April 16, 2025 • 47 mins
This week, I’m joined by the brilliant Michelle Ackerley - TV presenter, journalist and all-round warm, wise woman - for a real conversation about what success actually feels like behind the scenes.
We chat about self-image, identity, finding your purpose (even when it doesn’t feel crystal clear), and why doing the work on yourself always pays off.
Michelle shares honestly about being in the public eye, navigating big shifts, and the quiet power of knowing who you are.
Highlights:
(1:52) Early Career and Media Involvement
(6:06) Challenges and Barriers in Media
(12:09) Personal Growth and Resilience
(15:54) Social Media and Public Perception
(26:24) Charity Work and Community Impact
(32:25) Balancing Work and Personal Life
(38:46) Embarrassing Moments and a Little Laughter
(43:17) Recommended Books and Future Plans
Connect with Michelle HERE
Connect with Dawn:
Instagram @dawnmcgruer @dawnofanewerapodcast
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dawnamcgruer
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/businessconsort/
Web www.dawnmcgruer.com
This podcast is in association with @HerPowerCommunity - The #1 Female Founders Global Community where connections flourish & growth is intentional
https://www.patreon.com/c/herpowercommunity
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podkite - https://podkite.com/privacy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hey, it's Dawn McGrewer, thebusiness growth coach and welcome
to dawn of a New Era, thepodcast where we talk all things
health, wealth and happinessand where founders share the good
and bad and ugly of being an entrepreneur.
So welcome, Michelle, to Dawnof a New Era, the podcast.
And honestly, I feel likewe've already been chatting so much,
(00:23):
like this is just an extensionof our.
This is it.
We've got a comfy seat, we'regood to go.
So we've just had a little sitoutside in the sunshine, which was
beautiful, and had a littlecatch up.
So we're actually from samearea in Cheshire, but this is the
first time we meet in person.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast because we've got so many
commonalities in terms offriends, contacts.
But also you started offstudying psychology just like me.
(00:47):
And what I would love to knowis, obviously many people will know
you now from Morning Live,Crime Watch, you know, seeing you
on TV and probably from radioas well.
How did your career start?
How did it all begin?
And how did you get into radioand tv?
So I studied psychology atManchester University, but even going
(01:08):
before that, my mum was a lifecoach, my grandfather was from Ghana
and was part of a tribe wherethey had a chiefhood.
And the chiefhood always usedto go down to the youngest son, which
was my grandfather at the time.
And the kind of role withinthe chiefhood was to be that main
communicator.
(01:28):
So you really had tounderstand, understand human behavior.
You had to be able to connectwith people and bring a community
together essentially.
And I really do feel thatthose elements almost kind of were
passed to my mum and throughme, you know, and the three of us
used to get together and have conversations.
It was just this real special,almost magical feeling.
(01:51):
And for me, growing up andkind of going through studies, I
thought, how can I capture that?
How can I almost format it andmake it into something tangible for
a career?
So I did psychology at a levelat school and I thought actually
this, there's so much in it.
I mean, as you know yourself,this, there's so much involved in
psychology.
And particularly for me, the,the human behavior side of things
(02:13):
was, was what I gravitatedtowards in particular, really understanding
individual differences, whatmakes us tick, how you can actually
connect with people on, on adeeper level.
So decided to study at university.
And in my second year of uni,one of my tutors at, he used to do
a lot of work within the media.
So back in the day when BigBrother first started and it was
(02:36):
really seen as this social experiment.
He used to go on tv, variousdifferent channels and really kind
of delve into the psyche ofthe, you know, the personalities
that were going on.
And I found that reallyinteresting, really fascinating that
actually you could combinepsychology with the media.
And I thought this is an areathat I want to explore more.
(02:58):
So in my third year ofuniversity, I applied for a work
experience placement at BBCManchester in the entertainment department.
So literally just went on theBBC website, obviously did my research
on various different programsthat I was interested in.
I'd take down the names of thepeople at the credits at the end
and think, okay, if that'stheir name, like John Smith.
(03:19):
And I put BBC.co.uk at the endof it, maybe it'll reach them, you
know, kind of trying to do abit of like research before going
into my interview.
And I was successful,successful at interview.
So I got a four week unpaidwork experience placement at BBC
Manchester in theentertainment department.
And that began my journey intothe industry, really.
(03:40):
I think it's so fascinatingwhen you think about how proactive
you were.
You know, so many barriers areput in front of us and it's just
actually having the audacity,isn't it, to reach out and do it.
And it kind of reminds me alittle bit of when I did my book.
I did the same thing.
I just went onto thepublisher's website, downloaded a
proposal and sent it off andprayed that something would happen.
(04:01):
So thinking about when youwent into it, we all have an idea,
don't we, of, you know, whatcareers are going to be like.
And then for me again, when Iwas publishing, I had this kind of
like, this is what it's goingto do for me, this is how it's going
to be.
But maybe the reality wasn'tquite the same.
When you got into obviouslyradio and tv, what was that experience
(04:21):
like?
Did you come up against barriers?
Was working in TV at that timeeasy for a woman?
What was the experience like?
I've done 20 years in tellynow and it's almost in two chapters.
So the first 10 years wereworking in production.
So I started off as workexperience and work runner, researcher,
assistant producer, producer,up the ranks, as it were.
(04:42):
And then the last 10 years todate have been in front of the camera
as a presenter.
So it's kind of almost been.
There's things that aredefinitely fluid between the two,
especially as a woman workingin an industry, the media industry.
When I very first started, Ididn't know at the Time.
Although my dad used to say tome a lot, I didn't know at the time
(05:03):
that presenting in front ofthe camera was going to be that the
place where I would end up.
When I first started, I waslike a sponge and I was taking it
all in.
And again, I think thisprobably comes especially from my
mum, born and bred inManchester and just doesn't take
any nonsense.
She'd be like, getting inthere and you're working hard and
you're getting on with that,like, right, okay.
(05:24):
I remember walking in on oneof my first days and feeling very
overwhelmed because, you know,you'd see celebrities walking around
the corridor and, you know,big BBC bosses and it's just me that's
almost trying to like, you getthis imposter syndrome, thinking,
how am I going to convincethese people that I've got what it
takes?
(05:44):
I don't even know what I'vegot because I'm day one, what am
I doing?
But I remember seeingeverybody walking around the corridors
and they had their little IDpasses, a BBC pass.
And mine at the time was avisitor's pass, work experience,
four week pass.
And I'd look around, I think Iwant one of those.
It was almost for me, like,I've got to take everything step
by step.
(06:05):
What's my goal to get to thisnext point?
The thing first and foremostfor me, for all the anxieties, for
all the overwhelm andthinking, how am I going to fit in
here?
Especially as a mixed raceyoung woman within an industry, which
I didn't see a lot of,especially at that time, to early
2000s for me, I just keptgoing back to that baseline of I'm
(06:27):
gonna work really hard here,I'm gonna learn as much as I can
possibly learn.
I was working on a documentaryat the time and I'm going to use
this time to try and reallymake some strong connections.
Going back to the psychology.
I want to understand thepeople that I'm working with, tap
into their behavior, see howwe can connect.
(06:48):
Because especially in tv, youwork with a lot of different personalities,
a lot of different egos.
And it's about trying to kindof get under the surface of that.
So in some elements it was, Iwas taking away, not taking away
from myself in a negative way,but focusing on other people and
how I can understand them moreto, to create a position within this
(07:08):
industry which was at the timequite alien to me.
So for me, that was the firstkind of barrier that I was trying
to break, have the confidenceto feel like I can be rooted in the
space through working hard.
And for me, throughout mycareer, that has always been the
benchmark.
If you're going into anyspace, if you've done your research,
you've prepared, especiallywith live tv, there's always.
(07:30):
And in life, there's alwaysgoing to be elements that you can't
control.
But if you can walk into aspace and feel like you've got the
confidence through what you'vedone behind the scenes, then that's
what can carry you through.
I think over the years, acrossproduction and presenting, you're
working in an industry that isincredibly competitive, that is evolving
(07:51):
all the time.
I mean, I work back in the daywhen Facebook had just started, you
know, it was kind of like thedawn of social media.
Absolutely.
You know, and now it'scompletely different world.
And I get a lot of peoplemessaging me saying, I really want
to work in this industry.
How can I be a presenter, howcan I be a producer?
And the thing that I always goback to when people ask me is, what
(08:14):
research have you done to getto this point?
You know, what have you looked into?
I say, well, what are youinterested in?
What would you like to do in telly?
And certain people willrespond and say, well, actually,
I like this type of program.
I watch this, this, these aremy interests.
And certain people will say,I've got no idea.
But I'd just like to work inthe industry.
(08:34):
And for me, that's not doingenough research.
That's not going to be preparation.
It's like, you've got to leadwith your passion.
Yeah.
And the people who have thepassion will be the people who did
or do what you did, where youdidn't know the email, but you researched
and found out, you took a chance.
And also it's about having thecourage to be slightly uncomfortable
and step outside of yourcomfort zone and think, well, do
(08:56):
you know what if I don't try?
Yeah.
What will happen?
It's so true.
And I think you've hit thenail on the head there.
You know, I was thinking whenI woke up this morning, I feel like
I spend most days at a certainpoint feeling uncomfortable, and
it's getting comfortable withfeeling uncomfortable.
And there are certain dayswhere I'm like, I'm done.
I just want to be cozy.
I like putting my socks on,getting warm with a hot water bottle
(09:18):
and just cozying up and just.
That's it.
You know what I mean?
Closing the door and.
But it is, especially withinthis type of industry, it's constantly
putting Every single day,putting yourself in situations where
you're pushing, pushing,pushing the barrier.
And I think now so more thanever of being an older woman in the
industry, you know, havingsocietal norms pushed against you,
(09:39):
pulled against you.
I didn't realize that when Igot to 40 and having what I deem
for myself as a.
A consistent, successfulcareer, I would still be at a point
where you get questions andjudged and judged every single day.
And these things now that, youknow, I'm getting judged for that,
I wouldn't.
In my early 20s, your age,your ethnicity, whether you've got
(10:02):
children or not.
As a woman, how do you balanceyour work and your career?
Are you doing it well enoughor not enough?
It's a constant thing.
And I think when I wasyounger, when I first started in
the industry, I thought, well,I'm young, but I know I'm going to
get to a point where I have itall figured out and I'll just wake
up one day and I'll feelcomfortable and everything will be
(10:23):
fine.
And then, you know, you wakeup and you're 40 and you're like,
yeah, life doesn't work like that.
Totally doesn't.
You know what I mean?
We were just talking about it before.
It's like one day you put adress on, it feels great.
The next day you put it on,it's not.
But, you know, you were doingwhat, four weeks filming of Crime
Watch, where it's like live tvevery single day.
You've got to show up whetheryou feel like it or not.
Yeah.
And I think what's interestingwhen you said about the judgment,
(10:47):
it's every time you go for arole, every time you go to do anything,
you know, even entrepreneurscould be speaking on stage, getting
a book, who always pop againstsomeone else.
