Ep. 714 - Roots of Restoration: Private Landowners Powering the Flyway Forests - Ducks Unlimited Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Mike Bartlett (01:41):
Can we do a mic check, please? Everybody,
welcome back to the DucksUnlimited podcast. I'm your
host, doctor Mike Brasher. I'myour host, Katie Burke. I'm your
host, doctor Jared Hemphith.
And I'm your host, MattHarrison.

VO (01:59):
Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, the only
podcast about all thingswaterfowl. From hunting insights
to science based discussionsabout ducks, geese, and issues
affecting waterfowl and wetlandsconservation in North America.
The DU podcast, sponsored byPurina Pro Plan, the official
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(02:20):
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Whether you're winding down withyour best friend or celebrating
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to every moment. Enjoyresponsibly.

Jerad Henson (02:47):
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Ducks Unlimited
podcast. I'm doctor JaredHenson. I'm gonna be your host
today. We got a cool episode.
I think this one's gonna beinformative and a lot of fun
talking about something a littledifferent. We're gonna be going
into some new programs that DU'sbeen working on. It's actually
not terribly new. We've beenrolling with it for several
years on a pilot program. It'sDucks Unlimited Flyway Forest.

(03:10):
And to help me go through this,I've got some special guests
today. I've got MaddieMcFarland, who is a DU biologist
from our Southern Region office.Maddie, thank you for being
here.

Madie McFarland (03:19):
Thank you for having me.

And we've got one of our landowners that signed up
for this early part of theprogram, mister Mike Bartlett.
So, mister Bartlett, thank youso much for joining us.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm honored.

We're well, we're we're honored to be here and
really happy to talk to youabout what we've got going
today. For our listeners, one ofthe things we really wanna do is
I would love to have Maddiekinda give a quick introduction
because she's been on thepodcast before, but it was a
long time ago. She's movedthrough a lot of DU positions
since then. And so can you givea quick background on yourself,

(03:51):
Maddie, to what you do at DU andhow you came to Ducks Unlimited?

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Maddie McFarlane. I am the
regional biologist forMississippi and Alabama out of
our southern regional office. Ihave been with DU, a little over
three years now, and I amprimarily responsible for
delivering our conservationprograms in those two states,
Flyway Forest being one of thoseresponsibilities.

(04:16):
And I got involved with DU earlyon as a volunteer. I was
involved with my collegiatechapter at LSU, the Tiger
chapter, and then at MississippiState University where I got my
master's degree. Yep. Go Dawgs.And I was involved with the
Bulldog chapter there.
You know? So early on from avolunteer standpoint, you know,

(04:38):
I I had a very surface levelview of Ducks Unlimited. You
know? I came into thisorganization thinking all we did
was raise money for the Ducks,have fun dinners, and raffle off
some cool gear.

That's pretty common.

Yeah. Yeah.

I've I've been to those. They're nice.

I know. It's a great way to be a part of DU,
but it really wasn't until Ilearned about DU's conservation
internships that I got involvedwith the organization from a
professional standpoint. Soafter I finished up my undergrad
degree at LSU, an opportunitycrossed my desk to be a
conservation intern for DucksUnlimited Ducks Unlimited,

(05:20):
excuse me, in our Great LakesAtlantic region, and I jumped on
that opportunity and wasfortunate enough to get it. I
spent a year deliveringconservation programs across
that 21 state region, meetingbiologists, development staff,
all the different folks at DUthat, you know, make our mission
run over the course of a year,and that was such a not to be

(05:45):
cheesy, but a life changingopportunity for me. I left that
internship knowing that I wantedto come back and hopefully
eventually retire from DucksUnlimited.
So I went back to school to getmy master's degree at
Mississippi State University,like I said, and then an
opportunity opened up to, gowork for Ducks Unlimited in
Illinois and Indiana as part ofour Big Rivers Initiative.

(06:09):
Again, I jumped at thatopportunity and was fortunate
enough to get it. I spent abouttwo years in Illinois before my
heart was just calling me backsouth, back home, and was
fortunate enough to transferdown to our southern region and
now deliver conservation in myneck of the woods.

And that's where you did your bachelors work too.
Yes. In the Southern region.

Yes. Yeah. In Southern Louisiana on a marsh
terracing, which I believe we'vedone a couple podcast episodes
on.

Some of that stuff. Yeah. We're so glad
you're here. Thank you. So gladwe've got you on this episode
today.
Mister Mike, can you give uskind of a quick background on
just what you've been doing herein your farm?

Well, I've I've been a real crop farmer all my
life, basically, working lifeother than brief interlude in
the army. And then, we also hadcattle and basically had cattle
just to give our labor somethingto do in the wintertime. I never
felt I made much money out ofit. But now, of course, cattle

(07:09):
are the only thing that doingwell. But I always loved, you
know, the outdoors and huntingand and fishing and and always
loved forests, trees.
Took a forestry course when Iwas at Mississippi State. But I

(07:29):
heard about this program from afriend of mine, Jake McFadden,
who's a big, Ducks Unlimitedguy. And he was eating lunch one
day with us over at my son'sretail shop. You know? He's in
the meat business.
And he told us about thisprogram. And so I contacted Nick

(07:51):
Smith, and he came up and had alook, and I said, I like it. And
I signed up just about as muchland as I could Yeah. West of
here. I'll save one pasturebecause my son, you know, but I
had some land in CRP, but it hadonly been signed up for one

(08:12):
year, so I paid the governmentback for that.
Wasn't much. And then I took theCRP land and some hay ground I
had and one big pasture, andthen the rest was cropland.
Yeah. Signed up almost 700acres. Yeah.

Right. It was a lot. We've I walked a bunch of
it. Almost all of it. And beforewe jump into too much more of
that so that our listeners canfollow along, Maddie, do you
mind giving, like, a quickrundown just the 30,000 foot
view of what the Flyway Forestprogram is?

