The Music Industry Mindset That Builds Better Businesses

Jarrett Beeler, Sway Creative Labs, shares his journey from the music industry to advertising, highlighting lessons applicable to business success. The discussion explores Norfolk's startup incentives and local business climate, emphasizing fostering creativity and talent. Jarrett delves into the economics of streaming, changing revenue models, and educating clients on music industry dynamics. Topics include personal growth, leadership, managing responsibilities, and acquiring advertising clients. Ethical considerations, AI's impact on advertising, and talent recruitment are examined, alongside overcoming regional skepticism.

 

(0:00) Strategies for early-stage business success and catching up

(3:02) Norfolk's startup incentives and local business climate

(4:08) Jarrett Beeler's journey from music to advertising

(8:28) Lessons from the music industry for businesses

(15:08) The economics of streaming and changing revenue models

(21:00) Educating clients on music industry dynamics

(24:33) Fostering creativity and talent in Norfolk

(30:35) Personal growth and leadership in business

(36:40) Managing energy and responsibilities

(37:52) Acquiring and working with advertising clients

(39:57) Ethical considerations in advertising and spec work

(46:04) AI's impact on advertising and campaign creation

(51:10) Talent recruitment and retention strategies

(53:09) Overcoming regional skepticism in agency work

(57:19) Client service as a cornerstone of agency success

(58:39) Celebrating Norfolk's culinary diversity and restaurant scene

(1:02:04) Closing thoughts and looking ahead

 

Key Takeaways:

 

- Perseverance and adaptability in the early stages of business development are crucial for long-term success.

 

- Leveraging diverse skill sets and fostering collaboration can drive community and business growth.

 

- Utilizing AI tools can significantly enhance productivity and streamline creative processes in the advertising industry.

 

Innovate Hampton Roads is on a mission to foster the growth of Hampton Roads' innovation and technology ecosystem by educating entrepreneurs and business leaders, providing access to essential resources, and building connections that drive synergistic partnerships. We are committed to creating a supportive environment that empowers entrepreneurs, strengthens the regional economy, and fuels long-term prosperity. By growing, guiding, and connecting key players in the ecosystem—including investors, industry leaders, universities, corporate partners, and community organizations—we aim to build a more innovative and inclusive economy. It’s time to unify our efforts, amplify our collective voice, and streamline

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
We do just as much, I think, winning that kind of, you know, punching above our weight kind of business by figuring out how to how to fight the early rounds and, you know, crappy gyms, you know, and and working your way through.

(00:01):
You are alive.
Hey. Hey.
How's it going?
Good. Good to see
you. Likewise.
I've seen a lot of you lately. Looking forward to seeing a lot more.
I'm excited about, we have a lunch tomorrow. We get to try one of these pizza places that
That is right.
High Street Pizza apparently is good.
Highly recommended.
No pun intended. What'd you say?
No pun intended. Highly recommended high street pizza.
Terrible. Together. I was waiting for, like, a pie joke in there.
No. But I am looking forward to it. Pizza's one of those things, man. I could eat that almost every day and never get tired of it.
Yep. Yep. This is going to be, like, a time machine episode, I feel like. Haven't spoken to this individual until fifteen minutes ago and probably, I don't know, eight years. Kinda grew up on Granby Street together, if you will.
I don't remember what time they what time they moved in.
I look forward to learning diving in more about the the pedigree of businesses out of their
What was my old address? 111 Gramby? That's gotta be, like, 105 Gramby. No. It'd be uneven.
It's, like, 104 Gramby, 1 0 6 Gramby. Something 110 Gramby. I don't know. Like, it's yeah. That space, which is now a winery or a wine shop, not exactly what I would think would be in that space, but you've been in that space before.
Correct? Yeah. Yeah. So, of course, we're talking about the man behind this way, Jericho. Gentlemen.
How's it

(00:22):
going? 131, as a matter of fact, oddly. How
is that possible? How are you I like my actual budget won 11 Grandview, wasn't it? Like, I don't remember.
That
Maybe it wasn't. That but that like, you know, that space, most recently from a biz you know, like, a innovation company, it was Array Digital, which was Eric They now moved out to Chesapeake, and they have three brands under them. It was you guys at Sway at some point. When when were you guys there?
We were there from, I guess, 2012 to probably '19, I think.
Okay. So
good good chunk of time.
So we if we moved in in '12, then you must have been there right then at the same time. Yep. Then Grow had been there at some point. I don't recall what was there in between then, but something about that space.
Something about it, man. Because didn't Norfolk
they offered some sort of grant type of thing to, startups to move in, didn't they? Isn't that how Eric
At that time, they did. Yeah. I believe they still do, some similar sort of stuff for sure.
Vibrant spaces thing?
Yep. Well, yeah. So vibrant spaces. Yeah. That was, a few years after.
So, that was something that, that Drew cooked up, overgrow with, the folks at DNC. And, I mean, there's still some killer businesses that are still open. The grapes placed on the street, you know, and and was really kinda think the the beginnings of of what those guys would wind up doing with assembly.
Yeah. That was the assembly space in one of them. Right? Wasn't Money Paws one of them?
Money Paws was, I believe, one of them. Yep.
Got it. Okay.
Man. Yeah, man. Yeah. That that little that little space has definitely housed some some pretty wild stuff. And it was perfect.
It was, like, three levels, very Yeah.
And you don't expect it. Yeah.
Yeah. I had my Exactly.

(00:43):
When I
had my TV show, we did a couple episodes in there just because Eric was let we we needed a space to record. And so it's
Oh, you didn't you do Zach hacks out of there from time to time?
You know, like, I'm I'm very easy, clearly. I would not do that again today, but thank you for that memory lane. Yeah. Okay. So are you from here?
I can't remember.
I am, man. Yeah. Born in Portsmouth. Grew up in Chesapeake. You know, moved to Norfolk when got a little older, ran away from home for three years, and found myself back.
So yep. Winner is in god's country, p town.
Okay. What high school did you go to?
Western Branch.
Okay.
Yep. Got
it. Then did you go to ODU? Did you go to college?
I did. Yeah. I went to ODU. Was there for a while, and then had an opportunity to to leave and go play music and left as soon as, finished my four years up there and wound up in in Jersey and New York.
Yeah. What's dude, I wanna hear more about the, the music journey if you've
Yeah, man. Well, many many pounds and many hairs ago, I played in a number of bands, like, around here, just kinda locally or what have you, and got an opportunity to join a band that had development deal up in New York City. Went up there and I think completely just, you know, culture shift turned my head upside down as to what the world was all about. So, you know, kid from from Norfolk, Virginia going up and living in the city and sleeping on couches and, you know, traveling the country really kinda shaped, you know, my brain and perspective on everything. Really made a living, you know, designing websites for bands and flyers for bands.
That was really kinda how I got my skill set to begin designing and writing and and developing and all the things that now I do, you know, in the agency setting. So, yeah, it was a big part of my life for a long time there.
There's Yeah.
I love the the grinding aspect
Yeah. Of Oh, yeah, man. DIY. Right? Like, everything
else you
just figured it out. Man, I drove a big converted school bus. It was my primary mode of transportation. So this giant yellow bus, we called it the cool bus because we were stupid. And, yeah, you know, drove that thing all the way across the country, which is absolutely insane when I think about it now.

