May 8, 2025 • 44 mins
If the world is on fire, can we help put it out?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
How can we reshape our mindsetsto navigate the tension between this
(00:04):
instant gratification and the imperativeto look forward for the Seven Generations?
We kind of get too political todayright away about it,
not seeing the big picture.
Also that well, at some pointwe got to hand off a world
to the next generation,and the generation after that.
Welcome
to this episode of Full Circle,a show where we confront Canada's pressing
(00:28):
challenges and societal issuesalongside the country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Vail,CEO of Deloitte Canada and Chile,
and I'm thrilled tohave you join us. On this episode.
we're asking the question,if the world is on fire.
can we help put it out?
I had the pleasure of sitting downwith Cadmus Delorme.
(00:48):
Cadmus is the former chief of the CowessessFirst Nation in southern Saskatchewan
and the founding partner and chairof OneHoop, an Indigenous advisory
service with an expertisein government relations. And Usha
Sthankiya, co-hosted with me.Usha is the offering leader
for sustainabilityand climate at Deloitte Canada.
Please enjoy this episode of Full Circle.
(01:14):
It's great to be here with you today.
Cadmus, thank you for joining us.
And, here with my colleague Usha.Usha thank you for joining us.
Thank you,
AV.
Cadmus,can you elaborate on how understanding
and valuing our connectionto something larger than humanity
can help usmake better sustainability decisions
and think about the long termimpact of our actions?
(01:37):
Uh, thank you very much,
a good day,everybody. It's an honor to be here.
Cadmus Delorme, Cowessess First Nation andcoming to you from treaty four territory.
In southern Saskatchewan.
You know, todayI find it that individuals in our country,
Indigenous, non-Indigenous,everybody that calls themselves
a Canadian,you know, we all have drivers in life.
(01:58):
You know, some of us want to pursuea career that's higher.
You know, some of us go for, wealth,some of us just go for prosperity.
And the question is,what are we willing to give up
to get long term sustainable growth
when it comes to ESG, when
it comes to environment,when it comes to just us being stewards to
(02:19):
to the land and to our children yetunborn? Something Indigenous
like to really focus onis Seven Generations ahead.
Institutions and businessplay a role when it comes to just,
you know, our drives an economyand then individual's play a role.
And so, you know,everybody's duty of care is different.
I do see a lot of challenges,but I also see a lot of opportunities.
(02:42):
And it kind of it ends upbeing between our ears and how our kitchen
table kind of talked about itgrowing up as well.
It's interesting, Cadmus, when you talk,
about what we're going to give upfor the long term sustainability.
And I like
and maybeyou should share for our listeners your two,
(03:05):
Canoe analogybecause I think it's a beautiful one.
We're not talking about stopping progressper say, the giving up is slowing
something down or speeding something elseup so that we can be remain in balance.
But maybe we can expanda little bit on that for sure.
You know, I, I, teach leadership.
And one of the things I teachis about what reconciliation means.
(03:25):
So I'm going to teach the two canoesfrom a reconciliation perspective.
But if others want to kind of use itfor different,
other areas that, that they can adopt itto, please do so.
You know, in one canoe in our countryis Indigenous people. Inuit
First Nations and Métis. Who are rightsholders in this country, validated
with the Supreme Court of Canadaover 270 times.
(03:46):
So our three distinct indigenousgroups are Inuit, First Nations, and Métis.
So when I say Indigenous, I'm please,
I'm not trying to put us in a potthat we're all the same.
We're all distinct in this country.
The other canoe is Canada.
You know, Canada was in 1867, the BritishNorth American Act created a country.
And so those two canoes should be besideone another,
(04:07):
that that'swhat true reconciliation means.
But we inherited a history.
You know,nobody today created what we are now
learning were once residential schools,the Indian Act, the 60 Scoop
and every other policy or legislationthat impacted indigenous
people to not be the bestwe can be in this country.
So think of it like two canoes besideeach other, you know, one canoe.
(04:28):
Indigenous people just fell behinda little bit due to the Indian Act.
And now as Canadians
and Indigenous people,we just have to understand,
we need investmentin that indigenous canoe
so that we can catch up
and align each other as howwe were supposed to be at the beginning.
Once we get there, you'd be amazed atwhat our country can accomplish together
economically, socially,and strategically moving forward.
(04:53):
Thank you for sharingthat, and I couldn't agree with you more.
In terms of the potentialfor a great country
like Canada, but also the potentialfor humans to thrive.
And, on a more broader levelacross the globe.
You mentioned it earlier.
You know, thethe Seven Generation thinking,
can you share more insights on that topicand how we could potentially use
(05:17):
that thinking in the context of, you know,
sustainability?
I want to bring it from two perspectives.
And I'm Indigenous.
I'm, Cree.
I'm, Anishinabek or Saulteaux.
The first thing is, is the full cycleof of how we understand how life works.
You know, Earth provides water, you know,
(05:39):
through its cycles, through rainand everything like that.
The animalsthen will sometimes drink that,
well, they have to, drink the water.
You know, at times, as people,we're going to rely on animals
to keep us sustained,to keep us productive.
And then, you know, at some point,you know, it goes full cycle.
So everything is connectedis where I'm going with this.
(05:59):
You know, being taught that growing up,
that everything is a cycle,everything has a purpose.
And you must give itthat full respect in its role.
It plays in our inin your life, in society.
You know, a secondperspective is Indigenous.
You know, when we had our meetings,two, 200 years ago, my ancestors,
you know,we didn't have an elected official system.
(06:22):
Everybody just played a role.
The great grandparents played a role.
What they were major legislation,the Constitution.
And our grandparents were the,you know, the by the, the
the major legislations, kind of like your,your Bank Act of Canada.
And then you had your parentswho were the policies and bylaws,
and then you had the children
and the teenagerswho were just the helpers and in the room.
(06:43):
Why I say that in the cycleof how we're talking about environment
and sustainability is Indigenous,
everybody had a role.
It, just because you were a certaingeneration
didn't mean you played an important role.
Everybody had a roleand you earned your rankings
to that next role because of life,not because of your wealth, not
because of, you know, your success,but it's how you work together
(07:07):
in a collective, in a tribal system.
And so, you know, when,when many make decisions today,
we think, how is this decisiongoing to impact Seven Generations ahead?
And I'll give you one examplejust to conclude my comment here.
I grew up in southern Saskatchewanaround the Qu'Appelle Valley.
You know,I grew up swimming at Crooked Lake.
(07:29):
You know, my entire youth bringing.And I loved it.
There were just a lake with fish in it,and we had a lot of fun. Today,
You know,I take my kids to that same lake.
Do I let my kids swim in it? Certain daysI do, but you know, it
it that lake has changed.
Has it changed for the better? No.
You know upstream we are dependent.
(07:50):
And so, you know, that's the challenge ishow do you think Seven Generations ago
when we're starting to see the impactsof just one generation?
And so, you know, there are cyclesand I know there are non-Indigenous
teachings out there as well.And I don't want to disrespect them.
But what I shared with youis just a few ideas of how Indigenous
perspectivethink of Seven Generations ahead.
(08:10):
Yeah, I appreciate that, Cadmus.
I really like this concept of the cycle.
And as you're talking about,
you know, the water cycle,I think about when my kids come home
and tell methey learn about the water cycle,
they don't learn about the animalsdrinking it
and the passing through of othersand so on.
It's, you know, clouds, lake evaporation.
And so this idea that even something,that we take for granted as the
(08:32):
what's the water cycle,we are still missing a piece of it.
And, and then your connection to the role
each person plays within a communityreally also struck me
that there are defined roles,and you earn the next piece of it.
And I wonder when you reflect on today,
(08:53):
whether you think that we're confusedabout what our roles are,
what our connections are, or ifif we've just decided it wasn't important.
I find that
you know, that parent to to child is really important.
You know, I'll give you an example.
In the 1970s,when a child would get sent home
(09:16):
from schoolbecause of something that happened,
the principal would usually say,
listen, come back with your parentand let's sit down and talk about this.
So the parent will show up,the child will show up and the principal
and the teacher, they'll talk about it.
The parent will usually disciplinethe child right there and in the bad lead.
And they would get back to, you know,there was a good structure that way today.
(09:37):
If you were to do that,this is what would happen.
The child would get sent homewith a letter or an email.
The parent will show up to the school.
And this is like, really,
And like not everybody, but
the parent will start blaming the teacherin the education system
before they even startto find out what the situation was.
(09:58):
I help people today and talk with peopleabout their roles and duties
and leadership,
and how we're all leaders, andI think we can move a lot faster together.
I think that's a good place to startfor all of us.
And a good segue into,
the next, conversation topic.
When we consider the long termconsequences of our individual actions,
(10:20):
they play such a crucial rolein the context of climate solutions
and mitigating the long term consequences
of some of the decisions we makethat can impact climate change.