Because

it's a little different from our traditional

It is. It's little bit different from what,
you know, we're known for. ButFlyway Forest, in a nutshell, is
an afforestation andreforestation program that is
designed to restore large swathsof bottomland hardwood forest,
particularly in the MississippiAlluvial Valley. It is a program
that is geared towards privatelands and private landowners, to

(09:07):
support their restoration,stewardship, and management
goals and objectives of theirproperty. And Ducks Unlimited is
doing this in partnership withLand and Water to restore what
was 3,000 acres in our pilotprogram, and I'm excited to
share that we have exceeded thatgoal by about 400 plus acres in

(09:28):
the MAV across Tennessee,Arkansas, Mississippi, and
Louisiana, which are alleligible areas for the program.
And these are long termpartnerships that we are
entering with privatelandowners, to steward these
forests for at least fortyyears, across the, carbon
crediting cycle. And I shouldback up and say, because this is
a pretty important component ofthe program

(09:49):
You just that you've done a little bit.

You did. Yeah. Yeah.

That, the program, is primarily designed
for carbon sequestration to helpus meet our ecosystem goods and
services needs. But given thatwe are Ducks Unlimited, the
program is also designed tobenefit natural resources and,
benefit wildlife as well whilesupporting outdoor recreation.
So all that to say that theseare partnerships that we are

(10:16):
entering with private landownersto steward these forests for, at
a minimum forty years. Butlandowners can opt to enter into
a permanent conservationeasement with Ducks Unlimited so
we can continue to protect theconservation value of their
property even after those fortyyears are up. Or landowners have
the option to enter into a fortyyear term contract with Ducks
Unlimited to maintain theseforests as intact stands during

(10:40):
that crediting cycle.
And landowners are paid a fixedrate, per acre, for the areas
that we reforest. And thepayment rates differ a little
bit depending on if you're goingfor a conservation easement or a
term contract and what your landuse might be like. But all in
all, it is a long term,partnership to restore
bottomland hardwoods in theMississippi Alluvial Valley on

(11:03):
private lands, to steward, thesestands for carbon sequestration,
but also to benefit wildlife.And And for Ducks Unlimited, we
hope that's waterfowl.

Yeah. That's our hope. And I and I wanna mention
one thing that's really coolabout this program that's a
little different from some ofthe other carbon programs is
that we're offering that upfrontpayment. Right? We're derisking
the carbon market to thelandowner.
DU and our our partner, Land andWater, they're the we're we're
the ones assuming that risk.Right? So that's that's one of
the the caveats I definitelywanted to mention. Right? It's

(11:35):
we're trying to give landownersan option, a voluntary option to
do conservation and get paid todo it.

Yeah.

Right? That's the right. Yeah. Exactly. We can't
expect landowners to do thingsfor free.
That's not fair.

That's right. That's a good point to make,
Jared. Ducks Unlimited and ourpartners, Land and Water, we pay
for every bit of the program.Like Jared said, we offer
landowners an upfront paymentfor the reforested areas. We
also pay for all of the siteprep act the planting, as well
as the long term monitoring aswell.

(12:07):
So really a a prettystraightforward way for
landowners to get into thecarbon world if that's something
that they're interested inwithout having to deal with all
of the headache that could comewith it.

Yeah. Well, the carbon sequest ration will
benefit that's not gonna kick infor a number of years. Right.

Right. Right.

But it'll be significant once it starts. I'm
sure. It is. Yeah.

Yeah. It actually doesn't take as long as you
would think. Once you startletting mother nature go back,
you've seen some of thempastures. They're growing up
thick. They're in pasture otherthan those row crop fields
there.

The row the row crop's more than the pasture.

That's what mean, but it's got

The weed growth is worse than in the Yeah. Row
crop fields, but the

But all that sequestering carbon and putting
to

to the chaperies. What shocked me, y'all coulda
almost got no trees planted forfree because the number of
volunteer trees that are comingup. I can't believe it. Now they
may not be as desirable as thespecies as you as you

want,

but I see a lot of sycamores. Yeah. I got
nothing against a sycamore, but

That's a early successional tree, and they're
gonna jump in there. But one ofthe reasons we do plan is to try
and give those oaks, hickories

A chance.

A chance. Right?

Yep. And they're they're not very shade tolerant
species either, are they? Oaksand hickories?

The saplings can can fight, but it's a slow game.

Yeah.

Right? It's a much slower growing. And over time,
they'll end up being a dominantspecies if you can get them
established.

Yeah. And then I noticed on the program you did
for me, you planted a number ofsweet gums.

Sweet gums, yep, were in the, planting list.
I

I don't know why. Because they're all If I didn't
cut this grass, I'd havesweetgums all that.

Right. Right.

Yeah. I believe they grow on the other side of
the moon. I mean

They are. They're some of the first to
volunteer. But you're makingsome really excellent, points,
mister Bartlett, because you'reright. We could just let the
field go fallow and let naturalsuccession take over and over
time end up with, a very similaroutcome as if, we were actively
planting.

But It would take longer.

It would take longer. But because this program
is, not just for carbonsequestration but also to
benefit wildlife, and naturalresources, we wanna be
intentional about what we'reputting out there. And so we do
design our planting list to betailored towards the site

(14:34):
itself, the ecoregion. We takeinto account the soils, the
hydrology for the area, andwe'll take into account what
species are occurring inexisting stands that surround
the property. But even so, westill have to balance that with
the carbon side of things.
So you mentioned the sweet gum,which is a great example. So

They grow fast.

They grow fast. They

biomass is what we're going

for.

Exactly. So we try for about a sixty forty
split between hard and softmass. And, you know, we really
want on both ends those speciesto provide some type of benefit
to wildlife, oaks for acorns, uppecans, hickories, persimmon,
and maple. But we also throw inthe sweet gums from time to

(15:18):
time, trees like that that weknow are going to be faster
growing to help us meet ourcarbon sequestration goals.

I don't believe you planted any hickories on me.

No. Not and I don't believe on this site we
did. But, you know, each site isa bit different. So some sites
we might have hickory, somesites we might not. But, yeah,
you're right.
I don't think we put anyhickories on yours.

It's 13 different species, I think, that did go
in.

Anywhere from 10 to 13.

I got a list of them on my own. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, yeah, it's it's an oak heavy

Mhmm. Mix. It's an oak heavy.

It does mimic some of the WRE mixes. Correct?
Right. And so which is whichthat mix is designed to support
wildlife, and that's a big partof that. That's why we we went
with that.
Plus, we're going for all thosebroad wildlife benefits. And if
we just went in, like, forcarbon, it'd probably be best if
we just stuck cottonwoods in theground. Right? Because they're

(16:11):
gonna grow fast. Yeah.
Well, that that doesn't have alot of wildlife benefit. Right?
We're looking we're looking fora long term game and and those
multiple benefits, and I thinkthat's highlighting why we went
down that road and tried toestablish that variety of tree
species early on. MisterBartlett, you mentioned this
farm. You've been farming.

