July 17, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever looked around your workplace and thought, "There must be a better way"? In this transformative conversation with Dr. Christie McMullen, we uncover how joy and productivity work as essential allies rather than opposing forces.
Dr. McMullen brings her 25 years of education experience into the business world with a refreshingly simple framework that makes every workplace interaction safe, logical, fun, and memorable. She explains how psychological safety forms the foundation for everything else—when people feel truly seen and valued, they bring their best selves to work. Through her engaging personality assessment (which reveals whether you are a paperclip, magnifying glass, teddy bear, or slinky), she demonstrates how understanding your team's natural strengths fosters harmony rather than friction.
The conversation takes a decisive turn when we explore why so many workplaces feel joyless. "People quit things that aren't fun," Christie notes, whether through actual resignation or just mentally checking out. Her perspective challenges the notion that work must be endured rather than enjoyed, offering practical strategies for leaders to create environments where people genuinely want to contribute. We discuss the warning signs of quiet quitting and how self-aware leadership can prevent team burnout.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is the balance of spiritual wisdom with practical application. We explore how the biblical concept of being called to "build our own section of the wall" applies to modern workplace dynamics and how shifting from an "I have to" mindset to an "I get to" perspective transforms our relationship with work.
Whether you lead a team of two or two hundred, this conversation will equip you with actionable insights to create a workplace culture where people thrive. Ready to make your workplace interactions more intentional, engaging, and productive? This episode is your blueprint for getting started.
Want to learn more? You can purchase Dr.Christie McMullen's book, 'Make Work Fun So People Don't Quit: How To Hit Your Target In Business And Life': https://www.amazon.com/Make-Work-People-Dont-Quit/dp/B0DF5CJWNL?ref_=ast_author_dp&th=1&psc=1
Connect with Dr. Christie McMullen:
Website: aimwithus.com
Instagram: @drchristiemcmullen
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey friends, welcome back to Entrusted to Lead.
I'm your host, danita Cummins,and today we're diving into a
conversation that's asrefreshing as it is
transformational.
If you've ever looked aroundyour workplace and thought, man,
there has got to be more joythan this, then this episode is
totally for you.
I am joined by the dynamic andinsightful Dr Christy McMullen
bestselling author, educatorturned entrepreneur and host of
(00:26):
the Productive Joy podcast.
She is on a mission to teachleaders how to make every
workplace interaction safe,logical, fun and memorable.
Yes, you heard that right Funand productive.
And, believe it or not, sheuses stickers to prove it.
We're going to unpack how joyand productivity are not enemies
but essential allies.
(00:47):
Whether you lead a business, achurch, a nonprofit, we are
going to unpack how joy andproductivity are not enemies but
essential allies.
So, whether you lead a business, church or nonprofit, today's
conversation is going to changeyour perspective, inspire fresh
ideas and give you tools thatyou can actually use, because we
love that.
So grab your cup of coffee oryour favorite scratch and sniff
(01:09):
stickers and let's get started.
Leadership can feel really heavysometimes, especially when
you're carrying vision andpeople and purpose all on your
shoulders all at the same time.
You have got a big mission, butthe strategy feels fuzzy and
your team is looking at you forclarity that you're not sure you
(01:30):
actually have.
I get it.
It's hard.
I'm Danita Cummins.
I help faith-driven leaderslike you find clarity, align
with your values and lead withconfidence, without burning out,
because that's never okay.
If you're ready to get unstuck,lead your team with courage and
to turn that God-given visioninto a strategy that really
works.
I want us to talk.
(01:51):
Take the free leadershipclarity quiz that I've created
today and I want you to scheduleyour no-pressure coaching call
because together we can uncoverwhat's holding you back and how
to move forward in faith andconfidence.
Hey friends, welcome toEntrusted to Lead.
(02:11):
I'm Danita, and today I'm superexcited to be joined by my new
friend, dr Christy McMullin.
She is a bestselling author and25-year educator turned
entrepreneur, which we love.
Super adventurous and she ishere to talk about how she can
help you make work fun.
She's also the host of theProductive Joy podcast it's a
shameless plug, so please gocheck it out.
And we met last year, yes, whenshe let me come on the show
(02:32):
very graciously to talk about mybook, and so she's here today
to return the favor, so we'resuper excited to have her join
us.
Christy, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
today.
I am so good.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
I think we're going to have agood time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I think it'll be fun.
Pun intended, right.
No pun intended, that's exactlyright.
So do you want to tell everyonea little bit about how you got
to be on this entrepreneurjourney today?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure.
So as an educator I don't knowif you know any educators, but
educators are really good at awhole lot of things and what
happened is I shifted out of theclassroom and into teaching
teachers, which is the thing andwhat I realized is that my
niche, my space, is actuallyteaching adults, and so for the
last 19 years or so, that'sexactly what I've been doing,
(03:15):
and what I also realized is that, although I was in the
education space, every businessperson on the planet is teaching
people things all day long, butthey haven't been taught how,
and so they do 900 slidePowerPoints with a thousand
words per page, and they talk atpeople instead of with people.
And so I thought wonder whatwould happen if I took what I
(03:37):
learned in that education spaceand turned it into a business
thing?
And I've found that, first ofall, adults love stickers and
they most definitely need what Ihave in terms of a set of
skills that can translate intoany business to make every
interaction safe, logical, funand memorable.
So I'm having a blast doingthat with nurses and Medicare
(04:00):
workers and mortgage brokers andreal estate agents and all of
everybody in between, and reallyhaving some fun.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Wow, that's super cool.
So in these differentindustries that you're a part of
because you're getting to seebehind the scenes of what the
culture really looks like andthe real no kidding kind of down
in the nitty gritty detailshave you found kind of like a
common theme of things orframework that really allows
what do thriving workplaces havelike in common, regardless of
(04:27):
the sector?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh, such a good question.
So the thing that they have incommon is that their people feel
valued and appreciated.
When I say that I make work fun, my definition of fun is that
people feel valued andappreciated, that they have a
voice and that they're allowedto use it and they're able to
leverage their talents for thegreater good of the organization
.
You can't do any of that unlessyou know your people.
So the places that are thrivingare the places where people
(04:52):
actually belong, instead ofassuming that they belong.
So people know their role, theyknow how to execute their role
and they know that those withthem and above them are going to
make it safe for them to makemistakes and ask questions,
because if those things aren'tin place, nothing else works,
and that's why people quit right.
Whether it's quiet quitting orreal quitting, people quit
(05:14):
things that aren't fun.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Have you found, with your teaching, certain models or
, I guess, tools that reallyhelp to create those things we
like to say that we have those,I guess, in organizations all
the time, right, as leaders,we're like, no, I create a place
that's safe or whatever, butyou're behind the scenes like,
no, actually really it's notvery good.
So have you found some specifictools to help people really
(05:36):
kind of hone in and see ifthey're actually creating those
and then how to adjust theirorganizations?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yes.
So I got certified inpsychological safety a couple
years back and so there is asurvey that you can give.
That kind of peels back theonion a little of the places
that it's not psychologicallysafe.
So that's one way that I can goin and help people understand
what they should be doing.
Another thing that I do that isactually a ton of fun and
really eye-opening is I helporganizations figure out what
(06:05):
personalities are at play.
So there are so manypersonality tests you can do and
Myers-Briggs and Berkman andEnneagram all of those that
require a test and are prettyheavy.
I actually do one that's prettysimple, that doesn't require a
test and it's you are either apaperclip, a magnified glass, a
teddy bear or a slinky, and sowe talk about those four
(06:26):
personality types and how theyshow up in the workplace, but
then we analyze the people inthe room to figure out well,
okay, if I'm a paperclip, whatare my superpowers and how do
those show up in the workplace?
And then how can I create adiversified group so that I do
also have a magnifying glass,slinky and a teddy bear near me,
because if I don't, then I losepeople.
So those are the two tools thatI typically lead with and then,
(06:49):
after they have gotten excitedabout those things, we talk
about creating productive joyand how you do that in the
workplace, because joy is achoice and you can't manifest it
.
People have to choose it.
So what are you doing in theworkplace that creates that safe
, logical, fun, memorable placewhere people can produce joy?
I don't have a wand.
(07:09):
Actually, that's not true.
I say this a lot.
I do have a dollar store wand.
Here is my wand.
It doesn't hold any magicalpowers, but my wand, if I had
one that worked, would be ableto be waved over organizations
and say, all right, everybodyfeels valued and appreciated,
everybody is loved here,everybody is safe.
Unfortunately, not all leadersare equipped with those talents
(07:31):
and you can't ask people tobecome something they're not.
But you can give them tools andteach them how to use those
tools.
And that's really what I'mdoing is giving people tools and
saying, all right, so of thesefour things safe, logical, fun
and memorable and I can explainthis if you want.
But of the four, which one am Ireally good at and where do I
need some help?
People don't necessarily needto be experts in all four, but
(07:53):
they do need to have peoplearound them that are, so that
they're not getting stuck allthe time.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, that's really good.
Do you want to explain that alittle bit more?
You said safe logical fun andmemorable.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So this was where my research 25 years of educating
humans came in, and I knew Iwanted to write a book after I
finished my doctorate, butwasn't a hundred percent sure
what that would look like.
And so my book is calledLearning Can Stick, and it is
how to make every interactionsafe, logical, fun and memorable
.
Safe means not physically safe,although that's important I
don't want you to trip over achair but I also want it to be
psychologically safe.
So do people know that they canask questions, that they can
(08:28):
make mistakes, that you are notgoing to punish them for not
knowing something?
And do you know their names?
Do you know their dog's names?
Do you know that they have kids, or that they don't want kids,
or that their mom is sick orwhatever it is?
Do you, first and foremost,approach people from that place
of I see you, I know you and youmatter.
If we don't make it safe, noneof the rest of it matters.
(08:49):
You might as well just stopright.
So that's first, logical meansyou have a plan, you stick to
the plan, but you're not theonly one who knows the plan.
So frequently we'll call ameeting and we'll say I need you
in my office in an hour andmost people for that hour panic
because they don't know what themeeting's about.
They don't.
I'm not getting hired, fired,getting a raise under punishment
(09:10):
.
What if, instead, you said Ineed you in my office in an hour
?
It's to talk about the Smiths,because the Smiths are coming in
at two and I know you are thepoint person on that project.
Can you give me a rundown ofwhat that is?
Now I can spend that hour, well, right.
And then do you end on time,right?
So if this is supposed to lastan hour, does it last an hour or
(09:31):
does it last six?
Because I don't have six togive you, but I have one, right?
It's like that text messagethat we all dread.
Can we talk?
Oh my gosh.
Okay, first of all, how long isthis going to take and what in
the world do you want to talkabout?
So the logical part is reallythinking through giving
everybody else the script toyour movie instead of holding
onto it too tightly.
So the other part of logical,too, is recognizing that a one
(09:53):
pager goes a long way.
So if you're going to have ameeting telling people, here are
the three things we're going totalk about in this meeting,
instead of everything being asecret and you being the holder
of all the information.
That's not logical either.
