Addiction Doesn't Discriminate

Heather and Zoe recap their trip to Toronto’s ZERO Bar and unpack why talking about being sober can make people really uncomfortable. Plus—social media haters, the line between drinking and addiction, and why we’d still pull a tampon out for a bestie.

This episode, with timestamps and extras, is available on Youtube here. 

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Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.

(00:26):
Hi guys.
Guys, welcome back to Girl.
I'm drunk.
How are ya?
We're on episode 22.
That's insane.
I know.
22. It's crazy.
I was already thinking, I'm like,we have to do something for 25.
Yeah, and then we have to do somethingfor 50, then 75, then a hundred.
I wonder what correlates, whatepisode will correlate with Halloween?

(00:46):
We have to think about whatwe're gonna do for Halloween.

Zoe (00:48):
I think for our Halloween episode, we should tell like, the most
scary stories that we've like done.

Heather (00:53):
Yeah.
Or, and I think we should get like,listener, listener, horror stories.
Yeah.
Like, like drinking horror stories.
Yeah.
I think that could be, yeah.
Tell some of our own as well.
Yeah.

Zoe (01:03):
We'll dress up on the pod.

Heather (01:04):
We'll dress up on the pod.
We, we gotta figure out somelike redhead characters.
Yeah.

Zoe (01:07):
We need to get like a costume, like designer, makeup artist.

Heather (01:10):
Okay.
If anybody knows, who knows

Zoe (01:12):
to come.

Heather (01:13):
Budget is.
No unlimited, unlimited budget.
We need to, someone needs toemail us or DM us and tell us who
are some spooky redheads, somemurderers, some spooky red redheads.

Zoe (01:25):
We could dress up like those as those kids, I guess in the
shining, or were they redheads?

Heather (01:30):
They weren't, but like that's us.
Yeah.
Okay.
Let's do that and just go into, breakinto people's apartments and just
stand at the end of the hallway or,yeah, that's how we'll open the door.
We should have a party.

Zoe (01:42):
You are not gonna have a party.
You're not gonna have a party.
You're not gonna have

Heather (01:44):
a

Zoe (01:44):
party.
Hi Zoe.

Heather (01:45):
Hi.
How are

Zoe (01:47):
you?
I am good.
Honestly, I feel really good.
Yeah.
I feel, I feel like great.
Do you?
I really do.
Yeah.
I kind of do too.
I kind of have no complaints.
I am.
I'm gonna be talking to my work nextweek about coming in late on Fridays
to have the podcast on a regular day.
So I'm like a little bit nervous forthat, but also like what makes, I don't

(02:09):
think they can say no to me at this point.
Like they need me around.
What makes you nervous about it?
I guess just like askingfor things that I want.
Yeah.
Like it's not somethingthat I'm comfortable with.
Mm-hmm.
Per se.
Mm-hmm.
No.
So.
Scary and like confrontation in generalis like, I'm not the best at it totally.
But I know I like deserveit and like I need it.

(02:31):
So

Heather (02:31):
yeah.
It's also your life.
Yeah.
And I mean confrontation, itis really just a question.
Yeah.
It's really just being like, thisis what's going on in my life now.
Yeah.
There's a shift.
Can we work around this?
Exactly.
I'm totally fine.

Zoe (02:43):
Yeah, and I was just saying like it is nice that like I am doing long
distance with my boyfriend right nowand I do obviously miss him, but it
is nice to like have these not breaksbecause like I talk to him every
night, but it's just like space Nice.
That it's not like jealousy or likeanything when I'm away from him and
it just seems like so comfy and Ican, when I'm away from him, I just.

(03:07):
Do my own thing and it's nice to miss him.
Yeah.
It's so

Heather (03:12):
nice.

Zoe (03:12):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I just like, I feel like I'm ina really good spot right now.

Heather (03:16):
I'm feeling pretty good too.
What would you say your mental health is?
One outta 10 right now.
I'm gonna say an 8.5.
Okay.
I'm into that.
I'm just like, I know I can't

Zoe (03:23):
control anything, so I'm just

Heather (03:26):
like.
Living my fucking life.
Yeah.
I'm doing this thing well.
Doing this thing.
I keep like saying this, likejust going with the universe.
Yeah.
The universe is just carrying me.
Trusting it.
Yeah.
I, well I was talking to this personI'm involved with yesterday and I
was like, I feel like, well I've hadthis conversation a few times 'cause
my mental health recently so good.

(03:46):
And that makes me nervous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause I'm like, what's hapwhat's coming down the pipe?
I don't know.
Have you heard of, um, communally

Zoe (03:53):
sober being communally sober?

Heather (03:55):
No.
What is that?
I like it

Zoe (03:57):
Communally sober.
Is it a commune of people who are sober?
I'll move there today.
We should.
Okay.
So my friend was tellingme last night that.
They're seeing this non-binary personthat lives in Seattle and they are
sober, but they're communally sober.
Their LGBTQ plus community in Seattleis so big, and I guess a lot of them

(04:18):
are sober because they have to be.
Yeah.
And this person just chooses to be sober.
Sober.
I can't speak.
No, that was great.
That was perfection.
They choose to be soberfor their community.
Mm-hmm.
They don't need to be sober themselves,but they're like my people that I surround
myself with, they need to be sober, soI'd rather be sober to support them.

(04:38):
Yeah.
And it's community being community sober.
That's so nice.
It's so nice.
And it brings us back tothe, our reels mm-hmm.
That we've been getting a lot of hate on.
Mm-hmm.
Saying that, you know, if yourpartner needs to be sober, you
should decide to be sober as well.

Heather (04:54):
Yeah.

Zoe (04:55):
These aren't even people in relationships together.
Yeah.
They're just people part of a community.
Yeah.
And they're choosing to besober for the community.
Mm. Which is so nice.
Well, it's

Heather (05:05):
empathy first.
Mm-hmm.
It's also community first.
Yeah.
Which is actually what.
We are supposed to be doing as asociety, you live longer, you're
healthier, you're more like mentallystable if you're around community.
Yeah.
And also like that's what addicts need.
Addicts that are sober needto be around community.
Yeah.
I think that's beautiful.
I think that's so

Zoe (05:24):
cool.
And yeah, just so like.
Selfless, you know?
Yeah.
Like, I need to do, I want to do this formy people and this is what my people need.

Heather (05:34):
However, that's not like super accessible for most people.
Yeah.
And I'd also imagine earlyL-G-B-T-Q moving to the city.
Yeah.
Just like us early, moving to the city,the option of like hanging out with a
bunch of sober people and having fun.
Mm-hmm.
That's not really, that'snot really accessible.
Yeah.
Nor would I have wantedthat, nor would I have known.
Yeah.

Zoe (05:53):
It's a good thing.
Well, my friend did say that whenthey were here last summer, visiting
for a couple weeks, they went tothe village and they did go to
a lot of, um, like sober events.
I guess they were saying thatthere is more sober lgbtq
plus like events in the city.
Now that's good because like.

(06:15):
A lot of the gay community is sober.
They were like, that makes sensethat the Zero Bar is in the village.
Yeah.
Because of the community that's there.

Heather (06:23):
So we went to Zero Bar last week.
We talked about it on the podcast.
Yeah.
And we went

Zoe (06:27):
right after.
It was so fun.
It was so fun.
Definitely.
Gail is amazing.
Gail's the owner of Zero Bar Guys.
Just go see what a sweetheart.
Literally you could talk to Gail

Heather (06:36):
for

Zoe (06:37):
hours and be

Heather (06:38):
so entertained and like kind of feel drunk.
We walked in, it's called Zero Bar.
It's in Cabbagetown.
Mm-hmm.
On Carlton.
It's.
It's like a, I guess mostly a bottle shop.
Mm-hmm.
But also a small bar.
Yeah.
And Gail's there making your mocktails.
Yeah, it was great.
And there's food in front too.
There's Trinidadian food.
Mm-hmm.
Thursday to Sunday.

(06:58):
Yeah.
And we just like walked in.
Gail was amazing.
And then immediately like started givingus, sending us non-alcoholic shots.
Yeah.
And booze, which I'm fine with.
Yeah.
How did you feel?

