January 30, 2025 • 38 mins
Starting and growing a business is exciting, but one legal mistake can cost you everything. In this episode of From Crisis to Justice, Parag Amin sits down with entrepreneur and business attorney Pankaj Raval, founder of Carbon Law Group, to break down the legal essentials every business owner needs to know.
Pankaj has helped countless entrepreneurs navigate complex legal challenges, from structuring partnerships to protecting intellectual property. In this conversation, he shares the biggest legal mistakes business owners make—and how to avoid them.
Key takeaways include:
- Partnership Pitfalls: Why operating agreements are a must and how skipping one could cost you millions.
- Protecting Your Brand: When to trademark and copyright your business assets (and when it might be too late).
- The Reality of Business Growth: How to handle disputes, contracts, and scaling with the right legal foundation.
- Entrepreneurial Mindset: How intention, strategy, and surrounding yourself with the right people impact success.
This episode is a must-listen for business owners, entrepreneurs, and startups looking to avoid costly legal mistakes, protect their company, and set themselves up for long-term success.
Learn more about Pankaj Raval & Carbon Law Group:
Website: https://carbonlg.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pankajraval
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carbonlg
Learn more about Parag's business law firm: https://www.lawpla.com/
Discover more about Parag: https://www.paraglamin.com/
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From Crisis to Justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur were destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.
(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to From Crisis to Justice.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome back to From Crisis to Justice.
I'm your host, Parag Amin, and I'm joined
(00:43):
by a very special guestand friend, Pankaj Ravel.
Pankaj is an entrepreneur and lawyer.
He started his own law firmcalled Carbon Law Group.
He's driven by his desire to see hisclients develop world class businesses,
and he focuses on serving entrepreneursin small to medium sized companies.
(01:05):
Industries he serves with.
His law firminclude technology, eCommerce,
influencers, professionaland retail services and health care.
Welcome, Pankaj.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thanks, Parag.
Thank you for that very nice introduction.
So what made you get into the spaceand starting your own business
(01:25):
and starting your own law firmin the first place?
Is this something
that you always envisioned for yourself,or was this out of necessity?
What happened?
Oh, that's a great question. Yeah.
How what is
what is the genesis story of kind of whereyou were brought me to today?
I would say, you know, it's
I would like to say it's planned out,but it really wasn't.
(01:46):
You know, I went to law school
in sort of 2006 and graduated 2009at the bottom of the market.
Must by I think you a few years laterbut you were 2010
or a lot of you graduate just like yeah.
A couple of years later.
So you know2009 was one of the worst times
to graduate in law schoolI think in history.
And you know, in law school,they as you know,
(02:06):
they kind of they tell you, oh,you got to go to big law.
You got to that's a goal.
Big law and or a big firm, you know thatThat's like the promised land.
And what they don't tell you is that,you know, they grade on a curve and
all these earn money.
People are going to getthose opportunities.
Only certainamount of people are to get those jobs.
And even those people who didget those jobs that year actually got.
You asked to not come to not workfor a year or two.
(02:28):
They actually a lot of them
lost their offers or said,hey, we'll pay you something less,
But don't don't come this year to workbecause of how bad the market was.
So, you know, it was a tough time,but I ended up finding a job with a
friend of mine, dad, who was a prettyprominent lawyer in Arizona.
He I mean, he wasvery known looking at securities litigator
(02:49):
and because I was on probably partlybecause I was on the team
with his son for so many yearsand I've known him,
you know, he's like,yeah, come work for us.
Yeah, he was just starting a new firmat that time
and that gave me my first opportunity,kind of allowed me to cut my teeth
and get experience with a lot of different
areas of law securities,litigation, employment litigation,
a variety of things.
And I realized like,that's not really what I want to do.
(03:11):
And and then so after that first year,I realized, you know,
I want to be in California.
I had worked at MTV in law school,
and I said, okay,I want to come back to California.
I love the beach.
I love, you know, L.A., I love you know,I love everything about it.
So I motivated me to the California barright after the Arizona bar,
luckily passed the California bar and
(03:31):
and ended up moving out to California.
Just packed up myI decided to pack up my my jeep
one day and told my told my bosses that,hey, you know what?
Like, I appreciate,you know, other opportunities given me
and but I want to,you know, try try it out in L.A..
And immediatelyI remember one partner was like,
this is the stupidest thing you could do.
(03:52):
Like, what are you doing?
Like, do you know how many lawyersthere are in L.A.?
Do you
what do you think you're going to doout there in the worst market in history?
Like,what do you think is going to happen?
I said, you know what?
I don't know what's going to happen,but I do know it's going to happen
if I stay here.
And and I knew that I wouldn't be happyand I wanted
I wanted a bigger a bigger pond.
I wanted a bigger ocean to swim inand in LA was that
(04:14):
and and I had two cousins in L.A.
and came out, crashed on my cousin'scouch for about two weeks.
She was nice enough to allow me toto stay there and then eventually found
a place and and found a job in actuallythrough networking meeting people.
I actually found a job out here
with an entertainment lawyer.
So I was my first kind of job herecontracting for them,
(04:36):
did that for about a year,and I realized, you know,
I wasn't getting the experience I wanted,wasn't getting the mentoring I wanted.
So then I kind of lookedat other opportunities.
I ended up deciding to go out on my own.
Might as well be 2012 or so.
I was 11, just 12 and,you know, definitely
did not feel prepared,did not know what I was doing.
Definitely had a lot of impostersyndrome and and, you know, realistically,
(04:59):
I probably was an imposterbecause I had no idea what was going
on, you know,And but I knew that I loved to learn.
I knew I was willing to learn.
I rememberin my first job, even in Tucson,
you know, I ended up buying a likea clean subscription of on my own dollar.
And the guy who I likeyou bought it from is like,
(05:20):
I don't know anyone who's ever done thiswho buys it on their own dollar.
So like to to learn, you know, the lawand took it to continue the learning.
I said yeah because I mean obviouslyI still have a lot to learn in law school.
They don't teach you anythingabout being a lawyer, really.
They teach you how to analyze cases,but they don't teach you how
to actually be a lawyer, what that takes.
So so I ended upjust you continue to learn a lot,
(05:43):
you know, hone my skills eventually,you know, networking a lot in L.A.
and through meeting different people,got a few clients and
and then, you know,I ended up touring for Office Space
one day and I met another lawyer there,and him and I ended up working together,
him and I kind of hit it offand he's like, Oh, yeah, I need some help.
And I actually help build his website.
(06:03):
And like,he didn't know a thing about marketing.
So I use those skills, my designskills to help him.
And then he taught it
taught me like bankruptcy and real estatelaw, worked with him for a while
and then went out on my own and built out,you know, built my firm up again,
meeting some other people.
And I met I met these lawyersat random places like meditation retreats
and randomly out at networking events.
So that's how I kind of builtthe community here in L.A.
(06:26):
and through,you know, a lot of lot of nights of
going out, meeting people,which is what I enjoy.
I mean, even though you and I metin meditation
and meditation meeting, right,I think just kind of a serendipitous
meeting of all these different peoplebased on what your interests are.
You know, Brian brought me togetherwith great people and now, you know, 15
(06:47):
years later, I'm able to builda, you know, have a great firm
and be really proud of what we've doneand how we've been able to help.
But it's allit was all kind of serendipitous, too.
It's all just big.
I think it's about putting yourselfout there and and being willing
to kind of be rejected to to feel like,you know,
maybe you don't belongand to kind of sit with that discomfort.
(07:09):
I think, you know, you can reallyyou really get you a long way.
Yeah, I love that.
So it's very interesting.
And you talked about moving out hereand it kind of seemed serendipitous
that you ran into these people, butit also seemed intentional to some extent.
So can you talk a little bit about thatin terms of how important is intention
(07:30):
versus wanderingwhen you're trying to find your way,
whether it's starting a businessor choosing a life or career path?
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Because like, for example,
I don't know if you've seen Forrest Gump,but yeah, Have you seen Forrest Gump?
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.So there's there's the feather.
So for those of you who haven't seenForrest Gump, there's a feather.
That's a theme throughout the whole movie.
(07:51):
And there's a featherthat the wind blows here and there
and it kind of just wanders through lifeand somehow
Forrest Gumpand then that feather supposed to be
a metaphor for Forrest Gump lifeand that the wind somehow
always takes him to the perfect placeand everything just works out.
He invests in some fruit company,
as he calls it,and it turns out to be Apple,
and it doesn't have to worryabout money anymore.
(08:12):
And so there's that idea of everything
just kind of works itself outwithout any kind of intention.
It's just the windblowing that feather versus
also trying to intentionally seek outsome kind of meaningful experiences
or connectionsalong the way to make that progress.
