Episode 30 | Speaking equitably with confidence

In this conversation, Daniella and Rebecca delve into the complexities of cult dynamics, particularly focusing on the Nation of Islam. They explore personal experiences with cults, the intersection of race and cults, and the societal responses to these groups. The discussion highlights the role of white women in these conversations, the importance of listening and learning from diverse experiences, and the manipulative tactics employed by cults. The speakers emphasize that conflict can be a necessary part of understanding and navigating these topics, and they advocate for a more nuanced approach to discussing race and identity within the context of cults. In this conversation, Daniella and Rebecca explore the complexities of racial discussions, the importance of asking questions, and the role of community in understanding different perspectives. They delve into the nuances of consumer privilege in content creation, the challenges of neurodiversity, and the impact of cultural practices on comfort and community. The discussion also touches on the significance of authenticity, self-reflection, and the dynamics of rebranding in personal and societal contexts.

Connect with Rebecca at:

The White Woman Whisperer Website

 

The White Woman Whisperer Patreon

 

The White Woman Whisperer TikTok

 

Connect with Daniella at:

You can read all about that story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. .css-j9qmi7{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-direction:row;-ms-flex-direction:row;flex-direction:row;font-weight:700;margin-bottom:1rem;margin-top:2.8rem;width:100%;-webkit-box-pack:start;-ms-flex-pack:start;-webkit-justify-content:start;justify-content:start;padding-left:5rem;}@media only screen and (max-width: 599px){.css-j9qmi7{padding-left:0;-webkit-box-pack:center;-ms-flex-pack:center;-webkit-justify-content:center;justify-content:center;}}.css-j9qmi7 svg{fill:#27292D;}.css-j9qmi7 .eagfbvw0{-webkit-align-items:center;-webkit-box-align:center;-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;color:#27292D;}

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
And fairness is interesting as a word, right?

(00:03):
Fairness and how fair everything is and you're fair skin and you're fair.
Shut up.
It's not about that.
This isn't a melting pot.
We're all just people.
Like you're not the parents disseminating out equal rights to everybody.
Like at some point there has to be that acknowledgement.
And I think we're getting there, but it's, you know, it's trying not to demonize peoplewho do.

(00:29):
wrong things.
That's in that whiteness and thinking that that's going to happen to you.
If you do something wrong.
I'm not sure if we have a topic today, but I talked about Nation of Islam on my channelsthis week.

(00:49):
Did you?
Okay.
Okay.
How did that go?
okay, it's going okay.
I'm continually reminding myself that conflict is not bad.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So first of all, like the first reaction was just people being like, thank you.

(01:13):
Thank you for talking about them.
Like definitely, you know, is one of the kind of accepted cults.
But since most cult people are white American scholars, people don't really want to touchit.

(01:33):
But so, yeah.
back and forth with that, right?
When I first started talking about cults and someone was asking me to look at the DivineNine and people were like, no.
Black people were like, we don't want to hear you talk about that.
However, with, I think, things like Nation of Islam, Nubian Nation, these are cults, thesefollow the same patterns, right?

(02:01):
And most experts have said all cults are ultimately the same.
And I mean, when I read, we read in cult book club, Jamilia Chisom's, the community aboutNubian nation and like growing up in one of their communes.
And I've never read anything that described my childhood better, including my own book,than like that experience.

(02:25):
you know, and then there are also, so there are people that are saying, thank you.
Right.
And it's kind of like the, the cult baby story is the same.
And, and
And this is kind of where I'm going with, you first of all, we can look at patterns, butalso we judge groups by listening to their ex-members and, you know, too many, many

(02:47):
descriptions of how it is.
I know what I know about a nation of Islam from talking to survivors of it as much asfrom, you know, reading things that mostly white academics have written about it.
Right, and once you realize also that their foundation is patriarchal, then at its core,there is going to end up being the group think and that one person decides the truth and

(03:21):
the way forward.
It's going to end up culty, and I think that...
focusing and centering on the experience of the most vulnerable.
Of course, Fran is gonna get all active now.
The most vulnerable people.
Fran, hey, meow.

(03:42):
Okay, sorry.
Then you can kind of be a good person to have that conversation.
And you know, obviously, I mean, I've said this about all cults, like you need people whounderstand your exact version of it, which of course is not going to be me.

(04:02):
But then you also need people that understand that they don't understand it, butunderstand like the larger challenges.
Yeah, sorry, I can still hear you.
just wanna put it over here.
I mean, it's very similar about working with veterans, right?
Like if you're not a veteran, there's just a part of the experience you're just not gonnaunderstand, right?

(04:25):
And certainly there's stuff about the nation of Islam that I will never be able tounderstand, but we can write.
for the experience.
You know, and when you're saying cult baby, that is how you can mitigate any kind of harmfrom existing as a white woman.

(04:46):
Having this conversation is bringing it back to that always and not centering the facts ofit is a cult period.
that's now what we're having a conversation about.
It's like, no, it's
these people identify with my experience, and so I am going to have that conversation.

(05:09):
of one of the ultimate points that I made was that, you know, yes, people that study cultsare white American scholars for the most part, right?
Like that is absolutely part of the conversation.
However, every cult scholar and especially those of us who grew up in them say that likeit doesn't matter what you call it.

(05:32):
You know, and this is kind of what I see on my side.
It's like, well, if my content
about growing up in an extreme cult speaks to you?
Right?
Or if my list, like that's why I made my list, to be as a tool, because there's no, youknow, everyone thinks there's like some deity who names cults, and it's like that's the

(05:55):
media, and that is done when we can measure the damage in bodies.
And that's the cultiness of your thinking.
Your cult ability is in looking for dad to tell you what is the truth.
Looking to, it's like, it always comes down to like, but who is your dad?
I realized like there's a lot of that.
And if there is that answer, then if there is some worse written word, dictionary,something you're going to go to, to decide what the truth is, that isn't just, well, this

(06:23):
makes sense.
And I've seen this and I heard this and this aligns no kind of self.
agency and acknowledgement?
Oof.
And I also just think that like being a cult baby in this field, like I kind of hate everydefinition, including my own, because again, there's more to it, you know, and especially

(06:48):
once we acknowledge single family cults and one one cults, like most people are nevergonna get what I
which is the validity of the world being like, yes, that was a cult.
Mm-hmm.
That believing you, like, which is itself, you know, a part of the problem.
But with that privilege that you have, you are going to wield it to help others feel thatsame assuredness with yours.

(07:16):
You know, it's like, that is your privilege at work.
And that makes sense to me.
And also the, the definition, right, is so white coded.
like defining is always in hindsight anyway.
And
It's not helpful as long as it isn't dynamic, but that's worship of the written word.
I've been telling, I said it once, but in my head I've been saying like, be, don't de,right?

(07:41):
Instead of de-centering men, it doesn't matter if it's in the center, if it's the onlything on the page, right?
So it's, don't de-center men, just be about yourself, right?
Because when you're still focused on demonizing these people,
but defining is another one.

(08:02):
Denying, defending, all of these are just still centering that thing that you are claimingnot to be worthy, but you have limited attention and that is an actual resource.
I'm glad, and the Divine Nine is such an interesting, and I'm kind of glad you didn't gointo Divine Nine, because that is very, I mean, it comes from the lineage of white

(08:27):
supremacy, yes.
But it's almost like how there was a black beauty pageant because black people weren'tallowed.
It was still a different thing.
know, it's...
see, see, so even that, think it's interesting looking at Black Panthers versus Nation ofIslam or Hebrew Israelites, right?
Where it's like, this was a resistance movement, a social movement.

(08:48):
There was probably a lot of culty stuff that we talk about, right?
Like we see that everywhere.
Yeah.
And in part, because these movements are a response to real things in society.
And that's what I find.
for me as like the scholar to be really interesting, right?
Because when we look at white cults in America, most of the persecution is made up, right?

(09:13):
Or it's like, no, like they're after you because you're raping children, right?
But we know that when people are feeling persecuted, right, they are willing to do upeverything.
including commit violence, like on behalf of their in-group.

