'Superman II' (feat. Darin Lundberg of NostalgiaCast)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Speaker 6 (01:31):
Welcome to Franchise Detours, now a proud member of the
Odd Pods Media Network. This is the show where we
believe no movie series travels in a straight line. I'm
your host, Robert Yannis Junior, and this is episode one
oh two. As always, you can find more episodes of
this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Good Pods, and other podcasters,
as well as Crookedtable dot com. Ratings and reviews are

(01:52):
always appreciated. Today we're continuing our journey through Metropolis and
the films of the Superman had written racial Superman run
of Films. I guess I have to specify now because
we're getting so many versions talking nineteen eighties Superman two,
the theatrical version directed by Richard Lester, and we will
also be getting into the two thousand and six Richard

(02:14):
Donner cut. And I am honored to welcome Darren Lundberg.
How are you doing, sir?

Speaker 3 (02:18):
I am doing great, partner, how are you? I'm doing good?

Speaker 6 (02:22):
So tell people who haven't heard your many many appearances
on this show, including two episodes ago. Now I can
thank you in person for the lovely voicemail was very sweet.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
I appreciate that. Good. Good.

Speaker 6 (02:36):
Tell people about nostalgia cast, and if you want to
throw back to Blue in there too, I appreciate that.

Speaker 7 (02:41):
Absolutely. Let's do back to Blue first. That's the show
that you and I host. Obviously we're I know, I
really love talking about Back to Bluie. It's like from
a father's perspective and how we you know, talk, you know,
how we raise our kids and how we see these
anthromomorphic cartoon dogs and reason there. So it's always a
fun discussion with you and have fun guests, like like
I always tell you about our commer it's always great

(03:02):
sitting down and realizing new things about me, which you
have a knack for bringing that out in people. And
so again I'm gonna just blow smoke up up your
butt for that. And then also we have Nostalgia Cast.
That's my main podcast, first podcast that I run with
my best childhood friend Johnny, and we're going over right now.
We're revisiting our nineties because we grew up on nineties movies,

(03:24):
so we're visiting our kind of like a bucket list
version where we're going back and talking about nineties movies
year by year that we all have always wanted to
talk about, kind of like added to a bucket list.
And we just released our as of this recording, released
our True Romance episode first of nineteen ninety three, and
then we've got like in the Line of Fire comes
out after that, and I think Malice and then the Fugitive,

(03:45):
Well that'll be our ninety three round up. But anyway,
we're having a great time going back through all of
those things. And like I said, it's talking blue, talking
nineties movies. It's good to talk about an eighties superhero movie.

Speaker 6 (03:57):
And I think you guys covered Superman the movie on
Nostalgic Cast.

Speaker 7 (04:00):
Correct, we did. That was for our seventies plusa episode.
We had Chris Scalzo on to basically talk about that,
and yeah, so the Superman is just very indelible in
my in my life ever since I was a child,
and so obviously we talked about that. We didn't get
a chance for rely to talk about the sequels, so
this would be a good opportunity to talk about the
only only good, one, only good sequel. I guess you

(04:22):
could say.

Speaker 6 (04:23):
I mean, if we're comparing it to the other films
that were the subsequent spoilers for the rest of this
mega series, the subsequent films and this mega series, uh,
Superman three, Supergirl, Superman four, The Quest for Piece, and
Superman returns. Mm hmm, Yeah, it's gonna be It's gonna
be an interesting one, most of which I've seen. Superman

(04:43):
returns a few times over the years. I think, I
think because I keep trying to will myself into loving
it and I just can't can't get there. There are
things I do like about it, which I'll get I'll
get to when I get to that film. Uh, Supergirl,
Superman three, and Superman four, I I've seen like maybe
once or twice, and a long twenty thirty years ago

(05:05):
for some of them. So I think when I told
you that I was doing this mega series, we were like, well,
we got to get you in there somewhere, and I
think we just figured about just kind of doing the
Rocky approach because you also covered Rocky on Nostalgic Cast.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
So we were like, well Rocky too, yeah, you.

Speaker 6 (05:23):
Know, and so we're like, well, Superman too kind of
makes sense sort of carry over that franchise from Nostalgica
Cast in essence. So what was your history with these
films the refilms we have?

Speaker 7 (05:38):
So I think we've talked before, you and I and
I've talked about Nostalgic Cast on Nostalgic Cast, But how
Jaws was my lightning moment for movies. That's the movie
that introduced me to the wonder and magic of storytelling
on film and things like that, and why movies can
scare you, why movies can get you emotional, why movies
can get you invested in characters. So that was the
first movie where I was like, I got to find

(05:59):
out what these movie things. And so I started studying them,
and Steven Spielberg was the first name, celebrity name I
committed a memory because of that. Now I say that
my mom was an only child. My mom was a
single mom. I was an only child, and so she
tried to raise me the best she could by giving
me all the stuff that boys liked, so Transformers and
Godzilla and you know, James Bond, things like that, and

(06:21):
she recorded. Back in the day, they had an ABC
Sunday Night movie where they would show a special movie
on ABC and Superman they showed on a Sunday, but
they also included the seventy eight movie. They also included
these deleted scenes that Donna did include in the theatrical cut,
and so they had to spread it across two nights,
and so my mom recorded those on vhs and I

(06:43):
wore those vhs out Superman was my next lightning rod
Richard Donner was the next name I committed to memory.
And there's a shot in that first Superman where Clark
young Clark goes to you tutelage with his dad and
then you know, Joel basically says, I'm going to I
sent them you my only son. That shot where it
goes through Jorell's glass space and you see Superman on

(07:04):
a precipice and he takes off towards the camera and
chrispher reeve, I don't think he did it. They planned
on do it, or they knew he was gonna do this,
But he flies towards the camera and then he banks
it and turns to the right. And that owed me
so much. That wowed me to the point where I
was like, if movies can do that, they can do anything.
So Superman helped me believe in the magic of movies

(07:25):
and so and I think it's because of that Veris
militude that Donner tried to doing body right, like the
kind of the emotional truth. And so with Superman two.
It's funny though, because when you're a kid, you just
want to see the violence in the action. So growing
up Superman two was my favorite because you got to
see him punching people. Right nowadays, I think we've turned
that punching thing in the completely wrong direction, where certain

(07:47):
people only respect a Superman that punches other things really hard.

Speaker 6 (07:51):
It did have a little bit of a Man of
Seal flashback watching Superman two, especially the theatrical guy, and
they're like going through buildings and stuff, and I was like,
woa this familiar?

Speaker 7 (08:00):
Yeah, Well it's funny because you hear people when they
complain about Man of Steel and how they could have corrected,
like the Metropolis thing at the end, and what they
describe they should have done this, Superman should have done that.
And every time I'm like, you're describing Superman two in detail?

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Do you not know that?

Speaker 7 (08:17):
Like you already have this movie. Why do we need
to make another movie that doesn't say you know what
I mean? You can just got revisit these things. But
these days Superman, that's not what he's about. Like when
you become more of an adult, when you grow up,
it's like, oh, he embodies like the light, like the
like we talk about him back to Blue all the time,
like the aspirational figure. We want to be like him
and he's he's the guy that leads, He's the guy

(08:38):
that sets the example. And I don't think you do
that by punching things. It's not really what you want
in somebody that you follow.

Speaker 6 (08:46):
I guess I think that's been the challenge though, too
is is he's supposed to be aspirational, He's supposed to
be so powerful, and so the movie has always struggled
to will how do we humanize him to some degree?

Speaker 7 (08:58):
You know?

Speaker 6 (08:58):
And I think we talked a little bit before recording
about the new James Gun version, which I think does
a great job of like making him emotionally vulnerable, physically vulnerable.
He's still powerful, but he's not invincible. Yeah, And I
think you know, the original Donner film is so pivotal
in that it does not only make you believe a

(09:19):
man can fly, as the famous tag line goes, but
it does make him feel like a real like he
has those human qualities.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
You see where that came from.

Speaker 6 (09:29):
And we spent an hour like on his backstory before
we get to Metropolis, so like they they earn that
through that movie. And I love that you were talking
about Jaws and how because I think when people talk
about the advent of the blockbuster. And we talked about
this with our Rocky Too thing. Everybody talks about Jaws,
everybody talks about Star Wars. I think people forget Rocky

(09:50):
and people forget Superman the movie were other components right
in the middle of all of Jaws and Star Wars
and you know that like seventy five to seventy eight.
So it's we don't have any of these, not forget
about James Gunn's Superman. We don't have comic movies in
general without Superman the movie existing first. Yes, and so

(10:11):
a lot of the conversation that we talked about that
we had last episode was all about this thing created
this genre. Yeah, like it these if they did anything
with superhero characters, they were usually like animation or serials
before movies or things like that, and they were usually

(10:33):
some degree of silly. Yeah they were, and they were
viewed as for kids. And Superman the Movie was like
the first thing that was accessible to kids, not necessarily
not necessarily strictly for a younger audiences, but also like
there were real stakes. There's actual you know quote, real

(10:54):
actors with Marlon Brando and Gene Hackman. There's credibility, there's gravitas,
and there's a certain amount of seriousness that the material
is and thoughtfulness given to the material where there never
really had been in that way.

Speaker 7 (11:08):
Before, and people still rejected it. I know, Pauline Kill
of all of you know, maybe the most prominent figure
at the time, was like, oh this, what is this?
Like this we can't take this seriously because it's based
on kind of like a kiddy kind of ip, you
know what I mean, or an idea. But that's the
thing with comic books. I think the thing that a
lot of the the bros these days misunderstand is that

(11:28):
comic books are made for kids. Like that's intrinsically what
they are. I mean, I don't mean that to sound
I don't know why that sounds negative, you know what
I mean, Like, there's nothing wrong with something to me
for kids.

