October 7, 2025 • 66 mins
What connects natural history, conservation, and fine art? Katie Burke explores this question with sculptor Walter Matia. From his early fascination with museums to decades of experience sculpting wildlife, Walter discusses the importance of mentors, the challenge of capturing animals in motion, and why his work resonates so deeply with hunters and nature lovers alike.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie Burke (01:40):
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited
podcast. I'm your host, KatieBurke. And today on this show, I
have a special guest. I haveWalter Matia.
He is a sculpturist. I guess youwould say that you are a how I
mean, in French, it's is thathow you say it? But we would say
wildlife sculpturist over now, Iguess, is what we would say.
What would you say?
Walter Matia (02:00):
Well, I mean, I'm an animal sculptor. Okay. And
I'm out of the tradition of theFrench Amelier. Which were a
group of people basically backin the eighteen forties led by a
man named Antoine Louis BerryMhmm. Who was the first guy to
actually use animals as aprimary subject, not animals as
(02:21):
sort of an add on to a largerlandscape or a hunt scene or
whatever.
Mhmm. It was animals as animals,and sort of that's a tradition
I'm out of.
Katie Burke (02:30):
Yeah. I I was I was an art history major, so I when
I saw when I was reading aboutyou and everything, I was like,
oh, yeah. I forgot about this.Like, it's been so long that
I've I've forgotten about. Like,I I never even thought to, like,
connect you to that.
But, yeah, that was interestingto go back, and then I fell down
a rabbit hole looking ateverybody's stuff, which was
(02:52):
fun. But alright. So, Walter,let's I'm really excited to have
you on. I love your work, but Iwanna before we get into that,
let's go all the way back tobeginning. So you grew up in
Ohio.
Correct?
Walter Matia (03:05):
Yes. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio.
Katie Burke (03:07):
Yep. And then so what was those early years like
for you in Ohio?
Walter Matia (03:13):
Well, I mean, early years are early years.
Yeah. I I had a I did grow up inCleveland, which had a great
series of museums, both aterrific art museum, a terrific
natural history museum. And Ihad a mother who was very
interested in getting this theheck out of the house. Yep.
(03:35):
And I spent much of my youth,particularly in the winters that
were pretty bleak in Cleveland,at the different museums, either
in drawing classes or justfiddling around looking at
stuff. The the large if it wassort of the seminal moment of my
(03:55):
career in the arts actuallyhappened when was about 14 years
old when I was sort of sent downto the museum having well, my
mother came downstairs, andthere were, like, 16 dead
muskrats in the basement next tothe laundry. And she said enough
was enough, and she called thedirector of the museum at the
(04:17):
time, a man named WilliamShealy, who was a terrific
animal painter, and basicallysaid, Bill, I'm bringing him
down. He's now your problem. AndI I pretty much spent all my
weekends and summers fromthrough high school and through
college and for a year or soafter college working in the
(04:37):
museum in their exhibitsdepartment where I met a man
named Larry Izzard who was aterrific sculptor.
We became very, very closefriends up until his death in
2006 or so. And he sort ofhooked me on sculpture.
Katie Burke (04:52):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (04:53):
So that's the the short review.
Katie Burke (04:55):
Yeah. That's funny because, yeah, I always was very
I mean, obviously, I'm I lovemuseums. I'm a museum curator,
and I love to go my mom wouldtake us. We would we would when
I was a kid, I grew up in DU andwe would go to national
convention for our, like, familyvacation every year, and she
would have to entertain us whiledad was in, like, meetings. So
we would go to I got to go to somany museums as a kid, and I
(05:17):
always loved like, I just had anaffinity for them, just the idea
of collecting everything.
But it never occurred to me thatyou could work there until I was
older Yeah. Until, like,actually into college because I
I was an art major, and then Iwent into art history, and I
thought, oh, I don't I didn'twanna teach, and I didn't know
(05:39):
what else I could do with it,but I loved art history, and and
finally somebody was like, oh,you could work in a museum, and
I was like, that's a thing? Iwas like, so And then I started,
like, going to the university,like, museum and, you know, just
basically begged to hang outthere for free and let them and,
(06:00):
like, do whatever they would letme do, but you got to do it so
young. That's pretty special.Not many people get to start I
feel like most of us don't startkind of doing our I'm guessing
they didn't pay you because mostmuseums didn't pay much.
Walter Matia (06:17):
That would be a bad guess.
Katie Burke (06:18):
They paid you?
Walter Matia (06:21):
Well, you know, I started out down there in their
young scientists program, whichyou did not get paid. But by the
time I was 16, or 17, I don'tremember, we I was actually
doing real jobs in the summer. Imean, they were hard jobs.
Katie Burke (06:35):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (06:36):
I mean, you know, I didn't get paid much, but that
didn't matter. I mean, I've beendoing it for free, be honest
with you.
Katie Burke (06:41):
Yeah. Well, most of us do do it for free, Walter.
Walter Matia (06:45):
But this was a this was a different time. I'm a
lot older than you. Yeah. Ithink.
Katie Burke (06:52):
Yeah. You think you're the same age as my dad.
Yeah. And yeah. But I just yeah.
I was like, oh, I do it forfree, and then eventually, you
know, I I got I started to getpaid after some time. But, yeah,
you got to do it so young. Andso at in that time, I mean,
(07:12):
you're seeing art and you'reseeing, you know, like natural
history objects is what we callthem, but, you know, artifacts
and stuff. Are you interested inart at the same time? Are you
more interested into the biologyside of it, or is it kind of
equal?
Walter Matia (07:28):
So I did go to college. I went to a place
called Williams College ofMassachusetts, and I have a
degree in biology and a degreein art design. Right. And the
art history or the art designmajor at Williams College was
largely art history. Okay.
(07:50):
So I would say what I have is adegree in art history more than
art design. But, no, I wasalways interested in both. I
mean, in Cleveland, the theNatural History Museum and the
Art Museum are right across thestreet from
Katie Burke (08:01):
New really nice museums. Yeah.
Walter Matia (08:02):
And so, you know, there was just sort of a lot of,
you know, a lot of lunches werespent in the art museum. You
know, a lot of days were spentlooking at things. Some of the
most fun things that we got thatI got to do was they would send
me over there to to a curatorwould get a Dutch still life in.
(08:22):
Mhmm. And they wouldn't have anyidea what the animals were in
the still life.
And so they'd send me over thereand said, you know, go tell them
what that is. You know? Well,that's a bullfinch, and that's
this, and that's that, andthat's this. And these have
these symbolisms in differentEuropean art. And, you know,
that was just fun.
Katie Burke (08:44):
Yeah. That is fun.
Walter Matia (08:45):
So I got to use all of it was the point. It was
fun.
Katie Burke (08:48):
Okay. So and I'm guessing you were pretty
outdoorsy too as a kid. Right?Like, were outside and doing
more things.
Walter Matia (08:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, most kids were.
There were no cell phones.
Katie Burke (09:03):
Yeah. No. Yeah. But there were books. My sister this
I was pre cell phones as kids,and my sister read a lot of
books.
She didn't go outside that much,so there is another option.
Walter Matia (09:15):
I didn't I did not read a lot of books. In fact,
I'm not sure I read a book allthrough high school, but I but
the pictures were in English.And I had a huge collection of
field guides.
Katie Burke (09:29):
Yeah. Okay.
Walter Matia (09:32):
And so I spent hours and hours in the you know,
when it was dark looking throughfield guides and looking through
books of paintings of theanimals. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm
I'm I'm pretty literate. Youknow?
Katie Burke (09:44):
So you were actively trying to learn all
these animals, I'm guessing,since you're
Walter Matia (09:50):
Oh, yeah.
Katie Burke (09:50):
Looking at field guides. Yeah. Because that's
basically what you're you'redoing. I mean, for the most part
is learning the difference.
Walter Matia (09:58):
Well, I mean, I I don't know who said it, but but
but, basically, you know,knowing the name is the entry
point to just about everythingin natural history. Okay. And,
you know, and so I I did in factwant to know the name of
everything I was looking at.Yeah. And that include plants,
(10:19):
fossils, rocks, you know, just along to know, and I still do.
Katie Burke (10:25):
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Were you good at it, like,
remembering those names? Becausesome people my kid well, I have
one kid who can remember, like,everything, but then I have
other, like, me, One that's likeme that can't remember.
Walter Matia (10:41):
I would have said until about four years ago,
yeah, I remembered everything Iever saw. Yeah. Now it's getting
a little fuzzier.
Katie Burke (10:49):
Like, you made it a long time.
Walter Matia (10:53):
No. I mean, part probably probably learning the
names of things is a really goodway of slowing yourself down
enough when you're outside Mhmm.To really observe what you're
looking at. Mhmm. You know, wein plants, we historically used
to to use keys.
I mean, you know, kids now, youknow, it's not like a cranky old
(11:15):
guy, but, you know, kids pointtheir photo their their
telephone at a plant. They theysnap a picture, and iNature
tells them what they're lookingat.
Katie Burke (11:25):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (11:26):
Well, they remember that for about forty
three seconds, if that. Whenyou're told something, it
doesn't register the same way asif you actually looked it up,
figured it out. Yeah. And, youknow, I'm not saying it's better
or worse. I'm just saying thatthat my way of having to learn
(11:48):
things the way I did left mewith a much better memory for
what they actually were.
Katie Burke (11:55):
Right.
Walter Matia (11:56):
You know? And then, you know, so I I, you
know, I went on from museum workto work for twelve years for the
Nature Conservancy.
Katie Burke (12:05):
I was I'm getting there.
Walter Matia (12:07):
So, I mean, it it it chain I mean, it it it's been
a continuum, shall we say?
Katie Burke (12:12):
Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, I I find it like,
for me, I learn things with,like, when it comes to the
outdoors and stuff when when Iit's like with I'm with my dad
or something, and we talk aboutlike, it's like that interaction
with another person helps meremember it. Because Mhmm. My
husband always makes money.
He's not from I'm from themiddle of nowhere, and he's not
(12:34):
from down here. And he alwayswill, like, point to, like,
crops and stuff and ask me whatwhat it is, and he's always
like, how do you know? I'm like,I don't know. I just know. Like
and I'm sure it's because I justwas with I learn I just listened
to people talk about it over andover and over again Yeah.
Until it's just in there. Andbut, yeah, it it depends on I do
(12:56):
see that, and I see that with mykids too. Like and and it
depends on the kid. Like, my onekid, like Mhmm. Remembers
everything.
She's just if she's interestedin it, she knows about it. Like
Mhmm. And that means a lot. But,yeah, it's
Walter Matia (13:10):
Yeah.
Katie Burke (13:11):
It's interesting because growing up, I grew up
outdoorsy and also very intoart. I was always an artsy kid.
I loved to draw and paint andtook art lessons for many years,
but also, like, hunted andfished and all that stuff as a
kid. But, like, I never you kindof married you kinda kept them
(13:35):
together, whereas I I kind ofkept them separate. Like, they
were two different intereststhat didn't necessarily yeah, I
didn't overlap.
It was almost like two differentparts of myself, and you kind of
kept it all together, which isreally interesting, and you made
it work for you. I mean,obviously, you you went to the
you were at that museum whereyou got to do a lot of stuff and
(13:55):
you got to do taxidermy, is abig part I think for what you do
later, and I'd I'd like to hearmore about how that influenced
you as a sculptor. But Mhmm. Andthen you go to the nature
conservancy right after college.So What?
Yeah. You had, like, you kind ofalways they kind of always were
weaving back and forth, like, asthe same thing, which is really
(14:17):
is interesting. Probably thebetter way of doing it. But,
yeah, like, I always kept themvery separate until now.
Walter Matia (14:25):
Yeah. It's it's it's both. I mean, I still keep
them both. Mhmm. You know, I I II did go to work for an
organization called The NatureConservancy, and I worked there
for I think it was eleven ortwelve years.
(14:48):
I had five or six different jobswhile I was there, and and each
one of them was both differentand cumulative. I I started out
in sort of research onfreshwater mussels of the
Tennessee River drainage. Andthen I went from there, and I
(15:12):
was sent out to Washington Stateto run something called one of
their natural heritage programs,which was an endangered species
plant community and endangeredplant inventory.
Katie Burke (15:24):
Okay.
Walter Matia (15:25):
And I did that for a couple of years. And then I
came back to the headquarters inDC where I was assigned to their
stewardship department for theirland management division. Okay.
And I eventually ran that forfive or six years, which was the
(15:46):
greatest job in the world. Imean, I I got to travel all over
the country visiting the thethousand or so properties that
the Nature Conservancy owned atthe time.
But the important part of it wasthat I got to see the country
through the eyes of really,really good field biologists.
Yeah. You know? So you'd spendyou'd spend a half a day or so
(16:10):
in the office doing budgets andplans and, you know, fundraising
strategy. Yep.
And then you'd get out on theland for a couple of days. And
these people really knew stuff.So that that, you know, knowing
the name of something is cool.Yeah. Knowing why it's there is
(16:36):
really interesting.
Katie Burke (16:37):
And, yeah, why
Walter Matia (16:38):
Knowing how to knowing how to keep it there,
that's like the holy grail ofconservation.
Katie Burke (16:45):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (16:46):
And and so I I, you know, I got to see all
portions of it, and it wasterrific. I mean, it's a
wonderful wonderful job, youknow, so naturally I quit to do
something else.
