May 13, 2025 • 56 mins
In this conversation, Daniella and Kasi explore the cult-like aspects of Starbucks, discussing Kasi's personal journey from barista to store manager and the emotional and psychological dynamics at play within the corporate structure. They delve into themes of recruitment, vulnerability, the illusion of family, leadership programs, and the impact of corporate culture on mental health. The discussion highlights the emotional manipulation and control exerted by organizations, drawing parallels to cult behavior and the sacrifices individuals make for their jobs.
Daniella's Links:
You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:25):
Hi everybody and welcome back to Cults and the Culting of America.
As you can tell from my not booming radio voice, Scott is not here tonight.
um But we are going to have a, think super fun conversation with our guests tonight who'shere to talk about the cultiness of Starbucks.
(00:50):
And I have to say, I lived in Seattle, I did the entrepreneur scene.
Now I live in a development that has both a Starbucks and a Whole Foods.
So we got like all that cultiness up in here.
Casey, tell us about yourself.
And also please tell us how to pronounce your last name.
Okay, so yeah, my last name is Saganaro.
(01:14):
I feel like when you put your hands up like this, it kind of helps.
But yeah, it's Italian.
But a little bit about me.
I mean...
I'm not gonna get into any of the deep stuff yet, but basically I grew up in a small town.
First year of college, I went to work at Starbucks as a barista and that kind of took meon a whirlwind trip to store manager.
(01:45):
That was about eight years of my life.
I then...
Gone from Starbucks since 2021.
I have a son now.
have, I don't know, I feel like just a full, I don't know, my life was Starbucks for abouteight years.
So now, yeah, I am in a completely different field, speech therapy, actually.
(02:10):
And yeah, have my son and I'm pretty content.
That's me.
I read and I crochet.
I don't knit.
Lovely, I mean, we love all of the fiber arts on here.
You know, it's interesting how like, carefully you were putting that of like, you know, ittook me on this whirlwind trip and now, and like, I could tell there's like a Starbucks
(02:33):
time or maybe like a Starbucks Casey and then an after Starbucks Casey.
I definitely think that is the case.
I think it was necessary to get me to where I am today.
But yeah, I mean, it was pretty much my entire life, my entire young adult life, really.
So for my formative years.
(02:54):
um And yeah, it took me a while to get here.
wanted to ask you about was your youth, right?
So we know with cults, like they want you young.
Another thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is the military.
They want you young, they're out recruiting in high schools.
(03:14):
And corporations also want to get you when you're young.
What was it like for you?
Like, how did you get recruited?
What was it like?
like are you working around a bunch of other young people?
Seems like it could be a lot of fun.
absolutely.
um So I was actually married once before to a guy who was in the military.
(03:37):
that's a whole other topic.
But that took me to North Dakota where this was in 2013.
So there was a big oil boom.
All of the um service jobs were, they were in such high demand that they were payingreally well.
So I kind of had my pick.
And so when I went in and interviewed at different places, I remember very specifically atStarbucks, like here's a price difference here.
(04:06):
So like I could have gone to work at Target for 15 an hour in 2013.
Starbucks was $10 an hour.
But I remember seeing the baristas and just like their high energy, them laughing behindthe bar, and it just seemed like a very fun environment.
And so
the manager there who I adored.
(04:27):
um She offered me the job on the spot and I took it because I thought this is going to beso much more fun than working at Target.
So yeah, there's definitely an element of fun.
I was 18.
And yeah, I don't want to like totally dominate because I could just keep going.
(04:48):
It's just so, it's so interesting.
So first of all, my family was in the Texas part of that oil boom.
ah So, know, Texas and North Dakota both have had those big booms.
ah But here you are, you're a military spouse, right?
You're 18 years old.
You've just been moved to a completely new place, right?
(05:10):
And like, none of this has to be sinister, but this is exactly when a cult gets you,right?
and you're vulnerable, right?
It looks like fun.
And then that's the other thing.
One of the things I tell college students now is like, if a group is trying to recruit youand everybody is pretty and bouncy and shiny and happy, run away, right?
(05:35):
Because that's appearance and attitude control.
um
And I worked at Chick-fil-A for my first job out of the cult.
So like, you will smile, you will say my pleasure in response to thank you, know, so muchof this, almost like putting on your like happy Mormon face and like being a good
(05:57):
salesperson.
guess to that note because you said it was your first job out of you know and it was itwas Colty.
I will say you know part of it was you know I came from a low-income background.
I've been working since I was 14 like I bus tables, I cooked in kitchens usually witholder women and so to see people who were my age and who looked like they were having fun
(06:23):
it was just very it drew me in.
for sure.
And then there was a moment, think I was only at that location in North Dakota, I thinkfor, what have been like September of 2013 to May of 2014, so not even a full year.
(06:44):
uh And I remember the store manager looking at me and saying, like, you should just quitgoing to college and become a store manager.
And this is me, barista 18.
first year in college, just like, is that even coming from?
um So I feel like they hit you with that very early on, with this is something you can doand you should just stick with us.
(07:06):
Yeah, that's interesting because I thought they were one of the companies that like paidfor people to go to school.
Is that, do I not have that right?
So they started that program in fall of 2014.
um So I actually, I used that program.
I wound up moving back home to, well kind of back home.
(07:27):
I moved back to the south um and I was going to a community college when I moved home andthen they came out with that program which is the SCAP program.
So I hopped on that bandwagon.
Also, they really had their roots, their claws stuck in.
Yeah.
And it's funny because so much of that sounds similar to the military, right?
(07:49):
Or it's like they will, one, they will help you pay for the education, but two, they willkeep you busy enough so that you can't necessarily use it all the time.
And then when they do, you know, identify in you someone who has like this leadershipgene, you know, that turns into a whole nother like cult experience.
(08:13):
And
You know, it's interesting to me, because you keep using this language of like being drawnin or going in.
And you already mentioned my favorite work phrase, we're a family.
uh So we need to talk about all that.
like identifying someone who is clearly like high intelligence, high potential, right,willing to kind of do whatever it takes.
(08:38):
cults, and again, we're not calling Starbucks a cult here, we're just making parallels,right?
But like high control, high demand groups, they love a high achiever, right?
And it's this stereotype that cults go after like, people that are not that intelligent,or people that just need money, but like, no, you give them a like smart, high achiever
(09:04):
from a hard background, and like,
nobody's gonna work harder than that, right?
And I tell you, kid, like cult kid to military pipeline is so strong.
And it's just like, you you said it, like you've been working since you were 14, likeyou're gonna get in there and you're gonna work hard.
You're clearly a person who's like easy to interface with.
(09:26):
And cults identify that, you know, organizations identify that quickly and they'll startfunneling.
like attention and resources into you.
And then that feels really good too, right?
You're just a kind of 18 year old girl from nowhere and now you're getting people tellingyou like you have a future in this.
(09:47):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
um I mean, I remember, I've thought about this recently, actually, when I was promoted to,I think it was maybe ASM.
It's like my first salaried job.
um Like driving to work, and this is the other thing, I drove so far, I could have workedanywhere closer.
(10:10):
I drove 50 minutes one way.
um Just to get there, I make $10 an hour.
So I think about that now and I'm like, what on earth was I thinking?
But I really, I don't know, I was bought in.
um And I remember, well, I was just gonna say, I just remember like crying tears of joyone morning on the way to work.
(10:35):
Because I'm just like, thank goodness I have gotten out of this, like really this poverty.
um that I was living in and I felt like that was all Starbucks and all of the leaders thathad given me the opportunity.
So there was that kind of feeling of gratitude that played into why I put so much effortin.
(10:57):
um But yeah.
Now we're back in a minute.
effort, downplays your own effort a little bit though, right?
And that's something we see a lot too.
What I was gonna say earlier when you said, you know, it felt like a family or it feltlike losing a family, right?
For me, this is always a red flag because families.
(11:22):
I always say anything that calls itself your family wants to overwork you, underpay you,and expect you to put up with more BS than you would otherwise.
And you already just took the job at a significantly lower salary.
And many people do this.
And this is why I think things like mission-focused jobs, which I put...
(11:48):
entrepreneurship and startups and all of these companies that wanna talk about theirmission, right?
It's not just not for profit companies anymore.
All of them, it's like easy to get people to take less money and be more enthusiasticabout what you're doing.
(12:08):
And in fact, I was just writing this chapter in the book, there was a study that showedthat like 40 % of millennials say they would take lower pay.
for like a job that they cared about.
I could see that.
mean, I will say coming from...
oh
Coming from that world, that was something that I thought about when I tried to beintentional about what I wanted to do next was, even if I have to take a cut in pay to,
(12:40):
this is the caveat though, was to have better work-life balance.
I will do that.
I'll do that in a heartbeat.
um I think places like Starbucks and other corporations that I have.
worked for in the interim um is that they tried to really play up their benefits.
(13:02):
play up, there's um a specific company that's coming to mind right now, but leadershipprograms, you know, or these programs that'll really quickly promote you through the
ranks.
um Those sorts of things are red flags to me now, because I'm like, I already know howthis is going to play out.
(13:22):
Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about that?
Like what's the difference between what they're telling the public, right?
