Episode 29 | Faces on mountains and people in streets - Hey White Women

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
we got faces on mountains guys and people dying in the street.

(00:04):
There's types of people who allow certain things to happen
So let me show you with this color.
You told me you love this color.
So of course I made the scarf again.
But also during COVID, I knitted this skirt and like.

(00:24):
is deep.
That is gorgeous.
And like, we heard a lot, we heard a lot during COVID how Shakespeare wrote Taming of theShrew during the pandemic.
But like, I wrote a book and I made lace.
So am I better than Shakespeare?

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I mean, with Shakespeare, listen, with Shakespeare, man.
And in those times, I feel like we need to think a lot more in like, you know,demographically speaking, right?
Every time they, cause I think about people from the past and that's how I got into mywhole debacle about John Brown because I was kind of like, well, I mean, yeah, no, cool,

(01:09):
great.
But, but imagine a situation.
that would have been better.
And it's just the way people would talk about him.
like, you're not, you're romanticizing people of the past and you're not, and that's why Istarted saying rehumanize them because, so a man from the 1800s, you want me to revere,

(01:30):
like look gloriously on his existence because he wanted to murder slave owners.
Yeah.
So I kind of have felt this is problematic about our founding fathers.
And so far, my co-writers have taken it out of two books, but I'm putting it in the thirdone that like, as long as we keep saying that the founding fathers are great men, right?

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And also riddle me why, the Washington Monument is just a giant phallic
statue piercing the sky.
I can't explain to you how many times I've just been like, guys, they put their faces intoa mountain.
And it's not like, like, just look at the facts, right?

(02:21):
Say it just a being appears and it has full cognizance of your age.
And you're like, okay, let me explain to you why everyone's going to visit this thing.
Cause I went, my ex wants to do, we did a road trip and I learned so much about things,right?
And this was.
This was a time and I went to this thing and I'm like, we're going literally to a mountainto see like they carved with the time and energy and the circumstances of the country they

(02:48):
were in.
It's not like they were like, you know what we need to do with our time and energy andfocus?
This, this, and now we today are going to go visit.
And so I have a little video of me.
was in the beginning of my white woman whisper journey.
I don't think I had the site.
I don't know.
I, it was like around the time I think it was October.
So maybe a couple of months later, I figured out.
what I needed to do.
And I'm like tickling their little faces in my video and I'm like little slave ownersbecause like didn't at least one of them own people and I'm supposed to go, this is great.

(03:19):
I don't even know who's up there to be honest.
Wait, George Washington's up there?
Okay.
His wife did.
anti-slavery, but I believe he only released his slaves after his own death.
But maybe that was Jefferson.
Well, right, because I'm pretty sure Martha, because this is a thing that white womenspecifically need to also understand is I understand like you were also property, but you

(03:46):
were allowed to own enslaved people before you could own anything else.
Before you got the right to whatever anything, you could be bequeathed people.
And so I think the stories about Martha Washington is that he married her because she hada bunch.
from who, dad?
I don't know.
I don't care that much about it, but it was like 40 % of the slave owners were women.

(04:12):
So that matters, but that isn't talked about for a reason.
Right?
And so like part of feminism was catching up and being equal to men and like, but this issomething you did have.
Those were people would marry you so that they could have what you had.
Like it's part of it.
But the faces on the mountain, like how many times?

(04:34):
don't to end with.
It's a
And then we want to talk about the places that are more honestly cults, guess, morehonestly culty.
And we're like, Whoa, look at those statues to the king and like, yeah.
What do you think we have?
This is what I've started saying now, right?
So today it was Seventh Day Adventist, right?

(04:55):
And they're like, why do you consider it a cult?
And I just like, I started to turn this around and be like, why do you think Children ofGod is a cult?
Why do you think Scientology is a cult?
And then like, I will use your definition, your words, right?
Because I know.

(05:17):
Seventh-day Adventism is a cult because I have talked to their ex-members and they havethe same childhood experiences as me.
You know, this was even one of the ways that I knew instinctively that AA was a cultbecause children of steppers have cult baby stories.

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Right?
And so this has been, and this is a big part of my second book on American, is kind of...
You know, I say like the heartbreak of finding out that like the antis and the cultweren't wrong.
You know, so for me, it has been like America finding out that like America is not a greatcountry, you know, and like the reason people go join cults is because there are broken

(06:04):
systems, right?
They're seeking something, they wanna fix something and a lot of it was racism.
But it's like, it's true.
that America is not this wonderful city on a hill, blah, zee, blah, zee, blah, right?
But like, I came out of my cult and I sort of was just like, oh, opposite propaganda,right?

(06:26):
Now I'm in Texas, now I'm listening to how great America is and then I'm in the military.
And, you know, I mean, I think coming, the way the war in Afghanistan ended, like reallyradicalized a lot of us veterans and left us like really understanding.
Right?
I mean, the way we left our, right?

(06:48):
Like, I think it was a million translators we had worked for us, and we maybe got 100,000of them out.
Right?
Like, we promised everybody that worked with us that we would get them out of the country,right?
We would not leave them to the Taliban.
And then we just failed, right?
So we can think whatever we wanted about the rest of the war, but like, we like, in our

(07:12):
bones, right?
When Kandahar and then Kabul fell in a week, I mean, my husband and I were not out of ourpajamas.
Like, it was just like in our bones, like, what, you know, what did we do?
What was this whole thing?
And so now you have like so many of us deconstructing this.
And it's like, what were we ever supporting in the first place?

(07:37):
Right?
You know, like, I went
I went to the death chamber in college in Texas, because I was a criminal justice major.
And at 19 years old, I was like, I can't get on board with the death penalty.
Changed my whole career plan.
Six years later, I'm in the military.
Like, what?
Yeah.
Well, because when we don't go far back enough to figure out why this exists, like we'regoing to keep, we're just going to cult shop.

(08:05):
going to, because we're not realizing that what we are seeking is the problem, but we weregiven that to seek, right?
So they took everything away and gave you their options.
that like what I'm going through with my obvious cult deconstruction is like either whatall millennials are going through or what all white millennials are going through, you

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know?
And the way that I like in my deconstruction of white supremacy journey, right?
I'm like, what do I do?
How do I deconstruct whiteness?
And the answer is find your
find your actual roots, you know?
And I had been knowing that the cult took that from me, right?
Like the cult took me away from a family that was only like two generations removed frombeing immigrants.

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But whiteness took that away from all white people.
Yeah, and I feel like there is a place for white women to find their community as whitewomen who had their community stolen from them.
I feel like there's a missing, you can't see it, but I've been calling it erasism becauseI think that's more of what's actually happening than any kind of.

(09:23):
It's taking away and someone had said like they created emptiness.
It didn't exist already, but it created emptiness.
You're so good with words.
I'm still all in your chapter.
But and this is so this book, White Women Get Ready that I've been talking about and liketoday I was reading this part about like embodied trauma, right?

(09:47):
And how like white people have trauma from racism also, right?
yes, yes, yes, yes.
that I'm realizing as I'm deconstructing modern day, right?
Like right time now, deconstructing racism and white supremacy and anti-racism and like mycommunity is rapidly changing from groups that I have to seek out being mostly white

(10:11):
people from just like community, you know?
And where was I going with that?
so.
But it, so it really sticks out to me.
I feel like what white women lost, right?
And not in a, know, our trauma's the same at all.
But this was the part, you know, I was reading about today and it does feel like this.

(10:35):
honestly, reading through this book with my audience, although I just got demonetizedagain today.
So now I'm starting all over again.
But I know, it's been 13 days, I know.
I know, I'm just playing their game now, I don't even care.
Right.
it can be frustrating and exhausting and like, it almost is like, after, you know, itproofs itself.

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is nice, right?
Because it's like, yeah, nobody talks about that, right?
Like nobody talks about like the women, again, the white women were not free, right?
And we were there alone in the plantation house by ourselves, freaking freezing cold inthe castle or whatever, right?
And just like dealing with

(11:25):
all of the trauma alone.
And this is what I feel like white women do, right?
Is we deal with all of our trauma alone.
And
see each other as, cause you're told your competition and, and to be fair, you are, youknow, the people closest to you are the ones who can cause you the most harm.

(11:45):
Right.
Stranger danger was put on people.
Right.
White women can hurt black women in the office more than a white man can because there'sthis betrayal and sense of togetherness and a shared reality that we realize we're not
sharing the reality anymore.
And, that hurts.
But you guys, like you think community means go find it and colonize it a little bit.

