February 4, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, host Scot Loyd and co-host Daniela Mesteneck Young engage in a deep conversation with Chloe Nwangwu, a brand scientist. They explore the concept of under recognition, the importance of branding in social influence, and the role of conflict mediation in understanding societal dynamics. Chloe shares her journey from conflict resolution to branding, emphasizing the significance of visibility and recognition in creating impactful change. The discussion also touches on the mythical norm, the dangers of echo chambers, and the necessity of diversity in combating misinformation. The episode concludes with insights into Chloe's methodology for building influence and the importance of acknowledging trauma in social movements.
Connect with Chloé Nwangwu
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So I want you to imagine that you are in a desert and you've been in this desert for daysand you are thirsty AF, right?
(00:07):
Like you're so thirsty and you're at this point sort of like crawling through this desertand then you see off in the distance a sort of shimmering mirage that appears to be an
oasis.
And so like you like scrabble your way there with the last of your energy.
Hurrah, it turns out to in fact be an oasis.
You dunk your head into the water, you come out, and the first syllable out of your mouthis, hmm.
(00:36):
That's the first syllable of my first name.
And so that name is pronounced, mm-ah-dee-no-bee.
My denovi.
Beautiful, correct, there you go.
Madinobi.
(01:21):
Welcome to another edition of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd along with the knitting cult lady, Daniela Mesteneck Young.
Daniela, how are you doing tonight?
You know, I am recovering from the shock and awe campaign.
And yesterday I was feeling pretty down, but then I slept for 12 hours and I woke up likemore ready to like plan and prepare and fight and have the important conversations and do
(01:52):
the things.
And I'm really excited to talk to Chloe.
We were connected by somebody really cool.
I didn't like, people like...
Chloe fascinate me as far as like 10 years old, made a decision, chose to be something andthen like went and did it.
(02:13):
Of course coming from a cult, know, I don't even know that you have like these options ofcareers.
Anyways, Chloe, we would love to hear about you.
Hi, thank you so much.
Hi.
I'm delighted to be here, honored.
And yeah, about me.
(02:34):
Well, my peers call me the brand scientist.
And that's because I use all manner of sciency things like behavioral and network scienceto make sure that the folks that I work with
have their ideas get the attention and recognition they deserve in the rooms that have themost impact and influence on our society.
(02:55):
That's like in a nutshell, that's what I do.
Yeah, and the key, the key I would say,
maybe angle that I'm coming at things from is from this angle of unrecognition, which is aphenomenon that I sort of like noted and then named and coined and like have been speaking
(03:20):
about ever since.
And so ultimately the idea is that the folks that I work with are dealing with underrecognition and I use my stuff to fix that.
Chloe, was watching some of your material and content today and I was really impressed,first of all, with just how smart you are.
(03:44):
I mean, the fact that, wow, I'm struggling to keep up here, but some things that you saidreally impressed me in the context of what we talk about on this program that Daniela has
rightfully pointed out over and over again that in the United States,
We deal with cults, obviously, individual cults, but then there is like this meta-cult of,I believe I heard somebody refer to it as a mythical norm, right?
(04:16):
Okay, well, yep.
So we'll keep talking.
Can you talk a little bit about the conflict mediation stuff in your past?
Just because I think this all ties together in super interesting ways, the things that youdo.
yeah, absolutely.
(04:37):
So, as you said, I am a conflict mediator by training.
I went to school for international conflict resolution and mediation.
And so I was trained to facilitate peace negotiations in the context of civil war and, youknow, international conflict as well.
(04:57):
And
I learned all of this, the bulk, what did say?
The bulk of my training.
I'll say my masters, right?
My grad degree.
I got in Israel of all places and that was an intentional choice.
Like I went to Israel because I was like, I wanna study this intractable conflict and Ihave already begun to study it from the Arab side.
(05:22):
So let me go to Israel and see what's happening on the ground here so that I don't justhave like the wider Arab.
perspective as in like, what does Egypt feel?
What does Jordan feel?
Right.
But I also have like, what about the Arab Israelis?
Right.
What about the Palestinians?
What about the Gazans?
And then of course, like, what about the Israelis?
(05:44):
I just I wanted to understand conflict.
And so that is it is one of the longest running conflicts.
And so that's why I went to Israel to study it.
Of course, now that I have
Now that I matured as a practitioner, know that there are other longer standing conflicts.
But at the time I was like, yeah, this is like one of the big ones.
(06:07):
Let me go here and study it.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so then you make this, I'm sure it's not a leap, I'm sure there was a whole paththat made sense, right?
From conflict mediator and you're doing these things in other countries and now you'reworking on under recognition, such a great term.
(06:28):
thank you.
Thank you so much.
yeah, I mean, and I could understand how anyone who sort of looks at where I am and what Iwas doing, I can see why folks would be like, hmm, feels like a jump.
So and here's why it's not.
Here's why that progression was actually a lot more subtle than it seems from the outside.
(06:51):
I was working on that.
This is something that dawned on me slowly over time, but I think
that it happened the most intensely when I was working on the civil war in Yemen.
I was a very junior member of a team that had been brought on by a pretty sizable ethnicminority in Yemen.
(07:15):
And they brought us on because they weren't a part of the UN peace talks and they wantedto be, right?
Now, my specialty within the whole conflict resolution and mediation space was veryspecifically using what we know about the human mind and what we know about like human
social dynamics and the ways in which those things interface to make peace settlementsmore likely to happen and more likely to last.
(07:41):
And so from that perspective, I knew that this ethnic minority really should have been atthe table if...
whatever peace settlement that was gonna happen was gonna be sustainable or was gonna lastpast five or 10 years.
And so that led me to this, reckoning sounds dramatic, but like it kind of was where I'mlike, okay, as a mediator, I do have some control over the dynamics within a room, but I
(08:06):
don't necessarily have any control over who gets into the room.
And...
as evidenced by this situation, that's a problem, right?
Because these folks who really should have been at the table weren't even getting in thedoor.
And so that is what really began my sort of research spiral, maybe we'll say, into tryingto understand what had happened here.
(08:31):
Like, how did we even get to this set of events, right?
And that's despite the fact that all the things that we up until
now have been saying need to be true in order to prevent this sort of thing fromhappening, right?
So like, everyone's like very highly educated.
(08:52):
Everyone has like the best intentions.
People are looking to pay attention to their biases and that sort of thing.
you know, like all of those things that we say, hey, like this stuff has to be true inorder to prevent something like this from happening.
Those things were true and it was still happening, right?
And so...
That's really what like made me go like, okay, like there's something, there's somethinggoing on here.
(09:17):
There's something up here.
And I did come upon this phenomenon of under recognition, right?
And the reason that I then ended up where I am right now and being called the brandscientist is because I realized that the answer to this was actually brands, right?
(09:38):
That...
Every single nation state that I had either interfaced with or had bilaterals with or likewhatever context, right?
Every single nation state has a brand, right?
That's why you don't make certain moves with like Germany or France because their brandsinform you how they will respond.
(10:02):
Brands teach others how to treat you.
And so what I realized is that, okay, if we can shape these brands appropriately,
for folks like these, this ethnic minority that wasn't at the table.
If we can do that, then we can not only get them access into these rooms, but we can makesure that they have influence when they do so.
(10:24):
And so that's kind how I got to where I am and why I do what I do.
By the way, kind of amazing what has been going on right now and what I've been talkingabout is people keep making these connections right now, of course, with Donald Trump and
what went on in Germany.
(10:44):
And I'm like, but what we keep leaving out is America's brand.
And in Germany, studied, not as cool as studying abroad in Israel, but I did a semester inGermany.
Hmm.
the Germans themselves will make a joke that the reason Germany has never had a popularrevolution is because the peasants couldn't afford the train fare.
(11:08):
And so I keep reminding people, know, like in America, we'll rip up your train lines,right?
Like very different attitudes.
But yeah, it's so, you know, like the brand and the story that you're telling, I think itis...
You know, it's this month exactly I'm writing about cult language and the way that cultleaders use language to sell their story, right?
(11:38):
Because a cult is a group formed around a lie, oftentimes with bad stereotypes, right?
And like, you know, you have to have an enemy, you have to paint someone, but likelanguage is such a thing we're willing to change about ourselves.
Yeah.
we slowly don't notice things.
(12:01):
But then I also think of what you do and this larger plan to keep some people out of thespotlight and underrepresented.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
there's so much I could say here, my goodness.
(12:21):
So, where do I even want to start?
Okay, so I feel like I want to start with some definitions that might make, that might beuseful maybe for our listeners and also for the conversation.
So first thing that I will say is that a brand, right?
I know that there are as many definitions of what a brand is as there are people to givethem.
(12:44):
I'm sure people listening to this are probably sick of hearing what a brand actually is,air quotes.
So I'm not going to do that necessarily.
I will say that from a scientific perspective, this is what a brand likely is, right?
And it is a system of ideas that influences the behavior of other people.
(13:07):
said another way, it's a kind of influential real estate in someone's head, right?
And so everything that you're saying, right, like completely tracks, especially now whenyou're talking about language, which I would consider not the brand itself, right, but a
brand asset, right?
So think about it like branding, right?
(13:28):
A brand's branding is really just a brand's memorable assets.
It's the thing that the brand can use as memory anchors, like as
hooks in the different parts of your memory network to make sure that this system of ideasis connected to all of the chains of behavior that they would like to be connected to,
(13:51):
right?
So that they can influence those chains of behavior.