(09:34):
And so I think it's really relevant that any kind of demographic intersectionality can beused to recruit you.
And so when we see, you know, very significantly the 30s and then the 60s, or when some ofthese big cults come up, and like the message that white America hates you is true, right?

(09:56):
The us versus them is true.
right there.
are out there trying to get you, right?
Like the best thing that ever happened to Castro was Bay of Pigs, right?
Because then he was like, yeah, America is out to get us, right?
It was a real thing.
I think America was on the wrong side.
But like when America invaded and tried to mess around in Cuban politics to try to keep...

(10:24):
Cuba from going communist.
That was the best thing that ever happened to Castro because he could be for the rest oftime, like, look, see, they're out to get us.
But unfortunately, even though Nation of Islam has this important place in Black culture,I think, we still see all the same patterns.

(10:48):
We still see the trafficking of labor.
We still see him with the young girls.
you know, just.
patriarchy is still, you know, can still, it's like, you know, we talk about white womenand it's like, black men are our next thing.
It's just when in my conversations, I'm not going to, you know, and that's whereintersection is hard for me, you know.

(11:15):
is Black Men or the White Women of Women.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
Black Men or the White Women of
Yeah.
I mean, they're the men of black people.
So like it's, it's, it's that too.
So it's like they're men, right.
And people, and, I think that's what dehumanization does.

(11:36):
And because when you talk about people in general, the dehumanization is including andignoring black people in that.
Right?
You get the plausible deniability of in hindsight going, well, yeah, we're talking aboutblack men too.
And then you adjust whatever you're thinking.
No, you weren't, but you don't realize you weren't.
because it's just like, there was so much actually done in language of saying, you know,in this accident, there were this many men, this many women, and this many Negroes.

(12:09):
Not saying men and women, right?
Saying separating purposefully, but then when you just stop saying, and the Negroes part.
Now it's like, well, then we're talking about everybody.
And you never did that.
part of, I feel like has been my lesson, right?
So first of all, when I wrote my book, Uncultured, like the high school counselor whosaves my life, who puts me on the path that changes everything was a black woman.

(12:33):
And I was like, how do I think that?
Because I want people to know that.
Because if I don't say it, we're gonna assume that she's white, right?
And I have found.
would, I think, maybe, I wonder about black women.
you have that default, yeah, you have that default whiteness, they call it, right?

(12:55):
So if I'm writing the book and I don't call it out, and I mean, I reached out to a blackwoman author that I really respect and she gave me, know, two, two pieces of advice on how
to do it and how to call attention to it.
But.
Because I would too.
I would include people's rights because it matters.

(13:18):
But not like that matters.
so then I've also tried to navigate that as a cult scholar.
At first, was like people were like, we don't want you talking about black groups.
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna sit and listen.
But now, but then when I started to have a lot more black people following me and saying,can you do this one?

(13:40):
Can you talk about this one?
Yup.
the difference of talking about Jehovah's Witnesses because they're white led but they'resuper heavily filled with black people versus, right?
And so it's like, I don't wanna just be like, I don't talk about black groups because thenthat is also not the correct answer.

(14:00):
And I think what it comes down to is just that it is a complicated situation.
And that's what I do.
And that's why I keep telling myself, like, conflict is not bad.
yeah.
I went and turned off the comments and I was like, no, you what?
I turned off the comments because the responses that I'm getting are just cult responses,right?

(14:24):
No, it's all the same stuff that I see.
So I was just like, I don't wanna deal with it.
And I was gonna turn it off.
And then I swear, Rebecca popped up in my head and was like, is not bad.
Yeah.
Right.
It's like, it would be easier to not talk about black groups and in an organization, itwould be safer not to talk about black groups, safer for whom, you know, safer for whom

(14:53):
and why, because you can prove, prove, you know, that you can, you can exist in theconflict, but the, answers, cause even when I brought up
you know, the, the, Bayer scenario and that white women were the men of women, the Gaultyresponses.
And I got triggered, right?

(15:13):
And I have to work on that, but that's where it's like B don't D, don't defend, don'tdefine, don't do, because those things are, are hindsight.
It does not help.
And it's only going to, you have limited time and energy.
and attention and self-control.
And it leads you into this irritable defensive, like prepared for statements.

(15:39):
So now someone who sounds just like all the other cult members, because you have, you'vejust heard this so many times, they may not be as aggressive as you feel like they're
being, but anyway, it's, that's the whole thing about creating content.
I don't know.
It's.
guilty of that, right?
Like I'm guilty of snapping back at people and then like, so, so for example, I did athing about MAGA saying that like the cult leader is not easily replaceable, right?

(16:05):
And so then I just got so many, well, Scientology, gotcha, right?
And I was like, at some point, I just got so upset that I snapped back at people.
But then I look at my response just to that one person, and it definitely does.
I'm like, gosh, no, like that is
that is really snippy.

(16:25):
But I would say on the other side of that though, like I do feel like I can take on thisconversation about this because I know that I have, one, know I have no ill intentions
towards the black community that I'm trying to unpack this stuff that part ofacknowledging upfront, like part of the conversation is that people that look like me are

(16:48):
the ones that talk about this the most, you know, and have defined it.
you have me as a part of your community.
You have these conversations every week.
That is a part of your resources.
You are resourced in this, in having me in your head to do that.

(17:08):
And that's what black women do.
I get that from the existence of this work that came before me.
And that's all I, you know, that's what I.
aim to do is just provide white women with, but you can't do that without me in a way, youknow, like without the existence of a community that will push back on the ease way and

(17:29):
the safe meaning safe from people being mad at you.
And like maybe they'll be mad at you.
I also think this is part of it, right?
It's like, book that I'm working through right now, White Women Get Ready, that's like,it's written by a white woman for white women.
But none of that would be possible without like all of these black writers and thinkersthat she has studied on her journey that led her to be able to like put this book

(17:59):
together.
But I do think there's a point.
And I feel like as society we're getting to that point now where like white women need tocall each other in and be like, no, do this.
Like this is what we've learned.
This is what, you know.
now that we know this stuff about ourselves, let's talk about this and make this more likethere are specific conversations white women can be having about white womanhood, but it's

(18:25):
just not going to sound like conversations that have been had before.
And you're not prepared.
You're not given that go ahead or something permission from dad to do it.
it's kind of this cult survivor thing.
Again, right?
Like, we don't know how to be normal humans in the real world without listening to blackwomen and diverse voices and all of this stuff.

(18:46):
But we are the ex-cult members of the cult of white supremacy and white womanhood.
And we can go get our own people.
And even when you haven't done all the work yet, you can always go get your own people andbe like, hey, it's a cult.
Yeah, be like, Hey, did you know?
Like, it's just something because you're not supposed to only talk when you what that'swhat the white men do.

(19:11):
And they just pretend the whole time they are, they have just strong opinions or whateveryou showing that vulnerability first to say, my gosh, did you, know, it's human to human.
It's not teacher to student because you're both white women.
For me, it's not the same.
I can't, I'm not having the same conversation that white woman.

(19:33):
listened to black women when that black woman shared her experiences with them.
I watched videos of black women going, a white woman complimented me on my hair today.
And all she said was that looks gorgeous.
It was great.
Like all she said, and I know that so well, I understand.
And all I want to do is share with white women, hey, if you want to compliment, don'tthink you have to, right?

(19:56):
I think avoid it because we're just like, this is what happens, right?
That wasn't a
She shared it because it was like, she didn't say, my wish my, I'm jealous.
And after the relating is too close, relate to your fellow white women.
Don't relate.
We're not related.
We don't have related experiences.
That's not how we're connected.

(20:17):
We're not, know, relating is for relatives.
That doesn't mean we can't have respect for each other and have a community with eachother.
I think there is a space as women to have community, but not if you're going to come in.
and demand I think we're the same.
Right?
Because that's not at all what we do over here.

(20:41):
it's even the thing we were saying about like the fiber arts versus specifying, you know,knitting supremacy or whatever.
And just like, just knowing that the person is gonna be uncomfortable even for a littlebit, I think should make you like shift your behavior.
And you know, I had this experience with asking people, where are you from?