So helping leaders understandwhat all that should look like.
And then fun.
Fun's my favorite.
I wasn't kidding, I do givescratch and sniff stickers to
adults.
I have been giving scratch andsniff stickers.
(10:14):
So it started in my high schoolclassroom.
I taught all these differentsciences in high school.
Then, when I started teachingadults, I was like I wonder if
they would like stickers too.
It is unreal how much grownhumans love a good sticker, and
it has a lot of things.
I've done a lot of research onthis, to the tune of probably
10,000 stickers given, if I hadto guess.
So when you approach somebodyand I do this at conferences and
(10:38):
wherever I'm meeting people andI'll say, do you want
peppermint or chocolate orstrawberry?
And they're like what?
They get so excited and somepeople decide right away and
other people are like thank you.
And so what I've found is I cancount, on one hand, the number
of people who said no, thank you, because I'm giving you
something for nothing, right?
It's that fun factor.
(11:02):
Our brain only fires neuronswhen there's some sort of
emotion tied to what we're doing.
That's why we remember thetragic things and the exciting
things, right?
So where were you on September11th of 2001?
We all know exactly whathappened that day.
I also know exactly whathappened on June 12th of 1999.
And most people can probablysay well, I brushed my teeth
right, like that's about it.
That's the day I got married.
So these are the things thathave burned into our brains.
Well, if we're having a meetingwhere everybody needs to be
(11:24):
involved and we don't bring thefun, unfortunately I was really
excited about it, but I didn'tmake you excited about it.
So you forgot everything and Iremembered everything, and
that's a problem.
So how do you make it fun?
How do you make people laugh?
How do you make people feelseen and excited?
And then, last but not least,memorable.
So this one, I think, isprobably the most lost art, and
(11:45):
that's that you can't be a oneand done.
If you say something tosomebody once, you can't assume
that they're going to rememberit for life.
We can be memorable humans, butwhat are you doing to
intentionally be memorable?
And that's that circle back,that's that opportunity to have
the conversation more than once.
So I like to say you have tosprinkle, splash, flood, drip,
drip, drip information.
(12:05):
So I'm from Florida and inFlorida it rains really, really
hard and right before it's goingto rain really really hard,
there are very large drops ofwater that hit your windshield.
Well, that's the sprinklesplash.
Right, you know you should takecover.
So that's the email before themeeting that says here are the
three things we're going tocover in this meeting.
Come with X, right?
So that's like a preview.
(12:26):
Then the flood is the meeting,is the training, is the event
where you get all theinformation, which sounds
wonderful, except that we losemost of that information, that
water in runoff, so we have todrip, drip, drip.
After that, the drip, drip,drip is the follow-up email that
says here are the three thingswe covered and here's who will
do what by when.
Or the phone call afterwardsthat says hey, we had that big
(12:47):
meeting and I gave you a wholelot of tasks, are you feeling
okay about that?
Or, a month later, circlingback and saying can we check in
on progress, what we tend to dois flood, flood, flood, and it
just doesn't work.
So that's the concept that Iteach, and I teach it to sales
teams when they're doing a pitchor to leadership teams when
they're trying to get cohesionon something, because,
(13:09):
ultimately, if you don't dothose four things, people just
shut down.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That's so good.
I love that and the way thatyou've simplified it, like
you're saying where it's rootedin all of this research and all
of this data, I'm sure with allof your background as an
educator and, like you said,your doctorate and a book, so
that's not taken lightly.
But I love the fact that you'relike anybody can do this.
Let's just start today withwhere we are.
I feel like we get sooverwhelmed by the mountain in
(13:33):
front of us that we don't everstart.
We're like, oh, that's reallybig and so I'm just going to sit
over here and completely justnot do anything.
But I love the way that you'vebroken it out, so that's really
good.
So then you go through and yousay, okay, here are the four
pieces.
And then you sit down witheveryone and you had mentioned
earlier to like see which oneyou're good at and which one you
need help with.
And then do you do that, Iguess, with teams, where they
(13:53):
get to like kind of in the group, talk about it or work through
it or whatever, so that they canbuild cohesion in the team.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes.
So one of my favoriteopportunities happened with a
group that had just beenacquired by another group.
So now we have the leaders fromboth groups in the room and
they hadn't built systems yet.
They hadn't decided whichpolicies were going to be what.
They hadn't had the opportunitybecause they'd only been
acquired, let's say, two monthsbefore.
So this was the first time theywere all in the room together.
We started with personalitiesand they learned if they were a
(14:21):
slinky paperclip, teddy bear ora magnifying glass, and once
they knew that they had a commonlanguage and they could say
okay, so our magnifying glasses?
They tend to zoom in on thedetails, right.
They're task people who getstuff done.
If you have a magnifying glass,they're probably your leader.
Your paperclips are very linearin how they think.
They probably built the to-dolist that the magnifying glass
(14:42):
is accomplishing and they liketo hold things together.
They're very clear with steps.
Probably have a color-codedsock drawer kind of people,
right.
Then we have our teddy bears.
Our teddy bears are veryconcerned with how people feel.
So when was the last time youtook a break?
Oh, how's your daughterChecking in on the human side of
things?
And then you have your slinkies, your slinkies are fun, right,
(15:02):
because slinkies, your slinkiesare fun, right, because slinkies
are fun, but they're a littleall over the place.
They're the big idea people whogo what if we did this thing?
And oh my gosh, but a slinkyneeds a paperclip in their life
to actually accomplish saidthing.
They definitely need somebodyto hold them together.
So once they knew that, now inthe room, they knew who should
be sitting with who, oh my gosh,the accounting department has
(15:25):
only paperclips and nomagnifying glasses, like
nobody's a teddy bear.
So what do we do, right?
I'm not saying that accountantsaren't touchy-feely, I'm just
saying, stereotypically, right.
So once they knew that and theyknew the people in the room,
then we went into safe, logical,fun and memorable and what that
could mean.
But it didn't stop there.
So my drip, drip, drip was okay.
(15:50):
So let me expose you to all ofthis and give you a task.
I need you to create a meeting,a summit, whatever you're going
to do with your team, and Ineed you to incorporate these
four things into that experience.
I'll be back in a month andwhen I come back, let's talk
about how that went.
So what happened is?
They tried it and when theytried it.
Their other task was to talk tosomebody else who had tried it
and see how it went, and theconversations were rich, right?
Okay, so we need to figure outwhich policy we're going to use
(16:12):
for travel with this new company.
How do we do that, I don't know.
Okay, well, let's create ameeting where everybody gives
input, etc, etc.
So when I came back the secondtime, they were very full of
questions.
They were like okay, so yousaid logical, but I don't know
exactly what you mean by that.
How can I make this morelogical?
So when I work with teams, it'svery catered to, right, like
(16:34):
it's very for the needs of thatparticular organization in that
space.
But this transcends anything,right?
So you have adult children.
I have adult children.
When we're talking to them, ifwe're not safe, logical, fun and
memorable, that's a problem.
Our spouses?
I don't think that we weredesigned to not be those four
things.
And it's not rocket science,like you said.
It's simple and that's bydesign.
(16:56):
But that doesn't make it easy.
So it might be easy for me tomake it safe, because I'm a very
personable and I make peoplefeel comfortable, but the
logical, like nobody can get inhere and see what I'm thinking,
and so I tend to make peoplefeel stressed.
So what do I do about that?
So that's kind of how it allcomes together, especially with
the group, and that drip, drip,drip makes it actually stick.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, I think that's really good.
That's so helpful.
I was in an organization mylast corporate America job
before I started my entrepreneurjourney and it was very much
that it was a company that hadmerged.
It was six companies basicallybecause they had done all of
these mergers and acquisitionsand at the time I came in we had
an office that was local hereand then the headquarters, which
was another company inCalifornia.
(17:37):
So you've got two sides of thecountry.
You have completely differentteams and they were two
companies that merged into one,and so the headquarters office,
for example, was all inCalifornia and so all of those
HR director finance they wereall from company A and company B
was like that's not how we doit.
It was such a challenging timeand there wasn't a lot of the
(18:02):
psychological safety piece of itwhen just the safe part,
because you're like my policydoesn't say that and they're
like we'll just do the policythat here's our policy, and then
you get it and you're like wedon't even have those policies.
This company has never done itlike this before.
So I think that's such a greatexample that you give with like
just leading change in anorganization which is a
framework.
That's what I tell people.
I'm like leading changesframework.
(18:23):
Everything has a model to it ifwe look at it from that
perspective, and so I think it'ssuper helpful that you're doing
that.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I love the example that you gave of okay.
So these people all came fromcompany A.
This is how we do it.
These people are from company Bgoing no.
No, that's not.
Both points are valid, but thereisn't a space where both points
can be heard.
There might be a very validreason why you keep group A's
way of work and, as humans, wewill only do things if we
(18:53):
understand why.
So if you are not making thatwhy clear, then you're just
telling me this is the way we'regoing to do it.
I'm going to buck the systemevery time, but if you take the
time to say here's why we'redoing this, this is the
repercussions if we don't.
This is what we've thoughtabout.
This is why we ever.
What would you add?
It's a fully differentsituation because it is a better
(19:15):
way.
Now do I have to change andlearn that change?
Yes, but you just made itsomething that I want to do
versus something I'm told to do,and we're just not good as
adult humans and I say adultloosely as humans, we're not
real good with that's because Isaid so that's exactly true.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, there's some antibody in there already.
That's just the natural pushingback on things that makes sense
.
So how do you respond toleaders who may feel like that
joy and productivity are at oddswith each other?
What do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Good question.
Sometimes I'm as blunt assaying all right, so people do
quit things that aren't fun.
You don't go to a movie asecond time if you didn't like
it the first time, and youcertainly don't go back out on a
date with somebody that youwere just fully bored with.
But you're asking people tocome to work every day to a
place that they hate, that theyfind to be miserable.
That's sucking the life out ofthem and you expect them to show
(20:04):
up.
Well, not going to happen.
So I do use a lot of the brainresearch around the happiness
advantage as an example.
There has been a ton ofresearch done by Harvard that
says that happy people are moreproductive people.
But I don't know somewherealong the way and I don't know
if it's generational or not, butsomewhere along the way we said
work, play.
(20:25):
We forget that those two thingscan actually happen in tandem.
So my plight to get productivejoy to be something that
everybody's thinking about isreally centered around.
If we don't, then we better beready for mediocrity.
You can't create great thingsif you are not passionately
excited about the thing thatyou're doing.
(20:46):
Now am I going to bepassionately excited about every
project I get at work?
No, but do I have people therethat I can laugh with in the
process?
Yes, do I have a team that Itrust, that trust me, that
believe in me and are letting medo the things that I'm good at?
Yes, that is fun.
So, going back to my definitionvalued and appreciated Do I
ever hear thank you?
Right, that's fun.
(21:06):
That's productivity and joy atwork.
Do people say you know what?
You are so well equipped to dothis thing that I'm going to let
you do this thing.
That's fun.
It's fun to have a voice.