(12:09):
Like you're still in the like, go find one that exists outside of me.
But like, there's a lot of y'all.
So, you know, and I've been saying like, where are the colors?
And like you said, when you're wearing colors, you will find people like you and readabout being a white woman.
But there is this like, I mean, like the bad words.

(12:31):
It's interesting that like, say them.
Make it about race.
Say white.
Say I'm a white woman.
And that creates your community right there.
you know what, someone asked me, a man in the military asked me this about what he can do.
He's like, now my eyes have been open, right?
I've been in for 15 years, blah, blah, blah.
Like, what do I do when I'm talking to other men?

(12:53):
And I was like, you know what?
Black women have told white women, make it about race.
So like, I think this is good advice, right?
Like make it about gender, right?
Like ask your buddies if they know the statistics and what that means.
Mm-hmm.
one of the things I've learned from you, I was even talking about to my husband about theconversation we had last time, which is the dynamic with me dating a black man.

(13:19):
And, you know, the way I explained it to him, I was like, it's the same way that me andour child are safe with you, as long as you want us to be, you know, which is a
realization we've had in deconstructing patriarchy.
And it's like,
And when you realize that, right, like everyone wants an answer.

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So like I live now in a largely not white community and I'm aware that like I'm a safeperson, like I'm building a part of the community, right?
Like people appreciate me, but as long as I want to be, right?
And like that dynamic, nobody wants to talk about it.

(14:02):
And that dynamic, I think we can't.
get together as white women and talk about the Slovakian culture that I lost without alsotalking about what our people gained from that and what that means for right now.

(14:22):
Yeah, like what, there is a language to white womanhood, whether you want to admit it ornot, but it's like, hold, it keeps you from, you know, just like the cultic language keeps
you from engaging with your embodied self and like actually being there and saying, youknow, getting more out of the conversation than like policing each other and making rules.

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And I had seen someone, you know, they had created a group of.
149 white women and they were ready to do the work.
And the first thing they did was make a list of the rules.
Like it has to come from a little bit more natural space.
And when you're still looking for what sounds like, you know, certainty and this is thecommunity.

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You are in it now.
That's not how it feels or look like.
Yeah, and I think, and I think also you don't make the rules, right?
The rules are kind of like, it's like parenting without punishment, right?

(15:32):
Or like natural, like you use natural consequences in the chapter and like, that's how Iparent.
And people are like, what do you mean?
Right?
And it's like, well, as it is safe, right?
Like,
I allow the child to make their choices and there are natural consequences, right?

(15:53):
So like right now, she's nine and she thinks she's a teenager, which for the most part isfine.
But when you have just been yelling at me for 15 minutes and now you want me to drive youto your play date, I don't think so, ma'am.
Right?

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And like,
a consequence.
an actual teenager, you can get on your bike and leave and you don't need me to be likefeeling friendly towards you right now.
But if you're nine, you do.
You know, and that's unless it's raining.
And if it's raining, then there are consequences then too, you know?
Right, and it's just like, so, there's another one I've done with her since she's aboutthree years old.

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It's just like, don't help you look for stuff.
I don't nag, but I don't help you look for stuff.
As is age appropriate, right?
So obviously when she was little, like once a month, I would have to go in and clean herroom myself and keep it in order.
But then like, it's just like, no, go find your thing.

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Because that's.
yeah.
you teach people to clean up, to have an organizational system, right?
And like, this child now makes her bed every day.
Her father and I don't do that.
Like, we had enough of that in the military, right?
So she's never even seen that modeled, but like, she came up with her her ownorganizational system for her stuff.

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own preferences for how to live.
Like, you know, when you grow up, I had to kind of do that myself and realize what is forme and what is because I was told I had to just because I had to.
I like when the bed is made, I find, just because I like to walk in and the bed is made.
And so I make it.
It's not because I think I should.

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I don't care if the living room is got stuff all over it.
That doesn't make me feel joy when it's all put away.
I like seeing all of the things.
So,
I had to kind of come into those, if I had those consequences, I mean, it's a little ofthis, little of that.
But my mom used to threaten to clean my room for me, and that was enough for me.
She would say, I will clean it for you.

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And I'd go, no, don't want that.
Just because then I couldn't find anything.
People also confuse natural consequences with no consequences, right?
And it's like, those are very different things, you know?
that's, so that's my husband's way of dealing with it, right?
Like I'm fine with a little more clutter.
His way of dealing with it is if you don't clean this now, I'm gonna clean it.

(18:26):
And then she does, right?
And like, it's also knowing, knowing your child.
To me, like, maybe other people that would be like, then she do it.
She wouldn't clean it, I don't think, I don't know.
But she just knew, two times was enough for me to think, God, if she cleans it, I won't beable to have my own system and like get my stuff.
And it just took responsibility for it enough.

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And also like, consequences maybe aren't automatic, but just...
They are, they happen.
don't have to come in and make sure they don't get like, it's very like paternalism.
I think is one of the more interesting.
So back to what we were saying about the founding fathers.
What?

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Fathers?
Since when have they been great at doing good stuff?
Anything?
Like since then, like they set it up for fathers, right?
Someone said, I was, I want to talk a lot about.
Well, maybe I won't even, but I've been thinking a lot about Monica Lewinsky, white women,because I'd like to, you know, what people think is the public opinion and how people

(19:32):
reacted to Monica Lewinsky.
think there's a trove of source information you could get from your own.
Undoctrination in how you felt about that thing, because I don't think I didn't get a lotof, I don't think black women agreed with the press stuff.
That sounds like Scientology, fair gaming someone.

(19:53):
Anyway, but they were saying like, Bill Clinton was like the father figure of America.
And so that is why blah, blah, blah, blah.
Everyone hates it.
It was, it gave fair game to me.
It's like, first they said, you're going to get prison time if you don't do this stingoperation on him.

(20:13):
So this was like his opposers.
And so she started there and then, so she does it.
now the from, and from a woman.
Linda Tripp is the reason why she even got all of this stuff.
And women treated her heartfully.
So much.
is so crazy to me that we all, and I'm sure this is white culture, right, like decidedthat the 22 year old was at fault.

(20:40):
Like that is bonkers to me.
That is bonkers.
It's faces on a mountain.
It is putting faces on a mountain and saying, this is a good idea.
This is what the country needs to galvanize ourself.
But these, they're not even attracted.

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the founding fathers.
And then we're all like looking to them.
one?
Do you know that Sam Adams beer?
It's not actually Sam Adams picture because he was so ugly that they put Paul Revere'sface on it instead.
And they could all be the same guy to me.

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And Sam Adams was the president?
Was he?
John Adams was?
I don't even know.
I don't know.
I don't remember.
He was one of these revolutionaries, I believe.
I just know this detail, because I've toured the bush, the Budweiser, what's it called?
Bush, Anaheim, something, yeah, yeah.

(21:45):
okay.
Yeah.
But the names, you know, but the fact that we have just had it around for so long, Idon't, I think there was just so much there to build community around and observational
humor has to be part of it.
Or maybe not, maybe not.
Maybe I'm projecting.
But like to me, like the way people, when they leave cults, you know, talk about,

(22:10):
the cult they were in, that's a community, cult members, you know, because only you havethat experience.
and I always say there's no sisterhood like the ex-cult sisterhood, right?
And this is true for veterans.
And it's just like, and it's also because of this, because bonding comes from goingthrough really hard things together.

(22:33):
Because like, you know, like when, when your company CEO like hires these Rangers to takeyou through this event and like, no.
Bonding like a military team comes from going through the type of things that are notethical to engineer, right?
So like Asheville, North Carolina right now is feeling very, very bonded as a communitybecause they just survived the storm, right?

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Even something like Taylor Swift eras toward dancers going through a terrorist threat andhaving to like respond to that, right?
In a crazy year, right?
This is gonna be stuff that bonds you.
And I...
I think this is so insanely clear when you look at white communities and communities, justnon-white communities in general in America.

(23:21):
That you have more community because you have to, because you survive hard thingstogether.
And whiteness is all about just like not rocking the boat so that you don't have to dealwith waves, right?
Like the idea that waves are a problem.
Waves are natural.
I'm going to need you to acknowledge them because you're going to keep getting, you know,knocked over as if with surprise, if you don't turn around and say, Hey, waves coming, but

(23:52):
you're going to be mad at the wave and you're going be mad at the boat.
Whatever, you know, at some point you have to take some personal responsibility for yourown.
experiences, but not like in a blame.
You have to remove that kind of shame of having, being a part of a group that you didn'task to be a part of.

