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EP. 51: John Tierney is a Contributing Editor to the City Journal, a former reporter and columnist at The New York Times and co-author of The Power of Bad: How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
TIERNEY (00:03):
Most blacks were opposed to affirmative action in hiring and in college admissions.
'cause they knew this would stigmatize anyonewho got a job or who got admitted. But it was
something for the movement to do. And they alsopivoted where, you know, suddenly wasn't enough
to have equal rights before the law. And now youhad to have massive favoritism, and you also had
to have massive government spending. So youstarted with the War on Poverty and the, the
(00:29):
Great Society of Lyndon Johnson. And it's just,there's just been this en, you know, enormous
amount of money, trillions of dollars spent onthe war on poverty, and it hasn't really
accomplished much.
PROFT (00:46):
Welcome to another episode of Counterculture, the show that stands at the
intersection of reason and faith in the battleagainst sentimentality. Borrowing from Kamala
Harris's affinity for Venn diagrams. How is itthe intersection between the protestors, writers
and looters that Black Lives Matter gettogethers pro Hamas 10 cities and lavender Bun
(01:06):
Bachan is nearly an identical circle.
The politics of causes and boogeymen, this issentimentality in its purest, uncut form. It's
how looting gets turned into symbolic taking.And the lines between illegal interlopers and
law abiding citizens get blurred as the appetitefor political power grow. So does the need to
(01:28):
identify marginal, marginalized groups to feedthe beast. Speaking of Kamala, she provided a
ham-handed Battell illustration of this backwhen her cackling was limited to the Senate
chamber during the confirmation hearing for anominee for Assistant Homeland Security
secretary for ICE named Ron Patello. This was2018, Trump was in the White House and border
(01:49):
security was a priority, not for a kamlancompany. However, there's no such thing as
illegal people cannot be illegal. But there issuch a thing as the white supremacist, and it
turns out that they're all border patrol agents.Take a listen.
ICE GUY (02:04):
Klan was a, what we would call today a domestic terrorist group.
HARRIS (02:08):
Why, why, why would we call them domestic terrorist group?
ICE GUY (02:12):
Because they tried to use fear and force to change political environment.
HARRIS (02:17):
And what was the motivation for the use of fear and
ICE GUY (02:20):
Force? It was based on race and ethnicity.
HARRIS (02:22):
Right. Are you aware of the perception of many about how the, the, the power and the
discretion at ICE is being used to enforce thelaws? And do you see any parallels?
ICE GUY (02:37):
I do not see any parallels between,
HARRIS (02:39):
I'm talking about
ICE GUY (02:39):
Perception officers and agents.
HARRIS (02:40):
I'm talking about perception.
ICE GUY (02:42):
I, I do not see a parallel between what is constitutionally mandated as an, as it
relates to enforcing the law. Are you
HARRIS (02:48):
Aware that there's a perception?
ICE GUY (02:49):
I see no perception.
HARRIS (02:50):
Are you aware that there's a perception
ICE GUY (02:52):
That puts ice in the same category as the KKK? Is that what you're asking me?
HARRIS (02:56):
No, I'm very specific about what I'm asking you. Are you aware of a perception that
the way that the discretion, I see no peril, I'm
ICE GUY (03:05):
Not finished. I see none.
HARRIS (03:06):
I'm not finished. I'm not finished. Are you aware that there's a perception that that
ice is administering its power in a way that iscausing fear and intimidation, particularly
among immigrants and, and specifically amongimmigrants coming from Mexico and Central
(03:27):
America? Are you aware of the perception?
ICE GUY (03:30):
I I do not see a parallel between the power and the authority that ICE has to do its
job and the agents and officers who do itprofessionally and excellently with lots of
compassion.
HARRIS (03:41):
Sir, how can you be the head of an agency and be unaware of how your agency is
perceived by certain communities? There
ICE GUY (03:48):
Is a lot of perceptions in the media and in the public that are incorrect about the
agency,
HARRIS (03:52):
But the perception exist. Would you agree whether or not it's correct? And wouldn't
you agree then that if that perception exists,there might need to be some work done to correct
the perception?
ICE GUY (04:06):
I I do want to advocate for the workforce, the, the, the vital public safety
mission that they have to protect the homeland.And I think more people need to know how
valuable they are to the society. So I agreewith you on that.
HARRIS (04:21):
So I understand your point that you wanna defend the honor of the good men and women
who work in the agency. And I appreciate thatpoint. And I know the vast majority of the men
and women who work in the agency do a noble andgood job. I'm not talking about that. I'm
talking about the perception.
PROFT (04:38):
Kamala doesn't say ice is the k, k, k, she just insinuates as much by ascribing the
aspersion to unnamed people who have thisperception and ice should be very concerned
about correcting it if indeed it's inaccurate,which it may or may not be. As I said, uncut
sentimentality. It's a powerful drug. It inducespeople to give to on reason in preparation for
(05:00):
the unkindness required to enforce it. Our gueston this episode has tackled this topic recently.
He was also one of the leading skeptics of Ianswriting extensively over the last few years
about the implications of the mindlesssloganeering that coward so many into supporting
destructive mandates and lockdowns and givinginto madness more generally. John Tierney is a
(05:22):
contributing editor to the City Journal. He's aformer reporter on columnists for the New York
Times and co-author of the book, the Power ofBad, how the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How
We Can Rule It. John, welcome. Thank you forjoining us. Appreciate it.
TIERNEY (05:37):
Thank you, Dan. It's great to be with you.
PROFT (05:39):
So, you know, I I call it sentimentality or sophisticated barbarism, you know, the, the
ties that bind these same people together toparticipate in the cause, UR and you wrote
recently about this, and I, it's a, it's adescription I haven't heard before. I didn't
(06:00):
know there was sort of a psychiatric title thatwas applied to this phenomenon, the March of
Dimes syndrome. It's termed Can you, can youprovide some color on that?
TIERNEY (06:15):
Yeah, it's, it's something that, it was named after a very worthwhile organization, the
March of Dimes, which was, but, but when it wasfounded, its sole purpose was to conquer polio.
And so after the polio vaccines came out, its,it had accomplished its mission, but it didn't
go outta business, you know, it then startedfighting birth defects, which is another worthy
(06:37):
cause. But what I found is that this samesymptom, it, it afflicts all these radical
groups, all these protest movements. And I thinkmost of the protests that you see today, most of
the big issues in the news are due to activistswho have already achieved their original goals.
And yet, so they have to find something new todo. And unfortunately, you know, you know, many
(07:01):
of their new goals, you know, they may havestarted out with worthy goals like the Civil
rights movement, the gay rights movement, andthey achieved everything they wanted.
And so, but to stay in business, to keep theirjobs, to keep raising money, they have to start
inventing new ones. And so it wasn't enough, youknow, the Civil Rights movement, they, in the
1960s, they achieved, you know, they, they gotrid of Jim Crow, they achieved voting rights.