So my least favorite thing onthe planet is when you survey
your team and then you do ityour way anyway and you never
give anybody who gave feedbackany explanation as to where
(21:29):
their feedback went.
Like it went into the circularfiling cabinet, aka trunk.
I'm not saying take every ideathat your team comes up with,
because they won't all be great,but is there a space for it?
And do people know why youdidn't go with their idea?
That's fun.
And then it's fun when you knowme well enough to know that as
the slinky, I should be at thetable when we're trying to come
(21:50):
up with new ideas and as thepaperclip.
I should be responsible for thetimeline and the project
management and the spreadsheetthat goes with it.
And as the magnifying glass putme in charge, darn it.
Like I am good at it, let meget stuff done.
And then the teddy bear is, Ithink, the least utilized person
and the most important.
Does anybody feel comfortablein this space?
(22:10):
Has anybody checked in with theteam and said I am holding up
right?
All these things have changed.
Are you okay, so thatleveraging your talents is also
fun?
Your original question wasproductivity and joy.
How do those come together?
If they don't, you will loseyour best people period.
It's not so much whether or notit should, it's what will
(22:31):
happen if it doesn't.
We've all walked into jobs inone capacity or another, and
let's just do it this way.
If you go to Chick-fil-A, youfind people who love their jobs
right and are equipped to dothem really well and are trained
to feel good about who they areand what they're doing.
It shows.
If you walk into any other fastfood restaurant, you get people
who have not been valued norappreciated and they're
(22:55):
miserable.
And it shows so, even if youjust use that as an example.
And there are other placesbesides Chick-fil-A, but I think
they've got the corner on themarket.
When you walk in, do peoplelove or hate their job?
And if they hate it, why?
And can you do anything aboutit, Right?
So I think about that in retail, I think about that in
corporations, where you can justtell when people are cared for
(23:17):
or not.
And it doesn't meaneverything's butterflies and
bubbles, it's not.
It's just that when it isn't,it isn't all the time.
And I know that there isanother side to it, that this
too shall pass.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think that's really good and I appreciate the point
.
My husband and I were recentlyhaving the same conversation
about when did work become aburden?
When did that shift?
Because we all know and fromthe time we're little, we need
to work, and there's a biblicalbasis for work and there's a lot
of context around the value ofwork, the beauty of work we are
all designed for.
We talked about, you knowpurpose and how do we bring that
(23:49):
fruit to the world and how dowe make the biggest impact?
And so where did it go upsidedown?
Is it authority?
Is it a pushing back onauthority, Like you said?
Well, it's somebody else'sbusiness, so it's not my own.
So then I have this opposition.
Or is it the culture of theorganizations that we see, where
they're primarily focused onpotentially just making money or
the revenue?
The bottom line and the peopleto your point, their hearts,
(24:12):
their values, the things thatare really the core essence of
who they are as people, are justoverlooked for the sake of a
dollar right, and they feeleaten up and discarded.
And I think there's a lot ofthat that goes on under the
surface, that people don't havethe time or don't know how to
put language around how theyfeel or why they feel this
(24:33):
negativity in it.
So is there anything that youcan speak to, that you think on
that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've had quite a few guests on Productive Joy talk
about this topic right here.
You spend 90,000 hours at workin your life.
If you hate it, that is 90,000hours wasted, right?
I think there are a couple ofthings at play.
I think that there's thegenerational piece of you get a
job, you stay in that job, youdo that job for 50 years and
(24:58):
then you move on.
I think about my father-in-law.
He was an optometrist in thesame office with the same chair
and the same furniture for 52years, and he can slip right.
I did this for a couple ofyears.
I'm done because it's not.
(25:20):
I think the shift happens whenour mindset says I have to go to
work instead of I get to go towork.
So I'm actually doing somecoaching with Amy Kemp.
She wrote a book called I Seeyou.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I do know her.
She came on the podcast, oh Ijust adore her.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I have a post-it note I'm looking at right here that
says I want to, I get to, Ichoose to.
So when you think about habitsof the mind, which is what she
teaches it's about, are youapproaching things with the have
to mentality or I must, or Iowe it, or are you I want to, I
get to, I choose to?
I think that's where the misshappens, when people are looking
(26:02):
through their lens, right, andmaybe it is miserable, but
they're saying I have to insteadof I get to.
And I think that's the shiftthat can happen is when we shift
to saying I get to instead of Ihave.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, I think that's a very powerful, like the first
piece.
I totally agree with you.
I do coaching and mentoring andI worked a lot with veterans or
military members who werecoming out of the service.
So for a period of time, for acouple of years, I was mentoring
and coaching them as they weregetting ready to transition, to
figure out, well, what do I wantto do now after 20, 30 years in
the military.
And it was really interestingbecause you start to talk about,
(26:33):
well, what's your heart, say,these elements of your life that
you've kind ofcompartmentalized and didn't get
to really connect with.
You're like I don't know, Idon't know what I like Just
always done this job becausenecessity or different things,
different things they valued,which was, it's not bad.
And so there's someconversations I've had too.
Is, before you decide to leavethis thing, you really have to
get clear, I think, on why areyou leaving?
(26:54):
Because, if not, you findyourself stuck in this pattern.
You get to the next job andyou're like is it the job or is
there something else going on inyou that you just have to maybe
take the time to work through?
But it is hard because they'relike I don't know, I don't know
what the answer is.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Well, we're not taught that in school.
We're not taught, at leastexplicitly, to follow your heart
.
No, you have to go to algebraand then you go to biology and
then you go to writing, likeit's dictated for you, even
though there's some choice withelectives, overall, we are told
you sit still, you've got 50minutes.
You're only good if you can begood on these standardized tests
.
And so we're constantly judginga fish on its ability to climb
(27:33):
a tree.
So I have twins, boy and a girl, and they could not be any more
different.
I told you I'm very efficient,you know.
I mean one pregnancy, two kids.
That's great, but they couldnot be more different human
beings, even though they shareda womb and in school.
That is where Chloe thrives.
She is a kindergarten teachernow.
She has her undergrad and hermaster's already at 24.
(27:53):
She loves school.
That is where she feels like.
She understands how things work.
Jackson is quite possibly one ofthe most brilliant humans I've
ever met in my life, but schoolis never where he feels safe,
for whatever reason.
Right, and so he is willing towork really, really hard and has
had career experiences that Ihaven't even had.
(28:14):
I mean, he's managed as many as80 people, but he hasn't found
his.
Oh my gosh, I want to do this.
Yet I listened to him and I tryreally hard to listen clearly
on not a fish's ability to climba tree, but you are a fish
swimming in the water and whatare you really good at?
Because he, unfortunately, hasbeen taught somewhere by the
(28:35):
world and I mean, I know what Isaid to him, but I also know
that he didn't hear a lot ofthese things.
But he somehow thinks well, Iwent this route and now I have
to stay here.
I'm like, dude, you are 24years old, you do not have to
stay where you are doing whatyou're doing.
You could do anything.
But going back to your militaryhumans, your people that you
(28:56):
were coaching, nobody's evertold them they could choose.
So we do that a lot to people.
I've always been a CPA.
Okay.
Well, what other talents do youhave?
What makes you excited?
What lights you up inside?
And then how do we make thatsomething that you do more than
not?
I know that everybody doesn'thave the blessing of having
their passion meet their purpose, and yet I question why not?
(29:18):
Why can't you be passionateabout what you're doing and find
purpose in it?
It might not be the job itself.
It might be the people that youinteract with at the job.
It might be the light that youget to be in that space.
It might be the smile that youoffer every day.
But we all get to have ourpassion, meet our purpose if we
choose to.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I think that's so good and I love the perspective
shift.
Like you said, it's like justchanging those little pieces.
I remember I went and got a jobat an organization and it
wasn't my favorite job or thejob that I really wanted it was,
but it was provided right.
So my faith, I was like, okay,I prayed and there was a
situation, financial situation,in our family where my mom
needed money.
(29:57):
So it was one of those momentswhere I was praying and within a
week I had a job.
And so when I went to work everyday, on the days where I got
super grumbly, where I was likeI'm not happy here, the culture
the people are yelling at youknow all the things I would
remind myself I was like, allright, lord, we need this to get
to the next step, we need moneyto pay for mom so she doesn't
lose our house, and so we committo do this thing.
(30:18):
And so it was like trying tofind, to your point, the joy in
the moment, in the journey.
I say the joy in the journeybecause it is hard, it can get
overwhelming and consuming, andI think that is just as
important.
To your point, it might not bethat, hey, I really love this
widget that we're creating and Ireally love this company and I
really want to be a salesperson,but it's like, okay, what can I
find inside my daily life thatdoes bring me that pieces of joy
(30:42):
, where I can connect and not gonumb?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Exactly because we can just start going through the
motions and, okay, I'm hereeight hours and here's what I'm
going to do for those eighthours.
But I know that this monthyou're talking about a couple
different specific verses, andyou're talking about a couple
different specific verses.
And in Galatians 6, 9 says andlet us not grow weary in doing
good, for at the proper time wewill reap a harvest if we don't
give up.
I think that's exactly what youjust said, right?
(31:04):
So I know this isn't foreverand I know I'm doing this thing
and this is not what fills mycup today, but what about?
It can fill my cup so that Ican continue to do it until the
next thing opens up.
I think the addition I wouldmake to that is am I looking to
see what else is out there, oram I becoming complacent where I
am?
Because I think we also getstuck because we stop looking
(31:27):
right, we don't elevate our eyesand we stay focused head down
on.
This is the thing I know.
When you shifted from corporateAmerica to an entrepreneurship
journey, you had to look up, youhad to go oh, okay, and it's
not entrepreneurship foreverybody, although that is a
great way that you can start toutilize your talents.
But I think the difference inpeople who find productive joy
(31:49):
and those who don't is thatthey're not looking.
They got to look.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So do you have some warning signs that you know or
would offer for teams or forpeople who are starting to quiet
, quit emotionally, even beforethey resign?
What does that look like orwhat are some warning signs?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
In a virtual world.
It's cameras off In a workspace, it's doors closed.
It's people who and I'm notsaying that some people don't
need their door to be closed towork, that's not it at all.
It's choosing not to engage.
It's isolation, it's siloedwork, and no work doesn't it can
be a very clear sign that myinterests are elsewhere.
(32:34):
That's probably the biggest one.
The other one is continuouspushback or angst.
Everything that you say is metwith some sort of I'm not doing
that instead of huh, that mightwork, and I think that comes
from not involving the peoplethat are doing the work.
We make these ideas on high andsay, oh, everybody's going to
do this now, and we don't botherto ask the people that actually
(32:55):
have to do the this and wonder,and so I think that a lot of
quiet quitting happens in thatspace, where people stop doing a
good job at what they're doing,stop taking pride in what
they're doing because they hadzero voice in the process.
And it can be simple thingslike okay, so if we lined up
this room so that this part ofthe widget is here versus over
(33:16):
there, it would go so much moresmoothly, but instead I have to
walk across the room each timeto go get that thing.
Can we move it?
If you say no, I'm out Likeokay, I'll keep walking across
the room, but I'm going to goslower every single time.
