Stranger in a Car

Heather and Zoe sip Edna’s Palomas, unpack the weird world of mindful drinking apps, and get real about control, relapse, and rehab diaries. Then they dive into Uber’s shocking safety record and late-night rides that could’ve gone very wrong.

This episode, with timestamps and extras, is available here. 

Grab your fav NA bevvie and hit subscribe. Episodes every Wednesday. Proud of you! 💕

Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.

(00:26):
Okay, everybody.
We have new

Zoe (00:27):
Bevies today.
Edna's a woman's name on

Heather (00:32):
a can.
Who would've thought?
Love it.
Edna's.
This is from Vancouver.
Can't v Vancouver on Canada.
Vancouver.
Vancouver, Canada, Vancouver,

Zoe (00:43):
Alberta.
No.
Vancouver.
British Columbia.
Oh yeah.
It took me a second to like, I know it'snot that, I dunno what it's going back to.
The geography is crazy.

Heather (00:55):
It, it is a reoccurring theme, not only in this podcast, but in my life.
So this is Edna's from Vancouver,British Columbia, Canada.
We love a Canadian girl.
Super cute bottle, too cute.
Very cute.
Bottle shaped like a can.

Zoe (01:12):
What

Heather (01:12):
other flavors

Zoe (01:13):
do they

Heather (01:13):
have?
Okay, so let me tell you, I think I

Zoe (01:15):
saw

Heather (01:15):
a mojito

Zoe (01:16):
down there.

Heather (01:16):
Today we are sipping on Edna's Mocktails from Vancouver, Canada.
These, what we haveright now is the Paloma.
I love a Paloma.
Did you like a alcoholic?
Paloma?
I mean, I liked every sort of drink ever.
So, well that's the,that is the other thing.
Yeah.
I'm like, oh, I'll drink anything.
I don't actually know what I liked.
Yeah, I didn't know what alcohol I liked.
I just like, I didn't, I'm lookingat this now and it says tequila

(01:38):
extract, and I'm like, I did not know.
Oh, I knew Paloma.
I knew a Paloma was tequila.
I just knew it was pink.
They've got five flavors.
Okay.
Mojito.
Paloma Mule.
It's like a Moscow Mule.
Yeah.
Collins.
Is that a Tom Collins?
Tom Collins?
I don't know what that is.

Zoe (01:54):
I think it would be a Tom Collins.
Tom Collins.
I think that's like a whiskey thing.
Whiskey,

Heather (01:57):
yeah.
And a Smoky Mezcal.
Ooh, ooh.
A mezcal.
But do you like Smokey?
I think so.
You do?
Okay.
I, so I'm not sure if I likeSmokey, so we'll try that one too.
Yeah.
So all of these are meantto be served on ice cold.
It's, if you wanna try Edna's cocktails,go to edna's cocktails.com and use

(02:17):
the code Edna's 10 for 10% off.
10% off Mocktail

Zoe (02:21):
Summer.
Okay.
Wait, let's do it at the same time.
Yeah.
Oh.
Oh, it slips.

Heather (02:29):
Ooh.
Smells like summer, by the way.
It's nine 30.
Ooh.
I remember sometimes there's likedrinks and stuff that say like two
servings, and I'm like, well thenwhy would you hand it to me in this?
Not these, but yeah.
Where would you hand me for two people?
There's only one person.
Hey, cheers.
Cheers.
Thanks, Edna.

Zoe (02:52):
Mm. I wish I was by a pool.
I like that.
I wish we could record by my pool.

Heather (02:57):
Hey, wait, this is like one of my faves we've had so far.
Really?
All

Zoe (03:00):
the mocks.
It tastes really good.
Well, I love it.
Doesn't

Heather (03:03):
taste like

Zoe (03:03):
tequila a mocktail

Heather (03:05):
to me.
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (03:06):
You know?
Yeah.
Like it doesn't taste like tequila.
No,

Heather (03:08):
it's not like a bitter, there's nothing that's like, oh, oh yeah.
That's what it is.
Mm-hmm.
Like when they, you knowwhen they bamboozle me?
Mm-hmm.
With tequila and thekick is cayenne pepper.
That's crazy.

Zoe (03:18):
This is great.
It's really good.
How are you today, Heather?
Or hello?
On Drunkies.

Heather (03:24):
Oh my God.
Hi everyone.
Hi.
Welcome back.
Welcome back to Girl On Drunk Zoe.

Zoe (03:29):
Heather, how are you, babe?
I'm good.
Yeah.
I, um, I asked my work for Fridays,Friday mornings off so we could
have some stability for the podcast.
And it's currently Fridaymorning and here we are and it's
Friday morning and here we're

Heather (03:43):
so that, so proud of you.

Zoe (03:45):
It was, it, I was really anxious leading up to it.
Like I talked about it last week,but I was talking to the people
at the meeting this week about it.
'cause I was stillfeeling anxious even after

Both (03:58):
Yeah,

Zoe (03:58):
I got it.
Oh, and then, okay.
I realized that I think theanxiety stems from like thinking
that I don't deserve it.
Like I'm anxious to ask becauseI think I don't deserve it.
And even if I got the Friday mornings off,like I feel like I still don't deserve it.
So that's why I'm still anxious.
That's cool.
You know what means that,you know what I mean?

Heather (04:18):
I, I do know what you mean.
Yeah, I do.
It's almost similar to like,well if this feels right Yeah.
Getting a job.
Yeah.
Or a promotion and then beinglike, yeah, but I don't deserve it.
Yeah.
And it's like, well, they gave it toyou for a reason and it's Exactly.
Well,

Zoe (04:31):
I think also, like before I would just fuck up at work,
so I got fired instead of askingfor what I want, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
I would just be like, okay, well I'mjust gonna get drunk so that they have
to fire me because I have no otherreason and I don't deserve anything else.
Yeah.
You know?

Heather (04:46):
Yeah.

Zoe (04:47):
So I think that's where the anxiety stems from.
Yeah.

Heather (04:49):
And it's so, it's like so

Zoe (04:51):
new.
Yeah.
For you to

Heather (04:51):
be like, wait, I am an autonomous woman.
I can, I can ask for thingsI want and I do deserve

Zoe (04:57):
it.
Like, yeah.
That's the second thought.
But the first thought is,is that I don't deserve it.
Yeah.
So I think you just haveto like, that's a good

Heather (05:03):
thing

Zoe (05:03):
to

Heather (05:03):
notice.
Yeah.

Zoe (05:04):
I don't deserve this.
Mm-hmm.
Like I guess that was, yeah.
So I

Heather (05:07):
wonder going back in your life Yeah.
Like where that started for you?
Yeah.
Like where that like feeling undeserving.
Yeah.
Really started.
Was it an alcohol relatedthing or was it like before?
I'm sure it

Zoe (05:18):
was like something to do with my

Heather (05:20):
parents.

Zoe (05:21):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (05:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You get an idea in your headwhen you're a kid and somehow
that becomes I'm undeserving.
Yeah.
And I dunno, why

Zoe (05:27):
did I tell you that?
They used to tell me that when Iwas being like a bad girl, they
would be like, well, we're justgonna send you back to the Zoey.
The Zoey School.
Or Zoe Farm.
The Zoey farm, something like that.
And I'll just get another Zoe.

Heather (05:41):
Did you believe

Zoe (05:41):
that?
I really did.
Yeah.
I really did.
And that's, I think, traumatic for me.
It is

Heather (05:47):
scary.

Zoe (05:47):
Yeah.
Because it's like that's possible.
Like, I don't know, I'm a child.
It's possible to like, yeah,you go somewhere and then
you just don't come back.
And then I'm left with like strangersnot good because I wasn't a good girl.

Heather (05:58):
I know.
And like somehow that's like my fault.
No, I love

Zoe (06:00):
being called a good girl in the bedroom.
I wonder why.

Heather (06:03):
Damn.
Yeah.
Um, that's crazy.
Also, my mom used to threaten mysister by saying she's gonna send me

Zoe (06:11):
away.

Heather (06:12):
Yeah.
Like, and that's like the same thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like traumatizing my sister.
'cause it's like, you're bad and becauseyou're bad, we're gonna take your sister.
And she was like, my sister.

Zoe (06:22):
It's horrible.
Yeah.
Other than that, I'm good.
I'm going to Sarnia this weekendto gonna be warm to the fam.
It's gonna be warm.
Sunday's supposed to be alittle bit shitty, so I might
come back to the city early.
And then me and my boyfriendare going to the CNE on Monday,
which I'm so excited for.
It's gonna be so cute.
He's never gone.
I've never gone.
You've never gone.

(06:42):
I

Heather (06:43):
really, well, first of all, I've been, you hate crowds, so like hate.
Why would you go?
I hate, but I was alsodrunk for like a long time.
Yeah.
And so I just like was never gonnago outside in the hot, hot sun.

Zoe (06:51):
I, well, I think I used to go as a kid to the CNE every single year.
Yeah.
And then when I was drinking,no, I didn't go because.
I can't go anywhere when I'm drinking.
No.
And then I've been recently goingback since I've been sober every year.
So this will be my third year going.
I think I wanna go.
You should go.
I didn't know.
You've never been.
I've also never been to Wonderland.

(07:13):
We can go for Halloween Haunt.

Heather (07:15):
Yeah.
But what if there's a real scary man, areal serial killer, and he comes in, puts
a mask on, and then starts stabbing away.
And that is, and that ismy, what could happen?
That is the risk that that is therisk that the occupational hazard

Zoe (07:26):
and that's what's scary about it.

Heather (07:27):
Yeah.
Well, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
The thing that scares me isn'tthe, the ghosts and the goblins.
It's the real ones.
The men.
The men.
But I do worry about things like that,like the CNE, especially with, especially
with so much like I know we're in Canada,but political turmoil makes me very
nervous for people's mental states.
You can come and meet uson Monday if you want.
Okay.

(07:48):
I'll be wearing a big, um, suit with likea lot of padding in case anyone wants to
come through the barriers and run me down.
They will run me down.
You gotta get over your fears,

Zoe (07:59):
babe.
Together.

Heather (08:01):
I can't help it.
I was in the Boston bombings.
It's very hard for meto like get over things.
You know?
You were in it.
Yes, I was in school during theBoston bombings of, when was that?
So

Zoe (08:13):
I didn't know that.
That was 20.
That was 20 20 13.
This makes sense of why you're sofucking scared of getting ran over.
Yes.
In these fucking big events.

Heather (08:20):
Yes.
I was at Boston Conservatory and I was onthe main strip, what is that strip called?
Boyleston.
And they were running down Boyleston.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, I was right atthe Trader Joe's, which was.
Probably about like a hundred,200 feet from the explosion.
Oh, wow.
And I was there, so like I, andI had a lot of friends there.
There were friendssitting on the bleachers.
There was a bomb under one ofthe bleachers that didn't go off.

(08:42):
And my friends were sitting right there.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
Anne was there too.
It was like we were freshmen.

Both (08:46):
Yeah.

