August 21, 2025 • 47 mins
What happens when a simple question from a child completely upends your successful corporate career? Genevieve Peturro never expected her life to take a sudden turn after 12 years of climbing the television industry ladder in New York City. Yet when a little girl in a shelter whispered, "What are pajamas?" everything shifted.
That moment launched Genevieve's extraordinary journey from corporate success to founding the Pajama Program, which has since distributed over 8 million pajamas and books to children across America. Her story challenges us to reconsider how we define success and what truly matters in our leadership journeys.
Through our conversation, Genevieve reveals the profound differences between traditional corporate leadership and leading with love. She dismantles the myth that heart-centered leadership sacrifices effectiveness, showing instead how vulnerability, collaboration, and joy create stronger, more innovative teams. "It's not about control, it's about connection," she emphasizes—a philosophy that transforms workplaces regardless of industry.
For leaders contemplating change, Genevieve offers wisdom from her "jump" into purpose-driven work. She acknowledges the fear that accompanies major transitions but encourages finding cheerleaders who understand your vision. Whether you're considering a dramatic career pivot or simply seeking greater fulfillment in your current role, her practical advice on making "jumps" or "slides" provides a roadmap for authentic living.
Perhaps most moving is Genevieve's insight into how providing comfort changes lives on both sides of the equation. The bedtime rituals many take for granted—clean pajamas, storybooks, a loving presence—offer vulnerable children the essential security and peace they need. Meanwhile, volunteers repeatedly express how their service provides unexpected healing during their own difficult times.
Ready to lead with greater heart and purpose? Connect with Genevieve through her website for her "Lead with Love" tips and a free brainstorming session to explore your next steps. Your greatest impact might be waiting just beyond your comfort zone.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Have you ever had a moment where a child or someone
unexpected asked you a questionthat changed everything?
Well, today, on this episode,we are diving into a powerful
story that was prompted withjust that thing.
It's a thoughtful conversationwith Genevieve Peturro.
She is the founder of thePajama Project and the author of
Purpose, passion and Pajamas.
(00:28):
That's a lot of P words, and weare here today to dive into a
legacy of lessons that she hasand wants to share with the
world.
But really it comes down to howwe, as leaders, lead from the
heart.
So I'm excited for today'sepisode.
Grab a cup of coffee or yourfavorite beverage and let's get
started.
(00:49):
Leadership can feel really heavysometimes, especially when
you're carrying vision andpeople and purpose all on your
shoulders all at the same time.
You have got a big mission, butthe strategy feels fuzzy and
your team is looking at you forclarity that you're not sure you
actually have.
I get it.
It's hard.
I'm Danita Cummins.
(01:09):
I help faith-driven leaderslike you find clarity, align
with your values and lead withconfidence without burning out,
because that's never okay.
If you're ready to get unstuck,lead your team with courage and
to turn that God-given visioninto a strategy that really
works.
I want us to talk.
Take the free leadershipclarity quiz that I've created
(01:30):
today, and I want you toschedule your no-pressure
coaching call, because togetherwe can uncover what's holding
you back and how to move forwardin faith and confidence.
Good morning, interested to Leadfriends, I'm Danita Cummins and
I am joined by GenevievePerturro.
She is the author of Purpose,passion and Pajamas, which is a
(01:51):
mouthful, and I lovealliteration, but super exciting
.
So I'm really glad she's heretoday on the podcast to talk
about her leadership journey andjust her kind of her heart
journey with starting thisnonprofit.
She has a wealth of experiencesI'm sure there are some amazing
and some really hard, and soshe can share a lot of the heart
behind her story today with us,and then also some really great
(02:12):
things that she's working on,some new heart projects that
we're going to dive into alittle bit today as well.
So thank you so much for comingon the show.
How are you today?
I'm great.
How are you?
I am good.
I'm really good.
I'm excited that it's Friday.
I, like most of the people know, I record my podcast on Friday,
even though they don't come outon Fridays, but I'm really
looking forward to a weekendwhere life is a little bit
(02:32):
slower.
So how are you?
You're in New York, is thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I am.
I think it's spring.
It's very rainy, so that's aspring thing, right?
So as long as it's not snow,I'm a happy, happy woman.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's good.
Yeah, we had the pollenArmageddon of like 2025.
What do you guys do?
You have a lot of seasonalpollen and things up there and
where you are in New York, we do.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I don't think it doesn't sound as bad as yours,
but we do yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, that's what we're all struggling with, just
hoping for more rain.
We would appreciate your rain.
If you send it south, I will.
Where are you?
We're in North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh, okay, I have some friends down there, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, about six years ago we bought a farm.
So we live on the edge of theUari National Forest so you can
kind of see my window.
I'm like we're surrounded bypine trees, loblolly and
longleaf pine trees, and somehardwoods, but mostly pine.
And for my husband and I wegrew up in the Midwest so we are
just still amazed today at theforest of how of course it's an
(03:29):
ecosystem, but just the beautyof it and the intricacy of it,
and then also kind of when itcomes in full force in spring,
we're like the forest is awake,it's definitely letting you know
.
So we're navigating that in ournew season of life.
So the first thing I wanted tojust jump into a little bit
about the story of how youstarted the pajama program and I
read a few of the differentpieces of your story, this
(03:51):
journey.
You started it with a singlequestion from a child, which I
think is such a powerful anchor,because when we look at things,
our callings in life, we kindof can come back to this one
simple message or this onesimple piece.
So can you take us back to thatmoment and how that shifted
your perspective on purpose andjust kind of where you are today
, when you look back and reflecthow important was that moment
(04:12):
in your life.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It was very important .
No one ever asked me aboutpurpose.
It was never part of aconversation.
I just wanted a good job.
That's what my family wantedfor me.
That's what everyone I went toschool with wanted.
We wanted good jobs, of course,exciting jobs, and I wanted a
(04:34):
job in television and I got thatjob.
For 12 years I climbed thatcorporate ladder in New York
City and it was exciting.
It was crazy workaholic.
All of us women wanted to go ashigh as we could, break the
glass ceiling, go up to the topand be in the C-suite.
And I was doing all that and Ibought a place and I was doing
everything that following therules of how to be successful.
So, 12 years into that crazylife, I heard a voice in me,
(04:55):
which is the voice that camebefore the little girl's voice,
and it asked me if this is thenext 30 years of your life, is
this enough?
And I realized in moments thatif I kept this lifestyle up in
30 years, I'd still be single, Iwould be tired, I'd have nice
things, but there was anemptiness I felt, and so I
(05:18):
thought I don't know what to dowith this empty.
And all of a sudden I remembereda news clip.
I'd seen the social workerstaking children out of home
they're being hurt in and Icalled up the shelters and I
said is this where police andsocial workers bring these
children?
And they said yes.
And I said, can I come in andread to them?
And they said yes, and that was25 years ago.
(05:39):
And I went in and read and I sawhow broken they were and it
broke my heart.
But after I would read, they'dgo to a room and sleep and that
was a cold cold.
It wasn't like my mom put us tosleep.
You know our beds, our pajamasand stories.
These kids were trying to getcomfortable in their clothes
that didn't fit and that weresoiled.
And I brought pajamas the nexttime and the staff thought that
(06:02):
was so nice, because no onethinks of pajamas, I'm going to
gave them out.
And the little girl asked methat question and that question
was, she whispered to me, whatare pajamas?
That changed everything in mybrain.
It just went collapsing and myheart was breaking more.
And that's the beginning of theend of what I thought I wanted
(06:22):
and the start of a heart-led,purposeful life.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That is so incredibly powerful, I think, for me Maybe
I shared when we first talked.
We have an outreach center thatI have been doing for 15 years.
We started the nonprofit pieceabout I guess it's been eight
years now and that journey ofstarting a nonprofit and doing
the things and in this season ofmy life I see that more and
more.
Like you said, it's like wewere climbing this ladder to
(06:47):
where, where are we going andhow do we define success as
people?
And I've lost a lot of peoplein my life in the last five
years that are really close tome and so I've over and over sat
on the side of the hospital bedor closed out bank accounts and
estates and watching thingsbeing sold in boxes for pennies
(07:07):
on the dollar.
And it's just this very realpiece of my life where I'm like
wait, what?
What are we doing?
What are we doing with the timethat we have?
What are we chasing?
Why am I so exhausted?
And do you feel like you saidthat because you talk about you
had this career and you weredoing all the things?
I like to say I had a big girlpurse and a big girl job with
big girl shoes and a big girlhairdo, I had all the big girl
(07:28):
things.
So you were doing the big girlstuff and then you had that
feeling you know, is this enough?
So were there other early signs, other than that moment where
you felt like that in your heart, like where you felt like you
weren't fully aligned to yourcareer, or maybe there was
something else?
Was there other things that younoticed throughout the day,
other than just that one stillsmall voice?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
No, that voice.
But my father came off the boatfrom Italy and my mom was also
a traditional Italian and thatwas their first born.
So my parents expected me toget married and have children,
grandchildren, and I know my dadexpected that and they would
try to talk up that option asthey saw me trying to get good
(08:08):
jobs, Maybe because I was theoldest and I felt like I'd
helped take care of the otherthree that I wanted out.
You know I wanted to be asuccess as the world saw, but
all that came rushing back likeI think I missed something.
What we had growing up wasprecious.
I loved it and it was nothingagainst them, even though they
(08:32):
felt it was at some point.
So, looking back, I know I justshoved their ideas to the side,
but for me I never had a doubt.
I thought I always knew what Iwanted.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
That's so good.
Yeah, I can see that too.
That makes sense and in atraditional sense.
Just, I don't know, cultureshifts.
I mean, I can even look backfrom my grandmother's life and
how she grew up and the cultureand the environment, like you
said, and what jobs areavailable for her and education
as compared to my mom, ascompared to me, to my daughter,
so, yeah, so I think there are alot of shifts too.
(08:57):
We see, as women in themarketplace, as we go across in
the last 50 years.
So it is definitely a lot oftradition and culture and things
kind of also under the surface.
So you left this structure, Iwould assume, title.
We talk about a lot about thatright from an identity
perspective, but then thestructure and security of
corporate America and this jobthat you had built and then you
(09:18):
launched off into this newnonprofit, this new world.
What advice would you give to aleader who's feeling called to
pivot?
And we'll talk a little bitmore about that, hopefully, as
we go, but I would assume thatwhen you're doing that, there
was this did you struggle withfear or did you struggle with
any of those insecurities andhow did you overcome those in
the beginning?
Yes, everything.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I struggled with everything because I couldn't
talk to anybody.
That purpose is a word we'recomfortable with.
Fulfillment meaning not takinga job because it doesn't fulfill
us.
