March 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Most businesses waste money on marketing because they don’t have a real strategy—but what if you could build a data-driven marketing plan that actually delivers results?
In this episode of From Crisis to Justice, Parag Amin sits down with Angelo Ponzi, a Chief Strategy Officer, fractional CMO, and founder of Kraft, to break down how businesses can stop guessing and start making smarter marketing decisions that drive real growth.
With over 25 years of experience in branding, marketing, and competitive strategy, Angelo shares how companies can position themselves for success, target the right customers, and maximize their marketing dollars.
Key takeaways include:
- Marketing vs. Strategy – Why most businesses confuse the two (and why it’s killing their growth).
- How to Measure What’s Actually Working – The data-driven approach to marketing that minimizes risk.
- Niche vs. Broad Targeting – Should your business go deep or wide?
- The Power of Storytelling in Marketing – How to craft a message that connects and converts.
- The Biggest Mistakes Businesses Make in Marketing – And how to avoid them before you waste money.
If you’ve ever felt like your marketing isn’t working or isn’t delivering results, this episode will give you the blueprint to fix it.
Learn more about Angelo Ponzi:
Angelo's Website: https://www.craftmarketingandbranding.com/
Angelo's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angeloponzi
Learn more about Parag Amin:
Parag's Business Law Firm: https://lawpla.com
Parag's Personal Website: https://paraglamin.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From Crisis to Justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur were destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.
(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to From Crisis to Justice.
Welcome back, everybody.
To from crisis to Justice.
I'm your host, Parag Amin.
(00:42):
And I'm joined today by Angelo Ponzi,
who is a chief strategy officer,along with a chief marketing officer.
He founded his own company,Kraft, over ten years ago.
And he provides he and his company
provide fractional CMO or CSO services
(01:02):
to help business owners with data drivenmarketing
and strategies designed to drive revenuegrowth opportunities
while minimizing risk and achievingtangible returns on investment.
In short, they helpyou figure out how to make more money.
So, Angelo,thank you so much for joining me today.
Rob, thank you very much.
I appreciate the opportunity. So
(01:25):
tell me a little bit about
how how you got into this space,particularly
as a chief strategy officerand what that entails
and what makes a good chiefstrategy officer.
Well, you know, it's
that kind of morphed
into an opportunity to, as my first timeas a chief strategy officer.
(01:48):
But so I've always been in marketing.
I've always beenthe data guy researcher from early on.
I mean, my actually my second job,I was the guy creating the plans.
And so that just evolvedand it really reinforced the importance
of planning for me versus on the flipside, I'd just see people execute
(02:11):
and I could see that there were issuesby not having a plan to work against
not understanding the needs and wantsand motivations of their customers.
And how do you roll that in to bemore strategic in your messaging? And
so I've been
client side, I've been advertising agencyside.
I actually had my own agencyfor many years.
(02:32):
I was fortunate enough to sell it.
I a research company in the actionsports industry.
So I mean, I stayed pretty trueto who I am.
I did once try to become a getinto the art department,
but I was told after a weekthat I was really horrible at it
and I could draw a straight line with aruler and I should go back to marketing.
So but the chief strategy officer
(02:55):
job actually was early on in Kraft,where I was brought on, as I thought
originally as a CMO, but she changed it
because she was a young company
that literally blew up overnight.
I mean, I'm talking about borrowingon credit cards to a multimillion dollar
organization in less than 12 months,and she had never run one like that.
(03:19):
And and so what became more importantin our conversations and my background,
having owned a companyand worked for large corporations, work
for small corporations, wasI could be a guide to her
and really help her navigate and developthe strategies to grow their business
versus doing traditional marketing stuff.
(03:40):
And that's and I just found thatthat is kind of always been part
ever since over the last ten years whereI've really focus on that strategy aspect.
And actually the people get confusedsometimes because when you say the word
marketing, they'll rate the tactics,you say strategy, they do something else.
So I've been personally I've actually beenrebranding even again a little bit
(04:03):
and working in that chief strategy officerpositioning because it makes more sense
about really what I do than necessarily,you know, marketing.
But again, I look at marketingdifferently than tactics.
I you know, it's understanding thenuances, where the opportunities exist.
Who are your customers,
what are their motivations,is their hierarchies and your selling.
(04:25):
And ultimately in kind of my positioning
is helping companies better understandthe markets in which they compete.
That's knowing their competition,their customers, their prospects,
the dynamics of the market,and helping to build strategies
to position and repositionand looking for opportunities to grow.
You know, I so many times I get this
(04:47):
and we've been in business for 20 years,we're $10
million company, but we want to be 50than the next three years.
It's like, well, what are you going to dodifferently that you haven't done
in the last 20 years that you thinkwe're going to do differently in three
to, you know, five x your business?
And so I try to be realisticabout those kinds of things.
(05:08):
And my approach is for companieslike that, where do you want to be?
That's a deconstructed into the nuances ofwhat are the paths to get you there?
And that could include newvertical markets, new products to look at.
We look at profitability
of each of the productsand where they fit, what are contributing
(05:28):
to the overall organizationto drive bottom line profit.
And so
just in that description alone, mostpeople don't think of that as marketing.
They think of that as,you know, strategy work.
But I look at it as marketingbecause it's important.
Ultimately, where do you focus?
And it really boils down towhere do you focus your efforts
(05:49):
and and your and your investment,frankly, in
marketing is an investment,not an expense.
Right?
So what do you have to say about peoplewho say, like,
I've spent money on marketing,it doesn't work?
So so whatwhat makes the difference between
marketing that works and marketingthat doesn't work?
And when when do you pivot or shift?
(06:11):
How do you make that decisionIf you've got marketing
that's not working?
Like, how do you decideif you scrap the whole thing
or you just need to tweakcertain parts of it?
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and I get asked that questionall the time.
I also get the question ofcan you guarantee?
And of course, there'sthere's no guarantees in life at all.
