Welcome to the Womanhood

Heather and Zoe dig into their old rehab binders—flipping through worksheets, notes, and reflections that shaped their earliest days of sobriety. They revisit what still resonates, what makes them cringe, and how those pages continue to inform their journeys today.

This episode, with timestamps and extras, is available on Youtube here. 

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Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.

(00:26):
Should we get a little mocky going?

Zoe (00:27):
Let's do it.
Okay.
It's nine o'clock.
That means we need a Mocktail

Heather (00:31):
9:00 AM It's 9:00 AM Babies Mocktail time.
Okay.
So again, this week, Ednas,we're bringing her back.
We love her so much.
Today we're doing the mojito.
Did you like an alcoholic mojito?
I loved it.
You're gonna say loved it.
I liked every kind of alcohol.
I loved everything.
I liked it all.
I actually didn't like a mojito becauseI don't like salad in my drinks.
I don't like it.

(00:51):
It's as if like something flew in thereand now I'm like, oh, and it I don't like.
Yeah, but you're

Zoe (00:54):
not, maybe you were having like mojitos where they crunched up the.
Leafs too much and youwere drinking the leaves?

Heather (01:01):
Well, it just depends.
Like sometimes there's more,sometimes there's less, but I'm
just kind of like, ah, mint.
Yeah.
But, but it's not like a, it'snot a leafy, it's a minty.
Yeah, it's a leaf.
Yeah, I guess so.
Okay, so Edna's surf cold over ice.
Let's try these.

Zoe (01:14):
The moji, my boyfriend was drinking non-alcoholic mojitos last weekend.

Heather (01:19):
Oh

Zoe (01:21):
yeah.
With the, he drank two of them.
Oh my god.
Crazy boy.
Cheers.

Heather (01:25):
With the, um, did he get, put mint in them?

Zoe (01:28):
Yep.
There was mint in them.

Heather (01:30):
So what would a non-alcoholic mojito for him look like?

Zoe (01:33):
I mean, whatever this is.
I know, but he was making them, was he

Heather (01:36):
making them?
Oh, he bought them.
He,

Zoe (01:38):
we, uh, went out to this like fancy dinner.
What is, is,

Heather (01:42):
is,

Zoe (01:43):
is in this

Heather (01:44):
gin.
It doesn't

Zoe (01:45):
seem rum.
Rum extract, rum extract mint and lime.
I mean, it sounds great.
I'm excited.
Did you try it already?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Okay.
I like it.
I like it too.
Again, you don't really like,it doesn't taste like alcohol.
No.
Which I do like,

Heather (02:04):
we're two for two with Edna's now.

Zoe (02:06):
Edna's.
Okay.

Heather (02:08):
I, if you wanna try, if you wanna try Edna's mocktails, go
over to edna's cocktails.com andtype in Code Edna's 10 for 10% off.
Thanks, Edna.
We've tried the Paloma and theMojito so far and I'm thrilled.
I like them both.
Mm-hmm.
I saw weapons last night.

Zoe (02:24):
Oh my God.
You did?
Yeah.
That was uh, I watched it last weekend.
That was good.
It was really good.
I like it a lot.
I'm into that.
Did you watch it as a theater?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
With who?

Heather (02:34):
By myself.
By yourself?
Yeah.
I like to go.
I like to go alone.
I don't like to, I used to

Zoe (02:40):
go alone to the movies all the time

Heather (02:42):
also.
'cause I hate being on other people'sschedules when I'm going to the movie.
Yeah.
I hate it.
Especially if I'm like in traffic.
I'm just like, no, I'lljust get there by myself.
Fuck it.
That's nice.
Do you eat a popcorn?
Uh huh.
Fuck yeah.
Layered butter.
No.
No.
Too much.
Too much.
I don't.
Um, yeah, it starts to giveme a headache after a while.
Okay.
And then I just feel really gross.
Yeah.
But I fucking love popcorn.
Yeah.
Fuck yeah.

(03:02):
It's good.
I never eat like any of it though.
And then I feel weird.
I'm like, do I just throw it out?

Zoe (03:07):
But I'm excited for watching more scary movies.
Me

Heather (03:10):
too.
It's spooky season.
It's time.
There's more.
I wanna see the Long Walk.
I wanna see Shuffle.
But Shuffle.
We can't really watch.
I wanna see Shuffle probablybecause it's like an American
thing, but Shuffle is cool.
Shuffle is about, well you guys letme know if you've heard about this,
but I've only heard of it as like theFlorida Shuffle, but I guess shuffle
in terms of like rehab and addiction.

(03:30):
I think it's like more than justFlorida, which of course it is.
Mm-hmm.
But what I know about Shuffle, thelike concept of it is basically rehabs
in Florida are just profiting off of.
Addicts.
Mm-hmm.
And you're not actually giving them thehelp they need, and you're kind of just,
they're in a rotation, so you're justshuffling people from rehab to rehab
and then they're just making money.

Zoe (03:51):
Yeah.
And I wonder if it's because like inFlorida there's lots of like rich addicts
who can just, like, their mommy anddaddies can just keep paying and paying.
Yeah.
You know?

Heather (03:59):
It's true.
That's probably true.
And then I also bet there'slike government support.
Yeah.
And then they're not reallykeeping track of anybody, so, yeah.
Except for, you know, peoplewith specific last names and
they'll hunt you right down.
God.

Zoe (04:14):
Yeah.
So is that supposed tobe a scary movie though?
No.
No.
No.
It's, it's a documentary.
It's a documentary.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.

Heather (04:19):
And, and Arian was asking me too, she's like, I
don't know if that happens here.
Like, 'cause everything is sodifferent with our healthcare
and funding and how things work.
So I don't know how different therehab system is here than over there.

Zoe (04:30):
Mine was definitely not a luxury rehab.
Yours like presented as itwas, but it was all fake.

Heather (04:35):
Yeah.
But we did have like our own rooms andour own bathrooms and like it was nice.
Was yours, yours islike a building, right?
Like mine was a cottage?

Zoe (04:43):
Yeah.
What was yours?
Mine was like a build,like two, three buildings.
Okay.
I think one building for theboys, one building for the
girls, and then a conjoined.

Heather (04:52):
Okay.
Like sister wives?
Yeah, like Aous family.

Zoe (04:56):
And if you didn't pay extra, you were roomed with someone else and that
room didn't have a tv so you would haveto watch TV in like the common area.
Oh.
But if you paid more, then yougot a room by yourself and a tv.

Heather (05:10):
Was there a bathroom in that room?

Zoe (05:12):
No.
Oh.
Shared bathrooms.
So what

Heather (05:14):
did you have?

Zoe (05:15):
I got my own room.
Yeah, I did too.

Heather (05:17):
I didn't know.
I didn't know.
And like the difference ofpay, I mean it is a lot, but.
I think it

Zoe (05:22):
was an extra thousand to get your own room.

Heather (05:24):
I think ours was like, I think ours was like the base, the, the, the
smallest was like two of you in a room.
Mm-hmm.
No bathroom in the room.
That was like one price.
And then it was like 5,000 morefor like your own room, but shared
bathroom and then 5,000 more foryour room in a, in a bathroom.
And you got that one?
Yeah.
Yeah.

(05:44):
Yeah.
I think actually those ones were theonly ones available when I was going.
Got it.
But I'm like, that's fine.
'cause I also didn't know, like, Ididn't know what rehab was gonna be.
I was like, am I gonna be with abunch of like detoxing meth heads?
Yeah.
And I'm gonna be like in thecorner, like trying to, you know?
Yeah.
Like my life got sober.
I know it wasn't like that at all.

Zoe (06:02):
Well, when I pulled up to my rehab, I heard like screaming.
Yeah.
So like that was a bad sign.
Do you know what that was?
I have no idea.
Mm-hmm.
I think like there was somepeople who were deaf losing it.
Like losing it.
Yeah.
So it probably was someone just like.
Crying maybe.
Maybe the scream, maybe thecry sounded like a scream.

Heather (06:23):
Yeah.
Did you have anyone come inthat was going through detox?
Like as they were coming in?
Anyone like really struggling?

Zoe (06:29):
There was one guy who I think got brought to the hospital.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know exactly why, but he wentand it was like a whole drama Who?
Drama and rehab.
So fun.
Someone at my

Heather (06:41):
rehab died.

Zoe (06:42):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
'Heather: cause she, I wasn't there.
It, it's, I mean, it's in the article,but it's like she has epilepsy.
When you're detoxing from alcohol,you can have seizures, so you
need to be watched all the time.
She wasn't, she had a seizure.
She died and hours and hours andhours later an ambulance was called.
It's actually so crazy.

(07:02):
It's really crazy.
I think about it all the timethat I'm just like, we put.
So much.
We put everything, I put allof my trust, my parents trust.
Yeah.
Everything into this facility.
All you have to do at arehab is your fucking job.
Yeah.
All you have to do is see a personfor 30 days and then they go Yeah.
And talk to them and therapizethem and make them better.

(07:26):
That's all you have to fucking do.
Like it's not that hard, but whenyou start fucking with people's
drugs and taking Adderall and stayingup all night and wanting to party
together rather than check on.
Yeah.
But that's where your rehabwas not like a legit place.
Like it was kind of fucked up, but that,

Heather (07:44):
but it is a legit place.
Yeah.
They all are like, I know.
You don't have to be under thegovernment like supervised.
Yeah.
You can start a readingand that's where the rules

Zoe (07:53):
like get blurry though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because

Heather (07:56):
junkies and addicts are often othered, so it's like who
cares what's going on with them.
They got themselves there.
Yeah.
I'm sure it's not gonna bea great recovery, but like.
You made your bed.
It's like, no, no.

Zoe (08:05):
I think when I was detoxing, someone came in every hour.

Heather (08:09):
Oh really?

Zoe (08:09):
Yeah.

Heather (08:10):
Yeah.
Were you detoxing hard or were you okay?

Zoe (08:13):
I was mostly just like sweating and having bad dreams.
Yeah.
And like throwing up and like not,weren't throwing up eating weren.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
There was, I was reading one pageof my thing and uh, something like
I threw up after intentions, whichlike, we did intentions every morning.
Okay.
I don't know.

Heather (08:31):
You threw up after intentions.
Yeah.

Zoe (08:34):
She was throwing up a lot.
Think what?
The first

Heather (08:36):
week,

Zoe (08:37):
I think.
Yeah.

Heather (08:39):
I wasn't really throwing up.
I was good.
My detox was fine.

Zoe (08:42):
Well, because you weren't drinking before you went.

Heather (08:45):
I drank the day before I went.
I just didn't drink that morning.

Zoe (08:49):
That morning.
Yeah.
Got it.