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like, welcome to, to living in America.
But there's so much more beauty and like stuff that I think white women could get out ofit.
It just has to, you have to acknowledge white women first and then be like, okay guys.
So the way we do this, the way we do that, because you can, you know, like once you ringthe bell, you can't unring it.

(24:43):
Like you start to, I made a video about the knitter thing.
And I said, I think people, just like a funny hot take, I think people should startcalling themselves fiber artists instead of knitter.
Because when white people say, hey, knitters, and then people are like, well, I'm hereright now.
And it's so cute in there.
No one's mad in that comment section.

(25:04):
I think that's cute, a bunch of white women.
And then talking about the little things where we pour, it's called a jigger, but likethey were like, we need something else for this name too.
And that's.
Does knitting cult lady sound bad?
Okay.
I'm like, I can change it to crocheting cult lady.

(25:28):
It's the ER, yeah, yeah.
if you'd like digger could get, I think that's fine.
I don't know, but.
say that, it's the way we say that R sound.
And by the way, I know exactly what you're talking about because I have a hard time withthat R sound because I didn't grow up in America, that hard R, right?
So like names like Rory and words like rural and hierarchical are really hard for me tosay.

(25:54):
And of course the word hierarchical appears in all of my books.
And I always spell it wrong.
don't know if I've been now I realized, there's so much like conversation about highnessin, in American culture, like being on top and big, upper hand looking down on people and
like higher Archie.

(26:15):
Right.
So like, like that higher part and getting high, but also like you get hired.
That's just, you made that word up and it's still like a part of it.
you.
climb the ladder and you whatever and fired I think it's a whole other thing like the fireelement being a part of and they're always putting out fires you work in a corporate

(26:39):
office there's no fire.
There's something else I was thinking about this analogy when you, when I was reading thechapter is like, the higher you go, the less stable everything is, right?
Like, the higher up a ladder is, the more it's rocking, the more like, the more you themore also important it is that you stay on, right?

(27:06):
If you're on a two foot ladder, it's not that important if you fall off.
If you're on a 12 foot ladder, it's very, very crucial to not fall off.
Very, yes, and like you get more nervous of walking towards the edge.
It's scarier than if you weren't because typically if it's down there, you're not going tobe fearful of looking over the edge, but you get further and further from feeling

(27:28):
comfortable as you're higher up because the risk is so much higher, which with every step.
Yeah, I used to also just say, and they don't got no sunscreen and no one's bringing it.
They're all sunburned.
You got great views, but you're burning and you're miserable and like, you look down oneverybody.
Also the whole 30 foot view thing.
If you're not in combat, why is that a better way to look at things?

(27:51):
If you're not trying to spot the people and get like, I think you're better off lowerwhere you can see people and they don't look like ants and you can, you know, know what's
going on.
But instead of like getting a plane.
Yeah, if you're not in combat, why are you up in a guard tower?
Why do need like a sniper shot angle to be like, how do we, what do we got here?

(28:15):
No, but we're, are, it's all a game.
Like I don't know.
It's, don't know if the game is like, gotcha.
Everything is about making sure, but it's that paternalism of protection and permissionand like all these different walls and boundaries, high hats and high homes.

(28:37):
I was saying like, he's pointy.
You love the pointy ass.
and everything's taller.
The president, if you're taller, be president.
what?
And we're supposed to look up to these, these fathers.
who, how were they as fathers?
Did we ever find out?
I'm, I'm actually pretty curious.

(28:57):
enslaved his own children and he's one of the founding fathers.
right, right.
But here's the problem when you say that is that white people see you have like, yeah,well that too, but also that white people come in for Thomas Jefferson for some reason,
and they love to talk about how that, well, they loved each other.

(29:19):
And, and, and see like, where does that come from?
How this automatic response I've never had, right?
So I am not a
a community member necessarily, well, it can be to white women, but I'm not, I don't havethat experience.
So, and learning about your privilege comes with hearing the experiences of, or your lackof privilege comes from hearing about the privilege of other people.

(29:48):
When you go, how long is it going to take you to get ready for this thing?
And they're like, I'll just go.
I'm like, what?
You're not going to map out your stops and your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, I don't know that until I hear it.
So.
There is benefits to talking about your experiences that you don't know yet until you doit.
And it's from white women who had no idea that they were telling me a bunch of privilegedstuff that I learned a speaking point that I can connect us on.

(30:16):
It's not a shameful thing.
It has to be something you talk about.
the Africa thing, have I told you about this?
So in my prologue of my book, I'm a little girl and I'm standing on the Brazilian shorelooking out into the ocean, like wistfully, right?
Cause I'm a prisoner in a cult, like wondering if I could see Africa.

(30:38):
And look, it was beautifully written, okay?
And then when we did the sensitivity review, it was pointed out to me that this is calledthe infantilization of Africa.
Right?
I didn't say I was standing on the shore of South America, looking across to Africa.
I said I was standing on the Brazilian shore, looking across to, turns out Angola, right?

(31:01):
Is what's across from there.
Which I didn't even know, right?
Like it was true to my experience as a white kid living in Brazil that the way kids inAmerica talk about digging a hole to China at the beach, like we would talk about swimming
across to Africa.
So I went and looked it up and then it was so interesting because then like people,Angola, when you say Angola, like it kind of stops you, right?

(31:27):
It takes you out and you're like, why Angola?
And then people that know Angola speaks Portuguese are like, is this some kind ofconnection?
And all of this stuff, I decided that I'm gonna like, whatever, let's do the thing thathurts white supremacy, right?
Even if it messes up the prologue, but just talking about it.
And I think like,

(31:47):
for some reason, this one is not that connected to shame for people.
So people kind of accept it, right?
Like when I say that to people, I'm like, so then the very next summer, my husband goes toKenya for six weeks, right?
And like the entire six weeks, I just had to keep catching myself from saying Africa,right?
Kenya.

(32:07):
And like, his trip got changed from Vietnam to Kenya.
And like, I wouldn't have been saying, he's in Asia, right?
I would have been saying,
He's in Vietnam.
And it's so like embedded in our culture.
But it's like, it's one of those things that like, once you see it, you'll see iteverywhere.
And then you can just bring it up with other people and talk about it.

(32:32):
And like, that's how it should go.
Right?
Like it should literally, it should literally be this simple white ladies like, you know,the other day I got told, sacred cow is maybe like,
a bit offensive, right?
Because there are millions of people in the world to whom cows are sacred.
And I was immediately like, okay, I get it.

(32:56):
My only problem is I need a term for like, holding something sacred.
So I decided to come up with the term sacred moose.
And that's what I use now.
I'm like, it gets the point across, makes people laugh a little and like,
If it gets the point across, if it communicates what you are desiring, then it's a goodthing.

(33:22):
But that is my, it's interesting.
The whole bad words thing I have up here too.
It's like, what is your understanding of like communism as a bad word?
as a, you know what I mean?
Like just today I realized, cause I didn't understand the.

(33:43):
But I also didn't understand people didn't like Jews to like a Jewish person.
I thought it brought me a little bit more privilege, which I guess sometimes it didanyway, but like communism, cause they were like Martin Luther King, he was accused of
communism, but it feels like they were just saying it was like when black wasn't allowedanymore.
They just picked a thing because why would that be fear?

(34:06):
Like this person has these beliefs that
This is how the economics should go?
That's a scary thing?
because we're programmed.
That was one of the interesting things for me going into the American military because Ilived in Brazil, which is a socialist country.

(34:30):
Not at all what people think about with, you know, socialists, like medical care, right?
Like a lot of the things are socialist.
You can't take your kids out of the country without permission, et cetera.
But like,
So I joined the army and as you said, like communism is a bad word, socialism is a badword, but like the military is a socialist organization.

(34:59):
Like that's literally how it works.
And even now on the outside, it's like as veterans, like we have, we're the only ones withuniversal healthcare, you know, we're the only ones with like free education.
That actually, that's, okay.

(35:20):
Yeah, that's gaslighting.
How dare they?
Because you think, what's more American?
But it's also, you're wearing camouflage in the city.
That doesn't.
This is the conversation we don't wanna have is that the military is a cult.
We've just decided that 1 % of our population needs to be in a cult in order to protectthe rest of us.