When you say that, you're speaking my language, because I'm like, yeah, the military doesthat all the time, right?
Like what the words they say to the public and the actual experience that soldiers orveterans have can be very, very different.
(13:43):
Right.
You know, I don't know that Starbucks has um what they call a leadership program at thispoint or that they ever did have something explicitly like that.
There was a different corporation that I worked for after Starbucks that had a leadershipprogram.
um And that was specifically geared towards people who had bachelor's degrees and werewilling to come in and just, I mean, they didn't have to have any kind of background with
(14:11):
them.
just willing to come in and actually they sent them on a retreat um to corporate um for aweek and then they kind of had to perform for leadership when they came in periodically
and that was the process of moving up through the ranks.
(14:31):
This was a completely different company though.
um I was only there for a short while before realizing that was not for me.
Um.
Starbucks I feel like is a little bit more
I'm trying to remember, because it's been years, it was 2021 that I left.
uh They did have these development pages.
Like there's a whole book, I think maybe called like a Starbucks success manual orsomething along that line.
(14:59):
But it lined out for every role from barista to district manager, what your role was, andthen what you could do to like go above and beyond to demonstrate leadership.
um And then there was like a development page that was right on the back.
So I mean, that was there, it was available.
(15:20):
Store managers definitely used it.
District managers definitely used it.
um But there was, I don't think they were telling that to the public necessarily.
I think it was once they had kind of brought you in, um they started, what is the wordthey used?
Building a pipeline of talent was what was used.
(15:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about these programs, these leadershipprograms.
I mean, this is kind of what I started out thinking that I wanted to do is get, you know,master's or PhD in organizational psychology and go be part of this leadership
development.
But I mean, I agree with what you're saying that like it.
(16:05):
They they always present it.
as something that is for you, the individual.
But it seems like once you get past the curtain, it's always about helping theorganization.
It's about how they can prepare you to be this good employee for the organization.
Which is not even to say like, that's bad.
(16:27):
Of course they should be trying to do good things for the organization.
It's just.
I always feel like there's a little bit of a bait and switch in how this is presented.
I absolutely, I'm not sure that I would, I'm trying to think of like a bait and switchnecessarily, but.
I mean, yeah, you could do everything on that piece of paper that says go above and beyondand demonstrate this leadership and then maybe still not get a promotion, right?
(16:56):
Because at the end of the day, it's an organization that only has so many openings andmaybe someone's only willing to move wherever.
um
But one of the things that was alarming to me was towards the end of my time there, storemanagers had to get on a recruiting call.
(17:18):
I think, I believe it was once a month and we had to keep track in an Excel spreadsheet.
The people that we on our teams that we thought could fill that next role.
It's that pipeline.
uh Which I think in and of itself is not alarming, but
We had to one by one uh present to a group, like a panel of store managers that were inour district, people that we wanted to promote and tell a story basically about why they
(17:49):
were meeting these expectations or they demonstrated these qualities that were outlined inthis success manual.
And so the language had to be very specific.
I remember
Having such high anxiety because I just knew as soon as you say the wrong thing thedistrict manager would catch it and say well, that's the case if that's the word you're
(18:13):
gonna use they're not ready you need to go back and uh re-evaluate ah but having havingpeers who Really had not ever met these workers had no experience with the dynamics of
different stores Weighing in
essentially I'm from one's career and their future to me was unnerving.
(18:36):
There was no sense of trust in uh our judgment.
Like it had to go through this process and this group judgment and that to me wasnerve-racking.
Yeah, just everything you said makes me think about the military promotion process.
I mean, it literally is you're writing like just these very, very careful evaluations andthat, you know, it's that really specific language that always gives kind of closed
(19:08):
system, right?
Closed off group.
Like, why do you have your own language that you have to describe things in?
that's not good enough for regular description, right?
And one of the things I noticed in these large tech startups, I'm gonna lump Starbucks inthere with the Microsofts and the Googles and just like all the fun West Coast stuff.
(19:38):
And it's like one of the things is like,
They give you so many benefits, but it's all at their stores and on their campuses.
And then there's a reading list that they want you to be reading for your, you know,professional development.
And then everyone's reading the same things and everyone's spending all their timetogether.
And all of a sudden, it's like you said earlier, like it was like your whole life wasStarbucks.
(20:03):
What is the, it's like an echo chamber.
That is what I would most closely describe it as.
In the note of them reading the same things and it's interesting because Howard Schultz,he frequently, when he was CEO of course, would
(20:28):
post letters about current events.
Not just our business, what was relevant to us, but things in just the world and hisperspective on it, those things would get posted to like a hub basically.
those would get printed and posted.
if the partners, right, they're not employees, they're partners, we have a specific wordfor it.
(20:53):
um
But if they weren't logging in and reading that material, well, then the store managerswould post it because they wanted it to be read.
We wanted to read all the same stuff.
I think that kind of evolved into weekly updates, which had kind of similar things.
During certain periods, we would get actually like autobiographies from certain peoplethat I guess Starbucks wanted a partnership with.
(21:22):
Cause there were, there were a number of books that were
mailed to stores too for us to read.
Onward by Howard Schultz being...
we have copies in the back, yeah.
So that, you know, that's a very interesting topic.
It's just like the deification of the leader, right?
And I know from being in the entrepreneurship space in Seattle that Howard Schultz is verymuch worshiped as this brilliant man who did this brilliant thing and made billions of
(21:53):
dollars, right?
Like the thing everybody wants to do doesn't mean his view on politics is relevant to theemployees at the company.
Right?
Like it's very like when it's a college that has the name, you know, when it is the, oh,what am I trying to say here?
(22:15):
Just like when employees are expected to know the founding story and like mythology of theorganization, that's a big red flag for me.
Like why did I need to know the story of Adam Newman and Miguel meeting in an elevator tofound WeWork, like to have an office there?
(22:37):
You know, like.
um
interesting because I've never thought of it that way but that's absolutely what Onwardwas and it was I remember it being gifted to me.
um We had again to go through this process of promotions that initial barista to shiftsupervisor and then ASM.
(22:58):
um We had this program called Coffee Master which I think they did away with and then theybrought back but
um That was something that they pushed me to do to prove or demonstrate, you know,leadership skills, demonstrate commitment to the company and the coffee that was produced
(23:20):
to the origin story, the farmers that are in, you know, Africa or in the South Americathat are farming and roasting these beans.
Like we had to go through this program where we learned all about that.
There's a book.
And then
lead coffee tastings with peers, with customers, and share that information.
(23:43):
And when I went through the certification process, which was essentially just a leader whowatched me do this, uh I was gifted the book onward.
And of course I read it, but absolutely that's Howard Schultz's really dark origin story.
uh
And you know, think reading lists are so interesting to me, right?
(24:05):
Like to me, there's like a four tier question about the organization.
Like, do they have a recommended reading list?
Yes or no?
First question, right?
If no, this doesn't apply to you.
If yes, like boom, that's already one level of influence, right?
Just right there, the fact that you know the guy at the top wants you to be reading thesebooks.
(24:29):
Right?
Like that's gonna influence what you do.
You're gonna have more, and then it's gonna be more likely that someone else at Starbucksis reading that book too.
So then you're gonna have someone to discuss that with.
And then, blah, zee, blah, zee, blah, right?
It's great for the organization.
ah Then my next level is, you expected to be reading something on that reading list at anygiven time?
(24:55):
That's, no, actually the military is one further.
you know, and you look like you're kind of nodding your head.
And I would imagine in many of these organizations in these leadership programs, likeyou're expected to be doing some of these readings that your senior leadership has
recommended.
And then
it's not explicit expectation, it's that implicit undertone, you don't know this while itwas in this book.
(25:23):
But yeah.
Exactly.
That was all over Microsoft campus when I worked there for sure.
And it was all the books that were featured in the bookstore.
um And then there's a third level, which is, you kind of socially censured for readingbooks that aren't on those lists?
And that's where I put the army.
(25:43):
Like, you get caught reading fiction in uniform and like people are gonna have somethingto say about it.
literally when Kindles came out, it changed my life.
Because I'm like, yay, no one can tell what I'm reading anymore.
You simply cannot be a young woman officer sitting there reading Harry Potter, waiting togo in for your medical appointment.
(26:06):
You're expected to be reading something serious and about military history.
um And it does absolutely influence.
And then of course, the final thing is, your organization ban certain books?
And at this point, bad news bears.
But it's just like little things like this that people don't think about.
(26:29):
And when I got to Microsoft after leaving the military, was like, I'm walking around andpeople have Satya Nadella quotes on their walls.
And I was like, okay, it's culty.
It's culty.
Yeah, these are the things that light.
you know, I've gone to one college, University of Texas at Dallas, no clue who foundedthat or why.
(26:53):
And I got a great education from there.
And then I went to that school founded by John Harvard and got an education there.
like, obviously one, right, is like deifying this leader, making them godlike.
You know, this is, you know, again, I think I jokingly have called.
(27:14):
my experience cult-like um pretty pretty soon after I had left.
But just thinking about it in this light is very illuminating.
It has made me look back on certain experiences and just really question where was my headat?
