February 13, 2024 • 32 mins
Embrace the future of finance and dive into an insightful discussion with Wei Li, Global Chief Investment Strategist at Blackrock, and Martina Cheung, President at S&P Global Ratings. Together, they dissect the 2024 market landscape, offering expert perspectives on emerging trends, AI integration, and leadership insights.
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome.
My name is Joe Cass.
I'm a senior director here at S&P Global Ratings and a host and
the creator of the F515 podcast.
So on this episode, we have Wei Li,Global Chief Investment Strategist
at BlackRock and Martina Cheung,President of S& P Global Ratings.
Very quick reminder that the viewsof the external guests are their
views alone and they do not representthe views of S& P Global Ratings.
(00:23):
So wait, I think a good place tostart would be around general outlook.
So what is BlackRock's 2020 floormarket outlook with perhaps a
couple of words on private marketsand infrastructure as well.
Absolutely.
Thank you again for having me.
This is a very interesting year becausewe started the year after the Christmas
(00:44):
rally into the year end and peopleare feeling quite constructive looking
ahead to this year, which is in sharpcontrast to the beginning of last year.
So what do we think that isgoing to happen for 2024?
I will start with Marco and I willmake some comments about, market.
(01:04):
It's implication and privatemarkets in particular.
So in terms of macro, actually, it'sgoing to be quite a journey, in that we're
going to see inflation continuing to fall.
in fact, with goods deflation,that is, still weighing down
on broader, inflation prints.
We actually think that alonecould carry inflation in the U.
(01:28):
S.
to 2%, which is the target of thecentral bank by the end of this year.
So inflation will fall.
And we could actually avoid a recessionas that happens, because what we
are experiencing right now is reallynormalizing, adjusting from the pandemic
hole that has been created and nothingwas blind before, nothing needs to land,
(01:51):
and we actually can just get through interms of the growth front, and that's,
And still avoid a, a deep recession.
That's our expectation.
And also 2024 is going to be a year ofrate cuts, which is a wonderful change.
This is last year.
This is the year before veryaggressive, very high campaign.
(02:14):
Fastest rate hike cycles sincethe 80s by the Fed, for example.
So these are the kind of the three thingsthat inflation falls, growth avoids
a recession and rate cuts starting.
They all sound quite good, but there arethree caveats that I want to add to this
three characterization of this year.
So inflation falls.
But we actually think that it wouldthen rebound because of structural
(02:35):
labor shortage and supply constraint.
in the U.
S., we see inflation stabilizingafter 40 to 2%, closer to 3
percent over the median term.
Now, growth is, we don't needto have a recession to bring
growth, to bring inflation down,so we can avoid a recession.
(02:56):
But, the bigger pictureis that, growth trends.
Is lower, in this new regimecompared to the old regime again,
because of some of the supplyconstraints that we're talking about.
for example, in the US, agent corporationcan support a monthly, job creation
(03:17):
pace of 70, 000, which is way lower thanthe trend that we have been on so far.
Now, on the rate cut front,rate cuts indeed are exciting.
and markets have been energized bythat, but we don't think that we're
going to get as early or as manyrate cuts as priced in by markets.
(03:37):
at some point, end of last year, marketswere looking at six cuts, by the Fed.
Now, it has, dialed that back, but still,we're, we, think that markets are still
applying a bit of a old, playbook when itcomes to how much central banks can cut
rate to come to the rescue of the economy,which is why they're There is that caveat
(03:57):
in terms of, yes, rate cuts are coming,but maybe not as many as you may hope for.
So this is a quite a nuanced, environment.
So what does that mean for risk taking?
So for now, given the Fed pivotthat we saw in December, essentially
green lighting markets embracing thisimmaculate disinflation narrative,
we think that momentum can run.
(04:19):
Momentum can run.
There is a lot of formal out there.
Investors are putting cash to work andearnings are still doing reasonably well.
So momentum of this, this immaculatedisinflationary narrative can still run.
But at some point, there will be, awake up call to the fact that inflation
(04:42):
goes down, but it's not going to staydown, and it could go through a roller
coaster of a pattern, but that wakeup call may not come anytime soon
because macro evidence that wouldpoint to inflation Roller coaster may
not be clear until later second halfof this year, which is why currently
we're still reasonably constructivearound this momentum, over the U.
(05:05):
S.
Equity market and broad risk sentiment.
But at some point, we look to bevery nimble and dynamic, and we could
now that back down now in terms ofprivate market infrastructure, it's an
area that we are very excited about.
one could say that raterepricing having more.
To be through to private market, ittakes longer to mark to market just
(05:28):
by virtual of the market itself.
But there are mega forces that actuallysupports, create this structural
demand for parts of the asset classes.
you think about low carbontransition, the demand for
infrastructure, you think about.
future of finance, the need forprivate players to play a bigger role
(05:51):
as banks withdraw from this space.
What does that mean for direct lending?
What does that mean for private credit?
So we're very excited about thismarket on a selective basis.
Fantastic.
Thanks.
Martina, from a ratings perspective,what trends did we see in 2023, and
what trends might, may we see in 2024?
(06:13):
Yeah, thanks Joe.
Great comments, Wei.
I'm so pleased to, to be on this, issueor this particular podcast with you.
we'd say for 2023, it played out, broadlyfrom a credit performance standpoint
as we expected, so we saw stresses,continue in the system, more in the
spec grade, side of the house than,the investment grade side of the house.
(06:38):
but the common themes there for2023, of course, were interest rates
and, macroeconomic uncertainty froma credit, performance standpoint.
Now, while we saw overall, netdowngrades, in, in all the,
the issuance that we track.
I would say it varies by sector.
(06:58):
So some of the sectors that,experienced, more stress, for example,
consumer discretionary was one,and then some of the sectors that
tend to be a bit more sensitive tointerest rates, such as real estate.
And in aggregate, the U.
S.
had the highest rate of downgrades,but that is really also a reflection
of the composition of, the U.
S.
(07:19):
bond market, which is ahigher representation of
spec grade, issuers overall.
So going into 24, Joe, wewould see continuation of
some of these credit stresses.
we are expecting on a trail in 12month basis defaults, for example,
in the U S by September would hit 5%.
and by September trading 12 monthdefaults for Europe would be around the 3.