(07:25):
They, you know, housing, housing rights as faras ending discrimination there, we got the civil
rights law. And so once that happened, they, youknow, they'd achieved everything that the NAACP
put in its mission statement back in 1909 whenit was formed. But the movement didn't shut
down. They immediately started declaring newthings where they had to have racial quotas,
(07:48):
they had to have affirmative action. And theydid this, you know, even though at the time in
the 1960s, blacks had been, you know, they'dbeen the victims of a Jim Crow system for, you
know, for decades, most blacks were opposed toaffirmative action and hiring and in college
admissions.
'cause they knew this would stigmatize anyonewho got a job or who got admitted. But it was
(08:09):
something for the movement to do. And they alsopivoted where, you know, suddenly wasn't enough
to have equal rights before the law. Now you hadto have massive favoritism, and you also had to
have massive government spending. So you startedwith the War on Poverty and the, the Great
Society of Lyndon Johnson. And it's just,there's just been this en, you know, enormous
(08:30):
amount of money, trillions of dollars spent onthe war on poverty. And it hasn't really
accomplished much, you know, it, it, it actuallyhurt, you know, blacks in many ways. But it's
been great for the movement. 'cause they, youknow, they kept their jobs, they kept being,
being able to raise money, the, you know, and,and the election of Barack Obama was a real
(08:53):
problem for the movement because they've beensaying, America's this horribly racist country,
and yet they just voted to elect a black man.
So it was shortly after Obama's election thatyou started seeing this obsession with blacks
being killed by police, which, you know, thereare only, you know, a, a dozen or so annually
(09:14):
unarmed black, killed by the police. And, andthe studies have repeatedly shown, there's no
racial pattern to it as far as that goes. Butthis gave them something, you know, gave a new
cause, you know, and journalists were eager toseize on something. So the Black Lives Matter
movement started, and that just became anotherfundraising bonanza. You know, there was
(09:34):
something like $10 billion donated to BlackLives Matter related causes. So it was just, it
kept, it provided all these jobs and DEI, youknow, all this stuff. And so you see this over
and over again in other movements. So gay rightsmovement started out, they wanted to overturn
sodomy laws. They wanted to de-stigmatizede-stigmatize homosexuality, and they succeeded.
(09:59):
You know, the gay pride fly, you know, flieseverywhere that, you know, you know, gays used
to be taboo in, in, you know, on, on networktelevision. Now gay characters are practically
obligatory. And then, so after they achievedthose goals and all the anti sodomy laws were
overturned, then they set a goal of gay marriageand they achieved that. And so there was really
(10:21):
not much left for them to do. So you then themovement expanded. So it became L-G-B-T-Q, you
know, they started doing, you know, they becameobsessed with transgender stuff and, you know,
and so now it was no longer enough thatAmericans, you know, the gay marriage is legal
everywhere. Most Americans approved of it, or,you know, at least tolerate it. It certainly
(10:44):
suddenly now you, you had to force conservativeChristians to bake cakes and design the
websites. You had to, kids had to have access inelementary school libraries to how-to manuals
for gay sex. I mean, it just, they kept, youknow, they keep moving. The goalposts is what
happens. And you see that over and over againwith these movements.
PROFT (11:03):
Well, sure. And, and, and, and why wouldn't they, right? I mean, there's, there's
always new territory to conquer, and frankly,there's always another perceived or identified
marginalized group to add to your coalition togrow your ability to essentially clear the next
hurdle, right? I mean, the Rusty Reno over ourfirst things refers to it as solidarity and
(11:26):
marginality. And that's what it is. And it, itseems to me, it helps explain why, well, wait a
second. You know, the obvious one in that'scurrent queers for Pal Palestine, right? You,
you understand how gay people would be treatedby Hamas and Palestinians generally. But, but
actually that doesn't matter because I am insolidarity with the Ivy League kids in the 10
(11:49):
cities, and they're in solidarity with the BlackLives Matter guys, looting and sacking American
cities. And so the more that we let you know,we're, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of one for
all and all for one. The more that we're alltogether, then when it comes around for our
turn, they'll back my play. And then I'll get alittle more slice of the power, I'll get a
(12:13):
little bit more of the spoils of war in thatmoment, just as they're getting a little bit
more of the spoils of war now,
TIERNEY (12:18):
Right? Yeah. The, you know, there are these alliances, you know, and, and as you've
said before, and you know, that, I mean, of theheritage of the, of this stuff about victimhood
and, you know, and, and the marginalized people,I mean, it goes back to Marx where they were
gonna rescue the proletariat, the poor workingman. Then of course, it turned out that the
communism and socialism hurt the working man. Sothey then had to start inventing new groups to
(12:42):
be fighting for, we have to find newmarginalized groups to be protecting. And of
course, when you are protecting a marginalizedgroup, you're not, you're raising money to get
yourself a job doing it. You're also fighting toget political power, so you can then I'm
protecting them and I'm going to seize all thispower for, you know, for me and my allies. We'll
gain political power and then we can start reyou know, start, start ordering other people
(13:05):
around.
We can start taking money from taxpayers andgiving it to our causes. So it's, I mean, that's
been going on by the left forever. And, youknow, you just see how this, I mean, you know,
when I first noticed this, it was, I covered thefirst big anti-nuclear march in Washington, you
know, right. A in 1979, right after the threeMile Island accident, or right after three Mile,
(13:29):
you know, Jane Fonda's movie, the ChinaSyndrome. And what amazed me, and I just, you
know, I was a young reporter in, in Washington,and I, I just dimly became aware and
interviewing the people doing the march thatthey were all veterans of the Vietnam War
movement. And, and basically the Vietnam War hadended. They needed a new gig. So they suddenly
(13:50):
on, Jane Fonda was out there doing, you know,doing her thing. And Tom Hayden, they needed a
new gig now that the war was over. So that'swhat they did.
PROFT (13:59):
Right. And it's so, so this is maybe something you have to realize. First of all,
it's all on a continuum and it's inexhaustible,right? You, you, you, you, you, it cannot be
satiated. So, you know, the, I mean the, the,the quote unquote sexual revolution as it was
termed in 1968, I'm, or the late sixties, I'm,I'm always one to point out, I mean, it was, it
(14:21):
was the, the title of the book by Wilhelm Reichand a part of the Frankfort School 45 years
earlier. So it's, it's on a continuum. And sonow we're, we're now into the gender bending
phase of this continuum. Affirmative, aaffirmative action. It's on a continuum.
Affirmative action was to create equality ofopportunity on the front end. Now we're past
(14:41):
that, and we have to create a quality of theoutcome on the backend. And, you know, that
means people need more upfront and people needmore on the backend to make sure we all end up
in the same place. They're a little unclearwhat, what that same place is, or how we're all
gonna end up there. But I mean, you, you see howthis builds upon itself over time. It's not stop
(15:02):
and start, stop and start. It's always, it's,it's, it's ongoing. And I, I think, I don't
think people have an appreciation for that,
TIERNEY (15:09):
Right? Well, it's, it is like a business, you know, businesses have to stay in
business. You gotta keep selling products. Andso, you know, when, when one product becomes
obsolete, you gotta find a new one. And so, andthat's what's been going on with them, with
they, and, you know, and they choose thesethings. I mean, the whole idea of affirmative
action and, and, and we have to have equaloutcomes. I mean, and it's an activist dream in
(15:30):
a way, because as you know, there're, you know,as long as there're differe, it's a possibility.