Like why didn't I see this in the moment?
(27:37):
But I think that just goes back to that original piece of being vulnerable and being ah
made to feel this gratitude and this, uh you know, almost like I'm trying to think what itis that you had said about not really, ah basically giving yourself credit for the work
(28:00):
that you were doing, right?
Like you feel like you're not doing enough for these people who have given you thisopportunity.
um And so,
you're working for them cheaper and probably harder than you would otherwise.
And yet you're feeling like only gratitude to them.
Right.
(28:20):
And that was why I was like, oh, red flag, right?
Like you're not giving yourself enough credit for being the one that did all of this work.
And one of the things that when you're talking about this that I really started to see inentrepreneurship world was like, they're keeping you, when you're joking that it's a cult
(28:42):
amongst yourself, right?
When you're making that joke, or when you say your experience was cult-like, What thatmeans is they kept you so busy and so emotionally amped up all the time that
you just had no time for anything else, but you just felt super passionate about yourmission.
(29:07):
And like, it's so creepy to me when people say, you have a good cult, right?
But that's kind of what people are saying when they're like, you know, AA makes thesejokes, lots of nonprofits make these jokes, Starbucks, I have heard them make these jokes,
right?
That like, it's like a cult and all of these big.
(29:27):
conglomerates do it when they go do their week retreats that you mentioned that are justlike these cult induction ceremonies.
And again, it's not like harmful, harmful red, red line, right?
But I completely understand what you're saying when you're saying like you felt like yourexperience was cult-like.
(29:50):
And then especially,
if you're like looking more into high demand groups and you're like nodding, you know.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'm right there with you.
m
is like one of the things that I was super passionate about was like understanding, firstof all, individual trauma and that we all pretty much need like therapy and recovery from
(30:17):
that, right?
And then I went and studied group behavior and I'm like, so people have all of thisorganizational trauma, right?
And then it's just never acknowledged.
And then you're just supposed to like go,
go back and do better, right?
And so this is why I think that, you know, we're not saying Starbucks is the same asChildren of God, religious sex cult, which I wrote this book about, and y'all can get
(30:45):
signed copies attached, you know?
But it's like, you know, part of the reason that I wrote a book comparing my experience inthis horrible pedophile sex cult to my experience in the military is because people come
through these things that are cult-like.
your AA's, your super intense organizations, your nonprofits, teaching, nursing, Medicalschool, law school, and they don't understand why they feel like they have just been like
(31:16):
hazed and tortured and love bombed and worked to death and then cut off from their familywhen they left.
And it can be very overwhelming.
I think Two things that just stood out to me that you said a little bit of the backtrackBut you said they keep you so busy and emotionally amped up and then you just use the word
(31:38):
love bomb 1000 % there, you know there towards the end I believe this is like 2019 Igraduated from the scat program and in that process I got to meet
some leaders, I don't even remember what she would have been called, like RVP or somethinglike that.
(32:02):
But we got to meet with a group of SCAP scholars from across the country there in Arizona,and they had like a dinner for us, they had uh some sort of like, not really a conference,
but it was like an open forum for all of the scholars.
And so everyone came up and they told these,
(32:23):
emotional stories about their backgrounds and how they wouldn't have afforded collegeotherwise and you know people who I remember one woman talking about how Starbucks saved
her from her alcohol addiction and um I just I mean I remember leaving that night andtears hugging people you know it was very emotional and
(32:46):
back to what you said about not giving ourselves credit for what we do.
I left that graduation feeling so grateful for Starbucks and never once thought about theyears of hard work and sacrifice that it took me to get that diploma.
I was just so thankful for that company.
And my mom will say that too, because my mom was there.
(33:07):
And so she always is like, you know, I don't know why you have this bad taste in yourmouth because they did all these great things for you.
um But there's
There's the other side to that too.
Yeah, but does anyone listen when you talk about why you have the bad taste in your mouth,right?
Because, so first of all, that's called emotional evocation, right?
(33:31):
And I used to describe like, cults always have some sort of ceremony where you're requiredto like lay yourself open to the group and just like sort of let them use you and your
emotions and all of this.
um
And you do, I call it hacking vulnerability, right?
Because you're supposed to feel that way with people when you've gotten to know them andyou've put in the time and you've like gotten to this deep level, right?
(34:01):
Sharing deep hard things about yourself with another person does make you feel connected.
Oh, what just happened?
people, you know, that um you're never really going to see again, right?
Because they're from across the country.
You did a distance program.
And it's interesting that you say that because I am such an introvert really at heart.
(34:24):
And so I remember that day, like feeling compelled to get up there and tell my own story.
Like I had a microphone in hand in front of 300 people.
not Casey.
That was definitely an emotional response.
yeah, there I mean there was that in 2019.
I guess I'll get I'll finish what I was saying but I was at that time even feeling alittle disenchanted with the story I had been told because I had graduated, I had applied
(34:55):
for a district manager position.
I've been working as a store manager for I think five years at that point.
um And so I was told if you do all these things on this piece of paper You'll you know goup to this next level and I was turned down for the position Was not communicated with
about it really So I was disenchanted and then really what kept me One of my mentors theresaid, know stay for a year if you still feel
(35:29):
Like it's not a good fit after a year then leave.
ah It was two years before I left.
But late 2019, so I graduated in May.
In the fall, we had a leadership conference where all the store managers were flown out toChicago on Starbucks' dime.
we had, I mean, this is store managers from across the country.
(35:52):
So I want to say it was like close to 10,000 of us.
We were in the Chicago Bulls Stadium.
um It was a huge like, what is it?
A booze of pep rally basically for Starbucks.
um All sorts of big names were out.
We have John Legend come play live music, talk about how he got his start becauseStarbucks sold his CDs.
(36:17):
You know, we were made to feel this specific way and specifically at that conference andthis is what kept me.
oh
longer than that year was Howard Schultz had stepped down um again and ah the new CEO hadcome up on stage and said that Howard had met with him in the original Pike Place store
(36:44):
there in Seattle that they were sitting on the floor talking about the early days and whatthey had gone through together and that Howard all of a sudden looked over at him and
handed him the key.
to that Starbucks store and said, I'm trusting you with this.
I'm stepping away, I'm trusting you with this.
And so at that moment, all of the district managers, they come out with like a littlebaggie and they start handing out copies of that key to all of the store managers.
(37:13):
And so he said, and I'm trusting you with your stores.
And so that was like a very, one, was definitely emotional, but I think it became like,
very symbolic.
um I had a friend who was put on a performance improvement plan and the district managersaid, give me your key back from the leadership conference because I no longer trust you
(37:43):
with running the store.
And so it was a very odd time.
Somehow I walked away from that conference feeling better about
Starbucks, but now looking back I I just think it uh
(38:07):
So, right, like this random item, a key, right?
And it wasn't actually the key to their stores, right?
It was just a random key that was handed to each person that now has all of this symbolismand shockingly, cults use the key imagery a lot.
um A lot, a lot, a lot.
(38:29):
But it's this like additional sort of
way to control you through this internalized significance that is ethereal and hard toexplain to somebody who wasn't there, to somebody who didn't experience that emotion.
um It may surprise you not at all to know that I'm ending my book about cults describingthe Iris tour concert and how that could be like the perfect setting to make you
(39:02):
open, right?
That's what this conference does.
That's what these conferences do for these huge companies, right?
They spend millions of dollars on this because it makes you more open when you're chantingwith other people, when you're singing with other people, when you're sharing yourself
with other people, when you're showing emotion, laughing or crying with other people,right?
(39:26):
All of these things make you feel more connected.
and make you more open to suggestion, right?
When we chant in groups, it makes us more susceptible to suggestion.
And your churches know that, and your schools know that, and your companies know that.
um
(39:46):
You know, and I always say like when people wonder why they have these great amazingconferences and then they don't go actually get anything done afterwards.
It's because like your conference, that's what it's for.
It's for motivation.
It's for amping you up.
It's for having these emotional experiences and connections.
But if you don't go home and have business meetings where you actually put that stuff intopractice, then it doesn't matter what you say and it doesn't matter how good you make
(40:10):
people feel.
um
You know, you can tell your employees all day, it's about you, it's about you, you're theones that put us here, right?
We trust you, all this stuff.
But like, if you don't treat them at work, like you trust them and like they're the onesthat put you here, then it doesn't matter what you say.
Absolutely, I think uh I've never thought about it in that way the conferences, you knowfor me just intuitively I felt Kind of icky about it, right because I'm not I was that
(40:42):
middleman of I've got to bring all of this down.
I've got to trickle it all down in a way that is uh
you know, that is okay that these people will accept below me, right?
Because they're not getting the salary job.
They're not getting these benefits.
not, you know, they're making $10 an hour.
um And so I felt icky because we would, we went, we saw John Legend.
(41:07):
I'm just like, how much did that one show cost?
How much did busing us around cost these meals, um the flights themselves?
And so why could we not?
pay our employees more, that would have made my life easier, personally.
um But instead, they spent all of this money to, like you said, get this emotionalresponse.
(41:33):
I mean, it worked for me, right?
I stayed longer than I intended to.
