July 4, 2024 • 26 mins
Did your smart watch tell you that you didn't get enough sleep? Well today's guest is here to tell you that data is not complete. Meet Dr. Russell G. Foster, the Head of the Nuffield Laboratory of Ophthalmology and of the Sleep and Circadian Neuroscience Institute at the University of Oxford. In other words, he has thought a lot about sleep and the science of it for a long time! In his studies he has uncovered the issues with trying to find a “one-size solution for all" solution to sleep challenges, and wants to help us rethink how we understand our rest for better wellness. Discover how to better measure your sleep and understand the impacts on our brain when we don’t get enough of it.
Join us at Dear Workplace as we delve into this final episode on the science of sleep and how you can rethink you and your team's wellness.
Click here for the episode shownotes, video, mentioned resources, episode transcripts, and more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Monica H. Kang (00:00):
So any of you like to measure your sleep patterns with your smartwatches and devices? Well todays guest is about to tell you that im sorry but the technology is not giving you accurate data. Thats right. Meet doctor Russell G. Foster. He is a professor at circadian neuroscience and the head of department of ophthalmology. He is also a a Nicholas Curtis senior fellow at the Bercenos College. Prior to this Russell was an imperial college where Russell was the chair of molecular neuroscience within the Faculty of Medicine and his researches spans basic and applied circadian and photoseptor biology. Long story short he is an expert in sleep and the science of sleep using light. I know that was a lot of jargon just there but its important to see his background start which was understanding the light pattern in animals influence on sleep.
(01:01):
And so it wasnt until he had a random conversation with somebody in the elevator, they were like maybe you can help us understand sleep better for humans too, not just animals. Which led him to a journey of learning sleep and human behavior with neuroscience data. Of course AI is changing a lot, its giving us more data and insights. But he is still wary about peoples assumption about there is a one solution fit for all. As our previous guest said, its not so.
(01:32):
With further ado, lets go to Oxford.
United Kingdom to meet doctor Russell G. Foster.
So very excited to have Doctor Russell Foster here all the way from United Kingdom. Thank you so much for joining us Russell. Wow. So let's dive all into about the topic of sleep. We've been wanting to learn a little bit more, help professionals figure out how we sleep better. And you've been working on this for quite some time. I'm curious if you can bring us back to the journey. Why did you even want to first start studying sleep?
Russell G. Foster (02:05):
Well, I'm delighted to join you today Monica. It's a slightly convoluted route. So my background was in circadian rhythms, these internal body clocks, and I was in an elevator with a psychiatrist as you do, and he said to me oh will you work on sleep and stuff? And I said well you know I work on biological clocks. And he said oh well anyway my patients with schizophrenia have terrible sleep. That's because they don't have a job. So they get up late, go to bed late, miss my clinic and don't have friends. And I thought this was really a stupid thing to say. So that actually prompted me to move from my circadian rhythm research to also encompass sleep. And we studied really for the first time the sleep wake patterns of individuals with mental illness. And we started actually with schizophrenia.
(03:02):
And I have to say the first patterns that we saw were so striking, so utterly smashed, it then triggered a whole interest in, well, why? What is the association with poor sleep and mental illness which has been a parallel track of interest of mine?
Monica H. Kang (03:21):
Well, tell me a little bit more. What are some misconceptions we've had for a long time?
Russell G. Foster (03:27):
It's really fascinating. I think in the eighties, those of us who were around in the eighties and I'm not sure, Monica, whether you were even born in the eighties, I know my asian genese, it was a badge of honor to say, oh, I've done another all nighter. People say, oh, well done. Sleep is this indulgence and a luxury which we can sort of ignore. And of course because we invaded the night so successfully with cheap electric light we did so without thinking about throwing away that essential part of our biology which is our sleep. And so I think there's been a change from the eighties and then by the turn of the century people were beginning to think, yeah, you know, the science is telling me this is kind of important.
(04:12):
And now we have gone to the other extreme I think by a certain group of individuals where sleep is regarded as this enemy that almost needs to be subdued and sort of rather than embraced. And, you know, we should love it and not worry about it. I mean there is absolutely now a condition, a clinical condition called sleep anxiety. And I think it hasn't been helped by certain commentators saying you must get 8 hours of sleep. And of course that's not true, that's an average. And I think people are taking averages and making them. It's like shoe size. You wouldn't expect everybody to have the same shoe size. And so healthy sleep patterns can range from 6 hours to ten and a half, even eleven. The average is eight.
(05:00):
But people have come up to me after public talks and said, you know, I don't get 8 hours of sleep. Am I going to die? And I sort of say, well yeah, you're going to die but it may not be due to your sleep duration. And so really the point of writing the book lifetime was to provide the science and then allow people to make decisions about their particular sleep needs. And I think the key question for me that all of us needs to ask is well, how much sleep do I need and how do I know if I'm getting the sleep that I need? Well, and you know, it's this kind of advice our grandparents would have given us. Well, you know, do you feel able to function optimally during the day?
