April 1, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of Cults and the Culting of America, host Scott Loyd and guest Daniela Mestenec Young engage in a deep conversation with Ben John about the self-help industry, misguided mentors, and the red flags associated with cult-like organizations. Ben shares his personal journey of being involved in a self-help group that he later recognized as a cult, discussing the tactics used by leaders to manipulate followers. The conversation explores the importance of discernment in seeking guidance, the emotional costs of leaving such groups, and the need for authenticity in personal growth. Ben emphasizes that true growth comes from within and that individuals should be wary of those who exploit vulnerabilities for profit.
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Daniella's Links:
You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd.
I am here with Daniela Mestenec Young, otherwise known as the Knitting Cult Lady.
And Daniela, no problem sending any unwarranted text about war plans or anything likethat.
(00:48):
I can't imagine you doing something like
like two trips to war, working in intelligence, never once accidentally added a reporterto my illegal chat group.
And I think the funny part is here.
the easiest way to explain what happened here is they butt dialed someone while cheatingon their wife, but they're acting like the butt dial is the problem.
(01:14):
I like it.
That's a great analogy and yeah, it rings true.
So lots of issues around the world, lots of issues in DC right now, but thank you forexplaining how that should have been handled, right?
Yeah, mean, it's, just, can't even, you know, like, I just feel like this is, this is whatwe meant.
(01:37):
Like, when I heard this news, I just started laughing.
Like, this is what we meant when we said when you put completely unqualified people intothese positions.
Like, I wasn't saying, like, Hegseth was bad because he is that garbage vet bro that wehave all served with, that we all hate to the core of our beings, because, like, that
would have been political.
(01:58):
I was saying that like when you put an unqualified person in to run the Department ofDefense, this is sort of what happens.
But it's just, I don't know, it's been this weird version for me of like, everyone's gonnasee that we're in a cult now, right?
Like every veteran understands this.
(02:19):
Like every single veteran has spent their entire career.
getting talked to about how their life would be over if they messed up secrets.
And now we're just like, we get to watch this on the largest scale and just get to seelike, are these men, these gurus at the top, this like culture that's being run right now
on like masculinity and ketamine, you know, like, how's it gonna go?
(02:47):
Which I just leads us well to our guest.
I'm excited about the conversation that we're gonna have.
about leadership today.
Yeah, joining us is Ben John.
Ben, welcome to our culty podcast here where we talk about how even good motives sometimesend up with unintended consequences.
(03:15):
And I think perhaps as you tell your story tonight, we can see that happening with lots offolks who get caught up in this sort of self-help
self-help movement.
So why don't you introduce yourself and we'll talk about it.
Yeah.
Well, how you doing, Scott?
How you doing, Daniela?
My name is Benjamin John.
(03:38):
yeah, so lately I've been, I love this topic because it's my passion lately and it's beena huge part of my life.
You know, what I'm focusing on these days is helping people identify what I call misguidedmentors and helping them navigate the predatory self-help space.
(03:58):
You know, and I see the huge problem in this after I
went through it myself for several years and then came out and then like looking back andreflecting on my own experience.
like, wow, I see a huge problem with this, especially this being such an unregulatedindustry.
You know, if nobody's going to do anything about it, I took it upon myself to do thingslike this podcasting and talking on my own channel.
(04:21):
know, publicly speaking, writing books about this, like this is something that if I can'tdo anything about it, nobody's doing anything about it.
The least I could do is get in front of it and at least put information out there to bringawareness and encourage discernment, you know.
I was under the impression that maybe the self-help industry, the cottage industry thathas grown up around a lot of this was sort of seeing a down scale in its popularity.
(04:50):
But it seems now it's coming back and it seems to be what I've observed.
You can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure there's all kinds of self-help gurus out there.
But what I've observed is that I'm seeing a big movement among young men who areidentifying other men, right, to quote unquote mentor them in this idea of masculinity.
(05:19):
But we see a lot of tropes, a lot of problems developing around this kind of idea.
Am I wrong about my impression that we're seeing kind of a boom now with
with men and young men?
Well, no, you're not wrong, but the entire coaching and mentorship industry blew up as awhole.
(05:41):
But you're right when we're talking about the whole alpha male posturing masculinity, youknow, that type of movement that's going on lately, that seems to be attracting to some of
these young men and it's starting to blow up and, know, I don't, it's,
It's something I guess I slightly gravitated towards myself, but I don't know.
(06:06):
I didn't get deep into that as much as some of these people are, but it's kind of likeI've talked about it this way.
It's almost like Stockholm syndrome in a way.
It's weird.
These guys are all jacked up on steroids will kind of shame you, shame your bank account,shame who you are, your physique.
You got a little extra pounds on you.
And then turn around and tell you that they care about you.
(06:28):
They're telling you this because they care about you.
And then they'll take it a step further and say, nobody in your life is telling you thisbecause they don't care about you.
So now they've created this whole atmosphere where they're the only one that cares aboutthem in their life.
And they just put this huge amount of status just by doing that, that one thing andframing it that way.
(06:48):
but yeah, you're right.
There's a target on a lot of young men, unfortunately.
And, that's just one segment and like one sector of the, unethical self-help space.
And you know, this is such a cult leader tactic, by the way, a couple things that you saidthere.
One, which is weaponizing the discontent, right?
Which is just, you know, I say cults are great at that.
(07:11):
they feel like I have paid $13,000 to a cult guru who was absolutely scamming me, right?
Just like upfront when I should have known better, right?
And it's just, it's such a cult leader tactic to
both shame you.
I remember this woman was like, so you don't, you're not a strong woman.
(07:33):
You don't actually have the money to put into this without asking a man for help and forpermission.
And she just zeroed in on the exact thing that was gonna get me to be like, no, I can dothis, right?
Both like, I need you, but also you're belittling me at the same time.
(07:55):
Yeah, well that's calculated mental manipulation that was going on there, sounds like.
Sounds like she knew what she was doing.
Yup.
Ben, tell us a little bit about your story and your background and how you started seeingsome of the problems in these particular groups.
Yeah, how can I fast track this story?
(08:16):
I guess let me, let me, I gotta respectfully ask, are you guys okay with me just cause Ihave no filter with like calling people out by name and like I'm pretty raw, but I'd have
respect for people that don't want that on their, their channel.
So I guess my question is, do you guys want me to put a filter on talking about specificpeople and things and sharing my experience as it is, or make sure it's not edited.
(08:42):
I think maybe if you could try to avoid names, but if it just has to be said, it has to besaid.
We're doing things.
okay.
I'll do my best.
And then going back to what you were saying earlier, Scott, this will kind of segue intoanswering that question.
But the reason I know that the coaching industry blew up in the pandemic was becausethat's when I got involved in it.
(09:07):
And at that time, it was like 2020 pandemic, it was kind of already intact at that pointfor some time.
and I have a construction company.
And at that time it was a couple of years old, doing good.
And next thing you know, I got introduced to an individual by book he wrote.
(09:28):
It's this huge self-proclaimed billionaire guy that everybody knows.
He's all over the place.
And I started listening to this audio book and like, you know, it starts getting in myhead, just to be honest.
Like he really gets in my head with some of these sayings about like,
And some of them are good things.
Some of them are good and can be used for good, but I found out the deeper I went thatthey were being used for bad and for the agenda to serve them and had nothing to do with
(09:55):
helping me.
But thinking back on it now, they're saying just like, know, commit first, figure out therest later, invest in yourself, those who pay attention, network is your net worth, so on
and so forth.
We've all heard these sayings regurgitated in every single
public speaking self-help room, right?
(10:16):
But I had not heard those before.
And so I was kind of a motivational entrepreneur already.
And so it was kind of feeding me.
And then I would hear him say things like, you I'm now living my full potential.
I'm, you know, disappointing my family because I'm not aiming for higher goals.
And like, you know, this whole shaming through a book, this is all happening.
(10:38):
And then, you know, as the next year went by, I went to in-person events.
I'm spending 18,000 here, 25,000 here, 40,000 here, 10 there, five there, working up to acouple hundred thousand dollars in buying stuff from this guy and becoming a business
(10:59):
coach, a certified coach for him and everything.
So over the span of a few years of me doing that, had a really crazy spiritual momentwhere I woke up.
realized I was in a cult, left, voluntarily left our organization, said I don't want to bea part of it anymore.
And then I started learning more about cults.
I really didn't know much about cults and started learning more about cults, morespecifically finding out this guy is actually one of the biggest contributors of
(11:23):
Scientology and is a Scientologist.
So I started learning about Scientology.
So my mind was blown to find out that my mentor for the last few years,
is a cult, part of a huge cult, and I was part of a spinoff cult.
So that's kind of how I got into it.
I don't know if that answered your question or not, Scott.
Yeah, and it's interesting.
(11:46):
know, Daniela has pointed out correctly that one of the tactics of a lot of these groupsis what we call a thought stopping cliche.
And usually this is in response to a question.
If somebody observes something that's going on, they're like, you know, this looks alittle suspect here.
(12:07):
You know, the leader or the organization spits out
this diatribe that sounds nice, right, on the surface, but if you go right below thesurface, they're not saying anything at all.
And I think what you described, a lot of these positive affirmations, they work in thesame way that thought-stopping cliches work, because you're sort of mesmerized at the
(12:31):
moment, right?
It resonates with you on some level, and you're like, yes, this person has the answer toall of my problems.
But the fact of the matter remains, if you start thinking about it under scrutiny, thesesayings fall apart rather quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, I want to take this time to just tell the audience about Elgats, largegroup awareness trainings.
(12:58):
And it honestly probably would have been fine to say the name of who you were talkingabout, but I kind of love that you don't know.
Like in my head, it's anyone who ends in Oni Robbins, right?
But like, there are so many of them.
And this has actually been high drama in the cult world, high drama.
(13:18):
Okay, so for decades, cult scholars have been saying, hey, these trainings, right, largegroup awareness trainings, EST landmark, anything that ends in Oni Robbins, right, where
they are bringing you in and like kind of like weaponizing self-help.
And they've been saying like, this is shysty, right?
(13:42):
Like these are cult tactics.
And a lot of times I think it's like,
I don't care what you're saying, like this is a cult tactic.
It can be weaponized, it can be used for bad, even if we haven't figured it out yet.
So in 1995, Margaret Singer, who's one of the cult godmothers, right, cult studygodmothers, she writes a book and she writes about Elgats and how concerning they are.
(14:07):
And she got sanctioned by the American Psychological Association.
for basically talking about this being concerning when you don't have the stuff to back itup.