And language is absolutely one of the most rich avenues for developing that, right?
So there's so much.
you know, I've just been through the master's degree crash course on how branding workswhen I was trying to brand myself as group behavior gal and this is what I do.
(14:18):
And I built up this huge platform and then I got kicked off.
And so then I came back and I called myself Knitting Cult Lady and like, that was it.
It took off, you know.
Then of course I started referring to my spouse as Mr.
Knitting Cult Lady and then my child as Knitting Cult Baby and then we have Knitted CultPuppy and Knitting Cult Chats and now I've done like a knitting cult book, like a knitting
(14:49):
patterns book that also educates people about components of cults.
But anyway.
And that's too funny.
And then ever since the election though, I've just been like, captain calm down.
So now I'm like bringing in the military side of me to just like walk people through, youknow, some of the reality stuff, but even what you're talking about in language, right?
(15:16):
And I was like, I literally sit here every morning and I just casually and calmly.
talk to people about what's going on and what's the threat and what's the reality becauselike all of that is so important and just like giving context to it but also still being
able to like, I don't know, think about what we're gonna do next.
(15:41):
what we're gonna do and also like doing that whilst also like self-regulating, right?
Because having us dysregulated is also a huge part of the strategy, right?
So I just, I mean, so one of the things that has been interesting in the course of recentevents is that a lot of my work,
(16:10):
has started being framed as like, like the science of resistance.
Do you know I mean?
Right?
Where, because, because at the end of the day, like what I'm talking about is, isinfluence, right?
It's making sure that you have an influential idea and that you are able to get thatinfluential idea into influential spaces and places, right?
(16:33):
And that once it is there, it does its job, right?
That like,
exposure to that idea means commitment to that idea, right?
Like that's really what all of this work is about, right?
And so it's just really interesting to see how the last couple of months have shifted thatfrom like, I guess like change the world with your world-changing idea to...
(17:04):
no, you're part of the resistance now and a successful resistance looks like this, right?
So just very interesting to see that change.
And so like, I'm also noting just from what you've told me about where your work has beengoing, that there's been that shift as well.
So that's curious to me.
That's really interesting.
There really has and I've been just talking about how like, know what, I thought I wasgonna run away and go live in another country and then like, I was like, do I have to stay
(17:35):
and train the resistance?
know, is this our life?
Is this gonna be our job now?
Yeah.
And it kind of looks like yes.
And that's honestly what I get for calling myself professional rebel scum.
Like literally calling myself that.
It's just what I get.
Like that's, I did that to myself.
(17:57):
I feel the same way because I kept saying, know, y'all I study bad groups and bad leaders,right?
I'm still just your friendly neighborhood intelligence officer.
And now like my morning cult briefs, I just call them America threat briefs, you know,like we're just like, I'm just doing this now.
But you know, language is important, but also representation, obviously in preaching tothe choir, but something that just happened this week.
(18:26):
the, we're not gonna have this woke army.
So we're putting a freeze on DEI, right?
And so the Air Force took down mention of the Tuskegee Airmen and women pilots in WorldWar II.
And there was such an outcry from the American people that they put it back two dayslater, right?
(18:49):
Like it was down for the weekend.
Yeah.
actually, because I had been talking about malicious compliance and like service membersstanding up and someone asked me like, do you think that was malicious compliance?
And like, maybe, you know, maybe someone was like, but like, once you get thatrepresentation in the door, once like those things are set into history and put there and
(19:14):
talked about, like, it doesn't just erase that easily, you know?
And I think like,
that's exactly right.
Sorry, go ahead.
it's just like, I think there's part of like everyone acting like, he's just gonna endAmerica, right?
Like, boom, it's over.
And it's like, I'm like, no, he's gonna do a lot of things and he's gonna punch a lot ofholes.
(19:39):
But like, this has also been a thing that's built up a lot, right?
And then there's all these people to, as you said, to resist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so like, so that's, that's also something that gives me that encourages me right thatlike
(20:04):
What's happening now, right, is that folks in that particular camp, right, are trying tochip away at what are already social norms, right?
(20:24):
And that already sort of puts them on the back foot.
right, because they're trying to take something away that is already there, right?
It's harder to put something in place than it is to maintain that thing, right?
(20:46):
So we, in a lot of ways, despite how bleak things seem, we do have the advantage.
However, however, right, I cannot stress enough that
they are aware that what they are trying to chip away at are social norms.
And so they've been going at it in the way that you attack social norms, right?
(21:10):
And so what that means is that what's left to us is to maintain the social norms that keepus safe, but also to take some of the resistance as it were underground.
Right?
(21:30):
Like, and this is, some of this is coming from like, like the network science of it all,right?
But network science has shown us that there is less resistance to change on the fringes.
In fact, that's part of what happened with like the advent of Trump and his ilk, right?
(21:51):
They started on the fringes where there was less resistance to the adoption of thisparticular idea.
And then they reached a tipping point.
and then cascaded, right?
And so a lot of what we are gonna have to end up doing ourselves is, again, yes,maintaining the social norms that keep us safe, right?
But also doing a bit of that engineering ourselves, right?
(22:15):
And that absolutely means starting in the places where there is less resistance to changeand building up that critical mass.
and then once we've hit that critical mass, making sure that we continue to defend thatcritical mass, right?
Because I think that's something that is really easy to do.
(22:36):
And in a lot of ways, it looks like we might have done and that we sort of got comfortablewith how things were.
And we're like, yeah, like stuff, stuff isn't really going to change.
And I think that's why Trump was so surprising when he came about the first time, becausewe were all sort of like, well, he's just ridiculous.
Yes.
And.
Right?
(22:57):
So, so there's sort of like a two part strategy here.
And knowing that I think it's important for folks to decide where it is they feel liketheir role is, right?
Because you don't necessarily need to be doing both.
(23:19):
And in fact, it may not be wise to do both, right?
So like, figure out what your role is in the larger
ecosystem and then, you know, get, work.
Yeah.
I mean, there's OK.
So for listeners, they know I have my second podcast, which is Hey White Woman, and it'sme and a black creator called White Woman Whisperer.
(23:41):
And we just sit and deconstruct the cult of white supremacy.
And so we're talking about now about how like we probably have to build an army ofanti-racist Amy's that can just like go out and like use.
our powerful voices and our control of trillions of dollars to like protect other peoplethat are going to be targeted.
(24:08):
You know, so I just wanted to bring this up to talk about too, because I think like a lotof that is really important.
And you know, one of the things I've been going through with Pete Hegseth being confirmedas the Secretary of Defense, right?
This is like the worst
vet bro that we all hated.
We women knew we weren't safe around, but like the bros knew he would lie to get you outof war crimes, right?
(24:35):
Like that, you know, he has white supremacist tattoos.
He doesn't think women should be in combat.
I was one of the women on the first ground combat teams, right?
Like very proud of it, wrote a book.
But when I stop and think about they've been weaponizing
America doesn't want to see dead ladies.
(24:57):
America doesn't want to see dead mothers.
And of course they mean white, right?
Well, like we can use that, right?
America doesn't want to see dead white lady mothers, right?
So like, I keep hearing people talk about martial law, right?
And I'm like, first of all, the American army knows quite well.
(25:20):
It is quite fresh.
the knowledge that we could not occupy a place like America.
But second of all, they declare martial law, and I'm talking to white women right now, getout of your houses, flood the streets.
They're not sending 25-year-old captains, they're not sending 20-year-old kids that areall the same colors and races and genres as the rest of us down your streets.
(25:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
these are the things we're joking on the other podcasts that our military maneuvers and wecall just the tip.
We're gonna put all the white ladies right at the front and just like march.
Incredible.
And also, Like, true.
(26:17):
Right?
Like...
this is what I keep saying, right?
And like, I live in Maryland and we try to practice this when like you see copsinteracting with black people, you pull over and you observe.
And it's like, they're not gonna mow me down.
And then the revolutionary part of me is like, and if they did, how fast would that be onthe news, right?
(26:42):
Like how fast would that revolt come?
So like,
specifically white women, think about how we are protecting our black and brown neighborsand the people that we know that they're gonna be coming for in understanding that 48 % of
us didn't vote for that guy and we can use the whiteness as a shield and we can use it asa weapon against them.
(27:13):
my gosh.
it's also crazy to me that we're having like discussions about revolution in 2025 America.
I know, I know, I know.
also, is it?
I don't know.
Yeah.
(27:34):
And also maybe did this need to happen?
Right?
Like I'm wondering, sometimes I wonder.
like genuinely I do not wish the fresh hell that all of this madness is visiting uponpeople.
Like I don't wish it on anyone.
And at the same time.
(28:04):
I mean, this is the country we live in, right?
Like, this is the country as it is.
We just, you know, some of us just didn't realize, you know?
So.
black woman I have talked to since the election has said.
(28:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also think part of the answer right now speaking of under representation of peoplesaying, what do we do?
It's like, go listen to black women.
Go listen to the people who have been doing this, who have masters degrees in crisismanagement.
(28:46):
But also like communities that have been doing this forever because have always known thatthis is the America that we live in.
Correct, correct.
And I'm continually learning every day with my explanations to also, you know, like itreally is influencing tons of people.
(29:07):
Something else I think of is just like the trauma in communities after this, you know, andlike when you're in crisis mode, you just keep pushing and keep planning and keep going.
But so often we don't like.
heal and acknowledge the trauma and I'm just like
(29:29):
I'm like, I think this is also a huge part.
