A Lot Of Tries (feat. Paige Wood)

Episode Transcript
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Heather (00:05):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
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Please take care while listening

(00:26):
drunk.
Hi everyone.
Hi Pee.
Hi.
Welcome back to Girl and Drunk.
This is a very weird, exciting, crazy,like, isn't it so weird to even just
be sitting here doing this right now?
It's really

Paige (00:42):
weird.
I feel like I'm having an body.
I know.
I, um,

Heather (00:45):
I, I dermaplaning my face this morning and I feel like I still have like
goosebumps, like on my face right now.
It's so.
Weird.
I'm, I'll be honest, before Iintroduce, we will, I feel like this
is what we've always wanted to do.
Yeah.
Like sit and have everyone haveto listen to us for an hour.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Feels good.
Time down.
So today, before we get into the introsof, actually no, let's do intros first.

(01:09):
Obviously.
I'm Heather.
Hi.
Welcome back.
Today, we're in Ottawa.
I drove to Ottawa last night.
I'm staying with my mom.
It's so nice.
And I have a very special guesttoday and I'm so excited about it.
But this is my friend Paige Wood.
Hi.
Best friends.
Best friend.
We've been best friends.

(01:29):
Well, we'll get into it.
Many moons.
Many moons have passed.
Many moons.
And then the moons got lostand then the moons came back.
Yes.
And it's gonna be totally fine.
It'll be totally fine.
This is P'S per, oh, I call herP. This is Paige's first podcast.
So we all remember how mine went.
It's gonna be great today.

(01:49):
I'm so fucking excited.
Look what we're drinking.
We just met this wonderful woman, Alana,at our live event a few weeks ago.
She makes non-alcoholic wineand it's exciting because a
lot of non-alcoholic stuff.
'cause you've had likenon-alcoholic Coronas.
Yeah.
A lot of stuff is like 0.05 mm. Andthat's just like the distillation process.
So it's fine.

(02:10):
But this is zero zero andthey get the alcohol out.
It's like a vacuum.
She wrote it down for me.
Hold on.
Obviously I have to refer to my notes.
It gets removed by vacuum distillation.
So it, the way she explained itwas like, like they suck it out.
Yeah.
Well the way she explained it waslike steaming something essentially.
Like you can, like when you're cookingwith alcohol uhhuh and then it steams

Paige (02:32):
out all the alcohol.
Alcohol.
Right.
It like evaporates.

Heather (02:33):
Yeah.

Paige (02:34):
And that's said why you'll get drunk from vodka sauce.

Heather (02:38):
Damn though.

Paige (02:40):
So can you have vodka sauce?
Yeah.
What can you not eat?
Um.
Well, she's one of those, by the way, Icould eat anything if I really wanted to.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I eat small amountsof lactose free dairy.
Okay.
That's changing my life, by the

Heather (02:57):
way.

Paige (02:58):
Yeah.
I've been putting it in my

Heather (02:59):
coffee and I feel less crazy.
Yeah.

Paige (03:00):
It's, it's good.
It's a good way to like, get aroundthings and fill some nutritional gaps.
What if they are there, like for me?
Like protein, like Oh, yeah.
You know, things like Greekyogurt, cottage cheese.
Very controversial.
I love, yeah.
Well, some people thinkcottage cheese is like nasty.

Heather (03:18):
Oh.
'cause it looks, it looks horrible.
It looks disgusting.
Cottage cheese is one of those thingsI can have in a very small bowl.
Yeah.
I started eating it in rehab.
I was like, I guess we'll try new things.
Yeah.
But I, if it, when I see it inits bucket, I'm like, oh yeah.
Like a vat of cottagecheese, a vat of anything.
Yeah.
Really.
Fair enough.
Okay.
Yeah.
So this is from Spain.

(03:39):
We love Spain.
We love a European wine.
Very exciting.
They have them in.
A rose, I think a whiteand a sparkling white.
Um, but I haven't tried them at all yet.
I'm very excited.
Alana is gonna come on thepod and tell us all about it.
Oh, that's cool.
Is this a twist?

Paige (03:58):
Yeah, it's okay.

Heather (03:59):
Let's twist.

Paige (04:00):
Pants are sweaty 'cause I'm nervous.

Heather (04:02):
Is it weird to drink wine with me again?
Kind, right.
You're like, oh, is this zerozero or is she razing me?
Okay, let's pour her in.
Bubble, bubble toil and trouble.
Why not the whole thing, you know me.

Paige (04:16):
Fire burning and co bubble.

Heather (04:18):
I also wanna point out that September is fucking
National Recovery Month.
Oh

Paige (04:23):
really?
Yeah.
So what a happy recovery month andhappy recovery month to you too.
Thank you.
This is really great.
That's true.
I always forget to countmyself amongst the recovered.
I know

Heather (04:33):
you're

Paige (04:33):
a

Heather (04:33):
lunatic too.
Yeah.

Paige (04:34):
Oh, I'm

Heather (04:35):
Ill.
She didn't

Paige (04:35):
know.

Heather (04:36):
It's 'cause you've never put anything up your nose.
You don't know that you had a problem's.
True.

Paige (04:40):
Well, there's one.
No you.
Really?
Yeah.
One time in like a bar bath,you know, classic college stuff.
Bar, bathroom, I think, I thinkmy friend told me it was Molly,
and I think it was cocaine becausethe way I behaved afterwards Yeah.
Indicates

Heather (04:56):
Molly

Paige (04:58):
indicates cocaine.

Heather (04:59):
Oh.
Indicates cocaine

Paige (05:00):
and the way it was administered.
But I never was interested in hard drugs.
Okay.
Like, I would drinkand I would smoke weed.
Mm-hmm.
But the stuff, like the scary stuff, I wasalways like, Ooh, I don't need to touch.
I had like a healthy fear of it, I think.
Yeah.

Heather (05:16):
I did too at first, and I just was

Paige (05:17):
like, Hmm, that's like the devil.
I don't need to know.
Do you

Heather (05:21):
remember the first time we drank together?

Paige (05:24):
Okay.
I don't know if, um,oh, was it at my house?
Did you steal my dad's beer

Heather (05:31):
with With R. With R. Your friend R.

Paige (05:33):
Yes.

Heather (05:34):
I won't say their name, but, um, how are they?

Paige (05:37):
Um, I don't know.
Okay.
We're not really connected.
Interesting anymore.
I like, every few years, one of uswill send the other one a message
and just be like, Hey, love you, hopeyou're doing well, kind of thing.
Yeah.
One of those, I honestly have no idea.
Dang.
But I love her.

Heather (05:50):
Yeah.
But that, you guys had, that was young, sothat would've been probably seventh grade.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe sixth grade.

Paige (05:58):
I, I came in sixth grade.
Sixth grade.
But I know that I didn't starttaking one of, and I would
take like, literally one Yeah.
Of my dad's beers.
Yeah.
Till I was like closer to, Iwas probably like 13, maybe 12.

Heather (06:12):
Okay.
Yeah.
So like grade six seven.
Grade seven

Paige (06:14):
probably.

Heather (06:15):
I came over to your house and this was funny because you and me, I think
a big theme of our friendship, especiallyfor me, has been competition Uhhuh.
Like, oh, should wecheers this, by the way?
Yeah.
We didn't even try.
Cheers.
I love you so much.
I'm so glad.
Thank you for coming.
Ah.

Paige (06:34):
No, that's

Heather (06:34):
really good.
Damn.
I love a wine.
Thank you, Alana.
This is amazing.

Paige (06:40):
I'm always like, how do you make a non-alcoholic wine?
Still tastes like wine.
I,

Heather (06:43):
but it's the distill.
She told me that sometimes inEurope, like they'll, they'll
bring it to two different places.
Like they'll distill it twice.
Mm.
But yeah, because sometimes whennon-alcoholic wine first came
out, I was like, this is raisins.
It just tasted like raisins.
Yeah, that's what I've always

Paige (06:59):
heard, that it just tasted like, or like grape juice kind of
thing, that it wasn't really that good.
'cause I knew like pregnantpeople who would like, and I'm
like, what's, I'd rather just.
The sparkling water at that point.
But this is actually really good.
Yeah, I would absolutely drink that.

Heather (07:11):
It is nice to, instead of a glass of wine, I ro this is like what I've al
I've, I romanticize wine so much and liketo be able to, and it's, it is fine for
me for some people, like, I'm sure it'slike triggering or whatever for me, it's
so nice to just be able to sit down,drink a glass of wine, chill the fuck out.
Mm-hmm.
And then go on with my day and have agreat sleep and wake up the next morning.
Like, it's,

Paige (07:30):
it's the experience and the, it's the whole thing.
What it feels like.
What it represents

Heather (07:34):
a facade.
Yeah.
Rich.
And I love champagne, so.
Yeah.
Um, for the first time we drank together.
Mm-hmm.
I was so scared because I thought youtwo were so fucking cool because you
were, you guys were like weird littlegoths and I didn't know about goths.
Like I was just like, youknow, me and my suburb.
I didn't know about goths.

(07:55):
And then you came to the school andsomehow you were like, still goth.
Seen.
Mm-hmm.
Seen?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yet we were wearing like uniforms,but you would still find a
way to do like black streak.
There was always a

Paige (08:06):
way to bend the rules story of my life.
That is true.
Did you get into a lot of

Heather (08:12):
trouble as a kid?
No.

Paige (08:14):
No.
Not a lot of trouble, but when I did getin trouble, it was usually big trouble.
Big trouble.
So things like, the first time Igot way too drunk when I was 15,
and that's the only time I was evergrounded and I was in so much trouble.
Where were you?
Um, the basement of like, some kidthat I was with the same friend.

Heather (08:37):
Okay.

Paige (08:37):
Um, our, I was with her and I was with like a couple of guys that she
knew from school or whatever in town.
Mm-hmm.
And we drank like, we were like 15.
We drank like tequila and Kool-Aidand I threw up all over the rug
and my mom came and picked us up.
It was Halloween, me and Halloween,and she took me to the hospital.
My brother had to carry me intothe house and then she ended

(08:59):
up taking me to the hospital.
She was really worried and she, well, Iwas so, I only drank, I was so messed up.
I was like a hundred pounds.
I, I was gonna say like,

Heather (09:06):
you're a very tiny person.
Back then you were likemaybe a hundred pounds.
Yeah.
And that

Paige (09:10):
was the first, well, not the first time that I got drunk.
That's not true.
But the first time that I got twodrunk and got sick and stuff like that.
And, um, she took me to thehospital 'cause she was convinced
I'd like taken drugs or something.
'cause I was so out of it.
Yeah.
And then they just like put meon an IV and kept me overnight.
Nice.
And I was grounded.
Did they yell in your face?

(09:31):
Um, not so much.
That's not really my parents' style.
They, not much of yellers inmy household, but like, I don't

Heather (09:39):
know if I've ever heard them yell.

Paige (09:41):
I have, and in both, both cases, mom and dad, it's scary.
It's like, you know, when they getmad enough to get like that, then it's
like, oh my God, this is so scary.
Yeah.
Um, but more like that really,really intense disappointment.

Heather (09:54):
So much worse

Paige (09:55):
and so much worse.
Yeah.
And as like a, a genuine people pleasergrowing up I was like, oh no, you're

Heather (10:02):
mad at me.
And that was like enough.
I find it interesting though,because you were such a good kid.
So like you getting in trouble, like Iwould've figured, 'cause at this time
too, when, when I went to high school, Ifeel like you and I didn't talk that much.

