Episode 28 | Appropriation or Appropriate - Hey White Women

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And this is where they try to rig the game, but you can't fake influence kind of you seehappen where we can see a person who not even appreciates the culture, but it's like, is

(00:14):
appropriate.
Like she is what we're calling a ghetto black girl.
know, Danielle, they cash me outside.
Right.
She has always been rapping and acting like this.
And it's part of the culture she grew up in.

(00:36):
I feel like this is kind of how the gig economy could work a little bit outside ofcapitalism, where individuals provide services and other individuals contract them.
Well, commerce makes sense alone, right?
With moral neutrality, like a lot of things we do would work.

(00:58):
Even having money, I guess.
The money wouldn't necessarily be required.
Like I'm realizing men made money and religion and stuff because they couldn't make lifeand they didn't want to make a house anymore.

(01:18):
So they just made other things you can be, you can use to get those things.
But they're manufactured value systems, like without someone else agreeing that they'regood.
They're not.
So a gig economy makes sense.
but we still believe in like the economy, like the one, first, capitalism includes humancapital still.

(01:48):
And it was also like a male and of course a white male decision to not count unpaid labor,women's, mostly women's labor in the GDP.
And if you count women's labor in the GDP, like everything changes.

(02:09):
Right.
Because that's like, you know, there there's a whole connection to what is valuable andthat is fake.
That's made up.
It's a, they want to play a game.
And I realized when I was talking to my friend yesterday, the game is just bad, but it'sgood for them.
They want to play a game called slave and they are, they get to play, they get to decidethe rules and who gets to be what.

(02:31):
And they tend to never be the role slave, but there there's all these other thingsinvolved, but like.
Then they say, okay, this game, no one wants to play it if it's called this, so let'screate something else.
And like this game of economy and monopoly and all that stuff.
Whereas if you just erase the concept of like cost of living, then we wouldn't be havingso many of the conversations that are being had.

(03:09):
capitalism.
I don't know if you had a tab in mind, but I realized that, so we talked last week aboutKendrick and Drake, right?
And there was something that you said that really like has been rolling around in my head.
And that like, you can like the type of music and a culture without being that thing.

(03:30):
Right.
And there is a current beef going on that is the white ladies, Kendrick and Drake.
now they are young women, of course, because that's all you get, but bad baby versusAlabama Barker.
Right.
These are two young white women.
They have diss tracks against each other.
And I only know about it through black people talking about it.

(03:57):
catch me outside.
Yes.
She, and it's interesting watching the culture react to her, right?
The consistency, there's credibility in her consistency and an awareness that like.
You can get it so wrong, but she was young.
There is nuance allowed in community.

(04:18):
Cause I was like, black women are the ones talking about her going like, listen, wedidn't, remember she was doing a little blackfishing and she was doing all this stuff.
but her, is, she is eating this girl up.
Like there she's always been kind of good at rap at the same time.
And I think, and then there's Alabama Barker who I'm, we just finding out about.

(04:44):
That is the daughter of Travis Barker and I guess the stepdaughter of Courtney Kardashian,I believe, not really sure.
But she has been trying to make music for a long time, but she was in like a pop phase andshe was blonde and she's a nepo, right?

(05:04):
And all of a sudden started developing that she's wearing wigs and she's got lots of...
black aesthetic going on.
And now she's trying to get into a beef with cash me outside.
And this is where they try to rig the game, but you can't fake influence kind of you seehappen where we can see a person who not even appreciates the culture, but it's like, is

(05:31):
appropriate.
Like she is what we're calling a ghetto black girl.
know, Danielle, they cash me outside.
Right.
She has always been rapping and acting like this.
And it's part of the culture she grew up in.
That's her friends did that.
It makes me think of what you said last week where you were like, if you're a black personand like you grew up hearing the N word, then you're probably using it, but it's like not

(05:57):
authentic for you to really use it, because you didn't grow up in that world.
right.
So trying to like put something on, it will always show it shouldn't.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I mean, that for me really helps me understand some stuff about myself and Hispaniccultures and Latin cultures, right?

(06:20):
Because it's like, I grew up in Brazil and Mexico.
And part of even making my own clothes was like, I'm a white girl, right?
I'm Slovakian and Czech and Hungarian.
I am...
whiter than the Irish, right?
We are blue underneath our skin.
We are where the vampires come from.

(06:41):
But like, I dance competitive salsa and I cook Mexican food and Brazilian food and I wearthese colors because like, that's where I came from.
And I've never had a Latin person get upset by that, right?
I've only had policing from other white people being like, be careful about culturalappropriation.

(07:05):
And I'm like, the only thing, I never say I'm Brazilian, but I am from Brazil.
Like I did, it is part of what formed me.
And so it is natural for me to like do some of these things and wear some of these thingsand buy some of this food and stuff.
Yes, especially if the what is your other choice to just the anti identity of whiteness isto say I like country music.

(07:32):
I now pretend I like this stuff because I live here.
That's what an appropriator does.
And that's kind of the false dichotomy that I thought I was given, continuing ourconversation from last week.
It's like, I'm just dropped in at 15 years old, dropped into Texas, dropped into a 4,000student school in Houston, and with nobody to tell me what to do.

(07:57):
I I literally didn't know dress code existed.
Went to school in a skirt that was too short and caused a huge scandal.
And like, you know, so it was, it's like this messaging and my God, I can't wait to tellyou about this book that I'm reading.
But it was this messaging of like, be a good little white girl, right?

(08:19):
Be smart, be quiet and like, you'll survive.
Right, and like, survive what?
I would like us to ask those things, right?
Damsel in distress.
What was that distress?
Please explain.
Did he cause it?
Did he put her in the distress he is now gonna save her from?

(08:40):
Cause that's called white knighting.
Yep.
And even like, I really didn't embrace my like inner white girl, I think, until I starteddating this very controlling white man.
And like, when you say save from what?
Like, I've been on my own for four years.

(09:01):
I've been okay.
I've gotten myself graduated from high school and into college.
Like, I didn't need saving, but I thought I did.
You know, and that.
when I went back and I wrote UnAmerican after finding out that he was white supremacistand stuff, that was what I realized.
I was like, I saw, cause he was an ex-gay, right?
So I saw that he had done it, right?

(09:23):
That he had been like, I'm choosing to be this person who maybe isn't exactly me, but I'mdoing this because I want X, Y, Z out of life.
And I was like,
You know, I want what every cult kid wants.
Like I want a home and normal and security and like, maybe I can be, yeah, maybe I can bethis bland white girl in order to get that.

(09:48):
and that's the, the, the like golden childness of whiteness is you can achieve this thing.
Like even that you're not questioning happily ever after.
can, they're selling you fairy tales.
You're like, my God, this felt like a fairy tale.
You know, those are fake.
They made those up.

(10:08):
You're it's not real.
And when it feels like a fairy tale, red flag, red flag, those aren't like biographies.
the of the cult is always a lie, right?
And that's why we see MAGA people waking up right and left right now, because it's like,the past four years, they could be like, oh, we're gonna do this, right?
We give you all these promises.
But as soon as like you're in the cult, you know, people start waking up to the promisethat it's a lie.

(10:35):
like, you know, it's so weird to be like, and I was successful, right?
Like I was successful as a good little white girl, but like,
What might I have been?
What else might I have done?
Even bringing it back to bad baby, right?
What if coming from nowhere, I'd surrounded myself in minority communities with people oflower income, where I fit, by the way, and had discovered rap, right?

(11:09):
I think about this a lot.
I went through a decade of pain.
because they didn't know that I was allowed to be angry about like my situation in life,right?
Because you can't do that in country music, right?
It's beautiful and simple and it's three chords and the truth, but like, you gotta golisten to a Rascal Flatts song about a girl dying of cancer to cry.

(11:36):
You can't write a song that's just like, my parents screwed up my life because of Jesusand now I'm angry.
Yeah.
No.
songs like that now.
It's called deconstruction music and I love it.
Yeah, yeah, you have to choose.
You there is a side implied.

(11:57):
that was rhyming.
yeah.
even that, even that concept, right?
That I had to be either country music or rap.
Right.
And when you're not in that world, that's not your experience of it.
It's like my knowledge of Blackness and racism only comes from being around white peoplebeing weird.

