April 9, 2025 • 34 mins
In this solo episode, host Beth Cougler Blom talks about how podcasting is an act of facilitation and the many behind-the-scenes ways she brings facilitation skills into each episode. Beth reflects on how she approaches podcast conversations with intention, clarity, and care—just like she would in a learning experience.
Beth also talks about:
- Building trust quickly with podcast guests
- Balancing structure with flexibility in conversations
- Deep listening and managing airtime
- Creating an inclusive and emotionally authentic space
- Designing each episode with the listener experience in mind
Links From the Episode
- Mary Chan, Organized Sound Productions
- EP 31 Perfecting Timing with Beth Cougler Blom
- EP 50 Using Our Voice in Facilitation with Mary Chan
- EP 13 Experimenting with Experiential Learning with Romy Alexandra
- Smartless podcast
Connect with the Facilitating on Purpose podcast:
- Follow Facilitating on Purpose on Instagram, LinkedIn, or YouTube
- Show notes and transcripts available at facilitatingonpurpose.com
Connect with Host Beth Cougler Blom:
- Give feedback or suggest upcoming show topics or guests at hello@bcblearning.com
- Visit bcblearning.com to explore Beth's company's services in facilitation and learning design
- Purchase a copy of Beth's book, Design to Engage
- Follow Beth on Instagram or LinkedIn
Podcast production services by Mary Chan of Organized Sound Productions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi there.
Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose.
I'm your host, Beth Cougler Blom,
and I'm looking forward to spending some time with you
today.
In this episode,
I'm going to go through a whole bunch of things that I
think about when I'm podcasting that I can directly relate
back to facilitation skills.
I am kind of this weird person, I guess,
(00:24):
that moves through the world, thinking about facilitation,
thinking about designing learning, designing meetings,
and a lot of times I'm in situations where I go, oh wow,
that thing that isn't learning or that thing that isn't
facilitation,
it's so related to facilitation or to learning design,
and here's why.
(00:45):
And I have these kind of internal conversations with myself
in my head.
And all of a sudden I started thinking, oh, when I podcast,
when I meet guests and have those conversations and think
about all the things that I think about as I go through the
conversation with the guest,
it's facilitation skills in action.
(01:07):
And I often say to my clients and other people that I'm
teaching facilitation to that we can facilitate in one-on
-one environments just like we can with our groups when
we're leading meetings or leading workshops.
So this episode is all about podcasting as facilitation.
And I'm going to share some of these back behind the scenes
(01:27):
things with you about what I'm thinking about.
And maybe even though you're not a podcaster,
you could be thinking about how you can practice
facilitation skills anywhere in the world with the things
that you're doing as well.
But if you are a podcaster,
maybe this could be even more helpful for you to think
about how you use your facilitation skills when you're
podcasting as well.
(01:49):
Okay, so let's get started.
The first thing that I thought I would talk about are the
things that I do to try to create a comfortable
conversation space with my guest.
Sometimes this includes meeting the guest beforehand.
We have kind of a pre-meeting where we flush out what the
topic's going to be. But sometimes I'm meeting the guest
for the first time right when we are about to record and we
(02:12):
have about a 10-minute or so conversation in which we
really need to start building trust with each other very
quickly and connection with each other. Because my goal for
both of us is that we just act like real people in the
conversation and we can get right down to that realness,
that honesty,
(02:33):
that connection that I hope comes across to you when you're
listening to the episode.
I mean,
I have a thing that I send all guests ahead of time.
It's kind of a podcasting guest guide and it answers some
of the questions that they might have around how the
conversation will go. And I don't send questions to them
ahead of time.
I'm very clear about that.
We know the general area of what we're going to talk about
(02:56):
for sure.
They give me some of the things that they want to talk
about.
And so we have a bullet point list,
maybe six to eight things—on my part anyway—of what I think
the episode is going to be about based on our agreement of
that.
But we really have not scripted anything in advance.
So in that meeting, when I get them into Zoom,
(03:17):
where we do the podcast recording,
my goal is to just put that person at ease as fast as
possible.
And I've had a lot of meetings in Zoom over the years since
long before the pandemic,
I've been working online for many, many years,
probably almost 20 years now,
I've been designing for online and I've been facilitating
online since about,
(03:38):
it was probably 2012.
So let's say it's been about 13 years of meeting people
online at least. This is something I've done a lot and I
know how to do, and I know how to do that quickly.
I basically just try to show up as a human being [chuckles]
and smile and laugh and just be myself in that
conversation.
(03:58):
And right away I can get that guest to just share and learn
with me as we go through the experience.
I usually let them know things like, Hey, I have Mary Chan,
my audio editor,
and she supports us behind the scenes in this podcast.
And so if you, the guest,
if you say anything that you really don't want to have
published on the episode,
(04:18):
or if you have a cough that needs to come forward,
or I've had people with a truck that has driven by in the
background where they thought it was kind of noisy,
I'll just tell them, you know what?
Stop, give a pause,
and then just start your sentence again.
And Mary is so good.
She just cuts all that stuff out for us.
And then we sound perfect in the episode.
(04:40):
And so I actually did have someone say, Oh,
you're so perfect in the episodes.
Like you're great at this.
Well,
that's actually not exactly how I sound [laughs] when I
record or, well, I guess it's pretty close.
I mean, we don't usually cut out a lot,
but just some of those little false starts.
Mary will catch those and get them out of there for us.
Most of the time in the last now 54 episodes, I think,
(05:03):
by the time I have this, this will be 55,
we've almost never had something where it's gone really off
the rails and we've decided to cut it out.
I think it's happened once where someone said something
accidentally that wasn't going to be something that they
were comfortable with and we did end up cutting it out.
But anyway,
I let them know about all that editing that can happen so
(05:23):
they can just really get comfortable to have the
conversation with me and know that my intention is that it
is a safe space as much as we can make it a safe space.
And my goal is their comfort and of course my comfort and
just us trying to have a coffee chat really with each other
about the topic at hand.
(05:45):
So I have this outline and this theme,
but I really like to try to stay flexible within it.
And I usually tell the guest,
I just have one question for you at the start and then I
see where it goes and then I have to really just use my
deep listening skills—and I'll talk about that later—to
jump off from where they're going in the conversation and
(06:07):
kind of go with the things that they're interested in but
always keep my plan in the back of my mind so that I can
stay within that topic area and I can help the guest stay
on track as well.
So I have a bit of that flexibility within structure piece
that we use as facilitators where I know where we're going
and I need to work with what the guest is giving me and
(06:30):
perhaps sometimes bring them back a little bit to the
original plan so we don't go off the rails too
much [chuckles] or kind of go down a path that goes into
almost a different topic area. Because we all get excited
about what we do and we could jump off and head all sorts
of different directions so that means that I have to just
keep listening to them and making sure that I have that
(06:50):
overarching plan in the back of my mind as we go through
the conversation.
Another thing that I need to do is always keep my eye on
the clock.
You know as facilitators this is something that we have to
do.
We've usually intentionally designed some sort of a plan
when we're leading a session of course.