Do you have any thoughts on that?Yeah, have a lot of thoughts.
(08:34):
I mean, it's a great it's a great point.
It's a great insight. I think,
you know,
when you talk about wonder,like there's a quote that comes to my mind
saying like, you know,not all, not all who wander are lost.
And I really like that, you know,just because just because we're wandering,
maybe because we to others, we may notseem like we have a path in life.
(08:56):
I think it's importantto have like a little bit of,
you know, of
compassion for ourselvesand also giving ourselves, like,
that ability to wander
without feeling all we have to know alwayswhere we're going, because sometimes
you have to trust the path andand I think that's really true in life.
You know, you have to trust the path.
And even when the path is not alwaysclear, I mean, I know that was it for me.
(09:19):
And I think that kind of dates backto even earlier in my life where
after undergrad I went to India for ayear and did a year in India.
It kind of a program similar to PeaceCorps call India Corps
and everyone, you know, a lot of mylike my relatives, my you know,
my family was like, what are you doing?
You know, go get a job.
We'll get married. You know, that's thethat's the path.
(09:40):
That's the path everyone knows.
Why don't you go do that?
You know?
And I said, you know,I felt a calling to to go to India
to learn more about myselfand to help people to serve.
And I said, you know what?
Other time in my life am I going to havethis opportunity to do this
without any kind of strings, you know,without any any real major responsibility?
These I was so fortunate that, you know,I was able to to have that time.
(10:02):
I said I got into law school,you know, and I deferred my mission a year
and I said, I'm doing this.
And even when I didn't get acceptedthe program, I was banking on it
because said, oh, you know,we don't have a
we don't have a project for youspecifically.
I said, I'm coming, I'm coming anyways.
And I think that was this because like,
I knew so much thatthat's what I wanted to do.
And I felt like, you know, I felt very,very lucky to have that, that clarity
(10:25):
that this is what I want to do.
It's going to happen no matter what.
And and I did it.
And I didn't have a real clear planwhen I got to India.
You know, I have family there.
So I stayed to spend some time with themand then and then went to on the board
and worked with the Corps.
They actually broughtme on to work on their staff.
I got
to do the whole like orientationwith all the other fellows,
you know, became really good friendswith everyone,
(10:47):
you know, all the fellows there,and then went on to other, you know,
working on other projects from therejust through meeting people.
So the things, you know, things dowork out, you know, like
even when you don't have a clear plan,I think being open to
what is in front of you to to, you know,sometimes we I think in today's world
it's so easy to planand that we lose that serendipity of life.
(11:07):
You know, like,what are you know, who is this?
You're going to go to a bar one night
and who's this random personyou're going to meet?
You know, it could be, you know, someone,someone really important your life,
you know, like,
you know,
you and I met at a meditation meeting,you know, you and I both happened to share
that interest and became really goodfriends, you know, in my wedding.
You know, we we've become close friendsfor for so many years.
But who knows, right?
(11:27):
Until unless you do it,unless you show up.
And I'm a strong believer in showing up,you know, like in life and show,
but not just show up,but show up with like,
everything you've got, like, you know,don't don't half assed showing up.
You know, I have a mantrathat I use like a gratitude journal
saying, like, I want to create magicin every interaction.
And that's how I sortof approached it for, for
(11:49):
many years now.
And I think that's reallywhat you try to like.
Don't just show up with people,but give them everything you got
and then see what happens. Right?
And let like the ethos, as you know, youcan't be attached to the fruits of that,
but you can be attached to what you doand to give all you can.
And and that's how I live my life.
And honestly, it's been you know,I've I've been lucky
(12:10):
to meet a lot of really great peoplealong the way.
Yeah, I love that. And I agree with that.
There's an aspect of falling in lovewith the work,
falling in love with the stuffthat you're doing and chasing
that makes things meaningful.
So I've been asked the question,as I'm sure you have, is
as I'm sure many of the listenershave at some point or pondered it of
(12:33):
what's the meaning to life.
And I think inherentlythere really isn't one.
It's and that's the beauty of it.
It's not depressing,but in fact it's the opposite.
It's beautifulbecause ultimately the meaning for life
is whatevermeaning you choose to assign to it.
So I think there's some aspect ofbeing of service to others, helping others
and helping others find their own path.
(12:53):
And on that journeyyou find your own path,
and that is ultimatelywhat brings meaning.
And that could be different,different avenues for different people.
One of the avenues you've chosenis, is being of service to entrepreneurs
and helping them. So
what are some of the common pitfalls
(13:14):
that come in for entrepreneursthat if they had just known this,
that they could have avoideda huge lawsuit
or have avoidedlosing their company to their partner
or have avoided a very expensive partnerdispute?
Yeah. Oh, man.
So this is so very I think you and I dealwith this all the time, right?
(13:38):
I mean, you and I, it's coolbecause you and I deal with it
from different, different angles, Right?
Like,I think the problem and, you know, for
from my perspectiveas a transactional lawyer, you know,
I kind of help clientswhen they're getting started,
when they're like thinking about,okay, you know,
you know, partnership agreements,operating agreements, for example,
like with an LLC, you know,if you have an LLC
(14:01):
and there's more than one of you,you know, do you have a partner or three
it gets
I think it's gets exponentially more
important to have an operating agreementas you have more partners, though.
And, and
because just the like the challengesthat, that the issues that could arise
are just go up exponentiallybecause not only is it like, okay,
one partner, you guys have a dispute,
(14:21):
but now there's likeif you have two other partners
now there's like so many more permutationsof potential issues that could arise.
So I thinkhaving a great operating agreement
or a partnership agreement,just something in place
that can help really understand,okay, what are your goals?
And and if you're not sure, like, oh,you know, all agreements are complicated.
I agree.
Like some of them are unnecessarilycomplicated, but like, fundamentally,
(14:43):
like, what are you trying to do?What you know, what are your goals?
What's each person going to do?
What are the responsibilities?
What happens if it doesn't work out?
How are you going to unwind it?
You know, those are the kind of
the basic questions that I think everybodyneeds to be answering and thinking about
and writing downbefore they go into any venture.
Because once you're in, you know, yes,problems arise if you're not making money.
(15:06):
But honestly, I've seen more problemsarise when you do make a lot of money.
You know, I've seen that'swhere the big, big disputes are happening.
Is that okay?They did really, really well.
And, you know, I had a client in therein the health care space.
You know, they're in litigation today.
You know, two years later,they've probably spent $700,000
each on litigation because they didn'thave these agreements in place.
(15:28):
So we drafted a great offering agreement.
But one of the partners refused to sign itbecause he was doing very shady things.
You know,
he was doing very shady things that thatthat other partner was not on board with.
But unfortunately, this guy's true colors.
So like came aboutonce they started making money,
then he started hiring family.
He started doing all these thingsthat, you know, are generally a
(15:48):
no go and and, and yeah, it's hardbecause, you know,
what do you do in those peoplewith those situations?
The people are just inherently like
I think untruthfulor an inherently corrupt in some ways.
They, you know, they take these actions.
But I think having good contracts,having a good lawyer like you do to
to hold people accountable is really,really important because otherwise,
(16:11):
you know, otherwise people can kind of rawroughshod over people.
And and and that's whythat's why we have the law
to protect those those interests.
Yeah, absolutely.
So so one, if you have a partner
or partners, get an operating agreement,get them to sign it.
Certainly talk through the issuesand the problems.
(16:33):
And what about what can you sayabout the intellectual property
aspects of thingswhen does it make sense to try to protect
a trademark or a copyright, or
is somebody doing it too early?
Like they don'teven really have a business yet
and they're spending all this timeand money on legal?
Or is it truly ever too earlyto spend time and money on legal?
(16:55):
Yeah, no, it was a great question.
I think, you know,obviously we are somewhat,
you know, partial because of what we do.
But I think honestly, even even thenbecause like I always I think
I think like you, we always treatour client is like, okay,
you know, if this is my business,what would I do? Right?
And and, you know,you and I have our own businesses,
(17:16):
you know, real estateI other startups I work on.
And I kind of treated the same way.
So I would never tell a client to dosomething that I wouldn't do personally.
And I mean, I invest in trademarks.
I invest in copyrights early onbecause you know that, you know, patents,
if you have a
you know, if you have some inventionbecause, you know, it serves two purposes.
(17:36):
One is it gives you the rights,
but also make sure that you'renot infringing on someone else's rights.
So that's really important.
Both those both those elementsprotect your rights and create
some asset for youthat you can actually monetize,
that you can scale, thatyou can do something with in the future.
I mean,
the value in licensing is amazing,you know, like especially with a trademark
or a copyright.
You know, Disney did$60 billion in licensing alone last year.