Heather (08:47):
Just like, and then everything got crazy.
But yeah, it like you heard the explosionand I thought it was a car backfiring,
and I didn't even know what that meant.
I just was like, oh, youknow sounds of the city.
Yeah.
Or like bang, bang.
It's a marathon.
Yeah.
And then everyone started fuckingscreaming and running and then
it was like a wave of people.
That's

Zoe (09:03):
terrifying.
Yeah.
But it doesn't mean it's gonna happenat every single event that you go to.
No, it

Heather (09:09):
doesn't.
It just means that I haveto get myself, you feel

Zoe (09:13):
safe enough to go.
I have to get myself

Heather (09:15):
into a place where I am like.

Zoe (09:17):
This is gonna be okay.

Heather (09:18):
Yeah.
'cause I'm not an agoraphobic.
Like I do go outside, I do things.
It's just crowds are really scary.
Crowds are really scary.
Scary.
And that makes

Zoe (09:23):
sense if you've been through that.
Well, you know what also scares

Heather (09:26):
me about crowds is that people aren't paying attention
to what I'm paying attention to.
Yeah.
People are paying attention to thething and I feel like I'm taking
care of everybody by lookingaround and I'm never having fun.

Zoe (09:35):
Yeah.

Heather (09:36):
Like ever.
So I'm like, you know what, let mejust not go and I'll watch TV at home.

Zoe (09:40):
Yeah.

Heather (09:40):
Maybe the CNE is not for you then.
I

Zoe (09:42):
know.
Um, yeah.
Overall, I'm also feeling feeling for you.
Yeah.
Sympathy pains, sympathy pains for you.
Yeah.
Um,

Heather (09:54):
I'm okay.
I'm okay.
I, uh,

Zoe (09:57):
I'm glad that you're saying that, but I

Heather (09:59):
know you're

Zoe (09:59):
not.

Heather (09:59):
You know what, you know.
No, you know what?
I am.
Okay.
I've been talking to myself a lot.
I am like in this like weird,precarious situation right now,
and I'm just like, I don't.
It's been a long weekend.
Yeah.
And it's Friday.
We won't talk about it yet, but like Yeah.
Shit's going, shit's going down.
Shit's going down.
I've been doing a lot ofcrying and I just, I, okay.

(10:23):
I will say this, the one part ofthe situation, the one thing that
was like said to me is that like, Ispend a lot of time on the podcast.
Mm-hmm.
And I, like ex, I exert all of myenergy on the pod and I love to
work on it, and it is my priority.
Mm-hmm.
And it feels like that'smy first priority.
Mm-hmm.
Which, it's, it's, and out of all, allthe things that were said to me, or all

(10:46):
the things that are going on, I kind ofam just like so fucking proud of myself.
Yeah.

Zoe (10:52):
You're like, thank God the podcast is my number one priority.
Thank God this is what I wanna do.

Heather (10:56):
Oh my God.
Thank God the podcast isn'tthe thing that's falling apart.
Yeah.
I'm like the, I've put so much energyinto this and I just felt in that moment
when it was said to me, I was like.
Good for you, bitch.
Mm-hmm.
Like I've spent my whole life for men.
Yeah.
Like I live for men and I forboys when I was a kid, like I've
always made decisions based on men.

(11:17):
Yeah.
And I'll sacrifice things.
My career auditions.
Yeah.
Sleep, friendships, everything.
Yeah.
And I was like, girl, you flipped it.
Yeah.
So now I'm spending too much timeon this, but not too much time.
This is the exact amount of time, yeah.
The exact amount of energyI wanna be using on this.
And I feel really proudof myself for that.
Me too.
And

Zoe (11:37):
yeah, I'm, I'm just so proud of you.
Rollercoaster.
I mean, what a, what a rollercoaster.
What a rollercoaster.
Rollercoaster.
What rollercoaster, what arollercoaster you're going on and yeah.
I just feel like I wish there was morethat I could do to like, help you,
but I think just like, no, I'm alwayshere for you no matter what happens.
And Yeah.

Heather (11:57):
And I do know that, and I do believe that.
And I obviously like I love you and I'mso fucking thankful that we're friends.
Same.
I fully just like.
Cried hard on our meeting yesterdaymorning and I like did something
and then it was weird and Iwas like, Zoe, I'm so sorry.
I just didn't even mean tolike hide that from you.
I was just, I'm confused.
Like

Zoe (12:17):
I'm just out of fucking control.
Yeah.
Which, and I totally getthat too, by the way.
Like it's a lot, it's, it's a lotthat's going on and like you're
handling it, you're handling it withgrace and you're saying you're good.
You don't have to be good all the time.
Yeah.
As well.
Like, it's good to, it's fine to be sad.
Yeah.
Like you can just, your, hopefully youremotion coming through this will just

(12:40):
be like, I'm sad, but I'm gonna be okay.
You know?
I

Heather (12:43):
think I cried at all out already.
Yeah.
Like, I kind of feel good.
Yeah.
I kind of feel like this is theshit I'm talking about, like, yeah,
we as women, we're fucking good.
Yeah, we're fine.
Like we don't just cry it out, cry it out.
We don't need anybody.
We're just like doing our thing andyou're gonna attract the right energy
when you attract the right energy.
Yeah.
At the right time.
Like, but pushing and forcing and beingupset is just like, not the fight.

(13:08):
Yeah.
You know?
But I, I do actually genuinely feel okay.
I wasn't sure.
I was like, I could come on this podand cry, but I honestly feel fine.
But listening to DJ in our morningmeetings tell us how much he loves
us and how proud of us he is.
I can't not cry.
Love his sweetheart.

Zoe (13:22):
I

Heather (13:22):
know.
I was like, dj, you can't.
I am so emotional right now.
We have a lot of like fans.
Yo.
Yeah.
Yo.
Yeah.
Those dms are so nice.
So fucking nice.
Would you rate yourselfmental health wise?
Uh, I would just say I'mprobably like a five.
Like, I'm okay.
I'm honestly like, yeah.

(13:43):
I, I do feel like, like I feelweirdly calm, to be honest
with you, or like weirdly fine.
Yeah.
But I think, I don't know,I think I'm a five is fine.
Yeah.
I think I'm a five.
I'm in the middle.

Zoe (13:52):
Yeah.

Heather (13:53):
I'd say I'm a

Zoe (13:53):
seven.

Heather (13:54):
Great.

Zoe (13:55):
Yeah.
I would love to be a 10.
I don't know, A 10 would be scary.
If you're too good, thensomething's gonna happen.

Heather (14:01):
Yeah.
If I'm a 10, I feel like Iwould be like Gargo, gar gooing
up on this chair right now.
Just like in a weird hyper.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I guess I'd be like a 10

Zoe (14:11):
if like we blew up.

Heather (14:14):
Oh, like on the internet?

Zoe (14:15):
Yeah.
I was like, like exploded.
That's where

Heather (14:18):
your

Zoe (14:18):
mind goes to first.

Heather (14:20):
I told you that my grandfather was struck by lightning twice.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's all.
That's, there's no more to the story.
That's it.
Okay.
Well, my mental health is fine.
Whatever.
Sober news.
Sober news, we have some like quickinteresting men to talk about.
Ugh.
The men.
I know the men, but sometimes,sometimes they're Okay.

(14:40):
We've got machine gun Kelly.
Mm-hmm.
Who is a sober person, claims to be.
Claims to be sober.
Claims to be.
There's like a few things with him.
He went on watch what hap, watchwhat happens live with Andy Cohen.
Mm-hmm.
And Andy Cohen asked himlike, why are you so young?
How do you look so young?
Yeah.
And then Machine gun Kelly juststarts going off about like,
I don't know, like honestly, Idon't even know who I am anymore.

(15:02):
Like I, I might even just be part a alien.
Like, that's probably true.
And he was makingeveryone so uncomfortable.
It was really uncomfortable.
It was weird.
I, I was a little bit, I was like, okay.
So I always assume everyone's on drugsall the time, but maybe that's just
like him being not on drugs newly,

Zoe (15:18):
or him being newly sober because like when people get newly
sober, they're saying crazy things.
Weird

Heather (15:23):
things like trying to find your humor.
Trying to find your personalityagain, like you're on live tv.
'cause like he

Zoe (15:27):
has been in and outta rehab for like a few years now.
Yeah.
So like, maybe, I think he saidthat he was in rehab in December.
Yeah.
Um, everyone speculated that theybroke up, but he was just in rehab.
So maybe it's just him liketrying to find himself again.
But like, yeah, it's.
Something's going on there.
But also him and Megan arejust like very weird people.

(15:49):
Weird.

Heather (15:50):
It's so weird.
And like I love Megan so much.
I do too.
She was not this weirdwith Brian Austin Green.
I feel like she's gotten well.
I think she's always beena little weird, actually.
Weird.
She was, yeah.
Like I

Zoe (15:59):
watched this interview of her talking about Jennifer's body back in
the day, man, she nuts for Jennifer's

Heather (16:05):
body.
And she was,

Zoe (16:06):
she was, she's always just been a little

Heather (16:07):
crazy

Zoe (16:08):
weirdo.

Heather (16:08):
Jennifer's body.
Have you seen it?

Zoe (16:10):
I have.
Yeah.
What a great movie.
Yeah,

Heather (16:11):
that is such a great

Zoe (16:13):
movie for us.
Yes.

Heather (16:14):
I love that.
I mean,

Zoe (16:14):
we could do that for Halloween too.
Like I can be the blonde girl.
You can be Megan or vice versa.
Fake blood.
Yeah, fake blood.
I have a lot of fake blood that we need

Heather (16:23):
to use.
I have no fake blood.
Never.
I've never had fakeblood machine gun Kelly.
I dunno.
He's just like a character that comes inand out and I'm just like, are you sober?
Are you not?
Yeah.
It's interesting when peopleare like, um, publicly sober.
I wonder if he's gonna go on arm track

Zoe (16:39):
expert.

Heather (16:41):
Has he not been on?

Zoe (16:43):
I feel like he has, but not for a while.
If he's doing thecircuits again, he might.

Heather (16:48):
Yeah.
Speaking of armchair expert, I wantedto bring this up because I was thinking
about it and I'll probably forget forever.
I talk about my sobriety and like it'salways very linked to Doc Shepherd
and Armchair expert, and MonicaPadman and I, they really, really
got me sober, thank fucking God.
But there is one person that I kindof forgot about in my sobriety journey
that's so fucking inspirationaland I think I forgot because

(17:12):
I'm fucking drunk all the time.
Mm-hmm.
I started listening to podcasts, well,when Serial came out, but then the podcast
I started listening to was my favoritemurder with Karen k Gareth and Georgia.
Hard Stark.
And I fucking love those girls.
They're true caught, true crime girls.
I'm obsessed.
Okay.
Karen k Gareth.
She's in her fifties now.

(17:32):
She stopped drinking in her twenties.
Okay.
I think in her like late, mid, latetwenties because she was a blackout
drunk like almost every night.
Yeah.
And she started to have seizures.
Oh shit.
So she's had multiple of them.
There was like one story she toldwhere she woke up in the morning and
she was like on the phone and thenshe turned around and there was like
blood spatter all over her wall.
'cause she had bit her tongue inthe night while having a seizure

(17:53):
and then just like woke up.
And so she had to stop drinking.
Yeah.
Which was hard 'cause she was an addict.

Zoe (17:57):
Yeah.