I mean I don't have a lesson plan or an agenda for a
(07:10):
podcast conversation like I would for a meeting or for a
workshop I'm leading but I meet the guests at the top of
the hour and we are going to get out of the conversation by
the end of the hour and so I'm always kind of darting my
eye...
Well not always.
I guess maybe two times or three times during the episode
recording I would look at the clock or look at the timing
(07:32):
that is on my GarageBand which I use to record my own audio
feed.
I'll see how long we've been in conversation and my mind is
kind of always whirring a little bit in the background
about how much time we've got left and what we've talked
about and where we're going in the conversation.
So timing—I think did a whole episode actually about timing
(07:54):
as a facilitator,
so I'll put that in the show notes for you—but timing in
the podcasting conversation space is super relevant as
well.
I'm always thinking about how much time we've got.
And of course,
I really don't want to take more of the guest time than I
said that I was going to take with them.
And we do that with our participants as well, right?
(08:15):
When people come to a workshop of ours,
we don't keep them past the time that we said the workshop
was going to take.
I mean,
we don't keep them three and a half hours if we said it was
going to be a three hour workshop.
So it's just my respect to my guest to stay on time and
watch the time as we go surreptitiously as much as
possible.
And of course,
you'll hear me say some things as we get towards the end of
(08:37):
the conversation that are kind of that wrapping up phrasing
or the conversation that we have when we're about to wrap
things up.
I mean,
we use that in phone calls with each other sometimes,
don't we, or Zoom calls,
but we sometimes can do that in facilitated spaces.
And certainly in podcast conversations,
you're going to hear me say those kind of things around,
that give the indication to the guests that we're almost
(08:59):
done and we're almost at our time. Without actually saying
the word 'time', often case.
Another thing that I think about and do maybe sometimes
even unconsciously during a podcast conversation is that
I'm responsible for holding the space of that conversation,
just like I am responsible for that as a facilitator.
(09:21):
And I manage the energy of that conversation a little bit.
I mean, I'm managing my own energy,
but I'm also perhaps managing or being influenced by the
energy of the guest.
And I think it goes back and forth both ways.
Their energy affects mine, mine affects theirs.
And you might hear me even sound different with different
(09:43):
guests because of that natural mirroring that I do when I'm
with someone.
I don't know where that came from in my life.
Maybe it's because I became a facilitator.
Maybe it was something that has grown inside of me or that
is an innate skill that I had from long ago. Years and
years ago when I started my career,
(10:04):
I worked a lot across cultures and I lived in France,
I lived in China,
and I noticed that kind of chameleon-ish nature [chuckles]
in myself, if you will, at the time,
because I was very good at working across cultures because
in some ways I was able to just mirror the culture that I
was in and act accordingly.
(10:26):
There's a certain thing that maybe you think is fake about
that, but I don't choose to think of it that way.
I choose to think of it as just a relationship building or
a collaboration thing where,
why would I be in the situation where I'm
super loud when the other person is really more sedate and
(10:46):
low voiced and you know, whatever.
Or why would I be very low voiced and slow when they're
really energetic and very excited?
I mean,
there's a mirroring that we do in conversations that I
think we do in the facilitation room as well.
And sometimes we might think about this as facilitators. T
(11:07):
hat if the more intentionally we think about how we're
going to show up,
maybe our participants are going to catch some of that
energy and be that as well.
So sometimes I remark on it to myself that I kind of sound
different when I'm talking to different people.
And of course, now that I've mentioned it,
you're probably going to think that as well [laughs] and n
(11:28):
otice that in the next few episodes that I do.
I think you might also be able to tell when I know the
person. You know,
they're a friend of mine or they're someone that I've met
before or have had a connection with before.
And maybe you could even tell when it's someone that's new
to me or I don't know them very well.
And it could come through in my voice.
(11:49):
It doesn't mean it's a good or bad thing.
It's just maybe there's a comfort level that I have with
certain people who I know or are perhaps natural,
energetic human beings that we could just get right down to
being excited with each other right away.
And other people are a little bit more sedate and I need to
figure out how to connect with them with my voice.
(12:12):
So I hear that in the episodes that I do and maybe you will
as well in the episodes to come. Because I do the
transcripts for each episode myself—
I mean,
I use an AI tool and then I perfect them myself—I'm listening
to myself and the guest, of course,
several times for each episode.
(12:32):
I have the conversation and I listen back to it at least
twice to be able to do the transcript and then check the
final version when it comes or when it publishes.
So I'm both listening to myself and the things that I do,
and of course the guest as well.
And I see it when I create the show notes or the transcript
for the episode because I want people who can't hear the
(12:56):
episode to be able to read exactly what is happening.
So I put things in square brackets that need to be there to
reflect the energy of the conversation.
So you'll often see, if you check the show notes,
that I've put in "chuckles" or "laughs" or "smiles" or,
you know, "makes a sighing sound" or something like that,
(13:18):
like all of those little things that we do
with our voices,
I need to put those in the show notes so that I'm inclusive
to the people who actually can't hear the episode.
And then I realize how much I actually laugh [chuckles] and
how much I smile [smiles] and how much that kind of stuff
just comes into my natural state of being.
(13:38):
Maybe I'm just a little bit of a goofy person and sometimes
I laugh when I shouldn't laugh [smiling] or something like
that.
But hopefully that is also why you keep listening to the
podcast.
And maybe it's just me being myself across the airwaves of
podcasting.
Occasionally I kind of think, oh,
maybe I shouldn't have laughed there or something.
(13:59):
But there's just that whole piece of using authentic
emotion in a conversation and just showing up as me,
the real human being behind the computer here,
having a hopefully real conversation with my guest.
I don't always smile and laugh.
Of course,
sometimes you will have heard me being really serious.
We're not always talking about you know,
(14:20):
really exciting topics that we would laugh around.
Sometimes we're talking about really serious things or hard
things that we have to deal with in our roles.
So I'm just really trying to use emotion naturally and that
it would match the moment of what we're talking about.
Of course, in facilitation,
we can use vocal variety or the activities that we do in
(14:43):
the session or all sorts of things to affect the mood of
the group.
So getting quieter, getting louder, you know,
when we're serious or when we're excited on the opposite
side of that, these are all things we can think about.
And we do think about when we are facilitating a really
great episode to listen to.
That actually is my episode that I did recently with Mary,
(15:04):
my audio editor, because, of course, she is a voice expert.
And we talked about that vocal variety and actually in the
space of let's be happy with the voice that we have.
But let's also use it intentionally to shape the mood of
whatever we're doing,
whether it's a podcast conversation or whether it's a
facilitated session of some kind.
(15:26):
Now,
let's think about the things that I do to ask questions of
my guest and just navigate the conversation thoughtfully.
Just like I would do when I'm facilitating,
I try to ask open-ended questions and avoid the yes/no
questions.
So open-ended questions,
I'm really just trying to ask one good question that gives
(15:48):
the guest something to jump off from from that point
forward and keep that conversation going.