(18:01):
60 billion like I went toI went to a licensing expo in Vegas.
And you just see all these thingspeople are doing
because they've been able to buildbrands and build,
you know, really cool worldsthat now can be licensed.
And it's a big business and I thinkit's only going to get bigger as as we,
you know, as technology growsand the world ahead.
So if you have a kindof creative ideas, building,
(18:24):
building really cool like
IP is going to be super valuablein the years ahead.
Look at Marvel, look at you know,I look at all these comics.
Those are just those those are IP.
But their value grew exponentially inthe last ten years because of licensing.
So I would say do itsoon, do it early, get it cleared.
I mean, just todayI had someone new who came to me,
(18:46):
got a cease and desist letterbecause they didn't register the trademark
and someone else registered the same name
and they said, Hey, that person sent themmany emails or letters saying, Hey,
you know, stop using this name because wewe have a trademark to it.
Little this person knowthat their trademark rights are actually
are are not as strong as they thinkbecause my client used the name earlier.
So if you're an earlier user,
(19:08):
then actually you have rights overeven someone who went with the trademark.
But but again, thisthis person who didn't have a lawyer,
who was a trademark lawyer,he had a lawyer,
I looked himup, was like a real estate lawyer,
did something like, youknow, something else and sent the letter.
But then when you hire actuallysomeone who knows what they're doing,
you know, you're like, realize, oh, wait,
they actually have a lot more rightsthen than they realize.
(19:28):
And, you know,I help them navigate that that issue.
So I think it's really like hiring,you know,
hiring professionals with the right,you know, background.
You know,
I'm not going to say I'm I'm goingto tell you anything about family law.
I wouldn't even dare to tell you.
Think about family law,because I don't that's not my expertise.
But like we do, we've been doingtrademark copyright and like,
you know, corporate law for many years.
(19:49):
And that's where we really have been ableto help a lot of our clients.
Yeah, 100%. So when it comes to
protecting
IP, it sounds like your idea ismaybe even protect it before
somebody is generating a lot of revenuebecause maybe at that point it's too late.
(20:10):
Yeah, Yeah.
So like, for example,like into it with trademarks, you know,
we do a lot of trademark work hereenforcing protection.
So like with trademarks, we, you can filesomething called intent to use trademark,
but that's evenwhen you're not even using it yet,
but yet you have your intentto commercialize in the future.
So if we can actually filean intent to use application,
(20:33):
which kind of saves your spoton the USPTO trademark registrar.
So now if anyone were to file a mark,even if they're using it
after you had your intent to use Mark,you still have rights over that person.
I would say if you have a big brandlike we work a lot of cosmetics
brands and cosmetics.
Obviouslybrand is so important with cosmetics,
you know, skin care,
(20:53):
all these different areasand and not easy to find good trademarks.
So one thing what we do iswe do kind of an exhaustive, comprehensive
name clearance search before you even filethe trademark, because what people don't
realize, like, oh, they they find a nameor they fall in love with it.
But unfortunately,
to be the bearer of bad newsfor one of my clients
who was building this,you know, global trademark
(21:15):
skin care brand, she's a surgeon,
You know, she really, you know,planning on investing a lot of this.
And I told her,
unfortunately, you know, the nameshe chose, there's going to be problems
and she's better offchoosing a slightly different name
then trying to push this one forwardbecause the amount of money
she's going to spend in legal fees tryingto get this pushed forward, even if we're
even if we win those argumentsand there's no guarantee that we would,
(21:38):
it's goingto be detrimental to her business.
So that's the business strategy.
Also, we we provide our clients not just,oh, yeah, this is good or bad or this,
this will make it won't.
But like, what's thewhat's the broader goal of this?
How do youwhere do you see your business going
and how do you want to use your mark?
Because then we also discussedglobal protection, because not only do
we want to look at the U.S., but okay,she wants to make this a global brand.
(22:03):
And what people don't realize sometimesis that like in trademark law,
you have to file trademarksin every country.
You can't just have a global trademark.
So we have to go through and see,
okay, what are the right countriesyou want to use?
Do we want to filesomething called using YPO, which is like
our international system,
which has about
like 100 countries, or dowe want to go to each country separately
(22:25):
where we work with local counciland each of those countries
to file those trademarks?
So those are different questionsthat need to be answered and looked at,
but like also taken care of early onbecause, you know, you probably not
surprised, but like, you know, the momentyou launch around the U.S., China,
India, other places are watchingand they're going to file those marks.
They're very quickly.
(22:45):
And now you're you'reyou're in a tough spot.
I know Applebranded these problems in China.
I mean, you know, without a doubtyou will have problems in those other
countries if you start building a brandthat's getting it kind of right here,
because someone's waiting for that for youto for them to file a trademark there
so they can charge you a lot of money toto use that mark.
(23:07):
So I would say if you're planningon building a big business, a
global business, think about filing early,filing soon, doing a clearance,
but also then looking at the globalopportunities, the global
implications of your mark
and where you want to file for that
mark and other countrieswhere you plan to expand
because you need to act quickly in thosecountries as well, because those are
(23:29):
you know, hereI said you can do you can file,
I intend to use, but but you still have toshow use in commerce there.
It's just first to file whoever'sthe first to file a marketing letter.
What No matter use or not, you get rights.
So there's slightly different paradigms
as well in terms of trademark lawin those other countries.
Yeah.
So if somebody wants to go worldwide,is there a benefit?
(23:50):
I mean, it sounds like the benefitto registering with,
I think you said YPO, Right?
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
So registering with YPO could be it'smaybe
it's a one shot, you get itand all these different countries.
But the flipside could bethat if it's registered in
any one of those countries,you might not get YPO out registration.
Is that kind of the cost benefit analysis?
Yeah, there's a few issues.
(24:11):
Like so the reason why oftentimeswe don't go through YPO is that also
if someone's a challenger, Mark,it's much easier for them to challenge it
like centrally with through YPOas opposed to each and every country.
So we get someone to try to challengein specific countries.
They have to go to that country,hire a lawyer there and challenge it.
And with YPO, they can highly they canchallenge it through that central body.
(24:32):
And then if you have a problem with itsomewhere or let's say even,
you know, your US mark is challengedand something happens to it
that could jeopardize
your your YPO mark because you're YPOMark was based on your U.S.
Mark But that's why we're alwaysa little bit hesitant to to file using YPO
though you can save some moneyand there's some fees you can save.
(24:55):
There is a cost benefit there.
And that's why we usually most mostbig brands, most companies
will work with local counseljust directly for the filings.
But that doesn't mean thatthat doesn't say that's always bad.
But a lot of a lot of times we will work
directly with local councilin each country.
(25:16):
Yeah. Okay.
And so interms of entrepreneurship in life, what's
what'ssome of the best advice you've received,
whether it's in entrepreneurship or lifethat you wish you had known earlier
or that you thinkwould be really helpful for listeners?
Are some of the best advice?
I feel like
some of the best advice is reallyno one knows what they're doing.
(25:40):
Like in entrepreneurship,it's it's, you know, everyone
everyone is very good at faking itall times,
you know, and, and
and everything.
Like there's a great book I have not read,but I love the title called
Everything is figured out by this.
I think Marie, Fiorello
and I should read it, actually.
(26:01):
But you know, I love I love the idea.
I love the premise that and I do believeit's true.
Everything is figure out.
Even if you make mistakesin entrepreneurship,
usually nothing is fatal.
You know, nothing is fatalthat you can't address or fix.
So you even know in like in in law, right.
You get a loss.You know, people get lawsuits.
And the first time you see lawsuits,very scary, right?
For anyone to get itget hit with a lawsuit by that,
(26:24):
you know, as you as a lawyer,you know, you litigate every day
and you realize, you know what,Like everything can be figured out.
Like,you know, we can maybe find a settlement.
We can find some way to negotiate this.
You know, if we have to enforce someone'srights, you know, we we help them.
You help them do that.
Similarly, like with us, you know,if there's a dispute
or if there's some issue that ariseand it can all be
(26:45):
you can all be figured out, you know,it's understanding, okay, we're all humans
and we're all trying to likeeveryone has their own interests.
And how can I try to figure outwhat this other person wants
and how do wehow do we find some common ground there?
So I would say like, yeah,everything is figure out a ball and, and,
and entrepreneurship and then
and then also like do to believe
(27:08):
like a kind of cheesybut like to believe more yourself
like it's is easy to doubt yourselfas an entrepreneur too.
So easy to doubt what you're doing
especially when you're doing somethingdifferent and something not, you know,
you're, you're not following
the kind of the beaten path,you know, example is, you know, when I
when I first went out on my own again,like launching my firm,
(27:32):
it was like early years of Yelpand no, no laws really on Yelp.