There's always a comparisonthat we're forced into massively.
And people say it's not personal.
It is.
Personally, it is personal atthe end of the day, with you, with
me, we are our brand, we arethe business.
(11:10):
So it's.
It's you.
So it is personal, you know,and it's not.
Taking offense to that isdifficult at times, but also, I've
learned over the years, yeah,it's personal.
And also there are, like, inlife, there are going to be some
people that like me, and thereare some people that don't.
I can't change that.
You know, in the very earlydays when I was moving from production
(11:31):
into presenting, I would goand reach out to various different
people in the industry to get advice.
Some Advice was really worthwhile.
Upon reflection, some wasn'tso worthwhile.
Some people would say, look atdifferent presenters and see who
you want to be like.
And for me, I didn't feel likethat was good advice because I need
to look at myself and think,what elements of myself can I bring
(11:54):
out more?
What can I home?
What can I evolve into andfeel it from here?
Yeah, I can look at otherpeople that I admire and take inspiration
from, but I'm never going tobe them.
Yeah, this is it.
I think I always say this withclients that, you know, if they want
to get onto stages, they wantto emulate someone else's career
or brand success, it's like,think about what you are, what your
(12:17):
core pillars are, what yourpassion is, your mission and vision,
and look at all of thesepeople and then cherry pick the bits
that you feel that truly alignwith what you want to do and that
will bring out your superpowers.
And I think where people gowrong is that they try and copy.
And this is the thing, like,you're never going to be able to
be the same as someone else,and why should we?
(12:38):
Where we're put on life as ourown entities.
And I think when you look athow people judge, they always say
things like, you know, youcould have more followers, you could
have more this, you could havemore years of experience.
You could have had all ofthese things.
But all of these criticismsthat we face day to day, I think
we have to try and, as yousay, take on board, but not feel
(13:02):
that people are saying it in anegative sense.
But that's just their opinionand their perception, and it's whether
your face fits at the right time.
And it's almost like therejection piece.
For me, the more I've beenrejected, those are the times that
have put me into a catalyst ofgrowth like never before.
So true.
Literally couldn't agree withthat more.
(13:23):
And I can think of many times,you know, in my career where I've
been pitted against otherpeople and, you know, you think that
this next job is going to beyour dream job, and you're hoping
and you're hoping people arerooting for.
You're going to get it and youdon't get it, and you think, well,
that's it now.
Yeah, but actually, I'd loveto do a study on what that is that's
(13:44):
going on in your kind ofpsyche or your makeup that actually
switches up the notch almostto another gear that you didn't realize
you had and does propel you forward.
I Feel like it's an inner resilience.
Yes.
I feel like the more youcondition yourself to trying, having
the audacity, having thecourage, putting yourself out the
comfort zone, it's almost likethat just becomes your new norm.
(14:07):
So that when you don't get thething, it almost feels like, well,
the belief and the, I suppose,reference point you have in your
mind is, I go back to whathappened last time.
Well, do you know what?
Actually, last time I pivoted,I did this and I pushed on and I
got greater success.
Yes.
It's almost like the universeserves us in that way.
It's like it's not meant to bebecause we're meant for greater things.
Yeah.
(14:27):
And I think within all ofthat, if you're continuing to work
hard, it is going to pay off.
And you know, after years ofbeing in the industry now, to, to
have the evidence to back thatup, to reflect and look back on the
times, well, you, you didn'tget that.
But look what happened next.
You didn't get that.
And the consistent threadthrough all of that is not giving
up, is having faith within yourself.
(14:49):
And also for me, I thinkagain, within tv, not just relying
on external validation.
If I spent my life within mycareer just basing how I feel about
myself day to day on what afew people within the industry have
said to me, positive ornegative, it can be really unhealthy.
It's great when it's anenhancement, and it's also really
(15:11):
healthy when it's constructive criticism.
And know every program that Ido, I watch back, I ask for feedback.
You know, we have greatfeedback meetings on, on one of the
programs that I do.
I'm certainly not the personthat just thinks, well, everything's
great.
I need people to tell me thatit's great.
I need people to tell me thatwasn't so great and this is what
you could do better.
But you've also got to havethat inner belief in yourself to,
(15:34):
to know when actually I needto step it up here or know this is
going well.
And if it doesn't necessarilyalign with X, Y and Z, that's okay
because you're happy with yourgrowth and you're happy with where
you're going with it, you know.
Yeah, totally.
And it's, it's almost likechanging the internal narrative.
Sometimes we try and trickourselves into, oh, well, no, I don't
need to do that because itfeels uncomfortable.
(15:55):
But actually sometimes we needto change that narrative and switch
up a little bit and pushourselves out of the Comfort zone.
And I always like to say toclients, like when you get a piece
of criticism or something youdeem as negative, like, sometimes
that is a positive superpower.
So when someone says, oh, mygoodness, like, she's always at 100
miles an hour, that actuallycould be your best superpower because
(16:17):
you're just pushing on anddoing things and maybe you need to
rest at times and things like that.
But we are conditioned to takeon board people's advice.
And sometimes we.
It's what we do with it.
You know, it's fine to take onboard and think, right, okay, is
this good?
Is this bad?
Can I take something from it?
What is the challenge?
What's the positive?
And I think the thing is hereis that you're faced with that day
(16:39):
to day.
Like, you know, being anentrepreneur, we're faced with it
in different ways.
And I think every single womanout there will be able to relate
to the perception of whatpeople think about how we look.
So I would love to explorethat because I once, when I did one
of my first ads on Facebook,put it out and it was getting amazing
(17:01):
traction.
And then I started to gettrolled by men who were saying either
not particularly nice thingsor offensive.
And then one of the commentsthat always sticks with me, this
man was like, I hate her lipstick.
And it made me laugh so much.
And everyone's like, you know,how do you feel about this trolling?
And I just thought, you knowwhat, this is not about me, this
is about them.
Yes, but every day we arejudged in our appearance and, you
(17:24):
know, more so for you, you'rein front of the camera all the time.
What was it like starting outin your career?
Like in cbbc, did you have toconform to a stigma in the BBC?
Like, did you have to look acertain way?
One of the first presentingjobs that I got offered within tv,
and I remember very distinctlyhow the conversation went.
(17:47):
The boss at the time had said,I'm not going to get the role because
my hair is too confusing forthe audience.
Which is obviously a fardeeper conversation.
I knew exactly what he wassaying to me at that time.
And even being very young inthe industry then even before I'd
started presenting, you know,I'd felt that I'm going to come across
(18:09):
these kind of conversations.
I come across that, you know,all the time, within life.
But to have someone sodirectly saying it to me as if it's
advice was one of those realkind of wake up moments to me of,
okay, there's a couple ofpaths I can take here and some people
do conform or not.
(18:30):
And for me it was a massive or not.
If I'm going to be in thisindustry, if I'm going to feel confident
in myself in this space, Ican't be doing what you're saying
because I will lose every bitof myself.
And that is literally goingagainst who I am and what I continue
to want to be as a presenter.
And you, you do realize, Imean, every day, every time I do
(18:53):
live telly, I don't spend toomuch time, to be honest, going on
social media comments, butsome people really do like to try
and make a beeline so you cansee it in your DMS or, you know,
on your, on your pictures and stuff.
People always make commentsabout the way I look, my hair, my
facial features, my nose.
It will be something that's constant.
(19:17):
And there is a lot of, it's racism.
You know, there's a lot ofracist comments, unfortunately, that
I get and some of my, mycolleagues get.
I think over the years I'velearned to deal with it a lot better
than when I was younger.
Not that I was ever shocked byit, unfortunately, but it was something
(19:37):
that I would really kind oftake to heart.
And you know, when you feelinjustice, you want to be able to
right the wrongs.
You want to be able to almostgoing back to psychology, have a
conversation with that personand make them understand or try and
understand why they're sayingwhat they're saying.
(19:57):
That wasn't the way to, toapproach it.
For every kind of negative,hateful comment, I'm not going to
be spending my precious timemessaging back to a troll on social
media.
It's, it's pointless.
There are times over yourcareer that it definitely gets you
down.
You know, generally outsideof, of working in tv, even growing
(20:21):
up as a kid, I've never beenthe type of person that's been really
confident within my looks.
It's not, I don't wake up inthe morning, think, geez, Michelle,
you're bloody fit.
I would love to be more ofthat person as I get older.
You know, I'm trying to likeget there and be like, come on now.
But I've never been that typeof person.
I think when I was younger andI used to get negative comments about
(20:42):
my looks, I would soak it in abit more.
It would almost be like tryingto verify how I felt about myself.
But even then there's alwaysbeen something in me that would just
kind of do things despite that.
Like, yeah, there is, there'sPlenty of times.
Well, I'll sit on telly livein the morning, the monitors there
(21:03):
and I'll look.
I don't feel confident withthe way I look today despite having
a lovely experience and makeupor whatever it might be.
But am I going to smash thisshow and do a cracking show?
Yeah.
And am I going to come awayand feel good in myself overall?
Yes.
And is that going to beinfluenced by some random person
(21:23):
on social media?
No.
You know, I love this, thiswhole attitude because I think everyone
watching will relate to this,that it is hard sometimes, you know,
you get up and when we'reputting ourselves in the public eye,
I mean, I remember back to atime where social media didn't even
exist.
Like my whole dawn of a new era.
I feel like I started mybusiness when the Internet began.
(21:44):
My first agency.
And one of the things is I gota fellowship from the Royal Society
of Manufacture Arts andCommerce and I was the youngest person,
the youngest fellow and I wasa woman and that was very much pointed
out.
And what it was for wasgetting businesses into social media.
So I laugh now.
It's about this whole kind ofthing where visibility piece is constant
(22:07):
24 7.
Like kids come home fromschool, they can't get away from
it.
I used to come home fromschool and you were in a safe zone.
Yeah, yeah.
You didn't have any contactapart from, you know, trying to get
on the phone when someonewasn't trying to use the Internet.
And those days did happen.
But what we're in now is thisconstant kind of like visibility
piece.
And I think with personalbranding it feels like you have to
(22:28):
be on 24 service and I thinkthat's very difficult because there's
some days that you just don'tfeel like doing it, but you have
to get up and do it again.
And we were talking about thisoutside in the sunshine.
But when you grow up, we arefaced with things all of the time
as women that we have to do,but we take on board sometimes some
(22:48):
of the societal norms and wedon't even realize that, you know,
we've been conditioned thatmuch that we're doing it.
We, we disempower people.
Like I was just saying to youbefore that, you know, I've gone
for a day to London and I'vesaid to my partner, here's your lunch.
You know, he's a 50 odd yearold man, I think he can probably
find.
But I see myself going intothis, you know, and disempowering
people.
(23:09):
Where do you sit in Terms ofwhere you think societal norms have
got a positive now, like howwomen are embracing them and using
them in a good way.
