Clean Beauty Series
Episode Description:
“I'm excited to see what gets tested. There is an endless supply on this planet of products or sources that have not been tested yet. And I think there are entrepreneurial companies starting to find the next efficacious ingredient.” —Tamar Kamen
The intersection of food and beauty is redefining the future of skincare, as innovative brands harness the power of natural, edible ingredients to nourish skin from the inside out. From upcycled coffee grounds to hydroponic-grown botanicals, the beauty industry is undergoing a delicious transformation.
Tamar Kamen is an independent product developer in the beauty industry with over 20 years of experience, bringing her wealth of knowledge and passion for clean, sustainable formulations to the forefront of the conversation.
Tune in as Justine and Tamar talk about the rise of transparency and consumer education, the challenges and costs of sustainable packaging, the evolution of clean beauty, the innovations shaping the future of the industry, and more
Meet Tamar:
Tamar Lara Kamen is an award-winning beauty industry expert with a proven track record in product development and marketing. As a HERO PRODUCT MAKER and Beauty Industry Consultant, Tamar has collaborated with renowned brands such as Herbivore, Dune Suncare, Alpyn, Lion Pose, Glowbar, BoldHue, and Knesko. With a Bachelor of Arts in American Studies from Columbia University, Barnard College, she brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to her role.
Tamar's expertise spans product development, start-ups, new brand development, clinical skincare, consumer studies, pharmaceuticals, and more. She has held key positions, including Vice President of Product Development at Topicals, where she oversaw product development, education, marketing, and regulatory compliance. Tamar is also a member of WE ARE THE BOARD, contributing her insights and leadership to the beauty industry.
In addition to her professional achievements, Tamar is dedicated to animal welfare, volunteering as a foster mom, adoption counselor, and dog handler for Best Friends Animal Society and Mayor's Alliance for NYC's Animals. Her passion for innovation, strategy, and brand development makes her a sought-after consultant and fractional executive in the beauty industry.
Connect with NextGen Purpose:
Episode Highlights:
02:17 Transparency and Consumer Education
06:47 Challenges and Cost of Sustainable Packaging
10:03 Consumer Thresholds and Product Preferences
16:03 The Role of Food in Clinical Beauty
19:10 Innovations in Upcycled Ingredients
24:02 The Future of Clean Beauty
28:25 Tips for Clean Beauty Founders
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justine Reichman (00:15):
Welcome to Essential Ingredients. Today, we
have an Tamar Kamen. She's anindependent product developer in
the beauty industry with over 20years of experience. I'm super
excited to have her on becauseshe's a great wealth of
knowledge, but also becauseshe's a good friend.
Tamar Kamen (00:30):
I'm so happy to be here.
Justine Reichman (00:32):
Thanks to know. We're doing a special
series, and this series isfocused on the impact of food on
the future of beauty. So I'dlove to just get your take on
that, and then we'll go back tohow you got there.
Tamar Kamen (00:47):
Sure. Food and beauty, I think that at least
for product development, you canget inspiration anywhere. And
food and chefs have becomereally a celebrity venture. I
guess now, there's a lot moreprestige associated with food,
and a lot more experimentationand farm to table. All of that
(01:10):
has really evolved over thelast, I don't know, 20 years. So
that interest, I think, has madeits way into beauty as well,
because people hope that theirproducts are going to be
somewhat natural or derived fromsomething that they can often
pronounce. So I think that associety has become more
(01:31):
interested in food, in asupermarket or in a restaurant,
that has impacted the beautyindustry with new ingredients,
new innovation, new sources,hydroponic. That did not exist
for a lot of us a while ago. Butnow, you can source, not only
lettuce, but you can potentiallysource ingredients that you use
(01:52):
in skincare without soil.
Justine Reichman (01:56):
Wow. So if we're looking back before, we
made this pivot beauty industry.As I say, we eat, the beauty
industry made this pivot. Whenyou would look at a bottle,
oftentimes, as you said, there'dbe a million things, A, that you
couldn't pronounce. And B, thatyou didn't know what they were.
But somehow, we trusted theproducts to put them on our face
(02:17):
and our body. I've done that.Have you done that?
Tamar Kamen (02:21):
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Justine Reichman (02:22):
But now, we're all about transparency, and we
want to know what's in it. Isthat the same thing you're
finding in the beauty industry?
Tamar Kamen (02:29):
Much so. People are reading ingredient lists, and
they didn't know how to before.And with the resources that we
have, the internet influencers,podcasts, we have information at
our fingertips, and everyone canbecome an expert in what they're
interested in. So there are alot of people, starting at the
(02:56):
teen years, who are now becomingexperts in beauty, and they're
becoming critical. They'rediscerning. They're educating
themselves and looking fortransparency that is 100%
Justine Reichman (03:11):
And when they're looking for this
happening.
transparency, does that alsoinclude the planet?
Tamar Kamen (03:18):
Yes. Yeah, yeah. So for example, Sephora, starting
maybe 10 years ago, had a cleanproduct initiative where there
were no lists for the firsttime. They're not including
this, this, this. If you thinkabout one of the first brands
that did that, it was DrunkElephant. And Drunk Elephant in
(03:38):
skincare created one of thefirst free of lists, no note
list so they weren't includingparabens, they weren't including
phthalates, a bunch ofingredients. And they were
saying this is important to thecustomer for whatever safety
reasons, mostly. So Sephora tookthat on for all of their clean
(03:59):
products, or clean brands about10 years ago. That has evolved
to become a more and morerestrictive list. And now,
Sephora has taken that toanother step. And now, it's
called Clean and Planet Aware.So what that means is that the
(04:24):
responsibility to the customeris not just what's in the jar,
but it's also the jar itself.The folding carton that it comes
in. Is it recyclable? Where isit sourced? Is it source? You
can get plastic that's sourcedfrom sugarcane. You can get
virgin plastic that's justpetroleum based. You can have a
plastic that is PCR, PostConsumer Recycled plastic. But
(04:46):
then that may not be recyclable.So there are a lot of decisions
that a brand can make, andcustomers are asking for that
transparency. Do they want tobuy something in glass? It might
be breakable, it might be tooheavy, but it might be better
for the planet. Or do they wantto buy something that maybe is
not recyclable, but it will fitin their purse and they can
(05:07):
travel with it very easily. Soit's helping customers have
options. And a lot of thoseoptions are the packaging as
well, and that's more of theplanet aware. Offsetting carbon
footprint, even shippingingredients. There are some
companies that say, we try notto ship our ingredients from
across the world. We sourceeverything within 100 miles of
(05:29):
where we manufacture. So thereare degrees of that, but it is
very talked about and consideredby both consumers, retailers and
brands.
Justine Reichman (05:42):
As you're sitting here talking about glass
and all these different kinds ofthings, I'm imagining that costs
can go from one end of thespectrum to the next. So what
role does that play for both thebusinesses that are creating the
product, as well as theconsumer?
