How to Protect Yourself as a Health Professional With Darrell Rogers

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Our conversation today is super important for you.
We're chatting with Daryl Rogers from the Council of Holistic Health Educators.
The Council of Holistic Health Educators protects and promotes holistic health professionals like us.
They defeat legislation that restricts our community, and they lobby to pass
laws protecting and growing our diverse professions' ability to practice.

(00:20):
They educate policymakers, build grassroots support, and train holistic health
practitioners to become involved in the policy process and win.
This is an important conversation. Bookmark this one to listen to a few times
and bookmark holisticcouncil.org too, so you can critically stay on top of the
legislation threatening and supporting health coaches.

(00:43):
Hi, I'm Erin Power. And I'm Laura Rupsis. We're certified health coaches,
and this is Health Coach Radio.
This podcast is about the art, science, and business of health coaching.
We share our insider tips to help you become a better coach and entrepreneur.
And we interview expert guests to discover how they've made it in this growing field.

(01:04):
It's time for health coaches to make an impact. It's time for Health Coach Radio.
All right, Daryl Rogers, thank you so much for joining us today.
We're excited to have this conversation. Lots to talk about.
There is. Thank you so much for having me. So I don't want to spoil your own little intro.
So Erin and I like you to just sort of introduce yourself and sort of who you

(01:28):
are and why you're here, but I will just little spoiler alert.
So you are now essentially running the holistic council or the council for holistic
health educators. So I'll let you explain what it is you guys do,
but Primal Health Coach has been a supporter of your organization for years.
I'm actually on the board, which is, you know, disclosure. And so there's so

(01:50):
much that's changed, but if you wouldn't mind, give everybody your background,
kind of how you sort of entered this health coaching realm and how you ended
up taken over running up the council.
Will do. Thank you so much for having me, Aaron and Laura.
And a big thanks to Primal Health Coach for being a big supporter of the Council

(02:11):
of Holistic Health Educators and all of our supporters.
You can go to holisticcouncil.org and we recommend everybody do that to check
out our outstanding website, the content that we have and our supporting schools and programs.
I have been involved in politics and policy for over 20 years.
I came to D.C. in August of 2001 and caught what they call Potomac fever and stayed.

(02:41):
I've worked on Capitol Hill. I've worked for large nonprofit organizations,
small nonprofit organizations, those much despised K Street lobbying firms,
but then found my way to a really interesting organization.
We handled a lot of natural products issues with the FTC and FDA.

(03:02):
And I wound up working with a number of different integrative physicians at this trade group.
And it was there I started researching, writing about, and really getting interested
in the policy of nutrition practice And just kind of fascinated that it's different in every state.
It was changing. This is around the time of the Affordable Care Act.

(03:26):
So there was a lot of conversation about wellness programs and preventative
care. So it just found it just a fascinating place.
And I was writing about the policies and changes and got in touch with Joshua
Rosenthal, who had started, I was the founder and CEO of Integrative Nutrition.

(03:49):
And we just kind of developed a rapport.
And then he asked if I wanted to join him at Integrative Nutrition and be their
director of advocacy and policy.
And I was there for nine years directing the company's practitioner education.
Practitioner understandings of policies and regulations, but also doing a whole

(04:13):
lot of work in Washington, D.C.
For IIN, but also the broader health coach community, raising the profile and
recognition of our health coaches.
So I was there until the end of 2022.
And that's when Jonathan Posey,
the former director of the Holistic Council or the Council of Holistic Health
Educators, moved on and just thought it was a pretty good fit that I pick up

(04:39):
the reins and run with the organization because it does some really valuable work for our community.
Wow. Okay. Sounds like a pretty perfect fit. it
um interesting like it's so
i'm so excited that you come from this policy politics background
because um and i don't know if anybody else listening is excited about that
too but i think that's who we need that's the kind of person we need uh the

(05:02):
the pragmatic sort of approach to understanding and advocating uh for us um
in dc one thing that really strikes me as this struck
me as being frustrating actually and unusual when the way you said it was um
the policy of nutrition practice is different in every state which yeah we know
that we totally know that we're going to talk about that a lot today but when

(05:26):
i zoom out it's so interesting because the
principles of nutrition are so so generally like known but the way it's distributed
is is political you know the way that that consumers can access it is is uh
throttled or facilitated by policy.
And I always feel for the health consumer, how confusing it is for them.

(05:47):
Do you have any thoughts on that? How the health consumer ends up being sort
of swept under the rug and often fighting?
It's a really great point because we often see it as quite simple, right?
If we kind of choose to eat these things, we kind of keep a food journal, we understand.

(06:09):
Macro, micronutrients, and we can kind of navigate through coaching,
nutrition, maybe online tools, like a pretty healthy way of going about the world.
But then you realize that, you know, this food environment is a trillion dollar industry.
It is trying to be manipulated, sold, packaged, cost reductions the entire way through.

(06:34):
And that, you know, large food and agribusiness and pharmaceutical industry
have a whole lot at stake.
Um, and so, you know, when there's that much influence and that much money behind,
uh, something that, you know, we view both probably as a, as a right,

(06:56):
you know, to be, to be healthy and have access to, to healthy foods.
Um, but also something that doesn't seem to be that confusing for us. Yes.
It's incredibly overwhelming and confusing for the vast majority of people.
I mean, just think about the varying in nutrition advice that we've just gotten
over the past few years about what an individual should be doing.

