October 28, 2024 • 34 mins
DAN PROFT COUNTERCULTURE INTERVIEW: Watch the latest episode below with Michael Goodwin!
EP. 60: Michael Goodwin, New York Post Columnist.
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Election, New York City, Madison Square Garden, Elon Musk, Donald J Trump, MAGA, MAHA, Trump, Robert F Kennedy Jr, RFK, New York Post, New York, Wisconsin, Nevada, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, Melania Trump, Tucker Carlson
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
GOODWIN (00:04):
So people have just, in many cases, checked out, given up on the, on the political
system, the political process. That's why weneed a big victory here, I think, to wake people
up, to get people more engaged, to give them a,that they feel like they have a choice, they
have a voice. Their their vote matters. That tome would begin the process. You could then solve
(00:27):
problems when you have that kind of engagedcitizenry,
CARLSON (00:37):
Is because he's liberated us in the deepest and truest sense. And the liberation he
has brought to us is the liberation from theobligation to tell lies.
Donald Trump has made it possible for the restof us to tell the truth about the world around
us. And that's the single most liberating thingyou can do for people. If you want to enslave
(01:00):
people, if you want to degrade them, force themto tell lies. And they have, they forced us to
lie about everything at gunpoint. Effectively.They put people in prison for refusing to lie.
And not just the obvious lies that men canbecome women or Vladimir Putin blew up the Nord
Stream pipeline. No, honestly, he did. January6th was insurrection. They were unarmed, but it
(01:26):
was very insurrection. Not even the obviousones, but the big lie. You know what the big lie
is? The big lie is that they're impressive.That's what the big lie is, that the people in
charge have somehow earned the right to ruleover you and they haven't. And you know that
these are the single most useless people in theUnited States. They have no skills whatsoever.
(01:49):
They've got three quarters of the money and theydidn't earn it. They set up a system precisely
for the purpose of awarding themselves wealthand power when it's undeserved.
PROFT (02:01):
Welcome to another episode of Counterculture, the show that stands at the
intersection of reason and faith in the Battleagainst sentimentality. That was part of Tucker
Carlson's explanation at the Madison SquareGarden rally as to why 45 is going to be 47. Not
only is Tucker correct about the ruling classes,seething hatred for the Hoy Pallo, it is
(02:23):
becoming increasingly clear to an increasingnumber of Americans that Tucker is in fact
correct. Perhaps the comparisons of the MSGrally to a 1939 pro Nazi rally at, at the same
venue. Tip some people off that team. Kamala isnot only calling Trump Hitler, but also Trump
supporters Nazis. Trump is now not only enjoyinghis highest popularity rating to date, but he is
(02:45):
also more popular than Kamala. According to arecent Gallup survey, it does not appear that
Kamala's strategy of making Trump box officepoison and herself a safe place to land by
default has worked. This is not to say the Trumpteam can afford to play Kamala Hail Marys the
way Bears cornerback Tyreek Stevenson didagainst the commanders. It's only to say that
(03:06):
Trump is well positioned that GOP's strategicpivot on election integrity issues and early
voting appears to be paying dividends. And MAGAhas the edge in enthusiasm, but there is a week
to go. So what should we know about the timebetween here and there? For that, we turn to
celebrated New York post columnist MichaelGoodwin. Michael, thank you for joining us and
(03:26):
welcome. Appreciate it.
GOODWIN (03:28):
My pleasure, Dan. Thank you.
PROFT (03:30):
So the, the Madison Square Garden rally yesterday and I thought Tucker Carlson's
formulation, it wasn't the closing argument thatTrump is making, you know, it was good when I
was president. It can be good again. It, but itwas a reminder that, you know, this political
ruling class is inauthentic except as itpertains to their dislike of you regular
(03:53):
American people. And they're also, as he said,the lies they make you tell, including the
biggest lie of all, which is that they'recompetent or somehow impressive. And I, that's
really been the rallying cry in part the, or atleast the basis of the revolt in part for more
than a decade. And it seems to maybe c becrescendoing at just the right time.
GOODWIN (04:17):
Yeah, I I think those are all solid points. I mean, I was struck too by, by
Tucker's. I was there last night and it, itreally is quite a revolution that's taking place
primarily in the Republican party, but it'sclearly shaking up all of our politics and the
idea that the ruling party, which is sort of theuni party of, of both Democrats and Republicans,
(04:45):
is under attack mostly, of course byRepublicans. And when you see the, the tent, the
bigger tent that Donald Trump is buildingcompared to four years ago or or eight years
ago, it's really something. And it's veryimpressive. And not withstanding the one stupid
(05:06):
comedians lines last night that are getting allthe attention, I was really taken by this
groundswell of support. I mean, there's noturning back now for the Republican party. You
try to imagine a Mitt Romney speaking beforethat crowd or any of the bushes and or John
(05:27):
McCain.
So any of the presidential nominees of the lastgeneration, they're just not invited to the
party anymore. They wouldn't fit. And theirpolitics, their policies would seem so outdated.
This is a whole new thing. And when, so when yousee, of course Donald Trump at Elon Musk, RFK
(05:51):
Jr, Tulsi Gabbard, Hulk Hogan, right, this, thisand Tucker Carlson among many others, it really
is a much bigger tent than Trump constructed inthe first two elections. And I think it's
younger, it's got more vibrancy to it. It'sabout him, but it's very much, I think you could
(06:17):
see him sort of almost getting ready to pass thetorch. The there, there's a change happening
within the big change. And I think it's veryencouraging for the future of the country.
PROFT (06:30):
So I wanna pick up on what you were saying too, about the bigger tent that Trump has
built in in the last, in this campaign cycle,really as compared to previous. You know, it's
interesting too, the disaffected democrats whohave come full over that have been essentially
chewed up by their own party, Tulsi Gabbard, RFKJr, and to, to a large extent Elon Musk. And
(06:53):
then, you know, that that is almost moresurprising to me than, you know, workaday guys
in the electric electricians union or plumber'sunion coming over to Trump. 'cause that happened
in 2016, right? And, and I, and so I wonder whatthat signifies on a go forward basis. I mean,
RFK Jr was making this point the other day thatthe transition committee that has been set up
(07:15):
and was set up 90 days ago, no corporatelobbyists on that committee. And that is
completely different than anything that's everhappened before. Usually it's dominated by
corporate lobbyists. So this in, in his view, isa hopeful note that you could really have a
different style of government, differentinterest represented in a second Trump term.