Differences among possibility, right? I mean,there are differences among people there, you
know, in every occupation you look in, there'ssome groups that, that are there more, but, you
know, for various reasons. And, but, so as longas there's any difference, they've got, you
know, they've, they've got a new product orsale, we've gotta help somebody, and we've
gotta, you know, pass some law, we've gotta getsome money. We've gotta do something and gain
(15:55):
some power to, to fix this problem. They'll,they'll always have it.
PROFT (15:58):
Well, and, and you've seen this, I mean, race is just the example I'm gonna use. But
because, and part because my friend Will Rileywrote a book on it called the Hate Crime Hoax.
But you know, the point is, and it's not beenmade by him exclusively, is that the, the less
racist society becomes, the more the need toinvent instances of racism to keep the business
(16:19):
going, to use your metaphor. And so, and so youhave the Jesse Smollett case, and then everybody
rushes. And hey, if that doesn't check out, thenwe just walk past it, pretend it didn't happen,
and we're onto the next one because we have tocontinue to search. I mean, it's like a shark
continuing to look for food, right? Yeah. Youjust have to continue to search for the next
opportunity. And if you, you know, if you make amistake, then you just ignore it and move on
(16:44):
because you have a lot of sort of infrastructurethat will help you ignore it and move on.
TIERNEY (16:50):
Exactly. And you know, the, the interesting thing, and, and this is something
that I learned when I was researching thisarticle for City Journal, is, I mean, I, I had
seen for a while how the activists always dothis. You know, they're always moving on like a
shark, as you say. But what I didn't, theinteresting thing too is that the, the appetite,
you know, the market for them among the publicgets better too. Because the better that
(17:14):
everything gets, the richer people become, thefreer people become, the more educated they
become, the more time and disposable income, thepe-people have to wanna do good. They wanna save
someone. And so, you know, there are fewer andfewer people who need to be saved now because,
and you know, you know, life has gotten so muchbetter for most people on earth, but you've got
(17:36):
all these people that wanna save someone.
So they're desperately. And so they'redesperately, you know, and the Jesse Smoot is,
has been said, you know, that the demand forracism vastly exceeds the supply. Right? That's
why they have to admit it. And the interestingthing that I found out was that famous 19th
century Victorian sociologist Herbert Spencer,and it's been dubbed Spencer's law. 'cause he
(17:59):
noticed that the big social movements of histime were about, you know, mandatory education
for kids, temperance laws, you know, taking careof the poor, feeding people. But what he noticed
was that these problems had all been really bad.You know, at the start of the 19 hundreds in
(18:20):
England, you know, in the late 18 hundreds, theywould, massive literacy, people were hungry,
kids were working in factories. And most ofthose problems improved drama, you know, they
went, they improved dramatically. Kids were allgoing to school.
They were learning to read. Most people inEngland were by the end of the century. But it
was at the end of the century after people were,you know, they had better incomes, better jobs,
(18:43):
they were literate, they were, and alcoholismhad declined dramatically. That's when the
temperance movement, that's when all these dogood movements happen because, and part of it is
that once things are, once most people are welloff, it becomes more glaring. Oh, there's
somebody who's left out here. Whereas beforeeverybody had that problem, but now it's just a
(19:03):
few people. So we tend to focus, and it's theway our human brains work, you know? And in the
power of bad, the book, we, we wrote about thenegativity bias and really interesting
experiments that have been done showing that asthings get better, as, as something disappears,
we start looking harder and harder for negativethings, you know, that as things get better, we
look harder to find negative things. 'cause ourbrain is so wired to focus on the negative.
(19:28):
We're always looking for threats. And so, ba sowhen these activists, you know, when this shark
goes along and it's always looking for a newthing, it's also got more and more people
willing to, you know, to buy, you know, to buythese hoaxes, these racist hoaxes and, and all
the other things that the activists are selling.
PROFT (19:45):
Yeah. And, and maybe that wouldn't be so problematic if, you know, if this was just sort
of dilettantism, but you know, it's the old sawabout, you know, beware of the man who wants to
save humanity, right? And, and, and so, sothat's what you see. And, and it is interesting
you say, sort of our brains are wired this way.The sort of the, the look, the search for
(20:06):
negativity, the, the closer we get, the fartheraway we are. Well, I then does it, does it
necessarily follow that, you know, the declineof great powers is inevitable because you
become, you know, to borrow the, the phrase, youbecome a victim of your own success. So, you
know, barring some sort of, I don't know,religious reawakening, this is the track that
(20:32):
the West is on, particularly America.
TIERNEY (20:35):
I, there's something to that where, I mean, the problem, you know, is safety, is that,
you know, that you become obsessed with everylittle threat you could face. And so you
basically stop doing anything, anything newbecause you're so afraid of, you're so aware of
something might go wrong here. I, I mean, and,and, and the problem is, I mean, it's nice that
people wanna help other people, and it's greatif they do it through volunteer groups, through
(20:58):
their personal efforts to help people. But theproblem is that these activists often exploit
that, that that desire to, to help people, butwith causes that really, that hurt society. And
they actually go against the original goal. Imean, you know, that the gay rights movement
was, was very accept, you know, became veryaccepted and it achieved all these victories,
(21:20):
and then it's gotten into this transgender stuffand, you know, trying to sterilize children.
And, and so people, it's been bad for theoriginal, and many gays and lesbians are opposed
to this stuff because it, it puts the wholemovement in a bad light. And, and it's made
people, it's been a setback in that sense forgay rights because they've embraced these crazy
(21:41):
charges. And the other thing that happens, Imean, Jane and, and I call it the, the, the
Jane, you know, the Jane Fonda syndrome or theMarch of Jane syndrome, which is, you know, Jane
Fonda, when she started, you know, she did theanti-war thing against Vietnam. Then she shifted
to anti nus and then because, and, and sheprobably did as much as anyone through her movie
(22:03):
and through her activism to cripple the nuclearindustry in the United States. And of course
that led to lots more coal plants being built inthe, you know, in the, in suing decades led to
more carbon emissions.
And so now, you know, that made worse theproblem of carbon emissions. But that gave, that
gave her a whole new cause. Her current thingnow is she has fire drill Fridays, and, you
(22:24):
know, she's a big leader against, against carbonemissions. And she helped create that problem.
She basically made work for herself doing it.And, you know, someone from the Huffington Post,
very sympathetic lefty outfit interviewed her,and they kind of delicately asked her, do you
have any second thoughts about me? You know,trying to shut down that? And goes, no, no, no.
It was the right message. You know, no secondthoughts never apologize. Just go on with the
(22:47):
gig.