(16:32):
It's it's a 700 acre farmroughly?

No. It's about 1,800 acres.

Acres. Okay. How long have y'all had that?

My great grandfather bought it about
1868, '60 '70, somewhere along

in there. Okay. Wow.

Yeah. He was a surgeon in the civil war. Yeah.
He he was captured and sent toIllinois into a prison camp.
Mhmm.
Mountain City, I think it wasand they employed him as a
doctor there. He escaped, butthey captured him again.

Oh, wow.

And he went right back to

Such bad luck. And

then when of course, he he wasn't repatriated
until the war ended. But he mywife did a sort of a study of
him. He did something which Ifound amusing. He petitioned the
Confederate government, Isuppose, to for back pay. He
said, was captured, but I wasstill in the army.

(17:34):
You didn't pay me. But theyprobably paid him in Confederate
money, which did him no goodanyway. But anyway, he he was
from, near Holly Springs, RedTonic, and he traveled through
here. Mhmm. And, I think he meta girl.
That's the reason

you might upset me here.

But anyway, he he's he he acquired part of this
land. He and about he bought allthe place in about maybe two or
three purchases. The last ofwhich was about 1890 or
something like that. Most of wayyour trees are, you know, the
west end of the place, it's hebought later.

Really? Mhmm. That's awesome. I mean, that's
that's a lot of history on thispiece of ground and

Yeah. Well, then that we bought some land to to
the southeast of here, threetwenty, three and twenty acres
which that was in the latesixties. But then he had other
land, but I have I have asister, a sibling. And so when

(18:43):
we I wanted this place. Youknow?
So when before she died, wesplit up, and she got a lot of
the other land, and I got this.Mhmm. And she wasn't interested
in farming, so she didn't care.Yeah. So anyway but I wanted to
ask a question about the ducks.
Do you think any of this willbenefit waterfowl?

I think that flyaway forest can provide
direct benefits to waterfowl,especially if we are reforesting
areas around existing wetlands.We are reforesting areas in the
lower elevations of, the MAVwhere we know there's
intermittent flooding,particularly in the spring and
summer. But folks who arefamiliar with Bottomland

(19:24):
Hardwoods and the MississippiAlluvial Valley know that there
is an elevation gradient withinthat ecoregion. And so some some
of the sites that we enroll inthe program on the on the higher
end of the elevation, thesemight not be as, quote, unquote,
ducky as some of our otherprojects.

I wouldn't think so.

But

Fantastic wood duck habitat. Yeah. Like,
there's the creek streams. Yes.There's the hardwood saw some
wood ducks in the past.
Mhmm.

But I pointed out I don't know if I told you guys,
but I on most of those bottoms,I had irrigation. Yes. And I got
pipes coming out of thesereservoirs. And, you know, forty
years down the road or thirtyyears down the if you guys want
to flood them, you could.

Mhmm. Mhmm.
And it's something that we have to
balance, with this being acarbon program. It it's
different from what DucksUnlimited is known for from what
we traditionally do. There arecertainly restrictions
associated with the carbonmarket and the carbon registry,
and one of those things is thatthe registry does not allow

(20:26):
intentional flooding of thereforested areas. So

During the life of the carbon.

During the life of the carbon.

Which is forty years.

Yes. Thank you for clarifying.

Just to clarify that.

Yes. So I was I'm a past member of American Fire
Association, and they did anarticle that I remember reading
some years ago where, theystudied flooded timber. This
only flooded in the winter, ofcourse. Yes. And they said it it
it enhanced the growth of thetrees.

(20:56):
It didn't it didn't hurt them.

Yeah. Yeah. And we we with with the carbon
registry restricting,intentional flooding, we, of
course, understand that, thereare things outside of our
control, like seasonalintermittent flooding. Those
things are totally allowablebecause who who can control
that? And we hope that when thatflooding is occurring, it's

(21:19):
occurring either in the winteror in the spring, these natural
seasonal inundations thatbottomland hardwoods are
characteristic of.
What what we need to look outfor is prolonged water sitting
on those trees during thegrowing season.

Oh, no. He don't

see that. And that and that's really why the
carbon registry restrictsintentional artificial flooding.
And that's why we have to workextra hard to design our
restoration activities and oursite selection so that we can
try to make this program aswetland and duck friendly as we
possibly can while alsobalancing the restrictions of

(21:57):
the carbon registry. So, yeah,there's something else that you
had mentioned, mister Bartlett,
that I
wanted to follow-up on, and I'm losing
I've lost my train of thought,to be honest.

You're not you're not old enough. I do that all
the

time. Well,

you mentioned you've had this for I mean, you
said eighteen nineties was kindathe last acquisition of that
larger branch. But you've beenit's row crop. There's forest.
There's grazing. There's littlebit of everything.

A lot of it was patchy Mhmm. Smaller fields. My
father, when he came back herein thirties Yeah. My mother's
family was the one that ownsthis land. He he started
clearing up some of these creekbottoms, and then I continued
that, bought a bulldozer, tookout then made big big fields out
of the little fields.

(22:49):
And, now put it all back intotrees again. And and I've gotten
a lot of ribbon from the locals,you know, about my my ancestors
are gonna curse me.

Well well, your ancestors knowing the the row
crop markets right now areprobably going that may not been
a bad decision.

So Not not too bad an idea. Right?

Well, and speaking of that, in the row crop side,
what what were you growing? Whatwas your primary

crop? Primarily cotton and corn.

Cotton and corn.

Some beans, but not I wasn't crazy about
soybeans.

Right.

And then in the past, we grew some grains over
mallow maize. Mhmm. And thenwheat. Right. But the the really
good creek bottom land, it wasprimarily just cotton and corn.

Cotton corn.

And you

mentioned that you've been in the the gin
industry Yeah. For the gin

for while as before. Well. Running the gin,
basically. I believe I was bornin the gin.

Yeah. So those are the markets. Those are the crops
that you had here, and andyou've put most do you have any
row crop left?

