A Double Life

In this episode of Girl Un Drunk, Heather and Zoe explore what it really feels like to be stuck in the cycle—the exhaustion, the shame, and the sense of being trapped. They talk about waking up sick, lying to loved ones, and planning the day around their next drink. They start digging into the tougher parts of their journey, the difficult moments that challenged their sense of identity and pushed them to seek sobriety.

Mentioned in This Episode:

• Mae Martin

• Olivia Rodrigo

• Velvet Underground

• Michelle Trachtenberg

• Buffy the Vampire Slayer

• Gossip Girl

• Michelle Trachtenberg’s Instagram

• Blake Lively’s Instagram

• CAMH: Center for Addiction and Mental Health

• LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario)

 

If you're in Canada and facing long waitlists for support, you're not alone. Resources like Alcoholics Anonymous Canada, SMART Recovery, Talk Suicide Canada, and Sober & Social offer guidance and community while you wait.

Listen, rate, and subscribe to Girl, Undrunk 🎙️✨ Episodes drop weekly on Wednesday. Proud of you!

Production by Ariane Michaud at Consciously Produced LLC, artwork by Martin Nuñez-Bonilla, sound set-up by Ian Sit, music/final edits by Daniel James, and transcript by Chelsea Neilan. 

Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.
Welcome to Girl Un Drunk.
I'm Heather, your host, and thisepisode is a little different.
It's not about the success story, the Igot sober and now everything is perfect.
This is about what it actually felt liketo be in it, to be addicted, to wake up

(00:25):
with the nausea and weight of withdrawal.
To lie, to plan your wholeday around drinking, just to
feel stuck in your own cycle.
These stories aren't glamorous,they aren't pretty, but telling
them makes them real and beingreal about them makes them human.
If you're struggling, ifyou're in recovery, or if you
just need to be reminded thatyou're not alone, we're here.

(00:47):
We get it, and we hope this episodehelps you feel a little more seen.
Now, let's get into it.
You're listening to Girl On Drunk,

(01:10):
drunk.
Hi everyone.
Welcome to Girl Un Drunk.
I'm your host Heather.

Zoe (01:18):
And I'm Zoey.

Heather (01:19):
And this is episode four.

Zoe (01:20):
Wow.

Heather (01:21):
Okay.
We went to see Mae Martin last nightand uh, I'm wearing Mae Martin's merch.
Of course.

Zoe (01:27):
Of course.

Heather (01:27):
It was great.

Zoe (01:28):
Yeah.

Heather (01:29):
I loved it.
Mae, if you don't know, Mae.
Stop this podcast and then go watcheverything Mae's ever done and then
come back and then we'll understand.
Mae's a comedian, but now releasedan album and sang and play guitar.
Had a band.

Zoe (01:43):
I loved watching them just take their little breaks

Heather (01:46):
I know

Zoe (01:46):
between the songs and mess around and chitchat.

Heather (01:49):
And make mistakes.

Zoe (01:50):
And make mistakes and would call it out.
They were like, oh, I fucked up.
Let's start again.
Heather decided not to wear pants lastnight, and she texted me a photo for
outfit and she said, is this okay?

Heather (02:00):
It also wasn't super venue appropriate, like I feel
like the gays that were therewere like jeans and flannels.

Zoe (02:07):
Yeah.

Heather (02:07):
And beanies.

Zoe (02:07):
There was no super femme gays there.

Heather (02:10):
No, and I, that surprised me.

Zoe (02:11):
The guitarist was probably the most super femme that was there because she had
like her shorts and her cowboy boots and,

Heather (02:17):
and her long beautiful hair, long, beautiful hair, cool
vibe, and her ability to play guitar.
That really just made me wet.

Zoe (02:22):
She was whipping her hair up and down and it was so hot to me.

Heather (02:26):
Yeah.
That was also my first sober concert.

Zoe (02:30):
Yeah.

Heather (02:30):
And that was really good.
We got there.
Oh yeah.
It was freezing.
We waited in line for too long.

Zoe (02:35):
We waited in line for five minutes.
It's just because she didn't havepants on that it was too long for her.

Heather (02:39):
It's cold.

Zoe (02:39):
If she wore pants, she would've been okay.

Heather (02:42):
Yeah.
And I should have worn pants.

Zoe (02:44):
No, I'm glad that you didn't.

Heather (02:45):
When I went to the bathroom by myself during the concert, I was like,
like I wanted to put my coat back on.
Like I felt like stupid.
'cause everyone elsewas like in a sweater.

Zoe (02:53):
But did you kind of feel like empowered after that?
You did that with like, oh my God,I look so fucking cute right now.
I don't have any pants on.
And I just went to thebathroom without my coat.

Heather (03:01):
Like kind of, but I also was worried that like when I was walking
back in, that people were gonna be like.
Does she think this is likean Olivia Rodrigo concert?
And I'm like, no.
I'm trying to get Mae to see me marry me.

Zoe (03:11):
Yeah.

Heather (03:11):
And live with me for the rest of my life.

Zoe (03:13):
It was all the flannel gays that were there.

Heather (03:15):
Yeah.
And I was surprised because I feellike Mae, well, I guess you don't
just go to concerts if you think thatthat person will have sex with you.
People go to concerts for music.

Zoe (03:23):
Yeah.
You clearly went just because you thoughtMae was gonna fall in love with you.

Heather (03:27):
Clearly.
Clearly.
That's why I went.

Zoe (03:28):
But, you know, that was just like the first time that you've seen them.

Heather (03:33):
I just felt like I was blushing.

Zoe (03:36):
I remember my first concert I went to sober.
Probably three, four months in,it was at the Velvet Underground.
It was really small.
It was all my friends and they were alltaking shots of tequila, and I remember
I didn't know what to do with myself.
But I just had my drink at that time.

(03:56):
It was very important to me tohave a drink on me at all times.

Heather (03:59):
Yeah.

Zoe (04:00):
So I was standing there grasping my drink and watching the singer, and
I was so newly sober, so kind of likeawkward, didn't know how to dance.
But after maybe half an hour, Ifelt more loose and proud of myself
for even like making it 30 minutes.
I just kind of loosened up.

Heather (04:17):
Yeah.

Zoe (04:17):
But it's crazy how in the early days I was so grasping onto the sober
drink I had in my hand and now when I goout, I don't really even think about it.

Heather (04:27):
I'm still like that.
I'm like, put something in my hand.
Someone get me a ginger ale.

Zoe (04:31):
Yeah.
Think I just
-Heather: ginger ale stat
ginger ale stat.
Did we say that I tricked you last night?

Heather (04:36):
That was so funny.

Zoe (04:37):
I was, I don't know why.
I didn't wanna bring my bag in at first'cause I was like, is this obnoxious
that I bring my big bag into thisconcert and I took out my IDs to put
in my pocket and Heather was like, whyaren't you bringing your bag in now?
And I said, well, "I have drugs.
"Heather: And I was like, "you have drugs?"
Like Heather fully believed me that I had drugs, and she was

(05:00):
like, "what drugs are we taking?"

Heather (05:01):
I was like, 'cause it was weird.
We were in my car and at thatmoment I was like, do we do drugs?
Because like Zoe is like sober.
Sober.
Like I, I talk about sometimeslike maybe doing mushrooms in the
future at a cottage with the girls.
I don't know.
But I was like, are we about to do Molly?

Zoe (05:17):
I was proud that I tricked you that hard.
She's gullible.
No, just like me.
Oh God.
If someone said that to me,I would've been like, oh.
Okay.
That was really funny.
All in all, great night.

Heather (05:27):
All in all, great night.
Let's do a little mental health check-in.
How you doing?

Zoe (05:35):
I'm doing good.
I actually had a drinkingdream last night.

Heather (05:40):
Tell me about it.

Zoe (05:42):
A lot of my drinking dreams revolve around me having to apologize
to my parents, which is interesting.

Heather (05:48):
Oh.

Zoe (05:49):
Um, but I was drinking and there was a vehicle there, so I think I was driving.

Heather (05:54):
Oops.

Zoe (05:55):
It was horrible.
But I remember having to apologize to myparents in the dream about my drinking.
But then I still knew, I wasstill hiding the fact that I
was gonna continue drinking.

Heather (06:05):
Yeah.

Zoe (06:06):
So the stress about having to hide it, but apologize at the same
time, that's interesting 'cause that'sliterally what life used to be like.

Heather (06:17):
Yeah.

Zoe (06:18):
That cycle of apologizing and then try to hide it again.
And

Heather (06:22):
God, those so are so embarrassing when you're like, I'm sorry,
but like that really means nothing.