PROFT (22:48):
Right? Right. After she's done tackling climate change, she'll tackle the tomahawk chop
at Braves games. She's gonna work on that next.I mean, it is remarkable. You mentioned safety
as them, and I did wanna get to your review,your book review of the Sainted, Tony Fauci
memoir on call, and just his speaking of JaneFonda being unapologetic, Tony Fauci channeling
(23:13):
Jane Fonda. He, he did nothing wrong. There'snothing he would do differently based on the
information he had at the time throughout theCovidian period. He did everything as good as it
could be done.
TIERNEY (23:26):
Y you know, it's just unbelievable what he is gotten away with, you know? And the
appalling thing is his, his book, his memoir hasbeen number one on the Times bestseller list
some weeks, you know, that. And he had noapologies in it, no nothing. And and he's been
doing this his whole career, you know, he wasthe, you know, at the start of the AIDS
epidemic, he was one of the people warning thatAIDS is gonna spread among heterosexuals. It's
(23:49):
gonna be this huge, you know, that we all haveto be terribly concerned. He helped, you know,
he, he helped Surgeon General Coop publish hisbooklet warning that heterosexuals were all at
risk. And this was a bonanza for Fauci. He gothuge budget increases in his work. But, you
know, but it's, it, it terrified the wholepopulation for, you know, many, many years.
(24:12):
I think a couple decades this went on untilpeople finally realized it's not really
spreading among heterosexuals. And he's donethis, this repeatedly. The swine flu, the bird
flu, these were all gonna be devastatingpandemics. And, and you know, he, and so it
would be great for Fauci, he'd be on the mediaall the time. He'd be getting lots of money, you
know, huge budget appropriations to deal withthese pandemics that never arrived. And then,
(24:36):
and of course he stowed, you know, he, he, hestoked so much fear. And there was always gonna
be, we have to prepare for this killer new blackplague, new Spanish flu that's gonna come, that
they started funding this research, this gain offunction research in China and elsewhere. And
now in all likelihood, the overwhelminglikelihood is that basically we, you know, that
(24:59):
it was the fear of that, the fear that Faucihelped stoke, that led to the Covid pandemic
because they, they paid for that research thatcreated the virus in the, in the Wuhan lab. I
mean, it's terrible, terrible outcome, but verygood for, for Tony Fauci. And he has no
apologies, you know, he's selling books. He is,you know, getting, he, he, he's collecting
(25:22):
ungodly fees for his lectures. It's been a greatgig for him.
PROFT (25:26):
And, and, and frankly, for the public health establishment, you haven't seen too many
people that I can think of that have offered anysecond thoughts on what we did. Yeah. Some
people say, if we had to do it again, I wouldn'tdo lockdown. So next time around, I wouldn't do
lockdowns, I wouldn't close the schools. Soyou've had some more recognition there because
(25:47):
of the overwhelming evidence of how negative theimpact was on children's socio intellectual
development combined with how little protectionthat really offered them. But for the most part,
it's been, you know, cul quietly away from thecrime scene.
TIERNEY (26:05):
Yeah, no, it, it just, you know, memory hold and, you know, the media has just been, was
so shameless and scaring people. It was greatfor them. They got big ratings, lots of clicks.
You know, there was one paper, I think it was inDenmark that actually did apologize to its
readers and said, you know, we really did, wewere wrong about this, we shouldn't have done
it. And there have been, you know, somegovernment officials in Europe, you know, have
(26:29):
said, you know, we were wrong. We did too much.We should have done what Sweden did, which is
let life go on, protect the elderly, and letlife go on for the rest of them. But otherwise,
I mean, you know, the, I mean, Rachel willAlinsky the, the CDC director, she went and
said, our problem, and, and Fauci actually, youknow, said this in his book too, that we should
(26:50):
have done more early, which is exactly theopposite of what, you know. I mean, they should
have done less, I mean, they should have donesome different things early, like really
protecting elderly people, not sending them, youknow, into nursing homes if they were infected.
But, you know, the, the, but the CDC wants moremoney and more power next time they've been, you
(27:10):
know, the WHO, the World Health Organization hasbeen, wants a pandemic treaty that would, you
know, that would, that would institutionalizethis stuff around the world. It's just appalling
how they don't pay a price for this except onenlightened programs like yours.
PROFT (27:24):
Yes. Well, we try, but I mean, but I mean, you know, that, that, I mean, actually
it's infuriating just to hear you repeat it. Thewe should have done more early, right? That's,
that's, that's sort of the throwaway, like itsounds like, oh, if we could only been more
proactive, and so we should be, be moreproactive next time by, as you say, getting more
cash in-house right now. Yeah. And, and so he,nothing specific. We should have just done more
(27:48):
generally speaking early. And he, and he talkslike a politician because that's the way that he
and so many of these public health professionalsbehaved. And I just wonder, you know, if
there'll be any hesitation the next go aroundand who knows when that may be. But any
hesitation from these institutions or, or the,the, the, the people that, from these academic
(28:11):
institutions or the institutions themselves tosay, you know, don't get over your skis this
time around like you did last time around.
TIERNEY (28:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah. I mean, the whole establishment was involved in this, and
they have no desire to do it. I mean, there'ssome hope if Republicans get Congress, you know,
in the Senate, that they would do aninvestigation. And if there's a Republican
president, then, you know, he might dosomething. I mean, there's a little problem with
Trump and that Trump, his instincts were, youknow, were pretty good on this. And he, you
(28:41):
know, he brought in Scott Atlas, one of the, theskeptics of the lockdown, but, you know, he
didn't fire Fauci. And so, you know, DeSantiswas attacking him for that justifiably, I think.
But, you know, but DeSantis isn't around. And soI don't know how much Trump wants to talk about
it, but, but Scott s told me that he thoughtTrump did get, take the right lessons from the
(29:03):
pandemic and understood what went wrong.
So if it happened on his watch, he wouldn't, hewouldn't do this again. And maybe he'll try and
put in some, you know, this project 2025 thatthe Heritage Foundation is doing that, of
course, you know, if you listen to theDemocrats, you think it's the, you know, second
coming or it's the forthright coming, right?When in fact, most of what it does is it's
trying to reduce the power of the federalgovernment. And they do have some very good
(29:25):
proposals for taking away the power of thesefederal agencies. Decentralizing, you know, one
of the reasons Fauci was so powerful, hecontrolled so much money, you know, his agency,
you know, had a, had, you know, almost amonopoly in a way on, on, on public funding for
research in infectious disease. So, you know,people were all afraid to speak up against them.
(29:45):
And there's some really good ideas that thisfunding ought to be dispersed to the states so
that no one person has that choke hold on itanymore. And basically to, you know, and, and
proposal that the government can't just declarean emergency endlessly, you know, they've gotta
justify it. They can't keep claiming thesepowers. So maybe that will change, but, but, but
they're never gonna apologize on their own topeople that made these mistakes.
PROFT (30:09):
John Tierney is the contributing editor to City Journal. He's the former reporter in
columnist of the New York Times, his book, thePower of Bad, how the Negativity Effect Rules Us
and How We Can Rule It. John, thank you forjoining us. Appreciate your time.
TIERNEY (30:23):
Thank you. Dan,
Please like this video and subscribe to thischannel if you haven't already. And please leave
a comment in the comment section. We'd love tohear your thoughts.