And like 100 % we know that like the APA was wrong, right?
Like we know now this, like exactly what you're saying, Ben, but the problem is here theystill are, right?
(14:32):
In 2020, right?
So in 1995, it's being written about as like, these are harming people.
These are using tactics, right?
she just writes about hyperventilation.
And you just read about how these people use stuff like hyperventilation, getting you upand down, having you chant, things like bathroom control, right?
(14:54):
You'll never be the same again.
Like you'll see it all right there.
But it was so like, you know, really what I wanna get to here is something that you said.
You were like, it helped me.
It spoke to me, right?
And because these...
These trainings, they know what they're doing and they know how to be very heuristicallyeffective.
(15:17):
They know how to make you feel like something happened, like you went through somethingreally profound.
And you will, as you said, like commit your life, your money, your followership, all ofthis stuff.
And the last thing I just wanna point out, which I know you know, but I'm sure theytrashed you as soon as you woke up and said you didn't wanna be a part, right?
(15:41):
They actually blocked me more than anything.
And I was, it was crazy because I, you know, and I documented all that stuff and I keep itall up on my page so people could see it.
But yeah, I was very professional, very polite and just said, Hey, you know, I'd like tolove, love to have a conversation with, you know, my mentor, my former mentor now, and
(16:02):
just kind of just pick his brain on why he teaches people to do things this way, why hethinks it's okay to treat people this way.
Just some simple questions like that.
I was saying, I think that's the least you owe me.
I've been pretty loyal.
spent lots of money, almost a quarter million dollars with you guys.
But yeah, when you were saying, Daniela, this whole thinking about the whole transcendingof this, I thought after, because I realized it's been about a year and a half now.
(16:29):
So I've had a lot of time to kind of learn about cults and learn about this stuff now.
And I'm now...
more fascinated because now that I'm trying to help people, want to know how this is, youknow, I want to, in order to help somebody, got to explain how it's happening, you But
thinking about my own experience just from a book, from a book, being able to incept mymind with thoughts and kind of be able to prey on my vulnerability got me to get closer to
(17:02):
the organization.
And then when I got,
in the organization and like at these events, there's just a lot of attractive energy.
The whole, I mean, there's just a lot of rah rah rah going on.
Everybody's, you know, trying to be all positive and, it's just very attractive.
Let's put it that way.
It's hard to say no in rooms like that to people.
And that's when they start selling stuff to you, start throwing around free alcohol too.
(17:26):
Like there's just so much that goes on.
later people come by with like, should have said no.
You'll appreciate that I'm ending my book with talking about how a Taylor Swift Ears tourconcert can be the perfect, could be like in theory, the perfect call induction ceremony.
Because like 100 % everything you said, right?
(17:47):
It's like that energy is so hard to explain.
if you haven't experienced, I think.
But it's just so attractive to people that don't know, I think, how destructive it can be.
And even so, it's a fun ride.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They create this whole facade that, you know, and this is just one, like I said, there'sso many layers to this that I talk about and I'm sure you guys do too as well, but the
(18:15):
facade of this group and this community that you're now part of being elite and highperformance individuals, above average, you know, like, you know, if you're not paying,
paying attention to yourself, you're not really like grounded.
You're not in touch with your intuition and your conscious to do the right thing.
you'll get lost in that big time.
(18:37):
You're gonna have a hard time.
If you have a hard time saying no, which a lot of people unfortunately do, you're gonnareally struggle in these environments, turning down offers and things that seem really,
really attractive when it's presented to you in the right way.
Ben, you talked about waking up one day and sort of having this epiphany, but I imaginethere were red flags along the way that now looking back upon reflection, you're able to
(19:02):
see them.
So can you talk a little bit about maybe the epiphany that you had, what that looked likeand how that came about?
And then maybe now where you're at looking back, if you would have been desirable to do soor in a position to do so,
What were some of the red flags that you now see that you didn't see then?
(19:24):
Yeah.
So the moment it's really more, if I start talking about that too much, we're going tostart going down a deep spiritual conversation.
and I gotta be careful when I do that.
Cause I don't want people thinking that I went from one cult to a religious cult.
I'm not religious.
you know, I do believe in higher powers and things like that, but I'm not a religiousperson and I've never read the Bible nor that.
(19:49):
So I guess I better just start by saying that.
but.
Some things happen to me, let's just put it this way, things are happening to me that havenever happened to me in my entire 40 years of living.
That's the best way I can explain it.
Just like crazy things in my life that were kind of unexplainable.
was like, you just couldn't explain it.
(20:10):
But thank God my daughter was here with me, friends, my girlfriend actually kind ofwitnessed some of this stuff with me.
Otherwise no one would ever believe it.
But I just had some...
I don't know, people call them downloads sometimes, people call them messages, whatever.
I had like moments like that, if you will, to pay attention to certain things I had beenignoring for years.
And those red flags that you're talking about, it literally was like, I've explained it inthis way, where it's like my life flashing before my eyes, it was all the red flags I
(20:39):
ignored all at once, right in front of me, it's like I could like vividly remember allthese moments I had ignored and fell off to me and...
I was wondering if anybody else thought the same thing I did or, you but it was, that'show it happened to me.
It was, it was literally so fast.
All this stuff happened in probably a week when I woke up to making that decision offinally leaving.
(21:01):
But,
Before we get to the red flags, and I want you to unpack that a little bit for us, butlet's back up just a moment and talk about your disposition.
What attracted you to the group?
Where were you at personally?
What was happening?
Because in our conversations, obviously a lot of these groups, whether they're religiousor self-help motivational type groups, they tend to identify and then prey on people who
(21:28):
sometimes find themselves in a vulnerable
position.
As Daniel has pointed out, that's not always the case, but a lot of times these kinds ofgroups, especially if you think about the mission of a self-help, right?
It's in the definition.
You're reaching out to people who need help.
So what did your life look like and what was it about this group in particular thatattracted you to it?
(21:56):
Um, so another thing that got me was what I realized, what I call now, I don't know ifit's a thing, but I call it this, I call it fake vulnerability.
So a lot of these, uh, self-serving entrepreneurs are very good at kind of making it seemas though they're dropping their guard and kind of getting real vulnerable with you so
that you're going to now open up and you're now going to start, um, trusting them.
(22:20):
think.
And at least that's what it feels like to me after, like I said, after analyzing all thisstuff and what I went through.
in case you want the star student, gold star, I call this hacking vulnerability.
Yeah, after 22 years of studying this.
Yeah, I'm like, yes, and this is one of the things that people have asked me afterwards.
(22:42):
They say, but I don't understand.
They created such vulnerability and I really needed that, that spoke to me, right?
It's one of the reasons I say that you can't have good cults, right?
Because you can't like hack human nature for good, I think.
(23:03):
And, you know, one of the ways I've learned this was through being an author and you maybehave this feeling by doing, you know, doing podcasts and sharing your stuff.
But like when I have to go into a book club, right?
That is like...
Chosen vulnerability.
Like I'm going in, everyone's read my life story, which is very intense.
And I'm like laying myself open for the group.
(23:26):
Right?
And I believe that almost every call asks you to do this all of the time.
Right?
But like the next day, I feel like I feel like I'm under, that night, I feel like I'm highon people.
It's a very enjoyable experience for me.
And then the next day I feel like I'm under concrete.
(23:46):
And I know that now because I take the time to experience all of those feelings.
And it's not like necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, right?
Like I've been talking about this today too.
It's just a tool.
Vulnerability is a tool of connection, right?
But like when you're using it, when you're doing it, like you said, like these guru typesare like, you don't know how to explain it, but they're faking it, right?
(24:11):
And they're really like,
And I feel the same way a lot of times.
I'm like, this is how like we know when people are being vulnerable and like trulyvulnerable and we can connect to them.
And then we know, I think, when there's kind of this veneer, but it's almost like they'redoing vulnerability just a little bit better and a little bit shinier than everyone.
(24:33):
And don't you want to be like that?
And one of the things I always say is like, then cults absolutely do not care how muchthat vulnerability harms you.
Right?
So like I do the book club and then I give myself time off afterwards.
But like in a cult, I would just be doing that again the next morning.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so, and so, yeah.
So I'm glad that it's funny because I'm not a professional.
(24:55):
I have not been studying this stuff for years.
And this is just from me just kind of transcribing my own experience and kind of, puttingsome type of explanation to what I experienced and how everything happened.
And so I think I'm doing a pretty good job because that's what it felt like it happened.
So to answer your question, Scott,
(25:16):
That's one of the things that attracted me was that fake vulnerability, make, you know,he's this guy's talking about how his dad passed away when he was 10.
my dad passed away and I didn't pass away.
He, pre practically passed away, left the family when I was three and I don't know my dad.
So I kind of felt not the same story, but still felt like growing up without a dadconnection there.
(25:36):
you know, just the whole, blue collar worker growing up from like, so it, like, Danielawas saying it's used for.
connection and then when someone has ill intentions of using that connection for servingtheir own agenda, that's where it kind of gets really iffy.
But that attracted me and I can't remember where you wanted me to segue into theattraction, but there's a lot of things that attracted me, but that was one of it.
(26:02):
Being part of fitting in with that community also, we talked about that.
That was definitely part of it.
A lot of people don't admit that, but to be honest, that was an attraction.
Well, and that's a completely normal human reaction, right?
We all want to fit in.
We all want to feel like we belong to a group, to a community.
(26:23):
And that's what these groups do.
That's what these cult leaders do is that they prey on a real human need.
And then a lot of times, as I was listening to you and Daniela talk, what these folks do,right, is that they tell you
what your problem is.
And then because most of us have never, you know, been self-reflective enough to look intothe depths of ourselves and think about what our problems.
(26:53):
Somebody comes along and they're charismatic and they appear to have everything together.
And then they're able to look at you and articulate your feelings better than you can inthe moment.
And then to give you an opportunity, right?
To become a part
of a group where everyone has had this experience, that is a powerful appeal to everyone.
(27:20):
Yeah.
absolutely.
And that's honest, you know, and like you said, it's a natural, biological thing, right?
Yeah, well, and you know, it's so interesting.
I want to point out this feature of charisma and like double down on this thing of like,it's a tool.
It's a tool and a skill that not everybody has, but that some people have to be able tolook at you and figure out what's bothering you and to be able to put it into words in
(27:45):
ways you've never heard it before.
And by the way, the reason they can usually do that is because they've been doing this fora long time.
Right.
But I, I do this, right?