Paige (10:14):
Yeah.
You came to a couple parties with me.

Heather (10:17):
I did.
And we were playing made out

Paige (10:18):
with boys.

Heather (10:20):
What were their names?
Who was, what was the first andlast initial of the name of the guy
that I made out with in Bray side?

Paige (10:28):
I wanna say it was a G. What is it?

Heather (10:34):
That's

Paige (10:34):
it.

Heather (10:35):
That's it.
He was so hot.
But he's bald now, right?
I think so.
Yeah.
That's okay.
He was a good kisser.
That was like the first time I felt likeI was a teenager when I was like, no, I
would've already gone to college, I think.
'cause I didn't kiss a boy till I was.
This might be somethingyou actually don't know.
Can I confess somethingfucking crazy to you right now?
Yeah.

(10:56):
No.
I think you already know whatthat boyfriend that I had.
Yeah.
You know that he didn't exist?
No.

Paige (11:09):
Okay.
I knew it.
What you knew knew.
I knew you.
Well.
I didn't know that little liar.
I knew it.
And you never admitted that to me.
And the number of elaboratestories you told me

Heather (11:20):
I know about this boy that was not real.
He was a real person.
He was brothers with my friend.
Okay.
But we never talked.
Kiss, touched her, ever spoke.
Okay.

Paige (11:32):
I feel really validated right now.
I feel

Heather (11:34):
really bad.
Don't feel bad.
It's kind of hilarious.
It's crazy.
I was having my like first romantic orsexual experiences with a fake person.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
You know what?
I love the, the scar.
I feel like at that time you werestarting to be friends with the

(11:56):
armed Pryor boys and so you had aphone and I had a phone and you were
texting boys and I was so jealous.
I always felt like you hadmore of a life than me.
And so I think probably if I'm goingback into my kid brain, I was just
like, oh, I want, I need to be cool.
Like I need to be ahead of her.
You know it cra it made me crazywhen you got a bra before me.

(12:18):
It fucking made me crazy.
Oh my God, Kate, I was so mean to you.
But your boobs, I'm

Paige (12:22):
sorry.
So many things going right.
We haven't even started.
No, but I feel like it needs to be saidthat, like you kind of said, like for
you, you felt like our friendship waskind of competitive when we were younger.
We have always loved each other so deeply.
We went to a school where, mm-hmm.
There were not a lot of eligiblefriends around, like very small

(12:45):
school, very small classroom sizes.
So we latched onto each other immediately.
We latched onto each other.
When you came to visit the schoolin fifth grade From my visit,
I was like mine and I was like,guess this is my new best friend.
Um, which I love to joke that Heatherwas assigned to be my friend because
she was literally told like there's anew girl coming to like, yeah, see the

(13:05):
school and you have to take her aroundand basically make her wanna come here.
And

Heather (13:09):
I was really the only one who could do that.

Paige (13:11):
You succeed.
You were the only one for the job.
Kind of duped me.
We'll say I need, no, you know whatyou're like I need someone to trauma bond

Heather (13:20):
with.
I think that's probably true.
I think if I had like known what I wasdoing, I was like, I'm manipulating
this bitch to come be my best friend.
'cause what is going on here?

Paige (13:27):
But the funny thing to me is so like.
My point is we spent so much time togetherand we were at that school from like
8:00 AM till 5:30 PM Monday to Friday.
Mm. And it was just so much time together.
And then sometimes spendingtime together on the weekends.
Like you weren't dancing.
I wasn't dancing, whatever.

Heather (13:43):
Mm-hmm.
Or skipping school to go snowboarding.
Remember when our mom taught us do that?
So

Paige (13:46):
that's the coolest thing my mom's ever done.
Same.
So cool.
Ever.
Mm-hmm.
Um, 'cause she would make me go

Heather (13:51):
to school sick.
She made me go to schoolwith a broken arm.
I mean Yeah, you showed up to school andlike immediately passed out once, twice.
Twice,

Paige (13:59):
right.
Yeah.
Um, but she did let me skip school to gosnowboarding with you, which was sick.

Heather (14:04):
Yeah.
Um, I think she probablyknew we needed that.

Paige (14:06):
Yeah, I think so.
But anyway, so I just, I feel like.
So that's kinda like the groundwork there.
But there was, we spent so much timewith each other and everyone fights
with their friends when they're young.
Yeah.
But we spent so much time with each otherand we were both sort of, I feel like
always vying for who's the smartest one?
Who's the prettiest one?
Yeah.

Heather (14:26):
Who has the bo who has, who's dating Justin?
Yeah.
Like, I feel like I can say it.
Yeah.
Excuse me.
I dated him for like two seconds insixth grade and then fifth grade.
That's when you were coming to the school.
And I was afraid of boys and thatcontinued on, but I didn't date him
till grade nine for like almost a year.
I know.
And then you like big dated him.

Paige (14:42):
Mm-hmm.
You like he was a nice boy.

Heather (14:46):
Can I mention the first time you had sex?
Sure.
The first time that Paige had sex,I, the first time you had sex?
I was,
I was thrown into a spiral after that.
I, I remember

Paige (14:59):
telling you about

Heather (15:00):
that on my driveway.
Yeah.
And you were wearingthose American Eagle like.
Patch Plaid walker shorts.
Those were cute

Paige (15:07):
little shorts.
I

Heather (15:08):
know.
In your little butt.
I remember your butt.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I do know you buy your butt morethan I know you by your face, I think.
Yeah.

Paige (15:13):
Yeah.

Heather (15:13):
Um, and I was like, oh fuck.
I'm not there at all.
And I think that's where I reallystarted to feel us separate because
I was like, I'm never gonna have sex.
I'm not there at all.
I've never kissed a boy.
I've been lying about it,but I've never touched a boy.
We've never held hands,except for with Alec.
How are you?
How about you, by the way, I miss him.

(15:35):
Oh, I feel so bad forwe're so mean to him.
Well, that's what happens.
Kay.
But now he's like married, I think.
Is he good for him?
I don't know.
I think probably they all are andthey're all like in the mountains.
A lot of them left andwent to the mountains.
Yeah.
Didn't he start

Paige (15:48):
kayaking a lot or something?
Camping.
I feel like I remember somethingabout outside, outside that on
social media, outside people.

Heather (15:54):
Yeah.
Um, and that was really hard for me.
And I remember that being like a.What the fuck am I gonna do now?
Like, I'm gonna have tolie about having sex.
Like this is crazy.

Paige (16:05):
See, it's so funny to me that you felt like you were trying to keep up with
me because I feel like I spent so muchof my life trying to keep up with you.
Yeah.
But just I guess in different ways.
Yeah.
Because, well, I, like, I wasn'tscared of boys and I was like, yeah.
You know, so I think that wassomething that like I just matured
with a little bit more quickly.
Yeah.
And not even in likea bad way to be clear.

(16:27):
Like I feel very good about theway that like my experiences went.
Totally.
And I had some good boyfriends and Ihad some, not great boyfriends, but
I was always kind of dating somebody.
Yeah.
Like with whatever level ofseriousness you can when you're
in high school and stuff.
Yeah.
Um, so I feel like maybe I was doingthat stuff more and it's so funny that

(16:49):
you think like, I was so cool with likemy little, like my eyeliner and my leg.
Evanescence playlist.
Your long, your long blackspurts, and you're like, oh.
Which are kind of back in right now.
And I'm like, I know I have one.
Excuse me.
'cause you definitely made funof me for wearing that before.
Um, 100%.
But it's so funny.
I'm jealous of you.

(17:09):
Well, but I always, this is now justgonna turn into us, like telling each
other how cool we are for the next hour.
But I always was like,Ugh, Heather's so cool.
I was always like, wheredid you get that outfit?
Because how do I get that out?
Because we weren't shoppingat the same places.
Like you were wearing like Abercrombieand like all this kind of stuff,
and you had like all these cool,like more like preppy mm-hmm.

(17:30):
Kind of outfits.
And I was like, oh, well Heather'sreally cool and everybody likes her.
So like, I should now do that.
And like you have this hugepersonality and you're super funny
and you walk in a room, you starttalking, everybody pays attention.
Mm-hmm.
It's just the way it has always been.
Like whether they're like, oh my God,this girl's hilarious and I wanna be her
friend, which I think is like most people.

(17:50):
Or they're like, oh my God, wheredid this girl just come from?
Like she just came in and suckedall the oxygen out of the room.
But I don't even mean that in a bad way.
I was so envious of that becauseI come across extroverted, but
I'm actually like a very okay,introverted person at my core.
And I can be shy in new social situations.
And I feel like you could just walkin a room and I'm like, and you were
this incredibly talented dancer.

(18:12):
Mm. And there were just so many things.
I felt like you did somuch better than me.
And I felt like I was always tryingto be cool enough to be your friend.
Really?
Which, yeah.
Which is why when we grew apart, I waslike, Ugh, I didn't make the fucking cut.

Heather (18:26):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
We'll get into all of that.
I. It's so funny 'cause I, Ifelt the same way about you.
I was like, she's this new girl.
We're all like old news now.
You're coming in in grade five.
Yeah.
You were also like so tiny.
Which was like always interesting to me.
Like I, I was, I've always beenobsessed with like being tiny.

(18:47):
Mm-hmm.
Like I wanna be tiny.
And I was like, oh my God, she's soskinny and little and she's wearing
glasses so that means she's smart.
Which is, I still think thatactually just a lazy eye.

Paige (18:56):
But we can go with the smart thing bumping into walls

Heather (19:00):
that's cuter.
You were also extremely smart andthat was very hard for me also.
Well, yeah.
Okay, so listen up until Paige got there,I was winning the French award and then
Paige got there and immediately won

Paige (19:13):
the French award.
I knew the French award was gonna come up.
I'll never let it go.
I knew it was gonna come up.
I came from French immersion though.
Yeah.

Heather (19:19):
So it wasn't there.
And then into

Paige (19:20):
a school where I'm not confident that the French teacher knew French.
So

Heather (19:25):
at the well, and that's exactly right.
Where is she?
Dead.

Paige (19:29):
Oh

Heather (19:30):
God.
Do

Paige (19:30):
you know if

Heather (19:30):
any of them are

Paige (19:30):
dead?
I have.
Mm. I mean the founder,the founder is dead.
I've been on, she was a hundred and some.

Heather (19:36):
Have you seen the Reddit posts about it?

Paige (19:39):
No.
Show me later.

Heather (19:39):
Apparently.
Apparently a lot of abuse,which makes sense to me.
Yeah.
Can we talk a little bitabout private school?

Paige (19:48):
Yeah.

Heather (19:49):
So in the beginning of this pod, I talked about my story.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of my storystarts at private school.
Yeah.
I was there two yearsbefore you were there.
Mm-hmm.
And a lot of it had already started.
Yeah.
And I'm just wondering whatwas your experience like there?
Like did you have, 'cause I feellike we've kind of gone over this

(20:09):
in our lives and I just feel likewe had somehow completely different
situations being best friends inthe same class every single year.

Paige (20:17):
Yeah.
I think, I think it's hard becauseI think the way that I look at
those experiences now is an adult.
Mm-hmm.
Now that I'm like informed differently,I reflected, I'm like, oh, wait a second.
Mm-hmm.
More red flags than I maybe would'verealized at the time as a kid.