(12:22):
And y'all don't know it's weird.
being mistressy?
I guess so.
I guess so.
Because we're like, what's up?
And then you're like, nothing's wrong.
I'm working through this 400 page book called White Women Get Ready, How Healing PostTraumatic Mistress Syndrome Leads to Anti-Racist Change.

(12:44):
And one of the things I made on a video today, I was like, you would love this, you'vesaid this, but she basically says, every black woman I've ever talked to has said to me,
if white women get their act together, oppression doesn't have a chance.
Right, yeah.
But when you put mistress and syndrome together, first of all, there's a little hissingsnake in there with three S's.

(13:08):
But what stands out to me is mistressy.
And I'm like, I could just see me and Rebecca being like, she's being all mistressy.
know?
Like, you're not, I was never connected to slavery, right?
My people came over around World War I time.
But like, I learned how to be all mistressy.

(13:28):
growing up as a white girl at Texas for the second part of my teens.
to, to get the ring by spring in the Mormons are trying to do, right?
Because then you get to be the like Mr.
So like, don't, you're not understanding what the rest of that is.
Like it, the language has changed.
They do a really good job of using coded language to hide the intention of the thing.

(13:54):
or just like repetitive, right?
Happily ever after, what do you mean?
And then just like, mm.
And it's just like a vibe and aura.
And if you have it, you'll get it.
but if you're only given that perspective, but what does it look like not to do that?

(14:15):
this whole thing of like, just the concept of happily ever after, right?
Like you get married and that's the end and you do it as young as possible.
And then like, it really is, it's just trapping you in the concept of being a mistress,right?
And we mean plantation mistress, not cheating on your wife mistress.

(14:40):
But like, that's what...
the trad wife thing is, right?
Like instead of there aren't other people doing the work, you're just doing all the worknow.
But it's still like creating that atmosphere.
kids, right?
You get little eight passenger situation and those kids do the work for you, whether it beby being content or because you're not allowed to own black people anymore.

(15:08):
So maybe, you know, I do think that language is interesting of like owning even now whenthey're like, I'm going to own this person.
Like the fun, the white people having fun in like crushing it.
Like it doesn't have to be that I feel like.
There's also a conversation about coaches.
And I wonder if female coaches versus male coaches tend to use like group centered, notgroup centered, but like the women can talk about how they work together.

(15:38):
Great.
And that can be motivating.
It doesn't have to be, we destroy the other terrible team.
And that's how you see moments where, you know, a woman's hijab falls off and the otherteam immediately.
gets around and protects her because they see the humanity in another person.
Like there isn't this dehumanized nature where they see, she needs protection.

(16:05):
They're protecting immediately.
And I just, have to think that there is, like I said, the difference between matriarchyand patriarchy and the mistress still exists in patriarchy.
And the only goal is to be this, so this man's moon.
like to just be circled around him in his orbit and have your own little moons.

(16:30):
Yeah, and it's such a good example of how like the pedestal is also a prison.
You know, like if you think about like everyone on this plantation, you know, I of coursemy role is the mistress and like, she's not free either.
You know?
still lives in a prison.

(16:54):
has to do everything that man says, right?
She still doesn't get paid.
There was another one, my gosh.
I'm watching the tutors again because of course I'm obsessed with Tudor England asapparently all autistic women are.
white, it's probably all white.

(17:15):
Anyways, there's this scene, right, where the king has summoned, right?
He sees this pretty girl, that's one of the maids in waiting, he nods, right?
And she's delivered to his room.
And then she's naked.
He literally has his hand around her throat and he says, do you consent?

(17:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
what is this fiction that you can consent when you're naked and the king's hand is aroundyour throat?
When you release your autonomy to the rules and language and words, like I was thinkingabout the concept of a safe word, the word isn't the weighted thing.

(18:03):
It's the behavior.
It's the trust between the two people that the word will have weight.
And if it's just a word, you know, it's like a contract.
I don't know.
Like the contract is only supposed to do so much.
The relationship is the thing we're supposed to be talking about.
Yeah, and we talk about this all the time in the sexual trauma survivor world of there'sthe times you were forced, but then there's also the times that you said yes, because if

(18:33):
you said no, it might become rape.
And I, when I was writing my second memoir, I realized there was this one guy,incidentally a black man, maybe that's significant.
who when I was 26 years old, that was the first time I felt comfortable enough to say noto sex.

(18:57):
And I had always just looked at this as a relationship that went bad, he's just anotherex, but it was like when I was writing that, I was like, huh.
He gets some credit for me knowing, building a relationship where I knew.
I could say yes.
And like we were traveling, we continued to share a bed for two weeks together.

(19:18):
I mean, it was, I was safe.
It wasn't comfortable.
It wasn't easy, but it was, you I was allowed to say no and it was safe.
Yeah, but you think about also the underlying stuff there, right?
Like it's, you know, what are the consequences and safety for him?
And also what's, you know, in the back of your mind, do you feel safer already based in acertain power awareness subconsciously that you can assert yourself in that way?

(19:49):
It's just, you know, it's just more information.
Yeah.
So this is true in my marriage now is that I outranked my husband in a formal way in themilitary, right?
Literally had to call me ma'am.
Sometimes he still does.
And because of that, we know that we negotiated our relationship more.

(20:13):
We negotiated our equality.
I negotiated for my equality to be recognized in the relationship.
And I had never done that when I was dating men who were the same rank as me or higherranking as me.
And so that is another interesting dynamic.
Like this man outranked me, but he was a black man, I was a white woman.

(20:34):
That does make me safer already in the world.
Like subconsciously, I know that.
Yeah, because it's like we have to consider all the information just for learningexperiences.
That's the best you're going to get in terms of like source material is your own life andlooking back at it and going, hmm, I wonder, just let me add a layer in of awareness so

(21:01):
that way, that's conversations worth having.
That's really interesting because that's
I don't know why people get caught in the shame spiral and whether that's just becauseI've been doing some kind of deconstruction work for so long or just because of the narrow
divergence, but it's just like, it's the same as being like, was 26 years old, right?

(21:29):
Of course I did silly things, you know?
And now,
As a 37 year old, it doesn't make sense for me to just like insist I knew everything then,right?
But I don't get it, you know?
Like I get the cringe factor.
I just don't get the willing, like you said, like the best way to learn is your ownexperience.

(21:53):
You know, I heard someone once was a veteran who once described in their book doing PTSDtherapy.
like getting a master's degree in your own brain.
Hmm.
that's how I feel when I found out that I was neurodivergent.
Now I just understand my own brain better.
And that's how I feel with these conversations.

(22:14):
It's like, it just.
insight, but that's why I talk about it like the cult, because it doesn't make sense tonot accept this information unless you are conditioned to not hear our voices.
So that's the other thing is like, I think there's an element of.

(22:35):
desensitization that happens to the literal sound of black voices.
Because we think about how we talk about the British, well, we used to more Britishaccents.
We're like, that sounds so smart.
That sounds so fancy.
Blah, blah, blah.
Like we believe that more.
That's more honest.
That's fake.

(22:56):
That's not real.
But so is the literal inverse of that is how you don't hear black women.
Because everyone's kind of like, what do we do?
What do we do?
Literally?
Black women have been speaking.
It's not that you don't know for lack of hearing it or you're not listening.
But I feel like there's something that happens when it's like when you hear the sound,shut your brain down.

(23:19):
Like, wah, wah, wah, wah.
studied this in a different context, but I studied this when I was gonna raise my child inseveral languages.
And there are hierarchies, two languages, just like we put people in hierarchies all thetime, right?
So for example, I'm speaking to my daughter in Portuguese.

(23:44):
Not one person ever was like,
is that Portuguese, it was always, that French?
Which more easy to assume it's Spanish, but they look at me and this little three-year-oldblonde girl and they go, French.

(24:04):
Because French is a very high status language.
German, I have a friend like you, black dad, white mom, who's an officer in the army, shespeaks fluent German, because her mom is German.
and the way people just flip over themselves when they see like a light-skinned blackwoman speaking German, right?