(35:44):
We just don't wanna say it in words like that.
the rest of us have to go thank you for the service just because they're wearingcamouflage where they're we're not in the woods sir we're not in the woods do you realize
how crazy it was that they were like war on drugs let's wear camouflage in the hood whatare you doing
seen it, but you probably, there was a thing called digital camouflage.

(36:09):
So it was camouflage colors, but it was all little squares like this.
So it looked like a olden days video game, right?
Like it was all pixelated.
And it was like some bro, some dude, I'm sure, like decided that because of imagery, ablasey-blah, a computer.

(36:31):
At some point the military decided that it was important for camouflage to be pixelated.
And like that was the uniform I wore for my entire career.
I was going to the desert in which they still gave us jungle camouflage.
The Marines at least had desert camo.

(36:55):
The Army, no.
It's just like, you know, sometimes...
Faces on mountains.
You know, faces on mountains in real life.
is that the Navy's camouflage is blue.
Blue camouflage!

(37:15):
you're trying to be camouflaged in the ocean.
Get up.
And look, the reality is this, as Navy people will tell you, they're like, you fall off anaircraft carrier, unless you're in bright orange and have a lot of luck, no one's ever

(37:41):
gonna see you again.
It doesn't matter what color your uniform is, but it's still hilarious.
What are you doing?
What is the goal?
Why are we here?
And why does everyone else have to say thank you?
Cause you did it.
I'm not feeling grateful for you random stranger because you're wearing this outfit.

(38:06):
Never got that.
But also that was never like a part of, don't know.
I didn't grow up with that.
only, these are like the, maybe the autism traits coming out later where I'm like, this isweird that people do this.
I learned from a white woman.
Anyway, she was saying, oh, my daughter like waves to police officers.
Cause like it's high in respect.

(38:27):
That's like what they taught her or something.
That's like part of white culture or something.
You see police officer, you wave, say hello.
He's doing a great job or something.
I'm not sure.
never, I was what?
30 or something when I heard this and I'm thinking, uh-oh.

(38:47):
I don't want that little girl to have any black friends.
I don't want that.
Now, there's just so many problems with it, but I also didn't know.
I know my mom used to like wave to the crossing guards every time, but that was, and Ithought that was weird, but that's crossing guards.
That's as close as I can understand that.

(39:09):
you're teaching your daughters that also.
my God, that element just scared me.
That police officers are to be like respected and revered and they're going to grow up.
Do you know what police officers do to their wives?
Demographically?
Not great stuff.

(39:29):
And so you got her, he's gonna protect me and keep me safe.
Wrong!
Actually, more scary for her than for any black woman.
Cause you know, I'm just saying I don't want her to think she can ever have.
little black girls coming over to her house and feeling sick.

(39:52):
But to even bring that up in the conversation that you're having with me and us as a groupafter George Floyd and stuff in this corporate setting and you're like, I don't know what
to do now with my daughter and she's with the cops and I don't know, should she?
We're not sharing realities at that point.

(40:12):
Which is okay.
Which is okay.
think this like purity of children concept is a super whiteness thing.
know, like I always said to my husband, like it is an entirely American idea thatteenagers are disgusted by the concept of their parents having sex.

(40:40):
Like that.
is taught to us in the media.
I've never seen that in another country.
it's where you're more likely to share a wall, right, with your parents or just like livein much closer quarters, right?
And I, it's just, and anyways, going back to this, like the purity of children and thetopics they can't be raised around.

(41:10):
Right?
And like, I had somebody very close to me basically stop talking to me because I amtalking about stuff publicly and they thought that you had to just ignore all your trauma
in order to raise a child.
And I was like that, my child gets things explained to her at age appropriate levels.

(41:33):
but she lives in a house where serious topics are being discussed all of the time becausemy work is very serious.
And so of course, know, mommy what's a cult conversation was had at six and then by sixand a half, she was calling me a cult leader whenever she was mad at me.
You know, but like children can be taught, children can be taught what,

(41:59):
rape and assault are and how putting your hands on other people is not okay.
Children can be taught that, you know, police are dangerous.
Right, right, it's just like this idea that you have to avoid heavy topics with children,I think.
First of all, it's probably really confusing to the children, because they're living inthe world where serious things are going on all the time.

(42:22):
There's a reason they're asking.
and they're not, it's not just comfort that they need.
Comfort isn't the only thing ever.
Sometimes I do compare it like people how they treat their dogs.
Like Cesar Millan used to say, Americans have trouble with like dog behavior because theyjust give affection, affection, affection, not affection, exercise, and discipline.
And like natural consequences are being controlled where you think these kids shouldn'thave to have this experience of learning this thing that might make them uncomfortable.

(42:52):
negative experiences aren't bad for you.
That's not like a thing.
Negative experiences are part of living, especially if you're living in a cult experienceto be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, to anything, even to a kid
experiencing seeing something negative and you're going, well, it's not really bad.

(43:16):
And I think there's the binary thinking of adult and child that you are doing yourself-service and labeling child innocent, like controlling consequences.
Not necessary.
And I think like drinking age and like, that's how we get so much binge drinking here.

(43:36):
Because we're like, my God, we got access, we got to drink it all.
This was one, this reminds me of your thing about when white girls go out, this is a groupversus black girls, right?
So I, in college, just having turned 21, went to Germany, where, of course, drinking ageis 18.

(43:58):
Right, and so in our school, Wednesdays, people had full-day seminars, right?
So if you didn't have a Wednesday seminar, you had a day off.
So every Tuesday, there was a pub crawl, and it started.
in the college cafeteria, right?
And then went through the town and like everyone's looking out for the college students,the college students are all looking out for each other.

(44:22):
The 18 year olds who are brand new get to hang out with the 22 year olds who know whatthey're doing.
And it was lovely.
And I was like, you know, my experience at college were like,
I got a, first of all, I should have freaking known the autism then, but like I got a fakeID when I was 20 years old, just so I could go sit in a quiet martini bar instead of like

(44:43):
the loud, you know, place that you could sneak into.
But like a big part of the reason was most of my friends were older and you couldn't hangout, right?
Like if you're in American college, it's split between, you know, freshmen and sophomoreswho can hang out with each other and junior and seniors who can hang out with each other.
Hmm.

(45:04):
bring that up, right, the only thing people are gonna say is, well, maybe you don't wantthe 18 year old women hanging out with the 22 year old.
Like, no, you want the freshmen hanging out with the seniors who can advise them, who theysee graduating, who they see going through all these things, right?
Like having this division and come on, like we're all drinking, like we're all at the sameschool.

(45:28):
We're all going to the same parties.
We're all drinking anyway, right?
You're just making it.
So with the binge drinking, right?
Until I was 21, it was like you get together at the apartment, you drink as much as youcan, and then you go to the club.
As soon as I turned 21, it's like, now you have to buy your own liquor.
And like, it's not that fun because you can do it whenever you want.

(45:51):
And that should have been the point the whole time, but you're controlling theconsequences and saying, well, now it's the secret thing that you shouldn't and you do
have to do, and this is what adults do, and if you want to be cool.
Okay, so then you get the, I'm drinking a bunch at home because blah, blah, I don't wantto have to pay for it, I don't want have to get carded.

(46:13):
Then you go to the place and then a man's like, hey, here's a drink.
And you're like, cool, I got a drink, I didn't have to do all that stuff for it.
but you drank enough for the whole thing, remember?
But that's not what happens when you get there.
People buy a drink, you can't just stand there without a drink.
And it's just bad, it's just a bad time.

(46:33):
It's the wrong reasons to do things, but giving access, controlling access is colonialism.
It's like needing it.
If you like something, you want it, it's yours, you gotta have it.
And it's not ever to assume someone's gonna share with you.
No, you gotta take it from them.
You want access to a snowblower?

(46:55):
Well, there's one guy on the street that has one.
No, but you don't know, so now we all have to buy one.
It's the same thing all the time.
fostering that is part of the cult thing, is isolating you from each other and saying,yeah, but no, you don't want to have to do this and if and that, and you create all these
things in your head and you're not focused on the reality of what's happening.

(47:19):
Is this a bad word?
Why?
policing these people saying this word.
Who does it help if we're not allowed to say the word rape without feeling the need todefend ourselves?
Why is white supremacy a term that people are uncomfortable with?
When it was the thing, you know, but
we got faces on mountains guys and people dying in the street.