Zoe (06:27):
Yeah.

Heather (06:27):
I am sorry that you're affected.

Zoe (06:29):
Yeah.

Heather (06:29):
But this isn't gonna go anywhere.

Zoe (06:31):
It's not gonna change.

Heather (06:34):
Has, is that the first drinking dream you've had in a while?

Zoe (06:37):
Probably in like a month or so.
I feel like I usually have adrinking dream maybe once a month.

Heather (06:41):
Okay.
That's good to know.

Zoe (06:42):
Yeah.

Heather (06:43):
Yeah.
Maybe it is once a month for me now.
In the beginning it was.
Whew.
Almost every day.
I think.

Zoe (06:48):
Well, in the beginning I used to have dreams I was murdering people.
I, I was murdering my mother in my dreams.

Heather (06:54):
Were you mad at your mom?

Zoe (06:57):
I must've been mad at like a lot of people at that time.

Heather (06:59):
Okay.

Zoe (06:59):
Just because I didn't know how to place feelings.

Heather (07:02):
Yeah.

Zoe (07:02):
So I guess angry would be the easiest feeling to be at my parents at that time
.Heather: Because they wanted you to go to rehab, so that makes sense.
My parents were not like that.
They were just like waiting for me.
To fucking figure it out.
Yeah.

Heather (07:17):
Or to get hit by a bus or something and end up in the hospital
for long enough where I was sober.
I'm not sure what theythought was gonna happen.

Zoe (07:23):
Did you ever think about that?

Heather (07:25):
Getting hit by a bus?

Zoe (07:25):
Yeah.

Heather (07:26):
No, because I wasn't really outside.

Zoe (07:28):
Yeah.

Heather (07:28):
I was inside.
If someone was gonna get hit by a bus,it would be the Uber Eats driver on his
little bicycle coming to my house at allhours of the day and night with my wine.

Zoe (07:38):
I'm surprised I didn't get hit by a bus.
I'm surprised I didn't get hitby a vehicle when I was biking.
I'm surprised I am still alive.

Heather (07:44):
Yeah.
Biking drunk is wild in the city.
I had a counselor in rehab.
I was telling him that I was havingdrinking dreams every night and
they were really bothering me.
They were freaking me out.
Like I thought I was drinking.
He was like, I mean this isn't supersciencey, but he was like, when you
sleep, your subconscious is there.
So like your brain is asleep, butyour subconscious is still active.

(08:07):
And that's the thing that doesn'tnecessarily know that you're sober.

Zoe (08:12):
Yeah.

Heather (08:12):
Or that you're trying to be.
I guess maybe if you stopdrinking, your subconscious is
like, why aren't we drinking?
Let's drink.
How's your mental health doing?

Zoe (08:21):
My mental health?
I feel like I'm good.
I don't know why I have adrinking dreams once in a while.
That's not based on anythingthat I'm feeling bad about.
I don't think.

Heather (08:31):
If I have a drinking dream, I'm like, that's my little shit addiction.
That's like trying to get creep backin, like stay over there in your lane.

Zoe (08:37):
Well, that's just my reminder that I am an alcoholic.

Heather (08:39):
Yeah.
But maybe my addiction feels me slipping.
Not slipping, but just like kind ofletting my guard down a little bit.
Like going to a concert.
Yeah.
And then it's like, hello.
Maybe you want a little liquid curry.

Zoe (08:49):
Liquid curry?

Heather (08:51):
That's not a good way to shorten liquid courage.

Zoe (08:53):
No, it wasn't good.
I don't like that.
But overall week's good.
I'm glad that we went tothat concert together.

Heather (08:58):
Me too.
My mental health is better this week.
I mean, there's a lot going on.

Zoe (09:02):
Yeah.
You're busy.

Heather (09:03):
I'm busy girl.
But I think I feel okay.
Nothing is like too, toooverwhelming right now.
We were talking about this last nightthat like talking about alcohol so
much is bothering me a little bit.
It is my two year, I thinkit's coming up to that point.
And I remember feeling likethis coming up to my one year.
Where I'm like, okay, sothings are better now.

(09:24):
Why am I sober?
And I think now it's like two years andyou're like, right, you love sobriety.
Why are you sober?
You know?
And then you have to like think aboutit and be like, right, because you're
just remind yourself, yeah, you're afucking demon when you drink Heather.
And you'll never stop drinking.
You'll be living under a bridge.

Zoe (09:39):
And that's why going to meetings is good too, because I have that weekly
reminder that I am a fuckup and allof these people that are sharing, I
relate to every single one of them.
And they're so down bad rightnow and I don't wanna be in that
position again 'cause I can soeasily be in that position again.

Heather (09:54):
Oh yeah.
I guess that is nice to see otherpeople going through the struggle.
Obviously that sucks, but it's like.
I was there.

Zoe (09:59):
Yeah.
And I can easily be there in a day.

Heather (10:02):
Oh yeah.
So let's get into some sober news.
Shall we?

Zoe (10:10):
Love that.

Heather (10:10):
Now this is a little bit sad.
This was in the news this week,actress Michelle Trachtenberg,
best known for Buffy.
She was on Gossip Girl.
She was found in herhome, 39 years old, dead.

Zoe (10:25):
I feel like all of our sober news stories are sad.
It's all about-

Heather (10:28):
I know.

Zoe (10:29):
Um, and maybe alcoholic dying.
A maybe drug addict dying.

Heather (10:32):
Okay.
So what's interesting about thestory is that it's very vague.
But Michelle had gone through a livertransplant and that's pretty confirmed.
But it doesn't say when.
It doesn't say why we can surmise thenumber one reason that article said to
have a liver transplant is alcoholism.
Yeah.
There's a doctor on TikTok, theliver doc, and she was talking about

(10:56):
Michelle's death and she was remindingpeople that when women consume
alcohol, they need to understandwhat that can do to their bodies.
We see men and, and, and yes, ofcourse men in the media are dying
all the time from overdose, butwomen- we're generally smaller.
We metabolize alcohol much slower.
Our hangovers are longer.
Alcohol just stays in our body, and sothe health risks are higher for women who

(11:20):
consume alcohol and if we're making anassumption on Michelle's life, what I do
know from this article, it says a sourceclose to Michelle told NBC New York that
Trachtenberg had previously struggled withalcohol use disorder or drinking too much.

Zoe (11:40):
Yeah.
So that doesn't say like ifshe was an alcoholic or what?

Heather (11:44):
No,

Zoe (11:44):
But she definitely drank.

Heather (11:46):
I would assume.
And, and yes, of course we can't saydefinitely for sure this is what happened.
But I feel like for me, reading thisarticle, the signs are all there.
And if this comes out, and that'snot true, obviously, I'm sorry,
but I think it speaks to a largerconversation around alcohol in Hollywood.
And Michelle is one of these peoplethat like, we were never gonna

(12:06):
see her again until she died.
Also, if you go through Michelle'sInstagram, which we both have,
it's a little off.

Zoe (12:13):
It is off.
If I scroll down a bunch of times,scroll, scroll, scroll to maybe 2010.
Michelle's Instagram Looks likeBlake Lively's 2010 Instagram.
Using filters.

Heather (12:24):
Looks like Getty images.

Zoe (12:25):
Using random hashtags on her captions

Heather (12:28):
And all throwback photos from like good times from like red carpet
appearances or events like that.

Zoe (12:33):
Her Instagram just looks outdated.

Heather (12:36):
Yeah.
Um, and that doesn't meannecessarily that you're an alcoholic.

Zoe (12:39):
No.

Heather (12:39):
But I do think it speaks to a little bit of what she was going through.
I mean, she did post a picture inJanuary and comments underneath
it were saying how bad she looked.
She had bags under her eyes.
She looked too thin,she looked malnourished.
Michelle then clapped back atthese commenters by saying, "This
is my face, not malnutrition, noproblems. Why do you have hate?" Of

(13:03):
course I put a little tone in that.
But to me it sounds defensive.

Zoe (13:07):
Yeah.
And just because she's being defensivedoesn't mean that she's an alcoholic.
But it's just questionable.
It is questionable.

Heather (13:14):
It is because I can put myself in her position and just go through my
alcohol history and what that lookedlike, and it looks similar to hers.
I mean, looking like shit.
Posting weird throwbacks not havingus involved in your life and you're
a a person in Hollywood, you thinkthat at least you'd have a PR someone
to put good photos on your Instagram.

(13:35):
It feels strange.

