Navigating Funding: Venture Capital, Integrated Capital, and Entrepreneurial Identity

Himalaya Rao-Potlapally discusses the dynamics of venture capital and startup funding, advising founders on when to avoid VC money. The episode delves into various funding types and the significance of the TomTom festival. Himalaya shares insights on starting a venture fund, early startup events, and the importance of mentorship for new entrepreneurs. The conversation touches on investor motivations, matching capital to business needs, and integrated capital approaches. Challenges like funding disparities and fostering innovation in rural areas are explored, along with entrepreneurship's role in economic development in Hampton Roads. Lifestyle tips include gardening and local dining, complemented by thoughts on regional identity and Hampton Wealth Week.

 

(0:00) Convincing founders not to take venture capital money

(0:54) Introduction to the episode

(2:34) The VC and startup world pace and introductions

(7:44) Understanding different types of funding

(8:41) Guest's entrepreneurial background

(10:47) TomTom festival significance and anecdotes

(15:58) Starting a venture fund and its challenges

(21:07) Early startup events and building momentum

(26:02) Welcoming new entrepreneurs and mentorship

(31:09) Investor motivations and capital matching

(38:07) Venture capital suitability for businesses

(42:26) Integrated capital for diverse funding needs

(43:35) Addressing funding disparities

(46:07) Innovation in rural areas and relocation

(50:19) Entrepreneurship for economic development in Hampton Roads

(54:04) Lifestyle: Gardening and local dining recommendations

(56:10) Hampton Wealth Week and regional identity

(1:01:03) Closing remarks and the importance of identity for entrepreneurs

 

- Building the right relationships and holding out for the right investors is crucial for long-term success.

 

- Entrepreneurs need to understand the different types of funding and match them to the appropriate stage and goals of their business.

 

- Trust and network-building are essential for securing investment, particularly for underrepresented founders who may lack initial connections.

 

https://www.bfm.fund/

https://vcpartners.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/venture-partners-fund/

Application to next Capital Allocator fellowship: https://form.jotform.com/243574991206160

Innovate Hampton Roads is on a mission to foster the growth of Hampton Roads' innovation and technology ecosystem by educating entrepreneurs and business leaders, providing access to essential resources, and building connections that drive synergistic partnerships. We are committed to creating a supportive environment that empowers entrepreneurs, strengthens the regional economy, and fuels long-term prosperity. By growing, guiding, and connecting key players in the ecosystem—including investors, industry leaders, universities, corporate partners, and community organizations—we aim to build a more innovative and inclusive economy. It’s time to unify our efforts, amplify our collective voice, and streamline resources to benefit aspiring entrepreneurs, students, employees, and businesses throughout the region. 

 

Don't miss out on key business events, local success stories, and expert insights—subscribe to This Week in 757 and stay ahead in Hampton Roads' innovation and business community. https://bit.ly/twi757newsletter

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I would say, actually, I spend the majority of my time convincing founders not to take venture capital money. And then even if they want to, then trying to, like, help them understand what type of dilutive funding is gonna be best because there's a difference between angel money and venture money and PE money. There's a difference, like you mentioned, even in the VC world of the different types of funders, whether that's a lead, whether it's a follow, whether that's vertical specific or general. And, like, you know, I think when it comes to the founding journey, I can definitely empathize why it feels like any money, it will help us stay afloat, which is what we need right now. But, also, I think that in the long term, the companies that get the farthest have the right people at the table.

(00:01):
And sometimes that can be hard to hold out, while you're building the right relationships.
Zach, welcome to this thing called the Fervent Four show. I'm told this is episode two fifty seven. Always great to see you.
Allegedly. Thanks. That was allegedly to the episode number, not allegedly that it's good to see me. I I didn't wanna I didn't want the viewers to think that there was, you know, like look. If I started wearing, like, a white shirt or, like, a red shirt, maybe they would think that, like, we're beefing or something.
We should do that one day. Oh. Oh. Oh. Yeah.
We should you know what? We should have done it for April fools, but we didn't. Next year.
There is always next year.
Yeah. I think we're in year six of this now, by the way.
Which is really, really crazy. So, yeah, started in 2020, so we're we're into year six.
You know some mistakes I've made in podcasts in the past is jumping to, like, be like, okay. Let let's do more. And then, like, I think that's increasing quantity does not always mean progression, I think, if that's the right word.
Yeah. Because there there there gets to be a lot of pressure, one, to meet that cadence, to meet that the the I guess it's the same as operating a startup. You know? You focus on doing one thing really well as opposed to, you start spreading yourself too thin and you run into some trouble. But I'm looking for I am looking forward to today's guests.
I was and I was think thinking. I don't know. Maybe that'll be the first one out of the shoot, but I don't know. I know that we're all super busy, and I'm just trying to think how we met. I remember the
Wasn't it, like, TomTom or something like that?
It was a TomTom. Was that right? We have
And then we and I met her at a random elevator at Assembly, I believe.
Yeah. Because and that was the And think I
asked him a Netflix question. She looked at me like I was an idiot, and I was like, oh, oops. Like, no. You.
I was like, hey. I'm gonna meet Emilea. She's she's coming to this event at the rooftop at Assembly, but that is that is 100% right. We met at TomTom last year.
Has it only been one year?
A lot has happened in that
year. Right?
Too much has happened. It it feels like years. March?