So honestly, why this conversation is so good is because I think this is kind of thecapitalist problem, right?
Like we've all swallowed this story sold to us by the tech bros and you know, the godsthat rose out of the apocalypse of the intelligence era and
(41:58):
It's like, it's all about motivating, right?
It's all about culture and motivating your people.
But I really think that if an organization has to motivate you, then you're not gettingwhat you need from that, right?
Because if you're getting what you need from that organization, however you frame that,then you don't have to be externally motivated.
(42:25):
Right, but we have in the cult of capitalism, right, asked for the consistentself-sacrifice of our members, which is step four on my cult list all the time, always
sacrificing, always good for the group, always what the company needs, never what's goodfor the individuals, even though they promise it's gonna trickle down, but we all know
(42:46):
that's silly.
And then it's like, how do you motivate people?
uh And this, mean, honestly, in the end was why I didn't go become
practicing organizational psychologists at these big companies.
It's because I see these retreats and I'm like, no, these are cult tactics.
Like say good, bad, indifferent, whatever you want.
These are cult tactics and it worked, right?
(43:10):
They kept you there for an extra year or two.
US military does the same thing in other ways, you know?
And another one we see a lot is being like, well,
don't judge it based off this one store, right?
You gotta go over there, you gotta go, but like, they do these big meetings because theywork to get you amped up and to get you with that feeling that it's so amazing and I owe
(43:40):
them so much and I'm just gonna push aside all these little feelings like why did you hireJohn Legend instead of just paying all of the people more?
Yes, 1000%.
I'm just nodding because I'm like, yes, please just pay them.
I mean, the self-sacrificing aspect of it.
(44:00):
I mean, I do think that is more than just Starbucks.
That's absolutely just this hustle culture, which I hate personally.
I think maybe hopefully COVID.
Um, helped some of us reassess that I know it helped me, um, because it's just not, Iremember, you know, cause of course my life, even though it felt like it was just
(44:24):
Starbucks, it wasn't, you know, I had all of these other things that were going on in thebackground and I just didn't have time to deal with.
gosh, I remember in the heat of the pandemic, I was asked to dual manage.
m
stores.
think it was like 72 employees that I was responsible for and a ton of sales.
(44:50):
And I remember scheduling therapy like Tuesdays on an evening where I knew I was going tobe able to do that and like deal with myself and my life.
And I finally gave it up because I just had to come in and work those shifts.
That was the expectation was you do it because Starbucks is doing all of this for you.
(45:15):
And ultimately, you know, I don't think it's any surprise that my mental health did notthrive that year.
Yeah, so what was that like?
What was kind of the crack for you?
We've got about seven more minutes.
(45:35):
Can you tell us like, what was the walk away point for you?
And then what was that like coming out of that high demand environment, like emerging fromthat?
emerging from that?
So I would say this is to my own, ah I guess the best way I can put it is that last year,again, all of these things I had not dealt with and then the highest pressure possible
(46:07):
from leadership, ah you know, in the midst of COVID where we're operating
under a complete different set of expectations.
I mean, there's a natural anxiety with that too.
Like we at the time didn't know, you know, if you contract COVID, what does that reallylook like?
(46:28):
um Is it life threatening for you?
We don't know.
We were terrified.
So my mental health definitely took a, ah I mean, it declined.
We joked about the crying corner at the Starbucks store.
um I said if it's a corner, it's a crying corner.
(46:50):
And I think it was very apparent to those who I was leading that I was not doing well andhow that surfaced really was self-sabotage.
um don't, there's not really a better way for me to put it.
I sabotaged myself really trying to protect my leader's image of me um in the midst of allof this stress.
(47:14):
did some things I really regret, honestly, um and wound up taking a mental health break.
I took a leave of absence and ultimately was gone for three, I believe it was about threemonths, and came back and it was terrible.
(47:36):
It was a terrible, terrible experience and I was three months pregnant.
um
just very toxic and...
Haley, I don't if you should edit this out.
I don't know how transparent I really need to be, because I don't want it to affect mycredibility.
But I ultimately was fired for violating a procedure for COVID.
(48:03):
But I think the way that it was even worded was
basically that I didn't fit a value system.
don't, you are not, what was it?
Transparent.
It was a value.
um
The COVID procedure was not why.
(48:24):
I was there.
that wasn't that wasn't what even was really on the paper it was You basically I can'ttrust you This was the same person who took the key um It was very much like that
Starbucks verbiage um
(48:46):
you took a mental health break, right?
And I think, I think this is very significant.
And as you were
uh telling your story, I was just like, this reminds me of what happened to me on the wayout of the army.
And it was not what they said it was that ended my career, right?
(49:07):
And trust and believe when you're trying to like tell that story, it's difficult becausewe do all make bad choices, right?
Like when your cult experience is blowing up, right?
When you are getting
to the high part of the high demand organization and you're maybe about to jump off,right?
(49:29):
Like we're messing up, we're not thinking straight and all these things are happening.
But at the end of the day, they didn't uphold their promises to you.
And this is what we see over and over again.
And this is what I felt with the military.
And this is, I think, the crack in the brainwashing for a lot of people.
(49:51):
It's that they will at some point see that the organization is always gonna look out forthe needs of the organization.
they, it's honestly, think sometimes worse in these organizations that tell you you're afamily and they love you and build up all of this feeling.
And then they're still gonna choose money and the organization at the end of the day.
(50:14):
And that will break your heart really fast.
Absolutely, I will say, you know, on the note of that, I think Starbucks, especiallytowards the end, really talked a lot about mental health and how important it was.
They paid for Headspace memberships for everyone to help support that.
There was an EAP program.
(50:37):
And I remember in the conversation right before I left for my leave of absence with myleader saying,
I've been wanting to take leave of absence, but I know there's a stigma and that I'm goingto be asked to step down if I do and so I haven't because I can't and Her response was
literally well, maybe you should step down and I said, you know again, I can't I'll figurethis out but wound up taking that leave of absence and I think You know that probably
(51:07):
played played a part in it.
I wasn't willing to
to step back, uh but I knew I needed time.
And it just makes me wonder.
It makes me concerned about these places that say they value their mental health, butstill carry the stigma around.
(51:33):
If you have good mental health, then you should be able to lead, you should be able toperform.
And that ultimately if you ask for help or you need help, then you're not capable ofperforming.
um
To me that's concerning because at the end of the day, everyone's just trying to make surethey can have a roof over their head and feed their families.
(51:54):
And then there are these companies out there that um they're telling a story, but it's notthe truth.
It's not reality, I guess.
you know, I think when these companies say, we care about your mental health, right, whatthey mean is, here, we'll pay some stuff, take care of yourself, make sure it doesn't
(52:17):
affect us, right?
Like, that's what they mean.
It's very similar to when people find out you're neurodivergent and they're like, no, youcan unmask around me.
And then they're like, wait, no, we didn't want that.
Right?
like, men say they like women without makeup, and then you show them actual pictures ofwomen without makeup, and they're like, oh, what?
You know?
(52:38):
um But this mental health thing, this also fits with like a lot of times for people, thecrack in the brainwashing is a medical emergency, and that can be mental or physical.
But I believe it's, see in that moment,
(52:58):
the truth kind of, right?
Like, you know, in like a gothic movie when the lightning flashes and you see thesilhouette and you're like, oh, they're always gonna ask me to sacrifice for the good of
the group, but they're not willing to sacrifice for me.
And that's one of the things I look for, by the way, now when an organization wants to saythey're a good organization, I'm like, point to where you sacrifice.
(53:22):
When there's a choice to make between the group and the individual,
Show me where you sometimes choose the individual.
It doesn't have to be always, but it does have to be sometimes.
Otherwise, you're just taking from people.
You're just a vampire at this point.
Absolutely.
I said earlier, I felt like I had left a family and I think I did kind of mourn a littlebit.
(53:49):
But I think over time and given some space, I realized that what I was mourning was reallymore this idea of what it was, this gratitude that I had felt for all these years, these
emotions.
In my head, I really thought
that they were looking out for me and they had my best interest.
And that's what I mourned more than anything, I think.
(54:13):
And now it's just like, you have to, your point, kind of work through that trauma and kindof come back to, what is, who am I and what do I want out of work, out of life?
um Because...
Gotta look out for, honestly, like they're just looking out for number one, right?
(54:37):
Yeah, and it's a very real thing to like mourn the version of you that believed in that,right?
Like it is easier to not have your eyes opened.
And this is, know, when people lose religion or belief, it's not just all of the otherexit costs, but it's also like belief is nice.
(54:59):
You know, having that belief that this organization cared about you, this big successfulorganization cared about you.
was really nice.
Casey, it's about time to wrap up.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Y'all see, they don't have to be doing things to children in basements for organizationsto have negative effects on their people when they operate in these high control, high
(55:28):
demand kind of ways.
And it's so interesting to have you come out and tell us your story.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely, thank you guys for having me on here.
Sorry everybody about our technical difficulties that we had here toward the end.
We will fix ourselves for next time.
Please like and subscribe to this show.
Tell your friends, tell your mom, tell your dad.
(55:49):
Definitely send it to your MAGA in-laws.
You know, we have interesting guests almost every episode.