(07:17):
And then you put on top of that the amount of influence between professional
associations and medical associations.
Applications, and on top of the agribusiness,
the food companies, and then the pharmaceutical companies, it becomes quite
a challenging world to navigate as a consumer, a practitioner,

(07:38):
and then also as an advocate, too, for our world.
So thank you for identifying that we need at least one person like me doing
it because it is daunting. Thank you.
Well, and I think we need to, the more the end consumer is educated,
the more they begin to stand up for themselves and start to demand better,
you know, case in point, I'm just going to plug our, the founder of the Primal

(08:03):
Health Coach Institute is also the founder of Primal Kitchen.
And he launched a product into the marketplace because there was a gap,
which was healthy condiments, right?
If you go to the supermarket and you take a look at all the different condiments
that people put on their food, the vast majority of them are made with trashy
ingredients, way too much sugar and really crappy fats.
And so his first product was a mayonnaise that was made with a health,

(08:25):
I mean, long story short, that product and what he put to market became in such
demand that eventually quote, unquote, big food bottom, right?
Kraft Heinz bottom. And there was this huge, to a certain degree,
a bit of a backlash to Mark that he sold out to the man and to big,
but he was like, no, no, no, you don't understand the fact Back to the matter,

(08:46):
this is a good thing for the end consumer,
that big food is paying attention and they are acquiring brands that actually
are meeting the demand of the end consumer. Big food is listening.
And quite frankly, it created a wider distribution. In the past,
the only people that could buy that mayonnaise had to shell out whatever it

(09:08):
was, $12, and you either needed to buy direct and pay shipping or go to Whole
Foods. No, it's in Walmart.
Okay. Prices are lower, all of this stuff. So the consumer matters and the consumer has power.
And the same thing holds true in terms of where they choose to provide,
to get support and advice in terms of their own health, whether they want to

(09:31):
seek a health coach or a dietitian.
So I would love, or a nutritionist or whatever, whatever's in the mind of the
consumer that they think they need.
I would love for you to speak to why we even need an advocate for our own ability to practice?
Like what are the, I mean, we touched on it a little bit, but could you speak
a little bit as to kind of what, what the vulnerabilities are and why we need advocacy?

(09:54):
The American Dietetic Association has been around probably since the 1930s or 40s.
They're dietitians and historically have worked in places like hospitals and
prisons and institutional settings.
And at some point, they decided in the 70s and 80s to be more of a health care

(10:21):
provider and not just a food provider.
And they drafted bills that were introduced in a variety of different states.
Stating that the practice of dietetics is something that if a lay person gets
involved in, it could be dangerous for the public, and therefore,

(10:42):
there needs to be government regulation.
And interestingly enough, I went through the, I did a good amount of research
in this and found the first article about it from 1978.
It was in the Washington Post, and the Washington Post had questions about,
essentially, why are you doing this?
And it's funny, here we are in 2023 asking the same questions.

(11:06):
So there was a real effort in the 70s and 80s to pass this type of regulation.
One, it benefited their profession and their membership.
Many organizations and associations associations engage in this kind of behavior
because it benefits their paid membership, but also they create an entire kind of ecosystem.

(11:28):
So you go to their schools, you see their professors, you take their degrees,
you take their examinations, you do your 1,000 hours of unpaid internship.
And so they have a whole ecosystem that they need to support.
And one of the best ways of supporting that ecosystem is mandating that only
a few can do it and many cannot, and it's going to be costly and you have to

(11:52):
go through their processes.
These laws were passed in about 25 or 26, in varying ways to determine whether
they're there or not, about 25 or 26 different states.
So essentially, the practice of nutrition and dietetics was a regulated act,
and you needed a license from the government, your state government,

(12:14):
to provide nutrition and dietetics.
One of the challenges is that the definitions of providing nutrition and dietetics
is really broad and really vague.
And, you know, people and regulators and even the American Dietetic Association
couldn't really determine, you know, who was and who was not.
But what we did know is that, you know, some people were receiving nasty letters

(12:40):
and cease and desist, you know, from investigators and state entities.
So it was around.
So that was kind of the historical portions of it in the 80s.
And then what's wild is that now we're in 2023.
We have access to the Internet. We have access to providers of nutrition and

(13:04):
dietetic advice, interstate, even internationally.
I've even been exploring and taking a look at some of the AI tools that are
available now for nutrition.
There's direct-to-consumer testing. interesting and so one would say like wow
the consumer as you had noted earlier laura has an amazing amount of choice
in the marketplace uh there are no longer these barriers you know,

(13:27):
you can see practitioners of all types interstate even internationally the tools
that were once only available to maybe physicians and laboratories are now available
to everybody i'm saying and i I think others are too,
are these dinosaurs, which are these kind of regulations, are even applicable now to a modern world.

(13:50):
So my role is to convince legislators and state agencies that the walls have
come down, that this information, this advice, and these tools have been democratized.
And any attempt at passing new regulations just flies in the face of reason

(14:11):
and just the marketplace.
Most understand what I'm saying, what we're saying. Unfortunately,
the opposition is well-funded.
They have lots of members and members.
When you have lots of members, when you have a significant amount of money you
can dedicate to advocacy, to political contributions, to events,

(14:34):
you have some political say.
So, you know, we are small, but we are mighty and really just working to get
legislators to realize that the marketplace now has changed so much that that
practitioners and people have access to tools that they previously didn't. it.
I make the kind of the joke that, you know, these regulations are for horses

(14:58):
and buggies, and we're kind of all riding around in, you know,
AI powered electric vehicles.
And so to try and apply something that was written in the 1960s to something
that people live and do every day now is just not applicable.
And we don't want, one of the real goals here is that we don't know what health

(15:19):
and wellness is going to look like in the next few years, the next 10 years.
We don't know what tools and services and practitioners are going to be available to our community.
So we want to make sure that there are very few unnecessary barriers and regulations.
To that really outstanding advancement of science, of health,

(15:40):
of wellness and community.
Yeah, that's wild to consider. Even living in the modern world,
obviously the whole thing has has
changed since these these policies are
put into place obviously i mean gosh how many thousands of
nutrition advice you know sound bites are
i'm i bombarded with when i open my instrument down from who knows who knows

(16:04):
who right um that aside but um so is there any is anybody picking this up like
are the legislators realizing is there any movement toward modernizing these
or Or is it slow? Is there resistance?
There has been a real, and I'm not just rah-rah-ing,
but there is a real bipartisan understanding around we want to reduce the barriers

(16:32):
to both consumers to get products and things that they find healthy.
But also, we want to reduce the barriers to employment.
It's a conservative and very liberal policy right now that we want to remove
unnecessary barriers to people getting jobs and finding employment and being entrepreneurs.