Heather (08:51):
But my, my detox was never like my withdrawal, it
wouldn't have lasted that long.
Right.
But some people said, but alsoyou were drinking harder than me.
Like you were drinking.
Hard liquor.
True.
And I feel like there'sgotta be a difference.
That's true.
It's be difference.
My friend, my, my friend Kayla, she,when, when she fucking goes through
withdrawal, it is coming from her toes.
Yeah.
And her toes are in hell.

(09:11):
Yeah.
Like it is vile.
Yeah.
But I'm not really like that.
I'll just, I don't know.
Maybe I would just softly die.

Zoe (09:20):
Goodnight everybody.

Heather (09:22):
Okay.
Zoe, how are you?
How's your mental health?

Zoe (09:24):
My mental health?
I didn't even think about this.
How am I doing?
I guess there's just like a lot goingon and trying to like manage everything.
Mm-hmm.
I am going to London, England next week.
Yeah.
So I think just trying to get everythingdone so I can just go there and

(09:45):
then not think about anything else.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, just trying tomake it to then and staying like
steady paced and under control.
Um, do you have any nerves

Heather (09:57):
about traveling to London by yourself?
No, I don't.
The plane doesn't bother you.
No, it's good.
I actually,

Zoe (10:05):
I do need advice on how to sleep on that flight though.
I might need like amelatonin or something.
I was gonna say, are

Heather (10:12):
you cool with melatonin?

Zoe (10:13):
I haven't taken it

Heather (10:15):
ever.
Is this okay?
Yeah, I mean, it, it, it is reallynice and if you've never taken
it, it'll probably really work.
Okay.
Um, I need it.
An over.
Can you gimme some?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I'm a pharmacy.
You.
I'm a pharmacist.
Perfect.
People are so responsible with theirdrugs when they're not addicts.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Can it be me?
No.
I'm like, you have oxy.
Yeah.
You have whatever in your cabinet.

(10:35):
I want that.
You have a Xanax in there,you're not taking it all day.

Zoe (10:38):
Yeah.
I think like, I just have neverwanted to, like, even when I was
in rehab, everyone would be like,so do you want melatonin to sleep?
And I was like, no.
Like I don't really want to.
'cause I, they were givingus Trazodone to sleep.
Really?
Which is like

Heather (10:50):
so intense.
Oh my god.
People were throwing up on that too.

Zoe (10:53):
Yeah.
But I do wanna take somethingfor that flight because I do
have to be okay in the morning.
So I leave at like 10:00 PM andthen I land at 10:00 AM London time.

Heather (11:02):
Are you, um, are you good sleeping on flights?

Zoe (11:06):
Well, Maddie has this like neck pillow thing that I
think I'm gonna ask her to use.
Okay.
Like this, that mixed with a melatonin.
I think I should be okay.

Heather (11:14):
Okay.

Zoe (11:14):
Yeah, I

Heather (11:15):
think you should be fine too.
You seem like someone whowould get like nice and cozy.
Yeah.
Are you on an aisle?
No idea.
What do you mean?

Zoe (11:23):
What do you mean?
No idea?
I just pick my seats when I checkin the day before I fly cheap.

Heather (11:32):
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Wait, so wait.
When you book your flight, it doesn'timmediately take you to the seats.
I

Zoe (11:38):
think it like will choose it like when I check

Heather (11:41):
in the night before.
Oh my God.
I'm al I choose choosing.
I'm choosing.
What if you get trapped in the middle?
I think if

Zoe (11:45):
you choose

Heather (11:45):
it when you book it, you have to pay my extra, right?
I don't know.
Maybe it depends onthe flight or whatever.
I can't remember.
But what if you're in themiddle then I'm in the middle.

Zoe (11:55):
Okay.
I had a thought about you yesterday.
I also don't check my bag.
I only do a carry on.
That's fine.
That's great.
Love that for you.
And I've never like leveled up my seat.
Like I've never done that.
You've never been upgraded.
I've never paid more tolike level it up at all.
Once you do.

Heather (12:14):
It's really hard to come back.

Zoe (12:16):
It's because my parents have

Heather (12:17):
never, you know.
Yeah.
My parents are, we didn't either.
Cheap as fuck.
Well, my dad didn't flywhen we were growing up.
Yeah.
My dad's afraid of flying.
So if we did fly, which was so seldom itwould be me, my mom, my sister, and coach.
Yeah.
And then when I was flying New York,Boston, that was always just Porter.
Yeah.
And then with my ex, we went toLondon and we got bumped up to first

(12:38):
and I was like, 'cause I think Ihad paid for premium or something.
Okay.
So it's like a little extra leg room.
Yeah.
But we got bumped upand I was like, oh fuck.
I'm like, this is, yeah.
This is the height of luxury.
This is what I want.
Yeah.
And so now every time I fly I amlike, can I, or like me and my sister,
we flew first in October, but wehadn't flown in like three years.

(13:01):
And we're like, she was like,okay, well let's save up for
this and then we'll just fly.
It's like going to, it's likegoing on, um, air Emirates.
I'm like, it's like.
$10,000, $15,000. It's crazy.
It's just like why

Zoe (13:13):
I would, I can't justify paying like an extra $5,000 just to be a
little bit more comfy on the flight.

Heather (13:20):
I know you say that and then you find out just how much more comfy you are.

Zoe (13:25):
But when I'm a millionaire, sure.
I'll do it.
Right.
Yeah.
But like right now, no.
So yeah.
I'm, I'm fine.
Mm-hmm.
I feel like I'm steady.
I miss my boyfriend.
I won't see him for another twoweeks, which is sad, but it's fine.
It's fine.
I'm fine.
Um, I would say I'm like a six.
Hey, love

Heather (13:46):
a six.
That's not bad.
Yeah.

Zoe (13:48):
What about you?
How are you feeling?
What's going on in the heather brain?
Uh, I'm kind of tired and annoyed.
Yeah.

Heather (13:55):
Um,

Zoe (13:57):
I'm good.

Heather (13:58):
Tired and annoyed.
Yeah.
There's just a lot.
There's a lot to do.
Have you been sleeping?
Good.
Good.
Yeah, but I'm waking up really tired.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
I'm not really feeling rested.
Right.
There's so much going on and sometimesI just wanna be like, you know what?
Everyone get away.
Yeah.
Not you.
No, but I'm fine.
I would say I'm like at a five.
I feel like nothing is like terrible.
Nothing is like fantastic orthings are both, and I'm just like,

(14:21):
well just sit in the middle here.
I'm good.

Zoe (14:22):
Yeah.
It seems like a weird time.
I think it's weird for me too,because I'm getting my period like
tomorrow or the next day probably too.
So it's just like I feela little bit groggy.
Is that, is that what it is?
I mean, I'm definitely gettingmy period on probably Sunday.
Let's see, let's see whatmy birth control says.

Heather (14:42):
Oh, it's a 22nd.
Yeah, I'm getting it on Tuesday.
It's coming.
This is why.
Yeah.
That's why I'm in a real mode.
Yeah, we're just, we're fine.
Fine.
Um, uh, you know who's not fine?
Lil Nas?
Lil Nas X Thursday morning,August 21st, around five 50.
Mm-hmm.
Am Nas.
That's Heather time.
What are you doing up, areyou preparing for a podcast?

(15:04):
He's out on Ventura Boulevard.
Is that what it's called?
Ventura?
Mm-hmm.
In la walking down the street.
Strutting down the street.
He was seen with, um, atraffic cone on his head.
Yeah, he was in his littleundies and cowboy boots.
And I mean, the video, I'm like giggling,but the, he's just so cute and sweet
and I love him, but I'm like, NAS.

(15:25):
Yeah.
So he's arrested and now he'sbeen brought to the hospital
for like a possible overdose.

Zoe (15:30):
Yeah.
'cause people were like calling thecops and saying There's like a naked
man on the street running around.
I acting a fool.
I wouldn't even know

Heather (15:37):
if that it

Zoe (15:37):
was

Heather (15:38):
nas.
Yeah.
If you're not expecting it.
Like even if it was Beyonce.
Yeah.
You'd go, well that's not Beyonce.
Yeah.
That's a cowboy.
You know what I mean?
With a cone on her head.
But yeah, it um.
Earlier that day, I guesshe had been seen at a hotel.
Mm-hmm.
He was not a guest at that hoteland he was in the lobby acting
erratically and like talking andyelling and then taking his shirt off.

(16:02):
There's a lot of nudity goingon with whatever drug he's on.
I mean, he is

Zoe (16:05):
like on stage naked at all times, so he is very comfortable with his body.

Heather (16:10):
But if you're comfortable with yourself on
stage, like that's a performance.
Yeah.
You're not then like a nudist.
But yeah, performing onthe stage is different.
It's a very different thing than walking

Zoe (16:20):
around at 5:00 AM naked on the street.
Yeah, I agree.

Heather (16:23):
Yeah, that's very different.
And that's not like a, oh well, youknow, I'm just wanted to be free.
It's like, this is drugs.
This is you not understanding.
Yeah.

Zoe (16:31):
He didn't look terrible in the video.
Like he didn't look strung out.
No, I didn't

Heather (16:35):
think.
I'm assuming he's doing, I'massuming he is doing poly drugs.
Yeah.
Like I'm assuming it'smultiple, like Yeah.
What makes you happy like that?
Like coke, meth?
Ketamine.
I'm assuming they're allon ketamine, by the way.
Yeah.
So I'm assuming just that mixture.
No.
'cause he wasn't violent.
No.
He was just like out and about, likehe was having a good time, but it

(16:58):
wasn't, but he wasn't in his head.
Yeah.
You could tell he wasn't there.
No, no.
He was fully on something.
But when I read the thing thatwas like he, they took him to the
hospital for a possible overdose.
I'm like, I don't thinkthat he's, I overdosing.
Think he's

Zoe (17:11):
overdosing.
I think they just need tolike put him somewhere.
Yeah.
Because he's famous and like, I thinkthey needed to control the situation.
Well

Heather (17:17):
I also think like there's just so much stigma around
drug use and like miseducationthat like that is a drug trip.
Mm-hmm.
Like that's not a drug overdose.
Yeah.
I think, I don't know whatthe definition of overdose is,
but it takes you the fuck out.
Mm-hmm.
He wasn't passed out on the street.
No.
He was very cognizant.
The thing about the story that Ifind that gives me pause is he's

(17:39):
seen earlier that in the day at ahotel, like in the middle of the day

Zoe (17:42):
mm-hmm.