(00:22):
No. It's in April. So so matter of fact
It's been twelve months.
Yeah. TomTom's taking place right now.
Incredible.
It's crazy.
We've lived too many years in this one last twelve months.
I mean, do you find that in the in the the VC angel world? Do you think that we are living in, like, the equivalent of dog years or cat years that it's, like, seven to one?
I think so. You know, I was just talking to, one of my friends who, is at Vamos, and we were talking about how there's, like, the actual work that you need to do. Right? Like, where you sit down, do the work. But then so much of that is just like the the part of the iceberg that you can see.
The majority of our work is, like, the relationship building and, like, the cultivation of the connections and the resources. And all of that, it feels like happens before, during, after work, and sometimes it I don't know. It just feels like it expands the work so much. So Right. Do think
I tell a lot of people that. I'm like, I spend so much time, coffee, lunch, just establishing trust Yeah. And relationships with people. And and I'm sure that please feel free to elaborate. But then then you meet founders, and then they're like, hey.
Can you introduce me to so and so? It's like, I've been building this brand and this reputation for this is year 15. You know? It's just like, you've kinda got to go through my litmus test before I just throw your name into the mix. You know?
I it's because I can't risk the the brand or the reputation.
That's one of the things I think most founders, most people do way too quickly. They're, like, on an introduction frenzy. And I'm like, nope. You don't get many of those from me because of just what you just said, Tim. Like, it's like that you just met someone.
Okay. Great. Like, know nothing about you. You could be a serial killer. Right?
I mean, I know that's an extreme thing. But, like, you hear people that are like, just introduce everyone to everyone. I'm like, yeah. But who is that? What's the reputation from that person if you're just the person that's just like, oh, go talk to them.
There's, like, no there's no quality control on there. And I and it's great if someone will introduce you to that person, but, like, at the same time, be cautious in there.
I think the other thing is that you can introduce someone to another person, but what is the effectiveness of the, relationship, and what is the effectiveness of what they're trying to get out of it? Like, oftentimes, I tell people, like, you know, a lot of times, like, founders, of course, are looking for investor introductions. And we often talk about, like, this dichotomy between, like, a lot of evaluation versus not and, like, how some founders, as we hear on the news, right, can just, like, come up with an idea and then they get funded. But it I feel like it has to do with what you two are talking about with the trust. Right?
Like, if if a friend came to you, if a family member came to you and they said, like, hey. Can I borrow the keys to your car? You would use the trust that you have with them and the relationship you've built with them as a proxy for, like, their credibility and give them the keys to the car. But if you have a stranger coming to you, then the the vetting process is so much higher where you're like, okay. What's your driving record?
Let me see, like, proof of license. Let me see other things. Right? I need to know, like, maybe there's a collateral to be able to ensure that the car comes back. And so I think sometimes people don't, like, realize fundamentally how important trust is to, like, getting the effectiveness of a relationship and an introduction.
Yeah. And I don't go I don't go crazy in the sense of, like, there needs to be a a double opt in in order to make the introduction. I mean, I'm I'm I'm not even worried about that stuff. But, like, other things that people don't necessarily realize is, like especially from the founder standpoint, it's just like every every angel, every VC, they have a vertical, they have a stage, they have a thing that they're looking for, and it's just like, hey. You just don't meet that.
You know? This is this person that you want this intro to is not what you're looking for. So, yeah, your thoughts on on that in terms of how you how you approach that.

(00:43):
Yeah. I mean, I I would say, actually, I spend the majority of my time convincing founders not to take venture capital money And even if they want to, then trying to, like, help them understand what type of dilutive funding is gonna be best because there's a difference between angel money and venture money and PE money. There's a difference, like you mentioned, even in the VC world of the different types of funders, whether that's a lead, whether it's a follow, whether that's vertical specific or general. And, like, you know, I think when it comes to the founding journey, I can definitely empathize why it feels like any money, it will help us stay afloat, which is what we need right now. But, also, I think that in the long term, the companies that get the farthest have the right people at the table.
And sometimes that can be hard to hold out, while you're building the right relationships.
How how did you get involved with entrepreneurship? What was that first thing that that that brought to work brought you here today?
Yeah. Well, I my wife and I are actually from New York, from the Northeast, and I was a social worker working in school. She was a teacher working in schools. When we eventually left being a teacher and a social worker, we went and we were trying to figure out, like, what to do next. Number one, we really loved what we did, but it just wasn't making ends meet.
You know? We were nannies after school as a waitress on the weekend, and we still just couldn't make it work. And there was just a lot of red tape around what we could do and just in terms of proactive change. And so we were looking for something that had a bigger impact and also, could keep us, having our ends meet. And so we ended up going and getting an MBA together.
And it was during that time actually that I learned about entrepreneurship in a very formal way. And I know it sounds crazy, but when I learned about entrepreneurship as a career, that's when, like, you know, things kind of, like, lit up for me and the pieces came together. And I was like, oh, Natasha and I have started three businesses. And I know it seems crazy, like, how would you not know that those are businesses? But I think that coming from The Bronx, coming from New York, we don't call them businesses.
We don't call ourselves business owners. It was just a hustle. Right? Like, it was just, like, something else to ensure that we weren't able to, make ends meet. And so that's, you know, like, kind of, like, how I came into entrepreneurship is actually not realizing all the bounds of entrepreneurship and then, learning really formally that anyone can be an entrepreneur and also that entrepreneurship can take many different forms, but that you don't have to have a million dollars.
You don't have to have a PhD and an expertise. You can, be iterative and figure out business ownership as you go.
Those military jets are so loud that they knock something down at your office. That was crazy. I don't know what it was. Maybe it was a cat. I don't know.
But it sounded crazy. You know, I'm the type of guy that just reacts to something that I hear. See? And I feel like you just gotta do it. You know, one time we had a guy.
This is, like, episode seven maybe, so way back in the time machine. Some guy started mowing his lawn. Yeah. Lawn service. Yeah.
Where yeah. His lawn service comes on. And in the middle of the broadcast, he just gonna start screaming at the guy. Got I mean, you gotta engage with the content. That's that's
Well, it's interesting because I can tell which way the wind is is blowing just in the sense of so they're either gonna go over my house or your office. You know? So it's just the wind because you take off into the wind. So the they must be going your direction. Get them out.
The wind?
Yes. Why? Yeah. You need so you can get the lift of the plane.
Okay. So thank you for that. I I learned something new today. I would have thought you want the wind to
At your at your back. No. You need you need the the headwind to to give you the lift and then likewise. But they will come into a headwind when they land. So when they when they get done doing where we're going wherever they're going in Himalaya, they'll come over my house to for the landing.
So sorry. So sorry. Yeah.
No. It's all good. But but I'm sorry you haven't heard that cliche, Zach. You know? Like, when you're facing headwinds, you know, remember that that planes take off into the wind.
You know? It's just, in order to
fly All things you want me to remember, that's the thing.