And I look at,
you know, some of the datawhich would sort of suggest
that that we can reduce,
(10:40):
emissions by 70% by 2050
by just changing our individual action,actions.
And, I think of,
renowned scientists, and authora Vaclav Smil.
He says that there's a low probability,if not,
impossibility of energizingthe world's economy
without fossil fuels by 2050.
(11:03):
And he says it with billions of peoplewho want to burn fossil fuel all the time.
And this is very littlethat we can do about.
So using your, like looking in the mirror
and what we can actually do,taking some responsibility,
you know,
the significance of addressingsome of these long term,
consequences.
(11:24):
How can we reshape our mindset
to navigate the tensionbetween this instant gratification,
the imperative to look forwardfor the Seven Generations, to make sure
that we've got a planetwhere humans can thrive on?
Look at, look at our kitchen tables.
Like I want to start at our kitchen tables
in this countryeverybody has a kitchen table.
(11:44):
At some pointyou were raised at a kitchen table.
If you're a new Canadian and this isyour you're the first generation here.
Your kitchen table prior to being herealso you know makes an impact
on how we make decisions today.
But I was raised by two babyboomer, generation.
I took pride in every little thing.
And you know, but growing upI grew up where,
(12:06):
you know, my mom and dad would throwthe odd KFC bag out the window
after we were done eatingand didn't think anything of it. You know.
And then finally, in my 20s, it took meto realize at how that was wrong.
Like, you shouldn't be throwing thingsout of your vehicle.
You can wait till the next gas stationand just put it in the garbage
when you fill up your tank.
(12:26):
I was a generational differencein just understanding what that meant.
Then I started toto make sure my parents did it as well.
I went back to my kitchen table.
I find today
that, you know, I'll say carbon tax.
You say carbon tax in a provinceand you know right away how political
your province is.
(12:46):
But I find sometimes between our earsand our kitchen table,
we kind of get too political todayright away about it
not seeing the big picture.
Also that well, at some pointwe gotta hand off
a world to the next generationand the generation after that.
So, but the adventure is, ishow do we hand off a Canada
(13:06):
to two generations aheadthat, you know, has a good
land, has goodwater, has a safe environment?
Canada plays a role.
But we're a small in this entire world.
Like, you know, when you know,when you start to study it, you know,
we're just actually a small impactin the big world itself.
Yeah.
I think about my kitchen tablegrowing up with
(13:28):
also in southern Saskatchewan,swimming in different lakes.
Yeah.
And, you
know, I was raised by two immigrants.
So, a different perspective altogetherwhere these types
of topics of sustainability,they're tied in economics,
you don't waste water,you turn off the lights,
you don't waste food that that it's it'sthe driver was really economic
(13:52):
for my parents who came from a placewhere you can't you can't afford to waste.
Right.
That this is, this is a luxury.
And in fact, and in this,
I had the same parents, by the way.
In southern Saskatchewan?
This is the southwest Saskatchewanstop at Australia.
Yeah.
And and so this idea that that and
(14:12):
the other piece in Cadmus,you talk about the different generations,
I also was lucky to grow upwith aunts and uncles nearby,
my grandparents nearby, visitinganother set of grandparents often.
And you feel this, at least for meas a kid the generations before, right?
Certainly.
And now if I look at my own kids,
my parents and in-laws are therethat they've got a little bit of buffer
on, on both sides of thinking,both in the past and looking forward.
(14:37):
And, it brings me to this complexityof identities.
And Cadmus,
you talked about the different rolesearly on and graduating into those.
But in some ways, you know, I am aI am a mother now, but I'm still a child,
and a grandchildand have have differing
roles that have different setsof responsibilities.
(14:57):
And I think about the complexity of thosein shaping our decisions,
of which which of those rolesam I making these decisions for?
When am I thinking about,
future generations?
Am I always thinking about future and pastof how do I navigate that?
And Cadmus, I'm curiousin your perspective of
as all the different rolesstart to come together,
(15:19):
how do you navigate toto our responsibilities, both from a,
you know, a dim's perspective in the nowand also the brights and in what's ahead?
I feel it comes down to truth
and just understandinghow our brains were wired.
And what I mean by that isevery one of us were taught differently.
(15:40):
You think of generations in this country.
Baby boomers were taught a certaincurriculum.
Generation X was at a certain curriculum.
GenerationY was taught a certain curriculum.
Today, the millennials, generation Z,and then the new Canadians
that are coming here.
Everybody is taught differentlyin our brains, and some of us are
pretty set in our ways, you know,and I meet all different perspectives.
(16:02):
And, you know,sometimes I disagree with them
and they disagree with me onhow to get there.
But we should all agree on the end goal.
And the end goal is simple.
We want a country that we can havea strong economics, a very safe country
where our kids can benefitfrom the beautiful lands.
And so, you know,how do we and we want equality, you know,
(16:23):
and how do we get there?
That's the challenge we're going to faceis how do we create
uncomfortable conversations where we don't
we can disagree with one another andand still focus on the end goal?
We're going to disagree onhow to get there.
The three of us will disagree on howto get there just in three conversations.
Then lastly,I find today it's tough to disagree.
(16:44):
You know, if you tell somebodyin this country you're conservative,
you know,if you tell someone you're liberal,
like that means something different today.
It's like
it's like you carry so much extra weighteven before the conversation starts.
Like 30 years ago, you'd say that
Then you go for a beer after our coffee,you know, like, I mean, let's this.
But today you can't do that in this.
Like sowe have to change between our years
(17:06):
and how we can disagreeand then how we can get there.
And we gotta highlightthe polarization that's happening.
It's not an easy goal right nowto have a conversation on how we disagree
on how to get there.
Which doesn't provide much of a foundationto solve
some pretty existential challengesthat we're talking about today.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
(17:27):
And it's just,you know, we've all got a role to play.
Pull that mirror outand have a look at ourselves to,
what are we doing to to reverse
some of those trends that youthat you're talking about. But.
You know, AV,this idea that you look in the mirror,
but we also need as a collectiveto hold both ourselves and organizations
(17:50):
and others around us accountableand and not just from a political sense,
but also from from a businesses, thethe people in our own families
that there does need to bethat shared, shared accountability.
And and I wonder, Cadmus,if you think about
that holding us our ourselves accountable
as that, as that collective,how would that shape the future?
(18:13):
What would that look like?
I'll break it into regions. We do haveand goals.
You know, in Saskatchewan,
you know, we want an end goal to make surethat we're economically stable,
that we have a fiscal relationship
with our with our governmentand everything of that nature.
But how do we keep each other accountablewhen it comes to the environment
side of things, is to understandthat we're an agriculture province,
(18:37):
that we're a potash provinceor an oil province.
And so how do we keep each otheraccount accountable?
I think we have to reeducate as well
and what it meansfrom a different perspective.
Sometimes we get tunnel vision and you seethe word mosaic or or nutrien somewhere.
It does make its impact.
But sometimes your duty of careis to your shared stakeholder.
(18:58):
And how do we make sure our duty of careis to Seven Generations ahead as well?
And we're trying.
But I find we have to reeducate ourselvessometimes,
like we have to understand whatwhat is the big impact, our duty of care.
We got to make sure that our duty of careis not just to,
you know, the best dollar and so forth,but other means
That are maybe non-monetary,which is tough to discuss.
(19:22):
Well there, you say reeducateand it's interesting dialog to,
and debate that's happened
over the last 50 yearsthat arrived at a position where show
shareholder supremacy should be the firstand foremost. I think you're talking
broadly there, Cadmus, aroundthis concept of stakeholder supremacy.
(19:44):
Which, you know, I would sayis, is probably losing that battle.
At present.
But it's certainlywhen you think about stakeholder,
you can think about, you know, the,your employees, you can think about
your community,you can think about the planet,
and environment around us, orand where you're taking us.
(20:04):
I think Cadmus was Seven Generationsinto the future.
It's complicated, but that doesn't meanwe shouldn't be heading
towards that, that way.
In that debate of shareholdersupremacy to stakeholder supremacy,
are we asking the right questionor can we simplify it even more?
Have you got any thoughts on that?
You know,I think ESG has really given us a lot
(20:26):
of focus, environment, social,
governance.
A lot of the,
market now is measured on ESG.
You know, that's that's something 20 yearsago you wouldn't really measure it on.
But now today it's it's normal,you know, it's normal.
And in on internal audits to, to externalanybody buying stock. If it,
(20:48):
if it's a public traded company,if it's a private company
ESG is still a part of it.
And Indigenous now is startingto become a part of that as well.
You know,what role does reconciliation Indigenous.
So I find asking the right questions.
It comes with at the end.
Is your profit or shareholderrelationship impacted?
(21:10):
That is probably a really bigis the right question being asked.
You know,in the last 10 years, have we shifted?
I wouldn't say we really
shifted and pivotedas much as we probably could.