(24:27):
Because that again is a high status language.
But then, you know, so even, and it's so funny even with these three, right?
So we see French as high status, we see Portuguese, Brazilian as sexy, anything Brazilianis sexy, and then we see Spanish as low class.

(24:48):
And I think accents and then black women's accents or voices would totally fall into thiskind of concept of a hierarchy.
Absolutely.
And I talk in the chapter a little bit about like AAVE and slang and whatever.
It's never needed a dictionary to be useful and share information and be like dynamic.

(25:13):
it's actually, white people can understand what we're saying, but not necessarily use it.
It's so community-based and community-focused that, but it's inferior just because it'sinferior.
just the sound of it means,
that they are saying something stupid, lazy, aggressive, blah, blah, blah, blah, just atour voices.

(25:36):
I had this very interesting learning moment in college where I, of course, as a child withno education, right, I was like, you have to be perfect, have to be grammar Nazi, have to
blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
And then I was taking a linguistics class in college and I found out that the word askused to be said, ax, right?

(26:00):
That's actually what it was.
And then,
it evolved and then it got into the dictionary, right, and then it became a class thingand then it became an African American thing.
And like, the way that just broke, that broke my brain forever, right?
Because I was like, as soon as you find that out, you realize that you have been thinkinga certain thing about people who say axe.

(26:28):
seem like a kind of a tip of an avalanche if you want to go there, right?
If you want to let yourself realize like, and like think about how stigmatized sayingaccess when that's actually easier, makes more sense.
And we get, and, I think I love when, I don't know if I've said it here, like the grammarNazi versus a word nerd.

(26:53):
I find myself to be a word nerd.
love it
not a grammar Nazi, because I don't care what you do, you know, but I like to play withthe words and that's language and look, and take from this and take from that.
And also something to think about with the happily ever after and the romance, right?
I was sitting here thinking I want people to stop romanticizing.

(27:14):
And then I'm like, wait, romanticizing?
Roman empires?
Rome?
Is this all based in just Roman-ness?
and manipulation of white people because those are the romance languages, white people andthey're Italian, they're Spanish, all the romance languages are over there.
And that's also where the people who don't wash are.
I just get so mad now when I think about this, how it sneaks its way in romance as aconcept of like really, a whole focus of an entire woman's life, the fairy tale that a man

(27:49):
could just come in and be like, what do I have to do?
it's in the books.
All right, cool.
Let me just do that.
And then she'll be like, it's a trap.
It's a trap.
And the Roman, Roman Empire, if you want to talk about Roman empires, this is mine.
Stop it.
Romanticizing the Roman Empire.

(28:10):
Even that is such a man thing.
They're like, that's the coolest time.
You don't even know what it was.
And it fell.
So like, I don't understand.
So, you know, that's my little thing about that.
I do have to say to all my Brazilians, we know you take three showers a day.
We know.
Okay.

(28:30):
yeah, listen, there is a, I am talking white Americans, white Americans specific andEuropeans.
I'm actually, I'm mostly talking about Europeans.
but going back to what you're saying about like it fell, right?
This is what I think is so funny.
Like we are watching right now, I think the dying gasps of patriarchy, you know, and Ilook at this as a military threat analyst, right?

(28:57):
Like nobody is this angry and afraid when they're winning.
Wait, why are you?
they're afraid.
But I think the thing that men don't understand, because all they do is like go throughhistory and study other men, is like, y'all make the exact same mistakes.
Y'all fail in the exact same ways.

(29:20):
They were using sewing to beat you in the Underground Railway, just like they were usingknitting to beat you during World War II, just like where, you know, like.
and just the commitment to underestimating.
But I think, again, like, they're models, right?
Because we don't have matriarchal models.

(29:43):
Like, their models are broken.
And a big thing, when you leave a cult, this is my third phase, after you deconstruct,then you have to move forward with new models or no models, right?
Because we don't.
Yeah.
Or models you don't, yeah.

(30:03):
Or models you don't fully understand yet or agree with.
And that's why I was talking about the aura.
You don't have to, there doesn't, there's enough vibe about it that you're going to get.
You just have to believe in yourself and realize other people did all this other stuff.
And for you to just sit back and be like, you know, it's going to collapse anyway.
So like, what are you doing about it?

(30:25):
And that's how I started to feel like,
Hopefully one day money doesn't work.
I'm going to get ahead.
I want to focus on that type of thing.
And while it does, what do we do?
And, just not investing your life into your retirement, into your happily ever after.
You know, I just.

(30:47):
Yeah, I think that's such a great focus is that it fell like, okay, Roman Empire.
So now that you've studied so much of it, sure.
what would you do differently?
Never a part of never like, now that I've learned from that, this is what I think it'sjust learning about stuff, which also I talk about in the group community thing.

(31:14):
and
It's, and they always leave that part out.
So right now everyone's going straight to like, oh 1930s Germany, right?
And also like, they didn't win, right?
They lost.
Like, yes, they did horrible things while they were in power and then they were taken outof power.

(31:41):
And there's a lot of this,
You know, I was on a podcast the other day and they were like, what advice do you have forpeople?
And I was like, you know, first of all, I think so much of the freaking out right now islike the caucasity, right?
And like just the privilege to be that afraid of situations that like other people areliving in all the time, you know?

(32:10):
like women will keep asking me why I'm so calm.
And I'm like, you're afraid of neurodivergence in a labor camp.
Like I grew up, I survived that already, you know?
talk about the next thing?
oh, yes, yes, it's happening, okay, now what?
Now what?
Yeah.
But also just this like, I don't know, the jumping straight to the worst, I think isreally tied into then saying like, what can we do?

(32:42):
You know, like people keep being like, what can we do?
He's already a dictator.
No, the eff he's not.
He will be forced to leave in four years unless he can change some very significantthings.
And that is not a given yet, right?
Right.
Like four years, like the time continues.
I don't feel like people are able to see outside of there right now.

(33:05):
And that's cultiness.
it's, there's even this black and white of like, he's gonna be a dictator and then we'renot gonna have elections in four years.
Okay, do you think the work stops then?
Do you think we all just sit down and die because he's a dictator?
Like.
Like, so what are you saying?
It's just culty, like, the world is gonna end any minute.

(33:29):
And like black people, are you, and because of your threat of it ending, like you're noteven, you haven't done, nothing's happened yet.
And people are kind of, burn it down.
Hold on, we built this.
Now you, you want to come and burn it, cause you just found out that the guy inside ismean.
Okay, hold on.
My things are inside.
And you just, I want to burn a town.

(33:50):
Okay.
I hear, okay.
And that's why I don't know if you get it.
I want to invent, invent whatever, the waiting room for white women to wait.
Why am I talking?
And like, yes, cause you're mad.
Okay.
And who, what else is going on?
Did this just happen?
It feels like in documentaries when the family, they don't say it as much now, you neverthink this is going to happen to you.

(34:14):
like, so we, why?
You've seen all these stories and you're like, not for me.
okay.
And you're like, the police did what?
They're not doing a great job guys.
And agreed.
So now what do we do about it?
Look for my kid.

(34:35):
Okay.
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're already doing that because you've been yelling about it, but also how do we preventthis from happening again?
And then they're just like, who's at, who's in fault?
That's what it is.
It's, there's a lot of fault finding.
And I think when you're out of the cult and you've had to like indoctrinate from believingyour goodness is in some other metric, you stop worrying about the fault finding.

(35:01):
If someone finds out you did something wrong, that's like an organization.
That's a culty mindset.
No one's allowed to say that we've ever done anything wrong.
We're allowed to say, we are allowed to say we're not perfect.
We're not perfect, but that's as far as we'll go with that.
We won't acknowledge actual wrongdoing and a changed behavior because that's not whatorganizations do.

(35:24):
People can do that, but organizations don't.
like talk more about that.
Be more authentic to you and it will change other people.
But it's like going to the cult and being like, can you ask the elders if we can go to thedoc?

(35:44):
And they're like, well, we'll talk about it.
We'll think about it.
What are you doing?
Stop asking those guys.
They said, we'll think about it.
That's craziness.
Let's stop.
Or they're going to keep meeting every week.
That's fine.
And I've talked about that before too.
It's like, talk about how it's failing.
Even that like, but not just how big and bad as scary.