Zoe (07:08):
Well, I don't think I've ever sipped a non-alcoholic vermouth.
Vermouth.
I loved it.
I was like, oh, wow.
Yeah, we're drinking.

Heather (07:17):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (07:19):
Yeah.

Heather (07:19):
It feels like you're drinking.

Zoe (07:20):
It does feel like you're drinking.
So, like, not my fve.
Mm-hmm.
But I get the experience and it isnice for people who want that mm-hmm.
Experience.
I don't crave that.

Heather (07:31):
Yeah.

Zoe (07:32):
I was more into like the, the mocktails, the,

Heather (07:36):
like the more soapies Yeah.
The, like the juice, the herbs,the like not decolonized, actual

Zoe (07:41):
alcohol.
Yeah.
Or, yeah.
I am.
It was cool though, to likelearn about that world.
It is cool.
And it is getting so big.

Heather (07:51):
Well, you know what I found so interesting?
Yeah.
Gail was like saying like, thisis like the biggest, we have
the most and then there's likemultiple little around around.
Yeah.
But I guess this one is theonly one with a bar in it.
Mm-hmm.
Which I like the way that gaand, we'll, we'll have a, we'll
have a little Kiki with Gale.
Mm-hmm.
We'll talk to Gail.
But, um, Gail was talking to us about.

(08:11):
They love vodka.
Yeah.
And that was like their drink.
Yeah.
Like alcohol, vodka, loved vodka.
Yeah.
Had to get sober.
I won't go into that,but still loves vodka.
Yeah.
And like wants to drinkvodka, wants non-alcoholic
vodka and all other alcohols.
And I think, is it vodka theonly one that they don't have?
Yeah.
Like they're stilltrying to like find one.

(08:32):
Yeah.
Honestly, they shouldjust make one themselves.
I think it's harder than it.
Like it's pretty hard to do that.
Gail, where's vodka made?
Is it rice?
Potatoes.

Zoe (08:45):
Potatoes?

Heather (08:45):
Yeah.
Rain, not rain.
Corn

Zoe (08:48):
is whiskey.
Or they were saying that it's hardto import some of these things
into Canada as well, so it couldbe like an importation issue.
Yeah.

Heather (08:58):
And now with the tariffs, I feel like alcohol, I mean.
Non-alcoholic.
Yeah.
And alcoholic is the same price basically.
Yeah.
I feel like, but yeah, I wonder,I mean, they probably will
just make their own eventually.
'cause I hope so.
Gail's vodka.

Zoe (09:11):
Gail's vodka,

Heather (09:12):
you can drive, you know, we were sitting there having our,
yeah, our drinks in our food.
Food.
And it's a sober place.
Yeah.
There was, there was a, there's no alcohol

Zoe (09:23):
there.

Heather (09:23):
There's no alcohol.
Yeah.
There was a sober.
Dinner happening.
Yeah.
With like some other creators.
It was really cool.
It was like an

Zoe (09:29):
influencer sober dinner.

Heather (09:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And which we should do a dinner there.
'cause that would be fun.
I feel like Gail would love to makeus all some cocktails of course, but.
The server.
There was one server.
Yeah.
Came over to us and she was so cuteand she did seem a little overwhelmed.
Yeah.
It was only her.
Yeah.
And

Zoe (09:47):
it was busy,

Heather (09:47):
busy night because we're surrounded by sober
shit and non-alcoholic shit.
I just assume everybodyin that building is sober.
Yeah.
And I looked at her, she cameover and I said, are you sober?
And she was like taken aback.
Mm-hmm.
So caught off guard and she waslike, um, yeah, I'm just tired.
Yeah.

(10:08):
And I was like, girl called her out.
I was like, oh my God.
I'm not asking you ifyou're currently on drugs.
Yeah.
I'm asking you if you're sober.
Yeah.
Because you work at a sober bar.
Like it was so funny and I felt bad.

Zoe (10:20):
Kinda.
Yeah.
Well, it's just like, it's interestingthat that's where people go first.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Like that's not whatyou were saying at all.
No, but that's where

Heather (10:29):
she went first.
And it's funny that like you're workingat a sober bar and me asking you Yeah.
Like, are you sober?
You're not immediately like.
Yeah, I've been sober for three years.
They're like, no, I'm notsober, but I work here.
Like, I just assume, yeah, ifyou work at a skincare clinic,
you probably like skincare.
Yeah.
You know?
Well, she, she never even said if she was

Zoe (10:44):
sober or not.
I don't know.
No, she

Heather (10:46):
didn't.

Zoe (10:47):
She didn't.
So we still don't know.
But that was triggering to mebecause that's exactly how I
got fired from one of my jobs.
Right.
Yeah.

Heather (10:54):
Right.
And you said that And I was like.
I, it's fine.
'cause like you shouldn'tbe drinking on the job.
Yeah.
And I, she probably wasn't.
She was.
No, and that's also not why I asked her.
I just wanted to know if she was sober andthen to tell us her trauma and her story.
Exactly.
We wanted

Zoe (11:09):
to Kiki with her and she wasn't getting it.
She was, I think she was overwhelmed.

Heather (11:12):
Yeah, for sure.
But I, it got me thinking and myfriend Sarah actually voice 'cause she
voice messages me after every episode.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
It's lovely.
Mm-hmm.
And she was saying.
You guys are so open about your sobriety.
Mm-hmm.
And what happened toyou and your addictions.
She's like, but I wonder, like,do you have boundaries about it?
Like if people just come up to youon the street and ask you about it?

(11:33):
Or if like someone's, like if yourboyfriend's dad asked you about it.
Yeah.
Are you cool to talk about it?
Or are we just so open herebecause we're in this room?
Also, how comfortable arewe asking people about their
sobriety and should we, we, should

Zoe (11:49):
we?
Yeah.
Well, I think that.
We can ask, but mm-hmm.
Not assume that they'regonna tell us everything.
Yeah.
And also, like I was saying, when thatgirl, when I told that girl a couple weeks
ago that I was sober, I didn't wanna getinto the nitty gritty with her 'cause I
had just met her and we were at a party.
Like I wasn't gonna tellher my life story there.

(12:09):
Yeah.
Then and there, there are so timesI don't want to go into being
like, yeah, I'm an alcoholic.
Yeah.
I go to meetings.
Yeah.
I'm a crazy person, you know?
Because sometimes like if I, ifI'm not in a good head space Yeah.
And I go into that, I couldpotentially be hurting myself in a way.

Heather (12:28):
Mm-hmm.
So I

Zoe (12:29):
think you have to always remember like, am I feeling good
to talk about this right now?
For me at least.
What do you mean hurting yourself?
Like going back into like.
Place.
Okay.
Okay.
If I'm not feeling good already andremembering all the shit that I used
to do could be detrimental to myself.
I

Heather (12:45):
see what you're saying.
Yeah.
Because when

Zoe (12:47):
we walk into this room, yeah.

Heather (12:49):
I

Zoe (12:49):
feel totally safe here.

Heather (12:50):
Yeah.
And our intentions are set.
Yeah.
Like we're gonna be talking about.
Mm-hmm.
Addiction, trauma, everything that comes.
Well, I remember

Zoe (12:55):
the first couple episodes we did, like I got so fucking anxious after.
Yeah, me too.
Because I had never talkedabout sobriety in such length.

Heather (13:04):
Yeah.

Zoe (13:04):
That it was like, whew.
That was a lot, you know?
Yeah.
Now I'm used to it with you, but

Heather (13:09):
Yeah, now it's, well, it's like literally the only thing I talk about.
I'm so boring.
But you love talking about it

Zoe (13:15):
in every scenario, I think.

Heather (13:17):
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, and I, and I think it's likewhatever, it's part of my A DH
ADHD or whatever's wrong with me,but I, I really am fixated on it.
Mm-hmm.
And I just am constantlyamazed at people Yeah.
And things that they go through.
Yeah.
And how they're sober and people who,people who have addiction in the family,
but never had an addiction themselves.