Like,
I have the Swifty-ian ability of saying something in a way that nobody's ever said itbefore, and then when you hear it, you're like, yeah.
And then I choose every day to not use that to manipulate people.
(28:07):
So it's very like, like today I said that like cult hate gossip, right?
Which turned into an argument of whether gossip was good or bad.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Tools are gray, except maybe orange sometimes in the case of president.
Like tools are gray and how you use them is what matters.
(28:29):
And this I think is what is fundamentally so hard about gurus.
And I'm gonna say this several times in the next 30 minutes.
One of my favorite cult like inoculation vaccines is from Dr.
Janja Lalich.
And she just says, there are no gurus.
Like you do what you need to do for spirituality, for your life, but like there are nogurus.
(28:52):
End point.
Period in between every word.
Nuts.
I agree.
It's all it's all it is really all within us.
And again, using another example of like how some a good saying can be used for bad.
Some of these people that say stuff like that as a leader don't actually mean that they'lltell you things like that.
Like you have everything you need inside you.
But then on the other flip side, kind of suggest you to seek them for the answers and seekthem for the success.
(29:19):
And that that answers your question, Scott.
One of the red flags I've realized now after going through that is that is a huge red flagthat I teach to people is like if you have a mentor or a coach or you're looking for that,
one of the ways you can tell if they're actually an ethical person is if they'reencouraging you to think for yourself.
If they're not doing that and they're encouraging you to seek them for success, for ablueprint, for a playbook, that's a red flag.
(29:47):
yeah.
And here's a red flag that I don't think people think about sometimes.
It's a red flag when they're pointing out red flags and then they don't point out the redflags about themselves.
That's my best way to say it, right?
So I'm always saying beware of people who know a lot about the bad guys, right?
(30:10):
Like that's how they learn to do it.
They study other bad guys, right?
And then people think it's a great gotcha question, right?
They think as though I don't do this for a living, they're the first person that has eversaid this.
And they just look at me and they go, so we should be afraid of you?
And I look them back and I'm like, with all due respect, yes.
Yes, you should be afraid of me.
(30:31):
And if I invite you to my compound, maybe don't come.
Like the energy is gonna be great, right?
But like.
And if I said, by the way, no, and I started explaining why like my version of, no, I doknow a lot about the bad guys, which means I would know how to do it.
(30:52):
And I choose not to, you know, and I kind of believe in the journey of every cult leaderand like, what did you call them?
Malevolent mentors, malicious mentors, misguided mentors, there you go.
Malevolent, malicious, misguided, my.
I like malevolent too though.
(31:13):
in every journey is like a charismatic person, right?
Which everyone agrees means like there are things about you that you're just better atsome things than other humans and we don't know how to explain why.
And at some point they're like, how am I gonna use this, right?
Like we can all think of a little Elon Musk marching along being like, hmm, I'm better atsome things than other people.
(31:37):
And then at some point, I call it sampling the Kool-Aid.
They drink just enough to actually start believing that they're the one that's gonna bedifferent.
They're the one that's gonna do it better.
They're the one that's gonna, and then at some point they just go full super villain.
And I don't think they even think, for most of us, we need to think that we're the goodguy and we need to set up the world like that.
(32:04):
But I think at some point, charismatic leaders
have become deified in their own minds and they're just like, I can do what I want.
And now I wanna test my power.
The most dangerous villain, is the one who thinks that they are the hero.
And that presents all kinds of issues and problems.
(32:25):
So Ben, tell us a little bit about what you're doing these days and how you're endeavoringto take what you have learned and to help others get through that.
What does that look like for you now going forward?
well, not to, you know, not to come off as a, as a hero or anything, but, I'm just tryingto help as much as I can.
(32:46):
Obviously, I I've realized in reality, Colts aren't going away.
misguided mentors aren't going away.
The coaching industry space is just going to keep scaling.
And so the only thing I can do is, is bring awareness.
you know,
get loud about this stuff, talk about my on my own pages, jump on podcasts like this.
(33:09):
I think that me talking has a lot of weight behind it because I'm not just a spectator.
went through, you even though I didn't go through a traditional cult like Scientology,mean, the cult I went through technically, it feels just like a spin-off Scientology cult.
And so I don't help anybody, let's put it that way.
(33:32):
If that means I just keep doing what I'm doing publicly speaking, finishing this thirdbook that I'm working on, also going to be called Today's Misguided Mentors.
I am a business consultant as well, but I stopped when I left grants.
And because a lot of the videos that I put in my coaching program, I'm not in alignmentwith anymore.
(33:57):
And also I'm out here calling out
coaches and mentors and stuff like that.
So there's like a bit of a, I don't know, uncertainty about that, but I've been prettyvulnerable with people and transparent asking people's advice and suggestions on, know,
should I ever sell a course again?
Are all courses bad?
Stuff like that.
(34:20):
is
to the right place.
Well, that would that be weird teaching putting out courses to help people prepare forcourses or putting out courses to help people prepare for going into a networking space or
a self help space?
I don't know.
So these are.
someone that does this in the public sphere.
(34:42):
So talk a little bit about the tension maybe that you feel in this situation.
So first of all, I will give you my opinion about you for whatever is worth knowing youfor 40 minutes, right?
Like you're on your journey.
You're on your journey.
And as long as you make sure, you know, people always ask me, so how do you not build acult?
(35:03):
Right?
And I'm like, okay, this is really important and really complicated.
All right.
You don't coerce and manipulate people and exploit their labor.
That's it.
Yep.
so, so my personal experience with this, right, because as soon as you said what you did,I was like, I want to ask you how many times you've been called a cult leader, right?
(35:24):
Because you will, if it hasn't happened yet, it will, you'll be called the malevolentmentor, right?
Like you'll get all of this stuff directed at you.
And in part, I believe that's because cult members or undeconstructed ex-cult members,like they haven't experienced non-deceptive sales.
And so they don't understand, right?
(35:46):
So I get accused of being a cult leader or a psychological operation yesterday all thetime, right?
And it's like, no, I'm here, I'm using influence tactics and I'm selling, but I'm sellinga product, my book, right?
Which I went out and wrote the one I needed for my journey.
And I think if you're on a similar journey, this product will help you.
(36:10):
And if you get me money, you will get this product.
and being popular, so for you, right, selling horses, like being popular and giving peoplea product that is not deceptively sold or hooked or pimped or made to be something it's
not, right, like is not deceptive.
(36:31):
But, yes, and what I was gonna say to you is I think the superpower,
And I really think Uncultured did this in the realm of cult books was showing that like ascult babies, like we have something else to teach you other than surviving trauma, which
is group behavior, right?
I see cults everywhere, right?
(36:53):
And I feel like once you have been through a process of coercive control, right?
You see it now.
You see it now.
It's just like, I've spent 24 hours trying to explain to people why I know.
that that text thread wasn't an accident, right?
And it's because I know the internal language and I know that nobody ever wanted to bethat embarrassed on purpose, right?
(37:18):
Like I am read into the secrets, right?
So now you know the patterns of manipulation, okay?
So what I did when I realized that I would have to be on the internet being a personalityif I wanted...
to get my ideas out and if I wanted to sell my book.
(37:38):
And I was like, no, I don't like it, it's culty.
So I went and I created the Guru Gotcha checklist, which of course folks, we will linkhere.
You can sign up on my website.
Here's what's gonna happen.
You're gonna give me your email.
You're gonna get my lists of culty things, these tools that I have created.
(37:59):
I will also then probably use your email to let you know about Culting of America or otherfuture products that I create, like a writing course, which I think might help you.
We're not being deceptive here.
This is our lead funnel.
That's what it's for, the Guru Gacha checklist.
It's a 20 part list.
And I made it to keep myself in check.
(38:21):
Mmm, nice.
me, right, like, you worried about being a cult leader?
No, because I'm not gonna sample my Kool-Aid.
I make sure the 25 to 50 % of everything on my channel is from other people.
I'm not the guru, right?
And I'm not gonna just decide to start manipulating and coercing people.
So I think like, if this is how you're approaching it, right, like, you have...
(38:45):
stuff to teach because people haven't experienced that.
And as you said, these con men are not going anywhere, they're going to keep targetingpeople and they only get better at it.
And but you have a tool.
And surgeons are really good at cutting people up, but they're also really good at cuttingpeople up.
So it's really like, how much do you believe in not being a guru?
(39:08):
And now take that and do good things with your knowledge.
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
And I really think that I needed to hear that from your perspective, because it soundslike you literally went through a lot of the thought processes that I went through over
the last several months is in the hesitancy of being labeled a whatever a wannabe.
(39:29):
I, answer your question, Scott, I get all kinds of accusations of me being a coaching scamor two.
And I haven't even sold any coaching for a year and a half since I left.
Even me never have sold anything in the last year and a half.
Even me jumping on my page and saying, I'm giving out refunds.
If I ever manipulated you into a sale, I, and you bought something from me that I, I feltlike I forced you to reach out to me.
(39:52):
I'm giving you your money back.
And, I did all kinds of stuff like that, um, just to try to really let people know thatlike, this is a shift and a commitment I'm making.
I'm not that person anymore, but you said something I don't want to forget to bring up.
Daniela.
Um, you said a lot of ex cult members don't understand, um, don't understand.
deceptive cells selling, think something like that.
(40:16):
Non deceptive sales.
Yeah.
So I have a unique introduction into the Colts because like I said, if you remember, I hadalready had a company for a couple of years doing successful and I did not, I went into it
literally just trying to do a good job, give them a good experience, trying to just.
(40:37):
brand awareness in the local community.
I was just literally trying to just do like grassroots, honest work.
I wasn't chasing money.
It was only when I got hooked up with my mentor and then started going down that path thatI slowly started adopting his thought process and his sales tactics, which are deception,
(41:00):
manipulation, shaming, interrogating, harassing, bullying, all that stuff into gettingsales.
And I really didn't even realize that I was kind of doing that, but I was training underhim.
And so I thought, hey, he's this multi-billionaire, proclaimed multi-billionaire.
If I want to achieve that kind of level, I guess maybe you know something, I should justdo it.
(41:23):
So over the years, I started kind of indoctrinating his sales process.
So yes, I still made sales.
Yes, I still did good in my company.
The problem was it didn't feel good.
These sales hours I was making felt really slimy and bad and unethical because I was nowusing, you know, like NLP tactics to kind of really manipulate this situation.
(41:44):
And so now when I left that organization, I had to go back to what myself being myself andlike, you know, deconstructing all that unethical ways I just was taught now for several
years.
So it's been a roller coaster, but I do know what ethical sales looks like, thankfully.