But at the same time,we have to understand that
everybody is reelected or kept in the CEO
(21:30):
based on how much profit and sharesthey can increase.
So, you know, many great leadersprobably want a strong environment,
but at the same time,
what are they willing to give upbecause the pie doesn't get bigger,
in order to get that.
And sometimes to keep your job,you have to
prove it through wealth and through budget
(21:51):
and through deficit reduction.
So that's the challenge I find is,is the right question being asked?
Yeah.
Feels like the the wayin which we measure that success
doesn't match up to what we wantthat organization to be there for.
You know, a bankis there for for the people to use, right?
(22:12):
Yes. It gets very complex.
I don't want to understate that,but it's there for for investment.
And yet we will measure its success onstock price and, and CEO value.
I'm going to transition,
a little bit,
when we talk about,we talked a lot about Canada.
There are other countries around the worldthat,
(22:33):
that we believe,have a better relationship
or with, with, with the, with the earth,if you will.
And then in the context of the SevenGenerations that we've spoken about,
I don't know if, you got any countriesin mind that you think,
are doing it better that we couldperhaps be inspired by?
(22:54):
Well, I'm not sure about better,
Maybe just differentand definitely inspirational.
And I spend a lot of my timelooking elsewhere and
and looking for interesting storiesand examples of, of
what could we do that's different,and applicable in our context?
And I came across, a story from Denmark
where there is an island called Samsø,and I hope I'm pronouncing that properly.
(23:19):
But this island decided to be completelysustained by renewable energy.
So there was, a pipeline that wentfrom the mainland to the island fuel,
from fossil that was providing fossilfuels to run life on, on the island.
And they independently decidedthat they didn't
they didn't want to be dependenton fossil fuels.
So what if they werejust dependent on on renewables?
(23:42):
And so the community,the local municipalities,
the municipal government,and all of the businesses got together.
And I'm completely oversimplifyingthe effort it takes in the both
in the collaboration,the communication, the negotiation.
Right?
There are winners and losersin this as well.
(24:02):
It sounds like a beautiful storyof energy transition, but
there are certainly ups and downsin this process.
But collectively,they decided that their outcome was
to be, completely carbon free.
And they're trying to get there
completely by, by 2030 and not useany fossil fuels, on the island.
(24:22):
But the most significant part ofthat was being,
dependent on what could they generateon the island itself?
And so I think about that,and it's very easy to say, oh, well,
let's first of all, it's Denmark.
And then so different, different country,different, political situation and so on.
So, that would never happen elsewhere.
And second, it's an island and it's smalland there's fewer people.
(24:45):
Like it's very easy to rationalizewhy we can't do that.
But for me, it's quiteinspiring that a group of people
with different,
different
drivers and, and different,
benefiting in different ways,have collectively agreed
to make both sacrifices and benefitfrom, from, from this transition.
(25:09):
And, and
so, you know, I think, well,could that work?
What does that look likein a Canadian context?
What could we do that's similar?
Not in taking a piece of landand making it,
carbon free necessarily.
But rather,how do you take that same, same vision
of, of collectivescoming together for, for collective good?
(25:33):
Yeah.
And I think that's the beauty of the storyis not the transition
to green necessarily,but the communities come together
and they'vethey've had some give and take.
I think that's where you started as Cadmusto sort of say who's
who's going to give nowto sort of provide later.
Um, um, for me
That's what really resonates.
(25:54):
That's the secretsauce if we can get that.
Foundationally,I think we are all ready to transition.
It'll never be 100%.
That's one thingI've learned to this date.
And pleaseI will pivot again when I learn more.
But you know in in central in Canada,in Saskatchewan, you know, we will
always rely on a little bit of,you know, just, you know,
(26:16):
some of our current,but we can transition a lot.
And I've learned during my timewhen I was Chief, we,
we did a ten megawatt solar field.
We did a 36 turbine, a 200 megawattturbine.
And, you know, we had to collaboratewith the local landowners.
It wasn't just a First Nation thing.
It was local landownersand no one ever opposed it.
(26:37):
You know, many had questions.Is it too loud?
Is it going to,you know, affect the bird cycle?
You know,what about the bats and so forth.
And we did all of our due diligenceand even above it, like we brought in
elders, Indigenous elders to come inand kind of just do that as well.
I was on top of the duty to consult that.
We had to do so, you know,all we sell back to the grid as well.
(26:57):
So it's not just for Cowessess, people, it'sto help the Saskatchewan power grid.
So, I do see that transition happening.
It just takes, you know, really goodunderstanding to the economics of it.
That's why we're doing it.
You know, we're doing it not justfor the environment but as a Chief.
You know, we did it
and got approval from houses membersbecause it also economically benefits us.
(27:20):
And so it's it's it's in all areasthat it's
environmentallyshould be normal to us now to do this.
But economicallythere is a benefit as well.
That's a great example.
Two great examples there of of you know,
where Canada can start for inspiration.
And I do believe that we, we will get
(27:40):
this transition right, particularlytaking a Seven Generation mindset.
You know, I, I'm glass half full, Cadmus.
So, I believe that people like you said,
those nine and 10 peoplereally want to get things done.
We just got to have the right leadershipto be able to do that.
But I think in the context of whatthis topic today,
(28:02):
sustainable future, is morethan just energy transition as well.
It's like we touched on inclusion andnot leaving folk behind on this journey.
And I, thinkeven the way you describe in the,
you know, the the roles that everyoneplayed in the terms of decision making,
from the grandparents to the parentsto the to the children, if you will.
(28:23):
That was to me,
that's all about inclusion as welland making sure that everyone's on the,
you know, equally informed broadalong on the journey, much like
you would have had to do, Cadmusfor the that energy,
investments that you're making on behalfof your First Nation as well.
Like, I think that's animportant takeaway, as well.
(28:44):
In the context of,
energy transition, and moving fastertowards,
a lower clean carbon future.
Is there any other insightsthat we should share with the audience?
Either from yourself, Cadmus,
Or Usha? Beyond the economic, I think.
Is there any other, thingsthat we should be thinking about?
(29:07):
Well, I'm going to answer your questionwith a question,
which is one of the things that I grapplewith is,
[pause], and even in the, the,
faculty with codethat you gave one of his arguments
is that history doesn't showthat this is possible.
And where I get confused
(29:29):
is, well, history doesn't really show thatany of what we have today is possible.
If we looked only to history,we wouldn't be here.
And and yet we we get stuck in
trying to,
have a clear path to how
and what exactlyit will look like before we move forward.
(29:49):
And so we get really easilywrap ourselves in this inertia,
and an unwillingness to give time the,
the just the change to,to let it flow and…
The opportunity to get to it.
Yeah, exactly.
And so,you know, my question to that as well.
What, what, what shifts forfor us to get out of that inertia
(30:11):
to believe in the future,not knowing what that's like.
And rather than being so,deferential to, to our history?
I wish you were in the room with mehere, Cadmus,
And maybe she could have looked at youto ask that, difficult question, but I,
you know, on reflection,I just had the opportunity
to spend some time at,one of the local universities,
(30:35):
and we were talking aroundthis concept of bricolage,
which is putting togetherthings that are in existence today,
but combining them in different waysfor different sort of outcomes.
So when you're sort of talk talking about,yeah,
it is true, we don't know howall this is going to play out.
But there is an argument to sort ofsay we already got the component parts,
and we've listedsome terrific examples today
(30:57):
to sort of solve some of these, problems.
We don't know actuallyhow it's all going to come together,
but I would bet we've got some ofthe component parts to be able to do that.
But I think your patience topic,
maybe that was somethingwe were touching on earlier about
We're all been programedto have this instant gratification,
these sort of solutionsare not going to be instant.
(31:17):
They're going to be long term commitments.
There's going to be a lot of mistakesalong the way.
But in the context of what'swhere is coming back, to earlier,
when I said glass half full,I'm confident we'll pull them together.
We get good people together,well led in a direction being included.
We can pull it together,and to solve some of these.
I was able to go to Inuvik in 2018.
(31:41):
That's right. In the Arctic Circlein the Northwest Territories.
And I'm a southern Saskatchewan person.
And so that was my first big eye openerfor climate change.
When I was able to go and meetsome of the local Indigenous,
and they started to share with us, likethere was a delegate of delegates of us
about how we even, as deep as how that
(32:03):
that the world has shifted a little bit.
And I was sitting with this grandmother,this kokum,
as we say, in the Indigenous language,
and she was telling me aboutand she was a little girl to how,
you know, even up in Inuvik,how it's changed.
And I tell you, I came homewith a different perspective, you know.
And so why I started off with thatis it's about our attitude
(32:24):
and understanding the roles we play.
And I find, you know how todaywe have a Truth and Reconciliation
Commission and 94 calls to actionwhen it comes to reconciliation? In there
it defines the role
institutions play, the role individualsplay, the role governments play.
We have to start to look at climate changelike that as well.
Interesting.
(32:45):
I think we don't have a strategic plan.