(07:41):
75 percent range.
again, tends to be similar,sector by sector, as well as
in the U S where we would see.
More downgrade potential, for example,in the B minus category, what we see
is continued threat trends and themesgoing into 24, rates, of course, but
also the increased uncertainty andvolatility, it's not just about, the
(08:06):
macro fundamentals, but we also havealmost half the world's population voting
in elections, this year and, and thethreat of escalation in the Middle East.
continued stress as we, go into24, that's the expectation for,
our analysts, but with a more ofa focus on the speculative grade.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, be interested to know what your viewis of AI and also how are you personally
(08:31):
using AI within your position as chiefinvestment strategist at BlackRock?
I have a lot of thoughts aboutAI, but before I go there, just
picking up from what Martina said,like 5 percent of default and 3.
5%, those are not.
Terrible numbers.
It's 5%.
It's not 15%.
it's not the sort of levels that wego to during global financial crisis.
(08:51):
So when people are saying, credit isdoing so well, a wave of default is
coming given the refinancing needs.
this is not your typical kind of cycleand we're not expecting as, traumatic in
terms of repricing for credit as we wouldhave expected in the past modeling from
(09:12):
more traumatic kind of growth environment.
which is why we still think thatthere is income, opportunities in
credit, but moving on to, To AI.
Where do I start?
AI is a key megaforce that we have beenoverweight for most part of, last year
that we continue to have for this year.
(09:33):
I was in doubles, recently and whatreally struck me is not so much about
the technology revolution itself,but around the, the day to day.
Interplay between the tech piece aswell as the other sectors, right?
So I was, put on thispanel talking about A.
(09:54):
I investing and thenother panelists are there.
There was a professional gamer.
There was a doctor.
There was a data scientist.
I'm like, none of you knowabout investing, listen to me.
And but then actually the reverse is true.
They knew a lot more about a I.
application investing than me as ageneralist could bring to the table.
(10:15):
So I actually walked away from theexperience thinking that the era of
generalist investing when it comesto this very specialized themes is
over and it really does take deepexpertise to be able to tell a company
a project that is a value of treatiesfrom Companies that just talk about a
(10:36):
I in their pitches in their earningscalls, which is basically everybody.
I walked away feeling energizedthat yes, the 1st wave of a I is,
is, it may have already washed.
Over us thinking about a very goodperformance of a magnificent seven
last year, by the way, their valuationis not that stretched if you compare
(10:59):
to the levels at the beginning of2022 and at the beginning of 2020.
But we, I also feel very energizedin terms of maybe the next wave
of AI is really around the inter.
Play intersection between and othersectors think about healthcare, rare
disease diagnosis, drug rediscovery,the opportunities are endless.
(11:20):
But now, just to conclude with,you talk about, I talked about.
It, it takes deep expertise to properlyhave, selective insights, in this space.
Just to illustrate how shallowmy expertise on this, on this is
in terms of, how I'm using ai.
Of course I have Chad, GPT, Iuse it to summarize reports.
(11:41):
it's, in a World Garden type of setup.
and, we are implementing copilot,now, and I'm expecting that
to be even more impactful.
And I also use it to write, Towrite, emails and text messages.
I described, to JGPT, the situation.
And then he writes the email because,he seems to be a more, personable
(12:06):
and sociable being than me, and hewrites better messages and emails,
and I, as we use that a lot.
that's the extent of my . Oh, the lastthing I would say about AI is, that,
Brings more meaningful and day to daychanges to people that perhaps further.
away from this,
(12:30):
compared to me, my parentsare even more, further removed
from the frontier of, pack.
They are using charge APD a lot.
and because they couldn't programand now, like back in the days
when they were using Siri, butcharge APD is a much better Siri.
So they are really benefiting from this.
So that's what I meant by thenext wave of AI may not require
(12:51):
meaningful tech revolution.
This evolution is already goingto have significant impacts
to the rest of the economy.
Fantastic.
Thanks Wade.
Martina, you are meeting investors,issuers, and generally senior figures
in the market on a very regular basis.
What's the, move music of thesediscussions and has AI been.
(13:13):
As Wai said, a dominant topic recently.
Well,
certainly the continued themes thatwe hear about, and I think this
started, in the past couple of yearsas plighting continues to be an
important theme, particularly withsome of the recent challenges, in the
Middle East, for example, we hear a lotabout cyber risk and, sustainability.
(13:34):
private markets, and emergingmarkets has become an increasing
topic of conversation as well.
for generative AI, I don't thinkit's a way where you can't get out
of any conversation without, touchingon it at least to some degree.
Our view, within our research teamis that it represents a massive
opportunity from a productivitystandpoint, which I think bodes well.
(13:55):
for growth over the medium to long term,but we also look at it, by sector and,
our team believes that there could besome very interesting opportunities
in sectors that they characterize withmaybe more flexible business models.
for example, I think way highlightedsome of these, medical devices,
education, even within banks.
And there, there could be the potentialfor new product types, products,
(14:19):
innovation and ultimately competitiveadvantage, which could be, generally
positive from, from a credit perspective.
And then for our own, generative AI,initiatives, we work very closely across
S& P Global with our AI group thatis, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's
called Kensho, and we've got some reallyinteresting work going on with, the
(14:41):
Kensho team that gets to some of the,great capabilities and possibilities from
those capabilities, such as, universalassistant to interact with our data.
and research class company.
Great.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, BlackRock have had the iSharesBitcoin Trust approved fairly
recently, and I know the future offinance, including digital currencies,
(15:02):
is one of these mega forces thatyou're tracking at BlackRock.
How do you capture this innovationin your investment views?
Joe, I think it's super interesting thatyou started the question by framing,
the future of finance as a mega force.
We have identified actually fivemega forces in our global outlook.
(15:24):
Future of finance isthe least talked about.
The other four are number one, ai,number two, aging population, number
three, geopolitical fragmentation, andnumber four, low carbon transition.
And.
Sometimes what is at least talkedabout could also be the most exciting.
So let me just give youone, personal experience.
(15:48):
So again, I was in Davos and goingto all this panel discussions and
all the other four mega forceswere talked about extensively.
Everybody has a strong opinion aboutwhat's going to happen in the Red Sea.
What's going to happen with their tech,application, but future of finance.
Transcribed Didn't get as much stageairtime as the other four megaforces,
(16:10):
but I always pay attention to thethings that are not being talked about.