(21:03):
Or I should say asking people with accents, where are you from?
Mm-hmm.
And because I grew up abroad, because I don't fit in, because I'm not what I look like,and because I know I love to talk about other countries, like for all these reasons, I
used to always like, whenever I was talking to someone with an accent, I'd be like, mygosh, where are you from?

(21:24):
And then I started to notice that like, especially Europeans, but all kinds of people werelike, you know, like standing back and...
You know, one of the things now I have learned for all of those reasons, I can lead with,Brazil, blah, blah, you know, like I can lead with something first that messages those

(21:47):
things and allows them, if they want to, to bring up, you know, another country thatthey're from.
But just that experience of like, they're looking at me, an American waspy looking whitewoman, asking them when they're from.
and they're just reliving every other negative interaction they've had.

(22:07):
is this about to be, and you being able to just take that in and not, you're centeringyourself so you're not centering yourself, right?
And just taking it in, letting it digest.
And that will influence how you have conversations in the future and how you, but you canalso have those conversations with white people in a state of like, it's not instruction.

(22:29):
It's just like, did you, it's just sharing.
There isn't a hierarchy in it, but.
I do see white women, it's like, that's why I'm talking.
It's not for the attention and for the, any of the, it's, I put up a sign at my desk atwork that said, please don't touch my hair, right?

(22:52):
But I picked a very good non-aggressive picture with like a little crown and tried tocenter myself, but I didn't do that so people would, like I thought in my head, if they
see the sign,
they'll have the conversation with someone before it even comes up and I have to dosomething and then that will spread.

(23:14):
And then people will, that was my little idealistic thinking, not like people will just bemade uncomfortable or whatever.
But that is the goal that white women talk to other white women to prevent this discomfortand to like.
in that it will create more opportunities for you even just realizing if I say I'm fromBrazil where like it's empathy and it's understanding not like people shouldn't you're

(23:42):
defending yourself you don't need to do that no one is attacking you even when they thinknegatively or consider that you could possibly be
It's just like.
eventually was like, huh, I think people are, you know, like having that realization thatI think the more I worked on my stuff and the more I hear other people talk about how

(24:09):
problematic white people are, right?
And like, you have to talk to enough minorities in America to realize that they get askedwhere they're from, know where you're really from, right?
Like you have to like learn all of that and then be like, this is what they think'shappening.
yeah, as just factually, like, as you approach every stranger, you don't get the benefitof the doubt.

(24:32):
Because now that I think about that phrase, I'm like, what is that?
right.
for me, it was a good lesson on intent versus impact, right?
It's like, it doesn't matter that I'm not going there with it.
It doesn't matter that these are not the reasons why, you know, like it doesn't.
They're still having that moment of fear or eye rolling or exhaustion or whatever thatmoment is.

(24:54):
you could have avoided that had you known or whatever and you can in the future you didn'tdo anything wrong right and that's the whole erasism of it all i've been really in that
erasism thing and the whiteout and the lumpy paper that you get as a result but it has allthe right things on it you didn't say anything wrong but everyone's uncomfortable and you
could have just turned a new sheet and then just been like okay i learned this thing idon't whiteout i think about now just was that even good for us

(25:20):
Like the paint I used to put on my nails, it smelled a little chemically.
Anyway, I just like what, know, you know, doing my little French tip, terrible, lookedbad.
Shouldn't, you know, it wasn't achieving the thing I was looking for.
And it's like, then it turned to tape and then it becomes the point to just wipe out yourwhole, I remember going through a whole like, wipe this whole thing out.

(25:47):
accept a scratchy paper and then move on to the next thing.
I just wonder about some of that, you know, the amendments and the, wasn't really, itwasn't really bad, it wasn't really a problem, we're just gonna move forward and we're
gonna forgive and forget and we're gonna white out everything and like, that's not whathappened, she didn't mean it that way or maybe you, that's gaslighting, stop doing all of

(26:12):
that.
Instead, accepting,
the scenario that is in front of you and saying, okay, these people are black and I'mwhite, but I'm hearing culture experiences.
And now I'm talk about how that sounds like a culture experience.
Next thing.
race makes things.

(26:35):
nonsensical.
It makes people nonsensical.
part of it, right?
But like someone just straight out was like, she doesn't have the experience to evaluateNOI.
I'm like, Mormons say the same thing to me.
AA people say the same thing to me.
know, like if, yeah, like.

(26:57):
says that you're almost kind of making the point stronger on my end by how you defend it.
Because why do you care what a random person says?
part of the strength of what I do is I'm just like, these are the tactics, right?
These are the tactics.
These are the procedures.
But I mean, so specifically with like Nubian Nation, right?

(27:20):
Like my experience listening to a book about a Black cult, which I did think, I thoughtthere would be more differences than there were.
Like it literally broke my brain.
how that was my exact childhood.
The reasoning was different, right?
Like the reasoning they give you, the mission they give you, but all of those are justflavors of difference.

(27:45):
Because they're narcissist systems at the end of the day, you know how like everyone whoexperiences a narcissist is obviously a different set of things that takes them off, a
different whatever, but the resulting experience to the victim of it, to the personreceiving that abuse is based in the same human experiences.

(28:06):
Like we're all human.
I don't want to give, you know, colorblind, but at the end of the day, there areconnections we're going to have, but also,
the people who are bad, we can be bad in black.
Black women have the most to consider when existing.
That doesn't mean black women can't also be harmful.

(28:27):
Black women can't exist in these nuanced bubbles.
It's just that when black women are talking about being a black woman around white women,as a white person, if you are hearing from a black woman about the experience, they're not
likely lying to you.
If they're asking you for something, I don't know.
consider that they're also a person who might be using your easy privilege to getsomething out of you, because they're people too.

(28:53):
And we can be narcissists as well.
I think it's less likely to work because consequences shape behavior, but like.
But I think this is also like if we flip that around for cults, Like cults are always thebest.
It's just manipulating their little piece, right?
So like white cults know religious freedom and homeschooling laws like the back of theirfricking hand.

(29:17):
And these significant black cults that we've seen, they know how to weaponize civil rightsand us versus them and you know, these things to get you to care.
because ultimately all cults are just weaponizing your discontent in order to exploit yourlabor.
Ooh, I like that.
that's interesting because, you know, caste is caste, the origins of our discontents.

(29:45):
That's the name of it.
Same, same.
It always remains on top because it gave me so much understanding before I even understoodnarcissism.
It was helping me understand narcissism in a way.
just the systemic
use of humanity to control each other.

(30:10):
I tried to start the book by not writing in it and that was crazy.
By the end of it, I had a whole tab system and my pencil's all, my God.
It's my number one recommended.
books from the library anymore.
Yeah, no, I don't.
What do you mean?
This is, know, and it's OK to have a tactile experience with the book.
It's like that's how I remember it.
Sometimes I wish I could do more reading on like digital format, but I I want to I want toput my handwriting there because I'll remember something based on that.

(30:40):
Anyway, I cast is.
It was it's a black woman writing about how these are all connected and I feel like
If she could do that, and then we're just like, but I don't know.
It's really hard and it's really like, it's a big topic.
I know it's different to write a book than it is to be online, but.

(31:01):
I just want to say for those who don't know, caste, Isabel Wilkerson is connecting theIndian caste system, the Nazi caste system, and the American one-drop caste system.
American racism, which was too racist for Hitler.
Yeah, it gives it such a good book.

(31:22):
It's, it's so good.
And just to me also like helped me depersonalize what was happening to me.
It felt like this is not on you.
Like you aren't, and it's not on you to necessarily fix or understand or zoom out.
Right?
You're not special.

(31:43):
None of this is special.
this is funny because this is so relevant to studying cult experience, right?
And this is why I say like part of my book club is just we read 12 cult memoirs and youunderstand that like your experience wasn't special.
But also it's group trauma, right?
It's really hard to heal from group trauma if you don't understand what happened to you.