And I had a I had a shared office
suite with two other lawyers,brilliant guys, really, really nice guys.
You know, we got along well.
You know, they went to better law schools.
To me, objectively,probably smarter than me.
And I said, you know, I'm goingto put myself on Yelp and see, you know,
(27:54):
see what happens there. They're like,man, don't do it.
Don't do it.
You know, you're goingto get a bad review, then you're screwed.
I said, You know what?
I'm already going to, you know,let's let's see what happens.
Let's just see what happens, you know,because I wasn't really busy.
You know,I had way too much free time on my hands.
I wasn't as busy.I wanted to be. So I put myself on Yelp.
I just I just created a a page,you know, just Harvard Law Group page.
(28:16):
Or maybe at that point,I was actually law office of Pankaj Raval.
And let's see, you know, what happens.
And just lo and behold, a day later,I guess I get a call
and it was $1,000 client.
I mean, without doing anything.
And and I was like,okay, this is this is something.
So I started saying, okay,I reached out to all my friends,
all the people I had helpedin the last month or two.
I said, Hey,
you know, if you hadif you appreciated this, please,
(28:38):
they'll give me a reviewor the help you need.
You'll find more clients.
People started putting themreviews on Yelp
and all of a sudden I was like,God had the most like most
reviews out of any kind of businesslawyer in the area.
And it started just bringing tonsof business like in in back in the day.
Unfortunately now I think Yelphas filed a lawsuit against Google,
but at that point,the CEO of Yelp was insane like it was.
(29:02):
So it was only show like topone or two result.
Whenever you search anything, Google Yelpwould come up, you click on Yelp
and then I would be top because I would bethe top business lawyer.
You know, in thatin that search though, people,
you know, it's like, don't underestimate
yourself, don't underestimate know,trying things, trying and failing.
Right.
(29:22):
I think it's it's a clichein the tech world like fail faster.
But really, you know, I find myself whenI'm not progressing as much, when I'm not
my my
my business not growing is when I'mI'm I'm fearful.
It's when I'm stuck in like fear.
I'm stuck in like,you know, worry or doubt
that this is a good idea,but really, like, test it all.
(29:42):
I test tested, it's all about testing.
And then and then, you know,getting, getting, getting feedback
test and feedback.
That's that's entrepreneurship,that's business.
Don't just like sit in your headthinking, oh, or analyzing
get out there, test things.
Try things.
Yes you may lose some money orbut you know but you got to do it right.
I mean I knowyou got a lot of good stories about this.
I know you you've invested a lot in yourbusiness and invested a lot in growth.
(30:06):
You know, I love to hear your thoughts on,you know, what
what is the best, best thingyou've ever heard And some examples.
Yeah,
well, I one, I agree
with you in terms of confidence yourself,
the willingness to be able toto potentially fail I think is important.
But I think I think it's importantbecause I've known you for like over
(30:30):
ten yearsnow, and I know how you mean it, that
I want to make sure that the listenersunderstand it because in terms of
fail faster or or
everything, figure out a goal
that that still requiresa high level of dedication and commitment.
This is not to go back to somethingearlier you had
(30:52):
said is isthis is not about showing up halfway.
This is about showing up completely,
putting in the complete time,the complete effort.
And then if for somereason it doesn't work out,
then that's that's different.
But the reality is, I think, frankly,I think the majority of people don't
(31:13):
put in that kind of time and commitmentbecause it's hard, it's uncomfortable.
And we live in a society these dayswhere things are extremely comfortable,
Everything from
for the vast majority of us,especially if somebody is listening
or watching this podcast,
things are pretty comfortable, relativelyspeaking, compared to human history.
And I think that that that breedsa certain level of
(31:37):
satisfaction, a certain level of
of playing it safe, a certain level
of of not being willing to risk more
for fear that you might lose somethingor you might look bad.
And I think it says it says
a decent amount for somebodyto say, well, well, to the average,
(31:57):
the biggest public
fear on average is public speaking.
So think about what kind of societyor country or world we live in.
If that's the biggest fear,
I don't know of a single personwho's died from public speaking.
And yet that's the biggest fear.
And it totally makes sensethat people are terrified of
being embarrassed or going on a stage
(32:18):
or giving a speech or whateverand being very terrified about it.
I remember as a baby lawyer,
I had not planned on becoming a litigator,
but I found that once I started doing itthat I kind of liked it.
But it still terrified meevery single time, whether I was
getting up to even give a 32nd pitchat like
(32:41):
a meeting, like a B and I or pro visors,if who I am and what I do.
I would rehearse the night beforeand I would rehearse the morning of
and I still remember my heart
beating in my chestand being very nervous.
So the first time I went into court
and I didn't really knowwhat I was supposed to do,
so I just got the back of the lineand watched
(33:01):
what everybody else did of like,where am I supposed to check in?
What am I supposed to exactly say?
And so I think there's a big partof figuring things out,
like you said,but taking cues from the environment
and being willing and confident,able enough to to be able
to trust yourself, that you'llyou'll eventually figure it out.
So I think
(33:22):
my advice to everybody would be like,
truly commit, truly, truly, truly commit,because
with the resources that we have accessto these days, certainly
if you're listening or watching this,listening to you or watching this podcast,
the resources at your disposalare immense.
Literally, the the vast of human
(33:43):
knowledge in historyis at your fingertips.
That's an incredible time to be alive.
And so
I would just encourage
everybodyto embrace the opportunities, despite
all the negativity in the mediaand all the negative things we hear
about on a daily basis, which certainlythere are a lot of, I think that there's
(34:06):
frankly far, far more opportunities
that people can take advantage of.
If you just pay attention and look around,you'll find them
because they are immense.
I agree.
Yeah.
Now, you brought up a really good pointabout I think the work.
You know, I think you made a really goodpoint about just the importance of,
you know, putting in the work.
(34:26):
Because you're right,I think you and I both get along too,
because, like, you know,we both value hard work.
We both put in the effort.
We know that,
you know, we I think we're both, you know,very, very positive, optimistic people.
But we know we're notwe're not naive to think that,
oh, it's going to happen because we'rejust because we're positive, optimistic.
You know, I always like,you know, impressed with, you know,
(34:47):
you getting up at 5 a.m., working and mewalking and then, you know, exercising.
And like nowI try to wake up early and work out, too.
And and and, you know,it keeps you keeps you, like, sane, right?
Like for me,I have to exercise almost every day.
Otherwise, you know,the stress can get you right.
Like there's a lot of stressin life and family and we got kids.
So I think taking care of yourselfis so important, too.
(35:08):
That's where like mindfulness,things like that come in.
But like, yeah, you're right.
Like putting in the work and like,you know, and pushing yourself further
and having a good,
like being, having resources around you
that will also helpyou push push yourself further. Right?
I think you invest in you and I investedin, you know, concealing it.
I think actually invest in learning andand coaching and things like that.
(35:29):
And I think that's alsowhy we've been able to, like, grow our
our firms is that, you know,we're we're not just complacent here,
hoping for things to get better,but we are really
pushing ourselves to like,how can we get better,
how can we learn from othersand each other, like having a good group
of people around you to continueto, like, bounce ideas off of and
(35:51):
and in creating that kind of mastermindthat, you know, that we have as well.
So I would say anyone listening,you know, find find your people
and then and the people who don't serve,you know, who do not make you
be better or do not helpyou get better, like let them go.
Like, you have to be really, really
(36:11):
persistent and and
intentional about the people around youand and who you want to with.
And if those people are not helping you,then let them go and
find the right people.
And those people will show upas you continue to like do do the work.
Yes. Yeah.
And that includes whether it's friends,
(36:32):
whether it's professionals on your team.
You know, the reality isyou might outgrow one or both.
And the reality is, is when you feel that,you'll know, you'll sense it
and you feel like something is offand it's time to make a change.
And a lot of timeswe want to stick to what's familiar
because what's unknown can be scarybecause by definition it's unknown.
(36:53):
It could be worse than what you've got,but those trade offs, at least in my own
life, personal and professional,have been phenomenal and fantastic.
The vast, vast majority of the time.
So on average, it's almost always,
almost always beenan upgrade and a benefit so
(37:14):
far where if people want to find outmore about you
or your firm, where can they find outmore about you or your firm?
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn.
If you just you know, if you search.
Pankaj Rovell, he and K.J.
last names are available on LinkedIn.
It's a good place to find me.
Also, our website is CarbonLG Ecom on Instagram, it's at carbon.
(37:37):
LG on Tik Tok, I'm at virtual GC.
I think also mymy name to On top will show up
and, and then also, yeah,we have like a link tree, we have a,
we have a YouTube channelwith some videos that you know, talk about
of forming all these differentdifferent elements of forming a business
that's a punkishrival, business, lawyer and attorney.