(01:04):
But you you have a great you have a great memory. You have, like I've
never heard
of sales. And I guess that can only happen if it's coming towards you.
Yeah. But I would think that they just have so much I don't if the word thrust is the right word, but, like, that they can get that anyway. Yeah. Because on on a is that for all planes or just military?
Yeah. All all planes. And that's why you typically have, your two sets of runways going crisscrossing so that if whatever way the wind is blowing, they, can use whatever runway that they need to versus taking off into a crosswind or whatever. Wow.
I feel like I'm learning much from this episode.
That's what we do here. We we are the true teachers of of of the world. You know? You know, the tags say they're gonna say aviation experts.
Which is 100% not the case. So, hopefully, I'm not spreading, fake news, but I I am pretty
do here.
Pretty confident in my at least those that basic aviation knowledge.
I think we should have a disclaimer that says anything that Zach Miller says, please fact check because it's probably not true as I almost broke something here on my
I feel like I need to throw something off my desk.
So you guys met about this time last year. TomTom is, like, a venture festival and or something like that?
Yeah. It's a community grassroots, type of effort that, brings founders, entrepreneurs, arts, all that stuff together.
Okay.
You know, it's too bad. Of all, you know, many, many things, the COVID had an impact on. TomTom was one of those. They were really starting to hit their stride, and then they were forced to take a little pause. So, yeah, this is year two from to get things back.
The redo step two. Got it. And, Himalaya, were you involved at all in kind of business start up community down here at that point or refresh into it? Like, what
I think that was the that was the big reveal with VIPC. Right? They're getting ready to make that announcement.
Yeah. Yeah. So VIPC had selected a certain number of funds to receive SSBCI funding at that time, and so they brought in those seven funds, the BFM fund included, to be able to be on panels, to be able to talk about the funds, to be able to interact with entrepreneurs. So I actually had a really great time because it was such a fabulous introduction, particularly to the entire ecosystem that exists even outside of, like, Northern Virginia or DC. And so I found you know, I Tim, you're saying that they're just getting their stride back.
I mean, it it was phenomenal to be able to attend last year.
Yeah. All those memories are starting to rush back now because because someone was like, hey. Tim. You need to meet Himalaya. Himalaya's in Hampton.

(01:25):
And I was like, oh, reactors in Hampton. How can we, you know, whatever? And then you're and I was like, hey. We'll get you plugged in. And then there was that event at the rooftop, and I was like, hey.
And then you and Rachel were able to to to attend that event, and then you two were off to the races just, meeting so many founders.
And, Tim, we actually had that meeting where I think Aurelia had set up, an entire ecosystem. I think they also have quarterly events or maybe it's, like, virtual events where, like, all the accelerators or, you know, programs
The Virginia Accelerator Network.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. That was I mean and they were all in the room together, so the power of collaboration that was in that room, that day was incredible.
Where did you get your I guess, how did you get the crazy idea of, like, I am gonna I'm gonna establish a fund? Yeah. I mean, like, I I would that that's a that's kind of a crazy thing to do, but you actually did it. So, like, I I really would love to know that journey.
Yeah. Well, one thing that I will say that is prevalent about my journey is that I don't tend to plan every detail out. And oftentimes after, I'm like, this is much harder than, you know, I expected. And I if I'd known what I'd know now, probably would not have recommended it, you know, about most things. You know?
But Yeah. Well, that's how I felt about my MBA. I was like, if I knew business school was gonna be this difficult, I wouldn't even have tried it. But since I'm already halfway through semester one, I have no choice but just to keep on going through.
That's that's usually how I do things is, it's like both a gift and a curse because I do feel like when I'm doing stuff, I'm I'm just, like, learning as I'm doing it. So I'm probably doing things the hardest way possible, but, then I end up doing a bunch of stuff because I'm willing to try without having sometimes any, but definitely most of the pieces together. So I think the venture fund was very much the same. I mean, you know, I did get my MBA, and so then I got that business degree. I, you know, I actually when I was going through the MBA program, I was like, I don't actually know if this fits me.
You know? Like, I'm a social worker. I'm an activist. Like, what am I doing here in business school? And it was only when I learned about entrepreneurship that those two kind of things clicked where I was like, oh, I can be an activist within business to be able to help, you know, more people utilize entrepreneurship in a formalized way, to be able to, like, create their own economic mobility.
And so I think that's, like, the thing I got out of the MBA. And then one of the things that I, like, was exposed to was there was a fund associated with the program that I was able to be a part of. And, you know, that was my first foray into venture capital. You know, someone actually the reason I got into it was because I was still doing a different business, and the entire, like, MBA program and cohort was, like, involved in it. And they were like, oh, you should get venture capital money for it.
And I was like, I don't even know what that is. Is that, like, a special kind of loan? And they were like, oh, there's a fund. You should go talk to them. You know, they're associated with the university.
So I went, and I actually didn't ask them for money because I didn't know how I was gonna be judged because I didn't like, what is the grading rule? Right? And so I was like I I just went to them, and I was like, I you know, like, I don't know much about venture capital, but could you let me, like, sit in on when you evaluate a company so that I could understand how that works? And, you know, eventually, they you know, it took a lot of, like, trust and stuff. But, eventually, they were like, sure.
Why don't you, sit in? And, also, we're gonna send you out to, like, go bring some companies into us. And I remember going there, and I actually went to Pasadena, because I went in I had my MBA in I got my MBA in Oregon. So I was down in Pasadena, California at my first angel meeting, and I was mistaken as the the waiter, you know, a couple times because I definitely was looking very different than the majority of people in there. And then I'm sitting at the table, like, feeling all this impostor syndrome and a a candidate pitches.
I remembered in my head, you know, the people at the fund were like, do not get enamored. You know, we have a ninety five percent failure rate in the start up world. Like, don't, like you know, don't embarrass us. Stay very cool and calm. And so I did.
And I was like, okay. I'm gonna just be act very cool even though I was, like, kind of excited about this deal. And I turned to the person next to me, and I was like, oh, yeah. What do you think? You know?
Like, no. I I I know it has, a a large failure rate, but, like, what do you think? And the guy turned to me and he said, yeah. You know, like, I'm okay with it, but I think I might put $25,000 in. And I thought that I I think that, like, blew my mind because I had come from the humanitarian world where I had spent the last, like, nine months battling against, like, the school and the city and, like, all these budgets to get $6,000 to split out across 43 students that I had.
And for this person, when I'm hearing that there's such a high failure rate and it's so high risk to have the discretionary income to be able to put in 25,000, it just made me feel like, for me, that, like, put it together where I was like, there's so much opportunity here if we can connect them to different resources and to different people. And so I think that's where the idea was born from. There's, you know, a lot longer of a journey into, like, going from that to actually launching the fund, you know, including me working at six different funds, then being a fund manager of, like, a small economic development fund, then, you know, kinda putting the pieces together, but that was, like, the initial idea.
This is I didn't even know Tim when I'm worth when I'm with what I'm about to tell you. But, like, this reminds me of hatch days, so you didn't know me then Himalaya. So I was putting on these, events kind of like a startup weekend called Start Norfolk and a bunch of other, like, industry focus, like, meetups. And at Sar Norfolk, it was, build a company in a weekend. Hundred I think, like, a 80 people showed up, like, 40 ideas, and I was like, wow.
This is really interesting. But these people have three days. What would happen if we could work with these companies, give them a little bit more money? What could happen? Accelerators really weren't a thing yet.
This is, 2011. And so, like, that kinda started percolating in my brain, and I was like, cool. Like, maybe I can raise some money, give it to these people. Trust me. That was not the right guy for the job, but I could like, I I think people were, like, excited.