Heather (17:43):
At a hotel, people know who he is.
He's being erratic, he'sacting like he's on drugs.
It's similar to me, to Liam Payne.
Mm-hmm.
And that whole saga.
Yeah.
It's like we're we're, we're running itback now and we're reverse engineering.
Where did this start?
Who has seen him today?
When did your friends last see you?
He, there was something he wasdealing with this past year

(18:05):
with like his mental health.
He had like some facialparalysis that happened.
Okay.
That could be multiple things.
That could be.
Reaction to drugs.
Yeah.
Also, a lot of people get it whenthey're stressed the fuck out.
True.
And your brain just goes like, I'mgonna put this part of my body to sleep.

Zoe (18:20):
Yeah.
It's also weird that he was at a hotel inLA because wouldn't he have a house in la?
But I feel like they're always doing that.
Yeah, they're always at a hotel.
They're always at

Heather (18:29):
a hotel.
There must be something vibeyabout like going to the hotel
that makes them feel like rich.
Or maybe if you're like me and yourhouse is a mess, you just wanna like get

Zoe (18:36):
out of the house.
That's also true.
I also did love.
Or you wanna party?
I don't know.
Yeah, I did go to a lot of hotelswhen I was getting fucked up too.
Mm. I don't What were you doing?
Well, I guess like in Sarnia, I wasn'twanting to get fucked up at my house
with a bunch of guys over like, 'causemy parents were there, so we would
just like end up at a hotel room.

Heather (18:57):
Mm-hmm.
You and a bunch of guys.

Zoe (18:58):
Well, me and like my boyfriend.
Well there was one time me and myboyfriend and his friend got a hotel
room and we all started having sex.

Heather (19:06):
Oh

Zoe (19:06):
yeah.

Heather (19:07):
Was it fun?

Zoe (19:08):
We were all on coke.

Heather (19:10):
Was it fun?
Like, did you initiate, like, wereyou like, let's do this, this is fun.
And then it was like, yeah,

Zoe (19:16):
looking back on it, it was not fun at all.
Mm-hmm.
But like, I guess in themoment I thought it was fun.
Okay.
Do

Heather (19:21):
you regret that?
Yeah.

Zoe (19:23):
I don't regret it.
Yeah.
But it's just like,

Heather (19:25):
ew, it is.
Ew.
I don't know that there's like,honestly, I don't think there's
been one threesome in my life that Ilike sit back and go, you know what?
Fantastic.
So thrilled.
I'm like, I know.
Cool.
It's fine that I did that, but I'm notlike that changed my life in any way.
Well, it's because we needto have a sober threesome.
I don't know if I wanna do that.
Yeah.
Well, no.
Right.

(19:46):
Okay.
No, I do wanna do that, butnot with like strangers.
Okay.
Not with a stranger.
I don't think so.
Not right now.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I'm being so weird with sexright now where I'm like, I
don't even know like what I want.
I, well, I think Heatheris on a celibacy train.
I don't know about that, but Idid jerk off twice yesterday.
Yeah.
Once in my bed.
And then I said, you knowwhat this vibrator is?
What a proof.
I took it in the shower.

(20:06):
Ooh.
It's nice.
What position in the shower.
Well, I start standing'cause I'm a soldier.
Okay.
And then eventually I, I eithersit on that little bench Yeah.
Or I just go on my knees.
Go on your knees.
Yeah.
'cause then I'm gonna, you know, Idon't wanna fall down, hit my head.

(20:26):
Oh, it's nice.
And then the water.
Okay.
Because I have like a rain shower.
Nice.
That sounds magical.
I know.
I love to shower.
I love a shower.
She loves to be clean.
Let's go back.
He's walking around a hotel and I justa, I'm a little bit like the perception
I have of Hollywood and musiciansand these famous people is that they

(20:46):
have groupies with them all the time.
Groupies, liaisons, people like security.
Mm-hmm.
I assume that they're with them.
I know in Liam Payne's casethere was a lot of people around.
Yeah.
I don't know Nas like, I don'tknow if he was by himself, but
I'm just like, if people in LA arereporting that he's at this hotel,
why doesn't anyone come and get him?
Well, you can't be in a hotelacting, acting erratically.

(21:07):
I think.

Zoe (21:08):
The stigma around drugs and like the shame, like everyone's
like, oh, like he's fucked up again.
But they should have called

Heather (21:13):
the cops then at the hotel.

Zoe (21:15):
Yeah,

Heather (21:16):
they

Zoe (21:16):
should

Heather (21:16):
have.
Yeah.
And I don't understand why they didn't,so I don't know what happened with Liam
Payne that was in, except Brazil or Spain.
That was somewhere around there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wanna

Zoe (21:25):
say Barbados, but it's definitely not Barbados.
Barcelona maybe,

Heather (21:28):
but I, I don't know if they're co, but I'm just
like, what is this pattern?
Yeah.
Of people acting erratically ormaybe before they kill themselves
or before they, you know, haveoverdose, a drug overdose or like fall

Zoe (21:40):
off a balcony.

Heather (21:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Or crash their car.
Like there's always behaviorthat leads up to it that I'm

Zoe (21:46):
like, maybe the people at the hotel are so used to seeing people
getting fucked up and they don't wannacall the cops again because it's like,
oh, this guy is just fucked up again.
Like, here we go.

Heather (21:55):
That's a good point.
Like they've

Zoe (21:56):
called the cops too many times and nothing has come out of it,
so they're like, okay, whatever.

Heather (22:01):
That's a good point.
We're also like.
In la mm-hmm.
At like a nice, youknow, like a posh hotel.
I would be probably quite, well noin any situation if, if there isn't
like a violent situation going on.
Mostly just like a mental health.
I don't know if I'm callingthe cops on a black gentleman.
Yeah.
I don't know if I'm doing that.
That feels, yeah.
I don't wanna, I add more harm to thissituation and I wonder what you said.

(22:25):
Maybe it is a desensitization.
Yeah.
They're seeing this shitall the time or, yeah.
If it's a little bit like,what am I supposed to do?
I don't.
Yeah.
And if people know it's Nas, you'relike, well, isn't this what you guys do?
Like you guys just do drugs andthey just party all the time.
That's what artists do.
Yeah.
But I'm like, I think thathe's only 26 years old.
Yeah.
He's, he's a child.
Yeah.

(22:45):
Yeah.
A little baby.
Like na na come to the

Zoe (22:48):
other side come so Well, I'm assuming he will.

Heather (22:50):
Well, you asked me this morning, you're like, do
you think he'll go to rehab?
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, he'll probably go for the look.
Yeah.
And then he'll probably go againeventually when he is like, ready.
Yeah.
But like Pete.
Like Pete.
Yeah.
We'll get into Pete.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I don't know.
I hope he's okay.
It just feels like you get to a placewhere now you're walking around naked.
This isn't just a weird drug trip.

(23:11):
This is like, you've beengoing and going and going.
It is not to for sure.
Yeah.
Like I've

Zoe (23:16):
definitely been walking around naked.

Heather (23:17):
Yeah.
Katya talks about this too, that Katyawas like running down fucking like
Santa Monica Boulevard, naked on meth.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And like just anytimeyou're outside unclothed

Zoe (23:28):
Yeah, it does.
It takes a few steps Yes.
To get naked on the street years probably.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And,

Heather (23:33):
and, and depression and anxiety and all these things.
Something where you are takingdrugs to get yourself out
of your own body and head.
Yeah.
The, the drug trip isn't the problem.
Yeah.
It's all the stuff leading up to it.
And I just am like, where is your mom?
But okay, um, pd. Let's go topd. Let's go to pd. Because we

Zoe (23:51):
have

Heather (23:52):
talked about him

Zoe (23:52):
before.

Heather (23:53):
Yes.
We brought up Pete, David, then.
Yeah.
And I think kind of in a way that'slike, what's going on with Pete?
Yeah.

Zoe (23:58):
Well, we were like, okay, this is another time you He went to rehab.
Yeah.
Like, how many times is he gonna go?

Heather (24:04):
Yeah.

Zoe (24:04):
Um, is he doing it for the right reasons?
Like, is he just getting, goingto rehab, getting sober to like
be o be forgiven by his community?
Yeah.
And be let back into jobs.
SNL get jobs.
Yeah.
That's exactly right.
I I, I think a lot of them,that was our standpoint.
Like what, two, three months ago?

Heather (24:22):
Yeah.
And I think that that has been true.
Yeah.
I think for a lot of them it is true.
Like, yeah.
As well.
We know that like you goto rehab when you're ready.
Yeah.
But if you're in the public eyeand other people are pushing
you to go, you have to go.
Yeah.
You're not gonna care.
Well, a lot of people

Zoe (24:36):
too, who get caught like on drugs at work, like they're regulated to go
to rehab if they wanna keep the job.
So like they go Yeah, but theydon't actually want to get sober.
Yeah.
And then they have to go againbecause they're actually ready.
Like I know a lot of guys thatwork in like unions, uhhuh, like
construction sites, um, if they'recaught with anything, they have the
option to go to like a regulated rehab.

Heather (24:59):
Oh.
If they're caught with anything.
Yeah.
That's kind of nice.
You don't get in trouble.
You just get Or rehab paid.

Zoe (25:04):
Yeah.
But

Heather (25:04):
probably not like the best one.

Zoe (25:06):
I'd be like, can I go to Hawaii?
No, I don't think it's the best.
No, it's not like a, the best one,but like it's a, at least a place
to go to like detox and like have afew, a couple weeks to like chill.

Heather (25:17):
Well, my mom had, because my

Zoe (25:17):
ex-boyfriend and Sarnia always talked about doing that, but he never did.

Heather (25:21):
Really?
Yeah.
My mom had some friendsthat worked for Coors.
Is that Canadian course?
Yeah.
Is it?
Yeah.
And um, they would, theywould pay for your rehab.
Yeah.
Like, but they would give you asix pack every Friday and then
also and like whatever else.
And then they're like, okay, well if youever need to go to rehab, we pay for it.
Yeah.
Which I'm like, you know what?

(25:42):
That I kinda like That is good.
Occupational hazard.

Zoe (25:46):
I

Heather (25:46):
think that every like

Zoe (25:47):
job should be able to pay for you to go to rehab.
Definitely.
You know, it should be likein the insurance package.

Heather (25:54):
It really should be.
I think it makes more sense for alcoholcompanies 'cause they have to be
responsible in that way, but, and they'rethe only ones that really understand
that like the thing that we're offering.
Yeah.
Or the thing that we provide is somethingpeople get severely addicted to.
Yeah.
So other companies are like, well whatchagonna do, get addicted to smart suites?
I don't know.

Zoe (26:15):
Um, pd but Pete did kind of admit that too, that he was like going.
To like, make everybodyhappy before, yeah.