And like maybe I'm like heading off the reservation now in terms of like topic and what wewant to talk about, but I think this is also a part of a big part of why a lot of black
women are sort of just like, I'm going to rest now.
(29:50):
Like you all do you, the 98 % or 92 % or whatever it was, like we're going to brunch andthat's...
That's good day, good day, right?
Because I think that there is a lot of, a lot of healing and like reckoning with thattrauma that needs to happen with ourselves, with ourselves.
(30:22):
And that's.
to approve it or not, but yeah, to just like amplify that.
like, I totally get it.
I totally 100 % get why black women are like, no, we're done.
Like we tried, we really tried.
We got her this close.
Like white women, white women, we have failed.
We have failed over and over and over again.
(30:44):
And now I honestly think part of it is like, yeah, white women need to suffer.
And we will, right?
Like the promise of the cult is always a lie.
know, things are getting worse, not better.
This eventually affects everyone, you know.
And this actually reminds me of the point, poor Scott, I don't know what happened to him,but like this reminds me of the point that Scott was getting at, which is this idea of the
(31:11):
mythical norm, right?
So for those who are unfamiliar with what that is, that's a term that comes from AudreLorde.
And the mythical norm is essentially who society was designed to work for, right?
And mythical norm is a he.
who is white, straight, able-bodied, wealthy, educated, thin, relatively young.
(31:44):
Goodness, what else?
Cisgendered, did I mention straight?
Right, all of those things, right?
All of those things.
that are super angry right now.
Correct, correct.
And any deviation from that mythical norm introduces friction into your life.
(32:07):
Every deviation from that mythical norm increases the opportunities for under recognitionto take place.
Right?
And that's because the status quo has been set up to cater to this mythical norm.
Right?
So any behaviors that do not align with the status quo, we as human beings have been wiredto defend against them, right?
(32:35):
Like we've been wired to defend the status quo actually.
And that's no matter how unjust or how not great for us that status quo happens to be.
So that's why behavior change in general is uncomfortable.
It's also why it's really difficult for behavior change along these lines to take place.
(32:58):
Like that's why it's difficult.
So yeah, sorry, go ahead.
such cult theory, like this is how cults work.
So like in the children of God, when our leader died and his cray cray lady took over, sheput out this crazy doctrine, which was basically adults having sex with Jesus in their
(33:23):
minds while they're having sex with each other.
crazy, right?
And there was, was a whole series and they were given very specific instructions that Ifind fascinating, which was that nobody was to read it alone.
Like it was intended to be read in a group, but if you were like, you know, the one onchildcare or the one, whatever, like you weren't to just catch up with it on your own,
(33:53):
right?
And this is because social proof, which I'm sure you are.
wildly familiar with, right?
But like, as everyone is thinking, this is crazy, but they're looking around and nobodyelse is saying anything.
So they're like, okay.
I'm the only one that thinks this is crazy.
You know, and I say sometimes with the whole Emperor has no clothes thing, right?
(34:19):
They're like, we like to think that when the child says it, we
We all see, but I think what happens is we take the child out back and beat them forsaying it and continue on.
And this also brings up the idea of adoption thresholds, which is something that
(34:40):
is really, it's like a very basic concept that's really core to network science.
And it's essentially just the idea that like every single person in a network of peoplehas an adoption threshold, right?
So it's the number of people that they need to see in their sort of close knit communitywho has adopted a behavior before they too will then adopt said behavior, right?
(35:02):
So like that's also absolutely what was happening in that scenario, right?
That like,
By themselves, that person's adoption threshold probably would not have been met becausethis idea was so off the reservation, right?
But when you are together in a group and there's no overwhelming dissent or anythingthat's coming through, it looks like everyone around you is adopting it.
(35:28):
And so that overcomes your adoption threshold, right?
So that's another thing that's absolutely taking place.
is why it's so relevant that the outgoing president of the United States was remindingsoldiers of their oaths, right?
It was like reminding them that in the American military, we are all individually supposedto assess whether orders are illegal or immoral without following them.
(35:57):
that adoption threshold thing, mean so much.
in the military, right?
Like you do the craziest things and we literally will say to each other like, you just gotto drink the Kool-Aid, you know, just to like justify doing silly things that we know are
silly, but we're doing them anyways.
(36:17):
Which is like, mean genuinely terrifying, like also, this is also what, and now we'regonna get into my, one of my, the things that I'm known on the internet to talk about, but
also is kind of like maybe a, like a niche.
(36:39):
like brand marketing, like those people world things.
So like, it may not be interesting to folks, but like, maybe it is.
We'll see.
We'll see.
And it's this, right?
That there is this thing that people do when they are trying to target a message to aspecific person.
(37:00):
they create what is called an ideal client avatar or something of that nature.
Right.
And that's because an ideal client avatar makes it really, really easy to talk to manydifferent people as if you're talking to one person.
Right.
That's why they do it.
Now, the issue with an ideal client avatar is the fact that all that it's doing really issegmenting the world or your market or whatever it happens to be.
(37:30):
demographically and psychographically if we're being really cutting edge, right?
For the uninitiated, demographics are like census level data.
So like your age, your gender, your race, stuff like that.
Psychographic information are things like your hobbies, your preferences, right?
Things like that.
(37:51):
Do you prefer Hulu to Netflix, right?
That's a psychographic.
Now,
where this becomes problematic is when you start looking at the effect that that has ongroups of people, right?
Because when you segment people so that they are both demographically andpsychographically homogenous, what that creates is the dangerous kind of echo chamber that
(38:21):
has led to a lot of the violence that we see now exploding across our television screens,right?
And that's because those networks of people lack the countervailing forces to prevent thespread of disinformation and misinformation, the kind of stuff that can intentionally be
deployed in the case of disinformation to manipulate people's perspectives and influencethem into dangerous, risky behaviors that they might not otherwise participate in.
(38:51):
And the kind of countervailing forces that prevent something like that are
get this, diversity, right?
Diversity of experience, diversity of, like demographic diversity and psychographicdiversity specifically, right?
Like if we're gonna put two fine points on it.
this is why I almost think it's almost humorous, the whole trying to walk back diversityinitiatives in the military, because we know it's made it better, as it always does,
(39:23):
right?
It has shown us things we don't know.
But also, so I think with cults.
And people are like, well, both sides are cults.
And I'm like, okay, yes.
In a two-party system, in a black and white system, by definition, it is culty and thesetactics are used and influence and blah, blah.
(39:49):
But 50 years ago, one side made one, what do you call it?
Like avatar.
We only care about cisgender white Christian men.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
going back to language and influence and disinformation, right?
It's like they've been speaking with one voice, with one message, with one simple answer,right?
(40:14):
Which simple answers don't exist.
We know on this podcast, okay.
I always say anyone giving you a simple answer to a complex problem is trying to cult youor con you, you know?
And so, you know, and then people are like, okay, well,
How do you know both sides are in a cult?
And I'm like, okay, here's a simple test you can run.
(40:38):
Think about someone on the other side, right?
If I had one of my people that I'm thinking about on the other side in my power for twoweeks, like they were children or their leg was broken or somehow they had to do whatever
you said, how many diverse perspectives could I expose them to?
And it's about 25, I have counted, right?
(40:59):
And if they have me,
It would be one.
It would be one.
And cults rely on isolation.
That's part of why, ironically, even though the internet has helped get a lot of peopleout of cults, like I think was kind of the end of Children of God and maybe even now the
Mormons, but like it's also amplified these echo chambers that we are in in society.
(41:27):
Yeah, that's right.
in really
frustrating and terrifying ways.
And so that's why the equity and inclusion piece is so existentially important, right?
(41:47):
Because it is that very piece that prevents those echo chambers from becoming thedangerous kind, right?
And this isn't to say that like...
like echo chambers by themselves are bad, right?
Because there are echo chambers that have like this diversity of thought and opinion andeverything.
And they're echo chambers because like we share values, right?
(42:09):
But that doesn't necessarily mean that we share like opinions or like even perspectives,right?
Like we share values.
So like we believe certain truths to be self-evident, right?
And this is also why I always stress that folks focus on the under recognition piecerather than the under representation piece, right?
(42:39):
Because under representation is a symptom of under recognition.
And when we try to solve for the under representation piece, so many things happen, right?
But like one, we put the impetus on the underrepresented person to solve the problem,right?
Mm-hmm.
we pretend that there isn't an active agent that is causing that under-representation tobe the case in the first place, right?
(43:06):
And then three, even when we try to solve for the under-representation problem, we end upcreating a whole bunch of new ones because we're not creating the environment or the
context that's necessary to protect that person, right, or those people.
And so we have...
then we have the tokenization, right?
Then we have folks who are essentially set up to fail and then like we sort of like winknudge when they don't manage to beat the odds again.
(43:37):
But when we solve for under recognition, we sort of circumnavigate a lot of those things.
And we say like, okay, there's someone who's doing the under recognizing.
So they are the source, right?
Like they are the folks that we want to focus on.
And
And it also forces us to...
(44:04):
acknowledge that the changes that need to be put in place in order to make a behaviorchange sustainable, that those things are going to be uncomfortable.
Right?
That like...
(44:25):
On the one hand, if you are forced to represent people, right, you don't have to do thatto an uncomfortable degree.
And in fact, people often don't.
That's why we have the problems that we currently have.
If you are forced to recognize someone, right, that you wouldn't otherwise have recognizedbefore, that's a different thing entirely.
(44:48):
Yeah.
I like that.
It's a great way of thinking about it.
So have you written a book?
This is so stupid.