And that's why as Canadians, we're like
all in different perspectives of it.
We lean too muchon our political bodies to do it
and be real, we can't just provide ourour institutions.
I think it's Canadians.
This is so important to us.
That is probably our best approachfor us to give us a good guideline
(33:09):
in each role we play, from kitchen tables
to institutions to governmentand to just everybody else.
It's such a fascinating idea.
And the the topic where we started withis pointing to everybody else to do this,
some something.
And this idea of a commission,of bringing together
all of the interestedand affected parties, which is everyone,
(33:31):
right, from grassroots organizations,individuals, all, all the way through,
to build a planand then focus on on the plan.
I love it.
I'm, I'm going to start this afterI leave this room.
Probably I'll be answeringthe next question as well.
You know,what should we start with tomorrow?
(33:51):
It sounds like a commissionmight be a good place to start.
To do that.One thing Usha, you've shared with me
before, and you have enlightened me, is,
in a lot of my language
I've been talking about saving the planet,and, in turning it around to sort of say
It's about humans saving themselves,because the planet's
(34:14):
going to be herea lot longer than we are as humans.
The way we're going, anyway.
That's that's another
that's another thing that I thinkabout in terms of what do we start to do
Tomorrow? Is just to sort of think aboutwho we're actually saving here.
I think starts with, again,looking in the mirror.
We're saving ourselvesin these next Seven Generations.
(34:36):
I'm not sure if youif you knew you had that impact on me
with that saying, but,are we using that going forward
That's for sure.
You know, one of the things I,
I study leadership and I study leadership
from centuries ago to today,you know, as as humans,
we are challenged, you know, everyone of us have a problem in our life.
(35:00):
It's some of us.
It's personal, some of with our family,some of us, it's just our community.
It's it'sSomething. We all have challenges
And as humans today,we got to be tough about it.
You don't share it too much.So we all kind of have this sphere.
I'm not getting too, too personal on us,but I'm going to lead to I find a society
we tend to
(35:20):
it's hard for us to get along.
And in moments like this,you think about 200 years ago
and what was happening, if it was wars inand different country, we kind of our
our own worst enemiesthrough our whole existence.
And this is our moment now,like our moment right now in this world is
do we want to keep our worldas best as we can?
(35:42):
I think this is going to be our biggest
human society challenge in moving forward.
And the other one is inequality.
And they work hand in hand.
You know, the the have nots,the ones that are just challenged.
I don't mean in a bad way.
I think climate change is going to impactthem in a very negative way, like water
in the next generation
(36:04):
is going to be like, go pretty soon,
like it is going to start to be like inlike that's really we're getting there.
And if you have the profit and the kitchen
table dollars to buy good water,you're good for another generation.
But the ones that don't have it,
that's going to be a huge taxon governments to try help subsidize.
(36:24):
So, we're getting there.
I can see the patternsand I sure hope that we understand
the rolewe play today to try and balance, Well,
I think that humans are both amazingand a little bit scary,
and yet we have the capacityto do something different,
to act in a way that take care that takewhere we're taking care of each other.
(36:48):
And connecting to something much bigger.
To your point,the Earth is going to be here.
The Earth will figure it out.
It's just whether humans can be hereon that Earth or not.
And and so I,
you know, if our, our decision is we wantto be around for as long as possible
before we become extinct,something needs to to shift, right?
(37:10):
And not just a select group of humans.
You know, I if I can start to givesome optimistic ideas
and just realistic to to what we do iswhat is the situation that we're in.
You know, to look aroundand is there anything that we can take
out of our current lifethat would help Seven Generations ahead?
You know, I, I have way too muchpaper bags that I put in a recycling bin.
(37:34):
But, you know,you're always going to have year ones
that are going to find everything wrongand it's around what you're doing.
But at the end of the day, you know,we just need to do the little things.
It's one day at a time, you know,sometimes taking on the big, big decisions.
Yeah, you lead up to them.
But it's just likeinvesting in your money.
Think of it like that.With the environment.
It's it's it's not monetary.
(37:55):
Just one day at a time.
You're just going to gain
a little interest one day at a time,and you're going to be wealthy
when you get old.
Accept it may not be money, it'sjust for your personal contribution
to making our worldready for Seven Generations ahead.
Well, that might be, a great wayto end it.
One day at a time.
Little steps.
Start with yourself.
(38:18):
Rely on, you know,
the goodness in, in humanityto just see a way through this.
But, it's been a wonderful conversation.
And, thank you,Cadmus and Usha, for joining us.
Thank you both. I really enjoyed it.
And to the listeners,thanks for the opportunity to share.
(38:40):
What’d you learn today
Usha?
Well, this concept of the kitchen tablereally resonated with me.
This idea that you've got multiplegenerations and real conversation.
If I think about my own kitchen table,
growing up, it was argumentsand discussion and and discussion to learn
and to to just hear and evaluatea different viewpoint.
(39:03):
And the point Cadmus makesabout how difficult it is
to disagree really resonated that wewe can't have those conversations.
And if you think about the solutionsthat we're talking about or this future
that we're looking to be able to get there
without fulsome conversationand and appreciation
for all the different perspectivesfeels a pretty tricky path to walk.
(39:28):
Yeah, I like I like to the kitchen table
and and you spoke a little bitabout your own circumstances.
You got some visibility for the,the generations, the before you.
So, if anything, like my family,
when you get a couple of generationsat the table, we never agree on anything.
But you do learn how to disagreewith each other.
(39:48):
You do learn to respect each other. And,
you know,
you'reconstantly in that state of discussion.
If you will, trying to inventyou're not surround yourselves with,
people that think exactly the same wayas you and reinforcing,
you know, some of your, your perspectivesrather than challenging
some of your perspectives and,and growing as a result.
(40:10):
So, I think that's that wasan important takeaway for me when we're
talking about sustainable future,
a future is going to have disagreement.
And how do you develop the tools?
And I think Cadmus gave us some, some foodfor thought
around the importance of the kitchen tableto be able to do that.
(40:30):
I thought also as an immigrant,
little son of, of immigrants, if you will.
I got to see firsthand of the
the toil that immigrantsgo through as well.
I worry about the next generation,my children,
and even more so, my children'schildren are not going to see that.
(40:52):
That and the compromise.
And, you know, the sacrifice,
because we talk a little bitabout the sacrifice as well.
Like, you know, I knowwe use in this country paying it forward.
The generation before me,it was paying it forward.
And, unlike the hopethat I'm doing the right thing
by returning on that investment.
But then being able to turn it around forfor my children,
(41:15):
their children, to be able to pay itforward for them as well was, another,
another thing that sort of resonatedwhen I heard the conversation today.
And to me, that connects to the piecehe was talking about, of the cycle
of understanding the connectionright of the it rains and falls
in the lake and animals drink itand so on that, that
where where current generationmay not feel the same toil,
(41:37):
the physical toil that that generationspreviously have,
where they can make a different connectionto something much broader,
feels that there's
hope in that way of the appreciation,the same appreciation
you get from the,you know, hard work, physical, hard work.
You can also get byby seeing this in action,
(41:59):
through througha completely different cycle.
That's not just about humans. I love.
I love that, because the wayyou described it to and what
we spoke about,it was a very scientific thing.
Water evaporation, cloudrain, water evaporation, go around.
That's one way you can look at it.
But the way, Cadmus sort of relate
Well, that water doesa whole bunch of other things,
(42:22):
and they're the stakeholders in my mind.
So, you just, you know, worriedabout preserving that cycle of water
or you worried about the cycle of lifethat comes from that water.
And, that's something I'll take with megoing forward, too.
Yeah.
That's such an interesting, connectionthere.
That and both are true.
The scientific cycle is true,as is the natural cycle of of of how it,
(42:47):
how it functions in practice.
Right?
And you, you will need both,and depending on where you are,
what your perspective is,you will see one, one more than the other.
The other thing that, Cadmus talkedabout a lot is looking in the mirror.
And that's, that's athat's a terrific takeaway.
I think we've got to do morelooking in the mirror,
(43:09):
and looking to ourselves to be part of thesolution, rather than looking at others
or relying on others to rectify the wrongsthat we have as individuals.
That was that was a powerful takeaway.
It's simple, but it's a powerful takeaway.
One thing that our listeners
should take away?
(43:31):
Can I give you two things?
Yeah. You most definitely can.
Do something,
Would would be.
One is don't get stuck in the inertia,but but do something.
Take some action.
And and the second thingis listen to a different viewpoint.
Just listen.
(43:51):
You don't have to agree, but
try try thinking about what
a different perspective might look likeand and see where that takes you.
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Listening.
It could solve a lot of issues. I'm sure.
Thank you again. Thank you.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony Viel and original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
(44:13):
Rate and review this series on ApplePodcasts, and if you haven't already,
don't forget to subscribe to Full Circleon your favorite podcast platform.