Heather (26:23):
So Pete Davidson just went on the Breakfast Club podcast.
Um, he's so cute.
Immediately I was like, he looks so good.
Yeah.
I'm like, there's like life in his face.
Like he's the, he's a big reason whywe like boys who look like they eat
cigarettes for breakfast and do drugs.
Yeah.
But now he's got some life backand I'm like, and now you're
like, is my type changing?

(26:43):
Yeah.
Um, he, yeah.
He goes on and he kind oflike, immediately starts off,
they're like, how are you?
And he's like, I'm good.
I'm actually really happy.
Finally.
Yeah.
And I'm sober.
And I was like, Petey.
Yeah.
Like no one even asked you first of all.
Yeah.
'cause that's so sweet.
I'm like, I like when peopleare just like, I'm so open
and honest and like Yeah.
Yeah.
Which he knows.
He knows they're gonnatalk to him about that.

(27:04):
Yeah.
Because it's like been a whole thing.
But like Pete now has likea girlfriend who's pregnant.
Yeah.
Very exciting.
It feels like he's kind of Elsie Hewitt.
She's beautiful.
What,

Zoe (27:13):
what is she, she is ki like an actress model.
She was in a couple, shewas in that show, Dave.
So she's friends with like Dave andlike all those other guys I think.
Um, who's Selena?
Gomez's husband.
Benny Blanco.
Benny Blanco.
Like she's in that likegroup scene of friends.

Heather (27:34):
That's cool.
That's a cool scene.

Zoe (27:36):
Cool scene.

Heather (27:36):
I wonder if Selena and Pete Davidson will become friends.
That could be a friendshipI could get into.
I think they would be friends,but then maybe they're, they'll
decide, well, we missed the boat.
The boat.
And we should have had a fling.
Mm. But pd, he got allhis tattoos removed.
He was like, you know, I just, he'slike, he got into SNL so young.
Yeah, he was like 20.

(27:57):
Yeah.
He's a kid that's likethe youngest to do it.
Mm-hmm.
And he got all theseaccolades immediately.
He's like dating CassieDavidson, David, Davids, Cassie.

Zoe (28:07):
Yeah.
But Cassie Davis waslike a couple years ago.
Sure.

Heather (28:11):
But it still started.
Yeah.
Like that's when he first starts talkingabout how he was being like sexualized in
the news of like, oh, like Ariana Grande.
Well, yeah, but first it was Cassie.
Was it?
Okay.
Yeah.
And then it's Ariana, and thenit's like all these other people.
Mm. I can't even think of whoelse, but there's been so many.

Zoe (28:24):
Okay.
But yeah, but when he's talking aboutbeing sexualized, I'm like, okay, well
that's literally every girl's life.
Yeah.
Every girl's day to dayis being sexualized.
He sorry that he got a little bit of it.
Yeah.
Like I know that's living withtits in an ass every single day.
It is.
It's your penis isn't on display.
Our tits and ass

Heather (28:43):
is are on display.
The thing is, it's an interestingdichotomy because I also wanna
give empathy to him because ifwe're, if we look at like the grand
scheme of things, if a man is like,oh, like I've been sexualized in
the media for whatever, whatever.
And having a big dick.
Yeah.
My immediate thought is, shut the fuck up.
Welcome to the world.
Yeah.
This is what we've been dealing with.

(29:04):
However.
That doesn't really get anywhere.
Just being like, oh, we don't care aboutwhat you've been through because we've
all been going through it for years.
And by the way, we've beentelling you about it for years.
Yeah.
And none of you fucking people care.

Zoe (29:17):
But also he could have said it in a way of like, I understand that this is
what women go through every single day.
Like he could have likeat least acknowledge that.
Like maybe he doesn't his, hedoesn't acknowledge it or see.
And he doesn't know.
He doesn't know.
Well Pete, this is welcome to a womanhood.
A womanhood.
Yeah.

Heather (29:35):
And I did, I did feel if we just take Pete's
situation, his specific situation.
Yeah.
No history, no women,no feminism, nothing.
Yeah.
Pete came onto the scene inSNL, the youngest to do it.
That is so intense to get onto SNL andthen just like be thrown into that.
And now you're famous.
You're getting all of these tattoosbecause you're like trying to

(29:56):
find a vibe and then people aretalking about your giant dick.
And then Ariana went and confirmed it.
And I think that like she was tryingto do a kindness to him by saying like,
yeah, he's got like a huge fucking dick.
But he was like, well, what that does tome now is like, make everyone disappointed
when they see my dick or even thinkabout my dick before they even see me.

(30:17):
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, yeah, that's a problem.

Zoe (30:20):
But that's also like, like imagine a porn star, like Oh yeah.
Trying to have sex with regular people,like a porn star, any of us girls.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
It's, yeah, but that's liketo the extreme, you know?
Yeah.
Like and that's what Pete was.
Same thing, I guess.
Yeah.
And also like I'm sure he has a big dick.

(30:41):
Yeah.
He's so tall and thin.
I'm sure he has a big dick.
And even don't men like having a big dick.
I don't get it.
Like that's the thing.
So if you were say, if someonewas saying like, yeah, he has
a small penis, I get that.
Yeah.
That would make him feel so bad.

Heather (30:55):
Yeah.
Then you'd be like, no, I don't.
Yeah.
He is nuts.
So like, I don't know, it's, something'snot clicking for me that I get it.
Again, I don't really want peopletalking about how tight my pussy is.
Like I don't, yeah.
And I know it's different for menand women, of course I get that.
But for some, like some peopleare sensitive to things like that.
Some people aren't.
Like I, I don't.

(31:16):
Yeah.
I wouldn't want someone I fuckto be like, oh yeah, tight pussy.
I'd be like, that'swhat you got outta this.
You're right.
I get that.
I think, and then the world knows aboutit and I'm just like, now the world knows
I'm fucking, and they're thinking about itand I just, I think for a lot of it, yes,
of course when we line it up, like PeteDavidson versus Ariana Grande, he's gotten
way more like she's a whore and he Yeah.

(31:36):
Can do whatever the fuck he wants.
Yeah.
He's a whore too.
But he fucks really beautiful women.
Mm-hmm.
And he's really fucking successful.
So it, it's a weird dichotomy where I'mlike, I wanna have empathy for you because
you're an addict and you're in thissituation and you're telling your truth.
Yeah.
At the same time, it fallsa little short for me.
Mm-hmm.
Because not only have you never fuckingmentioned the harassment that we go

(31:58):
through, I also haven't heard anyother guy be like, Hey, this happened
to me, so don't do it to women.

Zoe (32:05):
Yeah, right.
I get that.
I think I just want him totake a little bit of like.
Not accountability, butjust like perspective.
Perspective of like, hey, like Iget that I went through this Yeah.
And it was awful.
And I can see Yeah.
How other women have to dealwith this on a day-to-day basis.

(32:25):
Yeah.
And I have a lot of empathy foryou guys and I respect you guys.
Yeah.
And like, I'm sorry,

Heather (32:30):
I would love for that on the

Zoe (32:31):
behalf of all men.

Heather (32:32):
Yeah.
And I would love forthat to come out soon.
Like I, I get it.
If you're in an interview and you'retalking about your own personal thing,
he has every right to talk about that.
Yeah.
Because it has been hisidentity the past decade.
He was saying, he's like, people havebeen talking about my dick for a decade.

Zoe (32:45):
I also think that, um, he was one of the first people that
kind of like had that druggy look.
Mm-hmm.
And I think he was one of the first guyswho were, was hot because of that look.
Mm-hmm.
Like he was, he got that look tobe popular and mainstream and sexy.

Heather (33:02):
Well, Annie had like an autoimmune thing and he's like
not really taking care of that.
'cause he's smoking weed all the time.
Yeah.
And he's drinking and he is doing drugs.

Zoe (33:10):
He started that look.
And I think that was like a probablya lot of pressure on him to like
be the one that everyone wants.
Like that is, that is stressful.
He

Heather (33:19):
also said in the interview that like the SN L cast
was like very gracious with him.
Like they were really nice to him,but it was this thing of like, he's
this kid who just comes in reallyyoung and is just, his sketch was like
weekend updates or like, it was likenot, he wasn't in sketches right away.
Got it.
And so it was like this kid justlike talking, trying to be funny.

(33:40):
Mm-hmm.
And he's fucking all these girls and he'slike out in the media and it's like, wait,
are we serious about comedy or are we not?
And like what are we doing?
And so I think for him thatfelt very much like I'm being
pulled in so many directions SNLhappened and then no autonomy

Zoe (33:52):
over what's he's doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Heather (33:54):
And I like Pete Davidson was like little kid, he was like
20 years old when he got on there.
Yeah.
So I'm like, you're in New York.
Yeah.
I bet you were sexualized a fuck ton.
Probably had sex with older women thatyou really didn't wanna have sex with.
Like a hundred percent.
So I think that.
Acknowledging hisautonomy is good and Yeah.

(34:15):
You know, I think so too.
And um, it's shocking tomen when things happen.

Zoe (34:20):
It's shocking.
I shocking.
I really like, wish the best for him.
It seems like he's in a good place.
It seems like him, like admittinglike, Hey, before I went to,
to all these rehabs, like Ididn't actually wanna do it.
I thought that I could still getaway with drinking and doing drugs.
Um, yeah.
But I know that I can't now.
Yeah.
I think he does go to meetings.
Some of the things he was saying in thatclip I saw you could kind of like, it

(34:41):
sounded tell that he is in the program.
Okay.
Was he using that language or helike, knows about the program?

Heather (34:47):
Yeah,

Zoe (34:47):
so I'm happy for him.

Heather (34:49):
Yeah.
Could be.
Maybe he's one of yours.
I think he might be one of mine.
He said something interesting.
Well, he said two thingsthat I really liked.
Mm-hmm.
The first one you'll like this.
'cause he was like, um, youknow, I did all the things.
I was in therapy.
Yeah.
I was doing all that.
And then he goes, but.
When you're a drug addict,that doesn't fucking work.
I know.

(35:09):
He's like, I was showingup to therapy on drugs.
Yeah,

Zoe (35:12):
same.
Same.
It doesn't work.
Yeah.
And I remember therapists telling me thattoo, that like, this won't work unless
like, we get your drinking under control.
So that's why we kept trying to like,make rules about my drinking every week.
But that does work.
Doesn't work.
Love

Heather (35:27):
rules.
Yeah.
I

Zoe (35:29):
know.

Heather (35:29):
It's really, it it, I like that he said it though, because
same, I think when we say itsometimes it's like, oh, fuck you.
Yeah.
Then it is, it is true.
It's true.
It, and also I think making a general,making a general statement about
addicts and the recovery is kind of okaywhen it's like therapy doesn't work.
Totally.
You have to go to rehab, you have to gosomewhere where you can abstain or aa,

(35:52):
you have to admit that you're powerless.
Yeah.
Which is what you always say.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think that that was justa very true statement and it
hit me hard that it was like,

Zoe (36:01):
yeah.
Yeah, because that's what, likewe say, that's what everyone says.
It's.
It's nice to know, but heis just one of us, you know?