(05:41):
Do you oversleep on free days or when you go away on holiday? Do you, are you dependent upon an alarm clock for somebody to wake you up or get you out of bed? Does it take a long time to wake up? Do you feel groggy? Do you need caffeine? Do you need a nap? Do you find you've got changed behaviors? You know, you find yourself doing stupid and impulsive things. Do your friends, families, colleagues say your behavior has changed? You're not quite as nice as you were, you're a bit irritable, you don't have the same empathy, and again, you're doing disinhibited, silly things. And if it's yes to those, then there's loads of stuff that we can do about it. And that's the thing, I think that so many people feel that sleep is what you get.
(06:24):
No, it's like all of our behaviors, it can be massively modified by what we do.
Monica H. Kang (06:30):
In speaking of modification, I'm curious, I guess two part what has been a way that folks can get that answer of like how much sleep is the right amount of sleep for me? And I guess to that I'm curious if there is also already science that proves like how early you can know that. And is that number consistent? Because I have, for instance, friends who have little ones and they're like, I think our kid just doesn't need enough sleep, he's so hyper all the time. And they raised that question and part of me got curious of thinking, well like would that mean that's something that he wouldn't need a lot of sleep for the rest of his life? Or is it just early symptoms, does it change?
Russell G. Foster (07:07):
It's interesting because there are certain things that, so for example, our chronotype, whether you're a morning type or an evening type, and indeed your sleep duration, are partly encoded by our genes. So there is by our contribution to our genes. Our parents are still telling us what time to get up and go to bed.
Monica H. Kang (07:25):
I'm.
Russell G. Foster (07:26):
But it can be modified as we age. So from the age of ten there's a tendency to want to go to bed later and later peaking for women at about 19 and a half, for men about 21. And on average, men tend to want to go to bed later than women for most of our lives until we're in our mid fifties, late fifties when we're getting up and going to bed at about the same time. And that's on average 2 hours earlier than in our late teens, early twenties. So there is a and it seems to be tracking the changing levels of the sex hormones testosterone in men, estrogen, progesterone in women. So there's genetics, there's our hormonal profile, but it's also when we see light, and this is the bit we have real control of. So morning light makes us get up earlier.
(08:16):
It advances the clock and the sleep wake timing systems. Dusk light delays the clock. It makes us get up later. So when were all agricultural workers, we got a symmetrical exposure to morning and evening light, and we stayed on cue. But we did a study a few years ago on university students around the world and showed that those were the latest chronotype. The more owl like they were, the less morning light they got, which would make them get up earlier. And they were getting lots of evening dusk light, which was pushing them later. Pushing them later. So you've got your genetics, you've got your age, but also if you're getting lots of evening light, you'll shift the clock even further late.
Monica H. Kang (08:59):
That's fascinating. And so how would that influence, like, individuals like myself who travel also, like, where that morning light is changing all the time? Like. Like, I'm in one time zone this week. I was in another time zone last week and then another time zone the following week. So what can I do? I guess I can make sure I have block out shade. But any other advice?
Russell G. Foster (09:17):
Well, it's tricky because we don't know where your biological clock is, and therefore, when you need to hit it with light. On average, if you're not traveling across multiple time zones all over, you know, repeatedly, then the rule of thumb is that if you're traveling west, you seek out light, you get the light and you adapt to an expanding day. Whereas if you're traveling east and let's say from London to Australia, Sydney, then you avoid morning light and then seek out afternoon light. And what that does is you avoid the delaying light that you get if you were in London, and then you get the morning light, which is in London, but it's an afternoon time in Australia, so. Yeah. So the rule of thumb, miss out morning light and seek out afternoon light if you're crossing multiple time zones, traveling east.
Monica H. Kang (10:14):
Got it. Got it. I know folks who are travelers are tuning in, so they will definitely want to rewind that to make sure they pick up on that tip. I want to take a step back and also study about trends. I mean, like, for instance, like AI, machine learning has changed so much with just the new technology. And as I pointed out, you've been in this space for quite some time. And even with your first observation like, hey, actually I only got into sleep accidentally, it's the sleep angle, because I've been studying the life cycle of light and all circadian life. And so part of me is curious, I feel like so much is shifting how we think and navigate. Yes, a large part of how we should value sleep shouldn't change.
(10:54):
But I'm curious if there's also new discoveries that you're finding that and realizing that because of how we use now technology or how we're changing also, these are new things we have to think about sleep that we haven't thought before.
Russell G. Foster (11:06):
It's an incredibly important area. And we touched on misinformation, like you must get 8 hours in the same way. Sort of the mantra out there is you shouldn't look at an e book, a kindle before you go to bed and light before bed. Well, it's really important to understand that those early studies were somewhat misleading. If you look at the study itself, the big one, it was people looking at a kindle on its brightest intensity for 4 hours just before bedtime on five consecutive nights. And it delayed sleep onset by just statistically significant, by ten minutes. So that's biologically meaningless. And later studies showed that if you were getting sufficient light during the day, any small effects that you were seeing by dim light in the evening were completely abolished.
(11:58):
So this is sort of an artifact of some of the way the experiment was done. And it's a shame really, because these were well controlled, great experiments, but they weren't done in the field, they weren't done in the real world. And therefore we've sort of got sort of a misconception about, you know, light in the evening. It makes sense to minimize light in the evening, but not ridiculously low. And I mean, some of the recommendations, like you mustn't get more than 40 lux 2 hours before you go to bed. That's really low. And if you're elderly, you know, the chances of falling or whatever under those dim light conditions are quite serious. So we don't fully know what parameters we need to measure to get guidelines. So there's some very important stuff there that still needs to be done.
