April 29, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Scott and Daniella engage with Brianna, who shares her profound journey through the world of yoga and her experiences at Yogaville, a yoga community that turned out to be more complex than it seemed. Brianna discusses her initial attraction to the community, the positive aspects she encountered, and the darker realities that unfolded over time, including manipulation, abuse, and the psychological toll of being involved in a cult-like environment. The conversation emphasizes the importance of trust, intuition, and the need for open discussions about both the good and bad experiences within such organizations.
Briana's Podcast
Haley's Tiktok
Daniella's Links:
You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
For more info on me:
Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd and joining me as always is my friend, Daniela, also known as theKnitting Cult Lady.
uh Hi Daniela, how are you?
Hi, I'm good.
Just doing this.
My microphone.
(00:46):
oh
I'll give you moment to get that adjusted.
uh By the way, for our listeners, I saw your post today where you introduced all of us tothe knitting cult mama and I followed her.
So kudos on that.
I think that's a great thing.
(01:07):
Yeah, thanks.
know, she brought it up while we spent spring break together recently and also got to meetsome of y'all in Dallas.
And she was, you know, feeling like she needed a space to deal with grief and loss oflosing her son about a year and a half ago.
(01:28):
And...
you know, for those who've suffered this kind of really significant losses, people, youknow, the rest of the world moves on, which is fair, but what do the, you know, what do
the grieving people do?
And I think, you know, hopefully a little bit inspired by the stuff you and I do, Scott,you know, she felt like, well, maybe I can build a space for that.
(01:51):
So anyway, her name, if you're interested, is grieving next door mama, and she's onTikTok.
right now creating a space for for grieving and loss for like specifically for parentswho've lost children but I'm sure it's going to grow to to more than that.
Absolutely.
And we encourage everyone to follow Knitting Cult Mama and uh check out that information.
(02:15):
It's really, really good.
And we're going to roll right into tonight's guest.
Brianna is joining us.
Brianna, welcome to Cults and the Culting of America.
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
And the way we sort of operate around here, we just give you an opportunity to introduceyourself and to tell us a little bit of your story.
(02:36):
And I think it's very beneficial.
I was reading a little bit about some of the things that you experienced uh specificallyaround uh yoga, the practice of yoga.
And, uh you know, that's, that's something that a lot of people participate in.
But unfortunately it led to a very negative experience for you.
(02:57):
Yeah.
So I took a gap year from college.
My, after my sophomore year, I, it was actually during my sophomore year, I had tried toattempt uh to take my own life.
And I had, before that I had changed my major so many times and I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm doing here, but this is expensive and wasn't really having that ideal college
(03:23):
experience.
And over
This summer, I got a job at Yellowstone National Park and was working there.
Made a lot of good friends there.
I was practicing yoga with some employees there.
And after we were done practicing one day, my friend was like, there's this place nearwhere I live in Virginia called Yogaville and it's really weird, but I feel like you would
(03:46):
like it.
And I was like, okay.
So I looked it up and they had a month long immersion, yoga immersion program where youlearn.
the yogic philosophy, not just the yogic postures and taking yoga classes, what wetypically think of when we think of yoga, but really delving deep into the philosophy and
(04:06):
the lifestyle and stuff like that.
So I signed up for that for a month.
I think it was 500 bucks at the time for room and board, all organic food.
And for that month, I really loved it.
And I basically ended up staying for like five years.
And they have different centers all around the world.
(04:29):
So I also lived at their center in San Francisco.
I did leave for a little bit to, I eventually went back to school and graduated, but everywinter and summer break, I would have extended winter and summer breaks and I would go to
Yogaville.
So it was really my home for, from like 2015 into almost like 2022-ish.
(04:52):
Wow.
So uh we talk a lot about this on this program, obviously, how uh sometimes theserelatively benign activities can be corrupted, can be leveraged to pull people in.
So what is it specifically about you that attracted uh you to this group?
(05:14):
uh Was it your love for yoga or were you uh sort of looking for something else that theyuh
sort of manipulated and leveraged against you.
Part of it was definitely my interest in yoga.
I wasn't really passionate about it before going there, but I enjoyed the benefits of it.
I enjoyed the practice and knew that there was much more to yoga than what I wasexperiencing in classes and gyms and things like that.
(05:42):
And I wanted to understand it more.
And I was also, like I said, like really depressed at the time at taking a gap year.
from school, I didn't really have a lot of strong social relationships at that time.
And I would say the spirituality aspect part two seeking a deeper meaning in life.
(06:08):
And on the website, actually on Yogaville's website, Swami Satchidananda, the guy whofounded Yogaville says, yoga can make you be happy always.
And when you're really depressed, that sounds
pretty good, but that doesn't seem like something I want anymore because it's like that ifyou're happy all the time, then that's kind of boring in my opinion.
(06:32):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting how you listed like three or four different things thatwere going on with you at the same time.
And that this is, you know, we know that some of our like cult, I was about to call themcult gurus, but there are no gurus, right?
You know, cult experts like Margaret Singer talks about how you just got to have twodifferent things going on at once, right?
(06:55):
So you're taking a gap year and you're feeling depressed or you're like in a new place.
And honestly, I tell people, like anything in the space of personal transformation, you'regonna have predators show up.
So as much as it's like, I always just wanna emphasize that as much as it's like you hadstuff going on and you were a seeker, but also this predatory organization that we're
(07:25):
gonna hear more about.
Mm-hmm.
came for you, right?
And kind of targeted you as this classic person who was just had some stuff going on intheir life, which we sort of all go through at some point.
Yeah, it's interesting because in this age of online marketing and stuff like that, Ididn't really, I mean, also because it was a friend that told me about it.
(07:49):
And I feel like you can interact with this place as a lot of people do.
It's not far from DC.
You can go there for a weekend and have a really great weekend and have great food andgreat yoga classes.
And it's fine, but just the longer you stay there, it's just the more the curtain getspulled back and you see.
the sausage is made.
That's what something they say is like you don't want to you know see how the sausage ismade like if you ask too many questions.
(08:13):
um So yeah.
Yeah.
come for the activity, you come for the food, you come for the community, and uh all of asudden you're there for five years, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there are a lot of, in the podcast that I host, there are a lot of benefits andthings that I enjoyed about living there that I don't want to shy away from because there
(08:38):
was a lot of really positive experiences about it.
I probably, uh if it didn't hit me at that right time, I may have probably made anotherattempt, um but I really found
a lot of joy and quality friendships while I was there with people I still talk to, butthere's, a lot of people I also know have had positive transformations there, but if, I
(09:05):
feel like we can have these positive things without the sexual abuse and the child abuse.
Like, I don't think we have to hide these things.
Brianna, you're hitting the nail on the head with like why this can be so hard for peopleto deconstruct.
And I think it's because, you know, outsiders have this concept of cult that is verybinary, extreme all the time.
(09:31):
And we know those of us who have experienced that it's not like that, that that sense ofcommunity that you feel, that those positive aspects that you feel.
Even, you know, as you said, like getting involved with that could have helped, you know,stopped you from making another attempt.
And like getting obsessed with something when we just need a mission can so often help uskind of survive to the next, you know, the next level or the next point where we're okay.
(10:01):
And I just think that as much as we like dig into cults here on this show and pull itapart,
that it's so interesting to acknowledge that like cults also give sort of good things topeople.
And that's actually part of why people stay longer and put up with so much abuse.
Yeah, there is a woman who I interviewed who was a part of the organization.
(10:25):
There was a mass, there's been multiple mass exoduses from this organization, but the mostrecent one was in 2022 when one of his, Satyadananda's former secretaries went public and
wrote a letter about the sexual relationship that she had with him.
(10:47):
And in the original letter, she
described it as consensual, but then like as time went on, like it's clear in the letterthat it was not a consensual relationship because he's cultivating these father-daughter
relationships with these women and then starting to abuse them.
But then later she, I guess, had more realizations and did more reflecting on thisexperience and now recognizes it as abuse.
(11:14):
But that letter that she wrote, and she's currently in a lawsuit, which I'm
pretty positive she's gonna win, I hope she does win.
um But that letter shifted a lot of the perspective for people and one of the women uh wholeft the organization, who's a psychologist and did a lot of the trainings at Yogaville,
talked about that too.
