February 18, 2025 • 60 mins
In this episode, Scott Loyd and Daniella Mestyneck Young engage in a deep conversation with Taylor Marie, a mental health therapist and cult survivor. Taylor shares her experiences with an online cult, discussing the similarities between online and in-person cults, the recruitment tactics used, and the psychological manipulation involved. The conversation explores the dynamics of charismatic leadership, the exploitation of belonging and purpose, and the red flags that led to Taylor's eventual departure from the cult. The discussion also touches on the importance of healthy leadership and the potential for spiritual practices to exist without devolving into cult-like behavior. In this conversation, Taylor Marie shares her harrowing experience of being involved in a cult-like astrology group, detailing the emotional turmoil and moral conflicts she faced. She discusses the manipulative tactics of the cult leader, the fear of leaving, and the subsequent backlash she received after her departure. The conversation highlights the importance of questioning authority and the role of social media in exposing harmful groups. Taylor's journey of self-discovery and the impact on her family dynamics are also explored, culminating in a powerful narrative of resilience and personal growth.
Daniella's Links:
You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
For more info on me:
Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding
Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding
Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8
Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady
Instagram: https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_
Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook
Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8
Other Podcasts
Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women
Takeaways
- Taylor Marie is a mental health
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Welcome to CULTZ and the CULTing of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd and I'm thrilled to be here once again with my friend.
You know her as the knitting CULT lady, Daniela Mesteneck Young.
And I like your t-shirt and I started to call you out on the t-shirt, but I said thatmight be inappropriate.
(00:49):
So I like your t-shirt.
You know, thanks, just take him back all the things they weaponized against us.
And if you're just listening, it says shameless hussy.
And that's one of my shirts that people like.
So, yep.
get them at Daniela's page, right, along with other t-shirts and sayings and the book,Uncultured.
(01:10):
Yes, yes, and we're still out of books.
I have sold Jeff Bezos out of books.
So that's like my, my accomplishments.
But anyway, for those of you who are listening, if you are patiently waiting for the book,it's good.
It's worth the wait, promise.
Absolutely, it is.
(01:32):
We are thrilled to have Taylor Marie with us tonight and Taylor is going to share with usher story.
Taylor, welcome.
I read a little bit about your experiences and I think lots of folks can relate.
So welcome to the podcast and why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to ourlisteners.
(01:54):
For sure, Scott.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
My name is Taylor Marie.
I am 26 years old.
I am a mental health therapist in Colorado, specializing in narcissistic abuse and cultrecovery.
I am a cult survivor of an online cult, a fully online cult, for two years.
(02:15):
I escaped last May and I have been rebuilding my life and my career ever since then.
Fantastic.
you know, when you mention online cults, some people are like, can that be a cult?
So first of all, why don't you take a few moments and define what you mean by online cultas opposed to, I suppose, an in-person cult and what that looks like and how you got
(02:40):
caught up in that.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, I would say that there is very little difference between an online cult and anin-person cult, except for the ways that you communicate and have contact with other
members and the cult leaders.
The influence is pretty much the same.
The levels of control is pretty much the same.
(03:02):
The way that they recruit and maintain members is fully online.
compared to in person.
So you find them online or they find you, they love bomb you and wow you online, and thenthey bring you into an online community.
It's very often through live streams, through chat rooms, but all the same, they createthat sense of belonging.
(03:24):
You communicate with other people through social media or the online platform.
And then once you're in it, you're in it.
So it's essentially the same.
And my theory, it's a working theory.
I would love to conduct a research study on this one day.
But I think that the methods of control are all relatively the same except for thebehavior control in terms of what you wear, who you talk to.
(03:51):
Well, not so much who you talk to because my cult told us who we couldn't talk to, butwhat you eat.
It's more of like that behavioral control that's a little bit more difficult for onlinecults.
So I have this theory that the information control, thought control, emotional control,financial, all of that is heightened because of the lack of behavioral.
They have to compensate for that in other areas.
(04:13):
That's just my theory about online cults.
I was recruited into my online cult through TikTok.
They popped up on my For You page.
And the first video that I saw of them, it's two cult leaders and one of them,
they popped up and what got me was the confidence and the charisma of this person.
(04:35):
They were speaking very confidently, very matter of fact, and I felt like I could learnsomething from them.
I was like, wow, like this person has knowledge, like let me learn more about this.
So that's really what pulled me in and it really only took a second to be exposed to them.
Because when you're scrolling, he just popped up and that's how it started.
(04:57):
You know, it's so interesting when I studied this a little bit in graduate school abouthow like when online first started becoming a thing, there was kind of this thinking that
maybe like the way human beings did relationships was fundamentally gonna change.
So, you know, it's always going back through time, the first village censuses that we haverecords of 150 people to 200 people, right?
(05:25):
It's like the,
the 150 to 250 range, because that's like as many relationships as you can hold in yourhead.
And by the way, I lived in a commune that had 250 people when I was little.
That's me on the cover of the book there, yeah.
And then like when Facebook started growing, these online communities started growing forlike a short minute, sociologists were like, huh, I wonder if now we're gonna have like
(05:52):
5,000 friends, right?
Turns out,
Not so, right?
Like human relationships are basically the same.
And I think, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about the difference between like,when my grandfather was taken off into a cult in the 70s, when like, if you wanted to
(06:14):
isolate an American, but still have constant contact with them, you kind of had to takethem off to your compound.
And back home, everyone was sort of watching the same television, listening to the sameradio.
So you could be polarized, but you were still kind of a shared reality.
But then the internet came along and sort of fractured all of that.
(06:36):
And so it's really kind of almost easier, as you well know, to get sort of isolated in athought system and then in a group and not even realize it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I love that you say that about the number of friends that you have because I, myfriend group became my online friends from that group.
(06:56):
Like my in-person friends.
I mean, this is a blend of me getting recruited and also moving across the country.
Naturally, I moved away from friends and family.
However, this online group became my friend group and we were like 10, 15, 20 people atmost.
So.
Yeah, and then when you're in that group and they're telling you what content you couldconsume while you're on the social media, that's a little bit about what TV shows you
(07:23):
could watch in the commune, in person, in that group, in that home.
So there's a lot of carryover that's really fascinating and interesting to see.
Taylor, you mentioned the charisma of the people that were doing these TikToks and thatthey recruited you.
Did they reach out to you or did you reach out to them?
(07:45):
And they responded.
What did that interaction look like online in a virtual space?
Because a lot of times when you're in person with these leaders, they absolutely love bombyou and they make you feel special.
But I'm wondering if how that
experience was different because obviously you were interacting with these people online.
(08:08):
Right, yeah.
Similar but different, like a lot of the different tactics that they use.
So when they first popped up on my feed, I followed them and their videos started poppingup on my page more.
And just for context, this former group there, known as Mystic Rebels, it's a spiritualgroup.
So astrology, tarot, herbalism, holistic wellness, all of that.
(08:30):
So I was very big into astrology and tarot at the time.
So it was an astrology video teaching astrology that popped up.
I commented a question on the video because I was like, this person has knowledge.
I want to learn from you.
I think you could answer my question.
Within minutes, him and his wife responded to my comment with a video response andresponded in detail to my question.
(08:54):
And I was like, wow, that was so fast of a response.
And that was super nice of them to take the time to answer because there's a lot of bigcreators on the app that either have too many comments to respond to or they don't see
your comments.
just to be acknowledged in that way, pretty quickly, I was like, that's super nice ofthem.
Then they started live streaming on TikTok.
(09:14):
They started doing TikTok lives a lot.
And I started joining those lives and they were always very warm, very welcoming.
They're like, hey, it's Taylor.
Like, look who's back.
Like they were very acknowledging of my existence.
So I feel like that was the beginning stages of feeling that sense of belongingness, thatsense of being welcomed.
And then other people started being welcomed.
(09:35):
And then you could chat with each other in the chat box when people are live.
It's, know, you guys know, but yeah, so we were typing to each other in the chat box.
So that's how we started communicating with other people in the audience.
So the sense of belongingness grew and the love bombing was interesting because it wentfrom like, oh, everyone's welcome.
(09:58):
Let's learn astrology.
This is going to be so fun.
And then it shifted into
but did you guys know that this is the only system of astrology that works?
And now we're gonna be the special ones who have the real knowledge aside from everyoneelse.
So it was like a quick, in my experience, it was a quick love bombing, but then came likethe sacred knowledge of like, we're all here and just so you guys know, like this is the
(10:27):
real stuff.
So like you're lucky to be here.
And then we were like, wow, like that's so cool.
And then that's kind of how it snowballed into cult-y.
And so this is the important stuff to pull out, right?
Because obviously, Scott, I don't know if this has happened to you yet, but obviously forme as a creator around cult, who's a woman, I get accused of being a cult leader all the
(10:50):
time, right?
And like, because I'm not, I don't have to defend it.
Another little thing I say, but like, what's the difference, right?
So this is one of those differences, you know, that I think is really important.
Because I think people confuse, right, just popularity with like, you're a cult leader,right?
(11:12):
And like, even charisma, like many people are charismatic.
So like, what are these little things?
And I don't know if you've thought through like a list of things, but like, as you werebeing brought in, you know, on...
So for like a flip side example, the other day I mentioned cults always weaponize yourdiscontent.
(11:34):
So having some form of gratitude practice can be important, right?
And then people were like, say more about that.
What do you mean?
And I was like, I'm actually, you know, like, don't necessarily want to like give yourecommendations, right?
I think like it's weird when people start telling you like, this process is what works.
(11:56):
Like this is how you have to do it.
You know, almost always the question is much more complicated than that.
Yeah, and I heard when you were sharing your experience, things that we've talked about,Daniela, the idea of a charismatic leader.
In this case, you had a couple.
And then you had the sacred assumption, right?
(12:18):
And then the special knowledge and the wisdom that was only revealed to this particulargroup.
And so that's what we see these groups doing over and over again.
They exploit a real human need for
belonging and for purpose and for our desires for destiny.
(12:41):
And they exploit that.
And their ultimate goal, as Daniela has pointed out repeatedly, is free labor, right?
They want you to do the work, and they want you to do it for free.
Does that track with your experience, Taylor?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And this was all 100 % online the entire time.
(13:02):
So when people say like, oh, they can't possibly have control over you through theinternet, they absolutely can.
And they did.
And they do.
Even the labor part as well.
I moved up the ranks fairly quickly.
I became their star student fairly quickly because I joined early on, like the same monththat they
(13:25):
made their account on TikTok was the month that I found them.
So I was one of their first students and I was there for two years.
So I was the first and I was there the longest and I was doing everything.
I was taking all the classes.
I was getting all the readings.
was telling other people how great they are and recruiting other people.
Eventually, guess, quote unquote, under them, I started my spiritual business because theysaw in my chart, my astrology chart, hey, you should do a spiritual business like we have.
(13:55):
so I started my business.