TIERNEY (00:03):
Most blacks were opposed to affirmative action in hiring and in college admissions.
'cause they knew this would stigmatize anyonewho got a job or who got admitted. But it was
something for the movement to do. And they alsopivoted where, you know, suddenly wasn't enough
to have equal rights before the law. And now youhad to have massive favoritism, and you also had
to have massive government spending. So youstarted with the War on Poverty and the, the
(00:29):
Great Society of Lyndon Johnson. And it's just,there's just been this en, you know, enormous
amount of money, trillions of dollars spent onthe war on poverty, and it hasn't really
accomplished much.
PROFT (00:46):
Welcome to another episode of Counterculture, the show that stands at the
intersection of reason and faith in the battleagainst sentimentality. Borrowing from Kamala
Harris's affinity for Venn diagrams. How is itthe intersection between the protestors, writers
and looters that Black Lives Matter gettogethers pro Hamas 10 cities and lavender Bun
(01:06):
Bachan is nearly an identical circle.
The politics of causes and boogeymen, this issentimentality in its purest, uncut form. It's
how looting gets turned into symbolic taking.And the lines between illegal interlopers and
law abiding citizens get blurred as the appetitefor political power grow. So does the need to
(01:28):
identify marginal, marginalized groups to feedthe beast. Speaking of Kamala, she provided a
ham-handed Battell illustration of this backwhen her cackling was limited to the Senate
chamber during the confirmation hearing for anominee for Assistant Homeland Security
secretary for ICE named Ron Patello. This was2018, Trump was in the White House and border
(01:49):
security was a priority, not for a kamlancompany. However, there's no such thing as
illegal people cannot be illegal. But there issuch a thing as the white supremacist, and it
turns out that they're all border patrol agents.Take a listen.
ICE GUY (02:04):
Klan was a, what we would call today a domestic terrorist group.
HARRIS (02:08):
Why, why, why would we call them domestic terrorist group?
ICE GUY (02:12):
Because they tried to use fear and force to change political environment.
HARRIS (02:17):
And what was the motivation for the use of fear and
ICE GUY (02:20):
Force? It was based on race and ethnicity.
HARRIS (02:22):
Right. Are you aware of the perception of many about how the, the, the power and the
discretion at ICE is being used to enforce thelaws? And do you see any parallels?
ICE GUY (02:37):
I do not see any parallels between,
HARRIS (02:39):
I'm talking about
ICE GUY (02:39):
Perception officers and agents.
HARRIS (02:40):
I'm talking about perception.
ICE GUY (02:42):
I, I do not see a parallel between what is constitutionally mandated as an, as it
relates to enforcing the law. Are you
HARRIS (02:48):
Aware that there's a perception?
ICE GUY (02:49):
I see no perception.
HARRIS (02:50):
Are you aware that there's a perception
ICE GUY (02:52):
That puts ice in the same category as the KKK? Is that what you're asking me?
HARRIS (02:56):
No, I'm very specific about what I'm asking you. Are you aware of a perception that
the way that the discretion, I see no peril, I'm
ICE GUY (03:05):
Not finished. I see none.
HARRIS (03:06):
I'm not finished. I'm not finished. Are you aware that there's a perception that that
ice is administering its power in a way that iscausing fear and intimidation, particularly
among immigrants and, and specifically amongimmigrants coming from Mexico and Central
(03:27):
America? Are you aware of the perception?
ICE GUY (03:30):
I I do not see a parallel between the power and the authority that ICE has to do its
job and the agents and officers who do itprofessionally and excellently with lots of
compassion.
HARRIS (03:41):
Sir, how can you be the head of an agency and be unaware of how your agency is
perceived by certain communities? There
ICE GUY (03:48):
Is a lot of perceptions in the media and in the public that are incorrect about the
agency,
HARRIS (03:52):
But the perception exist. Would you agree whether or not it's correct? And wouldn't
you agree then that if that perception exists,there might need to be some work done to correct
the perception?
ICE GUY (04:06):
I I do want to advocate for the workforce, the, the, the vital public safety
mission that they have to protect the homeland.And I think more people need to know how
valuable they are to the society. So I agreewith you on that.
HARRIS (04:21):
So I understand your point that you wanna defend the honor of the good men and women
who work in the agency. And I appreciate thatpoint. And I know the vast majority of the men
and women who work in the agency do a noble andgood job. I'm not talking about that. I'm
talking about the perception.
PROFT (04:38):
Kamala doesn't say ice is the k, k, k, she just insinuates as much by ascribing the
aspersion to unnamed people who have thisperception and ice should be very concerned
about correcting it if indeed it's inaccurate,which it may or may not be. As I said, uncut
sentimentality. It's a powerful drug. It inducespeople to give to on reason in preparation for
(05:00):
the unkindness required to enforce it. Our gueston this episode has tackled this topic recently.
He was also one of the leading skeptics of Ianswriting extensively over the last few years
about the implications of the mindlesssloganeering that coward so many into supporting
destructive mandates and lockdowns and givinginto madness more generally. John Tierney is a
(05:22):
contributing editor to the City Journal. He's aformer reporter on columnists for the New York
Times and co-author of the book, the Power ofBad, how the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How
We Can Rule It. John, welcome. Thank you forjoining us. Appreciate it.
TIERNEY (05:37):
Thank you, Dan. It's great to be with you.
PROFT (05:39):
So, you know, I I call it sentimentality or sophisticated barbarism, you know, the, the
ties that bind these same people together toparticipate in the cause, UR and you wrote
recently about this, and I, it's a, it's adescription I haven't heard before. I didn't
(06:00):
know there was sort of a psychiatric title thatwas applied to this phenomenon, the March of
Dimes syndrome. It's termed Can you, can youprovide some color on that?
TIERNEY (06:15):
Yeah, it's, it's something that, it was named after a very worthwhile organization, the
March of Dimes, which was, but, but when it wasfounded, its sole purpose was to conquer polio.
And so after the polio vaccines came out, its,it had accomplished its mission, but it didn't
go outta business, you know, it then startedfighting birth defects, which is another worthy
(06:37):
cause. But what I found is that this samesymptom, it, it afflicts all these radical
groups, all these protest movements. And I thinkmost of the protests that you see today, most of
the big issues in the news are due to activistswho have already achieved their original goals.
And yet, so they have to find something new todo. And unfortunately, you know, you know, many
(07:01):
of their new goals, you know, they may havestarted out with worthy goals like the Civil
rights movement, the gay rights movement, andthey achieved everything they wanted.
And so, but to stay in business, to keep theirjobs, to keep raising money, they have to start
inventing new ones. And so it wasn't enough, youknow, the Civil Rights movement, they, in the
1960s, they achieved, you know, they, they gotrid of Jim Crow, they achieved voting rights.