GOODWIN (07:37):
Yes. I I think that's in keeping with this idea that Donald Trump has enlarged his
appeal and broadened his appeal to people whowere not part of the party before and would not
have voted for Trump before. Now we'll see if,if that holds through election day, but I think
when you look at the Latino vote, for example,the black vote, why the Democrats are so furious
(08:06):
at blacks in particular, right? Michelle Obamalecturing them, Barack Obama lecturing them,
you're, you know why you're afraid she's awoman. You're all a bunch of racist. I mean, I
think that's another distinction in the partiesthat is emerging here, that Donald Trump, for
all of his complaints and criticism, whatever,they fundamentally, it's a positive approach
(08:30):
that we can fix this as they say now in, in alot of the posters at the garden, we can fix
this. Trump will fix it.
You don't really hear the Democrats talkingtheir way. They're talking down to people. Trump
is not talking down to the public, he's talkingup to the public, but down to the Democratic
party. And I think that's a key distinction. SoI, I do believe, and I've written this, that
(08:55):
what this country needs is a Trump landslide. Ithink that would be a big rebuke to all of this
far left nonsense. The radicalism ontransgender, on race, on American history, the
weakness that the Democratic party projects tothe world. Kamala Harris says, yes, I want the
(09:17):
strongest lethal fighting force ever, but whatwould they do with it? It seems to be they're
more interested in the pronouns that the defensedepartment has than what they really accomplish.
And I think we see this with Iran, that therehas been this coddling of the biggest source of
(09:37):
terrorism the world has ever known.
And yet Joe Biden just wants to kind of keep thestatus quo. He doesn't want to project American
power in a way that would protect our allies.It's all about sort of a group hug, mute, mute
the, the opposition, but don't really defeat it.And so I, I think there are clear distinctions
(10:00):
between the parties that really, really areimportant for the future of the country. I I,
you know, Donald Trump has often said, this isthe most important election, you know, since the
founding of our country. I don't know if that'strue, but it is a very, very important election
because of the two different visions that havebeen put forth.
PROFT (10:22):
It's interesting, you, you mentioned how Trump is fundamentally a positive guy and he
really is. I mean, people who know hisdisposition beyond how it's caricatured on
certain cables, news networks know first andforemost, he's an accolade of Norman Vincent
Peele, the power of positive thinking. I mean,he has supreme confidence in his own abilities
and he recognizes that it's a team effort. He isgotta have people around him that he trusts and
(10:46):
he has supreme confidence and the team he canput together. And, and he even in indicated on
Joe Rogan, he's learned some lessons about theteam he put together. And the, and the
appointments will be different this time around.And the transition committee speaks to that
perhaps, right? So it, it's for all the part ofthe reason I think they're having a hard time
selling, you know, Trump as Hitler, in additionto just being so over the top, is it it, I mean
(11:10):
it is just this, you know, he is sort of thepositive can-do guy, the solutionist, if you
will, and they're the ones that are forebodingand lecturing and dark and the, you know, the
end is near and you know, and people wanna beoptimistic about the future.
GOODWIN (11:28):
Yes. I'm
PROFT (11:29):
Like, what's going on?
GOODWIN (11:30):
Well, that and and that's a we, I like to think, and people, people say, this is a key
ingredient of the American character is optimismthat that tomorrow will be better. Now that's of
course the human condition as well, but it's oneof the things that has distinguished America
historically tomorrow has been better. It alwayshas been pretty much in the American arc. And so
(11:57):
Donald Trump speaks to that. I mean, he's verymuch a, a creation of our country. He's very
much a creation of, you know, industry, ofworking, of earning, of capitalism, of risk
taking. I mean, yes, he's he bit of a playboy inhis youth and, and has
PROFT (12:16):
Conspicuous consumption too. Yeah, right.
GOODWIN (12:19):
Absolutely. I mean, these are not all admirable, but they are clearly American.
They're very American and it's full speed aheadall the time. And that, that I think does touch
a nerve for a lot of people. I mean, the, theenthusiasm around him is quite striking. You
(12:40):
don't hear grievance, you hear, you hear fearabout what the Democrats would do if they win
and what they've done because the attempts toput him in prison and to lock up many of his
supporters. But really what you hear is apositive view of the future. What, what can be
in this country, what we still can accomplish,what as far as we've come, you know, it's still
(13:04):
not enough. And so there's a real hunger, Ithink, for progress, whereas it does strike. I
think a lot of people, and I, and I am amongthem, that the Democrats are talking about
effectively turning back the clock. They're notso much looking to a better, brighter future.
It's that something has, something's beenmissing and the race issue still needs to be
(13:29):
adjudicated day in, day out. DEI, everyposition, every issue has to be seen through the
racial lens, through the chan transgender lens.It's a, it's a very constituent, specific,
divisive approach to the country. And so again,I think the contrasts are very striking and very
(13:51):
important.
PROFT (13:52):
Well, that's why I don't think the turn the page, the turn the page thing work because
when 80% of the country says, I don't like thestory that's being written right now, I don't
wanna find out what the end of it is, right,right. I'm gonna turn the page back, I, or put
this book down all together. And that seems tobe what they're indicating. I mean, Ru ra over
at the liberal Patriot who's a center, you know,left of center academic, I mean, he has been
(14:17):
talking about this, writing about this formonths and months about, you know, they are
pursuing policies that are so unpopular that areso tangential to people's lives and the way
they're force feeding it and shaming anddemanding and censoring dissent. I mean, that is
going to be, he, you know, his point was, youknow, you're seeing the seeds of discontent and
(14:41):
they're starting to sprout, this was back at thebeginning of the year among traditional Democrat
constituencies, minority groups and others. And,and they're, it seems to me they're approaching
full blossom.
GOODWIN (14:54):
Yes. Look, I, I think this is a very optimistic moment in American history. I mean,
I've always believed, for example, on the raceissue, that it is a shame that, that there are
not more black Republicans. And so that theRepublican party, I think, did not do enough of
an outreach, enough of an effort over the years.And so I think it's very good where both parties
(15:17):
have to fight for every vote. It's the same withlike the electoral college. It's why we, why we
have it. So you have to fight for every state.Well, I think in terms ethnic and racial and
gender groups, every party should have to fightfor every vote among those groups. So I think
(15:37):
it's very a good turn for America to see theparties becoming more balanced in that way. I
also think, of course, they're doing it withvery different messaging.
And so the distinctions are based on themessages. And when you, again, I I find that the
Republican message seems more hopeful, moreoptimistic. And I would contrast that not with
(16:01):
the Democrats, which is mostly aboutfearmongering, but also the fact that Kamala
Harris cannot explain her policies, right? Shecannot defend them or explain what they are
even. And so it, it's a, it's a strange contrastwhere we know, I think most Americans know what
those policies are by virtue of what they havebeen. But she won't discuss that. She won't talk
(16:26):
about that in a specific way. And so you're leftto kind of imagine what kind of president she
would be. That's not a very effective campaign.It seems to me. You want to give the voter a
reason to vote for you, not just that the otherguy is Hitler.
PROFT (16:43):
You, you've interviewed Trump a number of times over the years and written about it in
your column at the Post. I wonder, I wonder whatyou see in terms of his evolution as a political
leader.