I started going live all the time and I built, you know, a good reputation for mybusiness.
I published a book and all of that.
And they took a lot of the credit for the work that I was doing and made it seem likebecause they mentored me and because I was a part of this community that that's why I had
that.
(14:15):
And they kind of had that be the expectation in a way.
So it's, it all tracks.
It all tracks with.
with culty vibes for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So was that a rift, like when you tried to take credit for your work, or how did that go?
(14:36):
Well, I at first didn't realize that's what was happening.
I always felt very honored to be their star student and to promote them and to do thework.
And at first I didn't realize that that's what was happening.
Once I started to realize it and there were a few things that happened, it made me feel alittle uncomfortable, but I never felt like I could question them.
(15:03):
or disagree with them or bring up any form of discomfort with them.
But I do remember it was more of a personal thing, just thinking to myself, being like,wait a minute, I think this is what's happening and I don't like that and I don't think
it's fair.
And then I started to pick up on the fact that there are some people within our communitythat were buying my services and buying my book because the cult leader was telling them
(15:29):
to.
And that's truly what it felt like.
I felt like in my business, I created my own community that I had for myself.
And then my cult leaders had their community and our communities merged a lot of the time.
I felt like my people truly were there for me, but I felt like their people were justfollowing orders.
So if they say, her book, they would buy my book.
(15:49):
I would get more book sales, which means my book is more successful, which means thatthey're more successful because I'm more successful.
It was like this cycle that I noticed.
and it wasn't something that I ever brought up to them.
The rift that happened between us was when I left.
That was the rift that happened.
Yeah.
Yeah, the exit cost, right?
(16:11):
And we've talked about that as well, entrance and exit costs that obviously aren'tarticulated.
And so did this happen over the course of months, years?
What kind of time frame are we talking about here?
So I joined in August of 2022 and I left in May of 2024.
(16:31):
So about two years total I was involved.
About one year total I had my own spiritual business that they were mentoring me throughand was pretty connected to their work.
So yeah, like two full years.
And beyond them taking credit for your work, what was some of the red flags that you beganto notice that sort of started you down the path of leaving?
(17:02):
yeah, so pretty much the us versus them, everyone else, all other astrologers, we weretold not to seek information elsewhere.
We don't read any other books besides their books and resources, which they haven't evenpublished their book yet.
So just don't read books, I guess.
Don't seek information from other astrologers.
(17:24):
Don't get readings from other astrologers.
Don't follow or watch other astrologers' content because they're all scammers.
They're all liars.
They're going to con you out of your money.
So, and in the beginning I felt safe because we were told that we were being protectedfrom fake astrology.
So at first I felt safe, but after two years of hearing the same thing over and over andover again, it started to get really annoying because I was like, you don't think I could
(17:49):
think for myself?
And it started that one, that's one thing that started clicking.
Another thing was, yeah.
say this is one of those really important signs that I like to emphasize.
I have this thing I created called the Guru Gacha Checklist.
But one of the things is like, just like consistently shit talking other experts in yourfield, right?
(18:17):
Like, yeah, sometimes you can have, as I do, a beef with someone's professional, you know,
opinion on something.
But everyone else in your field of expertise is not wrong or out to get you or dumber thanyou or tricking you, you know, and it comes back to what I just say is the focus on your
(18:42):
own uniqueness.
You know, like no true expert thinks they're the only one that has good information inthat area.
They'll constantly actually be pointing you to other experts.
Do you wanna know the funny part about that is that my former cult leader says that hedoesn't have peers in the field.
He's elevated above them because he developed this system of astrology.
(19:06):
Like he created it.
Like he created the only system.
So he doesn't consider any other person in the field his peer.
He's like, it's just no one even comes close to me.
But that's just inherently unscientific.
Like you said, Daniela, experts are
more than happy to cite their sources and refer out and like lead you to other ways ofknowledge.
(19:31):
So like even today I was trying to explain one of my favorite conspiracy theories thatlike no Alexa is not listening to you, it's data pinging you and it's like putting
together all this information and then people are like, but what about, you know, I wasthinking about this thing and I'm like, people think their thoughts happen in a vacuum.
(19:52):
People do and they don't understand that like.
everything is connected, right?
This conversation that we are having is connected to other things.
So funny, because Hayley and I record two podcasts in the same day and often we discusssimilar things, right?
Because I'm the common denominator and we're in these circles and these things come up.
(20:15):
So it's just like, even this concept of like, you had these thoughts on your own.
No, no, you didn't.
I want to return to your story in just a moment, Taylor, but I have a questionspecifically about astrology.
And so I grew up in a Pentecostal cult.
So was a Christian cult and a high control group.
(20:38):
And still, at this point, even though I've long left that going through the process ofdeconstruction, I would still look at myself and
I still think of myself and identify as a Christian.
I'm not sure what that means anymore.
I'm not sure what the parameters of that is.
But I often think because of the inherent seeker mentality of those of us that pursuereligion in its many forms, and it doesn't just have to be Christianity, that that often
(21:14):
sets us up.
you know, the cult-like status or the cult itself is almost impossible to escape if youwant to maintain and hold on to any kind of belief system.
So do you find that there's something with astrology, something with spirituality,something with organized religion that somehow lends itself to these groups or
(21:44):
Can you maintain that belief and practice that belief and be a leader in those beliefswithout creating a cult?
And I don't know what the answer is to this.
I would like both of you to kind of maybe comment on it.
yeah, I definitely think you could be considered a leader in these fields, in spiritualityor religion.
(22:09):
As long as you promote free thinking, you allow people to question you and disagree withyou, you let them talk to other people.
And I think it comes down to how we define and describe a leader and really promotinghealthy leadership, not unhealthy.
leadership.
So if you have someone who's a healthy individual with healthy influence over people thatthey are guiding and they are leading, maybe because they have, you know, they've walked
(22:38):
this path before they have more knowledge.
Maybe they just have something to share.
I do think it's possible to have healthy influence on people as a leader, as long asyou're encouraging them to be the leader of their own lives.
Like as a therapist, I always say to clients like you're the expert on your own life.
I'm here to step into your world.
and look through your worldview to understand you and your perspective.
(23:02):
And then together we'll figure out what that looks like.
And I think that's the safest way to go about it without being a cult leader.
That's just my take on it.
Yeah.
you.
so first of all, yes, I agree with that very much.
And I also think it's like, it's kind of to me, it's like a warning sign if someone'slike, this is the path, right?
(23:23):
Like, everything is so different.
Everything is so complex, right?
All you can hope for in a leader is someone that will do what you said and kind of likeguide you through a complicated process that they don't know either.
You know, like people keep asking me what's going to happen.
And I keep reminding people like, nobody knows, nobody knows what's going to happen rightnow.
(23:47):
But the other thing, like Scott, to your question of like, is it possible to do it good?
And, you know, I very much kind of meta question whether we can have good groups thatdon't hurt individuals kind of under, you know, capitalism and white supremacy and
patriarchy.
But I do think it's easy.
(24:10):
to not build a cult, you just don't coerce and manipulate people and take their labor,right?
And so, you know, because those are the things, like I said, like I didn't want to stay todo online thought influencer stuff, right?
Like I didn't really realize when I wrote a book that, this is part of the job descriptionnow.
(24:32):
And I was kind of creeped out by it.
And so I have been very slowly being not trying to form a group, not trying to tell peoplewhat to think.
And yes, I have leadership and expertise in an area, but these are the different things.
So for me, one of the big things is I just always try to make sure I'm bringing in 25 % to50 % of other people's stuff, other people's content, reading out loud.
(25:00):
I think it's made me curate a very interesting channel, right?
Diversity is always better, but it was also like, I don't want to one, isolate you in myideas, or two, give you the idea that I'm some sort of super smart genius that knows
stuff, right?
It's like, I'm getting it from all of these places.
And my gosh, you know, because you offered me labor when we started the podcast and we hadto talk about that.
(25:29):
And I was like,
You know, I try to be very, very strict.
It's been happening again with the musical I hope to write.
People keep offering me free labor and I'm like, no, I'm not going to take your freelabor, which is also different than saying we can crowdsource something, we can grassroots
something, we can groundswell something.
Absolutely.
(25:49):
But I think there's a big difference there.
And if you are the person who wants to be the leader, especially in these fields of selftransformation.
where like it can sort of easily go astray, I think you have to hold yourself to some highstandards, you know, because it's easy to tell yourself like, this person's learning, you
(26:11):
know, like they're getting something out of this and.
Well, and to be fair, mean, my approaching you wasn't purely altruistic, right?
I wanted to, I recognized, okay, this person has written a book, she's got a following.
I want to do in part some things that you've done and learned from you.
(26:32):
I mean, it was a natural opportunity that I was taking advantage of as well.
And so it was mutually beneficial, I think.
I just, I agree with you, but I just want leaders to hold themselves to a high standard,right?
Like, yes, you did, and you still are doing free labor here now, but like, we've discussedit.
(26:55):
But, you know, where I think it just gets very, people need to be careful of the powerdynamics and people need to know, right?
Like, I know.
that I have so many hundred thousand followers on this platform and I have a successfulbook and so people are going to think that I may be some sort of key to their success and
(27:21):
they want to be part of that.
And it's funny because people warn you when you're on the rise to like be careful ofpeople hitching themselves to the star.
But I want like the person who wants to be a leader.
You know what I've
learned from studying the bad leaders.
It's like, well, don't do that, right?
Don't coerce people, don't manipulate people, don't take their labor, emotional orphysical without compensation.
(27:48):
Don't build exit barriers to exit.
know, it's kind of like, if you don't wanna be a cult leader, just don't build a cult.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's great advice.
Thank you both.
I think that's very helpful.
And Taylor, returning to your story, so you finally reached a point where you were wantingto leave.
(28:09):
And what did that crisis look like that you came to?
did you leave overnight?
Or was this over the course of months?
Take us through that part of the story.
I love how you use the word crisis because that's exactly what it felt like.
It felt like my worldview that was built in this group came crashing down like a house ofcards.
(28:32):
It was like one thing after the other and it did happen fairly rapidly, fairly quickly.
Probably for like a month, a solid month, I was very back and forth about leaving orstaying.
The, so I guess it was like a month long crisis, but the true crisis part was when Icalled my parents and I was like, I don't think I could do this anymore.
(28:55):
Like I was very upset about something that I witnessed happened within the group thatreally just went so significantly against my values and morals as a person.
It just, broke me, but there were things leading up to it.
Like the us versus them started to annoy me.
having it shoved down my throat every day, that this is the one and only way.
(29:15):
Eventually I just got fed up with hearing that every day.
Watching my cult leader love bomb the new people coming in and kind of setting aside thepeople that have been there for a while, it kind of looked a little fake to me.
Feeling like I couldn't disagree with or question him.
There were times where I did have knowledge in certain areas that he was talking about.
