September 11, 2024 • 29 mins
In today's fast-paced, tech-driven world, cell phones are a constant companion—but what happens when schools hit the brakes and say, "No phones allowed?" On this episode of the Elevate Education Podcast, host Matt Palaoro talks with Chris Hagel, Chief Information Officer at Peninsula School District in Washington. With over two decades of experience in K-12 technology, Chris shares how his district navigated restricting cellphones in classrooms.
Are these restrictions actually helping students focus, or are they creating new challenges? The results might surprise you! From improved student focus to a stronger sense of community and even a drop in cyberbullying, Chris reveals how the decision to curb phone use has led to some unexpected benefits. Chris also shares the hurdles, pushback, and lessons learned along the way.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey there, welcome back to the Elevate Education Podcast.
I'm your host, Matt Polaro.
As educators, parents, students, and honestly, any person with access to an Apple store,we're constantly faced with technology in our daily lives.
We often have to make decisions about how to interact with it, whether it's helpful or adistraction.
And on today's show, we're joined by Chris Hagel, the Chief Information Officer atPeninsula School District in the beautiful state of Washington.
(00:28):
Welcome, Chris.
With 24 years of experience in K -12 educational technology, Chris is skilled intechnology architecture and a
envisioning solutions to problems that require innovative thinking, leveraging a mix ofbest practices and cutting edge possibilities.
Chris is the perfect guy for this conversation.
And Chris, I've really been looking forward to this episode because we're diving into ahot topic that I think is on a lot of our families, students, communities, minds, and that
(00:58):
is the topic of cell phones in schools.
So as you probably know, in recent years, 11 states have passed laws or enacted
policies that ban restrict students use of cell phones at schools statewide.
The big question here is, are these bans creating a better learning environment for ourstudents or are they inadvertently driving a wedge between students and their schools?
(01:22):
Chris is here to help us unpack all of this.
Welcome to the show, Chris.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So Chris, just to get started for our listeners, could you just tell us a little bit aboutyour district, where you are in Washington, and the students you serve?
Sure.
So the Peninsula School District is in the state of Washington, a medium sized district,about 9 ,000 students.
(01:46):
We're approximately 45 minutes to an hour south of Seattle, right across the NarrowsBridge from Tacoma, Washington.
we are a mix of, you know, kind of, we have a section of our district that's fairlyaffluent and a section of our district that is a little bit more low income.
So we kind of see both of that.
(02:06):
are growing in our
diversity as well here in this area.
you know, it's a, it's a small town sort of feel here, but you know, really close to thebig city in Seattle.
So, yeah, that's kind how we are.
That's awesome.
You know, a lot of people in Jeffco say we're a large district, but we get small realfast.
(02:28):
Really love our community and I'm excited for our community to hear your insights on thistopic in particular.
So I'm gonna jump right in.
know, schools have been integrating various technologies in the classroom like Chromebooksand tablets, AI and so on and so forth for years.
But what sets cell phones apart and makes them particularly tricky to manage from yourperspective?
(02:53):
Sure.
you know, over the years we've all we've been having and particularly after the pandemic,but we've been having a lot of conversations about what we were calling digital wellness.
You know, making sure that our kids are healthy and safely using technology.
But one of the things that we saw when we particularly when we came back out of thepandemic was essentially just a real addiction to the device, the constant notifications,
(03:21):
the constant
pains on their phone, the constant conversations that were going on.
I would stand in the back of a classroom and as the teacher's trying to teach in the classof 30 kids and you got two kids that are really paying attention to her at 28 that are
essentially on their phones looking at the snap that just came in or the text message theyjust got or whatever message that was.
(03:43):
It had become too much for us.
These kids were just struggling mightily with.
how to stay on track and stay on task and not be just completely engrossed by the cellphone.
And that's the business of the big social media companies that are doing a lot of this isthey want your eyeballs.
(04:04):
And so they pay a lot of people a lot of money to make sure that people are constantlylooking at their application and that involves our kids too.
Yeah, and so tell me a little bit about, know, so kids are coming back from the pandemic.
You're noticing some high distractibility with cell phones.
(04:24):
It's getting difficult to manage.
You know, how did you really tackle this issue head on?
Did you, as a school district, completely ban cell phones?
Have you restricted cell phones?
you know, really what, where did that conversation begin?
So it started, we tried to tackle this, like I mentioned just a bit ago, with like a, kindof did a digital wellness initiative, which is talking to kids in school and talking to
(04:52):
parents at parent nights about what is healthy use of digital technology and what isunhealthy use.
And how can you start to regulate yourself and help others regulate themselves as well.
And for the people that would make it to those meetings, it was informative, but.
They still, we would come back six months later and have the same parents at the meetingand they're like, we tried everything that you gave us and nothing is working.
(05:19):
And then teachers in the classroom are having the exact same experiences as well.
They would be doing lessons with kids about how to properly turn off notifications andstay on track and their own personal mental health.
it was just, just, nothing was working.
So our first.
You know, we were trying to figure out what to do as a district and one of our highschools came to us two years ago near the end of the school year.
(05:45):
think that about six or eight weeks left and said, Hey, you know, we just had a staffmeeting with all of our teachers and we have agreed that we want to enforce a cell phone
ban for the last six weeks of school.
I'm not going to say that they can't have them.
They just can't have them out and being distracted by them in the class.
so.
(06:06):
We were hesitant a little bit, I think, because we didn't know how this was going to goover, both with parents and with students.
We were really kind of worried about that.
The high school did a nice job of pulling together their ASB leaders and had thoseconversations and said, you know, what is this?
This is what we want to do.
What do you guys think is going to be the problems?
(06:27):
How do you feel about it?
And, you know, the kids came back and they were like, yeah, let's give it a try.
We realize.
we even realize that there's a problem and something needs to change for us.
so that gave them the power to do that in that building.
then kind of from their experience and then with, you know, we were starting to get a lotof conversations, comments at the school board meetings, the board, you know, continually
(06:52):
hearing from parents saying, guys need to do something, there's problems, you know, somuch cyber bullying going on.
There's so many, you know,
just issues that are taking place and we want you guys to do something.
And so last summer under the direction of our school board, I put together a new boardpolicy that they adopted in July.
(07:12):
Essentially saying cell phones are not allowed in class and in passing periods.
We do call out in the procedure that they could be used before and after school and we'renot gonna be.
searching for kids that have the phone on them.
That wasn't really our goal is to turn into a police state around this, but we just wantto make sure we don't see them.
(07:36):
We don't hear them.
They're not out and being used in the classroom during instruction.
That's really, really what we were going for.
I think that that stance has helped us in a lot of ways.
The kids aren't as hesitant about not having the phone all day because they could stillhave it in their backpack.
(07:57):
Some of our middle schools did decide to go a little bit more strict on that and say, knowwhat, when you get here in the morning, you lock that phone in your locker and you can
have it at the end of the day.
And we're okay with that if that's a decision they want to make.
We kind of set the, we set the basic of, you know, it's not going to be out in theclassroom and how you want to tackle that as a school that we left that up to the schools
(08:18):
to make that decision that it's going to work best for them.
really fascinating.
It sounds like you really, you know...
or community, took the time to get some input and then engaged your board in thedevelopment of a new policy.
And with this new policy in place, what have been some of the noticeable benefits orsuccesses you've observed?
(08:39):
Specifically, I'm wondering how these policies have positively impacted the learningenvironment from a student perspective, but also from an educator perspective.
What has changed?
Yeah, so we started the year really nervous.
This last school year to see what was going to happen, how we hear from parents, but untilyou make a big change like this, you don't hear from all the parents.
(09:07):
And we were worried, what were we going to get as far as pushback and blowback?
I literally, out of our 9 ,000 students, I took three parent phone calls on this newpolicy.
