Episode 27 | The "Making" Money Myth

In this conversation, Daniella and Rebecca explore the intersection of music, cult experiences, and cultural identity. They discuss how growing up in a cult influenced their music preferences, particularly the emotional suppression associated with it. The conversation delves into the complexities of cultural appropriation in the music industry, the impact of fame, and the challenges of navigating cultural identities. They reflect on their personal journeys of understanding music and the importance of community and cultural exchange in shaping their experiences. In this conversation, Rebecca and Daniella explore the dynamics of listening, attention, and the challenges faced in graduate school settings. They discuss the cultural implications of entitlement and the concept of cancel culture, emphasizing the importance of understanding consequences. The dialogue shifts to the value of community and diverse experiences, critiquing the traditional notions of authority and work. They advocate for a gig economy that fosters connection and collaboration, while also addressing the isolation prevalent in modern society. The conversation culminates in a critique of the myth of making money and the need for a relational revolution to combat loneliness and foster community.

Connect with Rebecca at:

The White Woman Whisperer Website

 

The White Woman Whisperer Patreon

 

The White Woman Whisperer TikTok

 

Connect with Daniella at:

You can read all about that story in my boo

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The whole phrase of, you don't have anything nice to say, white women, you say this to,you teach this to your daughters.

(00:08):
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
And that is a value system somehow.
That is the showing a good child is one you don't see or hear much of.
A good day is.
doesn't happen for good people actually.
Good people are not allowed to have good days.

(00:30):
You're supposed to go like, I work so hard for someone else and I'm just doing for othersuntil I am fulfilled that way.
No, no.
So I'll have you know I have been on a Kendrick Lamar Drake journey.

(00:58):
Right?
Because you were listening to the breakdown.
so I don't know if we talked about this, but how like much music trauma is involved withthe cults, at least a lot of the big evangelical cults that we grew up with.
So Children of God was a complete separatist cult, right?

(01:20):
We made our own music and that was all that we listened to.
And we had a rather large music program, because we had this founding member of FleetwoodMac who was in our group, and we were the entertainment cult, right?
Like that was the product that we sold.
So when I, at 15, like dropped out of the cult, literally from a different country, right?

(01:44):
And then I was just like dropped into Texas and...
in high school, right, 15 years old.
And I swear the scariest questions were where are you from and what music do you listento?
And it's funny, because as I talked about this, someone was like, so you were like forcedto pick a team right from the beginning.

(02:08):
And so what happened to me was basically I fell into country music.
And I think it's because it's easy.
Right, you hear it one time and you understand it.
And I think it's also because when we come out of these evangelical cults, we have thislike praise music kink, right?

(02:29):
Like we want this music that is like the longing of loving Jesus and being accepted andall of this music.
But it's just really, we've been taught so much of like emotional suppression.
and then emotional evocation, right?
Like crying to like a rascal flat song about a girl dying with cancer was like the closestI could get to feeling emotion in my life.

(02:59):
make people feel like you're allowed to make people feel, but you shouldn't feel on yourown.
Right, right, because in cults, like it's attitude control, right?
And the only acceptable attitude is happy all the time until we tell you to cry, right?
Like cry night at church or like in the military, it's when the 21 gun salute goes off andyou can just like lose your military bearing and howl at the moon.

(03:29):
And then of course,
we put racism on top of this and white supremacy on top of this.
And I begin to realize like, but there's another reason that the evangelicals are likefine with country music, which is of course that it's very white, right?

(03:51):
And so, and not anymore.
Beyonce, well, right, the industry of country music, we'll say that, is white, white,white, but yeah.
You know, and so I kind of just only listened to country music, you know, that was easy.
And then I kind of got top 40.
And then as Taylor Swift moved around, I like jumped a little bit of genres.

(04:17):
But only recently had I been thinking like, why, why am I so terrified of music andstarted like branching out?
And then again, with all this racism stuff.
But I swear, I was, you know, today as I was getting ready for this, I was like, butimagine, imagine if I had found rap, if I had found music that had been like, okay, for me

(04:45):
to feel angry as a 15 year old who had just been thrown away by her people, you know?
feelings that you're allowed to have are in like reverence or in relation to yourpositionality or a man or, you know, I'm not where I wanna be yet.
It's like commiseration.

(05:06):
It's not uplifting.
It's not, we're gonna be all right in the midst of all of this.
I mean, if you have Jesus, right?
If you just look to this thing that's greater than you,
then you can have this emotion.
You can emote for that purpose.

(05:27):
But also Texas, like, and you think about it, you went, you were like, cult.
Years later, had been in the army for like two years.
So probably eight years later, I had this realization as I was going to like my fifthstate that all of the US wasn't like Texas.

(05:48):
And I was so relieved.
Girl, I was like, oh my gosh, okay, good.
like a maricult.
It really was hard to fall into that.
In two pledges?
That's twice the cultiness.
Two pledges.
And the fact that I didn't know that.

(06:09):
pledge allegiance to the American flag and then we also pledge allegiance to the Texasflag.
And do you know why I know this is cause it, no, wait, not that part, but I know that youhave to take US government or no, Texas government is like a class you have to take in
some colleges.
Cause I learned from cheer cause in cheer the Netflix show, had to go to some place inTexas.

(06:34):
And they were like, okay, so what's tech?
Like you have to learn specifics about Texas.
What do we think conservative?
Like you have to answer these questions.
What's good food?
And I moved, and I moved from Guadalajara, Mexico.
Guadalajara, Mexico is like one of the places that the good Mexican food comes from.

(06:59):
And I moved from there to Texas.
Like I'm still traumatized by Tex-Mex.
Like I can't, I can't do it.
I don't understand it.
And well, yeah, because I come from New Jersey for the most part.
Like, I remember it being a conversation at the time, like, you know, you don'ttechnically have to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

(07:25):
Like it was this, it was kind of this undercurrent of like, if you wanted to, you couldmake a scene.
And I remember thinking the whole God thing, and it was a little bit more open of a
Now you still follow the rules for the most part because it's easier, but at least there'san understanding that the value is questionable.

(07:47):
You can question it.
And so I tell you, that was the weirdest thing for me, coming from a cult.
And then like on my second day of school, everyone stands up, their hands on their heartsand starts chanting.
And like, I never did it.
I would stand up, but I never did it.
And now looking back, I'm like, wow, I spent two and a half years in high school.

(08:10):
Like, I'm glad that none of my professors ever like, my teachers ever like took an issuewith that, because they could have.
But also the choice of choosing country music as like a survival choice in a way at thattime, right?
which is the smarter, it wouldn't have made sense for you to come here and be like, yeah,rap.

(08:32):
you know, you're trying to fit in and survive.
I mean, ideally, yes.
If you, I don't know, with today's mind, but that's like a systemic choice.
That's a, like safety seeking.
And this was part of the realization for me, I think about how like understanding how likethe white supremacy got me was like, I was just trying so hard to fit, right?

(09:00):
And what I was told, where I was being told that I fit was as this like wasp girl fromTexas, you know?
And like, so I kind of did that.
And that's actually,
Speaking of music, that's actually one of the things I wanna pull apart in my musical, inmy skinny skinny blonde woman song, is that like, you you go from being this spunky, like

(09:28):
young lieutenant who's just out here to survive, and then you're offered this like, if youcan be perfect Captain Combat Barbie, you know, like you can own the world.
And not.
Like now, obviously I can tell that whole story or it can be like, nah, and leave itbehind.
But like then, like I just thought I was surviving, you know?

(09:51):
Like I would say, obviously not similar, but the way you talk about like how you playedthe corporate game in corporate America, like I just thought I was being the best version
of what I was supposed to be, not realizing that like the perfectionism and the needing tofit and the masking and all of that.
was so tied into white supremacy.