Zoe (13:36):
And yeah, you should be hanging out with friends.
You're 39 in New York.
Be posting about your friends andthe fact that you're not means that
maybe you're sitting in your house and

Heather (13:46):
Listen.
When I was drinking I wasn'tposting anything other than myself.
When I go back through my archive oflike stories from that time, it was
all just like videos and pictures ofme drinking and no friends were around.

Zoe (13:57):
Yeah.

Heather (13:57):
Like when my ex was around, he would be in them.
But when he left, it was like, just me.
That makes me feel like you're sittingin your home alone, like drinking
wine and reminiscing on the past.

Zoe (14:07):
Even if she wasn't an alcoholic, she could've just had a, a lot to drink in
her days and maybe that's why she did getthe over transplant because she drank.

Heather (14:15):
Yeah.
Um, as many like child stars do.
Everyone ignores it and then all ofa sudden it's like, oh, this one.
Yeah, this one didn't make it.
We watch it happen.

Zoe (14:25):
It's so strange and sad too, because there could be some support
and help to those people, but there'snot and it just gets slid under the rug

Heather (14:35):
And it really makes you feel like, and I, I mean, I have this thought
too, I'm like, wow, some people inHollywood can do it and some people can't.
That's also the way I think about alcohol.
Like some people can, people can't,

Zoe (14:43):
Some people can drink, some people can't.

Heather (14:45):
But that's not fair because it doesn't mean she's not a good actress.
Like it has nothing to do with herbeing able to kick it and stay.
It's like the way that Hollywoodworks and acting and all that stuff.

Zoe (14:57):
Moral of the story is that alcohol can kill you.

Heather (14:59):
Yeah.

Zoe (15:00):
No matter what.

Heather (15:01):
Yeah.
And there are a lot of stories ofpeople who do have liver transplants
or complications with alcoholand they don't stop drinking.
Right.
It happens all the time.
And you know, that's part of alcoholresilience in like risk resilience.
You're just.
It's addiction.
You cannot stop.
It, it's the thing that'sgonna make you feel better.
You can always excuse it, right?

Zoe (15:21):
Yeah.

Heather (15:22):
Even a surgery.
There's a way you can belike, well, yeah, it's fine.
One glass of wine is fine, and theneventually that turns into six and
you're like, well, now my liver's immune.
Right?

Zoe (15:31):
Yeah.
And now I'm doing it anyways.
So what's, why should I stop now?
I've already done it.

Heather (15:35):
Yeah.
Poor Michelle.

Zoe (15:37):
Yeah.
RIP.
But our livers are fine now, right?

Heather (15:40):
I think so.
I, I was told in my rehab thatyes, you'll level back out.
Like, 'cause I didn't haveany severe damage to my liver.
Um, it was just like, help me.

Zoe (15:49):
But like, I feel like that is what I sounded like when I was a drunk.

Heather (15:54):
I know.
Hi, my.
Skin was like, please, please don't

Zoe (15:58):
Hydrate me.
Hydrate.

Heather (15:58):
Please drink one glass of water.
We're dying.

Zoe (16:01):
Remember being hungover and chugging water and then throwing it up.
Ugh, that's the worst.

Heather (16:06):
No, because I didn't do that.
I would drink wine when I was hungover.

Zoe (16:11):
Sometimes I would feel like just so sick.

Heather (16:13):
Coffee.

Zoe (16:14):
Really?
You didn't wake up and chug water?
I think I needed to.

Heather (16:18):
Mm. Because it wasn't gonna help my withdrawal.
What was gonna help was alcohol.
That's why I starteddrinking in the morning.

Zoe (16:24):
Yeah.

Heather (16:24):
I was probably like ordering McDonald's and getting like two
giant coffees and a hash brown.
I did that a lot.
Okay, so Zoe, todaywe're here to talk about.
Addiction and understanding addiction.

Zoe (16:41):
Okay, let's teach these people.

Heather (16:43):
Let's teach these kiddos.

Zoe (16:44):
Let's teach these kids up there too.

Heather (16:47):
Chapter one.
Everyone open your books,science books, open textbooks.
So I guess like talking aboutunderstanding addiction, obviously there's
so much we can go into the science of it.
Well, we can't.

Zoe (16:57):
We can't.
But we will have someone on two gointo the science of it, because I feel
like it could be really interesting.

Heather (17:02):
Well, and basically with the science, what I wanna convey is that.
Addiction is not just about willpower.
There is a chemical thinghappening in your brain.
Some people's receptors aredifferent and it really likes
alcohol and some people's don't.
It is a science thing.
I just don't really know howto explain it scientifically.
But I do know what wefeel like emotionally.

Zoe (17:24):
Yeah.

Heather (17:25):
So we've talked about when we started drinking and when it was
serious, but do you remember a momentor like a time where you were like,
oh shit, alcohol has control over me.
Or like, oh, I didn'treally have control of that.

Zoe (17:41):
It's weird because I think, as I said before, it was an immediate thing
for me that I felt that I was like, oh,I'm, I'm just gonna do this forever.
Like, this is it for me.

Heather (17:53):
But that feels like a control thing to say like,
I'm gonna do this forever.

Zoe (17:57):
Yeah.

Heather (17:58):
Was there a flip at some point?
I mean, of course therewas, but do you remember.

Zoe (18:02):
I mean, of course when there were starting to be repercussions because of
my drinking I thought to myself, wellshit, I'm gonna have to get better at
hiding this or shit, I'm gonna haveto apologize and do better next time.

Heather (18:16):
Yeah.

Zoe (18:17):
But there was never a point where I was like, I'm not
going to drink like that again.

Heather (18:21):
Right.
Like there wasn't a flip one day whereyou were like, oh, I'm an alcoholic.
Yesterday I could drink one glass of wineand today I have 10 and I'm not done.

Zoe (18:30):
No, because I think I always drank to the point of blocking out.

Heather (18:34):
Yeah.

Zoe (18:35):
Even when I first started.

Heather (18:36):
Okay.
Yeah.

Zoe (18:37):
I think when I maybe got to college, I recognized more that I was the only
one that was really drinking that much.

Heather (18:46):
Okay.

Zoe (18:46):
So people started calling me a drunk.
I said, yeah, obviously I'm a drunk.

Heather (18:53):
Yeah.
But it's like a fun thing,

Zoe (18:54):
But it's a fun thing and I liked being an alcoholic.
So I never thought it was a bad thinguntil I realized that I actually couldn't
stop and that my life was gettingworse and worse and worse and worse.

Heather (19:06):
Do you remember when you couldn't stop?

Zoe (19:08):
Throughout university I was trying to control my drinking and
I was trying to get therapists.
I went to CAMH.
I was trying to control it.

Heather (19:15):
In, in university you went to CAMH?

Zoe (19:17):
Yeah.

Heather (19:17):
Okay.

Zoe (19:18):
And I could never control it.
So I should have known at that pointthat I should have just stopped.
But I didn't want to stop.
Obviously.

Heather (19:27):
Well, you were already in it at that point.
Right.

Zoe (19:29):
I always just kind of knew that I couldn't control it.

Heather (19:32):
Yeah.
For me, I think it wasdefinitely in university.
I was excited about drinking, for sure.
But we were dancing so much that it neverfelt like A, it never felt like a problem.
It did feel like somethingthat was good for me.
'cause I was like, this is a relax.
. Then I remember I have a friend, Kacia.
Hey Kacia.
We would always drink togethermaybe every Friday or something, or

(19:52):
just like if we had a free night.
But if we both were not doing anything,we would call each other and be like,
okay, let's, let's get a bottle of wine.
Come over, we'll chat, whatever.

Zoe (20:00):
Yeah.

Heather (20:01):
That was like an exciting ritual for me.
And then I started drinking on my own.
I remember being in New York and lookingat a bottle of wine I had and being
like, oh, that's not enough for tonight.
Should I get another bottle of wine?
Yes, and I went and got one.
And I feel like that-

Zoe (20:19):
That was your moment where you were like, okay.

Heather (20:21):
Yeah, I think there were other ones, but I do remember looking in my
fridge in New York and seeing like onesweet green salad and one half bottle
of wine and being like, I need more.
For what?
For what?
It was already like eight o'clock.
I could've just gone to bed.

Zoe (20:34):
One of my friends broke up with me because of my drinking.

Heather (20:37):
Oh.

Zoe (20:38):
I guess that was like a pivotal point of me being like, oh, I'll, I
don't care if you break up with me.
Whatever.
Yeah.
Like I'm choosing alcohol.
Yeah.
She got me a therapist, actually.