(29:39):
and I would express it.
But since he wasn't the quote unquote expert in the room during those conversations, Iwould get shut down and I would get, you know, belittled in a way.
And I didn't like that either.
And then the us versus them, not only was he just saying that to us to keep us away fromthe outside world, but he was actually antagonizing and attacking other creators on the
(30:03):
app.
And he attacked someone who I felt truly did not deserve it.
really badly.
He made all of these wild accusations against this person.
I happened to like this person in secret because I wasn't allowed to enjoy otherastrologers' content.
So when I did, it was always in secret.
I would never bring it up.
(30:24):
I would never tell him.
Eventually, I thought that was also strange to have to keep that part of my life a secret.
I didn't even see that it was strange until probably the last month that I was involved.
So yeah, they not only did the cult leader attack this person, but then the group startedattacking this person.
(30:46):
And from my perspective, they were attacking an innocent person, someone who did notdeserve it.
And that broke me entirely.
And for the first time, I felt like I was on the outside.
I felt like I wasn't.
part of this anymore.
I used to defend this cult leader a lot, but I was like, I can't defend you anymore.
(31:06):
I can't defend these actions anymore.
So that was when I decided that I needed to leave.
And it was probably maybe a couple of weeks after that is when I decided to take theaction to leave.
And like I said earlier, like I called my parents probably like,
probably around two weeks before I actually left, just explaining to them.
(31:28):
And I felt like I had to explain myself.
Like I felt like I had to like, you know, I was just like, and then this happened and thenthis happened.
And like I said, everything just came crashing down.
And there was also a time where I was making a video testimonial for them because theylove video testimonials, like make a video about how great we are.
And I really wanted to make a video about how...
(31:49):
this system of astrology was different than all other systems of astrology.
And I wanted to make a really intelligent, intellectual video describing it because thisastrologer would get a lot of hate on social media for claiming to be the only one.
And everyone accused him of just stealing information from other people and renaming itand claiming it as his own, which is what he did do.
(32:11):
So I was like, as his star student, I'm gonna make this really like educated video.
about how it's different.
And I sat down and I got my pen and my paper to write out my list.
And I was like, no.
I was like, what does make this different than the rest?
And I was like, no.
And I started questioning myself because I was like, I'm a smart person.
(32:33):
Like I have a master's degree.
I read, I study, I learn the system.
I'm like, but I can't.
I can't sit here and describe how this is the one and only way.
The only thing that came to mind was regurgitations of what my cult leader would say.
It works because it just works.
It works because it's the only one that's 100 % accurate 100 % of the time.
It works because I'm aligned with my energies.
(32:56):
That was the doctrine, by the way.
The doctrine was you wanted to align with your energies.
And if you weren't aligned with your energies, then that means you're going to live a badlife.
If you are aligned with your energies, that means you're going to live a good life.
So you would have to go to the leader and pretty much ask like, hey, I wanna do this.
Is this aligned with my energies?
And he'll take a look and he'll say yes or no, essentially.
(33:16):
So I lived with a lot of anxiety too, which is another reason why I wanted to leavebecause it was too much thinking, am I doing the right thing?
Is this aligned?
All of that.
So anyways, went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but I called my parents and theywere like, no, this isn't you, Taylor.
Like, you're not a bully.
You've never bullied people online.
(33:39):
You never had this black and white thinking before.
Like, they're like, this hasn't been you for some time now.
They're like, it's okay that you want to leave.
And I was like, I was like, okay, like, thank you.
And then eventually I did.
I sent them an email going my separate ways.
And that was the start of basically like the mini war that we had on social mediaafterwards.
(34:03):
And you know, there's so much there that I want to point out that I think is helpful thatwe've talked about on this show.
And that's the idea that you began to scrutinize the leader's belief.
And once you start going down that path, I know that was my experience as well, it fallsapart, right?
(34:23):
Because it's, and there were a lot of thought stopping cliches that were thrown at you,right?
Don't think about this too deeply.
It works because it works, right?
You've got to align with energy.
And so I think that's very helpful to people that to know that any group that discouragesyou from asking questions or scrutinizing what they say they believe, probably an occult.
(34:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like it's really that simple.
And this is why one of my 10 commandments for good groups that are not cults isinformation is never bad.
You know, and like when you're even the secret thing that you mentioned, right?
Like it's hard when we're not in cults and we're deconstructed, like it's hard to think ofa valid reason for keeping a secret other than like we're planning this thing to surprise
(35:26):
this person for their birthday, don't tell them.
Right?
A limited secret with an end time.
Most of the time I look at most of our other secret keeping in society and I'm like, thisis just ends justifies the means mentality and this is just hiding information from
people.
You know, something else that stood out to me that you said was like, and this is sort ofevery cult's promise is like, if you do our thing perfectly, you'll have the good life.
(35:58):
But the good life is also, I say it's promised after some space travel, right?
It's always like in another body and another element on another planet and another form.
And what you don't end up is you're like working 10 times harder for this supposedly goodlife.
(36:19):
And in this way, it very much mirrors.
abusive relationships and narcissistic relationships as you mentioned in the beginningwhere it's like you're just working hard to try to get back to this good thing that you
think you experienced, but it was all basically a mirage.
Pray.
And so you mentioned that the exit cost, right?
(36:42):
So the email wasn't the end of it, right?
And that should be another red flag to folks, right?
If the exit is prolonged, if you say that you're leaving and then there's more, that's apretty good indication that you're involved with a cult.
So how did things escalate?
What did that look like on the back end and what kinds of exit costs?
(37:07):
Did you have to pay?
I paid for sure.
And right before I left, for the record, I had a feeling in my gut that it was not gonnago well.
I knew these people and I felt afraid.
I felt afraid to leave, not because I was afraid of not aligning with my energies anymore,which was a fear of mine.
(37:30):
I was like, if I leave, how am I gonna learn the real stuff?
How am I gonna align with my energies and live a good life?
Once I got over that, then I was like,
Oh my gosh, they're gonna retaliate against me if I leave.
I've seen them do it before.
Why would they not do it to me?
That was another red flag.
I was like, I should not feel afraid right now.
This is a sign that I'm in an unhealthy, dangerous situation.
(37:53):
So I knew something was gonna happen.
But anyways, I sent them an email and I was like, the best way for me to avoid retaliationis to just be as kind and respectful as I possibly can.
I was like, Taylor, just send them an email the same way that you would send any serviceprovider that you have worked with.
So I sent them an email.
(38:14):
thanked them for everything.
I expressed so much gratitude.
told them, I was like, hey, I'll still refer people to you.
I'll still recommend you.
I'll still tell people I learned from you.
And I was like, but I'm just going to go on my own path.
Like I'm feeling pulled in a different direction, but I'm always wishing you the best.
And it was so kind and so respectful, probably a little overly.
(38:36):
kind and respectful, but I was like, how could anyone get mad at this?
But I still had this awful feeling.
And not that long after, I think it was only like a few hours after, I'm on my laptopworking and I get an email back from them.
And their email was essentially saying, after everything we've done for you, we feel soused by you, we were there for you no matter what, we gave you everything you needed.
(39:04):
They're like, we gave you your business name because they like named like me and mybusiness.
Like I had a cult name and everything.
They're like, we gave you your name.
And then, cause they were trying to patent their system of astrology so that they couldstart suing people that they deemed were copying from them.
Cause when other people would say, Hey, there's other good astrologers out there.
(39:28):
That could only mean one thing.
Or two things, one, they're a scammer anyway, or two, that means that they're copying fromthis leader because there's no way that anyone else is good if they didn't learn from him
because he's the only one that's good.
So they're trying to patent it so they could sue people.
That was another reason why I left because they started to get excited about the idea ofsuing people.
(39:52):
And I thought that was gross.
I was like, who gets excited over something like this?
Like, why are we finding joy in that?
Side note, that was another reason why I left.
Anyways, in the email, because they were trying to get the patent, they didn't have it,and it didn't go through anyway, they told me that the patent was going to be quote
(40:13):
unquote retroactive, and if they catch me utilizing anything that I've learned from them,then I would be hearing from their legal department.
So they threatened legal action against me on top of trying to make me feel guilty forleaving by outlining everything they've done for me and everything I.
took for granted and took advantage of them for, and yeah.
(40:33):
And that was basically the email.
And I was like, okay.
I guess that was slightly better than the worst it could have been.
But I had this feeling in my gut.
And I was like, I don't think that this is over.
And then I thought to myself, I was like, what are the odds that they're on TikTok liveright now?
(40:56):
So I pull up my phone, I go on TikTok.
and they are live on TikTok talking about me and talking about the emails and talkingabout me leaving.
So they must have gone live probably like a second after they emailed me back.
Cause I saw the email as I came in, I read it, I went to their page, they're live, they'retalking about it.
(41:17):
And obviously all of my friends are in the audience, they're all in the chat.
And a lot of people are like kind of confused about why they're talking about me in thisway and stuff like that.
And they basically made it out to seem that I use them for free information, tookeverything I could have ever wanted from them and more, and then ran off with it.
And then they made it seem like my email was mean and disrespectful.
(41:41):
And like the wife of the husband, the two leaders, her husband and wife was like, my gosh,I could just like, I'm just so hurt right now.
Like just was like acting like she like was about to cry.
And I was like, what?
And I...
watched everyone in the chat who I thought were my friends turn against me within seconds.
(42:05):
These people were buying my book yesterday because these people told them to.
And now today they're lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks at me,literally a day later, simply because the cult leaders told them to.
So I just watched, like I said, within seconds and minutes, all of my friends turn againstme and have this narrative about me.
(42:27):
being told and spread on TikTok live, like how it didn't happen.
So I was like, I didn't even know what to make of it.
I just had like the thousand yard stare.
I was just like, my gosh, like this is happening right now.
So I personally didn't appreciate that whole approach that they took to me leaving.
(42:50):
They also made it seem like I had the audacity to go off and do my own thing.
And that made me mad because I was like,
Who are you to tell me that I'm not allowed to go off and do my own thing?
Like that's weird.
It's weird that you feel like you have that control over me.
Like that made me feel icky.
I was just like, like that's how you see me.
Like that's how you perceived me as like property or like I owed you something.
(43:13):
So, and mind you, I paid for all of my services, which wasn't cheap by the way.
Their readings and classes are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
So to insinuate that I use them for free information was absolutely absurd to me.
I went into debt trying to be a part of this group and to be the star student, to get allthe readings and to align with my energies.
So three days later, I decided to post my own video on TikTok.
(43:40):
And I basically just said, hey, like this is who I am.
I'm a former student.
This is why I left.
This was my experience.
This is how much money I've spent on them, by the way.
So I did not use anyone for free information.
And then I said, this is me like drawing a line between me and them.
(44:01):
Like I'm not affiliated with them anymore.
Their actions don't reflect me anymore.