Tamar Kamen (05:57):
That is a consideration for everyone. So
obviously, the brands don't makeas much margin if the packaging
is very expensive. There arerefillable packages, for example
now, and those can be moreexpensive for a brand to produce
because they have to produce thepackage, the outer package, and
that usually comes with like arefillable pod. And then they
(06:18):
have to also produce all of thepods separately, like the Keurig
or whatever pods. So theminimums are higher. There are a
lot of considerations, andthat's not something that's
affordable to every brand. Andcustomers, again, can decide
what makes sense for them. It isfor products that are sold at
Credo, Goop, Whole Foods andthen in the Sephora Clean, and
(06:42):
then the Clean and Planet Aware.That is more important, because
it's a commitment that they'reagreeing to abide by to that
retailer and to the customer. Sothat's just something that now
is part of the ethos and partof, when you create a product,
you're going to allocate moremoney to packaging, or to the
(07:02):
formula as well. There are someingredients that if you buy from
a source that's not as wellknown, it might be less
expensive. But if you buy from avalidated, ethical source, it
may be more expensive. And Idon't know if customers are as
aware of the added expense, butbrands and retailers certainly
are.
Justine Reichman (07:22):
I know that if I go to the store, I'm looking
for a product. I want somethingthat I think is better for me
and better for the planet, andthat includes the ingredients
and the packaging. But I have athreshold, right? So everyone
has their own threshold, and Iguess I'm curious. The idea is
that these businesses arespending more, and people are
(07:43):
demanding more, and they don'talways understand the
implication of what they'reasking for. So how do businesses
provide the education so peoplecan make more informed choices?
And what role does educationplay in this?
Tamar Kamen (07:59):
Have you heard of the term greenwashing? We suffer
from a lot of that in beautybecause there are some things
that are very difficult toaccomplish. Recycling, for
example, in most markets, inmost city, products that are
under the size of a businesscard or a credit card generally
(08:21):
are not recycled because thatmarket, the facilities that they
have, the machinery lets thosesize products fall through in
the culling process. They justdon't recycle something that's
big or small. Let's say, if youthink about the cosmetic
products that you buy, a lot ofthem are smaller than that. So
if we say that a lipstick isrecyclable, there you go. That
(08:46):
could be recyclable. But in mostareas, the recycling facilities
will not recycle that. So it'sfantastic when I go to my
recycling bin in my building,it's filled with tons of small
containers. Not just cosmetics.It could be anything for food. I
have a candle right now that isa tea light, small candle. It's
(09:09):
glass. I will be putting it inthe recycling. But I'm pretty
certain that in New York, theywon't recycle that. So part of
it is green washing where thereare lots of brands, and they
might be the makeup brands whereeverything is recyclable. But in
all actuality, those productswill not be recycled because of
(09:31):
the facilities locally. Peopledon't talk about that because
the brands do want to do what isthe most responsible, and they
know that customers are going tobe asking those questions. So
there is not total transparency.Even if you wanted to recycle
something that was a certainsize, a place like Sephora or
(09:52):
Credo, sometimes they do havebins where they will take care
of recycling. But still, thereare not that. Any resources
available to recycle a lot ofbeauty products. When you ask
about the threshold that's fromfor me as a consumer, of course,
I want something that's the bestfor the planet, the best for me.
(10:15):
But I also want the performance,and I want it to look nice.
There's some products that comein. The refills are in pouches,
and you put that in your shampooor in whatever. That doesn't
work for everybody because oflots of reasons. They don't like
having a huge supply of refillsin their closet. It's extra
work. I know it's not a ton ofwork, but it's extra work. It's
(10:37):
keeping two products. You havethe product that's the retail
size, and then you have therefills. It's a different
threshold for everybody, but itis a threshold that exists.
People say that they wantcertain things. But in reality,
would I buy something that Ithought looked nicer and it's in
plastic and it's lighter? Andfor my purposes, it's easier to
(10:58):
travel with, or whatever. Iwould pick something that makes
more sense for me and mylifestyle, rather than the
potential impact theoreticallyon the planet. But I also know,
because I am, I think, fairlywell educated that even if I did
pick something that isrecyclable, I know the
(11:18):
likelihood of it being recycled.So you do see like, think about
soaps that you can buy atFarmers Market, that's not for
everybody. Or a lush soap thatis very raw looking, they cut
it, that's not for everyone.Castile soap like the Dr.
Bronner's that a lot of peopledo like, that is probably as
(11:39):
crunchy and clean. As somepeople, that is their threshold.
They're not going to get anymore natural, crunchy, clean,
recyclable. So something likethat. People have lemons.
Justine Reichman (11:50):
Yeah. I think it's really interesting. Because
I go back to when I used to buycertain things, and I wouldn't
even look at what it was made ofor what was in it. And now all
of the sudden, as a result ofbeing in the niche of food, I'm
really curious about not onlywhat the food is, but how
they're putting it togetherbecause you could have really
(12:12):
good products and really badencasing forth. You can have a
lot of waste, and you can have alot of putting stuff in
landfills, and you could betraveling, and all the fossil
fuel. There's just so manythings that go into it. So I'm
curious, because you've workedon a variety of products in the
last 20 years, and I'm sure theyweren't all very clean 20 years
(12:34):
ago. Were they? How long ago didwe start to see this trend where
really was something that peoplelooked for?
Tamar Kamen (12:44):
I would say that clean or natural became very
mainstream with The Body Shop.And The Body Shop was probably
about 20 to 30 years ago. Ithink that's they still exist.
You know what I'm talking about?
Justine Reichman (13:01):
I know what The Body Shop is, but I haven't
seen a store in 100 years.
Tamar Kamen (13:04):
I think it does exist, but maybe it's sold at
Bath and Body Works. I'm notsure. And I think it exists in
international markets. I'm notsure what really happened to it
here. Oh, it does exist becausethey got acquired again
recently. I don't know what theplan is for the future. But I'd
say that The Body Shop startedmaking clean, less crunchy and
(13:27):
hippie. I actually don't knowhow clean the formulas were, but
they were very plant forward. Soif you would be using an acne
product previously, we just sayacne product. When The Body Shop
came around, it would say teatree oil and maybe other
ingredients too, but it madepeople more familiar with the
natural ingredients that provideskin care benefits. So that's
(13:50):
when I think, let's say, greenerformulas started appearing, and
became more common for a lot ofpeople. And then the next round
of that, in my opinion, wasprobably Drunk Elephant. And
Drunk Elephant was the no-nolist. And now, every brand has a
no-no list. Previously, I don'treally remember seeing no-no
(14:13):
lists. There were some brands Iwould say, we're not going to
use a retinal or an alphahydroxy acid, but it was not for
responsibility purposes. In somecases, they didn't use
ingredients, but it was veryseldom that I saw no-no lists.
So I'd say that Drunk Elephantwas the next round of Body Shop
impact. And then after thatbecame the clean green standard,
(14:39):
Drunk Elephant brands startedtaking it beyond that, and Credo
arrived, and Goop. Credo gavepeople who have specific
requirements and standards forclean, natural, all that. It
gave them a market to onedestination where they could get
all their beauty items insteadof, oh, I really like this from
(15:02):
this Farmers Market. Or I canbuy my sunscreen here. I can buy
my face lotion someplace else.It's one destination where
people with those values can buyeverything. So those products
became more accessible in thelast 10 years or so, and it's
become more and more strict insome ways. Because now, lab
(15:24):
manufacturers are also morefamiliar with, if I'm not using
petrolatum, what's a goodsubstitute? So over the last 10
years or so, there have alsobecome more ethical, more green
options for ingredients. So thewhole market has transformed.
The whole industry hastransformed in the last 20
years.