As I do the transcript work, though,
I realize that I actually often will give my opinion about
something and then I'll just ask it like a question to see
if the guest feels that way, too,
or if they have something that they want to add on after
(16:10):
the thing that I've offered up to them.
So sometimes it actually isn't phrased like a question,
but I use my voice to ask the question. And I hope you like
that going back and forth a bit with the way I'm doing
that.
I'm a professional in this field and of course I have my
own opinions and the things that I do,
but I really want to make more space for the guest to share
(16:33):
what they know and what's happening for them.
But it's a little bit of a back and forth that has to
happen because I want you to feel that you really are just
sitting and having coffee with us and listening to us talk
about things related to designing and facilitating
learning.
And so sometimes I do have to share a little bit of my own
thing because I feel like you might want to hear that as
(16:56):
well, not just the guest.
Although [says slightly slowly] I am super aware of my own
airtime that I take up in the episode.
Actually even doing solo episodes like this are so
different from what I really want to do. Because as a
facilitator I don't lecture,
I don't make long presentations,
I actively avoid doing that myself.
(17:18):
And I always work with my clients around not doing it for
too long themselves either.
I always want to design and facilitate participatory
learning experiences.
So even just standing here and recording a solo episode for
25 minutes or 30 minutes of an episode length,
it's kind of weird for me.
But clearly,
(17:38):
I always have a lot to say because they aren't five
minutes. [smiling] They usually are 25 or 30 minutes or
whatever it is for a solo episode.
And so I do have a lot to share, but when I'm with a guest,
it's so different [with emphasis] because I become so much
more conscious of giving them the air and giving them the
(17:58):
space.
And when I'm listening to podcast episodes on other
podcasts,
I really get frustrated when the host is interjecting too
much,
sharing too much of their own thing and not giving enough
air time to the guest.
It's so frustrating for me.
I'm usually driving my car and kind of talking out loud
(18:20):
going, "L
et her talk!" or something like that. [laughs] And so I
have a little frustration like that in podcasts,
listening as a listener.
And I try not to do it myself as a host.
I think that I am successful in that.
But of course, you're the ultimate judge of that,
whether or not you think I'm good at sharing the air in my
(18:40):
podcast conversations and hopefully I'm doing okay.
Incidentally,
the software that I'm currently using for transcription
tracks the amount of time that I talk versus the amount of
time that my guest talks.
So I can check that if I want.
And I don't often look at that, but I can.
(19:02):
And sometimes I'm just really aware that the guest is
talking way more than I am.
And sometimes I hardly get a word in edgewise. [laughs]
It's kind of funny! But usually it's a bit more back and
forth and maybe a bit skewed on their side,
more equal. And the odd time I've gotten a guest where it's
really way more of their talking and a little bit less of
(19:24):
myself which is just fine. But just know I'm always back
here trying to figure out how I can shine the guest forward
and me recede a little bit into the background because why
else would I have asked them to come on the show if I
didn't want to listen to them?
Of course in facilitation situations you know that that's
what we do. Often we put that in group agreements that we
(19:44):
get the participants to think about ahead of time,
that "share the air" or sometimes we call it "step forward
step back". You know,
just trying to figure out how to balance participation or
encourage people to balance their own participation I guess
I should say is something that we usually always think
about as facilitators. And I definitely think about it as a
(20:05):
podcaster.
Another thing that I do when I'm in the conversation is
that I try not to interrupt.
I mean,
there's a technical aspect to this because I don't want
Zoom to get confused and kind of cut out both of us when
it's trying to listen to both of us at the same time.
But really,
I've asked the guest [chuckles] on the show for a reason.
(20:28):
So I'm trying not to interrupt because not interrupting is
a way to help them get what they have to say out and to
give them focus in the episode.
So why would we interrupt people?
It's not respectful in general.
And I really try not to do that.
And I think that I'm pretty successful in that because I
(20:48):
would see it in the show notes when I went to transcribe
the episode.
So trying not to interrupt and practicing deep listening as
well are two things I really try to do when I'm in that
conversation.
Of course, we do that as facilitators.
We have to listen hard [with emphasis] as facilitators
because especially in times when we're working with groups
(21:10):
where we don't know what their subject matter is
necessarily.
I'm thinking more facilitation of meetings in this case.
When I go and facilitate strategic planning sessions,
for example,
I don't always know what the group is talking about.
And sometimes I'll say that and just kind of remind them
that they know best.
And I don't have to know all the things,
but I'm trying my best to kind of keep up.
(21:32):
In other cases,
we absolutely have to know and we have to ask questions of
the group to make sure we know.
But just that piece around just trying to listen as hard as
possible to what the person is trying to say is something I
think about in podcasting as well.
I've got to admit,
I've had probably a couple of episodes so far where I've
(21:54):
been kind of just racing to catch up with where the brain
of that guest is going.
And maybe you've had episodes where you've listened to it,
you're going,
does Beth really know what this guest is saying? [laughs]
Maybe you've laughed at me for it, I don't know!
But sometimes I've felt that where I'm just kind of
struggling going, What are they talking about?
(22:15):
Do I know what they're talking about?
Do I understand what they're talking about here?
Of course, we have that in the facilitation room as well,
and I just wanted to admit to you that sometimes I feel
like that with my guests. But the cool thing is that I've
actually had feedback that is positive around how I am in
podcast episodes where I do try to bring my beginner's
(22:38):
mindset to things.
You know,
sometimes guests are talking about stuff that I've thought
about for 20 years,
and I've been down that road. And I've written a book in
the field,
so there's not a lot of things that are truly brand new to
me anymore in some respects. But that deep listening is
something that I continue to try to do so that I do keep
(22:59):
learning,
and I don't assume that I know everything about this wide,
wide thing that we all do called designing and facilitating
learning experiences—or meetings.
And so that deep listening is part of it,
I guess that beginner's mindset is part of it as well,
that I'm okay to say,
I don't really understand what you're talking about there.
(23:21):
Or is it this?
Is that what you're trying to say?
And so you'll hear me say those kinds of things to a guest.
And I don't feel bad about that because I'm thinking, well,
kind of like when I put my learning designer hat on,
if I don't know what the guest is saying,
or understand their line of thinking,
I'm kind of thinking that maybe you don't either. [chuckles]
(23:41):
And you're okay with me asking the question or admitting
that I don't really understand what they're talking about
because you are literally probably listening thinking the
same thing.
So just like in my learning design role,
when I ask questions of the subject matter expert to tell
me more because I don't really understand,
if I don't understand,
the learner isn't going to understand either.
(24:03):
I kind of do this for you when I'm in a podcast
conversation as well.
If I don't understand,
I'm going to assume maybe you don't either,
or maybe it's just me,
but I'm going to ask the question anyway.
And hopefully we'll all benefit from me asking that
question.
One more thing that's kind of related to the deep listening
piece is that you sometimes will hear me bring back
(24:24):
something that the guest has said earlier in the
conversation to the later part of the conversation.
And I think actually one guest mentioned that one time that
they noticed that I was doing that.
And of course that's what we do as facilitators as well.