GOODWIN (16:56):
Well, I think that, you know, the torch has passed as something of a cliche, but there
is some of that going on. And when you think ofJD Vance being 39 years old as his running mate,
and I think, I think JD Vance has beenincredibly articulate and a, and a calm voice in
this campaign. And I think he is, he is in someways a much better explainer of Trump's policies
(17:21):
than Trump himself in many cases. And I thinkthat's the sort of thing, I mean, you mentioned
Tucker Carlson at the maga, which my papercalled the Maga Square Garden for the night. But
it, it, it really was that kind of articulationof policies and ideas that in a way Donald Trump
(17:45):
is just sort of full force and he is who he is.And I think this, this development of having
others explain and broaden the policies in wayswhere it's, whether it's RFK on issues like food
and, and vaccines, et cetera, Elon Musk talkingabout censorship and free speech and, you know,
(18:06):
the, the outer limits of the technologyabilities to, to go to space. It's an exciting
time. And again, it's just one party that'sdoing this. It's not happening in the other
party. It's the Democrats are coming to me,seeming to me to be really a retrograde party
that's trying to recapture something. Whereasthe Republicans look like they're the ones that
(18:32):
are exploring new territories and new frontiersand new ideas.
PROFT (18:37):
You know, it, it, it'll be interesting to see if Trump does win a decisive electoral
victory. And if Republicans do gain control ofboth the House, well maintain their control and
expand the control of the house and win theSenate. And I think those things are more likely
than not to occur. Then what do Democrats dowith that market feedback? If, if they get
repudiated in a significant way as, as ispossible, then how, how do they even pivot back?
(19:03):
I, I, it doesn't seem, it seems to me likethey're, they're in a bit of a corner and I
don't know how they reinvent themselves,particularly when Kamala Harris is supposed to
represent part of that new generation ofDemocrat party leadership. I think, I think it's
gonna be really difficult 'cause they haven'tshown any indication, and it's not just Kamala
that they're willing to give up on sort of theidentitarian raison detra for their existence.
GOODWIN (19:28):
Right. No, I think that's a good point, Anne, you know, I'm reminded of the Republicans
when they did their own autopsy on, on theimmigrant issue recall after Mitt Romney and
Republican party thought that we have to dosomething. And for many in the party that meant
being more pro open, immigration, relaxing, youknow, the comprehensive immigration reform, all
(19:54):
of those ideas that turned out to be a dead end,it didn't help them electorally. And it was a
very unpopular pol policy, so within theexisting party. And so now what you have is more
of an attraction on the basis of the Americanexperience, which is prosperity. So I think, I
(20:15):
think this party is peach is preaching not onlyprosperity, but diversity of prosperity. That
the American dream is open to all who come andplay by the rules. You don't have to relax the
rules, that we're not dumbing down things toattract different, different people.
We are going to uplift everyone. And I thinkthat's it, I must say, I don't mean to be too
(20:41):
corny about it, but it really strikes me thatthis is what a lot of Americans are hungry for.
They wanna hear a positive message about theircountry. They want to hear what's possible, not
just where it's wrong, where it's coming upshort. We all know that we we're not, no one's
in denial. No one's saying America is a perfectplace or ever has been, but it's the best place.
(21:08):
And that I think has gotten lost among a lot ofDemocrats. And so that's why I think the party
is left just to throw bombs at the, at DonaldTrump and to try to find some way to scare
people about what he would represent. And sothis idea that Hillary Clinton and then
M-S-N-B-C that last night was a reenactment ofthe bun meeting in Madison Square Garden in
(21:34):
1939.
I mean, as I wrote in my column, that buildingno longer exists. It was 85 years ago. This is a
different Madison Square Garden, a differentworld. And so to try to go backwards like that,
to look backwards for those kinds of examplesand say, aha, we got you again. It, it's just
(21:54):
silly. It, it doesn't resonate. It doesn't makeany sense. It was a very heavy Latino presence
and black presence last night in the garden.Yes, there was one comedian who went, went off
course, unfortunately, but that was not themessage of the night. The message of the night
was very positive, very populist, verynationalistic, and very inclusive. So I I I
(22:22):
think the Democrats, even if they can somehowwin this election, are working themselves into a
dead end.
PROFT (22:30):
You know, it is interesting. It seems that Trump is expanding the map as we talk here
today. There's a rally scheduled in Albuquerque,New Mexico. Now there's a poll out that shows
him within one point in Virginia. I talked theother week to Robert Kaha, the pollster from
Trafalgar Group, and he said that, you know, if,if he, if Trump does expand the map, if there is
this late search that he thinks Virginia couldbe in play. And he even said New York state of
(22:54):
all places. And, and, and you know, it'sinteresting, I I've been saying for a long time,
you know, at some point with the shape these bigblue cities are in, there's gonna be a paradigm
shift. Some, some populace is gonna make a, achange the way that New York did with Giuliani
or LA did with Richard Rearden a genera a couplegenerations ago. And I just wonder, you know,
(23:17):
Eric Adams, he's not going to participate in thefascist thing and right. Dale Smith dinner and
how close Lee Elden came to Hoel and a lot ofbuyers remorse about Hoel. I mean, you know,
could New York City, New York state be somethingof a surprise coming if not on November 5th and
perhaps in the near term?
GOODWIN (23:38):
Well, I, I, it would be a surprise if it happened this time. But I think there, there
are different ways to measure these things overtime. I mean, the New York state went for a
Republican presidential last time in na 1984,Ronald Reagan's second term, that's the last
time George Pataki was the last Republicangovernor. He was elected last in 2002. We've not
(24:05):
had a Republican center or a couple ofgenerations. So it's a solid blue wall in all
the, in all the important offices. Of course,Giuliani and then Michael Bloomberg ran as
Republicans for mayor and won. But thedemographics have changed. The times have
changed. I think there is progress. I mean,what's striking again about yesterday there,
(24:29):
there were almost no protests. People said,where are the protests? Where are the protests?
I mean, the crowds were all on the streetswaiting to wave to Trump's motorcade.
I mean, it was quite something. And so, look, II, I do think if you can put Virginia in play,
and I, and I would draw a distinction there. Soin Virginia you've had a Republican governor, so
(24:52):
there's a, sure, there's a base, there's astatewide base that can elect in New York, we
haven't had that for a while. I think that mightbe the step that's necessary to, to take the
state, you know, for a, for a Republicanpresident. But I do think that this idea of New
Mexico, of other states in play, it's a verygood sign. And you know, I recently talked to
(25:16):
and wrote about my friend Ed Rollins, whomanaged Reagan's 84 campaign and where he won 49
states and five, I believe it was 520 electoralvotes, something like that. And you just, you
think of those incredible landslides that Reaganin 80 won 44 states, and in 84 won 49 states.