(13:39):
I, I'm just so fascinated by everybody.
And I also

Zoe (13:41):
think that we come at it from people.
In a different perspective becausewe are alcoholics ourselves.
Like, it's not like we'rejudging or like Right.
You know, like I think we'reallowed to ask other people that
because we're alcoholics ourselvesand we're sober ourselves.
It'd be weird if someone else like was

Heather (13:57):
Yeah.

Zoe (13:58):
Trying to interrogate a sober person like that.
Yeah.
You know, if someone was interrogatingme and I didn't feel comfortable
talking about it, I'd be like, yo, no.

Heather (14:05):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I, I do like to be the person in the roomor in any new situation that's just like.
This is my trauma.
Mm-hmm.
Or like, or like one radical thing.
Mm-hmm.
And then I feel, and I thinkthat's also what makes me super
annoying, but like, absolutely not.
But I think it, it, for me, I feellike I wanna make people comfy.

(14:26):
Yeah.
So I'm like, if I just say a weirdfucking thing that I've done or like
something sexual or something ridiculous.
Yeah.
Then other people are like, okay,

Zoe (14:36):
the tone has been set.
This is a safe space.
And now I can ex like tellmy story if I want to.
Yeah.
And like, which is nice.

Heather (14:43):
Yeah.
And like you're probablynever gonna shock me.
Well some, some of you shock me actually.
Some of you're very shocking,but I fucking love it.
But in a good way.
It's so good.
I just, yeah, it's oneof my favorite things.
I think you're right.
I think like as addicts, likewe can ask Yeah, I think I
do make a point usually too.
Address the situation,be like, I'm an addict.

(15:04):
Yeah.
If it comes up, which it always comesup, but I, I think maybe a little bit
of sensitivity to it because I, I, Ido have friends that aren't super open
about their addiction and their sobriety,which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Me, yeah.

Zoe (15:18):
Well, I also think that like if you're not open and like proud
of your sobriety, then you'restill like working on yourself.
Hopefully like your goal is to be happy

Heather (15:31):
about your sobriety.
Yeah.
You know, and it makes sense.
I mean.
Addiction is like shameful.
Yeah.
You know, societally.
Yeah.
Like it's not, but itfeels really shameful.
Like addiction is a sickness, butit's like it's a thing you're doing.
Yeah.
So you feel like, I can't control it.
I can't handle it.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, maybe a littlebit of sensitivity.
I do the same thing with pregnant people.
Anytime I see a pregnant personthat I like, kind of know, I'm

(15:52):
like, what's happening here?
What's going on?
How's your vagina?
Have you done the perennial massage?
I have asked.
Pregnant strangers.
Mm-hmm.
If their partners have done theperennial massage, which is like fisting.
No.
It's like the muscles right insideyour vagina are like really tight.
Apparently you have a lot of knotsin there, which makes sense if,
but you have to massage it out sothat when you give birth every.

(16:18):
It's like, makes it all easier.
So I'm like asking pregnant strangersif they've had fingers massaging
their vaginal knots and I justfeel entitled to that information.
Yeah.
When people are pregnant, I'mlike, oh, you're on display.
What's happening?
You know I'm obsessed.
When you're pregnant.

Zoe (16:34):
Yeah.
You're gonna, you'regonna be all up in there.
Oh, well, you massage my knots.

Heather (16:39):
Honestly, Zoe, I would.

Zoe (16:41):
I know you would.

Heather (16:42):
I would.
There's not much, andthat's a best friend.
There's not much I wouldn't do for you.
Like if you needed asuppository, I would put one in.
It's good to know.
Well, tell me, because I know youliterally always have me, would
you do anything gross for me?
If you had a tampon stuck upinside of you, I would take it out.
Thank you so much.
Okay.
That is exactly an,that's what you needed.
Great answer.
Yeah.

(17:02):
Were you expecting for sobriety and thispodcast to be so fucking polarizing?
No.
No.

Zoe (17:09):
I guess I didn't think about how alcohol and.
Not drinking is such asensitive topic for some people.
Yeah.
And I think it is just a sensitivetopic because no one wants to
look at their drinking like that.
Mm-hmm.
They just want to keep doing it and not.

(17:30):
Think about how, yeah, it is poisonand yeah, I am ruining my body
and yeah, this isn't a good thing.

Heather (17:35):
Yeah, it feels like, um, I wasn't expecting it to be so crazy,
especially because, and actuallymaybe it's not, especially, we're
not a health and wellness podcast.
No, we're not sober because we wannabe healthy and drink green juices
and like, you know, optimize living.
And I wonder if we were more of a healthand wellness podcast and the point was

(17:57):
health and wellness, if it would be less.
No, I don't.
So I think it'd be

Zoe (18:01):
even more.
You think more hate?
Yeah.
I, um, I, but the peoplecommenting on our shit, they
don't know that we're alcoholics.

Heather (18:10):
Well, sometimes they do though.
Like some of the things, likewe do use the word addict.
Yeah.
I know that I have friendsthat when I talk about sobriety
or I've like been out or.
With people who drink, there is anuncomfortable situation that happens.
Yeah.
Like there's, when I order a mocktailor a ginger ale and they drink,
there is like a Yeah, and it does.

(18:34):
Sitting next to a sober personor hearing the word sobriety
just makes you look inward.
It just does.
Well, like I

Zoe (18:39):
said, when we were starting this podcast, like if I came across our
eclipse and I was still drinking, yeah.
I would be like, oh, fuck these girls.
What do they know?
Like literally, yeah, I know thatI would be judging us if I was
still drinking, so I totally get

Heather (18:53):
it.
Oh my God.
I used to say all the time.
I used to be like, I wouldnever date a sober person.
I wouldn't even really be.
Friends with a sober person.
Yeah.
That's fucking weird.
And like you're not having any fun.
How are you supposed to what?
Like go on dates?
Exactly.
Or go on vacation or getmarried or like have fun.
Like how are you?
I didn't think it was possible.
No.
I also like.
Thought that that was super fucking lame.
Super lame.

(19:13):
I agree.
And especially if you'd like neverdrink, which by the way, I still am.
Like, how does that happen?
How does a person become born intothis world and then you never drink?
Or how?

Zoe (19:25):
Yeah.
Well, we should get, I knowthis guy who's never drank.
Oh, straight edge.
Great edge.
Um, there was a boxer who.
S like promoted himself as likebeing sober and like straight edge.
And this guy that I know grew uplike being inspired by this boxer,
and he never drank because of that.

(19:47):
Like he looked up to this guy.
Mm. And also he, there wasaddiction that ran into the family.
Yeah.
So he was scared to drink.
So I think that's a part of it too.
Like maybe my kids will neverdrink because they'll be terrified
to drink and that would be cool.
Honestly,

Heather (20:02):
I just don't.
Think, I mean, I don't know if therewas a, there was addiction in my family.
Mm-hmm.
I just didn't know about it.
Yeah.
There was eating disorders in my family.
I didn't really know.
Yeah.

Zoe (20:12):
I, I didn't know about the addiction that ran in my family.
I think I knew a little bit of aboutit, but if I knew about it more, maybe
it would be a different situation.
I don't, if might.
Dad was like a violent drunk.

Heather (20:22):
Yeah.
Or like a loser, like a deadbeat.
And that was like super obviousthat that was like the alcohol.
But

Zoe (20:29):
then maybe you would want to drink to like forget about
your fucking life, you know?
Well

Heather (20:32):
that's the other thing too.
Yeah.
I wanna drink abouteverything all the time.
Yeah.
Like I didn't drink 'cause I waslike had a terrible childhood.
I just drank 'cause I wanted to.
Yeah.
And I was depressed.
But yeah, even when it came to.
The health and wellness sphere, likewhen I was in college and like going
through my eating disorders and goingthrough alcohol and stuff like that.