(32:05):
Right, right, right.
And who's gonna end in white women listen to, I mean, to other white women.
And I don't think that's some kind of like, yeah, that makes sense.
They look like you.
That's kind of what happens.
But if I'm telling you, hey, you've been, and that's kind of how I used to start it withlike showing my little picture of me as a little girl with my white mom.

(32:28):
And I remember being like, if I do this, they will listen to me more.
They will believe me more that I don't have.
like malicious intent, which is like, but it had to be a part of it.
And what I want is for you to care enough to listen and to care about me, which feelsmanipulative, but it literally is just like, no, seriously, yes.
I want you to know what it feels like to be around you and be betrayed in that way.

(32:52):
Or it just.
mean, it's almost like the credential stuff that we talk about, right?
It's like you have to present, or I feel like I have to do that with Latin stuff, right?
Like I have to present my Latina credentials at the door.
like, yes, I know I look like an American white woman, but I grew up in Brazil and Mexico.
I do speak Spanish and Portuguese.
And then everyone's like, oh cool, this is amazing.

(33:15):
And I do that, yeah, I know.
I get a better response, yeah.
definitely more inclusive once you were like, which, know, for me it's, but then once, Irealized once they really heard what I was saying, to put the wall down a little bit, was

(33:35):
like, that has to be a culty thing.
Just because there's this, you can't know what you sound like.
They're like, that's what I felt like, you should walk.
Do you know what it is like and the looks we're giving each other when you leave the room?
Wouldn't you want to know that?
And it's like, they don't even get there.
I'm not there yet.

(33:55):
I think that's part of it, right?
Like there's always a point when people are like, people now will just say it to me.
They're like, I can't call it a cult yet.
So I call it a high control group, you know?
And like, can't, when people are still in the cults, you can't tell them they're in acult, right?
So like, that's the difficult part.
We're always learning that we were in a cult in hindsight.

(34:19):
And I also think that's where the defensiveness comes from, because you feel like you needto
just like defend where you came from.
And that's what was so interesting to me was that like by the time I started my consciousanti-racism journey, I had already written a whole book about the cult and deconstructed
the cult.
And so I don't need to defend where I came.

(34:41):
You know, and I just think like that's one of the only differences, which is every, nobodyneeds to defend where they came from, you know, but.
if you didn't have to feel like someone talking to you meant you have to now get yourdefenses ready.
What do you mean?
All you had to do was listen.
You literally don't have to say anything.

(35:01):
No one is requiring you to say anything.
But for some reason, white women feel like you're waiting for my approval agreement thatare a thing of understanding and relating and the proof that I'm proof of receipt.
you didn't, nope.
You were, I watched you listen to me.
So you don't need to knuckle.

(35:22):
I, you know, that now I'm throwing it back.
Cause you think I don't know what listening looks like and you know, just believingyourself.
This is where I think cults are all about performance comes into play right because thisis how we demonstrate that we are good little white girls is We you know her mining

(35:43):
ourselves up and we're like look I gotta do this like I don't know you know
right.
Like context, context rich environments, like culture is context rich.
is, that's why black women can have conversations without speaking and giving so muchnonverbal, but like, or in the actual verbal.

(36:10):
Some of that's cause they were forced to.
Right?
We had to speak in silence, but then at the same time, there's a happy medium where yoursilence is part, like it's okay.
Also, I was talking about like standup crowds, black audiences are hard to please becauseyou're, we're not going to laugh to make you feel better.
We came here to, we're going to laugh and we're going to laugh.

(36:32):
But in these white standups, you see people just say crazy things and if their familiesare something just like as a gift.
Right?
Like, I'm doing this for you.
It's just, and that's bad.
They need to, it may be uncomfortable for them.
It's uncomfortable to be a standup comedian and not be funny.
Yeah, it should be uncomfortable.

(36:53):
You shouldn't feel like, well, he's trying really hard.
your job is to be funny.
You're failing at your job.
Like, you should feel weird.
Take the feedback.
a future you, you don't exist in your like current moment and that's it.
But the performance, right?
If you're only as good as your last deed, feels culty to me.

(37:16):
It's like, you're doing great if you're doing great, but last week was weird and now Idon't know where I stand.
You know, this one thing happened that happens in relationships and jobs and these groupsand.
It doesn't matter all your past?
And this also comes back to the idea of purity, And perfection in black and white that weget in cults, right?

(37:38):
Because it's just like this whole idea that you're supposed to be trying to be pure andperfect all of the time.
And, you know, just going back to this conversation, I'm like, you know, I'm going to messthings up, right?
Like I should have prefaced it by saying, of course, cults are defined by white academic,right?
Like I could have done better.

(37:59):
Like I will.
learn things in this conversation as well, and that's fine.
Like, I don't have to be perfect.
It also doesn't mean the knowledge that I do have is not relevant, right?
So it's like, I don't need to avoid it.
I feel like a year ago, I would have just avoided the whole conversation.

(38:20):
I may have been like, that's a good idea.
Just because, you know, because who knows if you're ready for that.
And I think you are obviously because you're doing it and you had the, you exercise thatdiscomfort and engaged in it and our experience, like this is that that's what this is.

(38:43):
And you can decide any time to stop, but this is proof that you can, this is a choice.
And yeah, so when you first said you were doing it, was like, uh-oh, but not uh-oh, likebad, bad, but it's like, okay.
Let's see what this is about.
I actually don't know that much about them as cults.

(39:03):
I know Malcolm X, right?
I know that they can absolutely exist in culting.
Like I've seen, you know, what narcissism is in everything.
So, but it's like the audience, you know, but the avoiding the divine nine, acknowledgingit and avoiding it is, almost like a sign of like, okay, good.
Okay.

(39:24):
So you, so you're using your culty, but also.
listening where you're like, maybe, no, okay.
Like you don't exist in that purity of.
Yeah.
You can always just be like, yeah, that was wrong.
I'd rather wrong than righteous.

(39:44):
I'd rather you try and be like, it turns out you shouldn't say it.
Like, I can't imagine what you would do that would just like make it not worth it.
You're to say something.
You're not going to come out here and be like, N-words.
So like, you know, I always keep saying I'm not trying to be anything except on the rightside of history, you know, and like when I do Jehovah's Witnesses, I learn more about it

(40:08):
when I engage in these, that's the whole reason I do.
Literally every time someone's like, can you make a video on a call?
I'm usually just like, OK, here's what I know.
Sometimes it's just I literally just looked this up.
Here's what I know.
Come tell me your experience.
And like, I'm going to learn.
I.
space versus an instruction.

(40:30):
Mormonism, but I still learn every time I'm speaking to like an ex-member or currentmember or whatever.
Yeah.
Because you're taking in individual experiences.
should be, like, that's how I feel about almost every time I listen to a story time orsomething, you I'm always just like, there's this, you just never know what you're going
to get from another person.

(40:50):
And I think that's what whiteness took away from white people is this ability to see theabundance and opportunity in relationship by listening.
But it's like, you don't even get to the listening because you're so
There's this wall up of something of like that performance of, it's the performance of therole of good person that you're separated, you're listening true self from your, I'm a,

(41:18):
like whatever that is.
like what we were talking about with the rap stuff, right?
know, like every time I say I'm about to get involved in like a black topic, right?
White people around me are like, watch out.
And again, like you said, I'm like, it's not like I'm gonna get mad and start like,pussing people out, flinging around racial epithets, right?

(41:42):
Like what am I watching out about that some people might be upset?
Okay.
Like what has happened that white people are so afraid of?
Cause as far as I'm concerned, the who should be afraid are not the white people.
Like what have black people done?
And you know, they go imagine, there was a black woman whisper and gee.

(42:06):
Imagine, if it starts with imagine, one, it's already happening.
Like that's how we got here.
like, yeah, it'd be racist probably.
That's the whole thing is that I'm talking about being like, you know, there's just thisso many layers of defensive, like callousness to get through and white women don't have to

(42:29):
deal with that.
They kind of, they try to build up the callousness after they realize you're on the wrongside, but it just doesn't work as well.
that.
You can and you don't have to come on like that and to take on this don't be trying to beblack because you're white.
That's why I told white women to do the ope.