Yeah, and if you don't know or listeners don't know, this is called a pseudo personality,by the way.
(42:06):
And like, even if nothing else you said had been culty, the fact that you feel like youhave to go back to a different person than you were, like, that is a true cult experience,
right?
And you have to take off the cult persona.
And sometimes people think you're going back to who you were, but of course you're notbecause you have now been changed forever by your encounter with a cult.
(42:30):
and you have to figure out now who you are.
And so when I said to you, right, like you're on your journey, like you are, you saidyou've been at it for a year and a half, you know?
So the decade of deconstruction, I have named so for a reason, but like when people comeout of cults or high control groups and say they wanna help other people, like I think
(42:56):
that's beautiful.
And I think that like being authentic, you something that you said really stuck with me.
It's like you don't actually have to study all of this if you just really authenticallytell your story.
Everyone else who's been under coercive control is gonna relate to it.
(43:19):
Like that's the concept that I wrote uncultured with.
Like I was literally told, Danielle, there's no market for your stories because peoplecan't relate to growing up in a sex cult or being a woman at war.
But like everyone can relate to being scared and wishing they were somewhere else and, youknow, having group pressures, pressing down on them.
And like, if it works, if it's valid, it stands up to scrutiny, right?
(43:42):
So if you are like validly telling a story of how you were manipulated.
You know, think one of the things is we all think other people aren't going to get it andwe're going to look so stupid.
And like, in reality, that's what gives you the validity.
And that's what gives you the vulnerability is like, because I can tell from talking toyou that you've experienced coercive control and now you're trying to unbraid it and help
(44:08):
other people not experience it.
Like, that's not deceptive.
Whatever, whatever phase you're at in your journey, you know, you're just at that phase.
Yeah, I love that.
I'm looking forward to all the phases and I can see this just getting better and better.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of plans for, for this.
And, yeah, it's it for the long, when I first left and transitioned, there was a lot ofpeople thought I was crazy.
(44:35):
Thought it was a phase.
Like a lot of people called me like, are you okay, man?
Like, you know, I used to, you know, see you doing this and this and this, and thenovernight you're like totally over here now.
I was like, I've never been better in my life, man.
But I had a lot of phone calls like that.
Yeah, mean getting getting free is great and also really hard
(44:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Because in addition to what you gave up while you were in the group, we've talked aboutthis on our program, there are exit costs to leaving a cult that people don't consider.
But on the other side of that, not only are you deconstructing and going through thisprocess of rediscovering who you are, your authentic self, but you're also having to
(45:26):
endure as well-meaning as they might have been being blocked or being called and saying,you sure you're okay?
Everything okay?
And I imagine that there were people in this particular group that you were close to thatyou miss those relationships, right?
(45:46):
And all of us experienced that when we leave these particular high control groups.
And Daniela put words to that, that the idea of
the high exit cost on your way out.
Yeah, thinking about the exit cost.
gosh, I don't know.
The exit cost for me was...
(46:06):
There's some decisions that went into that that were a huge cost.
For instance, me pretty much collapsing my construction company and then moving across theentire country to get closer to my mentor right before I left was a huge cost, obviously.
Uprooted my family and did all that stuff.
(46:28):
Yeah, so now I'm in a different state and trying to figure out, well, now what do do?
So there's a huge cost.
And as far as relationships go from former colleagues that are in that organization still,a lot of them just kind of ghosted me too.
If you're not familiar, the whole suppressive person thing, it's very real, and it's noteven in Scientology, it's just in those type of self-help.
(46:54):
Atmospheres and organizations they really try to push it like if someone's not on yourfrequency They're not for you cut them out of your life all that stuff and very terrible
message to put to people I mean I ended up cutting out some really good people in my lifethat I care about
I always like to stress, and this is on the Guru Gacha checklist, right?
Like talking bad about people who have left or telling you not to talk to people.
(47:18):
Like no valid organization and no valid leader has a reason to tell you not to talk toanybody.
Like, why?
Right?
they're disgruntled.
Okay, why?
Right?
Like every, a valid organization,
can understand that experiences vary.
(47:40):
And so some people will have good experiences, right?
Yeah.
You know, by far and large, as an officer in the army, my soldiers liked me.
Well, you can find people that will talk shit about me, right?
Because it we're all humans and experiences vary.
And it's like, so not legit.
(48:02):
To just like in any way to talk
to talk about, right?
To have like a professional critique with something someone did, yes, absolutely, right?
But just just be like, because you're not part of our organization anymore, like we're notgonna talk to you, like that to me is so shady.
Yeah, yeah.
And those type of things were happening that you explained where the higher ups wereactually reaching out to some of these former colleagues of mine and kind of giving them
(48:31):
the third degree about following my content and liking my content and stuff like that.
And they're like, yeah, the reason you're doing that.
And I guess they were trying to suggest to them that they should disconnect from me orwhatever they're trying to say.
So they're very well aware of me.
They haven't really tried suing me or anything, but I don't really care.
(48:53):
I got a bigger purpose here.
They haven't been able to put fear in me yet.
They've been able to do it to a lot of big names with like a hundred million dollarlawsuit type things attached to it.
So that tells you the type of power that Scientology is attached to, when they can getsomeone to go into a corner on a big lawsuit like that.
(49:16):
So anyways.
That's a separate topic, but.
Ben, we have a few minutes left here and I want to, if you could speak to your youngerself, right?
If you could speak to yourself before you got caught up in this particular group, whatwould you say to that person?
Because I think by extension, right?
(49:36):
It's very helpful because as you mentioned, this self-help industry continues and a lot ofpeople get caught up in it because I think at our core, we all want community and
If we're being honest, right, we want to be better off as a person, however you measurethat.
(49:58):
And these particular groups prey on those vulnerabilities and on those very normal humandesires.
So if you could go back and maybe give yourself a warning as you were being kind ofaccorded to come into this group, what would you say?
I would keep it very basic.
(50:18):
I don't, like to keep when it comes to this topic and we're talking about advice onsomeone navigating this, keeping it basic, I feel like is very helpful.
so for me, the advice would be, Hey, I know you've heard this before.
This might sound cheesy, but like you have everything that you need inside of you.
need all the tools you've ever wanted.
They're all inside of you.
(50:39):
There's going to be people throughout your life.
They're going to try to suggest to you that you're missing something.
that you're short on something, that you're lacking, that you have potential that you'renot reaching.
And I just want to let you know that all that stuff is going to come to you in due time.
All the stuff, you don't need to chase money, ego, self-pride, let go of all that stuffand all the stuff you could have ever wanted is going to gravitate towards you naturally.
(51:05):
If you just focus on helping people, caring about people and forming genuinerelationships.
I would say a lot more than that, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, man.
no, that was so good.
And I just want to give everyone a reminder, like, it's okay to just be.
(51:25):
And when you're in a space of personal transformation, predators will show up.
And it actually cost me a lot of money in therapy to have somebody tell me, Daniella,you're addicted to self-help.
And like, it's okay to just be.
Right?
It's okay to want to be better, but like, you don't have to be in an abusive relationshipwith your body all the time.
(51:49):
You don't have to be in an abusive relationship with your mind all the time or with yourfinances, right?
Like, you can just be a person and not be obsessed with bettering yourself all the time.
And that's okay.
And I think giving ourselves that okay, right?
Like, we're all three of us are the type of people that are always going to be working onourselves.
(52:10):
Like we don't...
probably need as much help with that as we think, right?
So just like giving yourself the permission.
You know, I like to tell people like, it's okay for your new mission to be you.
Mmm, I like that.
Yeah, and that's well said.
it goes to the heart, of what you've been talking here is that a lot of times the thingsthat we're looking for we already have and we already possess.
(52:35):
But what these gurus do is they identify problems and then they offer you a solution.
And they may even say, as you articulated earlier, hey, you've got everything you need.
Now, let me give you my book here for $19.95.
Hahaha
So you've got everything you need in addition to my book, in addition to my leadership.
(52:58):
And so when you hear those conflicting messages, that's a huge, huge red flag.
So Ben, if folks want to find you, if they want to follow you, if they want to benefitfrom your story or what you're doing now, what's the best way to do that?
Follow my YouTube channel.
It's called Today's Misguided Mentors.
And then the second most active channel would be my Instagram.
(53:20):
It's BenjaminJohnMIC.
And yeah, those are, you can stay up to date on what I'm doing and what I'm up to on thosetwo pages.
And usually I'll kind of disperse that on everything I'm doing.
So you'll know what I'm doing one way or another.
But I forgot to tell you, Scott, to bring all that message back home.
(53:41):
I would say this to myself, like, if it feels bad, it's probably bad.
If it feels good, lean into that energy.
I would make it that stupid simple.
Yeah, well said.
And we will make sure that we have all of your information in the show notes.
So check that out.
A big shout out to our wonderful producer, Haley, who does a tremendous job on producingour program.
(54:05):
Ben, thank you so much.
I feel like we just scratched the surface, so to speak.
So hopefully in the future, we can have you back and continue the story.
And Daniela said it right.
We're all on a journey, right?
And we're all making progress at different speeds.
We're being, we're human beings and that's enough.
(54:25):
Absolutely.
And look, I finished what I was making, so you all get to see it.
I took a scarf.
This one I did my Ted Talk in very early on my journey.
And I added sleeves.
And now it's what we call a love again.
I'm
and Daniela, I saw that you started a new TikTok that is devoted only to knitting andthings of that nature.
(54:47):
Did I see that?
Did I see that wrong?
Okay.
to have one that was only gonna be knitting to see if they would not kick me off, but thenat one point I was suspended and so cults got onto the knitting channel and now it will
never be undone.
They're one of the same now.
There is a channel called Knitting Cult Ladies Closet and that one is where I post more ofmy stuff.
(55:12):
But you see the problem is the least interesting thing about my videos is the knitting.
So anytime I do a video that's just knitting content, it gets suppressed by the cultvideos or the politic videos.
It's a hard life.
Absolutely, yeah.
(55:33):
YouTube, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see a lot of all of the videos.
So, you know, we use the tools that we have.
Thank you so much, Ben.
Keep us posted on the book too, because I'm building pretty good channels fornon-deceptive book sales.
So, you know, we'll stay connected.
(55:53):
I love it.
I appreciate you guys.
Uh, Daniela and Scott, it was pleasure meeting you guys and having a good conversation andyeah, we'll to do this again.
Thank you so much, Ben.
And something that Daniela said, I think is going to be my new sign off on cults and theculting of America.
We're all humans and experiences vary.