And uh my book, Uncultured, about growing up in the Children of God religious cult andthen going into the cult of the US Army.
You can get signed copies of here, also has a 4.9 rating on Audible, and is on yourSpotify premium.
Hi everybody and welcome back to Cults and the Culting of America.
As you can tell from my not booming radio voice, Scott is not here tonight.
um But we are going to have a, think super fun conversation with our guests tonight who'shere to talk about the cultiness of Starbucks.
(00:50):
And I have to say, I lived in Seattle, I did the entrepreneur scene.
Now I live in a development that has both a Starbucks and a Whole Foods.
So we got like all that cultiness up in here.
Casey, tell us about yourself.
And also please tell us how to pronounce your last name.
Okay, so yeah, my last name is Saganaro.
(01:14):
I feel like when you put your hands up like this, it kind of helps.
But yeah, it's Italian.
But a little bit about me.
I mean...
I'm not gonna get into any of the deep stuff yet, but basically I grew up in a small town.
First year of college, I went to work at Starbucks as a barista and that kind of took meon a whirlwind trip to store manager.
(01:45):
That was about eight years of my life.
I then...
Gone from Starbucks since 2021.
I have a son now.
have, I don't know, I feel like just a full, I don't know, my life was Starbucks for abouteight years.
So now, yeah, I am in a completely different field, speech therapy, actually.
(02:10):
And yeah, have my son and I'm pretty content.
That's me.
I read and I crochet.
I don't knit.
Lovely, I mean, we love all of the fiber arts on here.
You know, it's interesting how like, carefully you were putting that of like, you know, ittook me on this whirlwind trip and now, and like, I could tell there's like a Starbucks
(02:33):
time or maybe like a Starbucks Casey and then an after Starbucks Casey.
I definitely think that is the case.
I think it was necessary to get me to where I am today.
But yeah, I mean, it was pretty much my entire life, my entire young adult life, really.
So for my formative years.
(02:54):
um And yeah, it took me a while to get here.
wanted to ask you about was your youth, right?
So we know with cults, like they want you young.
Another thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is the military.
They want you young, they're out recruiting in high schools.
(03:14):
And corporations also want to get you when you're young.
What was it like for you?
Like, how did you get recruited?
What was it like?
like are you working around a bunch of other young people?
Seems like it could be a lot of fun.
absolutely.
um So I was actually married once before to a guy who was in the military.
(03:37):
that's a whole other topic.
But that took me to North Dakota where this was in 2013.
So there was a big oil boom.
All of the um service jobs were, they were in such high demand that they were payingreally well.
So I kind of had my pick.
And so when I went in and interviewed at different places, I remember very specifically atStarbucks, like here's a price difference here.
(04:06):
So like I could have gone to work at Target for 15 an hour in 2013.
Starbucks was $10 an hour.
But I remember seeing the baristas and just like their high energy, them laughing behindthe bar, and it just seemed like a very fun environment.
And so
the manager there who I adored.
(04:27):
um She offered me the job on the spot and I took it because I thought this is going to beso much more fun than working at Target.
So yeah, there's definitely an element of fun.
I was 18.
And yeah, I don't want to like totally dominate because I could just keep going.
(04:48):
It's just so, it's so interesting.
So first of all, my family was in the Texas part of that oil boom.
ah So, know, Texas and North Dakota both have had those big booms.
ah But here you are, you're a military spouse, right?
You're 18 years old.
You've just been moved to a completely new place, right?
(05:10):
And like, none of this has to be sinister, but this is exactly when a cult gets you,right?
and you're vulnerable, right?
It looks like fun.
And then that's the other thing.
One of the things I tell college students now is like, if a group is trying to recruit youand everybody is pretty and bouncy and shiny and happy, run away, right?
(05:35):
Because that's appearance and attitude control.
um
And I worked at Chick-fil-A for my first job out of the cult.
So like, you will smile, you will say my pleasure in response to thank you, know, so muchof this, almost like putting on your like happy Mormon face and like being a good
(05:57):
salesperson.
guess to that note because you said it was your first job out of you know and it was itwas Colty.
I will say you know part of it was you know I came from a low-income background.
I've been working since I was 14 like I bus tables, I cooked in kitchens usually witholder women and so to see people who were my age and who looked like they were having fun
(06:23):
it was just very it drew me in.
for sure.
And then there was a moment, think I was only at that location in North Dakota, I thinkfor, what have been like September of 2013 to May of 2014, so not even a full year.
(06:44):
uh And I remember the store manager looking at me and saying, like, you should just quitgoing to college and become a store manager.
And this is me, barista 18.
first year in college, just like, is that even coming from?
um So I feel like they hit you with that very early on, with this is something you can doand you should just stick with us.
(07:06):
Yeah, that's interesting because I thought they were one of the companies that like paidfor people to go to school.
Is that, do I not have that right?
So they started that program in fall of 2014.
um So I actually, I used that program.
I wound up moving back home to, well kind of back home.
(07:27):
I moved back to the south um and I was going to a community college when I moved home andthen they came out with that program which is the SCAP program.
So I hopped on that bandwagon.
Also, they really had their roots, their claws stuck in.
Yeah.
And it's funny because so much of that sounds similar to the military, right?
(07:49):
Or it's like they will, one, they will help you pay for the education, but two, they willkeep you busy enough so that you can't necessarily use it all the time.
And then when they do, you know, identify in you someone who has like this leadershipgene, you know, that turns into a whole nother like cult experience.
(08:13):
And
You know, it's interesting to me, because you keep using this language of like being drawnin or going in.
And you already mentioned my favorite work phrase, we're a family.
uh So we need to talk about all that.
like identifying someone who is clearly like high intelligence, high potential, right,willing to kind of do whatever it takes.
(08:38):
cults, and again, we're not calling Starbucks a cult here, we're just making parallels,right?
But like high control, high demand groups, they love a high achiever, right?
And it's this stereotype that cults go after like, people that are not that intelligent,or people that just need money, but like, no, you give them a like smart, high achiever
(09:04):
from a hard background, and like,
nobody's gonna work harder than that, right?
And I tell you, kid, like cult kid to military pipeline is so strong.
And it's just like, you you said it, like you've been working since you were 14, likeyou're gonna get in there and you're gonna work hard.
You're clearly a person who's like easy to interface with.
(09:26):
And cults identify that, you know, organizations identify that quickly and they'll startfunneling.
like attention and resources into you.
And then that feels really good too, right?
You're just a kind of 18 year old girl from nowhere and now you're getting people tellingyou like you have a future in this.
(09:47):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
um I mean, I remember, I've thought about this recently, actually, when I was promoted to,I think it was maybe ASM.
It's like my first salaried job.
um Like driving to work, and this is the other thing, I drove so far, I could have workedanywhere closer.
(10:10):
I drove 50 minutes one way.
um Just to get there, I make $10 an hour.
So I think about that now and I'm like, what on earth was I thinking?
But I really, I don't know, I was bought in.
um And I remember, well, I was just gonna say, I just remember like crying tears of joyone morning on the way to work.
(10:35):
Because I'm just like, thank goodness I have gotten out of this, like really this poverty.
um that I was living in and I felt like that was all Starbucks and all of the leaders thathad given me the opportunity.
So there was that kind of feeling of gratitude that played into why I put so much effortin.
(10:57):
um But yeah.
Now we're back in a minute.
effort, downplays your own effort a little bit though, right?
And that's something we see a lot too.
What I was gonna say earlier when you said, you know, it felt like a family or it feltlike losing a family, right?
For me, this is always a red flag because families.
(11:22):
I always say anything that calls itself your family wants to overwork you, underpay you,and expect you to put up with more BS than you would otherwise.
And you already just took the job at a significantly lower salary.
And many people do this.
And this is why I think things like mission-focused jobs, which I put...
(11:48):
entrepreneurship and startups and all of these companies that wanna talk about theirmission, right?
It's not just not for profit companies anymore.
All of them, it's like easy to get people to take less money and be more enthusiasticabout what you're doing.
(12:08):
And in fact, I was just writing this chapter in the book, there was a study that showedthat like 40 % of millennials say they would take lower pay.
for like a job that they cared about.
I could see that.
mean, I will say coming from...
oh
Coming from that world, that was something that I thought about when I tried to beintentional about what I wanted to do next was, even if I have to take a cut in pay to,
(12:40):
this is the caveat though, was to have better work-life balance.
I will do that.
I'll do that in a heartbeat.
um I think places like Starbucks and other corporations that I have.
worked for in the interim um is that they tried to really play up their benefits.
(13:02):
play up, there's um a specific company that's coming to mind right now, but leadershipprograms, you know, or these programs that'll really quickly promote you through the
ranks.
um Those sorts of things are red flags to me now, because I'm like, I already know howthis is going to play out.
(13:22):
Yeah, so can you tell us a little bit about that?
Like what's the difference between what they're telling the public, right?
When you say that, you're speaking my language, because I'm like, yeah, the military doesthat all the time, right?
Like what the words they say to the public and the actual experience that soldiers orveterans have can be very, very different.
(13:43):
Right.