And sure enough on Friday, my phone hadthis push notification to me that says
that JP Morgan was close to a 3 billionof third party commitment to private
credits and all this report about it.
So Maybe it's less talked about,but certainly things are happening
(16:33):
and this is super excitingand we want to be part of it.
Great.
Thanks Wei.
Martina, how are S& P Global Ratingsapproaching the topic of DeFi in 2024?
And what are we hearing from the market?
Yeah, just to, put it in context alittle bit, I completely agree with
Wei that we have, we're on the cuspof something really interesting
here from the standpoint of thefuture of finance and, it is.
(16:57):
private credit and some ofthe increased regulation that
has come in Basel 3, Basel 4.
But also the growth indigital assets to your point.
So this is something we've beenmonitoring for about 2 years.
We appointed a chief decentralized financeofficer 2 years ago in S& P Ratings,
and we're looking at the potential for.
(17:19):
Massive growth in tokenized assets.
So for example, by some estimates,tokenized assets could reach, or
tokenized securities specificallycould reach around 5 trillion by 2030.
to enable our companies to take a viewon risk, stability risk, et cetera,
with respect to cryptocurrencies.
For example, we launched a productin December called the, stability,
(17:43):
assessment, for, for, cryptocurrencies.
And, we've covered.
quite a few cryptocurrencies as partof that, it, I think, has put us into,
the center of dialogue, around how theasset class is developing and growing.
And we look to, consistentlyapply our independent trusted
third party opinions where we can.
(18:04):
And this is an area which I think willbecome more interesting very, quickly.
Thanks, Martina.
Wei, interesting one for you here.
What economic or investment opiniondo you believe to be true that
few others would agree with you
on?
I started this call by observing thatsentiment is more constructive this
(18:25):
year compared to this time last year.
And that is because thecurrent momentum of immaculate
disinflation has more room to run.
And that is the journey, but where thereis more divisiveness is the destination.
(18:46):
So I think we're all agreeingthat the journey with inflation
falling and central banks cuttingrates feels like a good journey.
But the destination may well not bethe one that people are familiar with.
So we're talking about the newnormal, the new regime versus the
old normal and the old regime.
So our view is that because of thesupply constrained environments
(19:09):
coming from transition, comingfrom aging population, all of those
megaforces that we just talked about,actually we're heading towards a
destination that is characterizedby structurally higher inflation.
Higher rate as a result of that,and also lower trend growth.
Markets can only focuson one thing at a time.
So right now it's focusing onthe journey, not the destination.
(19:30):
But I do think that at some pointthere will be a wake up moment.
And I think that's what divides opinionsthe most, because many are still assuming
that we're going back to the old normal.
Thanks, Wei.
Martina, moving to emerging markets.
As the investable universe grows forinvestors, Will the potential demand for
(19:52):
credit ratings in new markets also grow?
And what's your kind ofgeneral thinking on that topic?
Yeah.
this is a theme that comes up sofrequently, Joe, and, one of the reasons
why in fact is, something that Waynementioned, which is, aging demographic.
we see the opposite trend, forexample, when we look at, emerging
(20:12):
markets and expectations are thatemerging markets will provide.
The majority of, the workforce globallyby 2030, similarly today, emerging
markets are at 40 percent of GDP.
The expectation is that couldbe above 60 percent by 2030.
So a lot of really importantreasons to look at emerging markets.
We think about the capital marketsand the loan markets, in some of these
(20:36):
economies In new and different ways, Iwould say, a lot of this, depends and
the pace at which these markets developdepend on things like foreign direct
investment, but also the extent to whichthere is a thriving local market with the
supporting regulations and frameworks to,to grow a capital market domestically.
And a lot of the emergingmarkets are at different rates
(20:57):
of maturity, in that journey.
so our view is we lookat each one individually.
And we don't apply a one size fits allapproach to, let's say offering, credit
ratings in a particular domestic market.
we also have to take into consideration,the wide variety of regulatory
requirements that are growing, to, tobe able to play a role in these markets.
(21:21):
so one by one, I would say, there'sdefinitely, a lot of interesting
markets, out there and, we will continueto explore additional opportunities.
Fantastic.
Thanks, Martina.
Thank you.
Wait.
Similarly for you, what's your approachand maybe your view of what could
happen in emerging markets in 2024?
(21:42):
I will start by saying actuallyemerging markets, a very different
within the broad banner of emergingmarkets and increasingly clients are
coming to us and asking for, okay,what do you think about emerging market
X, Asia X, China, what do you thinkabout Latin America in particular?
What do you think about India?
And of course, what doyou think about China?
(22:03):
So it's hard to paint with abroad brush of emerging market.
Okay.
Now, having said that, I'm goingto try to do exactly that, because
there are some common macro themesthat do impact emerging markets, in
a similar, in the same direction.
first is, the, rate cutenvironment and the dollar, right?
(22:25):
emerging markets have been, positioned.
To perform for a while because theirown central banks are further ahead in
the rate hike cycle to the extent thatthey started cutting rates sooner than
their developed market counterparts.
But because the Fed didn't pivotyet, emerging markets didn't dare
to outperform, but after the pivotsand essentially the Fed green
(22:46):
lighting, the, immaculate disinflationnarrative emerging markets.
Could finally starts to embrace the solidfundamentals to start outperforming.
So actually, as we look ahead to therest of this year, thinking about
where the Fed is heading towards therate card environment, thinking about
potentially a softer dollar becauseof that, and thinking about emerging
(23:09):
markets, their own central bank ratehike cycle, and the fact that they are
more geared to global growth dynamics.
And we're not expecting a deeprecession, bringing all of that
together, emerging markets.
Could perform, but I wouldactually want to be more
selective within emerging markets.
So thinking about how some of themega forces be digitalization,
(23:32):
geopolitical fragmentation and agingpopulation could position likes
of India and Mexico differentlyfrom the rest of emerging markets.
That's how we want to thinkabout being selective.
Thanks,
Wei.
Wei, at the time of recording, You'vegot nearly 120, 000 LinkedIn followers.
So why do you like the platform?
(23:53):
And what kind of content do youpost to rack up so many followers?
It's funny.
I, I stumbled into it because Irealized after I took my role.
every time I do a big global,investment call, our clients
would follow me on LinkedIn.
every, call I have 500 people,following me and they are our clients.