So we were really surprised at that.
Our superintendent and I started going out and meeting with students in October just tosay, hey, you how's this going?
(09:29):
We're, we started getting feedback, you know, anecdotally from principals saying, Hey,this is kind of weird, but we're seeing more kids talk at lunch.
We're seeing kids, even though they could technically have their phones out at lunch,they're not bringing them out.
We're seeing kids in assemblies talking to each other, not just sitting, you know, headdown.
When we go into classrooms, there's more conversation going on.
(09:49):
And that was kind of our
anecdotal evidence from our principals.
And so we wanted to hear from the kids themselves.
And so the superintendent and I started going into some high school classrooms and justsitting down and getting that feedback from them.
the kids were really surprising.
You know, they were they were saying things like, you know, I kind of have ADHD and I'malways distracted and this has really helped.
(10:13):
They were saying things like I'm focusing more on my work in the classroom.
There was a lot of conversation.
amongst the kids about how when they walk into class, they're having more conversationswith the kids around them.
Whereas historically they would walk into class, down at their desk and to hop on theirphone and catch up on their latest Snapchat or Instagram or whatever messages that they
(10:34):
needed to see.
And now because the phones aren't out, they're actually talking to the people around them.
I did a, go ahead.
Yeah.
on that.
You know, I read an article recently where
they had interviewed a group of students about where do they stand on cell phone bansversus cell phone restrictions.
(10:57):
And one school where cell phones had been banned, a student said, what I've noticed aboutthis change is that I'm talking with my peers rather than at them through technology,
which is really fascinating because it sounds like to me some of the benefits that you'venoticed right away is not only an academic benefit,
(11:20):
with like increased focus and engagement but also a social benefit for students.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I did a podcast with one of our middle school principals in the spring of last year.
And she brought up the fact that in her building, the prior year, she had 50, I think 52incidents of cyber bullying that she dealt with in that middle school.
(11:45):
And by April of last year, she had had less than five.
When the cell phones aren't out and they're not around, the
the bullying was going down, she was seeing dramatic reductions in a lot of the bullyingthat she had had in her building, specifically around things that kids were doing online
(12:07):
and cyber bullying.
So there's that piece too that we've really seen a pretty good reduction in.
Yeah, that's incredible.
What are some of the challenges that have come about from this?
Do you notice students feeling bored at school?
I know you mentioned more engaged.
(12:27):
I'm just curious to know what are some of the new behaviors that are reemerging that maybewere present pre -cell phones in school?
Yeah, so we did another focus group with kids.
Our superintendent had her student, superintendent student advisory council, and shebrought them together.
I think it was in November or December of last year.
(12:47):
And we got some really good feedback.
A lot of it mirrored what we had already heard in other classes earlier in the year.
But then there was the kids that were like, you know, there's just not enough to do inclass.
And when I'm finished with all my work, I used to be able to just sit and put myheadphones in and listen to music.
And now I can't do that.
And so don't know, you know,
I don't have anything to do at the end of class every day.
(13:08):
Or, you know, there was conversations or like, I'd really just like to be able to send afew messages here and there.
And, you know, they kind of wanted, some of those kids just wanted a little bit morefreedom and flexibility.
But I think the biggest challenge that we really have encountered and the thing that weheard most from kids at that last superintendent advisory council was it's really hard to
(13:30):
make a global change like this across an entire school district because
getting everyone to do the same thing.
And this is on the adult end, not the kids.
Getting them to enforce it consistently has been a little bit of a challenge.
And so the kids came to us and said, their feedback was, know, we can understand, weunderstand the restrictions, we understand why they're here.
(13:52):
Yes, we'd like some more freedom, but if we don't have the freedom, the least we wouldrequest is that every single staff member enforced it consistently.
They said, you know,
If we go to, if we have five classes that are like no phones, no phones, no phones, andthen we have one teacher, it's like, I don't really care about that rule.
You know, it makes it really hard for them to know, you know, when it's okay and when it'snot okay.
(14:15):
And so, and that's our, that's kind of our big push this year going into the school years.
We just had a meeting with principals on Wednesday and it was, know, we need consistent,consistent enforcement across all the classes.
That's what the parents are asking for.
That's what our kids are asking for.
We just need to do it the same way.
that's really, you know, it's, it's a minuscule amount percentage wise of, know, theclasses that are maybe not enforcing it exactly the same, but I think that's, you know,
(14:42):
that's, that was the one thing that we heard louder than anything from the students wasjust we can understand and we can get behind and deal with all of the restrictions.
We just want to make sure it's the same everywhere.
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
mean, I think, you know, students and humans in general do better with predictability andconsistency and expectations and not being treated differently.
(15:07):
You know, I'm wondering with the
I'm wondering if or how you manage or respond to when students aren't meeting expectationsor are choosing to pull their cell phones out when they're not supposed to.
And have you seen an increase in disciplinary infractions with regards to these new rulesor policies that you've put into place?
(15:34):
you know, it kind of has depended, building by building.
So what we said in our, the procedure that went with our policy is, know, it needs to be agraduate or gradually increasing levels of discipline.
Like if a kid pulls it out, a teacher should just say, you know, put it away the firsttime.
If it happens multiple times and let's send that, take that phone away and they can haveit back at the end of class.
(15:57):
And then, you know, from there, if it continues, then it goes to the principal and theprincipal keeps it.
Kid can have it at the end of the day.
You know, as it keeps going up, the consequences get a little bit stronger, you know, tothe point where the phone gets taken and it doesn't get returned until mom and dad come
and get it.
And there's, gradually kind of step it up from there.
(16:18):
for the most part, I don't think we've seen a, like a system wide overall increase.
have seen in a couple of buildings where, some buildings have really, really tried to, youknow,
be the heavy hand in this and there's a lot more discipline referrals coming from teacherson it.
But I think across the system, it's been a negligible increase.
(16:43):
Let me shift gears a little bit.
You know as educators and leaders, know, part of our responsibility is to model the way,so to speak.
How are your educators and the adults in the building modeling this expectation that wehold of kids to not have their cell phones out in class?
(17:04):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?
We were just having that when we were having the conversation with our building leadersthis week about it.
That was one of the things that they brought up that they knew that they needed to workmore with their teachers on because the teachers still may have their phone in their
pocket and pull it out many times a day or whatever.
(17:26):
it's one of the things that we've, even back before we did the cell phone thing, the cellphone restrictions,
that we were trying to teach adults and teach parents is, know, kids are going to modelthe behavior that they see.
And so if you as a parent or you as an instructor in the classroom are constantlydistracted by the phone, they're going to model that same behavior, whether they see it at
(17:47):
home or see it in the classroom.
so we're working on it.
It's not, it's harder even to change adult behavior than it is to change students in somecases.
And so, but yeah, it's, something we're cognizant of and something our principals aregoing to be.
leading through their work.
We're a district that starts really late in the year.
(18:07):
We start after Labor Day.
And so next week is our big teacher professional development week.
And so our instructional leaders will be working with the teachers on some of those typesof strategies and concepts as they talk about cell phone enforcement this coming year.
Yeah, I was just thinking, like, I know it's a challenge for our students, but it also isprobably a challenge for some of our adults.
(18:30):
I can tell you I've already checked three text messages during this podcast inadvertently.
And so anyways, one question I had too was, I get why.
we would go this direction of putting restrictions in place or even outright banning cellphones.
(18:52):
What were some of the arguments against it?
And did your district think about the possibility of using cell phones as an instructionaltool prior to going the direction of limiting access or restricting access to cell phones
in the classroom?
(19:12):
Yeah, I've been at this for 24 years now in two different districts and I've been incharge of everything instructional and operational in regards to technology for, boy, at
least 12 years here in this district.