How can we reshape our mindsetsto navigate the tension between this
(00:04):
instant gratification and the imperativeto look forward for the Seven Generations?
We kind of get too political todayright away about it,
not seeing the big picture.
Also that well, at some pointwe got to hand off a world
to the next generation,and the generation after that.
Welcome
to this episode of Full Circle,a show where we confront Canada's pressing
(00:28):
challenges and societal issuesalongside the country's leading thinkers.
I'm your co-host, Anthony Vail,CEO of Deloitte Canada and Chile,
and I'm thrilled tohave you join us. On this episode.
we're asking the question,if the world is on fire.
can we help put it out?
I had the pleasure of sitting downwith Cadmus Delorme.
(00:48):
Cadmus is the former chief of the CowessessFirst Nation in southern Saskatchewan
and the founding partner and chairof OneHoop, an Indigenous advisory
service with an expertisein government relations. And Usha
Sthankiya, co-hosted with me.Usha is the offering leader
for sustainabilityand climate at Deloitte Canada.
Please enjoy this episode of Full Circle.
(01:14):
It's great to be here with you today.
Cadmus, thank you for joining us.
And, here with my colleague Usha.Usha thank you for joining us.
Thank you,
AV.
Cadmus,can you elaborate on how understanding
and valuing our connectionto something larger than humanity
can help usmake better sustainability decisions
and think about the long termimpact of our actions?
(01:37):
Uh, thank you very much,
a good day,everybody. It's an honor to be here.
Cadmus Delorme, Cowessess First Nation andcoming to you from treaty four territory.
In southern Saskatchewan.
You know, todayI find it that individuals in our country,
Indigenous, non-Indigenous,everybody that calls themselves
a Canadian,you know, we all have drivers in life.
(01:58):
You know, some of us want to pursuea career that's higher.
You know, some of us go for, wealth,some of us just go for prosperity.
And the question is,what are we willing to give up
to get long term sustainable growth
when it comes to ESG, when
it comes to environment,when it comes to just us being stewards to
(02:19):
to the land and to our children yetunborn? Something Indigenous
like to really focus onis Seven Generations ahead.
Institutions and businessplay a role when it comes to just,
you know, our drives an economyand then individual's play a role.
And so, you know,everybody's duty of care is different.
I do see a lot of challenges,but I also see a lot of opportunities.
(02:42):
And it kind of it ends upbeing between our ears and how our kitchen
table kind of talked about itgrowing up as well.
It's interesting, Cadmus, when you talk,
about what we're going to give upfor the long term sustainability.
And I like
and maybeyou should share for our listeners your two,
(03:05):
Canoe analogybecause I think it's a beautiful one.
We're not talking about stopping progressper say, the giving up is slowing
something down or speeding something elseup so that we can be remain in balance.
But maybe we can expanda little bit on that for sure.
You know, I, I, teach leadership.
And one of the things I teachis about what reconciliation means.
(03:25):
So I'm going to teach the two canoesfrom a reconciliation perspective.
But if others want to kind of use itfor different,
other areas that, that they can adopt itto, please do so.
You know, in one canoe in our countryis Indigenous people. Inuit
First Nations and Métis. Who are rightsholders in this country, validated
with the Supreme Court of Canadaover 270 times.
(03:46):
So our three distinct indigenousgroups are Inuit, First Nations, and Métis.
So when I say Indigenous, I'm please,
I'm not trying to put us in a potthat we're all the same.
We're all distinct in this country.
The other canoe is Canada.
You know, Canada was in 1867, the BritishNorth American Act created a country.
And so those two canoes should be besideone another,
(04:07):
that that'swhat true reconciliation means.
But we inherited a history.
You know,nobody today created what we are now
learning were once residential schools,the Indian Act, the 60 Scoop
and every other policy or legislationthat impacted indigenous
people to not be the bestwe can be in this country.
So think of it like two canoes besideeach other, you know, one canoe.
(04:28):
Indigenous people just fell behinda little bit due to the Indian Act.
And now as Canadians
and Indigenous people,we just have to understand,
we need investmentin that indigenous canoe
so that we can catch up
and align each other as howwe were supposed to be at the beginning.
Once we get there, you'd be amazed atwhat our country can accomplish together
economically, socially,and strategically moving forward.
(04:53):
Thank you for sharingthat, and I couldn't agree with you more.
In terms of the potentialfor a great country
like Canada, but also the potentialfor humans to thrive.
And, on a more broader levelacross the globe.
You mentioned it earlier.
You know, thethe Seven Generation thinking,
can you share more insights on that topicand how we could potentially use
(05:17):
that thinking in the context of, you know,
sustainability?
I want to bring it from two perspectives.
And I'm Indigenous.
I'm, Cree.
I'm, Anishinabek or Saulteaux.
The first thing is, is the full cycleof of how we understand how life works.
You know, Earth provides water, you know,
(05:39):
through its cycles, through rainand everything like that.
The animalsthen will sometimes drink that,
well, they have to, drink the water.
You know, at times, as people,we're going to rely on animals
to keep us sustained,to keep us productive.
And then, you know, at some point,you know, it goes full cycle.
So everything is connectedis where I'm going with this.
(05:59):
You know, being taught that growing up,
that everything is a cycle,everything has a purpose.
And you must give itthat full respect in its role.
It plays in our inin your life, in society.
You know, a secondperspective is Indigenous.
You know, when we had our meetings,two, 200 years ago, my ancestors,
you know,we didn't have an elected official system.
(06:22):
Everybody just played a role.
The great grandparents played a role.
What they were major legislation,the Constitution.
And our grandparents were the,you know, the by the, the
the major legislations, kind of like your,your Bank Act of Canada.
And then you had your parentswho were the policies and bylaws,
and then you had the children
and the teenagerswho were just the helpers and in the room.
(06:43):
Why I say that in the cycleof how we're talking about environment
and sustainability is Indigenous,
everybody had a role.
It, just because you were a certaingeneration
didn't mean you played an important role.
Everybody had a roleand you earned your rankings
to that next role because of life,not because of your wealth, not
because of, you know, your success,but it's how you work together
(07:07):
in a collective, in a tribal system.
And so, you know, when,when many make decisions today,
we think, how is this decisiongoing to impact Seven Generations ahead?
And I'll give you one examplejust to conclude my comment here.
I grew up in southern Saskatchewanaround the Qu'Appelle Valley.
You know,I grew up swimming at Crooked Lake.
(07:29):
You know, my entire youth bringing.And I loved it.
There were just a lake with fish in it,and we had a lot of fun. Today,
You know,I take my kids to that same lake.
Do I let my kids swim in it? Certain daysI do, but you know, it
it that lake has changed.
Has it changed for the better? No.
You know upstream we are dependent.
(07:50):
And so, you know, that's the challenge ishow do you think Seven Generations ago
when we're starting to see the impactsof just one generation?
And so, you know, there are cyclesand I know there are non-Indigenous
teachings out there as well.And I don't want to disrespect them.
But what I shared with youis just a few ideas of how Indigenous
perspectivethink of Seven Generations ahead.
(08:10):
Yeah, I appreciate that, Cadmus.
I really like this concept of the cycle.
And as you're talking about,
you know, the water cycle,I think about when my kids come home
and tell methey learn about the water cycle,
they don't learn about the animalsdrinking it
and the passing through of othersand so on.
It's, you know, clouds, lake evaporation.
And so this idea that even something,that we take for granted as the
(08:32):
what's the water cycle,we are still missing a piece of it.
And, and then your connection to the role
each person plays within a communityreally also struck me
that there are defined roles,and you earn the next piece of it.
And I wonder when you reflect on today,
(08:53):
whether you think that we're confusedabout what our roles are,
what our connections are, or ifif we've just decided it wasn't important.
I find that
you know, that parent to to child is really important.
You know, I'll give you an example.
In the 1970s,when a child would get sent home
(09:16):
from schoolbecause of something that happened,
the principal would usually say,
listen, come back with your parentand let's sit down and talk about this.
So the parent will show up,the child will show up and the principal
and the teacher, they'll talk about it.
The parent will usually disciplinethe child right there and in the bad lead.
And they would get back to, you know,there was a good structure that way today.
(09:37):
If you were to do that,this is what would happen.
The child would get sent homewith a letter or an email.
The parent will show up to the school.
And this is like, really,
And like not everybody, but
the parent will start blaming the teacherin the education system
before they even startto find out what the situation was.
(09:58):
I help people today and talk with peopleabout their roles and duties
and leadership,
and how we're all leaders, andI think we can move a lot faster together.
I think that's a good place to startfor all of us.
And a good segue into,
the next, conversation topic.
When we consider the long termconsequences of our individual actions,
(10:20):
they play such a crucial rolein the context of climate solutions
and mitigating the long term consequences
of some of the decisions we makethat can impact climate change.