(11:35):
It's like, you have all these great experiences at this place and you don't wanna believeall these horrible things that are going on.
um So even if you're not experiencing
the bad things yourself and you like these people are your friends and you and on one handyou kind of believe them but on another hand it's like I thought this can't be true I
(11:57):
don't want to believe that this happened.
Yeah.
And, you know, one of the things you mentioned earlier was, like, how cults deal with thisis by information control by saying, don't listen to what people are saying, right?
Don't, don't pull the curtain back too soon.
Right.
And one of my anti, know, anti cult statements here is like, information is never bad.
(12:23):
You know, even if people experience a good experience, right?
Like I
I'm a Costco fan, I generally have a good experience of Costco.
But if people tell me they had a bad experience, like that doesn't bother me.
I don't feel the need to go shut that down.
Like both of these things can be valid and can exist in valid organizations.
(12:47):
You know, to the point that I always tell people like no valid organization has a reasonto tell you.
not to speak to ex-members or like not to pay attention to what the outside world issaying about them.
Like this is one of these almost like clear red flags when we're looking back, but whenwe're incited, you know, it makes so much more sense.
(13:11):
Yeah, people are freaking out whenever, specifically at Yogaville, if ever you mentionanything bad, like someone, for instance, a couple weeks ago came into the radio station
where I produced my podcast and they asked to talk to like the uh director of the radiostation and they gave them this four page paper about like how everything I'm saying is
(13:39):
wrong and horrible.
I'm like, I, like the hometown that I grew up in, if someone said they didn't have a goodexperience there, I'm not gonna go and like try to shut down what this person's saying.
Like it wouldn't matter.
So like the fact that you wrote a four page single spaced essay and drove up here to tryto get this thing taken down, I feel like that says a lot more bad things about the
(14:04):
organization than you think you're saying in this paper.
It's interesting because, you know, two things can be true at once, right?
It can be a helpful place, but it can also be a dangerous place.
and so what for you uh started that unraveling where you began to see behind the curtain,so to speak, and, and was the beginning of the end for your involvement with this, this
(14:30):
group.
Well, it's interesting because before, I think like a couple of days before I went, Ifound this website that looked like it hadn't been updated since the late nineties.
So it was really old.
It didn't look like a professional website at all, but it was this person said that theirkid went to Yogaville.
(14:50):
Her name I now know is Catherine Chang.
And she went to Yogaville for the same program that I went to.
And after three weeks, she married one of the Swamis there and her parents had made thiswebsite uh with like, was a lot of text, pages and pages of text, which like, I was kind
of parsing through it I was like, this website looks kind of weird.
(15:14):
And this happened in the nineties.
So, and I know I'm not going to marry anybody.
So I think I'll be okay.
And.
I think after having been there for a month and I enjoyed it, I kind of put that out of mymind.
Then I would say probably around month three is when I started hearing about SwamiSatchitananda the founder and how he had sexual relationships with some of his devotees or
(15:49):
just people in general, not even devotees.
Um, is what is what I was told.
was just like, he was, uh, there are rumors that he was having sex with people, but Icouldn't really, I didn't feel comfortable asking any of my teachers or the people who
were in charge of the programs.
was a part of about it because I knew enough not to question the Swami.
Cause I've seen how they reacted to certain questions and I was like, I like it here.
(16:12):
So I'm not going to question it, but I had a friend who, um,
She was brave enough to ask a question to one of the leaders of her program.
And he was like, apparently this person said, well, one of the women, I have no reason notto believe her, but the other women, like they're crazy.
(16:39):
And so I remember hearing that being like, doesn't sound right.
But also the guru was dead.
So I was like, okay, well then nothing's gonna happen to me.
So very like self-centered thinking like, nothing's gonna happen to me.
So I should, and I'm enjoying myself.
So why would I leave?
And then slowly, the longer I stayed there, I started seeing a lot of infighting amongstthe leadership and the Swamis there, just like petty toxic stuff when they're presenting
(17:10):
this front.
to the public, like they're happy all the time and they never experience any sadness oranything like that when they're really like fighting and disagreeing over really petty
things.
Yeah, then I think, yeah, keep going.
something that stands out about what you're saying is that, you know, you're trying toresearch and trying to look out for yourself.
(17:34):
But I think what most people are worried about, if it's a cult or if it's weird, they'reworried about abuse, right?
Am I going to be sexually abused?
But we're not sometimes realizing the wire the cult's doing this.
And it's about the labor, right?
if we're new folks, cults are always about labor.
(17:55):
And so you miss the signs of them infringing on your freedom and your labor because you'relike, you're looking out to protect yourself from abuse and you're not being abused in
that way.
And I think that was something going on here for you too.
Yeah.
And I think I also, um, I was working so much that I knew I was working a lot, but Iwasn't able to have real, I didn't really have time to be depressed because I was always
(18:23):
doing something, which I kind of liked or needed at that time was to some sort ofdistraction.
But then eventually, um, someone did, uh, I don't even know what the right word is, likesexual harassment or.
um There was someone who was a program presenter.
So people will come there for a weekend and present something over the weekend and Therewas this guy that I took his program and he pulled me aside in the lobby and Was like he
(18:55):
was like come here like took me to this corner and he had this necklace of some Goddess orsomething.
He was like you are the reincarnation of this
goddess on this necklace and like I have so much that I need to tell you about this.
And in my head I was like, this doesn't sound right.
This sounds kind of fake.
But I was like, what else are you going to do at Yogaville on a Thursday night?
(19:15):
So I was like, okay, I'll go with you to your room.
And so then I go to his, it's called the Lotus Guest House.
They're like the Yogaville hotel basically.
And he's like, sit down here.
And then he comes out with just like a towel on and then like
pushes himself up against me and I just ran out the door at that point.
(19:37):
So that was, think, like year three at Yogaville.
So it was mostly labor, also that happened too.
so sorry that you had to endure that.
And Daniella, you've pointed this out before as well.
In addition to labor, it seems like in a lot of these groups, the aim of the leaders,right, is sex.
(19:58):
They want to have sex with the members and it always ends up going there.
Yeah, and I think very specifically as a function of power.
to, you know, like another thing, we, you know, we get the sex because everyone likes tohave sex, but like, cult leaders like to play power games with people and they need to
(20:22):
keep pushing and pushing the envelope.
And that's why, you know, when you hear these things, it's, you know, it's kind of one ofthese jokes, right, that like, eventually, God always tells everyone that the prophet
needs to sleep with your wife, you know.
um
you really do see it, you know, and you see even in some of these documentaries like aboutHugh Hefner and Playboy, you know, or it's like, even sex with the prettiest, youngest
(20:49):
girls isn't enough.
So now they're going to bring in dogs, you know, and I think that one of the reasons wealways see it, you know, it's, it's not just that they're having sex, it's that they are
taking it from the people with the least power.
And this is also why we often see it going to children.
(21:13):
So that was year three for you, Brianna, when that happened.
uh What happened next, and how did that continue to unravel?
Well, after I ran out, I immediately told one of my friends about what happened.
(21:34):
But I didn't feel comfortable telling anybody else because I could have gotten kicked outfor going in this person's room in the first place.
And I saw so many times people get kicked out for the most minor infractions.
And at this point, I...
even though he invited you in?
I had seen enough where I was under the impression that I would not have been protected.
(21:59):
Yeah.
another tactic, right?
They invite you in, but then they try to pin it on you for violating the rules.
Yeah.
exact story that I have when I was assaulted, deployed to Afghanistan that I couldn'treport it because I would have gotten in trouble for going in his room.
And this is like, to me, this is just a huge red flag in organizations.
(22:22):
Like if people think they can't report an assault or like physical violence to seniorleaders because they're going to be against you for that.
Something bad's going on there, right?
Yeah, so I didn't and I also couldn't leave because again with the labor exploitation Ihad been working there for so long and I think I was making like $75 a month or something
(22:45):
and most of that was I think $20 and that was rolled quarters for laundry.
So it was not that much money I had.
Definitely didn't have any money to put a down payment on an apartment or anything butalso I had a lot of good friends there and it was my home.
at that point.