(20:37):
Yeah.
And as a kid you're just kind ofin it and you're just trying to
survive and there's so many otherthings you're worrying about.
Mm-hmm.
That at least for me, I wasn't necessarilyalways focused on what was happening
in the classroom or with my teachers.
Yeah.
Um, that said, I came from asituation where I was being
bullied in public school.

(20:58):
Yeah.
Like badly from the time Ifirst went to school, always
the smallest kid in the class.
Glasses, you know, dumbstuff that like who cares?
Yeah.
But when you're six, you care whensomeone makes fun of you for that stuff.
Yeah.
Um.
So for me, there was this reliefwhen I went to private school because
I wasn't being bullied anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
My friends weren't being mean to me.

(21:19):
Like I met a friend who liked hangingout with me and wanted me to be there,
and I was like, how cool is this?
Yeah.
And like the boys weren't makingfun of me 'cause they were all
scared of me for some reason.

Heather (21:30):
They, oh my god, they, so they still are.
That was Chip

Paige (21:33):
on my shoulder has always taken me far with that.

Heather (21:35):
Mm-hmm.

Paige (21:36):
Um, but yeah, like, so I think there was a relief for me initially.

Heather (21:40):
Yeah.

Paige (21:41):
And um, I think that went over really well.
That said, we do have someexperiences that we kind of
shared, like in Mr. T's class.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then there were some things for methat came up after you'd left the school.
'cause you left after grade eight.
Mm-hmm.
And I was there for nine and 10.
Yeah.
And I feel like I took a lot of heat.

(22:05):
Grade nine and grade 10 at that school.
So for me it was sort of later.

Heather (22:09):
Okay.

Paige (22:10):
I think by that, like you became

Heather (22:12):
the me kinda,

Paige (22:13):
honestly, I've, I've thought about it a lot and it's almost like
there was no other outlet for it.
So it was like, well, who isthe next, who's next in line?
Yeah.
And I think we all know people like that.
Mm-hmm.
Because like I've hadbosses like that at work.
Yeah.
I've known people like that in school.
I've had like so many differentpeople I've come across like that

(22:34):
who they kind of pick a person.
Right.
And they pick and they pick and they pick.
Mm-hmm.
And when they beat that person down andthey're no longer standing in front of
them, they move on to somebody else.
Yeah.
And I feel like thathappened to me a little bit.
I think it was also hard for meas I got older at that school
because it was very conservative.
Mm-hmm.
And I was not.
Yeah.
And I had a boyfriend who waslike the golden boy at the school.

(22:58):
Yeah.
And so the whole narrative was.
Keep tabs on them.
Paige is gonna corrupt him.
Right, right.
Okay.
Teenage boy, gimme a break.
Like, could not have beenfurther from the truth.
It starts so

Heather (23:11):
early.
It's so early.
Like how could that have been your fault?
It's crazy.
Like,

Paige (23:16):
so, and that was a very, and to be clear, it's not, I'm not saying that
he was like, no, but make me do anything.
No, but if anyone's being nice,

Heather (23:23):
it's like, why

Paige (23:23):
Is it just you?
Yeah.
It's just like so funny to me and likeI wasn't doing anything that other
15, 16 year olds aren't doing, likewanting to talk to a boy or kiss a boy
or hold hands with a boy or whatever.
Yeah.
But it's like I, I wasreally bullied by staff.
Grade nine particularly, andthen it's like when I wasn't
dating him anymore in grade 10.
Oh, it stopped?

(23:44):
Yeah.
Or got better.
Mm. But I, by that point, I hadsuch a chip on my shoulder from
being bullied as a kid Yeah.
And deciding like, I want to beconfident, I wanna be this person
that I just kind of took it.

Heather (23:56):
Okay.
Yeah.

Paige (23:58):
You seem to take things, don't feel like traumatized from it, because I'm just
like, yeah, you were being an asshole.

Heather (24:02):
Yeah.

Paige (24:03):
Like, yeah, whatever, dude.
Like, I'm not gonna listen to you.

Heather (24:07):
Yeah.
And I, I, I wonder what that is if Ijust got caught up in it too early or
if I just didn't have that objective.
Objectivity, objectiveness, whatever.
I don't know.
I couldn't take things inthe way that you could.
You always, I remember youbeing yelled at or you being
in trouble and you not crying.
Oh, being in the dean's office?
Yeah.
Oh my God.
And being in trouble.
And you, the second I steppedin, I would start crying.

(24:29):
But you did not.
And I was like, what thefuck is all this about?
Yeah.
I don't know.
He would keep me therebecause I was upset.
Yeah.
And you got to go.

Paige (24:35):
I feel like maybe you had more of like a fear of authority
and I, I don't like confrontation.
I do not like conflict.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I can hold my own Yeah.
In a conflict situation.
Yeah.
And I just go to the

Heather (24:47):
wind.

Paige (24:48):
I feel like you would just kind of shut down, get quiet and stuff like that.
And I think that there's a lot of thiI don't know, and I don't know if this,
this is like such a crazy thing to say.
I don't know if this has anythingto do with why one person becomes,
um, addicted to alcohol and abusesalcohol and stuff like that.
And one person doesn't whenthey've been through like
similar traumas and situations.
I've always just kind of been able tolike let things roll off my back, be upset

(25:12):
about it, and then be like, I can't changethat, and all I can do is the next thing.
Yeah.
And I feel like you sit in stuffand it affects you really deeply.
Yeah.
I'm a sensitive person too.
Yeah.
But it's like there are thingsthat affect you long term that
maybe wouldn't affect me long term.
Yeah.
Is 'cause we process stuff differently.

Heather (25:30):
Yeah.
We really do.
I, and I think, I think withthat whole thing, I don't think
I even really realized that Iwas holding onto it for so long.
Mm-hmm.
But it just kept coming up and everythingI was doing, and then finally when
I got sober, I was able to go totherapy and be like, what the fuck?
Well, rehab was good for this too, butlike learning what that whole thing was

(25:50):
and why it affected me and like mm-hmm.
It's really, really hard.
Like I feel like it's still hard tothis day because sometimes I feel like
my story isn't true because itdidn't happen to you, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it did happen alittle bit more to be.
But I just, I always felt likemy anger and hate towards him,

(26:12):
like, you didn't have it as much.
And that would frustrate me because Iwas like, fuck, why am I just crazy?
Like, am I not supposed tobe upset about this stuff?
Like mm-hmm.
You know, but we did have verydifferent experiences, or like the
way we received it was different.

Paige (26:25):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I, I think for me, because I, maybebecause I was at that school for a little
bit longer, and as I got older mm-hmm.
There were certain adults at that school,staff members or teachers or whatever, who
I had really positive relationships with.

Heather (26:38):
Yeah.

Paige (26:39):
And so I think that softens the blow of the negative relationships, right?
Like, yeah.
The principal was so mean tome when I was in grade nine.
Like, she was so meanat every opportunity.
It made me feel like I was always likegonna do something like really bad.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I felt like that too.
She known me, you know, like callingme out for stuff in front of the

(27:00):
entire dining room full of kids andlike, now you're yelling at me because
my hair isn't to code or whatever.
In front of like everybody.
Like, thanks.
That's not very nice of you callingus out for just stupid stuff.
Someone bringing alcohol toschool and that was our fault.
That was so nuts because she saidthat she was trying to impress us.
Yeah.
And be cool like us in gradesix, we weren't drinking alcohol.

(27:22):
I was

Heather (27:23):
terrified of alcohol at that time.
I was terrified.
I was like, this is, I forgotten this all

Paige (27:26):
about that.
That was so weird.
I was like, she's gonnaget blame for her bringing.
Alcohol to school.
That was a weird situation.
I know.
But anyway, yeah.
I just, I don't know if the fact thatI had some positive relationships
along with that, that it like softensthe blow of the negative ones.
'cause I still felt like I had safeplaces to go within that school.
Yeah.
And like there were some teachers thatI really loved and that I'm really

(27:47):
grateful for the way that they taught me.
And like so many things I think Idiscovered that I could do or be good at.
Yeah.
Or that I enjoyed and Iwouldn't have known that if it
weren't for certain teachers.
Yeah.
So for that, I'm verygrateful I got an education.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
It's not like any of my otherschool experiences were perfect.

(28:08):
Right.
So I'm like, you know, it is what it is.
Like I was bullied by kids at oneschool and I was bullied by staff at
the next Yeah, you're like far for their

Heather (28:15):
course, babe.
This is my life.
We kind of touched on this, butI left, actually, the way that
I left that school was because Itold my mom that you were leaving.
And so I know I got to leaveand she was so fucking mad after
she was like, was she really?
You said that Paige wasleaving too and now.
And I'm like, wow.
I left for a semester.
You did?
Or like a term you did leave, which isvery Was I left for For a few months.

(28:36):
Yeah.
And I went

Paige (28:37):
back, which I think about.
I'm like, that was so crazy.

Heather (28:40):
Well, it's not crazy because that's where you were comfortable,
regardless of what the fuck was happening.
Mm-hmm.
You'd been there though.
That was your family.
We were there eight to five 30.
Yeah.
That's your whole family.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
So it does make sense to go back.
It's like Stockholm Syndrome.
It's like an abused wife.
They go back, it takeslike seven tries often.
Yeah.
That's a lot of tries.

(29:00):
That's a lot of tries.
But I get it.
It's like sobriety.
Yeah.
So.
Ninth grade, I leave, I goto public school and this is
where you and I start to drift.

Paige (29:11):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (29:11):
For obvious reasons.
I'm in school, I'm dancing.
I'm like, not at private school,you start dating someone.
And I guess that first year weprobably were still really close.
Mm-hmm.
And then it, and then bythe end of high school,
we just weren't seeing eachother as much, I guess.
Yeah.
What's your perspective of that time?

(29:32):
Because I'm trying to go backto that time and that feels
a little less controversial.

Paige (29:36):
Yeah.
It's blurry.
I am not one for having the bestmemory, like welcome to the pod,
constantly forgetting thingsin the middle of my sentence.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like my husband can tellme where, when Yeah.
How we had any conversationand I'll be like, I have no
recollection of this ever happening.
Yeah.
Um, so I would say at that time, I thinkjust like you were really busy with dance.

(30:02):
Mm-hmm.
I was busy with work and dance andschool and whatever, and then dating
and I had kind of started partying,so I was always busy on the weekends.
Right.
With like my high schoolfriends and stuff.
So I don't feel like, it didn'tfeel like an intentional separation.
Yeah.
And we would still text each otherdown and then, or call each other.
Yeah.
So I still kind of had tabs onyou and knew what you were doing.

(30:24):
Mm-hmm.
Sort of.
Um, and I feel like it was vice versa.
And then it wasn't reallytill you went to Boston.
Yeah.
And I don't think that's entirelyyour fault because at the same time
that is probably when I had like amental health crisis when I went away.
Yeah.
I think to school at, what was Ryerson?
What's it called now?

Heather (30:44):
Uh, Toronto Metropolitan University.
Yeah.
And

Paige (30:46):
I only did one semester there and then I came home
'cause I was such a wreck.
Right.
So I, your mental stuff, I think wewere both going through crazy shit.
Yeah.
And we just didn't talk.

Heather (30:55):
This is the weirdest thing because when we're kids, we're competing.
I think you're cooler.
You think I'm cooler,you think I'm prettier.
I think you're prettier.
All these things.
It's like obviously you can't when you'rea kid, but if we could have just sat down
and been like, Hey, this is how I feel.
This is how you feel.
Yeah.
Same with university.
That feels like we should havebeen leaning on each other.