(12:44):
The other area where there's misconception is, of course, in devices which report your sleep tracking devices. Now, it's important to be aware that none of these are endorsed by the sleep federations, none are FDA approved, and they can be profoundly misleading. Now, they're okay for telling you roughly when you went to sleep, if you woke up in the night and when you finally got up. But the algorithms at the moment are not sophisticated enough to tell you whether you've had lots of REM sleep, lots of slow way sleep, they're very inaccurate. And so people get terribly anxious because their devices said you had poor sleep last night. And actually they're thinking, well, hang on, I feel pretty good, and it's extraordinary that we will defer to an inaccurate device rather than the way we actually feel.
(13:39):
And you talked about AI, and I think AI is going to be a really powerful agent here because we've got one algorithm that's supposed to fit everybody's sleep patterns. It can't. And so I. What's going to happen in the next five and ten years is we're going to have trackers which will feed back using AI and then refine the advice you get based upon essentially real world observations on that individual. So AI is going to be able to extract information to give a much more reliable account of one's sleep. Whether we actually need these devices, I think, is questionable. I mean, there does seem to be this human desire that we must be told by something about what's happened rather than going through those criteria I talked about before about whether you're getting good sleep or not.
(14:29):
But I do see AI is going to be really important in that domain and also in some of the drilling down into fundamental mechanisms. A bunch of what we do here in Oxford is look at the patterns of gene expression and trying to make sense of how hundreds of genes changing can be correlated to particular sleep patterns and sleep behaviors. And that's going to be phenomenally exciting.
Monica H. Kang (14:54):
Well, I just had, like, a meta moment of, like, yeah, like, way, way back in the day. Like, we didn't have a clock, we did. We didn't have a phone. We didn't. Like. But somehow the world went around, like, yes, they were imperfect. We are improving. But, like, to your point, like, are we overly now loving the data? The tracking's too much. The point that, like, we. I mean, even the fact of, like, I was just looking at an old movie the other day, and taxi drivers, just like, you tell an address and they would know, and now it's, like, hard for them.
(15:22):
They don't even know how to do it.
And it's like another completely different industry example where we relied on just, like, information on technology so much that we forgot even the skills that we had.
Russell G. Foster (15:33):
Well, exactly. And we want to put a number on everything. And with sleep, it's like lots of behaviors it's dynamic, it changes on a day to day basis. And so trying to regiment sleep is counterproductive. Just embrace the sleep you get. It will change as you age, it will change under different circumstances. And actually, the key bit of advice about sleep in the current time period is that most people don't have a sleep problem. They have a stress or anxiety issue. And the main thing for me is get that under control and your sleep will fall into alignment so that you can get to sleep without feeling stressed. If you wake up, as most people do, you won't think, oh, my God, that's it, I'm never going to get back to sleep. Start drinking coffee and doing emails.
(16:23):
Just stay relaxed, stay calm and you will fall back to sleep. You may want to leave the bed for 20 minutes, half an hour, read a bit of Jane Austen, listen to a bit of beethoven, whatever relaxes you, and then. Then slide back into sleep again. It's getting our anxiety and so much of our lives, of course, are fueled with anxiety and stress and of course, it's really not helping our sleep at all.
Monica H. Kang (16:47):
I'm curious if this is going to lead to now a whole new research on stress managing. Anxiety managing. I mean, that in itself also, I.
Russell G. Foster (16:54):
Used to be pretty rude about things like mindfulness, and I sort of, when it first emerged, I had it in the same box as crystal waving. And I was sort of quite rude then. With good data and analysis of the impact of mindfulness on relaxation and improving sleep, it's clearly beneficial for some, not all, and so just use whatever works for you.
Monica H. Kang (17:20):
Curiousen, I know you've been on the research and continue the work for a long time, but, like, is there still new research, I'm sure there to do? Like, what are you working on lately?
Russell G. Foster (17:29):
Monica, how long have we got? I tell you, it's such an exciting time and, you know, I'm coming towards the end of my career, frighteningly, but I've got this, you know, I work with this generation of people coming through and they are holding the torch and carrying it forward. So, for example, in one area, and I'm working with two wonderful colleagues, Aati Yaganath and Sriva Zudavan. And we're fascinated, we've been fascinated for quite some time, is how does lightning, detected by these special receptors in the eye that we discovered, regulate the biological clock? So you can be visually blind, you've got no rods and cones, but you've got this third receptor which can regulate the clock.
(18:12):
And so we've been following that pathway in but critically, of course, if you have no eyes, and we work with blind veterans UK and blind Veterans USA, then these individuals, their clock keeps on ticking, but they're drifting through time. They're getting up later and later by about 1015 minutes every day. And of course, they're not only visually blind, but they're time blind. And the time blindness is almost worse to deal with. They feel, you know, they can deal with not being able to see, but by their bodies constantly tricking them what time it is. They can't then function optimally when they should be at home with their family or work or whatever. So by understanding the molecular pathways going into the master clock within the brain, we now have drugs that can simulate the effects of light on the clock.