Heather (36:09):
Must be really fucking frustrating 'cause
you did this more than I did.
Mm-hmm.
'cause I was going to therapywith a coffee cup full of wine.
Yeah.
But I wasn't working on my drinking.
Yeah.
I wasn't talking about drinking.
I was talking about relationships or true.
Or jobs.
Like I You were, you weren'tadmitting that you drank too much.
No.
No.
Fuck no.
Mind you, I'm drinkingin therapy at 10:00 AM

Zoe (36:30):
Yeah.
I probably had like at least fivedifferent therapists that I was
like trying to like get betterand like control my drinking with.
But

Heather (36:39):
see that's what's frustrating and it must be frustrating to go to therapy
and be like, okay, I have good intentions.
No one's going to therapyinitially being like, I'm gonna
manipulate the system for $160.
Mm-hmm.
A week.
Yeah.
No one's doing that.
So I think you do go in with goodintentions and you're like, I want the
best for me and my body and my life.
And you can kind of see, but see it.
But then when you're there

Zoe (36:58):
and like when you go home, it's like you can't.
It's not gonna work.
No, it doesn't.
And then you try.
So if you are, like, ifyou are an alcoholic, like

Heather (37:06):
just, you gotta, you gotta stop it.
Well, yeah.
And if you're in therapy and it's just notfucking working, that's get sober first.
Yeah.
And then go back to therapy.
There's a reason it's not working.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
It's okay to exhaust your options.
We're just here to tell youthat at the end of the rope
you'll be with us in rehab.

Zoe (37:23):
Like it, you're not doing a bad job at therapy, like you're not getting it.
Mm-hmm.
Because you're still drinking.
Yeah.
Like you can't get it if you'restill drinking and going to therapy.
You have to stop drinking and then go totherapy and then it will click for you.

Heather (37:36):
Yep.
It's so fucking hard to do.
But that, that is the scary fact.
Yeah.
But that is true.
Yeah.
You, you have to,therapy isn't gonna work.
And I really just like that hesaid that and he was trying.
Yeah.

Zoe (37:47):
We were all trying.
You said there was somethingelse that you liked.

Heather (37:50):
Yeah.
So he, oh yeah.
He said he'd, he'd.
He would do drugs.
He'd go to therapy on drugs and leavetherapy and be like, I'm doing better.
I'm getting better.
Yeah.
And you're like, yeah, the delusionon the way home from therapy.
I was like, well, I'm drinking now,but like this is a celebration.
'cause I just like talkedit all my feelings.
Exactly.
I'm gonna go home and getanother bottle of wine.
Exactly.
And then sit on the couch allday and until next Monday at
10:00 AM when I Dangerous cycle.

(38:11):
Dangerous.
Yeah.
He said this thing that resonatedwith, there's been two things in life
that Pete Davidson has made me cry.
Okay.
This is so weird.
This one, he was like talking abouthow before he got sober, he would
just tell people that he was likekind of a weird guy or mm-hmm.
People would know he was doing drugsor people would know little snippets

(38:32):
so that no one would ask why he's beinglike that or why he's acting weird.
Right.
And you resonate with that.
I'm like that.
Yeah.
I'm like, I.

Zoe (38:43):
You don't want anyone to judge you.
No.
You wanna just like get it outthere and be like, I know I'm weird

Heather (38:48):
and I'm like that in sobriety, but I was also like that in addiction too.
Okay.
Like where I would just be like,I'm drinking or like da da da.
I like took this, but I justlike, I never wanted anyone
to question what I was doing.
Yeah.
Because I wasn't gonna stop doing it.
Got it.
I just, I liked that he was like,the transparency is keeping me safe.
Yeah.
Because everyone knowsso it's not a problem.

Zoe (39:07):
I am, I'm really excited that he's like talking about
it too, in an honest way.
Yeah,

Heather (39:12):
I know.
It's good.
And he, he looks so good and Ireally hope that like it sticks.
'cause he does seem good.
When he was like, I'm good.
I'm sober.
I'm like, yeah, we know.
Yeah.
I like it.
Well they're having

Zoe (39:23):
a kid soon.
Crazy.
Yeah.
Crazy.
I think he'll be a good dad.
So I think it's time.
So yeah.
I think it's really time.
Settle it down.
Yeah.
Maybe he'll go on another, I thinkhe is going on another comedy tour.
I think he was saying.
Let see, maybe we'll come

Heather (39:35):
here and we should go.

Zoe (39:36):
We should go.
Um,

Heather (39:38):
pd speaking of rehab.
Last week I was like, do youwanna see our rehab binders?
And then And you never showed them.
Just never showed.
Yeah.
Alright.
You were holding out on them, weren't you?
I really was.
Zoe and I brought ourbinders today to show you.
You wanna see our binders?
You see our bind?
Me?
Yeah.
'cause when we go to rehab, wedon't just do arts and crafts.
We go to class, we go to class.

(40:00):
You sit in class for, what?
Six hours a day, eight hours a day.
And then a, a CA. Music, therapy.
Music, art.
Our music gym.
Our music therapy was so stupid.
Me, I don't think I did music.
I, the whole time I was inrehab every single day I was
like, I could do this better.
I could set this up better.

(40:21):
Yeah.
This is not

Zoe (40:21):
cool.
Yeah.

Heather (40:22):
You know.

Zoe (40:23):
Well they tried to, we did a karaoke every Friday night and they like,
wanted everyone to like sing a song.
I refuse to sing.
I never sang a song.
I'm like, I will leave

Heather (40:32):
here and do heroin right now if you make me fucking sing.
This isn't outta my, don't wanna do a

Zoe (40:36):
karaoke song.
No.

Heather (40:38):
I, please don't push me out of my fucking comfort zone.
I'm already sober.
Seriously.
Sitting with all of you.
Don't let

Zoe (40:44):
me rat shit.
Don't make me, um, show them your binder.
Okay.
So yours is way thicker than mine.

Heather (40:51):
You were in rehab for 30 days.
Yeah, I was there for 50 days.

Zoe (40:55):
50 or 45.
It was supposed to be 45, but I was Oh, 50

Heather (40:59):
50.

Zoe (40:59):
You, uh, even have a little organizers.
Oh yeah,

Heather (41:04):
I did.
I think I just like, likedthe idea of being organized.
Yeah.
But like, was that your schedule there?
This is my schedule.
Nice.
Okay.
This says Monday, April 3rd.
Oh my God, that's so funny.
Nine 30 Unity check, which I actuallydon't know what the fuck that means.
What time did you have to wake

Zoe (41:21):
up

Heather (41:21):
at?
We woke up, we had breakfast at eight.
Okay.
30 I think.
So I was up at like six and just chilling.
Yeah.
And then, and then like afternoongroup, aa, we had anger management.
Distress tolerance, part one.
Music, therapy, sex and intimacy.
Grief and loss.
Na.
Communication.

(41:41):
Distress.
Intolerance.
Part two.
Recovery.
Oh, recovery movie night.
Yeah.
We have so much stages of change.
Self care module.
We had so much, but thiswould change every week.

Zoe (41:53):
Yeah.
Same with ours.
For every,

Heather (41:55):
yeah.

Zoe (41:55):
I think we got a new, um, new, new schedule every week.

Heather (41:58):
What did your day look like?

Zoe (41:59):
Basically the same.
I woke up at eight every morning.
Mm-hmm.
We did intentions to start off.

Heather (42:06):
What are intentions?
That's where,

Zoe (42:08):
um, we did meps.
Mm-hmm.
Which, oh, she's got her die.
She's got her little journey.
That's the dinosaur journal.
Dinosaur was for meps andthen we had to, I know meps.
So M is for mental.
E is for emotional, P is forphysical, and S is for spiritual.

(42:30):
So you have to say howeach of those is doing.
Okay.
Do a word.
So November 2nd, 2022.
Which must have been likemy fourth day at rehab.
Aw, no, because I got there October 23rd.
So maybe that's like a weekend.
You were there during Halloween?
Yeah.
Oh, that's fucking weird.
Did you guys do stuff?
I was sick.

Heather (42:51):
Oh,

Zoe (42:51):
on Halloween.
Why?

Heather (42:52):
What were you sick with?

Zoe (42:53):
I don't know, but people like brought germs, um, candy to my door
'cause I was so popular in rehab.
Obviously, obviously.
So November 2nd.
Mentally I was aware.
Emotionally I was anxious.
Physically, I was well restedand spiritually I was grateful.
My intention was to be vulnerablethroughout my one-on-one today.

(43:15):
Hmm.
I want people to remember me for mykind, playful energy and for being
strong enough to maintain sobriety.

Heather (43:22):
That's nice.
Which is so cute.
Do you feel like it was hard for youto be vulnerable in your one-on-ones?

Zoe (43:26):
I think so.
Okay.
It must have been if I waslike, I want to be vulnerable.

Heather (43:31):
Yeah.
But genu, generally speaking, do you feellike it would be hard for you to do that?

Zoe (43:35):
Well, I think I was just so scared to do anything like early sobriety, so, yeah.

Heather (43:40):
Yeah.
It doesn't make me nervoustalking like one-on-one.
Like I, I'm a fucking therapy girl, so.
Well, I think

Zoe (43:45):
I was nervous 'cause I remember the first time I did my one-on-one
with my counselor Mia, I justlike cried for like 15 minutes.
Yeah.
So I wanted to like actuallysay something instead of just
bawling my eyes out probably.
Yeah.
You know?
But sometimes you have to do the big cry.
Yeah.
So what?
But I think this MEPS thing isnice because like sometimes I feel

(44:06):
bad and then I have to be like,okay, well why am I feeling bad?
Like, yeah.
Am I, is my body just sore?
Like, am I just pissed off 'cause I'msore and I'm not feeling well in my body?
Yeah.
Or am I actually mentallylike, fucked up right now?
Like, what is it that's going on?
Because then you can solve it.
If you're sore, you can just likelay down or um, have a cold shower.

(44:29):
Like, I don't know, getoutside of yourself.

Heather (44:32):
It's very important to know exactly how you're feeling.
Yeah, it is.
It really is.
Because then you're just gonna startreacting in the way you think you feel.
Yeah.
And then get all confused and fucked up.
And then that's when you're like,why did I, why did I do that?
And now I have to drink about it.
Exactly.
It's, and

Zoe (44:47):
I think like it's easy to just be like, oh, I feel bad, but it's.
Hard to be like, oh, I feel badbecause this, and now I'm gonna
work on this part of myself.
Yeah.
To make me actually feel better.