Heather (20:48):
Whoa.

Zoe (20:49):
Yeah.

Heather (20:49):
That's a good friend.

Zoe (20:49):
Yeah.
And I would go to her, but again,I was lying to my therapist because
I didn't wanna be sober and she wastrying to moderate my drinking, but
obviously that doesn't help an alcoholic.
So I just kept failing herlittle tests that she would do.
So I stopped seeing her, and myfriend basically was like, you're

(21:10):
either going to choose drinking oryou're gonna choose to be my friend.

Heather (21:13):
Yeah.
I can't.

Zoe (21:14):
And I chose drinking.

Heather (21:15):
It's not a choice.
Sorry.
At that point, and like I know it hurts.
For friends who've been throughtheir family members where you're
like, they chose alcohol over meor drugs or whatever, I know it
hurts 'cause it feels like a choice.
It's not a choice.
Like I would've rather beendead than to not get my alcohol.

Zoe (21:31):
Yeah.

Heather (21:31):
If you're standing in the way of my alcohol, you're not my friend.

Zoe (21:34):
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
I thought that way.

Heather (21:36):
Yeah.

Zoe (21:36):
And I think after that happened, I didn't have to try
to be better for anybody else.
My other friends drank a lot, soI was fine and I kind of just got
a little bit worse after that.

Heather (21:47):
Yeah.
Are you guys friends now?

Zoe (21:50):
We're friends now, yeah.

Heather (21:50):
Okay.
You made up?

Zoe (21:51):
Yeah.

Heather (21:52):
Was that you?
Did you do that?

Zoe (21:54):
Yeah, I reached out to her a couple years ago when I got to my ninth step.
I did my amends to her and-

Heather (22:01):
How'd that go?

Zoe (22:02):
It was so scary.

Heather (22:04):
Yeah.

Zoe (22:04):
So scary.

Heather (22:05):
Did you call her?

Zoe (22:06):
I DM'd her.

Heather (22:07):
Okay.

Zoe (22:08):
Because I didn't have her number.

Heather (22:10):
Wow, this is amazing.

Zoe (22:13):
I wonder what my DM said, but I think it was something like, I'm sober.
I need to do my amends to you.
Would you rather me call youor can we meet up in person?

Heather (22:23):
What if she said no?

Zoe (22:25):
Then that's fine.
Then maybe I would send herlike a note of me apologizing.

Heather (22:29):
And then can you like if, 'cause you can't force someone to,
um, forgive you, and what if they'rejust like, I don't wanna speak to you.
Does that fuck up your amends?
Or you can just moveon to the next amends.

Zoe (22:38):
We can just move on.

Heather (22:39):
Okay.
That's interesting andBut she accepted it.

Zoe (22:42):
Yeah, we met up for ice cream.
Oh.
And it was like the most specialmoment ever because after I did
my amends, obviously I didn'tknow what was gonna happen.
We could have just like parted ways afterthat, but we just kept chatting for two
hours and now I'm going to her wedding.

Heather (22:59):
Oh God.
That's so nice.

Zoe (23:01):
Yeah.

Heather (23:01):
Okay.
Amends are great.

Zoe (23:03):
I mean, not all of them are great.

Heather (23:05):
No.

Zoe (23:05):
Some of them are gonna be harder than others, obviously.
But that one was amazing.
Just to see it work full circle like that.
Was something special.
For sure.

Heather (23:14):
Yeah.
That's great.
Speaking of apologies, I, as I gotolder, I was realizing like there were
some people in my life that I had hurt.
Um, like dance stuff.
When I was in 11th and 12thgrade, especially 12th grade, I
was the star of the dance studio.
That's just true.
That's how it is.
Look at me now.
But we had dancers that some ofthem had never danced before,

(23:39):
other than like, recreationally andbecause of like, the way the dance
was, we were like the age groups.
We were kind of like in a, in aweird, in-between year they had me
dancing with them and I was mean, Iwouldn't say anything, but I would
just, it was very aware that like,oh, please do not approach me.
Like, I understand that you are inthe room with me right now, but we are
on very different levels right now.

(24:00):
There was this guy named Tyler,he never had danced before.
Never.
I was just mean to him.
I would just be like, ugh.
All the time.

Zoe (24:06):
You like side eye him?

Heather (24:07):
Yes.
All the time.
I'd roll my eyes if he madea mistake or if I made a
mistake I would just blame him.
And anyway, all that to say is a fewyears ago before I got sober, I was
thinking about it and I messaged him andI was like, listen, that was fucked up.
What I did.
I didn't do anything crazy.
I didn't like, you know,put glass in his shoes.
Yeah.

Zoe (24:24):
Were you apologizing?
'cause you low-key thought he was cute?

Heather (24:27):
No.

Zoe (24:27):
Okay.

Heather (24:28):
I was apologizing because I felt bad.
That was a formative time in ourlife, and all he wanted to do was
enjoy dance and I was a fucking bitch.
Mind you, I will say I wasbeing bullied within an inch
of my fucking life at school.
And that's not an excuse,but it is a consequence.

Zoe (24:44):
So you were getting bullied and you were being the bullyer at the same time.

Heather (24:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like this has to do with addiction.
When I was in high school, I wasin ninth grade, and there was a
guy who now, in retrospect, I thinkhe probably had a crush on me.
Now you have to remember Icame from private school.
And it was a cult.
So I was very immature.
I had never kissed a boy.
I didn't know what dating was like,I hadn't held a hand, nothing.
So when I got to grade nine, people hadalready been sucking dicks in hot tubs.

(25:09):
Okay.
And I was a little mouse.
So what I assume happened ishe like liked me and I kind of
just like didn't respond to it.

Zoe (25:18):
Because you didn't know.

Heather (25:19):
I didn't know how could he possibly, I never understood.
Anyway, he started calling me mustache.
He would come up to me and justyell mustache at me, yell it.
He would come up to my locker withother guys and be like, "Hey, Heather,
what razor do you use? Because I'mreally thinking of growing a beard."

Zoe (25:34):
Why were boys so mean to girls?

Heather (25:36):
When I tell you that every single day, I'm shaking right
now talking, but that's my handsare like, yeah, I'm still mad.
I know that there are guys that arein my DM's right now who are like,
oh yeah, we went to high school.
Oh, I love your sober shit.
Yeah.
Either you said something mean to me-

Zoe (25:52):
or you saw it happen

Heather (25:53):
or you saw it happen and you didn't do anything.
To me, when I talk about that,I'm like, oh yeah, my addiction
started when I was in ninth grade.
Because I was brutally attacked at school.

Zoe (26:01):
Or it just started like when we were children and just always didn't
feel like we belonged anywhere.
You know?

Heather (26:08):
Did you, did you feel like that too?

Zoe (26:10):
I felt like that too.

Heather (26:11):
Really?

Zoe (26:11):
Yeah.

Heather (26:12):
Did you feel different than everybody else?

Zoe (26:14):
I felt different.
And awkward and weird.

Heather (26:16):
Yeah.

Zoe (26:17):
Yeah.
I never felt like I fit in anywhere,especially within my family.
I felt like I was always the odd one out.

Heather (26:22):
Yeah.

Zoe (26:22):
I was always the different, quirky, creative, weird one.

Heather (26:26):
Yeah.
I always felt like the black sheep always.
Yeah.
I was the bad one.
I was bad.
I was loud, I was annoying.
My family is all introvertsand I'm like somehow a maniac.

Zoe (26:36):
Same.

Heather (26:36):
Yeah.

Zoe (26:36):
Same.
I was the weird one, and then I was thebad one as soon as I started drinking.

Heather (26:40):
It's nice to have an identity.

Zoe (26:42):
People love a label.

Heather (26:43):
They do.
And now I think that's why I lovesobriety, because I'm like, I'm sober.
I'm a sober person.
It's just easier.
Okay, so during your addiction,what did drinking feel like to you?
Like when you remember puttinga glass to your lips like
what did drinking feel like?

Zoe (26:59):
I felt so safe.
When I was drinking, I felt likeI was myself and when I was not
drinking, I didn't feel like myself.

Heather (27:06):
Yeah, that's how I felt too.
You could look at thebottle in the fridge.
Why am I saying fridge so much?
You know, that I wasn'tputting anything in the fridge.
I was drinking warm wine,sitting out in the sun.
But I think being able tosee the alcohol and like-

Zoe (27:22):
Know that I had, it just made me happy.

Heather (27:23):
It's a safety.

Zoe (27:24):
Yeah.