The more we deep listen to our participants or the guest or
whoever we're talking with,
then we can remember those things that they've said earlier
(24:48):
and bring them back into the conversation.
And it shows that we're listening and it actually helps all
of us link topics together in our brains and sort things
out and maybe understand the topic a little bit more.
So I'm actively deep listening to be able to make some of
those links in the conversation for me,
(25:08):
but also hopefully for you all as well.
Going back to that piece I said around the learning
designer in me,
and me just always thinking about the learner when I'm
working on a learning design project.
This last part that I wanted to talk about really has to do
with the listener's experience as well.
(25:29):
And I touched on this a little bit,
but I'll just be a little bit more clear, I suppose,
about this aspect of what I'm trying to do.
So as I said before,
I'm really okay with admitting what I don't know.
I've been doing this work for more than 20 years.
I've had a company in the field for almost 14 years,
(25:49):
and I know a lot.
I'm really solid and okay with that.
And there's tons of stuff, as I said,
I still don't know either,
or maybe a guest is talking about something in a slightly
new way that I've never heard before.
I'm okay with saying I don't know, and I'm still learning,
because that's actually part of my whole approach that I
bring to my work.
(26:11):
I'm learning in the field.
I always will be.
You're learning in the field.
You always will be.
That's just what it means to be in a learning profession.
So I'm okay with admitting things that I don't know or I
don't understand on the episode because that's what it
means to be in our field.
Actually,
a funny example of that is when I was chatting with my
(26:33):
guest, Romy Alexandra.
This was back in season one,
but we did a whole episode about experimenting with
experiential learning.
And in one of the activities that we facilitated with each
other, Romy talked to me about jamon,
the food jamon from Spain.
And when she said that word, I was literally like,
(26:56):
I don't even know what she just said. [laughs] Of course,
it's a word in a different language and it's something I've
never had before. I'm on the west coast of Canada,
maybe you can get that somewhere here,
but it just hadn't been part of my experience yet.
And I'm looking back at the show notes now and what I said
was, "Oh wow, I've never even heard of that food! Jamon?"
(27:16):
And I said, in square brackets, "[they both laugh]".
Like we laughed and I said, "
I don't even know what that is!" And she said,
it's a cured meat,
like what you would usually see on charcuterie boards.
I mean, it's a funny example,
but that's one thing that has always been really important
to me to just say that I don't know.
And sometimes we have a little laugh about it.
(27:37):
I listen to the podcast called SmartLess sometimes with
Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman and Will Arnett.
And I think they do this funny little thing where they will
explain things that they talk about that have to do with
show business for Sean Hayes's sister, Kathy,
who I think lives in Wisconsin.
So they always,
they've come into this little patter about explaining
(28:00):
things "for Kathy" when a term is mentioned.
And I've always thought that was kind of interesting
because we know as soon as they go, "Oh, for Kathy", blah,
blah, blah,
they're explaining something for all of us really,
when we don't know that showbiz thing.
So I have that sometimes in the back of my mind when a
guest says something that I don't know, or I know,
(28:21):
and I think that maybe some of you might not know,
and then I have to ask the guest about it.
So again,
it's a little thing in the back of my head that I'm doing
to try to keep your experience top of mind.
In the learning world, we would say that's learner-centred,
right?
Maybe it's listener-centred in the podcasting world.
I always have to think about what you want and what you
(28:43):
need as you listen to episodes,
and hopefully I'm doing a pretty good job at that.
One of the weird things I have to do in the podcast to also
think about the listener's experience is that I have to use
multiple words to describe something. And it's so
frustrating sometimes, [chuckles]
especially when I look at show notes, and I think, oh gosh,
(29:05):
I could have been more eloquent about that.
But I have to say, facilitator, trainer, instructor,
educator, or workshop, session,
course. [laughs] There's so many different kinds of things
that people who facilitate learning call themselves or do
in their roles.
And I want to make sure that the language that I use draws
(29:28):
in everyone that's listening,
no matter whether you work in post-secondary or in
corporate settings or nonprofits or K to 12 education.
I mean, ah,
I'm doing it right now because I don't know where you all
work. [chuckles]
Some of you work for yourself.
Some of you work in organizations.
Some of you work in agencies or on your own.
(29:50):
And just using language to try to capture all of you and
all of your experiences is a little tricky sometimes,
but I try my best to use language that is inclusive to all.
But you tell me if I'm being successful at that or if it's
just annoying to hear all of those different words all the
time [chuckles] that we use in our field.
(30:11):
Lastly, in this section,
one thing that Mary taught me when she taught me how to
podcast right in the very beginning—she has a program,
by the way, that I signed up for.
And she excellently taught me how to do this and helped me
get the show going and of course,
has supported me since day one of the podcast or day minus
90 or whatever it was.
(30:32):
Mary taught me to talk to the listener.
And the other week I actually got this feedback from a
friend of mine.
She said, "Oh,
I really feel like you're talking to me" when you're doing
the, especially the solo episodes, right?
But sometimes I talk to you in the guest episodes as well.
And Mary taught me that. It's the way that I want you to
(30:54):
feel like you're part of this experience and I'm thinking
about you. And I've designed in a way this conversation for
you and what you need.
And this is what we do as designers of
learning, designers of process as well.
If we're not designing things for our learners or for our
(31:15):
participants, why are we doing it? [laughs] I mean,
there's a little bit of self-servingness going on in
podcasting for sure.
I mean, I've already talked about why I podcast.
I do it in part because it serves me and it helps me learn
more in the field.
But really I wouldn't do it for the 50 some odd episodes
(31:36):
that I've done so far, unless it was working for you.
And I do those things and all of these things I've been
talking about to try to make sure that it is working for
you and you are actually learning something from this
podcast that will be useful to you in your work as a
facilitator.
(31:56):
So those are just some of the things that I think about
when I am doing my podcasting,
doing my conversations with guests or some of the things I
think about with solo episodes.
I haven't gone into solo episodes too much,
maybe it would just be too long of an episode if I went
down that rabbit hole as well. But I want to just leave you
(32:17):
with this thought as well.
When you're walking around in your world and in your life
and doing things that are podcasting maybe, but likely not,
it's likely something else.
When you're having meetings or when you're talking with
your family or whoever it happens to be,
how are you using facilitation skills in that moment?
(32:38):
Are you thinking intentionally about some of the skills of
facilitation that I've talked about today or other things
we've talked about on the podcast or you know from our
field? Are you using those things intentionally in the work
that you're doing? And if you're not or if you're not
enough,
this is a great invitation for you to think about that a
(32:58):
little bit more and see how you can cross some of those
worlds together.
Use what you know about facilitation to embrace the things
that you're doing in your life where it could support it as
well.
I hope this has been interesting for you to listen to how I
podcast and how I bring my facilitation skills to my
(33:19):
podcasting.
Thanks for sticking with me and I hope you've enjoyed the
episode.
On the next episode of the podcast,
I'm going to talk with my friend, Marisa Gelfusa.