(01:46):
Right? And so they're like, oh, like, you know, there's this guy, you know, young guy at the time really getting behind this, kind of making the word startup cool in our area. And so we raised a little bit of money. We did three funds, like, $10.15, $20,000 checks, not not a, not a ton. Took a little bit of stake in each company.
But, like, just hearing your story about, like, you not maybe not impostor syndrome, but just like, yeah, you just gotta figure it out. You know? Because Yeah. You could know everything. You just well, I I like I remember, like, I was getting meetings with people that were very wealthy.
Like, the top guys and gals in there. And it was like I just remember really early on saying something like, well, I'm gonna lose your money. And they're like, we know. But, like, here's $10, here's $20, whatever. And so, like, kinda like what you just said, like, there is something crazy to me about that.
It's just like, okay. You know you're gonna lose this money. And in some cases, they did. That really hurt my heart. Right?
I remember, like, one of the times I had to, like, tell everyone, like, yo. We're closing. This isn't working. Like, here I am crying, telling them, writing the email, letting them know this. And they're just like, cool.
We appreciate what you did.
And I
was like, okay.
Like, I just lost you guys a ton of money.
One of the things It's interesting, though. Right? Because, you know, I mean, it's a power law thing. And so one of the 99 other, checks that they wrote, you know, they may have hit the power you know, they may establish that power law, and they're like, alright. I returned my my individual fund personally, so I'm good.
You
know, one of the things that you actually mentioned that I think is, like, really important to highlight is, like and I was thinking about that because I forgot about it, actually, is within the journey, sometimes you, like, do the thing you intend. So, you know, like, yes, this fund was successful in, like, launching and being a fund. I actually have, like, one, like, formal, two, like, when you count informal, like, false starts. Right? Like, I tried to raise a fund before when I wasn't, like, as ready, right, as equipped, and it didn't work.
Right? Like, I tried to do it with a few people, talked with a lot of people, and they were like, why would we give you money? You're you just, like, got an MBA. You have no experience in this. And I was like, yeah.
But, like, you know, here's the idea. And they're like, you like, this I remember a professor of mine who ended up being, like, now one of the first checks in. He's on the board. He was like, yeah. But, like, what would make entrepreneurs want to come to you?
It can't just be money. It has to have, like, some level of expertise, some value you can provide them beyond the capital. And so, anyway, he set me down a path of, like, you you gotta go work somewhere. You gotta go learn more things. You have to build some, like, you know, tool set that you can bring to the entrepreneur.
To me, I think it's, like, momentum. Like, there was there was this momentum that had never happened before. Like, people talked about business in the era, but I don't think there was ever, like, this grassroots real, like, style of, like, young young individuals getting behind it. It was always just, like, you know, the old white guys that are like, oh, you know, we need to do this. And it's like, okay.
Now here's this young buck. It's, like, '25, '20 '6. It's got a little bit of momentum. Right? He's in the paper every because when people read the paper, like, he's in the paper every week with something new, and people are getting behind it.
And so, like, there there there there was this momentum there, and it was it was exciting. And, you know, I like to think that a couple years, we made Granby kind of a a fun Granby Street a fun place. Must say that's not now, but, like, there was a nice little swing where Granby and Main Street hit, and I miss those days sometimes. Very chaotic. But, yeah, it's you know, you just you gotta reflect sometimes, look back and be like, oh, yeah.
I I guess I guess I did do a decent job at Yeah. Getting people excited about this. So it's exciting to hear similar routes for you. I'm excited to see you continue the success. This isn't the end of the conversation, by the way.
I don't know why I might ask
No. But it's one of those things that it's it's really interesting in terms of, like that I really appreciate about you, Emileia. It's just like, you know, like, when you were the new one sitting at the table, you know, you are you just have that welcoming spirit to you that and maybe you maybe you pass it on because of how you felt when you first sat at the table, and you're surrounded by people who were writing checks of numbers that we never even could imagine because I know I experienced the same thing. I was just like, I'm at you know, at the time, I'm in a Zoom meeting, and everyone goes around, and they talk about the check size they typically write. And I'm just, like, giggling because I'm like, I could oh, yeah.