And I look at,
you know, some of the datawhich would sort of suggest
that that we can reduce,
(10:40):
emissions by 70% by 2050
by just changing our individual action,actions.
And, I think of,
renowned scientists, and authora Vaclav Smil.
He says that there's a low probability,if not,
impossibility of energizingthe world's economy
without fossil fuels by 2050.
(11:03):
And he says it with billions of peoplewho want to burn fossil fuel all the time.
And this is very littlethat we can do about.
So using your, like looking in the mirror
and what we can actually do,taking some responsibility,
you know,
the significance of addressingsome of these long term,
consequences.
(11:24):
How can we reshape our mindset
to navigate the tensionbetween this instant gratification,
the imperative to look forwardfor the Seven Generations, to make sure
that we've got a planetwhere humans can thrive on?
Look at, look at our kitchen tables.
Like I want to start at our kitchen tables
in this countryeverybody has a kitchen table.
(11:44):
At some pointyou were raised at a kitchen table.
If you're a new Canadian and this isyour you're the first generation here.
Your kitchen table prior to being herealso you know makes an impact
on how we make decisions today.
But I was raised by two babyboomer, generation.
I took pride in every little thing.
And you know, but growing upI grew up where,
(12:06):
you know, my mom and dad would throwthe odd KFC bag out the window
after we were done eatingand didn't think anything of it. You know.
And then finally, in my 20s, it took meto realize at how that was wrong.
Like, you shouldn't be throwing thingsout of your vehicle.
You can wait till the next gas stationand just put it in the garbage
when you fill up your tank.
(12:26):
I was a generational differencein just understanding what that meant.
Then I started toto make sure my parents did it as well.
I went back to my kitchen table.
I find today
that, you know, I'll say carbon tax.
You say carbon tax in a provinceand you know right away how political
your province is.
(12:46):
But I find sometimes between our earsand our kitchen table,
we kind of get too political todayright away about it
not seeing the big picture.
Also that well, at some pointwe gotta hand off
a world to the next generationand the generation after that.
So, but the adventure is, ishow do we hand off a Canada
(13:06):
to two generations aheadthat, you know, has a good
land, has goodwater, has a safe environment?
Canada plays a role.
But we're a small in this entire world.
Like, you know, when you know,when you start to study it, you know,
we're just actually a small impactin the big world itself.
Yeah.
I think about my kitchen tablegrowing up with
(13:28):
also in southern Saskatchewan,swimming in different lakes.
Yeah.
And, you
know, I was raised by two immigrants.
So, a different perspective altogetherwhere these types
of topics of sustainability,they're tied in economics,
you don't waste water,you turn off the lights,
you don't waste food that that it's it'sthe driver was really economic
(13:52):
for my parents who came from a placewhere you can't you can't afford to waste.
Right.
That this is, this is a luxury.
And in fact, and in this,
I had the same parents, by the way.
In southern Saskatchewan?
This is the southwest Saskatchewanstop at Australia.
Yeah.
And and so this idea that that and
(14:12):
the other piece in Cadmus,you talk about the different generations,
I also was lucky to grow upwith aunts and uncles nearby,
my grandparents nearby, visitinganother set of grandparents often.
And you feel this, at least for meas a kid the generations before, right?
Certainly.
And now if I look at my own kids,
my parents and in-laws are therethat they've got a little bit of buffer
on, on both sides of thinking,both in the past and looking forward.
(14:37):
And, it brings me to this complexityof identities.
And Cadmus,
you talked about the different rolesearly on and graduating into those.
But in some ways, you know, I am aI am a mother now, but I'm still a child,
and a grandchildand have have differing
roles that have different setsof responsibilities.
(14:57):
And I think about the complexity of thosein shaping our decisions,
of which which of those rolesam I making these decisions for?
When am I thinking about,
future generations?
Am I always thinking about future and pastof how do I navigate that?
And Cadmus, I'm curiousin your perspective of
as all the different rolesstart to come together,
(15:19):
how do you navigate toto our responsibilities, both from a,
you know, a dim's perspective in the nowand also the brights and in what's ahead?
I feel it comes down to truth
and just understandinghow our brains were wired.
And what I mean by that isevery one of us were taught differently.
(15:40):
You think of generations in this country.
Baby boomers were taught a certaincurriculum.
Generation X was at a certain curriculum.
GenerationY was taught a certain curriculum.
Today, the millennials, generation Z,and then the new Canadians
that are coming here.
Everybody is taught differentlyin our brains, and some of us are
pretty set in our ways, you know,and I meet all different perspectives.
(16:02):
And, you know,sometimes I disagree with them
and they disagree with me onhow to get there.
But we should all agree on the end goal.
And the end goal is simple.
We want a country that we can havea strong economics, a very safe country
where our kids can benefitfrom the beautiful lands.
And so, you know,how do we and we want equality, you know,
(16:23):
and how do we get there?
That's the challenge we're going to faceis how do we create
uncomfortable conversations where we don't
we can disagree with one another andand still focus on the end goal?
We're going to disagree onhow to get there.
The three of us will disagree on howto get there just in three conversations.
Then lastly,I find today it's tough to disagree.
(16:44):
You know, if you tell somebodyin this country you're conservative,
you know,if you tell someone you're liberal,
like that means something different today.
It's like
it's like you carry so much extra weighteven before the conversation starts.
Like 30 years ago, you'd say that
Then you go for a beer after our coffee,you know, like, I mean, let's this.
But today you can't do that in this.
Like sowe have to change between our years
(17:06):
and how we can disagreeand then how we can get there.
And we gotta highlightthe polarization that's happening.
It's not an easy goal right nowto have a conversation on how we disagree
on how to get there.
Which doesn't provide much of a foundationto solve
some pretty existential challengesthat we're talking about today.
And I couldn't agree with you more.
(17:27):
And it's just,you know, we've all got a role to play.
Pull that mirror outand have a look at ourselves to,
what are we doing to to reverse
some of those trends that youthat you're talking about. But.
You know, AV,this idea that you look in the mirror,
but we also need as a collectiveto hold both ourselves and organizations
(17:50):
and others around us accountableand and not just from a political sense,
but also from from a businesses, thethe people in our own families
that there does need to bethat shared, shared accountability.
And and I wonder, Cadmus,if you think about
that holding us our ourselves accountable
as that, as that collective,how would that shape the future?
(18:13):
What would that look like?
I'll break it into regions. We do haveand goals.
You know, in Saskatchewan,
you know, we want an end goal to make surethat we're economically stable,
that we have a fiscal relationship
with our with our governmentand everything of that nature.
But how do we keep each other accountablewhen it comes to the environment
side of things, is to understandthat we're an agriculture province,
(18:37):
that we're a potash provinceor an oil province.
And so how do we keep each otheraccount accountable?
I think we have to reeducate as well
and what it meansfrom a different perspective.
Sometimes we get tunnel vision and you seethe word mosaic or or nutrien somewhere.
It does make its impact.
But sometimes your duty of careis to your shared stakeholder.
(18:58):
And how do we make sure our duty of careis to Seven Generations ahead as well?
And we're trying.
But I find we have to reeducate ourselvessometimes,
like we have to understand whatwhat is the big impact, our duty of care.
We got to make sure that our duty of careis not just to,
you know, the best dollar and so forth,but other means
That are maybe non-monetary,which is tough to discuss.
(19:22):
Well there, you say reeducateand it's interesting dialog to,
and debate that's happened
over the last 50 yearsthat arrived at a position where show
shareholder supremacy should be the firstand foremost. I think you're talking
broadly there, Cadmus, aroundthis concept of stakeholder supremacy.
(19:44):
Which, you know, I would sayis, is probably losing that battle.
At present.
But it's certainlywhen you think about stakeholder,
you can think about, you know, the,your employees, you can think about
your community,you can think about the planet,
and environment around us, orand where you're taking us.
(20:04):
I think Cadmus was Seven Generationsinto the future.
It's complicated, but that doesn't meanwe shouldn't be heading
towards that, that way.
In that debate of shareholdersupremacy to stakeholder supremacy,
are we asking the right questionor can we simplify it even more?
Have you got any thoughts on that?
You know,I think ESG has really given us a lot
(20:26):
of focus, environment, social,
governance.
A lot of the,
market now is measured on ESG.
You know, that's that's something 20 yearsago you wouldn't really measure it on.
But now today it's it's normal,you know, it's normal.
And in on internal audits to, to externalanybody buying stock. If it,
(20:48):
if it's a public traded company,if it's a private company
ESG is still a part of it.
And Indigenous now is startingto become a part of that as well.
You know,what role does reconciliation Indigenous.
So I find asking the right questions.
It comes with at the end.
Is your profit or shareholderrelationship impacted?
(21:10):
That is probably a really bigis the right question being asked.
You know,in the last 10 years, have we shifted?
I wouldn't say we really
shifted and pivotedas much as we probably could.
But at the same time,we have to understand that
everybody is reelected or kept in the CEO
(21:30):
based on how much profit and sharesthey can increase.