So I ended up staying there for longer and uh I did my yoga.
(23:10):
I finally was able to do the yoga teacher, the real yoga teacher training program whereyou get a, you know, a 200 hour certificate.
And then I moved to the San Francisco center and lived there for a bit.
And then I eventually moved back to YogaVille.
So I still ended up staying for a while.
Yeah, because they put you in a position where it was virtually impossible to leave.
(23:36):
They kept you busy, they kept you distracted, and they gave you just enough money toexist, but not to walk out the door.
Yeah, they give you just enough money to have snacks at the cafe that they own.
Basically, that's where all the money ends up going back anyway, because they don't giveyou any, like, any tasty sweets or anything.
(23:57):
It's all like very healthy, organic food.
But, you know, if you want a bag of chips or a piece of chocolate or something, that'sthat was like chocolate money, basically.
Keep you hungry, keep you skinny.
They're hitting all the...
They're hitting all the things.
Yeah.
pointed out, Daniela, that these groups, they're not just interested in your labor alone,but they want total control.
(24:23):
uh You've talked uh eloquently about how they even attempt to control shower time.
They attempt to control underwear, things that really should be the agency.
and the personal autonomy that all of us should keep to ourselves, you have these groupseven regulating down to what you wear under your clothes, in addition to what you're
(24:53):
wearing outside.
Yeah, you know, and this is why I think these patterns are so interesting, you know, and Ithink Brianna is probably the first yoga guest that we had on, you know, but easy to
recognize patterns, right?
And it's like, it really, really doesn't matter what it is, right?
(25:14):
Like there was always an explanation.
But once you start realizing that it's always there, right?
I'm sure you had some version of shower control in Yogaville.
You've already talked about food control.
just like, at the time, they give you a reason for it.
It makes sense.
(25:35):
You don't have other models for people doing this.
So you're like, yeah, we got to save water.
um But it's really, it's always about the control.
Yeah, the appearance control, um you mentioning that I remember actually my first weekendthere, they had a sit in on lectures with different swamis that had been there for
(25:57):
decades.
And the one that I went to um was someone who had been there for at least 50 years.
And she was talking about like how you're supposed to present yourself as a yogi and likehow you're supposed to bathe yourself and how...
um
Like, she was like, you may not care what you wear, but everybody else has to look at youall the time.
(26:19):
So you should really dress yourself in this specific way.
So people like, uh aren't, you know, displeased when they look at you.
But like, she was this old lady and the way she said it was like kind of funny, but I'mlike, maybe that wasn't so funny.
Like her delivery of that, uh, was kind of funny and charming.
But when you like just read the words or
(26:42):
think of that statement.
It's not, it's about control.
it's...
Aunt Lydia, right?
It's Aunt Lydia on Handmaid's Tale.
It's, you know, this person that is saying that they care about you, but ultimately theyare a tool of the system to maintain control.
(27:02):
And I also think this one thing that I always find a little bit there under appearancecontrol, control too.
It's like, and you're supposed to be a little bit sexy, right?
And this is even in the military.
Like we always say, you're supposed to look good in uniform and you're supposed to havelike just the right amount of like professional sex appeal to kind of sell it, right?
(27:29):
And this is where I say all cults are about
performance, you know, and controlling appearance is about controlling behavior.
And it's about always right the the the sexy youth pastor, right is the thing we've talkedabout before, Scott.
And like, you're kind of coached on like, you're supposed to be that just a little bit andjust in the right amounts.
(27:55):
um And I think it's funny that that kind of always comes through in different ways as wellin the appearance control.
So Brianna, uh how did this continue to unravel and where did it eventually lead you?
So eventually I had a job in the office building and so in my spare time I would just likeperuse around and like sneak around and look at documents and things like that and I just
(28:24):
kept finding out more and more uh just things that were being hidden from me and I'mtrying to think of the document that I found um
uh There was an article that was written, I believe it was The New Yorker, and it was, thename of the article was something like, The Role of the Guru in the Age of Me Too.
(28:52):
And in the first paragraph or so, they mentioned Swami Satchitananda.
And uh they, I was a copywriter at the time, so they had asked me,
would you write a response to this?
And I was like, I will, but we have to address the fact that he did this and apologize forthat and say how this is different now or how we're working to change things or make
(29:16):
things safer.
And then um they were like, okay, we'll have a meeting about that.
And then at the meeting, I guess they decided we're just not gonna address it at all.
um But you can just direct them to this number if...
You know, if anybody calls about it, you can direct them to whatever person.
(29:40):
But I found a document, this like statement that they had written that it was a publicstatement that if anybody calls about this article or asking questions about this, this is
the statement you gave.
And I don't remember exactly, I have a picture of it.
um But I just remember reading that and being like, this is ridiculous.
And then I just like had so much more psychological stress because I had this.
(30:01):
ah
expectation to, you know, be happy for the guests and provide that positive yoga feelexperience to them.
But then all this other shit is going on in the background.
And I was also diagnosed with bipolar around this time too.
So I had like my first manic episode, which I believe was caused by just the amount ofstress that I was under.
(30:28):
um
Cause that's definitely a trigger for me now that I know is like if I'm under too muchstress for too long, that can trigger one of these episodes.
And so I had a manic episode, ended up in a psychiatric hospital for a couple of weeks.
(30:48):
And then when I went back, the Swami who I was renting from, she was like, you can't liveat my house anymore.
So basically I had nowhere to live, so I had to move back in with my parents.
But I was still at the time, I was like, I still really like Yogaville.
So I was still working for them remotely.
And like they had started a BIPOC yoga teacher training program that was virtual.
(31:13):
And I was like, I really want to help out with this.
So I helped out with that too.
But then slowly started pulling back and then once...
That letter came out from Shanti Norris, the former secretary.
I was like, okay, yeah, there's no need for me to be a part of this organization anylonger.
(31:36):
And then I started talking to some of my friends there more about it and learned a lotmore about the child abuse that went on there.
And that was what like really was like, okay, yeah, I'm definitely there's no need for meto be a part of an organization where they're molesting children.
And you know, one of the things that stands out to me is the secrecy, right?
(31:58):
The secrecy is just always, always bad.
you know, in these really real cults that we know are cults, we can identify there'salways some sort of form of weaponized, I call it weaponized lying, or justified lying,
sorry, weaponized secrecy, justified lying.
(32:19):
You know, but there's always some reason we're lying to the outside.
outside world, right?
Or we don't call it lying, right?
We call it deceivers yet true.
The Mormons do straight call it lying for the Lord.
Jehovah's Witnesses call it transcendental trickery.
That one's my favorite.
You know, but it's, you know, we polish it up in this way, this way.
(32:40):
It's not, you don't get it, blah, blah, blah.
But like, you know, I think...
it's one of these things we can mark as a red flag once we start to understand it becauselike adults in an organization can understand or you know, like adults that are not in an
organization can understand something if it's validly explained to them.
(33:00):
And the, but once you find out that like the organization is lying to you, right?
This sort of weaponized secrecy against you, member that they're.
making feel like is actually part of this team.
I think that can be a really big sort of like crack in the brainwashing or, you know,expansion in the crack of the brainwashing sounds like you had already had the crack.
(33:29):
Because people are like, well, I'm, you know, I could understand lying to outsiders,right?
But like, I'm on the team.
Why are why are you lying to me?
um And then one more thing just from what you shared that I wanted to point out to peopleis like Sometimes you leave the cult in stages Sometimes you go bounce to a place where
(33:53):
you're physically safe, but you're still mentally there working for them uh You know, butthat doesn't mean you're not like on your way out
You know, or like, I never want people to feel too apologetic about that part because itwas like you were doing what you needed to do to be safe to then like mentally come out of
(34:15):
it as well.
Yeah, when you were talking about the lying part, I was reminded Swami Satchidananda wouldsay, yoga is perfection in action, which I don't really think that's what yoga means, but
he said yoga is perfection in action and a lie can be perfect if it helps someone andhurts no one.
(34:39):
So they like, he's, you know, laying that groundwork there for, it's a, he doesn't saylike when it's time, like,
doesn't give like, you should lie about the fact that I'm having sex with people, but justlike, he was very subtle with a lot of the things he said.
something that we even see in government, right?