(19:05):
And so we've done all the preclinical work we've done first in humans. We know the drug is safe, and so we're now getting the funding to do the first in human trials. And then I would like to end my career by giving back a sense of time to the time blind. And, of course, it's very useful. Well, it's pivotally important in the profoundly blind, but also in going back to mental health, where we started to try and partially stabilize the rhythms in those individuals and then wean them onto light. In neurodevelopmental disorders, children have. Some children have terrible sleep wake problems, and it'd be great to be able to stabilize it for them so they can make full use of their educational opportunities and also not disrupt the family in the same way Alzheimer's dementia is associated with massively disrupted rhythms.
(19:55):
The reason many people will send their parents to a nursing home is because they're wandering around in the middle of the night and they're then endangering themselves and the rest of the family. So I think these drugs will have huge application by mimicking the pathways that we know exist. So it's a great example where fundamental research, curiosity driven research, is now being translated into the use of drugs within the next five years that will transform the sleep wake of multiple patient groups.
Monica H. Kang (20:27):
That's amazing. And I love that. As you have pointed out, kind of wrapping this up and like, hey, we did talk about, we did give a little hard time for the data, but, like, data used in also a thoughtful way can re transform accessibility, retransform. For those who never thought maybe that, I loved your reminder that, you know, maybe before we simply say, hey, like, this person audience, like, they're being late, I was like, wait, what is the cause of it? The deeper cause that we're not even realizing. And, like, let's back it up with science. And so, thank you for humanizing that.
Russell G. Foster (20:56):
Yeah, that's absolutely the key thing for me. We want evidence based and condition specific interventions, and we can use science. And, in fact, you know, the exciting thing for me, I've been in Oxford now for coming up for 20 years, and it's working. I'm a fundamental scientist, but I work with my clinician scientists, colleagues in mental health, in endocrinology, and in brain imaging. And so we can start to use this extraordinary database of fundamental science to improve the health and wellbeing of multiple patient groups.
Monica H. Kang (21:31):
Well, thank you so much for your leadership and continuing to set the norm. Two final questions. I don't know how much time passed by.
Russell G. Foster (21:39):
I'm fine. You carry on.
Monica H. Kang (21:41):
But one, what's a single piece of advice maybe you want to share with the next generation of individuals who want to step into this field and say, want to help make a positive contribution? What would you share?
Russell G. Foster (21:54):
Well, I think it is an extremely exciting time because we've ignored sleep and circadian rhythms, really, for so long. But we've now got the tools in neuroscience to address these fundamental questions. This is the time to go in. I mean, for much of my career, we knew what questions to ask, but we didn't have the tools. And now, essentially, you can ask, why do we sleep? What are the mechanisms of sleep? What is the molecular biology behind sleep? These are all the fundamental questions that are arising new pathways whilst we sleep. What's going on?
(22:29):
The discovery of the glymphatic system, really, in the past few years, clearing up these misfolded proteins, beta amyloid, getting them out of the body while we're asleep and not preventing their buildup, which is a predisposition for dementia and Alzheimer's, you name it, there's a place for anybody who's interested broadly in this field. It's a great time to go into science in this particular area.
Monica H. Kang (22:53):
Love it. Love it. And what's the best way folks can follow up with you and stay in touch with you?
Russell G. Foster (22:59):
Well, so do go to our website, the Sleep and circadian Neuroscience Institute at Oxford, and you'll see me, but more importantly, lots of other wonderful scientists who are working across the space.
Monica H. Kang (23:11):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Russell, for sharing your wisdom and your journey. I know folks will appreciate the sharing and insight. Folks, you know the drill. I always share the contacts and information. So you'll find these links that he mentioned. Find us in the show notes in the blog and if you don't find it, just send me a note@infonovatorsbox.com. Thank you so much Russell. This is such a treat and we're going to continue this learning of sleep so that way we do a better job and don't let the misinformation get in the way. So we'll see you later.
Russell G. Foster (23:41):
Great to see you Monica. Take care.
Monica H. Kang (23:44):
Thank you so much Russell, for these insights and perspective. I mean that's mind blowing to realize that we have done so much work in science and yet we still won't know the specific details because everyone's need is so different. I feel like that's kind of reassuring and also refreshing to realize that we have to do the inner work and learn about each persons pattern. So for those who kept saying that I didnt get enough sleep because my clock says it, maybe listen to your body clock more and look at the light pattern. Im definitely going to keep this in mind because ive been traveling a lot this year and this tip has been helpful for me to rethink about my sleep pattern. This is your host Monica King and you are tuning into dear workplace.
(24:29):
Let me know what other questions and themes we should cover and we will see you later and have a great day.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Thank you for listening to Dear workplace by Innovators box. As we wrap up season three, we would love for you to stay in touch. Please connect with us online and visit innovatorsbox.com for more tips and resources. We hope you'll stay tuned for future episodes of Dear workplace where we untangle your workplace questions and reimagine how to thrive at work through conversations that matter. Till next time, we hope you'll continue to thrive in all that you do. And remember, the best is yet to come. Take care.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Thanks again for joining us. This is your host Monica Kang at Dear Workplace and I'm so glad you are here. This show is possible thanks to our amazing podcast team who has worked with me at Innovators Fox Studios. Shout out to audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lehmart, Audio Engineering assistant by Ravi Lad, website and marketing support by Kree Pandey, Graphic Support Bye Lea Orsini, Christine Eribal, and original music by InnovatorsBox Studios, and writing, interviewing, podcasting, directing and all that jazz by me, Monica Kang. Share us your feedback and suggestions as we continue to look to improve and answer the questions that you have about the workplace. Have a great day and I'll see you soon.