Nobody spoke like that 20-someyears ago, but it's okay now.
We expect to be fulfilled.
We expect our leaders tounderstand that we need to feel
(10:00):
like we're contributing and thatwe are choosing where to work.
We're not just grateful for anyjob.
So I would say it's a differentworld and I coach a lot of
people and I help with peoplewho want to make a jump or a
slide, and I help either way.
A jump is clearly what I did.
You just take a jump.
You haven't planned as much asyou could have and I have lots
(10:24):
of tips on that.
But also a slide works too,because a lot of people can be
fulfilled if they just bring inthat piano playing, that musical
piece.
They don't have to be a singerIf they want to be and they want
a chance at all.
Go, I'll support that and we'llmake a path.
But sometimes just making roomin your life for what you've
(10:45):
pushed on the back burner, thatfills your life enough to feel
like you have it all.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I love that.
I say crawl, walk, run.
So I'm a huge advocate for thetry before you buy is what I
like to say, and I do coachingand mentoring, a lot more
mentoring than coaching.
But and then we have four kidsthat we've launched three into
the world, and so just being amom and watching them struggle
with that, okay, how can we getyou out there so you can try
this one thing, knowing that assoon as you walk out the door,
(11:13):
life changes.
And then we grieve all of theunmet expectations that we
didn't know that we were holding.
And then we think, oh, I failed.
And you're like no, you didn'tfail, you just you have to start
again.
So I love that that.
You said it's either a jump ora slide.
I love that.
I love that.
A jump or a slide.
So well, do you want to diginto kind of like you said, I
have some advice for that theperson that maybe wants to take
(11:34):
the jump?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Because the slide one , I think my head and what you
mentioned before, the fear andthe worry that was eating at me,
and that was really, reallydifficult and I think if I had
started sharing earlier I wouldhave found my cheerleaders, but
I didn't.
So the first person I went toknocked me down, told me I was
crazy.
Why would I do that?
I'd worked 12 years she had twoin a big organization and I
(12:14):
clammed up again for another sixmonths because I thought I know
I have no answers.
It sounds ridiculous.
Quit a job, a high-paying jobwhere there's a future to give
pajamas to children and I have amortgage.
Of course.
When you say that to yourselfyou say am I crazy?
And then you think, well, maybeI'm not crazy.
And you say to someone else andthey say you're crazy.
(12:34):
You go back into that retreatmode and it took me another six
months to meet a man who turnedout to be my husband I married
him who said he understood heartvoice and he said go for it.
So I think the earlier youstart to tell people that you
trust, the sooner you'll findthose cheerleaders.
And the minute you findcheerleaders you feel like
(12:54):
superwoman.
That's the number one thingthat I tell people to do, to be
honest, to share it.
And again, it's a verydifferent, better world in that
respect now than it was 25 yearsago.
So, but still I get people'strepidation about actually
breathing those words to someonewho sees you as a corporate
success.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
That's so true.
It's interesting we're havingthis conversation today because
my husband actually today is hislast day in corporate America
and he resigned to go after thisor North Carolina, so during
Hurricane Helene.
We've both worked in militarycommunications for decades and
so he's very good.
He's a RF and network engineerand he's just very talented.
He's a creative and he designsthings and he creates things.
(13:37):
So, all that to say, he shortlyafter created a solution, a
mobile communication solution,as a response to Hurricane
Helene, and that was exactlywhat it was.
He was like if one person'slife could be saved, then this
matters.
And so he's actually justtoday's his last day.
So we woke up this morning andwe were like, okay, well, it's
resignation day.
To your point, I think I'm okaywith the, we'll work through it
(14:00):
.
The daily bread, we'll have ourdaily bread.
But it is almost that insanityfeel insane like why am I
walking away from a really goodcorporate job where it's a
guaranteed paycheck, where Iknow that I've got all these
things to go after a dream?
I can personally empathize withthe person on the other side of
the microphone that might begoing through that today.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
It's a big hurdle, I get it.
We base so much of our worth onwhat other people think.
And also, we've invested.
How many years?
I invested 12 years.
Some people have invested 20 ormore, and now they're thinking
about making a change.
Not only is it preposterous,sometimes they might think, but
are there skills you don't have?
Are you going back to school?
Are you starting an entry level?
I mean, it's all so daunting, Iget it.
(14:42):
But only thing that I can saythat I know affects people is
you will never believe how goodyour life can be.
It changes what you feel likewhen you wake up.
It changes the people in yourlife.
It changes so much and you feellike you own yourself.
You just have to close youreyes and feel like what that
(15:03):
would feel like compared to,maybe, the jail.
You feel like you're in to getthe courage to say okay, let's
do it.
And if I'm coaching you, I'mthere 24-7.
I am Because you can slide back, it's so easy to and it's worth
going through the darkness, thelight's there.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
That's so good.
Yeah, Because you're right, itis easy to fear.
Right?
Is really what you're sayingFear, fear of so many things
that we don't even.
They just bubble up and thenyou're like, oh, what is this
when I mean?
Fear is a real thing, that's sotrue.
So when you transitioned fromcorporate America to leading
this nonprofit starting andleading this nonprofit, and so
(15:42):
what leadership lessons did youtake with you?
And then, what things did youhave to leave behind or unlearn
that you found?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Wow this is the perfect question.
I just wrote an article for awebsite asking me to write my
philosophy.
My mindset is.
Leading with love is a mindsetand I do a weekly email to
subscribers leading with lovetips from a friend, and I wrote
the story on this exact answerto your question.
(16:08):
When I started to lead pajamaprogram, obviously I was leading
myself, then there werevolunteers and then there were
staff.
Now I grew up with bosses, withrules, and, like most people in
the eighties, I sat in ameeting.
The boss made the rules, theboss dictated what assignments
you had and in the meeting,mostly we were quiet and he or
(16:29):
she was talking In my case, lotsof he's were talking and we
went away and we did the job.
We came back to, hopefully, thejob.
That was what I expected to belike as a boss in that business.
I was striving for thatcorporate office and I thought
that's the boss's way, that's itwhen I was leading pajama
program, I think because it wasa heartfelt move.
(16:52):
Now, anything you are doingeven if you go from being an
accountant to saying I reallywant to be a veterinarian, or I
really want to be an actuary, orI want to be a veterinarian, or
I really want to be an actuaryor I want to be anything.
It doesn't own a chain ofgrocery stores.
The fact that you are in touchwith what your inner soul says
(17:13):
is your purpose and you want todo.
That's heartfelt.
My work in the TV business wasnot heartfelt and if I had made
a move to do anything it wouldhave been because my heart was
telling me to.
So this is not a nonprofitscenario only.
If you're making a move, it'sbecause something in you is
desperate to express itself andthat's your heart and your soul.
So I was leading with my heartand it was a mix of joy because
(17:38):
I would just be me.
I was being natural in theanswers and collaborating.
I was free to say I have no idea, do you have any ideas?
My bosses would never say thatand I don't think I would have
ever said that.
If I had made it to that topcorner office, I wouldn't have
looked at my team and said Ihave no ideas, do you have any
ideas?
But here I am and you know what.
(18:00):
They had ideas and some of themwere better than mine and some
of them most of them propelledus forward and we were
successful and we are successfuland I think it took me a while
to realize that it was and isheartfelt and meeting with love,
and we see how many leaders noware embracing it, and also
(18:30):
because people are tired of theboss.
It's not a leader.
So leading with love iscompassionate, it's
collaborative, it's inspiring.
Now, I had maybe one boss thatwas on the border of inspiring,
but the rest didn't inspire me.
They more intimidated me.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's very interesting.
I have a lady I'm working withright now mentoring and she just
expressed the same concern.
So I think it's interesting theconnection.
There's probably more peopleout there struggling with that
(19:07):
than maybe I've thought about.
But she was in corporateAmerica working in this very
directive, authoritativeleadership styles.
That's what she learnedleadership and now she's moved
over into a nonprofit and it'sthe heart space, like you said,
is more open, because now we'redoing heart things in this
nonprofit.
But she's struggling to try tofigure out how do I lead in this
environment and who am I?
Because the model that I saw,which is very directive and this
(19:29):
piece, it doesn't fit here andI'm struggling to try to figure
out what skills do I need tolearn as a leader, what things
do I need to work through.
So I think it's a veryinteresting conversation and,
like you're saying, it's reallyback to the doesn't have to be
nonprofit or corporate or in thegovernment space.
I work with a lot of militarypeople and in the government
spaces the heart piece.
(19:50):
I think that's a really greatuniversal connection.
That's really really good and Ithink if you can connect to
those pieces, like you saidbefore, it doesn't have to be
all or none, because the realityis we have food, clothing,
shelter that we all have to have, and so I think that's the
piece too.
I think we struggle with thewell, I wanted to be a rock star
and I can't do anything andyou're like no, there's so many
(20:12):
other ways that you canvolunteer or love, or grow or
let your heart and your soulexpress itself in the world
without being so restrictive.
So we didn't start with this.
But do you want to telleverybody what the pajama
program is?
Because we just jumped rightinto your story but I didn't
give you a chance to kind oftell.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
What did the nonprofit turn into and what is
it today?
Well, I started bringing bagsand bags of new pajamas and new
books, storybooks, to theshelters because I knew that,
instinctively knew, and in timeI realized I instinctively knew
the storybooks would take theirmind off their fears.
These little ones were soafraid being taken from a place
where, even though it washurting you, the only place you
(20:54):
knew, to the strange place, notknowing where you're going.
I can't imagine the trauma.
But I was hoping thatstorybooks would ease their
minds looking at the pictures.
They listened when I read thestories, even though some of
them cried and they were afraid.
There's something justmagically in a storybook
pictures and the words.
If they can read them, that'ssoothing.
(21:14):
And then, of course, thepajamas, and I gave the ones
that would fit each child.
They were soft and warm andclean.
So I think that comfort piecewas what made the difference in
what I saw in them from themoment I entered to then seeing
them in pajamas with a book,holding onto a book after I've
(21:35):
read one.
So that became addictive for meto keep bringing new pajamas and
new books and people wanted tohelp.
So that's how it started and Isaid you know what?
That's all I can manage A newpair of pajamas and a new book.
I was.
Credit card bills were crazy.
They were taking credit cardaway from me.
I said there's no way I can doanything else.
(21:59):
And then I started chippingwhen people heard what I was
doing and that was an expensethat added to my financial ruin
or so to speak.
So I didn't realize thatstaying in my little niche of
new pajamas and new books,that's it was so special, but it
was because it was easy forother people to help me to do.
And we did that for a long timeand it grew and I transferred
my executive director.