(25:45):
Richard Nixon had also won 49 states in 1972,which is one of the things that has always made
me Watergate. How weird is that? You just won 49states. Nonetheless, those kind of big margins,
I think they build over time and then suddenlythe dam breaks. And you look at the, at the, the
(26:08):
Democrats who were defeated in those electionsand the policies in the states that swung, it
was a sense that people were fed up, it was timefor a change. And they felt a very hopeful,
optimistic option on the other side. And that'swhen the dam broke. So I would like to hope
(26:28):
we're getting there and some of these statesnow, not because I'm a Republican, I'm not, but
I think it's better for the country when, whenevery vote is contested and when policies are
tried, when, because we see in New York City,the Democrats are so comfortable, they don't,
(26:48):
they don't feel any pressure despite problemswith the crime and the, the whole criminal
justice system, the taxes, the quality of lifeissues.
You don't, you don't get a pushback at all. Itall just falls on deaf ears. And a lot of voters
say, nothing's gonna change. What, it doesn'tmatter if I vote. I mean, we've had elections
(27:09):
for the city council where 10 and 12% is thenorm for the turnout. So people have just, in
many cases checked out, given up on the, on thepolitical system, the political process. That's
why we need a big victory here, I think, to wakepeople up, to get people more engaged, to give
them a, that they feel like they have a choice,they have a voice, their, their vote matters.
(27:34):
That to me would begin the process. You couldthen solve problems when you have that kind of
engaged citizenry.
PROFT (27:43):
Well, right, and the other thing it would produce, even if some politicians survive or
they're not up, they, if they would look at thisand say, well, it's time to make some course
corrections on some policies. Right? It wouldn'tsurprise me to see, for example, if DC takes a
hard line on sanctuary jurisdictions that EricAdams says, you know what, the sanctuary city
designation, it was fun before it hadimplications. It has implications. Now we're
(28:06):
getting rid of it. That's the sort of stuffthat's possible. You could see Yes. So, so
substantive policy change, even if not personnelchanges.
GOODWIN (28:13):
No, that's right. And, and I think it does, it does send you back to the woodshed and
you have to, you have to rethink your policies.And that's the, that's what's been missing I
think in many of these blue states. Now, theremay come a time when the red states face the
same conundrum of, you know, being toocomfortable and, and getting their way too much.
(28:35):
But we're not, right now, we're talking aboutthe blue states that are the problems, the high
tax, high crime states that are losing jobs,losing taxpayers because the government is too
big. The government spends too much. I mean, I,I've written about this, and I think you and I
may have discussed it, that New York City'sbudget is bigger than the state of Florida's
(29:00):
budget. You simply can't justify that. And theNew York State government is more than double
the size of the Florida government, despiteFlorida having more people.
So you just can't justify that other thanwasteful spending and wasteful taxation. And so
those kind of things have to be rationalized.And if if the political process doesn't do it,
(29:24):
then it's not going to get done. I mean, that'swhy we have to vote while we have to vote for
changes when things aren't working right now. Imean, when you look at Joe Biden at his, at the
height of his popularity, had a, had an approvalrating of something like 41% percent. I mean,
that's, that's anemic by any standard. And soclearly there's change, there are changes needed
(29:48):
in the federal government, the people want that,but now they have to vote for it. And if they do
vote for it, I think it will be a shock to thesystem, both at home and around the world. I
think American elections don't forget how, when,when Donald Trump won in 2016, certainly Brexit
took off as a result too. So you have thisspillover into other democracies, and I, that's
(30:13):
why I think it's time to rejuvenate a lot ofthem.
PROFT (30:17):
So I was having this conversation with Lee Smith, the investigative reporter and, and
and author about his new book and, and sort ofan, as a, I mean, it's, we're a week away. We
can do a little fantasy politics here. You know,we, he made the argument that in terms of, you
know, quote unquote Drain the Swamp or sort ofrebalancing the justice system right, to do
(30:39):
something approaching, approaching equal justiceunder the law, the most important appointment
that Trump makes will be for Attorney General.Do you agree with that or do you think there's a
position that is more mission critical toTrump's success than, than the post at DOJ?
GOODWIN (30:56):
It's clearly a very important one. I, I think Secretary of State, secretary of Defense
are also going to be incredible. I think thewhole economic team is, is going to be vital.
And of course it'll depend on some, some of whathappens in Congress, whether he can get bills
through. But there's no shortage of importantpositions. And ag is certainly a key one given,
(31:23):
given how the Department of Justice has beencorrupted by Merrick Garland. I mean, I think
it's just shameful what he has done. I don'tknow how he lives with himself, the way they sat
on the Hunter Biden case until thewhistleblowers came forward from the IRS and
even now, I, I don't think we've heard the fulltruth of the Biden family business. The, you
(31:45):
know, the, the idea that Joe Biden could not beprosecuted because he was a poor, you know, poor
old man with no memory, that doesn't begin toanswer the questions of what happened.
PROFT (31:59):
And the, and the idea Trump floated about, I'm open-minded to the hunter, to
pardoning Hunter Biden knowing that probably JoeJoe will pardon him before he leaves, just to
make sure he probably not gonna wanna rely onTrump on that. No, but
GOODWIN (32:12):
What did you make,
PROFT (32:13):
What did you make of Trump making that, you know, keeping an open mind on that topic?
Does that indicate that he, he may take the sameposture he did with respect to Hillary after
2016? Or is that just, you know, trumping coyfor political purposes in the short
GOODWIN (32:29):
Term? I honestly don't know. He, he does say things that surprise me and that one
surprised me. And yet he's not really avindictive man. I mean, you know, as you
mentioned, the Hillary Clinton thing, I mean, hemade that decision within a few days of the
election. And when he said that, that I thinkshe suffered enough or something like that, and
(32:54):
it, it didn't, it didn't work right, in thesense that the Democrats continued their
lawfare, she among them, I mean, she's, she'sjust well over the horizon now. She's gone. I
mean, some of the crazy things she says is likethe bitterness is just eaten her alive. But, but
I I, I do think it would be better for thecountry if, if we could put this issue aside and
(33:19):
if Pardoning Hunter Biden is part of a largerlook at how we fix the Department of Justice, I
think it would be, it would be an idea thatmight find some receptivity. If, if, as I say,
if it's part of this thing of we've got to putaside partisanship, we've got to work on our
(33:41):
problems before it's too late. I, I think a lotof people, again, are not looking backwards,
they're looking forwards.
PROFT (33:48):
Maybe if the he twin that with firing Jack Smith, he could sell it,
GOODWIN (33:52):
Right? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we'll lock up. I'll tell you what, we'll let Hunter Biden
go. We'll lock up Jack Smith and MerrickGarland. How's that?