So any of you like to measure your sleep patterns with your smartwatches and devices? Well todays guest is about to tell you that im sorry but the technology is not giving you accurate data. Thats right. Meet doctor Russell G. Foster. He is a professor at circadian neuroscience and the head of department of ophthalmology. He is also a a Nicholas Curtis senior fellow at the Bercenos College. Prior to this Russell was an imperial college where Russell was the chair of molecular neuroscience within the Faculty of Medicine and his researches spans basic and applied circadian and photoseptor biology. Long story short he is an expert in sleep and the science of sleep using light. I know that was a lot of jargon just there but its important to see his background start which was understanding the light pattern in animals influence on sleep.
(01:01):
And so it wasnt until he had a random conversation with somebody in the elevator, they were like maybe you can help us understand sleep better for humans too, not just animals. Which led him to a journey of learning sleep and human behavior with neuroscience data. Of course AI is changing a lot, its giving us more data and insights. But he is still wary about peoples assumption about there is a one solution fit for all. As our previous guest said, its not so.
(01:32):
With further ado, lets go to Oxford.
United Kingdom to meet doctor Russell G. Foster.
So very excited to have Doctor Russell Foster here all the way from United Kingdom. Thank you so much for joining us Russell. Wow. So let's dive all into about the topic of sleep. We've been wanting to learn a little bit more, help professionals figure out how we sleep better. And you've been working on this for quite some time. I'm curious if you can bring us back to the journey. Why did you even want to first start studying sleep?
Russell G. Foster (02:05):
Well, I'm delighted to join you today Monica. It's a slightly convoluted route. So my background was in circadian rhythms, these internal body clocks, and I was in an elevator with a psychiatrist as you do, and he said to me oh will you work on sleep and stuff? And I said well you know I work on biological clocks. And he said oh well anyway my patients with schizophrenia have terrible sleep. That's because they don't have a job. So they get up late, go to bed late, miss my clinic and don't have friends. And I thought this was really a stupid thing to say. So that actually prompted me to move from my circadian rhythm research to also encompass sleep. And we studied really for the first time the sleep wake patterns of individuals with mental illness. And we started actually with schizophrenia.
(03:02):
And I have to say the first patterns that we saw were so striking, so utterly smashed, it then triggered a whole interest in, well, why? What is the association with poor sleep and mental illness which has been a parallel track of interest of mine?
Monica H. Kang (03:21):
Well, tell me a little bit more. What are some misconceptions we've had for a long time?
Russell G. Foster (03:27):
It's really fascinating. I think in the eighties, those of us who were around in the eighties and I'm not sure, Monica, whether you were even born in the eighties, I know my asian genese, it was a badge of honor to say, oh, I've done another all nighter. People say, oh, well done. Sleep is this indulgence and a luxury which we can sort of ignore. And of course because we invaded the night so successfully with cheap electric light we did so without thinking about throwing away that essential part of our biology which is our sleep. And so I think there's been a change from the eighties and then by the turn of the century people were beginning to think, yeah, you know, the science is telling me this is kind of important.
(04:12):
And now we have gone to the other extreme I think by a certain group of individuals where sleep is regarded as this enemy that almost needs to be subdued and sort of rather than embraced. And, you know, we should love it and not worry about it. I mean there is absolutely now a condition, a clinical condition called sleep anxiety. And I think it hasn't been helped by certain commentators saying you must get 8 hours of sleep. And of course that's not true, that's an average. And I think people are taking averages and making them. It's like shoe size. You wouldn't expect everybody to have the same shoe size. And so healthy sleep patterns can range from 6 hours to ten and a half, even eleven. The average is eight.
(05:00):
But people have come up to me after public talks and said, you know, I don't get 8 hours of sleep. Am I going to die? And I sort of say, well yeah, you're going to die but it may not be due to your sleep duration. And so really the point of writing the book lifetime was to provide the science and then allow people to make decisions about their particular sleep needs. And I think the key question for me that all of us needs to ask is well, how much sleep do I need and how do I know if I'm getting the sleep that I need? Well, and you know, it's this kind of advice our grandparents would have given us. Well, you know, do you feel able to function optimally during the day?
(05:41):
Do you oversleep on free days or when you go away on holiday? Do you, are you dependent upon an alarm clock for somebody to wake you up or get you out of bed? Does it take a long time to wake up? Do you feel groggy? Do you need caffeine? Do you need a nap? Do you find you've got changed behaviors? You know, you find yourself doing stupid and impulsive things. Do your friends, families, colleagues say your behavior has changed? You're not quite as nice as you were, you're a bit irritable, you don't have the same empathy, and again, you're doing disinhibited, silly things. And if it's yes to those, then there's loads of stuff that we can do about it. And that's the thing, I think that so many people feel that sleep is what you get.
(06:24):
No, it's like all of our behaviors, it can be massively modified by what we do.