Heather (17:58):
But yeah, I just wanted to say that because.
I don't know.
I just wanted, I felt like Ineeded to shut out Karen Kilgar.
'cause she really, really put it intomy head that like sobriety is a thing.
Mind you, it took me 10 moreyears to get sober after that.
But, so she would talk about her

Zoe (18:13):
sobriety

Heather (18:14):
a little bit

Zoe (18:14):
on this True Crime podcast.
Yeah.
Like it

Heather (18:17):
would just, it came up like really early days of the podcast.
Yeah.
And like, which was weird 'causethat's when I started listening to it.

Zoe (18:22):
Yeah.

Heather (18:23):
And then like she's gone on someone else's podcast.
Podcast to kind of like tell thefull arc. But I've never listened
to that podcast so I don't

Zoe (18:29):
really know what you're

Heather (18:31):
talking about.
Yeah.
But yeah.
But I just love her and I just wantedto say that 'cause like thinking
about people like texting us now,being like, thank you for doing this.
I'm like, yeah, who were my early ones?
And I'm like, Karen k Gareth,like a woman had to get sober.
She worked, she's in comedy.
Like that's her whole thing.
And I just am like, I don't know.
I feel really good that there was a womanin my life that really like helped me.
And that's all,

Zoe (18:50):
honestly.
There's a photographer I'vefollowed for a really long time.
I think his name is Damon Baker.
And he was.
Getting sober.
Mm-hmm.
Around the time that Iwent to rehab as well.
So maybe that also.
Okay.
Maybe he put it in my mind as well.
Yeah.
It's fun.

Heather (19:08):
Fun to do it with a buddy.

Zoe (19:09):
Yeah.
He was just posting it on Instagram.
I think he still posts like I'm thismany days sober and I'm feeling this
way and it's okay to feel like this.
Call her daddy, Alex Cooper had

Heather (19:19):
Kid

Zoe (19:20):
Cudi on the pod and I didn't listen to it.
He's just the, he's just the coolest guy.
He's the cute ever.
He's the best.
I think just him like opening up about,I guess he was sober doing it on his own.
Mm-hmm.
And then had a relapse andthen was like, what the fuck?
Like, I thought that Iwas fine from this stuff.
I thought that I had this under control.
Yeah.
And then he went to rehab, um, andreally dove into like talking to

(19:45):
therapists about his feelings andmental health and it was just really
cool to, for him to talk about it insuch an open way of like, this is what.
Like this is it.
Mm-hmm.
Like talk to people aboutwhat you're feeling guys.
Yeah.
Like him as a man sayingthat is just so powerful.
So I hope Totally.
That spoke to a lot of people.

Heather (20:06):
Yeah.
A lot of people wholike think that therapy.
Well, okay, this is the thing 'causeit's like we hear about these, a lot
of times we hear about men and womenin Hollywood who like, go to rehab.
Yeah.
But we don't hear about like, the thingsthat people are doing up until that point.
Yeah.
Like re or therapy and all these things.
Like rehab is, uh, is where you go.
Mm-hmm.
When you need immediate help.

Zoe (20:27):
Yeah.
Or even like, it didn't seem like hewas like, it sound sounded like he
was sober for a while, had this slip.
Mm-hmm.
And was like, Hey, letme nip this in the butt.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's what I would do.
Let, let me cut this in the butt.
Cut in the, before I go any harder.
And so that's what he did.
And that's good.
I don't know, I guess I just like, I likehearing men talk about that kind of stuff.

(20:47):
I

Heather (20:48):
do too.
It's really nice.
Yeah, it's really important.
Yeah.
And it's like, and

Zoe (20:51):
talking about rehab, our friend, I was talking to our friend
about rehab because we were gonnatalk about like our rehab binders.
Mm-hmm.
And she was like, what doyou mean a rehab binder?
Don't you guys just sit aroundall day and detox and paint?
Why do you have a binder?
What's in your binder?

Heather (21:11):
We do class all day.
There'd be 24 7.
It really is.
It's therapy bootcamp.
That's why I love rehab.
You go in there and they just liketell you everything you need to know.
You're in a bubble forlike a month to 45 days.
And it's the best.
It is the best.
I mean, we

Zoe (21:25):
did do painting.
I painted like maybe once a week.
I did arts and crafts once a week.
I think I did arts and

Heather (21:32):
crafts twice the whole time I was there.
Really?
But I'm not really a crafty person.
I would rather like not do that.
Yeah.
We played a lot of fucking games though.
And I'm not sober or drunk.
I'm so mean and competitive.
I'm so competitive.
I can't, like I will call you a bitchto your face if, if we're playing
jeopardy and you like, I just can't,I played a lot of pool, I played

Zoe (21:52):
a lot of pool, ping pong and a lot of basketball.
We didn't have

Heather (21:55):
that.
Yeah.
A lot of I like, uh, I like thatyou had all the, all the addicts
and withdrawal trying to like,do play basketball and run up.
Oh my God.
They were

Zoe (22:03):
so fucking sweaty and heaving.

Heather (22:06):
Oh my God.
You, you know how big Iwas when I went to rehab.
Yeah.
And then they made us hike.
I was like, oh

Both (22:11):
no.

Heather (22:12):
In the dead of winter, not hill.
Seriously.
In the dead of winter.
And I'm wearing shorts anda t-shirt and I'm like,

Zoe (22:19):
wait, when did you go to rehab again?
In February?
No, March.
March 5th.
Yeah.
March 5th.

Heather (22:26):
Loved it.
Okay.
Loved debt.
Okay.
Well, talking about kid Cudiand like thinking like, oh, I
thought I had this under control.
Yeah.
The control.
I think we need to deletethe idea of control.
Yeah.
Because once you're anaddict, you're done.
Yeah.
There's no control.
There's honestly, like, I don'teven know if there's anything in
my life that I am controlling.
Like am I controlling my food?

(22:47):
No, not really.
I don't think about it.
Am I controlling?
Like, I'm just not like abstainingfrom things all the like, there isn't
really anything 'cause I'm, otherthan the fact that I'm completely
sober, but other things in my life.
Mm-hmm.
There's an app that, didyou like that transition?
Mm-hmm.
There's an app that is out,it's called the Sunnyside app.

(23:08):
And let me just, it'sSunnyside Mindful Drinking app.

Zoe (23:11):
I'm,

Heather (23:11):
I

Zoe (23:12):
wonder if there's other apps like this?

Both (23:14):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (23:15):
If there's one, there must be a few.
You know what I mean?
When there's one.
One, there's one.
There's a few.
There's a few.
Okay.
So where did

Heather (23:22):
she send this to us.
Found it.
Okay.
I'm gonna play this.
Okay.
A little bit of it so you guys canall hear what I'm talking about.
It's what, what?
Talking about

Ad (23:30):
I didn't quit drinking and I'm not going to, but I am drinking 50% less.
Last week I drank threenights this week, just two.
And last night I stoppedat just one glass.
Today I even swappedwine for tea tomorrow.
Who knows?
I'm finally doing it my way.
Not some all or nothing rule book.
And the app I'm using to help me be moremindful about my drinking is Sunnyside.

(23:53):
Okay,

Zoe (23:54):
so cringe.
First of all.
So cringe.
So cringe.

Ad (23:57):
Second

Zoe (23:57):
of all, what?
Like, yeah.
Are you an addict?
You are.
In my eyes, you're an addict if you needto try to control it like that, right?
Even my friend, remember I told you,she texted me like, I'm only gonna allow
myself to have shots if it's an occasion.
Yeah.
And if it's not an occasion, Ican only have three cocktails.

(24:17):
That's it.
Me too.
Okay.
If.
You're setting up rules for yourselflike that and trying to download
an app to follow guidelines.
You have a problem.
Yes.
You can't control it.

Heather (24:28):
Yes.
That is exactly how I feel.
The Sunnyside app, basicallyit, it is a subscription.
Mm-hmm.
So we read like two differentprices, but I think like the
max price is like 2 99 annually.
Yeah.
So it is expensive.
And um, basically you'retracking your drinking.
Yeah.
And you make little goalsfor yourself kind of.

(24:48):
But I think it's almost feels likethe goal is to intuitively drink
and not even think about drinking.
Yeah.
Which, if you're trying tocontrol your drinking, you're
always thinking about drinking.
Drinking.

Zoe (25:00):
Yeah.
And you're probably like checking that up,like every day being like, can I drink it?
Can I drink it?
You know, and that no shit.

Heather (25:09):
What the fuck?
I would be like.
Just obscene.
I know it's

Zoe (25:13):
fucking hard, but, well, I

Heather (25:14):
would just be like, oh, okay, so I'm doing, and listen, I
get it because I've done these appsbefore with eating and with whatever
else running, shit like that.
But you like start outwith good intentions.
Yeah.
But no one's watching you.
There's no supervision.
So you're, you canmanipulate it all you want.

(25:36):
And what I would do is like, okay,I had one glass of wine on Tuesday.
Well that would've never happened.
I had 16 glasses of wine on Tuesday,so I'll have no glasses tomorrow.
Yeah.
And then on Thursday I can drink.
Yeah.
But I'll just be like, okay, wellnow it's Wednesday and I wanna
drink, so I'll just have three.
Yeah.
That's fine.
Yeah.
And like, and I

Zoe (25:53):
would just do that.
Exactly.
No, I think like, it's similar tohow I had therapists and I would,
we were trying to like control mydrinking and I would lie to them about
being like, yeah, I only had fivedrinks yesterday, meanwhile I had 10.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
So it's like the same thing.
You're either lying to your appor you're lying to your therapist

(26:16):
about how much you're drinking.
Mm-hmm.
You can't control it.
The only solution is abstinence.
Yeah.
Scary but true.
Yeah.
Because I really, I really think,unless you're like a very, unless
you're like trying to like trainfor like a marathon or something.
That's exactly right.
You wanna track how much you'redrinking through an app, then.
Yes.
But if you're doing it to tryingto stop drinking as much mm-hmm.

(26:40):
Then you have a problem and youshould probably just quit altogether.
Well,

Heather (26:43):
that's exactly right.
So, and it's like, the question reallyis, it's like who are you marketing to?
Yeah.
I mean, you heard it on the pod,but the clip is this woman who,
who the fuck is she, by the way?
She's not like a celebrity that we know isYeah, she, she didn't introduce herself.
It's like a sober person or a personwho wants to get sober or like she
just wants to control her drinking.
Her arms are fully crossed in front ofher and she's so excited talking about

(27:07):
this app and controlling her drinking.
So I'm like, you are not using this app.
Who are you?
This is a paid actor.
Definitely.
I just, and also somebody else saidthat in the comments, like, I saw a
man doing the exact same ad. Yeah.
So I'm like, okay, yeah.
This is a scripted thing.
Yeah.
This is like, who isthis marketed towards?
Like is this for people, like yousaid, who are training for something?
Or maybe like, I wonder ifthere's people out here who

(27:30):
are like, oh no, you know what?
Maybe it's like me where I'm like, Idon't know how much protein I I consume.
Let me try and track it andf just figure out how much.
Maybe if you're a person who like has zeroqualms with alcohol and addiction, I don't
know why you would get the app, but ifyou're just like, let me see how much I'm

Zoe (27:46):
drinking.
Well, that's the thing.
Like if you don't have a problemwith it, then you don't really care
to track how much you're drinking.
Right.
Because you're probably only drinkinglike once a week if that, you know, and

Heather (27:56):
not

Zoe (27:56):
to be a super pessimist,

Heather (27:58):
but I also think that like these apps, they want you
to fail because that means you'regonna keep coming back to the app.
Yeah.
And it's gonna be likeMyFitnessPal, by the way, if you.
Any of you had eating disorders andused MyFitnessPal, like a full diary.
Yeah.
You do fall off it.
'cause you, it's mean.
Like you, you literally hurt yourown self by being like, this is what

(28:19):
I ate, this is what I drank, so I'mgonna put the phone away, drink, drink,
drink, and then I'm gonna come back.
Mind you, my subscription,my subscription is renewing.
So however long you have the app.
So I feel like the app is, it'senabling people to fail at controlling

Zoe (28:34):
their drinking and it's making them even more shameful.
Mm-hmm.
And disappointing in themselvesbecause they can see that they're
not following it, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
So there's a different appcalled Reframe as well.
So it says like, which app is better?
Reframe or Sunnyside?