(01:04):
But but, yeah, man,
that was that was on
the salad days for sure.
There's a ton of, like, conversion vans and converting of vans and buses now. It's like a big thing. Yeah. We actually had a guest on maybe a year or two who who bought a school bus, I think, from New York and then converted it. And now it's got, like, an Airbnb somewhere, and he's making a couple hundred bucks a night off of it.
It's like, okay. Like
Well, yeah.
Crazy that
there's Ours wasn't that slick. We we took it to a dump and basically, you know, spend the, like, $500 or whatever to go and take whatever you want, like a pick and pull. So we were pulling, like, captain's chairs out of boats and, like, convertible beds and stuff set up inside of it. So it was, yeah. It it was something for sure.
But it got us through, man. I slept in that thing many nights in a mini of, Walmart parking lots till, the cops told us to move on. So
Yeah. I was just in Boston last week, and we're still we're there for the weekend, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday kinda thing, but walking by one of the clubs they used was playing that night.
Right.
Yeah. And just it was used? Yeah. And I didn't even know that they're still around or even still doing their thing. But, like so the bus was parked out front, and then behind the bus, they're they're towing the trailer kinda deal.
But, like, the the aspect that you don't see, man, where they had the trailer door open and in there was just boxes and boxes and boxes. And, you know, it was just all T shirts. You know? But you don't see that grinding aspect where you're like, dude, you're you're hustling. You're hustling hard and, you know, I mean, you're making your money on T shirts and all that stuff, man.
It's it's pretty wild.
You are, man. I mean, it's an exercise in marketing. Right? Like, to your point, you're making merch. You're, like, putting flyers up.
You're trying to get any and everybody into that show because, like, your dinner depends on it. You know? It's like we're in some town in the middle in the Midwest who has no idea who the hell we are. Like, it's absolutely imperative that that flyer does something to get them to that door so that, you know, the club owner asks us back, and we have gas money to get the next next spot. So yeah, man.
Yeah. The it taught me a lot.
And you and you gotta play I mean, even if you're playing in front of two or three people, man, you gotta make sure you're you're playing in a way that they're gonna wanna come back when you're making your way back through the other side next time, you know, and that they bring friends so that you're playing in front of six people instead of three.
Hundred percent. And it blows my mind to this day how many people I meet in this business that started in that space too for whatever reason. I mean, we've got tons of people at Sway that are musicians that have, you know, either been touring musicians or at least, know, kinda weekend warrior sort of deal. But I don't know. I guess it's just an adaptable ethos, I guess.
Did you go to the show, Tim?
No. We no. That was you know, man. You you heard about that whole

(01:25):
I know.
Yeah. But
And we went could've happened.
I didn't. What happened?
So we
jeez. This is just Or maybe not.
It's just it's just really it's it's totally ridiculous. So we're we went down Fenway Park area, did our own little makeshift bar crawl kinda thing. We we went to this we ended up at a place called Loretta's. Loretta's.
Okay.
Anyway, that was the last stop of a bar crawl for some charity event that was going on, and I and I'm watching this group of people come through the through the doors. And I was like nudged my wife, and I was like, dude, this person's not gonna make it. Just a stumbling mess. Long story short, this same person ends up next to us, and I I got a little vomit on me at 03:00 in the afternoon, which yeah. You know, that's Boston for you, I guess.
Always a good time.
Always a good time.
I I love that it was 3PM, not 3AM.
Yeah. Great.
Thing. Like
Yeah. I mean, at the end of the
day plan again?
What's that?
Where were the used plan? If you're down by Fenway, was it the Paradise?
No. It was the man, it's gosh. I'm totally blanking on the name, but it's a bigger place. It'll it'll come to me. I can't think of it, but it's it's oh, it's killing me that I can't think of it.
But it's it's I
always wanted to I always wanted to see them. I like Yeah.

(01:46):
Back in the show.
But it it's it's a it's a franchise, if you will.
Right. Okay. I gotcha. Like a hard rock or something like that.
Yeah. But yeah. Man, it's gonna make me crazy. I'm gonna have to do some research super quick. Yeah.
So
interesting just, like, thinking about, like, bands. There's a lot about business in bands and, like, getting to that success. And I I feel like people look at just like these musicians who are who have, let's just say, made it. And they they're very mainstream, and it's like you go back and you're like, wow. Right?
Like so, like, the person I think of in that right now is, like, jelly roll. Right? So jelly roll is huge. But how many years has he been putting
Totally.
Into into making that? And I I feel I'm sure you think the same thing, Jared, and I know Tim does, but, like House of of house of blues. Got it. Gotcha. Cool.
The amount of effort that businesses don't put in to the marketing aspect, to the promotion aspect of what they're doing is is crazy. And so, like, I feel like a lot of what I've learned in business, and as crazy as this, is from, like, the promotion of WWE promoting their own things over and over and over again. ESPN promoting their thing over and over again. It's like, hey. We have this event coming up.
Yep. They've been talking about the draft for so long that I texted you just a couple days ago. Like, when is this thing?
They've been talking about tune in. Yeah. They do. Because you have to get people to tune in. And if you don't get people to tune in, whatever you promise from a commercial perspective isn't gonna be met.
And then maybe there's some sort of, like, you know, screw up there that has to get, you know, fixed. And so it's like, I just I try to tell people all the time, you gotta, like, really reinforce. Like, you have to do this a lot more than you think. You can't just post something one thing and think that it's enough. Right?
And so, like, we just announced we're we we just announced we're doing this event in in August, the Startup World Cup. It's the second time we've done it. It's four months before.
Dude, like I mean, it's a struggle, man. I because I feel like I've already Yeah. I feel like that's the only thing that I'm talking about right now. And I'm like and we still already pulled months of promotion for this thing.
Hundred and nineteen days. Let's go. Only reason I know that is because
you have it on the calendar or anything.
I the only reason I know that is because our ticketing platform has a 19 away.
That's good. That was I I I I like I dig that. Yeah. Create a
little bit of anxiety inducing reminder there for you.
Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, so what what what