You know, I don't know that Starbucks has um what they call a leadership program at thispoint or that they ever did have something explicitly like that.
There was a different corporation that I worked for after Starbucks that had a leadershipprogram.
um And that was specifically geared towards people who had bachelor's degrees and werewilling to come in and just, I mean, they didn't have to have any kind of background with
(14:11):
them.
just willing to come in and actually they sent them on a retreat um to corporate um for aweek and then they kind of had to perform for leadership when they came in periodically
and that was the process of moving up through the ranks.
(14:31):
This was a completely different company though.
um I was only there for a short while before realizing that was not for me.
Um.
Starbucks I feel like is a little bit more
I'm trying to remember, because it's been years, it was 2021 that I left.
uh They did have these development pages.
Like there's a whole book, I think maybe called like a Starbucks success manual orsomething along that line.
(14:59):
But it lined out for every role from barista to district manager, what your role was, andthen what you could do to like go above and beyond to demonstrate leadership.
um And then there was like a development page that was right on the back.
So I mean, that was there, it was available.
(15:20):
Store managers definitely used it.
District managers definitely used it.
um But there was, I don't think they were telling that to the public necessarily.
I think it was once they had kind of brought you in, um they started, what is the wordthey used?
Building a pipeline of talent was what was used.
(15:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about these programs, these leadershipprograms.
I mean, this is kind of what I started out thinking that I wanted to do is get, you know,master's or PhD in organizational psychology and go be part of this leadership
development.
But I mean, I agree with what you're saying that like it.
(16:05):
They they always present it.
as something that is for you, the individual.
But it seems like once you get past the curtain, it's always about helping theorganization.
It's about how they can prepare you to be this good employee for the organization.
Which is not even to say like, that's bad.
(16:27):
Of course they should be trying to do good things for the organization.
It's just.
I always feel like there's a little bit of a bait and switch in how this is presented.
I absolutely, I'm not sure that I would, I'm trying to think of like a bait and switchnecessarily, but.
I mean, yeah, you could do everything on that piece of paper that says go above and beyondand demonstrate this leadership and then maybe still not get a promotion, right?
(16:56):
Because at the end of the day, it's an organization that only has so many openings andmaybe someone's only willing to move wherever.
um
But one of the things that was alarming to me was towards the end of my time there, storemanagers had to get on a recruiting call.
(17:18):
I think, I believe it was once a month and we had to keep track in an Excel spreadsheet.
The people that we on our teams that we thought could fill that next role.
It's that pipeline.
uh Which I think in and of itself is not alarming, but
We had to one by one uh present to a group, like a panel of store managers that were inour district, people that we wanted to promote and tell a story basically about why they
(17:49):
were meeting these expectations or they demonstrated these qualities that were outlined inthis success manual.
And so the language had to be very specific.
I remember
Having such high anxiety because I just knew as soon as you say the wrong thing thedistrict manager would catch it and say well, that's the case if that's the word you're
(18:13):
gonna use they're not ready you need to go back and uh re-evaluate ah but having havingpeers who Really had not ever met these workers had no experience with the dynamics of
different stores Weighing in
essentially I'm from one's career and their future to me was unnerving.
(18:36):
There was no sense of trust in uh our judgment.
Like it had to go through this process and this group judgment and that to me wasnerve-racking.
Yeah, just everything you said makes me think about the military promotion process.
I mean, it literally is you're writing like just these very, very careful evaluations andthat, you know, it's that really specific language that always gives kind of closed
(19:08):
system, right?
Closed off group.
Like, why do you have your own language that you have to describe things in?
that's not good enough for regular description, right?
And one of the things I noticed in these large tech startups, I'm gonna lump Starbucks inthere with the Microsofts and the Googles and just like all the fun West Coast stuff.
(19:38):
And it's like one of the things is like,
They give you so many benefits, but it's all at their stores and on their campuses.
And then there's a reading list that they want you to be reading for your, you know,professional development.
And then everyone's reading the same things and everyone's spending all their timetogether.
And all of a sudden, it's like you said earlier, like it was like your whole life wasStarbucks.
(20:03):
What is the, it's like an echo chamber.
That is what I would most closely describe it as.
In the note of them reading the same things and it's interesting because Howard Schultz,he frequently, when he was CEO of course, would
(20:28):
post letters about current events.
Not just our business, what was relevant to us, but things in just the world and hisperspective on it, those things would get posted to like a hub basically.
those would get printed and posted.
if the partners, right, they're not employees, they're partners, we have a specific wordfor it.
(20:53):
um
But if they weren't logging in and reading that material, well, then the store managerswould post it because they wanted it to be read.
We wanted to read all the same stuff.
I think that kind of evolved into weekly updates, which had kind of similar things.
During certain periods, we would get actually like autobiographies from certain peoplethat I guess Starbucks wanted a partnership with.
(21:22):
Cause there were, there were a number of books that were
mailed to stores too for us to read.
Onward by Howard Schultz being...
we have copies in the back, yeah.
So that, you know, that's a very interesting topic.
It's just like the deification of the leader, right?
And I know from being in the entrepreneurship space in Seattle that Howard Schultz is verymuch worshiped as this brilliant man who did this brilliant thing and made billions of
(21:53):
dollars, right?
Like the thing everybody wants to do doesn't mean his view on politics is relevant to theemployees at the company.
Right?
Like it's very like when it's a college that has the name, you know, when it is the, oh,what am I trying to say here?
(22:15):
Just like when employees are expected to know the founding story and like mythology of theorganization, that's a big red flag for me.
Like why did I need to know the story of Adam Newman and Miguel meeting in an elevator tofound WeWork, like to have an office there?
(22:37):
You know, like.
um
interesting because I've never thought of it that way but that's absolutely what Onwardwas and it was I remember it being gifted to me.
um We had again to go through this process of promotions that initial barista to shiftsupervisor and then ASM.
(22:58):
um We had this program called Coffee Master which I think they did away with and then theybrought back but
um That was something that they pushed me to do to prove or demonstrate, you know,leadership skills, demonstrate commitment to the company and the coffee that was produced
(23:20):
to the origin story, the farmers that are in, you know, Africa or in the South Americathat are farming and roasting these beans.
Like we had to go through this program where we learned all about that.
There's a book.
And then
lead coffee tastings with peers, with customers, and share that information.
(23:43):
And when I went through the certification process, which was essentially just a leader whowatched me do this, uh I was gifted the book onward.
And of course I read it, but absolutely that's Howard Schultz's really dark origin story.
uh
And you know, think reading lists are so interesting to me, right?
(24:05):
Like to me, there's like a four tier question about the organization.
Like, do they have a recommended reading list?
Yes or no?
First question, right?
If no, this doesn't apply to you.
If yes, like boom, that's already one level of influence, right?
Just right there, the fact that you know the guy at the top wants you to be reading thesebooks.
(24:29):
Right?
Like that's gonna influence what you do.
You're gonna have more, and then it's gonna be more likely that someone else at Starbucksis reading that book too.
So then you're gonna have someone to discuss that with.
And then, blah, zee, blah, zee, blah, right?
It's great for the organization.
ah Then my next level is, you expected to be reading something on that reading list at anygiven time?
(24:55):
That's, no, actually the military is one further.
you know, and you look like you're kind of nodding your head.
And I would imagine in many of these organizations in these leadership programs, likeyou're expected to be doing some of these readings that your senior leadership has
recommended.
And then
it's not explicit expectation, it's that implicit undertone, you don't know this while itwas in this book.
(25:23):
But yeah.
Exactly.
That was all over Microsoft campus when I worked there for sure.
And it was all the books that were featured in the bookstore.
um And then there's a third level, which is, you kind of socially censured for readingbooks that aren't on those lists?
And that's where I put the army.
(25:43):
Like, you get caught reading fiction in uniform and like people are gonna have somethingto say about it.
literally when Kindles came out, it changed my life.
Because I'm like, yay, no one can tell what I'm reading anymore.
You simply cannot be a young woman officer sitting there reading Harry Potter, waiting togo in for your medical appointment.
(26:06):
You're expected to be reading something serious and about military history.
um And it does absolutely influence.
And then of course, the final thing is, your organization ban certain books?
And at this point, bad news bears.
But it's just like little things like this that people don't think about.
(26:29):
And when I got to Microsoft after leaving the military, was like, I'm walking around andpeople have Satya Nadella quotes on their walls.
And I was like, okay, it's culty.
It's culty.
Yeah, these are the things that light.
you know, I've gone to one college, University of Texas at Dallas, no clue who foundedthat or why.
(26:53):
And I got a great education from there.
And then I went to that school founded by John Harvard and got an education there.
like, obviously one, right, is like deifying this leader, making them godlike.
You know, this is, you know, again, I think I jokingly have called.
(27:14):
my experience cult-like um pretty pretty soon after I had left.
But just thinking about it in this light is very illuminating.
It has made me look back on certain experiences and just really question where was my headat?
Like why didn't I see this in the moment?
(27:37):
But I think that just goes back to that original piece of being vulnerable and being ah
made to feel this gratitude and this, uh you know, almost like I'm trying to think what itis that you had said about not really, ah basically giving yourself credit for the work
(28:00):
that you were doing, right?