(42:50):
Ope, ope, ope, ope.
And that's your security.
So I took one of my classes and my master's was on leadership and the professor said avery bold statement which was like, yeah, you never have to argue ever.
You just ask good questions of the other person.

(43:11):
And so one of the things I've started doing, So right now it's people with seven dayAdventism.
So makes it a cult.
And I'm just like.
Before we start, I would like you to tell me what you think makes the children of God acult or Scientology, right?

(43:31):
Like pick an obvious cult and you define it for me and then I'm going to show you amirror, right?
Because like I know these things are the same, you know, but I don't need to like arguethat.
I can just ask you.
to tell me your definition and what you think.

(43:54):
You we're all here in agreement, the children of God was the cult.
So what are those things?
yeah, it's not as bad as this.
Okay, let's say, what's this?
What's this?
Let's start there.
And in their explanation, we'll do the work for you.
And I just, that's why I try to get white women to slow down and ask, why am I talking?
Because debunking is one of the D's I don't want you to do, right?

(44:17):
I'd rather you be than debunk.
They're like, we got it, we got it, we got it.
Okay, I don't know.
I would rather you.
do something that's reducing harm or making people aware or showing empathy.
this focus on showing how wrong someone is still doesn't make you do anything better.

(44:45):
it's still that, as you say, the whiteness focus on the anti-identity or the like, andthat's the other thing.
It's like, I don't need to prove that this is a cult.
All I'm trying to do here is open up space for people to talk about it.
And in this discussion, we're gonna have, there's gonna be value in the discussion.

(45:11):
There's literally these times
Right?
The title doesn't matter if, like, the group is the same.
Right, if you're looking for the definition and blah, blah, blah, you're already on thewrong, we're not having the same conversation.
And that's kind of what happened with me critiquing John Brown as this abolitionist.

(45:31):
And to have white men in 2023 or whatever year it was yelling at me on the internet aboutwhat Harriet Tubman believed in the name of John Brown, I was like, so you want me to,
like, I'm just gonna,
You know, lay out what's currently happening, not, what you're, no, I don't have to say,so what you're saying is I just have to be like, okay, so you want me to defend my

(45:59):
critique, my black woman ass critique in the fact that you're yelling at like just thewhole event of it all did it for me.
But I know also that I have black women and there are people who, when you have community,you don't feel the need.
to show yourself every time and to perform for every single person, to convince them thatyou're worth listening to.

(46:24):
You already got people listening to you and they're hilarious already.
was going to say, and not to belabor the point, but I feel comfortable to take on thisconversation because I have a lot of black people that follow me because we've had lot of
discussions about Nation of Islam because I have talked to so many survivors and listenedto their account and I can draw the parallels.
Just to say the community, right?

(46:46):
Yeah, just to say the community.
didn't just Google black cults and start calling things out.
yeah, you didn't say one comment and go, yeah, sure.
Which is what like a white man might do and go, I'm a cult scholar.
they say, it's cool.
I was like, you know, you have the wherewithal to understand where you sit in it and whatgoes on.

(47:09):
so prior and people who follow you know that.
And we can take in that context of the moment and go, it's not just random white ladytalks about nation and Islam.
There's.
You're a cult scholar, you're in a cult, you talk to me every week, you have people thatobviously you listen to before doing this because you know you're on the internet.

(47:29):
Like, the community considers all of that.
Doesn't just go, prove it to me.
that's also waste of your time.
That doesn't see you as a person who may have done this a thousand times before.
Look for the video that explains it.
to do that too, where it's just like, if someone is, a lot of times I'll just see if theyfollow me before I even answer the comment.

(47:51):
Cause it's like, there's too many now that I'm having to pick and choose.
And I know you at least have some context for me and who I am if you're already herefollowing me versus you just stumbled across this video.
that gives that, whatever benefit of the doubt is, I will give that to someone, Grace, ifI see they're already following me.

(48:13):
Now sometimes they do that, but they're like zero, zero, zero, and they're following youjust to watch.
Rarely does that happen though.
But it's like, okay, if you want, white women, if you want to know what I am saying, Iwant you to hear it.
If you don't, I don't want that for you.

(48:33):
What?
Why would I, you know, it's like, I'm not colonizing.
by and criticize the crafting?
Like I have people.
It was more when I was a group behavior gal, but it's still surprising to me.
I'm called Knitting Cult Lady and they'll show up and they'll be like, you know, you havereally good information, but the knitting is overwhelming.

(48:56):
Like maybe everything isn't for you.
Like I don't know.
I don't know what to tell you, you know?
I'm sorry like that is such a weird.
my gosh
subtitles, right?
Like I do my part in case you want it, but it's like your thing you say where people arelike, well, I didn't do Patreon.
Yeah, like I can say consumer privilege.

(49:17):
To even say that shows that you're just like someone who consumes and you don't value anyof the context of the work that has gone into this.
To just point out something that, and how do you prove to someone that they have consumerprivilege?
it's not really about that.
It's like, you just see me as an entertainment source and.

(49:42):
I had someone say, you know, I love, you know, when they start with that, I love yourcontent, but the moving around and long, I think I talked about the silly long fingernails
and finger wagging is really distracting.
I said, did you confuse me with a book?
Like this is a TikTok page.
you know, you want something that sits still and you could just, I'm not a book.

(50:06):
I hear you.
That's for, it's distracting.
This is a TikTok video.
Like you're distracted because you're on TikTok.
You know, the inconsideration.
And I was like, you want a book and that's fine, but don't come to a human person's TikTokpage where they're sharing information with you about dehumanization.
Like, the thing, you know, and there's racial microaggressions in there.

(50:31):
Microaggressions is a word I don't love, but.
You know,
When I, when I get is, it's too much for my ADHD or this is too much for my, and I'm like,so, so you're calling on neurodiversity while you're trying to shame someone for their
stimming?
Really?
Like...
you the newly diagnosed neurodiverse white women are the least sufferable.

(50:58):
are inintufferable.
And I had a whole thing with them because when captions, so Elise Myers, who was verypopular, I think she's back on TikTok, were mutuals.
So she made a video once saying, you know, if the least you can do is add captions, likeeveryone should do this.
You should do this.
You should do this.
Like if you're a good person, you should be adding captions, right?
But at that time, especially,

(51:20):
you know, talking about certain things online, especially as the black person, you wouldcensor yourself and adding captions.
Also this, like the dexterity issues and stuff of adding captions.
I don't think anyone should say a hundred percent across the board.
Everyone should do something.
So I stitched that to say that.
my goodness.
You know what you're saying is, and just like the borrowed outrage for people didn't evenneed captions.

(51:43):
And like that became a whole thing.
especially like on duets, they wouldn't appear, but everyone would find the black women inyellow or about captions.
But also realizing that when I tell white women like, you know, just listening and not,you know, try to appreciate instead of relate, right?
Don't relate, appreciate.
But my ADHD, could never, like, I can't just listen to when someone talks.

(52:10):
And it's, this is where you're including and ignoring at the same time, because who areyou talking to?
Have you seen any of my videos?
Have I finished one sentence?
Like I, you know, they don't see me as potentially a person who understands what you'resaying.
I, that's why I came up with a list of things because I understand that this is hard.
And I see that.

(52:30):
So I made a list that said, you know, instead of telling a relatable story, I suggest youdon't.
All right.
And just recently Hannah Berner, who's,
a white woman comedian was on the interview carpet with Meg Thee Stallion and told MegThee Stallion, I love your music so much.
And Meg Thee Stallion, and this other girl, makes me, you know, I'm so excited.
It makes me want to fight.

(52:51):
And Meg Thee Stallion was like, you mean put that fighting stuff down and look good,right?
Cause Meg Thee Stallion specifically has talked many times about not being a fighter.
She actually doesn't fight.
A lot of her music is like, I'm anxious.
I wish I had my parents, but it's rap, right?
So.
There's some microaggression, macroaggression, some stuff in there, right, of this whitewoman being like, you musicians want to fight.