(16:53):
And so it really helps our side when I get to talk to legislators and say,
like, listen, these regulations really just benefit a handful of people in your state.
And there are tens of thousands, if not more, that would be detrimentally affected
by this because they might not qualify for that one particular certification.
And oh, by the way, that one specific certification is provided by one particular trade group.

(17:20):
And they realize that, you know, it is often, legislators are realizing that
we want to reduce the barriers to employment.
And also we live in a information and services age where just those old policies
and those old associations and those old do it our way entities are just not

(17:42):
really applicable to, you know, to our lives.
That's not to say that as health coaches, as nutritionists, as holistic health
practitioners, that this is a free-for-all.
You still have to be truthful in your services.
You still cannot defraud or engage in any illicit activity.

(18:03):
You cannot practice medicine. You cannot practice acupuncture.
You cannot practice chiropractic care. You know, these are all very serious things.
And our community knows that it self-polices itself really well.
And so what we generally argue is that the the danger is so low.
But the benefits are so high and those are we want to see regulations reflect that.

(18:29):
Yeah, that was going to be my questions. Like when the lobbyists or the ADA,
let's say, are they? No, they're the AND now, right?
The Academy of Nutrition. They're the AND now. I still refer to them as the Dietetic Association.
They came forward and they made this argument about how allowing lay people
to actually provide nutrition advice for a fee of some kind is somehow dangerous.

(18:51):
I'm curious where that notion comes from.
Have they ever been asked to provide actual evidence of somebody who actually
did a consumer harm by talking about food or nutrition?
That is, thank you for asking that. I actually have an answer to this.

(19:11):
When they're in meetings, when I'm in meetings with them, they will tell legislators that.
And their staff, that bodies will be stacked high in the street due to unregulated
and unchecked nutrition advice.
They will say that just the harms and the sorrow and the destruction will be significant.

(19:35):
And then we kind of try not to roll your eyes.
Fail. I failed already, but it is challenging.
But when there was the lawsuit brought against the state in Florida,
when they sent the cease and desist letter to the health coach,
we actually had by we I mean, you know, the health coaches, attorneys and the
Institute for Justice actually had the head of the dietetics board on the stand under oath.

(20:02):
And he asked her, can you point to and she's been in this position for like 20 or 30 years,
any specific cases where an individual was was harmed by unlicensed nutrition
advice. And she couldn't.
So I've always found it really entertaining that when there is no penalty of

(20:23):
perjury, the bodies are stacked high in the street.
But when you're on the stand and you can go to jail for lying,
they can't find a single case.
So that is the answer. Oh, my gosh. So here's the thing. So they're saying there's
going to be bodies lying in the street.
Yes. Literally over the last 50 years, by trying to curtail nutrition advice,
the number of people that are obese has skyrocketed.

(20:46):
Since the 1980s, we went from maybe 12%. I mean, it was, it was actually,
it was less than 10% of the population to now almost half, literally almost half.
And then you tie in other metabolic conditions that are tied to diet,
like insulin resistance, type two diabetes, heart disease, They have all skyrocketed.
So this effort to sort of curtail access to nutrition advice,

(21:09):
to licensed, knowledgeable, educated people, clearly it's not doing the job.
It doesn't seem to be. And that's one of the things that we point out is that
the states that have had the strictest nutrition licensing regimes are often
the ones that have the worst lifestyle related condition data.

(21:33):
And so that's a correlation that we point out, that they just don't really have
any data on their side that show what they're asking for makes anyone healthier. there.
One of the points that we bring up pretty regularly, a bill was just introduced
last week in the state of Michigan to license dietitians and nutritionists.

(21:59):
And I pointed out to one of their legislators that there's only 4,000 registered
dietitians in a state of like 20 million.
In that same state, there's 140,000 registered nurses.
And the state says they don't have enough nurses. So my question to them is
like, if only 4,000 people are going to treat, you know, the state for nutrition

(22:21):
related issues, do you have enough people?
Like, are you willing to just say only 4,000 people can, can treat these,
you know, many, many millions.
And that's when legislators realize like, oh, maybe this is not really a great idea.
This might actually be making, you know, more harm. Another thing we point out too, is that.
You know, paperwork benefits the powerful and it's, it's the people,

(22:46):
you know, that have, it's the organizations and associations that have the resources.
And, you know, no legislator wants to hear that they're just giving a handout
to the most powerful interest groups, but that's what they're doing.
And, you know, sometimes you have to call kind of a spade a spade and it's helped. Yeah.
This is a good, it's a good, for me anyway, and I'm not sure if anybody else

(23:07):
listening is having the same sort of paradigm shift because for holistic health
professionals and health coaches,
the narrative around the legislation and what we can and can't do has often
felt like, oh, I'm being sort of restricted to do what I want to do.
But the bigger picture is consumers don't have access to what they need access

(23:28):
to. It's a complete lack of access.
The impact of that. It's a great, it's a great way to view it.
And that's the way we often present it is that, you know, sure,
we always have the practitioner in mind, but we're have the end user in mind,
mostly that why would we want to limit their choices to just one type of nutrition
professional and registered dietitians have their benefits in their lane.

(23:51):
And that's great. And if an individual or an individual's care team or their
physician or their healthcare provider says as you should see a registered dietitian
for these types of services, well, then great.
But where we particularly, well, when we get quite prickly, our side is when
that association tries to mandate that pretty much anything nutrition related.

(24:19):
Is only theirs. And you have to have not only their credential,
but go through their programs and get their license to even talk about it.
And that raises both constitutional concerns, it raises just common sense concerns.
And then, so that's the, those are the policy issues that we are working for

(24:42):
on behalf of health coaches, holistic nutritionists, and other wellness as practitioners.
And it's just specifically nutrition advice that's regulated.
I'm just thinking because as time goes on, more clients are coming to me with,
you know, it's like, yeah, I need help with food and weight loss,
but it's like, but also I, my sleep is crap and my stress management is crap
and I'm not moving enough.
Like the lifestyle pieces fall under, is it, or is it just food and nutrition?