Katie Burke (16:58):
Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah. But you're also at
that time, aren't you so you areso when do you switch into
sculpting? Because, like,through that because you're not
always as you don't start out.
I mean, you did you did did youdo more like printmaking and
etching and stuff in school? Didyou do you didn't do sculpting?
Walter Matia (17:18):
I was an yeah. I was I was an intaglio printmaker
in college, but Yeah. Butthat's, you know, that's sort of
immaterial. That that was it wasa I mean, it was a wonderful
well, I I guess, in fact, itwasn't quite as random as that.
Katie Burke (17:34):
I mean, you're still doing negative space.
Walter Matia (17:36):
I love I love process. Yeah. I mean, I love
the engineering of things, andintaglio printmaking sort of
scratched that itch.
Katie Burke (17:46):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (17:49):
And and, you know, certainly sculpture is, you
know, just sort of constantlytrying to figure out how the
hell to make something.
Katie Burke (17:59):
Yeah. And you're still dealing with, like,
working, you know, I like Idon't know if that's not the
right word, but you're workingbackwards almost. You know? It's
not like painting where you'rebuilding on top. You're working.
You're neg it's like negativework. Like so because you're not
yeah. What you're what you'reputting is not what you're
getting necessarily, likebecause, you know, yeah, you're
(18:21):
working in negative space to acertain degree.
Walter Matia (18:24):
Yeah. Which is helpful. Both ways. Yeah. You're
working Which both is a little alittle different than painting,
although, you know, goodpainting, good sculpture, they
have the same elements.
Katie Burke (18:35):
Yeah. So but that that does help you to go what
I'm saying is it helps you gointo sculpture. Like, you are
learning techniques and thingsthat will then transfer unless
Walter Matia (18:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the the the things
that I did at the museum wereobviously more applicable. Yep.
If only that, you know, some ofthe subsculpture actually is
simply understanding tools.
Yeah. And understandingadhesives and understanding
(19:09):
understanding bonding agents andunder you know, there's I mean,
you know, people every once inwhile, somebody will say, well,
do you ever teach classes? And Isay, well, I haven't for years.
And they said, well, would you?I said, well, truth be told, if
you actually gave me a day and ahalf, I could teach you how to
sculpt.
(19:30):
Right. Now whether you wouldactually work at it enough to
get any good at it, that's up toyou. But it's it's mostly the
the if you can just get by someof the rudimentary problems that
sort of stop people in theirtracks. Mhmm. You know, they
(19:50):
they're they're afraid ofcertain things.
You're like, well, you know,yes, they're hard. But if you
understand what they are, it itit reduces a lot of the the
mystery to it.
Katie Burke (20:00):
Yeah. And there's a high, like, failure. Like,
you're not when you fail asculpture, it's it's not like
failing in a painting. You can'tjust I mean, I guess watercolor
is that way in some ways. It'snot much you can do about what
that mistake.
But, yeah, you you kinda almosthave to it's it's hard to fix a
mistake. Right? Like, it's notyou kinda have to go back. The
Walter Matia (20:24):
the the hard part of sculpture, and, you know, I
don't wanna make this toodaunting. But Yeah. You when
you're learning to paint, you'remaking mistakes at about 3 and a
half dollars apiece.
Katie Burke (20:41):
Yep. Exactly. That's what yeah. It's so
Walter Matia (20:42):
you're when you're learning to sculpt, you're
making mistakes at 1,500 to$2,000 apiece. Yeah. And they're
just the simple truth is youhave to make almost the same
number of mistakes. Yeah. Youknow?
I mean, you gotta do 500paintings before you have any
idea what you're doing. Yep.Well, you don't have to do 500
(21:03):
sculptures, but you gotta do 50.Mhmm. You know?
And and you're at a $100,000 intraining. Yep. That is probably
the more daunting aspect ofsculpture for a younger person.
Katie Burke (21:18):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (21:18):
You know, you you just burn through money trying
to figure out how to do it, andthere's no there there are very
little there there's very fewways you can avoid avoid it. I
mean, you know, some people aresmarter than I am, but I'm sure
I blew through a $100,000.
Katie Burke (21:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, you have to make those mistakes.
That's just that's part of it.Like, that's all art. You have
to make mistakes to learn tolearn your process, to learn
what works.
Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. It'sjust yeah. It's a higher it's
higher stakes when it comes tosculpture.
Yeah. So I wanna go back beforewe get too far ahead. I wanna go
(22:00):
back to a little bit in themuseum with doing the the
taxidermy stuff because I don'tthink people really realize at
that time, you weren't, like,that y'all weren't buying molds
and stuff for taxidermy. Youwere making the molds. Correct?
Like, were doing that in inhouse.
Walter Matia (22:18):
I'd I'd love to romantically say that's what we
were doing, but in truth, thiswas museum taxidermy.
Katie Burke (22:25):
Oh, yeah. And it's different. It's not the same.
Walter Matia (22:27):
We we didn't we didn't actually melt that many
animals. I mean, mostly, we weredoing skeleton preparation and
study skins and things likethat. We Yep. We we really we
didn't need to add that manyactual mounts
Katie Burke (22:43):
No.
Walter Matia (22:43):
To the collections.
Katie Burke (22:44):
I'm guessing you're doing repairs and stuff too.
Like
Walter Matia (22:47):
Yeah. You were doing it was more of that, but
you you skinned out a lot ofanimals, and you learn you learn
the structure Mhmm. Of howthings were how things were
organized from the inside out.Yeah. And that understanding was
the most important part of myeducation for later sculpture
(23:11):
work.
Yeah. I really know how stuff'sbuilt.
Katie Burke (23:15):
Yeah. No. That that makes a lot of sense. So that
makes me it makes me laughbecause when I was a kid, I
really I was like a horse kid,and I really wanted to paint a
horse of like, that's all Iwanted to do. And my art teacher
was like, well, no.
You can't do it yet. You're notready. And I was young. I was
might be like, I think I waslike 12. And 12 or 13, I just
(23:37):
started doing oils, and she waslike, was like and I wanna do it
immediately, and she was like,no, no, no.
And she was like and I wasdetermined. I just like would
ask every week I'd show up andlike, okay, I wanna do a horse,
and she was like, no. Andfinally, was like, okay, you can
do a horse if you do the entireskeleton, and, like, she made me
do all this stuff to, like,prepare to do it and it took me
(24:00):
probably it took me a few monthsto get through all the little
anatomy things she made me drawand Uh-huh. And eventually, I
did it. I've when I got thereand I did a horse and it's I
still have it.
It's not terrible for the age Iwas, but I definitely understood
when I went to do it, like, shemade me go through all of that
(24:22):
work. Like, it it made adifference because I knew what
was underneath
Walter Matia (24:25):
the skin. You were lucky you were lucky to run into
a teacher like that. I mean, atone level, you know, I I truly
believe all kids are artisticuntil they're told they're not.
Katie Burke (24:35):
Yep. I
Walter Matia (24:36):
I think it's one of the saddest things in the
world. Yeah.
Katie Burke (24:39):
I agree.
Walter Matia (24:40):
If you had real desire and if you had some
skills, having a teacher thatwill make you slow down enough
to understand what you'reactually asking to do, That's a
rare thing because she obviouslycared about you.
Katie Burke (24:55):
Yeah. No. She's wonderful. I love her. It's like
I still I still talk to her tothis day.
Mhmm. But, yeah, I was yeah. Ishe made me go through, and I do
I understand what you mean.Like, you going through and
skinning all those you know,preparing all those skins and
stuff, you learned what'sunderneath, and so much of
movement is knowing the anatomyof an animal.
Walter Matia (25:19):
Well, certainly, I mean, it's not as in some ways,
it's not as critical with birdsbecause birds are a whole
different problem. Yep. Butcertainly, most mammals in
general is they're basicallyjust a series of planes Mhmm.
Where bones come to the surface.Yep.
And if you know where thoseplanes are going and if you know
(25:42):
where those bones are coming tothe surface, it's gonna look
right. Yeah. If you don't knowwhere those things are, it's
not. You know, it's really thatsimple. And it doesn't matter
whether you're sculpting orpainting or, you know, doing
printing or I mean, it justknowing those those specific
anatomical points isn'tnecessarily gonna make it
(26:06):
artistic.
Katie Burke (26:07):
No. But you'll get it right.
Walter Matia (26:08):
From being wrong.
Katie Burke (26:10):
Yeah. Yes. You won't look at and go something's
wrong with that, like, to havethat Yeah.
Walter Matia (26:16):
Well, you you undoubtedly will, but it it it
will be something else.
Katie Burke (26:20):
Yes. But the the random person won't look at it
and go, there that that, youknow, dog looks funny. I mean, I
can't quite figure out
Walter Matia (26:28):
why. Well, there's I mean, there are levels of the
game. I mean, the the insculpture, the the female the
female torso and the male torso,that's really hard. Yeah.
Because we all have one, and weall kind of know what it looks
like.
Yeah. Horses are the nexthardest thing just because the
(26:51):
the iconography of the horse isso embedded Mhmm. In all of our
history.
Katie Burke (26:56):
Yep.
Walter Matia (26:58):
The next after that are dogs because, you know,
we all got them, you know, andthey are they're very subtle.
Yep. The the hardest animal tosculpt, think, hardest mammal to
sculpt outside of a human is theis the cat.
Katie Burke (27:15):
Oh, really?
Walter Matia (27:16):
Yeah. It is. And and the problem with cats are
that they, in fact, have nobones.
Katie Burke (27:22):
I'll say it's because they have such loose
They're they're Yeah.
Walter Matia (27:25):
They're they're kinda like yogurt in a sack.
Katie Burke (27:27):
Yeah. So I was gonna say it's because they're
so loose skinned. Yeah.
Walter Matia (27:31):
They're so loose, and a dog can only do certain
things. A horse can only docertain things. A cow can only
do certain things. A cat, Imean, you can tie the damn thing
in a knot because of how it'show the axial processes in its
vertebrae are are organized.
Katie Burke (27:50):
Yep.
Walter Matia (27:52):
So they're really hard.
Katie Burke (27:53):
Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. Because they can
kinda do you know, that I canI've never I'm not a cat person,
so I never thought about it veryhard. But, yeah, I I can see
that now.
They say and then their skinkinda can hang loose on them
too. Right. Yeah. Which doesn'thelp either.
Walter Matia (28:10):
It's a they're they're complicated. But,
anyway, just just having havingdissected as it were, I don't
know, hundreds and hundreds ofanimals, there are very few
things that I probably couldn'tjust draw you out of my head.
(28:31):
Right. Mhmm. And and this isprobably jumping ahead, but but,
you know, in in all art forms,you know, we all go from
initially just wanting to get itright to wanting to both get it
(28:55):
right and identify what we wannasay about it.
And in that continuum is, youknow, the whole question of
intent. And you it's verydifficult to have intent in your
work if you're always lookingback and forth to what it what
what you're trying to figure outwhat it actually looks like. You
(29:18):
know? You you can you're onceyou've once you sort of know
that your hands and your headare working in in process with
each other, then you can reallydo some great things.
Katie Burke (29:33):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (29:34):
But but it's a it's a learning curve that you
cannot avoid. You know? You yougotta get it right to start, and
then you gotta let your headsort of organize what you're
really gonna do because justgetting it right isn't gonna get
you there.
Katie Burke (29:48):
It's like putting in your, as I say, your ten
thousand hours. And then Yeah.And then, you know, and then you
can go.
Walter Matia (29:56):
That that outliers was pretty interesting. So I
think people really concentrateon the wrong the wrong thing.
Yeah. You know? It's it's notthe ten thousand hours.
It's the fact that even if youput in the ten thousand hours,
if you didn't have the four orfive mentors in your life on the
way, you still were highlyunlikely to be successful.
Katie Burke (30:22):
Yeah. No. That's a good spot. Alright. Let's take a
quick break for commercial, andwe'll be right back.
I'm here with Walter Matia, andlet's just jump back in. So I
(30:43):
okay. That was a really goodpoint about the mentors, and I
I'd like you to go in. I knowyou mentioned a few of them
already. Could you kind of talkabout the mentors in your life
and their importance and justthe importance of mentors kinda
more in general and how they've,you know, helped you in your
career?
Walter Matia (31:06):
Well, I probably should have thought a little
about that, but I I can say thatI had three very specific no.
Four mentors in in at criticaltimes. One was the man I talked
about earlier, Larry Izzard, whowas the taxidermist preparer or
(31:29):
whatever Mhmm. For the NaturalHistory Museum in Cleveland. And
and and he, I mean, he basicallywas just a guide to my early
development of things that Ineeded to know.
Mhmm. You know? He was the guythat basically said, alright.
You you do need to know how toskin something out. You do need
to understand the musculature.
(31:50):
You do need to understandsomething about the chemicals to
keep yourself from killingyourself. You do need to
understand, you know, thingsabout different materials and
adhesives. And and so he he wasthat person. He also was the guy
that got me into bird hunting.So that's a whole other
different thing, which is butwhen I got to the nature
(32:14):
conservancy, the man who Ibasically worked for was a man
named doctor Robert Jenkins, whowas the head of science for the
Nature Conservancy.
And if you are lucky in yourlife, you will work for one
person who a, has a really goodidea worth working very hard for
(32:39):
and who was willing to throw youat problems that were always
just a little beyond what youthought you knew how to do.