Paige (31:13):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (31:13):
But in my opinion, like for me, I felt like anytime a
mental thing would come up, I wouldjust pull away from everybody.
Yeah.
Like I had zero.
I couldn't, yeah.
I couldn't do it.
Yeah.
And then you being not with me,like you being in a different
country or even a different city.
I like it was, I couldn'tlike I didn't know how.
Yeah.

Paige (31:32):
It's like how, how do you at 18, 19 call up your friend
and be like, I'm not Okay.
Yeah.
When you yourself don't even reallyunderstand maybe that you're not okay.
Yeah.
Or the extent of it.
And in hindsight, it is so crazy becausewe were both probably going through
very similar things at the same time.

(31:53):
But we both felt alone in it.
Like, and for me, I didn't tell anybody.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I didn't, I didn't tell anybody whenI was like deep in my eating disorder.
Yeah.
I didn't say anything to my parents,my brother, any of my friends.
Oh.
Like nobody knew what I was dealing with.
The only thing I remember ismy mom coming and seeing my res

(32:14):
room, which was such a mess.
Which is so funny.
'cause like really?
You know me now.
Yeah.
I'm at clothes everywhere,like just a disaster and stuff.
It's a tell.
And I just remember her lookingat me and she was mad at me
because my mom is like, clean.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
But she was like, Paige, this is likehow really depressed people live.
Mm-hmm.
And like even in that moment, Iwasn't like, oh, I'm depressed.

Heather (32:36):
Right.
You're like, I'm fucking up.
I'm doing something wrong.
I'm messy.

Paige (32:38):
Yeah.
So like you just don't know at thatage to be like, Hey, somebody help.
Yeah.

Heather (32:44):
You don't know.
Especially when it's body stuff.
When it's like an eating disorder,you're not going to tell anyone.
You're not gonna be like, Hey, nowI have a bad feeling about my body.
Yeah.
You're just gonna handle it or try It

Paige (32:55):
feels very shameful.
Oh, yeah.
And like something youvery much have to hide.
And I think especially at thattime, it was just something
people didn't talk about.
Yeah.
And if they did, it was like, we sawit in the press that like, you know,
like whatever celebrity, Lindsay Lohan,

Heather (33:09):
Nicole

Paige (33:09):
Richie, those were our girls, is going, that we
rehab for an eating disorder.
Yeah.
And like how, and like it waspainted to be this like really
embarrassing, evil, awful thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So of course we didn't wanna tell anybody.

Heather (33:20):
No.
Well I wouldn't have ever evenmade that connection that like,
oh, this is kind of what I'm doing.
Like there's no way, Iam not famous, I'm not.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a celebrity.
I don't know.
But I think the idea sometimesI hear like, oh, well why
didn't you just tell someone?
Why didn't you talk to me about it?
It's like.
In what world was a, my addiction or myeating disorder gonna let me tell anyone?

(33:41):
Mm-hmm.
And B, I'm like, I didn't want to stop.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you don't wanna stop whenyou're in it, you're doing something.

Paige (33:47):
Yeah.
And I'm also always kind oflike, well, nobody ever asked.
Yeah.
You know, like, and it's funny becauseI've had friends be like, oh, well I
noticed this was weird or that was weird.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, you never justthought, maybe I'll ask.

Heather (33:58):
Yeah.
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
My sister's like that too.
My sister, there's like a lot of thingsand I, I don't think she feels bad.
I don't want her to feel bad, butthe like, did you notice that?
And she's like, yeah, I mean, youwere definitely gaining weight.
But like, I didn't really know.
I'm like, how big wereyou gonna let me get?
Like what was I gonna have to explode atyour front door for you to be like mm-hmm.

(34:19):
Maybe she is have has a problem.
Yeah.
Like, holy moly.
Yeah.
How did your eating disorder start?
I.

Paige (34:28):
Um, I could tell you the exact moment, which is so funny 'cause I'm
like, oh, I have like no memory of things.
Oh my God.

Heather (34:33):
Okay.

Paige (34:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I feel like this really deeds atrigger warning if I go into detail.
Um, the whole po a trigger warning,honestly, when walking Yeah.
Trigger.
Um, so I remember because Ihad just been on interest in
kind of like an alcohol binge.

(34:54):
Okay.
And so, to be clear, because thishasn't been said yet, I don't
think, I'm not a sober person.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but also not an addict,but also not an addict.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Not a problem.
However, I've had times mm-hmm.
In the past, particularly when I wasyounger, where I think I was using
alcohol in a way that was very unhealthyand maybe as a coping mechanism.
Sure.

(35:16):
Um, but absent of likephysical addiction, right?

Heather (35:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Paige (35:21):
Um, so I had been on kind of an alcohol binge for.
A while at school, going away toschool, and I got to a point where
I was drinking too much and asa result, I wasn't eating well.
Mm. And I wasn't exercising as muchbecause I'd gone away to school.
So I wasn't dancing anymore.

(35:41):
And I had started working out towardsthe end of high school and really eating
well because of my migraines and stuff.
Right.
And I was really trying to keepmyself really healthy and I'd kind of
gotten off of all of that stuff whenI went away to school, I think because
I was lonely and I was depressed.
Yeah.
I had a long-term boyfriend who wasback in Ottawa and I was in Toronto.

Heather (35:57):
Yeah.

Paige (35:58):
I didn't know a soul when I moved to Toronto.
Like literally not one person.

Heather (36:02):
Yeah.
In that city.
And when we talk aboutsmall town to big city.
That's you.
Like you lived in a very

Paige (36:08):
small

Heather (36:08):
town, like one streetlight small town.
Yeah.
And knew everybody at high school.
Yeah.
Right.

Paige (36:12):
Yeah.
So it's huge.
It it is.
And it's what I thoughtthat I wanted at the time.
And then I think I went there and I waslike, oh my God, nobody goes outside here.
There's like, I remember thinking that.
I'm like, what the fuck doyou people do all the time?
Indoor cats?
And then I was trying to fit intothis sort of like, idea of, I think
what like all these like GTA kidsthat were at that school were into.

(36:33):
Yeah.
And it was like, who's your dad?
And like, what celebrity didyou see on the street last week?
Who's your dad?
Just like, you know, if like somebody'sdad was rich or something like that.
Oh, famous.
Oh, who's your daddy?
Who's your daddy?
I'm like, what?
Like, I don't remember this, you know?
Um, who's your dad?
I see.
So I think all of that spiraled andI just wasn't in a good place and so

(36:56):
I wasn't feeling good about my body.
Because it was changing, I'dprobably gained some weight.
Yeah.
And I just wasn't takinggood care of myself.
I was feeling really depressed.
I was in a very toxic relationshipthat was long distance.
Mm-hmm.
And I got to the point where Ijust like couldn't take it anymore.
And I had like binged out ona bunch of food and then I

(37:16):
felt disgusting afterwards.
And I was like, the only thing I canthink of that's gonna make me feel better
is if I get this food outta my body.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the first time that I purged.
And that's the only timeI cried when I did it.
Were

Heather (37:27):
you able to do it the first time?

Paige (37:30):
Yep.

Heather (37:30):
Really?
Yep.
Good for you.
Yeah,

Paige (37:33):
I

Heather (37:34):
just, it chucked him back and I, and I don't mean
good for you 'cause That's great.
No, obviously.
Yeah.
It's when you're in that.
It's really hard.
It's hard to do.
Mm-hmm.
It's really hard tomake yourself throw up.
It's like, especially the firsttime, or maybe it's easier the first
time 'cause you're just like, yeah,I feel like it got harder later.
Yeah.
Because like you're, your body gets used.
Used to it.

(37:54):
Yeah.
A little bit.
My right to the elbow.
Yeah.
Like it's crazy.
Pull the food out.
How long was that going on before?
Or how long was that going on?

Paige (38:06):
It's really hard to say.
Um, 'cause again, mytimelines aren't great.
I wanna say about a year.
Okay.
So after you moved

Heather (38:13):
home

Paige (38:13):
Yeah.
Where I would, it was less frequentat a certain point, but, but there
were still times when I would bingeand then I would purge and then there
were times where I would be very,very, very restrictive with myself.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, but then I remember I kindof knew, I had to figure out what
the hell I was doing and fix it.
When it got to the point where itwasn't even a binge and a purge, it

(38:35):
was like, eat a small meal and purge.

Heather (38:37):
Okay, it's everything.
Right.

Paige (38:38):
Eat like a 200 calorie California roll.
And then feel like I have to getrid of it and then get a green tea
on my walk home and like soothe.
It just was, I was like, I can't be, Ican't be throwing up in public bathrooms.
This is fucking crazy.

Heather (38:53):
Yeah.
Did you have that moment whereyou were, was there a time you did
it in somewhere public and werelike, what the fuck am I doing?
Yeah,

Paige (38:59):
yeah.
Literally that exact scenarioI ate like California rolls or
some little sushi little mm-hmm.
I was a skinny girl meal.
Right.
And then 40 calories.
I walked directly to the Tim Horton's,threw up in the Tim Horton's bathroom,
got a green tea, sat there forfive minutes, felt like everyone
in the establishment must knowthere's no one else in the bathroom.
Yeah.
Nobody knew.
Nobody cares.
But you have that deep shame.

(39:20):
Yeah.
Like it feels like this paranoia.
Yes.
And then I went back to myboyfriend's apartment and I just
said to myself like, I have tofigure out how to make this better.
And I somehow did without professionalhelp, which I don't recommend.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And, and you just stopped doing it.
Um.
I stopped purging.
Mm-hmm.

(39:41):
I was still being restrictive at timesand I was still binging at times, but
I, in my brain I was like, well, it'sfine 'cause I'm not yaking anymore, so.
Okay.

Heather (39:51):
Were you okay to eat and not throw up though?
Like were you getting, like, were youin a place where like, oh it's okay
'cause I'll just eat less tomorrow?
Or were you like, oh my God, Iwish I could throw up right now?

Paige (40:01):
Um.
I don't really know.
Okay.
I, I probably would be like, oh, I ate toomuch yesterday so I can eat less tomorrow.
And then eventually I got into,well, I'll just eat really, really
healthy and then it won't matter.
Then everything will be fine becauseI'll be eating really healthy.
Yeah.
In hindsight, that was also not mentallyhealthy because I was in a position where

(40:22):
I was depriving myself of certain foodsor certain quantities of food still, and
I was like, well, I'm feeding myself.
I'm eating three, four meals a day.
Mm-hmm.
You know, doing everything right.
But I'm like absolutely terrified.
To walk into a McDonald's orsomething, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Or like I have to eatbefore I go somewhere.

(40:43):
'cause I don't know what kind offood they're gonna have there.
Totally.
And I think some of that came frommy genuine food sensitivities.
Mm-hmm.
And like limiting certainthings in my diet for my health.
Yeah.
'cause of my migraines and stuff.
And then that snowballed intoeverything is toxic and bad for you.

Heather (40:58):
Okay.
Here we go.
And it was like

Paige (41:00):
this Orthorexic cr, which no one was talking about

Heather (41:04):
at this time.
Nope.
You were just looking healthy.
Like just looking like you werethe most healthy granola mom.