Both (28:49):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (28:50):
So, yeah, there's more than one app like this.
The Sunnyside app was co-foundedby Nick Allen and Ian Anderson, the
two most white men names ever exceptfor the two men that started aa.
Their names are literally likeBill and Bob or something.
Yeah.
Um, they launched the app back in2020, originally under the name
cutback coach in response to increasedalcohol consumption during COVID-19.

Both (29:15):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (29:16):
Sunnyside focus on, focuses on mindful drinking and
moderation rather than abstinence.
Ugh.
I It just seems like they're fuckingtaking your money and I don't know.
I'd, I would love tohear someone who, yeah.
Who uses this app and likewhy they use this app.
And if it's like good if they'vehad positive experiences with it.
Mm-hmm.

(29:36):
And if it is working for them.
But I just, it reminds me oflike how I was trying to control
my drinking back in the day.
I would've definitely got this app.
Yeah.
If I was like, when I was tryingeverything but going to rehab, you know.
Well,

Heather (29:49):
and you said something that you found recently in your diary about Yeah.
Tracking your drinking.

Zoe (29:53):
Well, I, yeah.
So I was looking through my olddiary, which is like, so sad, so sad.
I'll bring it in one day.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll like read you stuff.

Heather (30:04):
Yeah.
When I'm not so emotional.

Zoe (30:05):
Yeah.
Not today.
I, um, yeah, I started it backin December, December 21st, 2021.
And I went to rehab in2020 2nd of October.
So I was writing in it for over ayear trying to control my drinking.

(30:26):
What did that look like foryou controlling your drinking?
Well, I was tracking what I wasdrinking every day until I got too drunk
and then I missed a week, you know?
And yeah, I had, I write down like,reasons why I picked up the mickey
this time, or like, why, I know I'mthe worst person when I'm drinking.
Why do I keep drinking?

(30:46):
You know, like I write this stuffdown to myself in my journal and
I reading it back, it sounds likeI was trying to stop drinking.
Mm-hmm.
I don't remember it like thatbecause I think, I know in my
heart I wasn't trying to stop.
I was just trying to control it.
Yeah.
I like did little codes for myself, likelittle signs and like exclamation marks

(31:08):
to like do a code of how much I wasdrinking in case anyone was reading it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I didn't wanna putdown like 30 plus drinks.
I don't know.
Yeah.

Heather (31:16):
Someone's gonna find your journal.
I

Zoe (31:17):
know, but it's, it was.
So I would, I was trying everythingto try to control it, so I
would've definitely got that app.

Both (31:25):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (31:25):
I was trying therapy, I was trying to like meditate and do yoga
and I was like, some, some stuff I waswriting in there was like, just read
your book and you're gonna be okay.
I was reading shit like the bell jar.
Mm-hmm.
And like Joanne Didion shit, like,stuff that was like depressing
myself even more, you know?
Yeah.
So it's like, I don't, I just,I felt really sad for her and.

(31:48):
It's funny to look back at that now.
Yeah.
'cause I was so stuck in the same cycle.
Like, I would write something like,oh my God, I'm feeling so good today.
I'm so proud of myself.
I didn't drink anything today.
And then three weeks go by.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh, I got fucked up.
I pissed my bed every night and Icalled my ex-boyfriend, like, showed

(32:08):
up at his house and fucked his friend.
And you know, like, yeah.
It's just, it's chaotic reading it.
It's, it's so chaotic.
It's so

Heather (32:17):
fucked up.
But I can relate to that sodeeply because it's that thing of
like, I know there's a problem.
Yeah.
And I'm a problem now.
How can I logic myself into changing,how can I trick myself into like,
like, you almost want, for me anyway,I almost wanted to snap out of it.
Yeah.

Zoe (32:35):
Well I think that's what we were trying to do for so long.

Heather (32:37):
I was hoping, 'cause you know how like you have go through phases in
life of like, I don't know, I like, Ilike, I don't like this food and now I
like it, or I don't, I literally can'tthink of one fucking anecdote today.
Mm-hmm.
But I was like, okay, well maybepeople grow out of drinking.
Yeah.
Like hope.
I would hope and pray every nightI'm like, tomorrow I'm gonna wake up
and just not have the urge to drink.
That's what I would love.
Or like,

Zoe (32:57):
not have the urge to drink like I was doing.
You know?
Like, yeah.
Like I, I hope that I can drinklike a normal person tomorrow.
It's gonna be fine.
I'll be okay.

Both (33:06):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (33:07):
But that's

Heather (33:08):
the other thing too, when we say that it's like.
Did I actually wanna drinklike a normal person?
Like Sure, that's the thing.
Yeah.
I, but I wanted to get fucked up.
Get fucked up.
The point of my drinking fuckedup wasn't just to have a drink
with the girls, it was to leave mybody and get completely smashed.
Yeah.
Like, so I don't know if it's that funny.
I wanted

Zoe (33:24):
to leave my body and com get completely smashed, but not say
psychotic things to people and

Heather (33:31):
Yeah.
Ruin

Zoe (33:31):
myself and my body.

Heather (33:32):
I think I wanted to start over and not have this problem at all.
Yeah.
Like, I really, really did.
And it was very, it's very upsettingto then be like, now this is on
me and I've gotten here and I havethis big problem that I have to fix.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna track it and dothe best I can with what I know.
Yeah.
And then get myself to rehab eventually.
But, but I like what you said about.

(33:54):
You write a thing down,I'm feeling really good.
And then three weeks goby and you're like, oh.
When I was in rehab, one of my friends hadone of those like five minute journals.
Yeah.
And she was like, okay, see look,my sister's got this journal for me.
And I wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote.
And then you flip through some pagesand then it's blank, blank, blank.
Yeah.
And then she's like, oh.
And then you see I started up again.
Yeah.
Like I got sober again here.
And I'm like, damn.

(34:14):
It's exhausting.
Yeah.
It's fucking exhausting.
And the starting over is sogrueling that I never did it.
Like I wouldn't have even trackedmy shit 'cause I didn't want to.

Zoe (34:24):
I, yeah, I, I always did come back to it.
So in this one journal I have like.
Probably a quarter of it is froma year trying to control it.
Mm-hmm.
And then another quarter of it is likein rehab and then the end of it is
like maybe six months out of rehab.
Um, that's amazing that you did that.
It's amazing that you fucking, it'snot consistent though, like Right.

(34:46):
But still it's something thatI have to like track of how the
fuck I was feeling back then.
Like it's actually really sad to Yeah.
To go back there and like, I had just readit and then I was talking to my boyfriend,
like being all sad and then I heard yournews and I was like, this is too much.
Yeah.
This is too

Heather (35:06):
much.
Like I'll be exiting, but you so Yeah.
Exactly.
Can't possibly.

Zoe (35:11):
I was, wait, that was a lot.
It was a big night for me.
That was a lot.
That was a big night for you?
Well, it had to be a big night for mebecause it was a big night for you.
So like, it makes sense.

Heather (35:19):
Well, yeah.
Like I say, we're twins from that moviewith Lindsay Lohan, not the Parent Trap.
The older one where one of them getstheir, gets kidnapped and gets their
hand cut off and then I feel it.
Yes.
Do you guys wanna seewhat a binder looks like?
A

Zoe (35:30):
rehab binder?
Yeah.
Show them the bin, show them the bind.
I wonder

Heather (35:37):
who do you think that app would work for though?
Do you think it works for hard drinkers?
Like we were talking last week aboutlike the three tiers of drinking.
Yeah.
What's the first one?

Zoe (35:46):
Like moderate drinkers.
Moderate drinkers.
Hard drinkers.
Alcoholics

Heather (35:49):
maybe for hard drinkers, but even hard drinkers, like they can stop.

Zoe (35:56):
But

Heather (35:56):
then

Zoe (35:57):
I just don't know why someone would want to track their drinking if
they didn't have a problem with it.
Well, that is what's confusing to me.

Heather (36:04):
Well, that's why I tracked my food 'cause I was
having a problem with it.
Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.
Yeah.
And I, I really, it is a weird thingbecause also with food and my FitnessPal.
You have to eat food to survive, you haveto eat food, you have to drink water,
but you don't have to have alcohol.
So if you're like ask, like tellingthese people like come to my app and
we can mindfully show you how to drink.

(36:27):
Yeah.
Casually.
And when like just, it seems very weird.
Intuitively, it's firstall that doesn't work.
Yeah.

Zoe (36:33):
It does not work Well.
And that's why I like resented a lot ofmy therapist too, because they were like
trying to control my drinking with me.
Yeah.
And like I know now thatthat was never gonna work.
Mm-hmm.
And I needed to stop Absolutely.
Talking about that.
I need to bring this up.
Someone told me in the meetingsthat she was at a different meeting

(36:55):
like a couple weeks ago, whatever.
And this guy was there, he is avolunteer at CMH and was like saying
he was an addict to get the insidescoop of what the meetings were about.
What to like try to better people at CMH.
Meanwhile, he's asking this girllike, oh, so you believe in God?

(37:17):
So why do you believe in God?
So like interrogating this girl who Ithink she's like pretty newly sober.
Hey, so why are you, why are youdisguising yourself to be an alcoholic?
To come into these meetings,to like shame people for it?
Like, I don't understand.
And that also makes me upset because why?

(37:40):
Like, these are the types ofpeople who are volunteering at mh.
That's a horrible person right there.
But wait, was he trying to comeinto AA to like learn tips?
I think he was just like,what the fuck is this about?
Why God.
Okay.
Yeah.
And like shaming this girlthat I was talking to.
Like, oh, so why do you believe in God?
This isn't gonna helpyou, blah, blah, blah.

(38:01):
And that's the type of people that we haveworking for our mental health hospital.
Someone who's gonna disguisethemselves to sneak into a meeting.

Heather (38:09):
Yeah.

Zoe (38:10):
What the actual fuck I was saying to her, I was like, okay,
this would've been good if he wasactually trying to learn about it.
Mm-hmm.
To help people.
Totally, totally.
That would've been different.
But again, don't sneakyourself into a meeting.
Just ask someone about it.
Yes.
Just ask or say like, Hey, I'm, Iwanna go to this meeting to learn
about it for my patients at CMH.