(20:52):
I would look at health and wellnesslike that girl Kayla from like sweat.
Mm-hmm.
And just hate her.
Yeah.
Like I would never commentabout it, but I would hate her.
I'd be like, Ugh, you don't drink.
Yeah.
Because you don't want to.
Yeah.
You.
Your body's just like that.
You're thin and healthy and you have a sixpack just because that's the way you are.
Mm-hmm.
And I would hate that shit.
And then, so I would, I knowwhat that feels like to feel

(21:14):
like you're being attacked justbased on someone else's presence.
Well,

Zoe (21:19):
and my friend, who I'm now really close with this girl, but I used
to not like her when I was drinkingbecause she didn't drink like I did.
Right, right.
And so it's like, it'stotally flipped now.
Yeah.
It's.
People are not ready for it.
But the fact that people aregetting so upset about the stuff
that we're saying means thatwe're doing something interesting.

(21:40):
Yeah.
To take the time out of someone's dayand comment something mean or mm-hmm.
Negative about what we'resaying, that means that they
are getting impacted by it.
Yeah.
And they're thinking about whatthey're fucking doing, which is a step.
Yeah.
Maybe.
I don't know.
It is a step in like the rightdirection I think, you know, well, it,

Heather (21:58):
it's, it was very shocking at first, and I, it's very shocking.
We had all six of us at the cottagewere like talking about it on the
dock and being like, are we right?
Are we wrong?
Are we, and then, you know what?
After that I was like,okay, getting sober.
A lot of my sobriety.
I have to be empathy first.
Yeah, empathy first.
Or I'm gonna hit you with my car.

(22:19):
Yeah.
Like I'm very quick to trigger.
And so this belief of likeeveryone is doing the best with
what they can at any given time.
Mm-hmm.
I believe that.
Yeah.
And I think that if you go onlineand say something mean about us
that has nothing to do with alcohol.
Mm-hmm.
Or if it does whatever.
I really think that that's the best.
That's, that is the forefront emotion.

(22:40):
The forefront thing youwanted to do is like Yeah.
Be mean to these two girls onlinefor some sort of, well, yeah.
Emotional gain.
It's just like they are hurt

Zoe (22:49):
people too.
Yeah.
And.
They're sick.
Yeah.
Is what it is.
And like you have tolike, I feel bad for them.
Me's the only thing that we canlike look at this from Yeah.
Is like, oh, I feel sorry for you.
That you feel that way and,and I hope that you get better.
Yeah.
You know,

Heather (23:05):
and you're probably in the right place, honey.

Zoe (23:08):
Yeah.
Like, I'm glad that thiscame across your feed.

Heather (23:10):
Yeah.
And people being like, I am not.
Responsible for my spouse'sbad decisions with drinking.
I'm like, I think there's amiseducation around drinking and
I think that, yeah, I think thatmaybe you should listen to the pod.
Yeah.

Zoe (23:25):
That maybe these like men who are commenting too are like.
These girls are so pretty.
What do they know?
You know what guys?
We're pretty and we're smart.

Heather (23:33):
Yeah.
And we were in the fucking gutter.
Yeah.
For years.
Years.
And you, when you go to thegutter, you know some things,
you see some things we might

Zoe (23:40):
not look like alcoholics or we might not look like we were in the gutter
because like, we're so beautiful now,but trust we look like shit before.
Insert picture of Heather.

Heather (23:52):
Please don't insert a picture of me.
That is the only people whoget those pictures are you.
When I send them to you as stickers.
I know, man.
I haven't even showed theperson that I'm involved with.
I don't think you have to.
I don't think I should.
Yeah.
And you can't show your boyfriend.
I say I haven't.
I need him to think he, Ineed him to think I'm hot.

Zoe (24:07):
Yeah.
It's very interesting.
I, we forget, right?
Because we're sober now.
We've, we've been sober for a while.
Mm-hmm.
And like this has beenour life now for years.
Yeah.
I forget how drinking is, is the norm.
Yeah.
You know, like I forget that my friendyesterday, she was like, oh, like

(24:31):
let me, we should go to the bathroomto take a shot to my other friend.
And I was like, why are you goingto the bathroom to take a shot?
Just take a shot.
We're in the park.
Oh yeah.
And she was like.
I just didn't wanna take it in frontof you and I was like, it's fine.
Like don't, yeah.
Don't drink in the bathroom likeyou're doing drugs or something.
Yeah.
Also

Heather (24:50):
just like ask me.
Yeah, just ask.
Because I don't want youhiding your alcohol either.
Yeah.
Like that's not a good bar.
That's weird.
It's not good.
Yeah.
It's not helpful for anybody.
Yeah.
I'm gonna think about alcohol as much oras little as I will if you're drinking.
Yeah.

Zoe (25:03):
It was just that.
That was a really interesting thingthat I know she was trying to do it.
Yeah.
'cause like she cares aboutme, but I'm like, yeah.
You don't have to go to the bathroomto take a, it's kinda, yeah.
It's actually kind of, it's sweet.
It's, it's just

Heather (25:15):
like now we're overcompensating.
Yeah, exactly.
I like it.
Also, I love, oh God, I love to take shots

Zoe (25:21):
at the park.
Fuck.
Yeah.
It looked fun.

Heather (25:24):
Yeah.
But you know what?
I honestly love more than that.
I love to get home and get into my bed.
Bed and drift off calmlywith none of that.
Yeah.
Stuff going on.
It's nice.
Yeah.
You know what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you at all think that.
The, that the sobriety of it mm-hmm.

(25:44):
Is more triggering than.
The addiction of it.
What I mean is likehearing the word sobriety.
Yeah.
Do you think that's more triggeringto people than addiction?

Zoe (25:56):
I think so.
If we were just like talking about beingalcoholics and how we drink so much, I
think people would kind of love that.
Yeah.
You know, I think the factthat we overcame this mm-hmm.
And that we're sober now is the partthat's triggering for these people.
That's a good point.
'cause they're like, oh my god.
I don't wanna think that this is possible.
Yeah.
'cause I'm not ready to do this yet.

Heather (26:16):
Well, and what you just said of like, this is a thing we overcame.
Yeah.
I think that piece of like, this isa thing that people have to overcome.
Yeah.
Because it's inherently detrimental.
Mm-hmm.
That's hard for people.
Yeah.
You know what it seemed like tome when we were getting bombarded,
it felt very much like I said.
We should have gun reform.
Yeah.
And everyone was like,they're gonna take our guns.

(26:38):
And you're like, whoa.
I literally just don't want, well,I think it's like they felt like
they're gonna take our alcohol away.
Yeah.
I'm like, I just don'twant school shootings.
We don't give a fuck.
Yeah.
If, if we're not gonna take your alcohol.
We're women, we can't do anything.
It's like you, like, I mean, forlike a conglomerate like that.
Mm-hmm.
No.
Yeah.
We just want people toget sober if they need to.

Zoe (26:57):
If they need to, if they're looking for a place to come.
Mm-hmm.
To feel like mm-hmm.
They belong and to feel like they canrelate to someone finally, because
no one is talking about this shit.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like hang out with us.
I also wonder, he's over with

Heather (27:14):
us, the addiction piece of it.
We know addiction.
Most of us know addiction to be like,you know, meth on the street, on the
street, no teeth really not doing well.
Very specific vibe going on.
Yeah.

Zoe (27:27):
And the fact that you can be like alcoholics, addicts.
Be like.
We come from great families.
Mm-hmm.
And nothing was inherently wrong with us.
No.
But it can happen to anyone.
And I think that's alsowhat might scare people too.
Like, oh, I didn't think I was analcoholic because I am such a good

(27:48):
person from a great household.
Yeah.
I just drink a little bit too much,but that doesn't mean I'm an alcoholic.

Heather (27:53):
Yeah.
And then I wonder if the shamewith fat is even more because
like, I think so I, I definitely.
Felt like I had to justifybeing an alcoholic.
Mm-hmm.
Even when I went to

Zoe (28:02):
rehab.
Yeah.
Same.
I was like, oh, I'm not asbad as everyone else here.
Like, I don't belong here.

Heather (28:07):
Yeah.
Even like when I went, my counselorwas like, when I first met him, and he
was like, how much are you drinking?
And I was like, oh, I'mdrinking all day every day.
Mm-hmm.
And he's like all day, like, yeah.
Even in the morning.
And I, I was like, well.
No.
I mean, I start Yes.
In the morning, like I felt like, Ifelt like I had to craft my addiction.