I would say most of my entire career was trying, before we did this, was trying toconvince educators to learn strategies to use cell phones productively in classroom and
(19:38):
instruct kids on how to use cell phones productively in the classroom.
We have some teachers that have done some amazing things with it.
But by and large, it has become a classroom management problem more than it's been aninstructional opportunity.
All of our students do have other devices that we provide them.
(19:59):
So they have devices that they can be using, and that's kind of where our teachers focustheir energy is, take the device that the district provides you and let's use it for
instruction.
There's a ton of possibilities with cell phones, but I think the constant notifications,the constant battle with trying to get their attention away from what they have or should
(20:21):
be doing in the classroom is why it just makes it a little bit different.
It sounds like the risk outweighs the reward.
Can I ask with the handful of parents that have reached out to you in opposition or withconcerns or questions about this new policy and its enforcement, what were some of the
(20:44):
challenges they brought to you and how did you go about navigating them or tackling them?
Yeah, I think the most common, and like I said, it hasn't been very many.
We've been completely surprised at the support that our parents have had behind this.
the people that called were people that were really concerned about knowing where theirkid, and it was mostly younger kids.
(21:14):
wasn't the high school kids.
was the kids that may have a phone that...
in an elementary school that their parents use to track the kids so they know where theyare every day or know where they are at all times or be able to reach them at any time.
so I think because we went the route, there's a lot of districts that are pondering theidea of having kids put their cell phones in bags in these pouches so they're unusable
(21:44):
during the school day.
We've kind of resisted that idea and I think it's what's helped us a lot with our parentsis, know, while the kids don't have their phones out in class and they don't have.
real quick access to them.
They do have them at school and can get them, you know, and most kids, I think in most ofour schools, if they're not in a school where the school's decided that they should be in
(22:06):
the lockers, most kids keep them in their backpack.
So in an event of an emergency, which is what, you know, we were really thinking thatparents were going to be most concerned about, the kids have them within a reasonable
distance that they could get to the phone if they needed it.
There's a lot that are kind of safety people in our local law enforcement say,
(22:26):
We really don't want you on your device in an emergency anyway.
So this might not be the worst thing in the world, but we know the comfortability forparents and kids or students to have them if something were to happen is important.
so I think that's what's, that's what's helped us a little bit.
And that's one of the things that council other districts when I I've taken a lot of callsfrom people all over the country this year on, you know, how did you do it?
(22:50):
What did you do and what's worked well and what hasn't.
And one of the things I say is because we didn't go the
completely difficult route of putting them in bags or having them in pouches or locked upin lockers in most cases.
Parents have been pretty tolerant because they haven't worried as much about the safety.
(23:10):
really comes from a, the parents that are concerned, comes from a worry about what happensif something bad happens at school.
Whether it's, I was just gonna say, and it's not always, we're in Washington, earthquakesare a thing here.
And statistically, probably more likely than many other things to happen to our kidsduring the school day.
(23:32):
so, you know, being able to reach your kids if something bad were to happen, that's theparent's big concern.
Yeah, it sounds like you with your policy and an approach to management rather thanbanment or banning.
it sounds like you've found just the right balance where students still have the abilityto communicate with their parents or guardians or whatever the case might be throughout
(23:58):
the day, whether that's just checking in or if an emergency situation does come up, theyhave the ability to get in touch with their families.
But ultimately, it sounds like you've given families kind of the...
peace of mind that they need tied back to their concerns about students or their kids nothaving access to their cell phones during the school day.
(24:23):
So I applaud you for that.
That's definitely one of the biggest concerns that I hear from our families as we talkabout this topic.
You know, have you noticed yet any increase in like academic performance in terms of likethe achievement and growth outcomes of your school district that you can tie back to?
(24:46):
this implementation of phone restrictions.
Yeah, it's so hard.
I was having another conversation with somebody this morning because our district'sactually doing a lot with artificial intelligence as well right now.
So it's kind of this weird dichotomy of, you know, getting rid of cell phones, but alsopushing forward quickly on AI.
And it's really hard.
You know, we have three or four big initiatives across our entire district and it's reallyhard to tie any of any one of them to increases in academic performance.
(25:16):
The one thing that we are seeing an uptick on so
You know, we have our strategic academic goals, but we also have a strategic goal aroundstudent sense of belonging in school.
And so we measure that three times a year, I believe.
And for years, we've been flatlining kind of across all of our schools on student sense ofbelonging.
(25:39):
you know, it's really been something that we've been trying to move the needle on and it'sfinally moving this year for the first time in five or six years.
And I think
That's one place where we're starting to see some movement.
It's really hard to tie some of the like our literacy numbers or our math numbers becausewe have, you know, we have a huge focus on UDL.
(26:00):
We have a huge focus on early literacy.
so just cell phones and tying cell phones by themselves to being the contributing factorare kind of hard.
But I think the one place that we can, we've seen increases in our sense of belongingdata.
And that's, you know, I think we can reliably assume that that is in response to the cellphone.
restrictions.
(26:20):
That is very interesting.
Now, do you think that is attributed to students being in an environment that lends itselfto greater collaboration and person to person, student to student interactions because
(26:40):
their phone's not available in the classroom and they're therefore developing deeperrelationships than maybe they had?
before this phone restriction.
Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case.
mean, you when you do the, when the kids do their survey about their self assessment onsense of belonging, you know, it asks questions like, is there a student that you think
(27:05):
feels like they care about you at school?
Is there an adult that you think cares about you at school?
You know, how do you, and it's questions like that.
And so the fact that those numbers are moving means that kids have, something is changingfor them.
And I think a lot of that, I, you know, this is
Our belief is that a lot of that is due to the fact that kids are finally going back totalking to each other more and having more conversations and getting to know the kids in
(27:29):
class a little bit better than just, you know, who they are as a person on social media orwho they are as a person, you know, that they see through their phone and that's their
interaction instead of, you they're a person that I sit next to in my classroom and Iactually talk about things that are important to me.
Yeah, I mean, I could see how reducing phone distractions can create opportunities forstudents to like engage with one another, like strengthening their social bonds and kind
(27:57):
of sense a community in the classroom.
That's, that is really, really sweet.
And is that an outcome that you expected or is that a surprise that showed up in your datathat you had this aha moment and connected it back to this work?
It was an outcome we hoped for.
(28:17):
Like I mentioned, we've struggled for quite a while moving the needle on our sense ofbelonging.
And we've been trying a of different tactics in a lot of different buildings.
And we were really not making a huge amount of progress on that.
And so it was one of the things that we were really trying to keep an eye on was what asense of belonging looked like this year as the numbers were starting to come through.
(28:40):
so, yeah, we've been pleasantly surprised to see that that actually did work out.
Yeah, and something you had mentioned earlier when you were kind of sharing thecomposition of your school district having some more affluent communities and some more
communities that face socioeconomic challenges.
(29:02):
I'm wondering too for families or students that don't have the latest technology or feelcomfortable using their phones in social settings, like how this has
leveled the playing field for them and whether or not you're seeing a greater sense ofbelonging with some of our students who previously had reported not feeling a sense of
(29:27):
community, but also who fall into that category of students who maybe aresocioeconomically disadvantaged.
Yeah, think I definitely think there's something there.
There's another thing that kind of surprised me this year a little bit.
What kind of along the same lines is we've been doing a lot with helping parents for yearson talking about the impact of social media on their kids.
(29:58):
And so we did a parent night.
We did a few parent nights and we showed a documentary called like.
this last year and it was about social media addiction essentially.
And in the conversations afterwards, we would always have conversations with the parentsand a lot of them would come back and say, you I had so much pressure from my kid, I have
(30:21):
to have a phone, I have to have a phone, I have to have a phone, everybody else has aphone.
And these parents were trying to hold out, you know, the more that they're starting tolearn about when is the appropriate age for students to start getting a cell phone.
parents were trying to get farther and farther down as kids get older and older.