I passed the baton after 20years of being executive
director to Jamie, who was apresident of our board, who said
(22:22):
if you ever do want to go andspeak and inspire people to
listen to their heart and youwant to write your books, please
put my name to the board.
And we did and she was voted in.
So she has grown a little bit,not too far off from what we do,
but including the bedtimeroutine, because none of us get
sleep right Now.
It's a crazy world that we'veall discovered.
(22:43):
We're losing sleep.
It's affecting everything andthe children who've been through
trauma and who are living withfamily or no family experience
it in such a detrimental waybecause it's going to stay with
them from a child through theirlife that stain of fear at
nighttime and trauma, and sothey're afraid to close their
(23:06):
eyes for a lot of reasons.
So incorporating that downtimeand teaching whoever's taking
care of them family orcaregivers the necessary time
with pajamas and a book that achild needs to find a relaxing
place is so important.
So it's about the bedtime, loveand the comfort and security
(23:30):
and peace, and we all seek that.
So we're trying to make surethat the children get as much as
possible.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, I think that's so powerful.
I think about that too.
With our kids growing up,bedtime was very much an
intentional space and we were inthe military so there was a lot
of unknown, unpredictable life,but bedtime just always became
this very special, veryintentional space like getting
your jammies and all the routineand the structure.
Obviously, as a mom, you knowbecause I was alone a lot when
(23:59):
my husband was gone or when Iwas in the military deploying
things.
So I think the thing that weoften miss, like you said, is
the comfort and the safety andthe security and the stability
that children really need andhow important and powerful that
is.
And when it's gone or when it'smissing, it's just one more
element that you don't reallyconsider.
We just kind of get up and wedo our thing and we don't
(24:22):
realize all the things thatthey're missing and how
detrimental and lasting I thinkthat is.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
And one more thing that you know as a mom and I
learned I am not a mom I don'tfeel like I am on the same level
as you and as moms that's avery different, more significant
role.
So I think that's beautiful,but that bonding at bedtime is
missing for the children most ofthe time.
Night, when I would climb intobed and my mom would come to
(24:50):
each of the four of on a smallsurface in the clothes that
didn't fit and they're cryingWhere's that?
Mommy's here, and mommy will behere tomorrow morning.
(25:20):
And if we didn't feel well, thefour of us still kid as adults.
We would whisper mom and fromdownstairs she would run
upstairs.
And that bonding I've heard fromso many of our supporters over
the years.
They would tell me storiesabout what their child revealed,
their fear.
Or tomorrow I have a test and Ididn't study, mom, I'm really
afraid.
Or worse.
Or just I love you.
(25:42):
I feel really happy today, mom,I'm so glad I got an A.
Or I'm so glad I got a puppy.
Or so glad I helped you makedinner.
I mean those moments theysupport us or in the worst cases
, for some of these kids, theylast that loneliness.
So I learned how preciousbedtime is, and so I was just so
(26:03):
grateful to have an opportunityto provide some comfort, even
if I was invisible.
We were all invisible to thechild, and a box arrived.
It still said to them somebodycares.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, that you matter .
That's so powerful, and I thinkit is.
It's just such a powerful spacebecause we look at the
suffering of the world and wethink, well, what can I do with
the $3 or three days that I haveand you were able to with a
team?
I say that because I totallyunderstand being a founder and
starting something at twoo'clock in the morning and your
brain is squirreling and you'relike I have to stop the pain and
(26:38):
I don't know how.
And then I say very much for myfaith.
One person gets brought in andanother person gets brought in.
And so now I say to volunteerswhen they come I have no idea
why you're here, and I just saythat to them in the openness of
like I don't know why God sentyou, I don't know what your
heart is saying.
I don't know your heart story.
I don't know what your soul islooking for.
I know none of those things.
My job is to steward you andyour heart for the time in which
(27:01):
you're entrusted to me.
But that's a partnership.
I need you to meet me halfway.
That's you saying to God use me.
Yeah, that's right, open hands.
I have no idea.
But and why are you bringingthese people to me because I
don't know what to do with them,and there's always someone who
has a new tool or a new ideathat gets us to the next level.
So I got feedback just yesterdayfrom a guy who's on our board,
who's a great, a wonderfulmentor to me now and supporting
(27:24):
us, the thing he said which wasso, so sweet to me.
He says I said thank you foreverything that you do, mike,
thanks for everything.
And he said thanks for givingme an opportunity.
And so I think, just from onefounder to another, thanks for
giving the opportunity to people, thanks for being brave enough
to put yourself out there withthe $3 and the three days that
(27:45):
you had to just be like I'mgoing to help this one kid, and
if I can just help this one,then two kids, then four, then
however many, so it's been 25years.
You said 25 years kids, thenfour, then however many, so it's
been 25 years.
You said 25 years.
So how many numbers do you guyshave?
Statistics turned to how manyfamilies you've helped, or
whatever?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
More than 8 million pajamas and books have been
distributed around the US in40-some chapters, and it's
growing and it's a beautifulthing.
I want to say back to yourvolunteer experience.
You hit it on the head.
I never realized how much wewere helping donors and
volunteers, and I see why hesaid thank you for the
opportunity.
(28:20):
People want to help.
They don't know how until theyfind what touches their heart.
Then they're like oh, I got togo there, that's calling me.
But I can tell you and youprobably know this or you will
we would have children and wewould have volunteers come to
read to the children and wewould count on those volunteers.
Right, we didn't.
We didn't want 12 children andtwo volunteers.
It was heartbreaking, right?
So we'd all make it work.
(28:41):
I can't tell you how many timesa volunteer would pull me aside
and say I almost didn't cometoday.
You wouldn't believe what'sgoing on in my life, but I
forgot everything in this hourand a half.
I forgot everything.
Thank you.
(29:01):
The first time I heard that Ididn't even get it when I got it
.
That's the opportunity that'sas meaningful as the work you
set out to do is how you areaffecting people who want to
help.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That's so good.
It's interesting you say thatbecause we just talked about
that last week, I think on weall have all of our own stuff
and I think that's a big part ofnot stepping out in faith, not
trying.
I wrote a book last year notabout my book, but about promise
over purpose, but it basicallyis like you know, god tells us
to love him with our heart, soul, mind and strength, which will
(29:26):
take a lifetime.
That's a lifetime journeyperiod and to love your neighbor
as yourself, and you can dothat in a billion different ways
.
And so we stay over here andbeing overwhelmed by our life is
completely valid, and somepeople are carrying really hard,
heavy things, like you said.
But there is such anopportunity for you to just show
love to one other person, andit doesn't have to be big, it
(29:47):
doesn't have to be grand, likeyou're saying.
It can have such an impact injust a very small, tiny piece of
just showing up.
So I think that's reallypowerful.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I'm anxious to say, because you are hitting all the
parts of my heart that are soexcited to be awakened after
climbing the corporate ladderand I'm just feel like they're
so free.
But you're touching on so manythings and what we're talking
about it has to do with business, not just nonprofit.
We're not talking about warm,fuzzy stuff that we volunteer or
we start nonprofits to do.
(30:17):
We're talking aboutrelationships in an office of
million-dollar companies wherepeople are making salaries and
the more they make, more powerto them.
As long as this is theenvironment that we're speaking
of, that they embrace, that theynurture there, that our
supporters, our donors, aretheir teams.
Their purpose can be to make abox, it can be to sell a potato
(30:40):
chip.
People love these things, theyuse these things, they're
filling a need.
It doesn't have to be anonprofit, it just has to be
heart-led.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
That's how I feel that's so important.
I think that that's the wholereason why I started the podcast
was because I feel like we areentrusted with the care and
safekeeping of other people, andthat is such an important piece
, right, I think, other thanparenting, it's a privilege,
right?
Yeah, exactly, and so you'reright.
People bring all of theirselves to the workplace every
day.
They bring their good and theirbad, and they're happy and
(31:10):
they're sad, and the humanstanding in front of you matters
, like you're saying.
It doesn't have to be anonprofit or you're saving lives
every day, but that personthat's in front of you still
matters, and they want the heartconnection.
Like, I think that's the otherpart too.
I learned years ago in themilitary when I was working.
I have this optimisticperception that everyone wants
to do good in the world, and itwas just like they genuinely do
(31:32):
want to be successful.
They want to make a difference.
They're just struggling tofigure out how they need to turn
left or you need to turn right.
I just have a lot more empathyfor teams that are struggling
with that stuff, like you'resaying.
So people really do.
Potato chip making does matterin the world.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
It does.
It's not about control, it'sabout connection, and I read
that somewhere.
I'm trying to remember if itwas someone's quote or I just
read it in some kind of adescription.
But that was exactly right.
It's not about control, it'sabout connection, and that's
what you inspire and that's howpeople will want to support and
follow you and be on your team.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's right, yeah, but there's a balance, I think,
as a leader, right.
So I would like your thoughtson this in terms of how do you
scale this?
Like the mission, the heartwork, but then you still have to
implement this structure andstrategy and the business
mindset.
So, as you left corporate andwent and started the nonprofit
and then grew, this team hasgrown.
How does a leader do both?
What do they?
(32:28):
How do they do?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
both.
The person I look to and I wishI could say I knew him is
Richard Branson.
I quote him a lot.
I do a lot about joy and lovein the workplace and he and his
daughter freely talk about thefun that they have with their
teams and purposely make thingsfun and plan fun things.
And I think none of that takesaway from everybody knowing you
(32:52):
are the leader.
But everybody will take awaythat you are human and that you
wanted to connect with them andhave fun and laugh.
And it's okay to spend anafternoon, no last minute, with
a free lunch and monopoly orcharades or something.
How wonderful is that?
So there are goals and sometimesin that atmosphere of a
(33:16):
surprise joyful event or just alet's all have coffee or let me
take an hour with groups ofpeople for this month of July
and get to know everyone, nobodyforgets you're the leader.
You can take all theopportunity you want to talk
about goals, but you can askalso.
I am open to ideas.
(33:38):
You can say this is how I'veset it out, but Lord knows, I'm
not the only one with an ideaand I would welcome because if
you are here it means we believeyou can contribute something
and feel free anytime my door isopen.
None of that says walk all overme, I'm not really taking
leadership seriously.
It's saying I have enoughself-confidence in my people and
(34:00):
new and rising stars that youhave ideas that are worth
millions and if you bring themto us and you share your
opinions, you're going to shinea light on things that some of
us are just so focused on oneway we don't see.
It's about not being afraid tobe vulnerable.
It's about not being afraid tolose control.
(34:22):
It's about not being afraidthat people won't see you as the
big boss and bow down.
That's going away, and I thinkthat that's healthy.