(36:06):
Those, those guys.
so, first of I'm laughing because it makes me think of how my book that is very criticalof the military had to go get cleared by the Pentagon.
And we used to just joke about like, what if the cult had to clear it too?
know, like they had to approve of what you could say.
But this thing with going to the worst case scenario, right?

(36:29):
And I like click into my intelligence officer here and it's like, when you do a threatbrief, you have
What's actually going to happen?
Like what do you actually think is going to happen to you and your people this week?
That is what we should be talking about.
You can acknowledge the most dangerous, right?

(36:52):
He's trying to be a dictator.
He wants to put people that he doesn't like in camps, blah, blah, blah, but you don't stayliving in the most dangerous.
Like you still have to go out and complete your mission.
You know, and one of my other analogies here is preppers, right?
They're so concerned that some big emergency is going to show up and ruin or end theirlives that they ruin their own lives, preparing for it.

(37:23):
Yup, it's the self, I don't know what it is, it's like self-fulfilling prophecy, like,you're doing, I don't know what it is, it's a lack of things, right?
So, and it's just like, what?
to convince yourself that there's nothing you can do.
Like the amount of times I have heard people say there's nothing we can do and I'm like,that is such bullshit.

(37:47):
but also thinking about the comfort level and what is the purpose of the communicating toothers.
There is nothing I can do.
And you also need to acknowledge that because it's one thing to feel that.
And, so, why are you saying it?
You're a flying monkey because why would you say that to someone who's talking about whatthey think just in general?

(38:10):
It's a thought terminating cliche, but you're putting it on someone else.
It's one thing for you to have it, but you're saying it out loud.
You get the, that's why it's a, am I talking?
Black people don't get to do this.
You don't listen to the things we say when they're important.
So everything, every word counts.
And that's why black art is just so interesting.
And like, you can sit with it and just react and react and react because when you have thechance to speak, you try to really get everything out, which I, maybe that's just me

(38:40):
projecting.
But I also want to think about
I mean, talk about the Overton window.
I don't know we've ever talked about that, but it's like, when you talk about moreextremist things, the more you move that window of what we talk about, what we accept, you
can either talk about how the Overton window is moving towards a terrible place, or youcan talk about what if you can actually move the Overton window more towards the utopia

(39:10):
that everyone's talking about.
And I feel like that's what-
we're trying to do or what I try to push on people's like, yeah, but what if instead wetalked about this area of things and how they're silly and how it's going to fail and in a
good way.
And to say that, yes, all of this scariness is on purpose.
because the cult look at the end of cult life, is it good?

(39:33):
No, they're doing great.
They're making rules that make no sense.
They, the fly, the biggest fly dies the loudest.
I said all the time.
there's also this, right?
It's like the cult leader ultimately at some point is always gonna precipitate their ownapocalypse.
And I describe it for the same reason that women sometimes fake orgasms, right?

(39:56):
Because if you're climbing and climbing and climbing, like at some point you have toclimax, at some point there must be a crescendo.
And so when you're living,
in waiting and preparing for the apocalypse, very often you go and precipitate your ownapocalypse.
And like another strange example of this is soldiers trying to explain to our familieslike why we want to deploy.

(40:24):
And the way I always explained it, I was like, so when you train for a new job for twoweeks, how do you feel?
You can't wait to get in there and do your job.
And that's how you feel.
know, when I'm home, I can only train in intelligence.
I can't do the actual work.
And so you end up looking forward to going to war, which is insane, right?

(40:50):
It's absolutely insane.
cops, cops, the demon, cops, also the like people who own guns, just owning a bunch ofguns.
Think like just, I remember talking to my friend, just the, are the chemicals behind that?
And what's the, you're ready.

(41:10):
What are you ready for?
You might get beat up, so you use your gun because you're scared you're going to get beatup.
Those aren't equal.
You're going to get more trauma personally.
from having to use that weapon than just getting beat up.
you putting that option there.
have tried to have this conversation so many times, right?
So first of all, they used to say this to the women in war.

(41:33):
They used to be like, you have a gun, right?
In order to avoid being raped, you have a gun.
So first of all, you don't believe us when we say they assaulted us, but now you're like,and you want me to go through the trauma of killing a colleague to...

(41:55):
protect myself and I actually had this argument really specifically with some white malefriends that I lost over January 6th actually.
But they said to me, were like, Danielle, I can't believe that you of all people don'tcarry a gun.
Like with how much physical and sexual trauma you've had.
And I looked at them and I was like, I know I can survive sexual trauma, right?

(42:21):
I don't want to know the trauma
of shooting somebody at close range like that.
You don't wish you had a gun then, you know, I don't think that people realize you shouldlike going through a trauma, just like black people don't wish they were white.

(42:41):
That's what it feels like.
You don't wish you had a way, were a weapon and had a weapon.
You are a weapon because that creates a completely different line of what should havedone.
What could have done if you had it and you didn't use it.
Now it's your fault.
well, that happens to me in my book.
I think it's very poignant that when I am assaulted in the military, I have a weapon andhe does not.

(43:04):
And I don't wish that I had shot him.
I wish that he hadn't raped me.
Right.
think, no, we, remember when I moved to Philly for my first year of, my only year, goingto temple before I moved back to Jersey, because it's, it's in the hood, right?
My brother had this collection of knives, wanted me to carry a knife, whatever.
And I do remember feeling like, yeah, but I can't, like imagining myself using it, not,and feeling like, my God, there would be blood and

(43:34):
because knife and you're close and if they get it, that's bad for you.
That's why, you know, pepper spray or now I have like the siren thing.
And how often do I need to use it?
Never haven't had to use it.
But I, I thought and I had to think about the fact that what does it mean for me?
Like, what is my experience going to be of using it?
Even if someone what wants.

(43:56):
You can't undo that.
And I just think I like the idea of talking about guns as the lazy mans.
fighting.
Like it's lazy.
You want to talk about lazy?
It's in something being easier isn't better because maybe it should be more work.
It should be more intimate, more personal to hurt somebody than it is.

(44:17):
and it's causing the chemical of you're investing in these weapons and you're cleaningthem and you're making an identity out of them.
Even if you don't want to use them, you don't have a racist bone in your body.
You will still are a weapon.
have weapons.
can write safe all over them.
You can put them in all the cabinets you want.

(44:38):
Your likelihood of bringing, of having harm happen is increased because you believe thatthere's some value to having this too.
There's the belief in it.
that, that's part of it.
Yeah, this is why I say white ladies, if you're scared of martial law, you don't take yourgun out with you on the street.

(45:01):
You take your lawn chair and some pink wine and your children and go have a street partyand don't give them an excuse to accelerate things, right?
Because that's the other thing, right?
Which is like the amount of people who are assaulted and then have their own weapons usedagainst them.
Right, right, he takes your purse.

(45:24):
Now he got, or maybe he didn't even have them.
so this happened to my mom, okay?
She's in the mountains of Ecuador as a teenager in the cult, 17, with a 12 year old boyand a 19 year old boy.
And the boys have knives on them for safety as they're hiking in the mountains.
They get held up with a gun.

(45:44):
And as he's tying the boys up, he finds their knives.
At which point he discards the gun, which was probably empty.
and uses the, and starts using the knives as the threat.
And like, didn't help at all, right?
Just gave him more weapons in the actual thing.
Right.
And like talking about bringing knives to a gunfight is like a negative thing as a phrase.

(46:09):
Now I'm like, what if you don't go?
Don't go to the fight.
I like an alternative.
Stop going ride or die.
Go home.
Go home and take a nap.
You we don't, don't, we you're giving us choices.
I think I want to make my own choices because they're really, you know, black or white.

(46:31):
I choose all these colors.
I'd rather wear all these colors than choose one or the other.
But they make you choose.
or something that's like, don't bring a knife or a gun, just stop going.
It's like, what?
You just assume we're just starting at this level?
Gunfight.

(46:52):
It's a gunfight.
So what are you bringing?
Whoa, guys.
Guys, I don't think that's fun anymore.
All the games we have and the lullabies, they're just terrible.
And they just tell us everything's going to be bad and scary.
But what if we move the Overton window, the conversations we had, into a more positivedirection?