(24:16):
So I travel all across the world.
And I see clients on a regular basis, but,seeing that I have to travel everywhere,
I don't see everyone frequently enough.
And I thought, you know what, ifI take ownership of this platform
and where clients are engaging withme, this is a good way to update
our clients and audience withour latest investment thoughts.
(24:36):
So that's how I got started in termsof the, content, I think just, Reliable
quality content over some of the maybemore fancy and eyeball catching type of
content is the way, is the way to go.
And I also love it because Iactually get good ideas from it.
like I post something, if it's verysilly, it gets violent pushback.
(24:59):
And then there are some good argumentsthat I, that, take away and look into.
And if it is good, that's, always nice.
But, but I, see this as a twoway journey and it's been a very.
A rewarding journey to engage withmore, audience, clients, investors than
I otherwise could ever do physically.
(25:20):
Great, stuff.
Thanks Wei.
Martina, how would youcategorize your leadership style?
And how do you look to getthe best out of your teams?
I
would say, investing in teams andin people is such an incredibly
important part and true.
We are at S& P Global.
we put people at the top of our agenda.
along with the culture that enablesthem to be the most successful.
(25:41):
So we highlight things likeexcellence and integrity, and respect.
but we also highlight, characteristics inour culture like innovation and discovery.
So it's really about trying tomaximize our people's potential.
And that's incredibly important in, inS& P Global across our organization.
for me, I, very much like towork with fantastic leaders.
(26:04):
And, what I focus on is.
I'm fortunate to havewonderful people in my teams.
What I focus on is not so muchhaving a team of all stars and
more having an all star team.
I think that's really a recipe forsuccess, and enabling a team to bring
really diverse ideas in a way thatunifies us and gives us the best outcomes.
(26:25):
Great.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, for any young professionals watchingwho are looking to succeed in the world
of asset management, what advice wouldyou offer based on your own experiences?
But I love Martina's pointabout the all star team made up
of not necessarily all stars.
I think this is a, thisis the first full talk.
in terms of my advice,I, have maybe, a couple.
(26:51):
Okay.
Let me start, with one, whichwas the advice that I was given
when I first started working,which is to be replaceable.
And when I heard this frommy senior trader, I'm like,
you mean to be irreplaceable.
No, he said, be replaceable andyou will, understand what I mean.
So through the course of all ofmy career, I have been very open,
(27:13):
always very collaborative, open bookwhen I go on holiday, when I rotate,
there is always good coverage.
Nothing goes wrong when I, leave andI've always been very, replaceable.
And what I don't find out is that whenopportunities come up, and you're good.
And you are replaceable people aregoing to want to take you out of your
(27:36):
old seat and put you in a new seatwith greater opportunity with greater
responsibility, which is essentiallywhat happens with my current seat.
My pile, my predecessor was calledto join the White House and, my,
sponsors looked across the whole firm.
They're like, okay, we can do this job,but would her team break down if we take
(27:59):
her out of, The old seat into the new seatand no, actually, just spread replaceable.
And here I am.
I think being replaceable is asuper, Important and maybe even
a little bit counterintuitiveadvice that I've always stuck to.
And it's just me as a as, as works for me.
and then 1 comment, another, I wouldsay advise, but, it's important in my
(28:25):
specific, case, because, obviously I.
I am a Asian woman, and a bitshy, maybe it's not clear on the
webcast, but I am an introvert.
so as I think about how do I growmy career, and also English is
not my native language, right?
So I'm actually not very comfortablespeaking English and no public speaking.
(28:49):
At some point, I switched the mindsetand wanted is that to think about
how do I play my characteristics.
To my advantage rather than thinkingthat oh, I don't speak very good English.
Maybe that's a bad thing So in my mind,I didn't start telling myself if I say
something stupid people are going tothink oh, you know She meant something
(29:11):
smart, but it because her English is notso good So that's why it comes across not
so great But if I say something smart,they will think that it's because I'm very
smart So in a way my English is almostlike my get out of jail free card And I'm
going to come out good, no matter what.
So once I start switching themindset, then as a, woman in this,
(29:34):
I would say still male dominatedindustry, I feel very comfortable.
and I feel very comfortable being myself.
And I think that mindset change,depending on who you are, of course,
like how to play the quirkiness,your personal characteristics to your
advantage, I think that's super powerful.
(29:54):
Fantastic.
That's great advice.
Thanks so much Wei.
Martina, are there any individualsfrom the world of finance and also
beyond who you always make a pointto stop and listen to or to read?
I do want to say I, I was beaming earto ear just listening to you there,
Wei, and I really hope that, a lotof the women that I, know very well
(30:15):
in S& P Global hear this podcast.
and, I thought those commentswere really inspiring.
Thank you for sharing that.
as it relates to people that I stop andlisten to, Joe, I think you've had a
lot of them on this podcast, startingwith Wei, David Rubenstein, Manny Roman.
Ray Dalio, Mohamed Alaryan,and the list goes on and on.
(30:35):
I think it's a, an impressive, tour hereof, the who's who, and who, you should
really be stopping and listening to.
I'll give two more names.
one is Paul Bregmold, ourChief Economist at S& P Global.
I think his insights are tremendous.
And, a favorite of Paul and mineis, Ian Bremner at, Eurasia, who,
each of us, listen to and follow as
(30:57):
well.
Great stuff.
Thanks, Martina.
Wei, the last question ofthis podcast goes to you.
So typically I'll interview leaders andinfluential individuals from the world
of finance like yourself on this podcast.
Thinking about everyone you've met,or worked with, who would be the most
interesting potential guests I should askto join a future episode of this show?
(31:21):
I'm going to be very biased, but I amgoing to say, Steve Cohen, who is now
taking on a new responsibility to buildout the global product solution group
within BlackRock, this is really gamechanging, is bringing together various
functions, portfolio, consulting,investment strategy in the different
(31:41):
product segments together to bringthe best of BlackRock to clients.
And I think, he's formulating his visionas we Speed and I personally can't
wait to hear from him and I think thebroader audience would benefit as well.
But before I hand you back themic, I, it means a lot, Martina,
for you to say what you just said.
I always speak my mind and tohear your, response means a lot.
(32:04):
So thank you.
