
that question is because, to me,the way it was introduced to me, I'd been
code switching before I knew what it was,but it was introduced to me by mentors
who encouraged me to be a little bitcloser in proximity to whiteness
(07:36):
as a meanstowards my professional success,
which led me to believe thatthere were parts of my blackness, parts
of my culture that were liabilitiesto my career success rather than assets.
And it took me well into my professionalcareer to see those things as assets.
And so when's the first timethat you can remember
(07:57):
that you code switch in the workplace,and what did that feel like for you?
I went to a predominantlywhite institution,
so I thinkby the time that I got into my career,
I had my philosophy on code switching,which is it's
it is a historically or majoritywhite space or non-black space.
(08:18):
I automatically code switch, I go into it,I code switch,
I figure out the landscape for players,and I have experiences that either
reinforce you need to code switchto protect yourself or certain people
or roots.
You can ease up a little bitfor lack of a better term.
So I think experiencesat my predominantly white institution
(08:41):
let me know that it's not always safe foryou not to,
and that you will have consequencessometimes that you have to bear.
How can you protect yourself?
How can you stay safe?
And also it brings up the question ofare you compromising yourself?
So those are thingsI kind of tackled as a student.
(09:03):
I think the first time I realizedit was in a job interview,
my first job interview,real job interview,
and I was just really givenassimilation techniques.
I didn't know that it was called codeswitching.
I just knew that it was a assimilationtechnique
on how to present myself physically,how to show up into a space.
(09:23):
In an interview, how to speak
clearly,not to use contractions, and that,
I worked my first couple of jobswas with the United States government,
and so I really had to learnhow to assimilate very quickly.
And then on the way home or at home,
(09:46):
then I could be my authentic self.
And what does it mean to assimilate?
I think, for me to assimilateis just to look at the lay of the land,
to understand who the players are,what's the culture, the business culture,
the culture of the people,and to be able to adapt.
And I did that at a very,very young age right out of college.
(10:09):
I, I'm struggling
to think of a timewhere I actually had that encounter.
I think my upbringing always encouraged meto be direct
in termsof how I communicate and be myself.
So I'm the same person in a lot of places,but what I find is
that I'm allowedto be the person I want to present.
(10:32):
So codeswitching really to me, became popular
in terms of that nomenclaturefairly recently.
Like I've started,I started seeing it on social media,
and when I started reading about itand I'm like, oh,
now when I was looking at it,I'm seeing it as something
that really sort of belongto black people.
But the truth of the matter isit doesn't belong to any particular group
(10:53):
of people or, or gender or, any type of identity.
And what I find is that itoccurs in so many different places
for different reasons.
When I think about my own experience,I can recall being in situations
where I was actually experiencing
something different, suchas like microaggressions or just outright
(11:14):
biases, and mebeing the direct communicator that I am.
And maybe some peoplemay even be confrontational.
I would call it as I thoughtI saw it like,
let me make sure that I understand you.
But when I when I thought aboutlike what was happening, for example,
I had to remember having a conversationwith an individual at one employer
(11:34):
in the individual keptreferring to me as a gal,
but refer to different people as a woman,you know, different places.
And I'm like, that's signaling,you know, you know, it's interesting.
I used to think that I didn't code switch.
I grew up working class,the city I grew up
in was a lot of issues with inequality,
(11:57):
a lot of issues with racism,a lot of issues with a lot of stuff.
And my family.
My dad was a steelworker,didn't graduate high school.
My mom didn't graduate high school.
So, first gen college students.
But, you know, I'm white, so, you know,I should fit anywhere.
Well, my first experience.
(12:18):
Well, first of all,I didn't know what code switching was
until I came acrossit years ago on a podcast.
So, I mean, this is when podcasts renew.
It was the first timeI heard the term code switching,
and it took a couple yearsfor me to realize, yeah,
I have been doing that
is we do often think of itas we associate it with blackness,
(12:41):
but I think social class plays a rolein this as well,
because my first experience, though,I didn't have the term at the time,
my first experience with code switching
that I really recall waswhen I was in grad school.
I was giving a presentationat professional meetings
and the way I had to present myself.
(13:04):
I was accepted and taught.
To present myself was completely differentfrom my authentic self.
But still, just the whole presentationhouse was to stand in front of people.
How I'm supposed to just emit bigness
from myself, which is not somethinga working class girl is ever taught to do.
(13:27):
You know, it was somethingcompletely new to me up until,
you know, within the past couple of yearswhen I really started to examine
my experiences with code switching,I didn't recognize it as code switching.
I thought it was just,
you know, this is just what you doif you want to be a professor, right?
But truth is, it's code switching.
(13:49):
And so that actually brings usto the next question.
You talk about the idea of wholesaleversus authentic self.
And I think that some of the earlierexperiences that I've had with code
switching has led me to this question.
So let's hear back from the panelists.
Which do you bring to work
your whole self, your authentic self,a combination of two or neither?
Yeah, I would definitely say.
(14:10):
I bring a combination.
Yeah, I bring a combination to to work.
And depending on the situation,depending on the circumstances,
how much of that will or so,people get to see or interact with.
And then sometimes that they take itdepending.
we're talking about not just language.
Like when we talk about code switchit could be actually like
(14:32):
what I'm wearing. Right.
So today you I can.
Tell you like yesterday ask.
Like, so what's the address and the nameI asked her as well.
Right.
Today some events going onand I'm not part of the event,
but I was just like, what?
Everybody else is going to be dressed upand I'd be the one guy in a hoodie
and people would be like,look at this dude.
So even that, right? So let's switch.
(14:53):
Okay.
So but even that rightthis the way that I dress
and choose the dressI think speaks to myself like who I am
and like what I feeland what I feel when I wear those clothes.
Right.