I don't work under them, for them, near them.
Like I was like, I just want to be done with them.
Like I'm over it.
And this was kind of the very beginning of the whole thing.
I sent them an email.
They emailed me back threatening me.
They went live, I posted a video.
(44:21):
So it kind of snowballed from there.
And my video went viral.
Like it went more viral than anything else I've ever experienced on social media.
This was like my first viral thing that ever happened because everyone in the astrologicalcommunity was just waiting for something to happen with this group.
Because this group and this cult leader was antagonizing everyone.
(44:47):
for years.
They've built up this awful reputation for themselves and people have called them outbefore and it just, it came and it went.
But when the star student who is known as the star student, cause I've been on their livesbefore, they posted videos of me before, like I became known as like their person.
When their star student announced that they left and exposed what went on in the group andwhy they left, everyone like lost their minds over it.
(45:15):
Everyone was like, my.
Gosh, like they were sending it to all these big astrologers, all these big astrologeraccounts started following me and messaging me and it just, it blew up.
It went pretty crazy for a little bit and it was overwhelming.
And in my video, I never described this group as a cult because this was before I did anycult research ever in my life.
(45:37):
I had the...
basic knowledge of what a cult was, which is not the true knowledge.
You know, it's just like the Jim Jones stuff, the poppy, you know, mainstream cult stuff.
Like I had no knowledge of cults.
But when I posted my video, so many people reached out to me and they were like, girl,like, I think you were in a cult.
(45:57):
Like you were in a cult.
And I was like, what?
So I started doing cult research and I was like, my God, I was in a cult.
Like that's crazy.
So yeah, so after I posted my video went viral, my cult online, my former cult, they tookall of their videos down for two and a half months.
Like they disappeared, like they retreated or retracted.
(46:18):
I don't even know.
They took a break.
They disappeared for two and a half months.
And then two and a half months later, they come back on social media and they kind ofrebranded in a way, but then they started talking about me again, but they upped it.
Like they upped what they were doing.
So they took.
Personal things that I told them in personal readings like they took my secrets.
(46:39):
They took my Family stuff that I opened up to them about they took sensitive informationprivate information and just started outing me like everywhere and on all of their live
streams and they also posted a screen recording of my DMS with the cult leader onInstagram for the past six months and they're like, like Taylor's gonna claim that we
(47:02):
haven't supported her like
look at all these DMs of her asking us questions and us supporting her and stuff likethat.
And at first I was like, wow, that was really shitty of them to do.
But then I started getting messages from people who watched the screen recording andthey're like, hey, so this actually looks worse for them than it does for you because from
(47:26):
these messages...
You could see how influenced you were by this person and you could see how culty this guywas and yeah, and the kind of influence he had over you.
And also just like, why is the leader of a group releasing private messages, right?
Like sometimes we're so in it that we don't even see how ridiculous it is.
(47:50):
But this is also what I meant about like, when you're not a cult leader or you're not acult, you don't really have to defend it, right?
But the reason that when you came out, the reason that everything blew up was becauseeveryone else in the community already knew it was a cult.
they were just waiting to have someone from the inside say it, right?
Because they had already experienced that like bad negative interactions.
(48:16):
You know, so it's like, I also think it's this warning sign, I always say when thesegroups or these leaders are like overly defending themselves.
You know, because
legitimate leaders, legitimate groups, first of all, like you don't have the time for thatpettiness.
Like you're busy leading your organization and when somebody leaves, you let them go.
(48:38):
And you rarely like really have to address these like personal things.
And if you're not being a cult leader, your followers or students or whatever, like theyknow that, right?
I always think it's so interesting when people like the thing that cracks
the brainwashing, it's always this feeling of like, I knew, right?
(49:03):
Like I knew it didn't feel right.
So yeah, I don't know.
I do have this thing that I think it's a sign and people are like, no, anyone would wantto defend themselves.
And I'm like, no, if you're not credibly being accused of being a cult, you don't feel theneed to defend yourself.
And if you are,
(49:25):
Probably because you're a cult.
Yep, yep.
Any credible group will stand up to scrutiny.
if you're not a cult, yeah, if you're not a cult, being called a cult should should befunny to you.
It should be like what?
Haha, brush it off, move on.
And if you're actually not a cult, then people will forget about it because you're notdoing cult stuff that's drawing attention to you.
(49:47):
But yeah.
Yeah, if you're not a cult, you're not doing cult stuff.
I mean, that's as simple as it gets, right?
So, wow, you experienced so much, and I'm sorry that you had to go through that.
Where, how did it end?
(50:08):
What happened eventually?
wasn't even the crazy part.
I thought it was at the time, but it just got worse essentially.
So yeah, they posted my DMs.
They exposed all of my secrets, all of the things I told them in confidence, all thethings I told them in private.
And they essentially ripped the bandaid off for me in terms of being exposed on socialmedia, having people know things about you that you never thought people would know.
(50:35):
It kind of hurt my family a little bit, because when my mom started,
seeing and hearing all the stuff that the cult leader was saying about her, which wasinsanely inaccurate to begin with.
That was an interesting time.
It essentially did bring us closer together because we were able to have a very open andhonest conversation about everything.
(50:57):
So I tried for a few months to ignore what they were doing.
like exposing my information, posting my DMs.
I tried ignoring it, but it just kept happening and happening and happening.
And then the lies about me got more and more insane to the point where they were sayingthat I only bought like one or two services.
(51:23):
And I was like, that's a slap in the face.
I went into debt paying for your services, first of all.
Then they said that the reason I left was because I asked the leader to be my mentor.
and he told me no, and I didn't like that.
And I was like, that's insane.
You quite literally were my mentor for two years.
I was the star student.
Like, this doesn't make any sense.
(51:44):
Like, it just got more more untrue and worse and worse and worse.
And in hindsight, hindsight's 20-20, maybe I would have done things differently, but I gotback on TikTok and I defended myself yet again.
And everything that they lied about,
I did a response video and I posted screenshots of the actual proof.
(52:06):
So if they said that I said something in a message, I posted the message and was like,that's a lie.
When they said that I didn't buy any services, I posted every single receipt of everysingle service I ever bought.
And then the total of how much, like it just, I just kind of went through and dissectedeverything.
And then I also went on and I defended my family as well because they were talking badabout my family.
(52:27):
They were like, her family wouldn't support.
her, they told her she was nothing.
I told her she was everything.
Like the cult leader was like, I built her up while her own family was bringing her down.
And I went online to defend my family and I was like, they weren't bringing me down.
They were just concerned because I was doing cult stuff with you and I was going into debtto do cult stuff with you.
(52:49):
They were concerned about me, but they never told me I was nothing.
So this went on for a while.
Eventually I took
all of my videos down because I was tired of going back and forth with them.
This was when the big thing happened.
There was this trend happening on TikTok with Pepe the Puppet.
It was like this picture of this puppet with this like face, like this shocked, like WTFface.
(53:15):
And the trend was basically you put a story over it, something that's like dark ortraumatic and you turn it into something funny, essentially.
It's like dark humor.
So I did the trend for myself.
I didn't even post it.
And the vibe was like, when you think you're joining an astrology community, but really itends up being a cult.
It was something like that.
(53:36):
And I did a few slides of my experience with it.
And I laughed so hard at it when I finished creating it.
And I thought it was so funny.
And I was like, my stuff doesn't go viral anymore on TikTok because the drama's overand...
I'm sure only my friends are gonna see this if I were to post it.
Let me just post it, share it with my friends, take it down right after.
(54:00):
Because it was funny, I'm not gonna lie.
The meme that I made about my cult experience was funny.
And all of my friends found it funny.
And that was all it was meant to be.
Until it casually, within a few days, got 1.8 million views on it.
Like it ended up going.
extremely viral, like way more viral than my first one.
(54:23):
And this isn't me bragging, being like, oh my gosh, I went viral.
It's just what happened.
Like, I was just like, whoa, like I just did not expect that to happen.
Like that's really all that it was.
And it was overwhelming at first because I didn't expect it and it wasn't my intention.
However, I think it hit the nail in the coffin with this whole situation.
It spread so much awareness about this group.
(54:45):
And the funny part is, is that I never even named.
my former group in the caption, in the hashtags, in the slideshow, like in the meme, butthe thousands of comments that I got on it, everyone knew who it was.
Like I didn't even have to name them.
Like everyone knew who it was.
So then the ripple effect is that from that meme that I posted over at their page, theystarted getting called out for being a cult.
(55:12):
And they started getting called out for what they did and said to me after I left, tracingall the way back to the original emails when they were like, like people were standing up
for me.
They're like, the email that you sent her after she left was highly dysfunctional.
Like you were trying to scare her by threatening her.
That was wrong.
It was wrong to share her DMS.
Like you guys are very culty.
You guys are bullies.
(55:33):
You guys are this, you guys are that.
And I was like,
This feels like the best case scenario because now people are seeing them for who theyare, but they were pissed.
Like they were angry about this going viral and about getting called out over and overover again for being a cult and for doing what they did to me and stuff like that.
(55:54):
So for like a week straight, they were going on like a rampage on TikTok Live, trying todefend themselves and doing damage control and trying to lie.
their way out of it.
Like they're like, we've never spoken about her once.
And everyone's like, what?
Like you posted her DMs.
What do you mean you've never spoken about?
(56:16):
So they couldn't even like, like that was it.
Like a spotlight was shown on them.
Like they.
And I think that's so helpful, right?
Because that illustrates how these particular groups, once they are called out, how theyrespond.
And if you give people the opportunity to reveal who they are, they will do it.
(56:39):
So, wow, Taylor, that's an incredible story and thank you for sharing it.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that a lot.
Yeah, I think you said something really important there towards the end, which is if it'scredible, it stands up to scrutiny.
And just in general, when leaders spend this much time having to go after someone, havingto destroy someone, that should be a really good sign for those on the outside looking in
(57:08):
that this is not okay.
So of those things to watch, right?
When we watch a narcissist destroy their victim, we need to be.
You know, paying attention to that for sure.
Taylor, how do people get in touch with you?
So I am Taylor Marie therapy on tik-tok and Instagram and those are my main two platformswhere I post everything that I do So I would say just just go there if you're looking for
(57:37):
me
Yeah, and I feel like there's more to the story and I want to find out about that.
So I'm certainly going to follow you and I encourage everyone, know, this, let this be alesson, right?
If anything that we've talked about tonight resonates with you and your experience, get intouch with Taylor, you know, ask questions.
(58:02):
I'm sure she's open to.
to questions and that's a sign, right?
All of us, we're open to questions, we're open to scrutiny and we're here to help and tosort of get the word out on these particular groups because they do real harm.
Taylor, thank you so much.
thank you so much for having me.
(58:23):
You guys are great.
And thank all of you for listening and we appreciate you tuning in.
And Daniela, obviously she has her books out there, her work, everything you can find her,be sure and follow her.