Fantastic.
thank you so much to Wei and Martina,both of you today for your time,
for everyone watching and listening.
Thanks for joining and see younext time on Fixed Income M15.
Hello and welcome.
My name is Joe Cass.
I'm a senior director here at S&P Global Ratings and a host and
the creator of the F515 podcast.
So on this episode, we have Wei Li,Global Chief Investment Strategist
at BlackRock and Martina Cheung,President of S& P Global Ratings.
Very quick reminder that the viewsof the external guests are their
views alone and they do not representthe views of S& P Global Ratings.
(00:23):
So wait, I think a good place tostart would be around general outlook.
So what is BlackRock's 2020 floormarket outlook with perhaps a
couple of words on private marketsand infrastructure as well.
Absolutely.
Thank you again for having me.
This is a very interesting year becausewe started the year after the Christmas
(00:44):
rally into the year end and peopleare feeling quite constructive looking
ahead to this year, which is in sharpcontrast to the beginning of last year.
So what do we think that isgoing to happen for 2024?
I will start with Marco and I willmake some comments about, market.
(01:04):
It's implication and privatemarkets in particular.
So in terms of macro, actually, it'sgoing to be quite a journey, in that we're
going to see inflation continuing to fall.
in fact, with goods deflation,that is, still weighing down
on broader, inflation prints.
We actually think that alonecould carry inflation in the U.
(01:28):
S.
to 2%, which is the target of thecentral bank by the end of this year.
So inflation will fall.
And we could actually avoid a recessionas that happens, because what we
are experiencing right now is reallynormalizing, adjusting from the pandemic
hole that has been created and nothingwas blind before, nothing needs to land,
(01:51):
and we actually can just get through interms of the growth front, and that's,
And still avoid a, a deep recession.
That's our expectation.
And also 2024 is going to be a year ofrate cuts, which is a wonderful change.
This is last year.
This is the year before veryaggressive, very high campaign.
(02:14):
Fastest rate hike cycles sincethe 80s by the Fed, for example.
So these are the kind of the three thingsthat inflation falls, growth avoids
a recession and rate cuts starting.
They all sound quite good, but there arethree caveats that I want to add to this
three characterization of this year.
So inflation falls.
But we actually think that it wouldthen rebound because of structural
(02:35):
labor shortage and supply constraint.
in the U.
S., we see inflation stabilizingafter 40 to 2%, closer to 3
percent over the median term.
Now, growth is, we don't needto have a recession to bring
growth, to bring inflation down,so we can avoid a recession.
(02:56):
But, the bigger pictureis that, growth trends.
Is lower, in this new regimecompared to the old regime again,
because of some of the supplyconstraints that we're talking about.
for example, in the US, agent corporationcan support a monthly, job creation
(03:17):
pace of 70, 000, which is way lower thanthe trend that we have been on so far.
Now, on the rate cut front,rate cuts indeed are exciting.
and markets have been energized bythat, but we don't think that we're
going to get as early or as manyrate cuts as priced in by markets.
(03:37):
at some point, end of last year, marketswere looking at six cuts, by the Fed.
Now, it has, dialed that back, but still,we're, we, think that markets are still
applying a bit of a old, playbook when itcomes to how much central banks can cut
rate to come to the rescue of the economy,which is why they're There is that caveat
(03:57):
in terms of, yes, rate cuts are coming,but maybe not as many as you may hope for.
So this is a quite a nuanced, environment.
So what does that mean for risk taking?
So for now, given the Fed pivotthat we saw in December, essentially
green lighting markets embracing thisimmaculate disinflation narrative,
we think that momentum can run.
(04:19):
Momentum can run.
There is a lot of formal out there.
Investors are putting cash to work andearnings are still doing reasonably well.
So momentum of this, this immaculatedisinflationary narrative can still run.
But at some point, there will be, awake up call to the fact that inflation
(04:42):
goes down, but it's not going to staydown, and it could go through a roller
coaster of a pattern, but that wakeup call may not come anytime soon
because macro evidence that wouldpoint to inflation Roller coaster may
not be clear until later second halfof this year, which is why currently
we're still reasonably constructivearound this momentum, over the U.
(05:05):
S.
Equity market and broad risk sentiment.
But at some point, we look to bevery nimble and dynamic, and we could
now that back down now in terms ofprivate market infrastructure, it's an
area that we are very excited about.
one could say that raterepricing having more.
To be through to private market, ittakes longer to mark to market just
(05:28):
by virtual of the market itself.
But there are mega forces that actuallysupports, create this structural
demand for parts of the asset classes.
you think about low carbontransition, the demand for
infrastructure, you think about.
future of finance, the need forprivate players to play a bigger role
(05:51):
as banks withdraw from this space.
What does that mean for direct lending?
What does that mean for private credit?
So we're very excited about thismarket on a selective basis.
Fantastic.
Thanks.
Martina, from a ratings perspective,what trends did we see in 2023, and
what trends might, may we see in 2024?
(06:13):
Yeah, thanks Joe.
Great comments, Wei.
I'm so pleased to, to be on this, issueor this particular podcast with you.
we'd say for 2023, it played out, broadlyfrom a credit performance standpoint
as we expected, so we saw stresses,continue in the system, more in the
spec grade, side of the house than,the investment grade side of the house.
(06:38):
but the common themes there for2023, of course, were interest rates
and, macroeconomic uncertainty froma credit, performance standpoint.
Now, while we saw overall, netdowngrades, in, in all the,
the issuance that we track.
I would say it varies by sector.
(06:58):
So some of the sectors that,experienced, more stress, for example,
consumer discretionary was one,and then some of the sectors that
tend to be a bit more sensitive tointerest rates, such as real estate.
And in aggregate, the U.
S.
had the highest rate of downgrades,but that is really also a reflection
of the composition of, the U.
S.
(07:19):
bond market, which is ahigher representation of
spec grade, issuers overall.
So going into 24, Joe, wewould see continuation of
some of these credit stresses.
we are expecting on a trail in 12month basis defaults, for example,
in the U S by September would hit 5%.
and by September trading 12 monthdefaults for Europe would be around the 3.
(07:41):
75 percent range.
again, tends to be similar,sector by sector, as well as
in the U S where we would see.