So your question about how doesit manifest or how does it show
up?
It starts in the pullback whereI used to be a full tilt.
Oh my gosh, yes Me, sign me up.
(33:37):
Sign me up Now.
I'm not putting my hand upfirst, like I'm going to wait
and I know I could do it and Iknow I'd be really good at it,
but I'm not going to give you mytalent because it's basically
not appreciated.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, I see that a lot.
That makes a lot of sense.
I can totally relate to that ondifferent levels.
I try to offer a lot of empathyon the podcast for leaders and
people who are in a positionwhere they're stewards of other
people's hearts and time andtalent, because it can be
overwhelming.
Like you're saying, some daysyou're just trying to get
through the day, I get it, andyou've got competing priorities
and you've got deadlines and soyou don't intentionally step
(34:10):
over people, right, and so Ithink there's an empathy for
that.
I say that a lot.
What else is going on in thatperson's life or in their
conversations, or how muchtension are they getting from
their leaders when they aretrying to, like, advocate for
their team or get additionalresources and they're not being
heard and so they're holding itat both sides?
I think Middle management rightwhen we say it's like one of
(34:31):
the hardest positions to be in,and so do you have any, I guess,
recommendations for the leaderswho might feel like they're
unequipped to like shift theirculture and what's maybe one
practical step that they cantake to analyze and improve
their team where they are?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love the way you framed that.
So I think remembering thathurt people hurt people is
important, and I think about ourmiddle managers particularly
where you're right.
If I'm governed a certain way,I'm probably going to govern the
same way, or I'm going to dothe exact opposite because this
is so bad or this is so good,and I don't want to be that
toxic positivity person.
I think the practical thing isto know yourself first, know how
(35:09):
you show up in the workplace,know how you utilize your
talents in the workplace.
If I know me, then I am moreopen to say that's not my
strength.
I need to find somebody who canfill that void Versus
insecurity, because insecurityis often born out of the space
(35:32):
of feeling like you have toappear smarter than you are, or
not feeling psychologically safeenough to say I don't know.
When you operate out ofinsecurity, you tend to lash
right Instead of accept, and soany sort of criticism is going
to be like nope, sorry, I'm out.
So I think, as our sphere ofcontrol is this little bitty
hole right here, our sphere ofinfluence is as big as our arms
will go.
We can only control us.
(35:53):
We're part of that little bittysphere.
We forget that sometimes.
So the simple fact is, if youdon't know yourself well enough
to know your needs, how can youpossibly help other people
figure out theirs?
So know yourself first, and ifyou see yourself operating out
of insecurity, don't be afraidto ask questions.
A giant opening of Pandora'sbox.
(36:31):
You're like, oh my gosh, wait.
You mean, I don't have to haveall the answers and I don't have
to be the only one who can dothis thing, and I don't need to
be the smartest person in theroom.
Yes, our best leaders are theones that recognize that they
shouldn't be the smartest personin the room, and if they are,
they need to find another room.
They need to hire new people,because if we're the only one
capable, we did that toourselves.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's exactly right.
I teach and I work in like thefounder space with coaching and
business leaders and nonprofitleaders.
So there's that foundersyndrome where we're like it's
mine and I have to hold on to it, but trying to get them to the
place where it's like, no, youhave to train somebody else.
You have to get to the placewhere and it's hard it's super
vulnerable, because then you'relike but that's my identity.
But if I am giving myself orgiving this away, or I'm giving
(37:11):
all of these things away, then Ihave no responsibility or I'm
not the one who has the answer.
So then it is a struggle from avulnerability, because then you
start to think, well then whatis my value?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And then the enemy starts to tell us that we're not
worth anything 100% accurateand I think just honestly, as
women, we probably do that thatmuch more Somewhere along the
way.
We were told, right, that ourvalue and our worth was tied to
something and it's not.
We are worthy by ourselves,that's what God made us.
But we screw that up with ourminds quite frequently in saying
(37:43):
yeah but right.
Stop the yeah buts and focusmore on the ands and recognize
that, yeah, we actually dobetter when we give things away.
So I run a team right now that Iabsolutely adore.
They are amazing human beingsand they all have very unique
talents.
And there are other teams inour organization who lead with
(38:03):
an iron fist kind of hold onreally, really tight, and I have
to be the one to call thesuperintendents and I have to be
the one and I have to be theone.
I don't work that way, mostlybecause I at 48, recognize that
I don't have the best answers.
There are spaces where I'mreally really good, but there
are other spaces that otherpeople are really good, and so
in letting my team go and justsay, you know what, go and be
(38:23):
shiny, the feel is fullydifferent and I think that's
what really good leaders dodifferent, and I think that's
what really good leaders do,especially like you're saying
founders who?
this is my baby.
I started this in a garage bymyself and now I have 200
employees.
How do I do that?
I think that's where a lot ofself-reflection has to come in
in order for us to find successin that.
(38:44):
So I'm glad you're tellingpeople how to do that and
guiding them through thatprocess.
It's not an easy one, but gosh,is it important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Yeah, I think so too, and I think what you said about
when you talked about thesprinkle, you know, shower, drip
, drip, drip, like that's theother part too.
Right.
We talk about that continuingthe culture, the message and the
values and repeating it, andmaybe a thousand times you may
feel like you've said this athousand times.
This is who we are, this iswhat we're doing, but the
reality is it's a.
It always has to be right infront of us from a visionary
(39:11):
leader perspective, because youdo have all of these different
people with different viewpointsand things that they see and
they hone in on that one thingand it's really good and they
see it.
And so they don't see thisthing over here.
That doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with them.
We get frustrated, we're likewhy didn't you see XYZ?
And they're like not how I'mdesigned, I'm designed to see
(39:31):
this.
And so when you start to seethat, I think in your
organizations and your teams andyour families, even with your
families, you're like oh okay,this is my role, like you're
saying, and this is my.
I use the story of Nehemiah alot from a leadership
perspective in the biblicalstory.
You know, we're rebuilding thewall and it's like every single
person was called to standoutside their home and build
their section of the wall with asword and a shovel one hand,
(39:51):
and they had to look out foreach other.
So I wasn't called to buildsomebody else's wall, like I
wasn't called to go to Christy'shouse and build her wall.
I'm called to build the wallthat's right in front of my home
and I'm equipped to do thatthing.
And so there is just.
I think there's a lot, there'sa distraction and a lot of other
things going on.
So I say all that to say I havegreat empathy and great grace
for the journey.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Oh yeah, well, and I believe with my whole being that
there is not a soul who wakesup in the morning and says I
want to be terrible at my jobtoday.
But some people aren't yetgiven the right tools to be
great, and maybe they're notseeking them, but most of the
time it's that they're notavailable, or they have them and
they haven't practiced usingthem.
It takes 18 times of doingsomething in front of others to
(40:34):
master it, but we tend to say Itried that once in 1987 and it
didn't work, so I'm never goingto do it again.
And the problem with that iswe've missed the opportunity to
get good at something, becauseit really does take practice.
So I encourage leaders oftengive yourself some grace and do
this with a team, because theother phrase that I love to use
(40:55):
is you know, there is only oneway to eat an elephant, and
that's one bite at a time.
However, it's a whole loteasier to eat with friends.
So when you're thinking abouteating that elephant, who on
your team can take a big bite ofthis and who on your team can
take a big bite of that?
Because together we're a wholelot better.
And, like you said, if I'mbuilding this part of the wall.
I don't even see this over here, but you do, and so I'm going
(41:16):
to trust you enough to see thatpart over there and look at it
differently.
I talk a lot about diversity ofthought and having diversity of
thought on your teams, and thatgoes back to the paperclips,
linky, magnifying glass andteddy bear.
If you have a team of teddybears, you are going to love
each other very well and you'renot going to get anything done,
right, because you don't want tostep on any toes and you want
(41:37):
to take care of people.
If you have a team of magnifyingglasses, you are going to get a
lot of stuff done and everybodyis going to be at odds and
miserable with one another,right?
And if you're slinkies, you'regoing to get all the ideas and
you might execute on one of themand you're going to be in need
of a nap later.
And if you are a team ofpaperclips, darn it if you're
(41:58):
not going to be organized butyou're not going to have that
visionary piece that lets youthink outside the box.
So I would challenge thelisteners today to think about
their teams.
Do you know them well enough toknow who those people are on
your team and if you do, are youleveraging their talents?
Or are you asking a paperclipto be a slinky, because that is
a really uncomfortable placethat you're putting that person
(42:19):
in just because it's part oftheir job?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
title.
I think that's so good and wehave the opportunity for most
things to change right, To movethings around like jobs and
roles and things within thecontext of whatever your
organization looks like.
But I think that's really good.
It doesn't always have to stayexactly the same.
There's a better way to do it.
We should totally try.
So what are you working on now?
What's coming up for you?
So it's something you're superexcited about that you want to
(42:41):
share.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, so I have a new company brewing called
Intentionality Group, and what'sso cool about Intentionality
Group is it is a group of humanswho have each had 20 plus years
experience in their space, butwe're coming together to help
organizations improve their well, improve their anything and
everything, but really theirtraining, so that people can be
(43:03):
good at their jobs.
Just like we just said, ifsomebody is being asked to do
something, we have to equip themto do it and do it well.
But what we tend to do is we setthem in front of a module or we
put them into a training, andthe training is the same for
everybody and it's just not welldone.
We can fix that, and so we workwith companies to say, first of
all, where are your deficits,what's the biggest problem
you're trying to solve right now, and then, how can we build
systems to be able to help yousolve them?
(43:24):
It's not that we knoweverything there is to know
about the chemical engineeringcompany, but we do know how to
teach people things and we knowhow to get them to remember the
things they need to know so thatthey don't melt their hands off
because they didn't followprotocol.
So it's a partnership betweenintentionality group and your
company to intentionally look atyour systems and figure out how
(43:44):
to make them work in the bestpossible way for every employee,
by making it safe, logical, funand memorable.
So I'm having so much fun withthat.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That's so good.
Well, that's really good.
Well, we'll put all your linksin the show notes so everybody
can reach out and find you.
Definitely in your book, yeah,and your podcast, for sure.
Again, don't forget to pop overand listen.
It's really good, it's veryencouraging and Christy does a
great job.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Well, and you can hear Danita in that.
You could go listen to herepisode.
I don't remember what number itwas, but we could put that in
the show notes too.
That's very true, yes we'll dothat.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
We'll link them together.
That's very true.
I had a great time on your show, so thank you so much for
sharing space with me.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Well, I had a great time here and thank you so much
for what you're doing and forcontinuing to help people be
able to be sparkly in theirspace and be the best versions
of themselves.
I think you're doing somereally great stuff.
Yes, it was fun, thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Wow, what an incredible conversation.
Dr Christy reminded us todaythat joy in the workplace isn't
about ping pong tables or pizzaparties which I love but it's
about being seen, feeling safeand doing meaningful work with
people who appreciate yourGod-given gifts.
And let's be honest, as leadersit is easy to get caught up in
checklists and policies and thenext big thing, but I hope
(44:55):
today's message reminds you thatculture is built one
interaction at a time.