(06:32):
So you do the best to minimize your risk
and and mitigate things that can go wrong.
But for me, in
there is actually and I believe it wasI want to say, was David Ogilvy.
I can't remember who said I know50% of my marketing dollars are working.
The problem isI just don't know which half
(06:54):
with 50%. So.
So for me, when I work on a campaign,this is advice I give clients
is we have to understandwhat we're measuring against.
Those objectives and KPIshave to be established
upfront because noteverything is a return on investment.
If we're growing the brand awareness
(07:15):
and building your credibilityand your thought, your thought leadership
or or your reputation can actually,you know, totally measure that.
But you can put things in placethat you can say,
if I increase my awareness by X, then,you know, I've achieved those objectives.
So I try to get very clear.
And like I said,I tell companies, be very clear
(07:38):
on what you're trying to measurebecause everything isn't a dollar
for a dollar or $2 for every dollarI invest.
Some tactics can do that.
And and so with a lot of situations,I can't equate that.
Case in point, I have a client.
We've been working togetheralmost three years now for eight months.
We worked on his websiteand got it really plain
(07:59):
and straightened outand, you know, optimize.
And then we started launching with ourspecific plan with blogging and posting
and all the things that we're doingwas to position them in a leadership role
that people, when
people think about themand they're in their payments space
and especially specifically B2B payments,
(08:21):
that they would be known for that.
And we feel like, you know,it could always improve, but we feel like
we're accomplishing those objectivesfor a lot of different reasons.
But one specifically as he now sits
as one of the co-chairsto the B2B payments
for the largest associationfor payments in the country.
(08:43):
And so he's now on the B2Bcommittees and helps
drive and structurewhat happens going forward with that.
You know,so now he is being recognized for that.
Now can I say that that that title nowhas gotten him X amount of dollars?
Not specifically,
but we can track the activityand things that have gotten him there.
(09:04):
And what we kind of see if you put a,you know, drop or stone in the pond
and watch the ripples,we can see where the ripples are going.
And we could start nowseeing, you know, is getting
people more aware of the benefits of B2B
payments and we're getting a lotmore traction and activity.
So again, that's kind of a roundabout wayof saying we can track it,
(09:25):
we can trace it, but it isn't necessarilyyou invest a dollar
and you get to back. Yeah.
So, you know, when it comes to marketingand how niche somebody should go
or how they should position their product,you know, I've heard that the,
the riches are in the niches, but I'd alsoheard that the wealth is in the breath.
(09:47):
So how targeted shouldsomebody be in their marketing
for whateverservice or product that they're selling?
Well, again, I'm
a I'm going to sound likea little bit of a broken record
is going back to planning, you know,what are you trying to accomplish?
And first of all, I believethere is no silver bullet and marketing.
(10:10):
It is an integrated approach.
So if you're only going to do one thing,it's probably not going to just be
the only thing that works.
So so you have to have multiple activitiesgoing on. Why?
Because during the course of the daywe could be on our LinkedIn account,
you know, at night I might be reading,I might be watching television.
Right.
So you want to kind of be where yourtarget audience is throughout the day.
(10:35):
And so therefore and then also that the
the channels have differentforms of communications, right?
If it's if it's on Twitteror it's a television
commercial, it's a radio spotor it's a blog,
all those are different types of formsand ways to deliver information.
And some
you can say a whole lot more in the blogthan you can say in a short tweet.
(10:57):
Right.
So you've got to kind of understand
how you you build your story
and capitalizeon all the different channels to make sure
the overall goal in the storythat you're trying to tell.
And it is about storytelling,
because
ultimately that's what gets peopleexcited.
(11:17):
It's not about,you know, the client was in business
for 75 years and they're like, Well,we've been in 75 years.
Of course we're great.
And I was like, Well, that's a reasonto believe, not a reason to buy.
I'm not going to buy your business,your services,
because you've been in businessa long time.
We're going to buy it because I see value
and I can understand the valueI'll get by working with you.
(11:41):
But you obviously do something rightbecause you've been around for 75
years, right?
So you have to understand the importance.
I also get I got great people.
I got great people.
And framework of your peopleare better than mine.
I go steal your people. Right.
So you're looking at thingsthat you can really leverage
when you're trying to differentiateyour stuff,
(12:02):
your business or your servicesor products, whatever happens to be.
And so, again, really understandingand that gets back to spending time,
understanding your competition,understanding the market,
understanding the motivationsand behaviors long
before, frankly,you start doing a lot of tactics.
Otherwise you'rejust putting stuff out there
and you're hoping that I workedwith a client last year.
(12:24):
I first started working with them.
We started talking about
PPC, so paid
advertising on Google,they said it didn't work.
I said, Well, how long did you do it?
They said, A year.
I said, Why? And they go, I don't know.
It just never work.
Oh, no.
By the way,
we hired the guy again for another 30 daysto see if he could make it happen.
Well, that was ridiculous,because nobody spent the time to really
(12:48):
understand why it was not working,only that it wasn't working.
And and I'm going to guessbecause I wasn't around that
the planning going intoit was not really solid.
And so, again, it'syou don't want to invest
without doingit is like you know, buying stock
with ideas standingwhat's going on with the with the company.
(13:09):
Right. Sounds like a good investment.
I would invest a bunch of moneyin the stock one down and
whose fault You didn'teven do any due diligence on it.
And so if you think about the duediligence of understanding
all the things that I was talkingabout, it can really help
define how you move forward.
(13:29):
And so when it comes to thinking about
how you position a productor how you promote it,
you know, I always think about this ideaof on the one hand,
you can look at your competitors,see what they're doing,
see how you differentiate yourselfor do better.
But then you've got the one offslike Steve Jobs,
who talks about the idea of the iPhone
(13:50):
and how, you know, if you asked consumersand they wanted a product
that had a phone, a cameraand a music player
all in one, it's a no,I have no need for that.