So keep that in mind.
(56:14):
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Be sure and like the channel, subscribe, share with your friends, leave us a review thathelps the algorithm, helps get the information out about this podcast.
We appreciate.
all of you so much.
Until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for Daniela Mestenek Young.
We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd.
I am here with Daniela Mestenec Young, otherwise known as the Knitting Cult Lady.
And Daniela, no problem sending any unwarranted text about war plans or anything likethat.
(00:48):
I can't imagine you doing something like
like two trips to war, working in intelligence, never once accidentally added a reporterto my illegal chat group.
And I think the funny part is here.
the easiest way to explain what happened here is they butt dialed someone while cheatingon their wife, but they're acting like the butt dial is the problem.
(01:14):
I like it.
That's a great analogy and yeah, it rings true.
So lots of issues around the world, lots of issues in DC right now, but thank you forexplaining how that should have been handled, right?
Yeah, mean, it's, just, can't even, you know, like, I just feel like this is, this is whatwe meant.
(01:37):
Like, when I heard this news, I just started laughing.
Like, this is what we meant when we said when you put completely unqualified people intothese positions.
Like, I wasn't saying, like, Hegseth was bad because he is that garbage vet bro that wehave all served with, that we all hate to the core of our beings, because, like, that
would have been political.
(01:58):
I was saying that like when you put an unqualified person in to run the Department ofDefense, this is sort of what happens.
But it's just, I don't know, it's been this weird version for me of like, everyone's gonnasee that we're in a cult now, right?
Like every veteran understands this.
(02:19):
Like every single veteran has spent their entire career.
getting talked to about how their life would be over if they messed up secrets.
And now we're just like, we get to watch this on the largest scale and just get to seelike, are these men, these gurus at the top, this like culture that's being run right now
on like masculinity and ketamine, you know, like, how's it gonna go?
(02:47):
Which I just leads us well to our guest.
I'm excited about the conversation that we're gonna have.
about leadership today.
Yeah, joining us is Ben John.
Ben, welcome to our culty podcast here where we talk about how even good motives sometimesend up with unintended consequences.
(03:15):
And I think perhaps as you tell your story tonight, we can see that happening with lots offolks who get caught up in this sort of self-help
self-help movement.
So why don't you introduce yourself and we'll talk about it.
Yeah.
Well, how you doing, Scott?
How you doing, Daniela?
My name is Benjamin John.
(03:38):
yeah, so lately I've been, I love this topic because it's my passion lately and it's beena huge part of my life.
You know, what I'm focusing on these days is helping people identify what I call misguidedmentors and helping them navigate the predatory self-help space.
(03:58):
You know, and I see the huge problem in this after I
went through it myself for several years and then came out and then like looking back andreflecting on my own experience.
like, wow, I see a huge problem with this, especially this being such an unregulatedindustry.
You know, if nobody's going to do anything about it, I took it upon myself to do thingslike this podcasting and talking on my own channel.
(04:21):
know, publicly speaking, writing books about this, like this is something that if I can'tdo anything about it, nobody's doing anything about it.
The least I could do is get in front of it and at least put information out there to bringawareness and encourage discernment, you know.
I was under the impression that maybe the self-help industry, the cottage industry thathas grown up around a lot of this was sort of seeing a down scale in its popularity.
(04:50):
But it seems now it's coming back and it seems to be what I've observed.
You can correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure there's all kinds of self-help gurus out there.
But what I've observed is that I'm seeing a big movement among young men who areidentifying other men, right, to quote unquote mentor them in this idea of masculinity.
(05:19):
But we see a lot of tropes, a lot of problems developing around this kind of idea.
Am I wrong about my impression that we're seeing kind of a boom now with
with men and young men?
Well, no, you're not wrong, but the entire coaching and mentorship industry blew up as awhole.
(05:41):
But you're right when we're talking about the whole alpha male posturing masculinity, youknow, that type of movement that's going on lately, that seems to be attracting to some of
these young men and it's starting to blow up and, know, I don't, it's,
It's something I guess I slightly gravitated towards myself, but I don't know.
(06:06):
I didn't get deep into that as much as some of these people are, but it's kind of likeI've talked about it this way.
It's almost like Stockholm syndrome in a way.
It's weird.
These guys are all jacked up on steroids will kind of shame you, shame your bank account,shame who you are, your physique.
You got a little extra pounds on you.
And then turn around and tell you that they care about you.
(06:28):
They're telling you this because they care about you.
And then they'll take it a step further and say, nobody in your life is telling you thisbecause they don't care about you.
So now they've created this whole atmosphere where they're the only one that cares aboutthem in their life.
And they just put this huge amount of status just by doing that, that one thing andframing it that way.
(06:48):
but yeah, you're right.
There's a target on a lot of young men, unfortunately.
And, that's just one segment and like one sector of the, unethical self-help space.
And you know, this is such a cult leader tactic, by the way, a couple things that you saidthere.
One, which is weaponizing the discontent, right?
Which is just, you know, I say cults are great at that.
(07:11):
they feel like I have paid $13,000 to a cult guru who was absolutely scamming me, right?
Just like upfront when I should have known better, right?
And it's just, it's such a cult leader tactic to
both shame you.
I remember this woman was like, so you don't, you're not a strong woman.
(07:33):
You don't actually have the money to put into this without asking a man for help and forpermission.
And she just zeroed in on the exact thing that was gonna get me to be like, no, I can dothis, right?
Both like, I need you, but also you're belittling me at the same time.
(07:55):
Yeah, well that's calculated mental manipulation that was going on there, sounds like.
Sounds like she knew what she was doing.
Yup.
Ben, tell us a little bit about your story and your background and how you started seeingsome of the problems in these particular groups.
Yeah, how can I fast track this story?
(08:16):
I guess let me, let me, I gotta respectfully ask, are you guys okay with me just cause Ihave no filter with like calling people out by name and like I'm pretty raw, but I'd have
respect for people that don't want that on their, their channel.
So I guess my question is, do you guys want me to put a filter on talking about specificpeople and things and sharing my experience as it is, or make sure it's not edited.
(08:42):
I think maybe if you could try to avoid names, but if it just has to be said, it has to besaid.
We're doing things.
okay.
I'll do my best.
And then going back to what you were saying earlier, Scott, this will kind of segue intoanswering that question.
But the reason I know that the coaching industry blew up in the pandemic was becausethat's when I got involved in it.
(09:07):
And at that time, it was like 2020 pandemic, it was kind of already intact at that pointfor some time.
and I have a construction company.
And at that time it was a couple of years old, doing good.
And next thing you know, I got introduced to an individual by book he wrote.
(09:28):
It's this huge self-proclaimed billionaire guy that everybody knows.
He's all over the place.
And I started listening to this audio book and like, you know, it starts getting in myhead, just to be honest.
Like he really gets in my head with some of these sayings about like,
And some of them are good things.
Some of them are good and can be used for good, but I found out the deeper I went thatthey were being used for bad and for the agenda to serve them and had nothing to do with
(09:55):
helping me.
But thinking back on it now, they're saying just like, know, commit first, figure out therest later, invest in yourself, those who pay attention, network is your net worth, so on
and so forth.
We've all heard these sayings regurgitated in every single
public speaking self-help room, right?
(10:16):
But I had not heard those before.
And so I was kind of a motivational entrepreneur already.
And so it was kind of feeding me.
And then I would hear him say things like, you I'm now living my full potential.
I'm, you know, disappointing my family because I'm not aiming for higher goals.
And like, you know, this whole shaming through a book, this is all happening.
(10:38):
And then, you know, as the next year went by, I went to in-person events.
I'm spending 18,000 here, 25,000 here, 40,000 here, 10 there, five there, working up to acouple hundred thousand dollars in buying stuff from this guy and becoming a business
(10:59):
coach, a certified coach for him and everything.
So over the span of a few years of me doing that, had a really crazy spiritual momentwhere I woke up.
realized I was in a cult, left, voluntarily left our organization, said I don't want to bea part of it anymore.
And then I started learning more about cults.
I really didn't know much about cults and started learning more about cults, morespecifically finding out this guy is actually one of the biggest contributors of
(11:23):
Scientology and is a Scientologist.
So I started learning about Scientology.
So my mind was blown to find out that my mentor for the last few years,
is a cult, part of a huge cult, and I was part of a spinoff cult.
So that's kind of how I got into it.
I don't know if that answered your question or not, Scott.
Yeah, and it's interesting.
(11:46):
know, Daniela has pointed out correctly that one of the tactics of a lot of these groupsis what we call a thought stopping cliche.
And usually this is in response to a question.
If somebody observes something that's going on, they're like, you know, this looks alittle suspect here.
(12:07):
You know, the leader or the organization spits out
this diatribe that sounds nice, right, on the surface, but if you go right below thesurface, they're not saying anything at all.
And I think what you described, a lot of these positive affirmations, they work in thesame way that thought-stopping cliches work, because you're sort of mesmerized at the
(12:31):
moment, right?
It resonates with you on some level, and you're like, yes, this person has the answer toall of my problems.
But the fact of the matter remains, if you start thinking about it under scrutiny, thesesayings fall apart rather quickly.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, I want to take this time to just tell the audience about Elgats, largegroup awareness trainings.
(12:58):
And it honestly probably would have been fine to say the name of who you were talkingabout, but I kind of love that you don't know.
Like in my head, it's anyone who ends in Oni Robbins, right?
But like, there are so many of them.
And this has actually been high drama in the cult world, high drama.
(13:18):
Okay, so for decades, cult scholars have been saying, hey, these trainings, right, largegroup awareness trainings, EST landmark, anything that ends in Oni Robbins, right, where
they are bringing you in and like kind of like weaponizing self-help.
And they've been saying like, this is shysty, right?
(13:42):
Like these are cult tactics.
And a lot of times I think it's like,
I don't care what you're saying, like this is a cult tactic.
It can be weaponized, it can be used for bad, even if we haven't figured it out yet.
So in 1995, Margaret Singer, who's one of the cult godmothers, right, cult studygodmothers, she writes a book and she writes about Elgats and how concerning they are.
(14:07):
And she got sanctioned by the American Psychological Association.
for basically talking about this being concerning when you don't have the stuff to back itup.
And like 100 % we know that like the APA was wrong, right?
Like we know now this, like exactly what you're saying, Ben, but the problem is here theystill are, right?
(14:32):
In 2020, right?
So in 1995, it's being written about as like, these are harming people.
These are using tactics, right?
she just writes about hyperventilation.