(02:07):
My check size is two hundred and fifty to five hundred k. So, yeah, we can go up to a million or two. You know? I'm like, why why am I here again? You know?
But it's just like you just gotta embrace it, I guess, and then welcome the the next people. And I'm still miles so far away from even coming close to even thinking about checks of that size. But, like, is that something that you just got numb to that you're or you just you just, hey. I'm gonna play the part. You know?
How or you does it still pinch yourself moment?
I think that it depends on what room I'm in. Right? I think that as you just like with any level of entrepreneurship, Zach, you talked about, like, how you're like, oh, nostalgia about, like, some of the other days, but, like, it was chaotic, but it was good. I mean, every every level has its own chaos, but also every level opens the door to more levels. And so I think there's always a room that I'm gonna feel like an impostor in.
But I will say after you build, number one for me, like, a core, like, set of skills where you can feel confident in that, But then number two, I think people overlook this. A core set of people that you can be real with that, like, you know, a lot of times in entrepreneurship and especially in venture capital, there's, like, the superficial, like, highs, lows, right, where, like, people wanna work with you when you're like Zach and, like, on the, you know, cover of a magazine or a newspaper. But, like, there's, like, a superficiality to, like, wanting to work with who has the most momentum at the time. I think after a while, you start to build, like, you know, three, four, five people who are colleagues, who you really know that you can trust, who will be with you. I think when you have both of those, you have people you can trust and you have skills you can trust in yourself, that's when you can start, I think, changing the narrative.
So now in a lot of places that I go, I'm controlling the narrative. Right? Like, where I am setting the tone for the conversation, I'm setting the agenda for what we're gonna talk about, how we're gonna talk about it, who else is gonna be in the room. So I think that I've shifted a lot of that where a lot of times, like you mentioned, when I'm in rooms now, I'm the one that's bringing people in. And so then it feels less of, like, that impostor syndrome because I'm setting the table.
But, you know, there that's you're never gonna have that, you know, a % of the time. There's always gonna be rooms where you're the minority in it.
Tim, you probably have had this too, but I remember, like, it was fixed specifically for, like, hatch two and three, I think, which would have been 2013 time frame. Some of the investors that we had were actually, like, coaching me up and, like, mentoring me. Like, here's how to get this person on here. And so we would, like, literally pitch practice going through this. And so, like, I remember, like, Randy Webb, formerly of Signature.
I think they got acquired or something. I don't remember what it is. Tim, you might have you might remember him.
I can't remember the new name. But yeah.
So he's I was like, well, I wanna get W as an investor, W Nguyen, and, he's one of the guys behind the Weather Channel and, stuff at Dominion Landmark and all that stuff. And, he's like, well, let's get the meeting, let's practice. And so I remember I asked w for $250,000, and he literally laughs in my face. But then literal he's like, I'm not gonna write you that check. But we had the conversation and kept talking.
And a couple minutes later, he, he did write me a check significantly smaller, but I still appreciate. But it's interesting that one of the, you know, the other investors was like, let let's let's walk through this. How like, these are this type of things that he's going to ask you. And I just look back, you know, reflect and say, you know, that's pretty cool that someone would have that kind of trust and faith in me that not only was he giving me money, but helping me get other people's money too is, was a pretty cool thing. And that relationship thing is, I think people take that for granted.
Right? It's like, oh, relationships are easy. It's like, no. No. No.
No. No. No. No. Let's go deep on these relationships and and get strong with it.
I think it's really easy for founders to just lump all investors or sources of capital in the same group of people. Like, oh, they just don't understand. They don't get it. But, you know, what I'm gonna do is totally totally different what everyone else is doing.
Or just look at it as a check and not, like, a deep what else could they help with? Right? That could be far more valuable.
Yeah. Yeah. But I would agree to your point, Tim. Like, there are so many different types of funders that are gonna have different motivations. Their check sizes are different, but their motivations, I think, are really different.
And it's so important and critical to know what type of, money you should be getting. Like, to your point where I think I hear this often is, like, when you get a note, it's like, oh, well, they just don't understand me. They just don't understand my product. One of, like, the biggest things I do, like and now I'm talking to accelerators is explaining that, like, ten year horizon of the life cycle of a fund, particularly if you're getting like, this is the difference. Right?
Like, if you get money from an angel, that's their own personal money. They can hold on to those assets indefinitely, theoretically. They don't want to, but they could. But in a venture fund, they legally can't. Right?
Like, we're only setting up closed end vehicles. Now there's, like, other, know, things with, like, you know, evergreen funds, but, like, most funds are closed end structures. And so it's gonna have a definitive start and a definitive end time. And at that time, if we haven't recouped money back, which, you know, if you're doing equity only, the only way to do it is if you change ownership of the company and we get a portion of that sale, then we just have to write it down. Even if you're making, you know, 5,000,000, 10 million, 20 million in revenue, that's awesome for you.
But I I have to go back to my investors and say, like, yeah. We have to write down this investment, you know, and we have to zero it out, or I have to sell the shares on a secondary market to get pennies. And so I think that, like, foundational knowledge about how funds work is not public knowledge, and I think creates a lot of mismatch and then mistrust between founders and funders.

(02:28):
I agree. And and even, like, before then, even getting to that stage, it's it's just like we talk about this on the show very often. But it's just like the time to need a banker or the time to need an investor is months and months before the time that you actually actually need it. And people just have this misconception like, oh, an angel is gonna fall out of the sky. They're gonna rain this money down on me, they're gonna come and rescue me.
It's like, it's not an angel because they're rescuing you per se. You have established these relationships months in advance. And so, like, your first meeting when you talk to an angel and you would tell them that you have one month of runway or some a lot of times even less than that, it's like, that is not the relationship. That is that's not how things start. That's not how things work.
You have to have plan that out six months before you even have that first meeting to know who these people are and what types of checks that they're willing to write. Yeah. And that super early education that has to go on from the founder level. And and I get it. And, you know, so what conversations do you have with early stage founders when it's just like, hey.
Where do you think this is gonna go? What is the direction that you wanna take this? You know? How do you guide them?
A lot of what I do initially is to be able to explain the differences, right, where we talk about, like, one, what does your success metrics look like. Right? Because a lot of times people are building something because they think that it doesn't exist in the market. They want to be able to do something super innovative, but then they also want like, a lot of people are like, this is my passion. Right?
Like, this is something I wanna do, like, into the foreseeable future. And and and, you know, especially in the early stages of development, you're just trying to get it right. And so you're still being iterative. You're still trying to figure out, like, what works. A lot of founders that I meet are still throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks, which is awesome.
Right? And it's great. You're using customer feedback to determine. That's great. And, also, it might not be the time for you to get venture capital money where as soon as you get it, there's a time clock on it between then and when you need to exit.
And so we have a lot of conversations around, like, where are you actually at in terms of your stage? What does your growth trajectory look like based on where you're at right now? And three, where do you wanna go? Because oftentimes, I find that there's a mismatch there between what the end goal looks like and what, you know, like, what we need as a venture fund. And that doesn't mean that there's not other, you know, forms of money and funding that won't be a good fit, but I think that's, like, fundamentally, the the first thing that I do is, like, also, what do you need the money for?
So I have this, you know, like, deck that I use that goes through all the different types of capital construction points. So, like, when you think about ideation, when you think about product build product development, when you think about launching them into market, All of those different points, scaling, have, yes, different capital constrictions, but they also necessitate different types of capital. So I think matching the right capital with the right stage and what your long term goals are, a lot of people want, like, something that more so resembles an acquihire rather than an actual, like, entire brand acquisition. They wanna keep running it. And so, anyway, that's those are a lot of the things we talk about.
It is just stunning. I I an infinite number. I mean, I don't even know if you can quantify, but it's an infinite number of things that can go wrong within a startup. And and so the boy, the odds are so stacked against you. Every layer is so challenging.
Why does that even props for those who all the crazy people out there that that think that they're gonna be the ones that do it. But, boy, it really is like capturing lightning in a bottle when when you do get it right.
Can can you do that? Can you capture lightning in a bottle? Is that a thing? Isn't that what they do? Wasn't there a movie like Sweet Home Alabama where they're like, they actually do catch that.
They go to the sand and oh, I love.
I think
I think
I think
oh, you know what? I'm gonna look that up later. Okay. So something that I think you guys have both kind of loosely mentioned, but it's like, not every business is investable. And I think founders need to look at that and be like, that's this is not a personal thing.
They're not looking at me like, oh, my business is this. Like, you you don't have that kind of multiplier that these type of business are looking at. You might be investable. You might not even be in or or you might not you might be bankable. Right?
But it's like, that's and I think people get really, really, like, emotional about that. They're like, ugh. I have no, like, opportunity for me because, you know, people don't wanna invest in my business. It's like, this isn't about you. Like, there is this, like, portfolio of styles that people want.
You don't fit into that. That's nothing against you. That's just like, it's it's like dating. You know, you gotta figure out who you like, and then you go into it. And so it's like I know Tim deals with this a lot, and Himalay, you probably do too, but it's like people are like, well, why?
And it's just like, it it doesn't fit. Like, sorry. Like, you have a mom and pop retail shop. There's nothing the matter with that. But it's not something that is going to see the multiplier in the way that I think maybe they see it.