Marisa and I are going to talk about the research that
she's doing in her graduate program about poetry and
writing in education.
(33:39):
I can't wait to have another conversation with Marisa.
She was someone that I interviewed and featured in my book,
Design to Engage.
So I talked to her oh so long ago about her thoughts around
learning and education,
and I can't wait to see what she's up to next with using
poetry and writing in education.
I think that you're going to like this one too.
(34:00):
Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose.
If you were inspired by something in this episode,
please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them
expand their facilitation practice too.
To find the show notes,
give me feedback or submit ideas for future episodes,
visit facilitatingonpurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary
(34:21):
Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this
episode.
Happy facilitating!
Hi there.
Welcome to Facilitating on Purpose.
I'm your host, Beth Cougler Blom,
and I'm looking forward to spending some time with you
today.
In this episode,
I'm going to go through a whole bunch of things that I
think about when I'm podcasting that I can directly relate
back to facilitation skills.
I am kind of this weird person, I guess,
(00:24):
that moves through the world, thinking about facilitation,
thinking about designing learning, designing meetings,
and a lot of times I'm in situations where I go, oh wow,
that thing that isn't learning or that thing that isn't
facilitation,
it's so related to facilitation or to learning design,
and here's why.
(00:45):
And I have these kind of internal conversations with myself
in my head.
And all of a sudden I started thinking, oh, when I podcast,
when I meet guests and have those conversations and think
about all the things that I think about as I go through the
conversation with the guest,
it's facilitation skills in action.
(01:07):
And I often say to my clients and other people that I'm
teaching facilitation to that we can facilitate in one-on
-one environments just like we can with our groups when
we're leading meetings or leading workshops.
So this episode is all about podcasting as facilitation.
And I'm going to share some of these back behind the scenes
(01:27):
things with you about what I'm thinking about.
And maybe even though you're not a podcaster,
you could be thinking about how you can practice
facilitation skills anywhere in the world with the things
that you're doing as well.
But if you are a podcaster,
maybe this could be even more helpful for you to think
about how you use your facilitation skills when you're
podcasting as well.
(01:49):
Okay, so let's get started.
The first thing that I thought I would talk about are the
things that I do to try to create a comfortable
conversation space with my guest.
Sometimes this includes meeting the guest beforehand.
We have kind of a pre-meeting where we flush out what the
topic's going to be. But sometimes I'm meeting the guest
for the first time right when we are about to record and we
(02:12):
have about a 10-minute or so conversation in which we
really need to start building trust with each other very
quickly and connection with each other. Because my goal for
both of us is that we just act like real people in the
conversation and we can get right down to that realness,
that honesty,
(02:33):
that connection that I hope comes across to you when you're
listening to the episode.
I mean,
I have a thing that I send all guests ahead of time.
It's kind of a podcasting guest guide and it answers some
of the questions that they might have around how the
conversation will go. And I don't send questions to them
ahead of time.
I'm very clear about that.
We know the general area of what we're going to talk about
(02:56):
for sure.
They give me some of the things that they want to talk
about.
And so we have a bullet point list,
maybe six to eight things—on my part anyway—of what I think
the episode is going to be about based on our agreement of
that.
But we really have not scripted anything in advance.
So in that meeting, when I get them into Zoom,
(03:17):
where we do the podcast recording,
my goal is to just put that person at ease as fast as
possible.
And I've had a lot of meetings in Zoom over the years since
long before the pandemic,
I've been working online for many, many years,
probably almost 20 years now,
I've been designing for online and I've been facilitating
online since about,
(03:38):
it was probably 2012.
So let's say it's been about 13 years of meeting people
online at least. This is something I've done a lot and I
know how to do, and I know how to do that quickly.
I basically just try to show up as a human being [chuckles]
and smile and laugh and just be myself in that
conversation.
(03:58):
And right away I can get that guest to just share and learn
with me as we go through the experience.
I usually let them know things like, Hey, I have Mary Chan,
my audio editor,
and she supports us behind the scenes in this podcast.
And so if you, the guest,
if you say anything that you really don't want to have
published on the episode,
(04:18):
or if you have a cough that needs to come forward,
or I've had people with a truck that has driven by in the
background where they thought it was kind of noisy,
I'll just tell them, you know what?
Stop, give a pause,
and then just start your sentence again.
And Mary is so good.
She just cuts all that stuff out for us.
And then we sound perfect in the episode.
(04:40):
And so I actually did have someone say, Oh,
you're so perfect in the episodes.
Like you're great at this.
Well,
that's actually not exactly how I sound [laughs] when I
record or, well, I guess it's pretty close.
I mean, we don't usually cut out a lot,
but just some of those little false starts.
Mary will catch those and get them out of there for us.
Most of the time in the last now 54 episodes, I think,
(05:03):
by the time I have this, this will be 55,
we've almost never had something where it's gone really off
the rails and we've decided to cut it out.
I think it's happened once where someone said something
accidentally that wasn't going to be something that they
were comfortable with and we did end up cutting it out.
But anyway,
I let them know about all that editing that can happen so
(05:23):
they can just really get comfortable to have the
conversation with me and know that my intention is that it
is a safe space as much as we can make it a safe space.
And my goal is their comfort and of course my comfort and
just us trying to have a coffee chat really with each other
about the topic at hand.
(05:45):
So I have this outline and this theme,
but I really like to try to stay flexible within it.
And I usually tell the guest,
I just have one question for you at the start and then I
see where it goes and then I have to really just use my
deep listening skills—and I'll talk about that later—to
jump off from where they're going in the conversation and
(06:07):
kind of go with the things that they're interested in but
always keep my plan in the back of my mind so that I can
stay within that topic area and I can help the guest stay
on track as well.
So I have a bit of that flexibility within structure piece
that we use as facilitators where I know where we're going
and I need to work with what the guest is giving me and
(06:30):
perhaps sometimes bring them back a little bit to the
original plan so we don't go off the rails too
much [chuckles] or kind of go down a path that goes into
almost a different topic area. Because we all get excited
about what we do and we could jump off and head all sorts
of different directions so that means that I have to just
keep listening to them and making sure that I have that
(06:50):
overarching plan in the back of my mind as we go through
the conversation.
Another thing that I need to do is always keep my eye on
the clock.
You know as facilitators this is something that we have to
do.
We've usually intentionally designed some sort of a plan
when we're leading a session of course.
I mean I don't have a lesson plan or an agenda for a
(07:10):
podcast conversation like I would for a meeting or for a
workshop I'm leading but I meet the guests at the top of
the hour and we are going to get out of the conversation by
the end of the hour and so I'm always kind of darting my
eye...
Well not always.
I guess maybe two times or three times during the episode
recording I would look at the clock or look at the timing
(07:32):
that is on my GarageBand which I use to record my own audio
feed.
I'll see how long we've been in conversation and my mind is
kind of always whirring a little bit in the background
about how much time we've got left and what we've talked
about and where we're going in the conversation.
So timing—I think did a whole episode actually about timing
(07:54):
as a facilitator,
so I'll put that in the show notes for you—but timing in
the podcasting conversation space is super relevant as
well.