So, you know, many great leadersprobably want a strong environment,
but at the same time,
what are they willing to give upbecause the pie doesn't get bigger,
in order to get that.
And sometimes to keep your job,you have to
prove it through wealth and through budget
(21:51):
and through deficit reduction.
So that's the challenge I find is,is the right question being asked?
Yeah.
Feels like the the wayin which we measure that success
doesn't match up to what we wantthat organization to be there for.
You know, a bankis there for for the people to use, right?
(22:12):
Yes. It gets very complex.
I don't want to understate that,but it's there for for investment.
And yet we will measure its success onstock price and, and CEO value.
I'm going to transition,
a little bit,
when we talk about,we talked a lot about Canada.
There are other countries around the worldthat,
(22:33):
that we believe,have a better relationship
or with, with, with the, with the earth,if you will.
And then in the context of the SevenGenerations that we've spoken about,
I don't know if, you got any countriesin mind that you think,
are doing it better that we couldperhaps be inspired by?
(22:54):
Well, I'm not sure about better,
Maybe just differentand definitely inspirational.
And I spend a lot of my timelooking elsewhere and
and looking for interesting storiesand examples of, of
what could we do that's different,and applicable in our context?
And I came across, a story from Denmark
where there is an island called Samsø,and I hope I'm pronouncing that properly.
(23:19):
But this island decided to be completelysustained by renewable energy.
So there was, a pipeline that wentfrom the mainland to the island fuel,
from fossil that was providing fossilfuels to run life on, on the island.
And they independently decidedthat they didn't
they didn't want to be dependenton fossil fuels.
So what if they werejust dependent on on renewables?
(23:42):
And so the community,the local municipalities,
the municipal government,and all of the businesses got together.
And I'm completely oversimplifyingthe effort it takes in the both
in the collaboration,the communication, the negotiation.
Right?
There are winners and losersin this as well.
(24:02):
It sounds like a beautiful storyof energy transition, but
there are certainly ups and downsin this process.
But collectively,they decided that their outcome was
to be, completely carbon free.
And they're trying to get there
completely by, by 2030 and not useany fossil fuels, on the island.
(24:22):
But the most significant part ofthat was being,
dependent on what could they generateon the island itself?
And so I think about that,and it's very easy to say, oh, well,
let's first of all, it's Denmark.
And then so different, different country,different, political situation and so on.
So, that would never happen elsewhere.
And second, it's an island and it's smalland there's fewer people.
(24:45):
Like it's very easy to rationalizewhy we can't do that.
But for me, it's quiteinspiring that a group of people
with different,
different
drivers and, and different,
benefiting in different ways,have collectively agreed
to make both sacrifices and benefitfrom, from, from this transition.
(25:09):
And, and
so, you know, I think, well,could that work?
What does that look likein a Canadian context?
What could we do that's similar?
Not in taking a piece of landand making it,
carbon free necessarily.
But rather,how do you take that same, same vision
of, of collectivescoming together for, for collective good?
(25:33):
Yeah.
And I think that's the beauty of the storyis not the transition
to green necessarily,but the communities come together
and they'vethey've had some give and take.
I think that's where you started as Cadmusto sort of say who's
who's going to give nowto sort of provide later.
Um, um, for me
That's what really resonates.
(25:54):
That's the secretsauce if we can get that.
Foundationally,I think we are all ready to transition.
It'll never be 100%.
That's one thingI've learned to this date.
And pleaseI will pivot again when I learn more.
But you know in in central in Canada,in Saskatchewan, you know, we will
always rely on a little bit of,you know, just, you know,
(26:16):
some of our current,but we can transition a lot.
And I've learned during my timewhen I was Chief, we,
we did a ten megawatt solar field.
We did a 36 turbine, a 200 megawattturbine.
And, you know, we had to collaboratewith the local landowners.
It wasn't just a First Nation thing.
It was local landownersand no one ever opposed it.
(26:37):
You know, many had questions.Is it too loud?
Is it going to,you know, affect the bird cycle?
You know,what about the bats and so forth.
And we did all of our due diligenceand even above it, like we brought in
elders, Indigenous elders to come inand kind of just do that as well.
I was on top of the duty to consult that.
We had to do so, you know,all we sell back to the grid as well.
(26:57):
So it's not just for Cowessess, people, it'sto help the Saskatchewan power grid.
So, I do see that transition happening.
It just takes, you know, really goodunderstanding to the economics of it.
That's why we're doing it.
You know, we're doing it not justfor the environment but as a Chief.
You know, we did it
and got approval from houses membersbecause it also economically benefits us.
(27:20):
And so it's it's it's in all areasthat it's
environmentallyshould be normal to us now to do this.
But economicallythere is a benefit as well.
That's a great example.
Two great examples there of of you know,
where Canada can start for inspiration.
And I do believe that we, we will get
(27:40):
this transition right, particularlytaking a Seven Generation mindset.
You know, I, I'm glass half full, Cadmus.
So, I believe that people like you said,
those nine and 10 peoplereally want to get things done.
We just got to have the right leadershipto be able to do that.
But I think in the context of whatthis topic today,
(28:02):
sustainable future, is morethan just energy transition as well.
It's like we touched on inclusion andnot leaving folk behind on this journey.
And I, thinkeven the way you describe in the,
you know, the the roles that everyoneplayed in the terms of decision making,
from the grandparents to the parentsto the to the children, if you will.
(28:23):
That was to me,
that's all about inclusion as welland making sure that everyone's on the,
you know, equally informed broadalong on the journey, much like
you would have had to do, Cadmusfor the that energy,
investments that you're making on behalfof your First Nation as well.
Like, I think that's animportant takeaway, as well.
(28:44):
In the context of,
energy transition, and moving fastertowards,
a lower clean carbon future.
Is there any other insightsthat we should share with the audience?
Either from yourself, Cadmus,
Or Usha? Beyond the economic, I think.
Is there any other, thingsthat we should be thinking about?
(29:07):
Well, I'm going to answer your questionwith a question,
which is one of the things that I grapplewith is,
[pause], and even in the, the,
faculty with codethat you gave one of his arguments
is that history doesn't showthat this is possible.
And where I get confused
(29:29):
is, well, history doesn't really show thatany of what we have today is possible.
If we looked only to history,we wouldn't be here.
And and yet we we get stuck in
trying to,
have a clear path to how
and what exactlyit will look like before we move forward.
(29:49):
And so we get really easilywrap ourselves in this inertia,
and an unwillingness to give time the,
the just the change to,to let it flow and…
The opportunity to get to it.
Yeah, exactly.
And so,you know, my question to that as well.
What, what, what shifts forfor us to get out of that inertia
(30:11):
to believe in the future,not knowing what that's like.
And rather than being so,deferential to, to our history?
I wish you were in the room with mehere, Cadmus,
And maybe she could have looked at youto ask that, difficult question, but I,
you know, on reflection,I just had the opportunity
to spend some time at,one of the local universities,
(30:35):
and we were talking aroundthis concept of bricolage,
which is putting togetherthings that are in existence today,
but combining them in different waysfor different sort of outcomes.
So when you're sort of talk talking about,yeah,
it is true, we don't know howall this is going to play out.
But there is an argument to sort ofsay we already got the component parts,
and we've listedsome terrific examples today
(30:57):
to sort of solve some of these, problems.
We don't know actuallyhow it's all going to come together,
but I would bet we've got some ofthe component parts to be able to do that.
But I think your patience topic,
maybe that was somethingwe were touching on earlier about
We're all been programedto have this instant gratification,
these sort of solutionsare not going to be instant.
(31:17):
They're going to be long term commitments.
There's going to be a lot of mistakesalong the way.
But in the context of what'swhere is coming back, to earlier,
when I said glass half full,I'm confident we'll pull them together.
We get good people together,well led in a direction being included.
We can pull it together,and to solve some of these.
I was able to go to Inuvik in 2018.
(31:41):
That's right. In the Arctic Circlein the Northwest Territories.
And I'm a southern Saskatchewan person.
And so that was my first big eye openerfor climate change.
When I was able to go and meetsome of the local Indigenous,
and they started to share with us, likethere was a delegate of delegates of us
about how we even, as deep as how that
(32:03):
that the world has shifted a little bit.
And I was sitting with this grandmother,this kokum,
as we say, in the Indigenous language,
and she was telling me aboutand she was a little girl to how,
you know, even up in Inuvik,how it's changed.
And I tell you, I came homewith a different perspective, you know.
And so why I started off with thatis it's about our attitude
(32:24):
and understanding the roles we play.
And I find, you know how todaywe have a Truth and Reconciliation
Commission and 94 calls to actionwhen it comes to reconciliation? In there
it defines the role
institutions play, the role individualsplay, the role governments play.
We have to start to look at climate changelike that as well.
Interesting.
(32:45):
I think we don't have a strategic plan.