(07:25):
They, you know, housing, housing rights as faras ending discrimination there, we got the civil
rights law. And so once that happened, they, youknow, they'd achieved everything that the NAACP
put in its mission statement back in 1909 whenit was formed. But the movement didn't shut
down. They immediately started declaring newthings where they had to have racial quotas,
(07:48):
they had to have affirmative action. And theydid this, you know, even though at the time in
the 1960s, blacks had been, you know, they'dbeen the victims of a Jim Crow system for, you
know, for decades, most blacks were opposed toaffirmative action and hiring and in college
admissions.
'cause they knew this would stigmatize anyonewho got a job or who got admitted. But it was
(08:09):
something for the movement to do. And they alsopivoted where, you know, suddenly wasn't enough
to have equal rights before the law. Now you hadto have massive favoritism, and you also had to
have massive government spending. So you startedwith the War on Poverty and the, the Great
Society of Lyndon Johnson. And it's just,there's just been this en, you know, enormous
(08:30):
amount of money, trillions of dollars spent onthe war on poverty. And it hasn't really
accomplished much, you know, it, it, it actuallyhurt, you know, blacks in many ways. But it's
been great for the movement. 'cause they, youknow, they kept their jobs, they kept being,
being able to raise money, the, you know, and,and the election of Barack Obama was a real
(08:53):
problem for the movement because they've beensaying, America's this horribly racist country,
and yet they just voted to elect a black man.
So it was shortly after Obama's election thatyou started seeing this obsession with blacks
being killed by police, which, you know, thereare only, you know, a, a dozen or so annually
(09:14):
unarmed black, killed by the police. And, andthe studies have repeatedly shown, there's no
racial pattern to it as far as that goes. Butthis gave them something, you know, gave a new
cause, you know, and journalists were eager toseize on something. So the Black Lives Matter
movement started, and that just became anotherfundraising bonanza. You know, there was
(09:34):
something like $10 billion donated to BlackLives Matter related causes. So it was just, it
kept, it provided all these jobs and DEI, youknow, all this stuff. And so you see this over
and over again in other movements. So gay rightsmovement started out, they wanted to overturn
sodomy laws. They wanted to de-stigmatizede-stigmatize homosexuality, and they succeeded.
(09:59):
You know, the gay pride fly, you know, flieseverywhere that, you know, you know, gays used
to be taboo in, in, you know, on, on networktelevision. Now gay characters are practically
obligatory. And then, so after they achievedthose goals and all the anti sodomy laws were
overturned, then they set a goal of gay marriageand they achieved that. And so there was really
(10:21):
not much left for them to do. So you then themovement expanded. So it became L-G-B-T-Q, you
know, they started doing, you know, they becameobsessed with transgender stuff and, you know,
and so now it was no longer enough thatAmericans, you know, the gay marriage is legal
everywhere. Most Americans approved of it, or,you know, at least tolerate it. It certainly
(10:44):
suddenly now you, you had to force conservativeChristians to bake cakes and design the
websites. You had to, kids had to have access inelementary school libraries to how-to manuals
for gay sex. I mean, it just, they kept, youknow, they keep moving. The goalposts is what
happens. And you see that over and over againwith these movements.
PROFT (11:03):
Well, sure. And, and, and, and why wouldn't they, right? I mean, there's, there's
always new territory to conquer, and frankly,there's always another perceived or identified
marginalized group to add to your coalition togrow your ability to essentially clear the next
hurdle, right? I mean, the Rusty Reno over ourfirst things refers to it as solidarity and
(11:26):
marginality. And that's what it is. And it, itseems to me, it helps explain why, well, wait a
second. You know, the obvious one in that'scurrent queers for Pal Palestine, right? You,
you understand how gay people would be treatedby Hamas and Palestinians generally. But, but
actually that doesn't matter because I am insolidarity with the Ivy League kids in the 10
(11:49):
cities, and they're in solidarity with the BlackLives Matter guys, looting and sacking American
cities. And so the more that we let you know,we're, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of one for
all and all for one. The more that we're alltogether, then when it comes around for our
turn, they'll back my play. And then I'll get alittle more slice of the power, I'll get a
(12:13):
little bit more of the spoils of war in thatmoment, just as they're getting a little bit
more of the spoils of war now,
TIERNEY (12:18):
Right? Yeah. The, you know, there are these alliances, you know, and, and as you've
said before, and you know, that, I mean, of theheritage of the, of this stuff about victimhood
and, you know, and, and the marginalized people,I mean, it goes back to Marx where they were
gonna rescue the proletariat, the poor workingman. Then of course, it turned out that the
communism and socialism hurt the working man. Sothey then had to start inventing new groups to
(12:42):
be fighting for, we have to find newmarginalized groups to be protecting. And of
course, when you are protecting a marginalizedgroup, you're not, you're raising money to get
yourself a job doing it. You're also fighting toget political power, so you can then I'm
protecting them and I'm going to seize all thispower for, you know, for me and my allies. We'll
gain political power and then we can start reyou know, start, start ordering other people
(13:05):
around.
We can start taking money from taxpayers andgiving it to our causes. So it's, I mean, that's
been going on by the left forever. And, youknow, you just see how this, I mean, you know,
when I first noticed this, it was, I covered thefirst big anti-nuclear march in Washington, you
know, right. A in 1979, right after the threeMile Island accident, or right after three Mile,
(13:29):
you know, Jane Fonda's movie, the ChinaSyndrome. And what amazed me, and I just, you
know, I was a young reporter in, in Washington,and I, I just dimly became aware and
interviewing the people doing the march thatthey were all veterans of the Vietnam War
movement. And, and basically the Vietnam War hadended. They needed a new gig. So they suddenly
(13:50):
on, Jane Fonda was out there doing, you know,doing her thing. And Tom Hayden, they needed a
new gig now that the war was over. So that'swhat they did.
PROFT (13:59):
Right. And it's so, so this is maybe something you have to realize. First of all,
it's all on a continuum and it's inexhaustible,right? You, you, you, you, you, it cannot be
satiated. So, you know, the, I mean the, the,the quote unquote sexual revolution as it was
termed in 1968, I'm, or the late sixties, I'm,I'm always one to point out, I mean, it was, it
(14:21):
was the, the title of the book by Wilhelm Reichand a part of the Frankfort School 45 years
earlier. So it's, it's on a continuum. And sonow we're, we're now into the gender bending
phase of this continuum. Affirmative, aaffirmative action. It's on a continuum.
Affirmative action was to create equality ofopportunity on the front end. Now we're past
(14:41):
that, and we have to create a quality of theoutcome on the backend. And, you know, that
means people need more upfront and people needmore on the backend to make sure we all end up
in the same place. They're a little unclearwhat, what that same place is, or how we're all
gonna end up there. But I mean, you, you see howthis builds upon itself over time. It's not stop
(15:02):
and start, stop and start. It's always, it's,it's, it's ongoing. And I, I think, I don't
think people have an appreciation for that,
TIERNEY (15:09):
Right? Well, it's, it is like a business, you know, businesses have to stay in
business. You gotta keep selling products. Andso, you know, when, when one product becomes
obsolete, you gotta find a new one. And so, andthat's what's been going on with them, with
they, and, you know, and they choose thesethings. I mean, the whole idea of affirmative
action and, and, and we have to have equaloutcomes. I mean, and it's an activist dream in
(15:30):
a way, because as you know, there're, you know,as long as there're differe, it's a possibility.