Speaker 6 (11:40):
That's like saying Bluey is for kids description that we
we kind of risk or we're kind of hesitate to
make on our show on Back to Blue. Is that
labeling it to kids show like an insult because kids
can watch it. Yeah, that doesn't mean it has any
and it doesn't have anything to offer. That doesn't mean

(12:02):
there's no substance there for audiences beyond a certain age.

Speaker 7 (12:06):
Well, it's like a stigma, is what it is. You're
like when you attach a G rating to something that
it's automatically a turn off for people when you do.
You can only respect something that's PG. Thirteen and above.
These days, it's like to the point where some movies
are rated PG or PG thirteen so they can get
that actually push stuff like that. The thing with Superman
is that, yeah, it's for kids. Yeah it's very innocent

(12:27):
and kitty, but there's also like a gravitas and a
seriousness to it. You've got you mentioned Gene Hackman, you
mentioned Marlon Brando, Trevor Howard's also win there from brief
Encounter from Third Man. You've got Maria Shell, You've got
Glenn Ford, You've got Jackie Cooper of actually Cooper. You've
got people that when we look at people at movies today,
like you look at Batman, begins like Trevor Howard and
Jackie Cooper, and they were the Morgan Freeman, the Michael Kine,

(12:51):
that Gary Oldman of their day. And it's when people
talk about Superman, they're very disingenuous because they don't give it.
I don't think the credit that it needs. Like you
talked about, it created the superhero genre, and I think
people are very disingenuous when they talk about it, because
I don't know if they don't realize it or they
just don't want to think about it. But it's literally
the same format where you introduce the character, you show

(13:12):
his first intro, when he first builds himself, You show
him like fighting crime as an example, You introduce him
to the villain, you show the complications, love inch of
stuff like that, and then he fights and then he wins.
I just described ninety percent of all superhero movies, and.

Speaker 6 (13:26):
Especially the first one, especially the origin, like the first
exactly French, yeah, of any series. And it's funny too
because then in essence they also created they also invented
the superhero sequel Yeah with this film. Like you know,
we mentioned a little bit in the previous episode, and
we can get into a little bit more now. Of course, famously,

(13:48):
this was designed to be two films, two part story
both supposed to be the record directed by Richard Donner,
shot simultaneously, not back to back simultaneously, which is why
it's a lot of this film was shot by Richard
Donner originally and then scrapped when Richard Lester stepped in.
Uh again, there's something that hadn't really been done before that.

Speaker 7 (14:12):
I don't believe it was a huge financials did it
because the Sulcans split their three Musketeers, moving into three
Musketeers and four of Usrountiers. But then they got into
legal trouble because the actors were not contracted for a sequel,
so they weren't paid. They were only paid for one movie.
So those sal kinds are very you know, I don't
want it, Donner obviously, it doesn't like them, and you know,

(14:33):
you can go into the they're like, it's funny that
Supergirl and Superman three had the stench of the Salkans
on them anybody fighting back, and then Superman four has
the stench of the cannon films. It's just those movies
are just so mishandled. But you know, we're that's basically
what it is, is they I guess there was more
of that. How well, now we know we can do that,
let's go ahead and make two big movies at once,

(14:53):
because we know where the Sulcans we're gonna make money.

Speaker 6 (14:57):
Yeah, and because of that, the the only pure Superman
movie in that initial run was the first one, and
then this got, this started to get all of that
started to seep into this film. And it's funny too,
because for a long I don't feel like people talk
about Superman two anymore as much. And I wonder why

(15:18):
that is, because for a long time, pre MCU and
like the comic book movie Revolution, if you looked at
any list of the best comic book movies, this was
always up there, usually higher than the original Superman movie.
And I feel like once all the maybe it's like
with the advent of the Internet and then everyone really
getting how this production was compromised. I don't know if

(15:40):
that like tainted the legacy of this film. But what
do you what are your thoughts on how Superman two
has has or has not, you know, lived on the
way it was intended.

Speaker 7 (15:51):
Here's the thing with Superman two. We'll we'll get into
it a little bit more. There's I think this sequel.
First of all, let me just say that it might
have been Eclipse by spider Man two, which is basically
the same exact plot as this. It's it's about Spider Man, really,
he can't juggle both, and so he has to give
it up, and he gives up his powers and Spider
Man and Spider Man two, it's more like he has

(16:13):
to right, He's he loses his powers because everything's so stressed.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
So let's say the Dark Knight.

Speaker 6 (16:17):
Also, like basically any superhero sequel, for the most part,
a lot of them are just like the first one's
the origin story. The second one is like, do I
really have to do this choosing between your you know,
you strung personal life?

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, the struggle, Yeah exactly.

Speaker 7 (16:30):
Well that's what the second act is supposed to do,
like complicates things, right, So I think maybe it's been
a clipped by Spider Man two. It's also been eclipsed
by X two in a way that I think Superman
two and this is what I mean when we'll talk
about it later as a story, I think it's much
deeper and much more provocative than the first Superman. To
My issue with the First Man is it's just Superman.

(16:52):
If you don't know why he can do things, how
he knows he can do things, he just does it.
Like he can lift up the crust of the earth
and seal it just by pushing it. Back up, and
we're like, oh, he's Superman. That's that's the only reason
we get right, and we just accept it. And so
you know when when X two, when Superman two comes out,
and then it has the it's so much richer it

(17:13):
has it's about how Superman again, the whole point of
it is he realizes, you know, he has a conversation
in the in the Donner cut with his with Jarrell
about am I to be denied what I really want?

Speaker 3 (17:23):
Right? And I'm doing all this good? I love that.
Jorell is like, well, I'm going to let you make
your own mistakes. That's that's just the part of being human.
And he le's that.

Speaker 7 (17:31):
And then Superman exactly right right, speaking of fact to
bleekness that but you know, Superman realizes that giving up
his power is a very selfish thing because he's put
on this earth to help people and keep people out
of danger. By giving that up, the world is almost
taken over by aliens, you know what I mean. And
so that's I just think that the the the plot

(17:54):
to this thing is so much more, like I said,
provocative and so much deeper. I think the way that
it's handled lessons idea because if you look at the
first Superman, it's handled with such mythology and such grandiose,
you know, a gravity to it, and this one, like
you said, you lose that it's slipping away a little bit.
The Donner cut brings that back and you can feel it.

(18:15):
But I do think the Donner cut has problems.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
That we'll go ahead and talk about. But I don't know.

Speaker 7 (18:18):
I just feel like the idea of the Superhero sequel,
why would you want to talk Superman too when you
can talk Dark Knight, where you can talk spider Man two.
I mean, you can talk X two. But that's the
whole point of this episode is you know, let's talk
about this movie that actually might have set another standard
for common sequels, like you said.

Speaker 6 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's it created the template for the
second act Superhero film, I think. And it's really interesting
watching both versions sort of back to back, as I
did in preparation for this, and you know, I'd seen
them before, but like watching them back to back and
doing research on like, oh, so most of the most

(18:57):
of the good stuff was shot by Richard Donner, and
you can feel, you can feel the Richard Lester, like, oh,
this is just so this is just goofy kids shit,
like you could feel his hand kind of slipping into
certain sequences. Of course, we should probably just get into
the fact that, like some of the actors didn't return,
Like they couldn't use Brando's footage without paying him, so

(19:20):
they all the joor All stuff was excised, and Susannah
York Laura all of a sudden is the talking head
in the Fortress of Solitude. Uh, they didn't get they
didn't get Gene Hackman back. And so there's a lot
of like shots from a distant with a very obvious
like stand in stunt double or whatever with a voice,

(19:40):
so someone trying to sound like Gene Hackman or something
to sort of paper over things. And obviously in nineteen
eighty most people probably didn't even notice all of that stuff.
How much does that stick out to you now, knowing
what we know watching the theatric how much is what
you loved about the theatrical version kind of I'm ruined

(20:00):
the dinner cut.

Speaker 7 (20:01):
I guess it's very very complicated. I have a very
complicated hissue with my feelings about this. Like I said,
the first Superman was just an eye opener, a brain Blower.
Then the second movie comes out. Because I'm a kid,
that's the one that I prefer. But then you go
up and you're like, oh, I actually prefer Superman saving
people For the last half hour, that's all the first Superman,
Like the last thirty minutes, it's just him saving people,

(20:23):
and it's so awesome seeing him do fly around like
a disaster movie. The fact the disaster stopped right, you
can't the people. Yeah, exactly, so this one especially, And
that's the thing. It's like this you said, it seems
very familiar. You know, your mann is still when you're
watching Superman two. But he does something where he realizes

(20:43):
keeps he keeps saving people's odd realizes he's going to
have to hurt these people to really get to him,
and he has to divert his attention between and it
gets to the point where you realizes they're going to
keep hurting these people.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
I can't. I got to take myself out of the equation.

Speaker 7 (20:55):
That's the Here's the thing is, it's so funny when
you read the initial reviews of Superman two, when you
read Pauline Kell's review, when you read David Denby's review,
they talk about oh, this movie is so much lighter.
Look how much more fun Lester has with Hackman. Look
how much better he is a directing Hackman. And I'm like,
it's funny that you don't know the production was. I

(21:18):
don't I assume that you and your guests went through
this whole history on the first Superman and that all
that stuff. But the idea that Richard Donner, first of all,
they shot them together. Imagine the audacity of that. Where
you have two scripts, you have all your Daily Planet stuff,
you have all your Lex Luthor stuff, you have all
your Fortress of Solitude stuff, and all they did is

(21:39):
they shot every bit of footage from the script as
they had those sets, and then they moved on to
something else. So that means that Brando and Hackman and
Valery Perne and Ned Batty were all contracted to finish
their roles within a certain amount of time, and they
did that under Donner. So that's funny. When you watch
Superman two, you don't and you don't know this, You

(22:00):
don't realize that Gene Hackman didn't shoot a single frame
of film for Richard Lester, there Ish and Valley Parian
and Ned Bady. There is nothing that they shot under
Richard Lester's direction, and it's kind that's kind of a
mind blower, it's but it's funny seeing people go, oh,
look how much better he has a directing Hackman, He's like,
he didn't direct them, you know what I mean, Like,
I don't know what you're talking about. But the other

(22:22):
thing with Lester two, Superman two works because the Donner
skeleton is there. It's the idea of Lex Luthor escaping
from prison, the trio, the villains escaping from the Phantom Zone,
as Superman gives up his powers, and then everything crosses
at the moment where Zod takes over the White House
and now Superman Clark is like, I've got to get

(22:43):
my powers back. That whole idea all the way to
the end where Superman realizes I I can't give up
my powers for the humanity needs me right. All that
stuff is baked in and it works because that's the
Donner stuff. When you watch Superman three, there's no influence
Donner in there, and that's where you can fill the
movie completely. Go off the rails. From the first frame

(23:04):
where it's Richard Pryor standing in line at the unemployment office.
Why Are we starting a Superman movie with Richard Pryor
in the unemployment office?