I agree with you too, and Ithink the other thing that that
creates is it creates ownership.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I think with you too, and I think the other thing
that that creates is it createsownership.
I think, like you said, fromthe person.
Now they're invested, and youwant employees to be invested in
your business.
You want employees that arecommitted to the mission and the
cause, even if it is buildingtank engines or whatever they
are, but you want peoplecommitted to your mission of the
organization, and when you givethem a voice, then, yeah,
(34:56):
they're the best people who knowhow to do their job better,
anyway, we would hope becausethey're the ones on the front
lines every day.
So, yeah, I think that's sogood.
I can see that too.
This inclusive leadership.
It's getting a little bit more.
I won't say common, but it'sdefinitely the language right is
being presented in the world.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
But it's also on us.
It's on people who are beinghired, people who are looking
for jobs, and I coach a lot ofpeople who are new to the
working world and I always sayyou are worth every penny that
you want to make.
You are worth if you're goingfor a job.
You are worth it.
And you can say can you tell mewhat you do for the community?
You can ask questions, you canhold the company accountable.
(35:35):
You can say can you tell mewhat you do for the community?
You can ask questions, you canhold the company accountable.
You can say this is where Ifeel I can make a contribution
and I really want to join acompany where I can grow and I
can be creative in this way.
Speak what you want.
It's your decision.
I remember going for a job,thinking oh, I hope I get the
job.
I hope I get the job.
I hope I get the job.
(35:59):
I hope I get the job.
I hope I get the job.
Nevermind, I hope it's a goodjob for me.
I hope I like it.
It is being reversed.
I just think we just also needto be mindful of how we present
ourselves.
So it isn't coming off asselfish, but it's coming off.
As I'm willing to be a teamplayer, I just want to make sure
you understand where I am.
Otherwise neither of us isgoing to be happy in three
months.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I say that a lot to you.
With people I'm like we're notvictims in the 21st century
workforce really.
I mean we do have layoffs and Ihave some friends who are
working through the, I say, thedoge debacle right now, that
work for the federal governmentin different fashions.
So I don't say that in a like alightly, just skip over it, but
because things do happen to usthat are outside of our control
always.
(36:36):
But we do have much more of avoice, like you said, and we do
have that ability.
It's a contractual agreement.
I kind of come to it like I'mgoing to give this much for a
certain amount of money,obviously, but I just want to
make sure it's a reciprocalrelationship and we don't often
think of that as employment thatyou do have a voice that you
can say I don't align with thevalues.
(36:56):
I think it goes a lot back tovalues too.
We don't often know what ourvalues are.
Like you're saying, you kind ofget to these places in your
life where maybe there's a heartmoment that sparks you or a
tragedy or something hard, oryou're sitting on the bathroom
floor like I don't want to dothis anymore, but I feel like
there's a big disconnect betweenwhat we as our heart and soul,
what we value, and being able tofind that, to put words around
(37:20):
it and then you can measure doesthis opportunity align with my
values?
Well, I don't even know what myvalues are because I've never
even asked.
So I think it's so important toyour point because then we'd
maybe hopefully have a lot lessgrumbly people.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
It's also work, life and health balance.
We can see health.
We can see the issues that arecoming up because we've been
overworked or we're not speakingour piece or we feel, I believe
, that how you feel dictates somuch of your physical ailments
and depression, and especiallythe kids these days are having
(37:55):
troubles.
It's just when you join a group, any kind of a group you have
to make sure that you'll findears that understand health,
life, work balance and that it'ssupported, that you aren't
expected to work as a maniac,unless you know that it's
presented to you and you are allin.
(38:16):
But I think it's fair forsomebody who's looking for a job
to say this is my situation.
I will give 100%.
I want to know have youstructured anything about
work-life health balance?
You know, is there somethingyou can tell me about that
experience you've had, or is itrelevant here?
Is it a conversation in thisorganization?
Speaker 1 (38:37):
No, I think that's super helpful and I appreciate
that you give language, becausesometimes we don't know.
You're like I don't know howwould I even say that?
So, because, again, it's not.
These are the five questions Iwant to ask on my next job
interview.
But you're right, it's so mucha part of who we are and it
affects us, whether we know itor not, in a very big, deep way,
and I think that's a big pieceof it too.
And then just you, you'rewilling to accept that.
(38:59):
So I think that's the piece Igo back to.
Sometimes we accept positions oraccept jobs, or we're in
situations and we don't know,and expectation management.
Again we get in and we're likethis isn't what I thought it was
going to be, but we do alwayshave a voice.
So I think that's superimportant.
Is there any advice that youhave around how to rally a team
around a vision that flows fromyour personal calling?
(39:20):
You had to kind of do that fromthe ground up and then now
you're doing a lot of coachingand teaching and you're writing.
So what advice do you have forpeople?
This is probably a selfishquestion for myself, but how do
we do that to really get a teamaround this vision that you have
or that someone has.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Well, I think it's important for a leader to share
his or her story and it's a lotof times emotional and share it
that way.
Share it that way.
Share it that way.
If you have to stop and collectyourself because something is
sensitive to you or somethinghappened, take the moment, let
people see how this has touchedyou, because they will feel it.
(39:57):
And also it's important to knowwhy the other person is drawn
to you in the first place or tothe job in the first place.
So ask it's good to ask in aninterview, it's good to ask if
the leader has five minutes orwhen a leader has a lunch break
with the new hires what excitesyou about being here or what's
your situation and how can wehelp fill whatever void there is
(40:21):
.
If there's a feeling of somekind of common ground whether
it's the purpose of theorganization or if it's changing
lives in a certain way, or ifit's people first and products
will follow they have to decidewhat is the common thread
between the leader's vision andeach employee.
(40:43):
There's got to be somethingmore than I just need a job.
I mean.
I guess we'll always have thatamount of people, but it should
be the least amount of peoplewith that reason for being there
than most, and I think thatthat is a part of the interview
process.
Why are you here?
And it could be I'm notinterested in your product, but
I love that you support this.
Tell me why you support thisand then the leader can say you
(41:07):
know, I had a child who this orone of our employees, this or
always loved pets, always lovedsomething and throw it right
back.
Why does that touch you?
And you'll hear a personalstory.
You know I do retreats andthings and that's such an
important question and I usuallyask share a story about you and
your best friend.
And then I'll say and that caninclude your pet, and things
(41:30):
come out.
You know I'm not asking youabout necessarily your wife or
certain specifics, but tell meabout a story of you and your
best friend or you and your pet.
And that's when people get softand heartfelt and that's the
time to do that, that's the timeto share that.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, do you want to talk alittle bit about your new heart
project that you're working onand how we can help support you
or the different things thatyou're doing?
I know we didn't get a chanceto dive into that, but I know
that's a big part of what isimportant to you right now.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, it's sharing that.
Leading with love is a mindset.
You wake up every morning andone of the tips is you wake up
and you say how can I connectpeople today?
And you walk in with thatintention and you trust your
heart.
And maybe it's the day when yousay we're going to play
charades.
It sounds crazy, but free lunchand we're going to play
(42:20):
charades today.
Or you find someone who canplay the guitar.
You see what somebody is a golfpro and you say listen, you
know there are people here loveto hear you play or love some
golf tips.
Why don't we schedule a Fridayevery month and we'll find the
experts here and we can sayso-and-so.
Anybody want to learn aboutgolf.
We're going to have one of ourown teaches tricks about golf or
(42:44):
play some music or something.
But if you open to that kind ofa relationship with your team,
the ideas are just going to come.
They're just going to come and,like I said, you can use that
opportunity when people arelaughing and playing games or
listening to music to say we'rea little behind on our goal.
Everybody, I could use somehelp.
(43:05):
I've exhausted all my resources.
None of us on the A team.
This is where we can figure itout.
I know you guys are on the frontlines Got any ideas and it's a
very different atmosphere.
It's a very open, inclusiveatmosphere to get work done,
trying to find someone that youdon't know well and say, why
(43:25):
don't we have a cup of coffee?
And I bet you most people wouldbe thrilled and also
intimidated that the top personis asking.
But that will take downbarriers too and open doors.
And I have a friend, kelly, andshe runs a company and whenever
there's a new hire she writes apersonal welcome card.
How great is that?
I mean I would love to havegotten a welcome card with my
(43:46):
name on it, signed by my topboss.
Isn't that a great idea?
I told her I'm going to usethat.
I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That's so good, the little things that really do
make a difference.
Yeah, we used to get birthdaycards from the general and that
was like handwritten notes fromthe general and the SES.
You know they would send youwhen I worked with the army off
for a while and that was supercool because you have like a
little letter on your desk fromthe general and it was a
handwritten note.
He was like hey, danita, Iappreciate what you did on this
project or whatever, whatever,and you're just like man.
(44:13):
Okay, it does matter.
It's a big organization with3000 people in this building,
but my little piece ofcontribution actually does
matter every day.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
So was seen.
Yeah, it was acknowledged.
(44:48):
Yes, yeah, I'm seen.
That's right, I know that wasbeautiful Kudos.
To the general yeah, very true,I learned a lot of our lessons
come from those of you who speakand write about love in
business.
You don't get any more down tobusiness than when you're
fighting for your life.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
That's very true.
I think I've seen that.
I say that leadership, the wayI see leadership, is not what we
would think of the world.
It's the silent warriors whoare bonded.
Yeah, they're the quiet guys inthe world.
You know, it's the silentwarriors who are Bonded.
Yeah, they're the quiet guys inthe back.
We'll give literally their lifefor you.
It's just a powerful thing tosee.
Yeah, well, I know you said youhave like a gift.
You're working on a couple ofnew projects.
(45:17):
Do you wanna share a little bitabout that and then how people
can connect with you andcontinue this conversation?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Sure, anybody who's thinking about changing, sliding
, jumping, whatever, looking forfulfillment in work, certainly
contact me for a free hourbrainstorming.
I can listen, I can offerwhatever I can do.
You can find that on my website.
Just sign up for my lead withlove, tips from a friend, all
(45:43):
those emails, and I'm happy tohelp any way I can.
Teaching and speaking onleading with love, that's so
good.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
It's so needed in the world today.
I can't imagine we need anyless love from the lens of
leadership for sure in the worldthat we live in today.
So it has been a pleasure and ablessing to spend time with you
.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Thank you so much oh, I feel the strain and thank you
for your service.
I wanted to say that.
Make sure I said that to you,thank you, thank you very much
and to your husband,congratulations to him too.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Thanks, I'll let you know if it's a jump or a slide,
we'll keep updated, but I'll putall the links in the show notes
, and it has been a pleasure.
Please let me know if we canever help with you.
So thank you.
Hey.