When we intentionally createspaces where people feel valued,
then we don't have to just makework more fun, we can also make
it more fruitful.
So, as we wrap up, I want toleave you with this one question
when in your leadership rightnow do people feel seen, and
(45:17):
maybe where they might feelinvisible?
Take a minute this week and askyour team or even your family,
what helps them feel safe orvalued and what makes them feel
heard.
You might be surprised by whatyou learn.
I often do.
And, as always, let's rememberto lead with grace and purpose
and with the kind of joy thatreflects the heart of God.
Thanks for joining me today.
(45:38):
Don't forget to check outChristy's book Learning Can
Stick and her Productive Joypodcast.
You will definitely be gladthat you did so.
Until next time, remember thatyou're entrusted to lead and to
keep showing up every day, evenwhen it hurts, because you
matter.
I'll see you later.
Bye.
Hey friends, welcome back to Entrusted to Lead.
I'm your host, danita Cummins,and today we're diving into a
conversation that's asrefreshing as it is
transformational.
If you've ever looked aroundyour workplace and thought, man,
there has got to be more joythan this, then this episode is
totally for you.
I am joined by the dynamic andinsightful Dr Christy McMullen
bestselling author, educatorturned entrepreneur and host of
(00:26):
the Productive Joy podcast.
She is on a mission to teachleaders how to make every
workplace interaction safe,logical, fun and memorable.
Yes, you heard that right Funand productive.
And, believe it or not, sheuses stickers to prove it.
We're going to unpack how joyand productivity are not enemies
but essential allies.
(00:47):
Whether you lead a business, achurch, a nonprofit, we are
going to unpack how joy andproductivity are not enemies but
essential allies.
So, whether you lead a business, church or nonprofit, today's
conversation is going to changeyour perspective, inspire fresh
ideas and give you tools thatyou can actually use, because we
love that.
So grab your cup of coffee oryour favorite scratch and sniff
(01:09):
stickers and let's get started.
Leadership can feel really heavysometimes, especially when
you're carrying vision andpeople and purpose all on your
shoulders all at the same time.
You have got a big mission, butthe strategy feels fuzzy and
your team is looking at you forclarity that you're not sure you
(01:30):
actually have.
I get it.
It's hard.
I'm Danita Cummins.
I help faith-driven leaderslike you find clarity, align
with your values and lead withconfidence, without burning out,
because that's never okay.
If you're ready to get unstuck,lead your team with courage and
to turn that God-given visioninto a strategy that really
works.
I want us to talk.
(01:51):
Take the free leadershipclarity quiz that I've created
today and I want you to scheduleyour no-pressure coaching call
because together we can uncoverwhat's holding you back and how
to move forward in faith andconfidence.
Hey friends, welcome toEntrusted to Lead.
(02:11):
I'm Danita, and today I'm superexcited to be joined by my new
friend, dr Christy McMullin.
She is a bestselling author and25-year educator turned
entrepreneur, which we love.
Super adventurous and she ishere to talk about how she can
help you make work fun.
She's also the host of theProductive Joy podcast it's a
shameless plug, so please gocheck it out.
And we met last year, yes, whenshe let me come on the show
(02:32):
very graciously to talk about mybook, and so she's here today
to return the favor, so we'resuper excited to have her join
us.
Christy, how are you?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
today.
I am so good.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
I think we're going to have agood time, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I think it'll be fun.
Pun intended, right.
No pun intended, that's exactlyright.
So do you want to tell everyonea little bit about how you got
to be on this entrepreneurjourney today?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure.
So as an educator I don't knowif you know any educators, but
educators are really good at awhole lot of things and what
happened is I shifted out of theclassroom and into teaching
teachers, which is the thing andwhat I realized is that my
niche, my space, is actuallyteaching adults, and so for the
last 19 years or so, that'sexactly what I've been doing,
(03:15):
and what I also realized is that, although I was in the
education space, every businessperson on the planet is teaching
people things all day long, butthey haven't been taught how,
and so they do 900 slidePowerPoints with a thousand
words per page, and they talk atpeople instead of with people.
And so I thought wonder whatwould happen if I took what I
(03:37):
learned in that education spaceand turned it into a business
thing?
And I've found that, first ofall, adults love stickers and
they most definitely need what Ihave in terms of a set of
skills that can translate intoany business to make every
interaction safe, logical, funand memorable.
So I'm having a blast doingthat with nurses and Medicare
(04:00):
workers and mortgage brokers andreal estate agents and all of
everybody in between, and reallyhaving some fun.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Wow, that's super cool.
So in these differentindustries that you're a part of
because you're getting to seebehind the scenes of what the
culture really looks like andthe real no kidding kind of down
in the nitty gritty detailshave you found kind of like a
common theme of things orframework that really allows
what do thriving workplaces havelike in common, regardless of
(04:27):
the sector?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh, such a good question.
So the thing that they have incommon is that their people feel
valued and appreciated.
When I say that I make work fun, my definition of fun is that
people feel valued andappreciated, that they have a
voice and that they're allowedto use it and they're able to
leverage their talents for thegreater good of the organization
.
You can't do any of that unlessyou know your people.
So the places that are thrivingare the places where people
(04:52):
actually belong, instead ofassuming that they belong.
So people know their role, theyknow how to execute their role
and they know that those withthem and above them are going to
make it safe for them to makemistakes and ask questions,
because if those things aren'tin place, nothing else works,
and that's why people quit right.
Whether it's quiet quitting orreal quitting, people quit
(05:14):
things that aren't fun.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Have you found, with your teaching, certain models or
, I guess, tools that reallyhelp to create those things we
like to say that we have those,I guess, in organizations all
the time, right, as leaders,we're like, no, I create a place
that's safe or whatever, butyou're behind the scenes like,
no, actually really it's notvery good.
So have you found some specifictools to help people really
(05:36):
kind of hone in and see ifthey're actually creating those
and then how to adjust theirorganizations?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yes.
So I got certified inpsychological safety a couple
years back and so there is asurvey that you can give.
That kind of peels back theonion a little of the places
that it's not psychologicallysafe.
So that's one way that I can goin and help people understand
what they should be doing.
Another thing that I do that isactually a ton of fun and
really eye-opening is I helporganizations figure out what
(06:05):
personalities are at play.
So there are so manypersonality tests you can do and
Myers-Briggs and Berkman andEnneagram all of those that
require a test and are prettyheavy.
I actually do one that's prettysimple, that doesn't require a
test and it's you are either apaperclip, a magnified glass, a
teddy bear or a slinky, and sowe talk about those four
(06:26):
personality types and how theyshow up in the workplace, but
then we analyze the people inthe room to figure out well,
okay, if I'm a paperclip, whatare my superpowers and how do
those show up in the workplace?
And then how can I create adiversified group so that I do
also have a magnifying glass,slinky and a teddy bear near me,
because if I don't, then I losepeople.
So those are the two tools thatI typically lead with and then,
(06:49):
after they have gotten excitedabout those things, we talk
about creating productive joyand how you do that in the
workplace, because joy is achoice and you can't manifest it
.
People have to choose it.
So what are you doing in theworkplace that creates that safe
, logical, fun, memorable placewhere people can produce joy?
I don't have a wand.
(07:09):
Actually, that's not true.
I say this a lot.
I do have a dollar store wand.
Here is my wand.
It doesn't hold any magicalpowers, but my wand, if I had
one that worked, would be ableto be waved over organizations
and say, all right, everybodyfeels valued and appreciated,
everybody is loved here,everybody is safe.
Unfortunately, not all leadersare equipped with those talents
(07:31):
and you can't ask people tobecome something they're not.
But you can give them tools andteach them how to use those
tools.
And that's really what I'mdoing is giving people tools and
saying, all right, so of thesefour things safe, logical, fun
and memorable and I can explainthis if you want.
But of the four, which one am Ireally good at and where do I
need some help?
People don't necessarily needto be experts in all four, but
(07:53):
they do need to have peoplearound them that are, so that
they're not getting stuck allthe time.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, that's really good.
Do you want to explain that alittle bit more?
You said safe logical fun andmemorable.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
So this was where my research 25 years of educating
humans came in, and I knew Iwanted to write a book after I
finished my doctorate, butwasn't a hundred percent sure
what that would look like.
And so my book is calledLearning Can Stick, and it is
how to make every interactionsafe, logical, fun and memorable
.
Safe means not physically safe,although that's important I
don't want you to trip over achair but I also want it to be
psychologically safe.
So do people know that they canask questions, that they can
(08:28):
make mistakes, that you are notgoing to punish them for not
knowing something?
And do you know their names?
Do you know their dog's names?
Do you know that they have kids, or that they don't want kids,
or that their mom is sick orwhatever it is?
Do you, first and foremost,approach people from that place
of I see you, I know you and youmatter.
If we don't make it safe, noneof the rest of it matters.
(08:49):
You might as well just stopright.
So that's first, logical meansyou have a plan, you stick to
the plan, but you're not theonly one who knows the plan.
So frequently we'll call ameeting and we'll say I need you
in my office in an hour andmost people for that hour panic
because they don't know what themeeting's about.
They don't.
I'm not getting hired, fired,getting a raise under punishment
(09:10):
.
What if, instead, you said Ineed you in my office in an hour
?
It's to talk about the Smiths,because the Smiths are coming in
at two and I know you are thepoint person on that project.
Can you give me a rundown ofwhat that is?
Now I can spend that hour, well, right.
And then do you end on time,right?
So if this is supposed to lastan hour, does it last an hour or
(09:31):
does it last six?
Because I don't have six togive you, but I have one, right?
It's like that text messagethat we all dread.
Can we talk?
Oh my gosh.
Okay, first of all, how long isthis going to take and what in
the world do you want to talkabout?
So the logical part is reallythinking through giving
everybody else the script toyour movie instead of holding
onto it too tightly.
So the other part of logical,too, is recognizing that a one
(09:53):
pager goes a long way.
So if you're going to have ameeting telling people, here are
the three things we're going totalk about in this meeting,
instead of everything being asecret and you being the holder
of all the information.
That's not logical either.
So helping leaders understandwhat all that should look like.
And then fun.
Fun's my favorite.
I wasn't kidding, I do givescratch and sniff stickers to
adults.
I have been giving scratch andsniff stickers.
(10:14):
So it started in my high schoolclassroom.
I taught all these differentsciences in high school.
Then, when I started teachingadults, I was like I wonder if
they would like stickers too.
It is unreal how much grownhumans love a good sticker, and
it has a lot of things.
I've done a lot of research onthis, to the tune of probably
10,000 stickers given, if I hadto guess.
So when you approach somebodyand I do this at conferences and
(10:38):
wherever I'm meeting people andI'll say, do you want
peppermint or chocolate orstrawberry?
And they're like what?
They get so excited and somepeople decide right away and
other people are like thank you.
And so what I've found is I cancount, on one hand, the number
of people who said no, thank you, because I'm giving you
something for nothing, right?
It's that fun factor.
(11:02):
Our brain only fires neuronswhen there's some sort of
emotion tied to what we're doing.