(02:49):
And they're just know, you have a cap on your business. That's okay. But it's not it's not something that's gonna return something to you, you know, 2,200, three million x.
And I think that the other thing that is it's totally okay is, like, if you can get if you can establish and you have a 203 hundred thousand dollar a year lifestyle business, That's awesome. Yeah. Congratulations to you. You know? Maybe you don't need capital.
You know? So two kind of points on that. One, there's, Zach, like, that note of knowing how, investors are potentially going to, evaluate your company, there's a video that you all can put out. We we put together a series of free educational videos for founders. One of them talks about the four pillars, and that's just like a quick overview of how you're gonna be evaluated in a dilutive funding way.
And so it talks about defensibility, scalability, exitability, team, and kinda goes through each of those pillars. So that way when you're thinking about, like, am I a fit? Am I a fit for even dilutive capital? Let's not even talk about open ended versus closed ended vehicles of funding. Let's first see if this is even a fit for what investors will want when it comes to, like, the ROI, when it comes to that multiple so that I will say that that is one resource that is available, that is free, that, you know, people have found helpful.
So that way you can even determine if this is what you want to do, if you want dilutive capital. To Tim's point, I think that the majority of companies actually don't need or shouldn't get venture capital money. It actually will change your growth trajectory. It'll change you what your success factors look like, and that might not meet what you want. If you want a 203 hundred thousand dollar business annually, that's phenomenal for you and your family.
And if you get investor money and they're expecting you to sell when that's not actually what you wanna do because you'd have to grow a lot bigger in order to be attractive as a candidate for acquisition, then, like, that's not what you want. A lot of people talk about generational wealth building, sure, from venture capital. But there's so many ways to build generational wealth, and a lot of that can be business ownership that then is passed down from generation to generation. It can be building a larger community base, and involving many other stakeholders in your community that then creates an asset that then is passed down. So I I will say, like, that is, like, the another thing that I think is, like, not like, you don't get on the front page of Forbes having a 203 hundred thousand dollar business that is has that recurring revenue, but that is a really great lifestyle for you and your family.
The other thing that I just wanted to quickly mention, and I I know that, Tim, you know this. I I tend to nerd out when it comes to these things, but this is something that we've been exploring as well, particularly on the nonprofit that I've been running and then figuring out how to integrate that into the venture fund in, a fund too is what does integrated capital look like? So, I'm in a fellowship called JEI. It's a Just Economy Institute, and we've been talking a lot about how venture capital is like this, like, proverbial glass slipper, where, like, you're going around, Zach, to your point, people get really upset when they don't fit the glass slipper, but the glass slipper already comes predetermined with specific criteria of what we need to have in order to meet that. And instead, we've been thinking about what does an integrated capital stack look like where we could meet founders in a different capacity and be able to think about, like, okay.
You as an individual and as a company could use a mix of debt and grants and, you know, crowdfunding and equity. And how do we help you build that model so that way we can meet founders where they're at. Maybe it has no equity and it just has debt. Right? Or, like, maybe it doesn't have debt and it has grants because it's super early on.
So we're we're trying to figure out what that looks like, and there's so many amazing organizations like Boston Impact Initiative that we're taking a lot of cues from, of how to build an integrated capital stack so that we can bring it back to Hampton Roads.
I really, I dig the the glass slipper analogy because you're right. What every investor's thesis is their they have their own individual glass sip or slipper, and it's just like, you just don't have the right foot to fit into that slipper. And, it doesn't mean that your foot is wrong, but it just doesn't fit into that particular slipper.
Shaq has really big feet. You know? That's that's what I think about.
Exactly. And he had to find one glass slipper or, like, to instead of finding a glass slipper, he had to go and make his own shoes. Right? And so
at Walmart and become like, that dude's really smart, by the way. Right. Just your thoughts on, like, women and minority owned businesses and all of, like, the data that says they aren't funded the same way? Is it is it just because the style of businesses that a lot of these are not venture business? So maybe there's, context is missing.
Is it that they're the same kind of businesses? Because I I feel like a lot of times headlines are very skewed without, like, the true real story behind something. And so just, like, are your general thoughts on on on statements like women and minority, owned businesses are not in invested in the same way? Just thoughts on stuff like that.
Yeah. And I will say again, this is a perspective of one. Right? And so take what I'm saying as, an n of one and not, as a a large generalization. I know only my experience as well as, like, the things that I've been able to read and see.
But in general, I think it comes down to two factors. One, certainly, I think that people start businesses with what they know, with what problem they are seeing, and then they try and create a solution around that. A lot of times, you know, minorities or women are, you know, setting up businesses that are gonna be more product based, that are gonna be more lifestyle based. So that certainly is one. However, I think you can find anyone doing anything.
Right? And so there are many minorities and women who are in, like, pure tech or, like, you know, med devices or other, you know, aspects. I think the other component, you know, comes kinda full circle back to our beginning point is people actually, like, will give you money if they trust you. And I think sometimes we place such a heavy emphasis on, like, how good or bad the idea is. But most funders, if you ask them when they're investing super early stage, are investing in the founder and therefore are trying to understand, like, how much they trust the founder.
And so I think that's where minorities and women kind of, like, are at a disadvantage in that way because, they don't necessarily have, like, a lifetime history, of family friendship with people who have discretionary income that would then support that. Right? And so I think that and I don't think that's just for minorities and women. I actually think that there's a huge divide in the working class, between the people who are working class and the people who are not. Right?
And I think that across the board in rural communities, there is so much excellence. There's so much innovation. You know, I actually worked when I was living in Oregon, at a program called Invent Oregon, and it, like, highlights all of this innovation, invention based innovation in Oregon, mostly coming from rural areas. And there's, like, absolute brilliance there, and the same thing happens where they don't intrinsically know people who are their family friends or people who, like, really, really trust them who also have the discretionary income. And so then they lack that, like, initial infusion of capital, which then has a snowballing effect, right, where people are like, oh, well, has anyone else invested in you as a marker of credibility to then be like, I'll invest in you.
Right? And so I think a lot of that comes from the foundational networks not being there. I think there's a lot of people who are trying to change that. Right? A lot of people who are trying to decentralize funding structures.
So I will say that. The other component to that is that even though when we look like, the headlines are minorities and women don't get funded. That's specifically in venture capital. That has nothing to do with the number of businesses that minority individuals, you know, women, people from rural areas, the number of businesses that they're setting up or the number of businesses that they're setting up that are sustainable, that are successful, that are profitable, that are doing well. Like, we always kind of hear it, like, you know, I I feel like all media likes to sensationalize stuff and dramatize stuff, so they focus on one aspect that then makes you feel like, oh, that's you know, it's like all doom and gloom.