And it's not a thing of like tryingto present something that's inauthentic,
but it's also somethingthat I feel comfortable in.
And I've been in Okta nowlike 20 years, right.
(15:13):
So I've got some time in the game. Right?
So the whole notion of like, what,what people wear
when they first startedopening them very differently,
I think, than when, you know,when they've been here for some time,
but also at the same time when I was here,like in my first 3 to 5 years,
I had colleagues,particularly white colleagues.
I noticed that
(15:34):
they got to wear certain things,and I'm sure if I was wearing those things
that it would be questionable orthere would be questions raised about my.
And I'm not sayingthat they weren't professional,
but how it would look,how would look at me are people
would look at me, no question mein terms of my choice of dress.
And I realize as again, being therelonger that, you know,
embracing and and and allowingmy full self to come to, to work
(15:58):
and that again that at the same time,it doesn't speak to anything
about my being a professional.
And also, I think it's also a way for meto actually engage.
ParticularlyI'm not dressing to try to dress similarly
to some of my students,but they might see something that they do.
Yeah, yeah.
And I make connections with studentsbased upon what I had on.
But want to shout outWill because Will was when the interview
(16:20):
was on the search team for that hired meor that recommended me rather.
And I coached switched in the interviewand Will was the only one who got it.
He's the only one who got it.
And so I say, well,I don't know if I'm gonna get this job,
but I got him,I got I made a friend right there.
And so I felt even in that momentthat I was taking a risk
code switching in an interview,having been there for the first time.
(16:40):
And so I think it really does saysomething about who you choose to bring
to certain spaces and how much of yourselfin choosing in certain certain spaces.
Let's hear from others. Which whichone of you brings that work? Working with?
if you had asked me, I'm dating myself.
If you'd asked me 20 years ago,I would have said neither.
You'd asked me ten years ago.
(17:01):
I would have said my whole self would.
You're asking me now?
And I'm bringing both back for me now,where I am, in my confidence,
in my life experiences.
whole self and authentic selfare all encompassing.
What you see is what you get and will.
We did have that conversation yesterdayabout what to wear,
(17:23):
and I told you when I was thereI was going to dress up
and I felt really badbecause I came in with my jeans,
but I threw on a blazerand some nice shoes and I said, you know,
I actually don't feel like wearing a suit,
but I'm going to still be presentablein a fashion
that I feel likemy whole inauthentic self.
(17:44):
And so sorry I changed my outfit
today.
I'm bringingmy whole and my authentic self
because of the experiences that I have
and because and actually the spacein which I'm working in now, I can
the space allows me to be my wholeand authentic self, unapologetically.
(18:06):
Definitely both.
But I always bring my authentic self.
I sometimes bring my whole self.
When I think of my authentic self,I think of my morals.
I think of the decisionsI make, the actions that I have,
and those are always consistentno matter where I am.
that's the core of who I am.
(18:28):
When I think of my whole self,I think of all my identities
and how they intersectin those very specific
and unique experiences, or understandings.
And I think I change that based on onewhere
and how safe I feeland how understood I feel.
I think I
bring my whole self,my whole professional self.
(18:49):
I'm at work, not at home,not at the doctor's office, not at church.
I'm not in my daughter's roomdisciplining her.
So at workI think of bringing my whole self.
And I think I've always sort ofbrought my whole self
because, again, my upbringing,
I have a southern grandma who just, be yourself was kind of the mantra.
(19:11):
So that's who I am.
And what I believe isthat I'm allowed to be who I am.
And if people take issue with that,
I will make an attemptto try to understand, like,
what is it about me that's giving youan issue that you don't understand?
And I also try to think about, well, didI cause any want to be offended
by something I didor said in being who I really am?
(19:34):
I think that we're allowed to sort of
have what we also call it,switching your hat.
So when you're in your role, you knowyou're operating and doing your thing.
My professional self is the person thatI feel like is also my whole self at work.
There are parts of my lifethat simply don't belong to my own.
At my job.
(19:54):
Doesn't mean that I'm changing itto to do anything other than
preserve and protectwhat I rightfully have the ability to do.
So I'm entitled to privacy.
I'm entitled to manage my my lifethe way I want them to manage it.
And so I think I show up as my whole self.
Kind of like with that being somesomething, you know, my governing type
(20:15):
of thought, my answers, that question,the question, what do I bring?
I would say that I do both,
but I also qualify itthat I live with a mental illness.
So I am constantly moment to momentquestioning who I am.
And, you know, am I the right person?
But, you know, thinking aboutwhat do we wear?
(20:37):
You know, kind of kind of punk rock.
And I go for it.
And, you know, and I was thinking,you know,
about the questionsabout the whole self and authentic self.
And I thought, I'mjust going to just punk rock
and just bring myself self and who I am.
You know, when I'm in a classroom,I'm going to present myself differently
than when I do.
(20:58):
If I'm in a meetingor if I'm engaged in an activity
related to the LGBTQIatwo plus advisory council.
You know, all those different identitiesmay lead me, different parts of me,
but I think overall, you know,I try to be as authentic as I can.
(21:21):
But that said, I think,I think the role that we're playing,
at least for me, the role that I'm playingdoes make a difference in what
part of myselfor how much of my identity I'm
I'm sharing with everyone around me.
Yeah.
And that's why we ask the question aboutwhich do you bring to work?
(21:41):
Because professionalismis a unique construct that many believe.
You, myself included, as is rootedin white supremacy and how we act
and show up in certain spaces,and who has power and how
we should bring ourselves to the spacesin which that power exists.
it was just a couple of days ago
we were talking about, teach African-American literature,
(22:02):
and we were talking about FrederickDouglass narrative.
And real quick, Covey, there's a there'sa description about a fight that he have.
And as with, Covey and Covey is the,the slave breaker, and he.
Tells us that he was successful in.