(37:59):
And also there's carbon,a carbon law group on on YouTube.
So it should be pretty easyto get in touch
if you ever want to get in touchor if you have questions.
Yeah, we do focused mainlyon transactional IP work and we'd love
to love to help, love to chatabout getting your business started.
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining and sharingsome of your worldly wisdom with us. And
(38:22):
pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you for having me, man.
Yeah, absolutely.
To the listeners, thank you allso much for joining and tuning in today.
If you're not already,
please make sure you like and subscribeso you know where the next episode
is coming out.
Thanks for joining.
Hi, I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From Crisis to Justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur were destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.
(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to From Crisis to Justice.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome back to From Crisis to Justice.
I'm your host, Parag Amin, and I'm joined
(00:43):
by a very special guestand friend, Pankaj Ravel.
Pankaj is an entrepreneur and lawyer.
He started his own law firmcalled Carbon Law Group.
He's driven by his desire to see hisclients develop world class businesses,
and he focuses on serving entrepreneursin small to medium sized companies.
(01:05):
Industries he serves with.
His law firminclude technology, eCommerce,
influencers, professionaland retail services and health care.
Welcome, Pankaj.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Thanks, Parag.
Thank you for that very nice introduction.
So what made you get into the spaceand starting your own business
(01:25):
and starting your own law firmin the first place?
Is this something
that you always envisioned for yourself,or was this out of necessity?
What happened?
Oh, that's a great question. Yeah.
How what is
what is the genesis story of kind of whereyou were brought me to today?
I would say, you know, it's
I would like to say it's planned out,but it really wasn't.
(01:46):
You know, I went to law school
in sort of 2006 and graduated 2009at the bottom of the market.
Must by I think you a few years laterbut you were 2010
or a lot of you graduate just like yeah.
A couple of years later.
So you know2009 was one of the worst times
to graduate in law schoolI think in history.
And you know, in law school,they as you know,
(02:06):
they kind of they tell you, oh,you got to go to big law.
You got to that's a goal.
Big law and or a big firm, you know thatThat's like the promised land.
And what they don't tell you is that,you know, they grade on a curve and
all these earn money.
People are going to getthose opportunities.
Only certainamount of people are to get those jobs.
And even those people who didget those jobs that year actually got.
You asked to not come to not workfor a year or two.
(02:28):
They actually a lot of them
lost their offers or said,hey, we'll pay you something less,
But don't don't come this year to workbecause of how bad the market was.
So, you know, it was a tough time,but I ended up finding a job with a
friend of mine, dad, who was a prettyprominent lawyer in Arizona.
He I mean, he wasvery known looking at securities litigator
(02:49):
and because I was on probably partlybecause I was on the team
with his son for so many yearsand I've known him,
you know, he's like,yeah, come work for us.
Yeah, he was just starting a new firmat that time
and that gave me my first opportunity,kind of allowed me to cut my teeth
and get experience with a lot of different
areas of law securities,litigation, employment litigation,
a variety of things.
And I realized like,that's not really what I want to do.
(03:11):
And and then so after that first year,I realized, you know,
I want to be in California.
I had worked at MTV in law school,
and I said, okay,I want to come back to California.
I love the beach.
I love, you know, L.A., I love you know,I love everything about it.
So I motivated me to the California barright after the Arizona bar,
luckily passed the California bar and
(03:31):
and ended up moving out to California.
Just packed up myI decided to pack up my my jeep
one day and told my told my bosses that,hey, you know what?
Like, I appreciate,you know, other opportunities given me
and but I want to,you know, try try it out in L.A..
And immediatelyI remember one partner was like,
this is the stupidest thing you could do.
(03:52):
Like, what are you doing?
Like, do you know how many lawyersthere are in L.A.?
Do you
what do you think you're going to doout there in the worst market in history?
Like,what do you think is going to happen?
I said, you know what?
I don't know what's going to happen,but I do know it's going to happen
if I stay here.
And and I knew that I wouldn't be happyand I wanted
I wanted a bigger a bigger pond.
I wanted a bigger ocean to swim inand in LA was that
(04:14):
and and I had two cousins in L.A.
and came out, crashed on my cousin'scouch for about two weeks.
She was nice enough to allow me toto stay there and then eventually found
a place and and found a job in actuallythrough networking meeting people.
I actually found a job out here
with an entertainment lawyer.
So I was my first kind of job herecontracting for them,
(04:36):
did that for about a year,and I realized, you know,
I wasn't getting the experience I wanted,wasn't getting the mentoring I wanted.
So then I kind of lookedat other opportunities.
I ended up deciding to go out on my own.
Might as well be 2012 or so.
I was 11, just 12 and,you know, definitely
did not feel prepared,did not know what I was doing.
Definitely had a lot of impostersyndrome and and, you know, realistically,
(04:59):
I probably was an imposterbecause I had no idea what was going
on, you know,And but I knew that I loved to learn.
I knew I was willing to learn.
I rememberin my first job, even in Tucson,
you know, I ended up buying a likea clean subscription of on my own dollar.
And the guy who I likeyou bought it from is like,
(05:20):
I don't know anyone who's ever done thiswho buys it on their own dollar.
So like to to learn, you know, the lawand took it to continue the learning.
I said yeah because I mean obviouslyI still have a lot to learn in law school.
They don't teach you anythingabout being a lawyer, really.
They teach you how to analyze cases,but they don't teach you how
to actually be a lawyer, what that takes.
So so I ended upjust you continue to learn a lot,
(05:43):
you know, hone my skills eventually,you know, networking a lot in L.A.
and through meeting different people,got a few clients and
and then, you know,I ended up touring for Office Space
one day and I met another lawyer there,and him and I ended up working together,
him and I kind of hit it offand he's like, Oh, yeah, I need some help.
And I actually help build his website.
(06:03):
And like,he didn't know a thing about marketing.
So I use those skills, my designskills to help him.
And then he taught it
taught me like bankruptcy and real estatelaw, worked with him for a while
and then went out on my own and built out,you know, built my firm up again,
meeting some other people.
And I met I met these lawyersat random places like meditation retreats
and randomly out at networking events.
So that's how I kind of builtthe community here in L.A.
(06:26):
and through,you know, a lot of lot of nights of
going out, meeting people,which is what I enjoy.
I mean, even though you and I metin meditation
and meditation meeting, right,I think just kind of a serendipitous
meeting of all these different peoplebased on what your interests are.
You know, Brian brought me togetherwith great people and now, you know, 15
(06:47):
years later, I'm able to builda, you know, have a great firm
and be really proud of what we've doneand how we've been able to help.
But it's allit was all kind of serendipitous, too.
It's all just big.
I think it's about putting yourselfout there and and being willing
to kind of be rejected to to feel like,you know,
maybe you don't belongand to kind of sit with that discomfort.
(07:09):
I think, you know, you can reallyyou really get you a long way.
Yeah, I love that.
So it's very interesting.
And you talked about moving out hereand it kind of seemed serendipitous
that you ran into these people, butit also seemed intentional to some extent.
So can you talk a little bit about thatin terms of how important is intention
(07:30):
versus wanderingwhen you're trying to find your way,
whether it's starting a businessor choosing a life or career path?
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Because like, for example,
I don't know if you've seen Forrest Gump,but yeah, Have you seen Forrest Gump?
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.So there's there's the feather.
So for those of you who haven't seenForrest Gump, there's a feather.
That's a theme throughout the whole movie.
(07:51):
And there's a featherthat the wind blows here and there
and it kind of just wanders through lifeand somehow
Forrest Gumpand then that feather supposed to be
a metaphor for Forrest Gump lifeand that the wind somehow
always takes him to the perfect placeand everything just works out.
He invests in some fruit company,
as he calls it,and it turns out to be Apple,
and it doesn't have to worryabout money anymore.
(08:12):
And so there's that idea of everything
just kind of works itself outwithout any kind of intention.
It's just the windblowing that feather versus
also trying to intentionally seek outsome kind of meaningful experiences
or connectionsalong the way to make that progress.
Do you have any thoughts on that?Yeah, have a lot of thoughts.
(08:34):
I mean, it's a great it's a great point.
It's a great insight. I think,
you know,
when you talk about wonder,like there's a quote that comes to my mind
saying like, you know,not all, not all who wander are lost.
And I really like that, you know,just because just because we're wandering,
maybe because we to others, we may notseem like we have a path in life.
(08:56):
I think it's importantto have like a little bit of,
you know, of
compassion for ourselvesand also giving ourselves, like,
that ability to wander
without feeling all we have to know alwayswhere we're going, because sometimes
you have to trust the path andand I think that's really true in life.
You know, you have to trust the path.