(47:13):
I can have these conversations, and we can have these conversations about systemic harmand violence and still have positive experiences, right?
Like we've had negative experiences, they're part of journeys, it's a part of the thing.
But when you talk about it, it doesn't have to be a negative experience.
Yeah, because even everything going on in our country right now, you know what?

(47:35):
We're more honest as a country.
We're going to be more bonded when this is through because you know what bonds peoplegoing through hard things together.
I am much more connected to my community than I was prior to a cult leader taking office.
know, there's.

(47:56):
You know, I keep saying, I'm like, can you?
Imagine, the revolt we could lead of the late diagnosed autistic women that they try toput into a camp.
Can you just think about all the things we know how to do and all the special skills wehave?
different ways of communicating that they would never understand.

(48:20):
Like we could make comparisons that they still wouldn't.
I, you know, when I talk about that, I think that knitting and crocheting just seems soaway from the male gaze that it's like, they're not even, they don't even know how to
interpret it.
And I remember being on TikTok, like they're not going to even know how to deal with me orsee me or hear me to know to shut me down for a long time.

(48:41):
And it's finding that, but also in that we make stuff.
And that to them is like, why would you know?
Not if it's not for their attention or, or days, it doesn't make sense.
And those things that are for them are easier, but it's like, no, no, no, no, These arebetter.
This is a better scenario.
Honestly, when you're honest and having conflict and seeing like, not just being like,it's fine.

(49:06):
Everything's fine guys.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Cause that's what y'all are doing before.
my gosh, so it's so funny.
So I've decided I'm wearing more corsets this year because I'm in my tutor phase, but alsobecause I'm going back and learning about Czech and Slovakian like collars and culture,
right?
Like my culture.
So sometimes I get on the internet and there's some sisters peeking out, right?

(49:30):
And the amount of men that will come into my comments to basically inform me
that my boobs are a psychological operation, but they don't get it when it's knitting.
I'm like, that's how I know we're gonna win the revolution.
Because like, I'm knitting in part because it hypnotizes you and makes you watch my videoslonger.

(49:58):
Like it is a legitimate piece of a sci-op.
Yeah, they say, you know, I was saying like sex sells and like, yeah, and so do a lot ofthings, but just cause you say it and it's got two S's and trust me, I know the power of
alliteration.
It doesn't mean everything.
Sex sells.
Yeah.
Well, selling things isn't the most fun.
It's the creating things.

(50:19):
That's actually kind of fun.
not the getting stuff for it.
The reward isn't the thing.
It's the why and the accomplishment and the knowing you did it and the experience.
The experience of being able to say like, made this when I see people online say, I can,I, cause I know what that feels like.

(50:39):
I made this that first time you say, I made that something that is different than I madethis money.
I earned this.
I bought this.
It just doesn't give you the same sense of.
Pride or you know.
like a whole nother concept of like these men with their boats and their fancy cars.

(51:01):
And it's like, that's their way of bragging.
Like I made this money that bought this thing.
I made people buy something that they otherwise would not have.
Cause that's really, you know, like the best businesses are like, I created a thing thatno one thought they needed.
Then they bought it.
And I made a bunch of money made quote unquote made.

(51:24):
Cause like we discussed last week, you can't make it, you take it.
And I took a bunch of their money.
And now I have this thing that proves it.
Like, all right, bro.
You have to maintain that like the castle.
They got a bunch of stuff.
Taking care of a boat is a lot of work and like money and also it rocks a lot.

(51:44):
I don't know.
Do what you got to do, I guess, but like.
Also, is it actually fun?
This is the thing I asked myself when I got to a level of financial privilege.
What do I want?
And there's some things, but it's like, I would drink some better wine, I would buy yarnwherever all the time and not keep track, and I would travel more.

(52:12):
But you know something that's really fun and brings me a lot more joy than things?
just being the best tipper ever, ever.
Like, when I just get to like tip somebody 50 % or 100 % of the check, like, that's funfor me.
That's literally like when I got my book deal, I went out, I had a martini to celebrate,and then I gave the waitress 50 bucks.

(52:38):
And like, that was my celebration.
And it's, it's self, it's not.
unselfish, right?
It's like, that's something I like doing with my money.
I also really love when people are like, don't give money to like the poor, the unhoused,whatever it is, right?
And it's always like, they're just gonna buy drugs or alcohol with it.

(53:00):
And I always just look at them and I go, that's cool.
That's what I was gonna do with it.
And like, so same, same evil twin evil twin.
Like that sounds great, but that's sharing, right?
That isn't, that's what I feel like I'm doing.
It feels good to me when I get to make up these words and share them because it doesn'tit's power hoarding doesn't is a tenant of white supremacy power hoarding.

(53:27):
like, doesn't feel great to know that you.
are able to live a life and someone you deeply care about is going to work for some whiteman that makes them feel like garbage, then the first thing I did was say, I can't look at
this girl cry the way I cried and I'm gonna, we're gonna figure this out.

(53:48):
That's gonna be the goal for me to make money so that I can see someone who deserves tohave peace of mind, have peace of mind.
And then they helped me and that goes back to me.
She now is like, I want, you know.
Well, and it's like this is also what people don't realize about like, you know, I I'vemade mistakes but why I'm not scared of those mistakes coming back to bite me is because I

(54:16):
treat people well and I pay people well and Like literally like when I think of like Ikeep my side of the street clean, right?
Like it doesn't mean be perfect.
It's just like
It's don't be defensive.
don't think defensiveness is something, you know, people are like the right to defend.

(54:40):
That's weird to talk about.
It's almost like innocent till proven guilty.
Like you just saying words.
I don't know.
Do you have to?
If it's true, then it's true.
If it's not, it's not.
It's like.
The difference between gossip and like snitching is the power dynamic, I think, and youknow why you're doing it.

(55:01):
If people want to just say something about me to like get me in trouble, it'll only get mein trouble if it gets me in trouble.
I don't know, natural consequences.
is what I try to explain to people about cults and cult leaders, right?
And like nothing, you know, this weekend a Republican congressman stood up and literallysaid in his town hall, like, this is not a cult, we are not a cult.

(55:22):
And like, you don't have to say that when you're not a cult.
And people come back, people will come back at me and they're like, come on, anyone thatgets accused of being a cult or a cult leader would feel defensive.
I'm like, I.
because I work in cults, that is the number one thing I get accused of whenever peopledon't like usually that I have more expertise than them.

(55:45):
And they go, so you're a cult leader.
And like never once have I had to like make a video or address anything about being a cultleader.
Just the same way that if someone randomly accused me of being a criminal, I would nothave to go down to the courthouse and like tell people I wasn't a criminal.
Like you're just not a criminal.

(56:07):
what does that even mean?
You know, what is a criminal?
What's the difference between criminal and outlaw?
Cause guess what?
It's against the law to do a bunch of things I think are okay.
And there were a bunch of things that were legal to do that are absolutely not okay.
And that things that are illegal only if you stand in a specific place at a specific time.

(56:31):
That doesn't.
Stop it, natural consequences, okay?
Stop going to the rules to make sense out of what the rules do.
No, no.
so, so we are parents that do natural consequences.
And it's so funny that people like, they try so hard by the way to convince us that itdoesn't work.

(56:53):
And like, my kid's nine, I'm halfway through this.
And like, it has worked for nine years.
And like, what do you mean by that, right?
So from the age my kid was three, I don't tell her to clean her room.
I don't nag, I don't have to do any of that.
I just don't help her find stuff at an age-appropriate level, right?

(57:15):
So now, never, she's nine.
Like, I don't help you find your things.
And so you know what?
She has an entire system of how to make her bed and put her clothes away so that she canfind her things.
Now we're getting into the like, fighting about wearing a jacket and like, I will neverunderstand American white girls and the hatred of jackets, but like,

(57:40):
I'm not going to have this fight.
And I don't have to punish her, I just don't have to drive her to a play date afterschool.
It's like, are fighting with me, you need me to want to do something for you, I'm notgonna wanna do that thing anymore.
like, that's the consequence.

(58:02):
This is.
that's like, growing up, you need to realize that.
And white women have not realized that.
you yell at people and then say, finish my nails.
Like, you think that person now is gonna finish working on you and do it nicely after you,because you're not thinking about the consequences.
You're just acting.
But I also think when you said, whatever the guy said, you should do like a, not youshould do, but you know what I mean?