(02:07):
From a band standpoint, when you're it's not dude, we're doing one show. August 21, then we're kinda done. But, I mean, you've got many, many shows already booked, you know, and you're trying to balance
Yeah, man.
Multiple fronts. Gosh. I mean, we were coming up in the era of Myspace. Right? So I'll date myself a little bit here.
So, I mean, that that was absolutely everything. Right? I mean, you use that as a platform to book shows, to, you know, commune with other bands, to, you know, court friends that were friends of this band or liked this band or what have you. So, you know, that that was a very big deal, and we spent most of our off time traveling from city to city. You know, one of us was on that laptop trying to, you know, find some some folks to come out to that next show.
I think bands nowadays, man, I I feel even worse for them. And we had, like, one singular platform that we had to worry about. These guys are on every single platform out from YouTube to TikTok to, you know, Insta and the whole nine and developing very different content streams for each one of the platforms. You know, if you're a new artist coming up, one nice city about kind of the breakdown of the old major label kind of system is that you have the opportunity to record and to market and to promote, you know, all your own stuff in a way that wasn't available even to to, you you know, bands our age back ten, fifteen years ago. But, man, it's a full time gig, dude.
And you talk about something like Jelly Roll, who I'm not a huge fan of, but gotta give it to the dude. He hustled. Right? He figured it out. He found a a space for himself online and, you know, was able to get his music out there.
And it's it's insane to me watching the strategies that these guys deploy, some of which are not even totally self serving. They're, like, very subtle strategies. Like, how do I write a song that's going to become, you know, a a wildly used TikTok sound or what have you. Right? Like, I just can't imagine going into creating art like that under the auspices of, like, this will be my end to then people hearing all my other songs that were really kinda made for me.
Like, that's just a weird place to be in as a creator and as a musician, and I just I don't know, man. I'd I'd give those guys their flowers all day long that any working musician that's still out there trying to do it because you are running a full time media company, and, you know, all it used to be about is can you write a decent song? You know?
That's Lil Nas X, basically, to a t. Right? Isn't that his how he does his kind of thing?
Yeah. %. Exactly right. But on the flip
side Exactly. How
big of a team do you think a Tay Tay has or a Katy Perry has that that is doing that once you've, quote, unquote, made it? I mean, they have to they have to have a team of, what, ten, fifteen people that are doing that now?
Oh, man. Any anyway. I mean, they've got some pretty world famous, you know, number twos. Like, their their PR folks and their management is wildly dense. You know?
I think big thing there too is, you know, start up capital on the front end. I mean, that that's a VC talk, but that's legit what's up. I mean, Taylor Swift is great as she is, and she's an incredible songwriter. Can't take anything away from her. Awesome performer.
Has done something in the space that nobody has done and maybe will ever match from that concert experience that she pulled off the past few years. But, you know, have a little dough to help her get going, and and, you know, that always helps. So there's a lot of that. I think it's it's interesting too just the way that we're consuming music and finding music and valuing music too from an art perspective. And I don't wanna get on my Spotify rant here, but, you know, understanding how how little artists make on one of those streams, how they have to recoup the money that they spent to get it on that distribution service, and then ultimately, you know, to to make any coin at all that, you know, would constitute a living.
I don't mean, like, crazy eighties days where, you know, Motley Crue is living in these decadent, like, mansions. I'm talking, like, pay your bills and have a cheeseburger or two a week. You know? Tough, man. It's tough.
So, yeah, when you reach that kind of, like, critical mass level where, you know, you've got that many people under you and a label that's basically laying down and letting you do whatever, It's a rarefied air, man. There's only a handful of artists, especially new artists that are coming out that ever really achieve that because it's not just, you know, kind of the landscape anymore. It's it's
tough to do. And there's no shortage of people trying to do it either.
No, sir.
Isn't it like you only make, like, a couple hundred bucks for, like, millions of views? Isn't it something like I've heard of that?
Your Spotify stream on average is 0.003¢, not even a cent. So so do that math really quickly. Right? So it costs you $50 to get on one of those platforms to distribute a full length record. Right?

(02:28):
So divide $50 by point zero zero three. That's what you got until you're just, you know, clean. You're you're you're even. Right? Then most of these distribution platforms that let you, you know, digitally distribute across all the platforms like, you know, Apple and and Spotify, etcetera, they have basically, like, $20 escrow accounts that you have to exceed that before they'll send you a check.
So think of all of these small garage vans that have to reach tens of thousands of plays before they're, you know, they're actually making any money. And then on top of that, how many times over before they make money that is, you know, remotely livable. So, you know, next time you you understandably crow about how much ticket prices are for, you know, the indie rock band that you used to be able to see for $15, well, now maybe I have little bit of an understanding why.
From a
Well, that's because of Ticketmaster. That's
That too. That that part too, but also even just merch sales and things of that nature, you know, it's compounded. So it's tough, man. Yeah.
I don't remember if we were on the show or not, Zach. But, like, I I because I was looking to get tickets to go see Blink one eighty two at the amphitheater, man. I was like, dude, hundred and $83 a ticket, man. There I it's just I can't I just can't do it. So I went back, and I looked at my scrapbook, you know, and I found my ticket stub from Nirvana at 94, and it was $19.95.
19 dollars for the ticket. I mean, it's just man.
And way to miss a layup at making those ticket prices a hundred and 83. I mean, if you were gonna go for it, might
as well They should've made a hundred and 82.
Yeah. You know? Like,
I don't
Just ground ball stuff. It's all
the small things. You know?
It's it, man. It's it.
I think that one band that I found on Spotify that has made it big, I don't know how big, but is Rainbow Kent Surprise? I don't know if you know them.
Yeah. I'd actually do know them, but you might turn me onto them a while back.
And they've
been but really cool stuff.
Yeah. It's a very weird damn name. You're almost like, can that get big? I have this game that I play with myself. It's very weird.
It's a weird thing to say, but you're familiar with the the app Shazam that tells you, like, what songs these are. So I try to play a game where it's like, find the the song that has the most streams
And the least.

(02:49):
And then the least. And so Tim has seen this, like, literally there. We were at Pharrell's thing downtown. What was that called? The elephant?
Not not the elephant one. The other one.
Mighty Dream.
Mighty Dream. He had this music What what was that thing that we were at, Tim, where they had the musicians come in and then they played their songs?
Stellarmusic.com stage. This
Yep. Exactly. Like Yeah. We we did all the we did all the work for that. So we we did all the design work and all the setup.
So you did that poster? Cool.
Hope you like
it.
So we're we're doing that, and I'm there, and these people are playing. And they're like, I'm literally getting the first Shazam. So
Yeah. Yeah.
I think that's pretty cool. You know? I think the highest one I think I've ever found is, like, Lord Royals. Is that what what it was? Like, 35,000,000 Shazams or something like that.
Well, like, you know,
I don't do that. Curious thing, though. That that that that gets my brain going because it's like, you wouldn't Shazam something that is so ridiculously well known. Like, I'm sure Freebird doesn't have very many Shazams. Right?
But something like, Lord, you're right, is kind of that weird Goatie. That
That 100 goaties.
That's cool, man. I I kinda like that, though, that challenge.
I will so, like, I'll throw on Apple Music. I'll yeah. And I'll just let it play. I'm like, man, I'm already paying for the subscription. If I can throw my boys a 0.003¢ per screen, I'll just let that thing go and
Here you go.
Try to
Gotta listen for longer than thirty seconds too.