And even when the path is not alwaysclear, I mean, I know that was it for me.
(09:19):
And I think that kind of dates backto even earlier in my life where
after undergrad I went to India for ayear and did a year in India.
It kind of a program similar to PeaceCorps call India Corps
and everyone, you know, a lot of mylike my relatives, my you know,
my family was like, what are you doing?
You know, go get a job.
We'll get married. You know, that's thethat's the path.
(09:40):
That's the path everyone knows.
Why don't you go do that?
You know?
And I said, you know,I felt a calling to to go to India
to learn more about myselfand to help people to serve.
And I said, you know what?
Other time in my life am I going to havethis opportunity to do this
without any kind of strings, you know,without any any real major responsibility?
These I was so fortunate that, you know,I was able to to have that time.
(10:02):
I said I got into law school,you know, and I deferred my mission a year
and I said, I'm doing this.
And even when I didn't get acceptedthe program, I was banking on it
because said, oh, you know,we don't have a
we don't have a project for youspecifically.
I said, I'm coming, I'm coming anyways.
And I think that was this because like,
I knew so much thatthat's what I wanted to do.
And I felt like, you know, I felt very,very lucky to have that, that clarity
(10:25):
that this is what I want to do.
It's going to happen no matter what.
And and I did it.
And I didn't have a real clear planwhen I got to India.
You know, I have family there.
So I stayed to spend some time with themand then and then went to on the board
and worked with the Corps.
They actually broughtme on to work on their staff.
I got
to do the whole like orientationwith all the other fellows,
you know, became really good friendswith everyone,
(10:47):
you know, all the fellows there,and then went on to other, you know,
working on other projects from therejust through meeting people.
So the things, you know, things dowork out, you know, like
even when you don't have a clear plan,I think being open to
what is in front of you to to, you know,sometimes we I think in today's world
it's so easy to planand that we lose that serendipity of life.
(11:07):
You know, like,what are you know, who is this?
You're going to go to a bar one night
and who's this random personyou're going to meet?
You know, it could be, you know, someone,someone really important your life,
you know, like,
you know,
you and I met at a meditation meeting,you know, you and I both happened to share
that interest and became really goodfriends, you know, in my wedding.
You know, we we've become close friendsfor for so many years.
But who knows, right?
(11:27):
Until unless you do it,unless you show up.
And I'm a strong believer in showing up,you know, like in life and show,
but not just show up,but show up with like,
everything you've got, like, you know,don't don't half assed showing up.
You know, I have a mantrathat I use like a gratitude journal
saying, like, I want to create magicin every interaction.
And that's how I sortof approached it for, for
(11:49):
many years now.
And I think that's reallywhat you try to like.
Don't just show up with people,but give them everything you got
and then see what happens. Right?
And let like the ethos, as you know, youcan't be attached to the fruits of that,
but you can be attached to what you doand to give all you can.
And and that's how I live my life.
And honestly, it's been you know,I've I've been lucky
(12:10):
to meet a lot of really great peoplealong the way.
Yeah, I love that. And I agree with that.
There's an aspect of falling in lovewith the work,
falling in love with the stuffthat you're doing and chasing
that makes things meaningful.
So I've been asked the question,as I'm sure you have, is
as I'm sure many of the listenershave at some point or pondered it of
(12:33):
what's the meaning to life.
And I think inherentlythere really isn't one.
It's and that's the beauty of it.
It's not depressing,but in fact it's the opposite.
It's beautifulbecause ultimately the meaning for life
is whatevermeaning you choose to assign to it.
So I think there's some aspect ofbeing of service to others, helping others
and helping others find their own path.
(12:53):
And on that journeyyou find your own path,
and that is ultimatelywhat brings meaning.
And that could be different,different avenues for different people.
One of the avenues you've chosenis, is being of service to entrepreneurs
and helping them. So
what are some of the common pitfalls
(13:14):
that come in for entrepreneursthat if they had just known this,
that they could have avoideda huge lawsuit
or have avoidedlosing their company to their partner
or have avoided a very expensive partnerdispute?
Yeah. Oh, man.
So this is so very I think you and I dealwith this all the time, right?
(13:38):
I mean, you and I, it's coolbecause you and I deal with it
from different, different angles, Right?
Like,I think the problem and, you know, for
from my perspectiveas a transactional lawyer, you know,
I kind of help clientswhen they're getting started,
when they're like thinking about,okay, you know,
you know, partnership agreements,operating agreements, for example,
like with an LLC, you know,if you have an LLC
(14:01):
and there's more than one of you,you know, do you have a partner or three
it gets
I think it's gets exponentially more
important to have an operating agreementas you have more partners, though.
And, and
because just the like the challengesthat, that the issues that could arise
are just go up exponentiallybecause not only is it like, okay,
one partner, you guys have a dispute,
(14:21):
but now there's likeif you have two other partners
now there's like so many more permutationsof potential issues that could arise.
So I thinkhaving a great operating agreement
or a partnership agreement,just something in place
that can help really understand,okay, what are your goals?
And and if you're not sure, like, oh,you know, all agreements are complicated.
I agree.
Like some of them are unnecessarilycomplicated, but like, fundamentally,
(14:43):
like, what are you trying to do?What you know, what are your goals?
What's each person going to do?
What are the responsibilities?
What happens if it doesn't work out?
How are you going to unwind it?
You know, those are the kind of
the basic questions that I think everybodyneeds to be answering and thinking about
and writing downbefore they go into any venture.
Because once you're in, you know, yes,problems arise if you're not making money.
(15:06):
But honestly, I've seen more problemsarise when you do make a lot of money.
You know, I've seen that'swhere the big, big disputes are happening.
Is that okay?They did really, really well.
And, you know, I had a client in therein the health care space.
You know, they're in litigation today.
You know, two years later,they've probably spent $700,000
each on litigation because they didn'thave these agreements in place.
(15:28):
So we drafted a great offering agreement.
But one of the partners refused to sign itbecause he was doing very shady things.
You know,
he was doing very shady things that thatthat other partner was not on board with.
But unfortunately, this guy's true colors.
So like came aboutonce they started making money,
then he started hiring family.
He started doing all these thingsthat, you know, are generally a
(15:48):
no go and and, and yeah, it's hardbecause, you know,
what do you do in those peoplewith those situations?
The people are just inherently like
I think untruthfulor an inherently corrupt in some ways.
They, you know, they take these actions.
But I think having good contracts,having a good lawyer like you do to
to hold people accountable is really,really important because otherwise,
(16:11):
you know, otherwise people can kind of rawroughshod over people.
And and and that's whythat's why we have the law
to protect those those interests.
Yeah, absolutely.
So so one, if you have a partner
or partners, get an operating agreement,get them to sign it.
Certainly talk through the issuesand the problems.
(16:33):
And what about what can you sayabout the intellectual property
aspects of thingswhen does it make sense to try to protect
a trademark or a copyright, or
is somebody doing it too early?
Like they don'teven really have a business yet
and they're spending all this timeand money on legal?
Or is it truly ever too earlyto spend time and money on legal?
(16:55):
Yeah, no, it was a great question.
I think, you know,obviously we are somewhat,
you know, partial because of what we do.
But I think honestly, even even thenbecause like I always I think
I think like you, we always treatour client is like, okay,
you know, if this is my business,what would I do? Right?
And and, you know,you and I have our own businesses,
(17:16):
you know, real estateI other startups I work on.
And I kind of treated the same way.
So I would never tell a client to dosomething that I wouldn't do personally.
And I mean, I invest in trademarks.
I invest in copyrights early onbecause you know that, you know, patents,
if you have a
you know, if you have some inventionbecause, you know, it serves two purposes.
(17:36):
One is it gives you the rights,
but also make sure that you'renot infringing on someone else's rights.
So that's really important.
Both those both those elementsprotect your rights and create
some asset for youthat you can actually monetize,
that you can scale, thatyou can do something with in the future.
I mean,
the value in licensing is amazing,you know, like especially with a trademark
or a copyright.
You know, Disney did$60 billion in licensing alone last year.
(18:01):
60 billion like I went toI went to a licensing expo in Vegas.
And you just see all these thingspeople are doing
because they've been able to buildbrands and build,
you know, really cool worldsthat now can be licensed.
And it's a big business and I thinkit's only going to get bigger as as we,
you know, as technology growsand the world ahead.
So if you have a kindof creative ideas, building,
(18:24):
building really cool like
IP is going to be super valuablein the years ahead.
Look at Marvel, look at you know,I look at all these comics.
Those are just those those are IP.
But their value grew exponentially inthe last ten years because of licensing.
So I would say do itsoon, do it early, get it cleared.