Big shout out to Haley.
She does a tremendous job producing this podcast and we are very appreciative of them forthe work that Haley does.
(58:51):
Thank you so much.
Daniela, anything you want to add before we conclude tonight?
I just wanna say thanks to all of our Patreons.
You all are the best and we are starting a thing where we are going to be receiving somequestions from our Patreons.
So tune in next week.
If you are one of our Patreon subscribers, you can put some questions on the Ask MeAnything and we'll have a little section at the end where we talk about them.
(59:17):
Thank you so much.
Until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for the Knitting Cult Lady, Danielle Mestinac Young.
We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
Welcome to CULTZ and the CULTing of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd and I'm thrilled to be here once again with my friend.
You know her as the knitting CULT lady, Daniela Mesteneck Young.
And I like your t-shirt and I started to call you out on the t-shirt, but I said thatmight be inappropriate.
(00:49):
So I like your t-shirt.
You know, thanks, just take him back all the things they weaponized against us.
And if you're just listening, it says shameless hussy.
And that's one of my shirts that people like.
So, yep.
get them at Daniela's page, right, along with other t-shirts and sayings and the book,Uncultured.
(01:10):
Yes, yes, and we're still out of books.
I have sold Jeff Bezos out of books.
So that's like my, my accomplishments.
But anyway, for those of you who are listening, if you are patiently waiting for the book,it's good.
It's worth the wait, promise.
Absolutely, it is.
(01:32):
We are thrilled to have Taylor Marie with us tonight and Taylor is going to share with usher story.
Taylor, welcome.
I read a little bit about your experiences and I think lots of folks can relate.
So welcome to the podcast and why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself to ourlisteners.
(01:54):
For sure, Scott.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
My name is Taylor Marie.
I am 26 years old.
I am a mental health therapist in Colorado, specializing in narcissistic abuse and cultrecovery.
I am a cult survivor of an online cult, a fully online cult, for two years.
(02:15):
I escaped last May and I have been rebuilding my life and my career ever since then.
Fantastic.
you know, when you mention online cults, some people are like, can that be a cult?
So first of all, why don't you take a few moments and define what you mean by online cultas opposed to, I suppose, an in-person cult and what that looks like and how you got
(02:40):
caught up in that.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, I would say that there is very little difference between an online cult and anin-person cult, except for the ways that you communicate and have contact with other
members and the cult leaders.
The influence is pretty much the same.
The levels of control is pretty much the same.
(03:02):
The way that they recruit and maintain members is fully online.
compared to in person.
So you find them online or they find you, they love bomb you and wow you online, and thenthey bring you into an online community.
It's very often through live streams, through chat rooms, but all the same, they createthat sense of belonging.
(03:24):
You communicate with other people through social media or the online platform.
And then once you're in it, you're in it.
So it's essentially the same.
And my theory, it's a working theory.
I would love to conduct a research study on this one day.
But I think that the methods of control are all relatively the same except for thebehavior control in terms of what you wear, who you talk to.
(03:51):
Well, not so much who you talk to because my cult told us who we couldn't talk to, butwhat you eat.
It's more of like that behavioral control that's a little bit more difficult for onlinecults.
So I have this theory that the information control, thought control, emotional control,financial, all of that is heightened because of the lack of behavioral.
They have to compensate for that in other areas.
(04:13):
That's just my theory about online cults.
I was recruited into my online cult through TikTok.
They popped up on my For You page.
And the first video that I saw of them, it's two cult leaders and one of them,
they popped up and what got me was the confidence and the charisma of this person.
(04:35):
They were speaking very confidently, very matter of fact, and I felt like I could learnsomething from them.
I was like, wow, like this person has knowledge, like let me learn more about this.
So that's really what pulled me in and it really only took a second to be exposed to them.
Because when you're scrolling, he just popped up and that's how it started.
(04:57):
You know, it's so interesting when I studied this a little bit in graduate school abouthow like when online first started becoming a thing, there was kind of this thinking that
maybe like the way human beings did relationships was fundamentally gonna change.
So, you know, it's always going back through time, the first village censuses that we haverecords of 150 people to 200 people, right?
(05:25):
It's like the,
the 150 to 250 range, because that's like as many relationships as you can hold in yourhead.
And by the way, I lived in a commune that had 250 people when I was little.
That's me on the cover of the book there, yeah.
And then like when Facebook started growing, these online communities started growing forlike a short minute, sociologists were like, huh, I wonder if now we're gonna have like
(05:52):
5,000 friends, right?
Turns out,
Not so, right?
Like human relationships are basically the same.
And I think, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking about the difference between like,when my grandfather was taken off into a cult in the 70s, when like, if you wanted to
(06:14):
isolate an American, but still have constant contact with them, you kind of had to takethem off to your compound.
And back home, everyone was sort of watching the same television, listening to the sameradio.
So you could be polarized, but you were still kind of a shared reality.
But then the internet came along and sort of fractured all of that.
(06:36):
And so it's really kind of almost easier, as you well know, to get sort of isolated in athought system and then in a group and not even realize it.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I love that you say that about the number of friends that you have because I, myfriend group became my online friends from that group.
(06:56):
Like my in-person friends.
I mean, this is a blend of me getting recruited and also moving across the country.
Naturally, I moved away from friends and family.
However, this online group became my friend group and we were like 10, 15, 20 people atmost.
So.
Yeah, and then when you're in that group and they're telling you what content you couldconsume while you're on the social media, that's a little bit about what TV shows you
(07:23):
could watch in the commune, in person, in that group, in that home.
So there's a lot of carryover that's really fascinating and interesting to see.
Taylor, you mentioned the charisma of the people that were doing these TikToks and thatthey recruited you.
Did they reach out to you or did you reach out to them?
(07:45):
And they responded.
What did that interaction look like online in a virtual space?
Because a lot of times when you're in person with these leaders, they absolutely love bombyou and they make you feel special.
But I'm wondering if how that
experience was different because obviously you were interacting with these people online.
(08:08):
Right, yeah.
Similar but different, like a lot of the different tactics that they use.
So when they first popped up on my feed, I followed them and their videos started poppingup on my page more.
And just for context, this former group there, known as Mystic Rebels, it's a spiritualgroup.
So astrology, tarot, herbalism, holistic wellness, all of that.
(08:30):
So I was very big into astrology and tarot at the time.
So it was an astrology video teaching astrology that popped up.
I commented a question on the video because I was like, this person has knowledge.
I want to learn from you.
I think you could answer my question.
Within minutes, him and his wife responded to my comment with a video response andresponded in detail to my question.
(08:54):
And I was like, wow, that was so fast of a response.
And that was super nice of them to take the time to answer because there's a lot of bigcreators on the app that either have too many comments to respond to or they don't see
your comments.
just to be acknowledged in that way, pretty quickly, I was like, that's super nice ofthem.
Then they started live streaming on TikTok.
(09:14):
They started doing TikTok lives a lot.
And I started joining those lives and they were always very warm, very welcoming.
They're like, hey, it's Taylor.
Like, look who's back.
Like they were very acknowledging of my existence.
So I feel like that was the beginning stages of feeling that sense of belongingness, thatsense of being welcomed.
And then other people started being welcomed.
(09:35):
And then you could chat with each other in the chat box when people are live.
It's, know, you guys know, but yeah, so we were typing to each other in the chat box.
So that's how we started communicating with other people in the audience.
So the sense of belongingness grew and the love bombing was interesting because it wentfrom like, oh, everyone's welcome.
(09:58):
Let's learn astrology.
This is going to be so fun.
And then it shifted into
but did you guys know that this is the only system of astrology that works?
And now we're gonna be the special ones who have the real knowledge aside from everyoneelse.
So it was like a quick, in my experience, it was a quick love bombing, but then came likethe sacred knowledge of like, we're all here and just so you guys know, like this is the
(10:27):
real stuff.
So like you're lucky to be here.
And then we were like, wow, like that's so cool.
And then that's kind of how it snowballed into cult-y.
And so this is the important stuff to pull out, right?
Because obviously, Scott, I don't know if this has happened to you yet, but obviously forme as a creator around cult, who's a woman, I get accused of being a cult leader all the
(10:50):
time, right?
And like, because I'm not, I don't have to defend it.
Another little thing I say, but like, what's the difference, right?
So this is one of those differences, you know, that I think is really important.
Because I think people confuse, right, just popularity with like, you're a cult leader,right?
(11:12):
And like, even charisma, like many people are charismatic.
So like, what are these little things?
And I don't know if you've thought through like a list of things, but like, as you werebeing brought in, you know, on...
So for like a flip side example, the other day I mentioned cults always weaponize yourdiscontent.
(11:34):
So having some form of gratitude practice can be important, right?
And then people were like, say more about that.
What do you mean?
And I was like, I'm actually, you know, like, don't necessarily want to like give yourecommendations, right?
I think like it's weird when people start telling you like, this process is what works.
(11:56):
Like this is how you have to do it.
You know, almost always the question is much more complicated than that.
Yeah, and I heard when you were sharing your experience, things that we've talked about,Daniela, the idea of a charismatic leader.
In this case, you had a couple.
And then you had the sacred assumption, right?
(12:18):
And then the special knowledge and the wisdom that was only revealed to this particulargroup.
And so that's what we see these groups doing over and over again.
They exploit a real human need for
belonging and for purpose and for our desires for destiny.
(12:41):
And they exploit that.
And their ultimate goal, as Daniela has pointed out repeatedly, is free labor, right?
They want you to do the work, and they want you to do it for free.
Does that track with your experience, Taylor?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And this was all 100 % online the entire time.
(13:02):
So when people say like, oh, they can't possibly have control over you through theinternet, they absolutely can.
And they did.
And they do.
Even the labor part as well.
I moved up the ranks fairly quickly.
I became their star student fairly quickly because I joined early on, like the same monththat they
(13:25):
made their account on TikTok was the month that I found them.
So I was one of their first students and I was there for two years.
So I was the first and I was there the longest and I was doing everything.
I was taking all the classes.
I was getting all the readings.
was telling other people how great they are and recruiting other people.
Eventually, guess, quote unquote, under them, I started my spiritual business because theysaw in my chart, my astrology chart, hey, you should do a spiritual business like we have.
(13:55):
so I started my business.
I started going live all the time and I built, you know, a good reputation for mybusiness.
I published a book and all of that.
And they took a lot of the credit for the work that I was doing and made it seem likebecause they mentored me and because I was a part of this community that that's why I had
that.
(14:15):
And they kind of had that be the expectation in a way.
So it's, it all tracks.
It all tracks with.
with culty vibes for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So was that a rift, like when you tried to take credit for your work, or how did that go?
(14:36):
Well, I at first didn't realize that's what was happening.
I always felt very honored to be their star student and to promote them and to do thework.
And at first I didn't realize that that's what was happening.