And some parents were even trying to hold the line and say, no cell phones until highschool or no cell phones until late middle school.
(30:47):
And so many of them had admitted that with their younger kids, it just collapsed becauseof the pressure that they were constantly having from their kid every single day.
Everybody else has a phone.
Everybody else has a phone.
I'm the only one that doesn't have a phone.
You're making me the outcast.
And now,
Some of these parents with their younger kids are saying, they're just not asking as much.
(31:09):
When everybody doesn't have a phone out while they're sitting at the lunch table andeverybody doesn't have a phone out in class every day, the pressure isn't there.
And so these kids aren't as worried about, do I have a phone or not?
Especially in the sixth, seventh, eighth grade years in middle school, where parents arestill trying to hold that line and trying to go as long as possible without giving their
(31:30):
kids the phones.
Yeah, I I imagine that really kind of.
ensures that no one feels excluded based on their access to the latest and greatesttechnology or any technology at all and kind of breaks down some of those social
hierarchies that Are most important or start to develop at those middle school high schoolyears?
(31:53):
You know, I want to go back to this social media piece too and just ask you know withstudents having limited access to their phone during the school day meaning they have
limited access to social media and just knowing that
social media has emerged as kind of a contributing factor to mental health or having anadverse impact on mental health.
(32:18):
What have you noticed around some of those mental health kind of outcomes?
Are you seeing students reporting you know a lower sense of anxiety and stress or are youtracking any of that kind of data?
What are some of the things that you've saw in that area?
We're not tracking it explicitly.
(32:39):
I don't have real great data to share on that.
I have the belief that it's improving, but we don't have anything really quantitative toshow on that one.
Yeah, yeah, I was just curious if that was something that you were measuring or has beenan unintended kind of outcome of the approach that you've all taken.
(33:06):
So shifting gears again a little bit, technology is constantly evolving.
How does your district plan to stay ahead of the curve and adapt its policies as newtechnologies emerge?
I know you mentioned AI.
I'm really curious about what you have in the works there.
Yeah.
So we've been, we've been a district that's embraced AI from its outset.
(33:29):
think we had teachers going through AI training, even before chat TBT came out.
so, when chat TBT hit the scenes, we were, wouldn't say we were ready.
I don't think anybody in education is ready, was ready for that and what the impacts aregoing to be and what they were instantly on, especially like high school and middle school
(33:50):
English teachers.
but
We're trying to, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and I talk a lot about with,you know, my peers across the country is trying not to make the same mistakes that we made
with social media, with some of these new technologies as they come out, you know, tothink about what is the impact and teach our kids from the beginning.
(34:13):
What is the impact of some of these things and what can they do and how could they be usedinappropriately or, know, in ways that we don't intend or we don't.
want them to be used.
And so, you we're doing a lot of work with that with our kids as we're introducing, youknow, some of these AI technologies into the classroom.
You know, if we're not careful, we have the possibility of having AI make the problemsthat we already have with social media exponentially worse.
(34:46):
And so we really have to be out there in front of everything and say, you know,
make sure when you're looking at this, what is the lens that these answers that are comingback to you are coming from?
What is the training data that was put into this, the training, the bias that was alreadybuilt into the training that you're, these AI, and some of our, there's some really
amazing elementary teachers that are teaching things like algorithms and bias inelementary school so that kids understand the concept before you ever actually put them
(35:15):
even in front of technology.
And we've had a couple of complaints from
parents that have said the kids, know, the third or fourth grader comes home and questionsthem on something they'll have said at dinner.
And they were saying, you know, did you even check to see if this was true or, you know,are you just repeating what you read on social media?
And you know that all those things aren't always true.
(35:35):
And, you know, some parents are, you know, they're a little confused when their kids arecoming home and telling them these things that they're learning.
But it's, you know, it's the work that we have to do because that's, you know, we have tobe ready.
you know, I think
I was just having this conversation this morning with somebody from a university and wewere talking about how we need to be preparing for the fact that AI is going to continue
(36:02):
to grow and grow faster and how it's going to impact our lives and how it's going tochange education.
And we need to make sure that we start out from a solid foundation, instructing our kidson it before it gets too far, too fast and we can't keep up.
Yeah, it sounds like you're really thinking about and starting to emphasize the importanceof digital citizenship, which is something that we've really started to talk about.
(36:29):
I know our superintendent has an interest in rolling out.
kind of a new age digital citizenship type curriculum or courses that would really involveteaching students like the rights and responsibilities of the opportunities of living in a
digital world, teaching them about online etiquette and recognizing the impact of theirdigital footprint and practicing safe and ethical online behavior, like all of those
(36:56):
things have become, I think, so much more critical in finding ways to incorporate that.
into the curriculum at a very young age level is tremendous that some of your teachershave already started to naturally do that.
We'd be curious to reach out to you because you're a little bit further along it soundslike in this area than we are but we'd love to learn more about what you're doing in that
(37:22):
area as you get started.
Yeah, yeah, there's some really great stuff going that, you know, the one I mentioned withthe elementary teachers, we also adopted a new high school ELA curriculum this year.
And it has, it actually has AI literacy fundamentals built into the curriculum now.
So you can start having some of these conversations about some of the things that kidsneed to know, especially as they get a little bit older and looking at, you know, how was
(37:49):
this generated?
How did it, you know, what does it impact on you?
What is, you know,
What is some of the information then in the media that you're being fed and how do youvalidate that that is in fact true or is it exaggerations or if you're talking AI, it a
hallucination that it even exists ever?
yeah, there's some really cool things.
(38:15):
You know, what advice might you have or give to other school districts or educators whoare considering implementing similar policies?
You know, are there any key takeaways or lessons you've learned that you think would bevaluable for others to hear?
(38:36):
yeah, I think.
I did a lot of, you know, I got a lot of questions last year.
The state of Washington was looking at doing a statewide cell phone ban or cell phonerestriction.
And a lot of reporters are reaching out because we were one of the bigger districts thatdid this this year in the state of Washington.
And they would ask me the same question.
(38:56):
And I would say, you know, I really hesitate on these giant statewide bans because thecommunities need to have these conversations themselves first.
Like, and have these conversations with parents, have these conversations with your kids,be able to listen to what the students are saying and be able to adapt and adjust if you
need to based off of the feedback from the parents and the students that you're hearing.
(39:21):
We were really, you know, we don't always do the greatest job of, you know, as much as wewant to listening to the kids and what they have to say about the things that we implement
in schools.
And we really tried to make that a big focus this year.
of getting out and getting into the classrooms, getting kids in and just having them tellus what they think and how they feel.
(39:43):
so that's really it.
think, you know, our buildings that have been the most successful with this are the onesthat have done the work beforehand and had the conversations with teachers, had the
conversations with parents, had the conversations with kids before they ever roll outsomething like this.
And then it makes that so much more.
(40:05):
positive going forward and so much easier to move this along and get it moving forward andmake it successful.
Yeah, I mean it sounds like prioritizing student, parent, community voice is essential,especially prior to any big shift or change in expectations.
(40:25):
And also I heard you say like, need to remain flexible and actively seek feedback to guideour decisions.
Like how are things going?
You know, I think balancing all of those elements is essential and will help set you onthe path of success versus taking a different approach.
appreciate those insights from you.
(40:47):
And just to close us out, Chris, it's been a pleasure having you on the show and learningabout the Peninsula School District's approach to managing technology in the classroom.
Before we go, where can people find you?
Because I know they're gonna wanna reach out to you once they've listened to this podcast.
And we do, by the way, have thousands of listeners now.
(41:09):
Sure, the place I'm at most these days is LinkedIn.
Chris Hegel on LinkedIn, Chris with a K, H -G -E -L on the last name.