Mhmm. And, you know, Bobbasically, you know, he sent me
down to Capitol Hill to work onlegislation, and then he sent me
(33:03):
to a television program in SaintLouis to be on stage with Marlon
Perkins and the head of theMissouri Botanic Gardens. And
then he sent me to California tonegotiate a contract with the
state of California. And then hethen he sent me to Washington
State, you know, to run ondangerous pieces inventory.
And, you know, that one I didn'tknow how to do any of this shit.
(33:28):
But and and some of it I didwell and some of it I did badly.
Mhmm. But he was constantlypushing me to try and do things
that I didn't know how to dobefore. And because I had such
tremendous respect for the man,you know, I I felt terrible when
(33:52):
I screwed up.
Katie Burke (33:53):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (33:54):
But he never he never dwelled on that. You know?
He just always dwelled on thenext thing. Yeah. That's an
amazing mentor.
Mhmm. And then as I got into thesculpting world, we talked
(34:15):
earlier about just the cost ofbecoming a sculptor. I did meet
two people who became mybusiness partners, and we formed
a corporation. They had they hadsome some wealth and so they
(34:37):
could basically absorb some ofthe losses of the corporation.
Mhmm.
But it was both their theirfinancial support, but it was
the the the mental support aswell. I mean, they they kept me
really focused on what I neededto get done. And then lastly, I
(35:03):
I met a guy just as I wasquitting the nature I think it
was about, I don't know, maybe ayear before I was actually
leaving the nature conservancy.A man named William Reese, who
was a fabulous painter andsculptor. He was from Washington
State, and he pretty much beatme up for about thirty years,
(35:34):
forcing me to not be satisfiedwith what I was doing, but also
sort of insisting that I try allkinds of things in my art
career.
He used to quote, I think it wasMichelangelo, who said something
effective, there is no artist sostupid he cannot be trained to
(35:55):
do one thing well. Beware, oh,painter.
Katie Burke (35:59):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (35:59):
And and Bill just, you know, insisted that I learn
how to paint. He insisted thatI, you know, thought more about
figures. He insisted that I, youknow, not not his main point was
once you were doing somethingwell, it was really time to move
(36:21):
on.
Katie Burke (36:22):
Mhmm.
Walter Matia (36:23):
Because allowing yourself to drop into a comfort
zone, was sort of the death ofyour creativity.
Katie Burke (36:34):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (36:35):
And the other thing about Bill was, and I
don't want this to sound toobad, but, you know, I was from
the East Coast, and I wasinterested in animals. And those
two factors could pretty quicklythrow you into a silo of artists
(36:59):
that were sort of, you know,sort of the winner of the duck
stamp was a big deal. Mhmm. AndBill was like, do you wanna win
the duck stamp? I go, no.
I got no interest in it. Hegoes, then let's let's try and
pick your heroes here.
Katie Burke (37:19):
Right.
Walter Matia (37:21):
And he and he introduced me to sort of the
Western art world. He introducedme to much of American art of
the nineteenth century andtwentieth century. He introduced
me to, you know, to to Russianpainters, Russian landscape
painters, Levitan, Russianportrait painters, Seraph and
(37:47):
Rappine. Mhmm. Bill justinsisted that sort of my
artistic yardsticks were reallywell calibrated.
Mhmm. And had I nabbed thatbill, I I my life would have
been very, very different. Yeah.Because I simply, you know, I
(38:07):
would have chased differentthings, and they would not have
been anywhere near satisfying tome.
Katie Burke (38:12):
Yeah. And I I that's one thing. And, like, I
noticed when I look at yourstuff, like, you have very I
mean, it's very years. Like,yeah, I can tell your sculpture,
like, immediately. It's it'svery yeah.
You have a very specific styleand, yeah, it's pretty uniquely
(38:32):
you. And when it comes to, likeand, you know, I talk to a lot
of artists and there's, youknow, there's nothing wrong with
going for the Doug Stamp, but itdoes seem to be it does kind of
take and I don't know if this isand I this might be more of a
criticism of the rules of theduck stamp. I get the reason to
(38:55):
go for the duck stamp. It itmakes a lot of these painters'
careers, but they've they've gotthe rules down to such a
specific thing. Like, it'salmost and I've talked to Adam
Grimm about it, and he'll tellyou that it's a it's it's a
science to win it.
Like, he knows, like, this isthis is how to win the duck
(39:18):
stamp.
Walter Matia (39:19):
Mhmm. And Or or this is how to not win the duck
stamp.
Katie Burke (39:24):
Yeah. And this oh, yeah. And this is how to not win
the ducks. I mean, he even picksthe species by what he thinks
the judges will pick. Yeah.
He yeah. And he and and I don'tknow. I'm not gonna talk about,
like, someone like him. Like, Idon't think, you know, he's a
very talented person, but Ithink when it comes to people
(39:45):
coming up in that field, itdefinitely has such a big
influence that it changes whatthey do as an artist. And I
think you to make a statement,it's pretty brave to say early
on that you're not gonna dothat.
You're gonna go about it adifferent way because it's not
(40:07):
necessarily gonna be a easierway. But I mean, could be.
Walter Matia (40:13):
It I I'm not gonna listen. I'm not I'm not gonna
presume that that I could everpaint well enough
Katie Burke (40:20):
To do that. Yeah.
Walter Matia (40:21):
Actually win the ducks stamp. I don't know if I
could.
Katie Burke (40:24):
Yeah. But definitely influences what they
become.
Walter Matia (40:27):
People that do it, And and and they're
extraordinary.
Katie Burke (40:30):
Yeah. They are.
Walter Matia (40:31):
Forget it. Love it. Let's they're extraordinary.
Katie Burke (40:33):
They are.
Walter Matia (40:34):
I just it I was simply I just wasn't interested
in it.
Katie Burke (40:40):
Yeah. I think my complaint with the duck stamp is
that I wish they would loosenthe rules. Like
Walter Matia (40:47):
Well, I don't I don't want them to change their
rules, to be honest with you.They come up with a really they
come up with a really goodstamp. Yeah. That's the job.
They're they're coming up with astamp.
And so I don't it was listen.There's plenty of other places
to exercise your artisticcreativity.
Katie Burke (41:04):
Yep.
Walter Matia (41:05):
This is their these were their rules.
Katie Burke (41:07):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (41:08):
Play by it. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't I don't
really wanna change their rules.I I judged the duck stamp a
number of years ago. It wasfascinating.
Katie Burke (41:17):
Yeah. I've I've been I wanna do it one day.
Walter Matia (41:20):
But it it's no. I mean, the the you know, I the
the the people whose work in thesporting art world that I
gravitated to were Frank BensonYeah. And Ogden Pleisner Yeah.
And John Cowan.
Katie Burke (41:37):
And Lasso. Did you like Lasso?
Walter Matia (41:39):
And Lasso Ripley and Richard Bishop. And those
were those were where Iinitially gravitated to because
I had access to a lot of theiroriginals in Cleveland.
Katie Burke (41:54):
I guess that's my thing is I miss those those I
sometimes I wish we could do aearly style. Like, I miss the
early style of the duck stampbecause I also gravitate towards
those as well. And Yeah. I miss
Walter Matia (42:08):
them a I you know, it's, again, don't don't don't
ask an apple to be an orange.
Katie Burke (42:13):
Yeah. It's true.
Walter Matia (42:14):
It's it's
Katie Burke (42:15):
You're right.
Walter Matia (42:16):
You're right. They got their thing. The the stamps
are beautiful.
Katie Burke (42:20):
They are.
Walter Matia (42:21):
The guys that know how to do it know how to do it,
and I don't think it's worthreally worrying about.
Katie Burke (42:26):
We just need more, etching people to etch more
often out there.
Walter Matia (42:32):
It's it's not gonna happen. I mean, I think,
who was the last person that dida well, what is it? Alderson
McGee did a scratch board. Ithink that was the last black
and white Yeah. Stamp.
Katie Burke (42:43):
It was. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (42:46):
No. You're right. I guess maybe you know, I it's
it's see, I yeah. So what?
Katie Burke (42:52):
Yeah. So
Walter Matia (42:53):
What's what's interesting to me about sort of
the sporting art world, and andit's it's it's both in sculpture
and in painting, I just don'tsee that huge an evolution from
(43:16):
Benson and Pleisner and Ripleyand Bishop. I I Yeah. I would
have thought that, you know,sort of fifty years sixty fifty
years on that we would be seeinga lot of very different
approaches to it. But I I havesort of this sense that the sort
(43:48):
of the catechism of the sportingart world is such that so many
places that people paint are onkind of this grand tour. Mhmm.
Whether it's, you know, saltflats in Texas or flooded timber
in Arkansas or yeah. You know,it's just the places that people
(44:14):
choose to talk about thesporting art world are fairly
limited in a funny way.
Katie Burke (44:22):
Yeah. Never thought about that.
Walter Matia (44:25):
And I don't I I don't know. And, you know, the
client base for people in thesporting art world are pretty
literal people.
Katie Burke (44:40):
Yeah. No. That's very true. Yeah. That's
extremely true.
And and it's I was just talkingto I I just interviewed Scott
Storm, and he was talking, youknow, a lot of and I actually
and like that he did thisbecause I don't think everyone
(45:01):
does this, but a lot of hiscommissions are for people to
come, you know, basically painttheir duck hole or where they,
yeah, where they hunt. And heactually, like, insists to go
there and be there and huntthere, which I I don't think I
(45:21):
don't know if that I don't knowif that's the the normal thing.
Pretty normal. Okay. That is?
Okay.
Walter Matia (45:27):
It's pretty it's pretty normal.
Katie Burke (45:28):
Yeah. Which I'm glad because I was like, having
to do it from images, don'tthink you would get it. But,
yeah, I was like, but he goes tothose places because that's I
mean and by speaking to that,people are literal. Like, I was
saying, you're they're gettingcommissions for literal places,
like, for physical places. Mhmm.
So Yeah. They're not they'rethat's you're getting because
(45:50):
that's what your client I mean,because it's you have to make a
living. Right? Like, this isit's a business ultimately. It's
what you do.
So
Walter Matia (45:58):
I mean, you you didn't win the the uterine
Katie Burke (46:00):
lottery? Exactly.
Walter Matia (46:02):
How silly of you.
Katie Burke (46:03):
So, yeah, like, you can't just do it for fun. So,
yeah, I mean Yeah. So that, Imean, market drives the art as
well, and it's interesting.
Walter Matia (46:16):
You can say that, you know, right up to the point
where you Mhmm. Sort of look atthe people who no longer needed
the money. Yeah. Bishop Benson,in particular. God, his his
Marchines don't look likeanybody else's Marchines, and
they're fabulous.
Yeah. And they have averisimilitude to them that no
(46:40):
photograph is gonna give youbecause he's not painting
something he even saw. Yeah.They're he's making it up.
Katie Burke (46:49):
He's making
Walter Matia (46:49):
it up. His winter scenes are cold as hell.
Katie Burke (46:52):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (46:53):
You know?
Katie Burke (46:53):
He's making
Walter Matia (46:54):
it They're they're full of mosquitoes in the fall.
They're I mean, you just getthis stance that he was there,
and he is doing the impressionof what was there. He was
representing what was there.Yeah. And and as a result, you
look at those things and they'remagic.
Katie Burke (47:15):
Do you think that happens more at the end of a
artist's career? Like, they havethat ability the freedom to do
more of that once they've No.
Walter Matia (47:27):
I mean, some people are some people just have
have more guts than others.
Katie Burke (47:31):
Mhmm.
Walter Matia (47:32):
And some people are in different financial
situations.
Katie Burke (47:35):
Yeah. That's yeah. That's why I was kinda leaning
Walter Matia (47:37):
You know? I mean, it's it's I mean, I I had a job
before I did this. You know, Isaved a little bit of money
before I quit to sculpt. I linedup some investors after I
decided this or before I decidedto to sculpt full time. Mhmm.
So I wasn't terrified every timeI went to an art show that I had
(48:00):
to sell something.
Katie Burke (48:00):
Right.
Walter Matia (48:02):
Well, I'll tell you that is a level of freedom
that a lot of my really dearfriends never had. Yeah. You
know? They had to sellsomething. They had, you know,
two kids and a spouse, you know,that were on the other end of
the phone kinda going, well,what happened?
Yeah. It's a it's a verydifferent level of of well, it's
(48:28):
harder. I'll leave it at that.
Katie Burke (48:30):
Yeah. No. It makes sense. It's interesting. Okay.
So I wanna go back a little bitbecause we kinda went off there,
which happens a lot in this inthese podcasts because I get
curious. So I wanna talk moreabout, like, we are we haven't
talked as much about your workspecifically now and, like, in
(48:53):
since you became, you know, afull time sculptress. But I
think the thing I like aboutyour sculpture, and I and I
don't know if this is true toyou, but I this is what I when I
see it, I always feel like youranimals it's like somebody else
(49:13):
is there. Like, there's doesthat make sense? Like, the way
they're reacting feels likethey're not alone.
Like, they have this which Ilike, like, they have this like,
it's almost like they'resomething is walking up on them
or they're they're reacting tosomething in, like, another
animal, but that's the thing Ialways notice about, like,
(49:36):
particularly your I love toturkey hunt and I love turkeys,
but your turkeys always give methat impression like, oh, no.
They're on to me.
Walter Matia (49:48):
That did. I don't wanna use that as
Katie Burke (49:50):
a title. Oh, no. They're on to me.
Walter Matia (49:53):
That's good. That's actually my name. If I
ever go to their turkey, I'mgonna use that, and I'll I'll
credit you.