(34:59):
The justified lying.
A lot of times uh they will come out and say, you know, we're going to be the mosttransparent government that you've ever had.
Well, you know, yeah, you're talking a lot, but everything that's coming out of your mouthis not true.
It's a lie.
And you are engaging uh in misinformation and in propaganda and uh
(35:24):
I'm reminded Hannah Arndt, who was a philosopher who uh escaped the Holocaust and wrote alot about uh what happened in Nazi Germany.
She had this phrase, the banality of evil.
In other words, there's just ordinary people.
(35:44):
A lot of times we think that these groups are composed or made up of monsters and scarypeople.
But a lot of times it's just ordinary people that believe in the cause or have beenattracted to the group for a variety of reasons.
And then these people, these good ordinary people are manipulated and they are treated aspawns to help spread the message.
(36:13):
And a lot of times, uh as in your case, until you started doing this investigation andcoming across these documents,
Um, you believed that you were sharing helpful information and, and, know, that's, um,that, that had to be, that had to be a challenging for you as well.
know for me and leaving the group that I was a part of, for so long, uh, part of, uh, theunraveling for me.
(36:42):
And it happened in stages as well.
Um, for me, but the part of the unraveling was that.
all of a sudden I'm discovering all of this information that no one had ever shared withme.
I had never heard a conversation about it.
I had never heard anybody talk about it.
And then when I began to ask questions, they started to shut that down.
(37:07):
And so I imagine that was something you went through as well.
Yeah, I think it felt more like just my brain couldn't handle all the contradictions andit was just so confusing on top of like experiencing bipolar symptoms that I hadn't
experienced before.
(37:28):
So it wasn't just one thing.
was...
I think it was most, it was really a big part of it was hearing stories from my friendswho grew up there and all the hell they went through as children.
And cause like the things I heard before, this Catherine Chang, was like, okay, thishappened back in the nineties.
(37:54):
I don't know this person.
They're not here anymore.
So I guess they must've divorced this person they married and Swami Satya Dananda died andthese, people.
I didn't know any of these women's names, seeing that these are real people who are stillimpacted by this, and then this woman writing this letter, like, this is a real person.
(38:19):
It's not just uh some words that I'm reading on a piece of paper.
Yeah.
And that's when it brings it home, right?
The idea that oh this is doing real harm.
This is perpetuating harm and it's inflicting itself on real people.
So when you left and you returned to your parents, were there people that reached out toyou?
(38:43):
Did they want you to return?
Did they demand that you uh sign a release form or a non-disclosure form?
How did all of that?
work out in your experience.
No, they didn't have me sign anything.
I had, ah like I was dating someone there at the time who still lives there.
(39:04):
So like, would still talk to him, but he was like the only, the really only, only personthat I'd stayed in contact with that was still there.
Cause people come through there all the time, like either on the weekends or they'll comefor a month or a week or something.
And so I've met a lot of friends that came through there that I would stay in contactwith, but in terms of people who lived there.
(39:25):
there was only that, really that one person that I stayed in contact with and I was stillworking remotely.
So I guess my boss, I stayed in contact with her for a while just via email.
um But yeah.
And where do you find yourself today?
What kinds of things are you doing to make people aware of what's happening in this group?
(39:50):
if people wanted to get in touch with you or find you, how would they do that?
Yes, I have a podcast called Surviving Satchitananda, the dark secrets of an internationalyoga movement.
Hopefully we can have a link in there because it's hard for people to spell Satchitananda.
And yeah, it's hard to say too.
(40:12):
I was writing some stuff on Medium.
I'm writing now for a local newspaper about my experience there.
So for my podcast, I'm interviewing people who
Right now, people who used to live at YogaVille or were deeply involved in YogaVille andum cult experts as well.
(40:35):
So far, it's just been people who used to live there finding out more information aboutthis.
I'm learning too.
As I interview people, I definitely don't know everything yet.
And uh I'm trying really hard to make sure that it's...
I'm not just like completely demonizing the organization because everybody that comes inis...
(40:56):
like talks about how many benefits that they also had, as well as the horrible things thathappened there.
So I'm trying to make sure it's a more balanced approach, but still honest about what'sreally going on there.
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and we will definitely link to your podcastand to what you're doing.
(41:20):
If there was one thing that you want people to take away from your experience or ifsomeone is going through something similar to what you experienced and you had the
opportunity to help them, to speak to them, what would you say?
Hmm
I would say trust your intuition.
If you're asking a lot of questions and something doesn't feel right, don't let people uhconvince you otherwise.
(41:44):
You know, and something else, Brianna, from what you're saying that like nuancedconversations about our experiences are not bad.
You know, and it's it's very common thing for cult survivors to feel like they have to beso careful about how they talk about the experience, because they want to make sure not to
like demonize it, as you said, right.
(42:06):
But like,
it, you know, we can talk about our negative experiences and talk about our positiveexperiences.
People sometimes will try to push me into a corner with this with the army.
I'm like, well, do you have any positives that you got out of it?
And I'm like, sure, you know, got got positives out of the cult, too.
And we can have, you know, those conversations and it doesn't take away from the negativesand, you know, vice versa.
(42:35):
And I just want to say, like, I think what you're doing is
work building this narrative and this space to like, hold the nuanced conversations.
It doesn't have to be either or and like, for the rest of your life, you're going to be ayoga instructor that knows all of this stuff and has all of these skills that you got,
(42:56):
right?
And you don't have to feel that like, you have to walk away from absolutely everythingthat you gained, just in order to talk about the negatives of your experience.
So like, thanks for being a leader in this space because so many more people need to hearabout this yoga stuff also.
And the nuanced story is uh persuasive as well, right?
(43:19):
If you came out of the gate and just talked about all of the bad things, immediatelyyou're going to be dismissed by a lot of people as uh a disgruntled employee or a bidder.
And I know that I went through this experience as well, and I've written about itextensively.
In fact, I've got a forthcoming book about it, about my experiences and what I did.
(43:41):
tried to focus.
on the good and the bad, that nuanced experience as Daniela describes it, because when youdo so, people that are still involved with the group, oh they are more likely to listen to
you.
uh Instead, if you came out with guns blazing, so to speak, that they would immediatelyshut you down.
(44:08):
I feel like that guns blazing approach to though, for the record, I think that's valid.
Like there's people who have had some really horrible experiences at Yogaville who want tocome on, but their experience was so bad that it's really hard for them to talk about.
And I hope they do one day, you know, decide to go on if they're comfortable.
Um, so we probably are going to have some stories that are overwhelmingly negative, but,um, for now the people that are coming on.
(44:34):
have positive things to say too, and that's okay too.
Brianna, thank you so much for joining us.
And again, we will put oh all of your information in the show notes.
And uh hopefully as you continue to develop your podcast and your story continues to getout there, we'll hear from you again in the future.
(44:54):
So thank you for being on our program.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
And, Daniela, um we've got all kinds of things happening with you and people need tofollow you.
They need to follow you.
The Knitting Cult Mama.
They need to read the book Uncultured.
They need to subscribe, to like, and to share, and all of that good stuff that's happeningwith you.
(45:18):
Yeah, and if you're interested in following along with chapters of Culting of Americas,they get done now.
They're going to start being posted on the Patreon.
So come check that out.
All of the links for everything will be in the show notes.
And thanks so much to everybody for listening to another episode of our show tonight.
(45:40):
Yeah, and we've got about five minutes left.
So Haley, our producer, does a tremendous job.
And I appreciate everything that they do.
So Haley, if you don't mind, would you come back on camera for just a moment?
I hope she's there.
I hope she's listening.
Good, good.
So, Haley, I'm perusing TikTok today and I see your face.
(46:06):
And so we need to tell everybody about what you're doing on your platform as well.
Sorry, I know this is sort of putting you on the spot here.
Ha ha ha ha ha
as one does.
Well, we'll put it in the show notes.
We'll put it in the show notes so people can find you and subscribe because you do atremendous job and you're one of, uh I think people need to hear more from you.
(46:27):
You do a tremendous job producing this podcast and we're very appreciative of everythingthat you do.