Differences among possibility, right? I mean,there are differences among people there, you
know, in every occupation you look in, there'ssome groups that, that are there more, but, you
know, for various reasons. And, but, so as longas there's any difference, they've got, you
know, they've, they've got a new product orsale, we've gotta help somebody, and we've
gotta, you know, pass some law, we've gotta getsome money. We've gotta do something and gain
(15:55):
some power to, to fix this problem. They'll,they'll always have it.
PROFT (15:58):
Well, and, and you've seen this, I mean, race is just the example I'm gonna use. But
because, and part because my friend Will Rileywrote a book on it called the Hate Crime Hoax.
But you know, the point is, and it's not beenmade by him exclusively, is that the, the less
racist society becomes, the more the need toinvent instances of racism to keep the business
(16:19):
going, to use your metaphor. And so, and so youhave the Jesse Smollett case, and then everybody
rushes. And hey, if that doesn't check out, thenwe just walk past it, pretend it didn't happen,
and we're onto the next one because we have tocontinue to search. I mean, it's like a shark
continuing to look for food, right? Yeah. Youjust have to continue to search for the next
opportunity. And if you, you know, if you make amistake, then you just ignore it and move on
(16:44):
because you have a lot of sort of infrastructurethat will help you ignore it and move on.
TIERNEY (16:50):
Exactly. And you know, the, the interesting thing, and, and this is something
that I learned when I was researching thisarticle for City Journal, is, I mean, I, I had
seen for a while how the activists always dothis. You know, they're always moving on like a
shark, as you say. But what I didn't, theinteresting thing too is that the, the appetite,
you know, the market for them among the publicgets better too. Because the better that
(17:14):
everything gets, the richer people become, thefreer people become, the more educated they
become, the more time and disposable income, thepe-people have to wanna do good. They wanna save
someone. And so, you know, there are fewer andfewer people who need to be saved now because,
and you know, you know, life has gotten so muchbetter for most people on earth, but you've got
(17:36):
all these people that wanna save someone.
So they're desperately. And so they'redesperately, you know, and the Jesse Smoot is,
has been said, you know, that the demand forracism vastly exceeds the supply. Right? That's
why they have to admit it. And the interestingthing that I found out was that famous 19th
century Victorian sociologist Herbert Spencer,and it's been dubbed Spencer's law. 'cause he
(17:59):
noticed that the big social movements of histime were about, you know, mandatory education
for kids, temperance laws, you know, taking careof the poor, feeding people. But what he noticed
was that these problems had all been really bad.You know, at the start of the 19 hundreds in
(18:20):
England, you know, in the late 18 hundreds, theywould, massive literacy, people were hungry,
kids were working in factories. And most ofthose problems improved drama, you know, they
went, they improved dramatically. Kids were allgoing to school.
They were learning to read. Most people inEngland were by the end of the century. But it
was at the end of the century after people were,you know, they had better incomes, better jobs,
(18:43):
they were literate, they were, and alcoholismhad declined dramatically. That's when the
temperance movement, that's when all these dogood movements happen because, and part of it is
that once things are, once most people are welloff, it becomes more glaring. Oh, there's
somebody who's left out here. Whereas beforeeverybody had that problem, but now it's just a
(19:03):
few people. So we tend to focus, and it's theway our human brains work, you know? And in the
power of bad, the book, we, we wrote about thenegativity bias and really interesting
experiments that have been done showing that asthings get better, as, as something disappears,
we start looking harder and harder for negativethings, you know, that as things get better, we
look harder to find negative things. 'cause ourbrain is so wired to focus on the negative.
(19:28):
We're always looking for threats. And so, ba sowhen these activists, you know, when this shark
goes along and it's always looking for a newthing, it's also got more and more people
willing to, you know, to buy, you know, to buythese hoaxes, these racist hoaxes and, and all
the other things that the activists are selling.
PROFT (19:45):
Yeah. And, and maybe that wouldn't be so problematic if, you know, if this was just sort
of dilettantism, but you know, it's the old sawabout, you know, beware of the man who wants to
save humanity, right? And, and, and so, sothat's what you see. And, and it is interesting
you say, sort of our brains are wired this way.The sort of the, the look, the search for
(20:06):
negativity, the, the closer we get, the fartheraway we are. Well, I then does it, does it
necessarily follow that, you know, the declineof great powers is inevitable because you
become, you know, to borrow the, the phrase, youbecome a victim of your own success. So, you
know, barring some sort of, I don't know,religious reawakening, this is the track that
(20:32):
the West is on, particularly America.
TIERNEY (20:35):
I, there's something to that where, I mean, the problem, you know, is safety, is that,
you know, that you become obsessed with everylittle threat you could face. And so you
basically stop doing anything, anything newbecause you're so afraid of, you're so aware of
something might go wrong here. I, I mean, and,and, and the problem is, I mean, it's nice that
people wanna help other people, and it's greatif they do it through volunteer groups, through
(20:58):
their personal efforts to help people. But theproblem is that these activists often exploit
that, that that desire to, to help people, butwith causes that really, that hurt society. And
they actually go against the original goal. Imean, you know, that the gay rights movement
was, was very accept, you know, became veryaccepted and it achieved all these victories,
(21:20):
and then it's gotten into this transgender stuffand, you know, trying to sterilize children.
And, and so people, it's been bad for theoriginal, and many gays and lesbians are opposed
to this stuff because it, it puts the wholemovement in a bad light. And, and it's made
people, it's been a setback in that sense forgay rights because they've embraced these crazy
(21:41):
charges. And the other thing that happens, Imean, Jane and, and I call it the, the, the
Jane, you know, the Jane Fonda syndrome or theMarch of Jane syndrome, which is, you know, Jane
Fonda, when she started, you know, she did theanti-war thing against Vietnam. Then she shifted
to anti nus and then because, and, and sheprobably did as much as anyone through her movie
(22:03):
and through her activism to cripple the nuclearindustry in the United States. And of course
that led to lots more coal plants being built inthe, you know, in the, in suing decades led to
more carbon emissions.
And so now, you know, that made worse theproblem of carbon emissions. But that gave, that
gave her a whole new cause. Her current thingnow is she has fire drill Fridays, and, you
(22:24):
know, she's a big leader against, against carbonemissions. And she helped create that problem.
She basically made work for herself doing it.And, you know, someone from the Huffington Post,
very sympathetic lefty outfit interviewed her,and they kind of delicately asked her, do you
have any second thoughts about me? You know,trying to shut down that? And goes, no, no, no.
It was the right message. You know, no secondthoughts never apologize. Just go on with the
(22:47):
gig.
PROFT (22:48):
Right? Right. After she's done tackling climate change, she'll tackle the tomahawk chop
at Braves games. She's gonna work on that next.I mean, it is remarkable. You mentioned safety
as them, and I did wanna get to your review,your book review of the Sainted, Tony Fauci
memoir on call, and just his speaking of JaneFonda being unapologetic, Tony Fauci channeling
(23:13):
Jane Fonda. He, he did nothing wrong. There'snothing he would do differently based on the
information he had at the time throughout theCovidian period. He did everything as good as it
could be done.