(47:42):
There's types of people who allow certain things to happen
and we have to be like, okay, maybe let's be
un-ladylike and unprofessional and inappropriate a little bit more because beingappropriate and professional and polite and all that stuff, faces on mountains.
You think Elon Musk is any different?

(48:04):
I can't find paper.
I'm always like keeping stuff with me now because I'm like, yeah.
and people dying in the streets.
Yeah.
Both of those people...
Which one do you think, Eli?
feel like I'm gonna ask you if I can put that line on my musical at some point.
That's why we, because that's, need like these, I'm just stating observational facts,right?

(48:31):
But when we, you have to allow yourself to go and rehumanize all of the people, not justlike this group, this was a bad group.
And so I just have to find, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
I, you know, this cult is bad.
Let me just go to the, and unfortunately the systems are not designed the way you woulddesign them.

(48:52):
to help the people of the country.
Because if someone is at the same time making faces on mountains, when you know what wasgoing on in the country, it wasn't a great time for a lot of people.
And they were like, hey, we're doing this.
Doesn't that sound like something that could happen today?
I don't know, I could see it.
They went to space for 10 minutes.

(49:13):
They have all the money.
Space pointy, you know, they couldn't get to space back then they said put our faces ashigh up as possible
This is what I want to say, like, I don't feel like there's a significant differencebetween the Washington Monument and Jeff Bezos' penis rocket.
Like, same thing.
they just couldn't, they didn't have the access then to actually go up there.

(49:35):
We were like, we got you.
Who can, we don't need this earth thing that we live independent.
It's a beautiful, amazing resource that has given me the ability to do this.
No, I want to go up higher.
I want to go see it from up in a place I've never, shut up.
Like it's, it's, it's cold.

(49:55):
It's cold.
I think, what's the point?
You know, you know, the biggest, tallest, highest PP building.
I, know, and it comes from the same thing that creates religions, the hierarchy.
It's in the word just spelt stupid.
And like, I, I live kind of high up in a building, which, you know, it's part of a thing.

(50:17):
But when I look and the tallest things are churches all the time, it's always like, butbarely for any reason, nothing's happening at the top there, but it's the pointiest.
It's the tallest and I can see it.
More than other stuff.
Okay.
Just not taking things so personally and so you can see it better.

(50:41):
It's like just.
Do you know, if you don't know this, you're gonna lose your mind, no building in DC isallowed to be taller than the Washington Monument?
That's why DC doesn't look like New York.
Ha ha ha ha.

(51:01):
They make rules.
That's a rule someone was like, guys, this is important.
This is important.
This is important.
gonna build this penis statue and then we're gonna say nobody is allowed to be bigger.
Because it's one thing to build it.
It is one thing to build it.
It is another to be comfortable enough to say, nobody else better even think about beingbigger than me.

(51:29):
Okay.
Don't even think about it.
Don't talk about it.
Natural consequences.
No, it doesn't exist.
You're not allowed actually.
Anything bigger, chop it off.
It's against the, it's against the rule.
So that, I mean, to me, I think tall.
I don't know, skyscraper's weird.
Not a good use of our energy and time either.

(51:51):
I think skyline, when you think, I remember, I live right by the George Washington Bridgein New Jersey growing up.
And you know, she's skyline.
I just remember being like, yeah, people are working in those buildings.
Like a lot of times in the lights, and that's a lot, that's a lot of lights, guys.
In the Empire State Building with its fancy lights and it's a little.

(52:13):
A skyline is a made up thing.
We have mountains and then they were like, guess what?
We're on the mountains, but we have beautiful stuff.
And then they were like, but what if we made our own thing out of making tall buildings?
that's supposed to be something to go see, put on postcards and stuff.

(52:36):
It's never done.
It's always in construction.
It's never just a gorgeous thing.
There's always orange and building and cranes and stuff.
It's so pretty.
Is it?
Light pollution.
Congestion.
Great, great.
Americans?

(52:57):
I don't even think the majority of Americans understand light pollution.
That's such, that, that's like when I realized, my God, some white people don't meet blackpeople to their adults.
I'm having one of those moments where it's like, yeah, no, of course, right?

(53:17):
Cause factually the country's so big and segregation and stuff, but yeah, light pollutionis so real.
we just have so many cities, you know, so it's like yes some people live far enough awaybut it's still it's like I mean it like once you see the sky in Afghanistan at night like

(53:39):
you'll never think anywhere else has a lot of stars ever again, you know and just like
And what does that do to our experience?
know, like that's kind of an analogy in itself.
It's like, there is so much already here, but we're the, all these manufactured values,skyline, ooh.

(54:03):
But it so happens that the skyline is actually making the island sink and you can't seethe stars and you can't breathe and you can't live anywhere that's bigger than a shoe box.
But.
Yeah.
And when someone knocks down one of those towers, kills thousands of people.
Right, right, right.
But then as a result, we were like, guess what?
They killed thousand people.
That's what we're going to do about that.

(54:25):
Kill more people.
I don't think that was, could we, can we do something else about that?
Can we find a little, no, you know, we're Americans.
We don't stand for this.
even in Brazil where I grew up, so Brazil is on one tectonic plate, so Brazil does nothave natural disasters.

(54:48):
But Brazil has mudslides, which is a man-made natural disaster.
and it's bonkers to me.
You know what else is weird?
I think a mudslide's a drink.
And I think that's terrible now that, cause I think that's the only thing I know aboutthat, cause I argue with it.

(55:13):
Why is that a drink?
No?
Mary Tudor, who killed, you know, tried to burn England back to Catholicism.
Although she still killed less people than Henry VIII.
yeah, it's literally she was called Bloody Mary and that's what the drink is named after.
And we drink it for fun on Sundays.

(55:37):
Yeah.
You know, we're just like...
And then you like just look at our paper money that we're just like, yeah, let's murderover this, a lot of this.
It says white people on paper work.
It's like white, these guys on mountains, on paper, on time.

(55:58):
And we're like, well.
It's obviously not as, you know, there's a lot that goes into that, but at the end of theday, they're just different dudes.
They're just men.
They're just men, but because they're in black and white and on green, they're like, yeah,but these were.

(56:21):
Fathers.
Dookie, have you met a father?
They're not getting great like raps even right now.
Yeah, but they founded, they founded even that language right now is pissing me off.
They founded this country.

(56:44):
They founded it.
That's not even good English.
They founded it.
of all, I once wrote an essay called, I had to teach my husband how to parent becausesociety didn't.
Because literally, yeah.
But like, our kid is nine, right?

(57:04):
So we've been working on deconstructing fatherhood versus motherhood for nine years.
And he does a pretty good job, but I'm still not surely full.
that he comprehends that his kid is his responsibility all the time.

(57:24):
It's not like primary, secondary.
and and you know, I watched this happen with so many of my girlfriends when they were likewhat we were equal when we got married, like what changed and what changed was literally
like they're like, here's a baby, we're gonna drop it.

(57:47):
And and the men don't know what to do.
And so they would just stand there paralyzed and
The moms just are not gonna let the baby fall on the ground.
So we step forward and we do the thing, right?
Like nobody ever had to teach me or remind me that my child is my responsibility all ofthe time.

(58:07):
Like I knew that once I pushed her out of my body.
And I just don't think, you know, it's like little things, right?
Like, he'll be like, do you mind if I go sailing for eight hours on Saturday?
And it's like,
Question the question is hey, can you take care of our kid for eight hours this Saturday?

(58:31):
because like
do you mind?
That's a tone setting if I have ever heard of it.
Is there like, can I ask a question?
No.
tell you this man works very, very hard to be a 50 % parent, right?
Like I have so much respect for him.
I'm just not quite sure he realizes that his kid is his responsibility all of the time.

(58:57):
not my, know, JD Vance said her kids about his wife.
I know, but I believe it.
yeah, he was he literally said the Usha and her kids and like, I kind of feel like all menfeel like that a little bit.
I wouldn't doubt it because they didn't make them, right?

(59:21):
And there is a different experience in making them than not.
And society hasn't put in them that they become something different once they become afather.
Because the founding fathers needed no proof, no proof of anything.
So, but in a...