That's why we remember thetragic things and the exciting
things, right?
So where were you on September11th of 2001?
We all know exactly whathappened that day.
I also know exactly whathappened on June 12th of 1999.
And most people can probablysay well, I brushed my teeth
right, like that's about it.
That's the day I got married.
So these are the things thathave burned into our brains.
Well, if we're having a meetingwhere everybody needs to be
(11:24):
involved and we don't bring thefun, unfortunately I was really
excited about it, but I didn'tmake you excited about it.
So you forgot everything and Iremembered everything, and
that's a problem.
So how do you make it fun?
How do you make people laugh?
How do you make people feelseen and excited?
And then, last but not least,memorable.
So this one, I think, isprobably the most lost art, and
(11:45):
that's that you can't be a oneand done.
If you say something tosomebody once, you can't assume
that they're going to rememberit for life.
We can be memorable humans, butwhat are you doing to
intentionally be memorable?
And that's that circle back,that's that opportunity to have
the conversation more than once.
So I like to say you have tosprinkle, splash, flood, drip,
drip, drip information.
(12:05):
So I'm from Florida and inFlorida it rains really, really
hard and right before it's goingto rain really really hard,
there are very large drops ofwater that hit your windshield.
Well, that's the sprinklesplash.
Right, you know you should takecover.
So that's the email before themeeting that says here are the
three things we're going tocover in this meeting.
Come with X, right?
So that's like a preview.
(12:26):
Then the flood is the meeting,is the training, is the event
where you get all theinformation, which sounds
wonderful, except that we losemost of that information, that
water in runoff, so we have todrip, drip, drip.
After that, the drip, drip,drip is the follow-up email that
says here are the three thingswe covered and here's who will
do what by when.
Or the phone call afterwardsthat says hey, we had that big
(12:47):
meeting and I gave you a wholelot of tasks, are you feeling
okay about that?
Or, a month later, circlingback and saying can we check in
on progress, what we tend to dois flood, flood, flood, and it
just doesn't work.
So that's the concept that Iteach, and I teach it to sales
teams when they're doing a pitchor to leadership teams when
they're trying to get cohesionon something, because,
(13:09):
ultimately, if you don't dothose four things, people just
shut down.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
That's so good.
I love that and the way thatyou've simplified it, like
you're saying where it's rootedin all of this research and all
of this data, I'm sure with allof your background as an
educator and, like you said,your doctorate and a book, so
that's not taken lightly.
But I love the fact that you'relike anybody can do this.
Let's just start today withwhere we are.
I feel like we get sooverwhelmed by the mountain in
(13:33):
front of us that we don't everstart.
We're like, oh, that's reallybig and so I'm just going to sit
over here and completely justnot do anything.
But I love the way that you'vebroken it out, so that's really
good.
So then you go through and yousay, okay, here are the four
pieces.
And then you sit down witheveryone and you had mentioned
earlier to like see which oneyou're good at and which one you
need help with.
And then do you do that, Iguess, with teams, where they
(13:53):
get to like kind of in the group, talk about it or work through
it or whatever, so that they canbuild cohesion in the team.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes.
So one of my favoriteopportunities happened with a
group that had just beenacquired by another group.
So now we have the leaders fromboth groups in the room and
they hadn't built systems yet.
They hadn't decided whichpolicies were going to be what.
They hadn't had the opportunitybecause they'd only been
acquired, let's say, two monthsbefore.
So this was the first time theywere all in the room together.
We started with personalitiesand they learned if they were a
(14:21):
slinky paperclip, teddy bear ora magnifying glass, and once
they knew that they had a commonlanguage and they could say
okay, so our magnifying glasses?
They tend to zoom in on thedetails, right.
They're task people who getstuff done.
If you have a magnifying glass,they're probably your leader.
Your paperclips are very linearin how they think.
They probably built the to-dolist that the magnifying glass
(14:42):
is accomplishing and they liketo hold things together.
They're very clear with steps.
Probably have a color-codedsock drawer kind of people,
right.
Then we have our teddy bears.
Our teddy bears are veryconcerned with how people feel.
So when was the last time youtook a break?
Oh, how's your daughterChecking in on the human side of
things?
And then you have your slinkies, your slinkies are fun, right,
(15:02):
because slinkies, your slinkiesare fun, right, because slinkies
are fun, but they're a littleall over the place.
They're the big idea people whogo what if we did this thing?
And oh my gosh, but a slinkyneeds a paperclip in their life
to actually accomplish saidthing.
They definitely need somebodyto hold them together.
So once they knew that, now inthe room, they knew who should
be sitting with who, oh my gosh,the accounting department has
(15:25):
only paperclips and nomagnifying glasses, like
nobody's a teddy bear.
So what do we do, right?
I'm not saying that accountantsaren't touchy-feely, I'm just
saying, stereotypically, right.
So once they knew that and theyknew the people in the room,
then we went into safe, logical,fun and memorable and what that
could mean.
But it didn't stop there.
So my drip, drip, drip was okay.
(15:50):
So let me expose you to all ofthis and give you a task.
I need you to create a meeting,a summit, whatever you're going
to do with your team, and Ineed you to incorporate these
four things into that experience.
I'll be back in a month andwhen I come back, let's talk
about how that went.
So what happened is?
They tried it and when theytried it.
Their other task was to talk tosomebody else who had tried it
and see how it went, and theconversations were rich, right?
Okay, so we need to figure outwhich policy we're going to use
(16:12):
for travel with this new company.
How do we do that, I don't know.
Okay, well, let's create ameeting where everybody gives
input, etc, etc.
So when I came back the secondtime, they were very full of
questions.
They were like okay, so yousaid logical, but I don't know
exactly what you mean by that.
How can I make this morelogical?
So when I work with teams, it'svery catered to, right, like
(16:34):
it's very for the needs of thatparticular organization in that
space.
But this transcends anything,right?
So you have adult children.
I have adult children.
When we're talking to them, ifwe're not safe, logical, fun and
memorable, that's a problem.
Our spouses?
I don't think that we weredesigned to not be those four
things.
And it's not rocket science,like you said.
It's simple and that's bydesign.
(16:56):
But that doesn't make it easy.
So it might be easy for me tomake it safe, because I'm a very
personable and I make peoplefeel comfortable, but the
logical, like nobody can get inhere and see what I'm thinking,
and so I tend to make peoplefeel stressed.
So what do I do about that?
So that's kind of how it allcomes together, especially with
the group, and that drip, drip,drip makes it actually stick.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, I think that's really good.
That's so helpful.
I was in an organization mylast corporate America job
before I started my entrepreneurjourney and it was very much
that it was a company that hadmerged.
It was six companies basicallybecause they had done all of
these mergers and acquisitionsand at the time I came in we had
an office that was local hereand then the headquarters, which
was another company inCalifornia.
(17:37):
So you've got two sides of thecountry.
You have completely differentteams and they were two
companies that merged into one,and so the headquarters office,
for example, was all inCalifornia and so all of those
HR director finance they wereall from company A and company B
was like that's not how we doit.
It was such a challenging timeand there wasn't a lot of the
(18:02):
psychological safety piece of itwhen just the safe part,
because you're like my policydoesn't say that and they're
like we'll just do the policythat here's our policy, and then
you get it and you're like wedon't even have those policies.
This company has never done itlike this before.
So I think that's such a greatexample that you give with like
just leading change in anorganization which is a
framework.
That's what I tell people.
I'm like leading changesframework.
(18:23):
Everything has a model to it ifwe look at it from that
perspective, and so I think it'ssuper helpful that you're doing
that.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I love the example that you gave of okay.
So these people all came fromcompany A.
This is how we do it.
These people are from company Bgoing no.
No, that's not.
Both points are valid, but thereisn't a space where both points
can be heard.
There might be a very validreason why you keep group A's
way of work and, as humans, wewill only do things if we
(18:53):
understand why.
So if you are not making thatwhy clear, then you're just
telling me this is the way we'regoing to do it.
I'm going to buck the systemevery time, but if you take the
time to say here's why we'redoing this, this is the
repercussions if we don't.
This is what we've thoughtabout.
This is why we ever.
What would you add?
It's a fully differentsituation because it is a better
(19:15):
way.
Now do I have to change andlearn that change?
Yes, but you just made itsomething that I want to do
versus something I'm told to do,and we're just not good as
adult humans and I say adultloosely as humans, we're not
real good with that's because Isaid so that's exactly true.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Yeah, there's some antibody in there already.
That's just the natural pushingback on things that makes sense
.
So how do you respond toleaders who may feel like that
joy and productivity are at oddswith each other?
What do you say to that?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Good question.
Sometimes I'm as blunt assaying all right, so people do
quit things that aren't fun.
You don't go to a movie asecond time if you didn't like
it the first time, and youcertainly don't go back out on a
date with somebody that youwere just fully bored with.
But you're asking people tocome to work every day to a
place that they hate, that theyfind to be miserable.
That's sucking the life out ofthem and you expect them to show
(20:04):
up.
Well, not going to happen.
So I do use a lot of the brainresearch around the happiness
advantage as an example.
There has been a ton ofresearch done by Harvard that
says that happy people are moreproductive people.
But I don't know somewherealong the way and I don't know
if it's generational or not, butsomewhere along the way we said
work, play.
(20:25):
We forget that those two thingscan actually happen in tandem.
So my plight to get productivejoy to be something that
everybody's thinking about isreally centered around.
If we don't, then we better beready for mediocrity.
You can't create great thingsif you are not passionately
excited about the thing thatyou're doing.
(20:46):
Now am I going to bepassionately excited about every
project I get at work?
No, but do I have people therethat I can laugh with in the
process?
Yes, do I have a team that Itrust, that trust me, that
believe in me and are letting medo the things that I'm good at?
Yes, that is fun.
So, going back to my definitionvalued and appreciated Do I
ever hear thank you?
Right, that's fun.
(21:06):
That's productivity and joy atwork.
Do people say you know what?
You are so well equipped to dothis thing that I'm going to let
you do this thing.
That's fun.
It's fun to have a voice.
So my least favorite thing onthe planet is when you survey
your team and then you do ityour way anyway and you never
give anybody who gave feedbackany explanation as to where
(21:29):
their feedback went.
Like it went into the circularfiling cabinet, aka trunk.
I'm not saying take every ideathat your team comes up with,
because they won't all be great,but is there a space for it?
And do people know why youdidn't go with their idea?
That's fun.
And then it's fun when you knowme well enough to know that as
the slinky, I should be at thetable when we're trying to come
(21:50):
up with new ideas and as thepaperclip.
I should be responsible for thetimeline and the project
management and the spreadsheetthat goes with it.
And as the magnifying glass putme in charge, darn it.
Like I am good at it, let meget stuff done.
And then the teddy bear is, Ithink, the least utilized person
and the most important.
Does anybody feel comfortablein this space?
(22:10):
Has anybody checked in with theteam and said I am holding up
right?
All these things have changed.
Are you okay, so thatleveraging your talents is also
fun?
Your original question wasproductivity and joy.
How do those come together?