(10:14):
Right.
It feels like survival because you, it doesn't feel like a real choice.
It's like, you want to be smart or you'll want to be scared.
And you're not, it's in hindsight, obviously things make sense.
And I think there's a lot that has to like, we have to do to separate our hindsight withthe like psychic vision that we think we have of like, if I had just, you know, I doubt

(10:40):
it.
I think things went the way they went, but it is great to look back and say, that's why Ihave an aversion now, because it's like this identifier of where you stand.
It didn't have to be, but in Texas, yeah, it kind of is.
Or if you're white, it's a choice.

(11:01):
you know, what became interesting to me was that after the 2016 election, I just was like,cold turkey out of country music, like I was so disgusted with kind of the whole situation
and the whole ideology.
So it's like, I was beginning to understand.
these pieces, you know, and people had for years been like, you're not a country musicperson.

(11:26):
Like what?
This is so strange.
But I was just like, no, just got to be safe.
Got to be.
See, what is that even?
What's a country music person?
Because that doesn't exist for like culture, right?
Like I, you would say I'm a rap person.
I'm an R &B person, maybe an R &B person.

(11:48):
Cause that's kind of like a lover.
That's like, there's relationship in there.
R &B is rhythm and blues.
You know, I like to talk about my feelings.
That makes sense with vibes.
But like the cult music is giving chant.
There isn't harmony in building.
It's just like more, more and sad and controlled.

(12:14):
That's, but like country wasn't even an option for me.
Also, my mom was like, we're not.
See, she knew.
My white mom was like, we're not country.
We're not allowed to call you Becky, me.
There is no Becky and there is no country.
That's probably like a safe bet.
Yeah.

(12:37):
Yeah, so anyway, you know, it's very interesting for me.
And of course, you know, now you have like Beyonce with Cowboy Carter, like, you know, sothat's been really, really fascinating for me.
And then.
now just with the like the Kendrick Drake thing and like, it's so fun.
It's so fun to know the story behind it.

(12:58):
And by the way, like Drake's just a little cult baby, you know, like he grew up in thecults of Hollywood.
And he's like, he's still out here, just like performing just trying to write it's likeKendrick Lamar wants to be number one because he because he knows he's the best.
Or like he wants you know, he was like, I want to be the best whereas Drake

(13:21):
grew up in a world, in a cult where like you have to be number one.
Everything, you know, one of the things about growing up in a cult is there's nounconditional love.
And I was watching, you know, I went from watching Josh Johnson talk about Kendrick Draketo watching him talk about P Diddy.
And he gave me this piece about the cults of Hollywood, which is it's it's fame, right?

(13:44):
It's a cult that answers to an idea.
And the idea is that fame is the ultimate good.
And so in pursuit of this fame, you will sacrifice basically anything and your children,which is always the case.
And it's so interesting, I think, that Rihanna tried to tell us about the cult ofHollywood in a music video and there's been a lot of this.

(14:13):
Anyway, I love that I now have rap analogies.
in my cult stuff.
Yeah.
And, and the, the Drake of it all is like, he represents the industry for black peoplebecause he also, he represents like the biracial should be able to do anything.

(14:34):
Like he'll just like dip his toe into being Hispanic.
He's not, he just tried to be Jamaican for a while.
I don't think he got tied to Jamaica.
He, you know, he's admitting it and that's cute until it's not.
because how dare you make all this and then speak for things.
So the one, the big problem he made was telling Kendrick that he was rapping like he triedto free the slaves.

(15:01):
And then Kendrick said, how dare you?
He's like, when you get too comfortable, you have to know your placement.
And white people don't like hearing that, but it's the-
what, so that was interesting, right?
Because of course, so it's like Kendrick or Drake, other than growing up in Canada, whichis, that's the next question.

(15:21):
That's the next question I have for you.
But he's white mom and Jewish, right?
And he's getting accused of cultural appropriation.
And I'm learning about this as a white person who knows you, right?
And like, you have a white mom and are Jewish and like, you are not.

(15:41):
Nope.
Nope.
I'm also a woman.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
way already so that was like an interesting side of it and then I was also thinking butlike isn't the n-word like very specifically an American word

(16:02):
It is.
So here's how I.
has been exported, but like I think, right?
Like the fact that he's Canadian.
He's like I said, too comfortable, right?
And just because you can get away with doing something, that's whiteness.
Doing something because you can do it.
So like white people tend to think, you only want to be black so you can say the N word orsomething.

(16:27):
Like this getting to do stuff, right?
I believe it makes, I believe if you heard it in your household growing up and it comesnaturally to you that way,
then it makes sense for you to say it.
My dad never said it.
He's from Jamaica.
He didn't say it like in conversation.
He would say it in, obviously if we were like repeating something or say, you know, hewouldn't say the N word instead of the word.

(16:53):
But because it's not a part of my natural lexicon, I don't just add it in.
I feel more comfortable saying N word just because that's how I hear it most often comeout of my mouth.
But that's the...
the patriarchal cultic system, he's still in.
He's coming from outside, dipping his toe in, finding success and then going, this is minenow.

(17:17):
And he's a man.
I had to know my, I had to do this work before I could get into this.
Cause if you had caught me back in corporate Rebecca days, I probably would have said somestuff that like I would today not say because
That was me on the ladder to success.
This is how you, blah, blah, safe choices.

(17:40):
I say the safest choice now was leaving, but at that time, obviously I didn't think that,so.
He was young, he was on TV, he, you know?
He was in the cult of fame and he was supposedly winning, right?
Like that's what they tell you.
And I look at all of these young kids and by the way, like I made the decision like mymusical is gonna have puppet children.

(18:07):
Like I cannot do child acting to another generation of children.
And it's just like he's done the thing and he's gotten the success.
and he doesn't understand why he's not all healed inside.
And this also to me, like so closely mirrors my journey.

(18:32):
You know, like obviously I wasn't the number two Spotify artist.
though?
Aren't you kind of glad you didn't?
Because that's, this is not, I don't want to be Drake, you know?
I thought I had the experience when I was an army captain and I wasn't all fixed that Ihad learned.
But no, if my book had come out on the New York Times bestseller list, I would still bethinking that I was winning the game.

(18:59):
I'm doing it right, I've outrun the trauma, look at me, I'm shiny.
And you just have to keep going with that all the time.
You know, that's the other thing that I think is like so exhausting.
Yeah, mean, right.
And it's like then it's the next thing.
There is never stopping and being still.

(19:23):
And I think.
It's like that's the the poisoned premise that there is a number one, and I feel like evenKendrick is ends up coming out on top because he's just been consistently for the culture
and he stands for something.
And it's not for everyone where Drake is the industry standard in terms of can reachmiddle quote, middle America, whatever that means.

(19:50):
Yeah.
and black people were accepted cause he's, you know, he seems to like black women.
puts black women in the videos and then, you know, it doesn't last cause he's a man in aman's world and he was doing well.
Like that can't, we can't look at success as.
the way they want us to see it.

(20:12):
Like systemic success means you stay in the system and you play to it.
And that runs out.
You can only play for so long.
Like I said, Monopoly, know, and there was something you had said, it may have been on thelive about the castle and like just even thinking about the homes this castle, think I

(20:37):
was.
working with this nuclear family being the first corporation we're in, because it's likethe castle.
But you even think about what a castle needs.
A castle is a cult in itself.
It's a, because you can't run a castle.
I mean, you have to run a castle.
You can't just live in one.
You can't just be, you have to have managed, you gotta take care of it.

(21:00):
And they want you in this big hunk of place where you need so much all the time.
versus a hut, which they try to make us hate, you know?
And that's why I started talking to white women about building their hut of humility.
And it was interesting how many people kind of rushed, wrestled at the hut part.
Like that's rude.

(21:21):
What do you mean?
It's honestly some of the most innovative use of land and space and keeping yourselfmobile because you can rebuild a hut.
that's, if there's political,
issues in your area, something wants to come, you go somewhere else.
Yeah.
Anyway, I.
Right.
Like there is.