(53:14):
And black people are like, what?
And now we play some of the songs and go, this doesn't make any sense.
And this is where all I was saying was, see, had you just appreciated and not tried torelate, you could have avoided this.
I'm trying to help.
And white women see it as a condemnation or a silencing.

(53:37):
Why would I be talking to you if all I wanted to do was make you feel bad?
See, that's whiteness.
I'm realizing that because that happens so often where people want to be around.
White, I just connected that, know, like white people wanted, black people, right?

(53:57):
But needed them in their house, making their bed, warming their bed, making their food.
You hated people and needed them.
That's narcissism.
like, we're not, I don't, that doesn't make any sense.
I'm not trying to talk to white women because I want to make them feel bad.
What a terrible time.
that's centering, that's like that centering, decentering white women means I hate whitewomen.

(54:21):
No, I'm decentering how your role, the fake fragility, the bomb fragility, you know, thatis so interesting.
But it's like, I'm jealous.
I think that the being newly neurodivergent is like a good analogy for people.
know, like when I found out that I was ADHD, right?

(54:44):
And like, I starting to go through my own two years of like, is this for real?
Right?
And every new thing I would find out, I would come to my spouse and be like, hey, did youknow?
And he'd be like, yeah, I know you do that.
You know, and it's just like.
Yeah!
it was so it was like just because I don't understand my whiteness my internalized racismlike the way I'm coming off when I'm coming off that way doesn't mean everyone else

(55:15):
doesn't you know I had this other experience when I was a captain in the army and Ithought back about my briefs as a new lieutenant and I was like now now that I know what
I'm doing
It was so obvious that I didn't know what I was doing and everyone around me knew thatexcept me, right?
Like I was so sincere and so, I call it the evangelizing phase now.

(55:37):
Like when you find out a new thing and then you have to go like tell everyone about it andlike convince them that it's right and all this stuff that you're learning and.
There is community to be found there with white women, because we're not in that.
And the black women come in that font.

(55:57):
But mental health and anything medical is a different, it is a, we can't relate really.
When white women talk about autism, because some of your stuff is still rooted inwhiteness.
You still got some of the social stuff and the cues and I didn't understand this.
Well, that didn't make sense, because that was based on whiteness.
That has nothing to do with your autism.

(56:18):
And do you not understand when I said, no, no, that has nothing to do with Because whitewomen love to tell me about their autism after I go, who are you talking to?
Or their sense of they love to say how we love to say how like the sense of social justicelike the sense of it's a sense of fairness Does not mean you know anything about social

(56:41):
justice
And fairness is interesting as a word, right?
Fairness and how fair everything is and you're fair skin and you're fair.
Shut up.
It's not about that.
This isn't a melting pot.
We're all just people.
Like you're not the parents disseminating out equal rights to everybody.

(57:01):
Like at some point there has to be that acknowledgement.
And I think we're getting there, but it's, you know, it's trying not to demonize peoplewho do.
wrong things.
That's in that whiteness and thinking that that's going to happen to you.
If you do something wrong.
Yeah, and you know, think part of this is like, know, scholars will talk about how likeall members and cults are perpetrators, right?

(57:31):
Like you have to be in order to be supporting that system, right?
And I kind of found a similar thing once I deconstructed my army experience and beinglike, well, now that I've acknowledged and written a whole book on how toxic the US Army
is, like I feel a little less proud.
of my accomplishments, right?
Like I also have to acknowledge that I benefited from a toxic system that harms people.

(57:57):
And I feel like that is what is really hard for people is that like, once you unpack, youknow, like just, just now that I know all the things not to say to black women, I was
saying them for a while, right?
So like, you know, like.
I learned not to take up the whole sidewalk and crash into black women, but I was doing itfor a bunch of time, right?

(58:24):
And so it is embarrassing, it's shameful, but that's where I feel like you can just decidenot to get stuck in the shame.
Right, because it happened already.
And I get that.
We get those cringe moments.
You're going to bed and you think about that time where blah, blah, blah, blah.

(58:44):
That isn't happening right now.
It feels that way, but you distance yourself from it.
The fact that you know now is that you could have not known.
You could still be doing it.
And you could be defending and yelling at a black woman to try and explain how shemisunderstood.
And I feel like too like this is why we all make fun of lieutenants, right?

(59:08):
Like this is everyone gets that like the new person It's just like a brand new officer.
So like a private or a lieutenant, right?
But like once you are not a lieutenant rank anymore Everyone makes fun of lieutenants andit's because of exactly that right because you're so like earnest, but you
don't know anything.

(59:29):
You've been told you have a bunch of responsibility.
It's not really true.
And it's just funny.
And it's like you spend the whole time that you're a lieutenant being so mad thateveryone's making fun of you.
And then later when you know what you're doing.
Yeah, and it's like, that's the whole, it just keeps you focused.

(59:54):
Yeah.
Did you see, this is, I know this is weird, but we were talking about the faces onmountains, And I just was watching a Paul Mooney movie from like 2000, maybe it a standup,
sure, analyzing white America from 2002.
Anyway, and he mentions like, oh, they hate paint on walls and graffiti, but then they puttheir faces in a mountain.

(01:00:18):
And I was like, the graffiti, wait, yes, that just pissed me off, right?
Because graffiti can, and graffiti can be so many things.
It could be beautiful, obviously.
And they're going to put faces on mountains and be like, this is what you want to see.
Like these, these four faces?
I don't know, it doesn't matter.
But, and we were talking about like going up to space and it feels like these faces arelike, their ways of being like, this is where we're going.

(01:00:44):
And then I saw a video from a woman who used to work at NASA.
who said she'd been censored or like how gross the space shuttle is.
It is sticky.
You can't clean it.
And then while you're up there, you can't open a window.
And she was like, there's like pubes floating around and like the sweat is then reused andlike pink is like reused, but the walls are gross and it smells.

(01:01:10):
have to take all these antihistamines to go up there because it's the germs.
The toilet's always broken, you can't fix things.
And of course, because it's like white people doing white people stuff.
If you think about it, of course they went to colonize space and they did it with germs.

(01:01:33):
Of course.
Have you heard of the thing where like Americans spent however many millions of dollars tocreate a pen that could write in no gravity and the Russian cosmonauts just used a pencil?

(01:01:53):
but that sounds so American.
And I do remember the giving 100 tampons to woman who was going to space for six days andthey were like, yeah.
And it's so funny, because even when I bring this up about how ridiculous this is, thenpeople go, well, you know, they get stuck up there, so that would be smart.

(01:02:14):
And I'm like, so having more tampons than you have food and water supplies, not going tohelp you.
anything to just not listen to the point.
That's, that's why, whatever that is, that like that and like the rhetorical questions,something there where like, so are you saying, exactly.

(01:02:37):
So you're saying the so, it's like what, why, and that's with the hair thing.
That's what I started saying, like white women, like white people shouldn't ask rhetoricalquestions.
Cause it's actually really,
They're not, I don't think you use them right.
Like who does this?
I just told you of three people who do this.
Who does this anymore?
You know, the answers are racism probably most of the time and Q or I don't know, but weshould be asking more questions that make sense.

(01:03:10):
know, space, space.
Also the challenger, the challenger is so American.
I remember being like,
America is like Ted Bundy and the Challenger.
And we don't learn from anything.
We learn about it and then we're like, and then the next thing.
So you had kids watching and a teacher live thought this couldn't go.

(01:03:36):
How many ways can something be obviously avoidable?
entro, like the trauma, because they had the kids ship there and it was on TV and theywatched it in class and.
And we just move right past that.
And then those kids raise people.
And we have to go to school with them.

(01:03:57):
But it's like, just to get a date, to hit the date, to do it faster than, to have theends, the ends justify the means.
Nope.
Stop romanticizing the ends.
I've decided also, because what do you mean?
Well, we got this vase first.

(01:04:18):
Did we, did we, did we need to?
I really just meant like, did we need to?
I don't, cause I don't even care.
I don't even care if it's true.
just think it's just space travel.
All cults were on the space travel and this became such an important thing.
But like you were saying like about romanticizing, right?
Like I always say like even if you get true love, right?