If they don't, you will loseyour best people period.
It's not so much whether or notit should, it's what will
(22:31):
happen if it doesn't.
We've all walked into jobs inone capacity or another, and
let's just do it this way.
If you go to Chick-fil-A, youfind people who love their jobs
right and are equipped to dothem really well and are trained
to feel good about who they areand what they're doing.
It shows.
If you walk into any other fastfood restaurant, you get people
who have not been valued norappreciated and they're
(22:55):
miserable.
And it shows so, even if youjust use that as an example.
And there are other placesbesides Chick-fil-A, but I think
they've got the corner on themarket.
When you walk in, do peoplelove or hate their job?
And if they hate it, why?
And can you do anything aboutit, Right?
So I think about that in retail, I think about that in
corporations, where you can justtell when people are cared for
(23:17):
or not.
And it doesn't meaneverything's butterflies and
bubbles, it's not.
It's just that when it isn't,it isn't all the time.
And I know that there isanother side to it, that this
too shall pass.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I think that's really good and I appreciate the point
.
My husband and I were recentlyhaving the same conversation
about when did work become aburden?
When did that shift?
Because we all know and fromthe time we're little, we need
to work, and there's a biblicalbasis for work and there's a lot
of context around the value ofwork, the beauty of work we are
all designed for.
We talked about, you knowpurpose and how do we bring that
(23:49):
fruit to the world and how dowe make the biggest impact?
And so where did it go upsidedown?
Is it authority?
Is it a pushing back onauthority, Like you said?
Well, it's somebody else'sbusiness, so it's not my own.
So then I have this opposition.
Or is it the culture of theorganizations that we see, where
they're primarily focused onpotentially just making money or
the revenue?
The bottom line and the peopleto your point, their hearts,
(24:12):
their values, the things thatare really the core essence of
who they are as people, are justoverlooked for the sake of a
dollar right, and they feeleaten up and discarded.
And I think there's a lot ofthat that goes on under the
surface, that people don't havethe time or don't know how to
put language around how theyfeel or why they feel this
(24:33):
negativity in it.
So is there anything that youcan speak to, that you think on
that?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I've had quite a few guests on Productive Joy talk
about this topic right here.
You spend 90,000 hours at workin your life.
If you hate it, that is 90,000hours wasted, right?
I think there are a couple ofthings at play.
I think that there's thegenerational piece of you get a
job, you stay in that job, youdo that job for 50 years and
(24:58):
then you move on.
I think about my father-in-law.
He was an optometrist in thesame office with the same chair
and the same furniture for 52years, and he can slip right.
I did this for a couple ofyears.
I'm done because it's not.
(25:20):
I think the shift happens whenour mindset says I have to go to
work instead of I get to go towork.
So I'm actually doing somecoaching with Amy Kemp.
She wrote a book called I Seeyou.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I do know her.
She came on the podcast, oh Ijust adore her.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I have a post-it note I'm looking at right here that
says I want to, I get to, Ichoose to.
So when you think about habitsof the mind, which is what she
teaches it's about, are youapproaching things with the have
to mentality or I must, or Iowe it, or are you I want to, I
get to, I choose to?
I think that's where the misshappens, when people are looking
(26:02):
through their lens, right, andmaybe it is miserable, but
they're saying I have to insteadof I get to.
And I think that's the shiftthat can happen is when we shift
to saying I get to instead of Ihave.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, I think that's a very powerful, like the first
piece.
I totally agree with you.
I do coaching and mentoring andI worked a lot with veterans or
military members who werecoming out of the service.
So for a period of time, for acouple of years, I was mentoring
and coaching them as they weregetting ready to transition, to
figure out, well, what do I wantto do now after 20, 30 years in
the military.
And it was really interestingbecause you start to talk about,
(26:33):
well, what's your heart, say,these elements of your life that
you've kind ofcompartmentalized and didn't get
to really connect with.
You're like I don't know, Idon't know what I like Just
always done this job becausenecessity or different things,
different things they valued,which was, it's not bad.
And so there's someconversations I've had too.
Is, before you decide to leavethis thing, you really have to
get clear, I think, on why areyou leaving?
(26:54):
Because, if not, you findyourself stuck in this pattern.
You get to the next job andyou're like is it the job or is
there something else going on inyou that you just have to maybe
take the time to work through?
But it is hard because they'relike I don't know, I don't know
what the answer is.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Well, we're not taught that in school.
We're not taught, at leastexplicitly, to follow your heart
.
No, you have to go to algebraand then you go to biology and
then you go to writing, likeit's dictated for you, even
though there's some choice withelectives, overall, we are told
you sit still, you've got 50minutes.
You're only good if you can begood on these standardized tests
.
And so we're constantly judginga fish on its ability to climb
(27:33):
a tree.
So I have twins, boy and a girl, and they could not be any more
different.
I told you I'm very efficient,you know.
I mean one pregnancy, two kids.
That's great, but they couldnot be more different human
beings, even though they shareda womb and in school.
That is where Chloe thrives.
She is a kindergarten teachernow.
She has her undergrad and hermaster's already at 24.
(27:53):
She loves school.
That is where she feels like.
She understands how things work.
Jackson is quite possibly one ofthe most brilliant humans I've
ever met in my life, but schoolis never where he feels safe,
for whatever reason.
Right, and so he is willing towork really, really hard and has
had career experiences that Ihaven't even had.
(28:14):
I mean, he's managed as many as80 people, but he hasn't found
his.
Oh my gosh, I want to do this.
Yet I listened to him and I tryreally hard to listen clearly
on not a fish's ability to climba tree, but you are a fish
swimming in the water and whatare you really good at?
Because he, unfortunately, hasbeen taught somewhere by the
(28:35):
world and I mean, I know what Isaid to him, but I also know
that he didn't hear a lot ofthese things.
But he somehow thinks well, Iwent this route and now I have
to stay here.
I'm like, dude, you are 24years old, you do not have to
stay where you are doing whatyou're doing.
You could do anything.
But going back to your militaryhumans, your people that you
(28:56):
were coaching, nobody's evertold them they could choose.
So we do that a lot to people.
I've always been a CPA.
Okay.
Well, what other talents do youhave?
What makes you excited?
What lights you up inside?
And then how do we make thatsomething that you do more than
not?
I know that everybody doesn'thave the blessing of having
their passion meet their purpose, and yet I question why not?
(29:18):
Why can't you be passionateabout what you're doing and find
purpose in it?
It might not be the job itself.
It might be the people that youinteract with at the job.
It might be the light that youget to be in that space.
It might be the smile that youoffer every day.
But we all get to have ourpassion, meet our purpose if we
choose to.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I think that's so good and I love the perspective
shift.
Like you said, it's like justchanging those little pieces.
I remember I went and got a jobat an organization and it
wasn't my favorite job or thejob that I really wanted it was,
but it was provided right.
So my faith, I was like, okay,I prayed and there was a
situation, financial situation,in our family where my mom
needed money.
(29:57):
So it was one of those momentswhere I was praying and within a
week I had a job.
And so when I went to work everyday, on the days where I got
super grumbly, where I was likeI'm not happy here, the culture
the people are yelling at youknow all the things I would
remind myself I was like, allright, lord, we need this to get
to the next step, we need moneyto pay for mom so she doesn't
lose our house, and so we committo do this thing.
(30:18):
And so it was like trying tofind, to your point, the joy in
the moment, in the journey.
I say the joy in the journeybecause it is hard, it can get
overwhelming and consuming, andI think that is just as
important.
To your point, it might not bethat, hey, I really love this
widget that we're creating and Ireally love this company and I
really want to be a salesperson,but it's like, okay, what can I
find inside my daily life thatdoes bring me that pieces of joy
(30:42):
, where I can connect and not gonumb?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Exactly because we can just start going through the
motions and, okay, I'm hereeight hours and here's what I'm
going to do for those eighthours.
But I know that this monthyou're talking about a couple
different specific verses, andyou're talking about a couple
different specific verses.
And in Galatians 6, 9 says andlet us not grow weary in doing
good, for at the proper time wewill reap a harvest if we don't
give up.
I think that's exactly what youjust said, right?
(31:04):
So I know this isn't foreverand I know I'm doing this thing
and this is not what fills mycup today, but what about?
It can fill my cup so that Ican continue to do it until the
next thing opens up.
I think the addition I wouldmake to that is am I looking to
see what else is out there, oram I becoming complacent where I
am?
Because I think we also getstuck because we stop looking
(31:27):
right, we don't elevate our eyesand we stay focused head down
on.
This is the thing I know.
When you shifted from corporateAmerica to an entrepreneurship
journey, you had to look up, youhad to go oh, okay, and it's
not entrepreneurship foreverybody, although that is a
great way that you can start toutilize your talents.
But I think the difference inpeople who find productive joy
(31:49):
and those who don't is thatthey're not looking.
They got to look.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
So do you have some warning signs that you know or
would offer for teams or forpeople who are starting to quiet
, quit emotionally, even beforethey resign?
What does that look like orwhat are some warning signs?
Speaker 2 (32:05):
In a virtual world.
It's cameras off In a workspace, it's doors closed.
It's people who and I'm notsaying that some people don't
need their door to be closed towork, that's not it at all.
It's choosing not to engage.
It's isolation, it's siloedwork, and no work doesn't it can
be a very clear sign that myinterests are elsewhere.
(32:34):
That's probably the biggest one.
The other one is continuouspushback or angst.
Everything that you say is metwith some sort of I'm not doing
that instead of huh, that mightwork, and I think that comes
from not involving the peoplethat are doing the work.
We make these ideas on high andsay, oh, everybody's going to
do this now, and we don't botherto ask the people that actually
(32:55):
have to do the this and wonder,and so I think that a lot of
quiet quitting happens in thatspace, where people stop doing a
good job at what they're doing,stop taking pride in what
they're doing because they hadzero voice in the process.
And it can be simple thingslike okay, so if we lined up
this room so that this part ofthe widget is here versus over
(33:16):
there, it would go so much moresmoothly, but instead I have to
walk across the room each timeto go get that thing.
Can we move it?
If you say no, I'm out Likeokay, I'll keep walking across
the room, but I'm going to goslower every single time.
So your question about how doesit manifest or how does it show
up?
It starts in the pullback whereI used to be a full tilt.
Oh my gosh, yes Me, sign me up.
(33:37):
Sign me up Now.
I'm not putting my hand upfirst, like I'm going to wait
and I know I could do it and Iknow I'd be really good at it,
but I'm not going to give you mytalent because it's basically
not appreciated.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yeah, I see that a lot.
That makes a lot of sense.
I can totally relate to that ondifferent levels.
I try to offer a lot of empathyon the podcast for leaders and
people who are in a positionwhere they're stewards of other
people's hearts and time andtalent, because it can be
overwhelming.
Like you're saying, some daysyou're just trying to get
through the day, I get it, andyou've got competing priorities
and you've got deadlines and soyou don't intentionally step
(34:10):
over people, right, and so Ithink there's an empathy for
that.
I say that a lot.