Do you think we're dismantlingsome of the stigma?
Do you think we are forging forward?
I really do think we are.
And for all, you know, thenegativity that we've been talking
about regarding social mediaand the trolling, I think this is
(23:32):
where social media canactually come into its own.
Because again, for all the.
The stress that we do put onourselves as women, to be doing things
all of the time and when itcomes to social media, to be posting
about our businesses, to beposting about what we're doing on
live television, to be tellingeveryone about a new series, this,
this, this and this, as wellas our home life.
Look, I'm a normal person.
I'm doing this too.
It's a lot.
(23:53):
But it's also a platform wherepeople can, if they want to be, be
really honest and open abouttheir views, their opinions, and
communicate with other women,with societies, and actually, as
you say, break those norms down.
And that is the one thing thatI do really like about social media,
to be able to have thatconnection, even have that connection
(24:15):
over a platform with yourfriends that you've not seen for
a while, with people that youdo align with and that you relate
to.
And I think that actually it's.
What do they say, A risingtide lifts all the ships.
It bolsters us all and itmakes us question ourselves as well.
You start seeing things inother people and thinking, actually.
Yes.
Or reading things and thinkthat makes sense.
(24:36):
I hadn't thought about that before.
Yes, I'm going to.
I'm going to push theboundaries in this way.
I'm going to go home and havea conversation with my husband about
that or speak to my kids about that.
In that respect, it does pushthings forward.
And I think, you know, we'reall evolving all the time.
We don't know everything, youknow, and there are habits that we
(24:57):
all have, like we were talkingabout and those gender roles within
society.
I'm very much a person that will.
As soon as I walk in my home,I'm like, right, what needs doing?
I'd be like, putting thewashing on, taking the drying out,
dah, dah, dah.
Empty the dresser.
And then my partner is verygood at coming in, sitting down and
having a moment.
Minus two.
Is that strange?
Like, I need to take a leafout of this book.
(25:19):
Like, what would happen if weflip the script here?
And I'm like, right within I'mjust sitting right down and he'd
probably look at me think,well, that's not like you, Michelle.
But I like it.
You know, there's, there'sways that we can kind of push our
own boundaries and not justlook at other people and think, well,
why are you doing that?
Like that?
You know, it's interestingwhen you start making changes within
yourself, what actually startsto happen around you and how you
(25:43):
can move forward from that.
And that's where I think,yeah, social media and having that
kind of awareness and wantingto question yourself is so important.
Yeah.
Because social media, I feel,can be a real, true vehicle of change.
And I love social media forthat aspect.
I'm quite good at zoning outthe white noise and I just kind of
embrace the things I want toget involved with.
(26:04):
And I've always been reallypassionate about building kind of
community that I want onsocial media.
So for me, it's like thenumbers are almost vanity, but the,
the quality of the people andit's like I literally messaged you
on Instagram and, you know,here we are today in London.
This is what I love aboutsocial media, that we can just reach
(26:24):
out to people, we can havethose conversations now.
One of the things that I knowabout you is that you are very passionate
about charity.
And I actually saw you speakat SmartWorks event.
Of course, it was a fizz andfashion event.
And you're one of the longeststanding ambassadors, I think, for
Smart Works.
And we're both very passionateabout this charity.
(26:45):
Tell me a little bit about howyou got involved in it, because it's
an amazing charity.
It really is.
It really is.
And the whole focus on thecharity is to inspire, empower women
to be the best version ofthemselves, get them a foot on the
ladder.
And it's, it's amazing workingwith incredible women.
And actually it was through anincredible woman that I ended up
(27:06):
working with the charity.
So one of my old bosses withinBBC, who was actually the person
that changed my contract onceI'd done my four week unpaid work
experience placement.
Oh, I love this.
She was the one that actuallycalled me into her office and said,
michelle, I would like to giveyou a fixed term contract as a runner
(27:27):
in BBC Manchester.
It was on, you know, on thefourth floor in Manchester, Oxford
Road, in the entertainment department.
And I remember sat on a sofa,like nearly in tears.
And, you know, she was, shewas incredible, you know, and she
could obviously see somethingwithin me and she was an incredible
mentor to have.
And this is going back 20years now, this is like back in 2005.
(27:50):
We have kept in touch ever since.
We're friends.
And I'd always said to her,even throughout my.
My time at the BBC, I'd alwaysbe going to her for advice and say,
caroline, I'm looking to do.
Set up some kind of mentorshipscheme, or what else can I be doing
within the BBC that can helpother people that might be coming
in, you know, and, and how canI help with their progress?
(28:11):
So she knew I was alwaysinterested in, in trying to help
others and in different ways,and she'd been a part of.
Of the charity, so it wasactually through her that she said,
michelle, do you want to cometo one of the events with me?
Because I think actually beinginvolved in this would be right up
your street.
So she introduced me to Janfrom, from the charity and we had
(28:31):
a, you know, a lovely lunch,the three of us, and then it literally
continued from there.
You know, I've involved invarious events, workshops, talks,
and you were talking aboutcommunity earlier.
That's what this charity isfor me.
It's an incredible community.
When you're in a space, as youknow, with many women, women who
(28:53):
have a voice, but women whoare in the process of finding their
voice and then women thatchoose to use it within that space
and tell you their story givesyou goosebumps, it empowers you and
it's almost.
It's like ping pong.
It's like throwing a ball ina, I don't know, bouncy squash court
and you just see it bouncing,bouncing back.
All this energy is kind ofbouncing around the room and we're
(29:13):
all helping each other.
It was lovely to.
To think how that's actuallyall come from full circle through
Caroline almost paying it forward.
And I've been able to helpother people through that.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think with the charity,one of the things that I love about
it is that when you thinkabout how dressing makes us feel,
and the fact that these womenwho were going for interviews and
(29:34):
there was one woman who spokeat that event that we met at, and
I think she'd been to like, 55interviews, something absolutely
crazy.
She come out with an amazing job.
Yeah.
Couldn't get a new job.
Yeah.
Came to Smart Works, got thisamazing sort of styling and, you
know, this whole new outfitand then they do coaching as well.
Yes.
And then her next interviewgot the job.
(29:55):
And I think it's.
It's these things that we see,you know, charities like that, the
impact that they make.
And I Think as you know,personal brands, founders, presenters,
whatever, we can all do morein those spaces and it's to do a
little good in the world, youknow, to give back.
I think that is where trueenrichment of life kind of comes
(30:16):
from.
What would you say on a day today lights you up?
What makes Michelle really happy?
It's generally actuallyfeeling a part of a community, of
a part of a society and, andhelping people, you know, trying
to make a difference within myrole as, as a producer and as a presenter.
(30:37):
I have various mentees now so,you know, people might reach out
to me on social media orinternally through the BBC.
And I love spending timeactually helping others.
And it's not just about meoffering advice and saying, well,
I did this, this and this.
It's actually really takingthe time to listen, to hear people
(30:57):
and to share stories.
And I always come away fromthat experience feeling enriched
and feeling full, feelingfulfilled and knowing that that other
person can feel the same.
And I think within that, asI've gotten older, another thing
weirdly that makes me happy isactually feeling confident enough
(31:20):
to be vulnerable in certainspaces and being honest.
And again, going back tosmartworks, the charity, you know,
when you, you're listening towomen speak, they're talking about
the hardships in their life,they're connecting you with you on
a level that is deeplypersonal, but sharing it in a way
that we are all being able tobenefit from and go and help other,
(31:41):
other people.
And I just think to get to apoint where whatever you're doing,
you're getting up in themorning and you're getting on with
your day, but you think, okay,I know the things that are going
to happen that are within mycontrol, they're going to be other
things that will happen todaythat are without, you know, out of
my control.
But I'm going with it.
There are times when I'll bevulnerable and honest and open and
(32:04):
have to communicate and that,that's a really rich kind of beautiful
tapestry to have.
You know, it kind of gives youthat confidence, like it's okay,
you know, and it's okay.
And I think what I love aboutthis conversation is the fact that
nobody has got it planned andnow 24, 7, there doesn't reach a
point in your 20s, 30s, 40s,whenever that you wake up and you
(32:27):
think, yep, I nailed it.
You know, and I actuallythought that they did.
I didn't.
I'm not going to lie.
I'm not going to lie.
I thought too.
And you know, the thing herewas is I thought in my life that
I would follow some of thesocietal norms.
I totally didn't.
I mean, not really aconformist anyway.
I've always challenged thestatus quo.
But I think what is reallyinteresting is when I reflect back
(32:49):
on some of the things I did,I've taken quite big risks and I
think some of the things in mylife defined that.
I actually lost six people insix months just when I was starting
my first business at 21.
But that changed my wholeoutlook on life and it made me pretty
risque in the things that Idid because I was like, do you know
what?
(33:09):
I'm still here.
I've got my health.
And my dad used to say, dawn,it's character building.
Yeah.
And then I did my first bookcalled Character Building, and that
was for cancer research.
But every time I think aboutsomething, I think, what would happen
if I don't do it?
So what would be your bestpiece of advice for anyone listening
who is thinking, do you know what?
I just want to level it up alittle bit.
(33:30):
I want to push a little bit harder.
Like, I've got this goal, I'vegot this dream.
What would we say today?
What would be your advice?
You know, it's so funnybecause I talked to my mum about
this a lot and she just says,just do it.
We could spend a lot of timenow sitting down and going through
the minutiae of what you needto do here, there, then next.
But actually, the first thingyou need to do is reset your mind.
(33:51):
The first thing needs to be anaction point.
Just do it.
It's almost like not puttingthe snooze button on 10 million times.
When you wake up in themorning, just get up, get up, switch
that light on, drink a glassof water, your body's activated,
you're engaged.
So that, that would be myfirst point of advice, actually try
and declutter your mind of allthe reasons why this potentially
(34:15):
couldn't work.
If this is something thatyou're really passionate about, if
it's a dream that you've had,constantly tell yourself that you
are going to do it.
That needs to be the firstthing in your mind.
And then you start working outthe process.
I mean, for me, like I said,research has always been the key
for me.
Preparation, taking time toreally understand.
(34:37):
If I'm going to do a live showfirst thing in the morning, I'll
be spending the night beforereading through the briefs.
I'll be going through thecontributors that I'm interviewing.
I'll be finding out the littlepieces of information that people
don't really know.
What is it that's going to setme apart?
What is it that's going tomake this conversation for them feel
like it's something on a.
On a different level?
(34:57):
So what can you be doing?
Because actually, you realizea lot of people don't do that.
A lot of people don't either.
Preparation and don't do theresearch, you know.
Yeah.
And then the thing is here islike, I guess your goal is really
about the communication.
It goes back to what you saidbefore, making sure that that first
person is, like, really seen,like, really heard and really noticed.
And they actually kept.
(35:18):
I think that you've hit thenail on the head, having authenticity.
And I think when I watchtelevision, you can see with certain
people, it comes through the camera.
You know, you can see peoplethat genuinely care and are authentic.