And yet now the iPhone is by farthe best selling phone
in terms of numbersand percentage of market share.
Or youyou look at somebody like Jeff Bezos
(14:12):
and this idea of the the Alexa echo.
And so sure,
as youjust heard, my mind kicked in right there.
So I've got one too.
I'm a customer.
So, you know, the realityis that even that product, Jeff
Bezos said, if we ask consumersif they want something like that
(14:32):
and it stays on and randomly chimesin like it just hit there,
is that is that a product you'd want?
And the vast majority of consumerswould probably say no.
So how does one do marketshare research like that?
Or I mean, JeffBezos is in the Steve Jobs of the world.
Just that.
And and you really can't emulate themor follow their style
(14:55):
of what
the company or at least that idea withdon't have you know, the dollars
behind them to go off and just buildand build it and they will come
and we don't and I don't know for a factof how much research they did, but
I do deal with a lot of small companiesthat have some great ideas,
and I always recommend
whether it's some kind of research,whether it's,
(15:18):
you know, proprietary or secondary,to try to understand how it fits.
So I've worked with several new productsand startups
where we've gone out into the marketand tried to get feedback on
on the product itselfand, you know, would people use it?
Why would they use it?
I just finished one for a software companyand they're trying to determine
their features.
(15:39):
And so we had a feature set.
The question waswhat do we need in order to go to market?
And so in this case,we did go out and talk to potential users
to try to understandwhat features were important to them.
Now, do I know if they were going to buy?
Not necessarily,but at least we were trying to make it.
So when the client launched the product,
(16:01):
they have a better shotof getting in front and getting back
in front of those peoplebecause now they designed something.
So I think that in any case,
in any case,I mean, again, I've worked with companies
that did absolutely no resources,tons of stories
of companiesthat ran out and built the product
(16:22):
because they thought there was a need.And it turned out to be there wasn't. A
the 3D
television is a great examplewhen when Avatar came out
and everybody was excited about 3Dand we had three or four major players
trying to produce the first 3D televisionand one of them did it got to the market
first early adopters, and withinless than five years it was dead.
(16:44):
And there was a simple reason,according to the case studies,
and that's the fact that ultimately people
don't want to wear 3D glassesto watch television all the time.
But nobody ever asked anybody.
They just assumedit was a hit and ran with it.
So especially with smaller companies
that spending, you know, thousandsor millions of dollars on product
(17:06):
development without ever understandingif there's a need.
I'm working with a startup right nowthat got an unbelievable
solution in the A.I. world.
But yeah, there's such a waterfall of A.I.
tools coming outthat were getting lost in the noise.
And so we're constantly
(17:28):
looking at how we can reposition.
So it gets above the fray.
Is there stuff that'susually more little futuristic where it's
decentralized port the bot communication.
So which means my company's botcan talk to your bot and we can do
literally transactions, communications
or by cell do all these kinds of things.
(17:51):
So we're ahead of the curve,but we're not.
We're getting lost in the fray.
And so there's a great example as wethe more we go out and pitch
different companies on the serviceswe're using, that is kind of our secondary
or primary research to get beyondwas already done to develop the product,
to try to understand what the barriers areand things like that.
(18:12):
So even as the products being developed,we're we're learning
that, that, you know, the marketisn't quite ready for what we have
that butit's it's a solid, workable solution.
And now we just need to figure outhow to tell the story.
We actually I think we solved itactually about an hour or so.
(18:34):
But, you know, women were I've beenworking on this for six months now.
And so again, I just firmly believe that.
I knowI probably sound like a broken record, but
they're really taking the time to do this.
I worked with aand I do some mentoring over
at one of the universities here,and they brought me in to talk to a young
(18:55):
entrepreneur in his groupand they had this interesting solution
on subscription shoesand I won't go into it.
But I asked them, Did you do any research?
And it was mom and dad and their brothersor sisters or cousins, and everybody
loved it.
And they were
in and out of the market in six months
because there werethere were flaws to the model.
(19:16):
And when I tried to pointed out to them,you know,
they just don't want to listen,like because everybody else loved it.
And I didn't
I didn't hate it.
But I just think they had some issues.
And so that's the other thingI find with young businesses
is they they falland I'm guilty of this myself.
We fall in lovewith our product or service.
(19:37):
And a lot of timesit's hard to be told that, you know,
that's not quite the way you want it.
And and,you know, listen to outside counsel.
Ultimately,we're making the final decision,
but you have to listen
or otherwise you just closed offand you're working in a silo or in a box.
And, you know,and I like to say that Field of Dreams
(20:00):
strategy doesn't always work.
And hope is not a strategy.
So again, how can you mitigate, minimize,especially if you're looking for
investments or again, you're,
you know, bootstrapping itto launch your own your own business.
You know,
you can't afford to make those mistakesand you can't afford to build an iPhone.
Right. So, you know, what is that?
I worked with a law firma couple of years ago who had and came up
(20:23):
with an internal software solution forprocess management, document management.
And so I did the researchto see if they could actually roll
that out as a solutionthat other law firms could buy.
But they, you know,were funding everything.
But they came at it from a practicaluse that worked for them.
The question is,would it work for everybody else?
(20:44):
And what were those featuresthat were important to other law firms?
Yeah.
And so when it comes to
this story,you know, that's that's a big part
of really anything anything that involveshumans, I think involves stories.
And so, you know, that that's somethingI learned from being a baby lawyer, too,
(21:05):
where I'm not now in terms of tryingcases, explaining cases
to judges, jurors
in terms of being able to tellthe story is far more important
and effective than talking about factsand figures and statistics.
So when it comes to marketingand positioning,
what do you thinkmakes for a good and effective story?
(21:29):
Well, you know,there's a process that we use
and we have the modification of somethingelse is out in the marketplace, but
it's understandingthat we're not the heroes,
that our clients are the heroesand we need to guide them
so they can achieve their goals, you know,as a hero to them, to their customers.