And you just read about how these people use stuff like hyperventilation, getting you upand down, having you chant, things like bathroom control, right?
(14:54):
You'll never be the same again.
Like you'll see it all right there.
But it was so like, you know, really what I wanna get to here is something that you said.
You were like, it helped me.
It spoke to me, right?
And because these...
These trainings, they know what they're doing and they know how to be very heuristicallyeffective.
(15:17):
They know how to make you feel like something happened, like you went through somethingreally profound.
And you will, as you said, like commit your life, your money, your followership, all ofthis stuff.
And the last thing I just wanna point out, which I know you know, but I'm sure theytrashed you as soon as you woke up and said you didn't wanna be a part, right?
(15:41):
They actually blocked me more than anything.
And I was, it was crazy because I, you know, and I documented all that stuff and I keep itall up on my page so people could see it.
But yeah, I was very professional, very polite and just said, Hey, you know, I'd like tolove, love to have a conversation with, you know, my mentor, my former mentor now, and
(16:02):
just kind of just pick his brain on why he teaches people to do things this way, why hethinks it's okay to treat people this way.
Just some simple questions like that.
I was saying, I think that's the least you owe me.
I've been pretty loyal.
spent lots of money, almost a quarter million dollars with you guys.
But yeah, when you were saying, Daniela, this whole thinking about the whole transcendingof this, I thought after, because I realized it's been about a year and a half now.
(16:29):
So I've had a lot of time to kind of learn about cults and learn about this stuff now.
And I'm now...
more fascinated because now that I'm trying to help people, want to know how this is, youknow, I want to, in order to help somebody, got to explain how it's happening, you But
thinking about my own experience just from a book, from a book, being able to incept mymind with thoughts and kind of be able to prey on my vulnerability got me to get closer to
(17:02):
the organization.
And then when I got,
in the organization and like at these events, there's just a lot of attractive energy.
The whole, I mean, there's just a lot of rah rah rah going on.
Everybody's, you know, trying to be all positive and, it's just very attractive.
Let's put it that way.
It's hard to say no in rooms like that to people.
And that's when they start selling stuff to you, start throwing around free alcohol too.
(17:26):
Like there's just so much that goes on.
later people come by with like, should have said no.
You'll appreciate that I'm ending my book with talking about how a Taylor Swift Ears tourconcert can be the perfect, could be like in theory, the perfect call induction ceremony.
Because like 100 % everything you said, right?
(17:47):
It's like that energy is so hard to explain.
if you haven't experienced, I think.
But it's just so attractive to people that don't know, I think, how destructive it can be.
And even so, it's a fun ride.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They create this whole facade that, you know, and this is just one, like I said, there'sso many layers to this that I talk about and I'm sure you guys do too as well, but the
(18:15):
facade of this group and this community that you're now part of being elite and highperformance individuals, above average, you know, like, you know, if you're not paying,
paying attention to yourself, you're not really like grounded.
You're not in touch with your intuition and your conscious to do the right thing.
you'll get lost in that big time.
(18:37):
You're gonna have a hard time.
If you have a hard time saying no, which a lot of people unfortunately do, you're gonnareally struggle in these environments, turning down offers and things that seem really,
really attractive when it's presented to you in the right way.
Ben, you talked about waking up one day and sort of having this epiphany, but I imaginethere were red flags along the way that now looking back upon reflection, you're able to
(19:02):
see them.
So can you talk a little bit about maybe the epiphany that you had, what that looked likeand how that came about?
And then maybe now where you're at looking back, if you would have been desirable to do soor in a position to do so,
What were some of the red flags that you now see that you didn't see then?
(19:24):
Yeah.
So the moment it's really more, if I start talking about that too much, we're going tostart going down a deep spiritual conversation.
and I gotta be careful when I do that.
Cause I don't want people thinking that I went from one cult to a religious cult.
I'm not religious.
you know, I do believe in higher powers and things like that, but I'm not a religiousperson and I've never read the Bible nor that.
(19:49):
So I guess I better just start by saying that.
but.
Some things happen to me, let's just put it this way, things are happening to me that havenever happened to me in my entire 40 years of living.
That's the best way I can explain it.
Just like crazy things in my life that were kind of unexplainable.
was like, you just couldn't explain it.
(20:10):
But thank God my daughter was here with me, friends, my girlfriend actually kind ofwitnessed some of this stuff with me.
Otherwise no one would ever believe it.
But I just had some...
I don't know, people call them downloads sometimes, people call them messages, whatever.
I had like moments like that, if you will, to pay attention to certain things I had beenignoring for years.
And those red flags that you're talking about, it literally was like, I've explained it inthis way, where it's like my life flashing before my eyes, it was all the red flags I
(20:39):
ignored all at once, right in front of me, it's like I could like vividly remember allthese moments I had ignored and fell off to me and...
I was wondering if anybody else thought the same thing I did or, you but it was, that'show it happened to me.
It was, it was literally so fast.
All this stuff happened in probably a week when I woke up to making that decision offinally leaving.
(21:01):
But,
Before we get to the red flags, and I want you to unpack that a little bit for us, butlet's back up just a moment and talk about your disposition.
What attracted you to the group?
Where were you at personally?
What was happening?
Because in our conversations, obviously a lot of these groups, whether they're religiousor self-help motivational type groups, they tend to identify and then prey on people who
(21:28):
sometimes find themselves in a vulnerable
position.
As Daniel has pointed out, that's not always the case, but a lot of times these kinds ofgroups, especially if you think about the mission of a self-help, right?
It's in the definition.
You're reaching out to people who need help.
So what did your life look like and what was it about this group in particular thatattracted you to it?
(21:56):
Um, so another thing that got me was what I realized, what I call now, I don't know ifit's a thing, but I call it this, I call it fake vulnerability.
So a lot of these, uh, self-serving entrepreneurs are very good at kind of making it seemas though they're dropping their guard and kind of getting real vulnerable with you so
that you're going to now open up and you're now going to start, um, trusting them.
(22:20):
think.
And at least that's what it feels like to me after, like I said, after analyzing all thisstuff and what I went through.
in case you want the star student, gold star, I call this hacking vulnerability.
Yeah, after 22 years of studying this.
Yeah, I'm like, yes, and this is one of the things that people have asked me afterwards.
(22:42):
They say, but I don't understand.
They created such vulnerability and I really needed that, that spoke to me, right?
It's one of the reasons I say that you can't have good cults, right?
Because you can't like hack human nature for good, I think.
(23:03):
And, you know, one of the ways I've learned this was through being an author and you maybehave this feeling by doing, you know, doing podcasts and sharing your stuff.
But like when I have to go into a book club, right?
That is like...
Chosen vulnerability.
Like I'm going in, everyone's read my life story, which is very intense.
And I'm like laying myself open for the group.
(23:26):
Right?
And I believe that almost every call asks you to do this all of the time.
Right?
But like the next day, I feel like I feel like I'm under, that night, I feel like I'm highon people.
It's a very enjoyable experience for me.
And then the next day I feel like I'm under concrete.
(23:46):
And I know that now because I take the time to experience all of those feelings.
And it's not like necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, right?
Like I've been talking about this today too.
It's just a tool.
Vulnerability is a tool of connection, right?
But like when you're using it, when you're doing it, like you said, like these guru typesare like, you don't know how to explain it, but they're faking it, right?
(24:11):
And they're really like,
And I feel the same way a lot of times.
I'm like, this is how like we know when people are being vulnerable and like trulyvulnerable and we can connect to them.
And then we know, I think, when there's kind of this veneer, but it's almost like they'redoing vulnerability just a little bit better and a little bit shinier than everyone.
(24:33):
And don't you want to be like that?
And one of the things I always say is like, then cults absolutely do not care how muchthat vulnerability harms you.
Right?
So like I do the book club and then I give myself time off afterwards.
But like in a cult, I would just be doing that again the next morning.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so, and so, yeah.
So I'm glad that it's funny because I'm not a professional.
(24:55):
I have not been studying this stuff for years.
And this is just from me just kind of transcribing my own experience and kind of, puttingsome type of explanation to what I experienced and how everything happened.
And so I think I'm doing a pretty good job because that's what it felt like it happened.
So to answer your question, Scott,
(25:16):
That's one of the things that attracted me was that fake vulnerability, make, you know,he's this guy's talking about how his dad passed away when he was 10.
my dad passed away and I didn't pass away.
He, pre practically passed away, left the family when I was three and I don't know my dad.
So I kind of felt not the same story, but still felt like growing up without a dadconnection there.
(25:36):
you know, just the whole, blue collar worker growing up from like, so it, like, Danielawas saying it's used for.
connection and then when someone has ill intentions of using that connection for servingtheir own agenda, that's where it kind of gets really iffy.
But that attracted me and I can't remember where you wanted me to segue into theattraction, but there's a lot of things that attracted me, but that was one of it.
(26:02):
Being part of fitting in with that community also, we talked about that.
That was definitely part of it.
A lot of people don't admit that, but to be honest, that was an attraction.
Well, and that's a completely normal human reaction, right?
We all want to fit in.
We all want to feel like we belong to a group, to a community.
(26:23):
And that's what these groups do.
That's what these cult leaders do is that they prey on a real human need.
And then a lot of times, as I was listening to you and Daniela talk, what these folks do,right, is that they tell you
what your problem is.
And then because most of us have never, you know, been self-reflective enough to look intothe depths of ourselves and think about what our problems.
(26:53):
Somebody comes along and they're charismatic and they appear to have everything together.
And then they're able to look at you and articulate your feelings better than you can inthe moment.
And then to give you an opportunity, right?
To become a part
of a group where everyone has had this experience, that is a powerful appeal to everyone.
(27:20):
Yeah.
absolutely.
And that's honest, you know, and like you said, it's a natural, biological thing, right?
Yeah, well, and you know, it's so interesting.
I want to point out this feature of charisma and like double down on this thing of like,it's a tool.
It's a tool and a skill that not everybody has, but that some people have to be able tolook at you and figure out what's bothering you and to be able to put it into words in
(27:45):
ways you've never heard it before.
And by the way, the reason they can usually do that is because they've been doing this fora long time.
Right.
But I, I do this, right?
Like,
I have the Swifty-ian ability of saying something in a way that nobody's ever said itbefore, and then when you hear it, you're like, yeah.
And then I choose every day to not use that to manipulate people.
(28:07):
So it's very like, like today I said that like cult hate gossip, right?
Which turned into an argument of whether gossip was good or bad.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Tools are gray, except maybe orange sometimes in the case of president.