And isn't it a nice feelingwhen you go into a room and you.
You feel that?
Like, when I met you and wewere chatting, sat outside, I was
(35:38):
like, well, this is lovely.
I can feel it's different.
You can feel that difference.
Yeah.
And if you have got that, Imean, that just takes you.
You're not trying to convinceyourself basically, as well as everybody
else, you've already got thatfaith and you care and you feel.
And you're looking forward tolistening and hearing that just kind
(35:59):
of.
You're floating then, youknow, and this is it.
I think it's a bigcommunication thing.
I love what you say about thecommunication part because for me,
when I first started, I foundit really difficult being so young
in business.
A lot of rejection, a lot ofkind of stereotypes, like, you know,
a woman working in tech andthings like that.
But I didn't really let itbother me.
But one of the things that Iwas so absolutely certain on every
(36:22):
single day was I was justgoing to communicate in the way that
I wanted to be communicatedwith, almost like doing to others
have done to yourself.
And that has been honestly thebiggest foundation for my success
because it's about people.
Like, if you gel with people,everything seems to flow and everything
feels nice and theopportunities come, and it's almost
like sowing a seed ofhappiness every day, showing gratitude.
(36:45):
And what you said about thewhole just kind of get it done.
I love this principle becauseI always say to people, when they
say, dawn, I just need a plan.
You don't need a plan.
You just need a vision.
You need to start breakingdown some of those actions and start
implementing, like, just getsomething in Motion.
Yes.
Because I love a bit of crazy chaos.
Some of the things that havebeen my biggest growth has been things
(37:05):
that I've just gone, you know what?
I'm just going to do that.
Yeah.
And I get it out there beforeI'm even certain of how it's going
to look and work.
But it just feels right.
That's the thing.
And the crazy chaoticness kindof comes together in there, you know,
it's kind.
Of creative, you know, and.
And it's genius, isn't it?
And I think there's reallysomething in that, in terms of our
(37:26):
psyche and.
And how we're built physiologically.
I even know if I'm reallytrying to make myself go to the gym
in the morning.
You can tell yourself everysingle reason not to go again.
Alarm.
Don't snooze it.
I will put my gym kit on assoon as I'm out of the bed.
So my trainers.
I'm walking around in my trainers.
And it's even just having yourbody in the gym kit clothes.
(37:50):
Suddenly something sparks.
Well, I'll go.
Even if I do five minutes,it's better than nothing.
There's perfect action.
Exactly.
At least we're doing something.
Yes.
And I always say, like, youknow, you can't condition the habit.
You have to change theenvironment, first of all.
So if your environment, youknow, is kind of like you get up
in the morning and you're inyour kind of like sitting down and
(38:11):
laying around before you do it.
Like, for me, I just have todo a reforma Pilates every single
morning because it sets me up.
I literally don't think thealarm goes off.
I get up and I'm in Pilates mode.
Yeah.
Because the environment for mewas like, well, I know that I will
flow better.
Yes.
I am doing this thing.
So my environment was put thephone somewhere that I've got to
(38:33):
get up and do it.
Yes.
Okay.
And then once I was kind of inthat whole motion I was kind of doing.
And then the first thing wouldbe like, right, get an espresso,
do the things I like doingthat get me on that journey, and
get me at the start.
So we're onto my favorite partof the podcast now, the bit where
you share your embarrassing story.
Now, I ask every guest to dothis, and it's my favorite.
(38:55):
And I was just telling youabout some of the ones before.
And if you think about whatwas the craziest, most embarrassing
time, like, what is the story?
You've got to share it.
Oh, my God.
You know What?
Especially doing livetelevision every day, I feel like
there are embarrassing momentsall the time because sometimes it's
(39:15):
crazy.
Like, for all the preparationand the research that you do, sometimes
your mind just kind of goesaway with itself.
You know, the amount of timesI've been like, hello, and welcome
to such and such.
Happy Wednesday.
No, Michelle, it's Friday.
Okay, right, we'll reverse that.
But actually, it's refreshingbecause you're like, people make
mistakes.
But on one program I do onMorning Live, we have a section of
(39:37):
the show that's calledStrictly Fitness at the end.
So we have the Strictly ComeDancing dancers come on and they
teach us some exercise so theaudience at home can kind of get
involved.
I absolutely love it.
You know, it's a chance for us all.
Just have a bit of fun, have a dance.
Da, da da.
So I'm always fully committed.
You know, we take our shoesoff and get stuck in.
(39:57):
So we're doing variousexercises, lifting our arms, you
know, doing the paso doblemove or the cha cha or whatever.
Multiple people have said,michelle, watch the dog, watch the
dog, watch the dog, Michelle.
Michelle the dog.
Like, I'm just looking at the autoc.
You're like, oh, I've got 10seconds to kind of sound out.
See, tomorrow, like, laughingand smiling, having a whale of a
(40:17):
time in my own world.
And the next minute I turnaround to do this move, thinking,
this move is going to look.
I'm going to be bidded forStrictly because this move is going
to look great.
Absolutely.
Stack it, roll over this.
This beautiful goldenLabrador, nearly face plant the table.
Whilst everyone goes silent inthe studio.
Like, is she okay?
(40:39):
Issue.
I'm thinking, is that, have Ikilled this dog?
Live on, is the dog okay?
Thankfully, Dolly the dog wasabsolutely fine.
I managed to get up justbefore the show is going.
I'm okay, everything's fine.
It was the most embarrassingthing ever because it's like you're
just thinking, this could goreally badly.
(41:00):
And then everyone's thinking,is she all right?
Can she talk?
You know, if Harry Hill's TVburp was still going or you've been
framed, I feel like I'd get200 quid cash from Jeremy Bead.
Or can we.
Can we find this on YouTube?
Yeah, well, gething keepsbringing out.
Every time I'm back, it'slike, oh, she's okay, she's okay.
Thankfully, Dolly the dog's okay.
(41:21):
We had to do a thing on socialmedia afterwards with me sat on the
sofa with Dolly the dog.
Like, we're still here,everything's fine.
The amount of messages.
Thank you, thank God.
Like, you know, honestly,royalties, animals, it.
Was like, we don't.
We've, we've.
I think we've stopped dancingwith the dogs at the.
Well, I've stopped dancingwith the dogs at the end.
I think the studio stopped youdancing with it all.
(41:43):
It's like, oh, my word.
And especially on programs,you know, Morning Live, it's a magazine
show.
So you're talking about.
We talk about anything fromreal kind of consumer hardcore topics
to what you're going to dowith your rhubarb this summer.
So to kind of toe the line andthen sometimes things happen, you've
just got to.
It's just a very human, real moment.
(42:04):
Thankfully I managed to justdo my piece to camera, you know,
half on the floor on my butt,saying goodbye.
And you just got to move on.
This is it.
I mean, there's sometimeslike, you know, I just think back
to some of the things I'vedone and I'm one of these people
who's like so clumsy.
But also predictive text, theamount of text I've sent.
Yeah.
And someone asked me whatelectrolyte I was taking.
(42:25):
I meant to say Humantra, whichwas this amazing brand.
Oh, yes, it is lovely.
Lovely.
Sent it.
Look back on it and it pickedup and it said, I've just finished.
Not Humantra, Human trafficking.
Sent this to my client.
I mean, like, if there was aworst thing that could have sent,
that was it.
So for me, these things likehappen every single day.
Yeah.
(42:45):
But I love a good story.
And you know what I'm going to do?
I'm going to go right onYouTube now.
I'm going have a look at this.
Dolly the dog there.
Made gifts out of it and everything.
This is the thing about.
You can't live it down now onsocial media, can you?
Do you know what I mean?
That's going to be what I'mremembered for, Tripping over the
dog.
It's true.
So one of my favorite books atthe moment, and I honestly feel like
(43:07):
it's been life changing, is abook called the Courage to Be Disliked.
And it, honestly, I read onholiday, it was one of those books,
you know, that really get you.
Is there a book that you canrecommend that has, like changed
your life?
There's a couple, actuallythat I'm reading at the minute.
One called Worthy by JamieLynn Kerner and another one by a
psychologist friend by OwenO'Kane called Addicted to Anxiety.
(43:32):
And it's brilliant.
Heard really good things about that.
It's really, really good.
There's certain books that Iwill take around with me, you know,
for a, for a train journey,let's face it, we do a lot of.
And dip in and dip out.
I almost see them as manuals.
You know, I'll read a book andthen I need to go back to it and
that will like kind ofbookmark pages and go through again.
(43:55):
My first recommendation wouldbe Addicted to Anxiety because there's
some real standout tangiblebits of advice that you can take.
And also Owen, especiallywithin this book, he kind of delves
into his own upbringing andhis anxiety and how he's overcome
it.
So you actually not justgetting advice from a psychologist,
(44:16):
you learn about the personbehind the psychology.
Yeah.
And you get different kind of connection.
Yes.
So what does the future holdand how can people connect with you,
Michelle?
Well, I'm on social media, I'mon Instagram at Michelle Ackerley.
The future for me is.
Well, I got married last yearso it's our first year wedding anniversary.
(44:37):
When you arrive, the firstthing, oh, you arrived.
And I saw someone kiss and Ithought that's that beautiful.
And I thought oh, that's Michelle.
Pleasure.
You know what it's continuingto have or trying to forge a decent
work life balance.
I think for me, especiallywithin tv, one of the questions that
people always ask is what's next?
(44:58):
What's the five year goal?
What's the.
And that used to be somethingthat I would almost obsess about
and not actually think aboutthe journey that, that I'm on.
I think it's important to havegoals but it's also kind of being
in the present and I have tosay that actually I'm really enjoying
my journey at the minute.
Be more Morning Live.
They've just been nominatedfor a bafta.
(45:19):
So we find out in May.
I head to Sacramento in May aswell to do the World's Strongest
Man.
That'll be fun.
Which would be fun.
Just a lot of big burly strong men.
I get neck ache doing thatthough to be fair dawn, because they're
all so tall.
I'm there with a microphone.
Need to do like my neckexercises by the end of the day.
And you don't want to getstuck in a lift with them because
that's happened with them as well.
(45:39):
Five strong men stuck in a lift.
It's.
Yeah.
All be trapped.
Positive experience.
Well, not when they're.
They all got very nervous.
I'm the one trying to sort thesituation out.
They're like, oh my God, I'm claustrophobic.
I don't like this.
Guys, don't worry, it's allgonna be fine.
I've got this rest the alarm,probably be an hour or so.
We'll be fine.
But no, it's just, yeah.
(46:00):
Creating that good balancebetween work and home life, spending
lots of.
With family.
And I always say to my mom,it's having things to look forward
to, whether that is justactually enjoying a time, going for
a lovely walk with.
With friends and family,cooking something nice.
It's just kind of having thosepresent moments to really feel enriched
(46:23):
is.
Is something that.
Yeah.
Means a lot to me at the minute.
Well, thank you for this chatand you're off to go and have a lovely
lunch in the sunshine.