(21:52):
And so it's really about understandingthose nuances.
And again,it gets back to what's important.
I understand what's important to youthat I can craft a story to make sure I'm
showing value and what's relevantand how I can help you be successful.
Right?
It's not a really about, it'snot about me,
it's about youand how do I help you successful.
(22:14):
So the client in the Christmas businesscommercial Christmas is a great example.
I started working with them
all their communicationswhere we have great products.
You can stick it out in the rain,in the snow, it won't weather, you know,
the last two years and years and yearsand is a wonderful, great.
(22:34):
But when I started working with themand I started doing a lot of my due
diligence and in talking to customers,
what I realized is what was that?
Everything we saidwas a reason to believe, reason to buy.
But what we never talked aboutis for our customers,
which are malls and venues,is we're going to create memories
(22:57):
for them, going to create memoriesfor your customers.
And it changed the thinking in
and it literally rippled
through the company and the waythey design their presentations and
and because it was always now
about not you, the mall customer,but your customers customers.
And by understanding the value andexcitement that we could bring to them.
(23:20):
Now, you know, the mall people were like,well yeah, that's great
because ultimatelywe want them to come back.
Not only wants to shop itover and over and over
and bring their kidsand all this kind of stuff,
so it really had to change the mindsetin the thinking
of the peoplethat there was a 25 year old business
and in it changed and help them growand do lots of other things
(23:41):
and, and I still work with them.
And so it's it was exciting to see themembrace it.
I can't say it was a little kickingand screaming at first, but
but they changed in the understoodand now they're extremely happy
that they did because again, it
totally differentiated themfrom the people selling the product.
(24:01):
Right.
The features of the product,the sell the benefits, sell the value.
Why am I going to buy this stuff?
Because, you know, I have to understandwhat it's going to do for me.
And the same thing with the service.
I mean, you have to understand that, yes,
I can do your accounting, but you knowwhat's so a hundred other people,
thousands of other people,Why am I going to pick you to do it?
(24:24):
What's the valuethat you're going to give me?
What's the value of this productthat you're asking me to spend money on?
And so if people thinkkind of in that realm and not think about
just the product or the sweat and tearsthat they did in building it, but
ultimately there's there's a reason for itand the value that it brings.
So that's
(24:45):
I think I answered the question.
I might have gone off on a tangent.
Sorry, that's very helpful or notappreciate you
sharing the knowledge and the wisdomthat you've gathered over all these years.
So, you know, another component isand I talk to my team about this
all the time is I think that there'sthere's some timeless principles
that will never go out of styleand have always been in style.
(25:06):
So, for example,
when we're dealing with client cases,
there will never be a future inwhich clients don't want more convenience.
And so we go out of our way to try to makethe process
is convenient as possible, you know,anticipate our client's needs, anticipate
what they might be thinking aboutor worried about what they might need,
(25:28):
when they might need
a status update or something,even if there isn't an update to report.
So those kinds of things,we are cognizant of those.
And so, for example,I think that convenience is
it is a timeless principlewhen it comes to business and marketing.
And I, I think that, you know, I remember
you mentioned earlierthe 3D glasses and the 3D TVs coming out.
(25:50):
And immediately I was like,this is not going to work because,
you know intuitively this ideaof convenience, it violated that principle
because nobody really wantsto charge out the headset
to be able to sit downand watch television.
It requires too much foresightand forethought
about how
and when you're going to watch televisionand then require something to strap
on to your head or put on your overyour eyes to just simply watch TV.
(26:13):
I think it violates that principle.
I think also this ideaof being able to tell a story
is also one of those timeless principles
of whether marketing or business.
What would you say, Angela, is
or some of the other timeless principlesthat you've noticed over the years?
(26:35):
I mean, certainly storytelling isand there is, you know, the
the PS of marketing, right?
Price and placement and promotionand but I, I think it's
I again, I,
I go back to that
(26:56):
understanding,taking the time to understand the needs
and wants of your customers.
I mean any plan I've ever built,that's a huge component of it
because ultimately if I don't know them,how do I either way market to them?
How do I convince them thatthat that I've got the right product?
And and so for me it'sthere's kind of this process that I use
(27:20):
is, you know, defining my competitorsand really
breaking them downinto their into the nuances.
I call itdeconstructing and reconstructing.
I break them all down,I reconstruct them back up
and I look for the gapsand the areas that I could benefit from.
And then but the big one is,is understanding your customers.
(27:42):
That means talking to them.
And then it's
interesting, over the yearsof how many people have never talk
or talked very little to their customersjust because
they're buying your continue to buyyour product doesn't necessarily mean
you know that somebody else'sand trying to sell them or they're happy.
(28:03):
And so I think from that standpoint,back to you,
you know, being serviceoriented is is that's all part of it.
And ultimately,if you're selling or servicing
a client, it'sit's about that communications.
And so having that
constant dialog to understandif you disappear, stuff can happen.
(28:25):
And and so again I'm I think if I couldpick one thing that I think is,
is really importantis that customer understanding
and that contributes to your storytellingand everything else, right?
So they all build on each other.
They're all the building blocks.
And I like to talk about for me, it's,you know, we're building the foundation,
(28:45):
which to build,you know, the house on, right?
The blueprint.
You know, you would go outand build a house without understanding,
you know, how many roomsand what you want, what's the flow
and so that's reallywhat I like to think of is is kind of the
the tried and true as we build thatfoundation and we know how to build it,
we know how the customerswant to use the rooms,
(29:06):
how they want to watch, where they wantto watch television, right.
All those different things.
If we want to draw analogiesand and that's how we construct
and build the go to plans,because I have that understanding.
And I think that's again I, I think that's
is is key.
Yeah, I agree.
(29:26):
So Angela,if people want to find out more about you
and your business,how can they find you online?
Yeah, the easiest way is LinkedIn.
I'm on LinkedInand LinkedIn has connections to my website
and, and that's,you know, kind of the other big resource.