(03:10):
It's in one aspect. And, yes, there's a very clear problem there. But, also, venture capital doesn't determine the success of entrepreneurship as a whole. You can still be really, really fundamentally successful as a business owner without ever getting venture capital. There's many other types of capital, and there's, like, innovation, right, that can be created and iterated upon that can create a successful business.
And we see that all the time across minorities, women, and rural communities.
I'm curious. Couple part question. How did you land in Hampton Roads? And based on all the things that you've learned throughout your through Oregon and growing up in New York, What what are your plans, and what do you hope to bring to Virginia as you continue to push ahead?
Yeah. Absolutely. So how we got to Virginia? So, my wife and I moved from, the Northeast to Oregon, got her MBA. She got her JD as well.
And then we moved to Minnesota, when she got a job there. And then we, wanted to be actually closer to our families who are on the East Coast. The reason why we came to Virginia was actually because my wife's first teaching job was in Hyattsville, Maryland. And so we have a lot of family and a lot of community in the DMV area. One of the things that I feel like is similar between a lot of the places we've lived and Hampton Roads in particular, which is how we ended up here, is that it's a place that is, like, a burgeoning ecosystem, and I think that's what really excites us.
You know, a lot of people want to be a big fish in a small pond and be able to, you know, like, dominate a particular market. But I think for us, we love learning. We love creating. We love building. And we find that the greatest innovation comes from places that aren't necessarily, like, the the places that people are referencing, like New York and Texas and DC.
But, you know, like, for us, we love community based entrepreneurship, and we love innovation and invention based entrepreneurship. And so we find that here. And so that was one of the things that we were looking for. And I, for one, have, like, absolutely loved living in Hampton Roads. We've lived in Northern Virginia First and then moved down here.
And I think for, like, the future and just thinking through that, one of the the biggest things that I kinda mentioned is, like, this divide that's within the working class. I think that I fundamentally believe that entrepreneurship can be used as a pathway for economic development and that it can be used by individuals and communities to change their own economic participation. I don't think that has to do with venture capital. Right? Like, it doesn't have to it it can, but it doesn't have to.
Right? Like, I'm more in pursuit of the excellence of entrepreneurship. And so I think, for me, what my passion is and what I hope to bring is this notion that, like, the working class, you know, across the board, whether that's, like, women, minorities, people from rural economies can utilize entrepreneurship. Like, we, a people, as a mass, hold the keys to our own liberation, whether that's social, political, or economical. Like, we can create the tools and realities we wanna see.
And so my vehicle of doing that is through entrepreneurship. And so that's what I wanna promote is, the ability, and that's why I've been looking into the integrated capital stack is, like, how can we support more of the masses and meet them where they're at and be able to create many more individuals that are independently liberated when it comes to their own economic standing. And so, I think that there's so many similarities, you know, between Hampton Roads and the community of Oregon or the community of Minnesota or the community of The Bronx. I think that we create a lot of divides between, you know, ourselves when it comes to, like, certain groups, but the plight of the working class, the realities of the working class are actually, like, very similar, and my goal is to be able to create unification among the working class and to be able to create upward mobility through entrepreneurship. And so that's what I plan to bring is more education, more resources, and then, like, a tailored ability to help more founders achieve their goals and especially, like, achieve the goals for their family, their community, and, like, relocalize a lot of the services and solutions we have.
Wait. So digging into that just a a little bit deeper in terms of, like, is there a particular event or something that you're thinking about doing here in the in the not too distant future?
You guys act like you guys act like I don't know what you guys are talking about, but you guys are, like, laughing and, like, teasing each other. Like, something's going on here. Like, this is, like, this is insider information. You guys don't even let me know. Like, I thought I was a cohost.
Tim, like, yeah. Like, this is ridiculous.
I'm just I'm just going off the sheet, Zach. This is this
the sheet, but I guess I didn't scroll
my two. Number number two. We've been talking for fifty two minutes. We're only on number two.
That she likes to garden? I
know about upcoming wealth week.
Indeed. I one on the gardening. I do like to garden. The effectiveness of that is still to be determined, because most of the things end up dead, but the act of gardening is is lovely. So maybe one
If you you could get there's this thing. If you can I think it's, a hundred bucks, maybe 200? It's called AeroGarden. Have you have you heard of these things?
Uh-huh.