(21:44):
There's a lot to do with slowing down, but you're never slowing down.
If you're successful like Drake, stop making music now.
Stop, stop it.
Stop, but you can't.
Because you have to constantly protect your position.
Once you attain a position, that's something, like even the whole breaking records I'vebeen thinking about, like how do white people have fun, right?

(22:06):
Their holidays are weird, they're based on like suffering and like.
other people suffering and you gotta suffer maybe fast and yes it's fun but you gottaspend a lot.
Presence, not presence.
Right?
Like your presence should be the present but it's not.
It's lights in, trees inside, lights outside, it's a whole gaslighty event but.

(22:31):
You can't, like, you can't just stop.
A family reunion exists because you're just a family.
Doesn't matter.
But like a wedding, a ceremony, ceremonies.
I don't remember where I was going with that, but.
I just think that's where I talk about grieving our goals, right?

(22:53):
Living in a castle, getting to the corporation, being number one, being Drake of anyindustry.
Sounds good.
I was on, I was with it.
I like, he made a video that was basically about mitzvah and had Lil Wayne in it.
And I was like, my God, this is the best black and Jewish.
Woo hoo.
And that's great.
That was great for that time.

(23:16):
But he can't stop.
What if he, what about just stopping?
My absolute favorite was when Kendrick called him a misogynist, because I'm like, only anon-misogynist would use misogynist as an insult to like another man.

(23:37):
And I loved it.
It's just so subtle and awesome.
Yeah.
There's lots of subtleties and creating, creating the space for that to be able to, youhave to slow down, zoom out, see where you're at.
But this whole consumer.
about it, right?
Like even my whole thing, it's like I needed to understand music fast and country musicfelt the easiest to understand.

(24:02):
And it felt accessible, whereas like rap is the opposite, right?
Like I'm still only on like the first two levels.
Yeah.
you know, have to listen to it so many times and get so many different meanings and youhave to know all of these.
You know, I'm also reading the Hamilton musical book at the same time.
And so he's talking about all of his references and inspirations and how he's likebringing rap into this story.

(24:29):
And that was exactly what I was terrified of.
Right.
It was like I couldn't have that conversation.
I couldn't pass as someone who knew about music.
So then it would become obvious that I didn't fit.
And so I just had to be like, okay, I can be good at country music, you know.
my goodness, you can be good at kind of, that whole thing, right?

(24:51):
And like, for the Kendrick, you don't have to, it's just, sorry, it just reminded me ofthe joke about white men.
Sometimes they'll be like, really, you like this band?
If you were like, wear a shirt, they're like, well, name the uncle of the leaders,whatever, you know, that's so, the testing of people is so interesting.
Black people don't do that.
If you appreciate an artist or a moment or the Super Bowl performance,

(25:14):
I don't know every single song that he did.
So that too, right?
Because I don't know anything about this and somebody was like, okay, make a series,right?
Like as you're learning Kendrick and Drake.
And so I did and I was just like, this is what I'm learning about.
This is blah, blah, blah.
Like I talked about the cultural appropriation and like, you know what?

(25:34):
Everybody was nice.
Everybody, you know, I was like, if I say something wrong, let me know.
Like people did, people wanted to educate me.
And now I have.
So many examples of like, you first of all, people are like, you don't ever let anyonecorrect you.
I'm like, no, I do when I'm talking outside of my area of expertise, right?

(25:55):
But just people being like white people, right?
Being like, oh, now you can't talk about anyone else's culture, blah, blah, blah.
I'm like, no, I did it.
I got educated.
This is inclusion.
This is what inclusion looks like.
This is, where you are, where we allow you in, but that's because we can tell you actuallywant to be here.

(26:16):
Not we allow you in because we're such good people.
No, we're just, we enjoy it a lot.
You know, when you enjoy something and someone else is like, what's that about?
You're like, I can't wait to tell you.
That's literally our culture.
don't.
And, and that's, it's it's supposed to be.
And that's the difference between groups and communities.
and honestly, this was the thing that I learned, right?

(26:39):
Like I was masking so hard and it's under this kind of like, I now know it's the familiarlike cult baby, homeschool kid illusion that like, if we don't pass, if we're not good
enough, they're gonna like vote us off the island.
know, like specifically in Uncultured, there's this point where I write an essay thatsays, I grew up in a cult.

(27:01):
And then,
She's calling me, my black high school counselor, by the way, calling me to the office totalk to me.
And in my mind, I'm like, this is it.
Like the police, like they're coming to take me away, right?
Like they've discovered that I don't belong.
And there was this other author who even says, she was like, you Americans, like you say,what, did you grow up in a cult?

(27:26):
A lot to people, like when they admit they don't know something.
There's two things people say.
They'll say, did you grow up in a cave or did you grow up in a cult?
Right?
what I, and she was like, it's so isolating when you did grow up in a cult.
But what I learned was all I had to do was be like, yes, I grew up in a cult.
Help me.

(27:47):
You know?
One of the times I started learning about music when I was writing Uncultured and I was onTwitter and I was like, hey, I grew up in a cult.
Don't know anything about music.
Everyone give me like your.
best song of all time and then I made these playlists, you know, or I'd be like, I need totap into this feeling and people would help me like make a playlist.
And I was like, that's what it is.
Right?

(28:07):
Like everyone loves teaching.
Everyone loves being an expert.
Everyone loves sharing a thing with you.
Right?
Like people were just like, I'm having so much fun watching you experience Kendrick andDrake for the first time.
Right?
Like I wish I could do that again.
And so it's like,
are our community.
Like that's, that's why I saying you could make a whole thing just on reactions to that.

(28:30):
That's what you don't have that would cut.
Well, I don't know.
I saw people doing the Taylor Swift first listen reactions and it gave a lot of this.
Right?
Okay.
But like the Beyonce first listens all over the place.
People leaving their chairs, people falling out of their chairs and that's enjoyable towatch.

(28:50):
And then when I listen to it again, I get to kind of have mine and yours.
Right?
So like now next time I watch Kendrick, I'm to be like, I wonder if she noticed this.
And I also learned about myself and I'm neurodivergent and I'm the person that has tolisten to, I don't have first reaction to songs.
I have to know the song before I can really have a reaction about it.

(29:12):
And I even learned this about myself in literature class.
It was like in class, in the discussion was where I would have the thing and I'm a spokenword processor and all of this stuff.
so, but.
I mean, honestly, so my friend asked me once, she was like, what was the difference beforewhen you were so scared?
And it was like, I literally would spend like hours watching TV shows, just trying tolike, kind of like suffering under this idea that I could someday pass.

(29:43):
And then just actually realizing that like, I look, I didn't grow up in this culture.
And I say this to like any of you that had a childhood where you were being held separate.
from the world, right?
Like you didn't grow up in that culture and you're never gonna pass as growing up in thatculture, right?

(30:03):
So me trying to pass as a white American Anglo-Saxon Protestant from Texas is just as muchcultural appropriation as like a Rachel Dolezal thing, right?
And also I don't have to try to pass as a black person to enjoy or experience thatculture, right?
Like all you have to do is just be like, hey,

(30:24):
I'm here, I'm from nowhere, or I don't know this, want to experience this.
And I've never had anyone be like, nah, white girl, go away.
Right?
Like, no, you can't listen to this thing is whiteness, right?
White people wanted Black people stop reading and writing.
We just wanted to read and write.

(30:47):
We didn't care what you were doing.
And it's like, our joy, like I always say, exists despite oppression.
And I think a lot of white joy exists to spite the oppressed.
Like, we're crushing them.
All the wins or someone else has lost and you can't win unless someone loses.

(31:08):
And that's just, that's the start of whiteness.
Like there is a winning.
But what if we're just being?
Now, if you want to come challenge the culture, it's not going to work out well for you.
But I do think it's interesting that you felt that kind of thing.
heard that these people who go to Christian, like church camps,

(31:29):
tend to think that if someone finds out, there's one day someone's gonna come up to youand say, do you believe in God?
Like with a gun pointed at them.
And if they say yes, that's the moment.
I gotta tell you, no one cares about you that much.
Let alone all the other stuff about Christianity that's supposed to make you so specialthat someone wants to kill you for it.