Heather (27:25):
It is.
Knowing that I'm like, oh, okay.
Like I have to do something right now,but when I get home I'll be drinking.
Or even like after work, when I wouldgo down to the LCBO and get four cans of
wine and like shove 'em in my pockets.

Zoe (27:35):
Right.
And then walk with them.

Heather (27:36):
Yes.
I was like, I have asafety with me to get home.
I don't have to get home sober.
That would be insane.

Zoe (27:41):
Yeah.
Whenever I was sober during the day,I was always just like, oh, okay, a
couple more hours then I can drink that.
One more hour and I can drink that.
It was always somethingI was looking forward to.
If I wasn't already drunk, it's all Icould think about throughout the day.
It's all that I cared about.

Heather (27:57):
Yeah.
It didn't feel like gettingto have sex after a long time.
It felt kind of like being really cold andthen getting into a hot tub or something.
. It's like that immediate-

Zoe (28:07):
Yeah, I could actually breathe finally,

Heather (28:08):
and this is me.
This is me and I'm me and I'm in my home.
You know, and also the feeling of like,I need this substance now to do anything.

Zoe (28:17):
Yeah.
I definitely got that way.

Heather (28:20):
You know how like 80% of your body is water?
I feel like my body actuallyneeded 80% alcohol to survive.
That's what it felt like.

Zoe (28:26):
Yeah.
I always was thinking about itand I, it felt like my identity.

Heather (28:31):
Did it feel like shit?

Zoe (28:33):
Oh, I hated feeling like shit the next day.

Heather (28:36):
Okay, but the drinking didn't feel like shit.

Zoe (28:38):
No,

Heather (28:39):
I, I think I felt like shit when I was like drinking
warm wine in the morning.
Or there would like random days where I'dbe like, I don't really wanna drink today.
And my brain would be like, yes, you do.

Zoe (28:50):
There would be nights where I would obviously drink way too much and didn't
eat anything all that day, and thenthat next morning I obviously was puking
up my stomach acid and trying to drinkwater or Gatorade to feel okay again to
eat something to make my stomach feelbetter so that I could continue drinking.

Heather (29:11):
Oh yeah.
It was always about beingable to drink again.

Zoe (29:13):
But then sometimes I couldn't feel better, so I just drank immediately
at like noon or whatever, and then-

Heather (29:20):
You waited till noon?

Zoe (29:22):
Depended on the day.

Heather (29:23):
Okay.
I was like-

Zoe (29:24):
If I couldn't make myself feel better with like water and Gatorade
then I would be like, Hey, fuck it.
I guess I'm just gonna drink.

Heather (29:31):
Okay 'cause I was waking up at like 3:00 AM in withdrawal.
Like withdrawal.
And so I would drink 'cause therewas a bottle under my pillow at
all times 'cause I'm prepared and

Zoe (29:40):
See, I never really woke up with booze left over.
To be honest.

Heather (29:45):
Okay.
I would make sure that I did, Iwould order four bottles of wine,
so I'd have, I could only drinkthree before I'd fall asleep.

Zoe (29:51):
I see.
The problem was if I didthat, I would drink all four.

Heather (29:53):
Yeah.
Oh, I'm sure I did that.
There were definitely nights, but likemostly I was like, three bottles of
wine will throw me into a coma or justlike a deep sleep until 3:00 AM and then
I'm good to go and then at 8:00 AM Ihave to order more from the wine rack.

Zoe (30:08):
It's getting to be so long ago that I, it's kind of a blur now.

Heather (30:11):
Kind of nice,

Zoe (30:11):
You know, it's, it's kind of nice to be like, oh, thank
God that's not my life anymore.
It seems so exhausting.

Heather (30:17):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
Speaking of exhausting.
It was harming you.

Zoe (30:21):
Yeah.

Heather (30:21):
Why did you keep going back to it?

Zoe (30:24):
I didn't think I could stop.
There was no option.

Heather (30:27):
That's a pretty clear answer.
It's a pretty easy answer.
There's no choice.
Right.

Zoe (30:31):
Obviously I wanted to.

Heather (30:33):
Yeah.

Zoe (30:33):
But I didn't think I could do that.

Heather (30:36):
Didn't think I couldn't do that.

Zoe (30:38):
Yeah.

Heather (30:38):
That was not an option for me.
You know that thing.
Oh, just stop doing drugs andyour life will get better.

Zoe (30:44):
How?
I just didn't think I could stopbecause I thought that I did too much
harm, that I could never live sober.

Heather (30:49):
So you were like, this is just my trajectory now.

Zoe (30:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Heather (30:52):
Yeah, it's the thing that hurts you the most.
It's also the thing that helpsyou and it's the thing that you
love the most, and it is a weirdcodependent relationship with alcohol.

Zoe (31:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Heather (31:02):
Because it does hurt me.
It is toxic, and it's makingme look disgusting and feel
disgusting, but it also makesme feel the best I've ever felt.
It's hard to just stop doing that.

Zoe (31:13):
Yeah.
I would try to sober up to get everybodyto like me again, and then I would just.
Keep drinking again like

Heather (31:21):
And what was that?
Was that on your own or wasthat when you would go out or
what was the I'm drinking again.

Zoe (31:27):
Probably both, but getting everybody to like me again
would take me like a day or two.

Heather (31:32):
Oh, oh, okay.
We're not talking like a month.

Zoe (31:35):
No.
I think we know what it was.
It's when I'm mustered up the couragethe next day to get my phone and to
apologize or to go to my parents,be like, yo, I'm sorry about that.
Then I was like, okay, let'sthe fucking, let's do it again.

Heather (31:48):
The fucking apology tour every morning was so great.
That's why I loved, like at some point inmy addiction, I just didn't go outside.
Because I wasn't fuckinganyone else's life up.
I mean, just meant on Hinge but-

Zoe (31:58):
Yeah, there was definitely a point where I stopped doing as much
stuff as well because I couldn't,I couldn't make it anywhere.

Heather (32:05):
No.
Did you have physical effects of drinkingon your body or, or like inner feelings?

Zoe (32:13):
I definitely wanted to kill myself.

Heather (32:16):
Yeah.

Zoe (32:17):
From when I started drinking to when I finally sobered up, like throughout
all of that, I had suicidal thoughts.

Heather (32:24):
Oh really?

Zoe (32:25):
Yeah.

Heather (32:25):
Okay.
So your addiction is linked to depression?

Zoe (32:29):
A hundred percent.
And then as soon as I got drinking a lot,

Heather (32:34):
no longer,

Zoe (32:34):
that made me depressed because I was hurting everybody,

Heather (32:38):
But no longer awkward, weird, and shy.

Zoe (32:40):
Exactly.

Heather (32:40):
And that's the most important when you're growing up.

Zoe (32:42):
Yeah, that is, for me at least, I needed to be important and popular.
I really craved that for some reason.

Heather (32:50):
The physical effects of my drinking at the end
Zoey, I couldn't tie my shoes.
I couldn't put my hair in a ponytail.
I was having such bad withdrawal inthe morning that I couldn't breathe.
I was like gasping.
It was hurting in my sternum.

Zoe (33:05):
Yeah.
It hurt me 'cause I just kept throwingup so much of my stomach as well.

Heather (33:10):
Oh yeah.

Zoe (33:10):
There was a lot of that.
That was like, I think my biggestwithdrawal was like just throwing
up my stomach acid all the time.

Heather (33:16):
Were you throwing up in the shower?

Zoe (33:18):
Yeah.

Heather (33:18):
Really?

Zoe (33:18):
Yeah.

Heather (33:19):
Okay.
That's actually a question I didn'tknow the answer to, but I was
gonna say, that's what I would do.
I'd get in the shower and turn thewater and lie down and wait to throw up.
I, I do think that there was likea cognitive shift for me with
my ability to remember things.
Even still now, I'm like,my memory isn't great.
And then I was like, how much of that isjust being drunk and not remembering and
like, have I done something to my brain?

Zoe (33:39):
I don't know what happened between the ages of 17 to 23.
I don't know a lot of whathappened between that time.
To be honest, I don'thave a lot of memories.

Heather (33:48):
Maybe it was just great.

Zoe (33:49):
Definitely was not great.
Or else I wouldn't be sober.

Heather (33:52):
No.
Oh yeah.
Well that's good.
What were your daily drinking rituals?

Zoe (34:01):
I'd say I probably started to consistently drink in the
mornings when Covid started.

Heather (34:11):
Okay.