What else is going on in thatperson's life or in their
conversations, or how muchtension are they getting from
their leaders when they aretrying to, like, advocate for
their team or get additionalresources and they're not being
heard and so they're holding itat both sides?
I think Middle management rightwhen we say it's like one of
(34:31):
the hardest positions to be in,and so do you have any, I guess,
recommendations for the leaderswho might feel like they're
unequipped to like shift theirculture and what's maybe one
practical step that they cantake to analyze and improve
their team where they are?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love the way you framed that.
So I think remembering thathurt people hurt people is
important, and I think about ourmiddle managers particularly
where you're right.
If I'm governed a certain way,I'm probably going to govern the
same way, or I'm going to dothe exact opposite because this
is so bad or this is so good,and I don't want to be that
toxic positivity person.
I think the practical thing isto know yourself first, know how
(35:09):
you show up in the workplace,know how you utilize your
talents in the workplace.
If I know me, then I am moreopen to say that's not my
strength.
I need to find somebody who canfill that void Versus
insecurity, because insecurityis often born out of the space
(35:32):
of feeling like you have toappear smarter than you are, or
not feeling psychologically safeenough to say I don't know.
When you operate out ofinsecurity, you tend to lash
right Instead of accept, and soany sort of criticism is going
to be like nope, sorry, I'm out.
So I think, as our sphere ofcontrol is this little bitty
hole right here, our sphere ofinfluence is as big as our arms
will go.
We can only control us.
(35:53):
We're part of that little bittysphere.
We forget that sometimes.
So the simple fact is, if youdon't know yourself well enough
to know your needs, how can youpossibly help other people
figure out theirs?
So know yourself first, and ifyou see yourself operating out
of insecurity, don't be afraidto ask questions.
A giant opening of Pandora'sbox.
(36:31):
You're like, oh my gosh, wait.
You mean, I don't have to haveall the answers and I don't have
to be the only one who can dothis thing, and I don't need to
be the smartest person in theroom.
Yes, our best leaders are theones that recognize that they
shouldn't be the smartest personin the room, and if they are,
they need to find another room.
They need to hire new people,because if we're the only one
capable, we did that toourselves.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's exactly right.
I teach and I work in like thefounder space with coaching and
business leaders and nonprofitleaders.
So there's that foundersyndrome where we're like it's
mine and I have to hold on to it, but trying to get them to the
place where it's like, no, youhave to train somebody else.
You have to get to the placewhere and it's hard it's super
vulnerable, because then you'relike but that's my identity.
But if I am giving myself orgiving this away, or I'm giving
(37:11):
all of these things away, then Ihave no responsibility or I'm
not the one who has the answer.
So then it is a struggle from avulnerability, because then you
start to think, well then whatis my value?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And then the enemy starts to tell us that we're not
worth anything 100% accurateand I think just honestly, as
women, we probably do that thatmuch more Somewhere along the
way.
We were told, right, that ourvalue and our worth was tied to
something and it's not.
We are worthy by ourselves,that's what God made us.
But we screw that up with ourminds quite frequently in saying
(37:43):
yeah but right.
Stop the yeah buts and focusmore on the ands and recognize
that, yeah, we actually dobetter when we give things away.
So I run a team right now that Iabsolutely adore.
They are amazing human beingsand they all have very unique
talents.
And there are other teams inour organization who lead with
(38:03):
an iron fist kind of hold onreally, really tight, and I have
to be the one to call thesuperintendents and I have to be
the one and I have to be theone.
I don't work that way, mostlybecause I at 48, recognize that
I don't have the best answers.
There are spaces where I'mreally really good, but there
are other spaces that otherpeople are really good, and so
in letting my team go and justsay, you know what, go and be
(38:23):
shiny, the feel is fullydifferent and I think that's
what really good leaders dodifferent, and I think that's
what really good leaders do,especially like you're saying
founders who?
this is my baby.
I started this in a garage bymyself and now I have 200
employees.
How do I do that?
I think that's where a lot ofself-reflection has to come in
in order for us to find successin that.
(38:44):
So I'm glad you're tellingpeople how to do that and
guiding them through thatprocess.
It's not an easy one, but gosh,is it important.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
Yeah, I think so too, and I think what you said about
when you talked about thesprinkle, you know, shower, drip
, drip, drip, like that's theother part too.
Right.
We talk about that continuingthe culture, the message and the
values and repeating it, andmaybe a thousand times you may
feel like you've said this athousand times.
This is who we are, this iswhat we're doing, but the
reality is it's a.
It always has to be right infront of us from a visionary
(39:11):
leader perspective, because youdo have all of these different
people with different viewpointsand things that they see and
they hone in on that one thingand it's really good and they
see it.
And so they don't see thisthing over here.
That doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with them.
We get frustrated, we're likewhy didn't you see XYZ?
And they're like not how I'mdesigned, I'm designed to see
(39:31):
this.
And so when you start to seethat, I think in your
organizations and your teams andyour families, even with your
families, you're like oh okay,this is my role, like you're
saying, and this is my.
I use the story of Nehemiah alot from a leadership
perspective in the biblicalstory.
You know, we're rebuilding thewall and it's like every single
person was called to standoutside their home and build
their section of the wall with asword and a shovel one hand,
(39:51):
and they had to look out foreach other.
So I wasn't called to buildsomebody else's wall, like I
wasn't called to go to Christy'shouse and build her wall.
I'm called to build the wallthat's right in front of my home
and I'm equipped to do thatthing.
And so there is just.
I think there's a lot, there'sa distraction and a lot of other
things going on.
So I say all that to say I havegreat empathy and great grace
for the journey.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Oh yeah, well, and I believe with my whole being that
there is not a soul who wakesup in the morning and says I
want to be terrible at my jobtoday.
But some people aren't yetgiven the right tools to be
great, and maybe they're notseeking them, but most of the
time it's that they're notavailable, or they have them and
they haven't practiced usingthem.
It takes 18 times of doingsomething in front of others to
(40:34):
master it, but we tend to say Itried that once in 1987 and it
didn't work, so I'm never goingto do it again.
And the problem with that iswe've missed the opportunity to
get good at something, becauseit really does take practice.
So I encourage leaders oftengive yourself some grace and do
this with a team, because theother phrase that I love to use
(40:55):
is you know, there is only oneway to eat an elephant, and
that's one bite at a time.
However, it's a whole loteasier to eat with friends.
So when you're thinking abouteating that elephant, who on
your team can take a big bite ofthis and who on your team can
take a big bite of that?
Because together we're a wholelot better.
And, like you said, if I'mbuilding this part of the wall.
I don't even see this over here, but you do, and so I'm going
(41:16):
to trust you enough to see thatpart over there and look at it
differently.
I talk a lot about diversity ofthought and having diversity of
thought on your teams, and thatgoes back to the paperclips,
linky, magnifying glass andteddy bear.
If you have a team of teddybears, you are going to love
each other very well and you'renot going to get anything done,
right, because you don't want tostep on any toes and you want
(41:37):
to take care of people.
If you have a team of magnifyingglasses, you are going to get a
lot of stuff done and everybodyis going to be at odds and
miserable with one another,right?
And if you're slinkies, you'regoing to get all the ideas and
you might execute on one of themand you're going to be in need
of a nap later.
And if you are a team ofpaperclips, darn it if you're
(41:58):
not going to be organized butyou're not going to have that
visionary piece that lets youthink outside the box.
So I would challenge thelisteners today to think about
their teams.
Do you know them well enough toknow who those people are on
your team and if you do, are youleveraging their talents?
Or are you asking a paperclipto be a slinky, because that is
a really uncomfortable placethat you're putting that person
(42:19):
in just because it's part oftheir job?
Speaker 1 (42:20):
title.
I think that's so good and wehave the opportunity for most
things to change right, To movethings around like jobs and
roles and things within thecontext of whatever your
organization looks like.
But I think that's really good.
It doesn't always have to stayexactly the same.
There's a better way to do it.
We should totally try.
So what are you working on now?
What's coming up for you?
So it's something you're superexcited about that you want to
(42:41):
share.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, so I have a new company brewing called
Intentionality Group, and what'sso cool about Intentionality
Group is it is a group of humanswho have each had 20 plus years
experience in their space, butwe're coming together to help
organizations improve their well, improve their anything and
everything, but really theirtraining, so that people can be
(43:03):
good at their jobs.
Just like we just said, ifsomebody is being asked to do
something, we have to equip themto do it and do it well.
But what we tend to do is we setthem in front of a module or we
put them into a training, andthe training is the same for
everybody and it's just not welldone.
We can fix that, and so we workwith companies to say, first of
all, where are your deficits,what's the biggest problem
you're trying to solve right now, and then, how can we build
systems to be able to help yousolve them?
(43:24):
It's not that we knoweverything there is to know
about the chemical engineeringcompany, but we do know how to
teach people things and we knowhow to get them to remember the
things they need to know so thatthey don't melt their hands off
because they didn't followprotocol.
So it's a partnership betweenintentionality group and your
company to intentionally look atyour systems and figure out how
(43:44):
to make them work in the bestpossible way for every employee,
by making it safe, logical, funand memorable.
So I'm having so much fun withthat.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That's so good.
Well, that's really good.
Well, we'll put all your linksin the show notes so everybody
can reach out and find you.
Definitely in your book, yeah,and your podcast, for sure.
Again, don't forget to pop overand listen.
It's really good, it's veryencouraging and Christy does a
great job.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Well, and you can hear Danita in that.
You could go listen to herepisode.
I don't remember what number itwas, but we could put that in
the show notes too.
That's very true, yes we'll dothat.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
We'll link them together.
That's very true.
I had a great time on your show, so thank you so much for
sharing space with me.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Well, I had a great time here and thank you so much
for what you're doing and forcontinuing to help people be
able to be sparkly in theirspace and be the best versions
of themselves.
I think you're doing somereally great stuff.
Yes, it was fun, thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Wow, what an incredible conversation.
Dr Christy reminded us todaythat joy in the workplace isn't
about ping pong tables or pizzaparties which I love but it's
about being seen, feeling safeand doing meaningful work with
people who appreciate yourGod-given gifts.
And let's be honest, as leadersit is easy to get caught up in
checklists and policies and thenext big thing, but I hope
(44:55):
today's message reminds you thatculture is built one
interaction at a time.
When we intentionally createspaces where people feel valued,
then we don't have to just makework more fun, we can also make
it more fruitful.
So, as we wrap up, I want toleave you with this one question
when in your leadership rightnow do people feel seen, and
(45:17):
maybe where they might feelinvisible?
Take a minute this week and askyour team or even your family,
what helps them feel safe orvalued and what makes them feel
heard.
You might be surprised by whatyou learn.
I often do.
And, as always, let's rememberto lead with grace and purpose
and with the kind of joy thatreflects the heart of God.
Thanks for joining me today.
(45:38):
Don't forget to check outChristy's book Learning Can
Stick and her Productive Joypodcast.
You will definitely be gladthat you did so.
Until next time, remember thatyou're entrusted to lead and to
keep showing up every day, evenwhen it hurts, because you
matter.
I'll see you later.
Bye.
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