(38:32):
Sure.
We bring you in.
Fine.

Heather (38:33):
Yeah.
But some groups are closed andI'm sure they would say no.
Yeah.
And then some groups are open and I'msure they would say, yeah, come on in.
Yeah.
Like, this is

Zoe (38:41):
so I, it just like worries me that that's the type of people that
we have working at CMH, which is ourmental health hospital, mental Health
and Addiction hospital in Toronto.

Heather (38:51):
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
Also heavily funded.

Zoe (38:53):
Yeah,

Heather (38:54):
it is crazy.
And also to that.
Nobody, nobody in AA believesthat Jesus walked on water.
Okay.
They give themselves to God so thatGod can take some of the pressure
off their fucking addiction.
You idiots.
And also like, it's a,

Zoe (39:06):
it's our God.
Mm-hmm.
I create my own God that I want.
Yeah.
Like, I have a list of what, whattraits my God is and my traits are
different than your God's traits.
You know, like it's a different God.
It's not Jesus Christ,it's not religion at all.

Ad (39:20):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (39:22):
So I don't know that that was something I wanted
for that people do really get

Heather (39:24):
caught up in the God.
And like, that's the other thing too.
I don't, um, like I'm not knockingthe way people try to get sober, but
this app is not encouraging sobriety.
It's encouraging you to keep drinking.

Zoe (39:34):
Yeah.

Heather (39:35):
Which like, yeah.
You are just like, youdon't need to drink.
That's the thing.
And if you, again, what yousaid, we'll just reiterate.
If you need to controlyour drinking in any way.
If you have a problem with drinkingand the answer is abstinence,
you're gonna get there eventually.
And also,

Zoe (39:50):
a better app to get if you wanna be abstinent, is I am sober.
Yeah.
Get that app, track your, um, sobriety.
Yeah.
And you can write in that appevery day, like how you're feeling
and why you wanna stay sober.
And you can read other people'scomments of why they're sober
and how they're feeling.
And it is a communitywithin an app of sobriety.

(40:10):
Get that.

Heather (40:10):
Get that.
I'm 894 days sober today.
Oh shit.
You're coming up on a thousand babies.
I know.
I'm coming up.
I uh, there was a girl on our thatdmd us, or No, she didn't DM us.
This girl posted on her storylike her sober, like her days
and I think it was 2, 2, 2.
And I messaged her and I waslike, damn, there's something so
satisfying about a triple number.
An angel number.
Yeah.

(40:30):
You're like, I've made it here.
Oh, 1,027.
That just like gave me chills alittle bit that you have four numbers,
like you have a comma in yours.
I know like you have so many thatlikeget so many days you have a comma.
But I also

Zoe (40:41):
love that my sober date is October 22nd, 2022.
Like the twos.
It is satisfying.

Heather (40:48):
Mine is March 5th, 2023.
And I actually kind of like,yeah, that mine is not perfect.

Zoe (40:54):
I like yours too, because I like a five and a three together because they're
odd numbers and you're an odd lady.
That's true.
But usually I'd be like, I can't.

Heather (41:06):
And that's why I love you.
I, I usually like a round number.
Like I would've been like March 8th, 2020.
Like that's what I would like, butI think the imperfection of it is
part of the sobriety of it all.

Zoe (41:15):
Yeah.
Well, and also like the, there's a sectionon here called community and if you're
struggling to be like, be sober and liveevery day as a sober person, you can
just read all of these milestones andhow people are feeling being newly sober.
It's, it's a great app.
That's an app that we love.

Heather (41:36):
We love not that one.
If you are using an app to control yourdrinking, if that is where you are.
Mm-hmm.
That's okay.
That's okay.
Listen, we're all on our own

Zoe (41:44):
journey.
It might be like working for you too.
I personally, it wouldn't work for me andI know I would've tried it and I would've
like been like, fuck, I'm a failure again.

Heather (41:54):
Yeah.
It's also probably not workingfor you and if it is right now,
it probably won't in my opinion.
But you forward, John, you do your thing.
I will say.
If it doesn't work foryou, that's okay too.
Yeah.
It's super normal to not beable to control your drinking
and yeah, people need to knowthat it is very difficult to do.
If you fail at it,you're not a bad person.
Controlling your alcohol is not a real

Zoe (42:15):
thing.

Heather (42:17):
Yeah.

Zoe (42:18):
Now,

Heather (42:18):
now

Zoe (42:19):
do you wanna talk about Uber?
Let's talk about Uber.
You can tell me about it.
'cause I didn't listen to thatpodcast that I was supposed to.
Uber baby.
Uber.
Uber.
I was so stubborn.
It took me a very long timeto download the Uber app.
Really?
I was taking taxis up until COVID,basically, like I, I was a taxi girl.

Heather (42:41):
Really?

Zoe (42:41):
Yeah.

Heather (42:42):
You know what I find very, it sounds like I feel so bad for the taxis.
Um, I did, I'm a veryempathy first person always.
Even before sobriety.
Totally, totally.
And I agree with you.
Um, but I also feel bad formyself and I like efficiency,
so I no longer give a fuck.

Zoe (42:58):
Yeah.
No.
Now I don't take taxis, but I probablywas one of my last people in my
friend group to download Uber becauseI was like, no, I'm taking a taxi.
I like taxis well, but so stubborn of me.
Taxis eventually got the tap.
Yeah.
But like, it, it took so fucking

Heather (43:16):
long.
But I had cash all the time.
'cause I was working at restaurants,so it didn't really matter.
See, I was poor all the time, so Ididn't, I didn't even know if I was
gonna be able to fucking mm-hmm.
I get, there were times whereI had my sister 'cause we
lived in the same building.
Yeah.
I'd have her come down and pay the taxi.
'cause I was like, my creditcard is fully maxed out.
Yeah.
I was drinking on thetrain on the way here.
Yeah.
Like,

Both (43:32):
yeah.
But.

Heather (43:33):
Yeah, I, I started taking Lyfts in Boston and I remember
when Lyft came out first, when theycame out first, they all had big,
fuzzy pink mustaches on their car.
Were you around for?
No.
You would've been in highschool during that time.
So it was different

Zoe (43:46):
in the states also.
That's also true too.
Do we have

Heather (43:49):
Lyft here?

Zoe (43:50):
Yeah.
But I feel like Uber wasfirst here, not Lyft.
Okay, okay.
Yeah.

Heather (43:54):
Yeah.
So we had Lyft in Boston first, andI remember reading about it, like
someone had like gotten into a carand I was like, oh, who is that?
And I like, oh, it's a Lyft.
And I was like, what is this?
And I remember feelingvery nervous about it.
Yeah.
And being like, this is just somerandom guy in a car picking us up.
I think the first few LyftsI took were actually women.
Yeah.
So I

Zoe (44:11):
was like,

Heather (44:11):
okay.
But

Zoe (44:11):
the same thing with taxis.
It was a stranger that you'regoing into his car no matter what.
Like it's all taxis were strangers as

Heather (44:19):
well.
The difference between taxidrivers and Uber drivers mm-hmm.
Is that.
Taxi drivers report to a company.
They are employees.
They're employed by Beck Taxi or whatever.
Fucking taxi.
Yeah.
Uber drivers are independent contractors.
Okay, so they're not employed by Uber.
Yeah, they just work for Uber.
Yeah.
So that's the difference.
Taxis in that sense should be saferbecause A, they're like always tracked

(44:45):
and like they have to report and bringtheir taxi back at the end of the day.
So it's like, unless it'slike a fake taxi, well then
you have fucking fake taxis.
Yeah.
We also had a thing here with Uber.
Years ago.
A few years ago where, wherepeople were getting killed,

Zoe (44:57):
right?

Heather (44:58):
Yes.
And people, yeah.
McKinley

Zoe (44:59):
was talking to me about that actually.
Really?
Yeah.

Heather (45:01):
Yeah.
'cause this thing came out likethe big blast that was like,
make sure you're checking Yeah.
License plates.

Zoe (45:06):
Yeah.

Heather (45:06):
And you usually do, but there are some times you're like, I'm at this house.
The car pulls up.
You're like, I'm getting in now.
I check everything.
Now I check it.
But when I was drinking, Iwould not check anything.
I would just stumble intowhoever's car would take me.
We were just talking about that.
Yeah.
How the fuck you and I got home Sometimeseven that, like, I would stumble into
a car and it happened to be the Uber.

(45:27):
Like how did that fucking happen?
Yeah.
How did we make it home?

Zoe (45:29):
Well, even like me biking, like I remember biking to bars.
Yeah.
And I'd be like, Hey,I am not biking home.
I, I'm not gonna bike home because I knowI'm gonna be blackout drunk at the end.
And I would wake up with mybike in the living room and
I'd be like, what the fuck?
I biked home last night.
So

Heather (45:47):
it's so crazy.
How did did I do that?
Because it's like that drunk,courageous feeling of I can do anything.
Yeah.
And you're like, nah, Icould take the bike crazy.
That same feeling of like,I'm not gonna drink today.
And you're like, nah, I'm gonna drink.
I'm gonna drink.
Same thing, but damnit the bike.
What is it?
In our brains, you're like, the bikeis covered in mud and I am covered
in mud and I will get on this bike.

Zoe (46:08):
I will do it.
God,

Heather (46:09):
you're so dangerous.
Honestly, now I kind of get whyyou're a little more, you're a
little less nervous about bikingbecause you were a drunk biker.
Yeah.
Like, I gotta be better than I was.
Yeah.
Now you're the best one on the road.
I really am pretty good.
We went to boxing on Monday.
We're doing twice a week now.
Well, twice a whatever.
Yeah.
But, and I, four way stop sign,I started to go and these fucking

(46:32):
bikers, this group of men, not intheir, their like little bike suits.
Mm-hmm.
But just like going to work.
Right through the stop sign.
And then I rolled down my windowand I said, why didn't you stop?
And then he just went.
And I was like, no, no.
This isn't for my benefityet, Dick, this is for you.
I'm gonna hit you with my car.
Yeah.

Zoe (46:49):
No, I don't fully stop, but I usually slow down and maneuver with the cars.

Heather (46:56):
It's just the city isn't right either we can't have bikers or
we can't have cars as a car driver.
Honestly, if you've said, nomore cars, I'd be like, bummer.
Fine.
Yeah.
And I'll get a bike.
So what's happening?
So Uber, we listened to this podcast.
You listened to it.
I listened to this podcast.
So this podcast, um, from theDaily, the New York Times podcast.
Yeah.
Um, hosted by Natalie Kitr,featuring Emily Steele.

(47:19):
Okay.
So Emily Steele's, the one, two women.
Two women.
Okay.
Love.
Um, Emily Steele's, the one that'slike really telling the story.
Okay.
So basically if you guys wannalisten to this podcast, it's
called Every eight Minutes.
Uber's Alarming Sexual ViolenceProblem Every eight Minutes.
Yeah.
Is that true?
Yeah, babe.
Yeah, babe.
So yeah.

(47:40):
Every, which is just like, letthat sink in every eight minutes.
There's sexual abuse in an Uber.
Okay.
Sexual.
Sexual violence.
Sexual harassment.
Uber is meant to be a,a safe transportation.
Yeah.
Right.
Like that is what it is.
Uber was put in place, largely marketingfor things like don't drink and drive.