Heather (44:58):
Well it's giving yourself empathy too.
Yeah.
It's like, I'm feeling anxious today,so I'm like, I'm, I'm quick to trigger.
It's like I'm not a bad person'cause I'm trick quick to trigger.
I'm anxious and when Iget anxious, this happens.

Zoe (45:07):
Yeah.
It's like

Heather (45:08):
always.
And to calm my

Zoe (45:09):
anxiety, I can do this to calm down.

Heather (45:12):
I know.
And then it just gets hard whenyou're like, I'm angry and you're
like, I could do this to stopbeing angry, but I don't want to.

Zoe (45:18):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (45:18):
So I'm angry.
I think like, going through thesebinders, my biggest thing was like,
fuck, like, just like everything elsein my life, I don't do fucking homework.
I don't, and so I have thismassive 80 pound binder

Zoe (45:31):
and there's just full of like, um, full of just

Heather (45:33):
like loose pages.
Yeah.
And just like all of this shit,first of all, such a waste.
But also, well, I guess it's,

Zoe (45:39):
um, it's nice to read because obviously that, um.
That's a lot of education that's in there.
You just didn't do a lotof Well, you did that.

Heather (45:48):
What's that?
I mean this is, this is what I'm saying.
This is why we can't go through my binder.
'cause there's like nothing.
Yeah.
But I, this is just likean anger styles quiz.
I try to never get angry.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I get really nervouswhen others are angry.
No, I feel I'm doing somethingbad when I get angry.
No, this was before.
And then I just wrote something, I wrotesomething on a sticky note somewhere that

(46:08):
said like, I've been justifying my moralanger by, because I'm fucking right.
Mm. True.
You know, because a big thing in rehabwas like, I just hate men so much.
And I'm like, well, I am.
Right.
And often I am fucking right.
Like with the NHL thing, I'mlike, yeah, but I hate them.
So I am right.
My moral anger.
My moral anger was right.

(46:30):
But it's like, yeah, you can'tjust like pick something.
You can't just be

Zoe (46:32):
angry.
Have to like be able to let things go too.
And I think you'rereally not good at that.

Heather (46:38):
Uh, let things go isn't necessarily like what I would.
Make my goal.

Zoe (46:45):
Yeah.
But like if you hold on to shit, you'regonna be angry for the rest of your life.

Heather (46:49):
Yeah.
But you also have to work through thethings you're angry about sometimes.
'cause sometimes you can, sometimesyou get older but isn't working
through it, kind of letting it go.
Well if you're just like, thisthing happened to me, I'm good.
I'm just not gonna think about it.
No, because there's stufftrapped in your body.
Not for everybody, but ifsomething happens to you and
that stores trauma mm-hmm.

(47:11):
You can't really just let it go.
You have to like work on the things.
Or it's gonna show up in otherplaces like anger and not know why.
Like, I found out I was fuckingmad at my, my grade seven
teacher, Mr. Teeny in rehab.
Yeah.
Like I didn't even know that I was mad.
'cause you didn't wanna

Zoe (47:27):
remember it or?

Heather (47:28):
Um, no.
'cause I thought, I thought about itevery single day, my whole entire life.
Yeah.
I just didn't know that I was so.
Angry at him.
Right.
Like I knew I was like hurt and Iknew that a lot of things were unfair.
Yeah.
But I didn't know how much of my lifewas so fucking angry because of him.

(47:49):
Got it.
And like the way people speak to mesometimes I'm like, I had to work
through all of that to be like, oh, okay.
I'm triggered by him in this way.
Mm-hmm.
I can't just let that go.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because he fucking hurt me.
Yeah.
So I can't, I've been carryingit around for way too long.
Yeah.
So I think, I think just sometimes,yeah, some things would be great to
just let go and other things, it's like.

(48:11):
In order to do that, you have tofeel at peace with letting it go.

Zoe (48:14):
Yeah.
And that's what I'm saying.
It's doing the work to be like, okay.
Yeah.
Immensely to be like, okay.
And that is now through my body.
Yeah.
And I let go.
That's the last

Heather (48:23):
step.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, my last step might be likepunching him right in the head,
but we haven't decided that yet.

Zoe (48:30):
I honestly, there's not much in the binder because again,
it's just mostly worksheets thatI didn't do a lot of either.

Heather (48:36):
Yeah.
I was like kind of abrat in rehab sometimes.
Yeah.

Zoe (48:40):
Like got a little bit, sometimes I was just like, I mean, there's lots of
emotions in rehab, so like, I get it.
A lot of people were brats.
I was, I guess I was kind of bratty,but I also was just like really quiet
and just like kind of stuck to myself.

Heather (48:53):
In the beginning.
I was an angel.
Mm-hmm.
I was terrified to be there.
I was like terrified I wouldn't get sober.
I was like indebted to everybody.
And then by the end, like Ihad just, I knew too much.
Yeah.
I'd been there too long.
Yeah.
And now I'm like.
Yeah, it was just a lot.
And I just, I, I just like, I didhave to get outta there at some point.
You know?
Too much.
You learn too much.

(49:14):
Okay.
Let's see what I said.
For professional.
Okay.
My best professional self is a boss.
Ooh.
I have found what I, that's kind of true.
I know.
I have found what I love to do.
It's hard work.
It is my passion.
I have let go of my past career andfound a path that lets me flourish.
Finances are stable and Ifeel proud making good income.
I have people who look up to mein my career and I can help them.

(49:36):
Aw.
That is kind of still how I feel.
That is, that is how youfeel, and that is kind of

Zoe (49:39):
what we're

Heather (49:40):
doing.
That is what we're doing.
I love that.
Do this at home.
When feeling bored and anxious,ask for a ginger ale instead.
Oh, this is on the plane.
Mm. At least I'm drinking something.
Yep.
It's always just good tohave something in your hands.
Totally.
That first plane is so crazy.
Yeah.
Oh, this is kind of interesting.

(50:00):
What does this say?
My moral beliefs,honesty in relationships.
Always be around for my sister.
Keep educating myself.
Stand up for people.
Mm-hmm.
Accept people's differencesand their choice in love.
That's hard for me.

Zoe (50:14):
Yeah.

Heather (50:15):
Believe people and who they say they are and their experiences.
I think I do that.
Understand others'feelings are true to them.

Zoe (50:22):
You are very like compassionate and I think I trust, I think you trust people.

Heather (50:30):
I, I trust that what people are saying to me is true to them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do.
Yeah.
I trust people's like hearts and emotions.
Yeah.
I always also know a dirty

Zoe (50:39):
liar when I see one.
But you do, and I think like you'regood to get people to open up to
you so that they can trust you.
Yeah.

Heather (50:48):
I do like it.
Yeah.
I like it.
It's nice.
Yeah.
What do, tell me somethingfrom your little, your little.

Zoe (50:53):
My little thing.
Yeah.
So in here I have like beforesobriety, rehab, and after sobriety.
Crazy.
Read me like right before youwent to, so I noted this co. Okay.
So the, this day was January 12th, 2022.
I went to rehab October, 2022.
Okay.

(51:13):
So reasons why I am not going to the LCBO.
Aw.
Every time I get wasted, I've lost jobsand relationships, romantic and friends.
I end up falling and hurting my body.
True.

Heather (51:25):
Yeah.

Zoe (51:26):
The next day is a write off because I either keep drinking or feel
like crap physically and mentally.
I text people.
I regret say things I don't mean Ihave sex with people I don't want to.
Um.
Makes my body feel like shit.
I gain weight.

Heather (51:42):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (51:43):
Classic.
Everything in my life stemsfrom drinking too much.

Heather (51:46):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (51:46):
That's like all in capitals.
Oh my

Heather (51:48):
God.
There's no lines on this paper.
No, this is freehanding,

Zoe (51:52):
freehanding, everything.
A

Heather (51:52):
wild girl.
But

Zoe (51:53):
then, okay, that was January 12th.

Heather (51:56):
Mm-hmm.

Zoe (51:58):
January 14th.
I drank for two weeks.
Perfect.
Times slash reasons whyI drank this two weeks.
Okay.
And then I just like unblocked me.
Zoom meeting didn't work.
Those are just the tworeasons I put there.
Oh.
So like, yeah.
Very chaotic.
Also valid.

Heather (52:14):
Very

Zoe (52:14):
valid.
Like super fucking

Heather (52:15):
valid.
If like the um, theZoom link doesn't work.

Zoe (52:19):
Yeah.

Heather (52:20):
Oh fuck you.
Fuck you.
Then I'm drinking.
Yeah.
Like, it really, really, it's that thankGod, like, thank God I don't drink now
because trying to set up this podcastwith all the things that have gone wrong.
Seriously.
There's no way.
There's no way.

Zoe (52:32):
Hospital at 1:00 PM October 7th.
So this is like midday hospital trips.
Are we?
I know.
Weird.
This is like three weeksbefore I went to rehab.
I woke up feeling so alone.
I know the answer is to reachout to my friends, but I feel
like I'll be annoying them.
But prove to yourself in familyyou can be sober for the weekend.
Mm. Even though it'sgoing to be really hard.

(52:54):
If anything, allow yourself a six pack.

Heather (53:00):
The insanity.
No, it's delusional.
I know.
If anything, be sober so you canprove to your friends and family
that you're sober for the weekend.
If anything.
If anything you can have a six pack.
It's a little treat.
That's amazing.
I like know that brain though,so well, because beer at that
point is basically apple juice.
Like you are not gonna get fucked up.

(53:21):
Yeah.
Damn Zoe.
Let's see, like the last thing.
I really like that it'slike, reasons drinking.
This person blocked me andmy computer wasn't working.
Know, I know.
Yeah.
I mean, those are the two worstthings that could happen to a person.
And so I don't know how you survived.
Well, literally I couldn't do anything.
No.
You know, it's no.
And everything that happens,everything that goes wrong while

(53:42):
you're an addict, you're like a,the world is fucking against me or
I'm a piece of shit and I'm stupid.
So both of those reasons I'm gonnadrink, it's, it's, everything is chaos.
Crazy.
Everything is chaos.
Don't even set me up with a newTV in a remote if I'm drinking.
Can't handle it.

Zoe (53:58):
The last thing I wrote.
I don't know.
It just says drunk fromOctober 19th to the 22nd.
And then I go to rehab.
That's crazy.
Day one rehab.
Watched all season six ofworking Moms Great show.
Had a sweaty sleep.
That's all I wrote down for day one.

Heather (54:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's, you'relike, that's all I did.
That's all I did.
I sweat and I watched work in moms.
Oh, 'cause you had what, a fewdays isolated before you Yeah.
Joined the group.
Well, I

Zoe (54:29):
think, um, I was too scared to be day three.
Went off detox, still in the same room,went to breakfast and sat with people.
Smiley face.