(03:10):
Is that what the is that what the time is?
Yep. Thirty one seconds. Yeah. A lot of the work that we do with Sony, you know, obviously, we're we're judged on the number of plays ultimately that solicits out of out of whatever the fan experience is. So if we don't get that fan to listen past that thirty one seconds, it doesn't count.
So Wow. You know, that's yeah. Now they do all kinds of fun stuff to to calculate.
How does that translate into your business? Do you work with clients typically that understand all this stuff, or are you more educating them that, hey, man. We gotta grind. We gotta repetition, repetition, repetition. What what's your ideal client base that you work with today?
Yeah. I mean, specifically to, you know, all the music stuff that we're kinda talking about here. Yeah. Obviously, that that definitely comes into play when we're working with any sort of entertainment client because there's always some sort of baseline around whether it's streaming or, you know, ultimate music downloads and things of that nature. So they kinda understand that ecosystem.
Right? Because they live and breathe it every single day, and they live and die on record sales and how far it's advancing. I think just technology as a whole, you know, spinning up all of our clients and the folks that we work with and trying to find new solutions for them is totally part of what we do. I mean, that's that's what they expect of us and and what we ultimately have to bring. We're really lucky, and this isn't lip service.
You know, the large majority of the clients that we work with are are pretty savvy, which is awesome. Right? Because they understand the language. We're not bringing them anything that's over their head. We might bring them things that, you know, push their understanding of of the technology and means and, you know, delivery mechanisms just to get their message out there that are different than they've seen before.
But they they get the language. Right? They know how to speak it back to us. So, that's super helpful because, you know, the last thing that you wanna be in, you know, the kinda habit of doing is having to do this full explanation and one zero one of, you know, the technology behind the idea before you even pitch the idea. Like, technology works best when it's invisible.
So, you know, you want something that's an enablement to a really smart creative message, not, you know, hung on the novelty of of this cool new shiny tech thing.
Man, I'm just thinking. Artists today, man, they probably don't even remember they probably don't even know what liner notes are, man. That was always, like, my favorite thing. Get a get through whatever. CD, cassette
Yeah, man.
Vinyl, and just to do the liner notes, man. Like, the dive into those, that was that was the thing for me anyway.
What is it?
Liner notes. Like, the inside sleeve of a CD or a record. Oh. Where you're like, look at the lyrics or look at Yeah.
The CD would have the booklet that would come in or the cassette you would unfold it. You know? Do those.
You'd feel ripped off if you didn't get, like, a decent book. You know? It was like Gosh. Look at these lazy dudes.
Dude, those were the days.
I don't remember those days. I
had those up on my, like, bedroom wall, man. Those were, like, my post.
Like, back in the day day, like, I would save all the the cardboard cartons that, the CDs came in, the big long sleeves.
The long tall ones. Yeah.

(03:31):
Yeah. Man. Yeah. Those were, those were the days.
Yeah, man.
People got robbed. Peer people are getting robbed today.
Cost too much.
I I'm gonna make a statement, and I know you don't believe it. But I want you to tell me why. Okay?
Talent's accepted.
I don't think people, when they hear the words Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Hampton Roads, this region, pair that with creativity.
Yeah.
I don't think they look at that this area as being a creative place. I just I don't think those are the first words that would come to mind.
But at the same time, though, there's so much of it. I mean, it's so much of it that is just I don't know. It's so weird.
I Creativity is everything in this subjective way. Right? For sure.
I mean, I I will tell you this. Like, you know, I think this region has produced some of the most creative people I've certainly ever met. You know, I've I've had the luxury of, like, mentioned at the top, you know, live in a sun star from New York City for three years, going into the city absolutely every single day, and being in the mix of what is probably undeniably one of the most, if not the most, place on earth. Right? Traveling with bands, musicians, seeing unbelievable, you know, artists that were making really, really cool stuff.
And I can tell you that some of the people that I've ran into here have that same caliber of talent and have that same caliber of care. I think part of what makes this place interesting is the opportunity for it to be malleable. If you can find an opportunity to break through and you can bring one of those creative ideas to bear, you you're gonna have a really hard time making that happen in a New York City or a San Francisco or, you know, insert Austin like place here. Because the system's already set up to, you know, placate those that already have, you know, track records of doing these ideas. So, you know, for me, I think what makes Norfolk interesting, I think you're right, Norfolk, Virginia Beach interesting.
You're right that when you compare it to some of these huge cultural hubs, you know, there's a lot going on that that, you know, we need to kind of up our game and kinda get there. But, man, the bones here are out of control. You've got some world class places from museums to unbelievable arts organizations like, you know, Virginia Arts Festival to what Festivalence is doing. You've got unbelievable stages and rooms that sound killer that have the opportunity when, you know, the right act is in there to do something really kind of amazing. And I think you've got a stream too of and this is starting to sound very much, you know, put my visit.
Norvig had I'm here on for a second. But but genuinely, like, you've got a stream here in Hampton Roads too of of really awesome education places and institutions that are, you know, putting kids out into the world. I think what we need to concentrate on is figuring out how the heck to keep them here. Right? And making certain that we're not losing our best creators to other cities to go and further their city's reputation of how creative a voice it is and make them wanna come back home and and actually have an impact here.
So, you know, for me, yeah, I I would disagree with you. I do think that this is a supremely creative place, but I do not think it's nearly, at its potential of the supremely creative place it could be.
I'm just an instigator. You know? I was trying to get that out of you. I think your answer was great. The what are other city and I I I whenever someone's like, we need to be the next San Francisco.
We need to be the next awesome like, the I hate that talk. I hate that statue. I think it's dumb. Be yourself. Own you.
Figure that out. Right?
Totally agree.
Over the years, you know, to me, the the if if I was to define this region in one word, it would be water. Mhmm. Right? And there's so many things associated with water. Sure.