Justine Reichman (15:43):
So when I think of some of these beauty
brands that we're talking about,I think of going to Credo and
Goop or whatever to pick upwhatever you need. But then
(16:05):
there's also beauty productsthat I get from my doctor's
office, my dermatologist office.Many doctors offices, they use
retinol, they use all thesethings in their products, and we
had actually wanted them when wewent there. We wanted them. I'm
wondering what role food, if youwill, will be part of the
(16:26):
evolution of the products thatthe doctors are selling?
Tamar Kamen (16:31):
That's tougher, because most of the products
that doctors are selling arevery engineered. The ingredients
are very engineered. So it's themost effective, newest
technology, a new molecule thatwas made at a university or by a
pharmaceutical company thatusually doesn't come from a
(16:54):
garden. You know that that's notsomething that you can't see far
back enough to when it was anactual source from the earth. So
I don't think that that's goingto impact clinical beauty as
much in the future. Because alot of times, the patients or
the customers who are going intodoctors offices or estheticians
(17:17):
getting facials and buyingproducts there, they're
comfortable buying veryclinical, man made, science made
products. And if you'recomfortable with
pharmaceuticals, even youraspirin is very synthetic, and
there's something called safesynthetics. So there are a lot
(17:37):
of brands that are saying, okay,we're not natural necessarily.
But in some cases, you'll buy aproduct that's natural or an
ingredient that's natural. Thereare a lot of essential oils that
can be very, very irritating.There are ingredients that are
very difficult to sourceethically. So there are safe
synthetics, and those might bebetter for somebody with eczema,
(17:57):
or with sensitive skin, or acneprone skin. It might not come
out of the earth, but puttingsomething that comes out of the
earth on your face is notnecessarily going to be less
irritating or more effective.Efficacy is a lot of what people
aren't willing to compromise on.
Justine Reichman (18:16):
I would say that food is not always safe
either. You can go mushroomforaging, and there's mushrooms
you should not be eating. Ithink the same thing could be
said for anything in a garden.There are things there that just
aren't a good fit. And justbecause it says it's natural, or
it's from your garden, or it'san herb, it doesn't mean that it
(18:36):
can't be poisonous or deadly.
Tamar Kamen (18:40):
Very much. So I think in food, the safe
synthetic is probably much lessapplicable than it is in in
skincare. I can't think of a tonof food that is completely
engineered without a supernatural source. Can you think of
anything that's like anengineered food that everyone
(19:02):
considers safe?
Justine Reichman (19:06):
No, I could think of some engineered food
that I don't really think isvery good for us. I don't want
to call out things necessarily,but I do think that there's
oftentimes a lot of filler andstuff, and things when they are
plant based, etcetera thatsometimes it's just better to
have the real thing. I thinkingredients really are
(19:31):
important. And I think that I goto the dermatologist and use
products from there, because Ithink there's a time and place
for everything. There areproducts, there are new
innovations coming out thatreally do work in some ways,
that maybe you don't have to goto the dermatologist for some
things, but there's still valuein, for me at least, in some of
(19:52):
the products that I get. I knowyou've worked on both sides of
the coin, right?
Tamar Kamen (19:56):
Yeah. And I would say that the difference also
between food and beauty is thatproducts that you apply to your
face or to anywhere in your bodydon't enter the bloodstream, and
they don't go through yourdigestive tract. So people who
have gluten intolerance, glutenintolerance is different from
celiac. Even celiac, with celiacthe Celiac Association of
(20:18):
America, I think it's the thatone says that you should not
have an issue applying productsthat have wheat or gluten onto
your face, because they don't gothrough your digestive tract. If
you have a severe glutenallergy, they would most likely
recommend that you not do that.Or products that are on the lips
that you lick your lips, andthen you digest it, that's
(20:43):
definitely an area that youmight want to avoid gluten in.
But for the most part, cosmeticproducts don't affect your body
the same way as food. There havebeen some studies that are
usually not really, reallyvalidated. That show that some
ingredients do enter your bodyand in other ways. But for the
(21:06):
most part, the FDA does notrecognize a lot of them. But
then from time to time, the FDAdoes say that there are
ingredients like parabens.Parabens are just not allowed
anymore because there has beenevidence that they have a
detrimental effect on the humanbody. So that's always changing.
There might be an ingredient nowthat we use that we think is
(21:27):
safe, and there is validatedresearch in the future that
tells us it's not safe to applytopically. So it is evolving. I
don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Justine Reichman (21:39):
I think you did. And I'm curious, though.
You've been on both sides, soI'm wondering in the last 20 to
30 years, I guess, Bed Bath &Beyond and then Drunk Elephant,
that it changed the trajectoryof beauty. And I'm wondering
what that looks like for thefuture as we continue on? Could
(22:00):
you share maybe a coupleinnovations that you're aware of
that maybe you feel are pivotalin the future of beauty?
Tamar Kamen (22:07):
Well, I think you and I have talked about upcycled
ingredients, which is reallyinteresting, and is happening
now more than ever. Last year,I've seen that as a selling
point with a lot of ingredients.There's one that I'm familiar
with that is derived from coffeegrounds. Because when you throw
the coffee out, it's grounds,and they go into a landfill
(22:29):
usually. But then thesecompanies are finding things to
do with the byproducts, thewaste products from food. So
there's a coffee ingredient,there's a seaweed where the
remnants of seaweed that mightbe used for other purposes is
now used in for cosmeticapplications, for hydration.
(22:50):
That is the case with a lot ofingredients where the
manufacturers are trying to finda purpose for the byproducts of
what they're manufacturing. Soit might be a food vendor, and
then they're saying, what can wedo with all of this orange pulp?
Is there something to do withit? It might be turning it into
packaging. I've seen mushroompackaging recently where I don't
(23:13):
know that it's a byproduct. Itmight be, but it came out of
some innovation someplace.Coffee grounds, can you turn
coffee grounds into a foldingcarton? Probably. And if it
hasn't been done yet, it willmost likely be done in the
future. So I do think that thefuture is using the whole plant
as much as possible, and noteven putting plant ingredients
(23:38):
into a landfill. So yeah, usingthe whole plant, that's one
thing. Is the upcycledtraceability? So there are some
brands where it'll tell you theexact lot of some of the active
ingredients. So that happens alot with CBD, CBD ingredients,
where the company, there mightbe a QR code, and you can scan
(23:59):
your individual product, andit'll tell you when it was made,
where it was made. And it'lltell you the strain of CBD that
was incorporated into yourproduct and the farm that it was
made on. Sometimes, it'll eventell you that this is the
farmer's name. It gets to avery, very granular level, that
transparency so that you feelmore confident in the ingredient
(24:21):
that you're using that hasentered the beauty arena. Then
additionally, I think morerobust testing, safety testing.
So there are a couple of teststhat the industry has just said,
we don't necessarily requirethem. But everybody does a
certain safety testing. Now,there are options to test things
(24:42):
even a step further, so to testfor heavy metals, to test for
contaminants. So to test forcontaminants, you might be
buying orange juice. But then,even if it's organic, you might
find that the factory that itwas processed in means that it
has exposed to metal orsomething else. Sometimes on
(25:04):
your food, it'll saymanufactured in whatever
facility. Now in beauty, they'realso adhering to some of that as
well, where we're tracking thecontaminants. And there are some
states, I believe it'sWashington State is one of the
first ones to most recently putin place some laws in regards to
contaminants, so you do have totest for heavy metals and other
(25:28):
contaminants for cosmeticproducts as well. That is going
to become more and moremainstream.