PROFT (34:00):
Yeah, that's, I'd say a little prisoner exchange, if you will. Michael Goodwin,
celebrated columnist of New York Post. Michael,thanks so much for your time. Good talking to
you again.
GOODWIN (34:09):
Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you. There.
Please like this video and subscribe to thischannel if you haven't already. And please leave
a comment in the comment section. We'd love tohear your thoughts.
GOODWIN (00:04):
So people have just, in many cases, checked out, given up on the, on the political
system, the political process. That's why weneed a big victory here, I think, to wake people
up, to get people more engaged, to give them a,that they feel like they have a choice, they
have a voice. Their their vote matters. That tome would begin the process. You could then solve
(00:27):
problems when you have that kind of engagedcitizenry,
CARLSON (00:37):
Is because he's liberated us in the deepest and truest sense. And the liberation he
has brought to us is the liberation from theobligation to tell lies.
Donald Trump has made it possible for the restof us to tell the truth about the world around
us. And that's the single most liberating thingyou can do for people. If you want to enslave
(01:00):
people, if you want to degrade them, force themto tell lies. And they have, they forced us to
lie about everything at gunpoint. Effectively.They put people in prison for refusing to lie.
And not just the obvious lies that men canbecome women or Vladimir Putin blew up the Nord
Stream pipeline. No, honestly, he did. January6th was insurrection. They were unarmed, but it
(01:26):
was very insurrection. Not even the obviousones, but the big lie. You know what the big lie
is? The big lie is that they're impressive.That's what the big lie is, that the people in
charge have somehow earned the right to ruleover you and they haven't. And you know that
these are the single most useless people in theUnited States. They have no skills whatsoever.
(01:49):
They've got three quarters of the money and theydidn't earn it. They set up a system precisely
for the purpose of awarding themselves wealthand power when it's undeserved.
PROFT (02:01):
Welcome to another episode of Counterculture, the show that stands at the
intersection of reason and faith in the Battleagainst sentimentality. That was part of Tucker
Carlson's explanation at the Madison SquareGarden rally as to why 45 is going to be 47. Not
only is Tucker correct about the ruling classes,seething hatred for the Hoy Pallo, it is
(02:23):
becoming increasingly clear to an increasingnumber of Americans that Tucker is in fact
correct. Perhaps the comparisons of the MSGrally to a 1939 pro Nazi rally at, at the same
venue. Tip some people off that team. Kamala isnot only calling Trump Hitler, but also Trump
supporters Nazis. Trump is now not only enjoyinghis highest popularity rating to date, but he is
(02:45):
also more popular than Kamala. According to arecent Gallup survey, it does not appear that
Kamala's strategy of making Trump box officepoison and herself a safe place to land by
default has worked. This is not to say the Trumpteam can afford to play Kamala Hail Marys the
way Bears cornerback Tyreek Stevenson didagainst the commanders. It's only to say that
(03:06):
Trump is well positioned that GOP's strategicpivot on election integrity issues and early
voting appears to be paying dividends. And MAGAhas the edge in enthusiasm, but there is a week
to go. So what should we know about the timebetween here and there? For that, we turn to
celebrated New York post columnist MichaelGoodwin. Michael, thank you for joining us and
(03:26):
welcome. Appreciate it.
GOODWIN (03:28):
My pleasure, Dan. Thank you.
PROFT (03:30):
So the, the Madison Square Garden rally yesterday and I thought Tucker Carlson's
formulation, it wasn't the closing argument thatTrump is making, you know, it was good when I
was president. It can be good again. It, but itwas a reminder that, you know, this political
ruling class is inauthentic except as itpertains to their dislike of you regular
(03:53):
American people. And they're also, as he said,the lies they make you tell, including the
biggest lie of all, which is that they'recompetent or somehow impressive. And I, that's
really been the rallying cry in part the, or atleast the basis of the revolt in part for more
than a decade. And it seems to maybe c becrescendoing at just the right time.
GOODWIN (04:17):
Yeah, I I think those are all solid points. I mean, I was struck too by, by
Tucker's. I was there last night and it, itreally is quite a revolution that's taking place
primarily in the Republican party, but it'sclearly shaking up all of our politics and the
idea that the ruling party, which is sort of theuni party of, of both Democrats and Republicans,
(04:45):
is under attack mostly, of course byRepublicans. And when you see the, the tent, the
bigger tent that Donald Trump is buildingcompared to four years ago or or eight years
ago, it's really something. And it's veryimpressive. And not withstanding the one stupid
(05:06):
comedians lines last night that are getting allthe attention, I was really taken by this
groundswell of support. I mean, there's noturning back now for the Republican party. You
try to imagine a Mitt Romney speaking beforethat crowd or any of the bushes and or John
(05:27):
McCain.
So any of the presidential nominees of the lastgeneration, they're just not invited to the
party anymore. They wouldn't fit. And theirpolitics, their policies would seem so outdated.
This is a whole new thing. And when, so when yousee, of course Donald Trump at Elon Musk, RFK
(05:51):
Jr, Tulsi Gabbard, Hulk Hogan, right, this, thisand Tucker Carlson among many others, it really
is a much bigger tent than Trump constructed inthe first two elections. And I think it's
younger, it's got more vibrancy to it. It'sabout him, but it's very much, I think you could
(06:17):
see him sort of almost getting ready to pass thetorch. The there, there's a change happening
within the big change. And I think it's veryencouraging for the future of the country.
PROFT (06:30):
So I wanna pick up on what you were saying too, about the bigger tent that Trump has
built in in the last, in this campaign cycle,really as compared to previous. You know, it's
interesting too, the disaffected democrats whohave come full over that have been essentially
chewed up by their own party, Tulsi Gabbard, RFKJr, and to, to a large extent Elon Musk. And
(06:53):
then, you know, that that is almost moresurprising to me than, you know, workaday guys
in the electric electricians union or plumber'sunion coming over to Trump. 'cause that happened
in 2016, right? And, and I, and so I wonder whatthat signifies on a go forward basis. I mean,
RFK Jr was making this point the other day thatthe transition committee that has been set up
(07:15):
and was set up 90 days ago, no corporatelobbyists on that committee. And that is
completely different than anything that's everhappened before. Usually it's dominated by
corporate lobbyists. So this in, in his view, isa hopeful note that you could really have a
different style of government, differentinterest represented in a second Trump term.
GOODWIN (07:37):
Yes. I I think that's in keeping with this idea that Donald Trump has enlarged his
appeal and broadened his appeal to people whowere not part of the party before and would not
have voted for Trump before. Now we'll see if,if that holds through election day, but I think
when you look at the Latino vote, for example,the black vote, why the Democrats are so furious
(08:06):
at blacks in particular, right? Michelle Obamalecturing them, Barack Obama lecturing them,
you're, you know why you're afraid she's awoman. You're all a bunch of racist. I mean, I
think that's another distinction in the partiesthat is emerging here, that Donald Trump, for
all of his complaints and criticism, whatever,they fundamentally, it's a positive approach
(08:30):
that we can fix this as they say now in, in alot of the posters at the garden, we can fix
this. Trump will fix it.