I mean, just todayI had someone new who came to me,
(18:46):
got a cease and desist letterbecause they didn't register the trademark
and someone else registered the same name
and they said, Hey, that person sent themmany emails or letters saying, Hey,
you know, stop using this name because wewe have a trademark to it.
Little this person knowthat their trademark rights are actually
are are not as strong as they thinkbecause my client used the name earlier.
So if you're an earlier user,
(19:08):
then actually you have rights overeven someone who went with the trademark.
But but again, thisthis person who didn't have a lawyer,
who was a trademark lawyer,he had a lawyer,
I looked himup, was like a real estate lawyer,
did something like, youknow, something else and sent the letter.
But then when you hire actuallysomeone who knows what they're doing,
you know, you're like, realize, oh, wait,
they actually have a lot more rightsthen than they realize.
(19:28):
And, you know,I help them navigate that that issue.
So I think it's really like hiring,you know,
hiring professionals with the right,you know, background.
You know,
I'm not going to say I'm I'm goingto tell you anything about family law.
I wouldn't even dare to tell you.
Think about family law,because I don't that's not my expertise.
But like we do, we've been doingtrademark copyright and like,
you know, corporate law for many years.
(19:49):
And that's where we really have been ableto help a lot of our clients.
Yeah, 100%. So when it comes to
protecting
IP, it sounds like your idea ismaybe even protect it before
somebody is generating a lot of revenuebecause maybe at that point it's too late.
(20:10):
Yeah, Yeah.
So like, for example,like into it with trademarks, you know,
we do a lot of trademark work hereenforcing protection.
So like with trademarks, we, you can filesomething called intent to use trademark,
but that's evenwhen you're not even using it yet,
but yet you have your intentto commercialize in the future.
So if we can actually filean intent to use application,
(20:33):
which kind of saves your spoton the USPTO trademark registrar.
So now if anyone were to file a mark,even if they're using it
after you had your intent to use Mark,you still have rights over that person.
I would say if you have a big brandlike we work a lot of cosmetics
brands and cosmetics.
Obviouslybrand is so important with cosmetics,
you know, skin care,
(20:53):
all these different areasand and not easy to find good trademarks.
So one thing what we do iswe do kind of an exhaustive, comprehensive
name clearance search before you even filethe trademark, because what people don't
realize, like, oh, they they find a nameor they fall in love with it.
But unfortunately,
to be the bearer of bad newsfor one of my clients
who was building this,you know, global trademark
(21:15):
skin care brand, she's a surgeon,
You know, she really, you know,planning on investing a lot of this.
And I told her,
unfortunately, you know, the nameshe chose, there's going to be problems
and she's better offchoosing a slightly different name
then trying to push this one forwardbecause the amount of money
she's going to spend in legal fees tryingto get this pushed forward, even if we're
even if we win those argumentsand there's no guarantee that we would,
(21:38):
it's goingto be detrimental to her business.
So that's the business strategy.
Also, we we provide our clients not just,oh, yeah, this is good or bad or this,
this will make it won't.
But like, what's thewhat's the broader goal of this?
How do youwhere do you see your business going
and how do you want to use your mark?
Because then we also discussedglobal protection, because not only do
we want to look at the U.S., but okay,she wants to make this a global brand.
(22:03):
And what people don't realize sometimesis that like in trademark law,
you have to file trademarksin every country.
You can't just have a global trademark.
So we have to go through and see,
okay, what are the right countriesyou want to use?
Do we want to filesomething called using YPO, which is like
our international system,
which has about
like 100 countries, or dowe want to go to each country separately
(22:25):
where we work with local counciland each of those countries
to file those trademarks?
So those are different questionsthat need to be answered and looked at,
but like also taken care of early onbecause, you know, you probably not
surprised, but like, you know, the momentyou launch around the U.S., China,
India, other places are watchingand they're going to file those marks.
They're very quickly.
(22:45):
And now you're you'reyou're in a tough spot.
I know Applebranded these problems in China.
I mean, you know, without a doubtyou will have problems in those other
countries if you start building a brandthat's getting it kind of right here,
because someone's waiting for that for youto for them to file a trademark there
so they can charge you a lot of money toto use that mark.
(23:07):
So I would say if you're planningon building a big business, a
global business, think about filing early,filing soon, doing a clearance,
but also then looking at the globalopportunities, the global
implications of your mark
and where you want to file for that
mark and other countrieswhere you plan to expand
because you need to act quickly in thosecountries as well, because those are
(23:29):
you know, hereI said you can do you can file,
I intend to use, but but you still have toshow use in commerce there.
It's just first to file whoever'sthe first to file a marketing letter.
What No matter use or not, you get rights.
So there's slightly different paradigms
as well in terms of trademark lawin those other countries.
Yeah.
So if somebody wants to go worldwide,is there a benefit?
(23:50):
I mean, it sounds like the benefitto registering with,
I think you said YPO, Right?
Yeah, Yeah, exactly.
So registering with YPO could be it'smaybe
it's a one shot, you get itand all these different countries.
But the flipside could bethat if it's registered in
any one of those countries,you might not get YPO out registration.
Is that kind of the cost benefit analysis?
Yeah, there's a few issues.
(24:11):
Like so the reason why oftentimeswe don't go through YPO is that also
if someone's a challenger, Mark,it's much easier for them to challenge it
like centrally with through YPOas opposed to each and every country.
So we get someone to try to challengein specific countries.
They have to go to that country,hire a lawyer there and challenge it.
And with YPO, they can highly they canchallenge it through that central body.
(24:32):
And then if you have a problem with itsomewhere or let's say even,
you know, your US mark is challengedand something happens to it
that could jeopardize
your your YPO mark because you're YPOMark was based on your U.S.
Mark But that's why we're alwaysa little bit hesitant to to file using YPO
though you can save some moneyand there's some fees you can save.
(24:55):
There is a cost benefit there.
And that's why we usually most mostbig brands, most companies
will work with local counseljust directly for the filings.
But that doesn't mean thatthat doesn't say that's always bad.
But a lot of a lot of times we will work
directly with local councilin each country.
(25:16):
Yeah. Okay.
And so interms of entrepreneurship in life, what's
what'ssome of the best advice you've received,
whether it's in entrepreneurship or lifethat you wish you had known earlier
or that you thinkwould be really helpful for listeners?
Are some of the best advice?
I feel like
some of the best advice is reallyno one knows what they're doing.
(25:40):
Like in entrepreneurship,it's it's, you know, everyone
everyone is very good at faking itall times,
you know, and, and
and everything.
Like there's a great book I have not read,but I love the title called
Everything is figured out by this.
I think Marie, Fiorello
and I should read it, actually.
(26:01):
But you know, I love I love the idea.
I love the premise that and I do believeit's true.
Everything is figure out.
Even if you make mistakesin entrepreneurship,
usually nothing is fatal.
You know, nothing is fatalthat you can't address or fix.
So you even know in like in in law, right.
You get a loss.You know, people get lawsuits.
And the first time you see lawsuits,very scary, right?
For anyone to get itget hit with a lawsuit by that,
(26:24):
you know, as you as a lawyer,you know, you litigate every day
and you realize, you know what,Like everything can be figured out.
Like,you know, we can maybe find a settlement.
We can find some way to negotiate this.
You know, if we have to enforce someone'srights, you know, we we help them.
You help them do that.
Similarly, like with us, you know,if there's a dispute
or if there's some issue that ariseand it can all be
(26:45):
you can all be figured out, you know,it's understanding, okay, we're all humans
and we're all trying to likeeveryone has their own interests.
And how can I try to figure outwhat this other person wants
and how do wehow do we find some common ground there?
So I would say like, yeah,everything is figure out a ball and, and,
and entrepreneurship and then
and then also like do to believe
(27:08):
like a kind of cheesybut like to believe more yourself
like it's is easy to doubt yourselfas an entrepreneur too.
So easy to doubt what you're doing
especially when you're doing somethingdifferent and something not, you know,
you're, you're not following
the kind of the beaten path,you know, example is, you know, when I
when I first went out on my own again,like launching my firm,
(27:32):
it was like early years of Yelpand no, no laws really on Yelp.
And I had a I had a shared office
suite with two other lawyers,brilliant guys, really, really nice guys.
You know, we got along well.
You know, they went to better law schools.
To me, objectively,probably smarter than me.
And I said, you know, I'm goingto put myself on Yelp and see, you know,
(27:54):
see what happens there. They're like,man, don't do it.
Don't do it.
You know, you're goingto get a bad review, then you're screwed.
I said, You know what?
I'm already going to, you know,let's let's see what happens.
Let's just see what happens, you know,because I wasn't really busy.
You know,I had way too much free time on my hands.
I wasn't as busy.I wanted to be. So I put myself on Yelp.