Justine Reichman (25:33):
I'm curious, that's going to become more
mainstream. People are leaningtowards having more cleaner
products. Is there a statisticyou could share about how you
see this change is going toimpact or be impacted by the
change in what we're putting inproducts, and how we're testing
(25:55):
them, the whole idea of cleanbeauty?
Tamar Kamen (26:00):
I don't know a statistic off the top of my
head, but I would refer you to awebsite like Sephora where you
can look at the percentage ofthe products that now comply
with Sephora Clean versus justregular non clean products. It's
a big percentage. And I thinkthat when these retailers are
(26:21):
approaching new brands to comeinto Sephora, Credo, anywhere,
the more transparent, thecleaner, the more natural, the
more sustainable, the better.And that is being really
communicated to these brands.That if you come to market, lots
of brands that I work with whoare just starting are
(26:42):
identifying their sustainabilityethos from the very beginning.
And from the very beginning,they know that these standards
are being looked for byretailers and by customers. So
statistically, I would say thatit's just the majority of
brands, unless they're super,super clinical. Even if they're
super clinical, they might be ina more sustainable package or
(27:05):
the Pact Collective.
Justine Reichman (27:08):
So tell me, what is the pact collective, for
those that are not familiar withthe term?
Tamar Kamen (27:12):
I'm going to tell you what it says. Let's end
packaging waste in the beautyindustry. Pact is a non profit
collective uniting the beautyindustry to reduce beauty
packaging waste, and workcollaboratively towards more
circular solutions in theindustry. So nonprofits like
that are now available to us.Five years ago? I don't think
(27:34):
that they were around five yearsago. There are those options for
brands to partner with to makemore responsible solutions, and
to be prepared when they come tomarket and they're retailing. To
know all the options of how theycan impact the Earth and
recyclability. And there's thateducation. There are those
(27:56):
resources. There are a lot ofcompanies that will plant a tree
for every folding carton thatyou sell. Something like that.
Or will donate to causes thatare environmental or otherwise,
so that the brand can becomemore involved. And I think that
that is going to be the future,is somehow giving back,
(28:16):
listening to your customers.Let's say North America is
definitely becoming moreresponsible, or trying to be.
Some of us are becoming moreresponsible, so we're listening
to customers and trying to doour best to satisfy what they're
looking for.
Justine Reichman (28:34):
I think that's great information for new
founders also, as well asexisting founders that want to
create change. But for newfounders, because many times
people look to the podcast, thispodcast for inspiration or
resources, and I think thatthat's a great resource. And
we'll include that in our shownotes as well for people. So if
(28:54):
you have any, maybe you can sendthem over when we include them.
To tag on to that though, to goa little deeper, I'm curious,
are there any ingredients thatyou think are just overlooked
and really should get a secondlook by people and people
innovating in this space?
Tamar Kamen (29:10):
I don't know. And the reason I don't know is
because not every plant ortechnology that is available has
been tested. So we found outthat, let's say liquorice
brighten skin, even skin tonebecause somebody tested it.
Maybe it started anecdotally. Mymom used liquorice on me. And
(29:33):
for this reason, and theneventually a lab and a
manufacturer tested it and theyfound out that liquorice has
that effect. We do see thathappening like turmeric. A lot
of times, it's traditionalChinese medicine or Ayurvedic
medicine. That if thisingredient has been used for
centuries, then maybe there'ssomething to it. And then
(29:53):
somebody will go and actuallytest and isolate the molecule
that has activity. We triedheirloom tomatoes and tested
heirloom tomatoes versus regulartomatoes, and do we know that
they have more polyphenols thanother tomatoes? I don't know.
And then when you apply heirloomtomato paste onto your skin
(30:15):
versus a regular tomato, willthose antioxidants have a better
effect than a regular tomato oranother source of antioxidants
entirely? I don't know. I'mexcited to see what gets tested,
but there is an endless supplyon this planet of products, or
sources that have not beentested yet. And I think there
(30:38):
are entrepreneurial companiesthat are starting to find the
next ingredient, the nextefficacious ingredient. So I
don't know if I knew, then I'dprobably be a lot more
successful if I could.
Justine Reichman (30:51):
You're very successful, but regardless, and
very knowledgeable. So as westart to wrap up, I just kind of
want to tie it in that lookpretty bold for everyone, and I
also like to tie it back tothose founders that come here
looking for inspiration, andlooking to better understand as
they build their new products.So if you could give three tips
(31:15):
to those founders that arelooking to build clean beauty
from farm to product, maybethat's a thing, right? What
would you recommend?
Tamar Kamen (31:24):
It is a thing to some extent. I would recommend
that you partner with one of thecontract manufacturers or labs
that specialize in that. Thereare individuals and companies
that that is their expertise.Not every company will be able
to tell you, or not everymanufacturer will be able to
tell you that there is anorganic form of something, or
(31:48):
that there's an ingredientcalled niacinamide. One of my
clients is soon going to belaunching with a niacinamide
that is the first fermentedniacinamide. We asked the right
lab, and the right lab told usthat there were these options.
So again, who you partner with,I think, is super important.
(32:08):
Researching independently. Thereare some resources. There's
something called UL Prospector,letter U, the letter L
Prospector. We can put it in theshow notes. And that is a
database of raw materials ofingredients for the beauty
industry. Not absolutelyeverything is on there, but most
things are on there. So if youdecide that you want to do a
(32:28):
line that's all aroundraspberries, and you put
raspberries into UL Prospector,it will give you hundreds of
ingredients that come fromraspberries. And you can read
the details there. It'll tellyou what the source is. Does it
come from this country? Or thatcountry? Does it come from the
seed of the raspberry? Does itcome from the fruit of the
raspberry, or the stem of theraspberry, the leaf of the
raspberry? So researching yourown ingredients and being more
(32:54):
and more well versed on whatyour options are, that I would
say, is super important. You canapproach a chemist or a contract
manufacturer, and we all haveour preferences that might not
be your preference. So if youcome to the table saying, I
looked at this, this is reallywhat I'm interested in. They may
not sell you what theirpreference is aggressively
(33:17):
because you've done yourresearch, and you like
raspberries. And then I wouldsay third is also have an idea
of where you do want to retail.So do you want to sell at
Sephora? Or are you going to dojust direct to consumer? Are you
going to be international? Thereare international regulations.
Europe, for example, is morerestrictive with a lot of
(33:38):
ingredients in the US. And theUS eventually adopts some of
those rules. But right now,Europe is more restrictive than
the US. Australia is morerestrictive than the US. So try
to aim big, and maybe hope thatyour product is going to be
global. But then make sure thatyou're formulating according to
(33:59):
whatever rules you want,wherever you think you're going
to be distributed. And you don'thave to be a clean product. You
don't have to be a clean brand.And also, again, the definition
of clean is very murky. But ifyou have an idea of where you
want to be sold and who your endcustomer is going to be, you'll
be able to establish your ownguardrails better. You don't
(34:22):
have to be sold in Whole Foods,but you might want to be sold in
Sephora. You might not even wantto be sold in Sephora, and you
want to only be sold ongermstore.com, something like
that, then you may not want toconsider any of these
suggestions. And that is yourethos and your identity. And
there will be plenty of peoplewho will want to buy your
(34:42):
products. Just know who youintend to sell to so that you
have your own guardrails andstay within them to formulate
your identity.