I've got about on this on the east side of this
road here, Homeplace Road, we'vegot about a 136 acres left of of
row crop.

Okay.

It used it originally had about 650

Right.

Total, you know, bottomland Mhmm. Real crops. And
then but two of the about a 100acres of that of the row crop on
east of here, I gave that to myson for pasture. Gotcha. You
know, for for his meat business.
Right. Graze his cattle on it.But and then he has some hogs on

(24:25):
it too. But he he has pasturedpork. He doesn't Right.
He doesn't confine them.

Oh, yeah. I've I've I've partaken. Yeah. I got
a pork butt from him in one ofmy first first site visits after
we came up here. Yeah.
I will say it was probably thebest piece of pork I've ever
cooked. And I'm you know, I livein Memphis. Pork is king. Like
like, it was a really good pieceof pork. Yeah.
Like a 13 pound pork butt.

They're they're really pasture raised too
because often. At least once amonth, sometimes we're often we
got yards full of pigs here. I

saw them outside the the store. Yeah. Just a
minute ago.

They they just wander around everywhere.
They're fairly easy to get up.And my wife gets after them with
a broom when they

But I I think that your your land and your
involvement with the program andthis partnership that we have
with your family is a reallygreat example of how you can
enroll into conservationprograms and still be able to
have alternative uses on thatproperty, still be able to farm,

(25:34):
produce livestock. These thingscan occur together and sometimes
in harmony. So I think I thinkyour property is a really neat
example of that.

Oh, I'm we we feel that way too. We're real
happy with it.

Good. I'm glad to hear that.

Well, and you mentioned I was gonna say, you
mentioned that you heard aboutus from word-of-mouth from
mister Jake McFadden

Yeah. He told me about it.

Who we did some some work on his ground as well.
What was it that was the mostattractive thing for our
program? What was it that caughtyou?

I caught

your eye.

As I said to you earlier, maybe we didn't record
this. I have I'm a traditionaltree hugger, so I like the idea.
And I've I've planted a lot oftrees. You see these cypresses
out here? Mhmm.
I planted all of those, and Iplanted a lot of poplar, tulip
poplar and some oak, mostlycherry bark.

Yeah.

It was about a little 15 acre field right to
the south of here that Iplanted. Mhmm. All in hardwood
And it was just a irregularlyshaped field. It was difficult
to farm. And I had it in hay andthen I said, I got plenty of hay
ground.
So I just it was close to thehouse so I wanted it in woods.
And I think that's very thick.You know? I'm sure this will be

(26:45):
that way too. Does it eventuallyset itself thin?

Or It will. It'll shade. Yep. It'll it'll self
thin through the shading thatclose can

process. Yeah. And it's always I mean, there's
no weed growth on the ground oranything like it. It's it's like
a forest. Forest.
Right. But I'm sure this otherwill be the same. But how long
does it take to get those treesup to get some shade?

It depends upon the plant planting and spacing
and I was gonna say. Trees startwith, but, Maddie, you'd
probably be more

It also depends on the species. But, you know,
most I believe that around yeartwenty is when most
prescriptions may startsuggesting, you know, going in
there and doing some smallthinning. But then really it's
at the thirty to forty year markwhere most folks are doing their

(27:37):
precommercial thinning. But interms of, you know, getting to
that height to where they startshading other species out or
shading themselves out, likeJared's saying, it's so
dependent on the species, soilconditions, hydrology, things
like that.

And weather. You know?

Yeah. And weather.

The weather.

Oaks tend to be a little bit slower growing.
Like we were saying earlier, youknow, those cottonwoods, the
sweet gums, they can jump upfast.

Well, I was surprised the sycamores are so
prevalent out there.

We noticed when we came in April to do the first
survival monitoring, we noticedfew sycamores in the creek beds,
and so we have to assume that'sprobably

Oh, sure.

You know, where they're coming from. But, yeah,
sycamores, cottonwood,sweetgums, oh, they're so
prolific.

Any cottonwoods on this? No. I don't see many
cottonwoods on this.

No. We we see them in other areas, but, yeah,
you mostly had. In terms ofvolunteer species, there were
sycamores. There were sweetgumsand some elm too.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And some elm.

Few elms, but not not many. Yeah. Predominantly
oak. Yes. Predominantly.
These natural woods that we haveare are mostly oak. Mhmm.

Yes.

Mostly red oak.

Yes,

the red oak family. Not as many white oaks,
unfortunately. That's the onethat's my favorite. But anyway.

And that's the type of information, you know,
we consider when we're puttingtogether the species list. You
know, we do have a somewhatstandard, if you will, you know,

(30:41):
list of species that are prettycommon in our mixes, but we do
try to tailor it from site tosite, you know, what makes sense
for this ego region and whatmakes sense to mix with the
existing mature forest that youhave here so that we are,
creating contiguous swaths of,habitat that, coincides

(31:02):
together, makes sense to betogether.

VO (31:13):
Stay tuned to the Ducks Unlimited podcast, sponsored by
Purina Pro Plan and Bird DogWhiskey after these messages.

When you decided to sign up and and jump into
this program with DU, how muchof that decision I know it was a
big family decision with youbecause we met with your family
when we did that sign up and andcame up and did our first thing.
And how much did that, the factthat Marshall was more
interested in a grazing programand not really, I guess, not not
as interested in row cropfarming?

Oh, no. He didn't wanna be a he didn't wanna be a
row crop.

So Not really at all. Uh-huh.

I think he he was he studied environmental science
in college. So as did our oldestdaughter

Mhmm.

Who you met. They were excited about it. I mean
all three of the children werewere fine with it. No. They
didn't offer any objections.
They were excited about it andjust as as much as we were. So,
I mean, it was no no brainer forus. We we really wanted to do
it.

Well, good. And that was that's something that
kind of I wanted to highlight isthe fact that not just you, but
your entire family is veryenvironmentally and conservation
minded. I mean Extremely. Youknow, you've got one daughter
that's that works at Land Trust,and Marshall does sustainable ag
here. And and so it all kindacomes together.
And what's really cool, asMaddie mentioned, this program

(32:39):
worked with all of that in away. Right? It made sense. And
so that was something I wantedto get across to our listeners
is that it was a big familydecision on kinda why you did
that, and and it made sense, andit works out with the direction
you were wanting to go with yourlegacy. And you still have the
farm and you're getting payment.
That's a good thing.