And that's why as Canadians, we're like
all in different perspectives of it.
We lean too muchon our political bodies to do it
and be real, we can't just provide ourour institutions.
I think it's Canadians.
This is so important to us.
That is probably our best approachfor us to give us a good guideline
(33:09):
in each role we play, from kitchen tables
to institutions to governmentand to just everybody else.
It's such a fascinating idea.
And the the topic where we started withis pointing to everybody else to do this,
some something.
And this idea of a commission,of bringing together
all of the interestedand affected parties, which is everyone,
(33:31):
right, from grassroots organizations,individuals, all, all the way through,
to build a planand then focus on on the plan.
I love it.
I'm, I'm going to start this afterI leave this room.
Probably I'll be answeringthe next question as well.
You know,what should we start with tomorrow?
(33:51):
It sounds like a commissionmight be a good place to start.
To do that.One thing Usha, you've shared with me
before, and you have enlightened me, is,
in a lot of my language
I've been talking about saving the planet,and, in turning it around to sort of say
It's about humans saving themselves,because the planet's
(34:14):
going to be herea lot longer than we are as humans.
The way we're going, anyway.
That's that's another
that's another thing that I thinkabout in terms of what do we start to do
Tomorrow? Is just to sort of think aboutwho we're actually saving here.
I think starts with, again,looking in the mirror.
We're saving ourselvesin these next Seven Generations.
(34:36):
I'm not sure if youif you knew you had that impact on me
with that saying, but,are we using that going forward
That's for sure.
You know, one of the things I,
I study leadership and I study leadership
from centuries ago to today,you know, as as humans,
we are challenged, you know, everyone of us have a problem in our life.
(35:00):
It's some of us.
It's personal, some of with our family,some of us, it's just our community.
It's it'sSomething. We all have challenges
And as humans today,we got to be tough about it.
You don't share it too much.So we all kind of have this sphere.
I'm not getting too, too personal on us,but I'm going to lead to I find a society
we tend to
(35:20):
it's hard for us to get along.
And in moments like this,you think about 200 years ago
and what was happening, if it was wars inand different country, we kind of our
our own worst enemiesthrough our whole existence.
And this is our moment now,like our moment right now in this world is
do we want to keep our worldas best as we can?
(35:42):
I think this is going to be our biggest
human society challenge in moving forward.
And the other one is inequality.
And they work hand in hand.
You know, the the have nots,the ones that are just challenged.
I don't mean in a bad way.
I think climate change is going to impactthem in a very negative way, like water
in the next generation
(36:04):
is going to be like, go pretty soon,
like it is going to start to be like inlike that's really we're getting there.
And if you have the profit and the kitchen
table dollars to buy good water,you're good for another generation.
But the ones that don't have it,
that's going to be a huge taxon governments to try help subsidize.
(36:24):
So, we're getting there.
I can see the patternsand I sure hope that we understand
the rolewe play today to try and balance, Well,
I think that humans are both amazingand a little bit scary,
and yet we have the capacityto do something different,
to act in a way that take care that takewhere we're taking care of each other.
(36:48):
And connecting to something much bigger.
To your point,the Earth is going to be here.
The Earth will figure it out.
It's just whether humans can be hereon that Earth or not.
And and so I,
you know, if our, our decision is we wantto be around for as long as possible
before we become extinct,something needs to to shift, right?
(37:10):
And not just a select group of humans.
You know, I if I can start to givesome optimistic ideas
and just realistic to to what we do iswhat is the situation that we're in.
You know, to look aroundand is there anything that we can take
out of our current lifethat would help Seven Generations ahead?
You know, I, I have way too muchpaper bags that I put in a recycling bin.
(37:34):
But, you know,you're always going to have year ones
that are going to find everything wrongand it's around what you're doing.
But at the end of the day, you know,we just need to do the little things.
It's one day at a time, you know,sometimes taking on the big, big decisions.
Yeah, you lead up to them.
But it's just likeinvesting in your money.
Think of it like that.With the environment.
It's it's it's not monetary.
(37:55):
Just one day at a time.
You're just going to gain
a little interest one day at a time,and you're going to be wealthy
when you get old.
Accept it may not be money, it'sjust for your personal contribution
to making our worldready for Seven Generations ahead.
Well, that might be, a great wayto end it.
One day at a time.
Little steps.
Start with yourself.
(38:18):
Rely on, you know,
the goodness in, in humanityto just see a way through this.
But, it's been a wonderful conversation.
And, thank you,Cadmus and Usha, for joining us.
Thank you both. I really enjoyed it.
And to the listeners,thanks for the opportunity to share.
(38:40):
What’d you learn today
Usha?
Well, this concept of the kitchen tablereally resonated with me.
This idea that you've got multiplegenerations and real conversation.
If I think about my own kitchen table,
growing up, it was argumentsand discussion and and discussion to learn
and to to just hear and evaluatea different viewpoint.
(39:03):
And the point Cadmus makesabout how difficult it is
to disagree really resonated that wewe can't have those conversations.
And if you think about the solutionsthat we're talking about or this future
that we're looking to be able to get there
without fulsome conversationand and appreciation
for all the different perspectivesfeels a pretty tricky path to walk.
(39:28):
Yeah, I like I like to the kitchen table
and and you spoke a little bitabout your own circumstances.
You got some visibility for the,the generations, the before you.
So, if anything, like my family,
when you get a couple of generationsat the table, we never agree on anything.
But you do learn how to disagreewith each other.
(39:48):
You do learn to respect each other. And,
you know,
you'reconstantly in that state of discussion.
If you will, trying to inventyou're not surround yourselves with,
people that think exactly the same wayas you and reinforcing,
you know, some of your, your perspectivesrather than challenging
some of your perspectives and,and growing as a result.
(40:10):
So, I think that's that wasan important takeaway for me when we're
talking about sustainable future,
a future is going to have disagreement.
And how do you develop the tools?
And I think Cadmus gave us some, some foodfor thought
around the importance of the kitchen tableto be able to do that.
(40:30):
I thought also as an immigrant,
little son of, of immigrants, if you will.
I got to see firsthand of the
the toil that immigrantsgo through as well.
I worry about the next generation,my children,
and even more so, my children'schildren are not going to see that.
(40:52):
That and the compromise.
And, you know, the sacrifice,
because we talk a little bitabout the sacrifice as well.
Like, you know, I knowwe use in this country paying it forward.
The generation before me,it was paying it forward.
And, unlike the hopethat I'm doing the right thing
by returning on that investment.
But then being able to turn it around forfor my children,
(41:15):
their children, to be able to pay itforward for them as well was, another,
another thing that sort of resonatedwhen I heard the conversation today.
And to me, that connects to the piecehe was talking about, of the cycle
of understanding the connectionright of the it rains and falls
in the lake and animals drink itand so on that, that
where where current generationmay not feel the same toil,
(41:37):
the physical toil that that generationspreviously have,
where they can make a different connectionto something much broader,
feels that there's
hope in that way of the appreciation,the same appreciation
you get from the,you know, hard work, physical, hard work.
You can also get byby seeing this in action,
(41:59):
through througha completely different cycle.
That's not just about humans. I love.
I love that, because the wayyou described it to and what
we spoke about,it was a very scientific thing.
Water evaporation, cloudrain, water evaporation, go around.
That's one way you can look at it.
But the way, Cadmus sort of relate
Well, that water doesa whole bunch of other things,
(42:22):
and they're the stakeholders in my mind.
So, you just, you know, worriedabout preserving that cycle of water
or you worried about the cycle of lifethat comes from that water.
And, that's something I'll take with megoing forward, too.
Yeah.
That's such an interesting, connectionthere.
That and both are true.
The scientific cycle is true,as is the natural cycle of of of how it,
(42:47):
how it functions in practice.
Right?
And you, you will need both,and depending on where you are,
what your perspective is,you will see one, one more than the other.
The other thing that, Cadmus talkedabout a lot is looking in the mirror.
And that's, that's athat's a terrific takeaway.
I think we've got to do morelooking in the mirror,
(43:09):
and looking to ourselves to be part of thesolution, rather than looking at others
or relying on others to rectify the wrongsthat we have as individuals.
That was that was a powerful takeaway.
It's simple, but it's a powerful takeaway.
One thing that our listeners
should take away?
(43:31):
Can I give you two things?
Yeah. You most definitely can.
Do something,
Would would be.
One is don't get stuck in the inertia,but but do something.
Take some action.
And and the second thingis listen to a different viewpoint.
Just listen.
(43:51):
You don't have to agree, but
try try thinking about what
a different perspective might look likeand and see where that takes you.
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Listening.
It could solve a lot of issues. I'm sure.
Thank you again. Thank you.
You've been listening to Full Circle
with Anthony Viel and original podcastfrom Deloitte Canada.
(44:13):
Rate and review this series on ApplePodcasts, and if you haven't already,
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