Speaker 3 (23:14):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 7 (23:15):
Yeah, it completely goes off the rail. So yeah, I
love Superman two growing up, but the Donner cut and
diving into the history it has soured me. And you
are able to look at it and go, oh, that
doesn't work. This doesn't work, and we'll talk about I
still think some things do work, but I don't know
if that's because Lester had a better control over the
footage he had, or if it's generally because.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
Donner is better at this material. That's definitely something I
want to.

Speaker 6 (23:39):
Talk Yeah, I think it's It's interesting that you mentioned
the moment where he goes back to the fortress and
gets his powers back, because that's completely glossed over in
the theatrical version, like she Loes goes back to the
Daily Planet and we just kind of see off screen
he gets powers and shows up, and and for that

(24:02):
reason alone, I'll just jump ahead on that. I prefer
the Donner cut because I think you need that scene
is so critical. That's the the reckoning with the decision
that he's made. If the whole if his arc is,
oh forget about being a superhero. I just want to
be with Lois Lane and just settle down and be
a regular guy. Oh wait, I can't do that. I

(24:23):
have a responsibility to you know, with great power comes
great responsibility. Somebody once said to to, you know, to
protect humanity. And and you know if I, if I
have the ability to do so, I should live and
live up to that, which is why And that's what
his father is sort of urging him to do, which
is why it's so no spoilers, but so interesting what

(24:44):
Gon did with the Jorel character and that whole thing. Yeah,
and that was so surprising. But without that moment of
him going to see his father and knowing that that
it would use the final energy of Fortress to give
him his power to reverse that that Joerel anticipated. Oh,

(25:05):
my son's gonna have a moment of weakness where he's
gonna be like, forget about the powers. I just want
just let me, let me live a normal life, let
me just be Clark Kent. But then he's gonna change
his mind and he's gonna come back. And the fact
that he anticipated both those moves without seeing that that
the cost of that the rest of it is kind

(25:27):
of arbitrary to me, like you need to you need
to see on Christopher Reeve's face. First of all, you
need Marlon Brando in this movie. Like I know, obviously
a lot has been said, like he just showed up
and had the cute cards and if the lies lines
fed to him, like he was totally checked out. Reeve
was very open about like, yeah, this guy was not
technically Brando sucks in that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly,

(25:48):
but he's Brando and he brings a certain amount of
charisma just because of who he is and how he
how he delivers lines.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (25:56):
Without the continuity of Joerel already, you're already undercutting so
much of the world building and the character building from
that first film, the whole Father and this father becomes
the son, the son becomes the father. Thing is dropped
without that, and we don't that moment where Rave reacts
where he says, this will be the last time we

(26:16):
you know, this is the last time we you know,
we talk, and he's like, you know, you's going to
use the rest of them the energy for this fortress
to give you your powers back, and he's like father, no,
and he like recognizes that, like this is this there's
no going back the consequences, yes, the exactly the consequences
instead of in the actual version's like oh just getting

(26:38):
a back, let's change my mind. Like I think that
is already sort of a fatal flaw of the Lester cut.

Speaker 7 (26:45):
No shade to Susannah York, who's great, But when you
of course get the Cortonian stuff in the Fortress of
Solitude and Brando's not there, it feels like a cheap
knockoff version of the first Superman because he's not there.
I think Brando the way. One of the weird things
about the Donner cut is I don't think the special
effects are quite up to snuff, Like some of them

(27:05):
are really like wonky in a way. When you see
Brando's face and everything and it looks it doesn't look
quite as solid as the first movie. I think they
didn't have quite the budget. They do what they can,
but the fact that he's there, it adds so much power.
Like you said, the kernel of the idea is in
the Leicester cut. All the powerful stuff that Donner said
is in the Leicester cut, but it's not dramatized the

(27:27):
way like you talked about the way that it is here.
You need that conversation where Superman, like you said in
the Lester cut, he's like, oh, father, and then he
finds the Green Crystal and then the next thing, he's
Superman again. It's like what, so what It's not just
that we don't see him turn back into Superman. It's
like we don't see what the consequences are, just like, well,
he can do this whenever he wants, you know what
I mean, And so you lose some of that important

(27:49):
that the drama of it to really sell it. And
so yeah, you need Branda Win there to kind of
And in a way, it's interesting because wouldn't that be
like the final moment of the third movie. Wouldn't that
complete a truely? But instead we're doing that character shift
in at the end of the second mm hmm.

Speaker 6 (28:04):
Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. It's a lot of it's
a big game of what if these two movies, these
two versions of the same movie. It's kind of like
the again to go back to Rocky the Rocky four
conversation that I had with Ryan Luis Rodriguez. That's another
one where you're like, wow, these are very different, Like
there's so much, so many roads not traveled in that film.

(28:27):
I do feel like too, and I said this on
the last episode, that it almost would have made sense.
I mean, and they wouldn't been able to do this
because they couldn't use the brand of footage. It almost
would have made more sense to put the whole Zod
thing at the beginning of this film as opposed to
the beginning of the last film, because I feel like
it does add so much of that Krypton heavy opening

(28:51):
and again that to that theme of consequences that we
just said, rather than the more logical event the missile
that Lex Luthor had in the first movie being turtled
into space and that being what frees them from the
Phantom zone, it's this night completely invented Eiffel Tower terrorist attack,

(29:17):
but like a hydrogen bomb.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
I don't know. That just does not work that sequence
for me. Okay. I think the deal was that Lester.

Speaker 7 (29:30):
When Donna was having problems with the Sulkans, Lester was
brought and it's like an associate producer to kind of
work as a bridge because Donna and Ili and Alexander
weren't talking to each other, and so I don't think
Donna realized what Lester was doing, and Lester is never
I don't think he talked to him about it, like
kind of swooped in there and snuck in and said, oh,
I'm going to take over things you're I'm going to
do everything that you built. I'm going to take that

(29:50):
and kind of claim it is my own. Because I
don't think Lester ever came out and said, actually, it's
Donna that did all this stuff. He never said anything.
I think it's it's akin to just taking credit for
all the good stuff in the movie to me anyway.
So when Lester came on and he you know, he
he got rid of the myth stuff. And that's what's
the problem with with Lester is like he said this,

(30:13):
I'm not that guy. I'm not the myth guy. I'm
more of the comedy person. That's what I'm going to
bring in. So also on top of that, when he
was brought under direct he had to reshoot things because
he wouldn't get the main credit without having seventy percent
of the movie shot. And so that's why they reshot stuff,
which includes the Eiffel Tower sequence. This is one of

(30:33):
the things though, that I think Lester does right is
he adds and maybe inadvertently. I don't know if he
did this on purpose. Roger Ebert said something in his
review of Superman two that I've always loved. It's like,
in Superman two, you're taking the original pop hero, the
pop like art hero, right, and you're placing him up
against other pop artifacts. You're putting him against Niagara Falls,

(30:54):
You're pitting him against the Eiffel Tower, You're pitting him
putting him up next to the Coca Cola sign.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
Right.

Speaker 7 (30:59):
That's a very inch like visual idea. And so I
think Lester, like I said, maybe inadvertently, he's like, well,
the Eiffel Tower is another version of that. It's another
icon that I can show Superman against. So I think
the thing with the Lester cut is I think it's
more elegant in certain ways, even though there's the comedy
doesn't really come into it. I think until the Metropolis

(31:20):
Molie at the end, that's when you really start noticing it.
But I think he handles And maybe it's an overreaction
on Donner's part because he Donna did not shoot the
Kryptonians attacking the Midwestern town. He did not shoot the
hardly endy of the Metropolis fight. I think he shot
a couple of things for the trailer, but nothing in

(31:41):
full because famously he had to move on and complete Superman.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Before they could shoot that stuff.

Speaker 7 (31:46):
So I don't know what I'm getting it here, just
just that I think that Lester, because that's his footage,
he can be more playful with it, and he can
be more elegant with it. When you watch the Donner
cut that the Midtown stuff, it's very very choppy. In
the original version, it takes place in big chunks and
then you'll cut back, but in the Donner cut, it
seems to be like thirty seconds and then they'll cut

(32:07):
back to something else, and in that way, it loses
some of that the power of the story that you're telling.
But again I don't know if that's just because Donner
was so upset that he had to use the Lester
stuff that he just wanted to.

Speaker 6 (32:19):
Think maybe, yeah, yeah, I think it might be some
of that for me. And I said this in the
in the last episode. I love the I like the
Krypton stuff. Like I said, I think it does go
on a bit longer than it probably should have. But again,
it's the first time they've done one of these movies,
so I free passed what you get, what you get
one pass at that.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
One time.

Speaker 6 (32:39):
I don't want to see the whole Krypton feel right
a million times and I love uh, and I the
Gene Hackman, the Lex Luthor stuff in the first one
kind of grates on me a little bit after a while.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
It's kind of hacky. Yeah, he doesn't.

Speaker 6 (32:54):
There's one moment that is recapped in this movie that
did where he does well in the in the Donner
cut that he does feel like a threat, and it's
when he's holding dangling the Krypton Knight in front of
him and he's like, oh, he's like.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
This old disease maniac.