Katie Burke (49:57):
Thanks. I appreciate it. So there's a
reason
Walter Matia (50:02):
for I mean, first off, thank you. You you get it.
You're you're absolutely right.And and part of this is the
contract that you make as asporting artist. You know,
something is either the hunteror the hunted.
Yeah. And both of them havegotta be in the storyline. Yeah.
(50:27):
So I am very attentive to thegestures of reaction.
Katie Burke (50:36):
Okay. Yeah. I could
Walter Matia (50:37):
see that. I'm very attentive to what I will call
the range of motion of somethingin that one of the I call it
sort of the seeing, knowingmatrix. You know, we're at a
(50:58):
point now with digitalphotography and videography and
whatever else that, frankly, youcan know everything.
Katie Burke (51:09):
Yeah. I
Walter Matia (51:10):
mean, there's absolutely no reason to get
something wrong.
Katie Burke (51:16):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (51:18):
But you're a hunter. You really can only see
what you can see Mhmm. Fromfifteen, twenty yards away. Yep.
And I try to make sure that mypieces don't really give you any
more information than you couldsee from 15 or so yards away.
(51:42):
I don't pick a flight gesturethat you can't actually sort of
see in your head. Mhmm. Youknow, there are if I've sculpted
hundreds of waterfowl pieces inmy life.
Katie Burke (52:00):
I love your teal.
Walter Matia (52:02):
His But I don't pick any gesture that isn't at
sort of that range of motion inthe wing flight Mhmm. That it
isn't sort of either at the endof a range of motion or just
starting into the next one.
Katie Burke (52:17):
Okay.
Walter Matia (52:17):
I don't do stuff that's halfway Mhmm. Because
it's going too fast for your eyeto really pick that up.
Katie Burke (52:24):
Right.
Walter Matia (52:25):
And it looks weird to
Katie Burke (52:27):
me. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (52:29):
And it kinda messes up it messes with the
silhouette. Mhmm. So, you know,I'm basically sculpting for what
I will call a hunter's distance.
Katie Burke (52:40):
Okay. That makes sense. I can see that too, like,
the way when you say that, and Iwish people need to go online
and look, but I think of, like,the way you do your teal, your
flying teal, it's definitelyvery much what you see when
they, like, buzz through likethat. Like, it's just
Walter Matia (53:02):
Mhmm.
Katie Burke (53:02):
They're all different. They're all flipped
different directions and they'reI mean, obviously, they you know
they're doing more than that,but you can't see. Like, it's
too fast.
Walter Matia (53:15):
I basically yeah. It's well, you can't you can't
see it. And so what you'reyou're basically trying to do is
you're trying to engineer speed.
Katie Burke (53:26):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (53:28):
And you're doing that by how you're organizing
the groupings of them, howyou're organizing the negative
spaces between them, and howyou're organizing just the
spacing sort of left to right.And I don't know. I think I I in
(53:49):
order to do those teal pieces, Ithink I modeled about 12
different teal and differentposes.
Katie Burke (53:54):
That's what I was gonna ask you. I'm guessing.
Walter Matia (53:56):
And when I when I build one of those pieces, I
will have 10 or 11 differentpieces on the floor to pick
from, and I may only use four of
Katie Burke (54:07):
them. Okay.
Walter Matia (54:08):
But I just keep I'll I'll put one up. I'll I'll
build the Marscene, or I'llbuild the structure of the
Marscene. I'll add a bird, thenI'll add another bird, then I'll
add another bird, and thenvariably, I'll cut one off and
put a different one therebecause it just doesn't have the
right whatever. Or I can't getthe eyes completely level based
(54:33):
on how I need to attach it tothe reeds. Mhmm.
Or clearly, looks like it'sengineered, at which point you
gotta start again because it hasto be engineered but not look
engineered. Mhmm. And you justkeep going, you know, you keep
(54:54):
going back and forth until youget an arrangement that radiates
either speed or confusion, or itjust depends what you're what
you're going for.
Katie Burke (55:06):
Going for. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (55:07):
I mean, know, it's what is your intent of the
piece? I mean, you do have tostart with that. You know, you
can't you can't noodle your wayinto that. If if you don't have
an idea in your head, it'll bevery obvious pretty quickly.
Katie Burke (55:22):
Yeah. So with that, do you when you're when you have
an idea like, I'm guessing sowhen you when you have an idea,
so do you sketch it out andthink of a pattern, like, on
paper and then go Really? No.You just kinda start No. Playing
around
Walter Matia (55:42):
and see how I mean
Katie Burke (55:44):
How does that
Walter Matia (55:45):
is a lot of a lot of times, it's because you're
doing it for a peer by person
Katie Burke (55:50):
Right.
Walter Matia (55:50):
And you're doing it for a space. So that defines
your scale and it defines someof your ideas. Other times,
you're just doing for one foryourself, and then the reality
of shipping and crating and allthe rest of the stuff comes in
that you kinda go, well, if Imake this thing 79 inches tall,
(56:11):
I can build the crate out of onepiece of plywood. If I build it
81 inches tall, I gotta use twopieces of I mean, you know and
and you start you know, you thethe business side of your head
sort of comes in. And then youkinda go, oh, screw it.
(56:31):
I'll buy more plywood. It reallyneeds to be 83 inches tall.
Katie Burke (56:35):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (56:35):
You know? Because I need to get that one bird that
much higher. And to get it thatmuch higher, I have to use a
reed that's that much heavier,that farther up to, you know,
for the support. And, you know,it just then it becomes this
engineering thing. How are yougonna do it?
So, again, it's gonna holdtogether, but it's not gonna
look like you're constantlysticking a stick up its butt,
(56:58):
which drives me crazy when Ilook at people's sculptures.
Yeah. It's like they knowthey've gotta support it, and
this is like, well, why? Whywould you do that?
Katie Burke (57:09):
Right. No. I I do notice that too. It's good thing
you like process.
Walter Matia (57:14):
Well, no. I do. I I love the process of it.
Katie Burke (57:19):
Yeah. It is yeah. It is you're solving a problem,
like, basically, constantly.Yeah. That's really interesting.
Yeah. No. I I do. I like that. Ialso noticed that, like because
you're right.
I mean, obviously, you're right.But when you say that, like,
it's what you can see, like,because, like, from a hunter's
(57:41):
point of view, because I thinkabout that again with your
turkeys and how one thing you dois you don't do every feather or
anything like that. It's notsoup it is detailed, but it's
not super detailed, but thedetail I like that people
probably don't notice is aturkey's feathers will sometimes
go different directions. Like,they don't necessarily let you
(58:01):
know, they like, the wind willblow them and it's such that
suggestion you have of that inyour turkeys is so like, it
makes it it's it's veryaccurate. Like, you could talk
about the mammals and they havethe planes and you have to get
that all right, but that littlebit of a detail in a turkey is
only a turkey hunter knows thatabout a turkey.
(58:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Like.
Walter Matia (58:23):
Well, the I mean, you know, some birds are more I
don't do a whole lot of reallysmall birds. I
Katie Burke (58:29):
mean, I've done some. You did a kingfisher not
long ago. I like the
Walter Matia (58:33):
No. Yeah. I had a friend that said that she wanted
a woodcock. And and then shesaid, well, actually, what I
want is three woodcock. And I'mlike, that's a little pushy.
But but they they've been goodfriends, and so I did them. But
that's about as small a bird asI've done in a long time. Yeah.
And and you can get away withsomething like a woodcock
(58:55):
because there there are They'refunny. Aspects of them that are
just so completely goofy.
Katie Burke (59:00):
Yes. They're goofy goofy. Cooper Then you can
Cooper, Rossner that works forJohn loves woodcocks, and I'm
like, they're the weirdest,ugliest, little goofy bird.
Walter Matia (59:10):
No. Ugly is not the right word. They're just
they're just so adapt adapted tosuch a weird thing.
Katie Burke (59:17):
That's who they are. They're very specific.
Walter Matia (59:18):
And so they've got they got they got a great
character. But let's say we'regoing back to turkeys. You know?
I mean, I don't live out west.If if if I lived in Colorado, I
might have been I might havebeen lured into doing big game.
Yeah. But I got nothing to sayabout elk and moose and bears
and Say Oh my.
Katie Burke (59:38):
I grew up in Mississippi. Yeah. We don't do
that.
Walter Matia (59:41):
I I know nothing about them. You know? And and I
have nothing to say about them.
Katie Burke (59:46):
Right.
Walter Matia (59:47):
But turkeys are kinda eastern big game. Yeah.
You know? I see them all thetime, And they are you can
because they're large andbecause their feathers are in so
many different shapes andplanes, you can treat them like
muscle groups. Mhmm.
(01:00:08):
And and you really can you cando a lot of stuff with them.
Yeah. You know? And I thinkthat's what you're reacting to
is all the subtle planal shiftswhich throw light back at you
Yep. In so many different ways.
Katie Burke (01:00:28):
They do that in real life.
Walter Matia (01:00:29):
Fun to sculpt.
Katie Burke (01:00:30):
Yeah. And they do that in real life. Like, you can
the Yeah. They shine and stuffand oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Yeah. No. I also yeah. No. Youdo you're right.
Like and I think about that,like, with your herons and stuff
too. It's like, yeah, we don'thave big game. Like, that's
true. And I guess that's No.Maybe I never thought about that
being from where I'm from andwhere I hunt, but these are the
(01:00:53):
big animals we do have, even thelike, our birds mostly.
Yeah. Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:00:58):
Mean, I I mean, I like deer that eat, I guess.
Katie Burke (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:01:01):
They're they're so annoying otherwise that I serve
her.
Katie Burke (01:01:05):
We we're hunting them now because
Walter Matia (01:01:06):
We're down to about we're down to about four
plants in my garden that theywon't eat. Yes. We've got a herd
of got a herd of about 25 ofthem that are regularly tromping
through eating everything.
Katie Burke (01:01:18):
Oh, yeah.
Walter Matia (01:01:20):
I got I got one I got one guy that hunts the
place. Yeah. And we right nowhave a 12 and a 10. Oh, nice.
Using the yard.
Yeah. And and he just he'ssalivating. And and I have this
we have this we have this deal.I said, you can you can hunt
anything you want as much as youwant, but you have to shoot at
(01:01:42):
least three does. Yeah.
Before you don't you don't haveto do it before you shoot the
buck if you have a chance, butyou gotta shoot at least three
does to maintain the troublethat you're shooting on the
property.
Katie Burke (01:01:54):
No. That's not bad. We luckily have a lot of
grandkids now, and they are nowinto deer hunting. So they yeah.
Deer hunting's pretty it's easy,so they like doing it.
They, you know Mhmm. They're atthat stage as a hunter where
they just wanna shoot stuff.
Walter Matia (01:02:10):
So They wanna shoot stuff. Yeah. I get it.
Katie Burke (01:02:12):
Yeah. Yeah. We all went through it.
Walter Matia (01:02:14):
We all went through it. That's right. Did we
ever?
Katie Burke (01:02:17):
So they're at that stage. So they they help the
they help our maintain our deerpopulation.
Walter Matia (01:02:23):
Yeah.
Katie Burke (01:02:24):
Well, Walter, this has been super fun, but I've had
you for over an hour now. SoWow. Is there anything I know it
goes by fast, doesn't it? Isthere anything that we haven't
talked about that you'd like to,like, mention before we go?
Walter Matia (01:02:42):
No. We we have to we have to hang up before I
remember that.
Katie Burke (01:02:45):
I know. That's that's usually the way that
goes. Well, this has been superfun. You'll have to come back.
Walter Matia (01:02:51):
Alright. Next time, I promise to have an audio
visual capability. How aboutthat?
Katie Burke (01:02:59):
Yes. We'll do it. You know what we need to do is
when I'm in Easton, I need to,like, come out after the
festival, like, and comes visityou in your and do this in your,
like, in your shop, in yourstudio.
Walter Matia (01:03:13):
That'd be fine. Yeah.
Katie Burke (01:03:14):
That would be really fun. Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:03:16):
Now, I'm not gonna go to Easton this year.
Katie Burke (01:03:18):
You're not going to Easton?
Walter Matia (01:03:20):
I just I have the entire month of September, I'm
traveling, entire month ofOctober.
Katie Burke (01:03:28):
Oh, yeah.
Walter Matia (01:03:29):
I've got things I'm supposed to be doing, and I
just Yeah. I can't face it. Ican't face another six days of
setting the stuff up and takingit down.
Katie Burke (01:03:41):
Yeah. And your stuff isn't easy to set up and
take down.
Walter Matia (01:03:44):
No. It's not. They aren't miniatures. You know?
They're just too old for thisstuff.
Katie Burke (01:03:50):
Yeah. No.
Walter Matia (01:03:51):
Well, I'll Actually, I have to go down to I
gotta go down to Thomasville,Georgia the weekend aft the week
after. Yeah. And I've been goingdown there hunting and fishing
now for fifty something years,and there it's one of the it's
they're sort of theiranniversary show, their fortieth
or something, and I said I'd godown and I'd give a talk. And
Katie Burke (01:04:11):
Okay.
Walter Matia (01:04:12):
So I gotta go.
Katie Burke (01:04:13):
Yeah. No. That'll be great. But I'll I mean, I go
to Eastern every year, so wewill make it happen eventually.
Walter Matia (01:04:18):
Alright. Very good.
Katie Burke (01:04:20):
Well, thank you for doing this, Walter. I really
appreciate it.