(03:31):
It's high hydrogardening. I can't remember what it is, but, like, they're these little pods. And my wife got it for me for Christmas last year. Badass. It also can be used as a nightlight if you're afraid of the dark.
But it it produces some pretty good plants, and then you can take them from there, move them outside. I I'm a junior gardener, but I love that thing.
What is that? What is it called again?
I believe it's called AeroGarden, a e r o garden.
Okay. I'll look into it because 0% have survived, but we're still I think this is entrepreneurship. Right? Like, the first iterations or the first ten iterations are not power law.
Oh, this thing is, like, a %. Like, as long as you keep it with water in it, like, it's golden. It's great. Like, you can't screw it up.
Say a % until I've tested it because
If this idiot can get
it to work.
We can I'll I will report back. However, to Tim's point, the other thing that we are actually collaboratively creating with other organizations, including Reactor and including Start Peninsula, right, of of, like, these institutions that are pillars in the community is, the Hampton Wealth Week. And so that's something we're we're creating where it'll essentially bring all types of different capital providers to the table to be able to talk about, ways that you can think about building your own generational wealth, think about ways that you can, sustain that, think about ways that you can have that be community centered, relocalizing a lot of our solutions. And so, that's something that we're building. If you're interested, number one, in being a partner on that, if you're a community organization, I think I'm a very much a bottoms up approach to change type of person, and so we very much love the grassroots efforts.
And so if you are an organization that, exist in the Hampton Roads area that wants to be a part of that, we'd love to have you. If you are interested in knowledge about decentralized finance, we'd love for you to participate. If you are, an organization, you know, like, when we think about corporations or banks or other, people that want to be able to support, local economic development efforts, we'd love to hear from you as well. So but this is very much not just, something I'm doing, but something we as a community are doing. That's how I aim to move, you know, kinda moving forward is how do we do things together.
I dig it. I look forward to it, and I like it when other people bring successful things that have happened to our area and force us to think about things in a different way.
Excellent.
Alright. So let's say it's, this week that's coming up that you guys already knew about because, apparently, Tim can read better than me. And you got a bunch of people in town, and they're like, where can I go get something to eat? What is the number one spot that you're gonna tell them to go to?
Oh my gosh. Okay. Wow. Well, this was an unexpected question. Okay.
So it depends, I guess, on what type of food you're looking for. And you know what? This might be a little bit of a hot take, but I live by this place called Capri Pizza. Tim, Zach, do you know of it? But, they I actually have gone to many, many different pizza places, and I have to say it's the best one I've been at Really?
In Hampton Roads. Capri Pizza. Yeah. It's it's so good.
Is it in Hampton?
It's in Hampton. It's right by the Fox Hill area. Right Peter that's there. There's, a, you know, a whole plaza. Yeah.
It's so incredibly good. I don't know what is going on inside that store, but it's it's been so good. I really, really enjoyed it. So I know that's like on
my list.

(03:52):
You know? But I don't know if you all have different takes on what is the best pizza, but I haven't tasted a better pizza in the Hampton Roads area.
Oh, New York is known for some good pizza.
I know. I know. New York is we we really, like, miss a lot of times, like, the dollar pizza we can get in The Bronx. Also, among New Yorkers, there's, of course, like, a rivalry and a fight of where the best pizza is. I have to claim that it is from The Bronx, and not Manhattan where most people are getting their pizza.
The Bronx has exceptional pizza. And so for me to be like, Capri pizza is really good, it's coming from a New Yorker.
Okay. So in the same vein, like, New York is known for, like, the pizza New York style pizza like that. Is there something is there a food, a drink, or something of of the region here?
With that, you know, the closest thing we've got, we have the orange crush that I will I mean, I am willing to fall on my sword about the orange crush because del Delaware cannot claim that. I mean, that is it's
not Delaware. It's Maryland. Ocean City.
It doesn't even matter. It just you know, whatever other state wants to try to claim it, I think we we have to claim the orange crush. But, no, that's the thing. They are. Like, we're trying to establish an identity for Hampton Roads, and we just have to figure out what that is.
And and the white sauce at a my at a Mexican restaurant, pick your favorite. That is not that is not this is an accoutrement to the chips and salsa. You can't
A what?
They'll
make me spell that. My.
You know what? I will say, this is, like, one of the exciting pitches, right, that we heard yesterday. I got a chance to be on Star Peninsula's, MicroPitches yesterday. And, I got to hear a lot of bit different pitches, but one of the pitches was about, like, what is the identity of Hampton Roads, and how do we use more art and culture to be able to build that identity. I think that's central for economic development is to have
Yeah.
That we stand for.
Everybody wants to do their own thing. It's like instead of, like, everyone like that you be the leader, and we're all gonna push you up, and then we'll all rise up together. Yeah. We have we we're we're trying to figure out what that one thing is. And, yeah, one thing that I was listen I was watching Pulp Fiction the other night, and I and and they it was the opening scene in the restaurant, and they talked about the Denver
Don't remember the movie. I've never seen it, Tim. Come on.
Well, they talk about the Denver omelet. I'm like, how did Denver get an omelet named after themselves? You know? Like, man, somebody had to that's pretty impressive. If they can do it with an omelet, then we can be we can do it in our region.
So you think we gotta put the name in it, like the buffalo wings?
Well, I just I mean, there's
Denver Omelet. What makes the Denver Omelet special?

(04:13):
To put the name in it, right, to put, like, the Hampton Road something.
But then people would bitch about, well, that was just for this city, so I can't
But we need to we need to establish an identity. Somehow, it just we we all get get behind because this professional sports team is not gonna be anytime soon. Yeah. Food, drink, that's gonna be the closer thing.
You know, I will say that actually relates right back to entrepreneurship because I think in the beginning, especially when you're trying to figure out what works, we can, like, spread ourselves so thin and be everything for everyone. But the way that you really, like, break through the noise and are able to, like, you know, kind of be known for something is to be, like, standing in something. Right? Like, what is the identity? Like, what do you stand for?
Who do you support? Why do you support that? Like, regardless of, like, if that appeals to the masses, that'll appeal to somebody. Right? And, like, being able to, like, stand 10 toes down in what your identity is, like, helps not just, like, entrepreneurs, but, like, from a city perspective too.
It's all related.
Think that's a great way to end it. Himalaya, we appreciate it. It was a wonderful show. Looking forward to seeing you, you know, in not a random elevator assembly sometime soon, I guess, maybe at the week that you and Tim have been talking about that I should have read the thing. But appreciate your time.
This was lovely, and excited to to see this continue on.
Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate being on the show and just being around moguls of this particular Hampton Roads. You know? Like, you two are the pillars, you know, and many, many, have hosted many different things. I actually really appreciated getting to know more things that you all have been involved in, but this is what it takes.
Right? Like, we can't we can't become, you know, a DC, a New York, a Texas without all of these things kind of coming together. And so I'm really excited for the innovation and, like, the road map that you all have built, And so really excited to build with you. So thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate you both.
And thank you, and thank you for your support. Of course.