Monica H. Kang (06:30):
In speaking of modification, I'm curious, I guess two part what has been a way that folks can get that answer of like how much sleep is the right amount of sleep for me? And I guess to that I'm curious if there is also already science that proves like how early you can know that. And is that number consistent? Because I have, for instance, friends who have little ones and they're like, I think our kid just doesn't need enough sleep, he's so hyper all the time. And they raised that question and part of me got curious of thinking, well like would that mean that's something that he wouldn't need a lot of sleep for the rest of his life? Or is it just early symptoms, does it change?
Russell G. Foster (07:07):
It's interesting because there are certain things that, so for example, our chronotype, whether you're a morning type or an evening type, and indeed your sleep duration, are partly encoded by our genes. So there is by our contribution to our genes. Our parents are still telling us what time to get up and go to bed.
Monica H. Kang (07:25):
I'm.
Russell G. Foster (07:26):
But it can be modified as we age. So from the age of ten there's a tendency to want to go to bed later and later peaking for women at about 19 and a half, for men about 21. And on average, men tend to want to go to bed later than women for most of our lives until we're in our mid fifties, late fifties when we're getting up and going to bed at about the same time. And that's on average 2 hours earlier than in our late teens, early twenties. So there is a and it seems to be tracking the changing levels of the sex hormones testosterone in men, estrogen, progesterone in women. So there's genetics, there's our hormonal profile, but it's also when we see light, and this is the bit we have real control of. So morning light makes us get up earlier.
(08:16):
It advances the clock and the sleep wake timing systems. Dusk light delays the clock. It makes us get up later. So when were all agricultural workers, we got a symmetrical exposure to morning and evening light, and we stayed on cue. But we did a study a few years ago on university students around the world and showed that those were the latest chronotype. The more owl like they were, the less morning light they got, which would make them get up earlier. And they were getting lots of evening dusk light, which was pushing them later. Pushing them later. So you've got your genetics, you've got your age, but also if you're getting lots of evening light, you'll shift the clock even further late.
Monica H. Kang (08:59):
That's fascinating. And so how would that influence, like, individuals like myself who travel also, like, where that morning light is changing all the time? Like. Like, I'm in one time zone this week. I was in another time zone last week and then another time zone the following week. So what can I do? I guess I can make sure I have block out shade. But any other advice?
Russell G. Foster (09:17):
Well, it's tricky because we don't know where your biological clock is, and therefore, when you need to hit it with light. On average, if you're not traveling across multiple time zones all over, you know, repeatedly, then the rule of thumb is that if you're traveling west, you seek out light, you get the light and you adapt to an expanding day. Whereas if you're traveling east and let's say from London to Australia, Sydney, then you avoid morning light and then seek out afternoon light. And what that does is you avoid the delaying light that you get if you were in London, and then you get the morning light, which is in London, but it's an afternoon time in Australia, so. Yeah. So the rule of thumb, miss out morning light and seek out afternoon light if you're crossing multiple time zones, traveling east.
Monica H. Kang (10:14):
Got it. Got it. I know folks who are travelers are tuning in, so they will definitely want to rewind that to make sure they pick up on that tip. I want to take a step back and also study about trends. I mean, like, for instance, like AI, machine learning has changed so much with just the new technology. And as I pointed out, you've been in this space for quite some time. And even with your first observation like, hey, actually I only got into sleep accidentally, it's the sleep angle, because I've been studying the life cycle of light and all circadian life. And so part of me is curious, I feel like so much is shifting how we think and navigate. Yes, a large part of how we should value sleep shouldn't change.
(10:54):
But I'm curious if there's also new discoveries that you're finding that and realizing that because of how we use now technology or how we're changing also, these are new things we have to think about sleep that we haven't thought before.
Russell G. Foster (11:06):
It's an incredibly important area. And we touched on misinformation, like you must get 8 hours in the same way. Sort of the mantra out there is you shouldn't look at an e book, a kindle before you go to bed and light before bed. Well, it's really important to understand that those early studies were somewhat misleading. If you look at the study itself, the big one, it was people looking at a kindle on its brightest intensity for 4 hours just before bedtime on five consecutive nights. And it delayed sleep onset by just statistically significant, by ten minutes. So that's biologically meaningless. And later studies showed that if you were getting sufficient light during the day, any small effects that you were seeing by dim light in the evening were completely abolished.
(11:58):
So this is sort of an artifact of some of the way the experiment was done. And it's a shame really, because these were well controlled, great experiments, but they weren't done in the field, they weren't done in the real world. And therefore we've sort of got sort of a misconception about, you know, light in the evening. It makes sense to minimize light in the evening, but not ridiculously low. And I mean, some of the recommendations, like you mustn't get more than 40 lux 2 hours before you go to bed. That's really low. And if you're elderly, you know, the chances of falling or whatever under those dim light conditions are quite serious. So we don't fully know what parameters we need to measure to get guidelines. So there's some very important stuff there that still needs to be done.