(31:50):
Like, whoa.
a totally white lady panic, right?
But this panic that like people are giving, are putting edibles in your children's candyat Halloween.
Like nobody's giving your children their drugs.
Like, are you kidding?
zero times zero times do you know how it looks anyway i just

(32:13):
Like I've just been talking about how the like this satanic panic thing of the eightiesand nineties was like all made up, right?
This was just QAnon and Pizzagate 20 years before.
And like there was no satanic ritual abuse going on.
Like that wasn't a thing.
And I do also just want to say really explicitly for the listeners, like.

(32:37):
I also, like, I didn't just grow up in a cult that was saying, like, only listen to thisJesus music.
They were also saying African beats, rhythm of the devil, blah, blah, blah, right?
All of this very, very, very racist stuff.
So I did, like, when I first interacted with African American culture at this huge schoolin Houston, Texas, like, I didn't know what to think.

(33:06):
I didn't know what to think about any of my interactions with anyone, but I had been told,right?
Like too loud, ghetto, right?
All of those things that, know, like when I saw Samuel L.
Jackson say that in Kendrick's show, no explanation was needed.
I was like, this is exactly what white America is going to say.

(33:30):
because that's what they told us.
And I literally, I mean, it's quite embarrassing, but I remember being like, I just don'tlike gangster culture.
know, like I'm just like afraid of it in whatever way it shows up.
And you know, like.
I that's so weird to like have an explicit dislike for something cultural.

(33:50):
Like, I didn't listen to country music, but I didn't write.
Yeah.
Right?
Right.
into my head by the cults.
And just going back to like, because this is part of what we're doing and so many of mylisteners are here deconstructing white led cults that like a big part of your small

(34:11):
Christian Bible college, right?
Your private school, your cult like came out of desegregation, came out of keeping us fromthem.
And like that is in the cult teachings.
Like it's running through everything, whether you realize that or not.
Yeah.
being in opposition to your existence, being in opposition to someone is inherently, Ifeel like just deleterious of yourself.

(34:40):
like, there's a conversation that always comes around about black men and in theinterracial relationships, right?
I am the product of that.
However, the converse is is what is the conversation, right?
If it's
I just fell in love with this person.
Okay.
But a lot of times it ends up being I date white women because black women, here are allthese terrible things.

(35:07):
That's not a good reason to like a different group, right?
But same thing with being yourself.
You don't want to say, I'm great.
I'm a good person because I don't insert human activity, whatever it is.
I am not like,
So you are centering a dislike and do you know that?

(35:29):
And I think it's good for white women to question that.
Cause for me, country music, we didn't listen to it cause we didn't listen to it.
We didn't hate it.
We didn't spend time talking about how we don't like it in my house.
We just didn't, listened to Luther Randolph and Stevie Wonder instead.
We were actively listening to things we did like.
And I even just think there's this thing about like...

(35:53):
Did I just totally lose where I was going?
Was it about what you aren't, like the anti-identity?
Yeah, yeah, it was.
But I don't, I don't know.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
my husband had a totally relevant conversation with his grandfather last night talkingabout music.

(36:16):
It gets even wider than country.
So my husband is one of those people who loves music for music sake, all music, Mongolianpop and like
There was some kind of folk music he found recently and I'm like, it's the screams of ourancestors and rap and British rap, literally anything you can get his hands on and he

(36:44):
loves it.
I am not that person.
I get overstimulated.
So he recently found John Baptiste's new album where he does Beethoven and incorporatesblues entirely piano.
And he said, I have not been so moved by something that was just piano.
in a long time and he was really excited about it and he has his people he talks musicwith and one of those people sometimes is his granddad so he calls granddad and granddad

(37:12):
is the one that got him into classical music in the first place he's both of them are veryfamiliar with the canon of classical music however you want to call that the beit tov and
the Mozart, Vivaldi all of that so he's explaining it to granddad
And Granddad's like, yeah, I have that on my Spotify list.
I listened to it.
It was okay.

(37:33):
And then starts talking about how there's nothing to be improved upon with Beethoven.
And he said, you know, since you have Spotify, because Granddad is just blown away by whatSpotify is, you can find other people playing Beethoven without changing Beethoven, and
you'll find the best music that's ever been made.

(37:57):
And granddad's on speaker at this point, so I'm like, I'm looking at Jonah like, are yougoing to handle this?
Because I don't have a nice way to say what I need to say.
And Jonah's like talking about, you know, maybe that's just people of a certain class, youknow, that's Western music.
And I'm like, just say white, say white.

(38:22):
Granddad is sitting here trying to defend that there's never going to be better music thanBeethoven and Mozart and trance.
And then starts to say that, I'm not the only one of this opinion.
seems like a lot of this seems to be the consensus.
And Jonah is trying to explain to him the importance of.

(38:42):
Incorporating other cultures and then granddad just doubles down and doubles down.
He's like, well, when other cultures get a hold of Beethoven, they start going the samedirection.
And I'm like,
He thinks that white people invented harmonizing, for one.
Well, there's a theory Beethoven was black, so...
You might want to tell them about that.

(39:02):
And then see what happens.
Because there's a lot of these people, yeah...
There was also this thing in, there was this thing in the Hamilton book where they said,like, Lin-Anne-Mell Miranda does the same thing that Shakespeare does, which is take the
English language and elevate it by setting it to verse.
There's also rumor Shakespeare was a woman.

(39:23):
But anyway, but like, this idea that you can't improve,
and by the way, I was gonna say this anti-identity I feel like is in Christianity wherepeople are like, I don't kill, cheat, steal or lie because I don't wanna go to hell.
And I'm like, I just don't do it cause I wanna be on the right side of history.

(39:46):
know, like I wanna be a good person.
Like.
thing to do.
Because yeah, you're relying on like that the whole rules, the whole game of the game oflife, which why people came in and were like, Hey, guess what?
This is a game.
I didn't realize that, but they say, it is.

(40:06):
you know, in college, I was in Germany studying empire.
And I remember being like, there's this sort of triangle that says nobody stays on topforever, right?
Like you have to spread yourself so thin and then someone else can kind of grow bigger andtake over.

(40:27):
And I'm also studying democracy and governance.
I'm learning all this stuff for the first time in Germany because I'm an exchange studentand back home I studied literature.
And I just remember right then just being like, it's really conceited that as Americans wethink democracy is the end all be all and America is the end all be all and it's not,

(40:51):
cannot improve on things.
Right.
You know, and then I go into like the military and I ended up becoming one of these womenon a combat team.
like, what the idea we've been operating the United States military from that they'retrying to go back to now is like, no one can improve on men doing combat.

(41:11):
And they feel like it's like white men.
And I'm interested to see what happens now because like for for 200 years, like they hadto keep
black men out of the military so that they could say they can't do it.
And then they had to keep women and gay people out so they could say they can't do it, itcan't be done.

(41:33):
But like, now it's all been done.
And now they're trying to go back to like, like the Secretary of Defense just said thatour the stupidest phrase in our military history is our diversity is our strength.
And he says, you know, I think our unity is our strength.

(41:54):
Just like consensus.
Y'all just made that up.
Don't speak for me.
In public opinion, consensus has never considered people who don't agree.
Literally, our whole makeup is you agree with what we say you agree with.
If you don't like it, go back to where you came from.
Literally, what?

(42:15):
The worst, they said, don't say, no critiquing us is allowed is the craziest thing.
The whole phrase of, you don't have anything nice to say, white women, you say this to,you teach this to your daughters.
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

(42:37):
And that is a value system somehow.
That is the showing a good child is one you don't see or hear much of.
A good day is.
doesn't happen for good people actually.
Good people are not allowed to have good days.
You're supposed to go like, I work so hard for someone else and I'm just doing for othersuntil I am fulfilled that way.