Oh, yeah. That that that was I won't say it was
the deciding factor, but it itwas it certainly sweetened the
the part because I because I wasgonna be deprived of income.

Right.
Yeah. But By taking your land out of
production. Yeah.

And so I couldn't get anything from now I still
lease it out for hunting rights,but the income from hunting
basically just pays the landtaxes, you know, which is fine.

That's right.

Yeah. The yeah. The I won't I don't wanna seem
like I'm grasping, but the moneywas nice.

No. No.

Well, I mean, it it made financial sense. Yeah. I
think that's

what I'm

trying to say. Right. We're not saying grasping
by any means, but it was abusiness decision too.

Right.

Right?

But it was decision that seems like made
you feel pretty good about ittoo.

Very. It had a very strong emotional quotient.

Good. Yeah. Well, that's

that's awesome. We love to hear that.

Yeah.

That's why we go to work every day. Yeah. And so
I think one of the things Iwanted to talk about, I'm a put
put you on the spot with Maddiehere, but how has it been to
work with DU's field staff?

Oh, you guys have been great.

I I know. Thank god.

I've been of course, my first experiences
were with Lauren.

Yes.

And and we love her. She's great. And she said
something amusing when she wroteme about you coming here. She
said, you're gonna like Maddiemuch more than you do, ma'am.
I'm too much of a northeaster.
And and I came back and said,hey. You know, I got a daughter
and grandchildren who arenortheasters now. We got a house

(34:32):
in Cooperstown, Upstate NewYork. Yeah.

Yeah. And the person we're talking to or
talking about for our listenersbecause they don't know, that's
Lauren Olliman. That's ourcarbon specialist. She's kinda
been kind of the the mastermindbehind this program and and
really to her credit as asdriving this partnership and
program.

She was my main contact and Nick Nick she and
Nick Smith.

Yes.

But Nick is retired on.

Yes. Nick Smith is retired. And Lauren just
speaks so highly of y'all too.And despite what she says about
her northeastern tendencies, shecouldn't be nice.

She's a sweetheart. Yeah.

We we we love her.

And Don't let her hear

this. Oh,

I did recall what I wanted to say a little
way back, and I do think it'simportant, for our listeners to
hear, that, you know, in termsof the conversation we were
having earlier about this beinga bit of a different type of
program for Ducks Unlimited andthat, you know, in some areas,
this program might provide moreindirect than direct benefits to

(35:39):
waterfowl as compared to some ofour other conservation programs.
But a really important facet ofthe Flyway Forest program is
that we are not only generatingor sequestering carbon, but
we're also generating creditsfrom those from that carbon
sequestration, which eventuallywill be put out on the open
market for sale. So we plan togenerate revenue from the sale

(36:02):
of these carbon credits thatwill then go back into Ducks
Unlimited to fund not only thisprogram, but our other wetland,
and conservation work.

How do how do carbon credits work? I'm not
familiar I mean, I've read aboutit, but I don't understand.

I wish Lauren was here. Yeah. I, yeah. Lauren
really is the brainchild behindthis program. She has a
mitigation background but isalso our carbon specialist, and
she comes from that world andcan really speak the ecosystem
services speak very fluently.

Just speaking of carbon, though, I just you you
estimate if a tree grows sayhalf an inch in diameter a year
Mhmm.

It's the biomass.

That's so many pounds

Yes.

That's exactly right.

Carbon and, you know, multiply, you know, trees
per acre and you get a number.

Yeah. That's it.

And then you can I looked up somewhere I think
wood is about 50% carbon? Isthat close to being right?

It can more than that, but Yeah. Yeah. It's it's
significant that a lot of thatbiomass is carbon.

Well, it's a car it's a carbohydrate, basically.

Yes. That's exactly right. So

So the the hydrogen part is lighter and
carbon atoms heavier. So right.But, anyway, that's how I
imagined it. That's it. Yep.
But no one can project fortyyears forward and tell me what
it's gonna be worth, you know,down the road.

No. And I don't know the exact rates right now
on the market. And and I willsay this is a voluntary carbon
market system. This is not anytype of regulatory credits or
anything like that. This is allvoluntary.
This is people trying to dowe're we're selling these
credits to organizations,companies, corporations that are
looking to increase theirsustainability goal the way that

(37:53):
they speak about how they impactnature. Right? And if they had a
big carbon use, then then theywant to try and maybe offset
that before any regulatoryactions are taken. Right? This
is They're trying to amelioratethe That's it.
On their own on a voluntarybasis.

The carbon that they produce.

That's right. Mhmm. That's right. So and
that's kinda how these marketsgo, and they go up and down, and
they're they're crazy. But oneof the reasons that I think that
this prog program and I've beenaround long enough on this
program because I actuallystarted before Maddie started on
this program.
I helped out with it a littlebit with some landowner outreach
as well as kinda just talking tothe staff and educating them on

(38:33):
some of that. So you've got thatlandowner outreach where you've
got the the carbon side, but oneof the things that DU does
really well is land protection.Right? And so when you're trying
to generate a carbon credit, youhave to have carbon. Right?
You have to have the accumulatedcarbon in the ecosystem. But
then when you wanna try and sellit, you have to say that that

(38:53):
carbon's gonna be there in fortyyears. It's gonna so the
durability. And one of thethings that DU does since we're
one of the largest land trustsin North America, we can put the
easement on it. Right?
That regulatory easement thatprotects it and makes that
credit durable. And that's a bigpart of why it makes sense. One
of the other things I'vementioned, but yeah. It just

(39:14):
came back to me. My magic momentcame back now.
Was the fact that one of thecool things with DU is not like
an NRCS easement. We're notquite as rigid as a federal
easement. So forty years downthe road, we've got a perpetual
easement on this. You're notsupposed to touch the trees for
forty years. Well, now you say,forty years, the carbon

(39:35):
program's over.
I wanna improve this forwildlife. I'd like to do a
thinning. And as long as it'sgot a wildlife slant on it,
Dee's gonna work with you tomake quality habitat.

Another thing to point out though is if you cut
down a tree, a white oak tree,and make whiskey barrels, you've
got that barrel is sequesteredcarpet. That's

true. Yep. That's true. That's true.
So Yeah.