Breaking him, but then he also tells ushow how he had a fight with Covey
(22:23):
that gave him back his manhood and hisinspiration for fighting for his freedom.
And he tells. Us that after that.
Fight, the covey tells him thatyou don't want me to get my hands
on you again, and you know, oryou'll get to get some more of that.
Right?
And I tried to make students understand,like, this is a moment
where we would say in the vernacular,you don't want that smoke.
(22:44):
Like, that's whatFrederick Douglass held, saying.
His mind was like.Yeah, you're saying that.
But you don't want this,want to smoke, right?
So it's that situation againwhere that code switching is useful
in the context of, again, the vernacularand trying to make sure that students
understand what they might tendencyas being something that's kind of like
out of reach because at the timeit was written in, but is really saying
(23:06):
some of the very thingsthat we would say in just everyday speech.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Let's do a little bit of a Swotanalysis around this.
I want to talk about strengths,weaknesses, opportunities and threats
as it relates to code switching.
So how does code switchingmake you strong.
Does it make you stronger. And so how.
For me I would say yes.
(23:28):
It makes me strongerbecause I look at it as a tool.
I look at itas something that I can choose.
I'm a believerthat indulging or participating
in another culture is a privilege,and we don't have to share it.
I don't have to share that
part of me I can choose not to,because in my experience,
(23:51):
there have been times where I share thatand it hasn't been respected.
It hasn't been understood.
So I see it as a tool.
One to try to get some form of safety,
but also a tool for me to have a choice.
I think the strength of code switching.
I agree with you Kamari.
(24:12):
It's a really interesting tooland that not everybody
has the opportunity to use or experience.
However, I also think codeswitching has its weaknesses too,
because if you're in a spacefor a really long time where you do
desperately want to be your authenticand whole self
(24:34):
and you just can't, it's exhausting.
Or if you, as I said before,
I think, like I said, 20 years ago,ten years ago,
I wasn't ableI didn't have the confidence to show
or maybe not the confidence,but I didn't have the trust.
I didn't feel safe to show up as one
or the other, or sometimes neither.
(24:56):
It's exhausting,
and it makes you question who you areand why you are where you are.
So I think that it can also be a weakness.
I'll add on to that weakness.
I feel like the weakness of codeswitching is no matter what you do,
you can't control how other peopleview you.
(25:17):
You can't control that personviewing your identity as unworthy.
So as much as I code switch,that doesn't ensure
that I get what I deserveor that I feel safe.
Yeah, that.
Bar, you know, excellent. Kamari.
The strength of it,just as Kamari described it.
Maybe you have an opportunityand you recognize you're in the situation,
(25:39):
so you leverage it as a tool to sort ofaccomplish what you want to accomplish.
The weakness of it, of course, is
the detrimental impactit has on some folks that are
really internalizingwhy they're in a certain situation,
that they can't be who they are,because it's going to have a detrimental
impact on their abilityto experience certain
(26:02):
freedoms and, you know, their livelihood,you know, opportunities,
I think, would be to really learnhow to navigate
interpersonal relationshipsin a way that is respectful
to both who you are as a person,but also the individual or individuals
with whom you're interacting at the timeyou're interacting, and threats.
(26:25):
Again, threats would be,
you know,some people are really internalizing.
And so when an individualis really experiencing
like emotional distress, it's importantfor them to take care of self.
So you may need to talk to someone. Right.
But in the workplace specifically,you do probably want to reach out
(26:47):
to your human resourcedepartment is not a plug for HR.
I say thatbecause there are other behaviors
that are going on that's triggering
some of the whole phenomena behind.
I need to talk different, act differently.
And so they've internalized that to sayI need to assimilate,
(27:08):
I need to act differently.
I can't be who I am.
Something you said made me think about
something I struggle withfor a little bit of time.
When you were talking about opportunities,you were saying
that it presents an opportunity to connectand communicate with different people.
And I think
that's how I justified it myself.
(27:29):
I'm like, oh, I'm learninghow to communicate with different people
and connect with different people,and I love connecting with people.
So I'm like, oh yeah, that's a superpower.
That's a great thing.
But then it became thatI was the one expected always to do that.
No one was everexpected to do that for me.
And I think that'swhen we're playing into white supremacy.
(27:51):
Yeah, that's for me.
When it became a threat, it becamea threat to my existence as a human being.
And my in my some of my earliestexperiences with code switching,
I felt like I needed
for the people in the roomto know that I was one of the good guys,
which I later realized came from,
that suppression that I had experienced toto to be different
(28:13):
because you want to appealand get closer to,
getting closer and proximity to whitenessas a means for career success.
So I became so fed up with it that I beganto weaponize my code switching.
And that's why I.
Code switching is threateningbecause it can also be co-opted.
So I was doing it as a method of survivalfor myself.
I needed to prove to myself,to show myself
(28:34):
that I could bring myself to any spaceand still be successful.
However, because I was so upset and angryabout where
I was, I wanted to make everybodyin the room uncomfortable.
And so I began to weaponize it in a waythat was detrimental to my own mental
and spiritual health.
But I think that I had to learn that
if I'm going to code switch for anybody,it needs to be for myself.
(28:57):
It needs to be for the benefit of howI feel in a particular space, to be safe
at the time, and not for the comfortor betterment or anyone else's around.
Thank you for that, Kamari.
I want to say one thing.
I totally understand what you just said.
I. I have
also had the conversationwhere in an individual's attempt
to connect to their, black coworkers,
(29:21):
those black coworkers were upsetbecause they felt
like they were being mocked and parodybecause they were trying.
That person was trying to connect,like using their slang.
That's why I say be yourself,right? Right.
Because who owns the rules?
Who? Who's the gatekeeper?
I don't know, show up as yourself.
(29:42):
And I think that's the real strength.
We got in just a few minutes left.