That's probably where you'll find me most.
I try and do a little bit of blogging and I do some speaking, but for the most part, anyof that you'll find on my LinkedIn profile.
(41:31):
Awesome, Chris.
Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Thanks so much for taking the time to join us on Elevate Education, and I hope you have atremendous school year ahead of you.
All right, thanks for having me.
All right.
Hey there, welcome back to the Elevate Education Podcast.
I'm your host, Matt Polaro.
As educators, parents, students, and honestly, any person with access to an Apple store,we're constantly faced with technology in our daily lives.
We often have to make decisions about how to interact with it, whether it's helpful or adistraction.
And on today's show, we're joined by Chris Hagel, the Chief Information Officer atPeninsula School District in the beautiful state of Washington.
(00:28):
Welcome, Chris.
With 24 years of experience in K -12 educational technology, Chris is skilled intechnology architecture and a
envisioning solutions to problems that require innovative thinking, leveraging a mix ofbest practices and cutting edge possibilities.
Chris is the perfect guy for this conversation.
And Chris, I've really been looking forward to this episode because we're diving into ahot topic that I think is on a lot of our families, students, communities, minds, and that
(00:58):
is the topic of cell phones in schools.
So as you probably know, in recent years, 11 states have passed laws or enacted
policies that ban restrict students use of cell phones at schools statewide.
The big question here is, are these bans creating a better learning environment for ourstudents or are they inadvertently driving a wedge between students and their schools?
(01:22):
Chris is here to help us unpack all of this.
Welcome to the show, Chris.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So Chris, just to get started for our listeners, could you just tell us a little bit aboutyour district, where you are in Washington, and the students you serve?
Sure.
So the Peninsula School District is in the state of Washington, a medium sized district,about 9 ,000 students.
(01:46):
We're approximately 45 minutes to an hour south of Seattle, right across the NarrowsBridge from Tacoma, Washington.
we are a mix of, you know, kind of, we have a section of our district that's fairlyaffluent and a section of our district that is a little bit more low income.
So we kind of see both of that.
(02:06):
are growing in our
diversity as well here in this area.
you know, it's a, it's a small town sort of feel here, but you know, really close to thebig city in Seattle.
So, yeah, that's kind how we are.
That's awesome.
You know, a lot of people in Jeffco say we're a large district, but we get small realfast.
(02:28):
Really love our community and I'm excited for our community to hear your insights on thistopic in particular.
So I'm gonna jump right in.
know, schools have been integrating various technologies in the classroom like Chromebooksand tablets, AI and so on and so forth for years.
But what sets cell phones apart and makes them particularly tricky to manage from yourperspective?
(02:53):
Sure.
you know, over the years we've all we've been having and particularly after the pandemic,but we've been having a lot of conversations about what we were calling digital wellness.
You know, making sure that our kids are healthy and safely using technology.
But one of the things that we saw when we particularly when we came back out of thepandemic was essentially just a real addiction to the device, the constant notifications,
(03:21):
the constant
pains on their phone, the constant conversations that were going on.
I would stand in the back of a classroom and as the teacher's trying to teach in the classof 30 kids and you got two kids that are really paying attention to her at 28 that are
essentially on their phones looking at the snap that just came in or the text message theyjust got or whatever message that was.
(03:43):
It had become too much for us.
These kids were just struggling mightily with.
how to stay on track and stay on task and not be just completely engrossed by the cellphone.
And that's the business of the big social media companies that are doing a lot of this isthey want your eyeballs.
(04:04):
And so they pay a lot of people a lot of money to make sure that people are constantlylooking at their application and that involves our kids too.
Yeah, and so tell me a little bit about, know, so kids are coming back from the pandemic.
You're noticing some high distractibility with cell phones.
(04:24):
It's getting difficult to manage.
You know, how did you really tackle this issue head on?
Did you, as a school district, completely ban cell phones?
Have you restricted cell phones?
you know, really what, where did that conversation begin?
So it started, we tried to tackle this, like I mentioned just a bit ago, with like a, kindof did a digital wellness initiative, which is talking to kids in school and talking to
(04:52):
parents at parent nights about what is healthy use of digital technology and what isunhealthy use.
And how can you start to regulate yourself and help others regulate themselves as well.
And for the people that would make it to those meetings, it was informative, but.
They still, we would come back six months later and have the same parents at the meetingand they're like, we tried everything that you gave us and nothing is working.
(05:19):
And then teachers in the classroom are having the exact same experiences as well.
They would be doing lessons with kids about how to properly turn off notifications andstay on track and their own personal mental health.
it was just, just, nothing was working.
So our first.
You know, we were trying to figure out what to do as a district and one of our highschools came to us two years ago near the end of the school year.
(05:45):
think that about six or eight weeks left and said, Hey, you know, we just had a staffmeeting with all of our teachers and we have agreed that we want to enforce a cell phone
ban for the last six weeks of school.
I'm not going to say that they can't have them.
They just can't have them out and being distracted by them in the class.
so.
(06:06):
We were hesitant a little bit, I think, because we didn't know how this was going to goover, both with parents and with students.
We were really kind of worried about that.
The high school did a nice job of pulling together their ASB leaders and had thoseconversations and said, you know, what is this?
This is what we want to do.
What do you guys think is going to be the problems?
(06:27):
How do you feel about it?
And, you know, the kids came back and they were like, yeah, let's give it a try.
We realize.
we even realize that there's a problem and something needs to change for us.
so that gave them the power to do that in that building.
then kind of from their experience and then with, you know, we were starting to get a lotof conversations, comments at the school board meetings, the board, you know, continually
(06:52):
hearing from parents saying, guys need to do something, there's problems, you know, somuch cyber bullying going on.
There's so many, you know,
just issues that are taking place and we want you guys to do something.
And so last summer under the direction of our school board, I put together a new boardpolicy that they adopted in July.
(07:12):
Essentially saying cell phones are not allowed in class and in passing periods.
We do call out in the procedure that they could be used before and after school and we'renot gonna be.
searching for kids that have the phone on them.
That wasn't really our goal is to turn into a police state around this, but we just wantto make sure we don't see them.
(07:36):
We don't hear them.
They're not out and being used in the classroom during instruction.
That's really, really what we were going for.
I think that that stance has helped us in a lot of ways.
The kids aren't as hesitant about not having the phone all day because they could stillhave it in their backpack.
(07:57):
Some of our middle schools did decide to go a little bit more strict on that and say, knowwhat, when you get here in the morning, you lock that phone in your locker and you can
have it at the end of the day.
And we're okay with that if that's a decision they want to make.
We kind of set the, we set the basic of, you know, it's not going to be out in theclassroom and how you want to tackle that as a school that we left that up to the schools
(08:18):
to make that decision that it's going to work best for them.
really fascinating.
It sounds like you really, you know...
or community, took the time to get some input and then engaged your board in thedevelopment of a new policy.
And with this new policy in place, what have been some of the noticeable benefits orsuccesses you've observed?
(08:39):
Specifically, I'm wondering how these policies have positively impacted the learningenvironment from a student perspective, but also from an educator perspective.
What has changed?
Yeah, so we started the year really nervous.
This last school year to see what was going to happen, how we hear from parents, but untilyou make a big change like this, you don't hear from all the parents.
(09:07):
And we were worried, what were we going to get as far as pushback and blowback?
I literally, out of our 9 ,000 students, I took three parent phone calls on this newpolicy.
So we were really surprised at that.
Our superintendent and I started going out and meeting with students in October just tosay, hey, you how's this going?
(09:29):
We're, we started getting feedback, you know, anecdotally from principals saying, Hey,this is kind of weird, but we're seeing more kids talk at lunch.
We're seeing kids, even though they could technically have their phones out at lunch,they're not bringing them out.