(28:29):
Yeah.
Which is delusional.
If you feel like you have to craftyour addiction to make a story,
you're an addict to go to rehab.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
But I did feel like I had to justify it.
If someone came in and they were like, oh.
Like my rehab boyfriend.
It's like you had aterrible life growing up.
Mm-hmm.
Like I would drink too.
Yeah.
You know, I didn't have that.
So it doesn't feel, that doesn't mean

Zoe (28:49):
that you're a better alcoholic than another person.
Well, it also

Heather (28:53):
doesn't mean that you're not gonna become an alcoholic.
Yeah.
It's just like, I felt the shame oflike, oh fuck, why am I an addict?
Yeah.
This person has been through.
Abuse.
Yeah.
And bullshit and poverty.
So that makes sense.
I haven't, so what the fuck iswrong with my privileged ass where
I had to go and get fucked upall the time and couldn't stop.
Like, there is a shame in that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, but addiction justreally doesn't discriminate.

Zoe (29:16):
It doesn't, it can happen to anybody.
And I think that's another reason whythese people are getting upset in the
comments because I guess, I guess maybethey're scared that it has happened to
them, but they don't wanna look at it.
Yeah.

Heather (29:29):
Yeah.
And I think taking things awayfrom anybody or like yeah.
You know, offering a tool of apotential way to make your life
better by, by means of takingaway alcohol is so, I don't know.
It just, it's obviously

Zoe (29:44):
so jarring.
Well, it would be jarring to metoo, like if I was still in it.
So like I totally get it.
I get why you're.
Why it's getting rage out of you.
Yeah.
You know, like I totally,I I would've been there.

Heather (29:56):
Honestly, though, get

Zoe (29:58):
your

Heather (29:58):
fucking rage out.
Get

Zoe (29:59):
your

Heather (29:59):
rage out.
Get your rage

Zoe (29:59):
out.
Comment, call us whatever you want.
Yeah.
In the comments, you know, like,honestly, we, we can handle it.
We're sober.
We can

Heather (30:06):
handle anything.
Someone was asking me, Emma, yeah.
Was asking me friend of the pod,um, if like, you know, comments,
appearance based bother me.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, well, I haven't had one.
Personally, but I was like, you know what?
Trying to put myself in that situation.
I'm like, yeah, Iprobably should be upset.

(30:27):
But I also know myself so deeply.
Yeah.
I hate, hated myself and my body.
Yeah.
And I was meaner tomyself than anybody else.
Yeah.
And anybody I genuinelythink anyone could be.
Mm-hmm.
Like if you sat here for 12 hoursand said the meanest fucking
things to me, I think I'd be like.
Heard it babe.
Heard it, babe.
Next.
Yeah.
Like I used to look at myself in themirror and be like, honestly, fuck you.

(30:50):
You should kill yourself.
I don't know why you're still here.
And also you're a loser.
Yeah.
Because you can't fucking killyourself because you're not courageous.

Zoe (30:57):
Crazy.

Heather (30:58):
So.

Zoe (30:59):
I don't think I ever like looked at myself like I was ugly or I think
I just hated who I was inside more.

Heather (31:06):
Yeah.

Zoe (31:07):
I didn't really care about the external as much.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, we've got somecomments calling me a three,
but there was one, there wasone meaner comment than that.
Did you delete it?
I deleted it.
Okay.
'cause I don't, I don'tknow what it even said.
Like, I don't remember what it said.
Okay.
I read it once and I was like,that is way too fucking mean.

(31:28):
I can't, I don't want this justrandomly in the comment section.
Yeah.
Like, it was just that mean that Ididn't even wanna reread it ever again.
Yeah.
I didn't want it in my head.
I just deleted it likenothing fucking happened.
Good.
And yeah, I couldn't tell you what itsaid, but it was just like meaner than,

Heather (31:46):
yeah.

Zoe (31:47):
I needed to see.

Heather (31:48):
Well, yeah, and I think we were talking about that too, like are
we gonna be people who delete commentsand it's like, okay, this is a sobriety,
sobriety mental health podcast.
I want anybody listening to this Yeah.
Or coming to our page to feel safe enough.
Yeah.
To comment or post or like, or something.
Yeah.
And, and you can disagreewith us, that's fine.
But like, I think there's a certain

Zoe (32:08):
line where it's like, if you're being that mean I don't
want it, I'm gonna delete it.

Heather (32:13):
And I don't want sober people coming to our page and
looking at it and seeing mean

Zoe (32:17):
shit.
Yeah.
Oh, that's like hate.
That's too much.

Heather (32:20):
Yeah.
What if they say, oh, love this.
Or like, oh, I relate to this.
Are you gonna get like, you know, tiny Timbeing like, yeah, but you're a fat bitch.
Yeah.
And you're like, go back to the gut.
Are you fat bitch?
I know.
And I'm like.
Who invited Tim?
Literally get Tim outta the comments.
Well, there was a guy that commentedsomething mean on Instagram,
and I went to his profile andhe's in Narcotics Anonymous.

(32:44):
He's a weird man.
And I was like, homie,homie, you're a junkie.
Yeah, you're one of us.

Zoe (32:51):
It's weird.
I don't think he, I don't think alot of people like seeing pretty
girls talk about being sober.
I think that's another part of it.
Like if we were like maybe like.
Below average woman.
Yeah.
And maybe it would be different as well.

Heather (33:04):
Well, yeah, I think just like talking about this subject, I'm
so surprised at how Pull, I knew itwas gonna be a little bit polarizing,
but I didn't know we were gonnahit the Incel community so hard.

Zoe (33:13):
I mean, it's a good thing that.
This is happening.
Yeah.
It means that it means thatwe're doing something right.
And also like all the good messagesthat we've been getting, like people
being like, I am this many days sober.
Oh my God.
I'm just, I like am looking.
I'm looking up to you guys.
I relate to you guys.
You guys like are amazing.
Whatever.
Keep doing what you're doing.
That is so special.

(33:34):
And I would get like, you can callme whatever the fuck you want.
As long as those peopleare reaching out to us.
Yeah.
Like that's all that matters

Heather (33:41):
if like.
Zoe and I were in trash.
We were literally living in a trash bin.
And you, I was sleeping in myown pee every single night.
That's

Zoe (33:49):
exactly right.

Heather (33:50):
And every single night I was sleeping in

Zoe (33:52):
my own pee.

Heather (33:52):
Yeah.
And I was mostly sleeping on thebathroom floor, just throwing
up all over the porcelain.

Zoe (33:56):
You're sleeping, you are.
You're sleeping in your throw up.
And I was sleeping in my pee.
Gorgeous girls.
And now you're sober and amazing.

Heather (34:05):
Take that.
I watched this YouTube channel.
Actually, I think it's likereally controversial now.
I think the Mark Lada or whatever, thehost of it, I think that he might be
not great, but that's not the point.
Basically he is in on SkidRow and he talks to, he like
brings people in for interviews.
Like, I

Zoe (34:24):
don't like that.
I don't like that.
I've seen those things on TikTok before.
Okay.
I don't like when people areinterviewing someone fucked up.
Okay.
'cause that doesn't seem like they have

Heather (34:35):
autonomy.

Zoe (34:35):
Autonomy over what they're saying.
'cause they're fucked up.

Heather (34:38):
Consent.

Zoe (34:39):
Consent is off out the window.
Same with like our, whendid we give consent?
When we were fucked up to get, have sex?
No.
No.
If you're that fuckedup, that's not consent.
There's no line.

Heather (34:50):
And I guess like the point is to like show the world what's
happening and like that addiction isreal and poverty is real and that,
but it's like putting them down.
It's like exploit, exploitive.
It's low.
You're,

Zoe (35:02):
the lens is down on these people and it shouldn't be like, yeah.
That could happen to anybody.
That could have happened to us.
Like that doesn't mean that we'rebetter or worse than these people.