(03:52):
There's, like, tentacles of where that goes with the beer scene, the military, the beaches, etcetera. Right? But I I think what you said there is is maybe a missing piece that is not vocalized enough, but it's the if you go somewhere else, it's gonna be very hard for you to break in. But if you if you come here, you can become a big fish in a small pond very easily type of thing. And I and I think that's that's a a unique asset to this region that is is not communicated a lot.
Yeah.
I mean,
you like, I mean, I worked in TV news for three years, and then, like, within, like, eighteen months, people knew who I was after I had left there. And I'm like, okay. Well, this is weird. How do I do this? And I think it's kinda like what you're just saying.
It's like, how how like
Well, yeah. I mean, you I think you also, like, take on this opportunity too and and maybe obligation responsibility of of making, you know, the pond bigger too. Right? It ain't just being a big fish and, know, you're able to dominate because of lack of competition or or whatever it kinda is. It's, you know, when you when you get onto something and you find an opportunity to be elevated here and people start to catch on to what the heck it is that you're doing, you've got an obligation to to try to widen that pond.
And, you know, we're talking about that a little bit and that kind of pre show, like, for us too, it it's it's beginning to get to a place where at now, you know, 40 and some change years old with two kids. Like, I'm looking backwards and saying, how can I help, you know, these kids that are coming up with all these new ideas that maybe ain't my thing, but are ultimately going to be a driver to make Norfolk that cool place that you're describing? You know? How do we empower those guys to see their vision through, to help them cut through some of the mistakes that we made, to help them navigate the, you know, understandable red tape sometimes of of, you know, what it takes to pull an event off or, you know, get a restaurant opened or or whatever it is. You know, being in service to those folks that are coming up after us, I think, is kind of what our charge ought to be now versus, you know, trying to include more things that we're totally into.
Because at the end of the day, that's what's gonna make this place even better, not just creatively, but, you know, economically, like, making a better place to live, better place for people to wanna bring businesses to you. You know, go go down the list of of, you know, benefits that that that comes with. Any great metropolitan area is, you know, largely dependent on really sound creative people that are doing cool things that make people wanna show up. You know? So getting out of their way a bit and and helping them versus entering them, I think, is objective number one.
It's it's wild because I used to be I don't know if I ever vocalized this. I'm sure I've said it to Tim. But, like, let's like, I really wanted to be the center of attention on stuff. I really wanted to be loud and vocalized with some of the stuff we're doing, and I don't anymore. Right?
And I really, like, really, like, it's become kinda, like, my individual mission to be like, okay. How can we make that pond bigger? How can we take some of the things that I've learned over the years and really elevate other individuals, other businesses to to do those type of things? And so I I don't know. I even think it's maybe even more rewarding to to do that type of stuff because it's like, oh, cool.
Like, you you helped nurture this individual, this business, whatever. And so it's it's I feel like we're without even talking ten years, like, we've we've kind of matured into these individuals who are, like Well, there's instigators back in the day, and now we're like,
oh We're the them now.
Yeah.
Right? We're the them now.
And that's what I'm I'm sitting back thinking about this, man. It's like, where did the time go? Yeah. It will It will
now It's a cool thing, though. Like, I I I kinda love that because, you know, gosh, I I wish that the them that I was going up against when we were coming up and trying to do some cooler things in this city Had the history that that I do now as I'm, you know, a business owner and somebody that you know, taxpayer and all this jazz and, you know, we we are the people that, you know, we used to, excuse my French bitch about, like, couldn't get anything through. Like, we we have to come to that that revelation realization that, like, oh, that that's on us now. And and we've gotta be receptive to not be the VIMs that we, you know, confronted back in the day. So, yeah, man.
That that's that's been my realization here as of late as well and and trying to figure out ways to to kinda, you know, sounds completely trope ish, but but kinda give back to, you know, what's coming up now and and figuring those things out. And you gotta build those bridges, man. That's it's not always the easiest thing too
of No.
It's hard. How you tap into that energy. You know? But I've also got a business that's ran on, you know, young creative talent too. So if if I'm not doing my part to nurture it, then I'm hurting my own business too.
I learned that through a lot of you guys too, like, with building the plot back in the day, and it was like a sense of place.
That's it.

(04:13):
I feel like you and me got the most out of the plot than anyone. Old plot, main plot. Right? And, I mean, that was, our playground in our front yard. It was like, oh, we have this park.
Do you ever see that, Tim? You remember that. Right? The plot downtown? Yeah.
I mean, no offense to the new plot, but the old plot is spot.
The killer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, and that was just one of those things that someone told us that we couldn't do it. And you know what I mean?
It was just like, well, it's it's sitting there. It's temporary. We know eventually there's gonna be a giant hotel here that's gonna be beautiful and x y z thing, and it is now. Right? But Mhmm.
You know, in the meantime, why not do something kind of cool with it? You know? And and and then the neon came together in the exact same kind of way. It's think it's just, you know, finding people now that still have that same kind of energy that wanna see similar things and connecting them with other people that are kindreds that can help them do it. Because, you know, we always kinda joke about, you know, that that group of people have gone on to open their own businesses and are, like, super successful, you know, up and down Grammy Street and throughout Norfolk, throughout Hampton Roads.
But it was that weird kinda coming together with this almost, like, Justice League of of skills. We had architects that were awesome at at WPA. We're doing amazing things. We had, you know, folks that understood the digital space over at Grow. We had lawyers that were with us.
We had, you know, kind of these folks from every facet of the industry. So, you know, if we needed a presentation put together, ask the guy that does advertising all day long. You know? If we needed, you know, blueprints or or sketches done of of what a potential site could look like, awesome. We've got an architect that can do that for next to nothing.
Right? So that that spirit of just wanting to contribute to a place just because we wanted to make it better, not because we had any ulterior motives of it leading to new business for us or, like, anything else. We we just wanted some cool things to enjoy on the weekends when we weren't working. And, you know, now it it's kinda becoming like, I wanna be able to drive my stuff with my kids and point to it and be like, yeah. Your dad had something to do with that.
You know? But it's still that same kind of energy.
You think it's the same for real? I
do, man. I I do. I mean, it it dude, it adds in it adds in tides like anything.
Yeah. It just, man, it just seems like there's so much noise now. And Yeah. And it's just like, how do you break through the noise to get people to support? There's just so many different things, and there's so much dilution.
And Yeah. Yeah. That it's just
like,
man. Like, how do we get multiple hundred people to show up to, as Zach mentioned, the Startup World Cup? I mean, it was like Right. We're gonna be grinding super hard to drive attendance to that. And
I think that's that's a big part of it too, though. Right? Like and I and I say this as pot calling kettle black. Right? Like, your energy level has got to match the challenge.
Right? Like, back in the day, I had a whole heck of a lot more time and a whole heck of a lot more energy that that hustle was, you know, I think second place to the objective. It was like, yeah. That's just part of it. I don't care.
I'm running through walls until this thing gets done. Nowadays, it's you've got very limited time. You got, you know, all these kind of things that that makes that seem harder. And and maybe the level of effort, is the same. It's just, you know, you've got constraints on on what you're able to do.
So Yeah. It's where you gotta, like, handle the ball to other folks and, like, really figure out how do I put this in in the hands of of people that do still have that energy, do still have that fever at at the same quotient that we do. Right? Like, we all still have it, but we also you know, I don't know, man. I tire easy.
Like, it's it's tough.