Zoe (34:11):
Yeah.
But I think in university I wouldmostly just wake up hungover, maybe
have one beer and go to school.
And then at our lunch, I would always goto the campus bar with my friend Elisa.
We'd probably have threebeers, two shots, go to class.
And then I'd pick up some wine forhome if I wasn't going out to the bar.

Heather (34:33):
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah, it's It's your whole day.

Zoe (34:35):
Yeah.

Heather (34:36):
Your whole day has revolved your drinking.

Zoe (34:37):
Well, it's kind of the same as like me smoking now.
Like I plan my cigarettes throughoutthe day and I feel like that's what
I was doing when I was drinking.
Just planning my drinks throughout my day.

Heather (34:46):
Right.
Yeah.
That's what I was doing.
Definitely like my whole daywas surrounded by alcohol.

Zoe (34:51):
Yeah.
I used to get a bottle ofwine during my lunch hour at
work, sometimes just to have.
And then I started to drink itduring work that was a sober slope.

Heather (34:59):
Okay.
Well, yeah.
So for years I wasn't drinkingin the morning, but always
at night when I got home.
Like I would pick up a bottle ofwine when I, for when I got home.
Like one or two bottles.
And then I did the drinking, walking home.
'cause I was like, why not?
I don't know.
Maybe I saw it on a TV show.
I didn't even realizeyou could walk and drink.
Well, you can't actually.
But also during Covid theywere really lenient on outside

(35:21):
drinking, on like public drinking.
They didn't give a shitbecause people were dying.

Zoe (35:24):
Oh.
I was always outside drinking.

Heather (35:27):
Well then when I started drinking in the morning, I was still living with
my ex, so I would leave the house early.
I would bring a Stanley water bottle,go to the LCBO, get a bottle of wine.
And then in the Uber I wouldcrack it and pour it all into.
Which, no, no Uber driverever said anything to me.
They were probably like,are you fucking getting me?

(35:47):
I would do that and then I wouldjust kind of like sip it all day
and then I would be drunk by noon.
But working, and I would try toonly really do that on days where
my specific boss wasn't there.
Like my direct boss.
Because if she was there, I hada lot of work to do, but I would
always try to book Sundays.
Like I would try to work onSundays because my ex would be
at home and I didn't wanna bethere 'cause I wanted to drink.

(36:09):
So I would book to work on Sundays.
No one was there and I would justgo to the LCBO, get two bottles
of wine and drink all day at work.
I would get my work done because like,you know when you drink and you get manic
and you're like, I can do everything.
I would do that until like two o'clockand then I would be like asleep.
And then I would go getwalking wine on the way home.
And then drink all night.

Zoe (36:29):
I love how you call it, walking wine.

Heather (36:30):
My walking wine.
Then I would go get home.
I'd already had like two or three cans.
I'd get the dog, we'd go to the park.
Then I would drink the last can,and then I'd get home and maybe
get a bottle of wine as if it wasthe only wine I'd had that day.
And then when Covid hit, then I was takingthree hour baths every single day and
bringing two bottles of wine in there.

Zoe (36:51):
It was obviously, our drinking patterns were different every day.
The point is that our day revolvedaround planning out our drinking.

Heather (37:00):
Oh yeah.
Oh, I had to know.
I had to know that there was either likewine on my person, at home where I was
going make sure I'm not out too late.
'cause if I'm out too late, theneverything is closed and then I have
to order from restaurants and like thatwas not easy at the beginning of Covid.

Zoe (37:15):
It's funny how you had to hide it from your partner 'cause I don't think
I ever had to hide it from my partner.

Heather (37:19):
Oh my God.

Zoe (37:20):
Because I always chose partners that were alcoholics as well.

Heather (37:23):
Well, we were talking about this before.
My partner Ted, he'll come on.
But when we started dating,we were like nervous kids.
So we were drinking a lot.
And then we would like go to hishouse and hook up or like go to
dinner and like drink and have fun.
And then eventually he was like, Idon't really wanna drink tonight,
like I don't drink like this.
And I was like.
Fuck, I thought we drank like this.
So you've set me up and I'malready your girlfriend.

Zoe (37:45):
Yeah.
How long was that?
Like a month or two?

Heather (37:48):
We started dating really quick.

Zoe (37:49):
Were you very codependent when you were drinking in relationships?

Heather (37:52):
Yes.
Oh my God, yes.
Because I don't think I'm enough.

Zoe (37:55):
And now we're like, I would say we're both the least codependent people ever.

Heather (37:59):
Oh my God.
Don't touch me.

Zoe (38:00):
That, that triggers me because that's exactly how I was when I was drinking.
I don't wanna be like that.

Heather (38:05):
Yeah.
I mean, my ex was tryingto control my drinking.
Rightly so.
He was living with a fullblown, disgusting alcoholic.
And mind you, I had restarted takinglaxatives because I was drinking
so much and I wasn't pooping.

Zoe (38:17):
And you were gaining weight?

Heather (38:17):
Yes.
And I, I was gaining weight and I wasn'tpooping, so I'm like, let me get this out.
But when I started taking laxativesagain, my body couldn't handle them.
So anytime I would take alaxative, I would also throw up.
So he had seen me so many times sittingon the toilet, shitting my brains
out and throwing up into a bucket.

Zoe (38:32):
Wow.
All of my partners I really got drunkwith until it seemed like I could never
drink as much as my partners becausethey were men and still handle myself.
So I would always be the crazy oneand then they were eventually like,
oh my God, you're absolutely insane.
Then break up with me.

Heather (38:53):
But at first it was like a cool thing.
Like my girl's drinking,she's fun, she's crazy.
And then it's like, wait,you're my girlfriend.
Can you calm down?

Zoe (38:59):
Yeah.
It was just a toxic thingfor a very long time until I
eventually got broken up with.

Heather (39:03):
Yeah.
It's like you saw me, youknew what I was doing.

Zoe (39:06):
You knew what you were getting into.

Heather (39:07):
And now you're coming and trying to control everything
and fighting me about it.
But also, yeah, of course.

Zoe (39:13):
Of course.

Heather (39:15):
I feel like we've just talked about this, but guilt
and shame, was that a big thing?

Zoe (39:18):
Guilt and shame were obviously a big part of it.
I would struggle with that every day.
And that's why I also had to keepdrinking, 'cause I didn't wanna feel that.
I didn't wanna feel that.
I wanted to numb that out.
And that's the cycle of it.
You start drinking 'cause it's fun.

Heather (39:35):
Yeah.

Zoe (39:35):
And then you start drinking because you did something
fucked up when you were drunk.

Heather (39:40):
Yeah.

Zoe (39:40):
And then you start drinking because you're shameful of who you are.

Heather (39:45):
Yeah.

Zoe (39:46):
And then you can't stop.

Heather (39:48):
You can't live with that kind of shame.
You have to mask the shame.

Zoe (39:50):
Yeah.

Heather (39:50):
It's, it's, it's so unmanageable to be that ashamed of yourself.
Mine would be, I'm drinking,I'm gaining weight.
I can't do that, but I can't go back toanorexia or bulimia because it's too hard.
I just couldn't do it anymore.
So, but I'm also not gonna stop drinking.

(40:11):
So the only way to do that isto just drink the shame away.
So I'm gaining weight.
I'm drinking about it.
I'm gaining weight from drinking about it.
I'm upset.

Zoe (40:20):
Your shame was a lot around your weight.

Heather (40:23):
Yeah.
And my weight has to do with-

Zoe (40:26):
The drinking

Heather (40:27):
But also my value in life.
And my worth.
Right.

Zoe (40:31):
I obviously like didn't like how my body was looking
at some periods of my drinking.

Heather (40:37):
Were you eating when you were drinking?

Zoe (40:39):
Barely.
My, one of the first things my friendsaid to me when I got outta rehab and
we started going to dinners together,Elisa, she was like, oh my God, it's so
nice to actually see you eating food.
Because I would go to dinners before andbe too drunk to be able to eat and too
focused on the drinking, then the eating.
So I would just never eat, or I wouldeat two bites and then puke it all up

(41:01):
because I, my stomach couldn't handle it.
All it could handle was the booze.

Heather (41:05):
Yeah.
Other people have said that to me.
When I first went to rehab, I had onefriend in there who was an alcoholic.
Um, she was saying, yeah,when I drink, I don't eat.
And other people were saying, oh yeah,the same way where when I drink, I
don't drink coffee in the morning.
I was like, what?
The way that I was survivingwas like wine, pizza and coffee.
That's how I was like, no coffee.
Oh yeah.
My husband knows that I'mdrinking again because I'm not

(41:27):
drinking coffee in the morning.
Well then just drink coffee in themorning and throw him off your scent.
Idiots.