(25:05):
In the more recent versions of their legislation, there are wellness and health coaching pieces.
They will say that, oh, no, no, we just put those in there, but other people
can do it too, but they're just kind of going to be in our scope of practice.
But as long as you're not providing wellness or health coaching advice to people

(25:29):
with a medical condition, then it's okay.
But then we ask them like, well, is obesity a medical condition?
What about high cholesterol?
What about prediabetes? What happens if you have a sports injury?
What happens if you have a food allergy? What happens if you're pregnant?
And you don't get answers. And so that's why we want to make sure that these pieces of legislation,

(25:52):
don't pass and that we don't allow one trade group who has a real monetary interest in,
building a big fence and making it all theirs doesn't win.
Health coach radio listeners have i got a treat for
you to get 72 hour free trial access to primal health coach institute and a

(26:15):
50 off coupon code to the how to become a health coach virtual summit featuring
video interviews with over 30 industry experts visit primalhealthcoach.com forward slash,
hcr today can i just pull back on that for a second so i just want to make sure i got this clear.
So anything that's in the realm of treating a disease is for sure in the,

(26:37):
you know, in the realm of the licensed health practitioner, but the subclinical
people who just don't feel well, what about most people?
Well, you know, the words really matter. And this is, I think,
important to practitioners.
So non-licensed wellness practitioners never use the word tree. Right. And we don't.

(27:00):
But we work with people with lots of different conditions.
Like I just listed a bunch of them. One of the challenging parts with these
nutrition practice rules or regulations is that it's unclear whether an individual
can work with someone to lower their weight if they're obese.
Yeah. Yeah. Because they can say, oh, you can definitely.

(27:22):
I've actually actually had the lobbyists for the Dietetic Association say to
me, no, no, no, listen, you don't get it. I'm like, okay, well, tell me what I don't get.
We're not saying that a health coach can't work with someone who is obese.
We're just saying that you can't treat their obesity.
And so, well, explain to me the difference, because I've got to go tell hundreds

(27:45):
of thousands of health coaches, and they just go, meh, you know.
And so, I said, well, this is not going to pass.
Like we're not, I'm sorry. Like you can't. Okay. So.
I was going to stab at this too, when you're done. Yeah. So,
you know, it's, it's these types of confusing,
vague, and like I said, you know, paperwork protects the powerful.

(28:11):
Also, when there's ambiguity, you know, there's often fraud.
And so when people can't actually explain to us, our side, you know,
what it is they want to regulate, then you're not, we're not,
we're not going along with it.
If, if dieticians said, you know, we work in these specific settings and we
do these specific things.

(28:32):
Okay, sure. Then show it to us. We'll, we'll, you know, but they say,
well, anything, anywhere at any time might be ours.
Who would agree to that? You know, if I was, you know, I, the holistic council
is our community's lobbyist.
You know, we have attorneys, like Like if we or our attorneys ever said,

(28:52):
oh, no, no, let's take that offer.
You should fire us. You should never give us another dime.
So I'm sorry, I get a little heated about these things. So, well,
we do, too, which is why we have you on.
And there were two things that kind of came up in the last couple of minutes
that I kind of want to tag on to in terms of the notion of do we have enough
dietitian? Like you were just talking about that one state.

(29:14):
Do we have enough dieticians to actually help support the likely millions of
people that are going to require their support if we were to kind of put this in place?
And we have like a real life example of this. There's a company that Primal
Health Coach has partnered with.
They're called Simplex Health, and they have an entire program,

(29:35):
a clinical program where they're
working with mostly functional medicine doctors, but they're all MDs.
They do use dieticians, and the dieticians are the ones that are actually formulating
a specific diet to treat a specific condition.
However, insurance will only pay for a certain number of dietetic visits.

(29:56):
So once that's over the client or the patient is left without support,
or perhaps they only pay for one visit a month.
You've got someone who's trying to make an entire nutritional and lifestyle
change and they get support once a month. Are you kidding me?
This is where they're now utilizing health coaches. So we're starting with this internship program.

(30:16):
Dietitians have to go through an internship to health coaches are going to come
in and they're going to go through an internship, but understanding how to actually
function as a health coach to provide that additional education,
support, the resources the clients need to make this change.
And they're working with the dietitian alongside the dietitian.
And this is the way this should go.
So from the standpoint of just time and access to care and support,

(30:39):
there's just no other argument. It's so lopsided otherwise.
And then when you take a look at the concept of employment, I just did a little video.
We're trying to figure out how to purpose about the return on investment of
the education that really should, not required, but really the education that
a health coach really needs to be successful and good at their job.
You know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the average kind of well-regarded,

(31:03):
well-equipped health coaching program that costs a tuition costs somewhere between four and $7,000.
Okay. There's outliers, but that's kind of average, right?
Whereas a four-year degree plus an internship, depending on whether you're calculating
housing and books, all this other stuff, somewhere between, I don't know,
maybe around 80 grand, something like that.
I'd say more than that. Maybe more, right? Up to $100,000.

(31:27):
Meanwhile, the average salary of a full-time health coach versus the average
salary of a dietician entering the marketplace, they're both around $60,000.
Okay. I paid, call it, split the difference between maybe six grand for my education
and training as a health coach, a hundred grand as a dietician,

(31:48):
yet we're going to come out of our schools working full-time at about the same.
It's unbelievable to me in terms of the return on investment required for this.
But to your point, we play different roles where some might be calculating a
very specific diet for a very specific.
Health coaches are in the, okay, you've been diagnosed.

(32:09):
Here's what they're saying we should be focused on food. Tell me how you feel about that.
Let's figure out how we're going to implement it. What resources do you need? Let's go, right?
This is the role that, so two totally different roles. They are two, both equally valuable.
So for folks that are trying to make this decision about what you really want

(32:29):
to be doing in terms of employment and income potential,
I don't think there's enough of a difference on the other side to necessarily
warrant the extra expenditure if what you really want to do is to help people
actually change their lives long term.
And I always thought yeah and I always thought getting into health
coaching is a really great way because I know a number of programs also

(32:51):
the the credential will count for
credits if you do want to go back and pursue other
education and nutrition other sciences so you know I always thought yeah I always
thought getting involved in health coaching even you want to kind of put your
toe in the water of the health and wellness world is a really great way of getting
started it because you can either finish as a health coach or you can continue

(33:13):
your education and move on.
100%. And there was something, there was an email that you sent out to the council
that I really want you to speak to.
And this is, I'm just going to kind of lay it out there because I know what
you're going to say. The scope of practice of a health coach.
A scope of practice is a legal term And it has a real specific meaning.