I want to leave with a question thathopefully you can answer from your own
personal perspective to offerfor those who may need to hear it.
What is one thing that you do every dayto affirm your identity?
Self-affirmation.
That's that's pretty deep, but, not to go down too deep.
(30:03):
Like definitely.
One thing I am personally against wears
is I just thank God for another day.
I mean, just that thank Godfor another day.
I have a Bible verse that comes up,but I do that.
And then in fact,
like so when people say, well,
yeah, he was trying to preach, I'mfar from a preacher, but that's really it.
(30:24):
That's that rightthere is like something I do every day.
I listen to my music on the way here.
My music's on and the artiststhat I personally choose before I show up
to spaces where it's majority non-black,
it's always artists that I am.
It's not like a, a, a code, but it'sa cultural thing that is just understood.
(30:49):
Like my favorite rappersAndre 3001, Andre, Say something.
You got to have that feeling.
You had to experience it to understandwhat he's talking about.
Or does it make sense?
I feel like you understand me. You see me?
so I listen to my music.
I was just going to say really quickly.
I stand in silence,standing, silence, giving,
(31:12):
realizing that life is a vapor.
So it's like, be grateful, be thankful.
So that's kind of my daily affirmation,realizing that nothing is guaranteed.
I think that's really important, you know?
So that's how I affirm who I am, similar
to listening to your music in me,it's part music.
It's also the clothes I wear.
(31:33):
I use my clothes to represent who I amand feel good in my
my own skinand and I can feel a difference
when I'm dressed like this versuswhen I've got jeans and a t shirt on.
I'm less questioning,you know, I mentioned I
because of my mental illness,I, I question every day,
(31:54):
every moment of every day who I am.
but when I dress the way I like to dress,
I'm so comfortable in my own skin
that I can let someof the other stuff go and
and feel more powerful.
Every morning I just listening to myself,
(32:17):
my inner self, and ask myself, like,what are you trying to say?
It's either me or God.
You know, just like wewe shouldn't say anything.
And then at the end of the day,I ask myself, did you answer the question?
Did you livewhatever the message came for me today
and then I do like you do.
(32:38):
Michelle reflect. And I said,
did I do so?
And so did I offendor did I come off a certain way
and I just kind of sit with that,kind of like having this inner check.
That's how I, affirm myself every dayby just listening.
I love that the inner chest, when Itell you that was a critical conversation.
(32:58):
That was a critical conversation.
I want to say thank you to our panelist,
our media team, our producer Eric Roomand his staff, as well
as Brenda Cruz and all of the othersthat worked so hard to put this together.
We truly appreciate you.
Hey, listen, we've got another episodecoming up for you in late April.
That's going to be our season
finale for episodes this season,and we're going to be back on the floor.
(33:22):
So rack with this againin about a month or so
and will engagein some more critical conversations.
As I stated before, hang in there.
Everything's going to work out,everything's going to be fine.
And I know that may seem cliche,but trust me,
those words mean a lot when you're goingthrough it in a way that Dr.
Practitioners are.
We will continue to be vigilant.
We will continue to do this work
(33:43):
and we will continue to fightfor those who need us the most.
We'll see you next time on the CriticalConversations podcast, everyone.
Thanks again. Peace.
Leading stories.
Trending topics.
Changing narratives.
This is the Critical Conversationspodcast series.
Welcome back everybody.
It is a pleasure and an honorto gather together in this way.
Thank you for listening.
You could have been anywhere elsein the world.
You could have downloadeda number of other podcast,
but you press play on this oneand I appreciate that.
(00:25):
March has been an incredibly busy month.
I forgot which play it was,but I remember there was a line
Beware the Ides of March that mighthave been Othello or something like that.
Somebody out there knows whatI'm talking about.
Where The Ides of March it'sin higher education.
The post spring breaks.
A commencementperiod is just in incredibly busy.
(00:45):
And, there's so much to do.
There's so many things to close out.
And so if you
are listening to this podcast and you workin the field of higher education
in any other field
where there's an incredibly busy season,hang in there.
It's going to be all right.
We're going to get through it,and we're going to keep doing the work
and we're going to keep making it happenfor the people that we serve.
(01:09):
We've got a lot to get to today, including
an incredible conversationwith a with a crew of Oakton employees
discussing the phenomenonof code switching.
So I hope you stick around for that.
But before we do, let'sget into the breakdown,
because we've got a lot to talk abouttoday.
Particularly,I want to talk about states like Florida,
(01:30):
states like Texas, states like Alabama.
These are some of the states across the
US that have eliminatedthese programs jobs.
And even in some cases, student groups.
One particular flagshipcase is the University of Florida,
(01:52):
which has recently eliminatedits entire DEA operation,
including its chief diversityofficer position,
13 staff positions, and 15
faculty member positionsthat have been reappointed
and reassignedfrom their administrative appointments,
which also has economic implicationsas well.
(02:14):
$5 million have been earmarked
that was earmarked for the Dei programs
have now been divertedinto a faculty retirement fund,
and Governor Ron DeSantis
statedthat he is proud of his state of Florida
for being the first stateto enact such measures,
and he hopes other states will follow.
(02:36):
Other states did follow,
including Alabama,
which recently passed a Senate bill.
Senate Bill 129
to ban
federalfunding for Dei programs in public schools
and universities.
(02:58):
And in states like Texas.
You had the conservative
media news website Accuracy in Media
ambushed a number of university employees
from different colleges,
and they asked themabout how they incorporate
(03:18):
Dei work, even though the laws in Texas
prohibited.
And so they caughtsome of these folks slipping.
And there was conversationsthat took place
that were then weaponizedand used against the individuals,
some of them which
(03:39):
the jobs are in danger.
And even at this point,I'm not sure it may even be
lost.
It's a war out there right now.
There's no other way to say it.