Zoe (41:32):
Idiots.

Heather (41:33):
Literally, when you're an alcoholic and you're hiding
alcohol, you can't sustain that.
People will find out, and it is soembarrassing when they find alcohol,
like in between your springboards.

Zoe (41:42):
Yeah, and I was like a messy drunk, so like I couldn't hide it that well.
I was messy.
Sorry.

Heather (41:47):
Okay.
There was a closet in my bathroom atmy old place where if you like move
the handle, it would be because I wouldjust throw all my empties in there.

Zoe (41:54):
Yeah.
I would throw my emptiesin like my closet.

Heather (41:57):
Never a garbage.

Zoe (41:58):
Well, I couldn't put that much empties in my parents' garbage
when I was living with them.
I couldn't, so I had to hide it andstrategically get it out of the house.

Heather (42:07):
Right.
I was even hiding them onmyself when I lived alone.

Zoe (42:10):
When I was living alone.
I just couldn't bring all of that boozedownstairs because I wouldn't wanna go
into the elevator with that much boozebecause I knew I was an alcoholic.
I knew that wasn't the rightamount of booze that I should
be bringing down to recycle.

Heather (42:24):
I've had to switch, I had to switch delivery services
because they would know who I was.
There were like sixdelivery men who knew me.
I had my morning guy, my afternoonguy, my nighttime guy, and it
would be the same person often.
And you had to show them your id.
So you actually had to openthe door and speak with them.
And one guy was like, Hey, Ijust do this on the side so we

(42:46):
don't have to go through Uber.
So if you want wine, like I'll justpick it up for you 'cause that's what
I do with other people in the area.
And I was like, amazing.
And I gave him my number and thenhe texted me when I was in rehab
and my counselor was like, youshould delete that number now.

Zoe (42:58):
That's so funny.
What's the worst time, like youdidn't get away with hiding it?
I think mine was at my ex's cousin'swedding and I got way too drunk.
I snuck in a mickey and my purse,and I was obviously drinking

(43:22):
at the open bar throughout.
But I needed that mickey todrink by myself in the bathroom.
So that I could drink more thaneveryone was thinking I was.

Heather (43:31):
Of course.
Because by the way, it also takes you alittle longer to get drunk than everybody
else because you're addicted to it.
So, you know, you have a highertolerance, so you have to.

Zoe (43:40):
But then I remember, I think I fell asleep at eight o'clock in the field
'cause it was at a random golf course.
His mom had to call a cab and literallytaxi me home 45 minutes and she couldn't
like be in the wedding for an hour 'causeshe was taking care of me in the field.

Heather (44:05):
Oh shit.

Zoe (44:06):
One of those times where you think you can handle it all the time.
And then you wake up and you'relike, fuck, I didn't handle that one.

Heather (44:12):
I'm in the field.
God dammit.
I'm in the forest.

Zoe (44:14):
Literally.

Heather (44:15):
Yeah.
I mean, the time in NewYork, oh, this is bad.
This is when my ex and I were breaking up.
Like I went to New York with him.
He was moving there and I was drinkingso much, but I was hiding it 'cause at
that point he thought I had slowed down.
And I had not.

Zoe (44:29):
If you're an alcoholic, I promise you you're not hiding
it as good as you think you are.

Heather (44:32):
Oh no, you're really not because I've seen some of you drinking and-

Zoe (44:38):
We know that you're lying.

Heather (44:39):
Yeah.
We know you're lying.

Zoe (44:39):
We just love you still so we won't like get you out of our lives.

Heather (44:41):
Even if you relapse and say crazy fucking shit to
me, I'll still be your friend.
Like it's happened, but my ex, we were inNew York and I can't remember how quickly
it happened, but I met up with my friendEmery, and we went to the park and we
just got really fucked up, like, I don'tknow, four bottles of wine between the two
of us over the span of like five hours.

(45:03):
And I was lying in the fieldand then I, I had Nike with me.
I had the dog and I called Ted 'causeI was like, can you come get Nike?
And he did.
And he was pissed off about that'cause he was like working or whatever.
And then later it was like midnightand I was like, can you come get me?
I'm like really drunk andI can't walk home alone.
Like I couldn't.
I could not walk home alone.

(45:24):
And there were like porta-potties,like the nice New York ones and I
wanted to go, but they were locked.
And I was like, oh no,I have to pee so bad.
And I just peed myself on the way home.
I like made a consciouschoice and I was like-

Zoe (45:35):
Did you not wanna pop a squat?

Heather (45:37):
He was so mad at me, Zoe, he came to get me.
He was pissed.
He was like, you're so fucking drunk.
I, he walked in front of me the wholetime and then when we got in the elevator,
he's like, did you fucking piss yourself?
And I was like, yeah,I couldn't do anything.
You wouldn't let me stopto go to the bathroom.
You're mad at me.
I'm terrified.
Not terrified I wasn't gonna doanything, but like, he was so
mad and I was so embarrassed.
Then I just like got in theshower with all my clothes on.

(45:57):
The next day we were moving toa different hotel and he did
not speak to me the whole time.
And in our taxi on the way, Iwas like, you gotta pull over.
And I got outta the taxi justlike somewhere in Manhattan
and threw up on the sidewalk.
And then he didn't speak to me for liketwo days and then we had a big talk and
it was bad and I knew I was lying aboutslowing down and I was apologetic and

(46:18):
then I was just going down to the lobbyevery day and drinking my fucking face
off pretending to study for real estate.

Zoe (46:24):
The lie-

Heather (46:24):
That was bad.

Zoe (46:25):
The lying.

Heather (46:26):
Well, the lying.
The lying is what we're getting into next.
Lying to everybody.
Lying to myself about howbad the addiction was.
Did you find you were in thatplace where you're like, I'm fine?

Zoe (46:40):
I just, I knew I wasn't fine, but I knew I didn't wanna do anything about it.
Honestly, I was just likeset to just die at one point.
For sure.

Heather (46:47):
I would do a thing where I was like.
Okay.
It's not that bad.
Like other people drink or otherpeople do things that are way worse.
They're like, okay, tonight Ionly had one bottle of wine.
That's great.
Or I would just be like, I would think oftimes, specific times where I know other
people got really drunk and I'm like, ohyeah, that person's drinking sometimes.
It's like, yeah.
And I would lie to myself'cause I was afraid.

(47:07):
I was really afraid.
I was like, this is gonna have to stop.
I don't think that that's possible,so I don't know what I'm gonna do.

Zoe (47:13):
I think that was definitely how I justified it in the early stages, like
the last two years of my drinking, I wasprobably like just accepting of my fate
that I am a drunk and I may not make it.

Heather (47:27):
But did you ever get the lucid moments of the I would like lying in
bed probably at night when I would goto bed and wake up and I would have
the like, okay, I'm sober right now.
I cannot drink like that.
I can't drink anymore.

Zoe (47:40):
I would say that.

Heather (47:41):
Yeah.

Zoe (47:41):
Yeah.
But it just, it wouldn't ever be true.

Heather (47:45):
No.
I would drink the next morning.

Zoe (47:47):
Yeah.

Heather (47:47):
Or I would drink a day and I'd be like, okay, today is
the day I'm, this is the last day.
And then I'd be like, okay, wellif today is the last day, then I
might as well drink today then,and I'll just start tomorrow.

Zoe (47:55):
I don't think I ever was like, I am never gonna drink again.
I never had that thought inmy head until I went to rehab.

Heather (48:02):
I think I had that, that thought anytime.
I was like throwing up in the bathroomthe next morning, but not in a real way.
Anytime I got really, really sick fromdrinking, I was drinking that night.

Zoe (48:12):
Yeah.

Heather (48:12):
It just depended how sick I was to where I could like
get up and walk to the store.

Zoe (48:17):
Hot.
Talking about this so much it isjust reminding me how exhausting
it was and all consuming.

Heather (48:26):
Well, that's the thing, right?
When people, when you assumealcoholics, you assume like a man in
his fifties, big beer belly, just lazy.
Lazy.
Let me tell you, addicts are thehardest working people out here.

Zoe (48:38):
Sneaky as fuck too.
Like I didn't get away with a lot,but I got away with some of it.