More downgrade potential, for example,in the B minus category, what we see
is continued threat trends and themesgoing into 24, rates, of course, but
also the increased uncertainty andvolatility, it's not just about, the
(08:06):
macro fundamentals, but we also havealmost half the world's population voting
in elections, this year and, and thethreat of escalation in the Middle East.
continued stress as we, go into24, that's the expectation for,
our analysts, but with a more ofa focus on the speculative grade.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, be interested to know what your viewis of AI and also how are you personally
(08:31):
using AI within your position as chiefinvestment strategist at BlackRock?
I have a lot of thoughts aboutAI, but before I go there, just
picking up from what Martina said,like 5 percent of default and 3.
5%, those are not.
Terrible numbers.
It's 5%.
It's not 15%.
it's not the sort of levels that wego to during global financial crisis.
(08:51):
So when people are saying, credit isdoing so well, a wave of default is
coming given the refinancing needs.
this is not your typical kind of cycleand we're not expecting as, traumatic in
terms of repricing for credit as we wouldhave expected in the past modeling from
(09:12):
more traumatic kind of growth environment.
which is why we still think thatthere is income, opportunities in
credit, but moving on to, To AI.
Where do I start?
AI is a key megaforce that we have beenoverweight for most part of, last year
that we continue to have for this year.
(09:33):
I was in doubles, recently and whatreally struck me is not so much about
the technology revolution itself,but around the, the day to day.
Interplay between the tech piece aswell as the other sectors, right?
So I was, put on thispanel talking about A.
(09:54):
I investing and thenother panelists are there.
There was a professional gamer.
There was a doctor.
There was a data scientist.
I'm like, none of you knowabout investing, listen to me.
And but then actually the reverse is true.
They knew a lot more about a I.
application investing than me as ageneralist could bring to the table.
(10:15):
So I actually walked away from theexperience thinking that the era of
generalist investing when it comesto this very specialized themes is
over and it really does take deepexpertise to be able to tell a company
a project that is a value of treatiesfrom Companies that just talk about a
(10:36):
I in their pitches in their earningscalls, which is basically everybody.
I walked away feeling energizedthat yes, the 1st wave of a I is,
is, it may have already washed.
Over us thinking about a very goodperformance of a magnificent seven
last year, by the way, their valuationis not that stretched if you compare
(10:59):
to the levels at the beginning of2022 and at the beginning of 2020.
But we, I also feel very energizedin terms of maybe the next wave
of AI is really around the inter.
Play intersection between and othersectors think about healthcare, rare
disease diagnosis, drug rediscovery,the opportunities are endless.
(11:20):
But now, just to conclude with,you talk about, I talked about.
It, it takes deep expertise to properlyhave, selective insights, in this space.
Just to illustrate how shallowmy expertise on this, on this is
in terms of, how I'm using ai.
Of course I have Chad, GPT, Iuse it to summarize reports.
(11:41):
it's, in a World Garden type of setup.
and, we are implementing copilot,now, and I'm expecting that
to be even more impactful.
And I also use it to write, Towrite, emails and text messages.
I described, to JGPT, the situation.
And then he writes the email because,he seems to be a more, personable
(12:06):
and sociable being than me, and hewrites better messages and emails,
and I, as we use that a lot.
that's the extent of my . Oh, the lastthing I would say about AI is, that,
Brings more meaningful and day to daychanges to people that perhaps further.
away from this,
(12:30):
compared to me, my parentsare even more, further removed
from the frontier of, pack.
They are using charge APD a lot.
and because they couldn't programand now, like back in the days
when they were using Siri, butcharge APD is a much better Siri.
So they are really benefiting from this.
So that's what I meant by thenext wave of AI may not require
(12:51):
meaningful tech revolution.
This evolution is already goingto have significant impacts
to the rest of the economy.
Fantastic.
Thanks Wade.
Martina, you are meeting investors,issuers, and generally senior figures
in the market on a very regular basis.
What's the, move music of thesediscussions and has AI been.
(13:13):
As Wai said, a dominant topic recently.
Well,
certainly the continued themes thatwe hear about, and I think this
started, in the past couple of yearsas plighting continues to be an
important theme, particularly withsome of the recent challenges, in the
Middle East, for example, we hear a lotabout cyber risk and, sustainability.
(13:34):
private markets, and emergingmarkets has become an increasing
topic of conversation as well.
for generative AI, I don't thinkit's a way where you can't get out
of any conversation without, touchingon it at least to some degree.
Our view, within our research teamis that it represents a massive
opportunity from a productivitystandpoint, which I think bodes well.
(13:55):
for growth over the medium to long term,but we also look at it, by sector and,
our team believes that there could besome very interesting opportunities
in sectors that they characterize withmaybe more flexible business models.
for example, I think way highlightedsome of these, medical devices,
education, even within banks.
And there, there could be the potentialfor new product types, products,
(14:19):
innovation and ultimately competitiveadvantage, which could be, generally
positive from, from a credit perspective.
And then for our own, generative AI,initiatives, we work very closely across
S& P Global with our AI group thatis, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, it's
called Kensho, and we've got some reallyinteresting work going on with, the
(14:41):
Kensho team that gets to some of the,great capabilities and possibilities from
those capabilities, such as, universalassistant to interact with our data.
and research class company.
Great.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, BlackRock have had the iSharesBitcoin Trust approved fairly
recently, and I know the future offinance, including digital currencies,
(15:02):
is one of these mega forces thatyou're tracking at BlackRock.
How do you capture this innovationin your investment views?
Joe, I think it's super interesting thatyou started the question by framing,
the future of finance as a mega force.
We have identified actually fivemega forces in our global outlook.
(15:24):
Future of finance isthe least talked about.
The other four are number one, ai,number two, aging population, number
three, geopolitical fragmentation, andnumber four, low carbon transition.
And.
Sometimes what is at least talkedabout could also be the most exciting.
So let me just give youone, personal experience.
(15:48):
So again, I was in Davos and goingto all this panel discussions and
all the other four mega forceswere talked about extensively.
Everybody has a strong opinion aboutwhat's going to happen in the Red Sea.
What's going to happen with their tech,application, but future of finance.
Transcribed Didn't get as much stageairtime as the other four megaforces,
(16:10):
but I always pay attention to thethings that are not being talked about.
And sure enough on Friday, my phone hadthis push notification to me that says
that JP Morgan was close to a 3 billionof third party commitment to private
credits and all this report about it.