Thanks to our producers, Chrisand Rachel, and thanks to you,
our listener, for supportingwetlands and waterfowl
conservation.
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited
podcast. I'm your host, KatieBurke. And today on this show, I
have a special guest. I haveWalter Matia.
He is a sculpturist. I guess youwould say that you are a how I
mean, in French, it's is thathow you say it? But we would say
wildlife sculpturist over now, Iguess, is what we would say.
What would you say?
Walter Matia (02:00):
Well, I mean, I'm an animal sculptor. Okay. And
I'm out of the tradition of theFrench Amelier. Which were a
group of people basically backin the eighteen forties led by a
man named Antoine Louis BerryMhmm. Who was the first guy to
actually use animals as aprimary subject, not animals as
(02:21):
sort of an add on to a largerlandscape or a hunt scene or
whatever.
Mhmm. It was animals as animals,and sort of that's a tradition
I'm out of.
Katie Burke (02:30):
Yeah. I I was I was an art history major, so I when
I saw when I was reading aboutyou and everything, I was like,
oh, yeah. I forgot about this.Like, it's been so long that
I've I've forgotten about. Like,I I never even thought to, like,
connect you to that.
But, yeah, that was interestingto go back, and then I fell down
a rabbit hole looking ateverybody's stuff, which was
(02:52):
fun. But alright. So, Walter,let's I'm really excited to have
you on. I love your work, but Iwanna before we get into that,
let's go all the way back tobeginning. So you grew up in
Ohio.
Correct?
Walter Matia (03:05):
Yes. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio.
Katie Burke (03:07):
Yep. And then so what was those early years like
for you in Ohio?
Walter Matia (03:13):
Well, I mean, early years are early years.
Yeah. I I had a I did grow up inCleveland, which had a great
series of museums, both aterrific art museum, a terrific
natural history museum. And Ihad a mother who was very
interested in getting this theheck out of the house. Yep.
(03:35):
And I spent much of my youth,particularly in the winters that
were pretty bleak in Cleveland,at the different museums, either
in drawing classes or justfiddling around looking at
stuff. The the large if it wassort of the seminal moment of my
(03:55):
career in the arts actuallyhappened when was about 14 years
old when I was sort of sent downto the museum having well, my
mother came downstairs, andthere were, like, 16 dead
muskrats in the basement next tothe laundry. And she said enough
was enough, and she called thedirector of the museum at the
(04:17):
time, a man named WilliamShealy, who was a terrific
animal painter, and basicallysaid, Bill, I'm bringing him
down. He's now your problem. AndI I pretty much spent all my
weekends and summers fromthrough high school and through
college and for a year or soafter college working in the
(04:37):
museum in their exhibitsdepartment where I met a man
named Larry Izzard who was aterrific sculptor.
We became very, very closefriends up until his death in
2006 or so. And he sort ofhooked me on sculpture.
Katie Burke (04:52):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (04:53):
So that's the the short review.
Katie Burke (04:55):
Yeah. That's funny because, yeah, I always was very
I mean, obviously, I'm I lovemuseums. I'm a museum curator,
and I love to go my mom wouldtake us. We would we would when
I was a kid, I grew up in DU andwe would go to national
convention for our, like, familyvacation every year, and she
would have to entertain us whiledad was in, like, meetings. So
we would go to I got to go to somany museums as a kid, and I
(05:17):
always loved like, I just had anaffinity for them, just the idea
of collecting everything.
But it never occurred to me thatyou could work there until I was
older Yeah. Until, like,actually into college because I
I was an art major, and then Iwent into art history, and I
thought, oh, I don't I didn'twanna teach, and I didn't know
(05:39):
what else I could do with it,but I loved art history, and and
finally somebody was like, oh,you could work in a museum, and
I was like, that's a thing? Iwas like, so And then I started,
like, going to the university,like, museum and, you know, just
basically begged to hang outthere for free and let them and,
(06:00):
like, do whatever they would letme do, but you got to do it so
young. That's pretty special.Not many people get to start I
feel like most of us don't startkind of doing our I'm guessing
they didn't pay you because mostmuseums didn't pay much.
Walter Matia (06:17):
That would be a bad guess.
Katie Burke (06:18):
They paid you?
Walter Matia (06:21):
Well, you know, I started out down there in their
young scientists program, whichyou did not get paid. But by the
time I was 16, or 17, I don'tremember, we I was actually
doing real jobs in the summer. Imean, they were hard jobs.
Katie Burke (06:35):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (06:36):
I mean, you know, I didn't get paid much, but that
didn't matter. I mean, I've beendoing it for free, be honest
with you.
Katie Burke (06:41):
Yeah. Well, most of us do do it for free, Walter.
Walter Matia (06:45):
But this was a this was a different time. I'm a
lot older than you. Yeah. Ithink.
Katie Burke (06:52):
Yeah. You think you're the same age as my dad.
Yeah. And yeah. But I just yeah.
I was like, oh, I do it forfree, and then eventually, you
know, I I got I started to getpaid after some time. But, yeah,
you got to do it so young. Andso at in that time, I mean,
(07:12):
you're seeing art and you'reseeing, you know, like natural
history objects is what we callthem, but, you know, artifacts
and stuff. Are you interested inart at the same time? Are you
more interested into the biologyside of it, or is it kind of
equal?
Walter Matia (07:28):
So I did go to college. I went to a place
called Williams College ofMassachusetts, and I have a
degree in biology and a degreein art design. Right. And the
art history or the art designmajor at Williams College was
largely art history. Okay.
(07:50):
So I would say what I have is adegree in art history more than
art design. But, no, I wasalways interested in both. I
mean, in Cleveland, the theNatural History Museum and the
Art Museum are right across thestreet from
Katie Burke (08:01):
New really nice museums. Yeah.
Walter Matia (08:02):
And so, you know, there was just sort of a lot of,
you know, a lot of lunches werespent in the art museum. You
know, a lot of days were spentlooking at things. Some of the
most fun things that we got thatI got to do was they would send
me over there to to a curatorwould get a Dutch still life in.
(08:22):
Mhmm. And they wouldn't have anyidea what the animals were in
the still life.
And so they'd send me over thereand said, you know, go tell them
what that is. You know? Well,that's a bullfinch, and that's
this, and that's that, andthat's this. And these have
these symbolisms in differentEuropean art. And, you know,
that was just fun.
Katie Burke (08:44):
Yeah. That is fun.
Walter Matia (08:45):
So I got to use all of it was the point. It was
fun.
Katie Burke (08:48):
Okay. So and I'm guessing you were pretty
outdoorsy too as a kid. Right?Like, were outside and doing
more things.
Walter Matia (08:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, most kids were.
There were no cell phones.
Katie Burke (09:03):
Yeah. No. Yeah. But there were books. My sister this
I was pre cell phones as kids,and my sister read a lot of
books.
She didn't go outside that much,so there is another option.
Walter Matia (09:15):
I didn't I did not read a lot of books. In fact,
I'm not sure I read a book allthrough high school, but I but
the pictures were in English.And I had a huge collection of
field guides.
Katie Burke (09:29):
Yeah. Okay.
Walter Matia (09:32):
And so I spent hours and hours in the you know,
when it was dark looking throughfield guides and looking through
books of paintings of theanimals. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm
I'm I'm pretty literate. Youknow?
Katie Burke (09:44):
So you were actively trying to learn all
these animals, I'm guessing,since you're
Walter Matia (09:50):
Oh, yeah.
Katie Burke (09:50):
Looking at field guides. Yeah. Because that's
basically what you're you'redoing. I mean, for the most part
is learning the difference.
Walter Matia (09:58):
Well, I mean, I I don't know who said it, but but
but, basically, you know,knowing the name is the entry
point to just about everythingin natural history. Okay. And,
you know, and so I I did in factwant to know the name of
everything I was looking at.Yeah. And that include plants,
(10:19):
fossils, rocks, you know, just along to know, and I still do.
Katie Burke (10:25):
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Were you good at it, like,
remembering those names? Becausesome people my kid well, I have
one kid who can remember, like,everything, but then I have
other, like, me, One that's likeme that can't remember.
Walter Matia (10:41):
I would have said until about four years ago,
yeah, I remembered everything Iever saw. Yeah. Now it's getting
a little fuzzier.
Katie Burke (10:49):
Like, you made it a long time.
Walter Matia (10:53):
No. I mean, part probably probably learning the
names of things is a really goodway of slowing yourself down
enough when you're outside Mhmm.To really observe what you're
looking at. Mhmm. You know, wein plants, we historically used
to to use keys.
I mean, you know, kids now, youknow, it's not like a cranky old
(11:15):
guy, but, you know, kids pointtheir photo their their
telephone at a plant. They theysnap a picture, and iNature
tells them what they're lookingat.
Katie Burke (11:25):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (11:26):
Well, they remember that for about forty
three seconds, if that. Whenyou're told something, it
doesn't register the same way asif you actually looked it up,
figured it out. Yeah. And, youknow, I'm not saying it's better
or worse. I'm just saying thatthat my way of having to learn
(11:48):
things the way I did left mewith a much better memory for
what they actually were.
Katie Burke (11:55):
Right.
Walter Matia (11:56):
You know? And then, you know, so I I, you
know, I went on from museum workto work for twelve years for the
Nature Conservancy.
Katie Burke (12:05):
I was I'm getting there.
Walter Matia (12:07):
So, I mean, it it it chain I mean, it it it's been
a continuum, shall we say?
Katie Burke (12:12):
Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, I I find it like,
for me, I learn things with,like, when it comes to the
outdoors and stuff when when Iit's like with I'm with my dad
or something, and we talk aboutlike, it's like that interaction
with another person helps meremember it. Because Mhmm. My
husband always makes money.
He's not from I'm from themiddle of nowhere, and he's not
(12:34):
from down here. And he alwayswill, like, point to, like,
crops and stuff and ask me whatwhat it is, and he's always
like, how do you know? I'm like,I don't know. I just know. Like
and I'm sure it's because I justwas with I learn I just listened
to people talk about it over andover and over again Yeah.
Until it's just in there. Andbut, yeah, it it depends on I do
(12:56):
see that, and I see that with mykids too. Like and and it
depends on the kid. Like, my onekid, like Mhmm. Remembers
everything.
She's just if she's interestedin it, she knows about it. Like
Mhmm. And that means a lot. But,yeah, it's
Walter Matia (13:10):
Yeah.
Katie Burke (13:11):
It's interesting because growing up, I grew up
outdoorsy and also very intoart. I was always an artsy kid.
I loved to draw and paint andtook art lessons for many years,
but also, like, hunted andfished and all that stuff as a
kid. But, like, I never you kindof married you kinda kept them
(13:35):
together, whereas I I kind ofkept them separate. Like, they
were two different intereststhat didn't necessarily yeah, I
didn't overlap.
It was almost like two differentparts of myself, and you kind of
kept it all together, which isreally interesting, and you made
it work for you. I mean,obviously, you you went to the
you were at that museum whereyou got to do a lot of stuff and
(13:55):
you got to do taxidermy, is abig part I think for what you do
later, and I'd I'd like to hearmore about how that influenced
you as a sculptor. But Mhmm. Andthen you go to the nature
conservancy right after college.So What?
Yeah. You had, like, you kind ofalways they kind of always were
weaving back and forth, like, asthe same thing, which is really
(14:17):
is interesting. Probably thebetter way of doing it. But,
yeah, like, I always kept themvery separate until now.
Walter Matia (14:25):
Yeah. It's it's it's both. I mean, I still keep
them both. Mhmm. You know, I I II did go to work for an
organization called The NatureConservancy, and I worked there
for I think it was eleven ortwelve years.
(14:48):
I had five or six different jobswhile I was there, and and each
one of them was both differentand cumulative. I I started out
in sort of research onfreshwater mussels of the
Tennessee River drainage. Andthen I went from there, and I
(15:12):
was sent out to Washington Stateto run something called one of
their natural heritage programs,which was an endangered species
plant community and endangeredplant inventory.
Katie Burke (15:24):
Okay.
Walter Matia (15:25):
And I did that for a couple of years. And then I
came back to the headquarters inDC where I was assigned to their
stewardship department for theirland management division. Okay.
And I eventually ran that forfive or six years, which was the
(15:46):
greatest job in the world. Imean, I I got to travel all over
the country visiting the thethousand or so properties that
the Nature Conservancy owned atthe time.
But the important part of it wasthat I got to see the country
through the eyes of really,really good field biologists.
Yeah. You know? So you'd spendyou'd spend a half a day or so
(16:10):
in the office doing budgets andplans and, you know, fundraising
strategy. Yep.
And then you'd get out on theland for a couple of days. And
these people really knew stuff.So that that, you know, knowing
the name of something is cool.Yeah. Knowing why it's there is
(16:36):
really interesting.
Katie Burke (16:37):
And, yeah, why
Walter Matia (16:38):
Knowing how to knowing how to keep it there,
that's like the holy grail ofconservation.
Katie Burke (16:45):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (16:46):
And and so I I, you know, I got to see all
portions of it, and it wasterrific. I mean, it's a
wonderful wonderful job, youknow, so naturally I quit to do
something else.
Katie Burke (16:58):
Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah. But you're also at
that time, aren't you so you areso when do you switch into
sculpting? Because, like,through that because you're not
always as you don't start out.
I mean, you did you did did youdo more like printmaking and
etching and stuff in school? Didyou do you didn't do sculpting?