And thank all of you for listening and tuning in, subscribing, sharing, and leaving areview that helps with the magic of the algorithm to get the information out there.
So for Daniela, the Knitting Cult Lady, I'm Scott Lloyd, and we'll see you on the nextepisode of Cults and the Culting of America.
Welcome to another episode of Cults and the Culting of America podcast.
My name is Scott Lloyd and joining me as always is my friend, Daniela, also known as theKnitting Cult Lady.
uh Hi Daniela, how are you?
Hi, I'm good.
Just doing this.
My microphone.
(00:46):
oh
I'll give you moment to get that adjusted.
uh By the way, for our listeners, I saw your post today where you introduced all of us tothe knitting cult mama and I followed her.
So kudos on that.
I think that's a great thing.
(01:07):
Yeah, thanks.
know, she brought it up while we spent spring break together recently and also got to meetsome of y'all in Dallas.
And she was, you know, feeling like she needed a space to deal with grief and loss oflosing her son about a year and a half ago.
(01:28):
And...
you know, for those who've suffered this kind of really significant losses, people, youknow, the rest of the world moves on, which is fair, but what do the, you know, what do
the grieving people do?
And I think, you know, hopefully a little bit inspired by the stuff you and I do, Scott,you know, she felt like, well, maybe I can build a space for that.
(01:51):
So anyway, her name, if you're interested, is grieving next door mama, and she's onTikTok.
right now creating a space for for grieving and loss for like specifically for parentswho've lost children but I'm sure it's going to grow to to more than that.
Absolutely.
And we encourage everyone to follow Knitting Cult Mama and uh check out that information.
(02:15):
It's really, really good.
And we're going to roll right into tonight's guest.
Brianna is joining us.
Brianna, welcome to Cults and the Culting of America.
Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here.
And the way we sort of operate around here, we just give you an opportunity to introduceyourself and to tell us a little bit of your story.
(02:36):
And I think it's very beneficial.
I was reading a little bit about some of the things that you experienced uh specificallyaround uh yoga, the practice of yoga.
And, uh you know, that's, that's something that a lot of people participate in.
But unfortunately it led to a very negative experience for you.
(02:57):
Yeah.
So I took a gap year from college.
My, after my sophomore year, I, it was actually during my sophomore year, I had tried toattempt uh to take my own life.
And I had, before that I had changed my major so many times and I was like, I don't knowwhat I'm doing here, but this is expensive and wasn't really having that ideal college
(03:23):
experience.
And over
This summer, I got a job at Yellowstone National Park and was working there.
Made a lot of good friends there.
I was practicing yoga with some employees there.
And after we were done practicing one day, my friend was like, there's this place nearwhere I live in Virginia called Yogaville and it's really weird, but I feel like you would
(03:46):
like it.
And I was like, okay.
So I looked it up and they had a month long immersion, yoga immersion program where youlearn.
the yogic philosophy, not just the yogic postures and taking yoga classes, what wetypically think of when we think of yoga, but really delving deep into the philosophy and
(04:06):
the lifestyle and stuff like that.
So I signed up for that for a month.
I think it was 500 bucks at the time for room and board, all organic food.
And for that month, I really loved it.
And I basically ended up staying for like five years.
And they have different centers all around the world.
(04:29):
So I also lived at their center in San Francisco.
I did leave for a little bit to, I eventually went back to school and graduated, but everywinter and summer break, I would have extended winter and summer breaks and I would go to
Yogaville.
So it was really my home for, from like 2015 into almost like 2022-ish.
(04:52):
Wow.
So uh we talk a lot about this on this program, obviously, how uh sometimes theserelatively benign activities can be corrupted, can be leveraged to pull people in.
So what is it specifically about you that attracted uh you to this group?
(05:14):
uh Was it your love for yoga or were you uh sort of looking for something else that theyuh
sort of manipulated and leveraged against you.
Part of it was definitely my interest in yoga.
I wasn't really passionate about it before going there, but I enjoyed the benefits of it.
I enjoyed the practice and knew that there was much more to yoga than what I wasexperiencing in classes and gyms and things like that.
(05:42):
And I wanted to understand it more.
And I was also, like I said, like really depressed at the time at taking a gap year.
from school, I didn't really have a lot of strong social relationships at that time.
And I would say the spirituality aspect part two seeking a deeper meaning in life.
(06:08):
And on the website, actually on Yogaville's website, Swami Satchidananda, the guy whofounded Yogaville says, yoga can make you be happy always.
And when you're really depressed, that sounds
pretty good, but that doesn't seem like something I want anymore because it's like that ifyou're happy all the time, then that's kind of boring in my opinion.
(06:32):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting how you listed like three or four different things thatwere going on with you at the same time.
And that this is, you know, we know that some of our like cult, I was about to call themcult gurus, but there are no gurus, right?
You know, cult experts like Margaret Singer talks about how you just got to have twodifferent things going on at once, right?
(06:55):
So you're taking a gap year and you're feeling depressed or you're like in a new place.
And honestly, I tell people, like anything in the space of personal transformation, you'regonna have predators show up.
So as much as it's like, I always just wanna emphasize that as much as it's like you hadstuff going on and you were a seeker, but also this predatory organization that we're
(07:25):
gonna hear more about.
Mm-hmm.
came for you, right?
And kind of targeted you as this classic person who was just had some stuff going on intheir life, which we sort of all go through at some point.
Yeah, it's interesting because in this age of online marketing and stuff like that, Ididn't really, I mean, also because it was a friend that told me about it.
(07:49):
And I feel like you can interact with this place as a lot of people do.
It's not far from DC.
You can go there for a weekend and have a really great weekend and have great food andgreat yoga classes.
And it's fine, but just the longer you stay there, it's just the more the curtain getspulled back and you see.
the sausage is made.
That's what something they say is like you don't want to you know see how the sausage ismade like if you ask too many questions.
(08:13):
um So yeah.
Yeah.
come for the activity, you come for the food, you come for the community, and uh all of asudden you're there for five years, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, there are a lot of, in the podcast that I host, there are a lot of benefits andthings that I enjoyed about living there that I don't want to shy away from because there
(08:38):
was a lot of really positive experiences about it.
I probably, uh if it didn't hit me at that right time, I may have probably made anotherattempt, um but I really found
a lot of joy and quality friendships while I was there with people I still talk to, butthere's, a lot of people I also know have had positive transformations there, but if, I
(09:05):
feel like we can have these positive things without the sexual abuse and the child abuse.
Like, I don't think we have to hide these things.
Brianna, you're hitting the nail on the head with like why this can be so hard for peopleto deconstruct.
And I think it's because, you know, outsiders have this concept of cult that is verybinary, extreme all the time.
(09:31):
And we know those of us who have experienced that it's not like that, that that sense ofcommunity that you feel, that those positive aspects that you feel.
Even, you know, as you said, like getting involved with that could have helped, you know,stopped you from making another attempt.
And like getting obsessed with something when we just need a mission can so often help uskind of survive to the next, you know, the next level or the next point where we're okay.
(10:01):
And I just think that as much as we like dig into cults here on this show and pull itapart,
that it's so interesting to acknowledge that like cults also give sort of good things topeople.
And that's actually part of why people stay longer and put up with so much abuse.
Yeah, there is a woman who I interviewed who was a part of the organization.
(10:25):
There was a mass, there's been multiple mass exoduses from this organization, but the mostrecent one was in 2022 when one of his, Satyadananda's former secretaries went public and
wrote a letter about the sexual relationship that she had with him.
(10:47):
And in the original letter, she
described it as consensual, but then like as time went on, like it's clear in the letterthat it was not a consensual relationship because he's cultivating these father-daughter
relationships with these women and then starting to abuse them.
But then later she, I guess, had more realizations and did more reflecting on thisexperience and now recognizes it as abuse.
(11:14):
But that letter that she wrote, and she's currently in a lawsuit, which I'm
pretty positive she's gonna win, I hope she does win.
um But that letter shifted a lot of the perspective for people and one of the women uh wholeft the organization, who's a psychologist and did a lot of the trainings at Yogaville,
talked about that too.