(12:44):
The other area where there's misconception is, of course, in devices which report your sleep tracking devices. Now, it's important to be aware that none of these are endorsed by the sleep federations, none are FDA approved, and they can be profoundly misleading. Now, they're okay for telling you roughly when you went to sleep, if you woke up in the night and when you finally got up. But the algorithms at the moment are not sophisticated enough to tell you whether you've had lots of REM sleep, lots of slow way sleep, they're very inaccurate. And so people get terribly anxious because their devices said you had poor sleep last night. And actually they're thinking, well, hang on, I feel pretty good, and it's extraordinary that we will defer to an inaccurate device rather than the way we actually feel.
(13:39):
And you talked about AI, and I think AI is going to be a really powerful agent here because we've got one algorithm that's supposed to fit everybody's sleep patterns. It can't. And so I. What's going to happen in the next five and ten years is we're going to have trackers which will feed back using AI and then refine the advice you get based upon essentially real world observations on that individual. So AI is going to be able to extract information to give a much more reliable account of one's sleep. Whether we actually need these devices, I think, is questionable. I mean, there does seem to be this human desire that we must be told by something about what's happened rather than going through those criteria I talked about before about whether you're getting good sleep or not.
(14:29):
But I do see AI is going to be really important in that domain and also in some of the drilling down into fundamental mechanisms. A bunch of what we do here in Oxford is look at the patterns of gene expression and trying to make sense of how hundreds of genes changing can be correlated to particular sleep patterns and sleep behaviors. And that's going to be phenomenally exciting.
Monica H. Kang (14:54):
Well, I just had, like, a meta moment of, like, yeah, like, way, way back in the day. Like, we didn't have a clock, we did. We didn't have a phone. We didn't. Like. But somehow the world went around, like, yes, they were imperfect. We are improving. But, like, to your point, like, are we overly now loving the data? The tracking's too much. The point that, like, we. I mean, even the fact of, like, I was just looking at an old movie the other day, and taxi drivers, just like, you tell an address and they would know, and now it's, like, hard for them.
(15:22):
They don't even know how to do it.
And it's like another completely different industry example where we relied on just, like, information on technology so much that we forgot even the skills that we had.
Russell G. Foster (15:33):
Well, exactly. And we want to put a number on everything. And with sleep, it's like lots of behaviors it's dynamic, it changes on a day to day basis. And so trying to regiment sleep is counterproductive. Just embrace the sleep you get. It will change as you age, it will change under different circumstances. And actually, the key bit of advice about sleep in the current time period is that most people don't have a sleep problem. They have a stress or anxiety issue. And the main thing for me is get that under control and your sleep will fall into alignment so that you can get to sleep without feeling stressed. If you wake up, as most people do, you won't think, oh, my God, that's it, I'm never going to get back to sleep. Start drinking coffee and doing emails.
(16:23):
Just stay relaxed, stay calm and you will fall back to sleep. You may want to leave the bed for 20 minutes, half an hour, read a bit of Jane Austen, listen to a bit of beethoven, whatever relaxes you, and then. Then slide back into sleep again. It's getting our anxiety and so much of our lives, of course, are fueled with anxiety and stress and of course, it's really not helping our sleep at all.
Monica H. Kang (16:47):
I'm curious if this is going to lead to now a whole new research on stress managing. Anxiety managing. I mean, that in itself also, I.
Russell G. Foster (16:54):
Used to be pretty rude about things like mindfulness, and I sort of, when it first emerged, I had it in the same box as crystal waving. And I was sort of quite rude then. With good data and analysis of the impact of mindfulness on relaxation and improving sleep, it's clearly beneficial for some, not all, and so just use whatever works for you.
Monica H. Kang (17:20):
Curiousen, I know you've been on the research and continue the work for a long time, but, like, is there still new research, I'm sure there to do? Like, what are you working on lately?
Russell G. Foster (17:29):
Monica, how long have we got? I tell you, it's such an exciting time and, you know, I'm coming towards the end of my career, frighteningly, but I've got this, you know, I work with this generation of people coming through and they are holding the torch and carrying it forward. So, for example, in one area, and I'm working with two wonderful colleagues, Aati Yaganath and Sriva Zudavan. And we're fascinated, we've been fascinated for quite some time, is how does lightning, detected by these special receptors in the eye that we discovered, regulate the biological clock? So you can be visually blind, you've got no rods and cones, but you've got this third receptor which can regulate the clock.
(18:12):
And so we've been following that pathway in but critically, of course, if you have no eyes, and we work with blind veterans UK and blind Veterans USA, then these individuals, their clock keeps on ticking, but they're drifting through time. They're getting up later and later by about 1015 minutes every day. And of course, they're not only visually blind, but they're time blind. And the time blindness is almost worse to deal with. They feel, you know, they can deal with not being able to see, but by their bodies constantly tricking them what time it is. They can't then function optimally when they should be at home with their family or work or whatever. So by understanding the molecular pathways going into the master clock within the brain, we now have drugs that can simulate the effects of light on the clock.
(19:05):
And so we've done all the preclinical work we've done first in humans. We know the drug is safe, and so we're now getting the funding to do the first in human trials. And then I would like to end my career by giving back a sense of time to the time blind. And, of course, it's very useful. Well, it's pivotally important in the profoundly blind, but also in going back to mental health, where we started to try and partially stabilize the rhythms in those individuals and then wean them onto light. In neurodevelopmental disorders, children have. Some children have terrible sleep wake problems, and it'd be great to be able to stabilize it for them so they can make full use of their educational opportunities and also not disrupt the family in the same way Alzheimer's dementia is associated with massively disrupted rhythms.