(01:04:40):
Even if you were one of the people that gets true love, that gets a soulmate, true loveends in death or disaster.
Right?
Like true love doesn't end in happiness.
It ends with one of you dying first.
Right?
Like
They have been future faking.
This is a narcissist.
If I've ever heard of happily ever after, no one ever who has experienced that.

(01:05:05):
then these words happened and everything's fine.
Don't ask any questions.
And then racism was over because we wrote it down on paper and romanticizing comes fromromance, which comes from Rome and the Romans.
Didn't do a great job.

(01:05:25):
I don't know.
I don't know much about the Romans.
I'm not from Rome.
There's a whole trending sound.
They take from Rome, talking about the Roman salute.
They're saying that Elon Musk was doing a Roman salute.
they're like, the bitch not from Rome.
He not Roman.
And neither are we.
Why are we seeking, what is romance?
Manipulation.

(01:05:46):
To me, it sounds like they're the action someone takes when they want you.
When they want me, want me to what?
know, colonized.
They want to colonize you.
And I'm just, I like to go back to the original questions when you, when I started writingit out, I'm like Roman, the Roman empire.

(01:06:13):
speaking of the Romans, which just turned into the British, of course, I like to say thatthe history of colonization is just white men going around the world telling black and
brown women to cover up their tits.
Because I think it's because you can't say anything to a woman when she has her tits out.
Like we feel very powerful and confident.
They went to, I remember reading something, like they went to Africa and because of theheat, they weren't wearing that many clothes.

(01:06:39):
And then these white men were like, whoa, they are so promiscuous.
And they are, they're just, that's where they got all of their, but it was hot.
It's hot.
Why would we wear clothes if it's hot?
And,
go to Africa and Latin America and India and label them and and not only did they labelthem as promiscuous but like the missionaries would dress according to British seasons so

(01:07:07):
they would wear full-on jackets and shit in the tropics and
the thing is that in whiteness and when you learn about this You're not thinking about theperspective.
You're not identifying with the Africans I laugh because I'm identifying with the Africanswho look at these people

(01:07:30):
Well, we're with this other country, so we're gonna dress.
It's hot, you smell.
Take off your jacket.
And that's because you're better than me?
I'm sorry.
No.
I look at the children of God and the Mormons and I'm like, at least we got one thingright, which was we dressed like the countries that we were in.

(01:07:55):
We didn't like walk around and button down t-shirts and a tie.
It's like 90 degrees and a humidity point of 100.
And, you know, my mom used to always talk about, you know, in the Orthodox Jews walkaround, because she's Jewish, but she just could not get with that.
When she gets hot, she gets overstimulated.

(01:08:15):
She used talk about this time she took her jacket off in Yeshiva and everyone, shoulders.
She had shoulders under that jacket.
And we used to just like, to a certain degree, literally, it's like, I know y'all are hot.
Y'all are hot.
And...
You're not better because you're suffering.

(01:08:37):
So this is something I try to explain to white people that I'm like, I know that heatsucks, but you're not supposed to be in heat trying not to sweat.
You're supposed to be in heat eating spicy food and sweating more because that's whatkeeps you cool.
Like...

(01:08:58):
Right, but it's also that comfort-seeking, the like, easiness.
it's, I don't know, I make fun of my husband for this all the time because like his onerequirement when we travel is we have to have air conditioning.
And I'm always telling him that I'm like the places that don't have air conditioningusually don't need air conditioning for a lot of stuff.

(01:09:20):
But a lot of it is you just have to get used to being there and living like this, right?
So for me, like I'm super temperature sensitive, either hot or cold.
But because I grew up in South America, give me like a day and now I've just clicked intobeing hot.
know, Brazilians take literally three showers a day, wearing clothes that are loose andcover you from sun, right?

(01:09:45):
Different things like that.
it's like, things like, yeah, things like understanding, like sweating cools you down.
Like this is what your body is supposed to do in this situation, but you're trying toavoid the conflict of sweating.
you can't control for everything.
But in America, we're like, well, we'll build these really, it's just crazy.

(01:10:06):
And then, know, talked about the huts, huts don't need her.
so in Brazil, right, where it's 80, 90 degrees, people hang out outside.
And in Texas, they just freeze every building to be like 55 degrees to try to like undothe heat outside.

(01:10:26):
It just, it drives me bonkers.
tell me more, you're not supposed to be here.
Like, just, it shouldn't be this hard to live.
You know, it shouldn't take up this much energy.
And you know, they say that this is better, somehow.
You just have to carry a jacket around in spring and fall and summer in Texas just to beinside in class.

(01:10:48):
Like why?
Why am I in a tank top and a jean skirt carrying a jacket around?
so much to do it.
And so like you can't complain.
I mean you can, but it's like, what is this?
This doesn't make sense.
And it also is gas, it's like gas lighting internally.

(01:11:10):
You're like not trusting your body at all, at all.
Like I need this machine pumping out cold.
And we're all.
Here's one that you'll love is that in the military, I don't even think it's the basecommander.
Someone decides when the air conditioning goes on and off and it is not based on like whatis going on.

(01:11:37):
It's based on a date that has been decided and it's like one date for most of the countryand it's just like, it's so bonkers.
It's so bonkers.
So you're always.
You're always sweating in April and freezing in October and it's just, it's justludicrous.

(01:11:58):
You know, and we just like are like the military.
Like it's just, we need this.
We need this functionality because if we didn't have this, we'd all be making decisionsfor ourselves.
Like that's, you know.

(01:12:20):
think it's that too that bothers me, right?
Like when I was saying, like in places that don't have air conditioning, you don't needair conditioning, people would be like, well you do need it.
And it's like, no, they just in a different way, right?
Like we don't spend enough time thinking about what air conditioning has changed for us.

(01:12:41):
I literally think it has impacted our sense of community because when it's too hot, you'reinside instead of.
Outside hanging out in the shady areas dancing and eating ice cream.
You're like inside your house with air conditioning
sweating is for people who try hard or who are like exerting a lot of effort.
you know, delicate people don't do that.

(01:13:03):
Like they don't sweat, they don't have sweat stains.
That's for the, here's the working class.
I've heard this phrase recently.
I've obviously I've heard it, but I don't know if it's just European, but like as opposedto.
the ruling class, is that the other one?

(01:13:24):
I'm just now really, I was just like, what's the, what's the, the working class?
Cause people say it right now.
I heard someone like just talking about India and Britain and he said something that Idon't like, the advantages of living in the UK versus the US.
I was like, how we get in it?
He's from India talking about the UK, how I know it's better than the UK.

(01:13:46):
Anyway, anyway.
But then he was like, I need working class.
Brits to know they don't like you either, right?
And working class.
Working class.
But then who's lazy?
If there is a working class, that confuses me so much.

(01:14:08):
And it's how you're still using that language and you don't hear.
mean, I doesn't, I just deconstructed, like, ruling class?
Were there more?
Cause I really thought there was no other, the working class, the ruling class.
And then also the word class.
I wonder how we got that so much.
Like classes, we're going to our classes.

(01:14:29):
Like we don't have that system, it's just a different kind of cast.
So it was working only for some, and they're admitting that?
It's very confusing.
The gaslighting is really gaslighting and that's very European for them to be like, it'sso much better.

(01:14:51):
Cause racism is so bad in America.
it's so much better.
you know, you were saying like, like sweat stains aren't bad.
And it's like, well, one, sweat stains aren't bad.
And two, like you wear white linen dresses and stuff, and then you don't have to deal withthe sweat stains.
know, like you just wear clothes that don't show sweat stains.
Like, you just deal, yeah.

(01:15:14):
sweat.
I'm gonna sweat, so what will I, now, instead of saying, this is what's on trend, so thisis what I have to wear, and now I have to make my body get into that, fit that, and stay
like that all the time, versus like, okay, what's me?
What am I feeling today?
What will make this the easiest?
When I went to Thailand, it was so hot.

(01:15:35):
And I just had a bunch of like flowy one piece outfits and then.
I have never sweat so much, but it didn't bother me where it would bother me in apantsuit.
Right, right.
But like if I'm in a pantsuit and I'm sweating, I guess I'll be a little bit morecrotchety.
And you've got lot more concerns going if you're sweating and you could see it in yoursuit.