You know, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't go
back into the atmosphere.

That's correct. That's correct. Right? If it's a
if it's a wood product orsomething that's gonna be
around. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. And the the those asMaddie mentioned, the the carbon
creditors, Right? Thoseverification agencies. They're
tricky in around the wetlandside and things and the trees
getting wet.
One of the weird things withwith carbon and wetlands is is a

(40:29):
methane issue and stuff, and sothis allows us to kinda work
around that. We are working. Weare trying to put some science
grants in and and to talk aboutgetting to the bottom of what
that actually looks like so wecan look at that winter flooding
that you mentioned, right, andhow minimal those effects are,
but someone's gotta quantify itfirst. But we have had
conversations with those Yeah.Creating agencies and

(40:52):
certification agencies aboutwhat they would need to approve
that.
And so we are going down thoseroads. We're wanting to make
these other financial marketsavailable for good high quality
waterfowl wildlife habitat.

Absolutely. And, you know, in terms of
actually quantifying thesecredits, we worked with some
great minds at Pachama early onduring the pilot phase of the
program. We partnered with themto well, for their carbon market
and carbon developmentexpertise. So there are some

(41:27):
very, very smart people outthere with some extremely
complicated but sound modelsthat can use the biomass and the
change in biomass over time toquantify or try to estimate how
much carbon has beensequestered, and that can then
turn into a metric of carbon byton, which gets us to being able

(41:47):
to sell those credits atwhatever the cost the market
currently, you know, has perton.

Well, an acre of trees will have a lot of tons.

Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah.

And to set your mind to rest about flooding,
I've been on this farm all mylife. And I've seen it flood
these creek bottoms maybe half adozen times

Yeah. In Yeah.

Sixty or seventy years. And it never stays on
more than a few hours.

Right.

You know, these creeks, there's not that much
drainage area back upstream fromus. And so it gets up and then
it runs off really fast.

Yeah.

Doesn't Yeah. Doesn't do much damage. Yeah.

So that's that's why. That's all perfectly fine.
And we we like that, Rex. That'ssupporting habitat. That is
that's good for the forestoverall, those pulse floods.

But And it probably puts some nutrients, I
I don't know, yeah, on the inthe soil.

Yeah. And that's all part of the
evaluation process when, alandowner comes to us with
interest or you submit anapplication. When we're
evaluating, your site, we arethinking about flood frequency
and things like that so that wecan guarantee with some
confidence the survival of thetrees that we plant. Yeah. And

(43:06):
and monitoring is an extremelyimportant program or, excuse me,
extremely important facet of theprogram.
Within the first five to sevenyears after we've planted those
trees, we do annual survivalmonitoring in the spring so that
we can not only quantify, youknow, that change in biomass,
but also understand if we areseeing die offs in some areas,

(43:28):
if we're not seeing as muchsurvival as we expected, or the
trees are growing a little bitslower than we had expected.
That's all information that wecan keep tabs on and adjust.
Well, adaptive management. Wecan adjust in real time either
through supplemental planting,maybe there's additional
chemical, application, butthings like that. You know, we
keep a close look on thesurvival of these trees in those

(43:51):
early establishment years tomake sure.

Well, do you you when you checked last spring
Yeah. You were not disappointed.

Oh, no. We were very happy with

Oh, really?

Yes. You know, survival, can vary across the
site, and you had some fieldsthat were doing absolutely
excellent, had no concerns aboutit, some areas where survival
was a little bit less thanothers. But as a site, or as a
whole, your site was performingvery well, and we were really
happy to see that.

So what's considered what do you consider
low or bad survival? Below 60%or something like

that? Our survival goal for Flyway Forest
is 80% survival across oursites.

Which is really high.

It is.
That's pretty high. Yeah.

Go. Go.

And that's that's why the survival
monitoring is so important forthis program because we do have
a lofty success goal, but that80 is what's gonna get us to our
carbon sequestration goals.

And that's why there is a little bit of a
preference for within the MAV,some of those little bit higher
sites. Right? Because thosetrees don't get wet feet as
much, and they're gonna have alittle higher.

So did you I I noticed one of the sites that
you were enthusiastic about lastspring was a pasture that was
all a hill, you know, it was andyou said you had very good
survival, which surprisedbecause we had a drought, you
know.

Yes.

And the the hills are much more drought
susceptible than the creekbottoms. But you were happy with
that, but you you didn't get asmuch in some of the sites in in
the on the bottomland.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there's a ton of
different reasons that could bewe did, of course, have the
drought. You know, if thosethose bottomland areas are used
to more inundation, regularinundation, you get hit with a
drought, we might see a moresevere response, you know, in
those areas. Soils play a partin it.

(45:51):
And even the the the conditionof the sapling before it's put
in the ground, you know, thatplays a big part in

Oh, sure. I mean, there's gonna be a lot of
variation.

I'm sure. Tons of variation. We were concerned
about the drought, as you'vementioned.

It was bad this year too.

Yes. Yeah. Was. Yeah.

It But wet early, and then it got real dry.

Right. But so if they survive one year Mhmm. Are
they more likely to survive thesecond day?

Every, yes. Every consecutive year, is just
that much more of a guaranteethat they are going to reach
maturity.

Put some more they put roots down deeper.

And Yeah. Those those first three years are
really volatile. Anything canhappen. So, you know, it's
really around the year threemark that we will start
considering what type ofadaptive management might be
needed. You know, we don't wannamake a gut reaction within those
first three years before wefully understand why those trees
did not perform as well or didnot survive.

(46:47):
So, yeah, usually around, yearthree is when we're gonna start
thinking about adaptivemanagement activities.

What you saw last year, no alarming diholes.

No. No, sir. Nothing alarming on your
property. We noted the amount ofvolunteer species like the
sycamores and the elm that werecoming up. But like Jarrett
mentioned earlier, eventually,there will be some self thinning

that could that surprised me with that there
were there were that many. Yeah.You know, it's a big number. You
know?

It is.

Yep. It was. But it's great to see that much
volunteer recruitment, to knowthat the trees wanna be here,
and they can do well here.

Well, then that's what's supposed to be here.

We left it all. Yeah. Exactly.