Heather (35:12):
No.
And I'm wondering, is there a better way?
Like is there, would there be a betterway, should we not do it at all?
I think we should be interviewing

Zoe (35:18):
people that were on Skid Row.
Yeah.
That are sober now.
Yeah.
Like there's lots of people whomake it out of that, that are sober.
Yeah.
It's not, just because you're on Skid Rowdoesn't mean you're on skid row forever.
There's a lot of people I knowa lot of people who lived on the
street who are sober now a lot.

Heather (35:32):
Yeah, I do think like, and and, and maybe it's not right.
Maybe it's not autonomous and consensual.
That's probably very true.
Not everybody gets sober.
Yeah.
That's not the trajectory for everyone.
That's not everyone's not everyone.
I know.
It's like it's not everyone's goal.
No, no.
But it's also like, I know he's like, ifyou wanna get sober, you can get sober.
Yeah.
It's not that black and white becauselike my dad says stuff like that too.

(35:52):
Just like, get 'em cleaned up,take 'em off the street, and
you're like, right, but that's not.
Possible.
Yeah, it's not possible.
So maybe it is important to, I think

Zoe (36:02):
anyone can get sober if you're on the street or not.
If you want, if you trulywant it, yeah, you can get it.
Mm-hmm.
But I just don't think thatthat clicks in for some people.
Yeah.
And that's the unfortunate partof like when people die, like
it just didn't click for them.
And that is sad.

Heather (36:19):
It wouldn't click for me if I was on the street either.
Like it was not, it wasn't.
It could.
It could have, but it, it wasn'tclicking for me when I was living
in my like, beautiful apartment.
Yeah.
I, I think it's really hard, and Ijust think those stories are important.
It's like drugs and alcohol hit usall very different, and some people
are trapped in it forever and it seemslike they can't get out and it's like,

(36:40):
not because they're lazy or becausethey're stupid or because of whatever.
It's just a thing that happenedto them for whatever reason.
Yeah, if you can get out, get out.
But if you can't, that's true too.
Yeah.
And valid.
Yeah.
You know.

Zoe (36:54):
Yeah.
I don't know.
It seems like that just shouldn'tbe the type of people that
we should be interviewing.
Sure.
Like I do see some interviews on TikTok ofpeople interviewing people who are sober.
Mm-hmm.
And were like crazy.
Yeah.
Before and like that's the type ofinspiring videos I would rather see than.
Seeing a person strung out on drugs.

(37:16):
Totally.
Talking about getting raped, you know?

Heather (37:18):
Yeah.
Sex workers, like underage sex workers.
Mm-hmm.
I always find that one.
I know.
I'm like, Ooh, what's happening?

Zoe (37:24):
That's, can we not be exploiting these people?
Please.

Heather (37:27):
Yeah.
It's, um, it, it's interesting'cause I also, I think that it is
a little bit more of a, and I don'twanna use this word out of turn, but
it feels a little fetishy mm-hmm.
To like watch these stories.
And it's just sadness.
Yeah.
It's like just drugs.
It's the bottom of the barrel.
It's like the worst thingthat can happen to a person.
Really?
Mm-hmm.
And there's not often follow through.

(37:47):
No.
It's not like, like he's going back andbeing like, oh, now this person is sober.
Like that's not the point.
The point is just to belike everyday people.
Everyday lives.
Yeah.
But I think we see a lot of addictionand we've known what addiction is.

Zoe (37:58):
We don't see a lot of sobriety.

Heather (37:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We don't see a lot of.
People talking aboutwhat happened to them.
Yeah.
And now we're sober andchatting about being sober.
I agree.
I think people are attracted to thedown dirty addiction because they are,
especially fentanyl and meth becausea lot of people aren't doing that.
Yeah.
They're just drinking or they'rejust doing weed or just doing coke

Zoe (38:19):
for

Heather (38:19):
now, and it feels so separate from them.
Yeah.
So I think that addiction.
Is easier to digest forpeople than sobriety.
Yeah.
Because sobriety, it's like, oh fuck.
Now they've, now they're out on theother side and they're better than me.
Yeah.
Shit.
I a hundred percent agree.
Yeah.
I do think they should stop.
I do think so too.
Someone said that on one of his YouTubeor one of his like Instagrams or

(38:40):
something, it was like, this personis like straight up exploiting people.
Yeah.
And they're.
Young girls coming in ondrugs like this is crazy.
Yeah.
But what there's, you do,there's gotta be a better way.
Like

Zoe (38:50):
I think the better way is

Heather (38:51):
to be interviewing people who got sober.
Oh, sorry.
In terms of interviews.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just mean like of Skid Row and QueenStreet and it's, it's very interesting.
I think it's really easy to other addicts.
Yeah.
Except when you forget that a dependencyon alcohol is also an addiction.
Yeah.
People forget.

Zoe (39:12):
There's so many smaller addictions that are out there.
It doesn't have to be likecrack heads on the street.

Heather (39:18):
No.
And speaking of which, what is theline between like casual drinking
and a dependency and addiction?
Mm-hmm.
Because you sent me somethinginteresting yesterday.
Yeah.
About the big book.
Actually I have it.
The big book of

Zoe (39:31):
Alcoholics Anonymous.
Yeah.
So the big, we always talk about likethe type one addict, the type two
addict, and the type three addict.
Got it.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Like what the first one is justsomeone who can drink casually.
Moderate drinkers, these individualscan take or leave alcohol or quit
entirely if they choose hard drinkers.

(39:52):
These drinkers may experience somephysical and mental impairment
and potentially develop a physicaldependence, but still re retain
some control over their drinking.
Mm-hmm.
Alcoholics according to aa,alcoholics have no real choice
when it comes to drinking.
Once they start, they experiencea loss of control and require a
complete abstinence for recovery.

(40:12):
The big book highlights that Alcoholicsmind is obsessed with alcohol and
their body reacts with a craving.
When they can't, they can't control.

Heather (40:20):
Mm. Those are the three branches of.
Drinking.
Yeah.

Zoe (40:25):
In aa.
I think a lot of people, like whenthey come into the program mm-hmm.
Of like a, a CA, whatever.
They hope that they're the hard drinkers.
The middle one.
Yeah, the middle one.
Yeah.
They're like, yeah, I drinkstoo much, but I can quit.
I can quit if I want to.
Yeah.
And then they go out and they keepdrinking and they're like, ah.
I think I'm still a hard drinker though.
I don't think I'm a real alcoholic.

Heather (40:45):
Yeah.

Zoe (40:45):
And it takes him a couple times to come and admit.
To themselves because the firststep of AA is admitting that
you are powerless over alcohol.

Heather (40:52):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (40:53):
Um.
It takes 'em a little bit to admitthat they are real alcoholic.
I'm fortunate enough to have gone to rehaband I got to figure that out in rehab.
Yeah.
Instead of going in and out, in and out.
In and out.

Heather (41:04):
Yeah.

Zoe (41:05):
Yeah,

Heather (41:05):
yeah.
Rehab's so good for that.
Yeah.
It's like a bunch of people tellingyou like, you have a problem.
These are all the reasonsthat you should be here.
You don't have to play that game withyourself of like, do I have a problem?
Can I still drink?
They're like, no, you're gonna go to jail.
Yeah.
Um, I feel like it's funny to look atthis and be like, moderate drinkers.
Can take or leave alcohol.
I'm like, yeah, okay.
So that was me freshman year of college.

(41:26):
Mm-hmm.
Because my eating disorder was so badthat alcohol was just not top of mind.
Yeah.
And then I moved into hard drinkingafter my eating disorder stopped.
Mm-hmm.
And then it's like, it just keeps going.
Yeah.
And I think I just jumped in alcoholic.
Yeah, I totally did.
I think you did too, becausethere was, I think like.
The fear.
Ba The fear, yeah.

(41:47):
That's something you're missing.
Yeah.
Also, I realize I do that when Italk, I go, it's like it's cute.
What I learned in rehab, which Idon't take, I didn't take away, is
like my counselor would be like,why are you answering questions
if you don't know the answer?
I was like, I don't know.
I, I've been, I don't know.
He like asked me a question,like, how are you feeling?