(48:00):
Yeah.
You know, don't be walking alone as women.
Don't be walking alone at night.
Easy call an Uber.
Yeah.
My dad is always like, call an Uber.
Call an Uber.
And I'm like, I live two minutes away.
Yeah.
That would be crazy.

Both (48:10):
Yeah.

Heather (48:10):
But it's like safety first.
Safety first.
However we can kind of imaginegetting into a car with a stranger
isn't always gonna be super safe.
No, we think it should bebecause they're employed.
Right.
This is an employee.
Mm-hmm.
Of Uber wrong.
This is a independent contractorthat works under Uber.

(48:31):
Yeah.
So.
What that means is just basicallythey have no one to report to.
Yeah.
Like they don't have a supervisor,they don't have a boss that's
like, Hey, where are you?
Your car says this.
Or like, how many, why can't they havevideos mandatory inside the cars as well?
Well, it's funny you shouldbring that up, my friend Zhan.
Yeah.
2018 there was a newCEO that came in mm-hmm.

(48:56):
For Uber, and he was very excitedabout this plan to have dash cam
footage or like recording devices.
Mm-hmm.
In the car, on the dashboard.
Yeah.
Facing so we could watch the whole thing.
Yeah.
It was an extremely cheap optionand it was extremely doable,
affordable, easy to implement.
Okay.
Not a big fucking deal.

(49:16):
Okay.
Okay.
But it was turned down becauseit would go against Uber's
policy of general contractors.
So if you're a general contractor,you can't be filmed by someone
because they're not your employee.
Right.
So you're just driving your car,you're just a man, like you're just
a man driving a car and now theywanna put a camera in your car.

(49:38):
Well, fuck you.
This is my car.
But can't it be like, foronly when you're like working?
Is it on, like why?
No, it doesn't matter.
They cannot implement it.
Apparently that's now there is an option.
I think in early days of Uber,there was an option on our phones
that could say like, record.
Yeah.
And like maybe their phones were, would,would record or something like that.

(50:00):
But I've never even heard of that.
I've never heard of that.
No.
No.
Also, what am I, I'm gonna just sit andrecord my Uber driver the whole time.
That's Yeah.
It

Zoe (50:05):
seems crazy.

Heather (50:07):
It seems crazy until you hear these fucking stats.
Okay.
Tell me.
Massive underreporting.
Okay.
The number that Uber gave ofsexual assaults, now they gave
kind of like a, a tear thing.
It's like serious sexualassault and just like.
Kind of harassment.

(50:27):
Mm. And that is a bunch of mendeciding what's what, right?
Yeah.
So fuck off.
Yeah.

Zoe (50:33):
All serious.

Heather (50:35):
It was reported like 27,000 sexual assaults between
the year of 2017 and 2022.
That's insane.
That was widely under reported.
The real number.
Are you ready?
Okay.
The real number, they said 27,000.
The real number.
400,181. Sexual assaults and harassment

Both (50:57):
in the States Accusations?

Heather (50:58):
Yep.
In the states.
And about 100,000 of themwere serious assaults.
Now serious assaults,classify as rape and like.
Entering someone's body.
Yeah.
Right.
And like, and touching.
Touching too, but that's notserious assault to them, right?
Yeah.
So like putting a hand back, what's hashappened to Zoe and I in fucking Ubers?
Like, yeah.

(51:18):
Putting their hand back.
Grazing your thigh.
That does not count as aserious sexual assault.
Now this is also theones that were reported.
How many fucking times have you and I beenin an Uber and something crazy happened
and we're just like, I need to go to bed.
Yeah.
How many times has that fucking happened?

Zoe (51:33):
Well, I'm just thinking of like all the times that Yes, I stumble in an
Uber at the end of the night and then Iwake up in my bed and I'm like, how did
I go from being passed out in an Uber?

Both (51:45):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (51:46):
To being tucked into bed.
Yeah.
How did I manage to be passed outin my Uber and wake up in bed?
Did I miraculously get up andwalk myself into the condo?
I do.
If I did, I did.
I would love to see the footage of that.
But

Heather (52:03):
sometimes when you're in

Zoe (52:04):
a blackout, you act like a super fucking normal person.
I don't know.
I've seen a lot of my blackout friends.
Like I try to fucking wake them upand they will not fucking wake up.
Yeah.
So I'm like, if I, if they're not wakingup, I don't think I was waking up, babe.
I don't think I was waking up.

Heather (52:18):
I got roofed at a bar in St. Mark's place in New York with my
friend Jackie and I got in an Uber.
Mm-hmm.
And I got home and I did wake up.
I think he slapped me, not slapped me,but he turned around and was like, Hey.
Yeah, sorry.
And then I had to walk up fiveflights of stairs in my doc Martins,
and then was asleep in my boots.
Yeah.
So like, I don't know if it's like a,that fear of being a woman and being

(52:40):
attacked is so deeply ingrained in ourbodies that like, when it's our time
to get outta the car, it's our time.
I, I have no idea.
I have no

Zoe (52:48):
idea either.
But like, uh, all I know is that wewere both passed out in a lot of Ubers.
Yeah.
Okay.
And those stats are high.
Those stats are

Heather (52:57):
high.
I did have an Uber driver.
Walk me into my condo once.
Mm-hmm.
Hand me over to the security guardand say, please come with her.
Please escort her up to her room.
She is out of her mind.
Yeah.
That was really kind though.
He was not mad at me.
He felt bad.
He was a dad.
That was really kind.
Yeah.
Now Uber, not only is tracking has all theinformation of sexual assaults, they're

(53:18):
lying about a, to protect the image.
Right?
Because the image of Uber is asafe way to move around the city.
So if

Zoe (53:24):
a driver gets like alleged with sexual sexual
assault, is he allowed to drive

Heather (53:31):
again?
Yeah.
So if a driver is accused ofsexual assault, it's on him.
It's not on Uber becausehe's a general contractor.
Okay.
In one of these cases, Uber actuallyturned around and sued the driver.

Zoe (53:44):
Hmm.

Heather (53:45):
And took no accountability.
Mind you.
Okay.
But these drivers, he wasn't able,

Zoe (53:48):
allowed to.
He wasn't allowed to drive again or what?

Heather (53:51):
That one, I don't know.
Or does

Zoe (53:52):
he just drive for a

Heather (53:52):
different company like Lyft?
That one, I don't know.
It really depends.
Yeah.
Now, what I will tell you is thatthere are options on Uber, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's Uber Black, Uber, Excel,Uber Eco, and then Uber Basic.
Mm-hmm.
Uber basic is the most basic of options.
It is the cheapest option.
The way that Uber ranks cars isnot just based on the cars, it's

(54:14):
based on the safety and the driver.

Both (54:16):
Hmm.

Heather (54:16):
So.
I'm a person and I don't have that muchmoney, and I'm trying to get to school.
Yeah.
I'm gonna choose Uber basic and thatperson, it's very possible that he
has been involved in a sexual assaultcase, because if you're doing unserious
sexual assault, you still get to drive.
It's fine.
You just get a black mark and you getbumped down, but you can still drive.
And now we're fucking pickingup people of lower income.

(54:40):
So we're putting thosefucking people at risk.

Zoe (54:42):
Do you get a lower rating though?
Like if you, I guess like you would havelower ratings, I would assume You have,

Heather (54:47):
if you're molesting everybody, you would have a lower rating.
But like I've, I, I don't, Imean, I don't know if I've ever
gotten like a lower rating.
It's pretty good.
But like I, I don't know whathappens if you have like one zero.
Yeah.
And the rest is like four, 4.5.
I don't know if it really brings you down.
Do you get Uber excelsor do you get basics?
Oh, I've never, I never get basics.
I get Uber X, oh, Uberexcel's like a big one.

(55:09):
Uber X is like the one that'slike, it's just do they have

Zoe (55:11):
Uber basic here?
I think they just Uber have Uber X. Theyhave, because I've never heard of an Uber
basic, now that I'm thinking about it.
Yeah.
Uber X, Uber, black.
Black.
SUV, that's it.
Well, Uber green Comfort.

Heather (55:27):
Yeah.
Share, Uber.
Share.
So share is the same.
Share is also the same.
So I think in the States they probablydo have states and in different
cities they have different things.
Different things dependingon like, um, economic status.
I didn't know

Zoe (55:38):
that You can call a taxi through Uber.
Yeah, they work for Uber too.
Oh.
Everything is owned by Uber now.
Yeah.
So damn.
Really?
Every, every big company is justlike endorsing sexual assault.
Eh?
That's the fucking

Heather (55:53):
thing.
That's the thing.
So I'm a college student.
Yeah.
I don't have that much money.
I'm trying to get to classor the bar or the this.
Mm-hmm.
And I have to get an Uberbasic, or an Uber eco or
whatever the cheapest option is.
And that person that, and itdoesn't necessarily mean that
that person is a bad person.
No.
What it means is that bad peoplewho commit sexual harassment

(56:13):
and sexual assault are stillallowed to drive for Uber.
They are not.
Yeah.
Nobody is told that theseare dangerous people.
They're not restrictedto only picking up men.
Yeah.
They are allowed to dowhatever the fuck they want.
It's insane.
And I would really just like tobring back the piece of like most
people getting those Ubers are,

Zoe (56:31):
it's Are women.

Heather (56:32):
They're women, but there are also people of a lower income status because
that's just the one you're picking.
You're not picking Uber X. Well,

Zoe (56:39):
yeah.

Heather (56:39):
So now we're like saying that marginalized people and people
with lower incomes are more at risk.
Their safety is more at risk because theyhave less money and the people that are
assholes get to keep driving them around.
It's insane.
Uber knows when andwhere it is most at risk.
For sexual violence.
So basically picking people upfrom bars, picking single women

(57:03):
up from bars, things like that.
They know which is obvious.
That's, yeah, that's obvious.
It's just like, but they know thatand they allow the lower tiered
cars to pick people up from the bar.
Drunk girls.

Zoe (57:16):
It's making me really feel really fucking weird right now,
knowing all that shit, to be honest.
Yeah.
Um, yep.
I don't like it.

Both (57:28):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (57:29):
Yeah.
Well, also going back to like, womenare never really seen, I think I've
only gotten two women Uber drivers in mylife and I was so excited to see them.

Heather (57:39):
Oh yeah.
Oh, and you're gonna, under thisstat is not gonna shock you at all.
Yeah.
But obviously there's way moremen, Uber drivers than women.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause men inherentlylove to drive or whatever,

Zoe (57:49):
but, well, it's just like, why would a woman wanna be an Uber driver?
They're.
God.
Oh God.
That's so risky as a womanto be alone in a car with, to
pick up strangers with a male.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No way.
Fucking, no way.
No way.
Even if you have the wheel,you're not in control.