Paige (41:09):
And people like my friends were like, oh, I wish
I could be healthy like you.
I wish I could.
Like, do you know, what do you eat?
And like I started losing weightand people notice that and they're
like, wow, you look really good.
And I remember one of my friend'smoms used to like wax my eyebrows.
I went to see her and she waslike, don't lose any more weight.
Okay.
And she's like, you look good.

(41:30):
Like I could tell she was trying tobe gentle about it, but she was like,
don't lose any more weight though.
And I was like, oh, okay.
Like, ha ha.
But I remember in my brain, I was like.
Yes.
Right.
And like, yeah.
I thought I was better atthat point, which is so crazy.
Oh my God.
It, yeah.
But I was never deathly skinny.
I know.
And then that, wait, well you didget, which messes with your head too.
It messes with your head.

(41:50):
It's like, do I have a problem?
I was thin, but I was never, like, Ididn't, I don't think I ever really looked
unhealthy or malnourished or unwell.
So like for me, I was alwayslike, oh, well it's not that
bad 'cause I'm not that skinny.
Yeah.
And then it was like I did yoga teachertraining and that changed my entire life.
Okay.
That really helped me getbetter in a lot of ways.
Hmm.
When?

(42:11):
When

Heather (42:11):
was that?
Where are we timeline

Paige (42:12):
at this point?
I'm like 20.
Okay.
So it all happened pretty fast.
Okay.
'cause you went toschool at 18, we're back.
Well, I was 19 by thetime I went to school.
Right, right, right.
Now we're back.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I was like 20.
Yeah.
I must've been 20 when I didmy yoga teacher training.
And there's this wholeyogic philosophy that like.

(42:33):
People I find don't really talk aboutwith like western yoga practice.
Mm-hmm.
As much it's like touched on in someclasses, but like it really kind of saved
my life in a way that my dog really, Igot my dog and then I had like something
to live for and it was wonderful.
She's my little all the time.
Like, you saved my life.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.

(42:53):
So I had my dog and I did my yogateacher training and around the
same time I was doing my yogateacher training, my relationship
ended and I was so heartbroken.
That same relationship.
Yeah.
I got my butt dumped and I was soheartbroken and I really thought I
was worthless without this person.
Mm-hmm.
And I had done things in our relationshipthat I wasn't proud of and I was

(43:16):
carrying so much guilt with that.
Yeah.
And I beat myself up foryears and years and years.
And part of that was likethrough my eating disorder,
it was like a self-harm thing.
Totally.
And so anyways, through this yogateacher training, I learned a lot about.
The different sort of branchesof the yogic philosophy.
Mm-hmm.
And this idea ofnon-judgment and non harm.

(43:37):
Okay.
Those were the big ones.
And you can't properlypractice non-judgment if
you're still judging yourself.
Right.
So I had to let go of a lot of stuff.
Hmm.
Yoga and this idea of non harm.
And I'm like, here I am harming my body.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my mind with, and itsounds like so woo woo.
I mean, have you met me?
She's a witch.

(43:57):
She's a witch.
Um, but that was like, the lightscame on and I'm so grateful for that.
And it was very therapeutic even though Ididn't go to maybe like, formal therapy.
And I'm so grateful for that experience.
Wow.
And then after that I started liftingweights and that's when it really,

Heather (44:17):
okay.

Paige (44:18):
Thank God.

Heather (44:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank God we will get into that.
'cause I have a lot of weightquestions and not just about
like, if you lift a lot of weight.
Uh, 'cause I, I really do thinkthat you and your husband are lying
to me that you've never shit your.
Lifting weight?

Paige (44:31):
Not one.
There's no way he pulls duck.
Some people do.
Yeah.
He doesn't really eatwhen he competes though.
'cause he gets anxious.
Oh.
Nothing in the system.
Oh, he's just a girl.
Oh yeah.
He's just

Heather (44:41):
a girl.

Paige (44:41):
Yeah.

Heather (44:42):
Okay.
Well I still don't believeyou, but that's okay.
Um, uh, I, uh, you, you've peedjust have you peed yourself lifting?

Paige (44:49):
No.

Heather (44:49):
Okay.
But I did see a video of a girl peeherself and I did not love that.
Some

Paige (44:52):
people do experience some pelvic floor dysfunction.
So PC by lifting heavy loads.
Okay.
Yeah.

Heather (44:59):
Yeah.
I mean, it makes sense,but it's just not for me.
I just can't be peeing myself in public.
Not anymore.
Um, not anymore.
At, around that time.
Um.
When you had come back.
When you had gone back?
I think I was like, I, I, I don'tremember, but I do have this like little
feeling that I was like, probably annoyedwith you, that you didn't stay in Toronto.

(45:22):
Oh.
In the same way that I was kindof annoyed with everybody for like
being in a bad relationship or likenot doing what they should be doing.
Like, I just, I think I wasprobably stressed with my own life
and I was like taking that out.
And I probably never said anythingabout it, but I was like, the feelings
were like, Ugh, like, she's going home.
Why is she going home?
This is so stupid.

(45:42):
Yeah.
You know?
But obviously I know, like I never,and I, I stopped feeling that way,
but I, but that's not like why,but it must have been that year,
like my, my sophomore year maybe.
Mm-hmm.
I came back to school.
I had lost a fuck ton of weight.
Mm-hmm.
And then I started gaining it all back.
So I I I bet you we saw each otherthat summer before second year

Paige (46:06):
probably.

Heather (46:07):
Yeah.
And maybe that's, yeah, that

Paige (46:08):
checks out.
Maybe that's the make maybe Ihad this boyfriend at that time.

Heather (46:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
And so that was probably okayfor me because at that point I
was running every day and I waslosing weight and not eating.
Mm. And so I felt like I was,uh, like what would you say?
Like I was allowed to see you.
Like, I felt like, oh, it was okay.
So you felt like you couldn't see mewhen you had gained the weight back?

(46:33):
Yeah, when I had gainedall the weight back.
That's when I stopped talking to you.
Like, it's crazy thatyou say gained the weight

Paige (46:39):
back 'cause you were already so skinny.

Heather (46:41):
Right.
But when I, I guess in fresh, like,like, you know when freshman year
you're like, you gain 15 pounds Yeah.
And then you lose a bunch.
Mm-hmm.
But losing all that weight so fastand more, I lost like, I don't know,
like 30 pounds probably in a summer.
And then coming back to schooland being like, okay, go.
I'm like, well I can't hold onto this.
Like I have to eventually I'm gonnabinge everything and be Miss Big.

(47:04):
But I do remember the summer aftermy sophomore year, I was big and I,
or big for me or whatever that was.
Mm-hmm.
But I like remembernot wanting to see you.
I was, this is where it started.
Yeah.
I was scared to come homeand tell you that I was home.
'cause I felt like at that point, a,I was always jealous of your body.

(47:25):
Also like you were, I mean,you were, you were just tiny.
And you like, I don'tknow, you had a pool.
So I'm like, oh, we'regonna be in the pool.
I can't do that.
And I felt so ashamed to seeyou and I don't know why.
'cause even to this day, it's likeyou would've been the one who was
like, bitch, it's fucking fine.
Yeah.
Like, come over as you are.
I don't care.
Yeah.
But for some reason with you, Ijust felt so unworthy in a way.

(47:51):
Or like I just couldn't do it.
And then that got worse and worse.
And then I guess wedidn't talk for a while.

Paige (48:00):
Yeah.
Or very little.
Yeah.
'cause I remember like youFaceTimed me when you were in
Guatemala and stuff a few times.

Heather (48:06):
Okay.
Okay.
So through college.
But it

Paige (48:07):
was sporadic.
Yeah.
Like it was very like,like every few months.
Yeah, a few times a yearwe would kind of talk.
Mm-hmm.

Heather (48:17):
But like that checking in, I feel like that was probably still there.
Yeah.
We just weren't as close.

Paige (48:21):
Yeah.
And I do remember feeling like.
You would be like, oh,I'm gonna be in Ottawa.
Like, I'll come see you.
And I'm like, great, I'mgonna get to see Heather.
And then that week that I knew you weresupposed to be home, you would go dark and
you like wouldn't message me or anything.
Yeah.
And I would always be like, well, what the

Heather (48:36):
fuck?
Like, because I'd probably bedrinking when I would text you and
be like, I'm so excited to see you.
And then I would get sober or I'd be soberand be like, I can't fucking do that.
Yeah.
Are you kidding?
Yeah.
Like, look at me.
There's no way.
And then what happened?
Then I moved to New York.
Mm-hmm.
You were doing your, we

Paige (48:54):
didn't really talk at all, I think when you were in New York.
No.

Heather (48:58):
That

Paige (48:58):
first

Heather (48:58):
time I don't think we did it all.
No.
But then what I remember is like beingback in Toronto, when I moved back,
there was a ti, there was a, it wasa Christmas and I It must have been.
Fuck man.
It was before you got.
I don't even think you were engaged yet.

(49:20):
And I, it was a Christmas andyou texted me and you said, if
you don't see me over this break,you're not gonna be in my wedding.
And that, I don't remember that.
You don't remember that?
See, like you ain Shit.
I don't remember.
In my own life, I don't think itwas a, it probably wasn't like a, a
serious, like you won't be like, itwasn't like a sit down confrontation.

(49:41):
Yeah.
But I think it was like a bitch.
What the fuck?
Yeah.
Like kind

Paige (49:43):
of an ultimatum.

Heather (49:44):
Like a Yeah.

Paige (49:45):
We're friends or we're not.
Well
'Heather: cause that was our whole thing growing up.
Like, we were gonnahave weddings together.
We were gonna live together.
Yeah.
We were
gonna like all that

Heather (49:51):
stuff.
Yeah.
And it really, it really hurt me.
And I went home that Christmas and Ididn't see you and you texted me a bunch.
And then after that, I thinkthat's when we stopped talking.
Mm-hmm.
And that, I hate that.
Mm-hmm.
'cause like.

(50:11):
I mean from, I mean, I don't reallyknow it from your perspective, but from
my perspective, I was in so much painand I wanted to see my best friend, but
I could not let you see me like that.
I was so ashamed.
I had gone so far, like, I just hated,I was so depressed, I was doing nothing.
I was back like in Toronto, beinga fucking loser, working at a rcia,

(50:33):
and I was like, are you kidding?
Like, how, how am I gonna come toyou now and be like, after all this
time, I'm fucking nothing and ugly.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
So that was like my perspectiveof it all, and like, it's shit.

Paige (50:46):
Yeah.
I mean, it makes me so, I kind of feelbad that I texted you that because I'm
like, I wouldn't wanna see me either.
Like, what a

Heather (50:53):
bitch.
It didn't, it didn't feel bitchy at all.
It felt very much like, okay, like I wantyou in my wedding, so can you see me?
Like spin it off the pot kind of thing.
Yeah.
It didn't feel mean, itdidn't feel vicious at all.
It just felt like, hello?
Mm. Yeah.
Well, that's good.

Paige (51:07):
Mm-hmm.
I mean.
It's so funny because I had noidea we weren't talking enough.
Mm-hmm.
For me to know what was going on with you.
So again, that's where, from myperspective, I'm like, okay, so like
you went to Boston Conservatory,you're this incredibly talented dancer.
You finish school there, and thenyou go and you're working as a
dancer in New York and stuff.
I'm like, oh, you're you.