(42:08):
And I was like, oh, you know, da.
He's like, why don't you like take fiveseconds, breathe and think about what
you're, what you're gonna gonna say.
Because I would just, and I do thatstill, where I'll just like have a point
and I start talking about it and I go.
I don't know what we're doing withthat, where that totally fine babe.
But it is like, I do need tothink a little bit, but I do.
Um,

Zoe (42:27):
yeah, but I think that, um, what was I

Heather (42:29):
saying before?
If you

Zoe (42:30):
think that you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic.
That's like my thought around that.
Mm-hmm.
It's like if you're questioning it, thenlike you are, and like you should just.
Stop.
Yeah, everything.
And like save yourself the in and out.
Save yourself the trying of control.
'cause you can't, you can't do it.

(42:52):
Yeah.
I knew someone too that waslike in and out of meetings.
Mm-hmm.
And I think they wereeven sober for a bit.
And um, they went to rehab.
Even though they were two months sober,they went to like get the full experience.
Oh

Heather (43:05):
my god.
I know.
So like, if you're sober,you can go to rehab still.
Well, I think about it sometimes like.
Because we know as addicts that, um,and we know from rehab, I don't know
what you, what you do in aa, butum, we know like relapse behavior.
Yeah.
Addictive behavior that comesbefore the actual physical relapse
of like taking a substance.
Mm-hmm.

(43:25):
So like you're isolating or you'reirritated, or you're not going to
therapy or you're just, things arechanging and you're not doing the work.
Mm-hmm.
You jumped into hard drinking.
Yeah.
The fear.
I didn't, I had so much fear.
I think it's 'cause yourparents made you fearful.
Yeah, they did.
They told us that we were allergicand I was already a hypochondriac.
I was already OCD.

(43:46):
I was flicking the lightswitch all the time.
I was like.
Thinking I was dying always.
Mm-hmm.
That held me back from jumping full in.
If I had thought, if I didn'thave that fear, I would've
drank with my friends earlier.
'cause my friends were drinking around me.
I was afraid.
Yeah.
So that is, I think, the thingthat held, held me back and
I went through all of these.
Mm-hmm.
If I had just started harddrinking, maybe I wouldn't have

(44:08):
gone through the eating disorder.
We could have skipped right overthat probably, but then I probably
would've been as big as the house

Zoe (44:13):
earlier.
Um, I don't know.
You could have been like in.
A bad eating disorder and drinking,and that could have been crazy.

Heather (44:23):
The line between like casual drinking, binge drinking,
full dependency, full addiction.
Yeah, I think there's some.
Confusion.
And I have some confusion too,because when I meet people who just
like drank too much and then they'relike, and now I don't drink anymore.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the story.
I'm like, where's the trauma?

Zoe (44:42):
Where is the thing?
Well, that's like the hard drinker, right?
Yeah.
That's like not the true alcoholic.
Okay.
Explain that to me.
The hard drinker can stop.

Heather (44:50):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (44:51):
When they need to.

Heather (44:52):
Okay.

Zoe (44:53):
Like fully stop.
Yeah.
Okay.
The alcoholic cannot.

Heather (44:56):
Well, 'cause I wonder about the people that are like, oh, I have to
crack a beer at the end of a work day.
Yeah.
I have to have a glass ofwine at the end of a day.
You are not.
You're a hard drinker.
You're a hard drinker.
You're a drinker.
You're dependent on it.
Yeah.
You're not an our situationwhere you're going out and
fucking fucking up your life if

Zoe (45:16):
you're not fucking up your life.
Yeah.
Like you don't need to stop becausethere's not nothing to stop for.
You know what I mean?

Heather (45:23):
Yeah.
But I mean.
But in that same vein though,you're not in our situation, but
you should still look at yourrelationship with alcohol because Yes.
If you need to do somethingat the end of the day, yeah.
That involves, you know,changing your brain and taking
yourself out of your body.
Mm-hmm.
For a little bit and numbing some stuff.
You have a dependency on it.

(45:44):
That's part of the spectrum.
Yeah, a hundred

Zoe (45:46):
percent.
It is.
But like they don't want to stop that.
No.
And they think that theydon't have to stop that.
Yeah.

Heather (45:51):
Yeah.
And you might not have to.
I mean, not everybody has to, but mm-hmm.
I think that the idea that having atwo, a couple glasses of wine every
single night, and that's just normal.
I think maybe that's not normal.
And I think a lot of people havea dependency and they're not.
Realizing it.
Yeah.
Well, and

Zoe (46:06):
that's another thing that we're trying to like break.
Mm-hmm.
Like the norm is notdrinking every single day.
Yeah.
At the end of the workday.
It's just, it's not, yeah.
The norm is not taking atraveler for a walk, you know?
Right.
That's not the norm.

Heather (46:18):
When I got sober, I would go out with people, my
friends or guys or whatever.
Well, guys are still drinking, butmy friends and they wouldn't drink.
Mm. And I would, and they're not sober.
And I would be like,guys, like, it's okay.
Yeah.
You can drink.
And um, one of my friends was like.
No, we don't need to drink.
Yeah.
We don't need to go todinner and have a drink.

(46:39):
Yeah.
And that confused the fuck outta me.
Yeah.
'cause I was like, wait, what?
Yeah.
Isn't everybody drinking all the time?
Yeah.
Like I feel like going out with yourfriends to dinner is an excuse to drink.
Not in your house, but I guess peoplehave different operating systems and
they're like, we don't drink every night.
I'm like.
And

Zoe (46:55):
that's where we differ

Heather (46:56):
and that

Zoe (46:56):
is where we differ.
And that's confusing to me.
Yeah.
Well my friends drink every dinner.

Heather (47:00):
Yeah.

Zoe (47:01):
So we have different friends.
And that's hard drinkers.
And you have moderate friend drinkers?
I have moderate friend drinkers.

Heather (47:07):
Well, yeah.
'cause some of my friendsdrank really hard with me.
Yeah.
But then I stopped.
But it's because

Zoe (47:11):
you were forcing them to drink.

Heather (47:12):
Yeah.
And like one of my friends islike now like pregnant and married
and doesn't drink like that.
And I'm like.
And that's

Zoe (47:18):
what normal people do.
Right?
Normal people drink alot when they're young.
Yeah.
And then they get marriedand they stop drinking.

Heather (47:23):
But I don't get that.
Yeah.
I don't get that.
I don't get how alcohol, and Iguess that's the addiction, but
it, like, it takes some people.
So why are me and Jody drinkingthe same amount in college?
Mm-hmm.
And now you're married with akid and you're fine to have a, a
glass of wine every now and then.
And I'm like, where is the vodka?

(47:43):
I'm going in the closet.
Yeah.
To wrap this up.

Zoe (47:46):
To wrap it up,

Heather (47:47):
ladies and gentlemen,

Zoe (47:49):
I think, don't comment on my appearance.
Appearance,

Heather (47:53):
yeah.
Because then my boyfriend sends her sneakylittle text messages without me knowing
about how beautiful and sexy she is.
And then I go, he said, I know youknow you're a 10, but did he say that?
Aw, he said that.

Zoe (48:05):
So sweet.
That's nice.
Yeah.

Heather (48:07):
That's really nice.
Mm-hmm.
He's trying to fuck my friends.
Um, uh, okay.
We did have a big week withsocial media, um, which I'm glad
you're feeling fine about it now.

Zoe (48:20):
Yeah, no, I'm feeling fine.
It was just like jarring.
I didn't, we didn't expect it, butlike obviously we should have, um,
I was talking to a lot of my friendsabout it and they're like, yeah, but
like, you're doing something right.
Like people only comment mean thingsif you're doing something right.
Yeah.
Engagement is good.
Engagement, like knowing how many people.

(48:42):
We are affecting in a good way as well.
Like is amazing and

Heather (48:48):
yeah, I agree.
I wouldn't

Zoe (48:49):
change it for the world.
No.
Oh my God, I'm so happywe're doing it together.

Heather (48:53):
I know.
I love you.
I love you.
I'm so glad we're friends.
Same.
What would we, what about I?
You'd be fine.
What would I do?