(43:02):
No, no.
And there's something about like when you pay attention, I think there's, it's interestingverbiage we have there.
Paying attention, but you're not supposed to want attention, you know.
but you're supposed to pay a lot of attention.
But I do want us to remember that like white women specifically, when you're listening tostories or listening to people share that you may be paying attention, but your attention

(43:28):
doesn't pay.
So like that other person isn't being rewarded by you are listening to them.
Cause you know, men have people see it here, but like, think when you had said you madethe decision to believe black women, you know, to the, like that is the most important
part of
being in a community because it starts, like, I'm able to have these conversations withyou and feel like I could just say whatever, show up, don't, you you're gonna say, I'm not

(43:58):
worried about it because you're not gonna do the aura thing that white people tend to do,which was agree, understand, relate, or approve.
Like, they listen to see like, so now that I'm paying attention, I'm gonna tell you what Ithink about that thing.
Nope.
Because you, it's not about that.

(44:19):
I'm sharing with you because I want you to benefit from hearing the thing I said, not foryou to then volley back at me.
Now in this setting, obviously relating is different because we are trying to relate in away, but you can't force that, you know?
laughing because like graduate school was problematic because everyone thought they neededto speak up and be like, I agree, I had this experiment.

(44:47):
And in almost every class, someone would have to be like, hey, can we let the professortalk?
Like we're all here to learn.
from the professor where someone actually literally calculated we're paying $300 a minute.
So unless the thing you have to add is worth $300, please don't interrupt.

(45:10):
And it's because we're paying maybe because grad school was where I thought the most.
I couldn't believe the amount of men speaking, just thoughts, just saying things.
I couldn't, I'm paying for this class.
And I'm entitled because I'm paying to listen and not have to talk to you.

(45:30):
But people don't think about that.
They're like, well, I paid for this class.
now, you know, it's like something where I am going to engage with you as an equalprofessor.
We're not.
It's like, but it's like, I think one of the strengths of graduate school is you have somuch cool experience in the room and blah, blah, blah and stuff.
But if they were speaking to share like a relevant thing, but it's so much, what did yousay?

(45:55):
Just like, yep, I heard, understood.
Like literally, I agree with this.
Let me tell a story.
Yeah, I agree with this, let me tell a story.
And my other.
least favorite one is like when people do like a question that's so specific that it can'thelp the rest of the group and it's just like really

(46:19):
Kind of like the bean soup thing I think I heard come up where someone was like, this ishow you make bean soup.
And then someone was like, but what if you're allergic to beans?
Don't make bean soup.
So that's the other, the relate thing or like all the preambles that white women do.
it's, know, when I talk about the narcissist system, I realized that like, you know, we'reall gaslit by it.

(46:41):
We're, I, what did I write?
Gaslight gatekeep goalpost because there's like this goalpost that's always moving.
I know it's a girl boss, but like.
that there's a lot of preamble in, in whiteness.
This is why I am qualified to speak on this matter, right?
I spent this many years doing this, this is the, and here are my thoughts on this thing.

(47:05):
How about you just say what you got to say.
It'll show in the conversation.
Otherwise, I don't really care.
Like maybe I care, but you're not.
Yeah.
Just say what you got to say and I'll interact with that.
And maybe.
But this whole introductory agenda to yourself is like, I don't, this is all just, youknow, maybe tone setting, actually.

(47:30):
Like it's not tone policing.
It's like, I need you to understand where I'm coming from before I say the thing so thatthis way you have the proper amount of respect.
I already respected you.
And actually now I don't think you respect me that much because you're explaining whathumans do.
I don't know.
That's just when you're in community, people will tell you, hey, shh, we're listening tothe professor, thanks.

(47:56):
But in a group, you you keep it calm and do weird like looks at everybody else and we'reall miserable.
I don't know.
But I really did not enjoy that part of graduate school.
But I do think entitlement.

(48:16):
is one of those things Americans are going to have to work on too, because we love a goodentitle.
Well, white Americans, because like the whole Karen thing, that comes from somewhere,right?
I think it's a corruption of natural consequences, which is, you know, the whole law andorder and police and assigning people to certain jobs and other people not.

(48:38):
And so now you tattle, you're tattling into your 60s and you're like, I'm going to call.
You're already, you clearly haven't had enough consequences in life where someone's gone,I don't care.
Or just like, do it, do it.
Or maybe you got slapped once.

(48:59):
You know, I don't think violence is the answer, but I consequences will teach youconsequences shape behavior.
That's what Dr.
Romney says.
Well, and this is, I mean, what I think about when people say like cancel culture andlike, no, you've just been introduced to consequences for like the first time.
And like, if somebody does something wrong, they're gonna like, what?

(49:25):
This whole line of reasoning of like, cause now I have, know, like,
colleagues of mine that I used to respect when I served with them in the military andthey're like defending, going back on DEI and all this stuff.
Like it was getting too political.
now you can just say whatever.
Like I was never worried.

(49:46):
I was never worried about myself.
I was never worried about my husband.
Like saying something and getting accused of being sexist or racist because like,
It doesn't just happen to people.
politicians that go on the news after saying the N-word and they're like, I'm sorry, I wasreally drunk.

(50:06):
girl, I, when we were celebrating the NSC championship, like neither of us really rememberthe next day.
We were in a very mixed race community.
And you know what I am absolutely sure did not slip out of my mouth?
Like this word that I never use.

(50:27):
Right?
Like, if you're basically respectful to people, you're not gonna get cancelled.
Right.
And cancel doesn't real like even if it did, you, I'm not saying you would.
I, even if for some reason you are that person and you just go out and, and, and, and,still, I gotta tell you, not much would happen to you.
You'd lose followers.
You'd gain followers.

(50:48):
That's upsetting.
like actually even if those things that they fear the most aren't real things.
Those, you know, like what, what are your actual fears that people will be able to click?
to Google you and find out you said things that hurt people.
So what a, so that's, I'm supposed to feel bad for you now.

(51:12):
Your life is ruined.
You're still living.
You're still alive.
You still have the pains.
You feel like a victim of your own.
That's the entitlement to a clean reputation because you don't feel like a bad guy.
Imagine being black.
Wait, we, you,

(51:33):
earning a reputation, like we don't get to earn a negative reaction from people.
It's absurd.
that I'd be lucky to fear that, like as my risk.
Because people have said things about me.
They've called me anti things.

(51:54):
I've been called a bunch.
Right now people call me abusive and manipulative.
And they say the terrible things white people would be.
freaking out if someone said this stuff about them.
But I have community and they know the truth.
I try to explain to people like when you're not a cult leader, you don't have to defendthat you're not a cult leader.
When you're not a cult, you don't have to defend that you're not a cult leader.

(52:16):
They're like, anyone would be upset if, and I'm like, no, no.
The same way, like if someone rolled up and called me a criminal, I would not think that Ihave to go down to the courthouse and like tell everyone that I'm not a criminal.
Like, I'm just like.
but that's where you get, that's where, that's the narcissism.

(52:36):
I think Jade is the acronym that I saw in Dr.
Romney's book.
Don't, justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining.
None of that, because now you're just, you know, in the chapter I'm working on with foryou, it was like the house always wins.
The second you start engaging in proving your own personhood, now you're up there, theyget to say, hmm, they get to do that aura.

(52:59):
They agree, approve, but I don't know.
I wouldn't, I don't, I don't listen to those people.
You know, they're not trying to convince anybody, but it is, especially for white people,it is hard for y'all to hear something that you don't agree with about yourself.
And the amount of like, but sometimes it's true.

(53:19):
Sometimes it's true for y'all.
I say, Hey, this is based in anti-blackness and you go, you don't know about me and what Ido and at home and okay.
Yeah.
Nope.
I don't disagree with my own opinion though.
You know, like that's, it's accepting, believing, considering.
So even when people call me all that stuff, instead of agreeing or understanding, I justgo, okay.