(51:28):
Just like, I'm not cool enough.
Like I'm a country bumpkin.
I moved back to my hometown.
I had worked a bunch of differentkind of odd jobs and stuff.
I'd been a camp counselor, I'd workedretail, and then I'd worked at a bunch
of different gyms and I was like,

Heather (51:43):
gonna cry.

Paige (51:45):
I'd like, and then I was like, oh, well, I'm just a personal trainer.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Like, I'm just a strength coach.
Like, oh, I don't have a cool,like, I'm not working in fashion.
Right.
And I, I don't live in Toronto and I'mnot doing all these cool things that
like Heather probably thinks is cool.
So I'm just not worthy andlike, whatever, because

Heather (52:05):
yeah.

Paige (52:05):
I'm not doing any of these things that, my perception of what
people valued, I guess, in mm-hmm.
That area from my own experienceswhen I had been there.
Yeah.
And maybe that's not fair toyou 'cause that's like implying
that you're really shallow.
No, no.
I just think that's whatit seemed like to you.
We hadn't seen each other in so long,and I think I started to feel like if

(52:27):
something was really bad, like with yourboyfriend or something, you would call me.
Mm-hmm.
And I would be there for you,but then I wouldn't hear from
you the rest of the time.
And I was like, well, like if I'm gonna bethere for you in the, the shitty time, so
I wanna be there for the good stuff too.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I think I just feltkind of slighted in that way.

(52:48):
Yeah.
And I felt a little bit rejectedand so I was like, Hey, well I'm not
gonna keep putting myself out there.
Mm-hmm.
If every time you're in town,you're not gonna come see me.
Yeah.
Because I had no idea.
Like obviously I don't feel thatway now knowing what I know.
Yeah.
And I understand that it reallyhad so little to do with me Yeah.
And everything to do with howyou were feeling at the time.

(53:09):
But that in the moment, that's how I felt.
Yeah.
And I

Heather (53:13):
am, oh my God.
Sorry.
I knew I was gonna fucking cry.
I, I am so sorry.
And I know we've like, gone through this.
Yes.
That is like, so not evenneeded at this point.
No, I know.
But it's just, it's crazy not onlyfor like me to like have be going
through my thing and abandon you, butlike you were going through shit too.
And I could not give one fuck.

(53:33):
I couldn't Yeah.

Paige (53:34):
But you wouldn't have even known because I didn't tell you.
Right.
Right.
It's the same thing.
It's like, you could, how canyou be there for me if I'm not
gonna say I need you here for me?

Heather (53:42):
Why did you keep trying with me

Paige (53:45):
your hard habit to break?
Yeah.
No, I, I mean, I love you so much.
We did, we went througha lot together as kids.
Mm-hmm.
And we were so close, like, I don'tthink that I can properly get across.
The sort of like pressure cookeror friendship was in Yeah.
When we were young because wespent so much time together Yeah.

(54:06):
Over those years.
And I just, I had so much love foryou and I always felt like you were
so cool and I just wanted to bearound you, like you're just a person.
I wanna be around.
And I guess I just always like,oh, she's gonna come around.
It's okay.
Like, we're living separately,like we're busy and stuff.
Yeah.
And I think, I don't know, likewhen I care, I, I care a lot

(54:30):
about my friends and my family.
Yeah.
And if, if I care about somebody, I'mnot just gonna be like, ah, screw you.
Then like once I'm in, I'm in.
Yeah.

Heather (54:40):
Got

Paige (54:40):
to

Heather (54:40):
a Got to a point though.

Paige (54:42):
Got got to a point.
But it's funny because the hardestpart of our friendship was not when you
were in your worst part of addiction.

Heather (54:49):
Mm-hmm.

Paige (54:50):
Not by a mile.
Really?
Yeah.
Like I feel like the hardest partwas that part there where I felt
like rejected and like, oh, okay.
Like to me your worst part of addiction.
I guess I would mean likeright before you got sober.
Okay.
Yeah.
And we were actually very,very close through that.
Yeah.

Heather (55:04):
Yeah.
Thank God.
Which is so

Paige (55:05):
interesting.
'cause you would think if therewas ever a time when I was like,
I'm cutting you off, it would'vebeen when you were being a mania.
I

Heather (55:13):
I was waiting for you to,
sorry.
Um, I was waiting for you whenyou were pregnant to tell me that.
Like, I can't be aroundhim or when he was born.
And I, that was like a huge thing for me.
When you got pregnant, when yougot engaged, we'll, we'll go back.

(55:35):
But when you got pregnant, I was like.
Oh, okay.
This is fucking huge.
Like this is a real thing that'shappening that's outside of me
and like, I like how am I going tosurvive if like my best friend, like
won't let me see her baby, you know?
Yeah.
And at that point I was alreadyso sad about you and like all
this stuff, but like, that's fine.

(55:57):
Like, I saw him, he's the best.
But um, I was very worried.
I was waiting for you to cutme off and like, I guess we
kind of cut each other off.
But
you got engaged.

Paige (56:09):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (56:10):
And you'd been dating Bren?
Oh, sorry.
No, you can say that.
Okay, that's fine.
Um, you got engaged and you'd beendating Bren for how many years?

Paige (56:18):
We were dating for like a year when we got engaged.
Only a year.
A year and a couple months.
Oh my God.
We got engaged and then we wenthouse shopping two days later.

Heather (56:27):
And how's it going now?

Paige (56:29):
He's still around.

Heather (56:30):
He's still around.

Paige (56:31):
I cannot get rid of this man.
Wow.
He's pretty great.
He's, I

Heather (56:35):
love him.
Yeah.

Paige (56:35):
He is a really wonderful person.
He

Heather (56:37):
could probably, do you think he could pick us both up?
Oh, yeah, totally.
Oh, I was gonna text youyesterday if you trained for it.
Do you think you could lift him likeOh, from the ground, like overhead?

Paige (56:48):
No,

Heather (56:49):
I

Paige (56:49):
could lift him

Heather (56:49):
from

Paige (56:50):
the ground

Heather (56:50):
right now.
You can.
Yes.
You're so strong.
He's not a big fatty.
He's just like a big He's a strong man.

Paige (56:57):
Yes.
Is that what he's considered?
He's muscularly dense.

Heather (57:00):
Yeah.
He competes in strong man.
Competes in strong.
He's a strong man.

Paige (57:03):
He is a strong man.
That's what

Heather (57:04):
they call, and a banker, which I think is so funny.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Under his, under his button up.
It's just like a Yeah, it's very

Paige (57:11):
Superman.
Clark Kent.

Heather (57:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh God.
So cool.
Um, I, uh, you got engaged to Brentand I didn't know anything about him.
I'd never met him.
And I think there was a moment where Ikind of felt slighted by that in a way.
Like probably not.
Mm-hmm.
But like in the way of like, Ifucked this up and now like now

(57:34):
my best friend is like engaged.
I don't know.

Paige (57:37):
Yeah.

Heather (57:38):
But I called you

Paige (57:39):
Yeah.

Heather (57:40):
From my bed in the morning and I saw that you had got
engaged and I was freaking out.
I was so happy.
I was like, oh my god, Paigeand Cage is this crazy.
And I called you and I'll just saymy perspective of what happened.
The way you answered thephone broke my heart.
'cause 'cause it was like, it was like youwere answering the phone to like a ghost.

(58:08):
Like you were like, hello?
And I was like, oh my God, you're engaged.
Congratulations.
And you were like, oh yeah, thanks.
And when we got off the phone I was like.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
We don't know each other.
We're not friends.
Like, she fucking hates me.
Like, I'm not in her life.
I'm an idiot.
Why would I even call her?
Like, I just was like, duh,I've been sitting here drinking

(58:29):
in my bed for fucking years.
Like, yeah.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Do you remember that phone call?

Paige (58:33):
Yeah, I do remember that phone call.
And I remember it was kind ofweird because there's a thing
that happens sometimes whenbig things happen in your life.
This may have happened to youeven like with like releasing
the podcast and stuff mm-hmm.
Where like people comeout of the woodwork.
Yeah.
And it's like, now you're here allof a sudden, like, what do you mean?
What are you talking about?
Yeah.
And I feel like I was just a little bitcautious when I got that phone call.
Yeah.
Because I was like, oh, now thatI'm getting married, like you

(58:55):
just wanna come to the party

Heather (58:57):
After I got off the phone with you.
That's what I felt.
I was like, oh my God.
She, she's gonna think I called herjust so I could come to the wedding.
I, I knew that that'show you were gonna feel.
Mm-hmm.
Because up until that point, that's kindof what I'd been doing with everybody.
Like yeah.
I would only call them if I neededthem or if I was using them for
something and not maliciously.
It's just all I had capacityfor because I was so fucked up.

(59:19):
But yeah, that phone call sucked.
And then did I call you again?
I called you again andyou were in the car?

Paige (59:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You must have called me again.
'cause then we had a conversation.

Heather (59:33):
Mm-hmm.

Paige (59:34):
And you apologized to me.

Heather (59:36):
Yeah.

Paige (59:36):
And you asked me did I tell you what was going on
to go for coffee with you?
No, I don't think so.
Okay.
I think you just werelike, I'm really sorry.
Like, yeah.
I haven't been there.
Like we haven't really talked.
I wanna explain myself like,can we please go get coffee?
I'm gonna be in town.
And I was kind of like,I mean, yeah, sure.

(59:58):
And that made me feel a little bit better.
But it was when we sat down andwe had coffee and you really
sincerely apologized and you cried.
And I'm pretty sure I cried.
Yeah.
And I was like, okay,this feels really genuine.
Mm-hmm.
And like.
This is someone, this is like mybest friend I wanna have in my life.

(01:00:18):
Mm-hmm.
And I just decided to belike, okay, that's fine.
But I remember saying to you like,you do that to me again, I'm done.
Yeah.
I re Yeah.
It's like, you're not doing that again.
Yeah.
Like, if you're gonna behere, you're gonna be here.

Heather (01:00:29):
I remember that ultimatum.
And I was like, or ultimatum or whatever.
I remember you being like,okay, but I'm not you.
If you said something like, I'mgonna have, there's, it's gonna
take time for me to trust you again.
Mm-hmm.
And I, for some reason Iwas like, yeah, I, I know.
And I, I, but I wanted more thananything, like anything else I wanted

(01:00:50):
to be in your life, like in that moment.
And still, I was like, okay, hold on.
I'm doing all this bullshit, butlike, I will, I will show up.
I'll be there.
Mm-hmm.
And then

Paige (01:01:03):
well, no, then we were okay.
We were great.
You came to my wedding.
You came to my bridal shower.
You came to my wedding.
Did you know anything wasup with me at that point?
Not really.
Okay.
I mean,

Heather (01:01:13):
because I was thin, I was small.
Yeah.
And you were

Paige (01:01:15):
like happy in your new relationship.
And he came to the wedding and I gotto meet him and he was delightful.
Yeah.
And you guys were having so much funand dancing and like, I just felt
like, I was like, okay, this is great.
Mm-hmm.
And then I think it wasn't untilafter that when I started to be
like, because I was FaceTiming

Heather (01:01:34):
you.

Paige (01:01:34):
Well, yeah.
We were FaceTiming a lot and we will, wewill talk for hours at a time on FaceTime.

Heather (01:01:40):
Mm-hmm.

Paige (01:01:41):
And you were always drinking when you FaceTimed me.
And then it was like, not only werelike, I'm like, okay, whatever.
You're having a glassof wine, like big deal.
But then it was like you're always.
Drunk, slurring your words when youFaceTime me or crying or mm-hmm.
Really kind of animated and like, yeah.
Almost manic high.