Once I started to realize it and there were a few things that happened, it made me feel alittle uncomfortable, but I never felt like I could question them.
(15:03):
or disagree with them or bring up any form of discomfort with them.
But I do remember it was more of a personal thing, just thinking to myself, being like,wait a minute, I think this is what's happening and I don't like that and I don't think
it's fair.
And then I started to pick up on the fact that there are some people within our communitythat were buying my services and buying my book because the cult leader was telling them
(15:29):
to.
And that's truly what it felt like.
I felt like in my business, I created my own community that I had for myself.
And then my cult leaders had their community and our communities merged a lot of the time.
I felt like my people truly were there for me, but I felt like their people were justfollowing orders.
So if they say, her book, they would buy my book.
(15:49):
I would get more book sales, which means my book is more successful, which means thatthey're more successful because I'm more successful.
It was like this cycle that I noticed.
and it wasn't something that I ever brought up to them.
The rift that happened between us was when I left.
That was the rift that happened.
Yeah.
Yeah, the exit cost, right?
(16:11):
And we've talked about that as well, entrance and exit costs that obviously aren'tarticulated.
And so did this happen over the course of months, years?
What kind of time frame are we talking about here?
So I joined in August of 2022 and I left in May of 2024.
(16:31):
So about two years total I was involved.
About one year total I had my own spiritual business that they were mentoring me throughand was pretty connected to their work.
So yeah, like two full years.
And beyond them taking credit for your work, what was some of the red flags that you beganto notice that sort of started you down the path of leaving?
(17:02):
yeah, so pretty much the us versus them, everyone else, all other astrologers, we weretold not to seek information elsewhere.
We don't read any other books besides their books and resources, which they haven't evenpublished their book yet.
So just don't read books, I guess.
Don't seek information from other astrologers.
(17:24):
Don't get readings from other astrologers.
Don't follow or watch other astrologers' content because they're all scammers.
They're all liars.
They're going to con you out of your money.
So, and in the beginning I felt safe because we were told that we were being protectedfrom fake astrology.
So at first I felt safe, but after two years of hearing the same thing over and over andover again, it started to get really annoying because I was like, you don't think I could
(17:49):
think for myself?
And it started that one, that's one thing that started clicking.
Another thing was, yeah.
say this is one of those really important signs that I like to emphasize.
I have this thing I created called the Guru Gacha Checklist.
But one of the things is like, just like consistently shit talking other experts in yourfield, right?
(18:17):
Like, yeah, sometimes you can have, as I do, a beef with someone's professional, you know,
opinion on something.
But everyone else in your field of expertise is not wrong or out to get you or dumber thanyou or tricking you, you know, and it comes back to what I just say is the focus on your
(18:42):
own uniqueness.
You know, like no true expert thinks they're the only one that has good information inthat area.
They'll constantly actually be pointing you to other experts.
Do you wanna know the funny part about that is that my former cult leader says that hedoesn't have peers in the field.
He's elevated above them because he developed this system of astrology.
(19:06):
Like he created it.
Like he created the only system.
So he doesn't consider any other person in the field his peer.
He's like, it's just no one even comes close to me.
But that's just inherently unscientific.
Like you said, Daniela, experts are
more than happy to cite their sources and refer out and like lead you to other ways ofknowledge.
(19:31):
So like even today I was trying to explain one of my favorite conspiracy theories thatlike no Alexa is not listening to you, it's data pinging you and it's like putting
together all this information and then people are like, but what about, you know, I wasthinking about this thing and I'm like, people think their thoughts happen in a vacuum.
(19:52):
People do and they don't understand that like.
everything is connected, right?
This conversation that we are having is connected to other things.
So funny, because Hayley and I record two podcasts in the same day and often we discusssimilar things, right?
Because I'm the common denominator and we're in these circles and these things come up.
(20:15):
So it's just like, even this concept of like, you had these thoughts on your own.
No, no, you didn't.
I want to return to your story in just a moment, Taylor, but I have a questionspecifically about astrology.
And so I grew up in a Pentecostal cult.
So was a Christian cult and a high control group.
(20:38):
And still, at this point, even though I've long left that going through the process ofdeconstruction, I would still look at myself and
I still think of myself and identify as a Christian.
I'm not sure what that means anymore.
I'm not sure what the parameters of that is.
But I often think because of the inherent seeker mentality of those of us that pursuereligion in its many forms, and it doesn't just have to be Christianity, that that often
(21:14):
sets us up.
you know, the cult-like status or the cult itself is almost impossible to escape if youwant to maintain and hold on to any kind of belief system.
So do you find that there's something with astrology, something with spirituality,something with organized religion that somehow lends itself to these groups or
(21:44):
Can you maintain that belief and practice that belief and be a leader in those beliefswithout creating a cult?
And I don't know what the answer is to this.
I would like both of you to kind of maybe comment on it.
yeah, I definitely think you could be considered a leader in these fields, in spiritualityor religion.
(22:09):
As long as you promote free thinking, you allow people to question you and disagree withyou, you let them talk to other people.
And I think it comes down to how we define and describe a leader and really promotinghealthy leadership, not unhealthy.
leadership.
So if you have someone who's a healthy individual with healthy influence over people thatthey are guiding and they are leading, maybe because they have, you know, they've walked
(22:38):
this path before they have more knowledge.
Maybe they just have something to share.
I do think it's possible to have healthy influence on people as a leader, as long asyou're encouraging them to be the leader of their own lives.
Like as a therapist, I always say to clients like you're the expert on your own life.
I'm here to step into your world.
and look through your worldview to understand you and your perspective.
(23:02):
And then together we'll figure out what that looks like.
And I think that's the safest way to go about it without being a cult leader.
That's just my take on it.
Yeah.
you.
so first of all, yes, I agree with that very much.
And I also think it's like, it's kind of to me, it's like a warning sign if someone'slike, this is the path, right?
(23:23):
Like, everything is so different.
Everything is so complex, right?
All you can hope for in a leader is someone that will do what you said and kind of likeguide you through a complicated process that they don't know either.
You know, like people keep asking me what's going to happen.
And I keep reminding people like, nobody knows, nobody knows what's going to happen rightnow.
(23:47):
But the other thing, like Scott, to your question of like, is it possible to do it good?
And, you know, I very much kind of meta question whether we can have good groups thatdon't hurt individuals kind of under, you know, capitalism and white supremacy and
patriarchy.
But I do think it's easy.
(24:10):
to not build a cult, you just don't coerce and manipulate people and take their labor,right?
And so, you know, because those are the things, like I said, like I didn't want to stay todo online thought influencer stuff, right?
Like I didn't really realize when I wrote a book that, this is part of the job descriptionnow.
(24:32):
And I was kind of creeped out by it.
And so I have been very slowly being not trying to form a group, not trying to tell peoplewhat to think.
And yes, I have leadership and expertise in an area, but these are the different things.
So for me, one of the big things is I just always try to make sure I'm bringing in 25 % to50 % of other people's stuff, other people's content, reading out loud.
(25:00):
I think it's made me curate a very interesting channel, right?
Diversity is always better, but it was also like, I don't want to one, isolate you in myideas, or two, give you the idea that I'm some sort of super smart genius that knows
stuff, right?
It's like, I'm getting it from all of these places.
And my gosh, you know, because you offered me labor when we started the podcast and we hadto talk about that.
(25:29):
And I was like,
You know, I try to be very, very strict.
It's been happening again with the musical I hope to write.
People keep offering me free labor and I'm like, no, I'm not going to take your freelabor, which is also different than saying we can crowdsource something, we can grassroots
something, we can groundswell something.
Absolutely.
(25:49):
But I think there's a big difference there.
And if you are the person who wants to be the leader, especially in these fields of selftransformation.
where like it can sort of easily go astray, I think you have to hold yourself to some highstandards, you know, because it's easy to tell yourself like, this person's learning, you
(26:11):
know, like they're getting something out of this and.
Well, and to be fair, mean, my approaching you wasn't purely altruistic, right?
I wanted to, I recognized, okay, this person has written a book, she's got a following.
I want to do in part some things that you've done and learned from you.
(26:32):
I mean, it was a natural opportunity that I was taking advantage of as well.
And so it was mutually beneficial, I think.
I just, I agree with you, but I just want leaders to hold themselves to a high standard,right?
Like, yes, you did, and you still are doing free labor here now, but like, we've discussedit.
(26:55):
But, you know, where I think it just gets very, people need to be careful of the powerdynamics and people need to know, right?
Like, I know.
that I have so many hundred thousand followers on this platform and I have a successfulbook and so people are going to think that I may be some sort of key to their success and
(27:21):
they want to be part of that.
And it's funny because people warn you when you're on the rise to like be careful ofpeople hitching themselves to the star.
But I want like the person who wants to be a leader.
You know what I've
learned from studying the bad leaders.
It's like, well, don't do that, right?
Don't coerce people, don't manipulate people, don't take their labor, emotional orphysical without compensation.
(27:48):
Don't build exit barriers to exit.
know, it's kind of like, if you don't wanna be a cult leader, just don't build a cult.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's great advice.
Thank you both.
I think that's very helpful.
And Taylor, returning to your story, so you finally reached a point where you were wantingto leave.
(28:09):
And what did that crisis look like that you came to?
did you leave overnight?
Or was this over the course of months?
Take us through that part of the story.
I love how you use the word crisis because that's exactly what it felt like.
It felt like my worldview that was built in this group came crashing down like a house ofcards.
(28:32):
It was like one thing after the other and it did happen fairly rapidly, fairly quickly.
Probably for like a month, a solid month, I was very back and forth about leaving orstaying.
The, so I guess it was like a month long crisis, but the true crisis part was when Icalled my parents and I was like, I don't think I could do this anymore.
(28:55):
Like I was very upset about something that I witnessed happened within the group thatreally just went so significantly against my values and morals as a person.
It just, broke me, but there were things leading up to it.
Like the us versus them started to annoy me.
having it shoved down my throat every day, that this is the one and only way.
(29:15):
Eventually I just got fed up with hearing that every day.
Watching my cult leader love bomb the new people coming in and kind of setting aside thepeople that have been there for a while, it kind of looked a little fake to me.
Feeling like I couldn't disagree with or question him.
There were times where I did have knowledge in certain areas that he was talking about.
(29:39):
and I would express it.
But since he wasn't the quote unquote expert in the room during those conversations, Iwould get shut down and I would get, you know, belittled in a way.
And I didn't like that either.
And then the us versus them, not only was he just saying that to us to keep us away fromthe outside world, but he was actually antagonizing and attacking other creators on the
(30:03):
app.
And he attacked someone who I felt truly did not deserve it.
really badly.
He made all of these wild accusations against this person.
I happened to like this person in secret because I wasn't allowed to enjoy otherastrologers' content.
So when I did, it was always in secret.
I would never bring it up.
(30:24):
I would never tell him.