We can call it the anti ID federallegislative movement, but it is war.
It is a waragainst the ideology of inclusion.
(04:01):
It is a war against equitableopportunities that benefit everyone.
It is a war against the diversity thatmakes us rich and that makes us unique.
And that is for the benefit
of those who are in power.
It is for the benefit of those
(04:21):
who thrive on the degradation of others.
My encouragement to everyone
is to stay the course.
I know it's hard.
I know it's difficult.
And I know our work can be really intense.
But stay the course.
I had the opportunityto attend the National Association
(04:42):
of Diversity Officers and Higher EducationConference, also known as Natalie,
and they talked about the discourse aroundDei and how us practitioners,
we've got to learn, how to be a little bit better at dialoging
across differences, differencesof opinion, differences of perspective,
but also knowing when to lean inand listening, even if we know
we're never going to agree,we can't always shut people down
(05:05):
when those ideas differ from ours.
Ours, even if they're harmful,we can point out the harm
without causing more harm.
We can point outwhat's wrong without being in the wrong.
We can promote the workwithout finding ways
to put other people down,
as it has been done to us so many times.
(05:28):
And so I encourage us as Dei practitioners
to be vigilant,to be creative, to be knowledgeable
and guide the narrative.
Don't worryabout controlling the narrative.
I can't control what you think, butI can guide the narrative with my works.
I live in the state of Illinois, which
(05:49):
hasn't passed any laws on this yet,
but it doesn't mean thatwe don't encounter resistance.
So for all thosewho are now playing defense
in the Dei space,
you have me and many othersstanding in solidarity with you.
One of the ways
in which we have to play defense inthis space
(06:11):
is by code switching,
which is the topic of discussionfor today.
I am joined by fivegreat Oakland colleagues,
all of which are uniquely qualifiedto speak on this subject.
And so on.
Our interview
today, we're going to discuss codeswitching from a few different angles,
but particularly we're going to talk abouta concept on hold self
(06:32):
versus authentic self.
And I want you if you're listening,to think about this question,
which version of yourselfdo you bring to work each and every day?
Is it your whole self,your authentic self?
Both or neither?
This concept came up in episode one,but we're going to break it
all the way down in episode three,
(06:52):
so keep your
ears glued to the stereoor your headphones
or however you consume thisbecause I promise
you it'sgoing to be a critical conversation.
I think that sometimes
the idea of code switching, inmy opinion, is presented in a limited way,
and I don't want to ask the definitionquestion.
(07:14):
I don't want to ask how you define it,but I do want to ask,
when was the first time you ever felt youneeded to code switch in the workplace?
And the reason I ask
that question is because, to me,the way it was introduced to me, I'd been
code switching before I knew what it was,but it was introduced to me by mentors
who encouraged me to be a little bitcloser in proximity to whiteness
(07:36):
as a meanstowards my professional success,
which led me to believe thatthere were parts of my blackness, parts
of my culture that were liabilitiesto my career success rather than assets.
And it took me well into my professionalcareer to see those things as assets.
And so when's the first timethat you can remember
(07:57):
that you code switch in the workplace,and what did that feel like for you?
I went to a predominantlywhite institution,
so I thinkby the time that I got into my career,
I had my philosophy on code switching,which is it's
it is a historically or majoritywhite space or non-black space.
(08:18):
I automatically code switch, I go into it,I code switch,
I figure out the landscape for players,and I have experiences that either
reinforce you need to code switchto protect yourself or certain people
or roots.
You can ease up a little bitfor lack of a better term.
So I think experiencesat my predominantly white institution
(08:41):
let me know that it's not always safe foryou not to,
and that you will have consequencessometimes that you have to bear.
How can you protect yourself?
How can you stay safe?
And also it brings up the question ofare you compromising yourself?
So those are thingsI kind of tackled as a student.
(09:03):
I think the first time I realizedit was in a job interview,
my first job interview,real job interview,
and I was just really givenassimilation techniques.
I didn't know that it was called codeswitching.
I just knew that it was a assimilationtechnique
on how to present myself physically,how to show up into a space.
(09:23):
In an interview, how to speak
clearly,not to use contractions, and that,
I worked my first couple of jobswas with the United States government,
and so I really had to learnhow to assimilate very quickly.
And then on the way home or at home,
(09:46):
then I could be my authentic self.
And what does it mean to assimilate?
I think, for me to assimilateis just to look at the lay of the land,
to understand who the players are,what's the culture, the business culture,
the culture of the people,and to be able to adapt.
And I did that at a very,very young age right out of college.
(10:09):
I, I'm struggling
to think of a timewhere I actually had that encounter.
I think my upbringing always encouraged meto be direct
in termsof how I communicate and be myself.
So I'm the same person in a lot of places,but what I find is
that I'm allowedto be the person I want to present.
(10:32):
So codeswitching really to me, became popular
in terms of that nomenclaturefairly recently.
Like I've started,I started seeing it on social media,
and when I started reading about itand I'm like, oh,
now when I was looking at it,I'm seeing it as something
that really sort of belongto black people.
But the truth of the matter isit doesn't belong to any particular group
(10:53):
of people or, or gender or, any type of identity.
And what I find is that itoccurs in so many different places
for different reasons.
When I think about my own experience,I can recall being in situations
where I was actually experiencing
something different, suchas like microaggressions or just outright
(11:14):
biases, and mebeing the direct communicator that I am.
And maybe some peoplemay even be confrontational.
I would call it as I thoughtI saw it like,
let me make sure that I understand you.
But when I when I thought aboutlike what was happening, for example,
I had to remember having a conversationwith an individual at one employer
(11:34):
in the individual keptreferring to me as a gal,
but refer to different people as a woman,you know, different places.
And I'm like, that's signaling,you know, you know, it's interesting.
I used to think that I didn't code switch.