You don't really hear the Democrats talkingtheir way. They're talking down to people. Trump
is not talking down to the public, he's talkingup to the public, but down to the Democratic
party. And I think that's a key distinction. SoI, I do believe, and I've written this, that
(08:55):
what this country needs is a Trump landslide. Ithink that would be a big rebuke to all of this
far left nonsense. The radicalism ontransgender, on race, on American history, the
weakness that the Democratic party projects tothe world. Kamala Harris says, yes, I want the
(09:17):
strongest lethal fighting force ever, but whatwould they do with it? It seems to be they're
more interested in the pronouns that the defensedepartment has than what they really accomplish.
And I think we see this with Iran, that therehas been this coddling of the biggest source of
(09:37):
terrorism the world has ever known.
And yet Joe Biden just wants to kind of keep thestatus quo. He doesn't want to project American
power in a way that would protect our allies.It's all about sort of a group hug, mute, mute
the, the opposition, but don't really defeat it.And so I, I think there are clear distinctions
(10:00):
between the parties that really, really areimportant for the future of the country. I I,
you know, Donald Trump has often said, this isthe most important election, you know, since the
founding of our country. I don't know if that'strue, but it is a very, very important election
because of the two different visions that havebeen put forth.
PROFT (10:22):
It's interesting, you, you mentioned how Trump is fundamentally a positive guy and he
really is. I mean, people who know hisdisposition beyond how it's caricatured on
certain cables, news networks know first andforemost, he's an accolade of Norman Vincent
Peele, the power of positive thinking. I mean,he has supreme confidence in his own abilities
and he recognizes that it's a team effort. He isgotta have people around him that he trusts and
(10:46):
he has supreme confidence and the team he canput together. And, and he even in indicated on
Joe Rogan, he's learned some lessons about theteam he put together. And the, and the
appointments will be different this time around.And the transition committee speaks to that
perhaps, right? So it, it's for all the part ofthe reason I think they're having a hard time
selling, you know, Trump as Hitler, in additionto just being so over the top, is it it, I mean
(11:10):
it is just this, you know, he is sort of thepositive can-do guy, the solutionist, if you
will, and they're the ones that are forebodingand lecturing and dark and the, you know, the
end is near and you know, and people wanna beoptimistic about the future.
GOODWIN (11:28):
Yes. I'm
PROFT (11:29):
Like, what's going on?
GOODWIN (11:30):
Well, that and and that's a we, I like to think, and people, people say, this is a key
ingredient of the American character is optimismthat that tomorrow will be better. Now that's of
course the human condition as well, but it's oneof the things that has distinguished America
historically tomorrow has been better. It alwayshas been pretty much in the American arc. And so
(11:57):
Donald Trump speaks to that. I mean, he's verymuch a, a creation of our country. He's very
much a creation of, you know, industry, ofworking, of earning, of capitalism, of risk
taking. I mean, yes, he's he bit of a playboy inhis youth and, and has
PROFT (12:16):
Conspicuous consumption too. Yeah, right.
GOODWIN (12:19):
Absolutely. I mean, these are not all admirable, but they are clearly American.
They're very American and it's full speed aheadall the time. And that, that I think does touch
a nerve for a lot of people. I mean, the, theenthusiasm around him is quite striking. You
(12:40):
don't hear grievance, you hear, you hear fearabout what the Democrats would do if they win
and what they've done because the attempts toput him in prison and to lock up many of his
supporters. But really what you hear is apositive view of the future. What, what can be
in this country, what we still can accomplish,what as far as we've come, you know, it's still
(13:04):
not enough. And so there's a real hunger, Ithink, for progress, whereas it does strike. I
think a lot of people, and I, and I am amongthem, that the Democrats are talking about
effectively turning back the clock. They're notso much looking to a better, brighter future.
It's that something has, something's beenmissing and the race issue still needs to be
(13:29):
adjudicated day in, day out. DEI, everyposition, every issue has to be seen through the
racial lens, through the chan transgender lens.It's a, it's a very constituent, specific,
divisive approach to the country. And so again,I think the contrasts are very striking and very
(13:51):
important.
PROFT (13:52):
Well, that's why I don't think the turn the page, the turn the page thing work because
when 80% of the country says, I don't like thestory that's being written right now, I don't
wanna find out what the end of it is, right,right. I'm gonna turn the page back, I, or put
this book down all together. And that seems tobe what they're indicating. I mean, Ru ra over
at the liberal Patriot who's a center, you know,left of center academic, I mean, he has been
(14:17):
talking about this, writing about this formonths and months about, you know, they are
pursuing policies that are so unpopular that areso tangential to people's lives and the way
they're force feeding it and shaming anddemanding and censoring dissent. I mean, that is
going to be, he, you know, his point was, youknow, you're seeing the seeds of discontent and
(14:41):
they're starting to sprout, this was back at thebeginning of the year among traditional Democrat
constituencies, minority groups and others. And,and they're, it seems to me they're approaching
full blossom.
GOODWIN (14:54):
Yes. Look, I, I think this is a very optimistic moment in American history. I mean,
I've always believed, for example, on the raceissue, that it is a shame that, that there are
not more black Republicans. And so that theRepublican party, I think, did not do enough of
an outreach, enough of an effort over the years.And so I think it's very good where both parties
(15:17):
have to fight for every vote. It's the same withlike the electoral college. It's why we, why we
have it. So you have to fight for every state.Well, I think in terms ethnic and racial and
gender groups, every party should have to fightfor every vote among those groups. So I think
(15:37):
it's very a good turn for America to see theparties becoming more balanced in that way. I
also think, of course, they're doing it withvery different messaging.
And so the distinctions are based on themessages. And when you, again, I I find that the
Republican message seems more hopeful, moreoptimistic. And I would contrast that not with
(16:01):
the Democrats, which is mostly aboutfearmongering, but also the fact that Kamala
Harris cannot explain her policies, right? Shecannot defend them or explain what they are
even. And so it, it's a, it's a strange contrastwhere we know, I think most Americans know what
those policies are by virtue of what they havebeen. But she won't discuss that. She won't talk
(16:26):
about that in a specific way. And so you're leftto kind of imagine what kind of president she
would be. That's not a very effective campaign.It seems to me. You want to give the voter a
reason to vote for you, not just that the otherguy is Hitler.
PROFT (16:43):
You, you've interviewed Trump a number of times over the years and written about it in
your column at the Post. I wonder, I wonder whatyou see in terms of his evolution as a political
leader.