Justine Reichman (34:53):
Thank you so much, Tamar. I'm really curious,
just for those folks out there,that if they wanted to get in
touch, maybe they are trying tobuild a product and they're
looking for somebody to helpbuild their product, how could
they get in touch with you?
Tamar Kamen (35:06):
I would say, to contact me on LinkedIn would
probably be the most efficient.And if you send me a message on
LinkedIn, then I will be happyto reply.
Justine Reichman (35:14):
We'll make sure to include your LinkedIn in
the show notes, of course. Iwant to thank everyone. I want
to thank you, Tamar, for joiningme. I want to thank our guests
for tuning in. And if you arewatching this as a videocast,
don't forget that you can alsolisten to us as a podcast
wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. And if you're
listening to this as a podcast,don't forget that we do have a
video cast on YouTube. And ifyou're not following us for
(35:38):
clips and peaks into futureepisodes, you should, or I hope
you will @essential.ingredientson Instagram. Thanks so much,
and have a great day. Thanks,Tamar.
Welcome to Essential Ingredients. Today, we
have an Tamar Kamen. She's anindependent product developer in
the beauty industry with over 20years of experience. I'm super
excited to have her on becauseshe's a great wealth of
knowledge, but also becauseshe's a good friend.
Tamar Kamen (00:30):
I'm so happy to be here.
Justine Reichman (00:32):
Thanks to know. We're doing a special
series, and this series isfocused on the impact of food on
the future of beauty. So I'dlove to just get your take on
that, and then we'll go back tohow you got there.
Tamar Kamen (00:47):
Sure. Food and beauty, I think that at least
for product development, you canget inspiration anywhere. And
food and chefs have becomereally a celebrity venture. I
guess now, there's a lot moreprestige associated with food,
and a lot more experimentationand farm to table. All of that
(01:10):
has really evolved over thelast, I don't know, 20 years. So
that interest, I think, has madeits way into beauty as well,
because people hope that theirproducts are going to be
somewhat natural or derived fromsomething that they can often
pronounce. So I think that associety has become more
(01:31):
interested in food, in asupermarket or in a restaurant,
that has impacted the beautyindustry with new ingredients,
new innovation, new sources,hydroponic. That did not exist
for a lot of us a while ago. Butnow, you can source, not only
lettuce, but you can potentiallysource ingredients that you use
(01:52):
in skincare without soil.
Justine Reichman (01:56):
Wow. So if we're looking back before, we
made this pivot beauty industry.As I say, we eat, the beauty
industry made this pivot. Whenyou would look at a bottle,
oftentimes, as you said, there'dbe a million things, A, that you
couldn't pronounce. And B, thatyou didn't know what they were.
But somehow, we trusted theproducts to put them on our face
(02:17):
and our body. I've done that.Have you done that?
Tamar Kamen (02:21):
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Justine Reichman (02:22):
But now, we're all about transparency, and we
want to know what's in it. Isthat the same thing you're
finding in the beauty industry?
Tamar Kamen (02:29):
Much so. People are reading ingredient lists, and
they didn't know how to before.And with the resources that we
have, the internet influencers,podcasts, we have information at
our fingertips, and everyone canbecome an expert in what they're
interested in. So there are alot of people, starting at the
(02:56):
teen years, who are now becomingexperts in beauty, and they're
becoming critical. They'rediscerning. They're educating
themselves and looking fortransparency that is 100%
Justine Reichman (03:11):
And when they're looking for this
happening.
transparency, does that alsoinclude the planet?
Tamar Kamen (03:18):
Yes. Yeah, yeah. So for example, Sephora, starting
maybe 10 years ago, had a cleanproduct initiative where there
were no lists for the firsttime. They're not including
this, this, this. If you thinkabout one of the first brands
that did that, it was DrunkElephant. And Drunk Elephant in
(03:38):
skincare created one of thefirst free of lists, no note
list so they weren't includingparabens, they weren't including
phthalates, a bunch ofingredients. And they were
saying this is important to thecustomer for whatever safety
reasons, mostly. So Sephora tookthat on for all of their clean
(03:59):
products, or clean brands about10 years ago. That has evolved
to become a more and morerestrictive list. And now,
Sephora has taken that toanother step. And now, it's
called Clean and Planet Aware.So what that means is that the
(04:24):
responsibility to the customeris not just what's in the jar,
but it's also the jar itself.The folding carton that it comes
in. Is it recyclable? Where isit sourced? Is it source? You
can get plastic that's sourcedfrom sugarcane. You can get
virgin plastic that's justpetroleum based. You can have a
plastic that is PCR, PostConsumer Recycled plastic. But
(04:46):
then that may not be recyclable.So there are a lot of decisions
that a brand can make, andcustomers are asking for that
transparency. Do they want tobuy something in glass? It might
be breakable, it might be tooheavy, but it might be better
for the planet. Or do they wantto buy something that maybe is
not recyclable, but it will fitin their purse and they can
(05:07):
travel with it very easily. Soit's helping customers have
options. And a lot of thoseoptions are the packaging as
well, and that's more of theplanet aware. Offsetting carbon
footprint, even shippingingredients. There are some
companies that say, we try notto ship our ingredients from
across the world. We sourceeverything within 100 miles of
(05:29):
where we manufacture. So thereare degrees of that, but it is
very talked about and consideredby both consumers, retailers and
brands.
Justine Reichman (05:42):
As you're sitting here talking about glass
and all these different kinds ofthings, I'm imagining that costs
can go from one end of thespectrum to the next. So what
role does that play for both thebusinesses that are creating the
product, as well as theconsumer?
Tamar Kamen (05:57):
That is a consideration for everyone. So
obviously, the brands don't makeas much margin if the packaging
is very expensive. There arerefillable packages, for example
now, and those can be moreexpensive for a brand to produce
because they have to produce thepackage, the outer package, and
that usually comes with like arefillable pod. And then they
(06:18):
have to also produce all of thepods separately, like the Keurig
or whatever pods. So theminimums are higher. There are a
lot of considerations, andthat's not something that's
affordable to every brand. Andcustomers, again, can decide
what makes sense for them. It isfor products that are sold at
Credo, Goop, Whole Foods andthen in the Sephora Clean, and
(06:42):
then the Clean and Planet Aware.That is more important, because
it's a commitment that they'reagreeing to abide by to that
retailer and to the customer. Sothat's just something that now
is part of the ethos and partof, when you create a product,
you're going to allocate moremoney to packaging, or to the
(07:02):
formula as well. There are someingredients that if you buy from
a source that's not as wellknown, it might be less
expensive. But if you buy from avalidated, ethical source, it
may be more expensive. And Idon't know if customers are as
aware of the added expense, butbrands and retailers certainly
are.
Justine Reichman (07:22):
I know that if I go to the store, I'm looking
for a product. I want somethingthat I think is better for me
and better for the planet, andthat includes the ingredients
and the packaging. But I have athreshold, right? So everyone
has their own threshold, and Iguess I'm curious. The idea is
that these businesses arespending more, and people are
(07:43):
demanding more, and they don'talways understand the
implication of what they'reasking for. So how do businesses
provide the education so peoplecan make more informed choices?
And what role does educationplay in this?