(33:34):
And that meaning is when a state legally recognizes a health care practitioner
for the services they can provide.
So doctors have a scope of practice. Nurses have a scope of practice.
Optometrists have a scope of practice. Chiropractors have a scope of practice. this.

(33:54):
Health coaches, because we are both not healthcare providers, and we don't have.
A legal scope of practice, what we have are practice guidelines.
What we have are codes of ethics, which are great.
Schools provide their graduates practice guidelines.

(34:15):
They're sometimes referred to as a scope of practice, but legally they're not.
They're practice guidelines.
Associations and organizations like the NBHWC and ICF, they have codes of ethics.
They have practice guidelines as well. And that's outstanding.
So health coaches and holistic practitioners, we fill in the practice space,

(34:40):
you know, where licensed practitioners aren't involved.
And that is with that education, that support, that guidance,
that advice in health, wellness, nutrition, stress management,
that is a big, big space and it's growing.
And that's where health coaches and holistic practitioners practice in. And that's fantastic.

(35:06):
And I want that space to kind of keep growing.
And I also want the holistic council to continue to protect it because I think
other organizations and associations see like, wow, look at all these this health
coach is doing really great work.
I wish we could have a piece of that. And then, hey, how about we build a wall around this piece?
And that's where we say, no, that this marketplace, that these services are

(35:33):
too important, too valuable, and they're still growing.
And we don't want onerous and
weird and vague rules written by one association for their own benefit.
I don't know what health coaching is going to look like in 10 years.
We don't know I know what the whole practice of holistic nutrition is going to look like in 10 years.
But what I do know is that if rules and regulations get on paper now,

(35:57):
they're really hard to get rid of.
And so we want it to grow. We want it to thrive. We want it to mature.
Without, you know, without needless rules, laws, walls, and barriers.
Right. So it's like the objective isn't to clob things back away from maybe
the A&D, but to create a different set, a whole new.

(36:20):
We don't like using their words. It's one of the, one of the things I really
train our coaches and our, and our organizations for people say,
oh, can I put together a meal plan for somebody? buddy?
Like, what do you work in a hospital, a meal plan? No, like, nope.
Who's ever done well with a meal plan? No, like work with your,
work with your clients, develop strategies, like develop tactics,

(36:41):
support them, guide them.
Like who, I'm sorry, I'm getting, but the, I mean, it's essentially decades
of people handing somebody a piece of paper that said, do this.
And they don't do it. And then they get unhealthy.
Like, why do you want it? Why do you want to emulate that? Why do you,
I would prefer people not do that.
So for a long time, I, you know, guided and worked with coaches on,

(37:06):
you know, not using the words and not mimicking the services of practitioners
who have shown very little ability to improve the health and wellbeing of others.
So, you know, we don't use those, those terms because they don't really make
much sense and they don't work.
Another, you know, so those are some of the strategies that we don't know what

(37:30):
holistic nutrition is going to look like. We're not even sure of all the words
it's going to use to communicate it.
But what we do know is we want to make sure that there are as few regulations
and barriers as possible.
And that's what we work on at the Holistic Council. I love that.
I wonder, so I feel like we, we three here have been kind of keeping our fingers

(37:50):
on the pulse of this, just, you know, you obviously in the advocacy space and
policy space and us as educators.
And, and I'm just wondering if maybe health coaches listening who are relatively
new to the industry are maybe feeling this is all over their head a little bit.
So can we talk about, so there, so what you just, the, the bomb you just dropped
is there's technically not a scope of practice for health coaches,

(38:13):
but there are professional guidelines.
There are codes of ethics. What would those be?
Well, you want to be upfront and truthful about your education,
your experience with your clients.
I think all health coach training programs provide client services or client engagement letters.
So review that. Be upfront and clear about the services you do and you do not

(38:37):
provide, your educational programs would have likely helped you along that path.
And be sure to note the things that you are not. You are not a licensed healthcare provider.
You're not going to treat, cure, mitigate diseases, but you're going to build
strategies, resilience, and better health that might cure diseases, but that's not your job.

(39:00):
And so I think you know, really working with the educational programs that health
coaches and other holistic nutritionists have completed. They often have these resources.
And then if you need assistance, reach out to the Holistic Council.
We work with all of the students and graduates of our health coach training

(39:24):
programs and our nutrition programs that are members.
So if you have questions about this, you know, we can assist.
So something I can say just from personal experience, when I first started my
practice and my career, I lived in the state of Illinois, had some pretty tough
laws in terms of the licensure laws.
Again, what I try to explain to people that ask these questions is there is

(39:46):
no licensure law for health coaches.
There's no legal scope of practice. What there are is licensure laws that are
on the books relative to other licensed professions that have exclusionary language
that basically says, unless you hold this license, you can't do these things.
So, and when I was in Illinois, it was, there was a lot, you know,
the dietetic licensure law in Illinois was pretty restrictive and that's getting better.

(40:10):
I have since moved to Florida where quite frankly, the law was worse at one
point and is measurably better now that I'm down here.
And that was all the work of the holistic council.
And I have to give this organization of predominantly volunteers.
I mean, I'm on the board, there's other board members, you know.
So getting all this done on a shoestring budget, and if we had more to work

(40:34):
with monetarily, there's so much more that we could do.
And I just have to, yeah, I'm on the board, but I'm not paid for it.
I'm strictly there because I'm passionate about this.
That the more, there's more of us, quite frankly, in the world,
health coaches than there are dieticians.
And it's all of us just put in five bucks, literally.
It can do a world of difference in terms of protecting our ability to practice.