We're seeing kids in assemblies talking to each other, not just sitting, you know, headdown.
When we go into classrooms, there's more conversation going on.
(09:49):
And that was kind of our
anecdotal evidence from our principals.
And so we wanted to hear from the kids themselves.
And so the superintendent and I started going into some high school classrooms and justsitting down and getting that feedback from them.
the kids were really surprising.
You know, they were they were saying things like, you know, I kind of have ADHD and I'malways distracted and this has really helped.
(10:13):
They were saying things like I'm focusing more on my work in the classroom.
There was a lot of conversation.
amongst the kids about how when they walk into class, they're having more conversationswith the kids around them.
Whereas historically they would walk into class, down at their desk and to hop on theirphone and catch up on their latest Snapchat or Instagram or whatever messages that they
(10:34):
needed to see.
And now because the phones aren't out, they're actually talking to the people around them.
I did a, go ahead.
Yeah.
on that.
You know, I read an article recently where
they had interviewed a group of students about where do they stand on cell phone bansversus cell phone restrictions.
(10:57):
And one school where cell phones had been banned, a student said, what I've noticed aboutthis change is that I'm talking with my peers rather than at them through technology,
which is really fascinating because it sounds like to me some of the benefits that you'venoticed right away is not only an academic benefit,
(11:20):
with like increased focus and engagement but also a social benefit for students.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I did a podcast with one of our middle school principals in the spring of last year.
And she brought up the fact that in her building, the prior year, she had 50, I think 52incidents of cyber bullying that she dealt with in that middle school.
(11:45):
And by April of last year, she had had less than five.
When the cell phones aren't out and they're not around, the
the bullying was going down, she was seeing dramatic reductions in a lot of the bullyingthat she had had in her building, specifically around things that kids were doing online
(12:07):
and cyber bullying.
So there's that piece too that we've really seen a pretty good reduction in.
Yeah, that's incredible.
What are some of the challenges that have come about from this?
Do you notice students feeling bored at school?
I know you mentioned more engaged.
(12:27):
I'm just curious to know what are some of the new behaviors that are reemerging that maybewere present pre -cell phones in school?
Yeah, so we did another focus group with kids.
Our superintendent had her student, superintendent student advisory council, and shebrought them together.
I think it was in November or December of last year.
(12:47):
And we got some really good feedback.
A lot of it mirrored what we had already heard in other classes earlier in the year.
But then there was the kids that were like, you know, there's just not enough to do inclass.
And when I'm finished with all my work, I used to be able to just sit and put myheadphones in and listen to music.
And now I can't do that.
And so don't know, you know,
I don't have anything to do at the end of class every day.
(13:08):
Or, you know, there was conversations or like, I'd really just like to be able to send afew messages here and there.
And, you know, they kind of wanted, some of those kids just wanted a little bit morefreedom and flexibility.
But I think the biggest challenge that we really have encountered and the thing that weheard most from kids at that last superintendent advisory council was it's really hard to
(13:30):
make a global change like this across an entire school district because
getting everyone to do the same thing.
And this is on the adult end, not the kids.
Getting them to enforce it consistently has been a little bit of a challenge.
And so the kids came to us and said, their feedback was, know, we can understand, weunderstand the restrictions, we understand why they're here.
(13:52):
Yes, we'd like some more freedom, but if we don't have the freedom, the least we wouldrequest is that every single staff member enforced it consistently.
They said, you know,
If we go to, if we have five classes that are like no phones, no phones, no phones, andthen we have one teacher, it's like, I don't really care about that rule.
You know, it makes it really hard for them to know, you know, when it's okay and when it'snot okay.
(14:15):
And so, and that's our, that's kind of our big push this year going into the school years.
We just had a meeting with principals on Wednesday and it was, know, we need consistent,consistent enforcement across all the classes.
That's what the parents are asking for.
That's what our kids are asking for.
We just need to do it the same way.
that's really, you know, it's, it's a minuscule amount percentage wise of, know, theclasses that are maybe not enforcing it exactly the same, but I think that's, you know,
(14:42):
that's, that was the one thing that we heard louder than anything from the students wasjust we can understand and we can get behind and deal with all of the restrictions.
We just want to make sure it's the same everywhere.
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
mean, I think, you know, students and humans in general do better with predictability andconsistency and expectations and not being treated differently.
(15:07):
You know, I'm wondering with the
I'm wondering if or how you manage or respond to when students aren't meeting expectationsor are choosing to pull their cell phones out when they're not supposed to.
And have you seen an increase in disciplinary infractions with regards to these new rulesor policies that you've put into place?
(15:34):
you know, it kind of has depended, building by building.
So what we said in our, the procedure that went with our policy is, know, it needs to be agraduate or gradually increasing levels of discipline.
Like if a kid pulls it out, a teacher should just say, you know, put it away the firsttime.
If it happens multiple times and let's send that, take that phone away and they can haveit back at the end of class.
(15:57):
And then, you know, from there, if it continues, then it goes to the principal and theprincipal keeps it.
Kid can have it at the end of the day.
You know, as it keeps going up, the consequences get a little bit stronger, you know, tothe point where the phone gets taken and it doesn't get returned until mom and dad come
and get it.
And there's, gradually kind of step it up from there.
(16:18):
for the most part, I don't think we've seen a, like a system wide overall increase.
have seen in a couple of buildings where, some buildings have really, really tried to, youknow,
be the heavy hand in this and there's a lot more discipline referrals coming from teacherson it.
But I think across the system, it's been a negligible increase.
(16:43):
Let me shift gears a little bit.
You know as educators and leaders, know, part of our responsibility is to model the way,so to speak.
How are your educators and the adults in the building modeling this expectation that wehold of kids to not have their cell phones out in class?
(17:04):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?
We were just having that when we were having the conversation with our building leadersthis week about it.
That was one of the things that they brought up that they knew that they needed to workmore with their teachers on because the teachers still may have their phone in their
pocket and pull it out many times a day or whatever.
(17:26):
it's one of the things that we've, even back before we did the cell phone thing, the cellphone restrictions,
that we were trying to teach adults and teach parents is, know, kids are going to modelthe behavior that they see.
And so if you as a parent or you as an instructor in the classroom are constantlydistracted by the phone, they're going to model that same behavior, whether they see it at
(17:47):
home or see it in the classroom.
so we're working on it.
It's not, it's harder even to change adult behavior than it is to change students in somecases.
And so, but yeah, it's, something we're cognizant of and something our principals aregoing to be.
leading through their work.
We're a district that starts really late in the year.
(18:07):
We start after Labor Day.
And so next week is our big teacher professional development week.
And so our instructional leaders will be working with the teachers on some of those typesof strategies and concepts as they talk about cell phone enforcement this coming year.
Yeah, I was just thinking, like, I know it's a challenge for our students, but it also isprobably a challenge for some of our adults.
(18:30):
I can tell you I've already checked three text messages during this podcast inadvertently.
And so anyways, one question I had too was, I get why.
we would go this direction of putting restrictions in place or even outright banning cellphones.
(18:52):
What were some of the arguments against it?
And did your district think about the possibility of using cell phones as an instructionaltool prior to going the direction of limiting access or restricting access to cell phones
in the classroom?
(19:12):
Yeah, I've been at this for 24 years now in two different districts and I've been incharge of everything instructional and operational in regards to technology for, boy, at
least 12 years here in this district.
I would say most of my entire career was trying, before we did this, was trying toconvince educators to learn strategies to use cell phones productively in classroom and
(19:38):
instruct kids on how to use cell phones productively in the classroom.
We have some teachers that have done some amazing things with it.
But by and large, it has become a classroom management problem more than it's been aninstructional opportunity.
All of our students do have other devices that we provide them.
(19:59):
So they have devices that they can be using, and that's kind of where our teachers focustheir energy is, take the device that the district provides you and let's use it for
instruction.