(11:35):
It's like, you have all these great experiences at this place and you don't wanna believeall these horrible things that are going on.
um So even if you're not experiencing
the bad things yourself and you like these people are your friends and you and on one handyou kind of believe them but on another hand it's like I thought this can't be true I
(11:57):
don't want to believe that this happened.
Yeah.
And, you know, one of the things you mentioned earlier was, like, how cults deal with thisis by information control by saying, don't listen to what people are saying, right?
Don't, don't pull the curtain back too soon.
Right.
And one of my anti, know, anti cult statements here is like, information is never bad.
(12:23):
You know, even if people experience a good experience, right?
Like I
I'm a Costco fan, I generally have a good experience of Costco.
But if people tell me they had a bad experience, like that doesn't bother me.
I don't feel the need to go shut that down.
Like both of these things can be valid and can exist in valid organizations.
(12:47):
You know, to the point that I always tell people like no valid organization has a reasonto tell you.
not to speak to ex-members or like not to pay attention to what the outside world issaying about them.
Like this is one of these almost like clear red flags when we're looking back, but whenwe're incited, you know, it makes so much more sense.
(13:11):
Yeah, people are freaking out whenever, specifically at Yogaville, if ever you mentionanything bad, like someone, for instance, a couple weeks ago came into the radio station
where I produced my podcast and they asked to talk to like the uh director of the radiostation and they gave them this four page paper about like how everything I'm saying is
(13:39):
wrong and horrible.
I'm like, I, like the hometown that I grew up in, if someone said they didn't have a goodexperience there, I'm not gonna go and like try to shut down what this person's saying.
Like it wouldn't matter.
So like the fact that you wrote a four page single spaced essay and drove up here to tryto get this thing taken down, I feel like that says a lot more bad things about the
(14:04):
organization than you think you're saying in this paper.
It's interesting because, you know, two things can be true at once, right?
It can be a helpful place, but it can also be a dangerous place.
and so what for you uh started that unraveling where you began to see behind the curtain,so to speak, and, and was the beginning of the end for your involvement with this, this
(14:30):
group.
Well, it's interesting because before, I think like a couple of days before I went, Ifound this website that looked like it hadn't been updated since the late nineties.
So it was really old.
It didn't look like a professional website at all, but it was this person said that theirkid went to Yogaville.
(14:50):
Her name I now know is Catherine Chang.
And she went to Yogaville for the same program that I went to.
And after three weeks, she married one of the Swamis there and her parents had made thiswebsite uh with like, was a lot of text, pages and pages of text, which like, I was kind
of parsing through it I was like, this website looks kind of weird.
(15:14):
And this happened in the nineties.
So, and I know I'm not going to marry anybody.
So I think I'll be okay.
And.
I think after having been there for a month and I enjoyed it, I kind of put that out of mymind.
Then I would say probably around month three is when I started hearing about SwamiSatchitananda the founder and how he had sexual relationships with some of his devotees or
(15:49):
just people in general, not even devotees.
Um, is what is what I was told.
was just like, he was, uh, there are rumors that he was having sex with people, but Icouldn't really, I didn't feel comfortable asking any of my teachers or the people who
were in charge of the programs.
was a part of about it because I knew enough not to question the Swami.
Cause I've seen how they reacted to certain questions and I was like, I like it here.
(16:12):
So I'm not going to question it, but I had a friend who, um,
She was brave enough to ask a question to one of the leaders of her program.
And he was like, apparently this person said, well, one of the women, I have no reason notto believe her, but the other women, like they're crazy.
(16:39):
And so I remember hearing that being like, doesn't sound right.
But also the guru was dead.
So I was like, okay, well then nothing's gonna happen to me.
So very like self-centered thinking like, nothing's gonna happen to me.
So I should, and I'm enjoying myself.
So why would I leave?
And then slowly, the longer I stayed there, I started seeing a lot of infighting amongstthe leadership and the Swamis there, just like petty toxic stuff when they're presenting
(17:10):
this front.
to the public, like they're happy all the time and they never experience any sadness oranything like that when they're really like fighting and disagreeing over really petty
things.
Yeah, then I think, yeah, keep going.
something that stands out about what you're saying is that, you know, you're trying toresearch and trying to look out for yourself.
(17:34):
But I think what most people are worried about, if it's a cult or if it's weird, they'reworried about abuse, right?
Am I going to be sexually abused?
But we're not sometimes realizing the wire the cult's doing this.
And it's about the labor, right?
if we're new folks, cults are always about labor.
(17:55):
And so you miss the signs of them infringing on your freedom and your labor because you'relike, you're looking out to protect yourself from abuse and you're not being abused in
that way.
And I think that was something going on here for you too.
Yeah.
And I think I also, um, I was working so much that I knew I was working a lot, but Iwasn't able to have real, I didn't really have time to be depressed because I was always
(18:23):
doing something, which I kind of liked or needed at that time was to some sort ofdistraction.
But then eventually, um, someone did, uh, I don't even know what the right word is, likesexual harassment or.
um There was someone who was a program presenter.
So people will come there for a weekend and present something over the weekend and Therewas this guy that I took his program and he pulled me aside in the lobby and Was like he
(18:55):
was like come here like took me to this corner and he had this necklace of some Goddess orsomething.
He was like you are the reincarnation of this
goddess on this necklace and like I have so much that I need to tell you about this.
And in my head I was like, this doesn't sound right.
This sounds kind of fake.
But I was like, what else are you going to do at Yogaville on a Thursday night?
(19:15):
So I was like, okay, I'll go with you to your room.
And so then I go to his, it's called the Lotus Guest House.
They're like the Yogaville hotel basically.
And he's like, sit down here.
And then he comes out with just like a towel on and then like
pushes himself up against me and I just ran out the door at that point.
(19:37):
So that was, think, like year three at Yogaville.
So it was mostly labor, also that happened too.
so sorry that you had to endure that.
And Daniella, you've pointed this out before as well.
In addition to labor, it seems like in a lot of these groups, the aim of the leaders,right, is sex.
(19:58):
They want to have sex with the members and it always ends up going there.
Yeah, and I think very specifically as a function of power.
to, you know, like another thing, we, you know, we get the sex because everyone likes tohave sex, but like, cult leaders like to play power games with people and they need to
(20:22):
keep pushing and pushing the envelope.
And that's why, you know, when you hear these things, it's, you know, it's kind of one ofthese jokes, right, that like, eventually, God always tells everyone that the prophet
needs to sleep with your wife, you know.
um
you really do see it, you know, and you see even in some of these documentaries like aboutHugh Hefner and Playboy, you know, or it's like, even sex with the prettiest, youngest
(20:49):
girls isn't enough.
So now they're going to bring in dogs, you know, and I think that one of the reasons wealways see it, you know, it's, it's not just that they're having sex, it's that they are
taking it from the people with the least power.
And this is also why we often see it going to children.
(21:13):
So that was year three for you, Brianna, when that happened.
uh What happened next, and how did that continue to unravel?
Well, after I ran out, I immediately told one of my friends about what happened.
(21:34):
But I didn't feel comfortable telling anybody else because I could have gotten kicked outfor going in this person's room in the first place.
And I saw so many times people get kicked out for the most minor infractions.
And at this point, I...
even though he invited you in?
I had seen enough where I was under the impression that I would not have been protected.
(21:59):
Yeah.
another tactic, right?
They invite you in, but then they try to pin it on you for violating the rules.
Yeah.
exact story that I have when I was assaulted, deployed to Afghanistan that I couldn'treport it because I would have gotten in trouble for going in his room.
And this is like, to me, this is just a huge red flag in organizations.
(22:22):
Like if people think they can't report an assault or like physical violence to seniorleaders because they're going to be against you for that.
Something bad's going on there, right?
Yeah, so I didn't and I also couldn't leave because again with the labor exploitation Ihad been working there for so long and I think I was making like $75 a month or something
(22:45):
and most of that was I think $20 and that was rolled quarters for laundry.
So it was not that much money I had.
Definitely didn't have any money to put a down payment on an apartment or anything butalso I had a lot of good friends there and it was my home.
at that point.
So I ended up staying there for longer and uh I did my yoga.
(23:10):
I finally was able to do the yoga teacher, the real yoga teacher training program whereyou get a, you know, a 200 hour certificate.
And then I moved to the San Francisco center and lived there for a bit.