Speaker 6 (33:07):
And Gene Hackman does such a great he's you know, rip,
he's so he was so great back.

Speaker 7 (33:13):
To his real estates, keep yeah exactly exactly, just so
we can go back and do his Yeah, he's.

Speaker 6 (33:19):
All about land, and uh, I think I love how
shameless these movies are about, like he just wants real estate,
just wants land, Australia, Cuba and the yeah exactly whatever
you get his hands on, which you know, I I
think works. I like the Lex Luther stuff better in
this film. In a lot of ways, because it kind

(33:41):
of puts his the threat of Lex Luther in an
in an interesting perspective when it's up against the threat
of General Zad and Ursa and non like it's like, oh,
this guy, he's just like how can I manipulate my
way and like weasel my way through the situation. So
it's an interesting way to it's an interesting place to
put Lex Luther. And so we get minimal Otis. I

(34:01):
find Otis very obnoxious and we don't get enough Miss
test Mucker.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
I like her. I think she's fun.

Speaker 7 (34:07):
The funniest thing because Gene Hackman and ned Baty famously
only shot for Donner. I laughed so hard when they're trying,
when they're walking against the wall, and first of all,
when they shine the spotlight and Otis does like the
bunny ears and the noise that Gene Hackman makes cracks
me up, but I don't think it's in the theatrical cut.
The funniest part is when they stop and Luther's like,
did you hear that? It's like did you hear the

(34:29):
and like, don't see when I say, I thought that
was yeah, okay, but I gave you. I mean Otis
is a little bit of a bumbling kind of oath.
But I like that footage in there. I thought that
was funny, but it's very small doses, like in this movie.
I think it's funny. It's just a lot of it
in the first one. But what really helps the what
really makes the first one work for me, is Christopher

(34:50):
Reeve and Margot Kidder and their chemistry. So and I
love that that carries over here. So like the development
of the Lowest in and again, I think I said
on the last episode, I I was a Lois and
Clark The New Adventures of Superman kid, Like that was
my thing. Every week I was watching that. Now I'm
like Dean Kane.

Speaker 6 (35:11):
But keep your mouth shut. But it's all yeah, exactly,
but it's all it's all about. So I'm having sort
of a natural affinity for all the Lois and Clark
interplay stuff. And we get nice build off, build up
off of what was in the last film, where now
Clark is like, oh him again, And that's kind of
the dynamic at the Daily Planet that he has, Like

(35:33):
he's just jealous of Superman and he apparent to everyone,
but Lois kind of has a crush on Lois. You
know Clark obviously we know how he Superman feels, so
that I think that was a really cute idea seated
in the first movie that they build off of here,
and even the whole thing of them posing as newlyweds

(35:54):
to go undercover. That was an episode of Clark in
season one that they they did that to, Like, I forget,
it was a totally different reason. It was like some
arms dealer or something, but it was a similar kind
of setup. So I love all the Lois and Clark
stuff and the way that it dovetails with the Superman reveal,
I think is really really fascinating. And they pick up

(36:16):
the threads of her at the end of the first
one being like.

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, Clark's never around with Superman.

Speaker 6 (36:22):
Ah, and she dismisses it, and then it comes up
in the Donner cut a couple times before she like
actually finally kind of cracks it. How do you feel
about the development the continuation of the Lowest Lowest Clark
Superman triangle.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Well, let me ask you a question.

Speaker 7 (36:39):
I know that we're mainly talking about the theatrical dovetailing
into the Donner cut. Do you want me to talk
about it in regards to the Donner cut or do
you want me to talk about it. Okay, let's just
do that, because again there are differences. If I had
to choose one, like you said, I would choose the
Donner cut because there's so much more in here.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (36:56):
The problem, and you're talking about Lois and Clark. The
problem with the Donner cut is I don't think it
works as an actual movie because you've got the they
didn't have the scene in the in the Lester cut,
it's she drops herself into the river and you know,
he has to go save her, and then later they're
at in their room and then he trips over the
bear rug and then.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
He ducks his hands on the fire. That's how she
finds out. And so.

Speaker 7 (37:22):
It's weird in this one because, like I said that,
they had to use that test, that test screen test
thing to have that alternate version where it's Lois tricking
him into using a blank right to reveal his secret identity.
And you can tell that they're not. You can tell
it's it doesn't match the aesthetics of the rest of
the movie. It's very like dull not at all. He's

(37:42):
not he's not fully Superman. You know, he's not doesn't
Chrispery doesn't have the build. Lois is very skinny, and
it doesn't work. I get what they're doing, but as
it does, it takes you immediately out of the movie
because you tell it's not footage.

Speaker 6 (37:54):
Right, it's a elited foot It's a elited scene thrown
in the middle of the movie.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Is what it feels, right, Yeah, And it's like, oh,
it's so. And then we'll talk about.

Speaker 7 (38:01):
The biggie a little bit later where the you reuse
something from the first one again, which is problematic and
you know, in a lot of ways, but also from
the lesser perspective. I like in the Lestra cut how
it's and I said that I prefer the Donner cut
so I can get to this point. I like how
it structured where Lois it doesn't suspect him. She slowly

(38:21):
starts suspending him like she's saved on the Eiffel Tower whatever.
They meet again when she introduced the joke with the
orange juice, the running gag, all that, and then when
they go to Niagara Falls and she's like, wait a minute,
why is Superman here?

Speaker 3 (38:32):
Wait a minute?

Speaker 7 (38:33):
Like I took off clark glasses, is that Superman underneath that?
Like that's when he starts to I think in the
Donner cut, she's more it's more annoying.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
Like she's very kid like.

Speaker 7 (38:41):
You see the look on Kidder's face when she like
compares the picture Superman and she draws like the suit
over him and stuff like that, and she does this
thing where she keeps elbowing him, and I'm like, super
super yeah, super right. It's a little much. It's a
little where we complain about Lester being too comedic. I
think that part that stuff is a little too comedic.
And I get it, they're picking up the thread, but
I just like how it gradually goes into that again,

(39:05):
you know what I mean? How and then she slowly realizes.
So that's the only thing, Like the Lewis and Clark
difference is I think the story the romance is still there.
But and again in the Donner cut, when they're he
reveals himself and they fly to the Fortress of Solitude,
it doesn't feel earned like the Lester cut earns it.
But again, a lot of the stuff in the Leicester
cut is shot by Donner. Yeah, and so is it

(39:27):
just a question of Lester. The editing is different. Is
it a question about Donner going, Oh, I don't like
that I have to use like we said, I have
to use the Lester. I'm just going to keep cutting
away from it so we don't have to delve in
it's complicated feelings.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Yeah, well, which I mean as scripted.

Speaker 6 (39:45):
I do think that the screen test scene is far
superior to the scripping into the fire. Yeah, because, first
of all, the bumbling Clark Kent is a performance. Why
would he accidentally bumble into the fire to give away
his you know what I mean? That doesn't make sense
unless I don't know. I it's it is, this is

(40:07):
this is where you start to get to I couldn't
one of these people nail it? Because well that's why
you said it'saminating that you said these are both fascinating
what ifs, because we if Lester had used more of
the Donner gravitas, it would have been beautiful.

Speaker 7 (40:21):
I would still love it. I would love it more
than the first and because of that, but it's truncated,
and it's it's it's compromised because of all that, and
then the Lester stuff like again, it's it's very complicated.
It's just so that, again going back to the idea
that the sequel is so much more supple and provocative
in the first Superman.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
I'm not trying to Dan and great Christopher Reeve here
at all.

Speaker 7 (40:41):
I want people to understand that I think his performance
is magical to the point where it's weird that a lot,
including Lewis and Clark, which my problem with that TV
series is I never felt that Dan Kane and Superman
the way he performed an eterfact, that Superman and Clark
Kent were separate beings. I thought they at the same. Yeah,
he does basically, and then you watch Man of Steel, which,
again never given the chance to delve into his charismatic site.

(41:03):
He's always like just a stoic kind of figure, so
we never see what is Clark can be like, they're
exactly the same. So that means that people that grow
up in those movies and Leis and Clark, no I
prefer Leis and Clark to Man of Steel, don't get
me wrong, But people that only grow up on those shows,
they watch Christopher Reeve and they're like, why is he
playing two different characters? Because they don't know that that's
built into part of his as Superman. Right, So, I

(41:26):
think in the first one, and I've said this multiple
times before, the best special effect in any movie I've
ever seen is after Superman takes Lois for that ride,
that flight, they go back to the apartment, Clark Kent
walks in and then she walks off, and he does
this thing where he takes off his glasses and he
straightens up, and it's like he grows two feet and
I'm like, it's just Christopher Reeves standing up, And that

(41:47):
is the best special effect I've ever seen. I think
he nails that. I think he nails the heart of
Superman and Clark that more than the writing does, because,
like I said, the writing is like, oh, why can
he do that?

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Because he's Superman? Why can he do this because he's Superman?
You believe it?

Speaker 7 (41:59):
Because because Christopher Reeve right and again to the idea
of sequels, I think his performance, and you see it
more in the Donner cut is much more supple and
much more nuanced because now he has to play I'm
struggling because I want to be with this woman. I
want to be happy, but I've got my calling that
I need to focus on, and so I don't know.
I don't know if you see that in the second movie.

(42:20):
I really think you sense that in the second movie
because of alternate scenes. And that goes back to that
part where instead of tripping over a rug, Donna respects
the Superman character so much that that's what he would
have done instead of tripping over a rug, you know
what I mean. It's just the way Lester doesn't feel
like he respects the character, where Donna respects the.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Hell out of the character. I think that's the main difference. Yeah,
I think that's I think that's right.