Tamar Kamen (07:59):
Have you heard of the term greenwashing? We suffer
from a lot of that in beautybecause there are some things
that are very difficult toaccomplish. Recycling, for
example, in most markets, inmost city, products that are
under the size of a businesscard or a credit card generally
(08:21):
are not recycled because thatmarket, the facilities that they
have, the machinery lets thosesize products fall through in
the culling process. They justdon't recycle something that's
big or small. Let's say, if youthink about the cosmetic
products that you buy, a lot ofthem are smaller than that. So
if we say that a lipstick isrecyclable, there you go. That
(08:46):
could be recyclable. But in mostareas, the recycling facilities
will not recycle that. So it'sfantastic when I go to my
recycling bin in my building,it's filled with tons of small
containers. Not just cosmetics.It could be anything for food. I
have a candle right now that isa tea light, small candle. It's
(09:09):
glass. I will be putting it inthe recycling. But I'm pretty
certain that in New York, theywon't recycle that. So part of
it is green washing where thereare lots of brands, and they
might be the makeup brands whereeverything is recyclable. But in
all actuality, those productswill not be recycled because of
(09:31):
the facilities locally. Peopledon't talk about that because
the brands do want to do what isthe most responsible, and they
know that customers are going tobe asking those questions. So
there is not total transparency.Even if you wanted to recycle
something that was a certainsize, a place like Sephora or
(09:52):
Credo, sometimes they do havebins where they will take care
of recycling. But still, thereare not that. Any resources
available to recycle a lot ofbeauty products. When you ask
about the threshold that's fromfor me as a consumer, of course,
I want something that's the bestfor the planet, the best for me.
(10:15):
But I also want the performance,and I want it to look nice.
There's some products that comein. The refills are in pouches,
and you put that in your shampooor in whatever. That doesn't
work for everybody because oflots of reasons. They don't like
having a huge supply of refillsin their closet. It's extra
work. I know it's not a ton ofwork, but it's extra work. It's
(10:37):
keeping two products. You havethe product that's the retail
size, and then you have therefills. It's a different
threshold for everybody, but itis a threshold that exists.
People say that they wantcertain things. But in reality,
would I buy something that Ithought looked nicer and it's in
plastic and it's lighter? Andfor my purposes, it's easier to
(10:58):
travel with, or whatever. Iwould pick something that makes
more sense for me and mylifestyle, rather than the
potential impact theoreticallyon the planet. But I also know,
because I am, I think, fairlywell educated that even if I did
pick something that isrecyclable, I know the
(11:18):
likelihood of it being recycled.So you do see like, think about
soaps that you can buy atFarmers Market, that's not for
everybody. Or a lush soap thatis very raw looking, they cut
it, that's not for everyone.Castile soap like the Dr.
Bronner's that a lot of peopledo like, that is probably as
(11:39):
crunchy and clean. As somepeople, that is their threshold.
They're not going to get anymore natural, crunchy, clean,
recyclable. So something likethat. People have lemons.
Justine Reichman (11:50):
Yeah. I think it's really interesting. Because
I go back to when I used to buycertain things, and I wouldn't
even look at what it was made ofor what was in it. And now all
of the sudden, as a result ofbeing in the niche of food, I'm
really curious about not onlywhat the food is, but how
they're putting it togetherbecause you could have really
(12:12):
good products and really badencasing forth. You can have a
lot of waste, and you can have alot of putting stuff in
landfills, and you could betraveling, and all the fossil
fuel. There's just so manythings that go into it. So I'm
curious, because you've workedon a variety of products in the
last 20 years, and I'm sure theyweren't all very clean 20 years
(12:34):
ago. Were they? How long ago didwe start to see this trend where
really was something that peoplelooked for?
Tamar Kamen (12:44):
I would say that clean or natural became very
mainstream with The Body Shop.And The Body Shop was probably
about 20 to 30 years ago. Ithink that's they still exist.
You know what I'm talking about?
Justine Reichman (13:01):
I know what The Body Shop is, but I haven't
seen a store in 100 years.
Tamar Kamen (13:04):
I think it does exist, but maybe it's sold at
Bath and Body Works. I'm notsure. And I think it exists in
international markets. I'm notsure what really happened to it
here. Oh, it does exist becausethey got acquired again
recently. I don't know what theplan is for the future. But I'd
say that The Body Shop startedmaking clean, less crunchy and
(13:27):
hippie. I actually don't knowhow clean the formulas were, but
they were very plant forward. Soif you would be using an acne
product previously, we just sayacne product. When The Body Shop
came around, it would say teatree oil and maybe other
ingredients too, but it madepeople more familiar with the
natural ingredients that provideskin care benefits. So that's
(13:50):
when I think, let's say, greenerformulas started appearing, and
became more common for a lot ofpeople. And then the next round
of that, in my opinion, wasprobably Drunk Elephant. And
Drunk Elephant was the no-nolist. And now, every brand has a
no-no list. Previously, I don'treally remember seeing no-no
(14:13):
lists. There were some brands Iwould say, we're not going to
use a retinal or an alphahydroxy acid, but it was not for
responsibility purposes. In somecases, they didn't use
ingredients, but it was veryseldom that I saw no-no lists.
So I'd say that Drunk Elephantwas the next round of Body Shop
impact. And then after thatbecame the clean green standard,
(14:39):
Drunk Elephant brands startedtaking it beyond that, and Credo
arrived, and Goop. Credo gavepeople who have specific
requirements and standards forclean, natural, all that. It
gave them a market to onedestination where they could get
all their beauty items insteadof, oh, I really like this from
(15:02):
this Farmers Market. Or I canbuy my sunscreen here. I can buy
my face lotion someplace else.It's one destination where
people with those values can buyeverything. So those products
became more accessible in thelast 10 years or so, and it's
become more and more strict insome ways. Because now, lab
(15:24):
manufacturers are also morefamiliar with, if I'm not using
petrolatum, what's a goodsubstitute? So over the last 10
years or so, there have alsobecome more ethical, more green
options for ingredients. So thewhole market has transformed.
The whole industry hastransformed in the last 20
years.
Justine Reichman (15:43):
So when I think of some of these beauty
brands that we're talking about,I think of going to Credo and
Goop or whatever to pick upwhatever you need. But then
(16:05):
there's also beauty productsthat I get from my doctor's
office, my dermatologist office.Many doctors offices, they use
retinol, they use all thesethings in their products, and we
had actually wanted them when wewent there. We wanted them. I'm
wondering what role food, if youwill, will be part of the
(16:26):
evolution of the products thatthe doctors are selling?
Tamar Kamen (16:31):
That's tougher, because most of the products
that doctors are selling arevery engineered. The ingredients
are very engineered. So it's themost effective, newest
technology, a new molecule thatwas made at a university or by a
pharmaceutical company thatusually doesn't come from a
(16:54):
garden. You know that that's notsomething that you can't see far
back enough to when it was anactual source from the earth. So
I don't think that that's goingto impact clinical beauty as
much in the future. Because alot of times, the patients or
the customers who are going intodoctors offices or estheticians
(17:17):
getting facials and buyingproducts there, they're
comfortable buying veryclinical, man made, science made
products. And if you'recomfortable with
pharmaceuticals, even youraspirin is very synthetic, and
there's something called safesynthetics. So there are a lot
(17:37):
of brands that are saying, okay,we're not natural necessarily.