Friends, thanks for joining metoday on my call.
(46:30):
I had an amazing time listeningand learning from Genevieve, and
so here's the question I wantto ask you as we wrap up today
when was the last time that youchecked in with your heart about
your leadership journey?
I know we talk about the heartthing a lot on this podcast
because it's super important,friend, and so today I hope that
you learned a lot of lessonsand got to be inspired by
(46:52):
Genevieve's story, thechallenges, the fear that she
overcame in order to bring thispowerful message to the world,
and I hope that encourages youand strengthens you and gives
you hope and challenges you alittle bit to move outside your
comfort zone Because, as weoften say, you only have one
life to live, right?
So I just want to remind youkeep showing up every day, even
(47:15):
when it hurts, because youmatter.
Okay, friends, have an amazingday.
I'll see you later.
Bye.
Have you ever had a moment where a child or someone
unexpected asked you a questionthat changed everything?
Well, today, on this episode,we are diving into a powerful
story that was prompted withjust that thing.
It's a thoughtful conversationwith Genevieve Peturro.
She is the founder of thePajama Project and the author of
Purpose, passion and Pajamas.
(00:28):
That's a lot of P words, and weare here today to dive into a
legacy of lessons that she hasand wants to share with the
world.
But really it comes down to howwe, as leaders, lead from the
heart.
So I'm excited for today'sepisode.
Grab a cup of coffee or yourfavorite beverage and let's get
started.
(00:49):
Leadership can feel really heavysometimes, especially when
you're carrying vision andpeople and purpose all on your
shoulders all at the same time.
You have got a big mission, butthe strategy feels fuzzy and
your team is looking at you forclarity that you're not sure you
actually have.
I get it.
It's hard.
I'm Danita Cummins.
(01:09):
I help faith-driven leaderslike you find clarity, align
with your values and lead withconfidence without burning out,
because that's never okay.
If you're ready to get unstuck,lead your team with courage and
to turn that God-given visioninto a strategy that really
works.
I want us to talk.
Take the free leadershipclarity quiz that I've created
(01:30):
today, and I want you toschedule your no-pressure
coaching call, because togetherwe can uncover what's holding
you back and how to move forwardin faith and confidence.
Good morning, interested to Leadfriends, I'm Danita Cummins and
I am joined by GenevievePerturro.
She is the author of Purpose,passion and Pajamas, which is a
(01:51):
mouthful, and I lovealliteration, but super exciting
.
So I'm really glad she's heretoday on the podcast to talk
about her leadership journey andjust her kind of her heart
journey with starting thisnonprofit.
She has a wealth of experiencesI'm sure there are some amazing
and some really hard, and soshe can share a lot of the heart
behind her story today with us,and then also some really great
(02:12):
things that she's working on,some new heart projects that
we're going to dive into alittle bit today as well.
So thank you so much for comingon the show.
How are you today?
I'm great.
How are you?
I am good.
I'm really good.
I'm excited that it's Friday.
I, like most of the people know, I record my podcast on Friday,
even though they don't come outon Fridays, but I'm really
looking forward to a weekendwhere life is a little bit
(02:32):
slower.
So how are you?
You're in New York, is thatcorrect?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I am.
I think it's spring.
It's very rainy, so that's aspring thing, right?
So as long as it's not snow,I'm a happy, happy woman.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's good.
Yeah, we had the pollenArmageddon of like 2025.
What do you guys do?
You have a lot of seasonalpollen and things up there and
where you are in New York, we do.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I don't think it doesn't sound as bad as yours,
but we do yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah, that's what we're all struggling with, just
hoping for more rain.
We would appreciate your rain.
If you send it south, I will.
Where are you?
We're in North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh, okay, I have some friends down there, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, about six years ago we bought a farm.
So we live on the edge of theUari National Forest so you can
kind of see my window.
I'm like we're surrounded bypine trees, loblolly and
longleaf pine trees, and somehardwoods, but mostly pine.
And for my husband and I wegrew up in the Midwest so we are
just still amazed today at theforest of how of course it's an
(03:29):
ecosystem, but just the beautyof it and the intricacy of it,
and then also kind of when itcomes in full force in spring,
we're like the forest is awake,it's definitely letting you know
.
So we're navigating that in ournew season of life.
So the first thing I wanted tojust jump into a little bit
about the story of how youstarted the pajama program and I
read a few of the differentpieces of your story, this
(03:51):
journey.
You started it with a singlequestion from a child, which I
think is such a powerful anchor,because when we look at things,
our callings in life, we kindof can come back to this one
simple message or this onesimple piece.
So can you take us back to thatmoment and how that shifted
your perspective on purpose andjust kind of where you are today
, when you look back and reflecthow important was that moment
(04:12):
in your life.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
It was very important .
No one ever asked me aboutpurpose.
It was never part of aconversation.
I just wanted a good job.
That's what my family wantedfor me.
That's what everyone I went toschool with wanted.
We wanted good jobs, of course,exciting jobs, and I wanted a
(04:34):
job in television and I got thatjob.
For 12 years I climbed thatcorporate ladder in New York
City and it was exciting.
It was crazy workaholic.
All of us women wanted to go ashigh as we could, break the
glass ceiling, go up to the topand be in the C-suite.
And I was doing all that and Ibought a place and I was doing
everything that following therules of how to be successful.
So, 12 years into that crazylife, I heard a voice in me,
(04:55):
which is the voice that camebefore the little girl's voice,
and it asked me if this is thenext 30 years of your life, is
this enough?
And I realized in moments thatif I kept this lifestyle up in
30 years, I'd still be single, Iwould be tired, I'd have nice
things, but there was anemptiness I felt, and so I
(05:18):
thought I don't know what to dowith this empty.
And all of a sudden I remembereda news clip.
I'd seen the social workerstaking children out of home
they're being hurt in and Icalled up the shelters and I
said is this where police andsocial workers bring these
children?
And they said yes.
And I said, can I come in andread to them?
And they said yes, and that was25 years ago.
(05:39):
And I went in and read and I sawhow broken they were and it
broke my heart.
But after I would read, they'dgo to a room and sleep and that
was a cold cold.
It wasn't like my mom put us tosleep.
You know our beds, our pajamasand stories.
These kids were trying to getcomfortable in their clothes
that didn't fit and that weresoiled.
And I brought pajamas the nexttime and the staff thought that
(06:02):
was so nice, because no onethinks of pajamas, I'm going to
gave them out.
And the little girl asked methat question and that question
was, she whispered to me, whatare pajamas?
That changed everything in mybrain.
It just went collapsing and myheart was breaking more.
And that's the beginning of theend of what I thought I wanted
(06:22):
and the start of a heart-led,purposeful life.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
That is so incredibly powerful, I think, for me Maybe
I shared when we first talked.
We have an outreach center thatI have been doing for 15 years.
We started the nonprofit pieceabout I guess it's been eight
years now and that journey ofstarting a nonprofit and doing
the things and in this season ofmy life I see that more and
more.
Like you said, it's like wewere climbing this ladder to
(06:47):
where, where are we going andhow do we define success as
people?
And I've lost a lot of peoplein my life in the last five
years that are really close tome and so I've over and over sat
on the side of the hospital bedor closed out bank accounts and
estates and watching thingsbeing sold in boxes for pennies
(07:07):
on the dollar.
And it's just this very realpiece of my life where I'm like
wait, what?
What are we doing?
What are we doing with the timethat we have?
What are we chasing?
Why am I so exhausted?
And do you feel like you saidthat because you talk about you
had this career and you weredoing all the things?
I like to say I had a big girlpurse and a big girl job with
big girl shoes and a big girlhairdo, I had all the big girl
(07:28):
things.
So you were doing the big girlstuff and then you had that
feeling you know, is this enough?
So were there other early signs, other than that moment where
you felt like that in your heart, like where you felt like you
weren't fully aligned to yourcareer, or maybe there was
something else?
Was there other things that younoticed throughout the day,
other than just that one stillsmall voice?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
No, that voice.
But my father came off the boatfrom Italy and my mom was also
a traditional Italian and thatwas their first born.
So my parents expected me toget married and have children,
grandchildren, and I know my dadexpected that and they would
try to talk up that option asthey saw me trying to get good
(08:08):
jobs, Maybe because I was theoldest and I felt like I'd
helped take care of the otherthree that I wanted out.
You know I wanted to be asuccess as the world saw, but
all that came rushing back likeI think I missed something.
What we had growing up wasprecious.
I loved it and it was nothingagainst them, even though they
(08:32):
felt it was at some point.
So, looking back, I know I justshoved their ideas to the side,
but for me I never had a doubt.
I thought I always knew what Iwanted.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
That's so good.
Yeah, I can see that too.
That makes sense and in atraditional sense.
Just, I don't know, cultureshifts.
I mean, I can even look backfrom my grandmother's life and
how she grew up and the cultureand the environment, like you
said, and what jobs areavailable for her and education
as compared to my mom, ascompared to me, to my daughter,
so, yeah, so I think there are alot of shifts too.
(08:57):
We see, as women in themarketplace, as we go across in
the last 50 years.
So it is definitely a lot oftradition and culture and things
kind of also under the surface.
So you left this structure, Iwould assume, title.
We talk about a lot about thatright from an identity
perspective, but then thestructure and security of
corporate America and this jobthat you had built and then you
(09:18):
launched off into this newnonprofit, this new world.
What advice would you give to aleader who's feeling called to
pivot?
And we'll talk a little bitmore about that, hopefully, as
we go, but I would assume thatwhen you're doing that, there
was this did you struggle withfear or did you struggle with
any of those insecurities andhow did you overcome those in
the beginning?
Yes, everything.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I struggled with everything because I couldn't
talk to anybody.
That purpose is a word we'recomfortable with.
Fulfillment meaning not takinga job because it doesn't fulfill
us.
Nobody spoke like that 20-someyears ago, but it's okay now.
We expect to be fulfilled.
We expect our leaders tounderstand that we need to feel
(10:00):
like we're contributing and thatwe are choosing where to work.
We're not just grateful for anyjob.
So I would say it's a differentworld and I coach a lot of
people and I help with peoplewho want to make a jump or a
slide, and I help either way.
A jump is clearly what I did.
You just take a jump.
You haven't planned as much asyou could have and I have lots
(10:24):
of tips on that.
But also a slide works too,because a lot of people can be
fulfilled if they just bring inthat piano playing, that musical
piece.
They don't have to be a singerIf they want to be and they want
a chance at all.
Go, I'll support that and we'llmake a path.
But sometimes just making roomin your life for what you've
(10:45):
pushed on the back burner, thatfills your life enough to feel
like you have it all.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I love that.