I grew up working class,the city I grew up
in was a lot of issues with inequality,
(11:57):
a lot of issues with racism,a lot of issues with a lot of stuff.
And my family.
My dad was a steelworker,didn't graduate high school.
My mom didn't graduate high school.
So, first gen college students.
But, you know, I'm white, so, you know,I should fit anywhere.
Well, my first experience.
(12:18):
Well, first of all,I didn't know what code switching was
until I came acrossit years ago on a podcast.
So, I mean, this is when podcasts renew.
It was the first timeI heard the term code switching,
and it took a couple yearsfor me to realize, yeah,
I have been doing that
is we do often think of itas we associate it with blackness,
(12:41):
but I think social class plays a rolein this as well,
because my first experience, though,I didn't have the term at the time,
my first experience with code switching
that I really recall waswhen I was in grad school.
I was giving a presentationat professional meetings
and the way I had to present myself.
(13:04):
I was accepted and taught.
To present myself was completely differentfrom my authentic self.
But still, just the whole presentationhouse was to stand in front of people.
How I'm supposed to just emit bigness
from myself, which is not somethinga working class girl is ever taught to do.
(13:27):
You know, it was somethingcompletely new to me up until,
you know, within the past couple of yearswhen I really started to examine
my experiences with code switching,I didn't recognize it as code switching.
I thought it was just,
you know, this is just what you doif you want to be a professor, right?
But truth is, it's code switching.
(13:49):
And so that actually brings usto the next question.
You talk about the idea of wholesaleversus authentic self.
And I think that some of the earlierexperiences that I've had with code
switching has led me to this question.
So let's hear back from the panelists.
Which do you bring to work
your whole self, your authentic self,a combination of two or neither?
Yeah, I would definitely say.
(14:10):
I bring a combination.
Yeah, I bring a combination to to work.
And depending on the situation,depending on the circumstances,
how much of that will or so,people get to see or interact with.
And then sometimes that they take itdepending.
we're talking about not just language.
Like when we talk about code switchit could be actually like
(14:32):
what I'm wearing. Right.
So today you I can.
Tell you like yesterday ask.
Like, so what's the address and the nameI asked her as well.
Right.
Today some events going onand I'm not part of the event,
but I was just like, what?
Everybody else is going to be dressed upand I'd be the one guy in a hoodie
and people would be like,look at this dude.
So even that, right? So let's switch.
(14:53):
Okay.
So but even that rightthis the way that I dress
and choose the dressI think speaks to myself like who I am
and like what I feeland what I feel when I wear those clothes.
Right.
And it's not a thing of like tryingto present something that's inauthentic,
but it's also somethingthat I feel comfortable in.
And I've been in Okta nowlike 20 years, right.
(15:13):
So I've got some time in the game. Right?
So the whole notion of like, what,what people wear
when they first startedopening them very differently,
I think, than when, you know,when they've been here for some time,
but also at the same time when I was here,like in my first 3 to 5 years,
I had colleagues,particularly white colleagues.
I noticed that
(15:34):
they got to wear certain things,and I'm sure if I was wearing those things
that it would be questionable orthere would be questions raised about my.
And I'm not sayingthat they weren't professional,
but how it would look,how would look at me are people
would look at me, no question mein terms of my choice of dress.
And I realize as again, being therelonger that, you know,
embracing and and and allowingmy full self to come to, to work
(15:58):
and that again that at the same time,it doesn't speak to anything
about my being a professional.
And also, I think it's also a way for meto actually engage.
ParticularlyI'm not dressing to try to dress similarly
to some of my students,but they might see something that they do.
Yeah, yeah.
And I make connections with studentsbased upon what I had on.
But want to shout outWill because Will was when the interview
(16:20):
was on the search team for that hired meor that recommended me rather.
And I coached switched in the interviewand Will was the only one who got it.
He's the only one who got it.
And so I say, well,I don't know if I'm gonna get this job,
but I got him,I got I made a friend right there.
And so I felt even in that momentthat I was taking a risk
code switching in an interview,having been there for the first time.
(16:40):
And so I think it really does saysomething about who you choose to bring
to certain spaces and how much of yourselfin choosing in certain certain spaces.
Let's hear from others. Which whichone of you brings that work? Working with?
if you had asked me, I'm dating myself.
If you'd asked me 20 years ago,I would have said neither.
You'd asked me ten years ago.
(17:01):
I would have said my whole self would.
You're asking me now?
And I'm bringing both back for me now,where I am, in my confidence,
in my life experiences.
whole self and authentic selfare all encompassing.
What you see is what you get and will.
We did have that conversation yesterdayabout what to wear,
(17:23):
and I told you when I was thereI was going to dress up
and I felt really badbecause I came in with my jeans,
but I threw on a blazerand some nice shoes and I said, you know,
I actually don't feel like wearing a suit,
but I'm going to still be presentablein a fashion
that I feel likemy whole inauthentic self.
(17:44):
And so sorry I changed my outfit
today.
I'm bringingmy whole and my authentic self
because of the experiences that I have
and because and actually the spacein which I'm working in now, I can
the space allows me to be my wholeand authentic self, unapologetically.
(18:06):
Definitely both.
But I always bring my authentic self.
I sometimes bring my whole self.
When I think of my authentic self,I think of my morals.
I think of the decisionsI make, the actions that I have,
and those are always consistentno matter where I am.
that's the core of who I am.
(18:28):
When I think of my whole self,I think of all my identities
and how they intersectin those very specific
and unique experiences, or understandings.
And I think I change that based on onewhere
and how safe I feeland how understood I feel.
I think I
bring my whole self,my whole professional self.
(18:49):
I'm at work, not at home,not at the doctor's office, not at church.
I'm not in my daughter's roomdisciplining her.
So at workI think of bringing my whole self.