I'm always thinking about how much time we've got.
And of course,
I really don't want to take more of the guest time than I
said that I was going to take with them.
And we do that with our participants as well, right?
(08:15):
When people come to a workshop of ours,
we don't keep them past the time that we said the workshop
was going to take.
I mean,
we don't keep them three and a half hours if we said it was
going to be a three hour workshop.
So it's just my respect to my guest to stay on time and
watch the time as we go surreptitiously as much as
possible.
And of course,
you'll hear me say some things as we get towards the end of
(08:37):
the conversation that are kind of that wrapping up phrasing
or the conversation that we have when we're about to wrap
things up.
I mean,
we use that in phone calls with each other sometimes,
don't we, or Zoom calls,
but we sometimes can do that in facilitated spaces.
And certainly in podcast conversations,
you're going to hear me say those kind of things around,
that give the indication to the guests that we're almost
(08:59):
done and we're almost at our time. Without actually saying
the word 'time', often case.
Another thing that I think about and do maybe sometimes
even unconsciously during a podcast conversation is that
I'm responsible for holding the space of that conversation,
just like I am responsible for that as a facilitator.
(09:21):
And I manage the energy of that conversation a little bit.
I mean, I'm managing my own energy,
but I'm also perhaps managing or being influenced by the
energy of the guest.
And I think it goes back and forth both ways.
Their energy affects mine, mine affects theirs.
And you might hear me even sound different with different
(09:43):
guests because of that natural mirroring that I do when I'm
with someone.
I don't know where that came from in my life.
Maybe it's because I became a facilitator.
Maybe it was something that has grown inside of me or that
is an innate skill that I had from long ago. Years and
years ago when I started my career,
(10:04):
I worked a lot across cultures and I lived in France,
I lived in China,
and I noticed that kind of chameleon-ish nature [chuckles]
in myself, if you will, at the time,
because I was very good at working across cultures because
in some ways I was able to just mirror the culture that I
was in and act accordingly.
(10:26):
There's a certain thing that maybe you think is fake about
that, but I don't choose to think of it that way.
I choose to think of it as just a relationship building or
a collaboration thing where,
why would I be in the situation where I'm
super loud when the other person is really more sedate and
(10:46):
low voiced and you know, whatever.
Or why would I be very low voiced and slow when they're
really energetic and very excited?
I mean,
there's a mirroring that we do in conversations that I
think we do in the facilitation room as well.
And sometimes we might think about this as facilitators. T
(11:07):
hat if the more intentionally we think about how we're
going to show up,
maybe our participants are going to catch some of that
energy and be that as well.
So sometimes I remark on it to myself that I kind of sound
different when I'm talking to different people.
And of course, now that I've mentioned it,
you're probably going to think that as well [laughs] and n
(11:28):
otice that in the next few episodes that I do.
I think you might also be able to tell when I know the
person. You know,
they're a friend of mine or they're someone that I've met
before or have had a connection with before.
And maybe you could even tell when it's someone that's new
to me or I don't know them very well.
And it could come through in my voice.
(11:49):
It doesn't mean it's a good or bad thing.
It's just maybe there's a comfort level that I have with
certain people who I know or are perhaps natural,
energetic human beings that we could just get right down to
being excited with each other right away.
And other people are a little bit more sedate and I need to
figure out how to connect with them with my voice.
(12:12):
So I hear that in the episodes that I do and maybe you will
as well in the episodes to come. Because I do the
transcripts for each episode myself—
I mean,
I use an AI tool and then I perfect them myself—I'm listening
to myself and the guest, of course,
several times for each episode.
(12:32):
I have the conversation and I listen back to it at least
twice to be able to do the transcript and then check the
final version when it comes or when it publishes.
So I'm both listening to myself and the things that I do,
and of course the guest as well.
And I see it when I create the show notes or the transcript
for the episode because I want people who can't hear the
(12:56):
episode to be able to read exactly what is happening.
So I put things in square brackets that need to be there to
reflect the energy of the conversation.
So you'll often see, if you check the show notes,
that I've put in "chuckles" or "laughs" or "smiles" or,
you know, "makes a sighing sound" or something like that,
(13:18):
like all of those little things that we do
with our voices,
I need to put those in the show notes so that I'm inclusive
to the people who actually can't hear the episode.
And then I realize how much I actually laugh [chuckles] and
how much I smile [smiles] and how much that kind of stuff
just comes into my natural state of being.
(13:38):
Maybe I'm just a little bit of a goofy person and sometimes
I laugh when I shouldn't laugh [smiling] or something like
that.
But hopefully that is also why you keep listening to the
podcast.
And maybe it's just me being myself across the airwaves of
podcasting.
Occasionally I kind of think, oh,
maybe I shouldn't have laughed there or something.
(13:59):
But there's just that whole piece of using authentic
emotion in a conversation and just showing up as me,
the real human being behind the computer here,
having a hopefully real conversation with my guest.
I don't always smile and laugh.
Of course,
sometimes you will have heard me being really serious.
We're not always talking about you know,
(14:20):
really exciting topics that we would laugh around.
Sometimes we're talking about really serious things or hard
things that we have to deal with in our roles.
So I'm just really trying to use emotion naturally and that
it would match the moment of what we're talking about.
Of course, in facilitation,
we can use vocal variety or the activities that we do in
(14:43):
the session or all sorts of things to affect the mood of
the group.
So getting quieter, getting louder, you know,
when we're serious or when we're excited on the opposite
side of that, these are all things we can think about.
And we do think about when we are facilitating a really
great episode to listen to.
That actually is my episode that I did recently with Mary,
(15:04):
my audio editor, because, of course, she is a voice expert.
And we talked about that vocal variety and actually in the
space of let's be happy with the voice that we have.
But let's also use it intentionally to shape the mood of
whatever we're doing,
whether it's a podcast conversation or whether it's a
facilitated session of some kind.
(15:26):
Now,
let's think about the things that I do to ask questions of
my guest and just navigate the conversation thoughtfully.
Just like I would do when I'm facilitating,
I try to ask open-ended questions and avoid the yes/no
questions.
So open-ended questions,
I'm really just trying to ask one good question that gives
(15:48):
the guest something to jump off from from that point
forward and keep that conversation going.
As I do the transcript work, though,
I realize that I actually often will give my opinion about
something and then I'll just ask it like a question to see
if the guest feels that way, too,
or if they have something that they want to add on after
(16:10):
the thing that I've offered up to them.
So sometimes it actually isn't phrased like a question,
but I use my voice to ask the question. And I hope you like
that going back and forth a bit with the way I'm doing
that.
I'm a professional in this field and of course I have my
own opinions and the things that I do,
but I really want to make more space for the guest to share
(16:33):
what they know and what's happening for them.
But it's a little bit of a back and forth that has to
happen because I want you to feel that you really are just
sitting and having coffee with us and listening to us talk
about things related to designing and facilitating
learning.
And so sometimes I do have to share a little bit of my own
thing because I feel like you might want to hear that as
(16:56):
well, not just the guest.