I say crawl, walk, run.
So I'm a huge advocate for thetry before you buy is what I
like to say, and I do coachingand mentoring, a lot more
mentoring than coaching.
But and then we have four kidsthat we've launched three into
the world, and so just being amom and watching them struggle
with that, okay, how can we getyou out there so you can try
this one thing, knowing that assoon as you walk out the door,
(11:13):
life changes.
And then we grieve all of theunmet expectations that we
didn't know that we were holding.
And then we think, oh, I failed.
And you're like no, you didn'tfail, you just you have to start
again.
So I love that that.
You said it's either a jump ora slide.
I love that.
I love that.
A jump or a slide.
So well, do you want to diginto kind of like you said, I
have some advice for that theperson that maybe wants to take
(11:34):
the jump?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Because the slide one , I think my head and what you
mentioned before, the fear andthe worry that was eating at me,
and that was really, reallydifficult and I think if I had
started sharing earlier I wouldhave found my cheerleaders, but
I didn't.
So the first person I went toknocked me down, told me I was
crazy.
Why would I do that?
I'd worked 12 years she had twoin a big organization and I
(12:14):
clammed up again for another sixmonths because I thought I know
I have no answers.
It sounds ridiculous.
Quit a job, a high-paying jobwhere there's a future to give
pajamas to children and I have amortgage.
Of course.
When you say that to yourselfyou say am I crazy?
And then you think, well, maybeI'm not crazy.
And you say to someone else andthey say you're crazy.
(12:34):
You go back into that retreatmode and it took me another six
months to meet a man who turnedout to be my husband I married
him who said he understood heartvoice and he said go for it.
So I think the earlier youstart to tell people that you
trust, the sooner you'll findthose cheerleaders.
And the minute you findcheerleaders you feel like
(12:54):
superwoman.
That's the number one thingthat I tell people to do, to be
honest, to share it.
And again, it's a verydifferent, better world in that
respect now than it was 25 yearsago.
So, but still I get people'strepidation about actually
breathing those words to someonewho sees you as a corporate
success.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
That's so true.
It's interesting we're havingthis conversation today because
my husband actually today is hislast day in corporate America
and he resigned to go after thisor North Carolina, so during
Hurricane Helene.
We've both worked in militarycommunications for decades and
so he's very good.
He's a RF and network engineerand he's just very talented.
He's a creative and he designsthings and he creates things.
(13:37):
So, all that to say, he shortlyafter created a solution, a
mobile communication solution,as a response to Hurricane
Helene, and that was exactlywhat it was.
He was like if one person'slife could be saved, then this
matters.
And so he's actually justtoday's his last day.
So we woke up this morning andwe were like, okay, well, it's
resignation day.
To your point, I think I'm okaywith the, we'll work through it
(14:00):
.
The daily bread, we'll have ourdaily bread.
But it is almost that insanityfeel insane like why am I
walking away from a really goodcorporate job where it's a
guaranteed paycheck, where Iknow that I've got all these
things to go after a dream?
I can personally empathize withthe person on the other side of
the microphone that might begoing through that today.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
It's a big hurdle, I get it.
We base so much of our worth onwhat other people think.
And also, we've invested.
How many years?
I invested 12 years.
Some people have invested 20 ormore, and now they're thinking
about making a change.
Not only is it preposterous,sometimes they might think, but
are there skills you don't have?
Are you going back to school?
Are you starting an entry level?
I mean, it's all so daunting, Iget it.
(14:42):
But only thing that I can saythat I know affects people is
you will never believe how goodyour life can be.
It changes what you feel likewhen you wake up.
It changes the people in yourlife.
It changes so much and you feellike you own yourself.
You just have to close youreyes and feel like what that
(15:03):
would feel like compared to,maybe, the jail.
You feel like you're in to getthe courage to say okay, let's
do it.
And if I'm coaching you, I'mthere 24-7.
I am Because you can slide back, it's so easy to and it's worth
going through the darkness, thelight's there.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
That's so good.
Yeah, Because you're right, itis easy to fear.
Right?
Is really what you're sayingFear, fear of so many things
that we don't even.
They just bubble up and thenyou're like, oh, what is this
when I mean?
Fear is a real thing, that's sotrue.
So when you transitioned fromcorporate America to leading
this nonprofit starting andleading this nonprofit, and so
(15:42):
what leadership lessons did youtake with you?
And then, what things did youhave to leave behind or unlearn
that you found?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Wow this is the perfect question.
I just wrote an article for awebsite asking me to write my
philosophy.
My mindset is.
Leading with love is a mindsetand I do a weekly email to
subscribers leading with lovetips from a friend, and I wrote
the story on this exact answerto your question.
(16:08):
When I started to lead pajamaprogram, obviously I was leading
myself, then there werevolunteers and then there were
staff.
Now I grew up with bosses, withrules, and, like most people in
the eighties, I sat in ameeting.
The boss made the rules, theboss dictated what assignments
you had and in the meeting,mostly we were quiet and he or
(16:29):
she was talking In my case, lotsof he's were talking and we
went away and we did the job.
We came back to, hopefully, thejob.
That was what I expected to belike as a boss in that business.
I was striving for thatcorporate office and I thought
that's the boss's way, that's itwhen I was leading pajama
program, I think because it wasa heartfelt move.
(16:52):
Now, anything you are doingeven if you go from being an
accountant to saying I reallywant to be a veterinarian, or I
really want to be an actuary, orI want to be a veterinarian, or
I really want to be an actuaryor I want to be anything.
It doesn't own a chain ofgrocery stores.
The fact that you are in touchwith what your inner soul says
(17:13):
is your purpose and you want todo.
That's heartfelt.
My work in the TV business wasnot heartfelt and if I had made
a move to do anything it wouldhave been because my heart was
telling me to.
So this is not a nonprofitscenario only.
If you're making a move, it'sbecause something in you is
desperate to express itself andthat's your heart and your soul.
So I was leading with my heartand it was a mix of joy because
(17:38):
I would just be me.
I was being natural in theanswers and collaborating.
I was free to say I have no idea, do you have any ideas?
My bosses would never say thatand I don't think I would have
ever said that.
If I had made it to that topcorner office, I wouldn't have
looked at my team and said Ihave no ideas, do you have any
ideas?
But here I am and you know what.
(18:00):
They had ideas and some of themwere better than mine and some
of them most of them propelledus forward and we were
successful and we are successfuland I think it took me a while
to realize that it was and isheartfelt and meeting with love,
and we see how many leaders noware embracing it, and also
(18:30):
because people are tired of theboss.
It's not a leader.
So leading with love iscompassionate, it's
collaborative, it's inspiring.
Now, I had maybe one boss thatwas on the border of inspiring,
but the rest didn't inspire me.
They more intimidated me.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
That's very interesting.
I have a lady I'm working withright now mentoring and she just
expressed the same concern.
So I think it's interesting theconnection.
There's probably more peopleout there struggling with that
(19:07):
than maybe I've thought about.
But she was in corporateAmerica working in this very
directive, authoritativeleadership styles.
That's what she learnedleadership and now she's moved
over into a nonprofit and it'sthe heart space, like you said,
is more open, because now we'redoing heart things in this
nonprofit.
But she's struggling to try tofigure out how do I lead in this
environment and who am I?
Because the model that I saw,which is very directive and this
(19:29):
piece, it doesn't fit here andI'm struggling to try to figure
out what skills do I need tolearn as a leader, what things
do I need to work through.
So I think it's a veryinteresting conversation and,
like you're saying, it's reallyback to the doesn't have to be
nonprofit or corporate or in thegovernment space.
I work with a lot of militarypeople and in the government
spaces the heart piece.
(19:50):
I think that's a really greatuniversal connection.
That's really really good and Ithink if you can connect to
those pieces, like you saidbefore, it doesn't have to be
all or none, because the realityis we have food, clothing,
shelter that we all have to have, and so I think that's the
piece too.
I think we struggle with thewell, I wanted to be a rock star
and I can't do anything andyou're like no, there's so many
(20:12):
other ways that you canvolunteer or love, or grow or
let your heart and your soulexpress itself in the world
without being so restrictive.
So we didn't start with this.
But do you want to telleverybody what the pajama
program is?
Because we just jumped rightinto your story but I didn't
give you a chance to kind oftell.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
What did the nonprofit turn into and what is
it today?
Well, I started bringing bagsand bags of new pajamas and new
books, storybooks, to theshelters because I knew that,
instinctively knew, and in timeI realized I instinctively knew
the storybooks would take theirmind off their fears.
These little ones were soafraid being taken from a place
where, even though it washurting you, the only place you
(20:54):
knew, to the strange place, notknowing where you're going.
I can't imagine the trauma.
But I was hoping thatstorybooks would ease their
minds looking at the pictures.
They listened when I read thestories, even though some of
them cried and they were afraid.
There's something justmagically in a storybook
pictures and the words.
If they can read them, that'ssoothing.
(21:14):
And then, of course, thepajamas, and I gave the ones
that would fit each child.
They were soft and warm andclean.
So I think that comfort piecewas what made the difference in
what I saw in them from themoment I entered to then seeing
them in pajamas with a book,holding onto a book after I've
(21:35):
read one.
So that became addictive for meto keep bringing new pajamas and
new books and people wanted tohelp.
So that's how it started and Isaid you know what?
That's all I can manage A newpair of pajamas and a new book.
I was.
Credit card bills were crazy.
They were taking credit cardaway from me.
I said there's no way I can doanything else.
(21:59):
And then I started chippingwhen people heard what I was
doing and that was an expensethat added to my financial ruin
or so to speak.
So I didn't realize thatstaying in my little niche of
new pajamas and new books,that's it was so special, but it
was because it was easy forother people to help me to do.
And we did that for a long timeand it grew and I transferred
my executive director.
I passed the baton after 20years of being executive
director to Jamie, who was apresident of our board, who said
(22:22):
if you ever do want to go andspeak and inspire people to
listen to their heart and youwant to write your books, please
put my name to the board.
And we did and she was voted in.
So she has grown a little bit,not too far off from what we do,
but including the bedtimeroutine, because none of us get
sleep right Now.
It's a crazy world that we'veall discovered.
(22:43):
We're losing sleep.
It's affecting everything andthe children who've been through
trauma and who are living withfamily or no family experience
it in such a detrimental waybecause it's going to stay with
them from a child through theirlife that stain of fear at
nighttime and trauma, and sothey're afraid to close their
(23:06):
eyes for a lot of reasons.
So incorporating that downtimeand teaching whoever's taking
care of them family orcaregivers the necessary time
with pajamas and a book that achild needs to find a relaxing
place is so important.