Heather (58:03):
Well there's also like another article by this woman and she talks
about how she was an Uber driver.
Mm-hmm.
And she was assaulted so many times.
Yeah.
And terrified.
And like you kind of know like whenpeople are getting into your car, you
get a vibe and you kind of know like,fuck, this is not gonna be a good one.
And then you're stuck in a car with them.
Like, no, of course womendon't wanna be uber drivers.
Definitely not.
So there are more men.
Yeah.
And also like 98% of theassaults that happen are male

(58:30):
passengers or male drivers.
Yeah.
So like male passengerswill assault female drivers.
Yeah.
And male drivers as well.
Yeah.
But male drivers willassault female PA passengers.
Men are pretty safe.
Yeah.
I'm assuming the L-G-B-T-Qgroup is like not safe either.
Yeah, but also for other reasons too.
Harassment in general,but it's fucking crazy.

(58:50):
Well, I think that brings us back to.
Just what you and I were talking aboutthat like, it's so scary to think
back and be like, I gotta get myselfhome in the middle of the night.
Mm-hmm.
And like you risk your life alreadygetting into a car with a stranger.
But also like we

Zoe (59:08):
are risking our lives every day with drinking, with drinking.
Sure.
So it's like why?
Like that wasn't any scarierto me because like I'm already
risking my life drinking every day.
Sure.
But we also didn't know how fucking

Heather (59:20):
dangerous it is.
Yeah.
And how like it, I'm sorry, but ifyou assault somebody in your car or a
passenger assault somebody, that person,that driver or that passenger, never
get to fucking work for Uber again.
You cannot handle it.
Yeah.
You cannot handle havinga woman in your car.
Why?
Like.

Zoe (59:40):
Is there people who are like protesting this, like
saying, what the fuck Uber?
Like, can we not have these peoplethat are accused drive still?
Like what is happening with that?
So there

Heather (59:50):
was like an internal conflict at Uber where some
people were like, let go or quit.
Because some of the, itwasn't even just women.
Some of these people were sayingthat work there, we're saying,
Hey, we have all this data.
Yeah.
That not only shows who's a risky person.
Yeah.
A dangerous person.
It shows where these things take place.
It shows at what time we have this data.

(01:00:10):
We can also create policy and protocol.
Yeah.
That make it safe, safer for women.
And a lot of that would be fuckingfuck off if you're an assaulter.
Like you can't drive.
But they had all of this.
When the Trump administrationcame in this time.
I wonder if it's differentin Canada at all.
No, no.
I mean, there's less peoplein Canada, so there's just

(01:00:32):
obviously gonna be less crime.
Yeah.
But no, it's the same.
We have the same fucking shit everywhere.
Yeah.
But, um, oh, what was I gonna say?
Trump administration, when theTrump administration came in, they
just kinda stopped looking at it.
Hmm.
Like the funding for that.
Just kind of, we're not doing it.
Like they are not interested

Zoe (01:00:48):
and, and there's, this needs to be more of a forefront issue
because that is insane to me.
Mm-hmm.
That these people are continuingto drive and you know that they're
fucking sick and gonna keep doing it.

Heather (01:01:01):
Oh, I want, you know, they're not

Zoe (01:01:02):
gonna stop.
And I wanted to say,

Heather (01:01:03):
because

Zoe (01:01:03):
they got in trouble a little bit.

Heather (01:01:05):
No, they're not gonna stop.
Yeah.
And I bring up the Trump administrationjust to say that a lot of his policies
cut, um, funding to like safetyprotocols and this, things like that.
Yeah.
So that's why that's relevant.
Um, yeah.
It says here.
The cheapest rides are thehighest risk testing in 2018.
Showed Uber could predict and prevent 15%of all assaults on basic ride options, but

(01:01:30):
still dispatches their high risk drivers.

Zoe (01:01:33):
Yeah.
Like, it's just like, no, I feellike no one's talking about this.
I haven't heard of that.
Mm-hmm.
Have you ever gotten into anUber like I being a sober person?
I, well, before when I was gettinginto Ubers, I didn't feel a thing
'cause I was drinking all the timeand I wasn't, I never felt unsafe
because I was so out of my mind nowbeing sober and getting into an Uber.

(01:01:57):
Mm-hmm.
I feel anxious all the time.
I, I always thought that it wasbecause I don't have control.
Mm-hmm.
When I'm biking home or if I'mwalking home or if I'm taking a
streetcar, I feel like I'm in morecontrol than when I'm in an Uber.

Both (01:02:14):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (01:02:14):
With a man.
And I thought that was just it.
But it must also be the fact thatyes, I am in a car with a stranger.

Heather (01:02:21):
Yeah.

Zoe (01:02:23):
It is a weird situation and I do now feel like the, I don't take Ubers
often, but when I do, it's like, oh, Ido get a little bit sick in my tummy.

Heather (01:02:33):
Yeah.

Zoe (01:02:34):
I thought it was the control thing for me, but it probably is also
the stranger in a car with me as well.

Heather (01:02:40):
Yeah, 100%.
They, they did do a rollout inSaudi Arabia actually, where
it was women drivers beingmatched with women passengers.
Yeah.
Probably because there is moreof a issue with women's safety.
Yeah.
So it was like, okay, here we go.
And then they were gonnaimplement it in the states.
That was also cut because of Trump.

(01:03:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because not Trump didn't cut it.
Yeah.
Uber cut it.
Yeah.
Because when he came back intooffice, the second term, the
funding, this is when, no, no, no.
This is when they weregonna roll that out.
Women for women drivers.
Right.
And then they said.
With everything politically going on rightnow, it's just not the time for our image.
They said that like with, witheverything political going on in the

(01:03:22):
world, it's gonna cause like a genderdivide and fights and like, oh, well
now we have to hire women becauseyou know, DEI and like all that.
So they're just like, we're not doing it.

Zoe (01:03:34):
I'm sure that would employ a lot of women because if I was a woman and I
needed like extra money Yeah, for sure.
I would be a woman Uber driver if I wereknew I was only picking up other women.
Yeah, for sure.
But also then what's the lineof like what if you're a woman
picking up another woman?
Yeah.
And she has her boyfriend withher, then the lines get blurry.

Heather (01:03:55):
Yeah.
And maybe you can't do that.
Yeah.
Like maybe.
And, and, and it's not crazy.
I think we got some backlash on TikTok.
Of course.
Yeah.
Because we talked about how I feel.
I was in a car with like a professionalmoay Thai bear knuckle fighter.
Yeah.
And I was saying that like, that'scrazy that I'm in a car with a
strange man who could kill me.
Yeah.

(01:04:15):
Like, I don't know this person.
And then people were like,well, fuck you men, not all men.
And you're like, okay.
But I, um, it's super fucking relevantbecause that's what we were talking about.
Yeah.
And that's why we bring

Zoe (01:04:26):
this up to like say, Hey guys, no, we're not wrong.
Yeah.
All women are scared inUbers no matter what.
I'm sorry.
And also like, yeah.
If you are getting into an Uber, like thisis not of like, don't get into an Uber
because like then you're gonna walk home.
And the risk there is.
Probably higher thanwell going into an Uber.

(01:04:48):
Yeah.
Would you say like, walking home ismore risky than getting into an Uber?
100%. So go, still go into Ubers guys.
Yeah.
So just be mindful and be aware thatthis is happening and share your
location with someone that is awake

Heather (01:05:03):
and yes, share your location with someone that's awake.
And also like, maybe we're notgetting into Uber's drunk on our own.
And I know that that is No, but

Zoe (01:05:11):
that's like a, I know that that's gonna happen no matter what.

Heather (01:05:14):
I know.
But also maybe for other people listeningthat are like, oh, that's my friend.
She's going home.
Maybe you'll listen to this andbe like, actually, you know what,

Zoe (01:05:20):
go with her.

Heather (01:05:21):
Yeah.
Or like take two stops.
The, the safety of it all.
Yeah.
Because we can't sit here and be like,well, well stop taking Ubers or Good luck.
Yeah.
I also am like remiss to say like,don't take the cheapest Uber, because
that's not fucking accessible.
Yeah.
No it's not.
It's really not.
Uber's so expensive and.
So you can't say, don't take the cheapest.
And also

Zoe (01:05:41):
Uber is so expensive on a at 2:00 AM on a Friday, Saturday night.
Yeah.
It's like 40 bucks sometimesto get to one end of the city.
Yeah.
Plus.
Mm-hmm.
So it's like, yeah, you haveto take the cheapest option.

Both (01:05:53):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (01:05:54):
Just you have to, hopefully you're not blackout drunk.
Yeah.
Well, or hopefully you alwayshave your location shared with

Heather (01:06:00):
someone.
Uber has all these statisticsand they can prevent.
Assault.
They can prevent this kind of to crime.
They not, they choose not to sothat they can keep profiting.
Yeah.
They literally put people at risk mm-hmm.
To make money, which isfucking gross and insane.

Zoe (01:06:17):
But that is like all, everything, big companies.
Yeah.
You know, like this isn't aabnormal or unusual situation.
Yeah.
This is the way the worldworks, unfortunately.

Heather (01:06:28):
Yeah.
And if Uber's not gonna tell you howto keep yourself fucking safe, we will.
Yeah.
I have one of those birdie alarms.
Yes.
That when you pull it, it fucking screams.
Good.
Do you have one?
No, I actually get you one.
I love it.
But those are great.
Keep it in your purse.

Zoe (01:06:40):
Yeah.

Heather (01:06:40):
Also, like we don't have, we're not allowed to carry pocket.
Well, the line

Zoe (01:06:45):
is blurry with

Heather (01:06:45):
that.
The line is so blurry in this states.
I remember during COVID.
Yeah.
Do you remember those girls on TikTok thatwere making like self-defense key chains?
Yeah.
I was like, fuck, I want one of these.
But we are, we're not allowed to have.
Knives and we're not allowedto have pepper spray.
Even

Zoe (01:06:57):
if, if someone assaulted us and we knifed them, we would get in trouble.
Which is so insane of Canada.

Heather (01:07:04):
Yeah,

Zoe (01:07:05):
yeah,

Heather (01:07:05):
yeah.
It really is.
I'm like, I should beallowed to defend myself.
Yeah.
But then you get into the like, Ishould be allowed to defend myself.
I want a gun.
And like, yeah.
We don't want it done.
We don't want

Zoe (01:07:15):
guns.

Heather (01:07:16):
I just share

Zoe (01:07:17):
my location with a lot of my friends.
Yeah.
And, and then do you texteach other when you get home?
Like if you're all leaving together?
I mean, like I feel like nowI don't because I'm sober.
Yeah.
Okay.
I feel like my friendsthat are drinking, yes.
But when I left my friends lastweek, uh, my friend was like, please
text me when you're home, becauseI was biking, so I texted that.
Yeah.
I think I do that to you too.

(01:07:37):
Yeah.
I'd be very nervous.
I also track you.
I was like, also I, we track each other.
Yeah.
We're like, okay, everyone is home safe.
Like I have all my friends on my.
Map.
And I'm like, okay,everyone is in their beds.
Goodnight.
Yeah.
Shut my eyes.
That's cute.
That's a really, you just like,

Heather (01:07:52):
goodnight.
Goodnight, goodnight.
Goodnight night.
Everyone is in the right.
Love you.