GOODWIN (16:56):
Well, I think that, you know, the torch has passed as something of a cliche, but there
is some of that going on. And when you think ofJD Vance being 39 years old as his running mate,
and I think, I think JD Vance has beenincredibly articulate and a, and a calm voice in
this campaign. And I think he is, he is in someways a much better explainer of Trump's policies
(17:21):
than Trump himself in many cases. And I thinkthat's the sort of thing, I mean, you mentioned
Tucker Carlson at the maga, which my papercalled the Maga Square Garden for the night. But
it, it, it really was that kind of articulationof policies and ideas that in a way Donald Trump
(17:45):
is just sort of full force and he is who he is.And I think this, this development of having
others explain and broaden the policies in wayswhere it's, whether it's RFK on issues like food
and, and vaccines, et cetera, Elon Musk talkingabout censorship and free speech and, you know,
(18:06):
the, the outer limits of the technologyabilities to, to go to space. It's an exciting
time. And again, it's just one party that'sdoing this. It's not happening in the other
party. It's the Democrats are coming to me,seeming to me to be really a retrograde party
that's trying to recapture something. Whereasthe Republicans look like they're the ones that
(18:32):
are exploring new territories and new frontiersand new ideas.
PROFT (18:37):
You know, it, it, it'll be interesting to see if Trump does win a decisive electoral
victory. And if Republicans do gain control ofboth the House, well maintain their control and
expand the control of the house and win theSenate. And I think those things are more likely
than not to occur. Then what do Democrats dowith that market feedback? If, if they get
repudiated in a significant way as, as ispossible, then how, how do they even pivot back?
(19:03):
I, I, it doesn't seem, it seems to me likethey're, they're in a bit of a corner and I
don't know how they reinvent themselves,particularly when Kamala Harris is supposed to
represent part of that new generation ofDemocrat party leadership. I think, I think it's
gonna be really difficult 'cause they haven'tshown any indication, and it's not just Kamala
that they're willing to give up on sort of theidentitarian raison detra for their existence.
GOODWIN (19:28):
Right. No, I think that's a good point, Anne, you know, I'm reminded of the Republicans
when they did their own autopsy on, on theimmigrant issue recall after Mitt Romney and
Republican party thought that we have to dosomething. And for many in the party that meant
being more pro open, immigration, relaxing, youknow, the comprehensive immigration reform, all
(19:54):
of those ideas that turned out to be a dead end,it didn't help them electorally. And it was a
very unpopular pol policy, so within theexisting party. And so now what you have is more
of an attraction on the basis of the Americanexperience, which is prosperity. So I think, I
(20:15):
think this party is peach is preaching not onlyprosperity, but diversity of prosperity. That
the American dream is open to all who come andplay by the rules. You don't have to relax the
rules, that we're not dumbing down things toattract different, different people.
We are going to uplift everyone. And I thinkthat's it, I must say, I don't mean to be too
(20:41):
corny about it, but it really strikes me thatthis is what a lot of Americans are hungry for.
They wanna hear a positive message about theircountry. They want to hear what's possible, not
just where it's wrong, where it's coming upshort. We all know that we we're not, no one's
in denial. No one's saying America is a perfectplace or ever has been, but it's the best place.
(21:08):
And that I think has gotten lost among a lot ofDemocrats. And so that's why I think the party
is left just to throw bombs at the, at DonaldTrump and to try to find some way to scare
people about what he would represent. And sothis idea that Hillary Clinton and then
M-S-N-B-C that last night was a reenactment ofthe bun meeting in Madison Square Garden in
(21:34):
1939.
I mean, as I wrote in my column, that buildingno longer exists. It was 85 years ago. This is a
different Madison Square Garden, a differentworld. And so to try to go backwards like that,
to look backwards for those kinds of examplesand say, aha, we got you again. It, it's just
(21:54):
silly. It, it doesn't resonate. It doesn't makeany sense. It was a very heavy Latino presence
and black presence last night in the garden.Yes, there was one comedian who went, went off
course, unfortunately, but that was not themessage of the night. The message of the night
was very positive, very populist, verynationalistic, and very inclusive. So I I I
(22:22):
think the Democrats, even if they can somehowwin this election, are working themselves into a
dead end.
PROFT (22:30):
You know, it is interesting. It seems that Trump is expanding the map as we talk here
today. There's a rally scheduled in Albuquerque,New Mexico. Now there's a poll out that shows
him within one point in Virginia. I talked theother week to Robert Kaha, the pollster from
Trafalgar Group, and he said that, you know, if,if he, if Trump does expand the map, if there is
this late search that he thinks Virginia couldbe in play. And he even said New York state of
(22:54):
all places. And, and, and you know, it'sinteresting, I I've been saying for a long time,
you know, at some point with the shape these bigblue cities are in, there's gonna be a paradigm
shift. Some, some populace is gonna make a, achange the way that New York did with Giuliani
or LA did with Richard Rearden a genera a couplegenerations ago. And I just wonder, you know,
(23:17):
Eric Adams, he's not going to participate in thefascist thing and right. Dale Smith dinner and
how close Lee Elden came to Hoel and a lot ofbuyers remorse about Hoel. I mean, you know,
could New York City, New York state be somethingof a surprise coming if not on November 5th and
perhaps in the near term?
GOODWIN (23:38):
Well, I, I, it would be a surprise if it happened this time. But I think there, there
are different ways to measure these things overtime. I mean, the New York state went for a
Republican presidential last time in na 1984,Ronald Reagan's second term, that's the last
time George Pataki was the last Republicangovernor. He was elected last in 2002. We've not
(24:05):
had a Republican center or a couple ofgenerations. So it's a solid blue wall in all
the, in all the important offices. Of course,Giuliani and then Michael Bloomberg ran as
Republicans for mayor and won. But thedemographics have changed. The times have
changed. I think there is progress. I mean,what's striking again about yesterday there,
(24:29):
there were almost no protests. People said,where are the protests? Where are the protests?
I mean, the crowds were all on the streetswaiting to wave to Trump's motorcade.
I mean, it was quite something. And so, look, II, I do think if you can put Virginia in play,
and I, and I would draw a distinction there. Soin Virginia you've had a Republican governor, so
(24:52):
there's a, sure, there's a base, there's astatewide base that can elect in New York, we
haven't had that for a while. I think that mightbe the step that's necessary to, to take the
state, you know, for a, for a Republicanpresident. But I do think that this idea of New
Mexico, of other states in play, it's a verygood sign. And you know, I recently talked to
(25:16):
and wrote about my friend Ed Rollins, whomanaged Reagan's 84 campaign and where he won 49
states and five, I believe it was 520 electoralvotes, something like that. And you just, you
think of those incredible landslides that Reaganin 80 won 44 states, and in 84 won 49 states.