(01:02:01):
Hi, Lola.
You know, like, you're crying oryou're in a really, really phenomenal
mood and you're slurring your words.
And I was kind of like,yeah, what is this?
You know, because no one was seeinganybody COVID and stuff, and you
were stuck in your condo, and I wasstuck in my house with my husband.
Like, it's hard to clock how badit is until I came to see you.

(01:02:22):
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Heather (01:02:25):
But that wa Oh, that was after the wedding?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You came to see me.
I don't wanna do this part.
We don't have to.
No, we have to.
We have to.
I hate it, but it's okay.
You should.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.

Paige (01:02:38):
Because I, I don't wanna hurt your feelings.
My, and I don't want it to be

Heather (01:02:40):
like Paige just shitting on No, no.
I, I, you know, you know what?
I actually think it's reallyimportant to hear this perspective
from like, the addict's friend,a family member, you know?
Yeah.
Not seeing me, seeing me.
The, it, there's a whole other world.
Like I can sit here with Zoe andtalk about, I can sit here with you
and talk about eating disorders.

Paige (01:02:59):
Mm-hmm.

Heather (01:02:59):
But I can sit here with Zoe and talk about all the shit I did, how
bad I was doing what I was feeling.
But I think a lot of times we miss theperspective of the people around us
who love us, who are just essentiallygetting kicked to the fucking
curb and don't know why, you know?
Yeah.
So, do you wanna tell everyone whathappened when you came to see me?

(01:03:22):
Which time?
Oh God.
Okay.

Paige (01:03:27):
Because I came to see you.
Post breakup.
Yeah.
It was quite a bit post breakup.
Yeah.
And

Heather (01:03:33):
then my friend came over and we went out.
Right.

Paige (01:03:35):
Yeah.
We went out.
We had a great time.
It all seemed like really fun.

Heather (01:03:39):
Mm-hmm.

Paige (01:03:40):
I think we kissed.
Oh, probably.
I mean, if I had a nickel,we went to the drag show.
If I had a nickel, um, wedid go to the drag show.
That was really fun.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so yeah, so that time I cameand it, it just seemed like a
fun, like Girls' weekend, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like we had like Prosecco at lunch and Ithought that was like, oh my god, so fun.

(01:04:01):
That was such a fun, but inhindsight, I'm like, was Heather
just doing this all the time?
Like we split a bottleof Prosecco at lunch.
I was like, oh my God, how fun andcool and sex in the city of us.
Yeah.
Like, I was like, ohmy God, this is great.
Like, not to be a total nerd,but just there's nowhere to

Heather (01:04:14):
do that where I'm from.
That's been No, but listen,that's been my whole thing.
I, we, Paige and I grewup on Sex in the City.
We would sit in her mom'sback room and watch.
All of it.
And the DVD version that was like,which is not censored, it's porn.
And I was so horny all the time,sitting beside you watching
Sex in the City at like 12.
But that's always what I wanted.
I wanted to have a, to have friends thatI could go and have a glass of wine with.

(01:04:37):
Yeah.
So it's,

Paige (01:04:37):
it was like that.

Heather (01:04:39):
Yeah.
It was so

Paige (01:04:39):
fun.
Yeah.
It seems just like really cooland really chic and whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And we did that and like gallivantaround the city and whatever.
And then, yeah, we got ready and wewent out and it was a really fun time.
But I do remember noticing when I arrivedat your condo, I was like, and I, I yelled
at you a couple of times when I was there.

(01:04:59):
Oh, my

Heather (01:05:00):
dryer,

Paige (01:05:00):
because.
Okay.
Mm. I walk into this apartmentand I pretty quickly noticed.
I was like, Kate, it'sreally messy in here.
Which, whatever.
Not everyone's a cleanfreak and that's fine.
I had

Heather (01:05:13):
probably spent 48 hours cleaning,

Paige (01:05:14):
but it looked like you hadn't cleaned before I came over and I
remember thinking, who the fuck doesn'tclean up before they have guests?
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And I was like, gr AndI mean, it's just me.
So it's not like I'm expecting like,you know, some sort of regal treatment.
But I was like, come on,Heather, clean your place.
But I'm like, what ifs?
And then it was little things Istarted to pick up on the dryer

(01:05:35):
was kind of hilarious, but I can't,I can't express to you enough how
much of a fire hazard this was.
I know I had to like washunderwear or something like that.
'cause of course I didn't pack enough.
And so I did a small load of laundryand I went to put it in the dryer.
Another's lint dryer was like inthe back of the dryer because it

(01:05:55):
was like one of those little ones,and it was just bursting at the
seams like it was all coming out.
I swear to God, you must havenever cleaned that the entire
time you had lived there for thelast like two years or whatever.
And I looked at it and I openedit and I started pulling up this
massive chunk of like lint and stuff.
And I just remember yelling.
I was like, Heather, what thefuck are you trying to burn
down the whole condo building?

(01:06:16):
Yeah, I know.
And in that moment I was like, I'm my mom.
Um, that's true.
But I was like, that is sucha, and she's like, oh, ha ha.
And I was like, I was like,you can't, that's insane.
Mm-hmm.
Has no one taught you how to do laundry.
And then there were other little thingsI picked up on where like, I went to pick
something up off the floor and I noticedthere were wine bottles under the bed.
Yeah.
And like, it was little stuff likethat where I was like, this is weird.

(01:06:38):
Mm-hmm.
But she's going throughsomething right now.
She went through a rough breakup.
You know, Heather's nota neat freak, whatever.
And I think I kind oflike chalked it up too.
Not a huge deal.
Yeah.
And then it was the next timethat I came and I was pregnant.

Heather (01:06:52):
Yeah.
So that would've been like ayear later probably, right?

Paige (01:06:55):
Yeah, probably.
And I was like, I was there, we celebratedlike our birthdays, we went to the
Four Seasons, we did a whole spa thing.
Like we had a really nice time.
But what I noticed was when we weren'tat the Four Seasons and at the spa,
you did not wanna leave the condo.
And I was like, I didn't come all theway to Toronto to sit on your couch.

(01:07:15):
I know.
Like I never get out of my small town.
Like I never go anywhere.
I was like, let's go do something.
Like let's go have lunch, like whatever.
And you just like wanted to order inand you didn't really wanna leave.
Mm-hmm.
And the place was messier and I obviouslywasn't drinking because I was pregnant.
Mm-hmm.
And you were like getting a bottle ofwine just for you, which I really didn't

(01:07:36):
care if people wanted to drink around mewhen I couldn't because I was pregnant.
I'm like, whatever.
But I was like.
Like even at the Four Seasons,you like got a bottle of Rose
sent, like it was like every day.
Yeah,

Heather (01:07:49):
I know.
I was waiting for for you tosay something I didn't want

Paige (01:07:51):
you to, but I was like,

Heather (01:07:52):
oh God,

Paige (01:07:53):
I didn't, I didn't wanna say anything because I really
think like, obviously you knowthat I know I'm sitting right here.
You know what I'm seeing and if youwanna talk about it, and I don't
know if this is correct, but my ideaaround like changing behaviors mm-hmm.
Is you have to wanna do it.
And maybe some of that is becauseI'm like a strength coach and
a nutrition coach and stuff.

(01:08:14):
Yeah.
And just what I know aboutbehavior change and what I've
seen working with my clients.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's probably even moreso with addiction and stuff, no one is
gonna be able to make you do anything.

Heather (01:08:28):
Yeah.

Paige (01:08:28):
I can't make anybody change their behavior unless that's
something that they wanna change.
And I think a lot of the time, likein my line of business, people wanna
throw money at the problem and like.
Hire a coach or something andhope the problem goes away.
Yeah.
And I'm very adamant to people thatlike, I am more than happy to support
you, but I can't do the work for you.
Right, right.
And I think that that was just kindof how I felt in that situation.

(01:08:51):
And I think also I was pregnant and goingthrough this huge life change and I was
like, I can't take on Heather's addiction.
Yeah.
All I could do was like, be there for youwhen you would like call me and be like,
I need to find a way to stop drinking.
Mm-hmm.
When you would text me, I need to getsober and then delete the text message.
But I already saw it.
Yeah.

(01:09:11):
That I, that happened a few.

Heather (01:09:14):
Did it happen twice?
Maybe

Paige (01:09:15):
there was one time that you said, I need to get sober.
Yeah.
And then the next day you textedme again when I saw it in the
morning and you said, I'm actuallynot ready to talk about that yet.
Mm. So I left it.
Yeah.
Um, and then there's another timewhen you sent it and you unsent it.
But I'd already read itbefore you unsent it.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Heather (01:09:35):
I knew that.
And you, you were like, I saw that

Paige (01:09:37):
and I, yeah.
Just kidding.
I didn't know.
And you were also like talking aboutdoing like hypnotherapy for addiction.
I did.
So there were things that you weredoing that was in your way telling
me that you needed to get sober.
And I just remember telling you, listen,it's okay if you're not ready, but when
you are ready we can talk about it.
But I wasn't gonna make you talk about it.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:09:59):
Damn.
And then you reallycame to it on your own.

Heather (01:10:02):
Well, I mean, eventually I'm like, I'm gonna die.
Yeah.
And I'm not gonna be able to seeyour baby and like all this shit.
But I, that was rough.
That whole trip was rough.
'cause I was like in such badwithdrawal the whole time.
And that was me drinking light by the way.
Like when you came for the bump party?

(01:10:23):
No, no, no.
When you came to see me.
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
That was me drinking light.
'cause I was drinking three to fourbottles of wine a day at that point.
And I having one bottle of winewaiting till the end of the day.
I was miserable.
Pete.
Yeah.
I was fucking, I was not.
I was so nauseous.
I was mad.
I was mad at you.
Like I was just Well, I could tell.
Yeah, because you didn'twanna do anything.

(01:10:44):
I didn't wanna do anything.
I didn't wanna go outside.
I also was so fat.
So I was like, I'm not going outside.
And I, and whatever that feeling is toanybody, like, to me being a in a bigger
body is like the worst thing for me.
Yeah.
Or it was, yeah.
It was the worst thing for me.
And I didn't wanna go outside.
I didn't wanna do anything.
I didn't have any clothes that fit.

(01:11:05):
I just wore that one acne oversizedt-shirt dress the whole time.
Oh yeah.

Paige (01:11:09):
I love that T-shirt dress.

Heather (01:11:10):
I know.
I like it too.
Um, and then it was your.
Bump New Year's party.
Yeah, the bump party.
And I don't know what the fuck compelledme to go, I think because I was
like, oh, I have to be in her life.
Yeah.
And like this is the baby, so I haveto be there for like the big moment.

Paige (01:11:28):
Yeah.
I wanted you to go.
I was happy you came.
Yeah.
And then I was like, what the fuck?
Like I showed up drunk.
It was kind of a jump scare a little bit.
Well, 'cause Brendan came andpicked you up from the train.
Yeah.
And I remember when he, I don't know ifI ever told you this, but when he came
home and like you went downstairs to theguest room and were like getting all set
up, he looked at me and he's like, Heathersmelled like wine when I picked her up.