I know, I, another thing that I benefit
that I found that when I when Iwas farming this land, actually,
you know, the greatest runoff isgonna be off of farmed land
called we did no till, but stillyou get pretty and so your pipe
structures, you know, where youcontrol the erosion, your tail

(47:46):
ditches run into the creeks, Iwas constantly having to repair
those. And I don't anticipateany help to do that because I've
I've read the charts when I tookit first, of course. Runoff off
of of farmland is the greatest.Off of grassland is the next
lowest, but on forest, it's thelowest of all. The the speed of

(48:11):
the runoff with the Right.

The trees are gonna slow it down and the roots
soak it up. Yeah.

They well, they hold it back. You know? And, so
I don't anticipate having muchtrouble with these pipe
structures. Yeah.

Well, that's a great benefit. What

while you're talking about that, have you
seen any other benefits so far?Have you seen any wildlife
benefits or anything like that?

Seen lots of wildlife.

Really?

But, you know, we've because I I leased this
ground to some hunters andthey're Mhmm. They're ecstatic
about

it. I

would be. And and because we always see a lot of
deer. Mhmm. And you know, Ihaven't seen any, you know,
lions or tigers or bears oranything. But we do we do see
Yeah.
Plenty of of deer.

Deer. Turkey?

Oh, right. We covered up turkeys.

Really? Good.

Yeah. They they like that the mast out of those
trees too when they startproducing.

And they like that cover right now coming up in
those thickets. That's good.

Yeah. Good. Talked to

one habitat.

Guy, a friend of mine who was a surveyor, and he
had he did some surveying. Well,we had to do it for this, you
know. And he thought that itmight bring back the bobwhite
quail. I don't know if that'sgonna be the case.

There's a lot of evidence actually because this
is something we've talked aboutrecently. There's a lot of
evidence that in the at least inthe first ten years, yes. But as
that canopy starts to to closeand the and it thins back out,
it'll go back down. You know,the heydays in the the fifties
and sixties of quail huntingkind of through the Mid South, a

(49:47):
lot of that came from the factthat they just cleared
everything, right, in the in theforties and fifties. Post World
War two, bulldozers camethrough.
It was real easy to clear andand then everything some of that
stuff got to grow back upthickets and it created this
incredible quail habitat Well,they like for twenty, thirty
years.

They like edges. They do.

They do.

And and, they also this was a strange I I you
know, it's a great tragedy to mebecause I used to love to to
quail hunting, they're just notanymore. My my son, Marshall, he
saw a pair last Swipe up.Spring.

Oh, fantastic.

But that's the first time I've seen any. But I
noticed they would go on oneevening walking back to our
pickup through a cotton field.We were just walking down the
rows. And it was twilight so wecouldn't see and we busted about
four cubbies out in the middleof that cotton field. They were

(50:42):
roosting out there so I guessthey figured to figure out the
great big field like that thatno wildlife was no predators
were gonna bother them.

Out in the middle. Yeah. Well, that cotton still
they can run around under thatcotton. It's it's real bushy.
But

Yeah. But it was it had already been picked. You

know? Gotcha.

But, but I can't imagine these fields now. I
mean, they got

A lot easier to hide

out there. Oh my gosh.

A lot easier. Yeah.

Yeah. I grew up my grandfather was a quail hunter.
That was his his, his favoritething to do. And I can say in
the in this the hunting world,one of the prettiest places I've
ever been is behind an Englishsetter on a quail hunt

Oh, yeah. On point.

It's a pretty place. It's a really pretty
site.

Yeah. It's it's a it's a thrilling, a cubby burst,
but and sadly, it's it's gone.But deer and turkey, when I was
a child, there were no deer andturkey out here. None. We had
you know, I had I was also acoon owner Okay.
Which was to the despair of mymother. I remember coming in one

(51:44):
night from a coon at four in themorning, and I had to get up and
go to work the next morning. Andshe woke me up at six, and I was
moaning, and I was not happy.And she said, get up out of that
bed and go to work. I have neverknown a coon hunter who was
worth a damn.

Well, you'll have lots of raccoons back too.

My gosh. Well, we got we got plenty

of now. Yeah.

Well, I

bet with the cattle operation and the
pastured pork that they like tohang around that too.

Oh, yeah? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Do they? And we're,
we're getting one animal that Idon't want, and that is the,
wild pig.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You're getting feral hogs here now? Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. That's all.

They are they just feral domesticated hogs
gone wild, or are they the oldRazorback? Arkansas. You know?
Yeah. Don't be pointing at the

Arkansas guy. He's he's a little sore right
now after this

past weekend. But tried Memphis Memphis State beat
artists.

I'm a Memphis alum too, so I'm not I'm I'm a
conflicted person. I don't thinkwe need to put any of that on
this podcast.

I'm having trouble.

Yeah. I think, Maddie, you might be able answer
this better than me, but someare Yeah. Domesticated pigs that
have have escaped and are feral.Some, I'm not gonna say they're
wild, but they are a much olderlineage of pigs that were
released by Europeans earlyearly on. So they've been feral

(53:13):
or wild for a long time.
Yeah. So

Yeah. No. That that's right. That's what I was
gonna say. I was going tomention, yeah, the European
ancestors that brought overtheir variation.
I mean, well, you hear about ittoo with songbirds. You know,
when we came to America andsettled, our ancestors wanted
things that reminded them ofEurope, of homes.

They brought them over.

Brought, yeah, brought them over. And,
unfortunately, that has justbecome, such a prolific issue,
and some of them are trulyferal. Some are, domesticated
livestock that have gotten outand are out there causing just
as much havoc as

I saw this has been ten, fifteen years ago. So
an emu on this place. Emu. And Iknow that's not native. No.
And it was I think people boughtthe and, you know, they had a

(54:15):
it's kinda like a Ponzi scheme.You know, the first guy that
gets into it makes a lot

of money and stuff. Yeah.

And then everybody gets emus, and then
they turn them loose.

So I

don't know

what to

do with one. Been released. Okay. And, it was
strange seeing that. I wasdriving down the pickup, running
my pickup down the road.
It was spring. I had the windowsdown, and he was running beside
the pickup. And I wanted to seehow fast he could go. And he hit
about 30 miles an hour. I mean,I could not believe.

That's getting it.

I was looking out the right window, and he he was
just pacing along, and he all asudden, he just turned and
looked at me. Just looked, andhe freaked me out.