Although [says slightly slowly] I am super aware of my own
airtime that I take up in the episode.
Actually even doing solo episodes like this are so
different from what I really want to do. Because as a
facilitator I don't lecture,
I don't make long presentations,
I actively avoid doing that myself.
(17:18):
And I always work with my clients around not doing it for
too long themselves either.
I always want to design and facilitate participatory
learning experiences.
So even just standing here and recording a solo episode for
25 minutes or 30 minutes of an episode length,
it's kind of weird for me.
But clearly,
(17:38):
I always have a lot to say because they aren't five
minutes. [smiling] They usually are 25 or 30 minutes or
whatever it is for a solo episode.
And so I do have a lot to share, but when I'm with a guest,
it's so different [with emphasis] because I become so much
more conscious of giving them the air and giving them the
(17:58):
space.
And when I'm listening to podcast episodes on other
podcasts,
I really get frustrated when the host is interjecting too
much,
sharing too much of their own thing and not giving enough
air time to the guest.
It's so frustrating for me.
I'm usually driving my car and kind of talking out loud
(18:20):
going, "L
et her talk!" or something like that. [laughs] And so I
have a little frustration like that in podcasts,
listening as a listener.
And I try not to do it myself as a host.
I think that I am successful in that.
But of course, you're the ultimate judge of that,
whether or not you think I'm good at sharing the air in my
(18:40):
podcast conversations and hopefully I'm doing okay.
Incidentally,
the software that I'm currently using for transcription
tracks the amount of time that I talk versus the amount of
time that my guest talks.
So I can check that if I want.
And I don't often look at that, but I can.
(19:02):
And sometimes I'm just really aware that the guest is
talking way more than I am.
And sometimes I hardly get a word in edgewise. [laughs]
It's kind of funny! But usually it's a bit more back and
forth and maybe a bit skewed on their side,
more equal. And the odd time I've gotten a guest where it's
really way more of their talking and a little bit less of
(19:24):
myself which is just fine. But just know I'm always back
here trying to figure out how I can shine the guest forward
and me recede a little bit into the background because why
else would I have asked them to come on the show if I
didn't want to listen to them?
Of course in facilitation situations you know that that's
what we do. Often we put that in group agreements that we
(19:44):
get the participants to think about ahead of time,
that "share the air" or sometimes we call it "step forward
step back". You know,
just trying to figure out how to balance participation or
encourage people to balance their own participation I guess
I should say is something that we usually always think
about as facilitators. And I definitely think about it as a
(20:05):
podcaster.
Another thing that I do when I'm in the conversation is
that I try not to interrupt.
I mean,
there's a technical aspect to this because I don't want
Zoom to get confused and kind of cut out both of us when
it's trying to listen to both of us at the same time.
But really,
I've asked the guest [chuckles] on the show for a reason.
(20:28):
So I'm trying not to interrupt because not interrupting is
a way to help them get what they have to say out and to
give them focus in the episode.
So why would we interrupt people?
It's not respectful in general.
And I really try not to do that.
And I think that I'm pretty successful in that because I
(20:48):
would see it in the show notes when I went to transcribe
the episode.
So trying not to interrupt and practicing deep listening as
well are two things I really try to do when I'm in that
conversation.
Of course, we do that as facilitators.
We have to listen hard [with emphasis] as facilitators
because especially in times when we're working with groups
(21:10):
where we don't know what their subject matter is
necessarily.
I'm thinking more facilitation of meetings in this case.
When I go and facilitate strategic planning sessions,
for example,
I don't always know what the group is talking about.
And sometimes I'll say that and just kind of remind them
that they know best.
And I don't have to know all the things,
but I'm trying my best to kind of keep up.
(21:32):
In other cases,
we absolutely have to know and we have to ask questions of
the group to make sure we know.
But just that piece around just trying to listen as hard as
possible to what the person is trying to say is something I
think about in podcasting as well.
I've got to admit,
I've had probably a couple of episodes so far where I've
(21:54):
been kind of just racing to catch up with where the brain
of that guest is going.
And maybe you've had episodes where you've listened to it,
you're going,
does Beth really know what this guest is saying? [laughs]
Maybe you've laughed at me for it, I don't know!
But sometimes I've felt that where I'm just kind of
struggling going, What are they talking about?
(22:15):
Do I know what they're talking about?
Do I understand what they're talking about here?
Of course, we have that in the facilitation room as well,
and I just wanted to admit to you that sometimes I feel
like that with my guests. But the cool thing is that I've
actually had feedback that is positive around how I am in
podcast episodes where I do try to bring my beginner's
(22:38):
mindset to things.
You know,
sometimes guests are talking about stuff that I've thought
about for 20 years,
and I've been down that road. And I've written a book in
the field,
so there's not a lot of things that are truly brand new to
me anymore in some respects. But that deep listening is
something that I continue to try to do so that I do keep
(22:59):
learning,
and I don't assume that I know everything about this wide,
wide thing that we all do called designing and facilitating
learning experiences—or meetings.
And so that deep listening is part of it,
I guess that beginner's mindset is part of it as well,
that I'm okay to say,
I don't really understand what you're talking about there.
(23:21):
Or is it this?
Is that what you're trying to say?
And so you'll hear me say those kinds of things to a guest.
And I don't feel bad about that because I'm thinking, well,
kind of like when I put my learning designer hat on,
if I don't know what the guest is saying,
or understand their line of thinking,
I'm kind of thinking that maybe you don't either. [chuckles]
(23:41):
And you're okay with me asking the question or admitting
that I don't really understand what they're talking about
because you are literally probably listening thinking the
same thing.
So just like in my learning design role,
when I ask questions of the subject matter expert to tell
me more because I don't really understand,
if I don't understand,
the learner isn't going to understand either.
(24:03):
I kind of do this for you when I'm in a podcast
conversation as well.
If I don't understand,
I'm going to assume maybe you don't either,
or maybe it's just me,
but I'm going to ask the question anyway.
And hopefully we'll all benefit from me asking that
question.
One more thing that's kind of related to the deep listening
piece is that you sometimes will hear me bring back
(24:24):
something that the guest has said earlier in the
conversation to the later part of the conversation.
And I think actually one guest mentioned that one time that
they noticed that I was doing that.
And of course that's what we do as facilitators as well.
The more we deep listen to our participants or the guest or
whoever we're talking with,
then we can remember those things that they've said earlier
(24:48):
and bring them back into the conversation.
And it shows that we're listening and it actually helps all
of us link topics together in our brains and sort things
out and maybe understand the topic a little bit more.
So I'm actively deep listening to be able to make some of
those links in the conversation for me,
(25:08):
but also hopefully for you all as well.
Going back to that piece I said around the learning
designer in me,
and me just always thinking about the learner when I'm
working on a learning design project.
This last part that I wanted to talk about really has to do
with the listener's experience as well.
(25:29):
And I touched on this a little bit,
but I'll just be a little bit more clear, I suppose,
about this aspect of what I'm trying to do.