I do have a lot of free resources.
There have ebooks have a little minimarketing course
(29:47):
and all sorts of videosand things like that. So
but yeah, LinkedIn is the easiest.
Awesome.
Okay, well look, I appreciate yousharing some of your knowledge with us.
And you know,
I know I've gotten some great takeawaysand hopefully the listeners have as well.
I have no doubt that they did.
And to all the listeners,if you like this episode,
(30:10):
make sure you like and subscribeso you can hear
when new episodes are coming outso you don't miss a beat.
And Angelo, thank you so muchfor joining me here today on From Crisis
to Justice.
He very much appreciate all.
Hi, I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From Crisis to Justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur were destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.
(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to From Crisis to Justice.
Welcome back, everybody.
To from crisis to Justice.
I'm your host, Parag Amin.
(00:42):
And I'm joined today by Angelo Ponzi,
who is a chief strategy officer,along with a chief marketing officer.
He founded his own company,Kraft, over ten years ago.
And he provides he and his company
provide fractional CMO or CSO services
(01:02):
to help business owners with data drivenmarketing
and strategies designed to drive revenuegrowth opportunities
while minimizing risk and achievingtangible returns on investment.
In short, they helpyou figure out how to make more money.
So, Angelo,thank you so much for joining me today.
Rob, thank you very much.
I appreciate the opportunity. So
(01:25):
tell me a little bit about
how how you got into this space,particularly
as a chief strategy officerand what that entails
and what makes a good chiefstrategy officer.
Well, you know, it's
that kind of morphed
into an opportunity to, as my first timeas a chief strategy officer.
(01:48):
But so I've always been in marketing.
I've always beenthe data guy researcher from early on.
I mean, my actually my second job,I was the guy creating the plans.
And so that just evolvedand it really reinforced the importance
of planning for me versus on the flipside, I'd just see people execute
(02:11):
and I could see that there were issuesby not having a plan to work against
not understanding the needs and wantsand motivations of their customers.
And how do you roll that in to bemore strategic in your messaging? And
so I've been
client side, I've been advertising agencyside.
I actually had my own agencyfor many years.
(02:32):
I was fortunate enough to sell it.
I a research company in the actionsports industry.
So I mean, I stayed pretty trueto who I am.
I did once try to become a getinto the art department,
but I was told after a weekthat I was really horrible at it
and I could draw a straight line with aruler and I should go back to marketing.
So but the chief strategy officer
(02:55):
job actually was early on in Kraft,where I was brought on, as I thought
originally as a CMO, but she changed it
because she was a young company
that literally blew up overnight.
I mean, I'm talking about borrowingon credit cards to a multimillion dollar
organization in less than 12 months,and she had never run one like that.
(03:19):
And and so what became more importantin our conversations and my background,
having owned a companyand worked for large corporations, work
for small corporations, wasI could be a guide to her
and really help her navigate and developthe strategies to grow their business
versus doing traditional marketing stuff.
(03:40):
And that's and I just found thatthat is kind of always been part
ever since over the last ten years whereI've really focus on that strategy aspect.
And actually the people get confusedsometimes because when you say the word
marketing, they'll rate the tactics,you say strategy, they do something else.
So I've been personally I've actually beenrebranding even again a little bit
(04:03):
and working in that chief strategy officerpositioning because it makes more sense
about really what I do than necessarily,you know, marketing.
But again, I look at marketingdifferently than tactics.
I you know, it's understanding thenuances, where the opportunities exist.
Who are your customers,
what are their motivations,is their hierarchies and your selling.
(04:25):
And ultimately in kind of my positioning
is helping companies better understandthe markets in which they compete.
That's knowing their competition,their customers, their prospects,
the dynamics of the market,and helping to build strategies
to position and repositionand looking for opportunities to grow.
You know, I so many times I get this
(04:47):
and we've been in business for 20 years,we're $10
million company, but we want to be 50than the next three years.
It's like, well, what are you going to dodifferently that you haven't done
in the last 20 years that you thinkwe're going to do differently in three
to, you know, five x your business?
And so I try to be realisticabout those kinds of things.
(05:08):
And my approach is for companieslike that, where do you want to be?
That's a deconstructed into the nuances ofwhat are the paths to get you there?
And that could include newvertical markets, new products to look at.
We look at profitability
of each of the productsand where they fit, what are contributing
(05:28):
to the overall organizationto drive bottom line profit.
And so
just in that description alone, mostpeople don't think of that as marketing.
They think of that as,you know, strategy work.
But I look at it as marketingbecause it's important.
Ultimately, where do you focus?
And it really boils down towhere do you focus your efforts
(05:49):
and and your and your investment,frankly, in
marketing is an investment,not an expense.
Right?
So what do you have to say about peoplewho say, like,
I've spent money on marketing,it doesn't work?
So so whatwhat makes the difference between
marketing that works and marketingthat doesn't work?
And when when do you pivot or shift?
(06:11):
How do you make that decisionIf you've got marketing
that's not working?
Like, how do you decideif you scrap the whole thing
or you just need to tweakcertain parts of it?
Yeah, it's a great question.
And and I get asked that questionall the time.
I also get the question ofcan you guarantee?
And of course, there'sthere's no guarantees in life at all.
(06:32):
So you do the best to minimize your risk
and and mitigate things that can go wrong.
But for me, in
there is actually and I believe it wasI want to say, was David Ogilvy.
I can't remember who said I know50% of my marketing dollars are working.
The problem isI just don't know which half
(06:54):
with 50%. So.
So for me, when I work on a campaign,this is advice I give clients
is we have to understandwhat we're measuring against.
Those objectives and KPIshave to be established
upfront because noteverything is a return on investment.
If we're growing the brand awareness
(07:15):
and building your credibilityand your thought, your thought leadership
or or your reputation can actually,you know, totally measure that.