No, but you are literally the second person to ask me that today.
And I'm, it's, it's, it's on the list.
Like it's, it's coming.
Yeah.
It's on the list and it's coming.
(45:12):
Well, I figured out the magic sauce of how to sell books on the internet.
So, you know.
That's true.
We should talk about that.
How do people work with you?
Like, what does that look like?
Yeah, absolutely.
um, I, yeah, no, yes, it's honestly, of course, it definitely depends on who you are.
(45:41):
But the most general way that folks work with me is in my visibility engineering program,right?
And visibility engineering is just my methodology, right?
And
The idea is that we first assess where your, I call it your ecosystem of influence is andhow it's doing.
(46:08):
And I can talk more about what that is if that's interesting to folks, but we assess whereyour ecosystem of influence is, how it's doing, where it needs support.
Then we either build that ecosystem of influence or refine it.
And then we run it.
And your ecosystem of influence is essentially made out of three parts.
(46:31):
It is your platform, right?
So that's part number one, your circle of recognition, which is part number two, and yourattention management system, which is part number three.
Now your platform, that's responsible for making sure that you and your work or your ideais the obvious choice for whatever, whatever it is you're trying to do.
(46:55):
Right?
You want to be framed as the obvious choice.
And when we're working on your platform, that means working on three things in particular.
First, it is your premise, right?
So your idea is about the world and how it can and should be different.
Your positioning, which is all about what makes your premise distinct.
(47:18):
And I want to take a moment here and say distinct and not differentiated.
Those are two different things.
One of them is really good for the brain and the other one is something that you shouldprobably avoid.
And then the third thing is your branding, right?
Like your memorable assets, making sure that those things reflect what you need them to,right?
(47:41):
So that's your platform.
And when you have all of those things essentially up to snuff, what that means is that youare the obvious choice to whoever you need to be the obvious choice to.
So that's the first piece of your ecosystem of influence.
Questions, thoughts, feelings, concerns.
Nope, you're just giving me so many ideas.
(48:01):
I'm like, yep, I'm still working on some of that, you know.
Okay.
Part two, part two of your ecosystem of influence is your circle of recognition, like Isaid, and that's responsible for making sure that the opportunities that you need to get
your ideas into those influential spaces you need them to be in, make sure that thoseopportunities are coming to you, right?
(48:26):
Now your circle of recognition was just fancy talk for your network, really.
but it's your network structured around the behavior of recognition, right?
And so this is something that folks often miss, that your network can be designed tobehave in a specific way and to bring about certain outcomes, right?
(48:48):
Most people have their network structured to amplify the sharing of information, right?
Which is great if you're trying to share the news.
or a cat meme, right?
But if you are someone who is in the business of changing hearts and minds and behavior,then you need your network to be structured to amplify your ideas in behavior changing
(49:13):
ways.
And that's going to look different than the sort of other orientation.
So that's sort of part two, making sure that you have a circle of recognition, that it isstructured appropriately.
and that you then know how to cultivate it and expand it when necessary.
So that's part two.
(49:34):
And then finally, we have your attention management system.
And this is responsible for making sure that you eventually reach what I call yourvisibility tipping point.
And that's the point at which your ideas catch on at a societal level, right?
This is when like,
like it clicks at that level and it starts to spread.
(50:00):
And the attention management system, what you are doing, right, or what it is, is it's asystem that allows you to gain, maintain, and translate the attention of all of your
stakeholders, right?
Like, remember, we talked about your circle of recognition, right, and that network.
(50:20):
you need to get those folks to move, right?
Like you need to get those folks to change their behavior in some way.
And that's what this does.
It allows you to maintain, like get their attention, maintain it, and then translate itinto those outcomes that you're looking for.
And to do that predictably and do that knowing that the various kinds of stakeholders thatyou have will mean that that process is going to look different for each of them.
(50:46):
So that's the third thing.
Yeah.
the way, I found out by dyeing a streak of purple into my hair that it grabs the attentionof all the bros who cannot stop themselves from commenting on the blue haired knitting
liberal.
And then they help my posts go viral and I make money.
And it's just like, I'm like, yup, I'm going every color of the rainbow now.
(51:16):
And that's like, that's a perfect example of sort of like motivational programs, actually,which is in Leshchapskaya's love that, which is a huge part of like shaping your attention
management system.
So those are the three things that are in your ecosystem of influence.
And when I'm working with folks, like I said, we start by assessing where yours currentlyis, then we either build it or refine it.
(51:44):
And then basically,
If you would like, I work with you in an ongoing capacity to support you as you buildtowards that visibility tipping point, right?
So as you are basically leveraging that attention management system.
So that's it in a slightly larger net.
me and Lizzie might have to bring you in to do some knitting cult lady stuff.
(52:07):
And also, by the way, I recently conceptualized a musical.
I haven't written it all yet, but I'm very excited about it.
It's Uncultured, the Cult Baby musical, and it's like Book of Mormon for all cult babiesmeets women soldiers on the stage.
Thank you.
we need to talk about this.
(52:27):
songs is called Skinny Skinny Blond Woman.
I'm so excited about it.
But anyway, one of the things I've literally been thinking and like low key studyingTay-Tay, right?
And just like, I've written some sick lines in my book and I have some snappers, but like,I need to set them to a sick beat, right?
(52:49):
Like I'm gonna get the deification of idiosyncrasy talked about in like.
I have another one that I'm so proud of that says, because we were delayed adolescence,now we're gonna have to have our delayed adolescence.
Okay, okay.
I don't know if people can hear that, but I'm doing the little goal slap.
(53:11):
do different things, anyway, the attention thing and the visibility thing that you saidmade me think about that.
I was like, yeah, like I really think there's different ways of getting like the messageout that makes it echo, echo in different ways.
That like reinforces the signal essentially, right?
(53:34):
Like, yeah, absolutely.
A thousand percent.
like the repeater tower for your ideas.
Yes!
Yes, bitch!
Love that idea.
I'll probably borrow it.
Sorry, flew a lot of rupia.
Missions, army.
That's the headspace you're in and I get it.
(53:55):
You know, I'm so glad that we had this conversation.
I'm so excited for our listeners to hear this.
You you were saying like, you don't know if this would be outside the scope of theconversation, but I'm like, ultimately, everything is groups and cults and culture and
influence, right?
(54:17):
We talk a lot on this podcast about how studying influence and the science of motivationand psychology the way you do is just a tool.
Tools can be used as weapons, but they can also be used as tools.
So often, it's interesting, so often what I see in cults is that was like white peopletook something that is a tool in a community of color, like chanting.
(54:47):
Yes.
Yeah.
use it as like a weapon in their groups, you know?
And then it's like, that's cult psychology right there.
So, you know, this is why we talk about the tactics and all these different topics.
think my theory is I get interesting people in the room and then we'll have goodconversations.
(55:09):
like, my special interest is I can tie everything to cults.
And we have somehow managed to do so.
I'm really proud of us.
we have.
I'm proud of us too.
Well, thank you so much.
We're gonna wanna know what is the best way for people to get ahold of you.
We will of course have all of Chloe's links in her or in the description.
(55:34):
If you are listening to this, please like and subscribe.
And if you are not seeing our beautiful faces, you can come watch us on YouTube or on thePatreon.
And Chloe, will you tell us your full name as well, please?
Yes, of course.
for those who are unfamiliar, my full full name is Madnoby, Chloe, Chodichima Wangu.
(56:03):
So that's my full full name.
My first first name is something that...
Here's how I help people learn how to pronounce it.
So I want you to imagine that you are in a desert and you've been in this desert for daysand you are thirsty AF, right?
Like you're so thirsty and you're at this point sort of like crawling through this desertand then you see off in the distance a sort of shimmering mirage that appears to be an
(56:33):
oasis.
And so like you like scrabble your way there with the last of your energy.
Hurrah, it turns out to in fact be an oasis.
You dunk your head into the water, you come out, and the first syllable out of your mouthis, hmm.
That's the first syllable of my first name.
(56:56):
And so that name is pronounced, mm-ah-dee-no-bee.
My denovi.
Beautiful, correct, there you go.
Madinobi.
Thank you.
description of a name that I have ever heard.
(57:17):
Thank you.
I aim to please.
my name means judged by God.
boy.
Well, in OBI actually means beauty in the heart.
So it does have a meaning.
It's lovely.
Just by God heavens.
Yeah.
Thank you.
(57:37):
I know when all the little girls are named like clarity and light and your name is judgedby god.
It's like, okay.
Thanks.
Thanks Every time i'm signing my book to a danielle or a danielle I always wonder like dothey know what their name means because they're about to because it's in there
(57:58):
my gosh.
everybody, please, I'm sorry, Chloe, did we say where to find you?
we didn't, but I like genuinely, I will include a resources page.
because there are lots of things that probably questions that came up.
But in general, you can find me doing my nerdy best on LinkedIn.
(58:20):
And like, I'm kind of sort of on Instagram, like there's a huge repository of like mybrand science stuff that's there.
And I'm always in stories sharing about under recognized leaders in the social impactspace doing incredible things, and why those things worked.
so that's something that's interesting to you.
Check me out there.
(58:42):
but yeah, otherwise like that's it.
I do have a nerd list.
If that's something that is cool for you, it's where I talk about, influence building andattention management from a scientific perspective, basically like, yeah, if you, if you
want to have a role in the resistance and you want science backed approaches to that, thenlike,
(59:07):
I talk about that there, so join the nerd list and you can see more about that.