Like you feel like you're not doing enough for these people who have given you thisopportunity.
um And so,
you're working for them cheaper and probably harder than you would otherwise.
And yet you're feeling like only gratitude to them.
Right.
(28:20):
And that was why I was like, oh, red flag, right?
Like you're not giving yourself enough credit for being the one that did all of this work.
And one of the things that when you're talking about this that I really started to see inentrepreneurship world was like, they're keeping you, when you're joking that it's a cult
(28:42):
amongst yourself, right?
When you're making that joke, or when you say your experience was cult-like, What thatmeans is they kept you so busy and so emotionally amped up all the time that
you just had no time for anything else, but you just felt super passionate about yourmission.
(29:07):
And like, it's so creepy to me when people say, you have a good cult, right?
But that's kind of what people are saying when they're like, you know, AA makes thesejokes, lots of nonprofits make these jokes, Starbucks, I have heard them make these jokes,
right?
That like, it's like a cult and all of these big.
(29:27):
conglomerates do it when they go do their week retreats that you mentioned that are justlike these cult induction ceremonies.
And again, it's not like harmful, harmful red, red line, right?
But I completely understand what you're saying when you're saying like you felt like yourexperience was cult-like.
(29:50):
And then especially,
if you're like looking more into high demand groups and you're like nodding, you know.
Yeah.
I'm like, I'm right there with you.
m
is like one of the things that I was super passionate about was like understanding, firstof all, individual trauma and that we all pretty much need like therapy and recovery from
(30:17):
that, right?
And then I went and studied group behavior and I'm like, so people have all of thisorganizational trauma, right?
And then it's just never acknowledged.
And then you're just supposed to like go,
go back and do better, right?
And so this is why I think that, you know, we're not saying Starbucks is the same asChildren of God, religious sex cult, which I wrote this book about, and y'all can get
(30:45):
signed copies attached, you know?
But it's like, you know, part of the reason that I wrote a book comparing my experience inthis horrible pedophile sex cult to my experience in the military is because people come
through these things that are cult-like.
your AA's, your super intense organizations, your nonprofits, teaching, nursing, Medicalschool, law school, and they don't understand why they feel like they have just been like
(31:16):
hazed and tortured and love bombed and worked to death and then cut off from their familywhen they left.
And it can be very overwhelming.
I think Two things that just stood out to me that you said a little bit of the backtrackBut you said they keep you so busy and emotionally amped up and then you just use the word
(31:38):
love bomb 1000 % there, you know there towards the end I believe this is like 2019 Igraduated from the scat program and in that process I got to meet
some leaders, I don't even remember what she would have been called, like RVP or somethinglike that.
(32:02):
But we got to meet with a group of SCAP scholars from across the country there in Arizona,and they had like a dinner for us, they had uh some sort of like, not really a conference,
but it was like an open forum for all of the scholars.
And so everyone came up and they told these,
(32:23):
emotional stories about their backgrounds and how they wouldn't have afforded collegeotherwise and you know people who I remember one woman talking about how Starbucks saved
her from her alcohol addiction and um I just I mean I remember leaving that night andtears hugging people you know it was very emotional and
(32:46):
back to what you said about not giving ourselves credit for what we do.
I left that graduation feeling so grateful for Starbucks and never once thought about theyears of hard work and sacrifice that it took me to get that diploma.
I was just so thankful for that company.
And my mom will say that too, because my mom was there.
(33:07):
And so she always is like, you know, I don't know why you have this bad taste in yourmouth because they did all these great things for you.
um But there's
There's the other side to that too.
Yeah, but does anyone listen when you talk about why you have the bad taste in your mouth,right?
Because, so first of all, that's called emotional evocation, right?
(33:31):
And I used to describe like, cults always have some sort of ceremony where you're requiredto like lay yourself open to the group and just like sort of let them use you and your
emotions and all of this.
um
And you do, I call it hacking vulnerability, right?
Because you're supposed to feel that way with people when you've gotten to know them andyou've put in the time and you've like gotten to this deep level, right?
(34:01):
Sharing deep hard things about yourself with another person does make you feel connected.
Oh, what just happened?
people, you know, that um you're never really going to see again, right?
Because they're from across the country.
You did a distance program.
And it's interesting that you say that because I am such an introvert really at heart.
(34:24):
And so I remember that day, like feeling compelled to get up there and tell my own story.
Like I had a microphone in hand in front of 300 people.
not Casey.
That was definitely an emotional response.
yeah, there I mean there was that in 2019.
I guess I'll get I'll finish what I was saying but I was at that time even feeling alittle disenchanted with the story I had been told because I had graduated, I had applied
(34:55):
for a district manager position.
I've been working as a store manager for I think five years at that point.
um And so I was told if you do all these things on this piece of paper You'll you know goup to this next level and I was turned down for the position Was not communicated with
about it really So I was disenchanted and then really what kept me One of my mentors theresaid, know stay for a year if you still feel
(35:29):
Like it's not a good fit after a year then leave.
ah It was two years before I left.
But late 2019, so I graduated in May.
In the fall, we had a leadership conference where all the store managers were flown out toChicago on Starbucks' dime.
we had, I mean, this is store managers from across the country.
(35:52):
So I want to say it was like close to 10,000 of us.
We were in the Chicago Bulls Stadium.
um It was a huge like, what is it?
A booze of pep rally basically for Starbucks.
um All sorts of big names were out.
We have John Legend come play live music, talk about how he got his start becauseStarbucks sold his CDs.
(36:17):
You know, we were made to feel this specific way and specifically at that conference andthis is what kept me.
oh
longer than that year was Howard Schultz had stepped down um again and ah the new CEO hadcome up on stage and said that Howard had met with him in the original Pike Place store
(36:44):
there in Seattle that they were sitting on the floor talking about the early days and whatthey had gone through together and that Howard all of a sudden looked over at him and
handed him the key.
to that Starbucks store and said, I'm trusting you with this.
I'm stepping away, I'm trusting you with this.
And so at that moment, all of the district managers, they come out with like a littlebaggie and they start handing out copies of that key to all of the store managers.
(37:13):
And so he said, and I'm trusting you with your stores.
And so that was like a very, one, was definitely emotional, but I think it became like,
very symbolic.
um I had a friend who was put on a performance improvement plan and the district managersaid, give me your key back from the leadership conference because I no longer trust you
(37:43):
with running the store.
And so it was a very odd time.
Somehow I walked away from that conference feeling better about
Starbucks, but now looking back I I just think it uh
(38:07):
So, right, like this random item, a key, right?
And it wasn't actually the key to their stores, right?
It was just a random key that was handed to each person that now has all of this symbolismand shockingly, cults use the key imagery a lot.
um A lot, a lot, a lot.
(38:29):
But it's this like additional sort of
way to control you through this internalized significance that is ethereal and hard toexplain to somebody who wasn't there, to somebody who didn't experience that emotion.
um It may surprise you not at all to know that I'm ending my book about cults describingthe Iris tour concert and how that could be like the perfect setting to make you
(39:02):
open, right?
That's what this conference does.
That's what these conferences do for these huge companies, right?
They spend millions of dollars on this because it makes you more open when you're chantingwith other people, when you're singing with other people, when you're sharing yourself
with other people, when you're showing emotion, laughing or crying with other people,right?
(39:26):
All of these things make you feel more connected.
and make you more open to suggestion, right?
When we chant in groups, it makes us more susceptible to suggestion.
And your churches know that, and your schools know that, and your companies know that.
um
(39:46):
You know, and I always say like when people wonder why they have these great amazingconferences and then they don't go actually get anything done afterwards.
It's because like your conference, that's what it's for.
It's for motivation.
It's for amping you up.
It's for having these emotional experiences and connections.
But if you don't go home and have business meetings where you actually put that stuff intopractice, then it doesn't matter what you say and it doesn't matter how good you make
(40:10):
people feel.
um
You know, you can tell your employees all day, it's about you, it's about you, you're theones that put us here, right?
We trust you, all this stuff.
But like, if you don't treat them at work, like you trust them and like they're the onesthat put you here, then it doesn't matter what you say.
Absolutely, I think uh I've never thought about it in that way the conferences, you knowfor me just intuitively I felt Kind of icky about it, right because I'm not I was that
(40:42):
middleman of I've got to bring all of this down.
I've got to trickle it all down in a way that is uh
you know, that is okay that these people will accept below me, right?
Because they're not getting the salary job.
They're not getting these benefits.
not, you know, they're making $10 an hour.
um And so I felt icky because we would, we went, we saw John Legend.
(41:07):
I'm just like, how much did that one show cost?
How much did busing us around cost these meals, um the flights themselves?
And so why could we not?
pay our employees more, that would have made my life easier, personally.
um But instead, they spent all of this money to, like you said, get this emotionalresponse.
(41:33):
I mean, it worked for me, right?
I stayed longer than I intended to.
So honestly, why this conversation is so good is because I think this is kind of thecapitalist problem, right?
Like we've all swallowed this story sold to us by the tech bros and you know, the godsthat rose out of the apocalypse of the intelligence era and
(41:58):
It's like, it's all about motivating, right?