Walter Matia (17:18):
I was an yeah. I was I was an intaglio printmaker
in college, but Yeah. Butthat's, you know, that's sort of
immaterial. That that was it wasa I mean, it was a wonderful
well, I I guess, in fact, itwasn't quite as random as that.
Katie Burke (17:34):
I mean, you're still doing negative space.
Walter Matia (17:36):
I love I love process. Yeah. I mean, I love
the engineering of things, andintaglio printmaking sort of
scratched that itch.
Katie Burke (17:46):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (17:49):
And and, you know, certainly sculpture is, you
know, just sort of constantlytrying to figure out how the
hell to make something.
Katie Burke (17:59):
Yeah. And you're still dealing with, like,
working, you know, I like Idon't know if that's not the
right word, but you're workingbackwards almost. You know? It's
not like painting where you'rebuilding on top. You're working.
You're neg it's like negativework. Like so because you're not
yeah. What you're what you'reputting is not what you're
getting necessarily, likebecause, you know, yeah, you're
(18:21):
working in negative space to acertain degree.
Walter Matia (18:24):
Yeah. Which is helpful. Both ways. Yeah. You're
working Which both is a little alittle different than painting,
although, you know, goodpainting, good sculpture, they
have the same elements.
Katie Burke (18:35):
Yeah. So but that that does help you to go what
I'm saying is it helps you gointo sculpture. Like, you are
learning techniques and thingsthat will then transfer unless
Walter Matia (18:46):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the the the things
that I did at the museum wereobviously more applicable. Yep.
If only that, you know, some ofthe subsculpture actually is
simply understanding tools.
Yeah. And understandingadhesives and understanding
(19:09):
understanding bonding agents andunder you know, there's I mean,
you know, people every once inwhile, somebody will say, well,
do you ever teach classes? And Isay, well, I haven't for years.
And they said, well, would you?I said, well, truth be told, if
you actually gave me a day and ahalf, I could teach you how to
sculpt.
(19:30):
Right. Now whether you wouldactually work at it enough to
get any good at it, that's up toyou. But it's it's mostly the
the if you can just get by someof the rudimentary problems that
sort of stop people in theirtracks. Mhmm. You know, they
(19:50):
they're they're afraid ofcertain things.
You're like, well, you know,yes, they're hard. But if you
understand what they are, it itit reduces a lot of the the
mystery to it.
Katie Burke (20:00):
Yeah. And there's a high, like, failure. Like,
you're not when you fail asculpture, it's it's not like
failing in a painting. You can'tjust I mean, I guess watercolor
is that way in some ways. It'snot much you can do about what
that mistake.
But, yeah, you you kinda almosthave to it's it's hard to fix a
mistake. Right? Like, it's notyou kinda have to go back. The
Walter Matia (20:24):
the the hard part of sculpture, and, you know, I
don't wanna make this toodaunting. But Yeah. You when
you're learning to paint, you'remaking mistakes at about 3 and a
half dollars apiece.
Katie Burke (20:41):
Yep. Exactly. That's what yeah. It's so
Walter Matia (20:42):
you're when you're learning to sculpt, you're
making mistakes at 1,500 to$2,000 apiece. Yeah. And they're
just the simple truth is youhave to make almost the same
number of mistakes. Yeah. Youknow?
I mean, you gotta do 500paintings before you have any
idea what you're doing. Yep.Well, you don't have to do 500
(21:03):
sculptures, but you gotta do 50.Mhmm. You know?
And and you're at a $100,000 intraining. Yep. That is probably
the more daunting aspect ofsculpture for a younger person.
Katie Burke (21:18):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (21:18):
You know, you you just burn through money trying
to figure out how to do it, andthere's no there there are very
little there there's very fewways you can avoid avoid it. I
mean, you know, some people aresmarter than I am, but I'm sure
I blew through a $100,000.
Katie Burke (21:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, you have to make those mistakes.
That's just that's part of it.Like, that's all art. You have
to make mistakes to learn tolearn your process, to learn
what works.
Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. It'sjust yeah. It's a higher it's
higher stakes when it comes tosculpture.
Yeah. So I wanna go back beforewe get too far ahead. I wanna go
(22:00):
back to a little bit in themuseum with doing the the
taxidermy stuff because I don'tthink people really realize at
that time, you weren't, like,that y'all weren't buying molds
and stuff for taxidermy. Youwere making the molds. Correct?
Like, were doing that in inhouse.
Walter Matia (22:18):
I'd I'd love to romantically say that's what we
were doing, but in truth, thiswas museum taxidermy.
Katie Burke (22:25):
Oh, yeah. And it's different. It's not the same.
Walter Matia (22:27):
We we didn't we didn't actually melt that many
animals. I mean, mostly, we weredoing skeleton preparation and
study skins and things likethat. We Yep. We we really we
didn't need to add that manyactual mounts
Katie Burke (22:43):
No.
Walter Matia (22:43):
To the collections.
Katie Burke (22:44):
I'm guessing you're doing repairs and stuff too.
Like
Walter Matia (22:47):
Yeah. You were doing it was more of that, but
you you skinned out a lot ofanimals, and you learn you learn
the structure Mhmm. Of howthings were how things were
organized from the inside out.Yeah. And that understanding was
the most important part of myeducation for later sculpture
(23:11):
work.
Yeah. I really know how stuff'sbuilt.
Katie Burke (23:15):
Yeah. No. That that makes a lot of sense. So that
makes me it makes me laughbecause when I was a kid, I
really I was like a horse kid,and I really wanted to paint a
horse of like, that's all Iwanted to do. And my art teacher
was like, well, no.
You can't do it yet. You're notready. And I was young. I was
might be like, I think I waslike 12. And 12 or 13, I just
(23:37):
started doing oils, and she waslike, was like and I wanna do it
immediately, and she was like,no, no, no.
And she was like and I wasdetermined. I just like would
ask every week I'd show up andlike, okay, I wanna do a horse,
and she was like, no. Andfinally, was like, okay, you can
do a horse if you do the entireskeleton, and, like, she made me
do all this stuff to, like,prepare to do it and it took me
(24:00):
probably it took me a few monthsto get through all the little
anatomy things she made me drawand Uh-huh. And eventually, I
did it. I've when I got thereand I did a horse and it's I
still have it.
It's not terrible for the age Iwas, but I definitely understood
when I went to do it, like, shemade me go through all of that
(24:22):
work. Like, it it made adifference because I knew what
was underneath
Walter Matia (24:25):
the skin. You were lucky you were lucky to run into
a teacher like that. I mean, atone level, you know, I I truly
believe all kids are artisticuntil they're told they're not.
Katie Burke (24:35):
Yep. I
Walter Matia (24:36):
I think it's one of the saddest things in the
world. Yeah.
Katie Burke (24:39):
I agree.
Walter Matia (24:40):
If you had real desire and if you had some
skills, having a teacher thatwill make you slow down enough
to understand what you'reactually asking to do, That's a
rare thing because she obviouslycared about you.
Katie Burke (24:55):
Yeah. No. She's wonderful. I love her. It's like
I still I still talk to her tothis day.
Mhmm. But, yeah, I was yeah. Ishe made me go through, and I do
I understand what you mean.Like, you going through and
skinning all those you know,preparing all those skins and
stuff, you learned what'sunderneath, and so much of
movement is knowing the anatomyof an animal.
Walter Matia (25:19):
Well, certainly, I mean, it's not as in some ways,
it's not as critical with birdsbecause birds are a whole
different problem. Yep. Butcertainly, most mammals in
general is they're basicallyjust a series of planes Mhmm.
Where bones come to the surface.Yep.
And if you know where thoseplanes are going and if you know
(25:42):
where those bones are coming tothe surface, it's gonna look
right. Yeah. If you don't knowwhere those things are, it's
not. You know, it's really thatsimple. And it doesn't matter
whether you're sculpting orpainting or, you know, doing
printing or I mean, it justknowing those those specific
anatomical points isn'tnecessarily gonna make it
(26:06):
artistic.
Katie Burke (26:07):
No. But you'll get it right.
Walter Matia (26:08):
From being wrong.
Katie Burke (26:10):
Yeah. Yes. You won't look at and go something's
wrong with that, like, to havethat Yeah.
Walter Matia (26:16):
Well, you you undoubtedly will, but it it it
will be something else.
Katie Burke (26:20):
Yes. But the the random person won't look at it
and go, there that that, youknow, dog looks funny. I mean, I
can't quite figure out
Walter Matia (26:28):
why. Well, there's I mean, there are levels of the
game. I mean, the the insculpture, the the female the
female torso and the male torso,that's really hard. Yeah.
Because we all have one, and weall kind of know what it looks
like.
Yeah. Horses are the nexthardest thing just because the
(26:51):
the iconography of the horse isso embedded Mhmm. In all of our
history.
Katie Burke (26:56):
Yep.
Walter Matia (26:58):
The next after that are dogs because, you know,
we all got them, you know, andthey are they're very subtle.
Yep. The the hardest animal tosculpt, think, hardest mammal to
sculpt outside of a human is theis the cat.
Katie Burke (27:15):
Oh, really?
Walter Matia (27:16):
Yeah. It is. And and the problem with cats are
that they, in fact, have nobones.
Katie Burke (27:22):
I'll say it's because they have such loose
They're they're Yeah.
Walter Matia (27:25):
They're they're kinda like yogurt in a sack.
Katie Burke (27:27):
Yeah. So I was gonna say it's because they're
so loose skinned. Yeah.
Walter Matia (27:31):
They're so loose, and a dog can only do certain
things. A horse can only docertain things. A cow can only
do certain things. A cat, Imean, you can tie the damn thing
in a knot because of how it'show the axial processes in its
vertebrae are are organized.
Katie Burke (27:50):
Yep.
Walter Matia (27:52):
So they're really hard.
Katie Burke (27:53):
Yeah. I can see that. Yeah. Because they can
kinda do you know, that I canI've never I'm not a cat person,
so I never thought about it veryhard. But, yeah, I I can see
that now.
They say and then their skinkinda can hang loose on them
too. Right. Yeah. Which doesn'thelp either.
Walter Matia (28:10):
It's a they're they're complicated. But,
anyway, just just having havingdissected as it were, I don't
know, hundreds and hundreds ofanimals, there are very few
things that I probably couldn'tjust draw you out of my head.
(28:31):
Right. Mhmm. And and this isprobably jumping ahead, but but,
you know, in in all art forms,you know, we all go from
initially just wanting to get itright to wanting to both get it
(28:55):
right and identify what we wannasay about it.
And in that continuum is, youknow, the whole question of
intent. And you it's verydifficult to have intent in your
work if you're always lookingback and forth to what it what
what you're trying to figure outwhat it actually looks like. You
(29:18):
know? You you can you're onceyou've once you sort of know
that your hands and your headare working in in process with
each other, then you can reallydo some great things.
Katie Burke (29:33):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (29:34):
But but it's a it's a learning curve that you
cannot avoid. You know? You yougotta get it right to start, and
then you gotta let your headsort of organize what you're
really gonna do because justgetting it right isn't gonna get
you there.
Katie Burke (29:48):
It's like putting in your, as I say, your ten
thousand hours. And then Yeah.And then, you know, and then you
can go.
Walter Matia (29:56):
That that outliers was pretty interesting. So I
think people really concentrateon the wrong the wrong thing.
Yeah. You know? It's it's notthe ten thousand hours.
It's the fact that even if youput in the ten thousand hours,
if you didn't have the four orfive mentors in your life on the
way, you still were highlyunlikely to be successful.
Katie Burke (30:22):
Yeah. No. That's a good spot. Alright. Let's take a
quick break for commercial, andwe'll be right back.
I'm here with Walter Matia, andlet's just jump back in. So I
(30:43):
okay. That was a really goodpoint about the mentors, and I
I'd like you to go in. I knowyou mentioned a few of them
already. Could you kind of talkabout the mentors in your life
and their importance and justthe importance of mentors kinda
more in general and how they've,you know, helped you in your
career?
Walter Matia (31:06):
Well, I probably should have thought a little
about that, but I I can say thatI had three very specific no.
Four mentors in in at criticaltimes. One was the man I talked
about earlier, Larry Izzard, whowas the taxidermist preparer or
(31:29):
whatever Mhmm. For the NaturalHistory Museum in Cleveland. And
and and he, I mean, he basicallywas just a guide to my early
development of things that Ineeded to know.
Mhmm. You know? He was the guythat basically said, alright.
You you do need to know how toskin something out. You do need
to understand the musculature.
(31:50):
You do need to understandsomething about the chemicals to
keep yourself from killingyourself. You do need to
understand, you know, thingsabout different materials and
adhesives. And and so he he wasthat person. He also was the guy
that got me into bird hunting.So that's a whole other
different thing, which is butwhen I got to the nature
(32:14):
conservancy, the man who Ibasically worked for was a man
named doctor Robert Jenkins, whowas the head of science for the
Nature Conservancy.
And if you are lucky in yourlife, you will work for one
person who a, has a really goodidea worth working very hard for
(32:39):
and who was willing to throw youat problems that were always
just a little beyond what youthought you knew how to do.
Mhmm. And, you know, Bobbasically, you know, he sent me
down to Capitol Hill to work onlegislation, and then he sent me
(33:03):
to a television program in SaintLouis to be on stage with Marlon
Perkins and the head of theMissouri Botanic Gardens. And
then he sent me to California tonegotiate a contract with the
state of California. And then hethen he sent me to Washington
State, you know, to run ondangerous pieces inventory.