Speaker 6 (42:55):
We do end up in following, as you sort of mentioned,
a lot of similar beats, Like I think the biggest
differences are the Marlon Brando stuff, the lack of the
comedic beats, especially in the third act of the film.
How do you feel what do you think overall about
Terrence stamp Asa speaking of credible threats, and I think

(43:19):
this it feels like the Donner cut to me leans
less on. Oh look at these it's like the fish
out of water or comedy, like they don't understand how
this works and actually treats them with more respect as well,
sort of of tailing off what you're saying about Chris
Reeves Clark.

Speaker 7 (43:38):
It's very strange because that whole section when they're in
the Midwest is my least favorite section. I feel like,
even though I like the story, whenever it cuts back
to them and again that's maybe that's why Donner keeps
cutting away from it because he doesn't like it either.
But it's just I don't. I do not like Clifton James,
the sheriff guy. He also shows up in a couple
of James Bond movies. I don't think he's funny. Like
whenever he's on screen, I'm like, what what is this like,

(44:00):
it's such a stereotype.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (44:02):
I don't like that stuff. But I do get what
you're saying. They're adding some kind of nuance to them
discovering their powers, and that's that might have been what
Donner was doing. Like I said, they didn't shoot that stuff.
Maybe that's what he would have done, but it just
feels I don't know, it just feels too comedic. That
part when you're talking about Zod it's funny. It reminds
me too of the you know, con in Star Trek

(44:22):
two where they look like go go dancers. How they're
dressed up. Was that really a threat? Did back in
the eighties early eighties and people think that was a threat? Rob,
do you remember any of that? I no, I don't.
I don't an eighty nineteen eighty. I'm sure Zod came
off as a general threat. But and again I'm not

(44:43):
trying to detegrate. Terrence Stamp plays and was kind of
like an effeminate. He's more effeminate than he is a
bully like Michael Shannon plays on as Yes, right, yeah, absolutely,
I think that has to do with the costumes they're wearing,
the thigh high boots. It's it's very silly, but because Zod,
like I said, I don't think Lex Luthor feels like
much of a threat, but Zod feels like a threat,

(45:04):
like a threat. None feels like a threat. So even
though they're silly and None has played mostly for laughs,
and again a lot of the comedy stuff comes in
the lesser directed bits. Absolutely, yeah, it's I don't know,
I could do without those scenes. But they're not the
problem with Superman too. That makes sense. They're because of
the comedy. It's kind of but it doesn't really it's
not highlighted as much as when you see the goofy

(45:26):
bits in the Metropolis fight.

Speaker 6 (45:27):
Yeah, the by goofy bits to clarify, you mean the
ice cream blowing off somebody's ice cream come into the
guy's face, the woman, Yeah, and then the guy's to pay,
like my hair, your hair, what about mine?

Speaker 3 (45:39):
And all that. Yeah. God, the preview to it.

Speaker 6 (45:43):
That's why at the end when it says coming soon
Superman three, I was like, oh, Broy, we already we
already know what to expect from that. Yeah, it's just
to you know, run through like the Donner footage that's
in the theatrical cut, the Kryptonian all the trial stuff
minus Brando at the beginning of course, that the recap

(46:07):
all the Lex and otis doing laundry and escaping the
prison with the miss test Mucker and the hot our
balloon and them at the Fortress of Solitude, the White House,
the attack on the White House, the visit to the diner,
Lex Luthor showing up in the White House, the villains
going to the Daily Planet they cut them coming back,

(46:30):
and then going to the Fortress. The second part of
the stuff at the Fortress where Lex shows up because
that was a Lex Luthor. That was a Gene Hackman
double like climbing down being like again the comedic stuff.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
He's like, Oh, I can't get down from here. Wait
the parachutes, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6 (46:44):
Gosh a Superman bringing Lois back home and then Clark
going back to the diner and getting his revenge on
Rocky like that's speaking of bullies, that guy. That's most
of the best stuff in this movie. It's not eighty
percent of the movie. They didn't shoot twenty percent. They
were that close to being complete. The only like alternative
things are the Lowest and Clark like the lowest and

(47:08):
the Margot Kidder and Chris Reeves stuff because obviously they
had to work around what they had for Hackman, and
so a lot of this stuff that's redone. As we're saying,
the the Eiffel Tower stuff is new. Uh, the discovery
of the powers is new. The the the there's that moment, yes, God, yes,

(47:30):
I like the moment in the even in the Lester
cut where he kind of shifts, you know, from from
Clark to Superman and she's like, I'm in love with
you and he said, well then we'd really better talk.
Like that stuff works, but it works because of the
performance is not because the writing is like that solid.
And I also love in the Leicester cut she seems

(47:51):
like when he's going, I don't know if it's just
me or Margot Kidder, just like was not. She was
obviously very vocal about not being happy with that Donner
was let go and all of that, and I suspect
and I've heard elsewhere that maybe that's why she wasn't
in Superman.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Three very much.

Speaker 6 (48:07):
Yeah, exactly, which is a bummer because her absence is
felt in that film. It looks it seems like Lois
is her performance in the Lester version. In the Lester version,
the Lester shot material feels it feels disconnected, it feels muted,
It feels like she was not committing to it because

(48:27):
she didn't want to be in that situation. And in
the Lester cut when he's I don't know if it's
new different footage or if it's just me projecting onto it.
When he's telling her like, oh, this is the crystal
I found, you know when I was a baby. It
called to me and all that stuff. There's a certain
point there where he's giving up her powers and she
looks like she's overwhelmed, like she's over it, and I

(48:48):
don't know if like it. It seems like to me
that almost there's a sense of a regret on Lois's side,
that she's like, maybe this is maybe am I into?
Am I in over my head? Like is this not
a good idea to be with? Especially she fell in
love with Superman and then he immediately turns around and
becomes not Superman.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Yeah. Yeah, So it's it's almost not talking to her
about it right.

Speaker 6 (49:10):
Exactly, Like I mean, that's in both versions, I think,
isn't it Yeah, yep, yep. So there's almost like a
little bit of a bait and switch on Lois's part
that what is an interesting idea that the Lester cut
doesn't do anything with. But it's it's like there was
something there that they could almost be like, well, what
you know she says in the diner scene in both versions,
I believe or she's like, you know, I want the

(49:31):
I just want the man that I fell in love with,
and he's like, well, I wish she was here. All
of that stuff I thought it was was was really
good because the tension wasn't quite there for me in
the Lester version, like that the the the the fireworks
that that you see in in the original film on
the in the whole balcony interview and everything. Do you

(49:51):
feel that as well or am I am I off
base here?

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Well?

Speaker 7 (49:54):
The thing is like, there's no there's no scintillating them
sleeping together. It's interesting that the Donner cut puts the
sleep together before he gives up his powers, because that
opens up, you know, the nerd conversations about a superhero
can have relations with a regular person, but anyway you
can self control exactly something like that.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
So I don't know.

Speaker 7 (50:11):
I feel like it's an aspect of the movie that
isn't really touched upon. It's hinted at more in the
Donna how She's like, I am asking you to give
up your power. I didn't ask you to do this,
like I but I get it, like I can't be
with you. And that's the that's the hard part, right,
That's every superhero kind of faces that, where you put
your lovedrens in danger, that kind of thing. But yeah,

(50:33):
I don't know, I do see what you're talking about.
I think Margaret Kidd's still great. I just think you're
missing a lot of the scintillating, funny, romantic stuff. Because
now you moved on to the complicated part of the relationship, right,
it's not as fun like the you know, messing with
it or kind of arguing with yourself about that. Being
conflicted is not as fun as just being fun and

(50:55):
having a good time. So I think maybe that's what
it has to do with.

Speaker 6 (50:58):
Yeah, it's also seeing the lesser version. There's more preamble
to like to like their their romantic moment, whether he's
like leads her by the hand over to like this
weird bed that we've never seen before. That's like just
like a big sunken bean bag kind of thing. I
don't know, how do you sleep in that little yeah,

(51:19):
no back support whatsoever. How are you supposed to sleep,
let alone have intercourse on that? That's just like there's whatever,
he's superman. Because he's Superman. There's the answer. And then
in the in the Donner cut, it's just like you
cut to them post coitus and everything. So I thought, yeah,
it's the lowest and Clark stuff is the biggest difference

(51:40):
I noticed in both for and all the silly stuff.
You know, there's no uh, they don't remake them Mount Rushmore,
which was really stupid. Like you mentioned Clifton James that
the there's an extra scene in the Lester version of
them in the car just having a conversation.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
I'm like, why is this here? Who cares? What is
the point of any of that?

Speaker 7 (52:00):
Because I'm funny. Aren't backwards people funny? I'm British, I'm British.
I don't get it. Yeah, yeah, exactly what I don't
want to cut. I think Richard Lester A Hard Day's Night,
The Beatles movie is one of the most magical, musical,
kind of hells of pop in movies I've ever seen.
So he can direct stuff. Just yeah, we're not it's

(52:20):
a bad fit for the material. Yeah. Well, it's kind
of like Zack Snyder direct Superman. It doesn't it doesn't
quite work. You can't have a Randian be the aspirational.
You know, it's very specific. As we've seen. There have
been how many four Breath, one Routh one Cavil. I'm
gonna not count the other ones as Superman movies character.

(52:41):
Yeah yeah, so that's like counting gun seven movies with
Superman as like the lead title character. And I feel
like maybe two of them work two and a half
if we get because this because this one is the half.

Speaker 6 (52:54):
This one is like it kind of works, but also
there's issues. But really this is the first and the
most recent that of the home the whole thing. I
also love too in this one, in the in the
in the less, in the Donner cut, it's music by
John Williams, and then on the Lester cut it's music
by Ken Thorne. Who the hell is that was my
whole day? How are you gonna go from John Williams?

(53:15):
Because John Williams again didn't even want to come back,
I guess, or exactly didn't get to finished fight. They
brought him back, and I think he had a fight
with Lester. I think he had a fight when they
were talking about it. And so I can't work with
this guy. That's the rumor. John Williams will never come
out and say I.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Hate that guy. He's too classy for that. Yeah, exactly so.