(04:34):
I well, and that's just it, man. Like, I I tell people, man, if it's important, you'll find a way. If not, you'll find an excuse.
Hey, man. Nobody has time. You gotta make time. You know?
I watched a show, and I know reality TV is ridiculous, but it was way back in the day, I believe, on the channel AMC. It was called the pitch.
Okay. Yeah.
And in advertising yeah. And so the the premise was there's two companies, and they were pitching to get this piece of business. Is that is that, like, how you guys actually get business? Is a lot of the RFP or driving to that or doing a lot of, like, free work beforehand and then never winning? They're like like because to me, I was like, wow.
That's a lot of work to never get anything, or is this just, like, showtime? Like, you're you're doing this for, you know, the production of
Yeah.
TV show? Like, it what is the advertising world like to acquire business?
So the answer is yes. Kind of all of the above. I mean, we we are very lucky that we've been able to really create some outstanding brand advocates for ourselves. Right? So, you know, when we contract work with somebody for the first time, you know, we over deliver.
We show them everything that we possibly can. It's our job to show them what they want, what they never knew they wanted. Right? And what we've been able to do is kinda create this suite of, like, brand evangelists that either move up and move on and and take us with them. So, you know, we've had, for instance, a a client that we had kinda day one was Value Options, which is this big behavioral health care seller.
Right? They merged with the next big company up, and we were in a bake off between their agency and and ours. We won that business and now became the agency record for the biggest behavioral health care insurance provider in the country. That brand manager then went on elsewhere and wound up at Rite Aid and brought us with them. And next thing you know, we were developing the Rite Aid brand identity.
He's now at Xylem Kindle, which has now become the third biggest they're based right here in Hampton Roads, the third biggest, you know, vegetation management and becoming this huge infrastructure group. So for us, we've we've done a very good job of not failing a lot of people and just kinda doing what we said we were gonna do and being that in the trenches partner so that when these people move on, they they take us with them. But, yeah, there's still I mean, dude, I'm doing probably I think I have five RPs on my desk right now, which is challenging, man. I mean, you know, it's only so many times you can write something the same way and and have it come off a little bit different, not bore yourself. You know?
And for us, we've always tried to approach RFPs in a very, toward charming way. Right? Like, not make them so stuffy and business objective. That's been really hard with the advent of AI to, like, leave that part out of it and try to to focus on it still coming across as very authentic and very much us. So, you know, I think we've won a lot of business that way in the way in which we present our work and talk about our work and lay out the strategy in a way that's maybe a little bit different and not so stuffy as some of our competitors do.
But then too, yeah, there are certain opportunities wherein spec work comes into play. And we've always really been big proponents of of not doing spec work, not because, we feel we're beneath it or or what have you. We just kinda feel like it devalues the work of it. And and ultimately too, feel like it it it's kind of irresponsible. Like, how can you, before you've been contracted by these, you know, potential clients, really have a full sense of what it is they're after?
What are their key performance indicators? What are they trying to accomplish with this thing without having that kind of discovery period of of getting to know each other and knowing what they like and what they don't, what they're trying to pull off. Like, anything you're throwing is just, you know, throwing stuff against the wall and hoping that it sticks or, you know, showing off your your design chops or, hell, that was a clever headline. But whether or not it's gonna ultimately serve a a business objective for them is, you know, it's tough to tell at that point. Do we do it?
Occasionally, yeah. I mean, when there's an opportunity big enough or something we feel passionately about that we want, do we get in the mix and and come up with a few, you know, on the house ideas? Absolutely. Is it something that we do on the regular? Not really, man.
And I've I've seen a lot of RFPs too as of late, and I and I love this. I think beginning to kinda catch on to that. Like, kinda understanding that, like, you know, it's a bit of a fool's errand to ask of you to solve our marketing objectives before we've even told you what they really are. Right? You've gotta get that in the weeds and that intimately understanding of institutionally what they've got going on before you can, you know, responsibly offer a creative solution solving it.
So but, yeah, man. It's a it's all of the above, dude. It it it ups and downs, I mean, I'm I'm running an RP right now that's at about 83 pages. I'll turn another one in next week. That's probably only about 12.
You know? So the asks are sometimes super dense, sometimes very lightweight, and you just gotta kinda roll with the punches. It it's always a joke around here. It's like, oh, well, you can borrow some of that stuff from the last RFP of dude, never works that way. It's always from scratch.
It's always like, no. This doesn't quite work because of this one or two little variables or whatever. And, and, you know, you're writing from go again. So
I always thought that your world was a lot more relationship based. I didn't, you know, I I didn't realize that you're responding to RFPs. Like, is there, like, a a portal that that that Great question. Yeah.

(04:55):
I I mean, for for the most part, it is relationship based. Like I said, I mean, you know, we I would say probably 60 to 70% of the business that we have right now is, you know, almost old school word-of-mouth. I mean, we don't have a new business director. We we haven't really had a steady new business director for a number of years because we've been very lucky to be able to take one job and turn it into three and then turn it into, oh, you did web work for us. Oh, wow.
You do TV too? Oh, sick. Let's try you out on that and just, you know, we call it bubble business, and we just have been able to evolve that and continue to see it. The RP world is is something that, you know, it's for one, it's cyclical. Right?
And it's something too that any sort of government or state adjacent work has to go through that process. Right. So you look at something like we do a lot of work in travel tourism. Visit Norfolk's One of our clients. Virginia Tourism Corporation's one of our clients.
Regenings for Lovers. Those, by procurement, you know, have to, every four or five years, go through a process wherein they vet individuals and individual agencies and, you know, we compete. So and a lot of times, we're competing against some of the biggest names on Madison Avenue. I mean, when we won that Rite Aid business, when we won the the Virginia tourism business, We're talking about, you know, large eight, nine hundred person agencies, sometimes in the thousands of the of people agencies that are doing work for, you know, biggest brands in the land, the Geico's and the Walmarts and the Budweiser's of the world. So, you know, for us, being able to compete on that level and a lot of times win in those competitions, it's a big coup for us, man.
So, you know, navigating kind of both streams of of how you find that business and ultimately, to how you heck you keep it, are, you know, things that are on our radar every single day to try to make certain that we're we're expanding what we're doing. You know, we've we've got more work than, we know what to do with.
Is it, does it make big big waves in your world when, like, a marketing agency, when when CarMax leaves marketing agency and goes somewhere? I I think they just went with an LA marketing. Is is that big news amongst your world, or is that
For sure. I mean, for sure. I mean, you know, the the larger agency world is in a weird spot right now. It's it's actually, you know, analog back to the music world. They're being a lot of agencies are being swallowed up right now by these giant holding companies.
Right? And very much like how smaller record indie labels were being swallowed up by the mammoth, you know, record companies. And it's getting to a place where these holding companies are almost running some of these agencies as, their farm team. Right? So you're losing people.
So the creative director that worked with you on your last campaign is probably not gonna be the same correct creative director, as will work with you on the next one. Because if they were any good, they've been cherry picked and, you know, pulled up to the next agency or the the next level up. It also too is is it conflates things a lot too because they've got so many people working on this stuff that things are lost in translation. They're not in the trenches actually with the clients. So, you know, the big agency world right now is absolutely in, you know, our our realm of understanding and learning about what's going on and certainly sends ripples when, you know, they lose a big client like that.
One for, man, is there any opportunity we can get on that client roster to maybe win some of that work? But but I think more emphatically, just kind of the state of where the big agency is right now, is making it kind of an opportune time for an agency like ours that is that kind of right size agency that's coming up and trying to find ways to go back to just giving good client service, which sounds like such a brass tack vanilla thing to offer as a as a USP, but but it is. They're not used to that anymore because there's not consistency in the people that they're working with. There's not consistency in pricing because it's, you know, all up and down based on who they use. There's hidden fees for days.
So, you know, for us, it's it's trying to kinda best that convention of what that big agency model is and not try to aspire to be that, but try to be that independent agency that can get in the the trenches with these folks and come up with ideas that are gonna work.
How? What what are your thoughts on the robots on AI? That's what
Man, I I think if you're not leaning into it, you're you're crazy. I mean, we very, very quickly adapted so many AI tools into our our workflow. I mean, I'd Claude is my best friend, dude. You know, Claude, mid journey, we're using something called Mureka to help us with, like, original scoring and, you know, and especially too when you get into outside of just the, like, freemium sets and and really get into, like, the professional suites of what you can do with these things. It's bonkers, dude.
I mean and and it is just so unbelievably helpful for us to distill information for very menial tasks that would be just time sucks. I mean, I think that that's the biggest gift that it's given us. Is it right in ads for us? No. Is it gonna create a beautiful image for us that's that's gonna feel authentic?
No. I mean, we're still years away from that, in my opinion, to get to a place wherein, you know, you're able to create something that can be just as emotive as if you went and shot it. And I know, you know, Coca Cola's running ads with, you know, AI generated polar bears and stuff at Christmas time or whatever, but there's still a level of, I think, people knowing what's real and what ain't. But as an augmentation to what you're already doing, as an empowerment tool to, you know, help you take notes and track action items and, you know, help you develop iterations of things that you've already created, you know, from scratch, helping you create kind of vibe imagery from mood boards and things of that nature. That that's stuff that would have required hours and hours and hours of time and research and digging and searching and, you know, putting things together that now we can knock out in an afternoon.
So, you know, I I I really am of the headspace of I don't think it's as good as everybody thinks it is yet, and I stress yet. Could
change tomorrow. Fast.
It is. But I also don't think it's taking my job anytime soon. You know? Yeah.
It's dude, it's crazy how fast things are moving. I mean, it's just and, yeah, you've gotta leverage it a %. It's it's funny to me just listening to you, and I'm, like, using the robots for the robots. Like, I, you know, I I dig mid journey, but it's just I struggle with, like, really getting that prompt just right to get the results that I'm looking for. So then I'll I'll go to another robot.
Man, help me with this prompt, man. I just can't get it. And Yep.
It's just What's what's Midjourney?