Zoe (48:59):
No, like literally, why did it take us so long to be such close friends?
I was a big girl and Iwas afraid to go outside.
Yeah.
And I'm so proud of you for gettingoutside and being my friend.

Heather (49:10):
Yeah.
The comments keep commenting, keep coming,you know, you're just just exposed to us.
Your mental illnesses.
Yeah.
And your anger issues.
All of that is all part of sobriety.
However, overwhelminglythe comments were from men.
Yeah.
That is clear.
And um, that's okay.

(49:31):
The thing about that.
After all the bullshit and allthe mean things and all the
like calming ourselves down.
Think what it shows me if we're reallygonna put our empathy hats on, is
that men are suffering in silence.
Yeah.

(49:52):
On the internet, but suffering in silence.
I think that just the polarizationof this topic and this conversation.
I, I, I, I think resistancecomes from not being able to
express your feelings around it.

Zoe (50:11):
It's just such like a common thing, like men don't talk about their problems.
Yeah.
And men have a beer every single night.
It's the stereotype and it is true.
It's true.

Heather (50:22):
And I know, like I, you know, like I, my whole
moral anger is that I hate men.
Mm-hmm.
Like I don't hate all men, whatever, but.
It's not true.
I don't hate all men.
I do, but this, but

Zoe (50:33):
these men commenting make me believe it again.
Yeah, yeah.
But these men, but it's also like comingback to it, they're just hurt men.
Yeah.
And yeah, it sucks because they can'ttalk about it with anybody else.
And so they're taking it out on us.
That's what they do.
And they probably take it out on theirgirlfriends and their wives as well.

Heather (50:48):
Yeah.

Zoe (50:49):
So it's like, yeah.
It's just like that's life and.
If you're a man, talkabout it with another man.
Be

Heather (50:58):
Yeah, but I think, but that's like the system
we've set up for men, right?
Like women.
Yes.
Like men are like the, you know,they're the, the leading power.
But women have this like reallyamazing privilege that is friendship
and female friendships and likeoverwhelmingly women are able to
express themselves to each other.

(51:19):
More so than men, but we train that.
Mm-hmm.
Men are not allowed to cry or saytheir feelings or they're gay.
Yeah.
And like what's worse than being gay?
Being a pussy or being

Zoe (51:29):
a girl.
But I also think that now with thisnew generation, it won't be like that.
Yeah.
Like these are.
People that are commenting are thelast generation that will be like that.
I think maybe that's what I would hope.
I mean, well a lot of them, like I'msure the people having babies in, but
fuck nowhere aren't instilling thaton their baby, like on their kids.

(51:50):
Well,

Heather (51:50):
and I think that's where we start to get a little confused.
Too often I think thateverybody thinks like me.
Yeah.
Like I just am like we'reall learning together.
We're all growing together.
But even in the city, it's likethe idea of sobriety and mocktails.
Abstinence from drinking it, it makes moresense in this like metropolitan place.
Yeah.
But if you're a six pack after work kindof person who doesn't live in the city

(52:14):
and you can't just like walk to seven11, like it's just not as normalized.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
I actually don't know.
I would like to think thatstereotypes of men and women will
be more muddled and will be less.
Again, polarizing.
Mm-hmm.
With the next generation.
But I don't really know.
I would hope, and I would also hope thatthat would mean that more men are able

(52:39):
to go to therapy and ask for therapy.
Yeah.
Ask for help, you know,because, um, it creates rage.

Zoe (52:47):
Yeah.
And it makes sense like.
The men in our comments like,yeah, it makes sense why mm-hmm.
They can't talk to anybody about it.
Yeah.
You know?
And it makes sense why a lot of thesewhite men are rageful and abusive.
Yeah.
Like we see it in our comments now.
Like, we understand it,

Heather (53:02):
we see it.
We also were, it, yeah.
We were like super aggressiveand mean and like to ourselves
or like internal thoughts.
Yeah.
Like very hateful.
I was very hateful towards my boyfriends.
Very hateful.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
To everything.
Yeah.
And I, I, I get it.
And honestly like we see you.
Yeah.
Like.

Zoe (53:19):
I was there.
Don't worry like it.
It's nothing to be ashamed of as long asyou recognize it and want to move forward.

Heather (53:27):
Yeah.
We get it.
Sometimes being mean to girlson the internet is like all,
you have to feel powerful.
Yeah.
And it's just what youneed to do in the moment.
Yeah.
So we get it.
We see you.
Do you think that drinking,like being sober for men, do
you think that challenges likesocietal norms, like male norms.

(53:49):
Of course, yeah.
In my opinion.
When I see someone, like my person I'mwith and your person, it's like they're
sober and I'm like, that's so fucking hot.

Zoe (53:59):
Maybe it is, but like to them I'm sure it wasn't like that.
Like they had to likegrow into that, you know?
Yeah.
So to

Heather (54:06):
me that feels like it's coming from the men

Zoe (54:07):
that Yeah, it is.
Well, a lot of stuff that we internallycomes from other women thinking that the
men don't, the men don't want someoneto be like, stick thin, you know?
Yeah.
That's what we internalizeon ourselves as other women.
That's true.
That the men are the same.

Heather (54:22):
Yeah.
Yeah, because I, I saw, I sawsomething about like, how, like
it's our, you know, it's our right.
We don't have to stop, like, andI'm just like, I wonder if it feels
extra, extra shameful for men.
It's like, this is your thing.
You're supposed to be able to do drink.
Well, I think it also,

Zoe (54:39):
it felt extra bad for me too, because I was like, I am
supposed to be the girl who goesout and has the life of the party.
Mm-hmm.
Like that's my whole shtick.
Yeah.
As a woman.

Heather (54:50):
Yeah.

Zoe (54:50):
Like I am.
I don't have anything else.
Yeah.
It's like an

Heather (54:53):
identity thing.

Zoe (54:54):
Yeah.
And you're supposed to be able togo out and have fun as girls too,
because you're supposed to be ableto like, take a shot with your man.
Yeah.

Heather (55:00):
Well you're, it's the same thing.
You're supposed to be ableto handle your alcohol.
Yeah.
And when men can't, eventhough it's more widely s.
Acceptable for men to be addicts.
Yeah.
I mean, there's way more men Yeah.
In AA than there are women.
Yeah.
There's way more men's groupsand there are women's groups.
Men are overwhelmingly strugglingwith addiction and mental health.
Yeah.
More so than women.
Women just have theability to talk about it.

(55:22):
Yeah.
And I, I, I think that's very interestingand I think it's hot when guys are sober.
Duh.
So it's not like a weak thing.
No, it's, it's evolved.
I see

Zoe (55:33):
it as a strength.
Men or women.
Yeah, whatever you are.
Yeah.
If you're sober, you're so fucking strong.
Yeah.
You came over that overcame that.
It's amazing.
And it's hard to think that before youget sober, you think that you're weak and
that you have to get sober because you'reweak and it's the complete opposite.
You can get through it.

Heather (55:53):
Yeah.
And then you can have like latenight conversations sober with your
girlfriend and your dick gets hard.
Yeah, it's nice.
It's nice.
Okay.
Well.
I'm proud of you.
I'm proud of you.
Stay

Zoe (56:04):
sober.
Bye

Heather (56:05):
bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl Un Drunk.
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTokat Girl Un Drunk podcast and or send
me an email at [e-mail].
I have this fantasy that the guythat works at the boxing gym is gonna

(56:26):
like watch me practicing my uppercuts and come over to me and be like.
I, I could take you all the way.
Ooh.
I keep having that, that, that,that white guy like a dream.
Yeah.
I'm like, what?
Like I just have this fuckingfeeling in the same way.
Yeah.
That when I walk by the, the,the lesbian flag football.
Yeah.
I just, I'm hoping that someonethrows, throws that they recruit you.
Yeah.

(56:46):
Like, I'm like, someone throw a rogueball, I'm gonna catch it and then
you're gonna make it fingertips up.
Hands open, cradle.
I'm gonna catch it.
And they're gonna be like,are you, you're a star.
Yeah.
And they're gonna be like, are you gay?
And I'm gonna say.
I'm bisexual.