So it's about the bedtime, loveand the comfort and security
(23:30):
and peace, and we all seek that.
So we're trying to make surethat the children get as much as
possible.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, I think that's so powerful.
I think about that too.
With our kids growing up,bedtime was very much an
intentional space and we were inthe military so there was a lot
of unknown, unpredictable life,but bedtime just always became
this very special, veryintentional space like getting
your jammies and all the routineand the structure.
Obviously, as a mom, you knowbecause I was alone a lot when
(23:59):
my husband was gone or when Iwas in the military deploying
things.
So I think the thing that weoften miss, like you said, is
the comfort and the safety andthe security and the stability
that children really need andhow important and powerful that
is.
And when it's gone or when it'smissing, it's just one more
element that you don't reallyconsider.
We just kind of get up and wedo our thing and we don't
(24:22):
realize all the things thatthey're missing and how
detrimental and lasting I thinkthat is.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
And one more thing that you know as a mom and I
learned I am not a mom I don'tfeel like I am on the same level
as you and as moms that's avery different, more significant
role.
So I think that's beautiful,but that bonding at bedtime is
missing for the children most ofthe time.
Night, when I would climb intobed and my mom would come to
(24:50):
each of the four of on a smallsurface in the clothes that
didn't fit and they're cryingWhere's that?
Mommy's here, and mommy will behere tomorrow morning.
(25:20):
And if we didn't feel well, thefour of us still kid as adults.
We would whisper mom and fromdownstairs she would run
upstairs.
And that bonding I've heard fromso many of our supporters over
the years.
They would tell me storiesabout what their child revealed,
their fear.
Or tomorrow I have a test and Ididn't study, mom, I'm really
afraid.
Or worse.
Or just I love you.
(25:42):
I feel really happy today, mom,I'm so glad I got an A.
Or I'm so glad I got a puppy.
Or so glad I helped you makedinner.
I mean those moments theysupport us or in the worst cases
, for some of these kids, theylast that loneliness.
So I learned how preciousbedtime is, and so I was just so
(26:03):
grateful to have an opportunityto provide some comfort, even
if I was invisible.
We were all invisible to thechild, and a box arrived.
It still said to them somebodycares.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, that you matter .
That's so powerful, and I thinkit is.
It's just such a powerful spacebecause we look at the
suffering of the world and wethink, well, what can I do with
the $3 or three days that I haveand you were able to with a
team?
I say that because I totallyunderstand being a founder and
starting something at twoo'clock in the morning and your
brain is squirreling and you'relike I have to stop the pain and
(26:38):
I don't know how.
And then I say very much for myfaith.
One person gets brought in andanother person gets brought in.
And so now I say to volunteerswhen they come I have no idea
why you're here, and I just saythat to them in the openness of
like I don't know why God sentyou, I don't know what your
heart is saying.
I don't know your heart story.
I don't know what your soul islooking for.
I know none of those things.
My job is to steward you andyour heart for the time in which
(27:01):
you're entrusted to me.
But that's a partnership.
I need you to meet me halfway.
That's you saying to God use me.
Yeah, that's right, open hands.
I have no idea.
But and why are you bringingthese people to me because I
don't know what to do with them,and there's always someone who
has a new tool or a new ideathat gets us to the next level.
So I got feedback just yesterdayfrom a guy who's on our board,
who's a great, a wonderfulmentor to me now and supporting
(27:24):
us, the thing he said which wasso, so sweet to me.
He says I said thank you foreverything that you do, mike,
thanks for everything.
And he said thanks for givingme an opportunity.
And so I think, just from onefounder to another, thanks for
giving the opportunity to people, thanks for being brave enough
to put yourself out there withthe $3 and the three days that
(27:45):
you had to just be like I'mgoing to help this one kid, and
if I can just help this one,then two kids, then four, then
however many, so it's been 25years.
You said 25 years kids, thenfour, then however many, so it's
been 25 years.
You said 25 years.
So how many numbers do you guyshave?
Statistics turned to how manyfamilies you've helped, or
whatever?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
More than 8 million pajamas and books have been
distributed around the US in40-some chapters, and it's
growing and it's a beautifulthing.
I want to say back to yourvolunteer experience.
You hit it on the head.
I never realized how much wewere helping donors and
volunteers, and I see why hesaid thank you for the
opportunity.
(28:20):
People want to help.
They don't know how until theyfind what touches their heart.
Then they're like oh, I got togo there, that's calling me.
But I can tell you and youprobably know this or you will
we would have children and wewould have volunteers come to
read to the children and wewould count on those volunteers.
Right, we didn't.
We didn't want 12 children andtwo volunteers.
It was heartbreaking, right?
So we'd all make it work.
(28:41):
I can't tell you how many timesa volunteer would pull me aside
and say I almost didn't cometoday.
You wouldn't believe what'sgoing on in my life, but I
forgot everything in this hourand a half.
I forgot everything.
Thank you.
(29:01):
The first time I heard that Ididn't even get it when I got it
.
That's the opportunity that'sas meaningful as the work you
set out to do is how you areaffecting people who want to
help.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
That's so good.
It's interesting you say thatbecause we just talked about
that last week, I think on weall have all of our own stuff
and I think that's a big part ofnot stepping out in faith, not
trying.
I wrote a book last year notabout my book, but about promise
over purpose, but it basicallyis like you know, god tells us
to love him with our heart, soul, mind and strength, which will
(29:26):
take a lifetime.
That's a lifetime journeyperiod and to love your neighbor
as yourself, and you can dothat in a billion different ways
.
And so we stay over here andbeing overwhelmed by our life is
completely valid, and somepeople are carrying really hard,
heavy things, like you said.
But there is such anopportunity for you to just show
love to one other person, andit doesn't have to be big, it
(29:47):
doesn't have to be grand, likeyou're saying.
It can have such an impact injust a very small, tiny piece of
just showing up.
So I think that's reallypowerful.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
I'm anxious to say, because you are hitting all the
parts of my heart that are soexcited to be awakened after
climbing the corporate ladderand I'm just feel like they're
so free.
But you're touching on so manythings and what we're talking
about it has to do with business, not just nonprofit.
We're not talking about warm,fuzzy stuff that we volunteer or
we start nonprofits to do.
(30:17):
We're talking aboutrelationships in an office of
million-dollar companies wherepeople are making salaries and
the more they make, more powerto them.
As long as this is theenvironment that we're speaking
of, that they embrace, that theynurture there, that our
supporters, our donors, aretheir teams.
Their purpose can be to make abox, it can be to sell a potato
(30:40):
chip.
People love these things, theyuse these things, they're
filling a need.
It doesn't have to be anonprofit, it just has to be
heart-led.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
That's how I feel that's so important.
I think that that's the wholereason why I started the podcast
was because I feel like we areentrusted with the care and
safekeeping of other people, andthat is such an important piece
, right, I think, other thanparenting, it's a privilege,
right?
Yeah, exactly, and so you'reright.
People bring all of theirselves to the workplace every
day.
They bring their good and theirbad, and they're happy and
(31:10):
they're sad, and the humanstanding in front of you matters
, like you're saying.
It doesn't have to be anonprofit or you're saving lives
every day, but that personthat's in front of you still
matters, and they want the heartconnection.
Like, I think that's the otherpart too.
I learned years ago in themilitary when I was working.
I have this optimisticperception that everyone wants
to do good in the world, and itwas just like they genuinely do
(31:32):
want to be successful.
They want to make a difference.
They're just struggling tofigure out how they need to turn
left or you need to turn right.
I just have a lot more empathyfor teams that are struggling
with that stuff, like you'resaying.
So people really do.
Potato chip making does matterin the world.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
It does.
It's not about control, it'sabout connection, and I read
that somewhere.
I'm trying to remember if itwas someone's quote or I just
read it in some kind of adescription.
But that was exactly right.
It's not about control, it'sabout connection, and that's
what you inspire and that's howpeople will want to support and
follow you and be on your team.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's right, yeah, but there's a balance, I think,
as a leader, right.
So I would like your thoughtson this in terms of how do you
scale this?
Like the mission, the heartwork, but then you still have to
implement this structure andstrategy and the business
mindset.
So, as you left corporate andwent and started the nonprofit
and then grew, this team hasgrown.
How does a leader do both?
What do they?
(32:28):
How do they do?
Speaker 2 (32:28):
both.
The person I look to and I wishI could say I knew him is
Richard Branson.
I quote him a lot.
I do a lot about joy and lovein the workplace and he and his
daughter freely talk about thefun that they have with their
teams and purposely make thingsfun and plan fun things.
And I think none of that takesaway from everybody knowing you
(32:52):
are the leader.
But everybody will take awaythat you are human and that you
wanted to connect with them andhave fun and laugh.
And it's okay to spend anafternoon, no last minute, with
a free lunch and monopoly orcharades or something.
How wonderful is that?
So there are goals and sometimesin that atmosphere of a
(33:16):
surprise joyful event or just alet's all have coffee or let me
take an hour with groups ofpeople for this month of July
and get to know everyone, nobodyforgets you're the leader.
You can take all theopportunity you want to talk
about goals, but you can askalso.
I am open to ideas.
(33:38):
You can say this is how I'veset it out, but Lord knows, I'm
not the only one with an ideaand I would welcome because if
you are here it means we believeyou can contribute something
and feel free anytime my door isopen.
None of that says walk all overme, I'm not really taking
leadership seriously.
It's saying I have enoughself-confidence in my people and
(34:00):
new and rising stars that youhave ideas that are worth
millions and if you bring themto us and you share your
opinions, you're going to shinea light on things that some of
us are just so focused on oneway we don't see.
It's about not being afraid tobe vulnerable.
It's about not being afraid tolose control.
(34:22):
It's about not being afraidthat people won't see you as the
big boss and bow down.
That's going away, and I thinkthat that's healthy.
I agree with you too, and Ithink the other thing that that
creates is it creates ownership.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
I think with you too, and I think the other thing
that that creates is it createsownership.
I think, like you said, fromthe person.
Now they're invested, and youwant employees to be invested in
your business.
You want employees that arecommitted to the mission and the
cause, even if it is buildingtank engines or whatever they
are, but you want peoplecommitted to your mission of the
organization, and when you givethem a voice, then, yeah,
(34:56):
they're the best people who knowhow to do their job better,
anyway, we would hope becausethey're the ones on the front
lines every day.
So, yeah, I think that's sogood.
I can see that too.
This inclusive leadership.
It's getting a little bit more.
I won't say common, but it'sdefinitely the language right is
being presented in the world.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
But it's also on us.
It's on people who are beinghired, people who are looking
for jobs, and I coach a lot ofpeople who are new to the
working world and I always sayyou are worth every penny that
you want to make.