And, you know, that one I didn'tknow how to do any of this shit.
(33:28):
But and and some of it I didwell and some of it I did badly.
Mhmm. But he was constantlypushing me to try and do things
that I didn't know how to dobefore. And because I had such
tremendous respect for the man,you know, I I felt terrible when
(33:52):
I screwed up.
Katie Burke (33:53):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (33:54):
But he never he never dwelled on that. You know?
He just always dwelled on thenext thing. Yeah. That's an
amazing mentor.
Mhmm. And then as I got into thesculpting world, we talked
(34:15):
earlier about just the cost ofbecoming a sculptor. I did meet
two people who became mybusiness partners, and we formed
a corporation. They had they hadsome some wealth and so they
(34:37):
could basically absorb some ofthe losses of the corporation.
Mhmm.
But it was both their theirfinancial support, but it was
the the the mental support aswell. I mean, they they kept me
really focused on what I neededto get done. And then lastly, I
(35:03):
I met a guy just as I wasquitting the nature I think it
was about, I don't know, maybe ayear before I was actually
leaving the nature conservancy.A man named William Reese, who
was a fabulous painter andsculptor. He was from Washington
State, and he pretty much beatme up for about thirty years,
(35:34):
forcing me to not be satisfiedwith what I was doing, but also
sort of insisting that I try allkinds of things in my art
career.
He used to quote, I think it wasMichelangelo, who said something
effective, there is no artist sostupid he cannot be trained to
(35:55):
do one thing well. Beware, oh,painter.
Katie Burke (35:59):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (35:59):
And and Bill just, you know, insisted that I learn
how to paint. He insisted thatI, you know, thought more about
figures. He insisted that I, youknow, not not his main point was
once you were doing somethingwell, it was really time to move
(36:21):
on.
Katie Burke (36:22):
Mhmm.
Walter Matia (36:23):
Because allowing yourself to drop into a comfort
zone, was sort of the death ofyour creativity.
Katie Burke (36:34):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (36:35):
And the other thing about Bill was, and I
don't want this to sound toobad, but, you know, I was from
the East Coast, and I wasinterested in animals. And those
two factors could pretty quicklythrow you into a silo of artists
(36:59):
that were sort of, you know,sort of the winner of the duck
stamp was a big deal. Mhmm. AndBill was like, do you wanna win
the duck stamp? I go, no.
I got no interest in it. Hegoes, then let's let's try and
pick your heroes here.
Katie Burke (37:19):
Right.
Walter Matia (37:21):
And he and he introduced me to sort of the
Western art world. He introducedme to much of American art of
the nineteenth century andtwentieth century. He introduced
me to, you know, to to Russianpainters, Russian landscape
painters, Levitan, Russianportrait painters, Seraph and
(37:47):
Rappine. Mhmm. Bill justinsisted that sort of my
artistic yardsticks were reallywell calibrated.
Mhmm. And had I nabbed thatbill, I I my life would have
been very, very different. Yeah.Because I simply, you know, I
(38:07):
would have chased differentthings, and they would not have
been anywhere near satisfying tome.
Katie Burke (38:12):
Yeah. And I I that's one thing. And, like, I
noticed when I look at yourstuff, like, you have very I
mean, it's very years. Like,yeah, I can tell your sculpture,
like, immediately. It's it'svery yeah.
You have a very specific styleand, yeah, it's pretty uniquely
(38:32):
you. And when it comes to, likeand, you know, I talk to a lot
of artists and there's, youknow, there's nothing wrong with
going for the Doug Stamp, but itdoes seem to be it does kind of
take and I don't know if this isand I this might be more of a
criticism of the rules of theduck stamp. I get the reason to
(38:55):
go for the duck stamp. It itmakes a lot of these painters'
careers, but they've they've gotthe rules down to such a
specific thing. Like, it'salmost and I've talked to Adam
Grimm about it, and he'll tellyou that it's a it's it's a
science to win it.
Like, he knows, like, this isthis is how to win the duck
(39:18):
stamp.
Walter Matia (39:19):
Mhmm. And Or or this is how to not win the duck
stamp.
Katie Burke (39:24):
Yeah. And this oh, yeah. And this is how to not win
the ducks. I mean, he even picksthe species by what he thinks
the judges will pick. Yeah.
He yeah. And he and and I don'tknow. I'm not gonna talk about,
like, someone like him. Like, Idon't think, you know, he's a
very talented person, but Ithink when it comes to people
(39:45):
coming up in that field, itdefinitely has such a big
influence that it changes whatthey do as an artist. And I
think you to make a statement,it's pretty brave to say early
on that you're not gonna dothat.
You're gonna go about it adifferent way because it's not
(40:07):
necessarily gonna be a easierway. But I mean, could be.
Walter Matia (40:13):
It I I'm not gonna listen. I'm not I'm not gonna
presume that that I could everpaint well enough
Katie Burke (40:20):
To do that. Yeah.
Walter Matia (40:21):
Actually win the ducks stamp. I don't know if I
could.
Katie Burke (40:24):
Yeah. But definitely influences what they
become.
Walter Matia (40:27):
People that do it, And and and they're
extraordinary.
Katie Burke (40:30):
Yeah. They are.
Walter Matia (40:31):
Forget it. Love it. Let's they're extraordinary.
Katie Burke (40:33):
They are.
Walter Matia (40:34):
I just it I was simply I just wasn't interested
in it.
Katie Burke (40:40):
Yeah. I think my complaint with the duck stamp is
that I wish they would loosenthe rules. Like
Walter Matia (40:47):
Well, I don't I don't want them to change their
rules, to be honest with you.They come up with a really they
come up with a really goodstamp. Yeah. That's the job.
They're they're coming up with astamp.
And so I don't it was listen.There's plenty of other places
to exercise your artisticcreativity.
Katie Burke (41:04):
Yep.
Walter Matia (41:05):
This is their these were their rules.
Katie Burke (41:07):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (41:08):
Play by it. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't I don't
really wanna change their rules.I I judged the duck stamp a
number of years ago. It wasfascinating.
Katie Burke (41:17):
Yeah. I've I've been I wanna do it one day.
Walter Matia (41:20):
But it it's no. I mean, the the you know, I the
the the people whose work in thesporting art world that I
gravitated to were Frank BensonYeah. And Ogden Pleisner Yeah.
And John Cowan.
Katie Burke (41:37):
And Lasso. Did you like Lasso?
Walter Matia (41:39):
And Lasso Ripley and Richard Bishop. And those
were those were where Iinitially gravitated to because
I had access to a lot of theiroriginals in Cleveland.
Katie Burke (41:54):
I guess that's my thing is I miss those those I
sometimes I wish we could do aearly style. Like, I miss the
early style of the duck stampbecause I also gravitate towards
those as well. And Yeah. I miss
Walter Matia (42:08):
them a I you know, it's, again, don't don't don't
ask an apple to be an orange.
Katie Burke (42:13):
Yeah. It's true.
Walter Matia (42:14):
It's it's
Katie Burke (42:15):
You're right.
Walter Matia (42:16):
You're right. They got their thing. The the stamps
are beautiful.
Katie Burke (42:20):
They are.
Walter Matia (42:21):
The guys that know how to do it know how to do it,
and I don't think it's worthreally worrying about.
Katie Burke (42:26):
We just need more, etching people to etch more
often out there.
Walter Matia (42:32):
It's it's not gonna happen. I mean, I think,
who was the last person that dida well, what is it? Alderson
McGee did a scratch board. Ithink that was the last black
and white Yeah. Stamp.
Katie Burke (42:43):
It was. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (42:46):
No. You're right. I guess maybe you know, I it's
it's see, I yeah. So what?
Katie Burke (42:52):
Yeah. So
Walter Matia (42:53):
What's what's interesting to me about sort of
the sporting art world, and andit's it's it's both in sculpture
and in painting, I just don'tsee that huge an evolution from
(43:16):
Benson and Pleisner and Ripleyand Bishop. I I Yeah. I would
have thought that, you know,sort of fifty years sixty fifty
years on that we would be seeinga lot of very different
approaches to it. But I I havesort of this sense that the sort
(43:48):
of the catechism of the sportingart world is such that so many
places that people paint are onkind of this grand tour. Mhmm.
Whether it's, you know, saltflats in Texas or flooded timber
in Arkansas or yeah. You know,it's just the places that people
(44:14):
choose to talk about thesporting art world are fairly
limited in a funny way.
Katie Burke (44:22):
Yeah. Never thought about that.
Walter Matia (44:25):
And I don't I I don't know. And, you know, the
client base for people in thesporting art world are pretty
literal people.
Katie Burke (44:40):
Yeah. No. That's very true. Yeah. That's
extremely true.
And and it's I was just talkingto I I just interviewed Scott
Storm, and he was talking, youknow, a lot of and I actually
and like that he did thisbecause I don't think everyone
(45:01):
does this, but a lot of hiscommissions are for people to
come, you know, basically painttheir duck hole or where they,
yeah, where they hunt. And heactually, like, insists to go
there and be there and huntthere, which I I don't think I
(45:21):
don't know if that I don't knowif that's the the normal thing.
Pretty normal. Okay. That is?
Okay.
Walter Matia (45:27):
It's pretty it's pretty normal.
Katie Burke (45:28):
Yeah. Which I'm glad because I was like, having
to do it from images, don'tthink you would get it. But,
yeah, I was like, but he goes tothose places because that's I
mean and by speaking to that,people are literal. Like, I was
saying, you're they're gettingcommissions for literal places,
like, for physical places. Mhmm.
So Yeah. They're not they'rethat's you're getting because
(45:50):
that's what your client I mean,because it's you have to make a
living. Right? Like, this isit's a business ultimately. It's
what you do.
So
Walter Matia (45:58):
I mean, you you didn't win the the uterine
Katie Burke (46:00):
lottery? Exactly.
Walter Matia (46:02):
How silly of you.
Katie Burke (46:03):
So, yeah, like, you can't just do it for fun. So,
yeah, I mean Yeah. So that, Imean, market drives the art as
well, and it's interesting.
Walter Matia (46:16):
You can say that, you know, right up to the point
where you Mhmm. Sort of look atthe people who no longer needed
the money. Yeah. Bishop Benson,in particular. God, his his
Marchines don't look likeanybody else's Marchines, and
they're fabulous.
Yeah. And they have averisimilitude to them that no
(46:40):
photograph is gonna give youbecause he's not painting
something he even saw. Yeah.They're he's making it up.
Katie Burke (46:49):
He's making
Walter Matia (46:49):
it up. His winter scenes are cold as hell.
Katie Burke (46:52):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (46:53):
You know?
Katie Burke (46:53):
He's making
Walter Matia (46:54):
it They're they're full of mosquitoes in the fall.
They're I mean, you just getthis stance that he was there,
and he is doing the impressionof what was there. He was
representing what was there.Yeah. And and as a result, you
look at those things and they'remagic.
Katie Burke (47:15):
Do you think that happens more at the end of a
artist's career? Like, they havethat ability the freedom to do
more of that once they've No.
Walter Matia (47:27):
I mean, some people are some people just have
have more guts than others.
Katie Burke (47:31):
Mhmm.
Walter Matia (47:32):
And some people are in different financial
situations.
Katie Burke (47:35):
Yeah. That's yeah. That's why I was kinda leaning
Walter Matia (47:37):
You know? I mean, it's it's I mean, I I had a job
before I did this. You know, Isaved a little bit of money
before I quit to sculpt. I linedup some investors after I
decided this or before I decidedto to sculpt full time. Mhmm.
So I wasn't terrified every timeI went to an art show that I had
(48:00):
to sell something.
Katie Burke (48:00):
Right.
Walter Matia (48:02):
Well, I'll tell you that is a level of freedom
that a lot of my really dearfriends never had. Yeah. You
know? They had to sellsomething. They had, you know,
two kids and a spouse, you know,that were on the other end of
the phone kinda going, well,what happened?
Yeah. It's a it's a verydifferent level of of well, it's
(48:28):
harder. I'll leave it at that.
Katie Burke (48:30):
Yeah. No. It makes sense. It's interesting. Okay.
So I wanna go back a little bitbecause we kinda went off there,
which happens a lot in this inthese podcasts because I get
curious. So I wanna talk moreabout, like, we are we haven't
talked as much about your workspecifically now and, like, in
(48:53):
since you became, you know, afull time sculptress. But I
think the thing I like aboutyour sculpture, and I and I
don't know if this is true toyou, but I this is what I when I
see it, I always feel like youranimals it's like somebody else
(49:13):
is there. Like, there's doesthat make sense? Like, the way
they're reacting feels likethey're not alone.
Like, they have this which Ilike, like, they have this like,
it's almost like they'resomething is walking up on them
or they're they're reacting tosomething in, like, another
animal, but that's the thing Ialways notice about, like,
(49:36):
particularly your I love toturkey hunt and I love turkeys,
but your turkeys always give methat impression like, oh, no.
They're on to me.
Walter Matia (49:48):
That did. I don't wanna use that as
Katie Burke (49:50):
a title. Oh, no. They're on to me.
Walter Matia (49:53):
That's good. That's actually my name. If I
ever go to their turkey, I'mgonna use that, and I'll I'll
credit you.
Katie Burke (49:57):
Thanks. I appreciate it. So there's a
reason
Walter Matia (50:02):
for I mean, first off, thank you. You you get it.