(19:55):
The reason many people will send their parents to a nursing home is because they're wandering around in the middle of the night and they're then endangering themselves and the rest of the family. So I think these drugs will have huge application by mimicking the pathways that we know exist. So it's a great example where fundamental research, curiosity driven research, is now being translated into the use of drugs within the next five years that will transform the sleep wake of multiple patient groups.
Monica H. Kang (20:27):
That's amazing. And I love that. As you have pointed out, kind of wrapping this up and like, hey, we did talk about, we did give a little hard time for the data, but, like, data used in also a thoughtful way can re transform accessibility, retransform. For those who never thought maybe that, I loved your reminder that, you know, maybe before we simply say, hey, like, this person audience, like, they're being late, I was like, wait, what is the cause of it? The deeper cause that we're not even realizing. And, like, let's back it up with science. And so, thank you for humanizing that.
Russell G. Foster (20:56):
Yeah, that's absolutely the key thing for me. We want evidence based and condition specific interventions, and we can use science. And, in fact, you know, the exciting thing for me, I've been in Oxford now for coming up for 20 years, and it's working. I'm a fundamental scientist, but I work with my clinician scientists, colleagues in mental health, in endocrinology, and in brain imaging. And so we can start to use this extraordinary database of fundamental science to improve the health and wellbeing of multiple patient groups.
Monica H. Kang (21:31):
Well, thank you so much for your leadership and continuing to set the norm. Two final questions. I don't know how much time passed by.
Russell G. Foster (21:39):
I'm fine. You carry on.
Monica H. Kang (21:41):
But one, what's a single piece of advice maybe you want to share with the next generation of individuals who want to step into this field and say, want to help make a positive contribution? What would you share?
Russell G. Foster (21:54):
Well, I think it is an extremely exciting time because we've ignored sleep and circadian rhythms, really, for so long. But we've now got the tools in neuroscience to address these fundamental questions. This is the time to go in. I mean, for much of my career, we knew what questions to ask, but we didn't have the tools. And now, essentially, you can ask, why do we sleep? What are the mechanisms of sleep? What is the molecular biology behind sleep? These are all the fundamental questions that are arising new pathways whilst we sleep. What's going on?
(22:29):
The discovery of the glymphatic system, really, in the past few years, clearing up these misfolded proteins, beta amyloid, getting them out of the body while we're asleep and not preventing their buildup, which is a predisposition for dementia and Alzheimer's, you name it, there's a place for anybody who's interested broadly in this field. It's a great time to go into science in this particular area.
Monica H. Kang (22:53):
Love it. Love it. And what's the best way folks can follow up with you and stay in touch with you?
Russell G. Foster (22:59):
Well, so do go to our website, the Sleep and circadian Neuroscience Institute at Oxford, and you'll see me, but more importantly, lots of other wonderful scientists who are working across the space.
Monica H. Kang (23:11):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Russell, for sharing your wisdom and your journey. I know folks will appreciate the sharing and insight. Folks, you know the drill. I always share the contacts and information. So you'll find these links that he mentioned. Find us in the show notes in the blog and if you don't find it, just send me a note@infonovatorsbox.com. Thank you so much Russell. This is such a treat and we're going to continue this learning of sleep so that way we do a better job and don't let the misinformation get in the way. So we'll see you later.
Russell G. Foster (23:41):
Great to see you Monica. Take care.
Monica H. Kang (23:44):
Thank you so much Russell, for these insights and perspective. I mean that's mind blowing to realize that we have done so much work in science and yet we still won't know the specific details because everyone's need is so different. I feel like that's kind of reassuring and also refreshing to realize that we have to do the inner work and learn about each persons pattern. So for those who kept saying that I didnt get enough sleep because my clock says it, maybe listen to your body clock more and look at the light pattern. Im definitely going to keep this in mind because ive been traveling a lot this year and this tip has been helpful for me to rethink about my sleep pattern. This is your host Monica King and you are tuning into dear workplace.
(24:29):
Let me know what other questions and themes we should cover and we will see you later and have a great day.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Thank you for listening to Dear workplace by Innovators box. As we wrap up season three, we would love for you to stay in touch. Please connect with us online and visit innovatorsbox.com for more tips and resources. We hope you'll stay tuned for future episodes of Dear workplace where we untangle your workplace questions and reimagine how to thrive at work through conversations that matter. Till next time, we hope you'll continue to thrive in all that you do. And remember, the best is yet to come. Take care.
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Thanks again for joining us. This is your host Monica Kang at Dear Workplace and I'm so glad you are here. This show is possible thanks to our amazing podcast team who has worked with me at Innovators Fox Studios. Shout out to audio Engineering and producing by Sam Lehmart, Audio Engineering assistant by Ravi Lad, website and marketing support by Kree Pandey, Graphic Support Bye Lea Orsini, Christine Eribal, and original music by InnovatorsBox Studios, and writing, interviewing, podcasting, directing and all that jazz by me, Monica Kang. Share us your feedback and suggestions as we continue to look to improve and answer the questions that you have about the workplace. Have a great day and I'll see you soon.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.