Speaker 7 (53:32):
But just to kind of a round about way, I will,
like I said, the Lewis and Clark stuff I think
works much works a little bit better than Lester cut
because they give it more room to breathe just like
you talked about, but with the music to it's here's
the weird thing you in. That John Williams theme is
so iconic that it's the super it's the superhero theme.
And they've used it in every iteration on the big

(53:53):
screen that we've seen, even the cable version. They've used
it right in the the Joss Whedon version, and the
new movie uses it. So it's it's so indelible and
it's so much a part of the fabric of the
movie that and it's in such great stereo sound that
when you see Superman two and it's just compromised they
had to, it feels like they're only using half the orchestra.

(54:15):
It doesn't have that same booming feel. It feels like
it's a like an audio cassette tape.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Version of the CD. And I don't know if that
makes any sense.

Speaker 7 (54:24):
And then when I saw Superman Returns, because in Superman
three they don't really use the theme as a full
and Superman four it's all compromised Superman Returns. When you
hear the John Williams scene in full booming stereo sound
that first part of Superman Returns, are like, oh yeah,
I'm into this. This nostalgia's hitting me pretty hard.

Speaker 3 (54:39):
Right.

Speaker 7 (54:40):
But I love the Donner cut how it has the Superman,
the John Williams scene.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
Back, and fantastic stereo sound. It just gives the movie
a richer, more epic feel than the, like I said,
the knockoff version of the First Superman that we saw.

Speaker 6 (54:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I just as quick aside. I love
how Gun uses it as part of the tapestry musically,
but not as the main theme, because.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
There's there's a there's a new main theme.

Speaker 6 (55:10):
But there's like echoes of it where you get the
d and then it goes into the existing melody the
new score. I think it's it's perfect sort of amounts. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
It's also we're kind of pointing out a lot of
the goofy stuff in the Leicester cut, but it's also
the Donner Donners, both the Donner Cut and the original

(55:33):
film there is a lot of humor, and it's not
like it's somber. It's not like, you know, the Donner
cut is snyderfied or anything. There's a lot of good
stuff that I was I watching them back to back
today recently, yesterday today, a little bit of both that
I suspected was in the Leicester cut that, and I

(55:56):
realized was actually probably stuff that Donner's shot, at least
some of it. Like I don't know the line the
line where well, the White House stuff was Donner. So
like when he when Zod comes in and he's like,
and he sees the eagle the seal on the floor
of the Oval office and he says, I see her
practice in worshiping things that fly. That's good. Like that
whole thing I thought was great. Yeah, Like there's a

(56:17):
certain dryness that Zod has that really works in the
sport for when the President goes, oh God, and he goes,
z Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
That's good stuff.

Speaker 7 (56:25):
But it's character stuff. It's because he doesn't understand. He
doesn't know what God is, know what I'm talking about.
And the Leicester stuff is just the Comeding stuff doesn't
it's not character built. It's for the slap stickiness of
the moment, and it's not what Donner had built. So
you feel there's a definite different take on the material
that that maybe doesn't work as much.

Speaker 6 (56:44):
Yeah, and it's not every line, it's not a constant,
like not every character is is doing that. You know,
it's one of the main criticisms of so much of
the MCU is everybody's quippy. Like there's there's a line
in the original Doc Strange where there's some confusion over
he's like, oh who are you? He's like Strange, He's like, oh, well,

(57:05):
who am I to judge? Like mad Michelson has like
a miss. It's kind of a very odd sort of line,
like he doesn't know that that's his name, so he's
just like conversation went wrong. It's exactly yeah, it's just misunderstanding.
But there's there's moments in here that it does fit
these characters, and they are don't they don't understand kal
El's actions. There's a moment in here is he actually

(57:26):
I've discovered his weakness, he actually cares about these people.
And then urs is like like Pets, It's like I
suppose so. And then I don't know if it's in
the Lester, it's in the Donner Cup and the Leicester cut.
And then she's like she calls Superman a sentimental idiot,
which I was like, I don't know if that's that
line was in the Donner Cup, but that exchange about
seeing humanity as pets I thought was really funny. So

(57:47):
there's there's good stuff like that in there, and I
think overall the villains are are handled well. And it's
always fun to see how a sequel deals with the
surviving villain of the first movie, because a lot of
times they end up doing and this movie flirts with
that for about two seconds, the villain and the hero
teaming up against the bigger threat. So there's like there's

(58:09):
a moment where you think maybe they're going to do that,
and it's like, and you know Lex Luther to Luther's
going to be exactly, Lex is going to do his thing.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Let's see.

Speaker 6 (58:18):
You mentioned the celliphane s, which I put in all
caps on my list, Like, that's another problem I think
with these with this movie specifically, but really honestly most
of these movies that we're going to talk about on
this mega series is that there was no clearer cut.
There's no rules set. What does Superman do? Whatever the plot,
like you were saying earlier, whatever the plot needs him

(58:38):
to a memory wiping kiss, sure, turning time backwards, sure,
the celliphane s that, Like, what is going to is this?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Yeah? That always struck me. It's really weird.

Speaker 7 (58:49):
Well, there's a especially during the nineties comic book movies
I think really had the attitude of comic books are silly,
We're just gonna do whatever the hell we want, because
the idiots like this are going to say. That's why
Batman doesn't really work canonically with the comics. It's why
Batman Returns doesn't work at all. It's more of a
Tim Burton movie. You have movies like Steel and Spawn,
and you have all these that you can really feel

(59:11):
that they don't respect the source material. Even though I
love those first two Batmans, you can tell that Tim
Burton just doesn't care. I don't care what I'm gonna
make the movie that I want to make right, And
so I think that's a part of that. I think
as much as I love Superman the movie, there is
an aspect of it where it's like, well, this is.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
A comic book movie. It is silly.

Speaker 7 (59:29):
That's you're just gonna have to accept some things, right,
and the I do want to talk about the Turning
back the World because it is problematic, and again, famously
that was the ending of the second movie, but because
they had they just moved it to the to the
first one, and it works as a romantic gesture it
works as Superman kind of bending the rules, and they
you get that in the music because when he's circling

(59:50):
the world, you hear Lois's theme, so you know what
he's thinking about, right, But in this movie you didn't.
You don't get any of the repercussions of that. It's
a huge thing, and it it kind of like, oh,
he just did this, Well, doesn't that mean that the
earthquake's coming again? It's like it raises all these questions
and in this one it doesn't really do that, doesn't
cover any of that stuff. And the again, you bring

(01:00:12):
it in because they didn't have and we when we
planned this episode, Rob, I told you, I don't want
to talk about this, but I think we need to
talk about it. It's reusing. It's funny because if you
don't know the history of it, you're gonna be watching
Superman to the Donoica going he turns back the world again?
Does this happen to the end of every Superman movie?
And yeah, but that's how the second one was supposed
to end. Like they didn't have another ending. They didn't

(01:00:34):
have any alternate footage, so they just had to use it.
And I don't it's it's weirder this time because it
opens up a whole new can of worms. It's like, well,
how far does he turned back time? Because now Lois
doesn't know who he is. And then I love the
part in the original movie. It's a very audience pump,
you know, fist pumping moment where he goes back and
he fights Rocky. That's a very classical thing to do.

(01:00:57):
I know fans are like, oh, Superman would never do that,
but it's like, but if he did, the movie wouldn't
be as satisfy. He doesn't beat him up, he lets
the guy beat himself up. But because he turns back
the world. Aren't the implications that Superman goes there and
he threatens this guy that's never met him, so he's
beating up a total stranger.

Speaker 6 (01:01:11):
It get that guy had it come in regardless, but yes,
now it's just like he walks in, He's like, I
don't ever met that guy before.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
It's just it's yeah, it's it.

Speaker 6 (01:01:25):
Also what I don't like about it in this one
because I get that. On the one hand, props to
Donner for being like, well, no, this is what we
wanted to do, that was what we had in mind.
So we're gonna do that and another Richard in the
Donner cut. But at the same time, what I don't
like about it's usage here where you don't run into

(01:01:46):
as much in the in the first movie, is that
it negates the entire movie. So it's basically like, none
of this movie happened, so none of it matters. I
don't like that, right, I don't like that at all.
That's that that annoys me. Then why did you tell
me the story? If you're gonna, like I'm just kidding
resetting he you know, they're back in the pantom zone.
Lois doesn't know who, you know, all the development for

(01:02:07):
everyone other than Superman never happened, just just doesn't exist.
Like so I I in the first movie, it doesn't
bother me as much because he's just bringing it back
enough so they can get Lois out. I guess even
though yes, there are commit romantic is there is there another?
Is there another Superman going around doing all the stuff
he did the first time, kind of like Austin Power's style,

(01:02:29):
like the two Superman kind of flying around doing stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Uh?

Speaker 6 (01:02:32):
Maybe, I guess that's the logic, But yeah, it's what
sells that moment in the first one is that it
does feel earned because you get that performance of Chris
Reeves holding her holding Marbu Kidder as Lois Lane after
she's he's she's died and screaming to like and then
he gets that fierce determination on his face and you're like, oh, Superman,

(01:02:54):
go And so it earns that from an audience perspective, whereas.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Here the movie is kind of over and he's like.

Speaker 6 (01:02:59):
Before I go, haha, none of this happened, None of
it matters.

Speaker 7 (01:03:04):
I'm like, I wonder if they made a Wolverine movie
like that where he is going through and then all
of a sudden at the end he.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Forgets all of it. That was Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:03:12):
Well the other thing too, the Wolverine movie that they
themselves retconned out of existence.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Yeah, because nobody likes it. They're like, that just didn't happen. Yeah, well, I.

Speaker 7 (01:03:20):
Didn't want to talk about it before. But going back
to the screen test thing not fitting with the movie,
that's another reason why the Donner cut doesn't work as
a movie movie for me, because the ending, he just
does it again, and I get the reasons for it
they didn't have, but it's still like, well, this is
a what if. It's like, it doesn't work, but that's
all we had, right, so it doesn't feel like a movie.