But you can put things in placethat you can say,
if I increase my awareness by X, then,you know, I've achieved those objectives.
So I try to get very clear.
And like I said,I tell companies, be very clear
(07:38):
on what you're trying to measurebecause everything isn't a dollar
for a dollar or $2 for every dollarI invest.
Some tactics can do that.
And and so with a lot of situations,I can't equate that.
Case in point, I have a client.
We've been working togetheralmost three years now for eight months.
We worked on his websiteand got it really plain
(07:59):
and straightened outand, you know, optimize.
And then we started launching with ourspecific plan with blogging and posting
and all the things that we're doingwas to position them in a leadership role
that people, when
people think about themand they're in their payments space
and especially specifically B2B payments,
(08:21):
that they would be known for that.
And we feel like, you know,it could always improve, but we feel like
we're accomplishing those objectivesfor a lot of different reasons.
But one specifically as he now sits
as one of the co-chairsto the B2B payments
for the largest associationfor payments in the country.
(08:43):
And so he's now on the B2Bcommittees and helps
drive and structurewhat happens going forward with that.
You know,so now he is being recognized for that.
Now can I say that that that title nowhas gotten him X amount of dollars?
Not specifically,
but we can track the activityand things that have gotten him there.
(09:04):
And what we kind of see if you put a,you know, drop or stone in the pond
and watch the ripples,we can see where the ripples are going.
And we could start nowseeing, you know, is getting
people more aware of the benefits of B2B
payments and we're getting a lotmore traction and activity.
So again, that's kind of a roundabout wayof saying we can track it,
(09:25):
we can trace it, but it isn't necessarilyyou invest a dollar
and you get to back. Yeah.
So, you know, when it comes to marketingand how niche somebody should go
or how they should position their product,you know, I've heard that the,
the riches are in the niches, but I'd alsoheard that the wealth is in the breath.
(09:47):
So how targeted shouldsomebody be in their marketing
for whateverservice or product that they're selling?
Well, again, I'm
a I'm going to sound likea little bit of a broken record
is going back to planning, you know,what are you trying to accomplish?
And first of all, I believethere is no silver bullet and marketing.
(10:10):
It is an integrated approach.
So if you're only going to do one thing,it's probably not going to just be
the only thing that works.
So so you have to have multiple activitiesgoing on. Why?
Because during the course of the daywe could be on our LinkedIn account,
you know, at night I might be reading,I might be watching television.
Right.
So you want to kind of be where yourtarget audience is throughout the day.
(10:35):
And so therefore and then also that the
the channels have differentforms of communications, right?
If it's if it's on Twitteror it's a television
commercial, it's a radio spotor it's a blog,
all those are different types of formsand ways to deliver information.
And some
you can say a whole lot more in the blogthan you can say in a short tweet.
(10:57):
Right.
So you've got to kind of understand
how you you build your story
and capitalizeon all the different channels to make sure
the overall goal in the storythat you're trying to tell.
And it is about storytelling,
because
ultimately that's what gets peopleexcited.
(11:17):
It's not about,you know, the client was in business
for 75 years and they're like, Well,we've been in 75 years.
Of course we're great.
And I was like, Well, that's a reasonto believe, not a reason to buy.
I'm not going to buy your business,your services,
because you've been in businessa long time.
We're going to buy it because I see value
and I can understand the valueI'll get by working with you.
(11:41):
But you obviously do something rightbecause you've been around for 75
years, right?
So you have to understand the importance.
I also get I got great people.
I got great people.
And framework of your peopleare better than mine.
I go steal your people. Right.
So you're looking at thingsthat you can really leverage
when you're trying to differentiateyour stuff,
(12:02):
your business or your servicesor products, whatever happens to be.
And so, again, really understandingand that gets back to spending time,
understanding your competition,understanding the market,
understanding the motivationsand behaviors long
before, frankly,you start doing a lot of tactics.
Otherwise you'rejust putting stuff out there
and you're hoping that I workedwith a client last year.
(12:24):
I first started working with them.
We started talking about
PPC, so paid
advertising on Google,they said it didn't work.
I said, Well, how long did you do it?
They said, A year.
I said, Why? And they go, I don't know.
It just never work.
Oh, no.
By the way,
we hired the guy again for another 30 daysto see if he could make it happen.
Well, that was ridiculous,because nobody spent the time to really
(12:48):
understand why it was not working,only that it wasn't working.
And and I'm going to guessbecause I wasn't around that
the planning going intoit was not really solid.
And so, again, it'syou don't want to invest
without doingit is like you know, buying stock
with ideas standingwhat's going on with the with the company.
(13:09):
Right. Sounds like a good investment.
I would invest a bunch of moneyin the stock one down and
whose fault You didn'teven do any due diligence on it.
And so if you think about the duediligence of understanding
all the things that I was talkingabout, it can really help
define how you move forward.
(13:29):
And so when it comes to thinking about
how you position a productor how you promote it,
you know, I always think about this ideaof on the one hand,
you can look at your competitors,see what they're doing,
see how you differentiate yourselfor do better.
But then you've got the one offslike Steve Jobs,
who talks about the idea of the iPhone
(13:50):
and how, you know, if you asked consumersand they wanted a product
that had a phone, a cameraand a music player
all in one, it's a no,I have no need for that.
And yet now the iPhone is by farthe best selling phone
in terms of numbersand percentage of market share.
Or youyou look at somebody like Jeff Bezos
(14:12):
and this idea of the the Alexa echo.
And so sure,
as youjust heard, my mind kicked in right there.
So I've got one too.
I'm a customer.
So, you know, the realityis that even that product, Jeff
Bezos said, if we ask consumersif they want something like that
(14:32):
and it stays on and randomly chimesin like it just hit there,
is that is that a product you'd want?
And the vast majority of consumerswould probably say no.
So how does one do marketshare research like that?
Or I mean, JeffBezos is in the Steve Jobs of the world.
Just that.