There's a ton of possibilities with cell phones, but I think the constant notifications,the constant battle with trying to get their attention away from what they have or should
(20:21):
be doing in the classroom is why it just makes it a little bit different.
It sounds like the risk outweighs the reward.
Can I ask with the handful of parents that have reached out to you in opposition or withconcerns or questions about this new policy and its enforcement, what were some of the
(20:44):
challenges they brought to you and how did you go about navigating them or tackling them?
Yeah, I think the most common, and like I said, it hasn't been very many.
We've been completely surprised at the support that our parents have had behind this.
the people that called were people that were really concerned about knowing where theirkid, and it was mostly younger kids.
(21:14):
wasn't the high school kids.
was the kids that may have a phone that...
in an elementary school that their parents use to track the kids so they know where theyare every day or know where they are at all times or be able to reach them at any time.
so I think because we went the route, there's a lot of districts that are pondering theidea of having kids put their cell phones in bags in these pouches so they're unusable
(21:44):
during the school day.
We've kind of resisted that idea and I think it's what's helped us a lot with our parentsis, know, while the kids don't have their phones out in class and they don't have.
real quick access to them.
They do have them at school and can get them, you know, and most kids, I think in most ofour schools, if they're not in a school where the school's decided that they should be in
(22:06):
the lockers, most kids keep them in their backpack.
So in an event of an emergency, which is what, you know, we were really thinking thatparents were going to be most concerned about, the kids have them within a reasonable
distance that they could get to the phone if they needed it.
There's a lot that are kind of safety people in our local law enforcement say,
(22:26):
We really don't want you on your device in an emergency anyway.
So this might not be the worst thing in the world, but we know the comfortability forparents and kids or students to have them if something were to happen is important.
so I think that's what's, that's what's helped us a little bit.
And that's one of the things that council other districts when I I've taken a lot of callsfrom people all over the country this year on, you know, how did you do it?
(22:50):
What did you do and what's worked well and what hasn't.
And one of the things I say is because we didn't go the
completely difficult route of putting them in bags or having them in pouches or locked upin lockers in most cases.
Parents have been pretty tolerant because they haven't worried as much about the safety.
(23:10):
really comes from a, the parents that are concerned, comes from a worry about what happensif something bad happens at school.
Whether it's, I was just gonna say, and it's not always, we're in Washington, earthquakesare a thing here.
And statistically, probably more likely than many other things to happen to our kidsduring the school day.
(23:32):
so, you know, being able to reach your kids if something bad were to happen, that's theparent's big concern.
Yeah, it sounds like you with your policy and an approach to management rather thanbanment or banning.
it sounds like you've found just the right balance where students still have the abilityto communicate with their parents or guardians or whatever the case might be throughout
(23:58):
the day, whether that's just checking in or if an emergency situation does come up, theyhave the ability to get in touch with their families.
But ultimately, it sounds like you've given families kind of the...
peace of mind that they need tied back to their concerns about students or their kids nothaving access to their cell phones during the school day.
(24:23):
So I applaud you for that.
That's definitely one of the biggest concerns that I hear from our families as we talkabout this topic.
You know, have you noticed yet any increase in like academic performance in terms of likethe achievement and growth outcomes of your school district that you can tie back to?
(24:46):
this implementation of phone restrictions.
Yeah, it's so hard.
I was having another conversation with somebody this morning because our district'sactually doing a lot with artificial intelligence as well right now.
So it's kind of this weird dichotomy of, you know, getting rid of cell phones, but alsopushing forward quickly on AI.
And it's really hard.
You know, we have three or four big initiatives across our entire district and it's reallyhard to tie any of any one of them to increases in academic performance.
(25:16):
The one thing that we are seeing an uptick on so
You know, we have our strategic academic goals, but we also have a strategic goal aroundstudent sense of belonging in school.
And so we measure that three times a year, I believe.
And for years, we've been flatlining kind of across all of our schools on student sense ofbelonging.
(25:39):
you know, it's really been something that we've been trying to move the needle on and it'sfinally moving this year for the first time in five or six years.
And I think
That's one place where we're starting to see some movement.
It's really hard to tie some of the like our literacy numbers or our math numbers becausewe have, you know, we have a huge focus on UDL.
(26:00):
We have a huge focus on early literacy.
so just cell phones and tying cell phones by themselves to being the contributing factorare kind of hard.
But I think the one place that we can, we've seen increases in our sense of belongingdata.
And that's, you know, I think we can reliably assume that that is in response to the cellphone.
restrictions.
(26:20):
That is very interesting.
Now, do you think that is attributed to students being in an environment that lends itselfto greater collaboration and person to person, student to student interactions because
(26:40):
their phone's not available in the classroom and they're therefore developing deeperrelationships than maybe they had?
before this phone restriction.
Yeah, I think that's absolutely the case.
mean, you when you do the, when the kids do their survey about their self assessment onsense of belonging, you know, it asks questions like, is there a student that you think
(27:05):
feels like they care about you at school?
Is there an adult that you think cares about you at school?
You know, how do you, and it's questions like that.
And so the fact that those numbers are moving means that kids have, something is changingfor them.
And I think a lot of that, I, you know, this is
Our belief is that a lot of that is due to the fact that kids are finally going back totalking to each other more and having more conversations and getting to know the kids in
(27:29):
class a little bit better than just, you know, who they are as a person on social media orwho they are as a person, you know, that they see through their phone and that's their
interaction instead of, you they're a person that I sit next to in my classroom and Iactually talk about things that are important to me.
Yeah, I mean, I could see how reducing phone distractions can create opportunities forstudents to like engage with one another, like strengthening their social bonds and kind
(27:57):
of sense a community in the classroom.
That's, that is really, really sweet.
And is that an outcome that you expected or is that a surprise that showed up in your datathat you had this aha moment and connected it back to this work?
It was an outcome we hoped for.
(28:17):
Like I mentioned, we've struggled for quite a while moving the needle on our sense ofbelonging.
And we've been trying a of different tactics in a lot of different buildings.
And we were really not making a huge amount of progress on that.
And so it was one of the things that we were really trying to keep an eye on was what asense of belonging looked like this year as the numbers were starting to come through.
(28:40):
so, yeah, we've been pleasantly surprised to see that that actually did work out.
Yeah, and something you had mentioned earlier when you were kind of sharing thecomposition of your school district having some more affluent communities and some more
communities that face socioeconomic challenges.
(29:02):
I'm wondering too for families or students that don't have the latest technology or feelcomfortable using their phones in social settings, like how this has
leveled the playing field for them and whether or not you're seeing a greater sense ofbelonging with some of our students who previously had reported not feeling a sense of
(29:27):
community, but also who fall into that category of students who maybe aresocioeconomically disadvantaged.
Yeah, think I definitely think there's something there.
There's another thing that kind of surprised me this year a little bit.
What kind of along the same lines is we've been doing a lot with helping parents for yearson talking about the impact of social media on their kids.
(29:58):
And so we did a parent night.
We did a few parent nights and we showed a documentary called like.
this last year and it was about social media addiction essentially.
And in the conversations afterwards, we would always have conversations with the parentsand a lot of them would come back and say, you I had so much pressure from my kid, I have
(30:21):
to have a phone, I have to have a phone, I have to have a phone, everybody else has aphone.
And these parents were trying to hold out, you know, the more that they're starting tolearn about when is the appropriate age for students to start getting a cell phone.
parents were trying to get farther and farther down as kids get older and older.
And some parents were even trying to hold the line and say, no cell phones until highschool or no cell phones until late middle school.
(30:47):
And so many of them had admitted that with their younger kids, it just collapsed becauseof the pressure that they were constantly having from their kid every single day.
Everybody else has a phone.