So Maybe it's less talked about,but certainly things are happening
(16:33):
and this is super excitingand we want to be part of it.
Great.
Thanks Wei.
Martina, how are S& P Global Ratingsapproaching the topic of DeFi in 2024?
And what are we hearing from the market?
Yeah, just to, put it in context alittle bit, I completely agree with
Wei that we have, we're on the cuspof something really interesting
here from the standpoint of thefuture of finance and, it is.
(16:57):
private credit and some ofthe increased regulation that
has come in Basel 3, Basel 4.
But also the growth indigital assets to your point.
So this is something we've beenmonitoring for about 2 years.
We appointed a chief decentralized financeofficer 2 years ago in S& P Ratings,
and we're looking at the potential for.
(17:19):
Massive growth in tokenized assets.
So for example, by some estimates,tokenized assets could reach, or
tokenized securities specificallycould reach around 5 trillion by 2030.
to enable our companies to take a viewon risk, stability risk, et cetera,
with respect to cryptocurrencies.
For example, we launched a productin December called the, stability,
(17:43):
assessment, for, for, cryptocurrencies.
And, we've covered.
quite a few cryptocurrencies as partof that, it, I think, has put us into,
the center of dialogue, around how theasset class is developing and growing.
And we look to, consistentlyapply our independent trusted
third party opinions where we can.
(18:04):
And this is an area which I think willbecome more interesting very, quickly.
Thanks, Martina.
Wei, interesting one for you here.
What economic or investment opiniondo you believe to be true that
few others would agree with you
on?
I started this call by observing thatsentiment is more constructive this
(18:25):
year compared to this time last year.
And that is because thecurrent momentum of immaculate
disinflation has more room to run.
And that is the journey, but where thereis more divisiveness is the destination.
(18:46):
So I think we're all agreeingthat the journey with inflation
falling and central banks cuttingrates feels like a good journey.
But the destination may well not bethe one that people are familiar with.
So we're talking about the newnormal, the new regime versus the
old normal and the old regime.
So our view is that because of thesupply constrained environments
(19:09):
coming from transition, comingfrom aging population, all of those
megaforces that we just talked about,actually we're heading towards a
destination that is characterizedby structurally higher inflation.
Higher rate as a result of that,and also lower trend growth.
Markets can only focuson one thing at a time.
So right now it's focusing onthe journey, not the destination.
(19:30):
But I do think that at some pointthere will be a wake up moment.
And I think that's what divides opinionsthe most, because many are still assuming
that we're going back to the old normal.
Thanks, Wei.
Martina, moving to emerging markets.
As the investable universe grows forinvestors, Will the potential demand for
(19:52):
credit ratings in new markets also grow?
And what's your kind ofgeneral thinking on that topic?
Yeah.
this is a theme that comes up sofrequently, Joe, and, one of the reasons
why in fact is, something that Waynementioned, which is, aging demographic.
we see the opposite trend, forexample, when we look at, emerging
(20:12):
markets and expectations are thatemerging markets will provide.
The majority of, the workforce globallyby 2030, similarly today, emerging
markets are at 40 percent of GDP.
The expectation is that couldbe above 60 percent by 2030.
So a lot of really importantreasons to look at emerging markets.
We think about the capital marketsand the loan markets, in some of these
(20:36):
economies In new and different ways, Iwould say, a lot of this, depends and
the pace at which these markets developdepend on things like foreign direct
investment, but also the extent to whichthere is a thriving local market with the
supporting regulations and frameworks to,to grow a capital market domestically.
And a lot of the emergingmarkets are at different rates
(20:57):
of maturity, in that journey.
so our view is we lookat each one individually.
And we don't apply a one size fits allapproach to, let's say offering, credit
ratings in a particular domestic market.
we also have to take into consideration,the wide variety of regulatory
requirements that are growing, to, tobe able to play a role in these markets.
(21:21):
so one by one, I would say, there'sdefinitely, a lot of interesting
markets, out there and, we will continueto explore additional opportunities.
Fantastic.
Thanks, Martina.
Thank you.
Wait.
Similarly for you, what's your approachand maybe your view of what could
happen in emerging markets in 2024?
(21:42):
I will start by saying actuallyemerging markets, a very different
within the broad banner of emergingmarkets and increasingly clients are
coming to us and asking for, okay,what do you think about emerging market
X, Asia X, China, what do you thinkabout Latin America in particular?
What do you think about India?
And of course, what doyou think about China?
(22:03):
So it's hard to paint with abroad brush of emerging market.
Okay.
Now, having said that, I'm goingto try to do exactly that, because
there are some common macro themesthat do impact emerging markets, in
a similar, in the same direction.
first is, the, rate cutenvironment and the dollar, right?
(22:25):
emerging markets have been, positioned.
To perform for a while because theirown central banks are further ahead in
the rate hike cycle to the extent thatthey started cutting rates sooner than
their developed market counterparts.
But because the Fed didn't pivotyet, emerging markets didn't dare
to outperform, but after the pivotsand essentially the Fed green
(22:46):
lighting, the, immaculate disinflationnarrative emerging markets.
Could finally starts to embrace the solidfundamentals to start outperforming.
So actually, as we look ahead to therest of this year, thinking about
where the Fed is heading towards therate card environment, thinking about
potentially a softer dollar becauseof that, and thinking about emerging
(23:09):
markets, their own central bank ratehike cycle, and the fact that they are
more geared to global growth dynamics.
And we're not expecting a deeprecession, bringing all of that
together, emerging markets.
Could perform, but I wouldactually want to be more
selective within emerging markets.
So thinking about how some of themega forces be digitalization,
(23:32):
geopolitical fragmentation and agingpopulation could position likes
of India and Mexico differentlyfrom the rest of emerging markets.
That's how we want to thinkabout being selective.
Thanks,
Wei.
Wei, at the time of recording, You'vegot nearly 120, 000 LinkedIn followers.
So why do you like the platform?
(23:53):
And what kind of content do youpost to rack up so many followers?
It's funny.
I, I stumbled into it because Irealized after I took my role.
every time I do a big global,investment call, our clients
would follow me on LinkedIn.
every, call I have 500 people,following me and they are our clients.
(24:16):
So I travel all across the world.
And I see clients on a regular basis, but,seeing that I have to travel everywhere,
I don't see everyone frequently enough.