(25:45):
Richard Nixon had also won 49 states in 1972,which is one of the things that has always made
me Watergate. How weird is that? You just won 49states. Nonetheless, those kind of big margins,
I think they build over time and then suddenlythe dam breaks. And you look at the, at the, the
(26:08):
Democrats who were defeated in those electionsand the policies in the states that swung, it
was a sense that people were fed up, it was timefor a change. And they felt a very hopeful,
optimistic option on the other side. And that'swhen the dam broke. So I would like to hope
(26:28):
we're getting there and some of these statesnow, not because I'm a Republican, I'm not, but
I think it's better for the country when, whenevery vote is contested and when policies are
tried, when, because we see in New York City,the Democrats are so comfortable, they don't,
(26:48):
they don't feel any pressure despite problemswith the crime and the, the whole criminal
justice system, the taxes, the quality of lifeissues.
You don't, you don't get a pushback at all. Itall just falls on deaf ears. And a lot of voters
say, nothing's gonna change. What, it doesn'tmatter if I vote. I mean, we've had elections
(27:09):
for the city council where 10 and 12% is thenorm for the turnout. So people have just, in
many cases checked out, given up on the, on thepolitical system, the political process. That's
why we need a big victory here, I think, to wakepeople up, to get people more engaged, to give
them a, that they feel like they have a choice,they have a voice, their, their vote matters.
(27:34):
That to me would begin the process. You couldthen solve problems when you have that kind of
engaged citizenry.
PROFT (27:43):
Well, right, and the other thing it would produce, even if some politicians survive or
they're not up, they, if they would look at thisand say, well, it's time to make some course
corrections on some policies. Right? It wouldn'tsurprise me to see, for example, if DC takes a
hard line on sanctuary jurisdictions that EricAdams says, you know what, the sanctuary city
designation, it was fun before it hadimplications. It has implications. Now we're
(28:06):
getting rid of it. That's the sort of stuffthat's possible. You could see Yes. So, so
substantive policy change, even if not personnelchanges.
GOODWIN (28:13):
No, that's right. And, and I think it does, it does send you back to the woodshed and
you have to, you have to rethink your policies.And that's the, that's what's been missing I
think in many of these blue states. Now, theremay come a time when the red states face the
same conundrum of, you know, being toocomfortable and, and getting their way too much.
(28:35):
But we're not, right now, we're talking aboutthe blue states that are the problems, the high
tax, high crime states that are losing jobs,losing taxpayers because the government is too
big. The government spends too much. I mean, I,I've written about this, and I think you and I
may have discussed it, that New York City'sbudget is bigger than the state of Florida's
(29:00):
budget. You simply can't justify that. And theNew York State government is more than double
the size of the Florida government, despiteFlorida having more people.
So you just can't justify that other thanwasteful spending and wasteful taxation. And so
those kind of things have to be rationalized.And if if the political process doesn't do it,
(29:24):
then it's not going to get done. I mean, that'swhy we have to vote while we have to vote for
changes when things aren't working right now. Imean, when you look at Joe Biden at his, at the
height of his popularity, had a, had an approvalrating of something like 41% percent. I mean,
that's, that's anemic by any standard. And soclearly there's change, there are changes needed
(29:48):
in the federal government, the people want that,but now they have to vote for it. And if they do
vote for it, I think it will be a shock to thesystem, both at home and around the world. I
think American elections don't forget how, when,when Donald Trump won in 2016, certainly Brexit
took off as a result too. So you have thisspillover into other democracies, and I, that's
(30:13):
why I think it's time to rejuvenate a lot ofthem.
PROFT (30:17):
So I was having this conversation with Lee Smith, the investigative reporter and, and
and author about his new book and, and sort ofan, as a, I mean, it's, we're a week away. We
can do a little fantasy politics here. You know,we, he made the argument that in terms of, you
know, quote unquote Drain the Swamp or sort ofrebalancing the justice system right, to do
(30:39):
something approaching, approaching equal justiceunder the law, the most important appointment
that Trump makes will be for Attorney General.Do you agree with that or do you think there's a
position that is more mission critical toTrump's success than, than the post at DOJ?
GOODWIN (30:56):
It's clearly a very important one. I, I think Secretary of State, secretary of Defense
are also going to be incredible. I think thewhole economic team is, is going to be vital.
And of course it'll depend on some, some of whathappens in Congress, whether he can get bills
through. But there's no shortage of importantpositions. And ag is certainly a key one given,
(31:23):
given how the Department of Justice has beencorrupted by Merrick Garland. I mean, I think
it's just shameful what he has done. I don'tknow how he lives with himself, the way they sat
on the Hunter Biden case until thewhistleblowers came forward from the IRS and
even now, I, I don't think we've heard the fulltruth of the Biden family business. The, you
(31:45):
know, the, the idea that Joe Biden could not beprosecuted because he was a poor, you know, poor
old man with no memory, that doesn't begin toanswer the questions of what happened.
PROFT (31:59):
And the, and the idea Trump floated about, I'm open-minded to the hunter, to
pardoning Hunter Biden knowing that probably JoeJoe will pardon him before he leaves, just to
make sure he probably not gonna wanna rely onTrump on that. No, but
GOODWIN (32:12):
What did you make,
PROFT (32:13):
What did you make of Trump making that, you know, keeping an open mind on that topic?
Does that indicate that he, he may take the sameposture he did with respect to Hillary after
2016? Or is that just, you know, trumping coyfor political purposes in the short
GOODWIN (32:29):
Term? I honestly don't know. He, he does say things that surprise me and that one
surprised me. And yet he's not really avindictive man. I mean, you know, as you
mentioned, the Hillary Clinton thing, I mean, hemade that decision within a few days of the
election. And when he said that, that I thinkshe suffered enough or something like that, and
(32:54):
it, it didn't, it didn't work right, in thesense that the Democrats continued their
lawfare, she among them, I mean, she's, she'sjust well over the horizon now. She's gone. I
mean, some of the crazy things she says is likethe bitterness is just eaten her alive. But, but
I I, I do think it would be better for thecountry if, if we could put this issue aside and
(33:19):
if Pardoning Hunter Biden is part of a largerlook at how we fix the Department of Justice, I
think it would be, it would be an idea thatmight find some receptivity. If, if, as I say,
if it's part of this thing of we've got to putaside partisanship, we've got to work on our
(33:41):
problems before it's too late. I, I think a lotof people, again, are not looking backwards,
they're looking forwards.
PROFT (33:48):
Maybe if the he twin that with firing Jack Smith, he could sell it,
GOODWIN (33:52):
Right? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we'll lock up. I'll tell you what, we'll let Hunter Biden
go. We'll lock up Jack Smith and MerrickGarland. How's that?
PROFT (34:00):
Yeah, that's, I'd say a little prisoner exchange, if you will. Michael Goodwin,
celebrated columnist of New York Post. Michael,thanks so much for your time. Good talking to
you again.
GOODWIN (34:09):
Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you. There.
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