(59:43):
communal society, I, cause the whole thing about communism, I think that's interesting.
It's just like the fear sparked and I would call it communalism if I were gonna callsomething I would want to live in because more about the relationship, not the actual
commune.
we've, it's a commune, it's more about communalism.
But they're not,

(01:00:06):
you shouldn't have to give up who you are.
Like in a perfect society and communalism, he would be able to go do that.
And you wouldn't feel complete responsibility as a result.
Like there would be layers of different types of like lateral support, I think.
And men still feel entitled to some of that because they can.

(01:00:32):
They can feel that.
I don't know how I feel about white women sometimes where I'm like, what happens here?
And it's realizing you've had a different experience.
I can get you to empathize and care and to share my reality a little bit more, but itisn't your natural state of being to think about things the way I think about things.

(01:00:53):
And that's tough, but your resentment is going to build in because you're not supported inthe same way.
or yeah, cause they just have it's like, it's like a secondary.
you don't have that visceral experience, you know, like even I remember my husband was soafraid of Leaving the baby in the car right that we did he did that thing for a while

(01:01:20):
where you get in your car and you put the shoe you're one of your shoes in the back withthe baby because you're not gonna get out and walk away without a shoe, but I was always
just like I look I have
unmitigated ADHD and I've never been able to remember anything.
But like I've never forgotten my baby anywhere.
You know, like I never, there was another one that was so interesting.

(01:01:45):
So when you deploy and you're in a war zone, right?
Like everyone has a weapon all of the time.
Like you either have a rifle or a sidearm, but like you have your personal assignedweapon.
And if you leave that weapon behind,
your career is gonna be seriously impacted.
Okay, so it's like a big, big deal.

(01:02:07):
And like men, all of the time in the first couple of weeks, like you're dealing as thesecurity officer, I'm dealing with people losing their weapons, blah, blah, blah, all this
stuff.
And like never saw a woman do it.
And as soon as I came back on deployment, from deployment, I realized why.
Because they took my rifle and I traded it for a purse, right?

(01:02:27):
Like we already have this thing.
mmmm
It is on us all the time that we cannot leave behind.
That is like our life, right?
And so we just have that skill and men just couldn't.
And then they get home and they're like freaking out for the first like couple weeksbecause they don't have their weapon.

(01:02:49):
the purse is interesting.
I just think now of the, what that does to us.
And is that better?
I don't think so.
Right.
this one.
It's part of my effort to prove that everything is indeed about sexism.
My car, right?
My car is one of those cars where you push it and it just starts, right?
If you have the key on you, right?

(01:03:10):
And it would never work with me.
And I would have to find it and dig it out and put it in the slot and get it to work,right?
And then my husband's a pilot.
So I am rarely in the driver's seat if he is there and conscious.
Okay, so one day I think I was picking him up from a surgery.
So I'm driving.

(01:03:31):
So I get in the car, I get in the car, I sit down, I throw my purse on the passenger seat.
And he goes, is that what you usually do?
Because the car is made, of course, for a man.
So it is made for you to have your key in the driver's seat.

(01:03:52):
and by the way, until they made the Apple Watch,
They did not realize that wearables, wearable technology like tracking your stuff, allthis stuff didn't work for women.
Because we don't wear our phones on us most of the time.
Because they haven't given us usable pockets.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But like even our source of like carrying your ID or carrying your proof of personhood onus and then externalizing it to a purse and putting it here and always needing to be

(01:04:24):
mindful of it and like what happens if someone steals, you know, I just wonder about that.
Like what's going on?
Because I get that sense even when I don't have a purse, it's like something feels wrong.
is, you I love an all-inclusive resort for many reasons, but one of the reasons is becauseit's so nice to just walk out of your room with an armband and nothing else and like not

(01:04:45):
have to worry about things.
And I'm like, but this is men all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how much more energy and like ability you feel to do stuff, even when I would justlike not wear heels.
And I would feel so much more like confident when I was like kneeling down and stuff.
Because I could like dance and feel comfortable and not worry about where's the nearestseat.

(01:05:08):
Because I wanted to be able to sit down because I really hate when my feet hurt.
It's like I'm very little tolerant of that.
This is one of the things I feel like we will not be able to say that we do not live in apatriarchy until there is a version of corporate wear for women that is not a high heel.
Because this is ridiculous.

(01:05:29):
I think I was alive and I was like, I need white women to start referring to men's suitsas pantsuits.
Cause I think that would just be great.
Because what do you mean pantsuit?
Why is it a pantsuit when I wear it?
It's a suit.
As if the original suit for me is not pants.
I just think pantsuit is a funny word and men should wear pantsuits.

(01:05:54):
And like,
default.
It's just, I am further and further, as I finished Corporate Cults finally, and realizinga lot of his results are just like, know, not, answers to it is like, have independence,
have a sense of self.
You know that your choices are yours.
Did you know that your choices are yours?
I loved his book.

(01:06:14):
This was such a white man book, right?
It was just like, I'm gonna show you every way that corporations are cults then I'm justgonna say, deal with it, take care of yourself, like, what?
It was, it's like, this is how corporate environments are so bad for you.
This is really bad for people working in there so bad.

(01:06:36):
If, some of them aren't that much, but you can really be culty and you could see it.
And, anyway, at the end, here's a test to see if you are in a corporate goal and if youare, well, stop, cut it out.
Anyway, there's no like,
corporations should not do this, there is no people, there needs to be regulation.

(01:06:59):
It's like, hey America, do this.
Like the wrong people got the book.
and this is part of why people are so uncomfortable with me and my work, right?
And they'll like roll their eyes at calling me a scholar or an expert, but like, becauseI'm like, yeah, the military is a cult.
End of story.
Like there's no comfort pill.

(01:07:21):
There's no, it's just like, it is exactly a cult.
Every, every, I mean,
Every cult expert has had to give an answer, right?
As soon as you start talking about cults in American English, you're gonna be asked, whatabout the military and what about AA, right?

(01:07:42):
That in and of itself is if as soon as we define a cult, a certain group comes to mind, weshould be listening to that, right?
But like, and this is why I had to like leave trying to do corporate culture consulting.
Because like, yeah, everyone wants to laugh at me telling you like, you know, I used to dothis talk, like what we can learn about leadership from cults.

(01:08:09):
And the first five to 10 minutes, I'm just gonna give you standup about how yourorganization is a cult.
But then they don't want me to like point out all the real issues and be like, this iswhat you can do.
They just want me to be like, okay, so.
because it's to check something off, it is not to actually change anything.
It is to present better, not to actually do anything.

(01:08:32):
That's why there's no conflict, actual management.
It's just like removal.
And this is how we do it.
We make this public display of listening and make sure everyone heard that we're listeningand we move on and we move forward and we keep going.
Right.
And that's it.
That's done.
But that's always been the case with the stock.

(01:08:53):
These men and the stock market is not real.
They made it up, right.
And they believe in it so hard.
And they literally hired these researchers, you know, at the stock place to say, how canwe determine who is successful and who's not?
And they were like, actually, we looked at all your stuff and you could have picked arandom generator and that would have been better than all these people that you're doing.

(01:09:13):
And they were like, Whoa, nuts.
Anyway, so how do we, give raises?
They're like, you, you heard what we just said.
Like, yeah, yeah, nuts, crazy.
But since it's a lot of work, who do we give bonuses to?
And at that point, you have to realize that's what y'all are doing to a certaindemographics.
Like, who are you speaking to and why?

(01:09:35):
And once you realize they're not listening, take that and then bring that somewhere.
I don't know.
Do something with that, because that's nuts.
This is what made me really smile about your chapter where you're like, because I feel thesame way.
It's like, I just gave you 11 chapters.

(01:09:55):
No, I just gave you 10 chapters about all of the problems with groups.
Then I gave you like four pages about why the concept of good groups is not really athing.
And like, you still want to know about good groups.
Like you're like, you're not, you're not listening.

(01:10:16):
that's listening for something else.
And that's really, it's a wild thing to know is happening.
And it's infuriating because it's like, you're looking at people who are asking, like itseems like they really want answers.
You give them and then they're like, it's almost like when people say listen to blackwomen, they're like, okay, to do what?

(01:10:39):
Can you do the first part first?
they want me to mention some groups and there are like some groups that I feel like areokay right now, right?
Like Patagonia or Costco, but like you are bonkers if you think I'm gonna put that in mybook that I want to be timeless and forever, right?
Like Enron, Enron had the word integrity carved in marble in front of their headquarters.