In the sunshine.
No, it's a lovely day today with.
Your husband, so enjoy andthank you so much.
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to dawnof a New Era, the podcast brought
to you in association with theHer Power Community.
(46:43):
This initiative was founded bymyself and it's all about empowering
female founders to recognizetheir limitless potential and pursue
their ambitions with confidence.
Now, there is less than 1.8%that goes into investing in female
founded businesses and we arehere to make positive change.
So come and support us onInstagram at Her Power Community
(47:06):
and find out more about whatwe're doing to support female founders
to scale and grow their businesses.
Hey, it's Dawn McGrewer, thebusiness growth coach and welcome
to dawn of a New Era, thepodcast where we talk all things
health, wealth and happinessand where founders share the good
and bad and ugly of being an entrepreneur.
So welcome, Michelle, to Dawnof a New Era, the podcast.
And honestly, I feel likewe've already been chatting so much,
(00:23):
like this is just an extensionof our.
This is it.
We've got a comfy seat, we'regood to go.
So we've just had a little sitoutside in the sunshine, which was
beautiful, and had a littlecatch up.
So we're actually from samearea in Cheshire, but this is the
first time we meet in person.
So thank you for coming on thepodcast because we've got so many
commonalities in terms offriends, contacts.
But also you started offstudying psychology just like me.
(00:47):
And what I would love to knowis, obviously many people will know
you now from Morning Live,Crime Watch, you know, seeing you
on TV and probably from radioas well.
How did your career start?
How did it all begin?
And how did you get into radioand tv?
So I studied psychology atManchester University, but even going
(01:08):
before that, my mum was a lifecoach, my grandfather was from Ghana
and was part of a tribe wherethey had a chiefhood.
And the chiefhood always usedto go down to the youngest son, which
was my grandfather at the time.
And the kind of role withinthe chiefhood was to be that main
communicator.
(01:28):
So you really had tounderstand, understand human behavior.
You had to be able to connectwith people and bring a community
together essentially.
And I really do feel thatthose elements almost kind of were
passed to my mum and throughme, you know, and the three of us
used to get together and have conversations.
It was just this real special,almost magical feeling.
(01:51):
And for me, growing up andkind of going through studies, I
thought, how can I capture that?
How can I almost format it andmake it into something tangible for
a career?
So I did psychology at a levelat school and I thought actually
this, there's so much in it.
I mean, as you know yourself,this, there's so much involved in
psychology.
And particularly for me, the,the human behavior side of things
(02:13):
was, was what I gravitatedtowards in particular, really understanding
individual differences, whatmakes us tick, how you can actually
connect with people on, on adeeper level.
So decided to study at university.
And in my second year of uni,one of my tutors at, he used to do
a lot of work within the media.
So back in the day when BigBrother first started and it was
(02:36):
really seen as this social experiment.
He used to go on tv, variousdifferent channels and really kind
of delve into the psyche ofthe, you know, the personalities
that were going on.
And I found that reallyinteresting, really fascinating that
actually you could combinepsychology with the media.
And I thought this is an areathat I want to explore more.
(02:58):
So in my third year ofuniversity, I applied for a work
experience placement at BBCManchester in the entertainment department.
So literally just went on theBBC website, obviously did my research
on various different programsthat I was interested in.
I'd take down the names of thepeople at the credits at the end
and think, okay, if that'stheir name, like John Smith.
(03:19):
And I put BBC.co.uk at the endof it, maybe it'll reach them, you
know, kind of trying to do abit of like research before going
into my interview.
And I was successful,successful at interview.
So I got a four week unpaidwork experience placement at BBC
Manchester in theentertainment department.
And that began my journey intothe industry, really.
(03:40):
I think it's so fascinatingwhen you think about how proactive
you were.
You know, so many barriers areput in front of us and it's just
actually having the audacity,isn't it, to reach out and do it.
And it kind of reminds me alittle bit of when I did my book.
I did the same thing.
I just went onto thepublisher's website, downloaded a
proposal and sent it off andprayed that something would happen.
(04:01):
So thinking about when youwent into it, we all have an idea,
don't we, of, you know, whatcareers are going to be like.
And then for me again, when Iwas publishing, I had this kind of
like, this is what it's goingto do for me, this is how it's going
to be.
But maybe the reality wasn'tquite the same.
When you got into obviouslyradio and tv, what was that experience
(04:21):
like?
Did you come up against barriers?
Was working in TV at that timeeasy for a woman?
What was the experience like?
I've done 20 years in tellynow and it's almost in two chapters.
So the first 10 years wereworking in production.
So I started off as workexperience and work runner, researcher,
assistant producer, producer,up the ranks, as it were.
(04:42):
And then the last 10 years todate have been in front of the camera
as a presenter.
So it's kind of almost been.
There's things that aredefinitely fluid between the two,
especially as a woman workingin an industry, the media industry.
When I very first started, Ididn't know at the Time.
Although my dad used to say tome a lot, I didn't know at the time
(05:03):
that presenting in front ofthe camera was going to be that the
place where I would end up.
When I first started, I waslike a sponge and I was taking it
all in.
And again, I think thisprobably comes especially from my
mum, born and bred inManchester and just doesn't take
any nonsense.
She'd be like, getting inthere and you're working hard and
you're getting on with that,like, right, okay.
(05:24):
I remember walking in on oneof my first days and feeling very
overwhelmed because, you know,you'd see celebrities walking around
the corridor and, you know,big BBC bosses and it's just me that's
almost trying to like, you getthis imposter syndrome, thinking,
how am I going to convincethese people that I've got what it
takes?
(05:44):
I don't even know what I'vegot because I'm day one, what am
I doing?
But I remember seeingeverybody walking around the corridors
and they had their little IDpasses, a BBC pass.
And mine at the time was avisitor's pass, work experience,
four week pass.
And I'd look around, I think Iwant one of those.
It was almost for me, like,I've got to take everything step
by step.
(06:05):
What's my goal to get to thisnext point?
The thing first and foremostfor me, for all the anxieties, for
all the overwhelm andthinking, how am I going to fit in
here?
Especially as a mixed raceyoung woman within an industry, which
I didn't see a lot of,especially at that time, to early
2000s for me, I just keptgoing back to that baseline of I'm
(06:27):
gonna work really hard here,I'm gonna learn as much as I can
possibly learn.
I was working on a documentaryat the time and I'm going to use
this time to try and reallymake some strong connections.
Going back to the psychology.
I want to understand thepeople that I'm working with, tap
into their behavior, see howwe can connect.
(06:48):
Because especially in tv, youwork with a lot of different personalities,
a lot of different egos.
And it's about trying to kindof get under the surface of that.
So in some elements it was, Iwas taking away, not taking away
from myself in a negative way,but focusing on other people and
how I can understand them moreto, to create a position within this
(07:08):
industry which was at the timequite alien to me.
So for me, that was the firstkind of barrier that I was trying
to break, have the confidenceto feel like I can be rooted in the
space through working hard.
And for me, throughout mycareer, that has always been the
benchmark.
If you're going into anyspace, if you've done your research,
you've prepared, especiallywith live tv, there's always.
(07:30):
And in life, there's alwaysgoing to be elements that you can't
control.
But if you can walk into aspace and feel like you've got the
confidence through what you'vedone behind the scenes, then that's
what can carry you through.
I think over the years, acrossproduction and presenting, you're
working in an industry that isincredibly competitive, that is evolving
(07:51):
all the time.
I mean, I work back in the daywhen Facebook had just started, you
know, it was kind of like thedawn of social media.
Absolutely.
You know, and now it'scompletely different world.
And I get a lot of peoplemessaging me saying, I really want
to work in this industry.
How can I be a presenter, howcan I be a producer?
And the thing that I always goback to when people ask me is, what
(08:14):
research have you done to getto this point?
You know, what have you looked into?
I say, well, what are youinterested in?
What would you like to do in telly?
And certain people willrespond and say, well, actually,
I like this type of program.
I watch this, this, these aremy interests.
And certain people will say,I've got no idea.
But I'd just like to work inthe industry.
(08:34):
And for me, that's not doingenough research.
That's not going to be preparation.
It's like, you've got to leadwith your passion.
Yeah.
And the people who have thepassion will be the people who did
or do what you did, where youdidn't know the email, but you researched
and found out, you took a chance.
And also it's about having thecourage to be slightly uncomfortable
and step outside of yourcomfort zone and think, well, do
(08:56):
you know what if I don't try?
Yeah.
What will happen?
It's so true.
And I think you've hit thenail on the head there.
You know, I was thinking whenI woke up this morning, I feel like
I spend most days at a certainpoint feeling uncomfortable, and
it's getting comfortable withfeeling uncomfortable.
And there are certain dayswhere I'm like, I'm done.
I just want to be cozy.
I like putting my socks on,getting warm with a hot water bottle
(09:18):
and just cozying up and just.
That's it.
You know what I mean?
Closing the door and.
But it is, especially withinthis type of industry, it's constantly
putting Every single day,putting yourself in situations where
you're pushing, pushing,pushing the barrier.
And I think now so more thanever of being an older woman in the
industry, you know, havingsocietal norms pushed against you,
(09:39):
pulled against you.
I didn't realize that when Igot to 40 and having what I deem
for myself as a.
A consistent, successfulcareer, I would still be at a point
where you get questions andjudged and judged every single day.
And these things now that, youknow, I'm getting judged for that,
I wouldn't.
In my early 20s, your age,your ethnicity, whether you've got
(10:02):
children or not.
As a woman, how do you balanceyour work and your career?
Are you doing it well enoughor not enough?
It's a constant thing.
And I think when I wasyounger, when I first started in
the industry, I thought, well,I'm young, but I know I'm going to
get to a point where I have itall figured out and I'll just wake
up one day and I'll feelcomfortable and everything will be
(10:23):
fine.
And then, you know, you wakeup and you're 40 and you're like,
yeah, life doesn't work like that.
Totally doesn't.
You know what I mean?
We were just talking about it before.
It's like one day you put adress on, it feels great.
The next day you put it on,it's not.
But, you know, you were doingwhat, four weeks filming of Crime
Watch, where it's like live tvevery single day.
You've got to show up whetheryou feel like it or not.
Yeah.
And I think what's interestingwhen you said about the judgment,
(10:47):
it's every time you go for arole, every time you go to do anything,
you know, even entrepreneurscould be speaking on stage, getting
a book, who always pop againstsomeone else.
There's always a comparisonthat we're forced into massively.
And people say it's not personal.
It is.
Personally, it is personal atthe end of the day, with you, with
me, we are our brand, we arethe business.
(11:10):
So it's.
It's you.
So it is personal, you know,and it's not.
Taking offense to that isdifficult at times, but also, I've
learned over the years, yeah,it's personal.
And also there are, like, inlife, there are going to be some
people that like me, and thereare some people that don't.
I can't change that.
You know, in the very earlydays when I was moving from production
(11:31):
into presenting, I would goand reach out to various different
people in the industry to get advice.