And I thought, you know what, ifI take ownership of this platform
and where clients are engaging withme, this is a good way to update
our clients and audience withour latest investment thoughts.
(24:36):
So that's how I got started in termsof the, content, I think just, Reliable
quality content over some of the maybemore fancy and eyeball catching type of
content is the way, is the way to go.
And I also love it because Iactually get good ideas from it.
like I post something, if it's verysilly, it gets violent pushback.
(24:59):
And then there are some good argumentsthat I, that, take away and look into.
And if it is good, that's, always nice.
But, but I, see this as a twoway journey and it's been a very.
A rewarding journey to engage withmore, audience, clients, investors than
I otherwise could ever do physically.
(25:20):
Great, stuff.
Thanks Wei.
Martina, how would youcategorize your leadership style?
And how do you look to getthe best out of your teams?
I
would say, investing in teams andin people is such an incredibly
important part and true.
We are at S& P Global.
we put people at the top of our agenda.
along with the culture that enablesthem to be the most successful.
(25:41):
So we highlight things likeexcellence and integrity, and respect.
but we also highlight, characteristics inour culture like innovation and discovery.
So it's really about trying tomaximize our people's potential.
And that's incredibly important in, inS& P Global across our organization.
for me, I, very much like towork with fantastic leaders.
(26:04):
And, what I focus on is.
I'm fortunate to havewonderful people in my teams.
What I focus on is not so muchhaving a team of all stars and
more having an all star team.
I think that's really a recipe forsuccess, and enabling a team to bring
really diverse ideas in a way thatunifies us and gives us the best outcomes.
(26:25):
Great.
Thanks, Martina.
Wait, for any young professionals watchingwho are looking to succeed in the world
of asset management, what advice wouldyou offer based on your own experiences?
But I love Martina's pointabout the all star team made up
of not necessarily all stars.
I think this is a, thisis the first full talk.
in terms of my advice,I, have maybe, a couple.
(26:51):
Okay.
Let me start, with one, whichwas the advice that I was given
when I first started working,which is to be replaceable.
And when I heard this frommy senior trader, I'm like,
you mean to be irreplaceable.
No, he said, be replaceable andyou will, understand what I mean.
So through the course of all ofmy career, I have been very open,
(27:13):
always very collaborative, open bookwhen I go on holiday, when I rotate,
there is always good coverage.
Nothing goes wrong when I, leave andI've always been very, replaceable.
And what I don't find out is that whenopportunities come up, and you're good.
And you are replaceable people aregoing to want to take you out of your
(27:36):
old seat and put you in a new seatwith greater opportunity with greater
responsibility, which is essentiallywhat happens with my current seat.
My pile, my predecessor was calledto join the White House and, my,
sponsors looked across the whole firm.
They're like, okay, we can do this job,but would her team break down if we take
(27:59):
her out of, The old seat into the new seatand no, actually, just spread replaceable.
And here I am.
I think being replaceable is asuper, Important and maybe even
a little bit counterintuitiveadvice that I've always stuck to.
And it's just me as a as, as works for me.
and then 1 comment, another, I wouldsay advise, but, it's important in my
(28:25):
specific, case, because, obviously I.
I am a Asian woman, and a bitshy, maybe it's not clear on the
webcast, but I am an introvert.
so as I think about how do I growmy career, and also English is
not my native language, right?
So I'm actually not very comfortablespeaking English and no public speaking.
(28:49):
At some point, I switched the mindsetand wanted is that to think about
how do I play my characteristics.
To my advantage rather than thinkingthat oh, I don't speak very good English.
Maybe that's a bad thing So in my mind,I didn't start telling myself if I say
something stupid people are going tothink oh, you know She meant something
(29:11):
smart, but it because her English is notso good So that's why it comes across not
so great But if I say something smart,they will think that it's because I'm very
smart So in a way my English is almostlike my get out of jail free card And I'm
going to come out good, no matter what.
So once I start switching themindset, then as a, woman in this,
(29:34):
I would say still male dominatedindustry, I feel very comfortable.
and I feel very comfortable being myself.
And I think that mindset change,depending on who you are, of course,
like how to play the quirkiness,your personal characteristics to your
advantage, I think that's super powerful.
(29:54):
Fantastic.
That's great advice.
Thanks so much Wei.
Martina, are there any individualsfrom the world of finance and also
beyond who you always make a pointto stop and listen to or to read?
I do want to say I, I was beaming earto ear just listening to you there,
Wei, and I really hope that, a lotof the women that I, know very well
(30:15):
in S& P Global hear this podcast.
and, I thought those commentswere really inspiring.
Thank you for sharing that.
as it relates to people that I stop andlisten to, Joe, I think you've had a
lot of them on this podcast, startingwith Wei, David Rubenstein, Manny Roman.
Ray Dalio, Mohamed Alaryan,and the list goes on and on.
(30:35):
I think it's a, an impressive, tour hereof, the who's who, and who, you should
really be stopping and listening to.
I'll give two more names.
one is Paul Bregmold, ourChief Economist at S& P Global.
I think his insights are tremendous.
And, a favorite of Paul and mineis, Ian Bremner at, Eurasia, who,
each of us, listen to and follow as
(30:57):
well.
Great stuff.
Thanks, Martina.
Wei, the last question ofthis podcast goes to you.
So typically I'll interview leaders andinfluential individuals from the world
of finance like yourself on this podcast.
Thinking about everyone you've met,or worked with, who would be the most
interesting potential guests I should askto join a future episode of this show?
(31:21):
I'm going to be very biased, but I amgoing to say, Steve Cohen, who is now
taking on a new responsibility to buildout the global product solution group
within BlackRock, this is really gamechanging, is bringing together various
functions, portfolio, consulting,investment strategy in the different
(31:41):
product segments together to bringthe best of BlackRock to clients.
And I think, he's formulating his visionas we Speed and I personally can't
wait to hear from him and I think thebroader audience would benefit as well.
But before I hand you back themic, I, it means a lot, Martina,
for you to say what you just said.
I always speak my mind and tohear your, response means a lot.
(32:04):
So thank you.
Fantastic.
thank you so much to Wei and Martina,both of you today for your time,
for everyone watching and listening.
Thanks for joining and see younext time on Fixed Income M15.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.