And then I eventually moved back to YogaVille.
So I still ended up staying for a while.
Yeah, because they put you in a position where it was virtually impossible to leave.
(23:36):
They kept you busy, they kept you distracted, and they gave you just enough money toexist, but not to walk out the door.
Yeah, they give you just enough money to have snacks at the cafe that they own.
Basically, that's where all the money ends up going back anyway, because they don't giveyou any, like, any tasty sweets or anything.
(23:57):
It's all like very healthy, organic food.
But, you know, if you want a bag of chips or a piece of chocolate or something, that'sthat was like chocolate money, basically.
Keep you hungry, keep you skinny.
They're hitting all the...
They're hitting all the things.
Yeah.
pointed out, Daniela, that these groups, they're not just interested in your labor alone,but they want total control.
(24:23):
uh You've talked uh eloquently about how they even attempt to control shower time.
They attempt to control underwear, things that really should be the agency.
and the personal autonomy that all of us should keep to ourselves, you have these groupseven regulating down to what you wear under your clothes, in addition to what you're
(24:53):
wearing outside.
Yeah, you know, and this is why I think these patterns are so interesting, you know, and Ithink Brianna is probably the first yoga guest that we had on, you know, but easy to
recognize patterns, right?
And it's like, it really, really doesn't matter what it is, right?
(25:14):
Like there was always an explanation.
But once you start realizing that it's always there, right?
I'm sure you had some version of shower control in Yogaville.
You've already talked about food control.
just like, at the time, they give you a reason for it.
It makes sense.
(25:35):
You don't have other models for people doing this.
So you're like, yeah, we got to save water.
um But it's really, it's always about the control.
Yeah, the appearance control, um you mentioning that I remember actually my first weekendthere, they had a sit in on lectures with different swamis that had been there for
(25:57):
decades.
And the one that I went to um was someone who had been there for at least 50 years.
And she was talking about like how you're supposed to present yourself as a yogi and likehow you're supposed to bathe yourself and how...
um
Like, she was like, you may not care what you wear, but everybody else has to look at youall the time.
(26:19):
So you should really dress yourself in this specific way.
So people like, uh aren't, you know, displeased when they look at you.
But like, she was this old lady and the way she said it was like kind of funny, but I'mlike, maybe that wasn't so funny.
Like her delivery of that, uh, was kind of funny and charming.
But when you like just read the words or
(26:42):
think of that statement.
It's not, it's about control.
it's...
Aunt Lydia, right?
It's Aunt Lydia on Handmaid's Tale.
It's, you know, this person that is saying that they care about you, but ultimately theyare a tool of the system to maintain control.
(27:02):
And I also think this one thing that I always find a little bit there under appearancecontrol, control too.
It's like, and you're supposed to be a little bit sexy, right?
And this is even in the military.
Like we always say, you're supposed to look good in uniform and you're supposed to havelike just the right amount of like professional sex appeal to kind of sell it, right?
(27:29):
And this is where I say all cults are about
performance, you know, and controlling appearance is about controlling behavior.
And it's about always right the the the sexy youth pastor, right is the thing we've talkedabout before, Scott.
And like, you're kind of coached on like, you're supposed to be that just a little bit andjust in the right amounts.
(27:55):
um And I think it's funny that that kind of always comes through in different ways as wellin the appearance control.
So Brianna, uh how did this continue to unravel and where did it eventually lead you?
So eventually I had a job in the office building and so in my spare time I would just likeperuse around and like sneak around and look at documents and things like that and I just
(28:24):
kept finding out more and more uh just things that were being hidden from me and I'mtrying to think of the document that I found um
uh There was an article that was written, I believe it was The New Yorker, and it was, thename of the article was something like, The Role of the Guru in the Age of Me Too.
(28:52):
And in the first paragraph or so, they mentioned Swami Satchitananda.
And uh they, I was a copywriter at the time, so they had asked me,
would you write a response to this?
And I was like, I will, but we have to address the fact that he did this and apologize forthat and say how this is different now or how we're working to change things or make
(29:16):
things safer.
And then um they were like, okay, we'll have a meeting about that.
And then at the meeting, I guess they decided we're just not gonna address it at all.
um But you can just direct them to this number if...
You know, if anybody calls about it, you can direct them to whatever person.
(29:40):
But I found a document, this like statement that they had written that it was a publicstatement that if anybody calls about this article or asking questions about this, this is
the statement you gave.
And I don't remember exactly, I have a picture of it.
um But I just remember reading that and being like, this is ridiculous.
And then I just like had so much more psychological stress because I had this.
(30:01):
ah
expectation to, you know, be happy for the guests and provide that positive yoga feelexperience to them.
But then all this other shit is going on in the background.
And I was also diagnosed with bipolar around this time too.
So I had like my first manic episode, which I believe was caused by just the amount ofstress that I was under.
(30:28):
um
Cause that's definitely a trigger for me now that I know is like if I'm under too muchstress for too long, that can trigger one of these episodes.
And so I had a manic episode, ended up in a psychiatric hospital for a couple of weeks.
(30:48):
And then when I went back, the Swami who I was renting from, she was like, you can't liveat my house anymore.
So basically I had nowhere to live, so I had to move back in with my parents.
But I was still at the time, I was like, I still really like Yogaville.
So I was still working for them remotely.
And like they had started a BIPOC yoga teacher training program that was virtual.
(31:13):
And I was like, I really want to help out with this.
So I helped out with that too.
But then slowly started pulling back and then once...
That letter came out from Shanti Norris, the former secretary.
I was like, okay, yeah, there's no need for me to be a part of this organization anylonger.
(31:36):
And then I started talking to some of my friends there more about it and learned a lotmore about the child abuse that went on there.
And that was what like really was like, okay, yeah, I'm definitely there's no need for meto be a part of an organization where they're molesting children.
And you know, one of the things that stands out to me is the secrecy, right?
(31:58):
The secrecy is just always, always bad.
you know, in these really real cults that we know are cults, we can identify there'salways some sort of form of weaponized, I call it weaponized lying, or justified lying,
sorry, weaponized secrecy, justified lying.
(32:19):
You know, but there's always some reason we're lying to the outside.
outside world, right?
Or we don't call it lying, right?
We call it deceivers yet true.
The Mormons do straight call it lying for the Lord.
Jehovah's Witnesses call it transcendental trickery.
That one's my favorite.
You know, but it's, you know, we polish it up in this way, this way.
(32:40):
It's not, you don't get it, blah, blah, blah.
But like, you know, I think...
it's one of these things we can mark as a red flag once we start to understand it becauselike adults in an organization can understand or you know, like adults that are not in an
organization can understand something if it's validly explained to them.
(33:00):
And the, but once you find out that like the organization is lying to you, right?
This sort of weaponized secrecy against you, member that they're.
making feel like is actually part of this team.
I think that can be a really big sort of like crack in the brainwashing or, you know,expansion in the crack of the brainwashing sounds like you had already had the crack.
(33:29):
Because people are like, well, I'm, you know, I could understand lying to outsiders,right?
But like, I'm on the team.
Why are why are you lying to me?
um And then one more thing just from what you shared that I wanted to point out to peopleis like Sometimes you leave the cult in stages Sometimes you go bounce to a place where
(33:53):
you're physically safe, but you're still mentally there working for them uh You know, butthat doesn't mean you're not like on your way out
You know, or like, I never want people to feel too apologetic about that part because itwas like you were doing what you needed to do to be safe to then like mentally come out of
(34:15):
it as well.
Yeah, when you were talking about the lying part, I was reminded Swami Satchidananda wouldsay, yoga is perfection in action, which I don't really think that's what yoga means, but
he said yoga is perfection in action and a lie can be perfect if it helps someone andhurts no one.
(34:39):
So they like, he's, you know, laying that groundwork there for, it's a, he doesn't saylike when it's time, like,
doesn't give like, you should lie about the fact that I'm having sex with people, but justlike, he was very subtle with a lot of the things he said.
something that we even see in government, right?
(34:59):
The justified lying.
A lot of times uh they will come out and say, you know, we're going to be the mosttransparent government that you've ever had.
Well, you know, yeah, you're talking a lot, but everything that's coming out of your mouthis not true.