You're you're absolutely right.And and part of this is the
contract that you make as asporting artist. You know,
something is either the hunteror the hunted.
Yeah. And both of them havegotta be in the storyline. Yeah.
(50:27):
So I am very attentive to thegestures of reaction.
Katie Burke (50:36):
Okay. Yeah. I could
Walter Matia (50:37):
see that. I'm very attentive to what I will call
the range of motion of somethingin that one of the I call it
sort of the seeing, knowingmatrix. You know, we're at a
(50:58):
point now with digitalphotography and videography and
whatever else that, frankly, youcan know everything.
Katie Burke (51:09):
Yeah. I
Walter Matia (51:10):
mean, there's absolutely no reason to get
something wrong.
Katie Burke (51:16):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (51:18):
But you're a hunter. You really can only see
what you can see Mhmm. Fromfifteen, twenty yards away. Yep.
And I try to make sure that mypieces don't really give you any
more information than you couldsee from 15 or so yards away.
(51:42):
I don't pick a flight gesturethat you can't actually sort of
see in your head. Mhmm. Youknow, there are if I've sculpted
hundreds of waterfowl pieces inmy life.
Katie Burke (52:00):
I love your teal.
Walter Matia (52:02):
His But I don't pick any gesture that isn't at
sort of that range of motion inthe wing flight Mhmm. That it
isn't sort of either at the endof a range of motion or just
starting into the next one.
Katie Burke (52:17):
Okay.
Walter Matia (52:17):
I don't do stuff that's halfway Mhmm. Because
it's going too fast for your eyeto really pick that up.
Katie Burke (52:24):
Right.
Walter Matia (52:25):
And it looks weird to
Katie Burke (52:27):
me. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (52:29):
And it kinda messes up it messes with the
silhouette. Mhmm. So, you know,I'm basically sculpting for what
I will call a hunter's distance.
Katie Burke (52:40):
Okay. That makes sense. I can see that too, like,
the way when you say that, and Iwish people need to go online
and look, but I think of, like,the way you do your teal, your
flying teal, it's definitelyvery much what you see when
they, like, buzz through likethat. Like, it's just
Walter Matia (53:02):
Mhmm.
Katie Burke (53:02):
They're all different. They're all flipped
different directions and they'reI mean, obviously, they you know
they're doing more than that,but you can't see. Like, it's
too fast.
Walter Matia (53:15):
I basically yeah. It's well, you can't you can't
see it. And so what you'reyou're basically trying to do is
you're trying to engineer speed.
Katie Burke (53:26):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (53:28):
And you're doing that by how you're organizing
the groupings of them, howyou're organizing the negative
spaces between them, and howyou're organizing just the
spacing sort of left to right.And I don't know. I think I I in
(53:49):
order to do those teal pieces, Ithink I modeled about 12
different teal and differentposes.
Katie Burke (53:54):
That's what I was gonna ask you. I'm guessing.
Walter Matia (53:56):
And when I when I build one of those pieces, I
will have 10 or 11 differentpieces on the floor to pick
from, and I may only use four of
Katie Burke (54:07):
them. Okay.
Walter Matia (54:08):
But I just keep I'll I'll put one up. I'll I'll
build the Marscene, or I'llbuild the structure of the
Marscene. I'll add a bird, thenI'll add another bird, then I'll
add another bird, and thenvariably, I'll cut one off and
put a different one therebecause it just doesn't have the
right whatever. Or I can't getthe eyes completely level based
(54:33):
on how I need to attach it tothe reeds. Mhmm.
Or clearly, looks like it'sengineered, at which point you
gotta start again because it hasto be engineered but not look
engineered. Mhmm. And you justkeep going, you know, you keep
(54:54):
going back and forth until youget an arrangement that radiates
either speed or confusion, or itjust depends what you're what
you're going for.
Katie Burke (55:06):
Going for. Mhmm.
Walter Matia (55:07):
I mean, know, it's what is your intent of the
piece? I mean, you do have tostart with that. You know, you
can't you can't noodle your wayinto that. If if you don't have
an idea in your head, it'll bevery obvious pretty quickly.
Katie Burke (55:22):
Yeah. So with that, do you when you're when you have
an idea like, I'm guessing sowhen you when you have an idea,
so do you sketch it out andthink of a pattern, like, on
paper and then go Really? No.You just kinda start No. Playing
around
Walter Matia (55:42):
and see how I mean
Katie Burke (55:44):
How does that
Walter Matia (55:45):
is a lot of a lot of times, it's because you're
doing it for a peer by person
Katie Burke (55:50):
Right.
Walter Matia (55:50):
And you're doing it for a space. So that defines
your scale and it defines someof your ideas. Other times,
you're just doing for one foryourself, and then the reality
of shipping and crating and allthe rest of the stuff comes in
that you kinda go, well, if Imake this thing 79 inches tall,
(56:11):
I can build the crate out of onepiece of plywood. If I build it
81 inches tall, I gotta use twopieces of I mean, you know and
and you start you know, you thethe business side of your head
sort of comes in. And then youkinda go, oh, screw it.
(56:31):
I'll buy more plywood. It reallyneeds to be 83 inches tall.
Katie Burke (56:35):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (56:35):
You know? Because I need to get that one bird that
much higher. And to get it thatmuch higher, I have to use a
reed that's that much heavier,that farther up to, you know,
for the support. And, you know,it just then it becomes this
engineering thing. How are yougonna do it?
So, again, it's gonna holdtogether, but it's not gonna
look like you're constantlysticking a stick up its butt,
(56:58):
which drives me crazy when Ilook at people's sculptures.
Yeah. It's like they knowthey've gotta support it, and
this is like, well, why? Whywould you do that?
Katie Burke (57:09):
Right. No. I I do notice that too. It's good thing
you like process.
Walter Matia (57:14):
Well, no. I do. I I love the process of it.
Katie Burke (57:19):
Yeah. It is yeah. It is you're solving a problem,
like, basically, constantly.Yeah. That's really interesting.
Yeah. No. I I do. I like that. Ialso noticed that, like because
you're right.
I mean, obviously, you're right.But when you say that, like,
it's what you can see, like,because, like, from a hunter's
(57:41):
point of view, because I thinkabout that again with your
turkeys and how one thing you dois you don't do every feather or
anything like that. It's notsoup it is detailed, but it's
not super detailed, but thedetail I like that people
probably don't notice is aturkey's feathers will sometimes
go different directions. Like,they don't necessarily let you
(58:01):
know, they like, the wind willblow them and it's such that
suggestion you have of that inyour turkeys is so like, it
makes it it's it's veryaccurate. Like, you could talk
about the mammals and they havethe planes and you have to get
that all right, but that littlebit of a detail in a turkey is
only a turkey hunter knows thatabout a turkey.
(58:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Like.
Walter Matia (58:23):
Well, the I mean, you know, some birds are more I
don't do a whole lot of reallysmall birds. I
Katie Burke (58:29):
mean, I've done some. You did a kingfisher not
long ago. I like the
Walter Matia (58:33):
No. Yeah. I had a friend that said that she wanted
a woodcock. And and then shesaid, well, actually, what I
want is three woodcock. And I'mlike, that's a little pushy.
But but they they've been goodfriends, and so I did them. But
that's about as small a bird asI've done in a long time. Yeah.
And and you can get away withsomething like a woodcock
(58:55):
because there there are They'refunny. Aspects of them that are
just so completely goofy.
Katie Burke (59:00):
Yes. They're goofy goofy. Cooper Then you can
Cooper, Rossner that works forJohn loves woodcocks, and I'm
like, they're the weirdest,ugliest, little goofy bird.
Walter Matia (59:10):
No. Ugly is not the right word. They're just
they're just so adapt adapted tosuch a weird thing.
Katie Burke (59:17):
That's who they are. They're very specific.
Walter Matia (59:18):
And so they've got they got they got a great
character. But let's say we'regoing back to turkeys. You know?
I mean, I don't live out west.If if if I lived in Colorado, I
might have been I might havebeen lured into doing big game.
Yeah. But I got nothing to sayabout elk and moose and bears
and Say Oh my.
Katie Burke (59:38):
I grew up in Mississippi. Yeah. We don't do
that.
Walter Matia (59:41):
I I know nothing about them. You know? And and I
have nothing to say about them.
Katie Burke (59:46):
Right.
Walter Matia (59:47):
But turkeys are kinda eastern big game. Yeah.
You know? I see them all thetime, And they are you can
because they're large andbecause their feathers are in so
many different shapes andplanes, you can treat them like
muscle groups. Mhmm.
(01:00:08):
And and you really can you cando a lot of stuff with them.
Yeah. You know? And I thinkthat's what you're reacting to
is all the subtle planal shiftswhich throw light back at you
Yep. In so many different ways.
Katie Burke (01:00:28):
They do that in real life.
Walter Matia (01:00:29):
Fun to sculpt.
Katie Burke (01:00:30):
Yeah. And they do that in real life. Like, you can
the Yeah. They shine and stuffand oh, yeah. Mhmm.
Yeah. No. I also yeah. No. Youdo you're right.
Like and I think about that,like, with your herons and stuff
too. It's like, yeah, we don'thave big game. Like, that's
true. And I guess that's No.Maybe I never thought about that
being from where I'm from andwhere I hunt, but these are the
(01:00:53):
big animals we do have, even thelike, our birds mostly.
Yeah. Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:00:58):
Mean, I I mean, I like deer that eat, I guess.
Katie Burke (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:01:01):
They're they're so annoying otherwise that I serve
her.
Katie Burke (01:01:05):
We we're hunting them now because
Walter Matia (01:01:06):
We're down to about we're down to about four
plants in my garden that theywon't eat. Yes. We've got a herd
of got a herd of about 25 ofthem that are regularly tromping
through eating everything.
Katie Burke (01:01:18):
Oh, yeah.
Walter Matia (01:01:20):
I got I got one I got one guy that hunts the
place. Yeah. And we right nowhave a 12 and a 10. Oh, nice.
Using the yard.
Yeah. And and he just he'ssalivating. And and I have this
we have this we have this deal.I said, you can you can hunt
anything you want as much as youwant, but you have to shoot at
(01:01:42):
least three does. Yeah.
Before you don't you don't haveto do it before you shoot the
buck if you have a chance, butyou gotta shoot at least three
does to maintain the troublethat you're shooting on the
property.
Katie Burke (01:01:54):
No. That's not bad. We luckily have a lot of
grandkids now, and they are nowinto deer hunting. So they yeah.
Deer hunting's pretty it's easy,so they like doing it.
They, you know Mhmm. They're atthat stage as a hunter where
they just wanna shoot stuff.
Walter Matia (01:02:10):
So They wanna shoot stuff. Yeah. I get it.
Katie Burke (01:02:12):
Yeah. Yeah. We all went through it.
Walter Matia (01:02:14):
We all went through it. That's right. Did we
ever?
Katie Burke (01:02:17):
So they're at that stage. So they they help the
they help our maintain our deerpopulation.
Walter Matia (01:02:23):
Yeah.
Katie Burke (01:02:24):
Well, Walter, this has been super fun, but I've had
you for over an hour now. SoWow. Is there anything I know it
goes by fast, doesn't it? Isthere anything that we haven't
talked about that you'd like to,like, mention before we go?
Walter Matia (01:02:42):
No. We we have to we have to hang up before I
remember that.
Katie Burke (01:02:45):
I know. That's that's usually the way that
goes. Well, this has been superfun. You'll have to come back.
Walter Matia (01:02:51):
Alright. Next time, I promise to have an audio
visual capability. How aboutthat?
Katie Burke (01:02:59):
Yes. We'll do it. You know what we need to do is
when I'm in Easton, I need to,like, come out after the
festival, like, and comes visityou in your and do this in your,
like, in your shop, in yourstudio.
Walter Matia (01:03:13):
That'd be fine. Yeah.
Katie Burke (01:03:14):
That would be really fun. Yeah.
Walter Matia (01:03:16):
Now, I'm not gonna go to Easton this year.
Katie Burke (01:03:18):
You're not going to Easton?
Walter Matia (01:03:20):
I just I have the entire month of September, I'm
traveling, entire month ofOctober.
Katie Burke (01:03:28):
Oh, yeah.
Walter Matia (01:03:29):
I've got things I'm supposed to be doing, and I
just Yeah. I can't face it. Ican't face another six days of
setting the stuff up and takingit down.
Katie Burke (01:03:41):
Yeah. And your stuff isn't easy to set up and
take down.
Walter Matia (01:03:44):
No. It's not. They aren't miniatures. You know?
They're just too old for thisstuff.
Katie Burke (01:03:50):
Yeah. No.
Walter Matia (01:03:51):
Well, I'll Actually, I have to go down to I
gotta go down to Thomasville,Georgia the weekend aft the week
after. Yeah. And I've been goingdown there hunting and fishing
now for fifty something years,and there it's one of the it's
they're sort of theiranniversary show, their fortieth
or something, and I said I'd godown and I'd give a talk. And
Katie Burke (01:04:11):
Okay.
Walter Matia (01:04:12):
So I gotta go.
Katie Burke (01:04:13):
Yeah. No. That'll be great. But I'll I mean, I go
to Eastern every year, so wewill make it happen eventually.
Walter Matia (01:04:18):
Alright. Very good.
Katie Burke (01:04:20):
Well, thank you for doing this, Walter. I really
appreciate it.
Thanks to our producers, Chrisand Rachel, and thanks to you,
our listener, for supportingwetlands and waterfowl
conservation.
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