Everybody else has a phone.
I'm the only one that doesn't have a phone.
You're making me the outcast.
And now,
Some of these parents with their younger kids are saying, they're just not asking as much.
(31:09):
When everybody doesn't have a phone out while they're sitting at the lunch table andeverybody doesn't have a phone out in class every day, the pressure isn't there.
And so these kids aren't as worried about, do I have a phone or not?
Especially in the sixth, seventh, eighth grade years in middle school, where parents arestill trying to hold that line and trying to go as long as possible without giving their
(31:30):
kids the phones.
Yeah, I I imagine that really kind of.
ensures that no one feels excluded based on their access to the latest and greatesttechnology or any technology at all and kind of breaks down some of those social
hierarchies that Are most important or start to develop at those middle school high schoolyears?
(31:53):
You know, I want to go back to this social media piece too and just ask you know withstudents having limited access to their phone during the school day meaning they have
limited access to social media and just knowing that
social media has emerged as kind of a contributing factor to mental health or having anadverse impact on mental health.
(32:18):
What have you noticed around some of those mental health kind of outcomes?
Are you seeing students reporting you know a lower sense of anxiety and stress or are youtracking any of that kind of data?
What are some of the things that you've saw in that area?
We're not tracking it explicitly.
(32:39):
I don't have real great data to share on that.
I have the belief that it's improving, but we don't have anything really quantitative toshow on that one.
Yeah, yeah, I was just curious if that was something that you were measuring or has beenan unintended kind of outcome of the approach that you've all taken.
(33:06):
So shifting gears again a little bit, technology is constantly evolving.
How does your district plan to stay ahead of the curve and adapt its policies as newtechnologies emerge?
I know you mentioned AI.
I'm really curious about what you have in the works there.
Yeah.
So we've been, we've been a district that's embraced AI from its outset.
(33:29):
think we had teachers going through AI training, even before chat TBT came out.
so, when chat TBT hit the scenes, we were, wouldn't say we were ready.
I don't think anybody in education is ready, was ready for that and what the impacts aregoing to be and what they were instantly on, especially like high school and middle school
(33:50):
English teachers.
but
We're trying to, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and I talk a lot about with,you know, my peers across the country is trying not to make the same mistakes that we made
with social media, with some of these new technologies as they come out, you know, tothink about what is the impact and teach our kids from the beginning.
(34:13):
What is the impact of some of these things and what can they do and how could they be usedinappropriately or, know, in ways that we don't intend or we don't.
want them to be used.
And so, you we're doing a lot of work with that with our kids as we're introducing, youknow, some of these AI technologies into the classroom.
You know, if we're not careful, we have the possibility of having AI make the problemsthat we already have with social media exponentially worse.
(34:46):
And so we really have to be out there in front of everything and say, you know,
make sure when you're looking at this, what is the lens that these answers that are comingback to you are coming from?
What is the training data that was put into this, the training, the bias that was alreadybuilt into the training that you're, these AI, and some of our, there's some really
amazing elementary teachers that are teaching things like algorithms and bias inelementary school so that kids understand the concept before you ever actually put them
(35:15):
even in front of technology.
And we've had a couple of complaints from
parents that have said the kids, know, the third or fourth grader comes home and questionsthem on something they'll have said at dinner.
And they were saying, you know, did you even check to see if this was true or, you know,are you just repeating what you read on social media?
And you know that all those things aren't always true.
(35:35):
And, you know, some parents are, you know, they're a little confused when their kids arecoming home and telling them these things that they're learning.
But it's, you know, it's the work that we have to do because that's, you know, we have tobe ready.
you know, I think
I was just having this conversation this morning with somebody from a university and wewere talking about how we need to be preparing for the fact that AI is going to continue
(36:02):
to grow and grow faster and how it's going to impact our lives and how it's going tochange education.
And we need to make sure that we start out from a solid foundation, instructing our kidson it before it gets too far, too fast and we can't keep up.
Yeah, it sounds like you're really thinking about and starting to emphasize the importanceof digital citizenship, which is something that we've really started to talk about.
(36:29):
I know our superintendent has an interest in rolling out.
kind of a new age digital citizenship type curriculum or courses that would really involveteaching students like the rights and responsibilities of the opportunities of living in a
digital world, teaching them about online etiquette and recognizing the impact of theirdigital footprint and practicing safe and ethical online behavior, like all of those
(36:56):
things have become, I think, so much more critical in finding ways to incorporate that.
into the curriculum at a very young age level is tremendous that some of your teachershave already started to naturally do that.
We'd be curious to reach out to you because you're a little bit further along it soundslike in this area than we are but we'd love to learn more about what you're doing in that
(37:22):
area as you get started.
Yeah, yeah, there's some really great stuff going that, you know, the one I mentioned withthe elementary teachers, we also adopted a new high school ELA curriculum this year.
And it has, it actually has AI literacy fundamentals built into the curriculum now.
So you can start having some of these conversations about some of the things that kidsneed to know, especially as they get a little bit older and looking at, you know, how was
(37:49):
this generated?
How did it, you know, what does it impact on you?
What is, you know,
What is some of the information then in the media that you're being fed and how do youvalidate that that is in fact true or is it exaggerations or if you're talking AI, it a
hallucination that it even exists ever?
yeah, there's some really cool things.
(38:15):
You know, what advice might you have or give to other school districts or educators whoare considering implementing similar policies?
You know, are there any key takeaways or lessons you've learned that you think would bevaluable for others to hear?
(38:36):
yeah, I think.
I did a lot of, you know, I got a lot of questions last year.
The state of Washington was looking at doing a statewide cell phone ban or cell phonerestriction.
And a lot of reporters are reaching out because we were one of the bigger districts thatdid this this year in the state of Washington.
And they would ask me the same question.
(38:56):
And I would say, you know, I really hesitate on these giant statewide bans because thecommunities need to have these conversations themselves first.
Like, and have these conversations with parents, have these conversations with your kids,be able to listen to what the students are saying and be able to adapt and adjust if you
need to based off of the feedback from the parents and the students that you're hearing.
(39:21):
We were really, you know, we don't always do the greatest job of, you know, as much as wewant to listening to the kids and what they have to say about the things that we implement
in schools.
And we really tried to make that a big focus this year.
of getting out and getting into the classrooms, getting kids in and just having them tellus what they think and how they feel.
(39:43):
so that's really it.
think, you know, our buildings that have been the most successful with this are the onesthat have done the work beforehand and had the conversations with teachers, had the
conversations with parents, had the conversations with kids before they ever roll outsomething like this.
And then it makes that so much more.
(40:05):
positive going forward and so much easier to move this along and get it moving forward andmake it successful.
Yeah, I mean it sounds like prioritizing student, parent, community voice is essential,especially prior to any big shift or change in expectations.
(40:25):
And also I heard you say like, need to remain flexible and actively seek feedback to guideour decisions.
Like how are things going?
You know, I think balancing all of those elements is essential and will help set you onthe path of success versus taking a different approach.
appreciate those insights from you.
(40:47):
And just to close us out, Chris, it's been a pleasure having you on the show and learningabout the Peninsula School District's approach to managing technology in the classroom.
Before we go, where can people find you?
Because I know they're gonna wanna reach out to you once they've listened to this podcast.
And we do, by the way, have thousands of listeners now.
(41:09):
Sure, the place I'm at most these days is LinkedIn.
Chris Hegel on LinkedIn, Chris with a K, H -G -E -L on the last name.
That's probably where you'll find me most.
I try and do a little bit of blogging and I do some speaking, but for the most part, anyof that you'll find on my LinkedIn profile.
(41:31):
Awesome, Chris.
Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Thanks so much for taking the time to join us on Elevate Education, and I hope you have atremendous school year ahead of you.
All right, thanks for having me.
All right.
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