(58:27):
Like, who said this?
Cause Keith Raniere said, we're not a cult.
Is that who said this?
This guy or Keith Raniere?
The answer is all of the above.
Like Keith Raniere and Jim Jones and whoever has said this is not a cult right before theywere, you know, put in prison or whatever.

(58:47):
such a good one who said the Scientology, Children of God or Alcoholics Anonymous.
Because they're the same, right?
And you'll find the same behavior as long as someone is cult hopping or cult shopping.
And I said that in the beginning of our thing, was like, if you're still asking, but whatabout, you're still shopping.

(59:09):
And you're, and I get it.
I've been there and you just think, all right, well, if this one isn't working, then sowhat's where to, so what's next?
okay.
And then we go to the waiting room.
The, why am I even like, what's the point here?
And it can be a scary place for a bit.
You start to get a little antsy cause you're like, I'm listening.

(59:30):
And then what?
You know, let's, let's slow down.
We'll take a beat and see, just like tell each other, well, actually we're going to keepexisting.
So let's figure out how we want to do it.
You're staying reactive and dependent on the cult coming around.
And, and also with, you know, discipline and like not letting other people get away withstuff.

(59:53):
letting your kid get away with something.
I don't know, let them.
There are gonna be consequences.
I got away with having people in my house one time.
It was a terrible experience.
I never wanted that to happen again.
I barely wanted it to the first time.
much do we get away with as white people?
You know, like...
you're actually the, well, I think that that's so much of America is getting gaining andthen getting away with is controlling the conversation after you get the thing you needed

(01:00:23):
and then you yelled if that's what you needed to do.
You hit someone and it's like, well, here's the reasons.
And that's why you can't get mad at me.
Whoa, too late.
You know, you, you, and it's like, well, we moved on.
It's over now.
It's like when someone does a silent treatment and then comes back and they're like, sowhat's for dinner?

(01:00:45):
Whoa, I wanna, because you know what you're doing.
And they're like, what do you mean?
just, gaslighting.
also try to teach my daughter this about power dynamics, right?
Where I'm like, there's a reason that teenagers can talk to their parents in a certainkind of way, right?
Because then they can also just leave the house and be okay on your own.

(01:01:06):
But you're trying to be a teenager, but you still need me to get your olives out of thefridge.
You know, like you can't, you're gonna have.
to talk nicer to me.
And it's not about like, you're gonna get away with that probably when you're a teenager,but like, that's because of the natural consequence of you'll just be able to get on your

(01:01:28):
bike and go see your friend and again, not need me to drive you to the play date.
Right, but by then there will be so many learning experiences from the naturalconsequences that it isn't reinforced to treat you poorly.
It's reinforced to treat you well.
You get more stuff.
that is natural.
Natural consequences have natural outcomes, but we try to control the outcome bycontrolling the consequence.

(01:01:54):
Stop, calm down.
you heard about living around children?
Kind of, kind of.
millennials who are all very stressed out that our houses are messy all the time and ourchildren won't play in these amazing rooms that we made for them.
And then you just have this realization that you have living room kids.

(01:02:20):
I told this to my husband.
Like he spent all his time in his bedroom because he didn't like his family and he didn'twant to hang out with them.
Right.
Yeah.
spends all her time in the living room because she likes us and wants to hang out with usand doesn't spend time in her giant amazingly tricked out room because she doesn't like

(01:02:43):
being alone when she could be with the rest of her family.
And the trade off to that is our living rooms are not perfect the way our parents were,but I have a living room kid and I'll take that.
because someone's living there.
You know, it's crazy.
Like I am only that I had to have the moment of awareness of like a living room isn'tsupposed to look like anything specific.

(01:03:07):
Like it, it's okay that it looks like I live here.
I got crochet projects all along.
had this big couch at that time, but like all along the couch and it's like, Ooh.
And then like, wait, but I like seeing them and knowing what I have there.
I live here.
My living room.
covering your couches in plastic, right?

(01:03:27):
And like, you're so worried about keeping your couch nice that you never enjoy your couch.
And like, you know what?
My couch has a bunch of stab wounds in it, because we do a lot of crafts.
And I just cover it with a quilt that someone made me.
of me right in front of plastic couch.
I remember this plastic.
I am traumatized by this.
That's my grandma's house.

(01:03:47):
That's the Jamaican mother.
Oh, the plastic.
I thought that's how the couch came.
I was like, why would she do this?
It took me years to realize.
And only after really, but anyway, what is that?
never get to the point that you use the couch, right?
And we had this, we made this rule with our fancy china.

(01:04:09):
I'm from a family where everyone, get married, they get a sense of fancy china.
And so in the first house that my husband and I set up, we set aside a whole room for thefancy dining table that we never used, right?
With the chairs and the art and the fancy china.
And then it wasn't till we sold the house and they staged it and they just like didsomething with that space.

(01:04:33):
And we were like, holy.
She definitely, she definitely had a cabinet.
Now you can't see in the picture, a cabinet of China.
so, and so did my dad.
I just.
and so when we moved here, we were like, you know what?
Like my husband made this family heirloom table with a glass top and it's beautiful andit's our dining room table we use every day.

(01:04:55):
And anytime anyone comes over, I don't care if it's the best friend, like we use thechina.
Because like, what's the point of keeping this stuff nice if you never get to enjoy itnice?
it's more valuable in whiteness.
It's more valuable the less it's done.
Like it's very anti-human thinking to be like, I am the best because nobody else can dothis thing.

(01:05:21):
Right?
Like breaking the records and stuff.
Instead of just being really fast and having a good time and competing for funsies andhaving a it's like, but who broke whose and, but anyway, there's just the exclusivity
being the value in itself.
It isn't used.
Okay.
Um, but it can be washed, right?

(01:05:42):
So is it okay?
I think it's like, yeah, the knife is a, why do you have plates?
Like even I think the calling them China really like threw me off for a while.
was like, what are you guys talking about?
China's in the cabinet.
What do you mean?
That's a, and you're like the plates and China, I still don't fully understand.
Okay, so you'll like this one.

(01:06:04):
In Portuguese, the word for turkey that you eat is Peru.
So I always joke that they were like, if you guys are gonna call it turkey, we're gonnacall it Peru.
That's kind of funny.
That's cute.
It's like connecting languages, but the whole, like the preservation of what and why, whatare you preserving?

(01:06:30):
Communities preserve their own culture by just spreading their culture so that more peopleknow about it.
Groups and group think preserves their culture by making sure no one else ever has it evercan or say they can it's inherited only and dedication and devotion is required.

(01:06:51):
I feel like there's so much about dressing up too.
This concept that like you have these clothes that are your most expensive clothes usuallyand then you use them like very rarely.
And I run into this with the knitted stuff, right?
And people are like, how do you wash it?
I'm like, okay, well, first of all, you try to wash it as little as possible, but thatdoesn't mean don't use it, but also you'll wear it out at some point.

(01:07:19):
You know, I have this,
long beaded rainbow crochet dress that is starting to look worn because I have worn iteverywhere for five years.
I've gotten so much joy out of it.
like, you know, like.
it for the end and more happily you're not allowed to be happy until ever after.

(01:07:46):
what?
fun dressing up and I just decided to do it every day.
Yeah.
And I do it, you know, inside.
struggle to do it.
Well, actually when I eventually finished doing everything I needed to do and go back toliving an outside life, whatever that means, I do like wearing what I wore, even though I
don't love attention.

(01:08:07):
I like talking about my things.
And I think that is like, that is how we can communicate with each other and people acrossthe aisle or whatever who are not in the aisle or who had just kind of like
entering the building, cause they hear things are going on.
They may be drawn to the people who are just enjoying themselves doing their own thing andgo like, what's you doing?

(01:08:28):
And you might feel more comfortable talking about that.
And that's more of an opening than who'd you, who'd you vote for?
Or like, what do you, what do you think about what's, isn't it so terrible?
Can you believe it?
You know, where does that go?
I think there are just so many more.
Like someone once said to me, I love the way you discuss things because it opens doors inmy brain that I didn't know were there.