I imagine saying that's definitely not
something you'd expect to seeout here. Sounds like somebody
had a an exotic operation, lostsome of their stock.

Well, as we're as we've hit most of the questions
that I wanted to go through, buta couple questions I really want
to get to towards the end here.If you were recommending this
program or this project to otherlandowners or your neighbors,
you know, what would you tell

them?

I already have. You know?

Good. That's that's that's amazing to hear.
Thank you.

I well, course, I tried to get my neighbor, Bob,
to sign up, and he mayeventually do it if y'all keep
the program alive. But anotherfriend of mine who I grew up
with, and we play bridgetogether every Tuesday, and he
asked me about it. And I gavehim as much detail as I could,
and I I didn't follow-up withhim to know if he tried to

(55:51):
follow-up with you guys, but Igave him Lauren's number. And
the guy in Jackson, the lawyerJosh. Josh.
Yeah. Josh.

Yep.

But whether he I I need to ask him that the next
time I see him because he's heexpressed an interest in it.

Well, awesome.

Uh-huh.

So you've had a good experience. Yeah. And
that's awesome. I think one ofour our biggest questions, do
you feel like you're making adifference by reforesting, like,
to the whole landscape?

Do feel like this program

is Absolutely. You know, it's making I'm, you
know, back to nature. You know,it's it's kinda

It's kinda nice to work with mother nature to

fight mother nature. And I I like the idea
that we're gonna have a lot morewildlife. I don't know if I want
any panthers, but I know? Okay.Okay.

Maybe a bear,

but No. No.

No. We may get those. You know? You may. Well,
they there's lots

of rumors around here.

They've seen them as as close as like Sledge,
Mississippi, which is about 20miles Yeah. Of here. They've I
don't know how they get theycame from Arkansas. I think they
crossed the rivers.

Yeah. And the river the between the levees has
a bunch of bears too. Yeah. Likelike but, you know, I think
Mississippi used to be kinda thebear state.

Oh, yeah. A lot

of bears. It's, you know, it's kinda cool. It's
it's a very charismatic animalto to show that that there's
potential for that to come backand for that wildlife and

Well, the honeybee farmers, I mean, don't
like them, you know,

because they

they bust up bust up their eyes.

Well, that's understandable. But

my daughter, May, is up in of course, she's up in
Upstate New York where she'sseen all kind of bear scat and
bear tracks

Yeah. You know,

on the

land that she looks at.

There's a bunch of bears.

She's never encountered a bear, but they're
they're black bears. Right.They're not the the dangerous
kind. Right.

They did just call her a record breaking black
bear in Mississippi. I believethat was earlier this year or
late last year in the Delta,record breaking for its size.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, was I can'tremember its weight off the top
of my head, but just from thepictures alone.

They get up 300 pounds, don't they?

It was a massive
400. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And it broke the state record for
the largest black bear they hadever collared or at least had on
record. That's cool. Yeah.
And that was just earlier, Ibelieve earlier this year.

And that's one of the species that will benefit
from this. Right? Is that

Oh, heavens. Yes.

I mean that native black bear too.

Yeah. Yeah. They all like that. And then and
then, of course of course, thecoyotes, they're kind of
invasive, I think. They theyweren't here.
Well, maybe I know, but I neversaw them as a child. But

Their populations are certainly doing

And you're doing

And you hear you hear them howling.

Yeah.

And my son has a compost pile where he puts the
awful Mhmm. Be and he mixes itwith just organic matter. Mhmm.
It's basic these guys had trimtrees

Mhmm.

And grind up the he's made a deal with them. They
just dump on him. Gotcha. Takesit out there. He goes, that's
just a feast for cattle.

Yeah. And

That's probably why you're hearing a bunch

of them.

Oh my god. We

when Meg my wife Meg was a city girl and when we
she first moved down there withme, we were right on this porch.
Well, I think I was in thebasement. I had a saw down. I
was doing some woodwork. Shecame tearing down the stairs and
she'd heard her first bunch ofcoyotes.
And, really, she was freakedout.

She's a little shaken

up. She thought

she'd moved to the wilderness. Because she's
gotten used to it now. She'spaying

attention. It's a beautiful place to get used
to.

Yeah. Yeah. We we like it.

Oh, it's a beautiful place out here. It is.
Well, as we start to kinda wrapup, Maddie, do you have anything
else you kinda wanna finishwith?

I would just encourage landowners if you are
looking for an alternativeprogram for your land. Maybe you
are considering getting out ofrow crop agriculture, maybe you
wanna get out of grazing, andyou're looking for something
that's a little bit different,that's going to allow you to
still use your land in multipleways to meet your recreation and

(01:00:03):
your management goals, make alittle money off of it, and
contribute to the long termstewardship of our bottomland
hardwood forest, I wouldstrongly encourage you to look
us up at Flyway Forest, at ourwebsite, on Ducks Unlimited, and
consider reaching out to one ofus. We would love to talk to you
about our program, how it fitson your property, and what that

(01:00:25):
type of partnership looks like.So please reach out if you're
interested.

Jerad Henson (01:00:29):
We'll put the contact info down in the
description. Mister Mike, asalways, it's wonderful to talk
to you and and hear your storiesand and your passion for and the
environment in this farm. It'sit's you so much for joining us

Mike Bartlett (01:00:41):
It's a win win for for me. That's awesome.
Yeah. I'll be loving it.

Jerad Henson (01:00:45):
Well, we're so glad that we could talk to you.
Mhmm. We gotta say thank you toto Matty and and mister Mike for
joining us on on our podcasttoday. I'm gonna thank, Chris
Isaac, our podcast producer,because he's gonna have a lot of
work to do cleaning me up onthis. And we always gotta thank
the listeners.
Thank y'all for tuning in.Hopefully, was an episode that

(01:01:07):
y'all really enjoyed, somethinga little different, and and you
can learn a little bit aboutsome of the other things that
Ducks Unlimited is doing, andthe creative ways we're we're
trying to partner withlandowners to to create high
quality, waterfowl and wildlifehabitat. So thanks for tuning
in, and we'll catch y'all on thenext one.

VO (01:01:28):
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Ep. 714 - Roots of Restoration: Private Landowners Powering the Flyway Forests

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 714 - Roots of Restoration: Private Landowners Powering the Flyway Forests