(01:03:40):
And again that's why it's all these are fascinating what ifs.
Also I thought it was funny too, how I complained
this is the thing with this this movie, Rob is
every complaint that I have is counted by another complaint
where I say that the Donner cut is so choppy
with the back the back country stuff, with the Clifton
James character stuff. Right, how he takes the Metropolis fight

(01:04:01):
and he edits it, so it's that it's tighter, and
it's more violent and there's more of a pace to it.
It's so funny that you see something's handled so wrong
in the Donner cut, but then something's handled so right.
And then also something's handled so right in the Leicester cut,
but then something's handled so wrong. They're both got their
share of problems. Going back to the John Williams theme too,

(01:04:22):
I think the Zod come up and is much more
satisfying in the Leicester cut because number one, like building
lois all of a sudden, they show up at the
fortress and then Superman just walks out hey, and that's it,
and then it goes right into that stuff. I like
in the Lester cut, soelo Fan as a side, I
like how there's kind of more of a fight, but
it's more close quarter and it builds to the point

(01:04:43):
where Superman has no choice that he's going to put
himself back in the chamber.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Right.

Speaker 7 (01:04:48):
So again there's all these they have different pacing issues.
I think maybe the like we talked about, the Donner cut,
just comes back to pettiness, how Donner doesn't want to
give Lester the credit for anything.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think so. Uh it's yeah, that whole
the whole.

Speaker 6 (01:05:07):
Fortress so Solitude thing is is kind of messy at
the end, and it's it's a it's a shame.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
It's a shame.

Speaker 6 (01:05:15):
It's a shame that this movie is was kind of
split up the way that it is, because there's you
can see the movie that it wanted to be, and
it's like at times right there, like almost there. And
I do love that that screen test scene. I just
wish we had a actual version, yeah, version that was

(01:05:35):
to the rest of the production standard. It's like it's
a completely different hotel room. They're not styled the same
way or any of that, but the performances are there,
so you're almost like, eh, okay, I'll give it a pass.
There's also I don't think they ever got the shot
of Christopher Reeves up top at the in the Daily
in Pera White's office, because that looks like a CG

(01:05:56):
model and a voice double is what it looks like
to me, Or like, oh, lou you almost from.

Speaker 3 (01:06:02):
From over the screen test, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah,
that's okay.

Speaker 6 (01:06:07):
So they have done an animatic of the of the
screen test thing and just something It just goes into
stop motion for like three minutes and then with the
voice of.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
A chill Bill style it just does something completely different. Well,
it's so.

Speaker 6 (01:06:19):
Funny that you mentioned that, because to part of me
also now watching these movies, all the you know, the
Superman movies up to this point, I would I wish
they would do an edited edit version of the first
film and the second film, the Donner cut, and do
like a kill Bill style, give me a four hour
Donner Superman movie. Just don't have the time. Don't have
Lois get killed at the end of the first one.

(01:06:41):
Edit that differently, have him neutralize the threat, because then
the sequel here picks, especially the you know, the Donner
cut picks up with oh she wrote the story Superman
stops lex lute, They're great, no nod, And it picks
up the continuity perfectly without having And then you don't
have to repeat the time reversal. It only happens the
one time at least, So I don't know. That's just

(01:07:03):
my thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:04):
As we say, with the turning Back of the World
again over the amnesia.

Speaker 6 (01:07:07):
Kiss, yeah, yeah, same same, don't don't do that, don't
What were they thinking? You know what I mean, like, yeah, yeah,
I one hundred percent agree. And then the Diner thing,
obviously is is uh is, like we said, is contextualized
in a weird way. He does have He does have
Zod in a choke hold at one point, which also

(01:07:29):
made me think of Man of Steel. I'm like, oh,
I've seen that play a lot of different Yeah, right.

Speaker 7 (01:07:34):
He needs is a version of his mom just off
in the corner almost getting lasered, and that would force
him to break.

Speaker 6 (01:07:40):
Exactly either in either version, though I think it is
worth pointing out he seems okay with killing the Superman
when he has to like these guys.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Yeah, a credible threat, like lex, what's like I mean.

Speaker 7 (01:07:56):
Is that you see Zod's powers. Obviously he crushes his hand.
All that stuff is great because it's the come up
and that you're looking for. Like I said, it's more
satisfying it because the Superman theme builds the le in
the Lester cut.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
The Darner cut cuts back a little.

Speaker 7 (01:08:09):
Bit and does like a danger theme and I'm like,
doesn't really work for the moment. But when you see
them fall into nothingness or the clowns or whatever, there
is a deleted scene because you also see Luther come
out and say, you know what, fly me back or whatever.
There is a deleted scene where they walk out and
he has left Luther arrested by yes, I guess the
Ice cops or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:08:28):
You do see the three buildings get loaded into a truck.
You see them get loaded and Okay, I wish he
would have kept that because that would have eliminated one
of the complaints that Snyder bros. Have where they're like, oh,
look the Superman kills two yeah. Yeah, doing that would
have eliminated any of those arguments.

Speaker 6 (01:08:47):
And they're mortal, So he neutralized the threat. He didn't
have to kill anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:08:50):
Yeah, again, it's like Zod has been doing all these things.
He destroys the Rount rushmore about you know, he deserves
to have his hand crushed.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure, nothing wrong with that. It's
it's giving him what he deserves. So I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:09:03):
I just think there's some things that you could This
whole movie rob is, like you said, it's what is there.
There's just these little cliques that they can give to
make it perfect.

Speaker 6 (01:09:11):
There's also a lot of stuff to sort of tee
up the next film in one continuity. There's also a
lot of stuff here that is air quotes paid off
or it tries to pay off, and Superman returns Lex's
history at the fortress. The whole father becomes the son,

(01:09:34):
son becomes the father thing, all of that. So there's
like threads here that that movie tries to tries to
pick up.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
I don't think.

Speaker 6 (01:09:42):
It works overall. Lex is still obsessed with with beachfront property.
He calls it in this movie. It makes no sense
in that one, but still it's there. So there's like
elements about it that that that I think really work.
A couple of things that I did also want to
point out, So the creators of Superman, I believe are

(01:10:07):
were Jewish. And there's a line in this that I
didn't even notice until today where someone says, I think
it's in the Niagara Falls scene he jumps in to
go save that kid, and somebody over there says, what
a nice man. Of course he's Jewish, because I had
the subtitles on about so somebody describes, so I guess
the Superman canonically Jewish maybe supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
That's how saw That's exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:10:31):
The other lines that I love when when they think
when they think Superman is dead, they're like, he killed
they killed Superman, let's get him. And then the people
of Metropolis try and bum rush zod well some person
one person says I know some Judo and I was
like really, and which is ridiculous but also feels like

(01:10:51):
sort of the antecedent to the scene. And Spider Man
with the green gobblin like, oh, you mess with one
of us, you messed with all of us. That home thanks,
Superman is genres, Superman is the blueprint. Yeah, all of that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Of course.

Speaker 6 (01:11:06):
I love uh Superman's decision to sort of trick Lex
into helping you know, take away Zod and Ursa and
Non's powers, especially since he's already got the act acting chops.
He plays Clark Kent on a daily basis. I'm pretty
sure he can deceived Lex Luthor for two minutes.

Speaker 7 (01:11:28):
Very smart on his part, Superman's part, it is very
smart thinking speak on the he outthinks.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
The greatest criminal mind of our time constant. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:11:40):
I'm trying to see if there's any other notes that
I had that I wanted to make sure we throw
it out there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
All have John Ratzenberger showing up.

Speaker 7 (01:11:47):
We do have John rat I think is the preamble
to the Pixar movies different. Maybe would he he a
bit showed up in Superman three, directed by Richard Donner.

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
I don't know. I would have been fine with that.

Speaker 6 (01:11:59):
Never gonna say anytime Ratzenberger shows up, I'm never like, oh,
this guy. It's always like, hey, it's Cliff from Cheers.
I grew up with that show. So yeah, good stuff.
Mostly good stuff, I'd say in both, but also because
the Lester version has a lot of the same stuff
as the Donner cut in in the you know, at
least the good parts the parts that really work. I

(01:12:21):
don't love the memory kiss, but I do love the
Superman telling the President I won't let you down again,
that kind of thing. I like, I do like that,
and we still get the same smile towards the camera
and all of that. Yeah, I don't know, it's I
enjoy both these movies. It's just frustrating that there isn't
a definitive version of Superman of this story. So that's

(01:12:46):
why I like, I would love to see a Superman
the complete whatever, like they you know, I don't know
if you remember this, but long time ago, they did
a chronological recut of the first two Godfathers.

Speaker 3 (01:12:58):
Yes, the Godfather's Socker, right.

Speaker 6 (01:13:00):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, So like, can somebody do that with
Superman one and two, like with the Donner cut, like
I would love I'm sure that. I'm sure there's fans
that have done that, but like an official released version.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
I would love that. I think that would be really cool.

Speaker 6 (01:13:12):
And you can you probably still have to deal with
the screen test thing, because I don't know how you
get around.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
That either that or that. Yeah, and I hate that scene,
the fire scene. It's so goofy.

Speaker 7 (01:13:24):
Yeah, you have to mention is that this movie is
the original Zack Snyder's Justice League. Same issue, Like he
was making a movie, they had problems with him, they
figured out a way to fire him. Fans clamored for
a new version, They got the new version. I don't
think Zack Snyder's Justice League works one hundred percent of
the movie, but I think it's Zack Snyder's best movie.