(53:43):
So now what?
You came to my page to tell me all that.
They don't know what to do.
I've started this thing with like the, you my antagonists are mostly white bros, right?
And so I've started this thing with them where I'm just like, hey, you know, your commentgives me as much money as the nice ones, right?

(54:05):
And then I just don't engage in the proving of myself.
Like I'm not, or,
You know, one of my favorites was when I started on as a content creator and other femmecontent creators like pulled me aside and they were like, don't do citations.
Like, if you know, right, like if I'm talking about Cass Isabel Wilkerson, I know book I'mtalking about and I'm gonna give you the citation.

(54:32):
But if I'm like, there was this study we discussed in graduate school, like a common wayof trolling women is being like, where's the citation?
Where's the citation?
Where's the citation?
And
OMG, when I sit my white husband down in my life to talk to people about aviation stuff,and I was the other half of aviation, right?

(54:55):
I was the bad guy, he was the good guy, and nobody questions him at all.
It's just quiet.
Yeah.
are just automatically believed.
And I think that's that believability that goes down.
And as you are less believable to this person, the more they're going to think thatthey're giving you so much by paying attention and then agreeing, understanding, relating,

(55:19):
or approving.
and I also think this, I'm sure there's a white woman equivalent for this, like, you know,for my good guy followers out there, it's like, when someone tells you you're
mansplaining, listen to them, right?
Like, we know it, because it happens to us.
You don't know it, because you've been doing it your whole life.

(55:40):
And like that system, right?
Mm-hmm.
talked about this, like, you know when people say they're black, but they're not black,like in your comments, you know?
It's like, yeah, you're giving it away.
Like if I said something that was rooted in anti-blackness, I probably wouldn't know that,but you would know it.
You've heard it before, probably.

(56:00):
And so when I'm telling you, it's not for you to agree, but the narcissist will say, well,see, no, because you haven't proved to me that that was anti-blackness.
It's like, well, I wasn't trying to.
I just told you, if you don't believe, I'm the source material.
But when I talked about John Brown, not the, or I challenged the amazingness that was JohnBrown, the abolitionist and said, Hey, if he had actually like listened.

(56:28):
I said included, which was the mistake, because white people were like, you said he didinclude five black people.
And I meant included as in considered.
And like Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass, when they said, hey, you're going into asuicide mission.
And he was like, you don't know anything.
And went anyway.
So I'm saying, imagine had he listened, included, right?

(56:51):
And not thought black people were a little too childlike to run themselves.
I'm tell you, once he got rid of slavery, he was going to lead them in churches and blackpeople still to be in the back.
So anyway, and I was lucky enough, I have community on here on TikTok where people aregoing, sources, citation, where did you get this opinion?

(57:13):
Right.
I had to source my opinion for these white men because there's a whole cult of John Brownand John, there's museums and all that stuff.
I did not know.
and
because I have community, I didn't get any sources.
just, I know what happened.
Well, one genealogist who was my friend on here said, I got it and tagged and said,actually, if you look here, here, here, here, here, he was sued by this many times for

(57:38):
this much fraud and he did all of this.
I didn't have to do anything because my opinion was based in my own opinion.
It's 2023, I think at that time.
And white people were questioning me on my opinions.
So I don't think John Brown solved it.
I don't think racism was solved by John Brown.
That's enough information for me.

(57:59):
You don't believe me an existing living black woman.
And you're going to say, well, Harriet Tubman said some nice things in her book.
but you're not listening to me today.
So, you know, weaponized Harriet Tubman against me, white person in the name of JohnBrown.
I'm going to say the facts are not proving I should change my mind.

(58:22):
but to ask me for sources, for credentials on having my own plots and feelings about adead white man from the 1800s, maybe not being the hero.
I'm the problem.
I was, they were mad.

(58:42):
mean, they were professors, white people.
No, teach this stuff.
Okay, well I'm black.
So, but arguing with me in the name of John Brown is really hard for my brain to process.
Because.

(59:03):
with your whole chest calling me all types of names.
And so that's why we don't give credentials here.
Now, even, you know, once my friend gave all the documents, because he got like signaturesfrom back then, obviously they didn't have that much to say, but they throw a book, you
know, the Harriet Tubman book, not knowing that she was illiterate.

(59:27):
You know, we talked about publishing and of course, she said a nice thing about a whiteman.
Well, let me shut my hole.
TikTok page down because Harriet, know, weaponizing.
civil, well I'm gonna say civil rights leaders, because she's, you know, beyond that, butit's interesting that there's never people who are alive who can speak for themselves that

(59:53):
white people tend to look to.
it's like weaponizing someone's like rank, just use like army terms, over experience.
You know, like, it's like when people question me, who's gonna win in a debate between meor like a male general.

(01:00:17):
And I'm like, I know more about women's experience in the military.
than a male general does, even if he has 30 years of experience in the military.
Like, it's my experience, you know?
And like...
outside of your role, if that person, cause you see yourself, you are a woman first, theydon't see themselves as not a woman first.

(01:00:45):
And in order to have that, that's interesting because I think that's in whiteness, that'swhat it does to you.
It puts that thing on you.
that's basically what they're saying.
They're like, what if you, a captain, is come at by a general?
And my publishing house kind of asked me about this.
It was a good story, right?
They were just like, walk us through, you go on Fox News to debate the angry whitegeneral, right?

(01:01:13):
And what's not happening here is I'm not.
taking six and a half years of military experience to go debate 30 years.
I was like, I said to them, said, ladies, it was all ladies.
So I was like, ladies, I promise you that any man they send to debate me on this is justgonna have been briefed on these issues.

(01:01:34):
And like, look, she talks about this, she talks about this.
Like when Donald Trump went and spoke to the Association of Black Women Journalists,right?
And everyone was like, who let him do that?
Right?
So many issues.
it, is that what you're saying, right?
It's like, people are saying like, well, how dare you, like a captain think you can speakabout military experience?

(01:02:03):
And I was like,
What are you?
I'm here.
oh, oh, so are you the spokesperson for the 101st Airborne Division?
Right?
Again, roll.
And I was like, actually, yes, because I am here, a former member in the world speakingabout it.
I literally, I was like, I've written this book, I've done this, so yes.

(01:02:24):
And everyone's like, oh, I wasn't expecting you to go there.
And I was like, I mean.
the thing, you gotta say the thing they're not expecting.
They expect a defense.
They are never expecting.
I don't care.
I love giving a good, don't care.
I added a new one.
Yikes.
My friend sent it to me.
was like, Ooh, I like a good yikes.
They don't know what to do.
Or just the door or tomatoes and stuff.

(01:02:45):
Cause they, they're more, but yeah, a good like, no.
Yeah.
Can I ask a question?
No.
They never expect you to just say no.
There's, which I think is ridiculous.
white women, please don't do this.
Don't say, I ask a question?
Cause I'm going to say no.
I, that PDA just comes right out.

(01:03:06):
not.
but yeah, the, the rank and the idea that experience like experience without experiences,experiences are so much more valuable than the number of years you did something in one
category.
Right.
That's.
We need this many years of experience.

(01:03:28):
In my experience, that just gives fixed flat nothingness.
My experiences as a black Jewish woman, millennial, whatever, that gives me so much morepreparedness than I've done this one job for 30 years.

(01:03:49):
What?
Why?
That's so long.
You know what you'll love the most?
The person who has to sign off on your successful transition form that you have learnedhow to go get a job and interview and all these things is a kernel.

(01:04:09):
So is a person who has absolutely not had a job interview in 25 years or needed to go finda job.
That sounds about white.
Yup.
Yup.
To even have paperwork.
And that's why I said like Scientology is not that far off from where we end up withoutblack people on the more liberal side, just in terms of like rules.

(01:04:32):
And they got rules and processes for everything.
They got sales departments.
They got street names.
got police.
They have prisons.
They've got everything that we got.
got RFK Jr.
Do you think, see, they've got celebrities, they've got secret things and they've gotdictionaries.