(01:11:05):
See, and that's thing, like the learning about stuff and not learning from it is classiccultiness to me.
It's like, you know, they learn about something being wrong and then they amend, which islike that erasism.
They just white it out as if we can't see that strip of white out you just put.
What was under that?
The N word?
Wow.
We need to know that.
Don't just white it out.

(01:11:28):
Acknowledge it.
Write a chapter on we used to do this because this and now we realize this.
That could be it.
You don't even have to have next steps.
And this is our new definition of whatever.
But there's no acknowledgement.
It's like that parent that comes back and they're like, you hungry?
Yes, I know that that means you're sorry, but actually, I don't know.

(01:11:51):
I don't think that that's a good thing.
They should want to acknowledge your humanity in that situation and consequences and haveto be accountable or whatever.
But it's like...
If all you're listening for is, I a good or am I a bad?
Or what are you saying about me for me to defend or, you know, you're already coming froma, I'm not enough standpoint.

(01:12:19):
I don't know what to do about that.
I want better for you.
video about blondness, right?
And like how, like literally I am telling a story about why I am going off of blonde after20 years and like the things that I learned and the amount of women that were like, well,

(01:12:43):
blah, blah, this is my situation.
Is it still okay for me to be blonde?
Right, right.
like what like I am NOT your
What does that even mean?
Like, and I just started saying to them, like, no matter what your situation is, you don'tget to opt out of the history of blondness and white supremacy.

(01:13:08):
It's totally up to you what you deal with that information with now, right?
But like, what they want is for me to comfort them.
Like, they want me to say that even though this is my journey, like, no, you're fine.
Like.
Which is weird.
Yeah.
same energy that people come to me about good groups with.
Anyway, so I've just started being like, people are like, what about good groups?

(01:13:31):
And I'm like, I don't study those.
Yeah, that's, I like that.
I like that.
That's not, what do mean?
Because we're actually talking about the impacts of things and it's like, now you want tofocus on this other thing that I, I gave you all of this.
It is for digestion and time and like, now you sit with it and you decide what you do withthat information.

(01:13:53):
And if it's nothing and it's continuing to keep your hair blonde, then that's what it is.
But that's now a part of your journey as well.
and it might start to make you uncomfortable when you keep spending money and energythinking, why am I doing this?
That's just, it's supposed to impact you.
That's it.
You don't have to publicly display your new knowledge with, now I'm also like this, causeI'm allowed.

(01:14:15):
But when I say, hey, white women, something, something, and they call, we're not allowedto something anymore, allowed.
And you're actually doing it right now.
And you know, they say like, imagine if I blah, blah, blah.
You're doing it, right?
You're doing the thing.
You know, that paternalism and permission seeking and protection based on never doinganything wrong, I wrote that here, but it's like you're never doing anything.

(01:14:44):
this permission seeking, right?
Like I've started to say to people, like if somebody is pulling you aside as an adult andtelling you that you shouldn't be acting this way, like what, you're in some sort of
charismatic leadership authority, right?
Because like, unless they're the law, who are they to say that you should or shouldn't bedoing that, right?

(01:15:09):
Like that's a culty thing.
In your church where an elder could just,
come up to you and tell you that they don't like what you're doing or like how you'redressed.
Like that's the same as in the army and in cults, you know.
paternalism.
No one's more adulty than you.
If you're an adult, and I'm not talking 18, I'm talking you're an adult.
Asking another adult, what am I allowed to wear and do and allow?

(01:15:32):
What?
That's paternalism.
To even think.
Or like when people try to tell me what to do, I'm like, don't me what to do.
Are you, are you, I'm an adult.
I'm a grown internet stranger, but people genuinely out of weaponized concern, you know,will.
come to you and let you know, don't think be un-ladylike, be unprofessional, but call thebluff.

(01:15:54):
Like nothing's going to happen to you.
You've been doing all this silencing and self-censorship for so long, seeking permission.
And they have terrible guidelines for what you're allowed to do.
Like they're always going to default.
No, I didn't need permission to be white woman whisperer.
I just realized, I don't need permission.
just say it.
That's what they do.
They never ask for permission because they're the fathers.

(01:16:16):
They just said, put our...
faces on that mountain right now.
The people will love it.
this statistic that women won't apply to a job unless they have 80 % or more of thequalifications and men will do it with 20%, like that literally changed, like that changed
my whole life.
I'm just like, yeah, no, I'm doing this.
don't like.

(01:16:36):
yeah, and it changed for me in a couple steps because first it was like, wow, that'sgreat.
And I would just start applying for a self, but then you start to realize, wait, wait,wait.
There's a reason because of consequences that they do that.
There is a lack of consequences for them in lying on their resumes or going for jobsthey're not qualified for.
People aren't questioning their reason for being there.

(01:16:57):
So women kind of have to do all these things.
It's not just like we're insecure, blah, blah.
It's a bunch of stuff and we shouldn't be there.
to be honest, I don't like it there.
They're lying, they're lying to you, they make you lie, and you don't even realize why,because you're...
66 degrees, so you're always freezing because.
it's just, it's a, you're whispering hi to each other in the hallways.

(01:17:17):
You're lying.
Once I realized people, I was like, what is this?
I hate this.
It's just so, hi, hi.
Oh, gotcha.
We're on the same schedule.
Go to the bathroom.
know, don't go there.
Don't go there.
It's well, do what you want, but I wouldn't.
And it will encourage permission seeking from systems that want you to be a product andnot a person.

(01:17:42):
They're never going to say, go for it.
They're going to just do it.
But that means just do what we said.
You know, even thinking about the term spinster.
and learning where it came from and like also like when we make things, they find it to belike, ugh, whatever.
Because the difference between making and like making people do something.

(01:18:04):
Women make people, men make people do stuff, buy stuff, take stuff, whatever.
And stop it.
Like we have to stop looking to them.
as the fathers of the country.
And I think the paternalism is something white women should be looking into.

(01:18:27):
Cause they also use it, know, when it's like, well, if they really wanted to get theirmessage out, they would say it like this.
think that that's weird.
Or like policing, just policing things in comment sections.
And what are we talking about?
What are we allowed to say?
Nope, nope.
Just.

(01:18:47):
a lot more on the acceptance.
And I say take it seriously, not personally, but like not too seriously.
I don't know.
I mean, I do know, but the concept, like I think questioning the words we're using, whydoes this trigger me?

(01:19:08):
Why does this make me want to ask this specific question?
Looking in the comment sections and realizing 600 white people said the same exact thingin response.
I think it's interesting, I guess, but like creepy.
When someone makes a joke about white people, you'll see the search engine is always like,well, what about black people?

(01:19:30):
And if someone says, you know, I love black women, they're like, well, what about us?
You don't do that about other things.
But like.
that I've chosen to pick a fight with is whenever I see a story about a first black personto do anything, and then I go to the comments looking for, my gosh, when's this not gonna

(01:19:54):
be news anymore?
Because you know what's the great thing about news?
When it's not new, it stops being news, right?
We don't have a lot of stories about black men in the NFL anymore.
Like, but we do when a black woman becomes the first head of whatever at Johns HopkinsMedical School.

(01:20:16):
because it's new.
Like, this one is a self-solving problem.
And it's just like...
well, you know, where does it that trigger to say that specific thing is culty?
That's where I say like, it's a cult because it's, specific.
It's the same thing every time.
And it's not just the thought they have.
It is a reaction.

(01:20:36):
It's putting it out there into saying, this is what people are willing to say.
Cause they're, they're there.
That's a choice.
And that comes from a place to do something.
I'm not sure it sounds like silencing anybody who talks about race.
What are the words that people don't expect you to say?
Say them white women.

(01:20:57):
You know, say, as a white woman.
Like it's really, but they just, why do you gotta, why, why?
That's culty.
That just expect that because that's weird.
That's creepy, McGeepey.
then you see black and black people don't say the same thing.
We can have cultural jokes, but we don't say the exact same rebuttals.

(01:21:19):
It's a sign of cultiness, right?
And there was a great YouTube video going around for a while and it was a bunch of AAmembers answering things in the exact same question and language and a bunch of then
followed by a bunch of Scientology members saying things in the exact same language.
like, this is how you know it is culty, right?

(01:21:40):
Military people say things in the exact same language.
And it's like, it.
Exactly what you said, right?
Like if it's just a legit thing, like people say it in a bunch of different ways.
When you're in a closed system and that's all you're listening to, you know, like it'sculty.
You don't realize that, but that's how it gets there.