Amazing, I haven't even heard of Nerdlist yet, but now I'm excited.
All right, thank you so much, Chloe.
This has been a wonderful discussion and everybody, thank you so much for listening toCults and the Culting of America.
(59:28):
Sorry that Scott had some technical problems, but what a great conversation anyways.
Thanks everybody, we'll see you later.
So I want you to imagine that you are in a desert and you've been in this desert for daysand you are thirsty AF, right?
(00:07):
Like you're so thirsty and you're at this point sort of like crawling through this desertand then you see off in the distance a sort of shimmering mirage that appears to be an
oasis.
And so like you like scrabble your way there with the last of your energy.
Hurrah, it turns out to in fact be an oasis.
You dunk your head into the water, you come out, and the first syllable out of your mouthis, hmm.
(00:36):
That's the first syllable of my first name.
And so that name is pronounced, mm-ah-dee-no-bee.
My denovi.
Beautiful, correct, there you go.
Madinobi.
(01:21):
Welcome to another edition of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd along with the knitting cult lady, Daniela Mesteneck Young.
Daniela, how are you doing tonight?
You know, I am recovering from the shock and awe campaign.
And yesterday I was feeling pretty down, but then I slept for 12 hours and I woke up likemore ready to like plan and prepare and fight and have the important conversations and do
(01:52):
the things.
And I'm really excited to talk to Chloe.
We were connected by somebody really cool.
I didn't like, people like...
Chloe fascinate me as far as like 10 years old, made a decision, chose to be something andthen like went and did it.
(02:13):
Of course coming from a cult, know, I don't even know that you have like these options ofcareers.
Anyways, Chloe, we would love to hear about you.
Hi, thank you so much.
Hi.
I'm delighted to be here, honored.
And yeah, about me.
(02:34):
Well, my peers call me the brand scientist.
And that's because I use all manner of sciency things like behavioral and network scienceto make sure that the folks that I work with
have their ideas get the attention and recognition they deserve in the rooms that have themost impact and influence on our society.
(02:55):
That's like in a nutshell, that's what I do.
Yeah, and the key, the key I would say,
maybe angle that I'm coming at things from is from this angle of unrecognition, which is aphenomenon that I sort of like noted and then named and coined and like have been speaking
(03:20):
about ever since.
And so ultimately the idea is that the folks that I work with are dealing with underrecognition and I use my stuff to fix that.
Chloe, was watching some of your material and content today and I was really impressed,first of all, with just how smart you are.
(03:44):
I mean, the fact that, wow, I'm struggling to keep up here, but some things that you saidreally impressed me in the context of what we talk about on this program that Daniela has
rightfully pointed out over and over again that in the United States,
We deal with cults, obviously, individual cults, but then there is like this meta-cult of,I believe I heard somebody refer to it as a mythical norm, right?
(04:16):
Okay, well, yep.
So we'll keep talking.
Can you talk a little bit about the conflict mediation stuff in your past?
Just because I think this all ties together in super interesting ways, the things that youdo.
yeah, absolutely.
(04:37):
So, as you said, I am a conflict mediator by training.
I went to school for international conflict resolution and mediation.
And so I was trained to facilitate peace negotiations in the context of civil war and, youknow, international conflict as well.
(04:57):
And
I learned all of this, the bulk, what did say?
The bulk of my training.
I'll say my masters, right?
My grad degree.
I got in Israel of all places and that was an intentional choice.
Like I went to Israel because I was like, I wanna study this intractable conflict and Ihave already begun to study it from the Arab side.
(05:22):
So let me go to Israel and see what's happening on the ground here so that I don't justhave like the wider Arab.
perspective as in like, what does Egypt feel?
What does Jordan feel?
Right.
But I also have like, what about the Arab Israelis?
Right.
What about the Palestinians?
What about the Gazans?
And then of course, like, what about the Israelis?
(05:44):
I just I wanted to understand conflict.
And so that is it is one of the longest running conflicts.
And so that's why I went to Israel to study it.
Of course, now that I have
Now that I matured as a practitioner, know that there are other longer standing conflicts.
But at the time I was like, yeah, this is like one of the big ones.
(06:07):
Let me go here and study it.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so then you make this, I'm sure it's not a leap, I'm sure there was a whole paththat made sense, right?
From conflict mediator and you're doing these things in other countries and now you'reworking on under recognition, such a great term.
(06:28):
thank you.
Thank you so much.
yeah, I mean, and I could understand how anyone who sort of looks at where I am and what Iwas doing, I can see why folks would be like, hmm, feels like a jump.
So and here's why it's not.
Here's why that progression was actually a lot more subtle than it seems from the outside.
(06:51):
I was working on that.
This is something that dawned on me slowly over time, but I think
that it happened the most intensely when I was working on the civil war in Yemen.
I was a very junior member of a team that had been brought on by a pretty sizable ethnicminority in Yemen.
(07:15):
And they brought us on because they weren't a part of the UN peace talks and they wantedto be, right?
Now, my specialty within the whole conflict resolution and mediation space was veryspecifically using what we know about the human mind and what we know about like human
social dynamics and the ways in which those things interface to make peace settlementsmore likely to happen and more likely to last.
(07:41):
And so from that perspective, I knew that this ethnic minority really should have been atthe table if...
whatever peace settlement that was gonna happen was gonna be sustainable or was gonna lastpast five or 10 years.
And so that led me to this, reckoning sounds dramatic, but like it kind of was where I'mlike, okay, as a mediator, I do have some control over the dynamics within a room, but I
(08:06):
don't necessarily have any control over who gets into the room.
And...
as evidenced by this situation, that's a problem, right?
Because these folks who really should have been at the table weren't even getting in thedoor.
And so that is what really began my sort of research spiral, maybe we'll say, into tryingto understand what had happened here.
(08:31):
Like, how did we even get to this set of events, right?
And that's despite the fact that all the things that we up until
now have been saying need to be true in order to prevent this sort of thing fromhappening, right?
So like, everyone's like very highly educated.
(08:52):
Everyone has like the best intentions.
People are looking to pay attention to their biases and that sort of thing.
you know, like all of those things that we say, hey, like this stuff has to be true inorder to prevent something like this from happening.
Those things were true and it was still happening, right?
And so...
That's really what like made me go like, okay, like there's something, there's somethinggoing on here.
(09:17):
There's something up here.
And I did come upon this phenomenon of under recognition, right?
And the reason that I then ended up where I am right now and being called the brandscientist is because I realized that the answer to this was actually brands, right?
(09:38):
That...
Every single nation state that I had either interfaced with or had bilaterals with or likewhatever context, right?
Every single nation state has a brand, right?
That's why you don't make certain moves with like Germany or France because their brandsinform you how they will respond.
(10:02):
Brands teach others how to treat you.
And so what I realized is that, okay, if we can shape these brands appropriately,
for folks like these, this ethnic minority that wasn't at the table.
If we can do that, then we can not only get them access into these rooms, but we can makesure that they have influence when they do so.
(10:24):
And so that's kind how I got to where I am and why I do what I do.
By the way, kind of amazing what has been going on right now and what I've been talkingabout is people keep making these connections right now, of course, with Donald Trump and
what went on in Germany.
(10:44):
And I'm like, but what we keep leaving out is America's brand.
And in Germany, studied, not as cool as studying abroad in Israel, but I did a semester inGermany.
Hmm.
the Germans themselves will make a joke that the reason Germany has never had a popularrevolution is because the peasants couldn't afford the train fare.
(11:08):
And so I keep reminding people, know, like in America, we'll rip up your train lines,right?
Like very different attitudes.
But yeah, it's so, you know, like the brand and the story that you're telling, I think itis...
You know, it's this month exactly I'm writing about cult language and the way that cultleaders use language to sell their story, right?
(11:38):
Because a cult is a group formed around a lie, oftentimes with bad stereotypes, right?
And like, you know, you have to have an enemy, you have to paint someone, but likelanguage is such a thing we're willing to change about ourselves.
Yeah.
we slowly don't notice things.
(12:01):
But then I also think of what you do and this larger plan to keep some people out of thespotlight and underrepresented.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
there's so much I could say here, my goodness.
(12:21):
So, where do I even want to start?
Okay, so I feel like I want to start with some definitions that might make, that might beuseful maybe for our listeners and also for the conversation.
So first thing that I will say is that a brand, right?
I know that there are as many definitions of what a brand is as there are people to givethem.
(12:44):
I'm sure people listening to this are probably sick of hearing what a brand actually is,air quotes.
So I'm not going to do that necessarily.
I will say that from a scientific perspective, this is what a brand likely is, right?
And it is a system of ideas that influences the behavior of other people.
(13:07):
said another way, it's a kind of influential real estate in someone's head, right?
And so everything that you're saying, right, like completely tracks, especially now whenyou're talking about language, which I would consider not the brand itself, right, but a
brand asset, right?
So think about it like branding, right?
(13:28):
A brand's branding is really just a brand's memorable assets.
It's the thing that the brand can use as memory anchors, like as
hooks in the different parts of your memory network to make sure that this system of ideasis connected to all of the chains of behavior that they would like to be connected to,
(13:51):
right?
So that they can influence those chains of behavior.
And language is absolutely one of the most rich avenues for developing that, right?
So there's so much.
you know, I've just been through the master's degree crash course on how branding workswhen I was trying to brand myself as group behavior gal and this is what I do.
(14:18):
And I built up this huge platform and then I got kicked off.
And so then I came back and I called myself Knitting Cult Lady and like, that was it.