It's a lie.
And you are engaging uh in misinformation and in propaganda and uh
(35:24):
I'm reminded Hannah Arndt, who was a philosopher who uh escaped the Holocaust and wrote alot about uh what happened in Nazi Germany.
She had this phrase, the banality of evil.
In other words, there's just ordinary people.
(35:44):
A lot of times we think that these groups are composed or made up of monsters and scarypeople.
But a lot of times it's just ordinary people that believe in the cause or have beenattracted to the group for a variety of reasons.
And then these people, these good ordinary people are manipulated and they are treated aspawns to help spread the message.
(36:13):
And a lot of times, uh as in your case, until you started doing this investigation andcoming across these documents,
Um, you believed that you were sharing helpful information and, and, know, that's, um,that, that had to be, that had to be a challenging for you as well.
know for me and leaving the group that I was a part of, for so long, uh, part of, uh, theunraveling for me.
(36:42):
And it happened in stages as well.
Um, for me, but the part of the unraveling was that.
all of a sudden I'm discovering all of this information that no one had ever shared withme.
I had never heard a conversation about it.
I had never heard anybody talk about it.
And then when I began to ask questions, they started to shut that down.
(37:07):
And so I imagine that was something you went through as well.
Yeah, I think it felt more like just my brain couldn't handle all the contradictions andit was just so confusing on top of like experiencing bipolar symptoms that I hadn't
experienced before.
(37:28):
So it wasn't just one thing.
was...
I think it was most, it was really a big part of it was hearing stories from my friendswho grew up there and all the hell they went through as children.
And cause like the things I heard before, this Catherine Chang, was like, okay, thishappened back in the nineties.
(37:54):
I don't know this person.
They're not here anymore.
So I guess they must've divorced this person they married and Swami Satya Dananda died andthese, people.
I didn't know any of these women's names, seeing that these are real people who are stillimpacted by this, and then this woman writing this letter, like, this is a real person.
(38:19):
It's not just uh some words that I'm reading on a piece of paper.
Yeah.
And that's when it brings it home, right?
The idea that oh this is doing real harm.
This is perpetuating harm and it's inflicting itself on real people.
So when you left and you returned to your parents, were there people that reached out toyou?
(38:43):
Did they want you to return?
Did they demand that you uh sign a release form or a non-disclosure form?
How did all of that?
work out in your experience.
No, they didn't have me sign anything.
I had, ah like I was dating someone there at the time who still lives there.
(39:04):
So like, would still talk to him, but he was like the only, the really only, only personthat I'd stayed in contact with that was still there.
Cause people come through there all the time, like either on the weekends or they'll comefor a month or a week or something.
And so I've met a lot of friends that came through there that I would stay in contactwith, but in terms of people who lived there.
(39:25):
there was only that, really that one person that I stayed in contact with and I was stillworking remotely.
So I guess my boss, I stayed in contact with her for a while just via email.
um But yeah.
And where do you find yourself today?
What kinds of things are you doing to make people aware of what's happening in this group?
(39:50):
if people wanted to get in touch with you or find you, how would they do that?
Yes, I have a podcast called Surviving Satchitananda, the dark secrets of an internationalyoga movement.
Hopefully we can have a link in there because it's hard for people to spell Satchitananda.
And yeah, it's hard to say too.
(40:12):
I was writing some stuff on Medium.
I'm writing now for a local newspaper about my experience there.
So for my podcast, I'm interviewing people who
Right now, people who used to live at YogaVille or were deeply involved in YogaVille andum cult experts as well.
(40:35):
So far, it's just been people who used to live there finding out more information aboutthis.
I'm learning too.
As I interview people, I definitely don't know everything yet.
And uh I'm trying really hard to make sure that it's...
I'm not just like completely demonizing the organization because everybody that comes inis...
(40:56):
like talks about how many benefits that they also had, as well as the horrible things thathappened there.
So I'm trying to make sure it's a more balanced approach, but still honest about what'sreally going on there.
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and we will definitely link to your podcastand to what you're doing.
(41:20):
If there was one thing that you want people to take away from your experience or ifsomeone is going through something similar to what you experienced and you had the
opportunity to help them, to speak to them, what would you say?
Hmm
I would say trust your intuition.
If you're asking a lot of questions and something doesn't feel right, don't let people uhconvince you otherwise.
(41:44):
You know, and something else, Brianna, from what you're saying that like nuancedconversations about our experiences are not bad.
You know, and it's it's very common thing for cult survivors to feel like they have to beso careful about how they talk about the experience, because they want to make sure not to
like demonize it, as you said, right.
(42:06):
But like,
it, you know, we can talk about our negative experiences and talk about our positiveexperiences.
People sometimes will try to push me into a corner with this with the army.
I'm like, well, do you have any positives that you got out of it?
And I'm like, sure, you know, got got positives out of the cult, too.
And we can have, you know, those conversations and it doesn't take away from the negativesand, you know, vice versa.
(42:35):
And I just want to say, like, I think what you're doing is
work building this narrative and this space to like, hold the nuanced conversations.
It doesn't have to be either or and like, for the rest of your life, you're going to be ayoga instructor that knows all of this stuff and has all of these skills that you got,
(42:56):
right?
And you don't have to feel that like, you have to walk away from absolutely everythingthat you gained, just in order to talk about the negatives of your experience.
So like, thanks for being a leader in this space because so many more people need to hearabout this yoga stuff also.
And the nuanced story is uh persuasive as well, right?
(43:19):
If you came out of the gate and just talked about all of the bad things, immediatelyyou're going to be dismissed by a lot of people as uh a disgruntled employee or a bidder.
And I know that I went through this experience as well, and I've written about itextensively.
In fact, I've got a forthcoming book about it, about my experiences and what I did.
(43:41):
tried to focus.
on the good and the bad, that nuanced experience as Daniela describes it, because when youdo so, people that are still involved with the group, oh they are more likely to listen to
you.
uh Instead, if you came out with guns blazing, so to speak, that they would immediatelyshut you down.
(44:08):
I feel like that guns blazing approach to though, for the record, I think that's valid.
Like there's people who have had some really horrible experiences at Yogaville who want tocome on, but their experience was so bad that it's really hard for them to talk about.
And I hope they do one day, you know, decide to go on if they're comfortable.
Um, so we probably are going to have some stories that are overwhelmingly negative, but,um, for now the people that are coming on.
(44:34):
have positive things to say too, and that's okay too.
Brianna, thank you so much for joining us.
And again, we will put oh all of your information in the show notes.
And uh hopefully as you continue to develop your podcast and your story continues to getout there, we'll hear from you again in the future.
(44:54):
So thank you for being on our program.
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Absolutely.
And, Daniela, um we've got all kinds of things happening with you and people need tofollow you.
They need to follow you.
The Knitting Cult Mama.
They need to read the book Uncultured.
They need to subscribe, to like, and to share, and all of that good stuff that's happeningwith you.
(45:18):
Yeah, and if you're interested in following along with chapters of Culting of Americas,they get done now.
They're going to start being posted on the Patreon.
So come check that out.
All of the links for everything will be in the show notes.
And thanks so much to everybody for listening to another episode of our show tonight.
(45:40):
Yeah, and we've got about five minutes left.
So Haley, our producer, does a tremendous job.
And I appreciate everything that they do.
So Haley, if you don't mind, would you come back on camera for just a moment?
I hope she's there.
I hope she's listening.
Good, good.
So, Haley, I'm perusing TikTok today and I see your face.
(46:06):
And so we need to tell everybody about what you're doing on your platform as well.
Sorry, I know this is sort of putting you on the spot here.
Ha ha ha ha ha
as one does.
Well, we'll put it in the show notes.
We'll put it in the show notes so people can find you and subscribe because you do atremendous job and you're one of, uh I think people need to hear more from you.
(46:27):
You do a tremendous job producing this podcast and we're very appreciative of everythingthat you do.
And thank all of you for listening and tuning in, subscribing, sharing, and leaving areview that helps with the magic of the algorithm to get the information out there.
So for Daniela, the Knitting Cult Lady, I'm Scott Lloyd, and we'll see you on the nextepisode of Cults and the Culting of America.
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