I just I just created a a page,you know, just Harvard Law Group page.
(28:16):
Or maybe at that point,I was actually law office of Pankaj Raval.
And let's see, you know, what happens.
And just lo and behold, a day later,I guess I get a call
and it was $1,000 client.
I mean, without doing anything.
And and I was like,okay, this is this is something.
So I started saying, okay,I reached out to all my friends,
all the people I had helpedin the last month or two.
I said, Hey,
you know, if you hadif you appreciated this, please,
(28:38):
they'll give me a reviewor the help you need.
You'll find more clients.
People started putting themreviews on Yelp
and all of a sudden I was like,God had the most like most
reviews out of any kind of businesslawyer in the area.
And it started just bringing tonsof business like in in back in the day.
Unfortunately now I think Yelphas filed a lawsuit against Google,
but at that point,the CEO of Yelp was insane like it was.
(29:02):
So it was only show like topone or two result.
Whenever you search anything, Google Yelpwould come up, you click on Yelp
and then I would be top because I would bethe top business lawyer.
You know, in thatin that search though, people,
you know, it's like, don't underestimate
yourself, don't underestimate know,trying things, trying and failing.
Right.
(29:22):
I think it's it's a clichein the tech world like fail faster.
But really, you know, I find myself whenI'm not progressing as much, when I'm not
my my
my business not growing is when I'mI'm I'm fearful.
It's when I'm stuck in like fear.
I'm stuck in like,you know, worry or doubt
that this is a good idea,but really, like, test it all.
(29:42):
I test tested, it's all about testing.
And then and then, you know,getting, getting, getting feedback
test and feedback.
That's that's entrepreneurship,that's business.
Don't just like sit in your headthinking, oh, or analyzing
get out there, test things.
Try things.
Yes you may lose some money orbut you know but you got to do it right.
I mean I knowyou got a lot of good stories about this.
I know you you've invested a lot in yourbusiness and invested a lot in growth.
(30:06):
You know, I love to hear your thoughts on,you know, what
what is the best, best thingyou've ever heard And some examples.
Yeah,
well, I one, I agree
with you in terms of confidence yourself,
the willingness to be able toto potentially fail I think is important.
But I think I think it's importantbecause I've known you for like over
(30:30):
ten yearsnow, and I know how you mean it, that
I want to make sure that the listenersunderstand it because in terms of
fail faster or or
everything, figure out a goal
that that still requiresa high level of dedication and commitment.
This is not to go back to somethingearlier you had
(30:52):
said is isthis is not about showing up halfway.
This is about showing up completely,
putting in the complete time,the complete effort.
And then if for somereason it doesn't work out,
then that's that's different.
But the reality is, I think, frankly,I think the majority of people don't
(31:13):
put in that kind of time and commitmentbecause it's hard, it's uncomfortable.
And we live in a society these dayswhere things are extremely comfortable,
Everything from
for the vast majority of us,especially if somebody is listening
or watching this podcast,
things are pretty comfortable, relativelyspeaking, compared to human history.
And I think that that that breedsa certain level of
(31:37):
satisfaction, a certain level of
of playing it safe, a certain level
of of not being willing to risk more
for fear that you might lose somethingor you might look bad.
And I think it says it says
a decent amount for somebodyto say, well, well, to the average,
(31:57):
the biggest public
fear on average is public speaking.
So think about what kind of societyor country or world we live in.
If that's the biggest fear,
I don't know of a single personwho's died from public speaking.
And yet that's the biggest fear.
And it totally makes sensethat people are terrified of
being embarrassed or going on a stage
(32:18):
or giving a speech or whateverand being very terrified about it.
I remember as a baby lawyer,
I had not planned on becoming a litigator,
but I found that once I started doing itthat I kind of liked it.
But it still terrified meevery single time, whether I was
getting up to even give a 32nd pitchat like
(32:41):
a meeting, like a B and I or pro visors,if who I am and what I do.
I would rehearse the night beforeand I would rehearse the morning of
and I still remember my heart
beating in my chestand being very nervous.
So the first time I went into court
and I didn't really knowwhat I was supposed to do,
so I just got the back of the lineand watched
(33:01):
what everybody else did of like,where am I supposed to check in?
What am I supposed to exactly say?
And so I think there's a big partof figuring things out,
like you said,but taking cues from the environment
and being willing and confident,able enough to to be able
to trust yourself, that you'llyou'll eventually figure it out.
So I think
(33:22):
my advice to everybody would be like,
truly commit, truly, truly, truly commit,because
with the resources that we have accessto these days, certainly
if you're listening or watching this,listening to you or watching this podcast,
the resources at your disposalare immense.
Literally, the the vast of human
(33:43):
knowledge in historyis at your fingertips.
That's an incredible time to be alive.
And so
I would just encourage
everybodyto embrace the opportunities, despite
all the negativity in the mediaand all the negative things we hear
about on a daily basis, which certainlythere are a lot of, I think that there's
(34:06):
frankly far, far more opportunities
that people can take advantage of.
If you just pay attention and look around,you'll find them
because they are immense.
I agree.
Yeah.
Now, you brought up a really good pointabout I think the work.
You know, I think you made a really goodpoint about just the importance of,
you know, putting in the work.
(34:26):
Because you're right,I think you and I both get along too,
because, like, you know,we both value hard work.
We both put in the effort.
We know that,
you know, we I think we're both, you know,very, very positive, optimistic people.
But we know we're notwe're not naive to think that,
oh, it's going to happen because we'rejust because we're positive, optimistic.
You know, I always like,you know, impressed with, you know,
(34:47):
you getting up at 5 a.m., working and mewalking and then, you know, exercising.
And like nowI try to wake up early and work out, too.
And and and, you know,it keeps you keeps you, like, sane, right?
Like for me,I have to exercise almost every day.
Otherwise, you know,the stress can get you right.
Like there's a lot of stressin life and family and we got kids.
So I think taking care of yourselfis so important, too.
(35:08):
That's where like mindfulness,things like that come in.
But like, yeah, you're right.
Like putting in the work and like,you know, and pushing yourself further
and having a good,
like being, having resources around you
that will also helpyou push push yourself further. Right?
I think you invest in you and I investedin, you know, concealing it.
I think actually invest in learning andand coaching and things like that.
(35:29):
And I think that's alsowhy we've been able to, like, grow our
our firms is that, you know,we're we're not just complacent here,
hoping for things to get better,but we are really
pushing ourselves to like,how can we get better,
how can we learn from othersand each other, like having a good group
of people around you to continueto, like, bounce ideas off of and
(35:51):
and in creating that kind of mastermindthat, you know, that we have as well.
So I would say anyone listening,you know, find find your people
and then and the people who don't serve,you know, who do not make you
be better or do not helpyou get better, like let them go.
Like, you have to be really, really
(36:11):
persistent and and
intentional about the people around youand and who you want to with.
And if those people are not helping you,then let them go and
find the right people.
And those people will show upas you continue to like do do the work.
Yes. Yeah.
And that includes whether it's friends,
(36:32):
whether it's professionals on your team.
You know, the reality isyou might outgrow one or both.
And the reality is, is when you feel that,you'll know, you'll sense it
and you feel like something is offand it's time to make a change.
And a lot of timeswe want to stick to what's familiar
because what's unknown can be scarybecause by definition it's unknown.
(36:53):
It could be worse than what you've got,but those trade offs, at least in my own
life, personal and professional,have been phenomenal and fantastic.
The vast, vast majority of the time.
So on average, it's almost always,
almost always beenan upgrade and a benefit so
(37:14):
far where if people want to find outmore about you
or your firm, where can they find outmore about you or your firm?
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn.
If you just you know, if you search.
Pankaj Rovell, he and K.J.
last names are available on LinkedIn.
It's a good place to find me.
Also, our website is CarbonLG Ecom on Instagram, it's at carbon.
(37:37):
LG on Tik Tok, I'm at virtual GC.
I think also mymy name to On top will show up
and, and then also, yeah,we have like a link tree, we have a,
we have a YouTube channelwith some videos that you know, talk about
of forming all these differentdifferent elements of forming a business
that's a punkishrival, business, lawyer and attorney.
(37:59):
And also there's carbon,a carbon law group on on YouTube.
So it should be pretty easyto get in touch
if you ever want to get in touchor if you have questions.
Yeah, we do focused mainlyon transactional IP work and we'd love
to love to help, love to chatabout getting your business started.
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining and sharingsome of your worldly wisdom with us. And
(38:22):
pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you for having me, man.
Yeah, absolutely.
To the listeners, thank you allso much for joining and tuning in today.
If you're not already,
please make sure you like and subscribeso you know where the next episode
is coming out.
Thanks for joining.
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