It took off, you know.
Then of course I started referring to my spouse as Mr.
Knitting Cult Lady and then my child as Knitting Cult Baby and then we have Knitted CultPuppy and Knitting Cult Chats and now I've done like a knitting cult book, like a knitting
(14:49):
patterns book that also educates people about components of cults.
But anyway.
And that's too funny.
And then ever since the election though, I've just been like, captain calm down.
So now I'm like bringing in the military side of me to just like walk people through, youknow, some of the reality stuff, but even what you're talking about in language, right?
(15:16):
And I was like, I literally sit here every morning and I just casually and calmly.
talk to people about what's going on and what's the threat and what's the reality becauselike all of that is so important and just like giving context to it but also still being
able to like, I don't know, think about what we're gonna do next.
(15:41):
what we're gonna do and also like doing that whilst also like self-regulating, right?
Because having us dysregulated is also a huge part of the strategy, right?
So I just, I mean, so one of the things that has been interesting in the course of recentevents is that a lot of my work,
(16:10):
has started being framed as like, like the science of resistance.
Do you know I mean?
Right?
Where, because, because at the end of the day, like what I'm talking about is, isinfluence, right?
It's making sure that you have an influential idea and that you are able to get thatinfluential idea into influential spaces and places, right?
(16:33):
And that once it is there, it does its job, right?
That like,
exposure to that idea means commitment to that idea, right?
Like that's really what all of this work is about, right?
And so it's just really interesting to see how the last couple of months have shifted thatfrom like, I guess like change the world with your world-changing idea to...
(17:04):
no, you're part of the resistance now and a successful resistance looks like this, right?
So just very interesting to see that change.
And so like, I'm also noting just from what you've told me about where your work has beengoing, that there's been that shift as well.
So that's curious to me.
That's really interesting.
There really has and I've been just talking about how like, know what, I thought I wasgonna run away and go live in another country and then like, I was like, do I have to stay
(17:35):
and train the resistance?
know, is this our life?
Is this gonna be our job now?
Yeah.
And it kind of looks like yes.
And that's honestly what I get for calling myself professional rebel scum.
Like literally calling myself that.
It's just what I get.
Like that's, I did that to myself.
(17:57):
I feel the same way because I kept saying, know, y'all I study bad groups and bad leaders,right?
I'm still just your friendly neighborhood intelligence officer.
And now like my morning cult briefs, I just call them America threat briefs, you know,like we're just like, I'm just doing this now.
But you know, language is important, but also representation, obviously in preaching tothe choir, but something that just happened this week.
(18:26):
the, we're not gonna have this woke army.
So we're putting a freeze on DEI, right?
And so the Air Force took down mention of the Tuskegee Airmen and women pilots in WorldWar II.
And there was such an outcry from the American people that they put it back two dayslater, right?
(18:49):
Like it was down for the weekend.
Yeah.
actually, because I had been talking about malicious compliance and like service membersstanding up and someone asked me like, do you think that was malicious compliance?
And like, maybe, you know, maybe someone was like, but like, once you get thatrepresentation in the door, once like those things are set into history and put there and
(19:14):
talked about, like, it doesn't just erase that easily, you know?
And I think like,
that's exactly right.
Sorry, go ahead.
it's just like, I think there's part of like everyone acting like, he's just gonna endAmerica, right?
Like, boom, it's over.
And it's like, I'm like, no, he's gonna do a lot of things and he's gonna punch a lot ofholes.
(19:39):
But like, this has also been a thing that's built up a lot, right?
And then there's all these people to, as you said, to resist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so like, so that's, that's also something that gives me that encourages me right thatlike
(20:04):
What's happening now, right, is that folks in that particular camp, right, are trying tochip away at what are already social norms, right?
(20:24):
And that already sort of puts them on the back foot.
right, because they're trying to take something away that is already there, right?
It's harder to put something in place than it is to maintain that thing, right?
(20:46):
So we, in a lot of ways, despite how bleak things seem, we do have the advantage.
However, however, right, I cannot stress enough that
they are aware that what they are trying to chip away at are social norms.
And so they've been going at it in the way that you attack social norms, right?
(21:10):
And so what that means is that what's left to us is to maintain the social norms that keepus safe, but also to take some of the resistance as it were underground.
Right?
(21:30):
Like, and this is, some of this is coming from like, like the network science of it all,right?
But network science has shown us that there is less resistance to change on the fringes.
In fact, that's part of what happened with like the advent of Trump and his ilk, right?
(21:51):
They started on the fringes where there was less resistance to the adoption of thisparticular idea.
And then they reached a tipping point.
and then cascaded, right?
And so a lot of what we are gonna have to end up doing ourselves is, again, yes,maintaining the social norms that keep us safe, right?
But also doing a bit of that engineering ourselves, right?
(22:15):
And that absolutely means starting in the places where there is less resistance to changeand building up that critical mass.
and then once we've hit that critical mass, making sure that we continue to defend thatcritical mass, right?
Because I think that's something that is really easy to do.
(22:36):
And in a lot of ways, it looks like we might have done and that we sort of got comfortablewith how things were.
And we're like, yeah, like stuff, stuff isn't really going to change.
And I think that's why Trump was so surprising when he came about the first time, becausewe were all sort of like, well, he's just ridiculous.
Yes.
And.
Right?
(22:57):
So, so there's sort of like a two part strategy here.
And knowing that I think it's important for folks to decide where it is they feel liketheir role is, right?
Because you don't necessarily need to be doing both.
(23:19):
And in fact, it may not be wise to do both, right?
So like, figure out what your role is in the larger
ecosystem and then, you know, get, work.
Yeah.
I mean, there's OK.
So for listeners, they know I have my second podcast, which is Hey White Woman, and it'sme and a black creator called White Woman Whisperer.
(23:41):
And we just sit and deconstruct the cult of white supremacy.
And so we're talking about now about how like we probably have to build an army ofanti-racist Amy's that can just like go out and like use.
our powerful voices and our control of trillions of dollars to like protect other peoplethat are going to be targeted.
(24:08):
You know, so I just wanted to bring this up to talk about too, because I think like a lotof that is really important.
And you know, one of the things I've been going through with Pete Hegseth being confirmedas the Secretary of Defense, right?
This is like the worst
vet bro that we all hated.
We women knew we weren't safe around, but like the bros knew he would lie to get you outof war crimes, right?
(24:35):
Like that, you know, he has white supremacist tattoos.
He doesn't think women should be in combat.
I was one of the women on the first ground combat teams, right?
Like very proud of it, wrote a book.
But when I stop and think about they've been weaponizing
America doesn't want to see dead ladies.
(24:57):
America doesn't want to see dead mothers.
And of course they mean white, right?
Well, like we can use that, right?
America doesn't want to see dead white lady mothers, right?
So like, I keep hearing people talk about martial law, right?
And I'm like, first of all, the American army knows quite well.
(25:20):
It is quite fresh.
the knowledge that we could not occupy a place like America.
But second of all, they declare martial law, and I'm talking to white women right now, getout of your houses, flood the streets.
They're not sending 25-year-old captains, they're not sending 20-year-old kids that areall the same colors and races and genres as the rest of us down your streets.
(25:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
these are the things we're joking on the other podcasts that our military maneuvers and wecall just the tip.
We're gonna put all the white ladies right at the front and just like march.
Incredible.
And also, Like, true.
(26:17):
Right?
Like...
this is what I keep saying, right?
And like, I live in Maryland and we try to practice this when like you see copsinteracting with black people, you pull over and you observe.
And it's like, they're not gonna mow me down.
And then the revolutionary part of me is like, and if they did, how fast would that be onthe news, right?
(26:42):
Like how fast would that revolt come?
So like,
specifically white women, think about how we are protecting our black and brown neighborsand the people that we know that they're gonna be coming for in understanding that 48 % of
us didn't vote for that guy and we can use the whiteness as a shield and we can use it asa weapon against them.
(27:13):
my gosh.
it's also crazy to me that we're having like discussions about revolution in 2025 America.
I know, I know, I know.
also, is it?
I don't know.
Yeah.
(27:34):
And also maybe did this need to happen?
Right?
Like I'm wondering, sometimes I wonder.
like genuinely I do not wish the fresh hell that all of this madness is visiting uponpeople.
Like I don't wish it on anyone.
And at the same time.
(28:04):
I mean, this is the country we live in, right?
Like, this is the country as it is.
We just, you know, some of us just didn't realize, you know?
So.
black woman I have talked to since the election has said.
(28:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I also think part of the answer right now speaking of under representation of peoplesaying, what do we do?
It's like, go listen to black women.
Go listen to the people who have been doing this, who have masters degrees in crisismanagement.
(28:46):
But also like communities that have been doing this forever because have always known thatthis is the America that we live in.
Correct, correct.
And I'm continually learning every day with my explanations to also, you know, like itreally is influencing tons of people.
(29:07):
Something else I think of is just like the trauma in communities after this, you know, andlike when you're in crisis mode, you just keep pushing and keep planning and keep going.
But so often we don't like.
heal and acknowledge the trauma and I'm just like
(29:29):
I'm like, I think this is also a huge part.
And like maybe I'm like heading off the reservation now in terms of like topic and what wewant to talk about, but I think this is also a part of a big part of why a lot of black
women are sort of just like, I'm going to rest now.
(29:50):
Like you all do you, the 98 % or 92 % or whatever it was, like we're going to brunch andthat's...
That's good day, good day, right?