But in some cases, you'll buy aproduct that's natural or an
ingredient that's natural. Thereare a lot of essential oils that
can be very, very irritating.There are ingredients that are
very difficult to sourceethically. So there are safe
synthetics, and those might bebetter for somebody with eczema,
(17:57):
or with sensitive skin, or acneprone skin. It might not come
out of the earth, but puttingsomething that comes out of the
earth on your face is notnecessarily going to be less
irritating or more effective.Efficacy is a lot of what people
aren't willing to compromise on.
Justine Reichman (18:16):
I would say that food is not always safe
either. You can go mushroomforaging, and there's mushrooms
you should not be eating. Ithink the same thing could be
said for anything in a garden.There are things there that just
aren't a good fit. And justbecause it says it's natural, or
it's from your garden, or it'san herb, it doesn't mean that it
(18:36):
can't be poisonous or deadly.
Tamar Kamen (18:40):
Very much. So I think in food, the safe
synthetic is probably much lessapplicable than it is in in
skincare. I can't think of a tonof food that is completely
engineered without a supernatural source. Can you think of
anything that's like anengineered food that everyone
(19:02):
considers safe?
Justine Reichman (19:06):
No, I could think of some engineered food
that I don't really think isvery good for us. I don't want
to call out things necessarily,but I do think that there's
oftentimes a lot of filler andstuff, and things when they are
plant based, etcetera thatsometimes it's just better to
have the real thing. I thinkingredients really are
(19:31):
important. And I think that I goto the dermatologist and use
products from there, because Ithink there's a time and place
for everything. There areproducts, there are new
innovations coming out thatreally do work in some ways,
that maybe you don't have to goto the dermatologist for some
things, but there's still valuein, for me at least, in some of
(19:52):
the products that I get. I knowyou've worked on both sides of
the coin, right?
Tamar Kamen (19:56):
Yeah. And I would say that the difference also
between food and beauty is thatproducts that you apply to your
face or to anywhere in your bodydon't enter the bloodstream, and
they don't go through yourdigestive tract. So people who
have gluten intolerance, glutenintolerance is different from
celiac. Even celiac, with celiacthe Celiac Association of
(20:18):
America, I think it's the thatone says that you should not
have an issue applying productsthat have wheat or gluten onto
your face, because they don't gothrough your digestive tract. If
you have a severe glutenallergy, they would most likely
recommend that you not do that.Or products that are on the lips
that you lick your lips, andthen you digest it, that's
(20:43):
definitely an area that youmight want to avoid gluten in.
But for the most part, cosmeticproducts don't affect your body
the same way as food. There havebeen some studies that are
usually not really, reallyvalidated. That show that some
ingredients do enter your bodyand in other ways. But for the
(21:06):
most part, the FDA does notrecognize a lot of them. But
then from time to time, the FDAdoes say that there are
ingredients like parabens.Parabens are just not allowed
anymore because there has beenevidence that they have a
detrimental effect on the humanbody. So that's always changing.
There might be an ingredient nowthat we use that we think is
(21:27):
safe, and there is validatedresearch in the future that
tells us it's not safe to applytopically. So it is evolving. I
don't know if I answered yourquestion.
Justine Reichman (21:39):
I think you did. And I'm curious, though.
You've been on both sides, soI'm wondering in the last 20 to
30 years, I guess, Bed Bath &Beyond and then Drunk Elephant,
that it changed the trajectoryof beauty. And I'm wondering
what that looks like for thefuture as we continue on? Could
(22:00):
you share maybe a coupleinnovations that you're aware of
that maybe you feel are pivotalin the future of beauty?
Tamar Kamen (22:07):
Well, I think you and I have talked about upcycled
ingredients, which is reallyinteresting, and is happening
now more than ever. Last year,I've seen that as a selling
point with a lot of ingredients.There's one that I'm familiar
with that is derived from coffeegrounds. Because when you throw
the coffee out, it's grounds,and they go into a landfill
(22:29):
usually. But then thesecompanies are finding things to
do with the byproducts, thewaste products from food. So
there's a coffee ingredient,there's a seaweed where the
remnants of seaweed that mightbe used for other purposes is
now used in for cosmeticapplications, for hydration.
(22:50):
That is the case with a lot ofingredients where the
manufacturers are trying to finda purpose for the byproducts of
what they're manufacturing. Soit might be a food vendor, and
then they're saying, what can wedo with all of this orange pulp?
Is there something to do withit? It might be turning it into
packaging. I've seen mushroompackaging recently where I don't
(23:13):
know that it's a byproduct. Itmight be, but it came out of
some innovation someplace.Coffee grounds, can you turn
coffee grounds into a foldingcarton? Probably. And if it
hasn't been done yet, it willmost likely be done in the
future. So I do think that thefuture is using the whole plant
as much as possible, and noteven putting plant ingredients
(23:38):
into a landfill. So yeah, usingthe whole plant, that's one
thing. Is the upcycledtraceability? So there are some
brands where it'll tell you theexact lot of some of the active
ingredients. So that happens alot with CBD, CBD ingredients,
where the company, there mightbe a QR code, and you can scan
(23:59):
your individual product, andit'll tell you when it was made,
where it was made. And it'lltell you the strain of CBD that
was incorporated into yourproduct and the farm that it was
made on. Sometimes, it'll eventell you that this is the
farmer's name. It gets to avery, very granular level, that
transparency so that you feelmore confident in the ingredient
(24:21):
that you're using that hasentered the beauty arena. Then
additionally, I think morerobust testing, safety testing.
So there are a couple of teststhat the industry has just said,
we don't necessarily requirethem. But everybody does a
certain safety testing. Now,there are options to test things
(24:42):
even a step further, so to testfor heavy metals, to test for
contaminants. So to test forcontaminants, you might be
buying orange juice. But then,even if it's organic, you might
find that the factory that itwas processed in means that it
has exposed to metal orsomething else. Sometimes on
(25:04):
your food, it'll saymanufactured in whatever
facility. Now in beauty, they'realso adhering to some of that as
well, where we're tracking thecontaminants. And there are some
states, I believe it'sWashington State is one of the
first ones to most recently putin place some laws in regards to
contaminants, so you do have totest for heavy metals and other
(25:28):
contaminants for cosmeticproducts as well. That is going
to become more and moremainstream.
Justine Reichman (25:33):
I'm curious, that's going to become more
mainstream. People are leaningtowards having more cleaner
products. Is there a statisticyou could share about how you
see this change is going toimpact or be impacted by the
change in what we're putting inproducts, and how we're testing
(25:55):
them, the whole idea of cleanbeauty?
Tamar Kamen (26:00):
I don't know a statistic off the top of my
head, but I would refer you to awebsite like Sephora where you
can look at the percentage ofthe products that now comply
with Sephora Clean versus justregular non clean products. It's
a big percentage. And I thinkthat when these retailers are
(26:21):
approaching new brands to comeinto Sephora, Credo, anywhere,
the more transparent, thecleaner, the more natural, the
more sustainable, the better.And that is being really
communicated to these brands.That if you come to market, lots
of brands that I work with whoare just starting are
(26:42):
identifying their sustainabilityethos from the very beginning.
And from the very beginning,they know that these standards
are being looked for byretailers and by customers. So
statistically, I would say thatit's just the majority of
brands, unless they're super,super clinical. Even if they're
super clinical, they might be ina more sustainable package or
(27:05):
the Pact Collective.