(05:16):
Midjourney is an image generation AI tool. So it's it's really powerful. You can upload, you know, reference pieces. You can say, hey. I like the style of that.
Adhere that style to this new prompt. There's a lot of different kind of ins and outs to make it make it clean. You know, all these things are are kind of you know, obviously, the the kind of gold standard is is everybody using ChatGPT is sort of what you're first introduced to. It all of the tools that we use are basically, like, more defined, more complex, more feature driven versions of the kind of brass tacks prompt offerings that something like that would afford you.
Yeah. I think the thing that's so paralyzing to me, man, is it just it's the possibilities of what you put into a prompt is is really unlimited. So it's just it's almost paralyzing to me.
Last night, it turned my dog into a human.
There's that. Didn't turn it back, I think, is the most important.
I wanted to actually I've seen about this last night. Like, could it turn me into a dog? Like, what maybe I need to do that. I'm a do that for all I'm a do that for all of us and send you guys a picture of what what we look like from there. What what do you what would you say is Sway's bread and butter?
Yeah, man. Our our bread and butter is a % campaign, you know, generation. Like, given an opportunity to build something from ground up and talk to every single facet and work in every single channel. So we're very, very lucky that we've got some unbelievably talented people that work under this roof for a a billion others in in remote work setting. But being able to take a a specific business objective, figure out what the problem is that our client is facing, and develop a campaign that responds to it from a creative perspective, from a strategy perspective, from a media placement perspective, knowing where these ads are going to go to make certain that they're very tailored and in front of, the people that they need to be in front of, being able to support that with, you know, the digital side of the ball, developing, you know, microsites and and, you know, display in a social unit, etcetera, all in house to be able to do that, writing and designing those pieces.
So, you know, we do a lot of by project work, you know, where it's like, hey. Build us a website or, hey. Make us a logo. But I think we are our best when someone kinda hands us the keys and says, look. This is our issue.
We've got a campaign with a decent budget to solve it. What do we do? And and that's that's where we live and breathe, and I think that's where we've had our most success and probably what we're most known for.
When I went through reason.
Alright. To your team, you internally or externally?
Do you 90% internally. Nearly 100%. I mean, we we have always kind of gone out of our way to say, let's make sure that we've got the people in house. Because it it works just like any other team, man, any other sports team. Like, the longer these guys play with each other and and have the opportunity to work and create together, the better the stuff's going to be, know, the better the language communication.
And do you record recruit them locally, or do you have to go out beyond as opposed to get them?
So great question. That's something that, you know, it's gross to use the word opportunity in the midst of in context of something like pandemic. But the pandemic was was actually pretty advantageous for us from a hiring perspective because, again, back to these kind of big agency conglomerates, we're firing people left and right. They were just letting folks go because of the uncertainty and and, you know, the economic shifts and everything else. And we were able to find people across the country that were working for some of these really large agencies that maybe otherwise wouldn't have considered Norfolk, Virginia at home for whatever reason that now we could bring on remotely and have been able to retain them.
So we're about fifty fifty. I mean, one thing that I have seen is a lot of our leadership team resides here in Hampton Roads, and a lot of folks have been with us for a really long time. But it's a good mix, man. I mean, we've got folks in Washington State, in Florida, New York City, like, all over the place, all over the map. So it's it's been cool.
We've got somebody in Japan now, which is awesome. And we've been able to bring people in too from Brazil, from from other localities as well that just offer unique perspectives and give us a chance to make certain that everything that's coming out of the shop doesn't look exactly the same, doesn't sound exactly the same. So, it's been great for us.
Very cool. The so you guys the reason why I start getting Spanish ads because I'm doing five minutes of Duolingo a day?
Como? Could be one of the reasons. Yes, sir.
There you go. Higher sweat. What's something we haven't talked about that's
I I got something real quick that I wanna throw out there. Is what what's your what's your take when if if you hear someone locally say that they they have to hire an agency that has bigger chops that is located outside of the area. I mean, like, you you guys grow. I mean, you're it's just amazing talent that is capable of doing, like, national level stuff. You know?
What what what do what do you say to people locally here saying, hey. What about us over here? We're we're we're capable of doing that.