So as I said before,
I'm really okay with admitting what I don't know.
I've been doing this work for more than 20 years.
I've had a company in the field for almost 14 years,
(25:49):
and I know a lot.
I'm really solid and okay with that.
And there's tons of stuff, as I said,
I still don't know either,
or maybe a guest is talking about something in a slightly
new way that I've never heard before.
I'm okay with saying I don't know, and I'm still learning,
because that's actually part of my whole approach that I
bring to my work.
(26:11):
I'm learning in the field.
I always will be.
You're learning in the field.
You always will be.
That's just what it means to be in a learning profession.
So I'm okay with admitting things that I don't know or I
don't understand on the episode because that's what it
means to be in our field.
Actually,
a funny example of that is when I was chatting with my
(26:33):
guest, Romy Alexandra.
This was back in season one,
but we did a whole episode about experimenting with
experiential learning.
And in one of the activities that we facilitated with each
other, Romy talked to me about jamon,
the food jamon from Spain.
And when she said that word, I was literally like,
(26:56):
I don't even know what she just said. [laughs] Of course,
it's a word in a different language and it's something I've
never had before. I'm on the west coast of Canada,
maybe you can get that somewhere here,
but it just hadn't been part of my experience yet.
And I'm looking back at the show notes now and what I said
was, "Oh wow, I've never even heard of that food! Jamon?"
(27:16):
And I said, in square brackets, "[they both laugh]".
Like we laughed and I said, "
I don't even know what that is!" And she said,
it's a cured meat,
like what you would usually see on charcuterie boards.
I mean, it's a funny example,
but that's one thing that has always been really important
to me to just say that I don't know.
And sometimes we have a little laugh about it.
(27:37):
I listen to the podcast called SmartLess sometimes with
Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman and Will Arnett.
And I think they do this funny little thing where they will
explain things that they talk about that have to do with
show business for Sean Hayes's sister, Kathy,
who I think lives in Wisconsin.
So they always,
they've come into this little patter about explaining
(28:00):
things "for Kathy" when a term is mentioned.
And I've always thought that was kind of interesting
because we know as soon as they go, "Oh, for Kathy", blah,
blah, blah,
they're explaining something for all of us really,
when we don't know that showbiz thing.
So I have that sometimes in the back of my mind when a
guest says something that I don't know, or I know,
(28:21):
and I think that maybe some of you might not know,
and then I have to ask the guest about it.
So again,
it's a little thing in the back of my head that I'm doing
to try to keep your experience top of mind.
In the learning world, we would say that's learner-centred,
right?
Maybe it's listener-centred in the podcasting world.
I always have to think about what you want and what you
(28:43):
need as you listen to episodes,
and hopefully I'm doing a pretty good job at that.
One of the weird things I have to do in the podcast to also
think about the listener's experience is that I have to use
multiple words to describe something. And it's so
frustrating sometimes, [chuckles]
especially when I look at show notes, and I think, oh gosh,
(29:05):
I could have been more eloquent about that.
But I have to say, facilitator, trainer, instructor,
educator, or workshop, session,
course. [laughs] There's so many different kinds of things
that people who facilitate learning call themselves or do
in their roles.
And I want to make sure that the language that I use draws
(29:28):
in everyone that's listening,
no matter whether you work in post-secondary or in
corporate settings or nonprofits or K to 12 education.
I mean, ah,
I'm doing it right now because I don't know where you all
work. [chuckles]
Some of you work for yourself.
Some of you work in organizations.
Some of you work in agencies or on your own.
(29:50):
And just using language to try to capture all of you and
all of your experiences is a little tricky sometimes,
but I try my best to use language that is inclusive to all.
But you tell me if I'm being successful at that or if it's
just annoying to hear all of those different words all the
time [chuckles] that we use in our field.
(30:11):
Lastly, in this section,
one thing that Mary taught me when she taught me how to
podcast right in the very beginning—she has a program,
by the way, that I signed up for.
And she excellently taught me how to do this and helped me
get the show going and of course,
has supported me since day one of the podcast or day minus
90 or whatever it was.
(30:32):
Mary taught me to talk to the listener.
And the other week I actually got this feedback from a
friend of mine.
She said, "Oh,
I really feel like you're talking to me" when you're doing
the, especially the solo episodes, right?
But sometimes I talk to you in the guest episodes as well.
And Mary taught me that. It's the way that I want you to
(30:54):
feel like you're part of this experience and I'm thinking
about you. And I've designed in a way this conversation for
you and what you need.
And this is what we do as designers of
learning, designers of process as well.
If we're not designing things for our learners or for our
(31:15):
participants, why are we doing it? [laughs] I mean,
there's a little bit of self-servingness going on in
podcasting for sure.
I mean, I've already talked about why I podcast.
I do it in part because it serves me and it helps me learn
more in the field.
But really I wouldn't do it for the 50 some odd episodes
(31:36):
that I've done so far, unless it was working for you.
And I do those things and all of these things I've been
talking about to try to make sure that it is working for
you and you are actually learning something from this
podcast that will be useful to you in your work as a
facilitator.
(31:56):
So those are just some of the things that I think about
when I am doing my podcasting,
doing my conversations with guests or some of the things I
think about with solo episodes.
I haven't gone into solo episodes too much,
maybe it would just be too long of an episode if I went
down that rabbit hole as well. But I want to just leave you
(32:17):
with this thought as well.
When you're walking around in your world and in your life
and doing things that are podcasting maybe, but likely not,
it's likely something else.
When you're having meetings or when you're talking with
your family or whoever it happens to be,
how are you using facilitation skills in that moment?
(32:38):
Are you thinking intentionally about some of the skills of
facilitation that I've talked about today or other things
we've talked about on the podcast or you know from our
field? Are you using those things intentionally in the work
that you're doing? And if you're not or if you're not
enough,
this is a great invitation for you to think about that a
(32:58):
little bit more and see how you can cross some of those
worlds together.
Use what you know about facilitation to embrace the things
that you're doing in your life where it could support it as
well.
I hope this has been interesting for you to listen to how I
podcast and how I bring my facilitation skills to my
(33:19):
podcasting.
Thanks for sticking with me and I hope you've enjoyed the
episode.
On the next episode of the podcast,
I'm going to talk with my friend, Marisa Gelfusa.
Marisa and I are going to talk about the research that
she's doing in her graduate program about poetry and
writing in education.
(33:39):
I can't wait to have another conversation with Marisa.
She was someone that I interviewed and featured in my book,
Design to Engage.
So I talked to her oh so long ago about her thoughts around
learning and education,
and I can't wait to see what she's up to next with using
poetry and writing in education.
I think that you're going to like this one too.
(34:00):
Thank you for listening to Facilitating on Purpose.
If you were inspired by something in this episode,
please share it with a friend or a colleague to help them
expand their facilitation practice too.
To find the show notes,
give me feedback or submit ideas for future episodes,
visit facilitatingonpurpose.com. Special thanks to Mary
(34:21):
Chan at Organized Sound Productions for producing this
episode.
Happy facilitating!
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.