(40:58):
And one of the things that comes up a lot in terms of providing health coaches
with an avenue to employment or building a business and access to clients is
that the notion of being able to bill insurance.
And this is something that has been sort of on the horizon that I know the National
Board has been advocating for.

(41:20):
But I think a lot of the health coaches that are entering this space that have
heard of this, I think what they have in mind is, hey, once this passes,
if I become a certified health coach, I'm going to be able to bill insurance for my clients.
And we have all been saying, yeah, it's probably not going to work that way,
at least not in the beginning.
And I know that you have some thoughts around that. Do you mind sharing what

(41:41):
you know at this point and your thoughts?
Sure. And I think what I know is not top secret, that American health insurance
is complicated. I'm not telling anybody anything new here.
I think what the national board is doing is outstanding,
collecting the data on the efficacy and effectiveness of health and wellness
coaching and going through the AMA process of getting a category one code,

(42:08):
which is a kind of understood and recognized service,
which would be great.
Some of the caveats there are just because it receives a Category 1 code doesn't
mean health insurance companies have to reimburse for that.
The other point is that health insurance companies reimburse for services, not people.

(42:32):
Just because you're a health coach doesn't mean you get reimbursement.
It's the health coaching service that would get a reimbursement.
Additionally, as I'm sure we all know, dealt with insurance companies one way
or another, that they put limits.
And I just noted this earlier, Laura, when working with the registered dieticians.
And insurance companies often put parameters and limits on the number of visits

(42:56):
and the time, but also the cost.
And so there is a lot that we don't know about the process yet.
And I mean, again, I am super glad that the NBHWC is going forward with this process.
And there's data behind it because I think it will lead to a lot of new opportunities
and new pathways for people to practice and provide health coaching.

(43:20):
But I think we just also have to be realistic and temper expectations that it's
going to be complicated. It's going to be challenging.
It's going to be difficult to navigate, even if there is a category one code.
Um, so that's just, you know, that's just to say that we shouldn't all kind

(43:44):
of just hang our hopes on that, on that one decision that it's really going
to be up to the health coach, um,
on whether you become an effective, uh, coach or not.
Like I wouldn't wait for that one decision to really make or break your interest
in your success as a coach or as a, as a holistic practitioner.
Well, in my thought, and Aaron and I have talked about this before,

(44:06):
too, with other guests in terms of the value,
the internal sort of mental and psychological value to the end client when they
actually have to pay for that service, just how much more committed and invested they are.
And Erin lives in Canada. They don't really have private insurance.
You know, everything's government funded. So she's, none of her clients that

(44:27):
are from Canada anyway, everyone just pays her, right?
And same thing with me. But like, so those that are single payer systems or
government funded healthcare likely not gonna be relevant there either.
And we all just kind of need to move forward. Yeah.
But it's also gonna state that, you know, a lot of people even in the system.

(44:48):
The really good doctors, the other really great practitioners are trying to
get out of the health insurance system.
And so some of the best integrative care you'll find are cash.
So I want to also caveat that when health coaches are working with a client,
there are many different ways that a health coach can work with that client
to find ways of reimbursing or paying for that service.

(45:12):
So what I used to advise people at IIN and other places is that if you're working
with a client, have that client check with their employer.
Oftentimes, their employers have employee wellness benefits.
So check with your HR department.
Is there a pot of money that that individual can access for a health and wellness

(45:32):
coach? That has happened frequently.
We've also told health coaches to work with their clients. And if their clients
get a letter of medical need from their health care practitioner,
it's just like something you print out online.
They can often use what are called their HSA or FSA benefits.
So this is pre-tax money for health and wellness coaching services.

(45:56):
So, you know, check with your clients, you know, on that.
And then even if you have a health insurance plan, check with that health insurance
plan. They might have benefits and other services available to you as a client to use.
So those are three pathways of significantly reducing the cost of health coaching services.

(46:17):
It might take a little work on everyone's end, but I've known many health coaches
that found that their clients have utilized those pots of money and other services
for health coaching services.
That's really cool. That's incredible advice. I definitely get a lot of clients
who will pay with their government-sponsored wellness plan.

(46:38):
And it's pretty broad. It's kind of anything. You can buy a bike.
You can get a gym membership.
You can work with a health coach. It's sort of whatever. But you have to ask for it.
And I will say that this idea of really wanting to be able to use insurance
code so you can kind of play in the big leagues and have all these people who aren't paying.
To Laura's point, when people don't pay, they don't pay attention.

(47:00):
And that's, that's a business kind of, you know, business, whatever health coaching
business advice we give.
But that aside, it's, it's also our opportunities as health coaches within the
collaborative integrative medical system, it's growing, like we're going to
have opportunities to be in this world.
And staying in our lane. And irrespective of what happens with these insurance

(47:24):
codes, those opportunities are there.
And I think to your point, Daryl, it's like become a good coach,
be really masterful at coaching.
Don't wait for insurance codes to become a thing before you step into the space.
I've been practicing for 12 years. I've had 2000 clients who've all paid me
out of pocket. They're out there.
And in the meantime, you're developing your health coaching chops and you're

(47:48):
really learning what you can help people with and the clarity when you realize,
wow, I can help hundreds and hundreds of people with things that a doctor hasn't
been able to, or a dietitian hasn't been able to. It's really empowering.
Like our opportunities have always been very rich and it's growing.
Yes, they have. And then the integration of health coaches into that kind of
traditional medical space is significant.

(48:09):
I was on a webinar recently and And there is a pain management physician who
uses health coaches just to work with people on talking through their physical
pain and found that people that just work with a health coach and they just talk about it,
maybe do some basic exercises and stretching, have significantly reduced the
amount of opioids they use.

(48:31):
And so there are a number of different ways that health coaches will be utilized
in more traditional health care settings.
I just want to put a note on that, that let's not just wait for a CPT code before
exploring all those options.