TIERNEY (23:26):
Y you know, it's just unbelievable what he is gotten away with, you know? And the
appalling thing is his, his book, his memoir hasbeen number one on the Times bestseller list
some weeks, you know, that. And he had noapologies in it, no nothing. And and he's been
doing this his whole career, you know, he wasthe, you know, at the start of the AIDS
epidemic, he was one of the people warning thatAIDS is gonna spread among heterosexuals. It's
(23:49):
gonna be this huge, you know, that we all haveto be terribly concerned. He helped, you know,
he, he helped Surgeon General Coop publish hisbooklet warning that heterosexuals were all at
risk. And this was a bonanza for Fauci. He gothuge budget increases in his work. But, you
know, but it's, it, it terrified the wholepopulation for, you know, many, many years.
(24:12):
I think a couple decades this went on untilpeople finally realized it's not really
spreading among heterosexuals. And he's donethis, this repeatedly. The swine flu, the bird
flu, these were all gonna be devastatingpandemics. And, and you know, he, and so it
would be great for Fauci, he'd be on the mediaall the time. He'd be getting lots of money, you
know, huge budget appropriations to deal withthese pandemics that never arrived. And then,
(24:36):
and of course he stowed, you know, he, he, hestoked so much fear. And there was always gonna
be, we have to prepare for this killer new blackplague, new Spanish flu that's gonna come, that
they started funding this research, this gain offunction research in China and elsewhere. And
now in all likelihood, the overwhelminglikelihood is that basically we, you know, that
(24:59):
it was the fear of that, the fear that Faucihelped stoke, that led to the Covid pandemic
because they, they paid for that research thatcreated the virus in the, in the Wuhan lab. I
mean, it's terrible, terrible outcome, but verygood for, for Tony Fauci. And he has no
apologies, you know, he's selling books. He is,you know, getting, he, he, he's collecting
(25:22):
ungodly fees for his lectures. It's been a greatgig for him.
PROFT (25:26):
And, and, and frankly, for the public health establishment, you haven't seen too many
people that I can think of that have offered anysecond thoughts on what we did. Yeah. Some
people say, if we had to do it again, I wouldn'tdo lockdown. So next time around, I wouldn't do
lockdowns, I wouldn't close the schools. Soyou've had some more recognition there because
(25:47):
of the overwhelming evidence of how negative theimpact was on children's socio intellectual
development combined with how little protectionthat really offered them. But for the most part,
it's been, you know, cul quietly away from thecrime scene.
TIERNEY (26:05):
Yeah, no, it, it just, you know, memory hold and, you know, the media has just been, was
so shameless and scaring people. It was greatfor them. They got big ratings, lots of clicks.
You know, there was one paper, I think it was inDenmark that actually did apologize to its
readers and said, you know, we really did, wewere wrong about this, we shouldn't have done
it. And there have been, you know, somegovernment officials in Europe, you know, have
(26:29):
said, you know, we were wrong. We did too much.We should have done what Sweden did, which is
let life go on, protect the elderly, and letlife go on for the rest of them. But otherwise,
I mean, you know, the, I mean, Rachel willAlinsky the, the CDC director, she went and
said, our problem, and, and Fauci actually, youknow, said this in his book too, that we should
(26:50):
have done more early, which is exactly theopposite of what, you know. I mean, they should
have done less, I mean, they should have donesome different things early, like really
protecting elderly people, not sending them, youknow, into nursing homes if they were infected.
But, you know, the, the, but the CDC wants moremoney and more power next time they've been, you
(27:10):
know, the WHO, the World Health Organization hasbeen, wants a pandemic treaty that would, you
know, that would, that would institutionalizethis stuff around the world. It's just appalling
how they don't pay a price for this except onenlightened programs like yours.
PROFT (27:24):
Yes. Well, we try, but I mean, but I mean, you know, that, that, I mean, actually
it's infuriating just to hear you repeat it. Thewe should have done more early, right? That's,
that's, that's sort of the throwaway, like itsounds like, oh, if we could only been more
proactive, and so we should be, be moreproactive next time by, as you say, getting more
cash in-house right now. Yeah. And, and so he,nothing specific. We should have just done more
(27:48):
generally speaking early. And he, and he talkslike a politician because that's the way that he
and so many of these public health professionalsbehaved. And I just wonder, you know, if
there'll be any hesitation the next go aroundand who knows when that may be. But any
hesitation from these institutions or, or the,the, the, the people that, from these academic
(28:11):
institutions or the institutions themselves tosay, you know, don't get over your skis this
time around like you did last time around.
TIERNEY (28:19):
Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah. I mean, the whole establishment was involved in this, and
they have no desire to do it. I mean, there'ssome hope if Republicans get Congress, you know,
in the Senate, that they would do aninvestigation. And if there's a Republican
president, then, you know, he might dosomething. I mean, there's a little problem with
Trump and that Trump, his instincts were, youknow, were pretty good on this. And he, you
(28:41):
know, he brought in Scott Atlas, one of the, theskeptics of the lockdown, but, you know, he
didn't fire Fauci. And so, you know, DeSantiswas attacking him for that justifiably, I think.
But, you know, but DeSantis isn't around. And soI don't know how much Trump wants to talk about
it, but, but Scott s told me that he thoughtTrump did get, take the right lessons from the
(29:03):
pandemic and understood what went wrong.
So if it happened on his watch, he wouldn't, hewouldn't do this again. And maybe he'll try and
put in some, you know, this project 2025 thatthe Heritage Foundation is doing that, of
course, you know, if you listen to theDemocrats, you think it's the, you know, second
coming or it's the forthright coming, right?When in fact, most of what it does is it's
trying to reduce the power of the federalgovernment. And they do have some very good
(29:25):
proposals for taking away the power of thesefederal agencies. Decentralizing, you know, one
of the reasons Fauci was so powerful, hecontrolled so much money, you know, his agency,
you know, had a, had, you know, almost amonopoly in a way on, on, on public funding for
research in infectious disease. So, you know,people were all afraid to speak up against them.
(29:45):
And there's some really good ideas that thisfunding ought to be dispersed to the states so
that no one person has that choke hold on itanymore. And basically to, you know, and, and
proposal that the government can't just declarean emergency endlessly, you know, they've gotta
justify it. They can't keep claiming thesepowers. So maybe that will change, but, but, but
they're never gonna apologize on their own topeople that made these mistakes.
PROFT (30:09):
John Tierney is the contributing editor to City Journal. He's the former reporter in
columnist of the New York Times, his book, thePower of Bad, how the Negativity Effect Rules Us
and How We Can Rule It. John, thank you forjoining us. Appreciate your time.
TIERNEY (30:23):
Thank you. Dan,
Please like this video and subscribe to thischannel if you haven't already. And please leave
a comment in the comment section. We'd love tohear your thoughts.
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