Some Advice was really worthwhile.
Upon reflection, some wasn'tso worthwhile.
Some people would say, look atdifferent presenters and see who
you want to be like.
And for me, I didn't feel likethat was good advice because I need
to look at myself and think,what elements of myself can I bring
(11:54):
out more?
What can I home?
What can I evolve into andfeel it from here?
Yeah, I can look at otherpeople that I admire and take inspiration
from, but I'm never going tobe them.
Yeah, this is it.
I think I always say this withclients that, you know, if they want
to get onto stages, they wantto emulate someone else's career
or brand success, it's like,think about what you are, what your
(12:17):
core pillars are, what yourpassion is, your mission and vision,
and look at all of thesepeople and then cherry pick the bits
that you feel that truly alignwith what you want to do and that
will bring out your superpowers.
And I think where people gowrong is that they try and copy.
And this is the thing, like,you're never going to be able to
be the same as someone else,and why should we?
(12:38):
Where we're put on life as ourown entities.
And I think when you look athow people judge, they always say
things like, you know, youcould have more followers, you could
have more this, you could havemore years of experience.
You could have had all ofthese things.
But all of these criticismsthat we face day to day, I think
we have to try and, as yousay, take on board, but not feel
(13:02):
that people are saying it in anegative sense.
But that's just their opinionand their perception, and it's whether
your face fits at the right time.
And it's almost like therejection piece.
For me, the more I've beenrejected, those are the times that
have put me into a catalyst ofgrowth like never before.
So true.
Literally couldn't agree withthat more.
(13:23):
And I can think of many times,you know, in my career where I've
been pitted against otherpeople and, you know, you think that
this next job is going to beyour dream job, and you're hoping
and you're hoping people arerooting for.
You're going to get it and youdon't get it, and you think, well,
that's it now.
Yeah, but actually, I'd loveto do a study on what that is that's
(13:44):
going on in your kind ofpsyche or your makeup that actually
switches up the notch almostto another gear that you didn't realize
you had and does propel you forward.
I Feel like it's an inner resilience.
Yes.
I feel like the more youcondition yourself to trying, having
the audacity, having thecourage, putting yourself out the
comfort zone, it's almost likethat just becomes your new norm.
(14:07):
So that when you don't get thething, it almost feels like, well,
the belief and the, I suppose,reference point you have in your
mind is, I go back to whathappened last time.
Well, do you know what?
Actually, last time I pivoted,I did this and I pushed on and I
got greater success.
Yes.
It's almost like the universeserves us in that way.
It's like it's not meant to bebecause we're meant for greater things.
Yeah.
(14:27):
And I think within all ofthat, if you're continuing to work
hard, it is going to pay off.
And you know, after years ofbeing in the industry now, to, to
have the evidence to back thatup, to reflect and look back on the
times, well, you, you didn'tget that.
But look what happened next.
You didn't get that.
And the consistent threadthrough all of that is not giving
up, is having faith within yourself.
(14:49):
And also for me, I thinkagain, within tv, not just relying
on external validation.
If I spent my life within mycareer just basing how I feel about
myself day to day on what afew people within the industry have
said to me, positive ornegative, it can be really unhealthy.
It's great when it's anenhancement, and it's also really
(15:11):
healthy when it's constructive criticism.
And know every program that Ido, I watch back, I ask for feedback.
You know, we have greatfeedback meetings on, on one of the
programs that I do.
I'm certainly not the personthat just thinks, well, everything's
great.
I need people to tell me thatit's great.
I need people to tell me thatwasn't so great and this is what
you could do better.
But you've also got to havethat inner belief in yourself to,
(15:34):
to know when actually I needto step it up here or know this is
going well.
And if it doesn't necessarilyalign with X, Y and Z, that's okay
because you're happy with yourgrowth and you're happy with where
you're going with it, you know.
Yeah, totally.
And it's, it's almost likechanging the internal narrative.
Sometimes we try and trickourselves into, oh, well, no, I don't
need to do that because itfeels uncomfortable.
(15:55):
But actually sometimes we needto change that narrative and switch
up a little bit and pushourselves out of the Comfort zone.
And I always like to say toclients, like when you get a piece
of criticism or something youdeem as negative, like, sometimes
that is a positive superpower.
So when someone says, oh, mygoodness, like, she's always at 100
miles an hour, that actuallycould be your best superpower because
(16:17):
you're just pushing on anddoing things and maybe you need to
rest at times and things like that.
But we are conditioned to takeon board people's advice.
And sometimes we.
It's what we do with it.
You know, it's fine to take onboard and think, right, okay, is
this good?
Is this bad?
Can I take something from it?
What is the challenge?
What's the positive?
And I think the thing is hereis that you're faced with that day
(16:39):
to day.
Like, you know, being anentrepreneur, we're faced with it
in different ways.
And I think every single womanout there will be able to relate
to the perception of whatpeople think about how we look.
So I would love to explorethat because I once, when I did one
of my first ads on Facebook,put it out and it was getting amazing
(17:01):
traction.
And then I started to gettrolled by men who were saying either
not particularly nice thingsor offensive.
And then one of the commentsthat always sticks with me, this
man was like, I hate her lipstick.
And it made me laugh so much.
And everyone's like, you know,how do you feel about this trolling?
And I just thought, you knowwhat, this is not about me, this
is about them.
Yes, but every day we arejudged in our appearance and, you
(17:24):
know, more so for you, you'rein front of the camera all the time.
What was it like starting outin your career?
Like in cbbc, did you have toconform to a stigma in the BBC?
Like, did you have to look acertain way?
One of the first presentingjobs that I got offered within tv,
and I remember very distinctlyhow the conversation went.
(17:47):
The boss at the time had said,I'm not going to get the role because
my hair is too confusing forthe audience.
Which is obviously a fardeeper conversation.
I knew exactly what he wassaying to me at that time.
And even being very young inthe industry then even before I'd
started presenting, you know,I'd felt that I'm going to come across
(18:09):
these kind of conversations.
I come across that, you know,all the time, within life.
But to have someone sodirectly saying it to me as if it's
advice was one of those realkind of wake up moments to me of,
okay, there's a couple ofpaths I can take here and some people
do conform or not.
(18:30):
And for me it was a massive or not.
If I'm going to be in thisindustry, if I'm going to feel confident
in myself in this space, Ican't be doing what you're saying
because I will lose every bitof myself.
And that is literally goingagainst who I am and what I continue
to want to be as a presenter.
And you, you do realize, Imean, every day, every time I do
(18:53):
live telly, I don't spend toomuch time, to be honest, going on
social media comments, butsome people really do like to try
and make a beeline so you cansee it in your DMS or, you know,
on your, on your pictures and stuff.
People always make commentsabout the way I look, my hair, my
facial features, my nose.
It will be something that's constant.
(19:17):
And there is a lot of, it's racism.
You know, there's a lot ofracist comments, unfortunately, that
I get and some of my, mycolleagues get.
I think over the years I'velearned to deal with it a lot better
than when I was younger.
Not that I was ever shocked byit, unfortunately, but it was something
(19:37):
that I would really kind oftake to heart.
And you know, when you feelinjustice, you want to be able to
right the wrongs.
You want to be able to almostgoing back to psychology, have a
conversation with that personand make them understand or try and
understand why they're sayingwhat they're saying.
(19:57):
That wasn't the way to, toapproach it.
For every kind of negative,hateful comment, I'm not going to
be spending my precious timemessaging back to a troll on social
media.
It's, it's pointless.
There are times over yourcareer that it definitely gets you
down.
You know, generally outsideof, of working in tv, even growing
(20:21):
up as a kid, I've never beenthe type of person that's been really
confident within my looks.
It's not, I don't wake up inthe morning, think, geez, Michelle,
you're bloody fit.
I would love to be more ofthat person as I get older.
You know, I'm trying to likeget there and be like, come on now.
But I've never been that typeof person.
I think when I was younger andI used to get negative comments about
(20:42):
my looks, I would soak it in abit more.
It would almost be like tryingto verify how I felt about myself.
But even then there's alwaysbeen something in me that would just
kind of do things despite that.
Like, yeah, there is, there'sPlenty of times.
Well, I'll sit on telly livein the morning, the monitors there
(21:03):
and I'll look.
I don't feel confident withthe way I look today despite having
a lovely experience and makeupor whatever it might be.
But am I going to smash thisshow and do a cracking show?
Yeah.
And am I going to come awayand feel good in myself overall?
Yes.
And is that going to beinfluenced by some random person
(21:23):
on social media?
No.
You know, I love this, thiswhole attitude because I think everyone
watching will relate to this,that it is hard sometimes, you know,
you get up and when we'reputting ourselves in the public eye,
I mean, I remember back to atime where social media didn't even
exist.
Like my whole dawn of a new era.
I feel like I started mybusiness when the Internet began.
(21:44):
My first agency.
And one of the things is I gota fellowship from the Royal Society
of Manufacture Arts andCommerce and I was the youngest person,
the youngest fellow and I wasa woman and that was very much pointed
out.
And what it was for wasgetting businesses into social media.
So I laugh now.
It's about this whole kind ofthing where visibility piece is constant
(22:07):
24 7.
Like kids come home fromschool, they can't get away from
it.
I used to come home fromschool and you were in a safe zone.
Yeah, yeah.
You didn't have any contactapart from, you know, trying to get
on the phone when someonewasn't trying to use the Internet.
And those days did happen.
But what we're in now is thisconstant kind of like visibility
piece.
And I think with personalbranding it feels like you have to
(22:28):
be on 24 service and I thinkthat's very difficult because there's
some days that you just don'tfeel like doing it, but you have
to get up and do it again.
And we were talking about thisoutside in the sunshine.
But when you grow up, we arefaced with things all of the time
as women that we have to do,but we take on board sometimes some
(22:48):
of the societal norms and wedon't even realize that, you know,
we've been conditioned thatmuch that we're doing it.
We, we disempower people.
Like I was just saying to youbefore that, you know, I've gone
for a day to London and I'vesaid to my partner, here's your lunch.
You know, he's a 50 odd yearold man, I think he can probably
find.
But I see myself going intothis, you know, and disempowering
people.
(23:09):
Where do you sit in Terms ofwhere you think societal norms have
got a positive now, like howwomen are embracing them and using
them in a good way.
Do you think we're dismantlingsome of the stigma?
Do you think we are forging forward?
I really do think we are.
And for all, you know, thenegativity that we've been talking
about regarding social mediaand the trolling, I think this is
(23:32):
where social media canactually come into its own.
Because again, for all the.
The stress that we do put onourselves as women, to be doing things
all of the time and when itcomes to social media, to be posting
about our businesses, to beposting about what we're doing on
live television, to be tellingeveryone about a new series, this,
this, this and this, as wellas our home life.
Look, I'm a normal person.
I'm doing this too.
It's a lot.