Heather (48:42):
The way that I describe it is a double life.
I was fully living a double life.
I was being so sneaky, but hadto pretend to certain people
like my parents that I was fine.
Yeah.
I didn't look fine.
I was gaining a lot of weight.
They knew I was super depressed.
They knew I was drinking too much.
I just had to do whatever I hadto do to protect my drinking.
If I looked too bad, if I drank toomuch in front of them, I was afraid

(49:03):
they were gonna take it from me.

Zoe (49:04):
That resonates with me too.
Like when people were like,oh, well how are you doing?
I would always say like, I'm okay,because I wanted them to know that I
was fine with me drinking like a lot.
Like I didn't want anyone to questionmy drinking, so I would just act fine.
Even though I, in my heart, Iwas dying inside, but I would
just act like everything was fineso I could just keep drinking.

Heather (49:26):
Yeah.
Because you're like, I'm not good,but if you take this from me.
Yeah.
If this thing goes away, that's bad.
That's, that is the worst I couldpossibly imagine, so I can't get there.

Zoe (49:36):
But yeah, most people would like stop if any of this stuff happened.
We are insane people to justcontinue ruining our lives
for years and years and years.

Heather (49:45):
And that's the question for people who aren't alcoholics or
haven't dealt with it, it's like, why?
Why are you doing it?
It's so harmful for you.
It makes you look like shit.
It makes you an idiot.
It's ruining your fucking life.
Why?
I didn't wanna be here.
It didn't ruin my life when Istarted, when it started to ruin
my life, I was already in it.
I couldn't get out.
You can't just hop off.

Zoe (50:06):
I can't just stop.

Heather (50:07):
You can't.

Zoe (50:07):
That's insane.

Heather (50:09):
No, and, and the double life was getting really scary.
The like, oh.
I would say shit to my sister.
Like, I kind of feel like I only wannadrink like mocktails on the weekends now.
I like drinking, but I feel likethe way I'm drinking isn't really
serving me and I feel like I wannado more like, I would say dumb shit
like that to overcompensate for theentire thing while I'm like sitting on

(50:32):
her couch drinking a bottle of wine.

Zoe (50:34):
Were you a liar before you started drinking?

Heather (50:35):
Yes.
I've always been a liar.

Zoe (50:36):
Yeah, same.

Heather (50:36):
I've been a liar.
I love lying.

Zoe (50:38):
I love lying to.
I can't lie anymore and it's almostannoying to me because when someone asks
me something like I need to tell them thetruth which is so frustrating sometimes.

Heather (50:50):
Well, you're like, if I don't tell you the truth,
I'm gonna think about it.
I'm gonna have to text you later.
I'm gonna have talk aboutin AA, I'm gonna drink.

Zoe (50:55):
Yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
And that's the rabbithole that it does go down.

Heather (50:58):
Yeah.

Zoe (50:59):
So it's almost annoying how truthful I need to be with some people and even
some of my friends are like, I hatehow brutally honest you are with me.
I'm like, I'm sorry, but I. Do youhate that or am I the only one that's
actually telling you how it is?

Heather (51:13):
Yeah.
People need that.
I mean, we hated it whenpeople were giving it to us.
Brutal honesty.

Zoe (51:19):
Now I like it.

Heather (51:20):
Well, now I, well now we need it.

Zoe (51:21):
Now we need it.
And is that, that's the thing.

Heather (51:23):
And now we're more receptive to it because our emotions are regulated.
And if you're a friend and you'retelling me something that hurt your
feelings or something that I'm doing.
If you're my friend now, I'm like, oh,let's fix that so we can be friends.

Zoe (51:36):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah.

Heather (51:37):
Not like, fuck you.
Everything you do is wrong.
Everything I do is right.
And I'm gonna drink about it.
It's just different.
Did you feel like you were reallyhiding your drinking from people?

Zoe (51:52):
The only thing I was hiding with my drinking was how
much I was actually drinking.
I can't get over how exhaustingthis all sounds, Heather.

Heather (52:00):
I know.

Zoe (52:00):
I can't believe we used to do that.

Heather (52:01):
It is nice to reflect and be like, I was a busy girl for no reason.

Zoe (52:06):
Well, that's all we knew.
That's what we had to do to survivefor those years, to be honest.

Heather (52:12):
Yeah.

Zoe (52:13):
And that's what we needed for us.
When I sobered up, it wasshocking how I wasn't depressed
and I wasn't that anxious.
I realize that yeah, mydepression and anxiety just
came because I was an alcoholic.
That realization was shocking to me.
Honestly, because I just thought Iwas an anxious and depressed person.

(52:36):
I didn't even understand that obviously itwas because I was drinking all the time.

Heather (52:41):
And if you had found that out before you went to rehab,
that wouldn't have stopped you.

Zoe (52:45):
I don't know.
I couldn't separate it becauseI couldn't stop drinking.
I tried stopping, I tried controlling it.
Nothing could help me.
And I think that's the saddestpart, because the reality was
like I didn't give a shit anymoreand I just wanted to die then.

Heather (53:02):
Like, well you couldn't give a shit and alcohol was keeping you
from doing anything, but it was theonly thing that would keep you alive.

Zoe (53:08):
Killing myself like scared the shit outta me.

Heather (53:10):
Yeah, me too too.

Zoe (53:10):
And that's I think, why I just kept drinking so much too 'cause I,
I think I like even prayed back inthe day like, oh, maybe I'll just
wake up and I won't be here anymore.

Heather (53:18):
Oh my God.
I was always hoping my my hormones wouldchange or like I would need to get a
surgery or something and that would like-

Zoe (53:25):
Cure you?

Heather (53:26):
Yeah.
Like change my brain chemistry andthen I just like wouldn't want it.
I tried to do hypnosis, like Ithink that's the other thing with
addicts, we've tried to stop.

Zoe (53:35):
Yeah.

Heather (53:36):
If we could stop and just go on with our day, we would.
We don't wanna do that.

Zoe (53:40):
Yeah.
People telling us to stop, obviouslywe know that we should stop.

Heather (53:44):
Yeah.

Zoe (53:45):
Duh.
We're not stupid.
Addicts aren't stupid.

Heather (53:49):
We're not stupid.

Zoe (53:49):
We know that we should stop.

Heather (53:51):
It's not fathomable.

Zoe (53:52):
It's not fathomable.

Heather (53:53):
It's not, it's not, it's not even an option on the table.
You can't, like, there's,you can't do that.

Zoe (53:58):
Until like, at least for me, I did need to get separated from it and
understand what I was doing and learnthings to make me feel good without it.

Heather (54:08):
Yeah.
And now it's so nice to be like,I'm sober and I'm confident in
that and I'm happy about it.
And that's all the bullshit I wentthrough and I'm not gonna forget it.
Yeah.
'cause I needed it to get here, you know?

Zoe (54:20):
It seems so big to say to like, just get sober.
It's, yeah.
It's the biggest thing ever.

Heather (54:29):
Oh yeah.
It's Everest.

Zoe (54:31):
Yeah.

Heather (54:31):
It's fully Everest.

Zoe (54:32):
It is.

Heather (54:32):
And there's a lot of collateral along the way.

Zoe (54:34):
Yeah and it's so scary because you think that your life
is ruined, obviously, right?
Yeah.
Like I thought my life was ruined.
I thought that nobody was gonnalike me, you know, being sober,
but it's the complete opposite.
Like people will forgive you ifyou give them like the choice
to, if you grow up a little bit.

(54:55):
It doesn't take much forpeople to forgive you.
People know that you are drunk.
People know it was a lotof the time, the booze.

Heather (55:01):
People have empathy.

Zoe (55:02):
People have empathy.

Heather (55:03):
Like you said before, talking about that I feel exhausted.

Zoe (55:06):
Oh my God.

Heather (55:07):
For younger, for drunk Heather, I feel exhausted and I'm like, hey.

Zoe (55:11):
Put the bottle down.

Heather (55:12):
Put the bottle down and realize that you gotta get sober.
'Cause it's so much better.

Zoe (55:17):
So much better.
And people will forgive youand life can be rebuilt.
I was rebirthed in rehab

Heather (55:24):
1000%.
And I'm proud of you.

Zoe (55:28):
Proud of you, babe.

Heather (55:28):
Bye.

Zoe (55:30):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl, Un Drunk.
You can follow us on Instagram andTikTok @GirlUnDrunkPodcast and or send
me an email at [e-mail].
And before we go, thank you to our amazingproducer, Ariane Michaud and support from

(55:52):
her team at Consciously Produced MartinNunez-Bonilla for the graphics, Ian
Sit for setting up our sound and DanielJames for the music and final edits.
This podcast would not be possible without

(56:15):
you.