Because I think that there is a lot of, a lot of healing and like reckoning with thattrauma that needs to happen with ourselves, with ourselves.
(30:22):
And that's.
to approve it or not, but yeah, to just like amplify that.
like, I totally get it.
I totally 100 % get why black women are like, no, we're done.
Like we tried, we really tried.
We got her this close.
Like white women, white women, we have failed.
We have failed over and over and over again.
(30:44):
And now I honestly think part of it is like, yeah, white women need to suffer.
And we will, right?
Like the promise of the cult is always a lie.
know, things are getting worse, not better.
This eventually affects everyone, you know.
And this actually reminds me of the point, poor Scott, I don't know what happened to him,but like this reminds me of the point that Scott was getting at, which is this idea of the
(31:11):
mythical norm, right?
So for those who are unfamiliar with what that is, that's a term that comes from AudreLorde.
And the mythical norm is essentially who society was designed to work for, right?
And mythical norm is a he.
who is white, straight, able-bodied, wealthy, educated, thin, relatively young.
(31:44):
Goodness, what else?
Cisgendered, did I mention straight?
Right, all of those things, right?
All of those things.
that are super angry right now.
Correct, correct.
And any deviation from that mythical norm introduces friction into your life.
(32:07):
Every deviation from that mythical norm increases the opportunities for under recognitionto take place.
Right?
And that's because the status quo has been set up to cater to this mythical norm.
Right?
So any behaviors that do not align with the status quo, we as human beings have been wiredto defend against them, right?
(32:35):
Like we've been wired to defend the status quo actually.
And that's no matter how unjust or how not great for us that status quo happens to be.
So that's why behavior change in general is uncomfortable.
It's also why it's really difficult for behavior change along these lines to take place.
(32:58):
Like that's why it's difficult.
So yeah, sorry, go ahead.
such cult theory, like this is how cults work.
So like in the children of God, when our leader died and his cray cray lady took over, sheput out this crazy doctrine, which was basically adults having sex with Jesus in their
(33:23):
minds while they're having sex with each other.
crazy, right?
And there was, was a whole series and they were given very specific instructions that Ifind fascinating, which was that nobody was to read it alone.
Like it was intended to be read in a group, but if you were like, you know, the one onchildcare or the one, whatever, like you weren't to just catch up with it on your own,
(33:53):
right?
And this is because social proof, which I'm sure you are.
wildly familiar with, right?
But like, as everyone is thinking, this is crazy, but they're looking around and nobodyelse is saying anything.
So they're like, okay.
I'm the only one that thinks this is crazy.
You know, and I say sometimes with the whole Emperor has no clothes thing, right?
(34:19):
They're like, we like to think that when the child says it, we
We all see, but I think what happens is we take the child out back and beat them forsaying it and continue on.
And this also brings up the idea of adoption thresholds, which is something that
(34:40):
is really, it's like a very basic concept that's really core to network science.
And it's essentially just the idea that like every single person in a network of peoplehas an adoption threshold, right?
So it's the number of people that they need to see in their sort of close knit communitywho has adopted a behavior before they too will then adopt said behavior, right?
(35:02):
So like that's also absolutely what was happening in that scenario, right?
That like,
By themselves, that person's adoption threshold probably would not have been met becausethis idea was so off the reservation, right?
But when you are together in a group and there's no overwhelming dissent or anythingthat's coming through, it looks like everyone around you is adopting it.
(35:28):
And so that overcomes your adoption threshold, right?
So that's another thing that's absolutely taking place.
is why it's so relevant that the outgoing president of the United States was remindingsoldiers of their oaths, right?
It was like reminding them that in the American military, we are all individually supposedto assess whether orders are illegal or immoral without following them.
(35:57):
that adoption threshold thing, mean so much.
in the military, right?
Like you do the craziest things and we literally will say to each other like, you just gotto drink the Kool-Aid, you know, just to like justify doing silly things that we know are
silly, but we're doing them anyways.
(36:17):
Which is like, mean genuinely terrifying, like also, this is also what, and now we'regonna get into my, one of my, the things that I'm known on the internet to talk about, but
also is kind of like maybe a, like a niche.
(36:39):
like brand marketing, like those people world things.
So like, it may not be interesting to folks, but like, maybe it is.
We'll see.
We'll see.
And it's this, right?
That there is this thing that people do when they are trying to target a message to aspecific person.
(37:00):
they create what is called an ideal client avatar or something of that nature.
Right.
And that's because an ideal client avatar makes it really, really easy to talk to manydifferent people as if you're talking to one person.
Right.
That's why they do it.
Now, the issue with an ideal client avatar is the fact that all that it's doing really issegmenting the world or your market or whatever it happens to be.
(37:30):
demographically and psychographically if we're being really cutting edge, right?
For the uninitiated, demographics are like census level data.
So like your age, your gender, your race, stuff like that.
Psychographic information are things like your hobbies, your preferences, right?
Things like that.
(37:51):
Do you prefer Hulu to Netflix, right?
That's a psychographic.
Now,
where this becomes problematic is when you start looking at the effect that that has ongroups of people, right?
Because when you segment people so that they are both demographically andpsychographically homogenous, what that creates is the dangerous kind of echo chamber that
(38:21):
has led to a lot of the violence that we see now exploding across our television screens,right?
And that's because those networks of people lack the countervailing forces to prevent thespread of disinformation and misinformation, the kind of stuff that can intentionally be
deployed in the case of disinformation to manipulate people's perspectives and influencethem into dangerous, risky behaviors that they might not otherwise participate in.
(38:51):
And the kind of countervailing forces that prevent something like that are
get this, diversity, right?
Diversity of experience, diversity of, like demographic diversity and psychographicdiversity specifically, right?
Like if we're gonna put two fine points on it.
this is why I almost think it's almost humorous, the whole trying to walk back diversityinitiatives in the military, because we know it's made it better, as it always does,
(39:23):
right?
It has shown us things we don't know.
But also, so I think with cults.
And people are like, well, both sides are cults.
And I'm like, okay, yes.
In a two-party system, in a black and white system, by definition, it is culty and thesetactics are used and influence and blah, blah.
(39:49):
But 50 years ago, one side made one, what do you call it?
Like avatar.
We only care about cisgender white Christian men.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
going back to language and influence and disinformation, right?
It's like they've been speaking with one voice, with one message, with one simple answer,right?
(40:14):
Which simple answers don't exist.
We know on this podcast, okay.
I always say anyone giving you a simple answer to a complex problem is trying to cult youor con you, you know?
And so, you know, and then people are like, okay, well,
How do you know both sides are in a cult?
And I'm like, okay, here's a simple test you can run.
(40:38):
Think about someone on the other side, right?
If I had one of my people that I'm thinking about on the other side in my power for twoweeks, like they were children or their leg was broken or somehow they had to do whatever
you said, how many diverse perspectives could I expose them to?
And it's about 25, I have counted, right?
(40:59):
And if they have me,
It would be one.
It would be one.
And cults rely on isolation.
That's part of why, ironically, even though the internet has helped get a lot of peopleout of cults, like I think was kind of the end of Children of God and maybe even now the
Mormons, but like it's also amplified these echo chambers that we are in in society.
(41:27):
Yeah, that's right.
in really
frustrating and terrifying ways.
And so that's why the equity and inclusion piece is so existentially important, right?
(41:47):
Because it is that very piece that prevents those echo chambers from becoming thedangerous kind, right?
And this isn't to say that like...
like echo chambers by themselves are bad, right?
Because there are echo chambers that have like this diversity of thought and opinion andeverything.
And they're echo chambers because like we share values, right?
(42:09):
But that doesn't necessarily mean that we share like opinions or like even perspectives,right?
Like we share values.
So like we believe certain truths to be self-evident, right?
And this is also why I always stress that folks focus on the under recognition piecerather than the under representation piece, right?
(42:39):
Because under representation is a symptom of under recognition.
And when we try to solve for the under representation piece, so many things happen, right?
But like one, we put the impetus on the underrepresented person to solve the problem,right?
Mm-hmm.
we pretend that there isn't an active agent that is causing that under-representation tobe the case in the first place, right?
(43:06):
And then three, even when we try to solve for the under-representation problem, we end upcreating a whole bunch of new ones because we're not creating the environment or the
context that's necessary to protect that person, right, or those people.
And so we have...
then we have the tokenization, right?
Then we have folks who are essentially set up to fail and then like we sort of like winknudge when they don't manage to beat the odds again.
(43:37):
But when we solve for under recognition, we sort of circumnavigate a lot of those things.
And we say like, okay, there's someone who's doing the under recognizing.
So they are the source, right?
Like they are the folks that we want to focus on.
And
And it also forces us to...
(44:04):
acknowledge that the changes that need to be put in place in order to make a behaviorchange sustainable, that those things are going to be uncomfortable.
Right?
That like...
(44:25):
On the one hand, if you are forced to represent people, right, you don't have to do thatto an uncomfortable degree.
And in fact, people often don't.
That's why we have the problems that we currently have.
If you are forced to recognize someone, right, that you wouldn't otherwise have recognizedbefore, that's a different thing entirely.
(44:48):
Yeah.
I like that.
It's a great way of thinking about it.
So have you written a book?
This is so stupid.
No, but you are literally the second person to ask me that today.
And I'm, it's, it's, it's on the list.
Like it's, it's coming.
Yeah.
It's on the list and it's coming.
(45:12):
Well, I figured out the magic sauce of how to sell books on the internet.
So, you know.
That's true.
We should talk about that.
How do people work with you?