(23:53):
But it's also a platform wherepeople can, if they want to be, be
really honest and open abouttheir views, their opinions, and
communicate with other women,with societies, and actually, as
you say, break those norms down.
And that is the one thing thatI do really like about social media,
to be able to have thatconnection, even have that connection
(24:15):
over a platform with yourfriends that you've not seen for
a while, with people that youdo align with and that you relate
to.
And I think that actually it's.
What do they say, A risingtide lifts all the ships.
It bolsters us all and itmakes us question ourselves as well.
You start seeing things inother people and thinking, actually.
Yes.
Or reading things and thinkthat makes sense.
(24:36):
I hadn't thought about that before.
Yes, I'm going to.
I'm going to push theboundaries in this way.
I'm going to go home and havea conversation with my husband about
that or speak to my kids about that.
In that respect, it does pushthings forward.
And I think, you know, we'reall evolving all the time.
We don't know everything, youknow, and there are habits that we
(24:57):
all have, like we were talkingabout and those gender roles within
society.
I'm very much a person that will.
As soon as I walk in my home,I'm like, right, what needs doing?
I'd be like, putting thewashing on, taking the drying out,
dah, dah, dah.
Empty the dresser.
And then my partner is verygood at coming in, sitting down and
having a moment.
Minus two.
Is that strange?
Like, I need to take a leafout of this book.
(25:19):
Like, what would happen if weflip the script here?
And I'm like, right within I'mjust sitting right down and he'd
probably look at me think,well, that's not like you, Michelle.
But I like it.
You know, there's, there'sways that we can kind of push our
own boundaries and not justlook at other people and think, well,
why are you doing that?
Like that?
You know, it's interestingwhen you start making changes within
yourself, what actually startsto happen around you and how you
(25:43):
can move forward from that.
And that's where I think,yeah, social media and having that
kind of awareness and wantingto question yourself is so important.
Yeah.
Because social media, I feel,can be a real, true vehicle of change.
And I love social media forthat aspect.
I'm quite good at zoning outthe white noise and I just kind of
embrace the things I want toget involved with.
(26:04):
And I've always been reallypassionate about building kind of
community that I want onsocial media.
So for me, it's like thenumbers are almost vanity, but the,
the quality of the people andit's like I literally messaged you
on Instagram and, you know,here we are today in London.
This is what I love aboutsocial media, that we can just reach
(26:24):
out to people, we can havethose conversations now.
One of the things that I knowabout you is that you are very passionate
about charity.
And I actually saw you speakat SmartWorks event.
Of course, it was a fizz andfashion event.
And you're one of the longeststanding ambassadors, I think, for
Smart Works.
And we're both very passionateabout this charity.
(26:45):
Tell me a little bit about howyou got involved in it, because it's
an amazing charity.
It really is.
It really is.
And the whole focus on thecharity is to inspire, empower women
to be the best version ofthemselves, get them a foot on the
ladder.
And it's, it's amazing workingwith incredible women.
And actually it was through anincredible woman that I ended up
(27:06):
working with the charity.
So one of my old bosses withinBBC, who was actually the person
that changed my contract onceI'd done my four week unpaid work
experience placement.
Oh, I love this.
She was the one that actuallycalled me into her office and said,
michelle, I would like to giveyou a fixed term contract as a runner
(27:27):
in BBC Manchester.
It was on, you know, on thefourth floor in Manchester, Oxford
Road, in the entertainment department.
And I remember sat on a sofa,like nearly in tears.
And, you know, she was, shewas incredible, you know, and she
could obviously see somethingwithin me and she was an incredible
mentor to have.
And this is going back 20years now, this is like back in 2005.
(27:50):
We have kept in touch ever since.
We're friends.
And I'd always said to her,even throughout my.
My time at the BBC, I'd alwaysbe going to her for advice and say,
caroline, I'm looking to do.
Set up some kind of mentorshipscheme, or what else can I be doing
within the BBC that can helpother people that might be coming
in, you know, and, and how canI help with their progress?
(28:11):
So she knew I was alwaysinterested in, in trying to help
others and in different ways,and she'd been a part of.
Of the charity, so it wasactually through her that she said,
michelle, do you want to cometo one of the events with me?
Because I think actually beinginvolved in this would be right up
your street.
So she introduced me to Janfrom, from the charity and we had
(28:31):
a, you know, a lovely lunch,the three of us, and then it literally
continued from there.
You know, I've involved invarious events, workshops, talks,
and you were talking aboutcommunity earlier.
That's what this charity isfor me.
It's an incredible community.
When you're in a space, as youknow, with many women, women who
(28:53):
have a voice, but women whoare in the process of finding their
voice and then women thatchoose to use it within that space
and tell you their story givesyou goosebumps, it empowers you and
it's almost.
It's like ping pong.
It's like throwing a ball ina, I don't know, bouncy squash court
and you just see it bouncing,bouncing back.
All this energy is kind ofbouncing around the room and we're
(29:13):
all helping each other.
It was lovely to.
To think how that's actuallyall come from full circle through
Caroline almost paying it forward.
And I've been able to helpother people through that.
Yeah, definitely.
And I think with the charity,one of the things that I love about
it is that when you thinkabout how dressing makes us feel,
and the fact that these womenwho were going for interviews and
(29:34):
there was one woman who spokeat that event that we met at, and
I think she'd been to like, 55interviews, something absolutely
crazy.
She come out with an amazing job.
Yeah.
Couldn't get a new job.
Yeah.
Came to Smart Works, got thisamazing sort of styling and, you
know, this whole new outfitand then they do coaching as well.
Yes.
And then her next interviewgot the job.
(29:55):
And I think it's.
It's these things that we see,you know, charities like that, the
impact that they make.
And I Think as you know,personal brands, founders, presenters,
whatever, we can all do morein those spaces and it's to do a
little good in the world, youknow, to give back.
I think that is where trueenrichment of life kind of comes
(30:16):
from.
What would you say on a day today lights you up?
What makes Michelle really happy?
It's generally actuallyfeeling a part of a community, of
a part of a society and, andhelping people, you know, trying
to make a difference within myrole as, as a producer and as a presenter.
(30:37):
I have various mentees now so,you know, people might reach out
to me on social media orinternally through the BBC.
And I love spending timeactually helping others.
And it's not just about meoffering advice and saying, well,
I did this, this and this.
It's actually really takingthe time to listen, to hear people
(30:57):
and to share stories.
And I always come away fromthat experience feeling enriched
and feeling full, feelingfulfilled and knowing that that other
person can feel the same.
And I think within that, asI've gotten older, another thing
weirdly that makes me happy isactually feeling confident enough
(31:20):
to be vulnerable in certainspaces and being honest.
And again, going back tosmartworks, the charity, you know,
when you, you're listening towomen speak, they're talking about
the hardships in their life,they're connecting you with you on
a level that is deeplypersonal, but sharing it in a way
that we are all being able tobenefit from and go and help other,
(31:41):
other people.
And I just think to get to apoint where whatever you're doing,
you're getting up in themorning and you're getting on with
your day, but you think, okay,I know the things that are going
to happen that are within mycontrol, they're going to be other
things that will happen todaythat are without, you know, out of
my control.
But I'm going with it.
There are times when I'll bevulnerable and honest and open and
(32:04):
have to communicate and that,that's a really rich kind of beautiful
tapestry to have.
You know, it kind of gives youthat confidence, like it's okay,
you know, and it's okay.
And I think what I love aboutthis conversation is the fact that
nobody has got it planned andnow 24, 7, there doesn't reach a
point in your 20s, 30s, 40s,whenever that you wake up and you
(32:27):
think, yep, I nailed it.
You know, and I actuallythought that they did.
I didn't.
I'm not going to lie.
I'm not going to lie.
I thought too.
And you know, the thing herewas is I thought in my life that
I would follow some of thesocietal norms.
I totally didn't.
I mean, not really aconformist anyway.
I've always challenged thestatus quo.
But I think what is reallyinteresting is when I reflect back
(32:49):
on some of the things I did,I've taken quite big risks and I
think some of the things in mylife defined that.
I actually lost six people insix months just when I was starting
my first business at 21.
But that changed my wholeoutlook on life and it made me pretty
risque in the things that Idid because I was like, do you know
what?
(33:09):
I'm still here.
I've got my health.
And my dad used to say, dawn,it's character building.
Yeah.
And then I did my first bookcalled Character Building, and that
was for cancer research.
But every time I think aboutsomething, I think, what would happen
if I don't do it?
So what would be your bestpiece of advice for anyone listening
who is thinking, do you know what?
I just want to level it up alittle bit.
(33:30):
I want to push a little bit harder.
Like, I've got this goal, I'vegot this dream.
What would we say today?
What would be your advice?
You know, it's so funnybecause I talked to my mum about
this a lot and she just says,just do it.
We could spend a lot of timenow sitting down and going through
the minutiae of what you needto do here, there, then next.
But actually, the first thingyou need to do is reset your mind.
(33:51):
The first thing needs to be anaction point.
Just do it.
It's almost like not puttingthe snooze button on 10 million times.
When you wake up in themorning, just get up, get up, switch
that light on, drink a glassof water, your body's activated,
you're engaged.
So that, that would be myfirst point of advice, actually try
and declutter your mind of allthe reasons why this potentially
(34:15):
couldn't work.
If this is something thatyou're really passionate about, if
it's a dream that you've had,constantly tell yourself that you
are going to do it.
That needs to be the firstthing in your mind.
And then you start working outthe process.
I mean, for me, like I said,research has always been the key
for me.
Preparation, taking time toreally understand.
(34:37):
If I'm going to do a live showfirst thing in the morning, I'll
be spending the night beforereading through the briefs.
I'll be going through thecontributors that I'm interviewing.
I'll be finding out the littlepieces of information that people
don't really know.
What is it that's going to setme apart?
What is it that's going tomake this conversation for them feel
like it's something on a.
On a different level?
(34:57):
So what can you be doing?
Because actually, you realizea lot of people don't do that.
A lot of people don't either.
Preparation and don't do theresearch, you know.
Yeah.
And then the thing is here islike, I guess your goal is really
about the communication.
It goes back to what you saidbefore, making sure that that first
person is, like, really seen,like, really heard and really noticed.
And they actually kept.
(35:18):
I think that you've hit thenail on the head, having authenticity.
And I think when I watchtelevision, you can see with certain
people, it comes through the camera.
You know, you can see peoplethat genuinely care and are authentic.
And isn't it a nice feelingwhen you go into a room and you.
You feel that?
Like, when I met you and wewere chatting, sat outside, I was
(35:38):
like, well, this is lovely.
I can feel it's different.
You can feel that difference.
Yeah.
And if you have got that, Imean, that just takes you.
You're not trying to convinceyourself basically, as well as everybody
else, you've already got thatfaith and you care and you feel.
And you're looking forward tolistening and hearing that just kind
(35:59):
of.
You're floating then, youknow, and this is it.
I think it's a bigcommunication thing.