(01:16:01):
What does that mean?
means you're working class.
You know, you can't say you're working like the working class thing.
I don't know.
that's like England has.
They have no idea what they sound like, I guess, maybe because they really think they'remuch better.
I guess they have you.
have health care, so.

(01:16:23):
OK, you have health care.
Good for you.
Great Britain.
I seen Trump or Noah's bit on that.
No, know, but you're right.
They so many names.
he does a British guy arriving in India telling him he's from Great Britain.
Okay, well then welcome to Great India.

(01:16:43):
He's like, you can't call your son.
Right?
But even this, right?
I always say so like when you, the word the, when you put the in the title, little bitculty.
And I tell you what, I have worked with the Five Eyes, which is the five Western whiteEnglish speaking nations of, and of the five, the United States and the UK.

(01:17:13):
are definitely more culty than the Canada, the Australia, and the New Zealand.
Ooh, that's so interesting because when I just was thinking also the United Kingdom andyou know how I feel about the United States, what do you mean?
You can't just say it's United.
It's United.
It's one thing.

(01:17:34):
The, the.
that have ever united.
the 50 states of America, you divided it into, and then United Kingdom.
didn't even think about it, because also how many names do you need?
And then Britain and Great Britain and England and the United Kingdom.
It's this big.
It's this big.
It's not that great.

(01:17:55):
It's come.
the cult you have to keep rebranding, you know, and I always say like, I don't do cultrebranding, you know, like Amy Coney Barrett is in a cult called People of Praise.
It's like a Catholic evangelical cult and they used to be called Handmaids.
And after the show came out, they like changed it and people keep trying to tell me that.

(01:18:16):
And I'm like, no, I don't care.
Like the Children of God hasn't been called the Children of God since before I was born.
Like I don't, the rebranding is just about hiding, right?
It's the white out.
It's just the white out.
Like it's the same thing.
Yeah.
the amendments, it's the street name changing, it's anything but doing something, right?

(01:18:36):
They just rebrand, all right, Diddy, Puff Daddy, Puffy, Diddy, Brother Lup, like, youknow, people change their names, the people's, the family, then how many families, you
know, there's all these cults, they change their names, changing your name.
But if you believe that what you are, what you do and how you perform, then a new name,I'm a new business.

(01:18:56):
And narcissists like to say, like, I don't know who that was.
That was, or people apologizing on the internet.
I didn't know who that person was all those years ago.
I don't even see myself.
That was you.
It's, it's okay to still be you, but to distance yourself from your own being is not asign that you are an authentic, like individual, individual who can be trusted.

(01:19:20):
And also, and I think maybe a good place to wrap this up today, like if you did the workto not be that person anymore, then you know who that was and you know what your path was
and you can talk about that and acknowledge that.
If you have to say it, you ain't it.
I would say that like the whole like when certain things, if you have to say it, you know,it's innocent until proven guilty.

(01:19:44):
I think now I'm, you know, there's certain things you don't have to say.
It's like the defending thing.
I'm not going to tell you I'm smart.
Once I realized I had to say that to my boss, I started to realize something's wrong here.
I have never had to tell someone I'm smart.
Like, I know things.
I know how to write emails, sir.
And I was like, something's wrong here.

(01:20:05):
Because I literally, it's like, I just had that.
I knew that thing.
It feels like when women say, at least he didn't cheat, at least he didn't cheat until hecheats, then they're like, that's enough.
I have to leave.
Smart was the thing I had.
Okay.
And people didn't like me, but I was smart.
And despite everything else, in terms of like, I could follow the rules and I knew how toanswer tests and stuff.

(01:20:27):
Not like actually inherently better in any way, but.
I feel like this is like the late diagnosed neurodivergent woman.
Like, people didn't like me.
I was smart.
But I knew that you couldn't be mad at a hundred percent dad, you know, so it was kind oflike that thing.
So once someone I realized I had to explain to someone that I was smart, I was like,something's wrong here.

(01:20:49):
And that's unfortunate, but that's what gaslighting does.
keep telling people because people keep talking about you know RFK's thing of like puttingneurodivergent people in camps and I'm just like can you imagine the shenanigans that late
diagnosed autistic women would run in your camps like I dare you sir, I dare you.

(01:21:11):
All of the things that we know with all of our crazy interests.
Right?
And all of the things they want are like things of the past that we've already heard.
Like they're not even entertaining.
So like, I think have fun with it.
We get to go to camp?
Because you gonna pay?
they say that to me and I'm like, I grew up in a labor camp.
Like, alternately, I call it religious prison camp, but like, you know, like I've donethis.

(01:21:35):
Like I, I can take RFK better than he could take me.
Like, let's go.
And like call the bluff.
He's just, everyone now has to listen to him cause he said the blacks, blah, blah, blah.
All I know is he said something about the blacks.
I mean, this is another thing I say when people are like, okay, so what if this?
What if that?

(01:21:55):
And I'm just like, think of the logistics.
Think of the logistics of putting 10 % of Americans in camp.
come, give it a couple extra thoughts and go, what's the likelihood?
And what, what if something else, like move the Overton window a little bit over to thelike, what if people had something that actually cared about?

(01:22:16):
They would abandon this thing if they were given a better option.
People like to go where they're going to enjoy themselves more, but you keep giving themonly terrible options.
Gotta go to the
Yeah, the part that's bumping back there.
They'll go there.
You be like, the right room, the correct room.

(01:22:39):
Ugh, great.
This is what I put on my threads after we had the conversation about the knitter word andI said, I just found out that some black people get a little triggered by white people
saying this word.
And you know what?
It's almost just as easy to say fiber arts.

(01:22:59):
We don't need that knitting supremacy.
Like we're just trying to have a fiber arts party over here.
Exactly, it's inclusive.
It centers.
I didn't even think about it that way until people were kind of responding to my video.
Like, and it includes more people.
And it makes me feel like I'm the center of the thing, not the thing I'm making.
I'm the fiber artist.

(01:23:19):
I'm working with some stuff.
like, because I never even liked, what are you making?
What are you making?
What are you making?
Is that really about that?
Because I don't know.
I'm just, I'm just stimming.
I'm just having a good time and I'm learning how to do it without looking.
And I'm feeling really excited about that.
You know, so it's like,
That's community is putting an idea out there.
Like you said, like, this is what I know.

(01:23:40):
And I said, this is what I know.
I know that I hear, I hear that weird, the hard R in knitter.
And that's all I know.
And then I found out all these other things and fiber artists and like, look at that.
It could be that easy.
literally, I put that on my page and people were getting all mad.
I didn't even look at the comments one time.
After the first time, I was just like, nope, I don't care.

(01:24:01):
Like, I've given you an option, now I'm gonna be at the fiber arts party.
Like, come join us or stay over here arguing.
that's what I put.
I was like, the other side is like, your pronouns.
Meanwhile, we're over here just trying to have a fiber arts party.
we just be.
I've always thought this.

(01:24:21):
was like, literally, like if someone said, don't, you know how people hate the word moist,right?
And if I was in like a relationship or a friendship with someone that I knew hated thatword, I would try to not say that word around them.
to me, this has always just been so easy of like, just, we could just be respectful.

(01:24:43):
Yeah, there's some kind of combat.
conflict, right?
But we can be respectful of each other all the time.
And I think that's what is important in the end.
It's just consideration.
That's it.
Just consideration.
And you don't have to do anything.
But it's easy enough to just listen.

(01:25:03):
No proof.
listen.
And speaking of listening, please find Rebecca on her Patreon, White Woman Whisperer.
She writes really, really good stuff, including the end of my next book, The Culting ofAmerica.
Her links will be in the description, as will the link for the fundraiser for Culting ofAmerica.
If you are interested in donating to that process, coming very soon, I hope.

(01:25:28):
The link for the fundraiser will be there.
We've already raised three grand, which just covers the audiobooks.
So there will be an audiobook.
And like and subscribe our channel.
Thank you so much.