It's all about culture and motivating your people.
But I really think that if an organization has to motivate you, then you're not gettingwhat you need from that, right?
Because if you're getting what you need from that organization, however you frame that,then you don't have to be externally motivated.
(42:25):
Right, but we have in the cult of capitalism, right, asked for the consistentself-sacrifice of our members, which is step four on my cult list all the time, always
sacrificing, always good for the group, always what the company needs, never what's goodfor the individuals, even though they promise it's gonna trickle down, but we all know
(42:46):
that's silly.
And then it's like, how do you motivate people?
uh And this, mean, honestly, in the end was why I didn't go become
practicing organizational psychologists at these big companies.
It's because I see these retreats and I'm like, no, these are cult tactics.
Like say good, bad, indifferent, whatever you want.
These are cult tactics and it worked, right?
(43:10):
They kept you there for an extra year or two.
US military does the same thing in other ways, you know?
And another one we see a lot is being like, well,
don't judge it based off this one store, right?
You gotta go over there, you gotta go, but like, they do these big meetings because theywork to get you amped up and to get you with that feeling that it's so amazing and I owe
(43:40):
them so much and I'm just gonna push aside all these little feelings like why did you hireJohn Legend instead of just paying all of the people more?
Yes, 1000%.
I'm just nodding because I'm like, yes, please just pay them.
I mean, the self-sacrificing aspect of it.
(44:00):
I mean, I do think that is more than just Starbucks.
That's absolutely just this hustle culture, which I hate personally.
I think maybe hopefully COVID.
Um, helped some of us reassess that I know it helped me, um, because it's just not, Iremember, you know, cause of course my life, even though it felt like it was just
(44:24):
Starbucks, it wasn't, you know, I had all of these other things that were going on in thebackground and I just didn't have time to deal with.
gosh, I remember in the heat of the pandemic, I was asked to dual manage.
m
stores.
think it was like 72 employees that I was responsible for and a ton of sales.
(44:50):
And I remember scheduling therapy like Tuesdays on an evening where I knew I was going tobe able to do that and like deal with myself and my life.
And I finally gave it up because I just had to come in and work those shifts.
That was the expectation was you do it because Starbucks is doing all of this for you.
(45:15):
And ultimately, you know, I don't think it's any surprise that my mental health did notthrive that year.
Yeah, so what was that like?
What was kind of the crack for you?
We've got about seven more minutes.
(45:35):
Can you tell us like, what was the walk away point for you?
And then what was that like coming out of that high demand environment, like emerging fromthat?
emerging from that?
So I would say this is to my own, ah I guess the best way I can put it is that last year,again, all of these things I had not dealt with and then the highest pressure possible
(46:07):
from leadership, ah you know, in the midst of COVID where we're operating
under a complete different set of expectations.
I mean, there's a natural anxiety with that too.
Like we at the time didn't know, you know, if you contract COVID, what does that reallylook like?
(46:28):
um Is it life threatening for you?
We don't know.
We were terrified.
So my mental health definitely took a, ah I mean, it declined.
We joked about the crying corner at the Starbucks store.
um I said if it's a corner, it's a crying corner.
(46:50):
And I think it was very apparent to those who I was leading that I was not doing well andhow that surfaced really was self-sabotage.
um don't, there's not really a better way for me to put it.
I sabotaged myself really trying to protect my leader's image of me um in the midst of allof this stress.
(47:14):
did some things I really regret, honestly, um and wound up taking a mental health break.
I took a leave of absence and ultimately was gone for three, I believe it was about threemonths, and came back and it was terrible.
(47:36):
It was a terrible, terrible experience and I was three months pregnant.
um
just very toxic and...
Haley, I don't if you should edit this out.
I don't know how transparent I really need to be, because I don't want it to affect mycredibility.
But I ultimately was fired for violating a procedure for COVID.
(48:03):
But I think the way that it was even worded was
basically that I didn't fit a value system.
don't, you are not, what was it?
Transparent.
It was a value.
um
The COVID procedure was not why.
(48:24):
I was there.
that wasn't that wasn't what even was really on the paper it was You basically I can'ttrust you This was the same person who took the key um It was very much like that
Starbucks verbiage um
(48:46):
you took a mental health break, right?
And I think, I think this is very significant.
And as you were
uh telling your story, I was just like, this reminds me of what happened to me on the wayout of the army.
And it was not what they said it was that ended my career, right?
(49:07):
And trust and believe when you're trying to like tell that story, it's difficult becausewe do all make bad choices, right?
Like when your cult experience is blowing up, right?
When you are getting
to the high part of the high demand organization and you're maybe about to jump off,right?
(49:29):
Like we're messing up, we're not thinking straight and all these things are happening.
But at the end of the day, they didn't uphold their promises to you.
And this is what we see over and over again.
And this is what I felt with the military.
And this is, I think, the crack in the brainwashing for a lot of people.
(49:51):
It's that they will at some point see that the organization is always gonna look out forthe needs of the organization.
they, it's honestly, think sometimes worse in these organizations that tell you you're afamily and they love you and build up all of this feeling.
And then they're still gonna choose money and the organization at the end of the day.
(50:14):
And that will break your heart really fast.
Absolutely, I will say, you know, on the note of that, I think Starbucks, especiallytowards the end, really talked a lot about mental health and how important it was.
They paid for Headspace memberships for everyone to help support that.
There was an EAP program.
(50:37):
And I remember in the conversation right before I left for my leave of absence with myleader saying,
I've been wanting to take leave of absence, but I know there's a stigma and that I'm goingto be asked to step down if I do and so I haven't because I can't and Her response was
literally well, maybe you should step down and I said, you know again, I can't I'll figurethis out but wound up taking that leave of absence and I think You know that probably
(51:07):
played played a part in it.
I wasn't willing to
to step back, uh but I knew I needed time.
And it just makes me wonder.
It makes me concerned about these places that say they value their mental health, butstill carry the stigma around.
(51:33):
If you have good mental health, then you should be able to lead, you should be able toperform.
And that ultimately if you ask for help or you need help, then you're not capable ofperforming.
um
To me that's concerning because at the end of the day, everyone's just trying to make surethey can have a roof over their head and feed their families.
(51:54):
And then there are these companies out there that um they're telling a story, but it's notthe truth.
It's not reality, I guess.
you know, I think when these companies say, we care about your mental health, right, whatthey mean is, here, we'll pay some stuff, take care of yourself, make sure it doesn't
(52:17):
affect us, right?
Like, that's what they mean.
It's very similar to when people find out you're neurodivergent and they're like, no, youcan unmask around me.
And then they're like, wait, no, we didn't want that.
Right?
like, men say they like women without makeup, and then you show them actual pictures ofwomen without makeup, and they're like, oh, what?
You know?
(52:38):
um But this mental health thing, this also fits with like a lot of times for people, thecrack in the brainwashing is a medical emergency, and that can be mental or physical.
But I believe it's, see in that moment,
(52:58):
the truth kind of, right?
Like, you know, in like a gothic movie when the lightning flashes and you see thesilhouette and you're like, oh, they're always gonna ask me to sacrifice for the good of
the group, but they're not willing to sacrifice for me.
And that's one of the things I look for, by the way, now when an organization wants to saythey're a good organization, I'm like, point to where you sacrifice.
(53:22):
When there's a choice to make between the group and the individual,
Show me where you sometimes choose the individual.
It doesn't have to be always, but it does have to be sometimes.
Otherwise, you're just taking from people.
You're just a vampire at this point.
Absolutely.
I said earlier, I felt like I had left a family and I think I did kind of mourn a littlebit.
(53:49):
But I think over time and given some space, I realized that what I was mourning was reallymore this idea of what it was, this gratitude that I had felt for all these years, these
emotions.
In my head, I really thought
that they were looking out for me and they had my best interest.
And that's what I mourned more than anything, I think.
(54:13):
And now it's just like, you have to, your point, kind of work through that trauma and kindof come back to, what is, who am I and what do I want out of work, out of life?
um Because...
Gotta look out for, honestly, like they're just looking out for number one, right?
(54:37):
Yeah, and it's a very real thing to like mourn the version of you that believed in that,right?
Like it is easier to not have your eyes opened.
And this is, know, when people lose religion or belief, it's not just all of the otherexit costs, but it's also like belief is nice.
(54:59):
You know, having that belief that this organization cared about you, this big successfulorganization cared about you.
was really nice.
Casey, it's about time to wrap up.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Y'all see, they don't have to be doing things to children in basements for organizationsto have negative effects on their people when they operate in these high control, high
(55:28):
demand kind of ways.
And it's so interesting to have you come out and tell us your story.
Thank you so much.
Absolutely, thank you guys for having me on here.
Sorry everybody about our technical difficulties that we had here toward the end.
We will fix ourselves for next time.
Please like and subscribe to this show.
Tell your friends, tell your mom, tell your dad.
(55:49):
Definitely send it to your MAGA in-laws.
You know, we have interesting guests almost every episode.
And uh my book, Uncultured, about growing up in the Children of God religious cult andthen going into the cult of the US Army.
You can get signed copies of here, also has a 4.9 rating on Audible, and is on yourSpotify premium.
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