Eventually, I thought that was also strange to have to keep that part of my life a secret.
I didn't even see that it was strange until probably the last month that I was involved.
So yeah, they not only did the cult leader attack this person, but then the group startedattacking this person.
(30:46):
And from my perspective, they were attacking an innocent person, someone who did notdeserve it.
And that broke me entirely.
And for the first time, I felt like I was on the outside.
I felt like I wasn't.
part of this anymore.
I used to defend this cult leader a lot, but I was like, I can't defend you anymore.
(31:06):
I can't defend these actions anymore.
So that was when I decided that I needed to leave.
And it was probably maybe a couple of weeks after that is when I decided to take theaction to leave.
And like I said earlier, like I called my parents probably like,
probably around two weeks before I actually left, just explaining to them.
(31:28):
And I felt like I had to explain myself.
Like I felt like I had to like, you know, I was just like, and then this happened and thenthis happened.
And like I said, everything just came crashing down.
And there was also a time where I was making a video testimonial for them because theylove video testimonials, like make a video about how great we are.
And I really wanted to make a video about how...
(31:49):
this system of astrology was different than all other systems of astrology.
And I wanted to make a really intelligent, intellectual video describing it because thisastrologer would get a lot of hate on social media for claiming to be the only one.
And everyone accused him of just stealing information from other people and renaming itand claiming it as his own, which is what he did do.
(32:11):
So I was like, as his star student, I'm gonna make this really like educated video.
about how it's different.
And I sat down and I got my pen and my paper to write out my list.
And I was like, no.
I was like, what does make this different than the rest?
And I was like, no.
And I started questioning myself because I was like, I'm a smart person.
(32:33):
Like I have a master's degree.
I read, I study, I learn the system.
I'm like, but I can't.
I can't sit here and describe how this is the one and only way.
The only thing that came to mind was regurgitations of what my cult leader would say.
It works because it just works.
It works because it's the only one that's 100 % accurate 100 % of the time.
It works because I'm aligned with my energies.
(32:56):
That was the doctrine, by the way.
The doctrine was you wanted to align with your energies.
And if you weren't aligned with your energies, then that means you're going to live a badlife.
If you are aligned with your energies, that means you're going to live a good life.
So you would have to go to the leader and pretty much ask like, hey, I wanna do this.
Is this aligned with my energies?
And he'll take a look and he'll say yes or no, essentially.
(33:16):
So I lived with a lot of anxiety too, which is another reason why I wanted to leavebecause it was too much thinking, am I doing the right thing?
Is this aligned?
All of that.
So anyways, went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but I called my parents and theywere like, no, this isn't you, Taylor.
Like, you're not a bully.
You've never bullied people online.
(33:39):
You never had this black and white thinking before.
Like, they're like, this hasn't been you for some time now.
They're like, it's okay that you want to leave.
And I was like, I was like, okay, like, thank you.
And then eventually I did.
I sent them an email going my separate ways.
And that was the start of basically like the mini war that we had on social mediaafterwards.
(34:03):
And you know, there's so much there that I want to point out that I think is helpful thatwe've talked about on this show.
And that's the idea that you began to scrutinize the leader's belief.
And once you start going down that path, I know that was my experience as well, it fallsapart, right?
(34:23):
Because it's, and there were a lot of thought stopping cliches that were thrown at you,right?
Don't think about this too deeply.
It works because it works, right?
You've got to align with energy.
And so I think that's very helpful to people that to know that any group that discouragesyou from asking questions or scrutinizing what they say they believe, probably an occult.
(34:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like it's really that simple.
And this is why one of my 10 commandments for good groups that are not cults isinformation is never bad.
You know, and like when you're even the secret thing that you mentioned, right?
Like it's hard when we're not in cults and we're deconstructed, like it's hard to think ofa valid reason for keeping a secret other than like we're planning this thing to surprise
(35:26):
this person for their birthday, don't tell them.
Right?
A limited secret with an end time.
Most of the time I look at most of our other secret keeping in society and I'm like, thisis just ends justifies the means mentality and this is just hiding information from
people.
You know, something else that stood out to me that you said was like, and this is sort ofevery cult's promise is like, if you do our thing perfectly, you'll have the good life.
(35:58):
But the good life is also, I say it's promised after some space travel, right?
It's always like in another body and another element on another planet and another form.
And what you don't end up is you're like working 10 times harder for this supposedly goodlife.
(36:19):
And in this way, it very much mirrors.
abusive relationships and narcissistic relationships as you mentioned in the beginningwhere it's like you're just working hard to try to get back to this good thing that you
think you experienced, but it was all basically a mirage.
Pray.
And so you mentioned that the exit cost, right?
(36:42):
So the email wasn't the end of it, right?
And that should be another red flag to folks, right?
If the exit is prolonged, if you say that you're leaving and then there's more, that's apretty good indication that you're involved with a cult.
So how did things escalate?
What did that look like on the back end and what kinds of exit costs?
(37:07):
Did you have to pay?
I paid for sure.
And right before I left, for the record, I had a feeling in my gut that it was not gonnago well.
I knew these people and I felt afraid.
I felt afraid to leave, not because I was afraid of not aligning with my energies anymore,which was a fear of mine.
(37:30):
I was like, if I leave, how am I gonna learn the real stuff?
How am I gonna align with my energies and live a good life?
Once I got over that, then I was like,
Oh my gosh, they're gonna retaliate against me if I leave.
I've seen them do it before.
Why would they not do it to me?
That was another red flag.
I was like, I should not feel afraid right now.
This is a sign that I'm in an unhealthy, dangerous situation.
(37:53):
So I knew something was gonna happen.
But anyways, I sent them an email and I was like, the best way for me to avoid retaliationis to just be as kind and respectful as I possibly can.
I was like, Taylor, just send them an email the same way that you would send any serviceprovider that you have worked with.
So I sent them an email.
(38:14):
thanked them for everything.
I expressed so much gratitude.
told them, I was like, hey, I'll still refer people to you.
I'll still recommend you.
I'll still tell people I learned from you.
And I was like, but I'm just going to go on my own path.
Like I'm feeling pulled in a different direction, but I'm always wishing you the best.
And it was so kind and so respectful, probably a little overly.
(38:36):
kind and respectful, but I was like, how could anyone get mad at this?
But I still had this awful feeling.
And not that long after, I think it was only like a few hours after, I'm on my laptopworking and I get an email back from them.
And their email was essentially saying, after everything we've done for you, we feel soused by you, we were there for you no matter what, we gave you everything you needed.
(39:04):
They're like, we gave you your business name because they like named like me and mybusiness.
Like I had a cult name and everything.
They're like, we gave you your name.
And then, cause they were trying to patent their system of astrology so that they couldstart suing people that they deemed were copying from them.
Cause when other people would say, Hey, there's other good astrologers out there.
(39:28):
That could only mean one thing.
Or two things, one, they're a scammer anyway, or two, that means that they're copying fromthis leader because there's no way that anyone else is good if they didn't learn from him
because he's the only one that's good.
So they're trying to patent it so they could sue people.
That was another reason why I left because they started to get excited about the idea ofsuing people.
(39:52):
And I thought that was gross.
I was like, who gets excited over something like this?
Like, why are we finding joy in that?
Side note, that was another reason why I left.
Anyways, in the email, because they were trying to get the patent, they didn't have it,and it didn't go through anyway, they told me that the patent was going to be quote
(40:13):
unquote retroactive, and if they catch me utilizing anything that I've learned from them,then I would be hearing from their legal department.
So they threatened legal action against me on top of trying to make me feel guilty forleaving by outlining everything they've done for me and everything I.
took for granted and took advantage of them for, and yeah.
(40:33):
And that was basically the email.
And I was like, okay.
I guess that was slightly better than the worst it could have been.
But I had this feeling in my gut.
And I was like, I don't think that this is over.
And then I thought to myself, I was like, what are the odds that they're on TikTok liveright now?
(40:56):
So I pull up my phone, I go on TikTok.
and they are live on TikTok talking about me and talking about the emails and talkingabout me leaving.
So they must have gone live probably like a second after they emailed me back.
Cause I saw the email as I came in, I read it, I went to their page, they're live, they'retalking about it.
(41:17):
And obviously all of my friends are in the audience, they're all in the chat.
And a lot of people are like kind of confused about why they're talking about me in thisway and stuff like that.
And they basically made it out to seem that I use them for free information, tookeverything I could have ever wanted from them and more, and then ran off with it.
And then they made it seem like my email was mean and disrespectful.
(41:41):
And like the wife of the husband, the two leaders, her husband and wife was like, my gosh,I could just like, I'm just so hurt right now.
Like just was like acting like she like was about to cry.
And I was like, what?
And I...
watched everyone in the chat who I thought were my friends turn against me within seconds.
(42:05):
These people were buying my book yesterday because these people told them to.
And now today they're lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks at me,literally a day later, simply because the cult leaders told them to.
So I just watched, like I said, within seconds and minutes, all of my friends turn againstme and have this narrative about me.
(42:27):
being told and spread on TikTok live, like how it didn't happen.
So I was like, I didn't even know what to make of it.
I just had like the thousand yard stare.
I was just like, my gosh, like this is happening right now.
So I personally didn't appreciate that whole approach that they took to me leaving.
(42:50):
They also made it seem like I had the audacity to go off and do my own thing.
And that made me mad because I was like,
Who are you to tell me that I'm not allowed to go off and do my own thing?
Like that's weird.
It's weird that you feel like you have that control over me.
Like that made me feel icky.
I was just like, like that's how you see me.
Like that's how you perceived me as like property or like I owed you something.
(43:13):
So, and mind you, I paid for all of my services, which wasn't cheap by the way.
Their readings and classes are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
So to insinuate that I use them for free information was absolutely absurd to me.
I went into debt trying to be a part of this group and to be the star student, to get allthe readings and to align with my energies.
So three days later, I decided to post my own video on TikTok.
(43:40):
And I basically just said, hey, like this is who I am.
I'm a former student.
This is why I left.
This was my experience.
This is how much money I've spent on them, by the way.
So I did not use anyone for free information.
And then I said, this is me like drawing a line between me and them.
(44:01):
Like I'm not affiliated with them anymore.
Their actions don't reflect me anymore.
I don't work under them, for them, near them.
Like I was like, I just want to be done with them.
Like I'm over it.
And this was kind of the very beginning of the whole thing.
I sent them an email.
They emailed me back threatening me.
They went live, I posted a video.
(44:21):
So it kind of snowballed from there.
And my video went viral.
Like it went more viral than anything else I've ever experienced on social media.
This was like my first viral thing that ever happened because everyone in the astrologicalcommunity was just waiting for something to happen with this group.
Because this group and this cult leader was antagonizing everyone.
(44:47):
for years.
They've built up this awful reputation for themselves and people have called them outbefore and it just, it came and it went.