(01:11:50):
Oh yeah.
I was drinking like he waslike, and obviously like.
He knows you and would often be likejoining our FaceTime conversations.
Mm-hmm.
And stuff.
So he was pretty aware of howmuch you were drinking too?
Yeah.
So he kind of had tabs on it, buthe was like, she smelled like, and
it was like 11:00 AM or something.
Yeah.
It was early.
And I was like, okay.
And I could tell when I hadvisited you that time previous

(01:12:15):
you had gained some weight.
Like, fine, who cares?
I don't.
I don't care.
Like if you weigh fourpounds or 400 pounds.
Mm-hmm.
Like I really don't care.
Whatever.
If you're happy and you're takingcare of yourself, that's fantastic.
But I noticed when you camethen in January for that party,
I was like, what is going on?
Because you showed up and you were muchbigger than I'd ever seen you in such

(01:12:39):
and like it had happened quite rapidly.
Yeah.
Right.
Which isn't healthy weight gain.
Mm-hmm.
And I know you and I know howyou feel good in your body.
And I was like, thatain't it, like at all.
And so that was kind of like.
Okay.
And you just, you didn't look likeyou were taking care of yourself.
Yeah.
You didn't look like you werewashing your hair regularly.

(01:13:01):
You didn't.
And I really like, I don't saythat's to make you feel gross
or hurt, hurt your feelings.
It's, but it was like you, you'vealways been someone who, like,
if you're going somewhere, you'regonna like, do your hair, like put
on like a little bit of mascara.
Mm-hmm.
Or like a blush and just like, youalways present yourself a certain way.
You're like a very put together personand you showed up and you were a disaster.
Yeah.
And I was like,

Heather (01:13:22):
I don't think I knew I was a disaster.

Paige (01:13:24):
I was like, what is going on?
Because that's when I waslike, you're not taking care of
like your basic needs clearly.
And I was like, that's when Iwas worried for your health.
Like before I was like, you'redrinking too much and that's not good.
Yeah.
That was when I was like,oh my God, you're gonna die.
Yeah.

(01:13:45):
If you don't get better.
Yeah, for sure.
I started getting to a point where I waslike, you can't do this and make it to 45.

Heather (01:13:51):
Yeah.

Paige (01:13:52):
Right.
Or if you do by some miracle, like you'renot gonna be in good health and stuff.
And I just was like, that's when Iwas like, the train is off the tracks.

Heather (01:14:01):
Yeah.

Paige (01:14:02):
And I was worried and I was worried about having a baby and then I was like,
am I gonna let Heather come hold my baby?
Hammered.

Heather (01:14:10):
You didn't think about that?

Paige (01:14:11):
Yeah, for sure.
But it wasn't like, I definitelywasn't thinking, oh, I'm
gonna have to cut her off.
Okay.
That was never a thing because I, Ithink I had enough compassion and enough
understanding of addiction to be like,there's something really wrong here
and you're dealing with something.
Okay.
So you knew I had an addiction For sure.
I'd known that for like along time at that point.
Yeah.
I'd say probably a couple of years.

(01:14:32):
At that point I was like, oh,like this is an addiction issue.
Mm-hmm.
So I was never gonna not be therefor you, but at the same time.
I don't want a drunkperson around my baby.
No.
So it's not like I wasn't gonna seeyou or be there for you or support
you, but I knew that there wasgonna have to be a conversation at
some point if you didn't get sober.
I did not wanna have thatconversation where if you were

(01:14:53):
gonna be like, I wanna come see you.
And I talked to my husband about that.
I was like, what am I gonna do?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I can't have someoneactively hammered around my baby.
Like that's not like ahealthy, safe environment.
Yeah.
You know?
No.
And so I was so happy when, veryshortly after I had him mm-hmm.
You called me and you're like,I'm gonna rehab next week.

(01:15:15):
And I was like, fuck yeah.
Yeah.
Was so good.
I was so proud of you.
And I thought that was so amazing.
Mm-hmm.
And just the way you committed yourselfto that, like, now I'm gonna cry, like,
I'm so grateful because when I saw youthen after that and you were sober,
I was like, I got my friend back.

(01:15:37):
Because like I didn't knowwho you were for so long.
I still loved you, but I was like, likewhen you walked through my doors that
one day I was like, who is this person?
And then it was like, I got my friendback and I was so grateful and I'm
like, oh my God, she's gonna be okay.
And like I can sit down and I just feltlike we could be us when we were 12.

(01:15:59):
Yeah.
That's really how I felt.
And I was like, thank God for that.
And it was just, fuck that.
That was huge for me.
Yeah.
And huge for you.
And I'm like honestly so proud of you.
Like what a cool, amazing,very hard thing you've done.

Heather (01:16:18):
No, I didn't actually realize like how much that affected
you and like how happy you werewhen I got sober until right now.
Like I knew you were obviously, but likeYeah, it really, my life like stopped.
You were a huge catalystfor me to get sober.
Just 'cause your life wasmoving and you were happy.
And I was like watching a happy persongo on with their life without me.

(01:16:42):
And,
and then like, looking aroundand being like, it's not even
just her, it's everybody.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
But with you, there's like alwaysbeen something where I'm like, I,
I can't like, let this friendshipgo and I never wanted to.
I just was like, Ididn't have the capacity.

(01:17:03):
I couldn't do anything, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And I'm so grateful that you like, gave mea chance and that you like stuck with me.
'cause fuck man.
You totally could have just beenlike, honestly, this is too much.
We like grew apart, whatever.
But it's like really speaks toyour character and our friendship.

(01:17:24):
Yeah.
And all that fucking trauma andeverything you know about me.

Paige (01:17:28):
And to your character, to your credit, because again,
I don't want this whole podcastepisode to be like, Heather sucks.
Like, I did kind, I did suck.
I mean, we all do sometimes.
Yeah.
Like I, like I said, like I've donethings that I was not proud of when I was
in like bad places where I was drinkingtoo much or I was very depressed, or I
was in my, or I was anxious, whatever.

(01:17:49):
Like, we've all done things and wehave to be able to let go of that.
Mm-hmm.
Or we truly, like, wetruly cannot move forward.
You can't do anything else good.
Mm-hmm.
And feel truly good about ituntil you let go of that stuff.
Yeah.
So I don't want you beatingyourself up over things.
Like, even like every time itcomes up you'll say, I'm sorry.
And I'm like, for what?

(01:18:09):
I know, like, like it's so done.
It's like beyond water, underthe bridge at this point for me.
And like it's, it's notkeeping me up at night.
I would hate for it tokeep you up at night.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
And like my original point being.
You are a very good person.
You're a very good friend.
Like I said, you are the person who, youwalk into a room and people pay attention.

(01:18:31):
And I think that is like justthis beautiful quality to have.
And like you're funny andyou're ridiculous and you're
completely unfiltered.
And sometimes you say stuff and I'mlike, good god, Heather, not the time.
But I love that about you andthat's why I am still here.

(01:18:51):
And that's why I wanted to be therefor you through all of this stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Because I have so much love foryou and you have in a lot of ways
been a really good friend to me.
And when it really counted, you showed up.
And for you to be the type of person whocan take accountability and say, these are

(01:19:12):
moments I'm not proud of and here's howI'm gonna make it better, is like so huge.
I think that's all we can ask.
Mm-hmm.
People in our lives.
Yeah.
Because people are gonna mess upand they're gonna hurt our feelings
and they're going to mistreat us.
Mm-hmm.
But if.
They can honestly say, this was my bad.

Heather (01:19:28):
Yeah.

Paige (01:19:28):
I'm gonna change this moving forward.
And if you can both keep love throughthat, I'm like, yeah, that's it.
You know, like you're a reallyincredible person for being able to do
all that, and I'm just very gratefulthat you got your shit together.
Right.
And you didn't die on me.

Heather (01:19:47):
That was coming.
Yeah.
That was fucking coming.
Damn.
I love you so much.
I love you.
Do you have any, I mean, you touched on ita little bit, but do you have any advice
for anyone that's in your position thathas a friend who's really fucking addicted
to something or you think they are?
Mm-hmm.

Paige (01:20:05):
I mean, I am far from a professional on this, so I don't know
what I'm talking about, but speakingfrom my own experiences mm-hmm.
I think all you can do is continueto let someone know mm-hmm.
That you are there for them.
And I mean, I know insome situations when.
You have someone in your life who's anaddict, maybe you can't stay too close

(01:20:27):
to that person 'cause it's not healthy.

Heather (01:20:29):
Yeah.

Paige (01:20:29):
For you, yourself.
And I think that is also very valid.
Totally.
But I think if you make sure that theperson you love knows that, should they
find themselves ready, you will be thereand you will not pass judgment on them,
and you are willing to forgive them andsupport them through getting better.
That's all you can really do.

(01:20:50):
Yeah.
Because at the end of the day,they have to make that decision.
And when they do, they'rereally gonna need the support.

Heather (01:20:58):
Yeah.
That's good advice because youwere, you were there the whole
time I was texting you from rehab.
I was telling you what's going on.
Oh yeah.
I was getting all the tea, all the tea.
Well, do you wanna plug your business?

Paige (01:21:13):
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
Oh my God.
Cool.
Um, yeah, we didn't reallyfully talk about that.
So I'm a strength coachand a nutrition coach.
Um, how do you think about this?
That's pretty good.
How you think?
You got some bicep popping out there.
See my arms, Pilates armshaking when I travel.
We'll work on that.
Thank you so much.
Um, yeah, so I'm a, a strengthcoach and a nutrition coach.

(01:21:35):
So my focus is mostlyon strength training.
Um, I do have a powerliftingteam that I, uh, coach within the
Ontario Power Lifting Associationand the IPF, which is really cool.
Mm-hmm.
And I compete on myself, so for peoplewho are into power lifting are interested
in getting into it, that's an option.
But I deal with a lot of people who justwanna be strong and fit and healthy.

(01:21:56):
Mm-hmm.
And that is, what's it called?
A great thing to wanna be, uh, if you,uh, pagewood training and nutrition.
So I'm on Instagram at pager kw.
We'll link it.
Yeah.
And, uh, because you doonline stuff too, right?
Yes.
Mostly online stuff.
So I do, I do some in-person training, butfor the most part, I do online programming
for, uh, nutrition and strength training.

(01:22:19):
Perfect.
And my powerlifting teamis wood powerlifting co. So

Heather (01:22:24):
Cool.

Paige (01:22:24):
Get that up too.

Heather (01:22:25):
Yeah.

Paige (01:22:25):
So good.

Heather (01:22:26):
Um, next time I come back here, which I think is October,
we'll do an episode about transferaddiction into the fitness community.
Because I have so many question,I, so many, many questions.
Yes.

Paige (01:22:37):
Brendan and I were just talking about this.
Yeah.
Because I feel like so many people

Heather (01:22:40):
get into fitness through addiction recovery or like depression
or eating disorders and shit.
Uhhuh.

Paige (01:22:47):
So that'll be very, very interesting.
Well, p your first podcast,

Heather (01:22:51):
you fucking crushed it.

Paige (01:22:52):
Thanks, Liz.
Love you.
Thank you for coming.
I like, I'm so thanks for having me.
I was so

Heather (01:22:56):
scared.
I mean it scary.
I'm so proud of you.

Paige (01:22:58):
I'm so proud of you.

Heather (01:23:00):
I'm proud of you guys.

Paige (01:23:01):
Proud of you.

Heather (01:23:02):
Bye.
Thanks for listening to Girl Un Drunk.
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTokat Girl Un Drunk Podcast and or send
me an email at heather@girlundrunk.com.

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