(01:08:55):
And I love that so much because I just want to open the door.
I don't know what's behind there.
I just, or once you just, I want to tell you, there are doors.
You haven't seen them yet.
Did you know that?
And then you can go looking for them and you only know until you start experiencing yourown life and doing things and talking to people.
You can't like write the list.

(01:09:16):
out of what you're gonna do when you're gonna do it, how you're gonna prevent looking badever, or like being wrong ever.
Nah, the community got you.
Like I started with Bad Baby and Alabama Barker.
yeah, both white women and black people are like, we in their business, but listen, thething about, you know, we, Bad Baby, she corrupt.

(01:09:38):
Oh my goodness.
And you get appreciation just for doing a good job at whatever you're doing.
Whatever your thing is, you like it, we love it.
We love it for you.
And that's so many opportunities right there.
you know, there's another thing I think with you saying like being so worried aboutlooking mad, I think is also this idea that people are looking at you, you know?

(01:10:04):
And so like I teach salsa dancing, right?
And I, so many adult white people are just like, I can't dance.
it's so embarrassing.
And I always say to them, okay, like imagine you're looking at a dance floor, right?
And there's a couple stumbling over themselves.
And then there's a couple that looks like Dancing with the Stars.

(01:10:26):
Who are you looking at?
Who are you watching?
And so I tell them, like, don't worry, if you suck at this, nobody's looking at youanyway.
And I think that's true for so much stuff, especially like starting to do it, beingafraid, all of this stuff.
And it's like, when you start off, nobody's looking at you.

(01:10:48):
And by the time you have like a platform and an audience,
You probably know what you're doing.
And they're not looking at you for you.
So like I said, like, it's like you're crying in your car when you feel, you feel a lot,right?
And you think because you're feeling so much, people are looking at you.
Nope.
Actually, have you ever been looking into someone's car and been like, they're crying,whoa.

(01:11:11):
Because no one, you're not doing that.
When you think my windshield wipers are going so, I used to think this, think about thatlike subconsciously, like.
who, how fast is everybody else's windshield wipers going?
Because I don't want to look like the one that's like, whoa, rain too much.
It's the same kind of centering of yourself, but like, yeah, look bad.

(01:11:31):
And if you're enjoying it, that matters more confidence.
People talk about my style or whatever.
Most of it is just that I enjoy doing this.
They like my crochet and they call me talented and all that stuff.
Not really.
I just like doing it.
So I'm doing it a lot.
And that's.
yeah, I teach paint and SIP classes, right?

(01:11:54):
And every single time I have ever taught one, I think, there's one person at least whoshows up and just does whatever they want on the canvas, right?
Which is great, but it also means you just paid me $40 to give you permission.

(01:12:14):
to paint on a canvas.
Like that's all you were waiting for was the permission to do art.
You can just do that.
And I always tell them, I'm like, you have my permission now to paint whenever you like,you know?
that's right.
The whole permission thing, paternalism, paternalism, like we grow up with parents, theparents tell you what to do.

(01:12:36):
And after you leave the house, then your job tells you what to do or the college tells youwhat to do.
Someone's always telling you what to do.
And the idea of just doing your own thing, it's like, who told you you could do that?
I said, I'm white woman whisperer.
was like, who gave you permission to be that?
I was like, I read a book about.
I read a couple of books on these white men who just say, I'm this, and they're actuallynot.

(01:12:58):
They have no actual credentials.
They just say it.
I do and have this awesome terminology, and I'm supposed to wait for someone to go,mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
going on here with my own experiences that I can speak to now that I realized that.
But that's, you have to like release some of the happily ever after of the systems you'realready in to see these other doors.

(01:13:23):
Cause you've just been down this one door.
This hallway is long, never ending and gray.
Ooh.
You could stop at any moment and just be like, nevermind.
thing you should want is behind that door.
And instead, like, there might be cool things behind these other doors.
Right.
Like, okay, we did this.

(01:13:44):
We did this.
We're not getting the most like great joy out of it.
let's try something else or what did we like about this journey?
We can store that.
We can talk about that later.
Now, next thing, like what now what's next?
And it takes personal agency though, to even get here to, know, the color thing.
You need permission to wear colors.

(01:14:05):
You have all the permission to do everything.
You feel so entitled to so much.
but it's only based on the titles you're given.
Your entitlement comes with the titles and you don't feel like you are deserving ofanything or of value without those things telling you what you can and can't say.
You have this credential, so you're allowed to say this.

(01:14:27):
As a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that's white people stuff.
We just say what we know.
I'm just going to say, hey, black women are the ones who told me about this white people,a white people thing, made me think of y'all.
and like how we can connect these things.
Do I need permission?
No, but what do we do?
And they're coming to you and luckily, and I think they're fortunate, but it's so mucheasier to follow like a group think person, someone who goes, this is what we do.

(01:14:58):
Give me $50.
I'll get back to you, but trust me, I got it.
It's black owned, it's whatever the thing is.
You you say the words that sound like a culty charismatic leader, not you, but like theseother people, know, we actually have, there's motive behind, or like movement behind what

(01:15:22):
we're doing and what you're trying to do in the conversations.
They're not just one time, call your representative, very one dimensional, this one guy,put all your faith in that, in one of the elders of the.
Okay.
What about you doing something?
What about you saying if they tell me to do something against my personal beliefs, whatare those first?

(01:15:48):
I'm not going to do that.
This is how I will not engage with what I am conditioned to do.
Yeah, and this is part of what I've been explaining to people, right?
Like when you are deep into the world of like security and disaster planning and stuff,which I've been, you you understand that like a disaster that hits your whole community is

(01:16:10):
not something you can really prepare for.
So you prepare for individual disasters and then you, you know, if stuff happens, like youpull together, you come together.
But so,
from that, right?
Like some of the advice I have been giving my people is like, your like what's happeningright now, right?

(01:16:31):
Back to like, what is my real life?
What has changed?
And then if you want to spend time in the worst case, right?
Think about what you would do, who you would protect, right?
You're worried that they're coming for trans people?
Like they can come for my trans brother over my dead white lady.

(01:16:53):
body, right?
Like if that's what you're afraid of, think of that, right?
What are you going to do when they come to take your neurodivergent child to a camp?
What are you gonna do about it?
Because we, it's like, we the people get to decide, you know, and I've been saying this,I've been saying this thing to people a lot, that there was this soccer game in Brazil, it

(01:17:18):
was some big playoff game, and the...
people watching the game got so mad at the referee that they stormed the field and pulledhis head off.
And while I'm not recommending that, I want people of America to understand that like,there are 340 million of us, right?

(01:17:41):
As soon as we all together decide that we're not putting up with something, it can't bedone.
America cannot be run by force.
So, but some of the other day was like, are they gonna start mandating that my son hasshort hair?
Cause he loves his long hair.
And I was just like, just think about the logistics of mandating hairstyles for 340million people.

(01:18:08):
They type that into a live where other people could see it.
Here's the thing.
They type that into a live when they could be listening.
Cause I'm sure you were talking.
I'm sure you were talking a good, see that's my, that's my problem.
Not your fear because that's also, that's your, okay.
I can't believe it has to get that bad.

(01:18:31):
Do know how far it has to go for that to be okay.
But I also like.
I think it's good to ask, what if the world, so if you were in a cult or if you knewsomeone in a cult and say like, they thought the world was going to end at this date, you
would ask them, hopefully maybe.
So if it doesn't, I'm here for you, you're spending another, but if it doesn't, what areyou going to do?

(01:18:57):
Or how will you feel?
Like put it in the mindset, how will you feel?
What will you do?
Cause they believe, right?
I don't know what would happen as a result of that, but I think that.
you know, having someone say, then I won't, you know, it's something where they have toconfront that cognitive conflict.
And I think that's like a good, better seed to plant.
And like you're saying, all right, so they do this.

(01:19:18):
What, what are you going to do when they do?
And it does tend to help you feel more agency today.
Like I said, when money doesn't exist, helps me feel more agency today.
say they had a decree that boys could only have short hair.
What are you gonna do?
Are you gonna comply?
Or are you gonna fight back?
Or is fighting back gonna be suing?
Is it gonna be just doing it anyways?