(01:13:46):
So there's a lot of Like I said, there's a
lot of great stuff in Superman two, it's just you're
missing these little tweaks that would make it something. And
you know, you watch the first Superman. Everything about that movie,
other than a few problematic things, it's perfect. It is
what it is. There's no like, oh, they could have
done stuff it. It knows what it's doing. It's very confident,

(01:14:08):
never kind of sidestep stuff. It really leans into. So
that's why with sequels it's weird because I know everybody
loves Terminator too, but for me, it's such a copy
of the first one that I'm like, it's kind of
it's not original, so it won't work totally for me.
It's like when you see Empire strikes Back, It's like, yeah,
I like that better, but it's Star Wars that built

(01:14:29):
the you know, so there's parts of me that can't
like the sequel better than the original movie. But with
Superman two, it's only because it doesn't it doesn't have
that one hundred percent. It's working at maybe ninety percent
even when it's at its strongest, where yeah, the first
two Men is working at one hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
I don't know if that makes any sense.

Speaker 7 (01:14:47):
Yeah, this movie again is the original Justice League Snyder
version where I think it's great that fans work this enough,
where Warner Brothers kind of took notice and gave us
a complete version. Because as much as I dislike Snyder's stuff,
I liked that he got the version that he wanted.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
To have on the screen.

Speaker 7 (01:15:08):
So that's yeah, seeing Donner have this, you know again,
love the guy. Props to the guy master of Jack
of All Trades, second director I learned. I like that
this movie gives us an idea of what he was
after and what we could have gotten after these movies.

Speaker 6 (01:15:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also, even though this movie is
in two imperfect versions, I would say at minimum probably
the third best Superman movie still.

Speaker 7 (01:15:37):
Still that has got so much stuff in it that works. Yeah,
So it's hard to it's hard to deny both.

Speaker 6 (01:15:42):
Yeah, absolutely, one last thing I knew there was one
other thing I wanted to mention. In the Donner cut
during during the scene where he's getting his powers taken away,
I love that Jorel looks over at Lois Lane and
like glarees that are like you bitch my son, And.

Speaker 7 (01:16:02):
It's like that he saw that happen to Yes, interesting,
interesting idea, so good, so good.

Speaker 6 (01:16:07):
Where the Brando stuff makes it like an easy Donner
over lester like just by in and of itself, right
flaws and all like it's it's it's a tone closer
to the first one.

Speaker 3 (01:16:19):
Uh, Brando is in it. Hackman, real Hackman is in it.
It feels complete.

Speaker 6 (01:16:25):
There's a couple of things we don't like about it,
but like overall, it is definitely my preferred version.

Speaker 3 (01:16:29):
And it's Yeah, it's the I mean, it's the one
I own.

Speaker 6 (01:16:32):
I have a blu ray set of the first one,
the Donner cut and Returns, which weirdly works as sort
of a third part of this trilogy kind of even
if it's the weakest of the three by a lot,
which which I'll get into eventually, but is is there
anything about Superman two or Superman to the RICHERD Donner cut,
we haven't mentioned that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
You wanted to make sure we touch on before we
move on.

Speaker 7 (01:16:55):
No, when you I was looking overall, I'm so glad
you mentioned that Brando thing, because there I was gonna
I need mention that, but then I was like, yeah,
maybe I don't need to, So I'm glad that you.

Speaker 6 (01:17:03):
Know you got to. It's I love that moment. That's
one of my favorite moments in the Donner cut.

Speaker 7 (01:17:07):
But here's the thing too, and we all we talked
about this before, is like, no movie is perfect. How
many movies do we love that have parts and that
we were like, eh, I don't know so much about
that part.

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
Yeah, so yeah, of course.

Speaker 7 (01:17:16):
There's this movie's hard to write off, like we talked about,
and I love that you brought that up. Hardly anybody
talks about Superman two, but like Superman, it needs to
be talked about because without Superman two, we wouldn't have
the Dark Knight, we wouldn't have spider Man two. The
same thing why we wouldn't have any comic movie from
the first Superman. It's I think they're both very indelible, iconic,

(01:17:37):
mythologized experiences that are verbading in comic book movies today.

Speaker 6 (01:17:43):
The good ones anyway, And you know, I give Richard
Donner credit for not only creating the super modern superhero
movie modern whatever modern means anymore, creating the Superhero movie,
but also him and Lester I guess, sort of into
in tandem this Superhero sequel. I think it's also interesting too.
How many great third chapters of superhero movies are there?

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
Yeah? Do we never got one from Richard Donnard?

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Well?

Speaker 6 (01:18:10):
Wait, nobody knows what to do. Everybody's just trying their
own thing. You think of X in the Last Stand,
You think of Blade Trinity of Spider Man three, which
I've covered, which is an interesting movie that also has
its flaws.

Speaker 7 (01:18:24):
You know that I'm I'll go to bat for Dark
Knight Rises, and that's true, I will really go.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
But it does have weaknesses.

Speaker 6 (01:18:30):
But up against those other two, it's you know, it's
I think it's cultures. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
definitely but not thankfully not Superman three level of a
drop off, which we'll get to the next episode. But
what does this franchise the Superman as as conceived by
Richard Donner. The Superman franchise contribute to cinema. What is

(01:18:53):
the legacy of this run.

Speaker 7 (01:18:54):
Of films, Like we talked about, I think just the
first two, well, the second, the third, and fourth and
do kind of tie in this as well as well
as the offshoot the spin off of it. The first
two did set the tone for all. Without it, we
wouldn't have the comic book movies we have today, at
least not in its full form like we have today. Right,
But the third movie also shows what happens in a
lot of franchises where the studio or people lose sight

(01:19:17):
of what made the first two important. Then you have
the fourth one that just goes completely off the rails.

Speaker 6 (01:19:22):
It.

Speaker 7 (01:19:22):
Also, what's so interesting about these Superman movies is instead
of making a Batman movie, which I know Tom Mankowitz
wrote a script for a Batman movie to come out,
but they just never got around to it. Instead of
having a Batman movie and a Green Lantern movie and
a wonder Woman movie, we just had Superman movies until
nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 3 (01:19:39):
Yeah, we had Batman.

Speaker 7 (01:19:40):
And then instead of having you know, another Shazam movie
or Guardians of the Game, you know, all these other offshoots.
We just had Batman movies throughout the nineties. Yeah, it's
it's weird that these movies, even though Superman one and
two have such an impact on every movie we've seen,
the superhero boom of the seventies and eighties only led

(01:20:02):
to other iterations of the same thing that we saw.
So it's just interesting, kind of a yin yang of
how franchises work and how they have him.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's.

Speaker 6 (01:20:15):
I wonder also looking at this is like the source
code for all comic book movies, all superhero movies, at least.
I wonder if Superman for the Quest for Piece is
also sort of the the reason why a lot of
the these characters just do three and done, like yeah,
the well, like the MCU did Dig three, Iron Man's three,

(01:20:39):
Captain America, well, now they've done fourth, but it's a
different version of the character Captain America.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
At least.

Speaker 6 (01:20:44):
The only one in which they've done a proper four
was thor Love and Thunder, and most people have you know,
are like not not into that, so yeah, exactly. So, yeah,
it's interesting to see see this as how its impact
has continued to carry on and also assuming that the
box office performance continues as we'd all like it too,

(01:21:08):
and James Gunn is able does do a sequel to
his Superman, I don't. I'm sure that the plan is too,
but I don't know if they've officially like announced it's
shooting this time and coming out this year.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
I don't.

Speaker 6 (01:21:18):
I think he's smartly taking it one step at a
time and not being like, you know, like they have
other movies planned, but he's not sequalizing anything until it
happens in due time.

Speaker 7 (01:21:28):
It's a sign that he dropped that Supergirl poster and
within a matter of four hours it had like two
hundred thousand likes, so they're doing something. I can't wait
to see the reverberations of what the new Superman is going.

Speaker 6 (01:21:40):
To Absolutely, but when he does his Superman two, will
it have any echoes of what this Superman two did,
because you can feel the influence of everything that's come
before in his version. And I'm also it's also fascinating
doing this mega series that includes five Superman movies and
a Supergirl movie. That we got a new super movie
and the very next step is a Supergirl movie. So

(01:22:02):
I'm hopeful for that that'll be that that character will
get the the justice that she deserves, because a little
little tease for the Supergirl episode on this podcast, like
not what a mess, but also Helen Slater did nothing
wrong and so it's like she was failed by the material.

(01:22:25):
So I hope that Millie Alcock is not. I guess yeah,
but yeah, I'm looking forward to same. It's cool to
be excited about these characters again. So you know, it's
fun to look to the past and to the future
sort of simultaneously. But once again, Darren Lundberg of Nostalgic
Cast and back to Bluie, thank you so much for

(01:22:46):
coming on to discuss nineteen eighties Superman two and by extension,
two thousand and six's Superman two the Richard Donner Cutt.
Tell the people where they can find you on social media.
On Twitter, you can find me at d W. Lumberg
and I'm Blue Sky. You can find me at DW.
Lumberg dot be Skuy, dot Social. I'm on Facebook somewhere
you'll you'll find me. But yeah, you can mainly find
me those two other places. Awesome, and thank you again.

(01:23:07):
I would I'll chat with you with that, you know.

Speaker 7 (01:23:10):
Selfishly back to Blue I get a chat with you
in every episode, so, but if I could, I would
chat with you in every.

Speaker 3 (01:23:15):
Episode of franchise, Detours and close Watch.

Speaker 7 (01:23:17):
So I appreciate the invite, of course, that's something that
I love talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:23:22):
Likewise, meanwhile, you can find more episodes like this wherever
you get your podcast in on crookedtable dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
We're going to keep up with us on social media.

Speaker 6 (01:23:30):
That'll be at Cricket Table on Blue Sky or I
guess it's at crookedtable dot, besky Dot, Social Croocket. Just
search for Crooked Table. You find us there, Instagram and threads.
We'll be back next episode, regrettably with nineteen eighty three's
Superman three, the one that you know I sort of
mentioned to you I think pre record, the one that
I remember disliking the most of these of this run

(01:23:53):
I remember for your conversation, Yeah, I remember four being
more fun, even if it's maybe worse in some ways.
But that'll be that'll be next next conversation. For now,
that's a wrap on another Crooked Table production. Catch it
the next stop everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
This has been a production of Crookedtable dot Com. All
rights reserve lokated

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