(05:37):
Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, number one, I would say, they don't have better shops. You know, having been, you know, you mentioned Grow down the street, like, incredible agency, one I had the pleasure of working for too.
They're in that same boat. I mean, the people that we have working for us and the the book of business and the projects that we've done are on par with any of these larger agencies. But, yeah, you you absolutely have an uphill battle, and you're naive if you don't, you know, think that. I think the the big USPs for us is just the ability to actually talk to the people that are doing the work. I mean, so often when you deal with one of these larger agencies, you're dealing with people in a pitch that you never see again when you win the business, or they disappear when a bigger company walks through the door and they need to, you know, divert their attention to that.
So Yeah. I think what's so advantageous about working with a shop like ours is, you know, we are nimble. We're not small, but we're not, you know, massive either. There's not a lot of, you know, an account person that then walks and talks to producer that then walks and talks to the actual person that's doing the work. It's you know, you're you're talking to the people that are that are putting these things together and creating this stuff on the fly.
There's a lot of lot of advantageous, you know, opportunity there. So, you know, for us, I think it's just really selling the the the the opportunity to, you know, be a part of that and be a true partner versus just being another client that's on our roster. I think something else too that we've been able to to really see that be effective is, man, we have really made an MO of of kind of playing cleanup for a lot of these agencies that have gone in and treated these clients like second class citizens because they're not at the top of the roster. And a a client that might be four or five for somebody else is the number one for us.
So Right.
You know, it it, you know, it it helps to put people on that pedestal sometimes, and they get it, and they appreciate it.
Yeah. I dig that. I mean, it's just like the thing it just makes me kinda crazy. It's just like, oh, when we wanna be the next Nashville or the next Charlotte or whatever, it's like, well, in order to do that, we need to hire an agency from outside of this area. You know?
Yeah. Because I I mean, this is like, dude, get such talented people here, and it just the whole you don't get fired for hiring IBM cliche, man. It's just like, that makes me kinda crazy. This is like, did the amount of passion that you put into something's huge.
It works the other way too, though. Right? I mean, it it it works from our perspective of not just being out there crowing about, oh, we don't get the big work. It's like, well, how do you go about doing that and being realistic about how you approach it? I mean, I'll give you an example.
We got spun up on a project for LifeWater. Well, LifeWater is owned by Pepsi. Right? So in our view, like, we're gonna absolutely overdeliver for this brand manager at LifeWater that, you know, probably in the hierarchy of of where he works, you know, maybe that's not the most sought after brands we want to work for. We can create something that's really captivating for him.
Well, next week, he might be working on Diet Pepsi, and we might be working with him. Or he might go over to Coke, and we get to to go hang out over there. Right? So, you know, it's also, like, looking for smart openings and knowing how to scale in a way that gets you to that work that ultimately that you want to do, But and doing so by by proving your worth, man, and showing that, you know, you can do the work at the same caliber as some of these other agencies, but you're so much better to work with and have a client service that's unmatched to it and, you know, ultimately have people that wanna be partners. So, you know, we we do just as much, I think, winning that kind of, you know, punching above our weight kind of business by figuring out how to how to fight the early rounds and, you know, crappy gyms, you know, and
Love it.
Working your way through.
That's awesome.
Glad you slipped that in, Tim. Wait a that was good.
Two minutes
is free. Anything else you wanna talk about?
I don't know.
Okay. Tim, you want
You you want
me to? Me to.

(05:58):
Tee it up, man.
Okay. I think the last few weeks for this question have resulted in some very good answers. And I would expect nothing less from you, so please don't disappoint us.
Really You guys gotta go.
Yeah. Okay. So you're bringing in a teammate from outside. You're bringing in a client from outside. You bring them in through the Norfolk International Airport that you guys helped redesign.
Yep. And then, they get six. They gotta go to Rite Aid down the street, you know, which you guys also redesign.
Team me up, man. They get their Virginia's for lovers shirt.
Yep. They're they're they're actually at Town Park. Center. Yeah. They're at Town Point Park, which you're part of the Get going, man.
You know, bring yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Keep going, man. Yeah.
Yeah. Gotcha.
Okay.
And then, you know, they're they're
Eat their Smithfield ham on the way.
Well well, that now we're kinda getting there. Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
So is there a place, food wise, that you have to take them, or is there a food of the region similar to the buffalo wing, the The Boston Cream. Philly. The Boston Cream.
Yeah. Well, we we did a series. I mean, this sounds like such a total
Yes. With Nama Ramo. Right?
Total work. Yeah. Cloud City with Bite. That was literally about that. It was defining these places that are just absolutely killer.
I mean, I think what Norfolk's appeal is from a culinary scene, we do ourselves a disservice if we said it's this one thing. I have always viewed this place as a transient community, not as a pejorative. Like, I think that's an awesome thing to be. That totally resonates when you start talking about food. Right?
Where you've got all these people that are coming in from the military, from the navy, that are winding up settling here, that come from all over the place, that have been stationed all over the place, that have been turned on to all these different types of food. We're one of the few places I feel like in the country that have that level of different types of citizens and diversity of cuisine. So for me, I don't think you you landed on any one singular thing. I think it's that capita, we actually have one of the highest concentrations of independent restaurants in the country. That's just data.

(06:19):
That's just that's real talk. So, you know, number one places that I I would send it, I have a few. If I'm if I'm doing date night, there's a joint called Crudo Nudo up the street that that is incredible. Cat from Suffolk, brilliant chef, really awesome. And I'll shout out my buddy Parker too at Tap House, which is just, my favorite hang to just go and get a burger and tots and drink a beer and watch a band.
So yeah, man. Those those would probably be, the haunts that we would go to. I mean but there's dude, there's there's a million of them. I mean, seriously, like, there are so many great spots to, to take people to here that, you know, you you the handsome biscuits of the world and they're like, I mean, go down the list, dude.
Have you been to dugout yet?
I haven't yet. No. I've not yet. I gotta get on that.
You know about it, though. Right?
Yes. Yep. Okay. What's your what's your take?
Hell yeah. Change your life, man. It will change your
life, man.
Alright. Get one of those apple fritters. I was there yesterday. Good. There was, like, five people in there.
I was like, oh, this is great. They all got ball baseball hats on now. I'm like, you know, I really wouldn't call this a baseball town, but, like, you know, that's
Norfolk's got that quiet, like, bakery kinda whole deal thing on lock, man. Like, La Brioche, Noss is insane. Like, there's some killer joints to to get some some little little pastry action for sure.
Your answer about, food and their like, the diversity of it is what Jarell said too, from Naramah. And it I think that was maybe the first time it had been articulated that. I think we've asked the we this this episode two fifty eight, I think we've asked that question at least for the last hundred or so episodes, last two two, three years. And so it's really interesting. I think it's spun out of, like I don't remember how it started, but, you know, the if there was a regional answer that people give, it's the Mexican white sauce.
Yeah. Yeah. Seafood as a whole.
I don't even think. Yeah.
And then the orange crush.
Yeah. Okay. I can see the orange crush. The the Waterman's orange crush. They kinda own that.
That that's for sure. I've had many of those in the day for sure.
I was there last weekend. I refused to drink those things. They are very, very dangerous.
Yeah. That's definitely Uber City.
Definitely did definitely did Uber. I went to a Murphy's. That was apparently, it wasn't that crowded, but I thought it was crowded. So I'm just getting old, like you said, Jared.
Like, it's,

(06:40):
it's what happens. We appreciate we appreciate your time. This has been a rad class.
Having me, guys. Really appreciate it. Enjoyed it.
Continued success, and, looking forward to having you on whatever February times two is. So 05/2016 to talk about where you guys are doing then.
Likewise, guys. Maybe a little wrestling too. You know? Never know.
Alright. Guys. Thanks, man.
Take it easy. Bye bye. Peace.