(01:22:03):
yeah, cause how, just think of logistically or like, you know, how is it possible that youare all saying the same thing?
Like to me, I remember just being like, you guys aren't seeing this.
I had to make a video just like, just look at the comments.
And if you see 100 comments that sound exactly like yours, like that should, I don't knowif that would concern me.

(01:22:27):
You know, when we first talked to the guy, don't have any original experiences.
I think that's interesting, but the same antagonistic dismissal of something, you know,it's also like what we're saying here, right?
Or me as a, as a huh, as a, as a, as a, as I said, identifying with people will help youway more than identifying as something.

(01:22:51):
Like no one cares.
Say what you have to say, if what you have to say is important and interesting, it'llstand.
But the qualifiers now almost disqualify me from caring because you think I'm not gonna,you I don't know, you don't think enough of yourself to just talk.
You think, well, you're not gonna understand.

(01:23:13):
Well, it gives a little paternalism, like introduction to the thing.
We don't need that.
Respect your audience more.
and it's like you feel like you don't belong here, right?
Like when you're giving your when you have to show your credentials, it's because peopledon't know you or aren't thinking of you, you know, like
have to like prove, yeah, this is why I'm here guys.

(01:23:37):
Like we didn't need that.
You're looking at you.
You're at the microphone.
Okay.
So I have a question.
We knew that cause you picked up the microphone.
sorry.
I just, we have to be more self-assured, more self-secure.

(01:23:57):
funny, I've actually kind of caught myself doing this ever since doing, like working onthis book, White Women Get Ready, because I have a sticker on my water bottle.
And so every time I'll be saying something, and I'll be saying some point that we havetalked about in this or some something, and I'll be like, you know, I have a podcast with
a black woman, we're deconstructing white, and I'm like, I don't have to say that.

(01:24:19):
Like the thing that I'm saying is valid.
I don't have
Like this is exactly why.
Yeah, because it can happen to place.
know that I'm a white woman working on deconstructing internalized white supremacy forthis thing that I'm saying to be valid.
Right, both things can be and are true, but it's not like you don't need to explainyourself.

(01:24:43):
That's what you don't need to.
that, yeah, and this was something we said very early on in the podcast, but one of thetips I was given early on in deconstructing internalized white supremacy was just like, be
curious about what things surprise you.
And this is the kind of like where I'm like, notice these things now and I'm like, okay, Ididn't.

(01:25:07):
you're listening.
I didn't think that, I thought I was pretty confident in myself and saying things, butobviously in this area, I'm not.
And that's fine, right?
Like don't need to be super confident about deconstructing it yet, but sharing the thingis valid in itself, you know.
Right.
And, and building confidence is probably a building of the confidence, right?

(01:25:29):
It's practicing enough to catch us and go, I tend to do this.
because you're having the conversations that you even aren't able to catch that, you know?
So it's like, that's not a negative score or minus two or anything.
It's actually like, like as I do this, I noticed this.
And I tend to, because you come from, especially a world of credential.

(01:25:54):
of showing, proving credibility.
Like you've done all the ways you can prove credibility.
And so of course there's some like, and also this is a cool thing to do.
So it gives some backing.
for you no matter how much you prove credibility, so it doesn't matter I feel like I'mjust gonna start showing up now being like Rebecca.
I got 75 on my anti-racism score this week

(01:26:18):
And it's like, you made 75 points.
you know, like you're even on it.
Right.
So there's people and black women know that.
So it's always being also aware that when you are speaking on it and trying, you, youcan't make mistakes unless you're trying.
Right.
And they're not mistakes.

(01:26:39):
We're not a cult.
We're not, we're not with clipboard.
We're literally just like, okay.
And then if we may hear something and go, well, know, if you think it's just that it'snever, ha, gotcha.
You got you, you messed up.
You it's, but white women may want that a little bit.

(01:27:00):
Black women do not want that.
We don't want discouragement because you try it.
Like there are people who are still too, they're still saying women in general, right?
And
There's something dehumanizing about being included and ignored at the same time that Italked about with dehumanization.

(01:27:23):
When white women talk about women's issues and refuse to acknowledge their whiteness, thatis a lot more harmful, enraging, and it's in a lack of action.
So you can't even point it out because they'll say, I didn't do anything wrong.
I was talking about black women.
There's plausible deniability there.

(01:27:45):
So you speaking up as a white woman, saying white woman stuff, and then as a resultshowing that you're a white woman through white woman behavior, that's okay.
Like we know you're white.
Like you said with the whole like, you can be into rap and like black music without beinga black person, because that's not what we expected you to just be black.

(01:28:08):
We expected you to be a white girl that know how to dance moves or go white.
That's meant endearingly, right?
But if it were reverse, imagine it in reverse, that would have been terrible.
But it's not reverse.
It's not opposite.
There are completely different reasons for pointing out a flaw.

(01:28:29):
And I think people get super reactive because it's like, they caught me.
They caught me being white.
Got to turn.
I think, maybe a good place for us to end today.
But just like, because I, course, people say that to me all the time.
Well, if it was reversed, be like, but it's not.
But it's not.
if it were a verse or it already is or something, because they do to me.

(01:28:52):
Imagine if someone made black women whisper and they said, you mean like the noose orsomething?
I don't know.
It already exists.
That's why you're mad about it.
And you're saying like, we're not allowed.
I can't get away with doing what you're doing.
OK.
If it were a verse.

(01:29:13):
And people used to say if I were if the rolls were burnt at 60,
were baked at this degree and like make fun of the whole if the roles were a reversething, but like they were, I don't know, if you have to start with imagine, let it go.
you about this one.
So I was the equal opportunity officer for my battalion, right?

(01:29:34):
So like I was the DEI person, okay?
So it's Hispanic Heritage Month.
And so we are putting on a Hispanic Heritage potluck.
And I am there and I am dancing and I am running it and I love salsa dancing andliterally.

(01:29:56):
Every single white officer in my battalion was like, but Danielle is from Brazil.
She's not Hispanic.
Like, what?
And it was like, first of all, I'm just the person in this job.
Second of all, you can just go enjoy Hispanic culture without being Hispanic.

(01:30:24):
There was just so many levels of like, where I just literally, was like, nope, notjustifying this to you.
Move on.
where intersectionality really throws people off sometimes.
And I've had it with men who find out I'm Jewish and I'm black.
It's an and.
I'm not a pie where like half of my body is Jewish and like half my body is black.

(01:30:47):
And I'm like, well, no, it's an and.
well, you know, that's why black women, but it is a different experience being an and.
It's unique and it's awesome, but I have different perspectives.
It's not a more or less, I mean, it is kind of more, but not in the hierarchy.

(01:31:08):
It is a broader understanding of things or maybe a deeper understanding of how people canbe different and similar and not say these people are like this, these people are like
this.
Cause you see commonalities and common energies between all these different sectors.
And you can play with that.
But in the value system of
way, the childish way of categorizing people and that, you know, ties into the paternalismright there.

(01:31:34):
Yeah, yeah, the kids are like this.
This kid does, this is the good kid.
This is the bad kid.
This is the kid who likes sports.
This is, you know, it's that.
it's that.
I literally think that at the end of the day, like what I have noticed in my own journeyis like it comes down to this.
Like white people are like, okay, now that white supremacy is coming down, what's gonnamake me better, right?

(01:31:57):
What's gonna make me special?
How are people gonna know I'm the good one?
And the answer is just nothing.
Nothing, nobody, yeah.
And you have to get to know people.
You have to get to know people to know who they are as it has always been throughout time.
Right?

(01:32:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
up.
We're not gonna, you know, go, how do I get people to bring me flowers next time?
Nope, nope.
It's like we can all keep bringing each other flowers and we can all just take baths, youknow?
Like we can do all of it.
right, and the black, and you'll feel better, it'll be good, like everything, your houseis gonna smell good.

(01:32:44):
It's the simple things.
No faces on mountains, people in back tubs.
I like that.
There you have it friends.
Check out White Woman Whisperer's Patreon, which will be linked below.
She's a very good series on the tenets of white supremacy, which are also making anappearance in The Culting of America.

(01:33:06):
And like and subscribe the podcast.
Thank you all so much.
If you haven't read Uncultured yet, what are you doing?
Yeah, come on, get with it.
Bye.

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Episode 29 | Faces on mountains and people in streets

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 29 | Faces on mountains and people in streets