(48:51):
So if you know of integrative health care practitioners or even traditional
ones that are interested in, you know, really addressing behavior change with
their patients and their clients, I recommend health coaches reach out to them.
If you take a look at the, because I've been doing this for our school,
I have a, and I know Aaron's looked at it too, like you just put in a job filter

(49:12):
on either Indeed.com or LinkedIn or any of those things.
There's literally, I'm pinged every single day with more opportunities.
And if I were to break it down by industry, the vast majority has some.
And it's either insurance companies, companies like UnitedHealthcare,
Humana, they're one of the leading employers of health coaches.

(49:33):
CBS hires health coaches.
A lot of clinical practices, hospitals, government, like NGOs,
like non-government organizations, but they're kind of funded by the government
that provide benefits. They all hire health coaches.
So the number one area of employment opportunity is in these areas.

(49:55):
And this is where I think maybe reimbursement may become helpful is perhaps
in increasing the pay and kind of what companies can afford to pay health coaches moving forward.
But, you know, when I did an initial search about five years ago,
the average salary was like thirty five.
And there weren't that many job ads at all.
And now it's closer. I mean, you know, 50, but I'm seeing like sixty five.

(50:20):
Like and honestly, the ones that are paying a little more do want you to be
national board certified.
They want you to have five years or more under your belt. So to Aaron's point,
just get out there and get experience and become a really good health coach
and speak the language and apply for these jobs.
And just you can share stories of the clients that you've helped and the outcomes
that you've seen. There's lots of smoking cessation programs.

(50:43):
There's many now in terms of.
I was going to say there's tons of like private companies that I'm seeing on these job searches.
Like we're a company that helps middle aged men with obesity.
And we have a doctor and a dietitian and we have virtual health coaches or we're
a company, the pain management company,
as an example, there's all these privately owned companies now that are,
I guess, feasibly run or overseen by doctors that are bringing in virtual health

(51:08):
coaches for this. Yes, this happens quite a bit.
When my last position, I was speaking to many of them.
So what they'll do is these private companies go to a large employer and say,
hey, we can reduce, because a lot of times large employers are self-insured.
So they kind of pay the, and it's
in their best interest to make their employees as healthy as possible.

(51:30):
So they hire these third-party companies and it's, yeah, it's that physician,
maybe physical therapist and health coach, or physician, dietician, health coaches.
And they've shown to be incredibly successful with improving health and wellness,
self-reported health, but also
lowering a lot of the bad markers and improving a lot of the good ones.

(51:54):
Those do exist. Yeah, there's a number of companies like Hinge and Virta, Vera.
There are a number out there. They're really outstanding.
So there's never been a better time, honestly, I think, to be a health coach
in terms of, I think, like when Aaron
and I first started in the terms of trajectory, we were way down here.
And now it's on this huge, you're still way up on the upswing,

(52:17):
you know, and people have at least heard of health coaching.
They might not necessarily really understand what it is, but most of the people
that I, when I say that I'm a health coach, they've at least heard of it for
the most part, which I don't know.
It is helpful though, isn't it? Yeah, it really does. You don't have to start from square one.
Yeah. And, you know, one thing I want to touch on before we let you go in terms

(52:39):
of, hey, we're seeing positive changes in markers, is this concept of sort of
lab testing in our space.
Because to your point, the direct-to-consumer resources available today is unbelievable
compared to where we were 10 years ago.
And it is now, unless you live in specific states, like New York is one that

(53:00):
I know doesn't allow consumers to order labs directly, but the majority of states do.
So now we have access to data trackers, access to lab work, and health coaches
want to be able to help their clients with this kind of stuff.
Off. And there's, these are murky waters.
But I know you've been doing some work and some research around this and talking

(53:23):
to people. So do you mind kind of sharing your thoughts?
Sure. The world of lab testing has.
Exploded and grown so much over just the past few years.
I think culturally, we're all much more comfortable with it because of COVID,
where you had to self-test with

(53:45):
lab tests just to kind of go to school or get on a plane or go to work.
So we're all, as a society, both in Canada and U.S., we're just more comfortable
with lab testing culturally.
And then there's now more technology that make these tests more available that

(54:08):
test for a range of issues, imbalances.
I mean, this is everything from toxicity, like metal toxicities,
to gut microbiome makeup, to vitamin testing to macro micronutrient testing to gut health testing.
I mean, there are dozens of companies that all offer hundreds of different tests.

(54:31):
So my understanding is that there are between about 2,500 and 3,500 different
tests that individuals can purchase and be delivered to their door.
Many of them are kind of saliva swabs. Some are hair.
Some are finger prick tests.

(54:52):
Some are urine, some are stool. They pretty much run the gamut.
And so all of these tests are now available to individuals, whereas just maybe
five or six, seven years ago, they weren't.
The reason why that they're available is that what these labs are is they're
called lab-developed tests, that they really, they're developed to test specific

(55:15):
things. things, hormone levels, vitamin levels.
And because they're not testing for diseases, individuals can order them.
And so the question is, you know, well, what role can health coaches play or
holistic nutritionists, just kind of making the pie large,

(55:37):
what kind of role can they play with these tests?
And I have not found any regulations that say health coaches or non-licensed
practitioners or wellness practitioners cannot.
So there's that off the bat.
Secondly, you know, these tests
don't treat for diseases. They treat for optimal health and wellness.

(55:57):
So that is right in the kind of field of health and wellness coaches.
Third, these companies that provide access to these tests are very savvy and
they know which ones are best for certain practitioners.
And so there are multiple levels of safety kind of built in.
A, these tests don't treat for diseases. So that's why individuals and health

(56:23):
coaches can be involved in them.
You know, taking a swab or sending a hair follicle back is not very dangerous.
Three, you know, these companies also have kind of internal policies to make
sure that the people and practitioners they work with are following their rules
and regulations and guidances and disclaimers as well. So that's super safe.
And so I encourage health coaches and other wellness practitioners to seek out

(56:48):
these really innovative tests and figure out what they are comfortable with,
what their education and experience and knowledge is of these areas and find
out if you want to incorporate it into your practices for your clients,
because they can be very, very insightful.
And why wouldn't we want to use these tools? Well, that's interesting.