You are worth if you're goingfor a job.
You are worth it.
And you can say can you tell mewhat you do for the community?
You can ask questions, you canhold the company accountable.
(35:35):
You can say can you tell mewhat you do for the community?
You can ask questions, you canhold the company accountable.
You can say this is where Ifeel I can make a contribution
and I really want to join acompany where I can grow and I
can be creative in this way.
Speak what you want.
It's your decision.
I remember going for a job,thinking oh, I hope I get the
job.
I hope I get the job.
I hope I get the job.
(35:59):
I hope I get the job.
I hope I get the job.
Nevermind, I hope it's a goodjob for me.
I hope I like it.
It is being reversed.
I just think we just also needto be mindful of how we present
ourselves.
So it isn't coming off asselfish, but it's coming off.
As I'm willing to be a teamplayer, I just want to make sure
you understand where I am.
Otherwise neither of us isgoing to be happy in three
months.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I say that a lot to you.
With people I'm like we're notvictims in the 21st century
workforce really.
I mean we do have layoffs and Ihave some friends who are
working through the, I say, thedoge debacle right now, that
work for the federal governmentin different fashions.
So I don't say that in a like alightly, just skip over it, but
because things do happen to usthat are outside of our control
always.
(36:36):
But we do have much more of avoice, like you said, and we do
have that ability.
It's a contractual agreement.
I kind of come to it like I'mgoing to give this much for a
certain amount of money,obviously, but I just want to
make sure it's a reciprocalrelationship and we don't often
think of that as employment thatyou do have a voice that you
can say I don't align with thevalues.
(36:56):
I think it goes a lot back tovalues too.
We don't often know what ourvalues are.
Like you're saying, you kind ofget to these places in your
life where maybe there's a heartmoment that sparks you or a
tragedy or something hard, oryou're sitting on the bathroom
floor like I don't want to dothis anymore, but I feel like
there's a big disconnect betweenwhat we as our heart and soul,
what we value, and being able tofind that, to put words around
(37:20):
it and then you can measure doesthis opportunity align with my
values?
Well, I don't even know what myvalues are because I've never
even asked.
So I think it's so important toyour point because then we'd
maybe hopefully have a lot lessgrumbly people.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
It's also work, life and health balance.
We can see health.
We can see the issues that arecoming up because we've been
overworked or we're not speakingour piece or we feel, I believe
, that how you feel dictates somuch of your physical ailments
and depression, and especiallythe kids these days are having
(37:55):
troubles.
It's just when you join a group, any kind of a group you have
to make sure that you'll findears that understand health,
life, work balance and that it'ssupported, that you aren't
expected to work as a maniac,unless you know that it's
presented to you and you are allin.
(38:16):
But I think it's fair forsomebody who's looking for a job
to say this is my situation.
I will give 100%.
I want to know have youstructured anything about
work-life health balance?
You know, is there somethingyou can tell me about that
experience you've had, or is itrelevant here?
Is it a conversation in thisorganization?
Speaker 1 (38:37):
No, I think that's super helpful and I appreciate
that you give language, becausesometimes we don't know.
You're like I don't know howwould I even say that?
So, because, again, it's not.
These are the five questions Iwant to ask on my next job
interview.
But you're right, it's so mucha part of who we are and it
affects us, whether we know itor not, in a very big, deep way,
and I think that's a big pieceof it too.
And then just you, you'rewilling to accept that.
(38:59):
So I think that's the piece Igo back to.
Sometimes we accept positions oraccept jobs, or we're in
situations and we don't know,and expectation management.
Again we get in and we're likethis isn't what I thought it was
going to be, but we do alwayshave a voice.
So I think that's superimportant.
Is there any advice that youhave around how to rally a team
around a vision that flows fromyour personal calling?
(39:20):
You had to kind of do that fromthe ground up and then now
you're doing a lot of coachingand teaching and you're writing.
So what advice do you have forpeople?
This is probably a selfishquestion for myself, but how do
we do that to really get a teamaround this vision that you have
or that someone has.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Well, I think it's important for a leader to share
his or her story and it's a lotof times emotional and share it
that way.
Share it that way.
Share it that way.
If you have to stop and collectyourself because something is
sensitive to you or somethinghappened, take the moment, let
people see how this has touchedyou, because they will feel it.
(39:57):
And also it's important to knowwhy the other person is drawn
to you in the first place or tothe job in the first place.
So ask it's good to ask in aninterview, it's good to ask if
the leader has five minutes orwhen a leader has a lunch break
with the new hires what excitesyou about being here or what's
your situation and how can wehelp fill whatever void there is
(40:21):
.
If there's a feeling of somekind of common ground whether
it's the purpose of theorganization or if it's changing
lives in a certain way, or ifit's people first and products
will follow they have to decidewhat is the common thread
between the leader's vision andeach employee.
(40:43):
There's got to be somethingmore than I just need a job.
I mean.
I guess we'll always have thatamount of people, but it should
be the least amount of peoplewith that reason for being there
than most, and I think thatthat is a part of the interview
process.
Why are you here?
And it could be I'm notinterested in your product, but
I love that you support this.
Tell me why you support thisand then the leader can say you
(41:07):
know, I had a child who this orone of our employees, this or
always loved pets, always lovedsomething and throw it right
back.
Why does that touch you?
And you'll hear a personalstory.
You know I do retreats andthings and that's such an
important question and I usuallyask share a story about you and
your best friend.
And then I'll say and that caninclude your pet, and things
(41:30):
come out.
You know I'm not asking youabout necessarily your wife or
certain specifics, but tell meabout a story of you and your
best friend or you and your pet.
And that's when people get softand heartfelt and that's the
time to do that, that's the timeto share that.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, do you want to talk alittle bit about your new heart
project that you're working onand how we can help support you
or the different things thatyou're doing?
I know we didn't get a chanceto dive into that, but I know
that's a big part of what isimportant to you right now.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Yeah, it's sharing that.
Leading with love is a mindset.
You wake up every morning andone of the tips is you wake up
and you say how can I connectpeople today?
And you walk in with thatintention and you trust your
heart.
And maybe it's the day when yousay we're going to play
charades.
It sounds crazy, but free lunchand we're going to play
(42:20):
charades today.
Or you find someone who canplay the guitar.
You see what somebody is a golfpro and you say listen, you
know there are people here loveto hear you play or love some
golf tips.
Why don't we schedule a Fridayevery month and we'll find the
experts here and we can sayso-and-so.
Anybody want to learn aboutgolf.
We're going to have one of ourown teaches tricks about golf or
(42:44):
play some music or something.
But if you open to that kind ofa relationship with your team,
the ideas are just going to come.
They're just going to come and,like I said, you can use that
opportunity when people arelaughing and playing games or
listening to music to say we'rea little behind on our goal.
Everybody, I could use somehelp.
(43:05):
I've exhausted all my resources.
None of us on the A team.
This is where we can figure itout.
I know you guys are on the frontlines Got any ideas and it's a
very different atmosphere.
It's a very open, inclusiveatmosphere to get work done,
trying to find someone that youdon't know well and say, why
(43:25):
don't we have a cup of coffee?
And I bet you most people wouldbe thrilled and also
intimidated that the top personis asking.
But that will take downbarriers too and open doors.
And I have a friend, kelly, andshe runs a company and whenever
there's a new hire she writes apersonal welcome card.
How great is that?
I mean I would love to havegotten a welcome card with my
(43:46):
name on it, signed by my topboss.
Isn't that a great idea?
I told her I'm going to usethat.
I love that idea.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That's so good, the little things that really do
make a difference.
Yeah, we used to get birthdaycards from the general and that
was like handwritten notes fromthe general and the SES.
You know they would send youwhen I worked with the army off
for a while and that was supercool because you have like a
little letter on your desk fromthe general and it was a
handwritten note.
He was like hey, danita, Iappreciate what you did on this
project or whatever, whatever,and you're just like man.
(44:13):
Okay, it does matter.
It's a big organization with3000 people in this building,
but my little piece ofcontribution actually does
matter every day.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
So was seen.
Yeah, it was acknowledged.
(44:48):
Yes, yeah, I'm seen.
That's right, I know that wasbeautiful Kudos.
To the general yeah, very true,I learned a lot of our lessons
come from those of you who speakand write about love in
business.
You don't get any more down tobusiness than when you're
fighting for your life.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
That's very true.
I think I've seen that.
I say that leadership, the wayI see leadership, is not what we
would think of the world.
It's the silent warriors whoare bonded.
Yeah, they're the quiet guys inthe world.
You know, it's the silentwarriors who are Bonded.
Yeah, they're the quiet guys inthe back.
We'll give literally their lifefor you.
It's just a powerful thing tosee.
Yeah, well, I know you said youhave like a gift.
You're working on a couple ofnew projects.
(45:17):
Do you wanna share a little bitabout that and then how people
can connect with you andcontinue this conversation?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Sure, anybody who's thinking about changing, sliding
, jumping, whatever, looking forfulfillment in work, certainly
contact me for a free hourbrainstorming.
I can listen, I can offerwhatever I can do.
You can find that on my website.
Just sign up for my lead withlove, tips from a friend, all
(45:43):
those emails, and I'm happy tohelp any way I can.
Teaching and speaking onleading with love, that's so
good.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
It's so needed in the world today.
I can't imagine we need anyless love from the lens of
leadership for sure in the worldthat we live in today.
So it has been a pleasure and ablessing to spend time with you
.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Thank you so much oh, I feel the strain and thank you
for your service.
I wanted to say that.
Make sure I said that to you,thank you, thank you very much
and to your husband,congratulations to him too.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Thanks, I'll let you know if it's a jump or a slide,
we'll keep updated, but I'll putall the links in the show notes
, and it has been a pleasure.
Please let me know if we canever help with you.
So thank you.
Hey.
Friends, thanks for joining metoday on my call.
(46:30):
I had an amazing time listeningand learning from Genevieve, and
so here's the question I wantto ask you as we wrap up today
when was the last time that youchecked in with your heart about
your leadership journey?
I know we talk about the heartthing a lot on this podcast
because it's super important,friend, and so today I hope that
you learned a lot of lessonsand got to be inspired by
(46:52):
Genevieve's story, thechallenges, the fear that she
overcame in order to bring thispowerful message to the world,
and I hope that encourages youand strengthens you and gives
you hope and challenges you alittle bit to move outside your
comfort zone Because, as weoften say, you only have one
life to live, right?
So I just want to remind youkeep showing up every day, even
(47:15):
when it hurts, because youmatter.
Okay, friends, have an amazingday.
I'll see you later.
Bye.
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