Heather (54:38):
Aw.

Zoe (54:38):
So I think day three is when like I, I wrote down Dreams in rehab.

Heather (54:43):
Um, like dreams you were having in the night.

Zoe (54:44):
Yeah.
'cause I was having crazy ass dreams.
Drinking, drinking dreams.
Just like, Hey, a nurse.
Came into my room calling me Sarah.
Okay.
No, let's Don't love that.
I don't like that.

Heather (54:55):
I immediately hate it.

Zoe (54:56):
Felt like I was protecting a kid, so I went after the man
to punish him, but the womanwent after him and I stabbed her.
I remember not fully dying though.
What?
Okay.
I was actually killing alot of people in my dreams.
I was gonna

Heather (55:09):
say, violence is big for those early, yeah, it, it's weird.
I dunno if it's like a blame thingor like a withdrawal thing, but also
the drinking dreams are so insane.
So insane.
They don't talk.
I actually had a drinkingdream last night.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
What were you doing?
Was I there?
Who were you with?
No.
And why don't you choose me?

Zoe (55:27):
You weren't there.
I remember I woke up trying to, Iwas like, I should write it down,
but I didn't wanna write it down.
I don't remember what I wasdoing, but I definitely had
a drinking dream last night.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well, I, it's, I thinkmy drinking dreams just.
They end off being like, fuck.

(55:48):
Like I don't wanna say sorry to allthese people again, like the guilt and
shame of it is what sticks with me.

Heather (55:55):
When you were drinking, who were you apologizing to?
Your friends,

Zoe (55:58):
like my friends, my family, my ex-boyfriend, his family.

Heather (56:02):
Do you have friends now that you feel like have to apologize
a lot or do a lot of apology tours?

Zoe (56:09):
Not really.
No.
Yeah.
You felt like

Heather (56:10):
you're the Yeah.

Zoe (56:11):
I feel like I probably didn't even need to say so.
Well I did, but I'm just suchlike a empathetic person that I
feel like I've just felt bad for.

Heather (56:21):
Yeah.
Doing

Zoe (56:22):
anything or like making my friends like scared.
I don't know.

Heather (56:26):
Just existing, like your presence existing is like dangerous.

Zoe (56:30):
Yeah.
God,

Heather (56:31):
this is funny.
My best social self socialis so difficult for me.
My best social self involves love.
Okay.
I have found a partner whosupports me and who I support.
He is kind.
Oh, I was being so straight.
He's kind loving, agreesto spontaneous adventures.
Mm. I don't like, yeah.
You don't like that now?
I don't like it.

Zoe (56:50):
No.

Heather (56:50):
Someone who IC unless it was like a very expensive trip.
Yeah.
Then I could do that.
Um, someone who I continue to growwith, my friends that I have kept,
made are very important to me.
I care about them and cantell them most things.
I feel safe with these people.
My family continues tomake time for each other.

(57:10):
They are proud of me.
Sober vacations, our annual.
Aw, I like that.
I like that.
Okay.
Vacation.
I feel like I've done agood job with my friends.
Yeah.
I've made friends that are importantto me and I can tell the most things.
Yes, you can.
That's you, Zoe, Francis Zoe.
Aw, that's really sweet.
My personal best self is a sober womanliving in a new house, fully decorated,

(57:34):
designed to exactly what I want.
My morning routine involveswaking up early with Nike Rested
water, coffee, and breakfast.
I do coffee, going for a nicewalk, followed by a workout.
Oh, I journal.
She don't, I write downmy daily gratitude.
She don't.
I'm fully aware of who I am.
A funny, kind, compassionate person.
That is who you are.

(57:54):
Mind, body, soul, skin arethe best they've ever been.
Fuck yeah.
I like that.
That part.
That part.
Aw, that's nice.
That's nice.
Okay.
I'm still working on these things.
Yeah, I think that's good.
It's nice

Zoe (58:06):
to like remind you like.
Yeah.
Just like how far you've come.
Oh my God.
And like what you wantedand now you're doing it.
So what did you

Heather (58:14):
think you were gonna do when you got outta rehab?

Zoe (58:16):
Literally, I don't know.

Heather (58:18):
Did you have any plan, any kind of thought?
No.
Okay.

Zoe (58:23):
Well, I was just gonna go to meetings.
But job wise or like, well, I wasworking at a med spa before in
Sarnia, so I was just like, okay.
Did you

Heather (58:32):
hired from there?

Zoe (58:33):
Yep.
Okay.
But my back took me to the hospital.
Right.
Yeah.
Do you think she

Heather (58:37):
had let you back

Zoe (58:39):
in Sarnia?
Yeah.
I wasn't going back to Sarnia.
Okay.
My job, my goal was to go back to Toronto.

Heather (58:45):
Yeah.
So you were like, okay, I'mgonna find a job in the city.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
Did you know what?
Did you know you wanted to do?
Meds spa?

Zoe (58:50):
I was just like, I guess like I, this is what I have to do 'cause
this is what I've been doing.

Heather (58:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fuck.
That was the thing be, I'm like, amI gonna, am I gonna get a desk job?
Yeah.
Shit.
I'm like, I don't have any skills.
I'm gonna go work.
I'm, I can't even do bookkeeping.
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, I actually, I had asmall tutorial on bookkeeping.
Two days ago.
Ooh.
From a woman who, she was fine.
She was nice.
But you know,

Zoe (59:14):
um, also a lot of this, like the early stuff is like, yeah,
my ex-boyfriend blocked me again.
Or like, yeah, fuck my ex-boyfriend.
I slept with his best friend.
Or like, just like, me and my ex were sotoxic together and he was also an addict.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I just like, it wasa great relationship in the

(59:36):
beginning, but it got so fucked up.

Heather (59:38):
Yeah.

Zoe (59:39):
And I think, like I was so wrapped up in that, that even after
rehab, like I was still talking tohim Mm. Really after because I, yeah.
I was like, I thought that maybewe could like figure it out.
Yeah.
'cause I was so toxic andlike obsessed with that.
And I think I wanted to like proveto him that I could be a good

(01:00:01):
girlfriend and be sober for him.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, like even

Heather (01:00:06):
after rehab too, you've like learned all the lessons and you're
like, but maybe I can be better for him.
Exactly.
And you're like almost, yeah.
Almost got the point, babe.
But it does, I mean, rehabdoesn't fix everything.
You still have to goand take those lessons.

Zoe (01:00:18):
No, like I was talking like January 24th, 2023.
Like this is what, five months sober.
Now I keep talking about him.
I told my ex I was upset about not seeinghim and that he never called yesterday.
And it seems like he doesn't even care.
So like I was still obsessed with him.

Heather (01:00:35):
That's so interesting that you stayed sober.

Zoe (01:00:39):
Yeah.
Well I think a littlebit of it was maybe like.
To like get him to want me again.

Heather (01:00:45):
Yeah.
But then the like constantlike rejection of that.
Yeah.
Having sobriety, not sobriety,but, well, because I don't,

Zoe (01:00:50):
I don't know if I knew, I don't think I actually wanted him.
I think I wanted to prove to himthat I was better than him and like

Heather (01:00:58):
Yeah.
You

Zoe (01:00:59):
know, that is a helpful tool.
Yeah, that is a very helpful

Heather (01:01:02):
tool.
'Zoe: cause I was always so fucked up with him.
Yeah.

Zoe (01:01:05):
But at the end of this, oh my God, you wrote to the end.
At the end, the last thing Ikind of write is like, and I'm
not talking to my ex anymore.
And it's like, wow.
It took me, what day was that?
February 23rd?
Like it, I don't know.
I think he did comeover that spring though.

(01:01:25):
Okay.
In 2023.
So six plus months of being sober.
I invited that guy to my house in Toronto.
Yeah.

Heather (01:01:32):
Yeah.

Zoe (01:01:32):
He was drinking the whole time.
And I told him like the one rule that.
Uh, that we have is thatyou cannot do cocaine.

Heather (01:01:41):
Mm. Okay.
I went

Zoe (01:01:42):
to work and he did coke.

Heather (01:01:44):
Yeah.
Well, we can't do rules.
Yeah.
And you're like, okay.
Right, right, right.
You're not where I am.

Zoe (01:01:49):
And we did hook up like twice that weekend and I think after
that, that was like the closurethat I needed to never like, sure.
We like text like every six months or so.
Like he says, like, I'm so happyyou're doing so well, whatever.
But after that I was like, yeah, fuck.

(01:02:10):
I do not want this man.
Like this is, I wish him the best.
Truly, he is like a good guysomewhere deep down in his heart,
but like he does have to get soberand like do some work for himself.
Yeah.
But a lot of my.
Like s like drinking and then spreadwas like all wrapped up around

(01:02:30):
my ex-boyfriend because now I'mso like not male centered at all.
Well,

Heather (01:02:34):
that's right.
Yeah.
So that's what I find sointeresting about this whole thing.
We can't just make a decision aboutsomeone in our life and change it.
Yeah.
It's like you have to go, some of ushave to literally become alcoholics
and go to rehab to figure out what'sbest for us and what we actually
want and who's not serving us.
Yeah.
So like that book is justsuch a testament to that.

(01:02:54):
Yeah.
Years and years and years ofyou like, or whatever months.
Year years.
Yeah.
Like I of trying to figure it out andthen it's the, at the very end you're
like, finally I am done with this person.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like, it's almost like, okay,yeah, no, we're, we've given you all
the tools and you're doing all of it.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're sober andyou're going to meetings.
Yeah.
And you're working on yourself andyou have a routine and you have a job,

(01:03:15):
and all of those things are amazing.
Amazing.
And then you have this one thingthat you can't seem to kick.
Yeah.
But it's 'cause it's ingrained in you.
Yeah.
And it's like, well, I can't.
But I'm, I'm this person now.
Am I supposed to just, but I still lovethat person and I am still that person.
It's very hard.
Yeah.
So any relationships, like youtalking like, one of the things in
here that I said that was like, beaccepting of people in who they love.

(01:03:39):
Yeah.
That's very hard for me because Ithink I know, and a lot of us, we do
objectively know what's better for ourfriends because we can see it clearly.
But just like this book, it's likeI have to give people time mm-hmm.
To write through their chaptersand exhaust themselves.
Yeah.
It's just true.
Yeah.
I'm glad you wrote that down.
I'm glad you have that all 'cause.