And and you really can't emulate themor follow their style
(14:55):
of what
the company or at least that idea withdon't have you know, the dollars
behind them to go off and just buildand build it and they will come
and we don't and I don't know for a factof how much research they did, but
I do deal with a lot of small companiesthat have some great ideas,
and I always recommend
whether it's some kind of research,whether it's,
(15:18):
you know, proprietary or secondary,to try to understand how it fits.
So I've worked with several new productsand startups
where we've gone out into the marketand tried to get feedback on
on the product itselfand, you know, would people use it?
Why would they use it?
I just finished one for a software companyand they're trying to determine
their features.
(15:39):
And so we had a feature set.
The question waswhat do we need in order to go to market?
And so in this case,we did go out and talk to potential users
to try to understandwhat features were important to them.
Now, do I know if they were going to buy?
Not necessarily,but at least we were trying to make it.
So when the client launched the product,
(16:01):
they have a better shotof getting in front and getting back
in front of those peoplebecause now they designed something.
So I think that in any case,
in any case,I mean, again, I've worked with companies
that did absolutely no resources,tons of stories
of companiesthat ran out and built the product
(16:22):
because they thought there was a need.And it turned out to be there wasn't. A
the 3D
television is a great examplewhen when Avatar came out
and everybody was excited about 3Dand we had three or four major players
trying to produce the first 3D televisionand one of them did it got to the market
first early adopters, and withinless than five years it was dead.
(16:44):
And there was a simple reason,according to the case studies,
and that's the fact that ultimately people
don't want to wear 3D glassesto watch television all the time.
But nobody ever asked anybody.
They just assumedit was a hit and ran with it.
So especially with smaller companies
that spending, you know, thousandsor millions of dollars on product
(17:06):
development without ever understandingif there's a need.
I'm working with a startup right nowthat got an unbelievable
solution in the A.I. world.
But yeah, there's such a waterfall of A.I.
tools coming outthat were getting lost in the noise.
And so we're constantly
(17:28):
looking at how we can reposition.
So it gets above the fray.
Is there stuff that'susually more little futuristic where it's
decentralized port the bot communication.
So which means my company's botcan talk to your bot and we can do
literally transactions, communications
or by cell do all these kinds of things.
(17:51):
So we're ahead of the curve,but we're not.
We're getting lost in the fray.
And so there's a great example as wethe more we go out and pitch
different companies on the serviceswe're using, that is kind of our secondary
or primary research to get beyondwas already done to develop the product,
to try to understand what the barriers areand things like that.
(18:12):
So even as the products being developed,we're we're learning
that, that, you know, the marketisn't quite ready for what we have
that butit's it's a solid, workable solution.
And now we just need to figure outhow to tell the story.
We actually I think we solved itactually about an hour or so.
(18:34):
But, you know, women were I've beenworking on this for six months now.
And so again, I just firmly believe that.
I knowI probably sound like a broken record, but
they're really taking the time to do this.
I worked with aand I do some mentoring over
at one of the universities here,and they brought me in to talk to a young
(18:55):
entrepreneur in his groupand they had this interesting solution
on subscription shoesand I won't go into it.
But I asked them, Did you do any research?
And it was mom and dad and their brothersor sisters or cousins, and everybody
loved it.
And they were
in and out of the market in six months
because there werethere were flaws to the model.
(19:16):
And when I tried to pointed out to them,you know,
they just don't want to listen,like because everybody else loved it.
And I didn't
I didn't hate it.
But I just think they had some issues.
And so that's the other thingI find with young businesses
is they they falland I'm guilty of this myself.
We fall in lovewith our product or service.
(19:37):
And a lot of timesit's hard to be told that, you know,
that's not quite the way you want it.
And and,you know, listen to outside counsel.
Ultimately,we're making the final decision,
but you have to listen
or otherwise you just closed offand you're working in a silo or in a box.
And, you know,and I like to say that Field of Dreams
(20:00):
strategy doesn't always work.
And hope is not a strategy.
So again, how can you mitigate, minimize,especially if you're looking for
investments or again, you're,
you know, bootstrapping itto launch your own your own business.
You know,
you can't afford to make those mistakesand you can't afford to build an iPhone.
Right. So, you know, what is that?
I worked with a law firma couple of years ago who had and came up
(20:23):
with an internal software solution forprocess management, document management.
And so I did the researchto see if they could actually roll
that out as a solutionthat other law firms could buy.
But they, you know,were funding everything.
But they came at it from a practicaluse that worked for them.
The question is,would it work for everybody else?
(20:44):
And what were those featuresthat were important to other law firms?
Yeah.
And so when it comes to
this story,you know, that's that's a big part
of really anything anything that involveshumans, I think involves stories.
And so, you know, that that's somethingI learned from being a baby lawyer, too,
(21:05):
where I'm not now in terms of tryingcases, explaining cases
to judges, jurors
in terms of being able to tellthe story is far more important
and effective than talking about factsand figures and statistics.
So when it comes to marketingand positioning,
what do you thinkmakes for a good and effective story?
(21:29):
Well, you know,there's a process that we use
and we have the modification of somethingelse is out in the marketplace, but
it's understandingthat we're not the heroes,
that our clients are the heroesand we need to guide them
so they can achieve their goals, you know,as a hero to them, to their customers.
(21:52):
And so it's really about understandingthose nuances.
And again,it gets back to what's important.
I understand what's important to youthat I can craft a story to make sure I'm
showing value and what's relevantand how I can help you be successful.
Right?
It's not a really about, it'snot about me,
it's about youand how do I help you successful.
(22:14):
So the client in the Christmas businesscommercial Christmas is a great example.
I started working with them
all their communicationswhere we have great products.
You can stick it out in the rain,in the snow, it won't weather, you know,
the last two years and years and yearsand is a wonderful, great.
(22:34):
But when I started working with themand I started doing a lot of my due
diligence and in talking to customers,
what I realized is what was that?