Justine Reichman (27:08):
So tell me, what is the pact collective, for
those that are not familiar withthe term?
Tamar Kamen (27:12):
I'm going to tell you what it says. Let's end
packaging waste in the beautyindustry. Pact is a non profit
collective uniting the beautyindustry to reduce beauty
packaging waste, and workcollaboratively towards more
circular solutions in theindustry. So nonprofits like
that are now available to us.Five years ago? I don't think
(27:34):
that they were around five yearsago. There are those options for
brands to partner with to makemore responsible solutions, and
to be prepared when they come tomarket and they're retailing. To
know all the options of how theycan impact the Earth and
recyclability. And there's thateducation. There are those
(27:56):
resources. There are a lot ofcompanies that will plant a tree
for every folding carton thatyou sell. Something like that.
Or will donate to causes thatare environmental or otherwise,
so that the brand can becomemore involved. And I think that
that is going to be the future,is somehow giving back,
(28:16):
listening to your customers.Let's say North America is
definitely becoming moreresponsible, or trying to be.
Some of us are becoming moreresponsible, so we're listening
to customers and trying to doour best to satisfy what they're
looking for.
Justine Reichman (28:34):
I think that's great information for new
founders also, as well asexisting founders that want to
create change. But for newfounders, because many times
people look to the podcast, thispodcast for inspiration or
resources, and I think thatthat's a great resource. And
we'll include that in our shownotes as well for people. So if
(28:54):
you have any, maybe you can sendthem over when we include them.
To tag on to that though, to goa little deeper, I'm curious,
are there any ingredients thatyou think are just overlooked
and really should get a secondlook by people and people
innovating in this space?
Tamar Kamen (29:10):
I don't know. And the reason I don't know is
because not every plant ortechnology that is available has
been tested. So we found outthat, let's say liquorice
brighten skin, even skin tonebecause somebody tested it.
Maybe it started anecdotally. Mymom used liquorice on me. And
(29:33):
for this reason, and theneventually a lab and a
manufacturer tested it and theyfound out that liquorice has
that effect. We do see thathappening like turmeric. A lot
of times, it's traditionalChinese medicine or Ayurvedic
medicine. That if thisingredient has been used for
centuries, then maybe there'ssomething to it. And then
(29:53):
somebody will go and actuallytest and isolate the molecule
that has activity. We triedheirloom tomatoes and tested
heirloom tomatoes versus regulartomatoes, and do we know that
they have more polyphenols thanother tomatoes? I don't know.
And then when you apply heirloomtomato paste onto your skin
(30:15):
versus a regular tomato, willthose antioxidants have a better
effect than a regular tomato oranother source of antioxidants
entirely? I don't know. I'mexcited to see what gets tested,
but there is an endless supplyon this planet of products, or
sources that have not beentested yet. And I think there
(30:38):
are entrepreneurial companiesthat are starting to find the
next ingredient, the nextefficacious ingredient. So I
don't know if I knew, then I'dprobably be a lot more
successful if I could.
Justine Reichman (30:51):
You're very successful, but regardless, and
very knowledgeable. So as westart to wrap up, I just kind of
want to tie it in that lookpretty bold for everyone, and I
also like to tie it back tothose founders that come here
looking for inspiration, andlooking to better understand as
they build their new products.So if you could give three tips
(31:15):
to those founders that arelooking to build clean beauty
from farm to product, maybethat's a thing, right? What
would you recommend?
Tamar Kamen (31:24):
It is a thing to some extent. I would recommend
that you partner with one of thecontract manufacturers or labs
that specialize in that. Thereare individuals and companies
that that is their expertise.Not every company will be able
to tell you, or not everymanufacturer will be able to
tell you that there is anorganic form of something, or
(31:48):
that there's an ingredientcalled niacinamide. One of my
clients is soon going to belaunching with a niacinamide
that is the first fermentedniacinamide. We asked the right
lab, and the right lab told usthat there were these options.
So again, who you partner with,I think, is super important.
(32:08):
Researching independently. Thereare some resources. There's
something called UL Prospector,letter U, the letter L
Prospector. We can put it in theshow notes. And that is a
database of raw materials ofingredients for the beauty
industry. Not absolutelyeverything is on there, but most
things are on there. So if youdecide that you want to do a
(32:28):
line that's all aroundraspberries, and you put
raspberries into UL Prospector,it will give you hundreds of
ingredients that come fromraspberries. And you can read
the details there. It'll tellyou what the source is. Does it
come from this country? Or thatcountry? Does it come from the
seed of the raspberry? Does itcome from the fruit of the
raspberry, or the stem of theraspberry, the leaf of the
raspberry? So researching yourown ingredients and being more
(32:54):
and more well versed on whatyour options are, that I would
say, is super important. You canapproach a chemist or a contract
manufacturer, and we all haveour preferences that might not
be your preference. So if youcome to the table saying, I
looked at this, this is reallywhat I'm interested in. They may
not sell you what theirpreference is aggressively
(33:17):
because you've done yourresearch, and you like
raspberries. And then I wouldsay third is also have an idea
of where you do want to retail.So do you want to sell at
Sephora? Or are you going to dojust direct to consumer? Are you
going to be international? Thereare international regulations.
Europe, for example, is morerestrictive with a lot of
(33:38):
ingredients in the US. And theUS eventually adopts some of
those rules. But right now,Europe is more restrictive than
the US. Australia is morerestrictive than the US. So try
to aim big, and maybe hope thatyour product is going to be
global. But then make sure thatyou're formulating according to
(33:59):
whatever rules you want,wherever you think you're going
to be distributed. And you don'thave to be a clean product. You
don't have to be a clean brand.And also, again, the definition
of clean is very murky. But ifyou have an idea of where you
want to be sold and who your endcustomer is going to be, you'll
be able to establish your ownguardrails better. You don't
(34:22):
have to be sold in Whole Foods,but you might want to be sold in
Sephora. You might not even wantto be sold in Sephora, and you
want to only be sold ongermstore.com, something like
that, then you may not want toconsider any of these
suggestions. And that is yourethos and your identity. And
there will be plenty of peoplewho will want to buy your
(34:42):
products. Just know who youintend to sell to so that you
have your own guardrails andstay within them to formulate
your identity.
Justine Reichman (34:53):
Thank you so much, Tamar. I'm really curious,
just for those folks out there,that if they wanted to get in
touch, maybe they are trying tobuild a product and they're
looking for somebody to helpbuild their product, how could
they get in touch with you?
Tamar Kamen (35:06):
I would say, to contact me on LinkedIn would
probably be the most efficient.And if you send me a message on
LinkedIn, then I will be happyto reply.
Justine Reichman (35:14):
We'll make sure to include your LinkedIn in
the show notes, of course. Iwant to thank everyone. I want
to thank you, Tamar, for joiningme. I want to thank our guests
for tuning in. And if you arewatching this as a videocast,
don't forget that you can alsolisten to us as a podcast
wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. And if you're
listening to this as a podcast,don't forget that we do have a
video cast on YouTube. And ifyou're not following us for
(35:38):
clips and peaks into futureepisodes, you should, or I hope
you will @essential.ingredientson Instagram. Thanks so much,
and have a great day. Thanks,Tamar.
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