And I think I've always sort ofbrought my whole self
because, again, my upbringing,
I have a southern grandma who just, be yourself was kind of the mantra.
(19:11):
So that's who I am.
And what I believe isthat I'm allowed to be who I am.
And if people take issue with that,
I will make an attemptto try to understand, like,
what is it about me that's giving youan issue that you don't understand?
And I also try to think about, well, didI cause any want to be offended
by something I didor said in being who I really am?
(19:34):
I think that we're allowed to sort of
have what we also call it,switching your hat.
So when you're in your role, you knowyou're operating and doing your thing.
My professional self is the person thatI feel like is also my whole self at work.
There are parts of my lifethat simply don't belong to my own.
At my job.
(19:54):
Doesn't mean that I'm changing itto to do anything other than
preserve and protectwhat I rightfully have the ability to do.
So I'm entitled to privacy.
I'm entitled to manage my my lifethe way I want them to manage it.
And so I think I show up as my whole self.
Kind of like with that being somesomething, you know, my governing type
(20:15):
of thought, my answers, that question,the question, what do I bring?
I would say that I do both,
but I also qualify itthat I live with a mental illness.
So I am constantly moment to momentquestioning who I am.
And, you know, am I the right person?
But, you know, thinking aboutwhat do we wear?
(20:37):
You know, kind of kind of punk rock.
And I go for it.
And, you know, and I was thinking,you know,
about the questionsabout the whole self and authentic self.
And I thought, I'mjust going to just punk rock
and just bring myself self and who I am.
You know, when I'm in a classroom,I'm going to present myself differently
than when I do.
(20:58):
If I'm in a meetingor if I'm engaged in an activity
related to the LGBTQIatwo plus advisory council.
You know, all those different identitiesmay lead me, different parts of me,
but I think overall, you know,I try to be as authentic as I can.
(21:21):
But that said, I think,I think the role that we're playing,
at least for me, the role that I'm playingdoes make a difference in what
part of myselfor how much of my identity I'm
I'm sharing with everyone around me.
Yeah.
And that's why we ask the question aboutwhich do you bring to work?
(21:41):
Because professionalismis a unique construct that many believe.
You, myself included, as is rootedin white supremacy and how we act
and show up in certain spaces,and who has power and how
we should bring ourselves to the spacesin which that power exists.
it was just a couple of days ago
we were talking about, teach African-American literature,
(22:02):
and we were talking about FrederickDouglass narrative.
And real quick, Covey, there's a there'sa description about a fight that he have.
And as with, Covey and Covey is the,the slave breaker, and he.
Tells us that he was successful in.
Breaking him, but then he also tells ushow how he had a fight with Covey
(22:23):
that gave him back his manhood and hisinspiration for fighting for his freedom.
And he tells. Us that after that.
Fight, the covey tells him thatyou don't want me to get my hands
on you again, and you know, oryou'll get to get some more of that.
Right?
And I tried to make students understand,like, this is a moment
where we would say in the vernacular,you don't want that smoke.
(22:44):
Like, that's whatFrederick Douglass held, saying.
His mind was like.Yeah, you're saying that.
But you don't want this,want to smoke, right?
So it's that situation againwhere that code switching is useful
in the context of, again, the vernacularand trying to make sure that students
understand what they might tendencyas being something that's kind of like
out of reach because at the timeit was written in, but is really saying
(23:06):
some of the very thingsthat we would say in just everyday speech.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Let's do a little bit of a Swotanalysis around this.
I want to talk about strengths,weaknesses, opportunities and threats
as it relates to code switching.
So how does code switchingmake you strong.
Does it make you stronger. And so how.
For me I would say yes.
(23:28):
It makes me strongerbecause I look at it as a tool.
I look at itas something that I can choose.
I'm a believerthat indulging or participating
in another culture is a privilege,and we don't have to share it.
I don't have to share that
part of me I can choose not to,because in my experience,
(23:51):
there have been times where I share thatand it hasn't been respected.
It hasn't been understood.
So I see it as a tool.
One to try to get some form of safety,
but also a tool for me to have a choice.
I think the strength of code switching.
I agree with you Kamari.
(24:12):
It's a really interesting tooland that not everybody
has the opportunity to use or experience.
However, I also think codeswitching has its weaknesses too,
because if you're in a spacefor a really long time where you do
desperately want to be your authenticand whole self
(24:34):
and you just can't, it's exhausting.
Or if you, as I said before,
I think, like I said, 20 years ago,ten years ago,
I wasn't ableI didn't have the confidence to show
or maybe not the confidence,but I didn't have the trust.
I didn't feel safe to show up as one
or the other, or sometimes neither.
(24:56):
It's exhausting,
and it makes you question who you areand why you are where you are.
So I think that it can also be a weakness.
I'll add on to that weakness.
I feel like the weakness of codeswitching is no matter what you do,
you can't control how other peopleview you.
(25:17):
You can't control that personviewing your identity as unworthy.
So as much as I code switch,that doesn't ensure
that I get what I deserveor that I feel safe.
Yeah, that.
Bar, you know, excellent. Kamari.
The strength of it,just as Kamari described it.
Maybe you have an opportunityand you recognize you're in the situation,
(25:39):
so you leverage it as a tool to sort ofaccomplish what you want to accomplish.
The weakness of it, of course, is
the detrimental impactit has on some folks that are
really internalizingwhy they're in a certain situation,
that they can't be who they are,because it's going to have a detrimental
impact on their abilityto experience certain
(26:02):
freedoms and, you know, their livelihood,you know, opportunities,
I think, would be to really learnhow to navigate
interpersonal relationshipsin a way that is respectful
to both who you are as a person,but also the individual or individuals
with whom you're interacting at the timeyou're interacting, and threats.
(26:25):
Again, threats would be,
you know,some people are really internalizing.