Everything we saidwas a reason to believe, reason to buy.
But what we never talked aboutis for our customers,
which are malls and venues,is we're going to create memories
(22:57):
for them, going to create memoriesfor your customers.
And it changed the thinking in
and it literally rippled
through the company and the waythey design their presentations and
and because it was always now
about not you, the mall customer,but your customers customers.
And by understanding the value andexcitement that we could bring to them.
(23:20):
Now, you know, the mall people were like,well yeah, that's great
because ultimatelywe want them to come back.
Not only wants to shop itover and over and over
and bring their kidsand all this kind of stuff,
so it really had to change the mindsetin the thinking
of the peoplethat there was a 25 year old business
and in it changed and help them growand do lots of other things
(23:41):
and, and I still work with them.
And so it's it was exciting to see themembrace it.
I can't say it was a little kickingand screaming at first, but
but they changed in the understoodand now they're extremely happy
that they did because again, it
totally differentiated themfrom the people selling the product.
(24:01):
Right.
The features of the product,the sell the benefits, sell the value.
Why am I going to buy this stuff?
Because, you know, I have to understandwhat it's going to do for me.
And the same thing with the service.
I mean, you have to understand that, yes,
I can do your accounting, but you knowwhat's so a hundred other people,
thousands of other people,Why am I going to pick you to do it?
(24:24):
What's the valuethat you're going to give me?
What's the value of this productthat you're asking me to spend money on?
And so if people thinkkind of in that realm and not think about
just the product or the sweat and tearsthat they did in building it, but
ultimately there's there's a reason for itand the value that it brings.
So that's
(24:45):
I think I answered the question.
I might have gone off on a tangent.
Sorry, that's very helpful or notappreciate you
sharing the knowledge and the wisdomthat you've gathered over all these years.
So, you know, another component isand I talk to my team about this
all the time is I think that there'sthere's some timeless principles
that will never go out of styleand have always been in style.
(25:06):
So, for example,
when we're dealing with client cases,
there will never be a future inwhich clients don't want more convenience.
And so we go out of our way to try to makethe process
is convenient as possible, you know,anticipate our client's needs, anticipate
what they might be thinking aboutor worried about what they might need,
(25:28):
when they might need
a status update or something,even if there isn't an update to report.
So those kinds of things,we are cognizant of those.
And so, for example,I think that convenience is
it is a timeless principlewhen it comes to business and marketing.
And I, I think that, you know, I remember
you mentioned earlierthe 3D glasses and the 3D TVs coming out.
(25:50):
And immediately I was like,this is not going to work because,
you know intuitively this ideaof convenience, it violated that principle
because nobody really wantsto charge out the headset
to be able to sit downand watch television.
It requires too much foresightand forethought
about how
and when you're going to watch televisionand then require something to strap
on to your head or put on your overyour eyes to just simply watch TV.
(26:13):
I think it violates that principle.
I think also this ideaof being able to tell a story
is also one of those timeless principles
of whether marketing or business.
What would you say, Angela, is
or some of the other timeless principlesthat you've noticed over the years?
(26:35):
I mean, certainly storytelling isand there is, you know, the
the PS of marketing, right?
Price and placement and promotionand but I, I think it's
I again, I,
I go back to that
(26:56):
understanding,taking the time to understand the needs
and wants of your customers.
I mean any plan I've ever built,that's a huge component of it
because ultimately if I don't know them,how do I either way market to them?
How do I convince them thatthat that I've got the right product?
And and so for me it'sthere's kind of this process that I use
(27:20):
is, you know, defining my competitorsand really
breaking them downinto their into the nuances.
I call itdeconstructing and reconstructing.
I break them all down,I reconstruct them back up
and I look for the gapsand the areas that I could benefit from.
And then but the big one is,is understanding your customers.
(27:42):
That means talking to them.
And then it's
interesting, over the yearsof how many people have never talk
or talked very little to their customersjust because
they're buying your continue to buyyour product doesn't necessarily mean
you know that somebody else'sand trying to sell them or they're happy.
(28:03):
And so I think from that standpoint,back to you,
you know, being serviceoriented is is that's all part of it.
And ultimately,if you're selling or servicing
a client, it'sit's about that communications.
And so having that
constant dialog to understandif you disappear, stuff can happen.
(28:25):
And and so again I'm I think if I couldpick one thing that I think is,
is really importantis that customer understanding
and that contributes to your storytellingand everything else, right?
So they all build on each other.
They're all the building blocks.
And I like to talk about for me, it's,you know, we're building the foundation,
(28:45):
which to build,you know, the house on, right?
The blueprint.
You know, you would go outand build a house without understanding,
you know, how many roomsand what you want, what's the flow
and so that's reallywhat I like to think of is is kind of the
the tried and true as we build thatfoundation and we know how to build it,
we know how the customerswant to use the rooms,
(29:06):
how they want to watch, where they wantto watch television, right.
All those different things.
If we want to draw analogiesand and that's how we construct
and build the go to plans,because I have that understanding.
And I think that's again I, I think that's
is is key.
Yeah, I agree.
(29:26):
So Angela,if people want to find out more about you
and your business,how can they find you online?
Yeah, the easiest way is LinkedIn.
I'm on LinkedInand LinkedIn has connections to my website
and, and that's,you know, kind of the other big resource.
I do have a lot of free resources.
There have ebooks have a little minimarketing course
(29:47):
and all sorts of videosand things like that. So
but yeah, LinkedIn is the easiest.
Awesome.
Okay, well look, I appreciate yousharing some of your knowledge with us.
And you know,
I know I've gotten some great takeawaysand hopefully the listeners have as well.
I have no doubt that they did.
And to all the listeners,if you like this episode,
(30:10):
make sure you like and subscribeso you can hear
when new episodes are coming outso you don't miss a beat.
And Angelo, thank you so muchfor joining me here today on From Crisis
to Justice.
He very much appreciate all.
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