Like, what does that look like?
Yeah, absolutely.
um, I, yeah, no, yes, it's honestly, of course, it definitely depends on who you are.
(45:41):
But the most general way that folks work with me is in my visibility engineering program,right?
And visibility engineering is just my methodology, right?
And
The idea is that we first assess where your, I call it your ecosystem of influence is andhow it's doing.
(46:08):
And I can talk more about what that is if that's interesting to folks, but we assess whereyour ecosystem of influence is, how it's doing, where it needs support.
Then we either build that ecosystem of influence or refine it.
And then we run it.
And your ecosystem of influence is essentially made out of three parts.
(46:31):
It is your platform, right?
So that's part number one, your circle of recognition, which is part number two, and yourattention management system, which is part number three.
Now your platform, that's responsible for making sure that you and your work or your ideais the obvious choice for whatever, whatever it is you're trying to do.
(46:55):
Right?
You want to be framed as the obvious choice.
And when we're working on your platform, that means working on three things in particular.
First, it is your premise, right?
So your idea is about the world and how it can and should be different.
Your positioning, which is all about what makes your premise distinct.
(47:18):
And I want to take a moment here and say distinct and not differentiated.
Those are two different things.
One of them is really good for the brain and the other one is something that you shouldprobably avoid.
And then the third thing is your branding, right?
Like your memorable assets, making sure that those things reflect what you need them to,right?
(47:41):
So that's your platform.
And when you have all of those things essentially up to snuff, what that means is that youare the obvious choice to whoever you need to be the obvious choice to.
So that's the first piece of your ecosystem of influence.
Questions, thoughts, feelings, concerns.
Nope, you're just giving me so many ideas.
(48:01):
I'm like, yep, I'm still working on some of that, you know.
Okay.
Part two, part two of your ecosystem of influence is your circle of recognition, like Isaid, and that's responsible for making sure that the opportunities that you need to get
your ideas into those influential spaces you need them to be in, make sure that thoseopportunities are coming to you, right?
(48:26):
Now your circle of recognition was just fancy talk for your network, really.
but it's your network structured around the behavior of recognition, right?
And so this is something that folks often miss, that your network can be designed tobehave in a specific way and to bring about certain outcomes, right?
(48:48):
Most people have their network structured to amplify the sharing of information, right?
Which is great if you're trying to share the news.
or a cat meme, right?
But if you are someone who is in the business of changing hearts and minds and behavior,then you need your network to be structured to amplify your ideas in behavior changing
(49:13):
ways.
And that's going to look different than the sort of other orientation.
So that's sort of part two, making sure that you have a circle of recognition, that it isstructured appropriately.
and that you then know how to cultivate it and expand it when necessary.
So that's part two.
(49:34):
And then finally, we have your attention management system.
And this is responsible for making sure that you eventually reach what I call yourvisibility tipping point.
And that's the point at which your ideas catch on at a societal level, right?
This is when like,
like it clicks at that level and it starts to spread.
(50:00):
And the attention management system, what you are doing, right, or what it is, is it's asystem that allows you to gain, maintain, and translate the attention of all of your
stakeholders, right?
Like, remember, we talked about your circle of recognition, right, and that network.
(50:20):
you need to get those folks to move, right?
Like you need to get those folks to change their behavior in some way.
And that's what this does.
It allows you to maintain, like get their attention, maintain it, and then translate itinto those outcomes that you're looking for.
And to do that predictably and do that knowing that the various kinds of stakeholders thatyou have will mean that that process is going to look different for each of them.
(50:46):
So that's the third thing.
Yeah.
the way, I found out by dyeing a streak of purple into my hair that it grabs the attentionof all the bros who cannot stop themselves from commenting on the blue haired knitting
liberal.
And then they help my posts go viral and I make money.
And it's just like, I'm like, yup, I'm going every color of the rainbow now.
(51:16):
And that's like, that's a perfect example of sort of like motivational programs, actually,which is in Leshchapskaya's love that, which is a huge part of like shaping your attention
management system.
So those are the three things that are in your ecosystem of influence.
And when I'm working with folks, like I said, we start by assessing where yours currentlyis, then we either build it or refine it.
(51:44):
And then basically,
If you would like, I work with you in an ongoing capacity to support you as you buildtowards that visibility tipping point, right?
So as you are basically leveraging that attention management system.
So that's it in a slightly larger net.
me and Lizzie might have to bring you in to do some knitting cult lady stuff.
(52:07):
And also, by the way, I recently conceptualized a musical.
I haven't written it all yet, but I'm very excited about it.
It's Uncultured, the Cult Baby musical, and it's like Book of Mormon for all cult babiesmeets women soldiers on the stage.
Thank you.
we need to talk about this.
(52:27):
songs is called Skinny Skinny Blond Woman.
I'm so excited about it.
But anyway, one of the things I've literally been thinking and like low key studyingTay-Tay, right?
And just like, I've written some sick lines in my book and I have some snappers, but like,I need to set them to a sick beat, right?
(52:49):
Like I'm gonna get the deification of idiosyncrasy talked about in like.
I have another one that I'm so proud of that says, because we were delayed adolescence,now we're gonna have to have our delayed adolescence.
Okay, okay.
I don't know if people can hear that, but I'm doing the little goal slap.
(53:11):
do different things, anyway, the attention thing and the visibility thing that you saidmade me think about that.
I was like, yeah, like I really think there's different ways of getting like the messageout that makes it echo, echo in different ways.
That like reinforces the signal essentially, right?
(53:34):
Like, yeah, absolutely.
A thousand percent.
like the repeater tower for your ideas.
Yes!
Yes, bitch!
Love that idea.
I'll probably borrow it.
Sorry, flew a lot of rupia.
Missions, army.
That's the headspace you're in and I get it.
(53:55):
You know, I'm so glad that we had this conversation.
I'm so excited for our listeners to hear this.
You you were saying like, you don't know if this would be outside the scope of theconversation, but I'm like, ultimately, everything is groups and cults and culture and
influence, right?
(54:17):
We talk a lot on this podcast about how studying influence and the science of motivationand psychology the way you do is just a tool.
Tools can be used as weapons, but they can also be used as tools.
So often, it's interesting, so often what I see in cults is that was like white peopletook something that is a tool in a community of color, like chanting.
(54:47):
Yes.
Yeah.
use it as like a weapon in their groups, you know?
And then it's like, that's cult psychology right there.
So, you know, this is why we talk about the tactics and all these different topics.
think my theory is I get interesting people in the room and then we'll have goodconversations.
(55:09):
like, my special interest is I can tie everything to cults.
And we have somehow managed to do so.
I'm really proud of us.
we have.
I'm proud of us too.
Well, thank you so much.
We're gonna wanna know what is the best way for people to get ahold of you.
We will of course have all of Chloe's links in her or in the description.
(55:34):
If you are listening to this, please like and subscribe.
And if you are not seeing our beautiful faces, you can come watch us on YouTube or on thePatreon.
And Chloe, will you tell us your full name as well, please?
Yes, of course.
for those who are unfamiliar, my full full name is Madnoby, Chloe, Chodichima Wangu.
(56:03):
So that's my full full name.
My first first name is something that...
Here's how I help people learn how to pronounce it.
So I want you to imagine that you are in a desert and you've been in this desert for daysand you are thirsty AF, right?
Like you're so thirsty and you're at this point sort of like crawling through this desertand then you see off in the distance a sort of shimmering mirage that appears to be an
(56:33):
oasis.
And so like you like scrabble your way there with the last of your energy.
Hurrah, it turns out to in fact be an oasis.
You dunk your head into the water, you come out, and the first syllable out of your mouthis, hmm.
That's the first syllable of my first name.
(56:56):
And so that name is pronounced, mm-ah-dee-no-bee.
My denovi.
Beautiful, correct, there you go.
Madinobi.
Thank you.
description of a name that I have ever heard.
(57:17):
Thank you.
I aim to please.
my name means judged by God.
boy.
Well, in OBI actually means beauty in the heart.
So it does have a meaning.
It's lovely.
Just by God heavens.
Yeah.
Thank you.
(57:37):
I know when all the little girls are named like clarity and light and your name is judgedby god.
It's like, okay.
Thanks.
Thanks Every time i'm signing my book to a danielle or a danielle I always wonder like dothey know what their name means because they're about to because it's in there
(57:58):
my gosh.
everybody, please, I'm sorry, Chloe, did we say where to find you?
we didn't, but I like genuinely, I will include a resources page.
because there are lots of things that probably questions that came up.
But in general, you can find me doing my nerdy best on LinkedIn.
(58:20):
And like, I'm kind of sort of on Instagram, like there's a huge repository of like mybrand science stuff that's there.
And I'm always in stories sharing about under recognized leaders in the social impactspace doing incredible things, and why those things worked.
so that's something that's interesting to you.
Check me out there.
(58:42):
but yeah, otherwise like that's it.
I do have a nerd list.
If that's something that is cool for you, it's where I talk about, influence building andattention management from a scientific perspective, basically like, yeah, if you, if you
want to have a role in the resistance and you want science backed approaches to that, thenlike,
(59:07):
I talk about that there, so join the nerd list and you can see more about that.
Amazing, I haven't even heard of Nerdlist yet, but now I'm excited.
All right, thank you so much, Chloe.
This has been a wonderful discussion and everybody, thank you so much for listening toCults and the Culting of America.
(59:28):
Sorry that Scott had some technical problems, but what a great conversation anyways.
Thanks everybody, we'll see you later.
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