(01:04:53):
What do they, what does Scientology have that America doesn't have?
It's the same thing.
I always, I like to use it just, I mean, it's silly, but it's not.
We're trying to clear the planet.
You don't even know what that is.
Right?
Also, Texas, maybe Texas, going back to that, God bless America.
What?
When did that start happening?

(01:05:15):
you know, I just figured out because you're talking about Scientology and I'm like, cultsalways promise space travel and NASA's in Texas.
yeah.
That's sign.
us you're going to clear the planet.
You don't even know what you're talking about.
And I get that, but neither do we.
That's the thing is like, we look at cult members like they're nuts, but you guys withyour Santa and your Jesus and like they got Z new.

(01:05:41):
got something else.
You know, it's, I just think, and I don't mean to belittle any of it.
I do think that we need purpose and.
It can be to just experience, to have experiences here in this life, on this earth, duringthis time.
But instead it's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:06:02):
But what if in the future, fear, you know, the future faking and the fearfulness and alsolike, but in the past, were you good?
Are you going to get caught for being bad?
What have you done?
That's all rumination and anxiety.
There is no being.
Someone asked me today, is it true that we were going to start nuking Canada?

(01:06:22):
And I was like, sit down, like sit down.
I, I.
and nukes, like what's with us and the war on peopling?
Why the war on drugs?
Also, I've been doing a little research on the industrial revolution, not that muchresearch, enough to just be like, hold on, can we have a relational revolution?

(01:06:49):
Because industrial, they just said we make people into industry, into processes.
Can we undo that?
And, and if this might, you might be doing this research for your chapter, but one of thethings that I talk about in the book is like, okay, so we got away from charismatic

(01:07:10):
leadership, right?
Like cult leadership in the 20th century.
That was one of the big wins, supposedly.
And then we started going back.
America, the whole globe, but America a lot.
And one of the arguments I'm making is like, we lived through an apocalypse.
which was the industrial age running headfirst into the information age and leavingliterally nothing untouched, right?

(01:07:36):
The internet going down prompts the world's biggest disaster and has been so since 2010when I studied it in spy school, right?
So along with that, you one of the things I say is that like we, during the industrialage, we thought that
everyone being an identical piece of a machine made the machine run the smoothest, whichmaybe was true, and that that made the best outcomes, right?

(01:08:05):
And what I have learned in the information age, what I think as society we're learning isthat, you know what, maybe everyone being a little different adds friction, friction
creates energy.
Mmm.
creates a whole different outcome, right?
We go further or maybe going further wasn't what we needed, you know?
And there's so much of this in like the combat space, right?

(01:08:29):
Again, of just like presupposing, like even, you know, when people are like, what aboutthey're gonna put a draft on women?
And it's one of these like, you don't realize how misogynist this is because you're onlysaying this because you think women are somehow less good at like the job of war.
Right?
Not because we've been held out of it or any of this, but just naturally less good at it.

(01:08:53):
And, you know, what we have realized is like, obviously, diversity is better, right?
Like, literally, from an intelligence perspective, having more points of view helps youout.
Right?
Like, it's so simple, but like, we still haven't...

(01:09:18):
You know, first of all, think any time like a system ends suddenly, like tons of peoplejust die and others fall into oppression.
And there's a lot of this being sorted out in our world right now.
But I think this goes very hand in hand with the relational revolution that you're talkingabout, you know, because like, for one thing is I'm just like the gig economy could be so

(01:09:42):
amazing if we didn't screw it up with capitalism.
You know, like I would love nothing more than to just do my job and my hobbies and likepay someone in the community who went grocery shopping for me and pay someone else who
bought a gas truck and just came and filled up our trucks and like pay someone who livesin the community and we respect to collect the garbage, right?

(01:10:04):
And like every position is respected and everyone's doing only what they like their job,what they contribute and then the things that they like.
You know, even to the point when people are like, the robots are going to take over andthey're going to pay us stipends just for living.
I'm like, that sounds pretty nice.
Like, we could just do art and hang out.

(01:10:29):
But you have to be seeking something or else who knows what people, there's this thingthat we think we need law and order, because otherwise it'll be chaos.
Have you seen outside?
Law and order, that's rules and obedience.
it's this thing of like, you know, cold cultures look down on warm cultures and see themas backward, but then like, they're, you know, like, Brazilians can't keep time, blah,

(01:10:57):
blah, blah.
This is like, they're laying on the beach.
Like, that's what you do for vacation, right?
Like, they're living your vacation.
And you're saying that like their life sucks more than yours.
They're lazy because they don't sacrifice their entire lives for some greater good.

(01:11:17):
A corporation, I remember asking, I was like, what's a corporation?
The corporation comes from a body, right?
So that's the whole Latin or whatever is a body.
So we went from a plantations where it's all about the plants, And we're sourcing thoseand then corporations.
So we just like created a body of business.

(01:11:39):
And everybody must work to further that business.
Big tobacco is still a corporation industry and business.
Do we need those?
What's a good job?
What's a good industry?
What's a good economy mean for people?
Asking ourselves that like, if everyone just had a a livable, whatever, there wasn't acost of living.

(01:12:05):
You didn't have to earn a living.
Make
a living, you just lived, you would end up making stuff.
we have this whole thing.
I've been also working on like the myth of making money, just like we discovered America.
don't make, none of us are allowed to make money actually.
They told us that's illegal.
You can't make, you can only take.

(01:12:29):
You're literally not allowed to make money.
You can only take it from someone else.
That's...
Discovering Land.
And this is how getting a graduate degree in organizational psychology radicalized me.
Because I'm just looking around and I'm like, I show up as an expert in bad groups andnobody wants to hear that.

(01:12:53):
But then they're all just assuming that these corporations that you're gonna go work forare the good guys.
And the whole situation we are in right now, we're a non-elected person.
has their hands all over our government is because we've been like, yeah, if you're makingmoney, you're the good guys.

(01:13:15):
We're a corporation nation.
Not a company town, because I realized like, because company towns are one thing.
We're just the biggest, we're a corporation nation.
We are one thing under dollar, you know.
was a good essay I read once that said the only thing that ties culture together betweenstates.

(01:13:36):
So you think about New York and Alabama, the billboards along the freeway, all the market,all of the chain restaurants, blah, zee, blah, right?
Like, and even that, right?
Like if you don't have Whataburger Texas, right?
Like who are you, right?
Like we don't even, oh.

(01:13:59):
it- wuhhh
I have a whole rant about how fast food culture killed real fast food culture that you canfind everywhere else in the world.
You can just stop on the side of the road and get something fresh made for you that'sdelicious.
So in Germany, that's a deli.

(01:14:19):
You can stop and get a delicious sandwich anywhere.
In the US, you have Subway, which is disgusting.
Ugh, I got a virus after one.
have never been able to go back again.
It's like a specific smell of a subway and I can't do it.
But that's interesting because...
was formed after European, an American going to Europe and experienced the European coffeeshop, which is a third space where people can just hang out and drink coffee and talk to

(01:14:50):
other people.
And he came back and he revolutionized America by building it.
And then I find it so ironic when like, well, like when I was studying in Germany, theywere all excited to get a Starbucks.
And I was like, what?
You
you have the real European coffee shops or like it used to be fun because I used to get tomake fun of Americans for being like, what was Mexico like?

(01:15:14):
Did you have Taco Bell on every corner?
And I could be like, no, you idiots.
But then they went and put Taco Bell franchises in Mexico.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
like, it's like we like, and by the way, my God, this is gonna work great.
This is gonna be so brilliant, right?
Because cults always love cartoons and caricatures.

(01:15:35):
And I feel like fast food and chain company culture is just like a caricature of the realthing.
And it's like cartoonized and you know, whatever.
And it's just like, that's like, that's actually one of the hardest things for me aboutAmerica.
Whereas I'm like, yeah, we like.
We have all these things from other cultures, but we've kind of like cartoonized them upand like, you know, like Tex-Mex or Taco Bell, right?