Zoe (01:04:00):
It, it's like, like, it's just crazy to me.
Like, even like my second year ofsobriety, I've said to my sponsor,
I was like, remember I had myex-boyfriend come to my house last year?
Like, what the fuck was I thinking?
Oh, she knew you

Heather (01:04:12):
at

Zoe (01:04:12):
that time?
Yeah.
Okay.
She, she knew he was coming over too.
Okay.
'cause I was like, Ithink I'm gonna do this.
Like, what do you think?
And she was like, woulddo whatever you wanna do.
And I was like, whydid you let me do that?

Heather (01:04:22):
Yeah.
Like, don't you just wish asponsor and a therapist would just,
every now and then be like, Nope.
Hey, not a good idea.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, just one time,take the hat off and tell

Zoe (01:04:31):
me exactly how you feel.
Yeah.
So it's just like, if you're in earlysobriety, like it's a weird time.
It's a weird fucking time.
You're gonna do weird shit with weird men.
You're gonna do weird shit.
You're gonna figure it out.
Like the first year is very, you'restill like figuring everything out.
Yeah.

Heather (01:04:48):
All of this work that's in that book, all of it.
And.
He's done no work.
Yeah.
And you're doing all of this stuffand it's still, it's like what's the
most important thing in that book?
Obviously we know it's sobriety, but it'slike in those moments, what's the most
important thing you're writing about?
Is it sobriety or is it this guy?
Mm-hmm.
And it's not, it's like all wrappedinto who you are and how you're feeling,
but the two most important things, andone is life or death, and the other one

(01:05:13):
just feels like life or death, you know?
Yeah.
It's

Zoe (01:05:15):
just the perception.

Heather (01:05:17):
Yeah.
Of it.
Yeah.
And I think there is a thing too.
We get sober and we'relike, okay, I'm better now.
Yeah.
And now everything in mylife that was wrong should be
better because I'm the problem.
Yeah.
And then you bring in another individualinto that and you're like, oh, so
now I'm working extra hard and nowI've realized that you are also a
problem and you're not doing any work.

(01:05:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think rehab.

Zoe (01:05:41):
Yeah,

Heather (01:05:41):
it's, it's a lot.
We should do that everytime we date someone.
Just like start writing shit down.
Yeah.
I mean, you can journal from Journal I,it's, I have stuff about sex in here.
Okay.
Um, like identifying your problem areas.
Also, don't call them my problem areas.
That's crazy.
It's like I have an infection.
What boundary categorieshave the most violations?

(01:06:06):
Emotional, intellectual, and sexual.
That's what I said.
Mm. How have these boundaryissues impacted you?
Negatively.
Emotional sharing too muchwhen sober and drinking.
When was I sober?

Zoe (01:06:16):
Yeah.

Heather (01:06:17):
Don't, I don't always remember what I've shared.

Zoe (01:06:20):
Yeah.

Heather (01:06:22):
Um, the not knowing is scary.
The not knowing is so scary.
Scary.
And I remember my sister used to saythis to me, like, she's like, you don't
leave a lot to like the imagination.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you don't letpeople get to know you.
Right.
And then if you tell people toomany things upfront, but you don't
even know that person and you'retelling people that you don't trust.
Or, but you think you shouldtrust they can turn that around

(01:06:43):
and use it all against you.
Yeah.
Even being open about addiction andsobriety, it's like be careful who
you tell and how they wanna spin that.
Yeah.
Because sometimes it's just so fun totalk about everything and you're just
manic about things and then it's like,well, what do people deserve about your

Zoe (01:06:57):
life?
Exactly.
You know?
Do you know that this person,can you trust this person?
Do they have good intentions?

Heather (01:07:03):
Yeah.
Intellectual fighting with my dad,getting heated turns to attacking
his character if we like, wouldfight with politics and stuff.
Yeah.
I'd be like, well, youare the fucking worst.
Yeah.
Um, and then promiscuoussex with whoever, whenever.
Yeah.
First dates.
Use sexual humor as a defense.
Not sure if I make others uncomfortable.
I don't want to harass anyone.
Yeah.
That's nice.

Zoe (01:07:24):
Yeah.
I feel like I was just like pouncing onthe men thinking that they wanted it.

Heather (01:07:28):
Ooh.
Yeah.
I really was too.
Yeah.
I'm really glad that thatpart of my life is over.
Same like having sex.
Just to fulfill something.
And I think it was so that theywould feel satisfied so that I was
associated with like satisfaction.

Zoe (01:07:45):
Right.

Heather (01:07:45):
And then I'm like, well, maybe you'll need me and you'll call me again.
True.
That's like all it fucking was likethat's why even when I was in rehab and
I was like, what am I gonna do after?
It's like I don't evenknow who I am to anybody.
Yeah.
Like all I've been to anyone islike a fuck doll or like some drunk
person and I'm like, who am I?

Zoe (01:08:03):
And it takes a while to figure that out.
Like I think you're only now just likereally starting to figure out who you are.
Yeah.
Like the past, I don't know.
Whenever we started this podcastis I think when you really.
18 years ago.
Got familiar with yourself?
Yeah.
And started to trust yourself.

Heather (01:08:19):
Yeah.
A little bit more.
Yeah.
It's funny that I'm thinkingabout this back then, like
being fully present during sex.
Allowing myself, yeah.
To be an equal part.
Figuring out, expressing what I like andnot feeling bad or like an inconvenience.
Yeah.
I do feel like an inconvenience.
And just recently I'vebeen like a lot, man.
I was faking orgasmsforever my whole life.
Yeah.
Always people who thinkthat they've made me come.

(01:08:39):
No, no, no, no, sweetie.
I'm a great actress.
But also like, I don't

Zoe (01:08:42):
think I was coming at all when I was having drunk sex.
I mean, yeah.
Like I don't think it waspossible for me to feel anything.

Heather (01:08:48):
No.
But I just, I've realized recently,okay, so like I've been having
sex and I really do think like.
I've never wanted to like actuallylet myself feel pleasure because I
don't know what I look like or like,I dunno what my face looks like.
I dunno what my body's doing.
And sometimes to like reallyfeel the pleasure you have
to like, move in a certain

Zoe (01:09:06):
way.
Or like, I know like my face gets probablyfucked up and whenever I'm done having
sex, I look at my, my face in the mirror.
Oh my God.
And the line here is so bigand I'm like, my boyfriend.
What have, what have you done?
I have a wrinkle.
I know.
Or

Heather (01:09:20):
like, just like face smashed into the pillow.
Yeah.
And I'm like, excuse me, slaps.
Elevated slaps.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, uh, it's really nice that Ido feel like that, that fear of
like, even, it wasn't even a fear.
I didn't even think it was a fear.
Yeah.
It was just like, oh, I'm nevergonna let myself get to this point.
It's not gonna happen.
I'm not gonna try.
Did you think that you

Zoe (01:09:38):
didn't deserve it or it was just like the body stuff?
It was just the per um,perception of what you look like?
I think

Heather (01:09:44):
massive body stuff.
Yeah.
I think body stuff,like, it just felt like.
I have to hide my bodyeven though I'm naked.
So there's no way I can everexperience any kind of pleasure
because I hate this situation.
Yeah.
And then, and then, yeah.
I don't know if it's like a deservedthing, but I got to the point where I
was like, well, I've been faking it thiswhole time, so I don't even know Yeah.

(01:10:05):
How to come.
I mean, mind you, I've beenmasturbating since I was like
nine, but like then I also waslike, well, have I ruined my clit?
Mm-hmm.
Like have I just been doing a thingfor so long that that's the only
way my body knows how to come?
Yeah.
But now I feel like it's different.
Now I'm like comfortable andI'm like forcing myself to try.
Yeah.
And it's nice.

(01:10:25):
It's nice.
But I feel like I do, Ido look a little crazy.

Zoe (01:10:28):
We all do.
It's fine.
It's sex.
It's supposed to look crazy.
We're animal having sex.
Yeah.
At the end of the day.
Yeah.
It's fine.

Heather (01:10:34):
And mind you, I

Zoe (01:10:35):
never care what

Heather (01:10:35):
like he looks like when he is doing it.
Literally.
I usually like it when they have,I like it when they have the

Zoe (01:10:39):
word.
Yeah.
I fucking love it.

Heather (01:10:41):
I'm like, you're working.
You.
The married guy.

Zoe (01:10:43):
Yeah.

Heather (01:10:43):
Yeah.
He, he's putting in severeeffort and he's like, exhausted
after Exhausted, exhausted.
I know.
And then he'll be like,you did such a good job.
And I'm like, I did.
It's nothing.
Thank you so much.
We're all taking in informationdifferently if it's just like sitting
with it or if it's like having asmuch fun as you possibly can in rehab
and working on yourself in that way.

Zoe (01:11:03):
Yeah.
And like some people just don'thave the capacity to do like, no.
Write stuff down.
Take information in ifyou are doing hard drugs.

Heather (01:11:11):
Yeah.

Zoe (01:11:12):
For years and years and years.
I don't think you can doa worksheet, you know?

Heather (01:11:18):
No,

Zoe (01:11:18):
come on.
No,

Heather (01:11:19):
that was a

Zoe (01:11:20):
bit

Heather (01:11:20):
hard.
Yeah, that was like every single morning.
It's like, Heather, did you write this?
And I'm like.
No, but I'll do it right now.
Yeah.
It's like it was supposedto be reflective.

Zoe (01:11:27):
Yeah.
If you, uh, wanna know anythingelse about our binders, let us know.
Yeah, yeah.
And, um, we'll find it orwe'll tell you about it.
There's something in this

Heather (01:11:35):
binder that says amygdala hack.
I haven't even looked overthat, but I guess thinking
brain versus emotional brain.
Guys, there's so much in here.
There's so much.
So if you have any questions,

Zoe (01:11:45):
let us know.
Mm-hmm.

Heather (01:11:47):
And, uh, we'll keep talking about our binders.

Zoe (01:11:49):
Yeah.
I hope you, I hope youthought that was interesting.

Heather (01:11:52):
Yeah.
And I hope you now know that rehabis class and not arts and crafts.

Zoe (01:11:56):
Yeah.
We do a lot of work.

Heather (01:11:58):
We do a lot of

Zoe (01:11:58):
work.
We do a lot of work on ourselves.
And it

Heather (01:12:00):
worked.
Thank God.
Thank

Zoe (01:12:01):
God.
Okay.
Well.
Proud of you.
I'm proud of you.
I love you.
I love you.
Bye.

Heather (01:12:11):
Un drunk.
Thanks for listening to Girl Un Drunk.
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTokat Girl Un Drunk podcast and or send
me an email at [e-mail].
Walking around.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Sorry,

(01:12:32):
I had to finish it.
I'm done.
Go on.
You are very good atfinishing your drinks.
I need to, I'm so shit at all of it.
I, I have full cups of thingsjust lying around all the time.
Oh, no.