(01:19:40):
You know, there's like so many different like things that could come out of these things.
But then, you know, there's this final thing for me, I think with anxiety, where it'slike, okay.
I am the type of anxious person that if somebody I love is not here when they say they'regonna be here, I immediately assume they're dead in a car crash, right?

(01:20:05):
And that is evangelical, right?
Every time I got in car for 16 years, we're praying for like angry Sky Daddy not to killus.
also a little dopamine seeking, I think, because I also would do that and it kind of givesyou a distraction, know, subconsciously to go, now this is really important, I got to

(01:20:26):
think about this and what if and what if when versus the calm down and I'll deal with thislater.
And so one of the things I've tried to do with myself, like this hits me, I get the mostanxiety when it's my husband and my kid together away, which also means I'm child free and
probably relaxing, right?
And I tell myself, right, like if that's true, right, if they are dead in a car crashsomewhere right now, nothing is going to prepare me for that.

(01:20:55):
Nothing is gonna prepare me for that.
Nothing is gonna like lessen the impact of that.
So I might as well just enjoy this last good hour of my life, right?
Like if the worst thing you are afraid of is going to come true, you're gonna have to dealwith it then, right?

(01:21:15):
It's like the, the military has this concept that we can prepare you for torture bytorturing you just a little bit, or we can prepare you for sleep deprivation by sleep
depriving you.
And it is like,
feel like you did it to yourself.
That's literally the dehumanization has to happen here first.

(01:21:35):
Oh my God.
That's so, that is gonna be the thing that sticks with me this week.
I can tell because what?
then, cause then you get to, you cognitively are like, oh, we're torturing them.
Like I already know how, like because you've gone through it, it's like the, it's worsefor me if they have a problem.
It's like, well, I've, there's just so many.

(01:21:57):
The justified.
and then all the trauma that you go through from training for torture, you know?
I mean, it's just like, it's so, it's so bonkers.
Sorry.
Cults are just, you know, the gaslighting of it all.

(01:22:19):
And that if it's hard work, that's the other part of this, the sacrifice of torturingyourself, of getting tortured.
That means there is moral superiority.
Even in torturing yourself with what if they're dead, what if they're dead, what ifthey're dead, there is some identity with like, I'm suffering,

(01:22:40):
There's something good about this is helpful in some way.
Ooh.
or even like my suffering will take over my life, right?
Like that will be, there's definitely some centering involved in that, I think.
Yeah, I've never thought of it that way.
I've never thought about it that way before.
But like, because I tell myself all the time, I'm like, in my head, right, my story isgonna end with my family dying, right?

(01:23:08):
Because I came from such bad stuff and I just have to regularly tell myself, like the oddsare.
everyone in my family is fine and lives out their life and we're just happy and we'llexperience pain.
Well, obviously eventually everyone in my family will die, but like, just like remindingmyself that like, it's not a story.

(01:23:33):
You're like, this was.
ever after.
Literally when my husband was on his deployments, he was special operations, he was flyingin dangerous combat zones, I am an expert on how helicopter pilots die, and I was writing
my memoir, Uncultured, and I literally used to say this.

(01:23:53):
I was like, if this was a story, he would get killed, right?
If this was a story, I would lose my husband in this chapter because...
And then what though?
Right, but like yeah, yeah, yeah.
right.
And I remember having friends be like, why?
Like, why are you so stuck on this?
my God, that's so true.
Cause that would be the end of your, but that would be the end of your story.

(01:24:17):
That's how your story should, you know, if it's a story, if it's fairytale, if it'swhatever, that's how your story ends.
You're this and then you, you know, more influencer really for something.
I hate that because you still end up going out and doing stuff and like probably dateagain.
Like it doesn't sound good.

(01:24:38):
a little bit of the trauma of just being like, then I just get to give up at life, right?
Like if my family gets killed, I just get to give up at life and be sad for the rest of mylife and depressed.
I don't have to work so hard at making myself happy.
Wow.

(01:24:59):
That's it.
Because you're like, when can I just be, because get my happily ever after.
But a lot of times we know that's not real.
So it's got to be a, whatever the opposite is, nightmare ever after, know, just like,don't death.
live a happy life as well.
You have to work at being happy.
Your responsibility is your own fault.

(01:25:22):
Gosh, I see this so much now.
The happiness too, because happiness is like a thing, like a moment.
think referencing joy makes more sense because they're moments and you can get into joyeven in sad, terrible times.
You're not happy, but you laugh because you find joy in sad, you know, certain moments.
why people feel guilty the first time they laugh after they lose a loved one, right?

(01:25:47):
Because it's like, how could I possibly be feeling joy right now when I'm like so unhappy?
Or something like that.
No, I definitely, this is interesting.
This is an idea I'm gonna have to explore with my cult survivor community because one ofthe things of deconstructing is living with it, right?

(01:26:09):
Living with the trauma and the background and whatever other immune disorders you have andwhatever mental stuff you have and constantly, constantly, I know one way or the other I'm
working hard for the next 30 years and
there is this like apocalyptic, like I get to just give up.

(01:26:29):
If something like that would happen, I get to just give up and nobody would expect me totry to like work at being happy anymore.
See, no one would expect it, so that's why you have to do it.
Whether you want it or not is not why you're doing it.
It's the performance of living, not actually living an experience because you're stillviewing yourself from a lens that isn't yours.

(01:26:56):
It was created.
That's why people in community, after slavery and within slavery, there's an honesty thatthat lens has nothing to do with you.
or even, you know, that you're like, woo, thinking about the fact that white people or theEuropeans more would be gifted like flowers and incense and think, whoa, this must mean

(01:27:18):
I'm just like, they must be revering me, they're worshiping me, but it's because theysmell so bad.
So people are just like giving them those things, right?
You know that about them.
So when they say you're disgusting, you kind of go like, okay, I'm going to keep, youknow, you're not defending yourself to this.
But maybe you are in certain, you know, after generations and they have guns now.

(01:27:41):
So maybe, but in accepting that you're okay, you can be wrong.
You could be, you're not a wrong person if you're wrong or look bad or make the group lookbad.
Cause that's also weird.
If you wear your corporate logo and you go out and get drunk while you're wearing yourcorporate logo, that's a no-no.

(01:28:04):
That's weird.
That's weird.
ew.
corporate logos, we need to do that as a whole topic sometimes.
Please, I wish I knew when I threw her out that I shouldn't, but I probably took pictures.
Like a, again, laundry basket of free t-shirts.

(01:28:25):
All right, that's crazy.
Anyway, we'll talk.
concept, just when people say they ran a race and got a free t-shirt, and especially whenthey're talking about a marathon, and I'm like, you spent $150 for this registration, but
yeah, you got a free t-shirt, cool.

(01:28:46):
Like the whole marathon, you know, it's like, who's having fun?
Stop.
of them.
At no point was it fun.
Thank you, okay, okay, because I'm like, you know I'm not trying, I'm not being likemarathon runners, I'm stupid, but I'm just saying marathon.
Yes.
for another time because literally I got done with my first marathon and I was like, I'mnever putting myself through that again.

(01:29:11):
And approximately 30 minutes later, I was like, I bet I can do that faster.
We gotta talk about that.
Yeah, we gotta talk.
And the t-shirts are such a great, because, yeah, the denial is crazy.
we'll do it next week.
Thank you so much everybody for listening to our rambles.
I feel like today was really deep and we're gonna be unpacking this for a while.

(01:29:34):
Please follow Rebecca at her White Women Whisperer Patreon, which will be linked.
I call it matri on now for TikTok.
So I'm just gonna call it matri on all the time now.
As long as I know it's actually Patreon, please find me.
No, but you'll find me.
You Google me, you know, I'm probably find a-
If you haven't read Uncultured yet, you can listen to it on Spotify Premium now for freeand I still get paid.

(01:30:01):
And please make sure to like and subscribe.
We are really close to 25,000 downloads, I believe.
So woohoo!
And if you haven't seen our beautiful faces and our awesome crafts, come find us atYouTube or Patreon.
Thanks everybody.
Thanks.

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Episode 28 | Appropriation or Appropriate

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 28 | Appropriation or Appropriate