(01:16:03):
Like it's not...
make it better.
Put more cheese on it or something.
Yeah.
It's like queso is not Mexican, right?
Queso is American.
Like in Mexico, you get a pan of melted cheese that you pick up and put on your taco andlike it's delicious.

(01:16:28):
And then like queso was created and then it became, and it's amazing.
mean, know, queso is amazing, but it's not right exactly.
But now this is like what we think of as.
as this, you know, going back to the sort of American exceptionalism.
Like we, the branding.

(01:16:49):
Cause also branding, when I hear the word, you know, there's a physical branding.
We do that, have done that.
And that's, I don't, that's not happenstance.
So that's also the word for turning yourself into a commodity to be sold as a product, acorporation.
You were a person.

(01:17:09):
Now, now I made myself an LLC and now I'm a brand.
And now I'm for sale.
Interesting.
I hate it.
why the bros and the Karens like get so pissed off by you and that, because they'll belike, well, this is your job.

(01:17:29):
And I'll just be like, you don't pay me.
you don't get like, like, just because I decided, right, to like exploit my own stories orbrand myself, right, or turn myself into a, you know what?
I've also burnt myself with a cigarette on purpose, but if you do it to me, that's reallyabusive.

(01:17:51):
And just being like, no, you don't get to exploit me.
You don't get to demand my time.
I love to just be like, no, you can't demand things from me for my free content.
Can you tell us like, oh, and you know, I am since I feel weird about jobs at all.

(01:18:16):
So of course I made an acronym out of it.
Justifiable Oppressive Behavior.
Because you're on a job.
So people are like, do you have a job?
Do you do work a job?
What is your job?
What's your job?
Right.
And the way we use it is who is oppressing you?
Like someone must be.

(01:18:37):
but it's okay because it's for work, it's justifiable.
It's, you know, it's within the name.
We are allowed to treat you as a lesser person because you are working this job.
And I don't...
But that's how it's all started.
Aren't you supposed to be grateful for this job?

(01:18:57):
Like, because working is something else.
I work all the time.
I'm always working on something.
I'm thinking about something.
But having a job is something under someone.
Someone is in...
deploying you to something.
And it'll.
as stable and credible and it's so funny because everyone is finding out now that maybethat's not true.

(01:19:25):
Something about government officials getting fired, which are supposedly the most stablejobs you can have.
Gaslighting?
Yeah, they said, just do this.
We'll never, we'll never, all you gotta do is, and that wasn't true.
So now we need more, I've been thinking about security in that way.
It's like more self-security instead of job security and more self-security thanself-sufficiency because sufficient?

(01:19:53):
Am I sufficient?
You really just have to think like, that's a terrible goal.
What you really mean is like,
Do you do everything without needing any help ever, ever?
That's not true.
I don't think that's a goal.
And that wouldn't be sufficient.
I don't want to live a sufficient, whatever that is, know, satisfactory.
I'd rather be secure in myself and know, no, I can ask my friend for help because shelikes to help me with this specific thing.

(01:20:19):
Like you said, it shouldn't be self-sufficient in that you run your own castle and younever need staff.
Well, if you have a castle, you should have staff.
Maybe you don't have a castle.
but still you need a village.
You don't have to do everything yourself.
You know, and I can't, this has just been something in my head for so long and like oneday maybe I'm gonna write this as a book, but like the way that like the women, the

(01:20:47):
mistresses of the plantation were not happy, were.
in an abuse of patriarchy were themselves pretty much also slave labor, not chattelslavery, of course, but like slave labor to this system were only there for breeding and
for working.
And like how much they could have benefited from the community of, you know, and it's solike.

(01:21:17):
notwithstanding that I am literally the color of translucent ice, right?
It's just like the icy version of like the white woman alone in her castle where it'sfreezing cold because it's a freaking castle versus all of the black women in the huts
together, singing together, chanting together, having community, right?

(01:21:40):
And it's like, and now I'm experiencing this here where like we're still in the
Capital capitalism version of that, you know, like I don't like cooking It's not my thing.
We have the local watering hole But like the choices is like be fiscally smart and cook byyourself in your little castle and be all alone Or like go out and have community, but now

(01:22:07):
you're dropping a hundred bucks every night, right?
Like these are not sustainable But like we need we need better options and we don't forthe most part
Well, like, and there was physical removal from that, you know, in creating suburbs andlimiting these third spaces where you could just bring one thing, bring the water, and

(01:22:29):
someone else brings the chicken, and someone else brings rice, you know, or something likethat, you know, freezing a bunch of stuff or anything like that.
You know, that was done purposely to isolate you and make you feel like, no one else isdoing it for you, so you shouldn't do it for anybody or...
Yeah.
snow blower and pool, right?
Like, does each house need that?

(01:22:50):
and what's important about this is like, this is how cults actually work, right?
Isolation is so fricking terrible.
Loneliness is so terrible.
like women, know, specifically women in communities.
And it was a black man who pointed this out that like women are always second classcitizens in these cults.

(01:23:13):
Ted Patrick, right?
He's like, he's, I've never seen one where women aren't a servant class.
Mm.
because we're also that in America, but alone in our little castles, doing it on a communeis really nice.
know, like every time I'm at like the Girl Scouts camp out and the parents are talkingabout how nice it is to have exactly that, right?

(01:23:37):
Like Daniela's husband is great at grilling and camping coffee and someone else's husbandknows how to do this.
It's really just all my husband.
But like,
thing.
like, yeah, but like the children are free ranging and I keep saying this to people.
I'm like in getting to know your community, know who the survivors of extreme religion areand know who the veterans are, right?

(01:24:00):
Because we have all kinds of skills and like community skills.
And that's also true, of course, of black people, but you all have never, I think, lostthe community in the same way that white people have.
can, you get it or you don't get it.
Like there's a lot more instinctual trust when you haven't lost, like we haven'tdehumanized, well, black women specifically, like haven't dehumanized or been able to

(01:24:23):
dehumanize ourselves as much as, you know, a white woman will do that because also you'reisolated and you're being threatened with isolation.
And so you are like, for fear of doing like, how could it be worse?
They're threatening me.
Like I have everything right now.
I am privileged.
That's why I don't like the privilege thing.
You are in this castle.
You get to live in this big, cold, lonely castle.

(01:24:46):
You're so privileged that you don't have to take care of anything yourself and you don'tfeel like you can do anything.
you're so privileged, but it's not, it's not fulfilling.
we were moving, we were buying a house, I had a very good tech job, my husband's amilitary pilot, right?
And he was like, oh, we're gonna get a five bedroom house.

(01:25:07):
I just looked at him and I was like, bro, who is cleaning up?
That was exactly what I said.
I was like, what in the world?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I think this is a good place to wrap up for today.
Amazing.
Thank you so much.

(01:25:28):
Look, the Neons, the Neons are coming back.
The comments on the episode where we told women to just like go wear the things you can doit are very good.
I think people are like trying things, people are trying new things.
People are learning a lot from this show.

(01:25:48):
Thank you so much.
yeah, the making, that's like a lot of that too, right?
Like making a statement.
You can't make money.
Okay, so stop trying.
You're not allowed, but you can make clothes.
And I think that's why they don't associate knitting and crocheting with like male gazeand sexiness.
Cause we're actually making something for the first time and they don't know how to dothat.

(01:26:09):
They just.
Ha ha ha ha.
busted down.
I'm working on it, but that makes me, it's like, that's empowering.
That's encouraging.
So I love hearing that.
Thank you all so much for listening.
Please like and subscribe to the channel.
Please go follow Rebecca on her Patreon.
Stay tuned for the super amazing chapter that she's contributing on groups versuscommunity to the culting of America.

(01:26:38):
And of course, listen to Uncultured.
It's now on the subscription side of Spotify.
So you can just listen to it for free and I still get paid.
Speaking of systems, yeah, definitely.
Girl, I would have sent you the audio.
All right, thanks so much everybody.
Thanks.