I love what you say about thecommunication part because for me,
when I first started, I foundit really difficult being so young
in business.
A lot of rejection, a lot ofkind of stereotypes, like, you know,
a woman working in tech andthings like that.
But I didn't really let itbother me.
But one of the things that Iwas so absolutely certain on every
(36:22):
single day was I was justgoing to communicate in the way that
I wanted to be communicatedwith, almost like doing to others
have done to yourself.
And that has been honestly thebiggest foundation for my success
because it's about people.
Like, if you gel with people,everything seems to flow and everything
feels nice and theopportunities come, and it's almost
like sowing a seed ofhappiness every day, showing gratitude.
(36:45):
And what you said about thewhole just kind of get it done.
I love this principle becauseI always say to people, when they
say, dawn, I just need a plan.
You don't need a plan.
You just need a vision.
You need to start breakingdown some of those actions and start
implementing, like, just getsomething in Motion.
Yes.
Because I love a bit of crazy chaos.
Some of the things that havebeen my biggest growth has been things
(37:05):
that I've just gone, you know what?
I'm just going to do that.
Yeah.
And I get it out there beforeI'm even certain of how it's going
to look and work.
But it just feels right.
That's the thing.
And the crazy chaoticness kindof comes together in there, you know,
it's kind.
Of creative, you know, and.
And it's genius, isn't it?
And I think there's reallysomething in that, in terms of our
(37:26):
psyche and.
And how we're built physiologically.
I even know if I'm reallytrying to make myself go to the gym
in the morning.
You can tell yourself everysingle reason not to go again.
Alarm.
Don't snooze it.
I will put my gym kit on assoon as I'm out of the bed.
So my trainers.
I'm walking around in my trainers.
And it's even just having yourbody in the gym kit clothes.
(37:50):
Suddenly something sparks.
Well, I'll go.
Even if I do five minutes,it's better than nothing.
There's perfect action.
Exactly.
At least we're doing something.
Yes.
And I always say, like, youknow, you can't condition the habit.
You have to change theenvironment, first of all.
So if your environment, youknow, is kind of like you get up
in the morning and you're inyour kind of like sitting down and
(38:11):
laying around before you do it.
Like, for me, I just have todo a reforma Pilates every single
morning because it sets me up.
I literally don't think thealarm goes off.
I get up and I'm in Pilates mode.
Yeah.
Because the environment for mewas like, well, I know that I will
flow better.
Yes.
I am doing this thing.
So my environment was put thephone somewhere that I've got to
(38:33):
get up and do it.
Yes.
Okay.
And then once I was kind of inthat whole motion I was kind of doing.
And then the first thing wouldbe like, right, get an espresso,
do the things I like doingthat get me on that journey, and
get me at the start.
So we're onto my favorite partof the podcast now, the bit where
you share your embarrassing story.
Now, I ask every guest to dothis, and it's my favorite.
(38:55):
And I was just telling youabout some of the ones before.
And if you think about whatwas the craziest, most embarrassing
time, like, what is the story?
You've got to share it.
Oh, my God.
You know What?
Especially doing livetelevision every day, I feel like
there are embarrassing momentsall the time because sometimes it's
(39:15):
crazy.
Like, for all the preparationand the research that you do, sometimes
your mind just kind of goesaway with itself.
You know, the amount of timesI've been like, hello, and welcome
to such and such.
Happy Wednesday.
No, Michelle, it's Friday.
Okay, right, we'll reverse that.
But actually, it's refreshingbecause you're like, people make
mistakes.
But on one program I do onMorning Live, we have a section of
(39:37):
the show that's calledStrictly Fitness at the end.
So we have the Strictly ComeDancing dancers come on and they
teach us some exercise so theaudience at home can kind of get
involved.
I absolutely love it.
You know, it's a chance for us all.
Just have a bit of fun, have a dance.
Da, da da.
So I'm always fully committed.
You know, we take our shoesoff and get stuck in.
(39:57):
So we're doing variousexercises, lifting our arms, you
know, doing the paso doblemove or the cha cha or whatever.
Multiple people have said,michelle, watch the dog, watch the
dog, watch the dog, Michelle.
Michelle the dog.
Like, I'm just looking at the autoc.
You're like, oh, I've got 10seconds to kind of sound out.
See, tomorrow, like, laughingand smiling, having a whale of a
(40:17):
time in my own world.
And the next minute I turnaround to do this move, thinking,
this move is going to look.
I'm going to be bidded forStrictly because this move is going
to look great.
Absolutely.
Stack it, roll over this.
This beautiful goldenLabrador, nearly face plant the table.
Whilst everyone goes silent inthe studio.
Like, is she okay?
(40:39):
Issue.
I'm thinking, is that, have Ikilled this dog?
Live on, is the dog okay?
Thankfully, Dolly the dog wasabsolutely fine.
I managed to get up justbefore the show is going.
I'm okay, everything's fine.
It was the most embarrassingthing ever because it's like you're
just thinking, this could goreally badly.
(41:00):
And then everyone's thinking,is she all right?
Can she talk?
You know, if Harry Hill's TVburp was still going or you've been
framed, I feel like I'd get200 quid cash from Jeremy Bead.
Or can we.
Can we find this on YouTube?
Yeah, well, gething keepsbringing out.
Every time I'm back, it'slike, oh, she's okay, she's okay.
Thankfully, Dolly the dog's okay.
(41:21):
We had to do a thing on socialmedia afterwards with me sat on the
sofa with Dolly the dog.
Like, we're still here,everything's fine.
The amount of messages.
Thank you, thank God.
Like, you know, honestly,royalties, animals, it.
Was like, we don't.
We've, we've.
I think we've stopped dancingwith the dogs at the.
Well, I've stopped dancingwith the dogs at the end.
I think the studio stopped youdancing with it all.
(41:43):
It's like, oh, my word.
And especially on programs,you know, Morning Live, it's a magazine
show.
So you're talking about.
We talk about anything fromreal kind of consumer hardcore topics
to what you're going to dowith your rhubarb this summer.
So to kind of toe the line andthen sometimes things happen, you've
just got to.
It's just a very human, real moment.
(42:04):
Thankfully I managed to justdo my piece to camera, you know,
half on the floor on my butt,saying goodbye.
And you just got to move on.
This is it.
I mean, there's sometimeslike, you know, I just think back
to some of the things I'vedone and I'm one of these people
who's like so clumsy.
But also predictive text, theamount of text I've sent.
Yeah.
And someone asked me whatelectrolyte I was taking.
(42:25):
I meant to say Humantra, whichwas this amazing brand.
Oh, yes, it is lovely.
Lovely.
Sent it.
Look back on it and it pickedup and it said, I've just finished.
Not Humantra, Human trafficking.
Sent this to my client.
I mean, like, if there was aworst thing that could have sent,
that was it.
So for me, these things likehappen every single day.
Yeah.
(42:45):
But I love a good story.
And you know what I'm going to do?
I'm going to go right onYouTube now.
I'm going have a look at this.
Dolly the dog there.
Made gifts out of it and everything.
This is the thing about.
You can't live it down now onsocial media, can you?
Do you know what I mean?
That's going to be what I'mremembered for, Tripping over the
dog.
It's true.
So one of my favorite books atthe moment, and I honestly feel like
(43:07):
it's been life changing, is abook called the Courage to Be Disliked.
And it, honestly, I read onholiday, it was one of those books,
you know, that really get you.
Is there a book that you canrecommend that has, like changed
your life?
There's a couple, actuallythat I'm reading at the minute.
One called Worthy by JamieLynn Kerner and another one by a
psychologist friend by OwenO'Kane called Addicted to Anxiety.
(43:32):
And it's brilliant.
Heard really good things about that.
It's really, really good.
There's certain books that Iwill take around with me, you know,
for a, for a train journey,let's face it, we do a lot of.
And dip in and dip out.
I almost see them as manuals.
You know, I'll read a book andthen I need to go back to it and
that will like kind ofbookmark pages and go through again.
(43:55):
My first recommendation wouldbe Addicted to Anxiety because there's
some real standout tangiblebits of advice that you can take.
And also Owen, especiallywithin this book, he kind of delves
into his own upbringing andhis anxiety and how he's overcome
it.
So you actually not justgetting advice from a psychologist,
(44:16):
you learn about the personbehind the psychology.
Yeah.
And you get different kind of connection.
Yes.
So what does the future holdand how can people connect with you,
Michelle?
Well, I'm on social media, I'mon Instagram at Michelle Ackerley.
The future for me is.
Well, I got married last yearso it's our first year wedding anniversary.
(44:37):
When you arrive, the firstthing, oh, you arrived.
And I saw someone kiss and Ithought that's that beautiful.
And I thought oh, that's Michelle.
Pleasure.
You know what it's continuingto have or trying to forge a decent
work life balance.
I think for me, especiallywithin tv, one of the questions that
people always ask is what's next?
(44:58):
What's the five year goal?
What's the.
And that used to be somethingthat I would almost obsess about
and not actually think aboutthe journey that, that I'm on.
I think it's important to havegoals but it's also kind of being
in the present and I have tosay that actually I'm really enjoying
my journey at the minute.
Be more Morning Live.
They've just been nominatedfor a bafta.
(45:19):
So we find out in May.
I head to Sacramento in May aswell to do the World's Strongest
Man.
That'll be fun.
Which would be fun.
Just a lot of big burly strong men.
I get neck ache doing thatthough to be fair dawn, because they're
all so tall.
I'm there with a microphone.
Need to do like my neckexercises by the end of the day.
And you don't want to getstuck in a lift with them because
that's happened with them as well.
(45:39):
Five strong men stuck in a lift.
It's.
Yeah.
All be trapped.
Positive experience.
Well, not when they're.
They all got very nervous.
I'm the one trying to sort thesituation out.
They're like, oh my God, I'm claustrophobic.
I don't like this.
Guys, don't worry, it's allgonna be fine.
I've got this rest the alarm,probably be an hour or so.
We'll be fine.
But no, it's just, yeah.
(46:00):
Creating that good balancebetween work and home life, spending
lots of.
With family.
And I always say to my mom,it's having things to look forward
to, whether that is justactually enjoying a time, going for
a lovely walk with.
With friends and family,cooking something nice.
It's just kind of having thosepresent moments to really feel enriched
(46:23):
is.
Is something that.
Yeah.
Means a lot to me at the minute.
Well, thank you for this chatand you're off to go and have a lovely
lunch in the sunshine.
In the sunshine.
No, it's a lovely day today with.
Your husband, so enjoy andthank you so much.
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to dawnof a New Era, the podcast brought
to you in association with theHer Power Community.
(46:43):
This initiative was founded bymyself and it's all about empowering
female founders to recognizetheir limitless potential and pursue
their ambitions with confidence.
Now, there is less than 1.8%that goes into investing in female
founded businesses and we arehere to make positive change.
So come and support us onInstagram at Her Power Community
(47:06):
and find out more about whatwe're doing to support female founders
to scale and grow their businesses.
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