But when the star student who is known as the star student, cause I've been on their livesbefore, they posted videos of me before, like I became known as like their person.
When their star student announced that they left and exposed what went on in the group andwhy they left, everyone like lost their minds over it.
(45:15):
Everyone was like, my.
Gosh, like they were sending it to all these big astrologers, all these big astrologeraccounts started following me and messaging me and it just, it blew up.
It went pretty crazy for a little bit and it was overwhelming.
And in my video, I never described this group as a cult because this was before I did anycult research ever in my life.
(45:37):
I had the...
basic knowledge of what a cult was, which is not the true knowledge.
You know, it's just like the Jim Jones stuff, the poppy, you know, mainstream cult stuff.
Like I had no knowledge of cults.
But when I posted my video, so many people reached out to me and they were like, girl,like, I think you were in a cult.
(45:57):
Like you were in a cult.
And I was like, what?
So I started doing cult research and I was like, my God, I was in a cult.
Like that's crazy.
So yeah, so after I posted my video went viral, my cult online, my former cult, they tookall of their videos down for two and a half months.
Like they disappeared, like they retreated or retracted.
(46:18):
I don't even know.
They took a break.
They disappeared for two and a half months.
And then two and a half months later, they come back on social media and they kind ofrebranded in a way, but then they started talking about me again, but they upped it.
Like they upped what they were doing.
So they took.
Personal things that I told them in personal readings like they took my secrets.
(46:39):
They took my Family stuff that I opened up to them about they took sensitive informationprivate information and just started outing me like everywhere and on all of their live
streams and they also posted a screen recording of my DMS with the cult leader onInstagram for the past six months and they're like, like Taylor's gonna claim that we
(47:02):
haven't supported her like
look at all these DMs of her asking us questions and us supporting her and stuff likethat.
And at first I was like, wow, that was really shitty of them to do.
But then I started getting messages from people who watched the screen recording andthey're like, hey, so this actually looks worse for them than it does for you because from
(47:26):
these messages...
You could see how influenced you were by this person and you could see how culty this guywas and yeah, and the kind of influence he had over you.
And also just like, why is the leader of a group releasing private messages, right?
Like sometimes we're so in it that we don't even see how ridiculous it is.
(47:50):
But this is also what I meant about like, when you're not a cult leader or you're not acult, you don't really have to defend it, right?
But the reason that when you came out, the reason that everything blew up was becauseeveryone else in the community already knew it was a cult.
they were just waiting to have someone from the inside say it, right?
Because they had already experienced that like bad negative interactions.
(48:16):
You know, so it's like, I also think it's this warning sign, I always say when thesegroups or these leaders are like overly defending themselves.
You know, because
legitimate leaders, legitimate groups, first of all, like you don't have the time for thatpettiness.
Like you're busy leading your organization and when somebody leaves, you let them go.
(48:38):
And you rarely like really have to address these like personal things.
And if you're not being a cult leader, your followers or students or whatever, like theyknow that, right?
I always think it's so interesting when people like the thing that cracks
the brainwashing, it's always this feeling of like, I knew, right?
(49:03):
Like I knew it didn't feel right.
So yeah, I don't know.
I do have this thing that I think it's a sign and people are like, no, anyone would wantto defend themselves.
And I'm like, no, if you're not credibly being accused of being a cult, you don't feel theneed to defend yourself.
And if you are,
(49:25):
Probably because you're a cult.
Yep, yep.
Any credible group will stand up to scrutiny.
if you're not a cult, yeah, if you're not a cult, being called a cult should should befunny to you.
It should be like what?
Haha, brush it off, move on.
And if you're actually not a cult, then people will forget about it because you're notdoing cult stuff that's drawing attention to you.
(49:47):
But yeah.
Yeah, if you're not a cult, you're not doing cult stuff.
I mean, that's as simple as it gets, right?
So, wow, you experienced so much, and I'm sorry that you had to go through that.
Where, how did it end?
(50:08):
What happened eventually?
wasn't even the crazy part.
I thought it was at the time, but it just got worse essentially.
So yeah, they posted my DMs.
They exposed all of my secrets, all of the things I told them in confidence, all thethings I told them in private.
And they essentially ripped the bandaid off for me in terms of being exposed on socialmedia, having people know things about you that you never thought people would know.
(50:35):
It kind of hurt my family a little bit, because when my mom started,
seeing and hearing all the stuff that the cult leader was saying about her, which wasinsanely inaccurate to begin with.
That was an interesting time.
It essentially did bring us closer together because we were able to have a very open andhonest conversation about everything.
(50:57):
So I tried for a few months to ignore what they were doing.
like exposing my information, posting my DMs.
I tried ignoring it, but it just kept happening and happening and happening.
And then the lies about me got more and more insane to the point where they were sayingthat I only bought like one or two services.
(51:23):
And I was like, that's a slap in the face.
I went into debt paying for your services, first of all.
Then they said that the reason I left was because I asked the leader to be my mentor.
and he told me no, and I didn't like that.
And I was like, that's insane.
You quite literally were my mentor for two years.
I was the star student.
Like, this doesn't make any sense.
(51:44):
Like, it just got more more untrue and worse and worse and worse.
And in hindsight, hindsight's 20-20, maybe I would have done things differently, but I gotback on TikTok and I defended myself yet again.
And everything that they lied about,
I did a response video and I posted screenshots of the actual proof.
(52:06):
So if they said that I said something in a message, I posted the message and was like,that's a lie.
When they said that I didn't buy any services, I posted every single receipt of everysingle service I ever bought.
And then the total of how much, like it just, I just kind of went through and dissectedeverything.
And then I also went on and I defended my family as well because they were talking badabout my family.
(52:27):
They were like, her family wouldn't support.
her, they told her she was nothing.
I told her she was everything.
Like the cult leader was like, I built her up while her own family was bringing her down.
And I went online to defend my family and I was like, they weren't bringing me down.
They were just concerned because I was doing cult stuff with you and I was going into debtto do cult stuff with you.
(52:49):
They were concerned about me, but they never told me I was nothing.
So this went on for a while.
Eventually I took
all of my videos down because I was tired of going back and forth with them.
This was when the big thing happened.
There was this trend happening on TikTok with Pepe the Puppet.
It was like this picture of this puppet with this like face, like this shocked, like WTFface.
(53:15):
And the trend was basically you put a story over it, something that's like dark ortraumatic and you turn it into something funny, essentially.
It's like dark humor.
So I did the trend for myself.
I didn't even post it.
And the vibe was like, when you think you're joining an astrology community, but really itends up being a cult.
It was something like that.
(53:36):
And I did a few slides of my experience with it.
And I laughed so hard at it when I finished creating it.
And I thought it was so funny.
And I was like, my stuff doesn't go viral anymore on TikTok because the drama's overand...
I'm sure only my friends are gonna see this if I were to post it.
Let me just post it, share it with my friends, take it down right after.
(54:00):
Because it was funny, I'm not gonna lie.
The meme that I made about my cult experience was funny.
And all of my friends found it funny.
And that was all it was meant to be.
Until it casually, within a few days, got 1.8 million views on it.
Like it ended up going.
extremely viral, like way more viral than my first one.
(54:23):
And this isn't me bragging, being like, oh my gosh, I went viral.
It's just what happened.
Like, I was just like, whoa, like I just did not expect that to happen.
Like that's really all that it was.
And it was overwhelming at first because I didn't expect it and it wasn't my intention.
However, I think it hit the nail in the coffin with this whole situation.
It spread so much awareness about this group.
(54:45):
And the funny part is, is that I never even named.
my former group in the caption, in the hashtags, in the slideshow, like in the meme, butthe thousands of comments that I got on it, everyone knew who it was.
Like I didn't even have to name them.
Like everyone knew who it was.
So then the ripple effect is that from that meme that I posted over at their page, theystarted getting called out for being a cult.
(55:12):
And they started getting called out for what they did and said to me after I left, tracingall the way back to the original emails when they were like, like people were standing up
for me.
They're like, the email that you sent her after she left was highly dysfunctional.
Like you were trying to scare her by threatening her.
That was wrong.
It was wrong to share her DMS.
Like you guys are very culty.
You guys are bullies.
(55:33):
You guys are this, you guys are that.
And I was like,
This feels like the best case scenario because now people are seeing them for who theyare, but they were pissed.
Like they were angry about this going viral and about getting called out over and overover again for being a cult and for doing what they did to me and stuff like that.
(55:54):
So for like a week straight, they were going on like a rampage on TikTok Live, trying todefend themselves and doing damage control and trying to lie.
their way out of it.
Like they're like, we've never spoken about her once.
And everyone's like, what?
Like you posted her DMs.
What do you mean you've never spoken about?
(56:16):
So they couldn't even like, like that was it.
Like a spotlight was shown on them.
Like they.
And I think that's so helpful, right?
Because that illustrates how these particular groups, once they are called out, how theyrespond.
And if you give people the opportunity to reveal who they are, they will do it.
(56:39):
So, wow, Taylor, that's an incredible story and thank you for sharing it.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I appreciate that a lot.
Yeah, I think you said something really important there towards the end, which is if it'scredible, it stands up to scrutiny.
And just in general, when leaders spend this much time having to go after someone, havingto destroy someone, that should be a really good sign for those on the outside looking in
(57:08):
that this is not okay.
So of those things to watch, right?
When we watch a narcissist destroy their victim, we need to be.
You know, paying attention to that for sure.
Taylor, how do people get in touch with you?
So I am Taylor Marie therapy on tik-tok and Instagram and those are my main two platformswhere I post everything that I do So I would say just just go there if you're looking for
(57:37):
me
Yeah, and I feel like there's more to the story and I want to find out about that.
So I'm certainly going to follow you and I encourage everyone, know, this, let this be alesson, right?
If anything that we've talked about tonight resonates with you and your experience, get intouch with Taylor, you know, ask questions.
(58:02):
I'm sure she's open to.
to questions and that's a sign, right?
All of us, we're open to questions, we're open to scrutiny and we're here to help and tosort of get the word out on these particular groups because they do real harm.
Taylor, thank you so much.
thank you so much for having me.
(58:23):
You guys are great.
And thank all of you for listening and we appreciate you tuning in.
And Daniela, obviously she has her books out there, her work, everything you can find her,be sure and follow her.
Big shout out to Haley.
She does a tremendous job producing this podcast and we are very appreciative of them forthe work that Haley does.
(58:51):
Thank you so much.
Daniela, anything you want to add before we conclude tonight?
I just wanna say thanks to all of our Patreons.
You all are the best and we are starting a thing where we are going to be receiving somequestions from our Patreons.
So tune in next week.
If you are one of our Patreon subscribers, you can put some questions on the Ask MeAnything and we'll have a little section at the end where we talk about them.
(59:17):
Thank you so much.
Until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for the Knitting Cult Lady, Danielle Mestinac Young.
We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
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