Like tools are gray and how you use them is what matters.
(28:29):
And this I think is what is fundamentally so hard about gurus.
And I'm gonna say this several times in the next 30 minutes.
One of my favorite cult like inoculation vaccines is from Dr.
Janja Lalich.
And she just says, there are no gurus.
Like you do what you need to do for spirituality, for your life, but like there are nogurus.
(28:52):
End point.
Period in between every word.
Nuts.
I agree.
It's all it's all it is really all within us.
And again, using another example of like how some a good saying can be used for bad.
Some of these people that say stuff like that as a leader don't actually mean that they'lltell you things like that.
Like you have everything you need inside you.
But then on the other flip side, kind of suggest you to seek them for the answers and seekthem for the success.
(29:19):
And that that answers your question, Scott.
One of the red flags I've realized now after going through that is that is a huge red flagthat I teach to people is like if you have a mentor or a coach or you're looking for that,
one of the ways you can tell if they're actually an ethical person is if they'reencouraging you to think for yourself.
If they're not doing that and they're encouraging you to seek them for success, for ablueprint, for a playbook, that's a red flag.
(29:47):
yeah.
And here's a red flag that I don't think people think about sometimes.
It's a red flag when they're pointing out red flags and then they don't point out the redflags about themselves.
That's my best way to say it, right?
So I'm always saying beware of people who know a lot about the bad guys, right?
(30:10):
Like that's how they learn to do it.
They study other bad guys, right?
And then people think it's a great gotcha question, right?
They think as though I don't do this for a living, they're the first person that has eversaid this.
And they just look at me and they go, so we should be afraid of you?
And I look them back and I'm like, with all due respect, yes.
Yes, you should be afraid of me.
(30:31):
And if I invite you to my compound, maybe don't come.
Like the energy is gonna be great, right?
But like.
And if I said, by the way, no, and I started explaining why like my version of, no, I doknow a lot about the bad guys, which means I would know how to do it.
(30:52):
And I choose not to, you know, and I kind of believe in the journey of every cult leaderand like, what did you call them?
Malevolent mentors, malicious mentors, misguided mentors, there you go.
Malevolent, malicious, misguided, my.
I like malevolent too though.
(31:13):
in every journey is like a charismatic person, right?
Which everyone agrees means like there are things about you that you're just better atsome things than other humans and we don't know how to explain why.
And at some point they're like, how am I gonna use this, right?
Like we can all think of a little Elon Musk marching along being like, hmm, I'm better atsome things than other people.
(31:37):
And then at some point, I call it sampling the Kool-Aid.
They drink just enough to actually start believing that they're the one that's gonna bedifferent.
They're the one that's gonna do it better.
They're the one that's gonna, and then at some point they just go full super villain.
And I don't think they even think, for most of us, we need to think that we're the goodguy and we need to set up the world like that.
(32:04):
But I think at some point, charismatic leaders
have become deified in their own minds and they're just like, I can do what I want.
And now I wanna test my power.
The most dangerous villain, is the one who thinks that they are the hero.
And that presents all kinds of issues and problems.
(32:25):
So Ben, tell us a little bit about what you're doing these days and how you're endeavoringto take what you have learned and to help others get through that.
What does that look like for you now going forward?
well, not to, you know, not to come off as a, as a hero or anything, but, I'm just tryingto help as much as I can.
(32:46):
Obviously, I I've realized in reality, Colts aren't going away.
misguided mentors aren't going away.
The coaching industry space is just going to keep scaling.
And so the only thing I can do is, is bring awareness.
you know,
get loud about this stuff, talk about my on my own pages, jump on podcasts like this.
(33:09):
I think that me talking has a lot of weight behind it because I'm not just a spectator.
went through, you even though I didn't go through a traditional cult like Scientology,mean, the cult I went through technically, it feels just like a spin-off Scientology cult.
And so I don't help anybody, let's put it that way.
(33:32):
If that means I just keep doing what I'm doing publicly speaking, finishing this thirdbook that I'm working on, also going to be called Today's Misguided Mentors.
I am a business consultant as well, but I stopped when I left grants.
And because a lot of the videos that I put in my coaching program, I'm not in alignmentwith anymore.
(33:57):
And also I'm out here calling out
coaches and mentors and stuff like that.
So there's like a bit of a, I don't know, uncertainty about that, but I've been prettyvulnerable with people and transparent asking people's advice and suggestions on, know,
should I ever sell a course again?
Are all courses bad?
Stuff like that.
(34:20):
is
to the right place.
Well, that would that be weird teaching putting out courses to help people prepare forcourses or putting out courses to help people prepare for going into a networking space or
a self help space?
I don't know.
So these are.
someone that does this in the public sphere.
(34:42):
So talk a little bit about the tension maybe that you feel in this situation.
So first of all, I will give you my opinion about you for whatever is worth knowing youfor 40 minutes, right?
Like you're on your journey.
You're on your journey.
And as long as you make sure, you know, people always ask me, so how do you not build acult?
(35:03):
Right?
And I'm like, okay, this is really important and really complicated.
All right.
You don't coerce and manipulate people and exploit their labor.
That's it.
Yep.
so, so my personal experience with this, right, because as soon as you said what you did,I was like, I want to ask you how many times you've been called a cult leader, right?
(35:24):
Because you will, if it hasn't happened yet, it will, you'll be called the malevolentmentor, right?
Like you'll get all of this stuff directed at you.
And in part, I believe that's because cult members or undeconstructed ex-cult members,like they haven't experienced non-deceptive sales.
And so they don't understand, right?
(35:46):
So I get accused of being a cult leader or a psychological operation yesterday all thetime, right?
And it's like, no, I'm here, I'm using influence tactics and I'm selling, but I'm sellinga product, my book, right?
Which I went out and wrote the one I needed for my journey.
And I think if you're on a similar journey, this product will help you.
(36:10):
And if you get me money, you will get this product.
and being popular, so for you, right, selling horses, like being popular and giving peoplea product that is not deceptively sold or hooked or pimped or made to be something it's
not, right, like is not deceptive.
(36:31):
But, yes, and what I was gonna say to you is I think the superpower,
And I really think Uncultured did this in the realm of cult books was showing that like ascult babies, like we have something else to teach you other than surviving trauma, which
is group behavior, right?
I see cults everywhere, right?
(36:53):
And I feel like once you have been through a process of coercive control, right?
You see it now.
You see it now.
It's just like, I've spent 24 hours trying to explain to people why I know.
that that text thread wasn't an accident, right?
And it's because I know the internal language and I know that nobody ever wanted to bethat embarrassed on purpose, right?
(37:18):
Like I am read into the secrets, right?
So now you know the patterns of manipulation, okay?
So what I did when I realized that I would have to be on the internet being a personalityif I wanted...
to get my ideas out and if I wanted to sell my book.
(37:38):
And I was like, no, I don't like it, it's culty.
So I went and I created the Guru Gotcha checklist, which of course folks, we will linkhere.
You can sign up on my website.
Here's what's gonna happen.
You're gonna give me your email.
You're gonna get my lists of culty things, these tools that I have created.
(37:59):
I will also then probably use your email to let you know about Culting of America or otherfuture products that I create, like a writing course, which I think might help you.
We're not being deceptive here.
This is our lead funnel.
That's what it's for, the Guru Gacha checklist.
It's a 20 part list.
And I made it to keep myself in check.
(38:21):
Mmm, nice.
me, right, like, you worried about being a cult leader?
No, because I'm not gonna sample my Kool-Aid.
I make sure the 25 to 50 % of everything on my channel is from other people.
I'm not the guru, right?
And I'm not gonna just decide to start manipulating and coercing people.
So I think like, if this is how you're approaching it, right, like, you have...
(38:45):
stuff to teach because people haven't experienced that.
And as you said, these con men are not going anywhere, they're going to keep targetingpeople and they only get better at it.
And but you have a tool.
And surgeons are really good at cutting people up, but they're also really good at cuttingpeople up.
So it's really like, how much do you believe in not being a guru?
(39:08):
And now take that and do good things with your knowledge.
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.
And I really think that I needed to hear that from your perspective, because it soundslike you literally went through a lot of the thought processes that I went through over
the last several months is in the hesitancy of being labeled a whatever a wannabe.
(39:29):
I, answer your question, Scott, I get all kinds of accusations of me being a coaching scamor two.
And I haven't even sold any coaching for a year and a half since I left.
Even me never have sold anything in the last year and a half.
Even me jumping on my page and saying, I'm giving out refunds.
If I ever manipulated you into a sale, I, and you bought something from me that I, I feltlike I forced you to reach out to me.
(39:52):
I'm giving you your money back.
And, I did all kinds of stuff like that, um, just to try to really let people know thatlike, this is a shift and a commitment I'm making.
I'm not that person anymore, but you said something I don't want to forget to bring up.
Daniela.
Um, you said a lot of ex cult members don't understand, um, don't understand.
deceptive cells selling, think something like that.
(40:16):
Non deceptive sales.
Yeah.
So I have a unique introduction into the Colts because like I said, if you remember, I hadalready had a company for a couple of years doing successful and I did not, I went into it
literally just trying to do a good job, give them a good experience, trying to just.
(40:37):
brand awareness in the local community.
I was just literally trying to just do like grassroots, honest work.
I wasn't chasing money.
It was only when I got hooked up with my mentor and then started going down that path thatI slowly started adopting his thought process and his sales tactics, which are deception,
(41:00):
manipulation, shaming, interrogating, harassing, bullying, all that stuff into gettingsales.
And I really didn't even realize that I was kind of doing that, but I was training underhim.
And so I thought, hey, he's this multi-billionaire, proclaimed multi-billionaire.
If I want to achieve that kind of level, I guess maybe you know something, I should justdo it.
(41:23):
So over the years, I started kind of indoctrinating his sales process.
So yes, I still made sales.
Yes, I still did good in my company.
The problem was it didn't feel good.
These sales hours I was making felt really slimy and bad and unethical because I was nowusing, you know, like NLP tactics to kind of really manipulate this situation.
(41:44):
And so now when I left that organization, I had to go back to what myself being myself andlike, you know, deconstructing all that unethical ways I just was taught now for several
years.
So it's been a roller coaster, but I do know what ethical sales looks like, thankfully.
Yeah, and if you don't know or listeners don't know, this is called a pseudo personality,by the way.
(42:06):
And like, even if nothing else you said had been culty, the fact that you feel like youhave to go back to a different person than you were, like, that is a true cult experience,
right?
And you have to take off the cult persona.