(57:08):
It's interesting. So, yeah, I mean, you are, you explained it well.
It's like they're not, they're not testing for diseases or, you know,
there's nothing diagnostic really there.
It's just sort of shoring up insufficiencies or, you know, giving you information to make moves.
So that's, that's promising, actually. Yeah.

(57:29):
It just feels like it feels like I wonder if there's some training,
though, that a health coach needs to know how to remain perfectly within their
professional guidelines.
You know what I mean? Like, what's interesting is that I take a look at some
of the tests themselves and the results that one gets are usually not just raw data.

(57:55):
Data there's like descriptions and guidances
by the testing companies and then also all these
testing companies before a test is purchased a physician in your state reviews
it and if there is anything that comes back to the client or to the coach where
something is so out of whack that the physician is notified so that there are

(58:17):
multiple levels of safety kind of built into the process.
And so, you know, yes, health coaches, you know, before they engage in some
of these tests with some of these companies, you know, they might,
you know, require coaches have certain qualifications or backgrounds.
And also the testing companies provide like licensed healthcare professionals

(58:38):
on duty for any coaches or others that have questions about them.
But because the tests are not assessing diseases or needs, but really working on optimal health.
That's why they're essentially available to the general public and health coaches
and other holistic practitioners can be a part of it.

(59:00):
Well, I didn't know that part about the fact that every test is ultimately run
past a physician or a team of physicians to see if there's any red flags,
anything that needs to be escalated?
Yeah, so that's how the business has been developed over the years.
So when a client purchases a test, they're not ordering it.

(59:23):
They're purchasing it. And then that purchase goes to a physician who then orders the test.
And the test is then sent either to the coach or usually to the client.
And the client takes the test and then gets the results.
And if the results for that particular test, like let's say you're just testing
for overall vitamin panel,

(59:44):
and let's say something's absurdly low or incredibly high, you will get a notification
from some licensed healthcare provider that something is incredibly So what's
great about this, and I think everybody's kind of mindful,
is that they built in all these kind of safety mechanisms to it.
And so people get that really good, you know, that information,
that advice, that guidance about their well-being.

(01:00:07):
And if any red flags come up that they can do it.
Yeah. Yeah, there's more and more of them popping up now. And many of them have
reached out to us looking to partner. And we have been open.
As a matter of fact, you know, Aaron alluded to, gee, I wonder if there's a
space for training in this.
A lot of these companies do offer it, actually. They have information and little

(01:00:28):
training videos and samples on their website so that both the consumer and the
health coach can kind of understand what it is these things really mean in terms of practical advice.
But, you know, we're, we, to your point, let's not use their language.
Health coaches don't order labs. We don't take her labs, we don't translate

(01:00:49):
labs, and we don't diagnose or prescribe anything as a result of these labs.
We don't do any of these things.
The client is free to order a direct-to-consumer lab, not order, purchase, okay?
You know, let's not use that language. And let the doctor on the other end say,
okay, I'll order the lab.
And then those labs then know that the end person receiving this result is actually

(01:01:12):
a health consumer. It's not another practitioner.
And that typically speaking, those results are going to come with some sort
of context, you know, that the client and the health coach can work with.
And so, you know, we've been here at Primal Health Coach Institute,
been looking at trying to kind of aggregate all of these resources together
so that health coaches and their clients know what's out there and how to use them properly.

(01:01:36):
Gosh, we're growing. I just, I'm a little like choked up about like when I first
went down this path, like over 10 years ago, I had no idea what the heck I was doing.
I just knew that there were a lot
of people that were where I was a couple years prior that I could help.
And I just wanted to move in that direction and do anything I could to help.

(01:01:57):
So I went and paid like $6,000 for my first certification.
No idea what I was going to do with it. I sort of stumbled my way to where I
am now 10 years later. Or, you know, I know Aaron entered this field around
a similar time and I talk to people all the time as well.
And seeing where health coaching is now is so inspiring and empowering to me.

(01:02:20):
And oh, my gosh, we're just getting started.
It's exciting times. And that's why I want to make sure that the council is well supported.
So we recommend any of your listeners visit the site, make a contribution.
If there are any real innovative thinkers and doers out there that want to figure

(01:02:43):
out ways of partnering with the Holistic Council, please reach out to us.
Just visit the website, holisticcouncil.org.
And super want to thank Laura and Aaron and also Primal Health Coach for being
a longtime supporter of the Holistic Council.
Well, we believe in it and it's, and we're just getting stronger by the day.

(01:03:03):
So fantastic. So holisticcouncil.org.
Do you, are you, are we on social at all? Is there like an IG or a Twitter or
anything that people can follow? We have a Facebook page.
Yeah. So I've got to talk to my social media team, which is also me and tell
them to, I'm the finance team, I'm the website team, I'm the social media team.

(01:03:23):
We have a, we have a Facebook page, but a lot of our communications are state
specific in there to our members, you know, to take action on state-specific issues.
It's challenging because like as a policy organization, you don't want to post
too much because we have quite a bit of advantage when we don't really advertise
exactly where we are and what we're doing because it's a kind of a legislative piece to it.

(01:03:47):
Though I do think we should probably spend a little more time on our socials,
but I get so into the policy, I'm not sure how well it always translates.
To subscribe to the emails, become a member, whatever, do some sort of like
monthly, I don't even five bucks a month makes a massive difference when you
get enough people in that, um, get on the email list.

(01:04:09):
Cause I get all those email blasts of everything that's happening and it fires
me up every time I see them.
So if anybody that's listening in their, in their school or their program is
not a member of the council, please reach out to your program ASAP and get them
to become a member. And the list of members is right on the website.
Awesome. Awesome. I think, I think we covered it.

(01:04:30):
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Daryl. This has been awesome. Thanks,
everybody. Really appreciate it.
This podcast was brought to you by Primal Health Coach Institute.
To learn more about how to become a successful health coach,
get in touch with us by visiting primalhealthcoach.com forward slash call.
Or if you're already a successful health coach, practitioner,
influencer, or thought leader with a thriving business and an interesting story,

(01:04:53):
we'd love to hear from you.
Connect with us at hello at primalhealthcoach.com and let us know why we need
to interview you for health coach radio thanks for listening.

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