Zoe (01:07:57):
This one is not, but we don't, we're okay with

Heather (01:07:59):
that.
Excuse me.
Where are you?
Did you fall down?
Yeah, she's with a boy.
Fantastic.
Okay.
I, uh, I, the birdie alarm is great also.
We're not allowed to have pepper spray,but honestly I don't really give a fuck.
But I have bear spray.
Bear spray.
You're allowed to

Zoe (01:08:12):
carry that coyote spray

Heather (01:08:14):
and coyote.
That would be amazing.
And they're just likea little tampon tube.
Like it's just little, you justput it in your little pocket.
Yeah.
I will say one thing that's extremelyhard for people and those people being me.
Yeah.
I am like a polite girl.
I've been raised to keep myhead down and be polite now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm swearing all over the internet.
Who gives a fuck?
But like in social situations,I'm super polite with strangers.

(01:08:35):
I'm super polite.
I give, are you

Zoe (01:08:36):
talkative?

Heather (01:08:37):
Fuck no.
When I was drunk, I was, I waslike, let's get the life story baby.
Yeah.
And now I'm like,

Zoe (01:08:42):
yeah, I sh I put my headphones on, I shut up.
I don't know if the right thing isto like not engage with them because
maybe then they're like, okay,I am gonna leave this one alone.
She's not cool,

Heather (01:08:52):
you know?
Well, the scary thing aboutthat is that you never know
what's gonna trigger someone.
So ignoring a man might make them go off.
Sure.
Or speaking with a man might make themfeel like you're, um, asking for it.
Yeah.
Flirting with them and you wanna befucked in the back of their weird car.

Zoe (01:09:05):
Oh my God.
I didn't tell you, but I wasat the pool the other day.
Mm-hmm.
And then my pool like, looks atthis building that's being built,
like construction guys are there.
Mm-hmm.
And this one guy was like, Hey,to me at like tanning at my pool.
And I was like feelinglike I was in a good mood.
I said, Hey back.
And I threw like a little heart.
Just silly, cute.

(01:09:26):
And then he did the heart backand then he kept fucking yelling
at me throughout the whole day.
I said, oh, this was thebiggest mistake of my life.
Did you ignore the rest of the thing?
I ignored the rest.
Yeah, but he continued, but he continued.
He kept yelling.
He kept like trying to wave medown throughout like the four
hours at I was at the pool.
I am just trying to be like niceand like funny and like cute.

(01:09:47):
That's not me saying hi and likethrowing you a heart is not me asking
for you to like fuck me, you know?
No.
It's just

Heather (01:09:56):
me trying to not immediately say.
Fuck you.
It's me trying to be like kindof nice and just, I'm just

Zoe (01:10:02):
like, Hey, like, what's up?
Yeah.
Have a, I'm at the pool.
Like whatever.
Fucking, yeah.
I'm just having a good time.
That doesn't invite you to harass methroughout the fucking rest of the day

Heather (01:10:14):
at the pool.
That's what I think.
I think that people don'tunderstand what no means.
No actually means.
Yeah.
It's like, yeah, like if

Zoe (01:10:19):
I'm ignoring you, take the hint baby.
This is also reminding me of, I was bikinghome on like a Saturday night and this
car like pulls up because there's traffic.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm just waiting there inthe bike and the guy just says
to me, how's biking tonight?
And I look forward and I don'tmake eye contact with him.
I don't even.
Like Twitch at all.
I'm just like, oh my God.

Heather (01:10:40):
Yeah.
But have you ever done that?
And then they go, fucking bitch.

Zoe (01:10:43):
Well, they, he just didn't say anything after.
Yeah.
I'm like, thank God.
But like,

Heather (01:10:48):
it shocks the men when you, it shocks them.
Don't engage.
That's why like in my olderage, age don't engage.
I'm doing my best to not engage.
Yeah.
Like someone cat called me theother day and I just was like,
this is an insane thing to do, toyell at a woman you don't know.
Yeah.
About her tits.
Like, that's super weird.
You about your tits.
Yeah.
And I was like, youfucking creepy pedophile.
I'm a child.
Um, you are baby.

(01:11:08):
You're so tiny, so small.
Thank you so much.
Um, when did I tell you aboutthe time I was in New York?
I'm in, I'm in New York a lot.
This episode?
Yes.
Who's a New York queen?
I was in New York and I was, Igot in a taxi and I was going
wherever the fuck I was going.
It was at night.
Probably like 11 though.
It wasn't super fucking late.
Yeah.
It's also New York, so I. Got in ataxi and like he was chatting and I

(01:11:32):
didn't wanna chat, but when he drove,this was like also kind of before
Uber or like in the midst of it.
But he drove up and I saw him go, like,he gave me like a wink and a nod and kind
of like in a lick your lips kind of way.
And I was like, oh, oh no.
But I'm like a kid.
I was probably like 19 and I was like,I have to get in this fucking car.
Got in the car.
I'm not going that far.
He's chatting now.

(01:11:52):
He's chatting.
What do you do?
What do you do?
You must be a model.
You must be a model really?
And like, no.
Yeah, I was not Must be a model.
Yeah.
It was not like that.
I was just, and I'mtrying to be fucking nice.
Yeah.
If I stop talking, you're gonnaget mad and call me a bitch.
It's happened before.

Both (01:12:06):
Yeah.

Heather (01:12:06):
So I finally pull up to where I need to go and I have this
feeling, I'm like, he's not gonnafucking let me outta the car.
I had that feeling.
Mm-hmm.
And so I grabbed the lock andwhen the lock is like pushed up.
So it was unlocked.
Yeah.
And I grabbed the lock and then I, andthen he locked it, but I was holding
it so all the other ones locked.
Yeah.
And I was holding this one up.
You're so smart.
I just knew he was, yeah.

(01:12:27):
I knew he was gonna fucking doit and I wasn't drinking at all.
Yeah.
Like I was super sober.
And then he was like, stay in the car.
And I, I was.
It's delusional, right?
Yeah.
Because you're like,this can't be happening.
Yeah.
And I was looking around to see maybe ifthere's like a bike or something happening
outside that I shouldn't, but I'm like,no, you're literally holding luck.
He wants you to stay in the fucking car.
Yeah.
And he was like, stay in the car.
Come on, come on.
Just stay with me.

(01:12:48):
And then I just like,I was like, fuck you.
And I opened the car and ran.
Ran.
Didn't pay.
No.
And there was a hotel and I like raninto the hotel and I was shaking.
Your inspiration

Zoe (01:12:59):
is really strong.
I will give you that.
It is really

Heather (01:13:02):
strong because we are witches.
Well, because, and wepractice the witchcraft.
And my mother is a witch.
Yes.
And my mother watches true crime andmy mother is the one who told us like,
if a car ever pulls up beside youand tells you to get in or I'll shoot
you, just tell them to shoot you.
She's like, 'cause you couldsurvive a gunshot wound to the
head more than you're gonna beable to survive being raped a man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well being raped and thenalso shot and killed.

(01:13:23):
But um, yeah, my intuition, Ireally fucking follow it and
I don't care at this point.
Sometimes I feel bad.
Yeah.
And then sometimes I'm like, for what?
Literally keeping myself safe.

Both (01:13:33):
Yeah.

Heather (01:13:33):
But that was a scary one.
I wish I had had something on me.
I, I, I, oh, what I was gonna say is thatI think women tend to wanna be polite and
not rock the boat and not cause chaos.
Right.
Especially when you're in thecar, a locked car with a man.
But I think if you feel uncomfortablein a car, you just get out.

(01:13:54):
You just, especially an Uber, becauseit's on your phone, they'll just,
they'll, you'll pay regardless.
But it's like, if you'reuncomfortable, it's okay.
It's use your voice and get the fuck out.
You don't have to stay withsomeone just to appease them.
It really is like.
Get the fuck outta the car.
You don't have to stay in the car.
Trust your intuition.
Yeah.
Your

Zoe (01:14:10):
intuition is usually right.
Yep.
It's not worth it to risk it.
It's not worth it.

Heather (01:14:16):
It really isn't.
And it's also like not okay tohave men be super fucking creepy
and give you a weird vibe.
I think the intuition piece.
Yeah.
Getting a little security alarm.
Just like being aware.
Yeah.
And I think that's the scary part ofbeing, about being like a drunk girl.
Yeah.
Is that like an Uber?

Zoe (01:14:32):
Nothing.
Ha.
Nothing matters to me if I'm drunk.
Well, I don't fucking care ifI'm gonna get raped and killed in
the back of a car, to be honest.
I don't, but Right.
We don't want that to happen to you.
No.
And some people do care.
Yeah.
But like, if.
If you're a drunk like me.
Yeah.
You wanna die anyways, so like, whatever.

Heather (01:14:51):
Sure.
But if you're not a drunk like meand Zoe and you don't wanna die
and you just wanna have fun withyour friends, but you're drunk.
Yeah.
You should be able to getinto a car and go home.
Like the car is supposedto be your safe haven.
Yeah.
Before you go home.

Zoe (01:15:03):
Yeah.
So there's things that you can setup to make sure you're safe and Yeah.
I don't want this to be likea fearmongering thing of
like be fearful at all times.
Like, I don't want that.
I just want to like,

Heather (01:15:14):
yeah.
I think there's a differencebetween present this.
Yeah.
And you shouldn't be scared.
You should be prepared.

Zoe (01:15:19):
Yeah.
And I think that's the truth.

Heather (01:15:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
As a woman walking aroundthis world, you, you do.
And I know that's a little bleak, butyou do need to be prepared and mm-hmm.
That's what I was gonna say.
Being a drunk girl and you needto have your wits about you.
I'm like, you fucking don't.
Like I would get intoa car and then be like.
Yeah, I know.
I'd be like, okay.
Like my wits are exhausted now.
Yeah.
But I will say like friends, partners,boyfriends, girlfriends just be parents.

(01:15:43):
Like whatever.
Yeah.
Whoever

Zoe (01:15:44):
you have that like has got you.
Like, you know who you have.
And just think like,

Heather (01:15:50):
people who have jobs, drivers, they're, they're still people.
Yeah.
And people fuck up.
And just because you work for acompany that is supposed to be safe
doesn't mean you're a safe person.
It means you're a personwho wants to make money.
Yeah.
So trust yourself, keep yourself safe.
And also we're fucking right.
So don't come for us in saying thatdriving in men, in cars of men is safe

(01:16:10):
because it's fucking not 400,000 assaults.
Okay.
It's fucking not.

Zoe (01:16:14):
Yeah.
That's insane.
That's really sad.

Heather (01:16:16):
But with all that said, Zoe Francisca Chan, thank you for being
such a good friend to me always.
And especially this week.
I love you so much.
I love you so much.

Zoe (01:16:25):
I'm here for you always.
I'm here for you always.
My little un drunkypoo-poos drunky pose, and

Heather (01:16:33):
I'm proud of

Zoe (01:16:34):
you.
I'm proud of you soon.
Proud of you.

Heather (01:16:36):
Proud of you.

Zoe (01:16:37):
Bye

Heather (01:16:37):
bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl Un Drunk.
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTokat Girl Un Drunk podcast and or send
me an email at [e-mail].
Good podcast.
Good pod.

(01:16:58):
Good pod.
God.
God, you're still so fucking tanned.
I know.
But then again, you're

Both (01:17:01):
tanning all the time.

Heather (01:17:03):
That's my, it's a lifestyle.
It slings out and so.