And sometimes people think you're going back to who you were, but of course you're notbecause you have now been changed forever by your encounter with a cult.
(42:30):
and you have to figure out now who you are.
And so when I said to you, right, like you're on your journey, like you are, you saidyou've been at it for a year and a half, you know?
So the decade of deconstruction, I have named so for a reason, but like when people comeout of cults or high control groups and say they wanna help other people, like I think
(42:56):
that's beautiful.
And I think that like being authentic, you something that you said really stuck with me.
It's like you don't actually have to study all of this if you just really authenticallytell your story.
Everyone else who's been under coercive control is gonna relate to it.
(43:19):
Like that's the concept that I wrote uncultured with.
Like I was literally told, Danielle, there's no market for your stories because peoplecan't relate to growing up in a sex cult or being a woman at war.
But like everyone can relate to being scared and wishing they were somewhere else and, youknow, having group pressures, pressing down on them.
And like, if it works, if it's valid, it stands up to scrutiny, right?
(43:42):
So if you are like validly telling a story of how you were manipulated.
You know, think one of the things is we all think other people aren't going to get it andwe're going to look so stupid.
And like, in reality, that's what gives you the validity.
And that's what gives you the vulnerability is like, because I can tell from talking toyou that you've experienced coercive control and now you're trying to unbraid it and help
(44:08):
other people not experience it.
Like, that's not deceptive.
Whatever, whatever phase you're at in your journey, you know, you're just at that phase.
Yeah, I love that.
I'm looking forward to all the phases and I can see this just getting better and better.
There's a lot of, there's a lot of plans for, for this.
And, yeah, it's it for the long, when I first left and transitioned, there was a lot ofpeople thought I was crazy.
(44:35):
Thought it was a phase.
Like a lot of people called me like, are you okay, man?
Like, you know, I used to, you know, see you doing this and this and this, and thenovernight you're like totally over here now.
I was like, I've never been better in my life, man.
But I had a lot of phone calls like that.
Yeah, mean getting getting free is great and also really hard
(44:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Because in addition to what you gave up while you were in the group, we've talked aboutthis on our program, there are exit costs to leaving a cult that people don't consider.
But on the other side of that, not only are you deconstructing and going through thisprocess of rediscovering who you are, your authentic self, but you're also having to
(45:26):
endure as well-meaning as they might have been being blocked or being called and saying,you sure you're okay?
Everything okay?
And I imagine that there were people in this particular group that you were close to thatyou miss those relationships, right?
(45:46):
And all of us experienced that when we leave these particular high control groups.
And Daniela put words to that, that the idea of
the high exit cost on your way out.
Yeah, thinking about the exit cost.
gosh, I don't know.
The exit cost for me was...
(46:06):
There's some decisions that went into that that were a huge cost.
For instance, me pretty much collapsing my construction company and then moving across theentire country to get closer to my mentor right before I left was a huge cost, obviously.
Uprooted my family and did all that stuff.
(46:28):
Yeah, so now I'm in a different state and trying to figure out, well, now what do do?
So there's a huge cost.
And as far as relationships go from former colleagues that are in that organization still,a lot of them just kind of ghosted me too.
If you're not familiar, the whole suppressive person thing, it's very real, and it's noteven in Scientology, it's just in those type of self-help.
(46:54):
Atmospheres and organizations they really try to push it like if someone's not on yourfrequency They're not for you cut them out of your life all that stuff and very terrible
message to put to people I mean I ended up cutting out some really good people in my lifethat I care about
I always like to stress, and this is on the Guru Gacha checklist, right?
Like talking bad about people who have left or telling you not to talk to people.
(47:18):
Like no valid organization and no valid leader has a reason to tell you not to talk toanybody.
Like, why?
Right?
they're disgruntled.
Okay, why?
Right?
Like every, a valid organization,
can understand that experiences vary.
(47:40):
And so some people will have good experiences, right?
Yeah.
You know, by far and large, as an officer in the army, my soldiers liked me.
Well, you can find people that will talk shit about me, right?
Because it we're all humans and experiences vary.
And it's like, so not legit.
(48:02):
To just like in any way to talk
to talk about, right?
To have like a professional critique with something someone did, yes, absolutely, right?
But just just be like, because you're not part of our organization anymore, like we're notgonna talk to you, like that to me is so shady.
Yeah, yeah.
And those type of things were happening that you explained where the higher ups wereactually reaching out to some of these former colleagues of mine and kind of giving them
(48:31):
the third degree about following my content and liking my content and stuff like that.
And they're like, yeah, the reason you're doing that.
And I guess they were trying to suggest to them that they should disconnect from me orwhatever they're trying to say.
So they're very well aware of me.
They haven't really tried suing me or anything, but I don't really care.
(48:53):
I got a bigger purpose here.
They haven't been able to put fear in me yet.
They've been able to do it to a lot of big names with like a hundred million dollarlawsuit type things attached to it.
So that tells you the type of power that Scientology is attached to, when they can getsomeone to go into a corner on a big lawsuit like that.
(49:16):
So anyways.
That's a separate topic, but.
Ben, we have a few minutes left here and I want to, if you could speak to your youngerself, right?
If you could speak to yourself before you got caught up in this particular group, whatwould you say to that person?
Because I think by extension, right?
(49:36):
It's very helpful because as you mentioned, this self-help industry continues and a lot ofpeople get caught up in it because I think at our core, we all want community and
If we're being honest, right, we want to be better off as a person, however you measurethat.
(49:58):
And these particular groups prey on those vulnerabilities and on those very normal humandesires.
So if you could go back and maybe give yourself a warning as you were being kind ofaccorded to come into this group, what would you say?
I would keep it very basic.
(50:18):
I don't, like to keep when it comes to this topic and we're talking about advice onsomeone navigating this, keeping it basic, I feel like is very helpful.
so for me, the advice would be, Hey, I know you've heard this before.
This might sound cheesy, but like you have everything that you need inside of you.
need all the tools you've ever wanted.
They're all inside of you.
(50:39):
There's going to be people throughout your life.
They're going to try to suggest to you that you're missing something.
that you're short on something, that you're lacking, that you have potential that you'renot reaching.
And I just want to let you know that all that stuff is going to come to you in due time.
All the stuff, you don't need to chase money, ego, self-pride, let go of all that stuffand all the stuff you could have ever wanted is going to gravitate towards you naturally.
(51:05):
If you just focus on helping people, caring about people and forming genuinerelationships.
I would say a lot more than that, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, man.
no, that was so good.
And I just want to give everyone a reminder, like, it's okay to just be.
(51:25):
And when you're in a space of personal transformation, predators will show up.
And it actually cost me a lot of money in therapy to have somebody tell me, Daniella,you're addicted to self-help.
And like, it's okay to just be.
Right?
It's okay to want to be better, but like, you don't have to be in an abusive relationshipwith your body all the time.
(51:49):
You don't have to be in an abusive relationship with your mind all the time or with yourfinances, right?
Like, you can just be a person and not be obsessed with bettering yourself all the time.
And that's okay.
And I think giving ourselves that okay, right?
Like, we're all three of us are the type of people that are always going to be working onourselves.
(52:10):
Like we don't...
probably need as much help with that as we think, right?
So just like giving yourself the permission.
You know, I like to tell people like, it's okay for your new mission to be you.
Mmm, I like that.
Yeah, and that's well said.
it goes to the heart, of what you've been talking here is that a lot of times the thingsthat we're looking for we already have and we already possess.
(52:35):
But what these gurus do is they identify problems and then they offer you a solution.
And they may even say, as you articulated earlier, hey, you've got everything you need.
Now, let me give you my book here for $19.95.
Hahaha
So you've got everything you need in addition to my book, in addition to my leadership.
(52:58):
And so when you hear those conflicting messages, that's a huge, huge red flag.
So Ben, if folks want to find you, if they want to follow you, if they want to benefitfrom your story or what you're doing now, what's the best way to do that?
Follow my YouTube channel.
It's called Today's Misguided Mentors.
And then the second most active channel would be my Instagram.
(53:20):
It's BenjaminJohnMIC.
And yeah, those are, you can stay up to date on what I'm doing and what I'm up to on thosetwo pages.
And usually I'll kind of disperse that on everything I'm doing.
So you'll know what I'm doing one way or another.
But I forgot to tell you, Scott, to bring all that message back home.
(53:41):
I would say this to myself, like, if it feels bad, it's probably bad.
If it feels good, lean into that energy.
I would make it that stupid simple.
Yeah, well said.
And we will make sure that we have all of your information in the show notes.
So check that out.
A big shout out to our wonderful producer, Haley, who does a tremendous job on producingour program.
(54:05):
Ben, thank you so much.
I feel like we just scratched the surface, so to speak.
So hopefully in the future, we can have you back and continue the story.
And Daniela said it right.
We're all on a journey, right?
And we're all making progress at different speeds.
We're being, we're human beings and that's enough.
(54:25):
Absolutely.
And look, I finished what I was making, so you all get to see it.
I took a scarf.
This one I did my Ted Talk in very early on my journey.
And I added sleeves.
And now it's what we call a love again.
I'm
and Daniela, I saw that you started a new TikTok that is devoted only to knitting andthings of that nature.
(54:47):
Did I see that?
Did I see that wrong?
Okay.
to have one that was only gonna be knitting to see if they would not kick me off, but thenat one point I was suspended and so cults got onto the knitting channel and now it will
never be undone.
They're one of the same now.
There is a channel called Knitting Cult Ladies Closet and that one is where I post more ofmy stuff.
(55:12):
But you see the problem is the least interesting thing about my videos is the knitting.
So anytime I do a video that's just knitting content, it gets suppressed by the cultvideos or the politic videos.
It's a hard life.
Absolutely, yeah.
(55:33):
YouTube, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see a lot of all of the videos.
So, you know, we use the tools that we have.
Thank you so much, Ben.
Keep us posted on the book too, because I'm building pretty good channels fornon-deceptive book sales.
So, you know, we'll stay connected.
(55:53):
I love it.
I appreciate you guys.
Uh, Daniela and Scott, it was pleasure meeting you guys and having a good conversation andyeah, we'll to do this again.
Thank you so much, Ben.
And something that Daniela said, I think is going to be my new sign off on cults and theculting of America.
We're all humans and experiences vary.
So keep that in mind.
(56:14):
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Thanks so much for tuning in.
Be sure and like the channel, subscribe, share with your friends, leave us a review thathelps the algorithm, helps get the information out about this podcast.
We appreciate.
all of you so much.
Until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for Daniela Mestenek Young.
We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
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