And so when an individualis really experiencing
like emotional distress, it's importantfor them to take care of self.
So you may need to talk to someone. Right.
But in the workplace specifically,you do probably want to reach out
(26:47):
to your human resourcedepartment is not a plug for HR.
I say thatbecause there are other behaviors
that are going on that's triggering
some of the whole phenomena behind.
I need to talk different, act differently.
And so they've internalized that to sayI need to assimilate,
(27:08):
I need to act differently.
I can't be who I am.
Something you said made me think about
something I struggle withfor a little bit of time.
When you were talking about opportunities,you were saying
that it presents an opportunity to connectand communicate with different people.
And I think
that's how I justified it myself.
(27:29):
I'm like, oh, I'm learninghow to communicate with different people
and connect with different people,and I love connecting with people.
So I'm like, oh yeah, that's a superpower.
That's a great thing.
But then it became thatI was the one expected always to do that.
No one was everexpected to do that for me.
And I think that'swhen we're playing into white supremacy.
(27:51):
Yeah, that's for me.
When it became a threat, it becamea threat to my existence as a human being.
And my in my some of my earliestexperiences with code switching,
I felt like I needed
for the people in the roomto know that I was one of the good guys,
which I later realized came from,
that suppression that I had experienced toto to be different
(28:13):
because you want to appealand get closer to,
getting closer and proximity to whitenessas a means for career success.
So I became so fed up with it that I beganto weaponize my code switching.
And that's why I.
Code switching is threateningbecause it can also be co-opted.
So I was doing it as a method of survivalfor myself.
I needed to prove to myself,to show myself
(28:34):
that I could bring myself to any spaceand still be successful.
However, because I was so upset and angryabout where
I was, I wanted to make everybodyin the room uncomfortable.
And so I began to weaponize it in a waythat was detrimental to my own mental
and spiritual health.
But I think that I had to learn that
if I'm going to code switch for anybody,it needs to be for myself.
(28:57):
It needs to be for the benefit of howI feel in a particular space, to be safe
at the time, and not for the comfortor betterment or anyone else's around.
Thank you for that, Kamari.
I want to say one thing.
I totally understand what you just said.
I. I have
also had the conversationwhere in an individual's attempt
to connect to their, black coworkers,
(29:21):
those black coworkers were upsetbecause they felt
like they were being mocked and parodybecause they were trying.
That person was trying to connect,like using their slang.
That's why I say be yourself,right? Right.
Because who owns the rules?
Who? Who's the gatekeeper?
I don't know, show up as yourself.
(29:42):
And I think that's the real strength.
We got in just a few minutes left.
I want to leave with a question thathopefully you can answer from your own
personal perspective to offerfor those who may need to hear it.
What is one thing that you do every dayto affirm your identity?
Self-affirmation.
That's that's pretty deep, but, not to go down too deep.
(30:03):
Like definitely.
One thing I am personally against wears
is I just thank God for another day.
I mean, just that thank Godfor another day.
I have a Bible verse that comes up,but I do that.
And then in fact,
like so when people say, well,
yeah, he was trying to preach, I'mfar from a preacher, but that's really it.
(30:24):
That's that rightthere is like something I do every day.
I listen to my music on the way here.
My music's on and the artiststhat I personally choose before I show up
to spaces where it's majority non-black,
it's always artists that I am.
It's not like a, a, a code, but it'sa cultural thing that is just understood.
(30:49):
Like my favorite rappersAndre 3001, Andre, Say something.
You got to have that feeling.
You had to experience it to understandwhat he's talking about.
Or does it make sense?
I feel like you understand me. You see me?
so I listen to my music.
I was just going to say really quickly.
I stand in silence,standing, silence, giving,
(31:12):
realizing that life is a vapor.
So it's like, be grateful, be thankful.
So that's kind of my daily affirmation,realizing that nothing is guaranteed.
I think that's really important, you know?
So that's how I affirm who I am, similar
to listening to your music in me,it's part music.
It's also the clothes I wear.
(31:33):
I use my clothes to represent who I amand feel good in my
my own skinand and I can feel a difference
when I'm dressed like this versuswhen I've got jeans and a t shirt on.
I'm less questioning,you know, I mentioned I
because of my mental illness,I, I question every day,
(31:54):
every moment of every day who I am.
but when I dress the way I like to dress,
I'm so comfortable in my own skin
that I can let someof the other stuff go and
and feel more powerful.
Every morning I just listening to myself,
(32:17):
my inner self, and ask myself, like,what are you trying to say?
It's either me or God.
You know, just like wewe shouldn't say anything.
And then at the end of the day,I ask myself, did you answer the question?
Did you livewhatever the message came for me today
and then I do like you do.
(32:38):
Michelle reflect. And I said,
did I do so?
And so did I offendor did I come off a certain way
and I just kind of sit with that,kind of like having this inner check.
That's how I, affirm myself every dayby just listening.
I love that the inner chest, when Itell you that was a critical conversation.
(32:58):
That was a critical conversation.
I want to say thank you to our panelist,
our media team, our producer Eric Roomand his staff, as well
as Brenda Cruz and all of the othersthat worked so hard to put this together.
We truly appreciate you.
Hey, listen, we've got another episodecoming up for you in late April.
That's going to be our season
finale for episodes this season,and we're going to be back on the floor.
(33:22):
So rack with this againin about a month or so
and will engagein some more critical conversations.
As I stated before, hang in there.
Everything's going to work out,everything's going to be fine.
And I know that may seem cliche,but trust me,
those words mean a lot when you're goingthrough it in a way that Dr.
Practitioners are.
We will continue to be vigilant.
We will continue to do this work
(33:43):
and we will continue to fightfor those who need us the most.
We'll see you next time on the CriticalConversations podcast, everyone.
Thanks again. Peace.
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