Episode 31 | Defensiveness and White Identity - Hey White Women

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
So when you go into a business, there isn't a whole new character you can put on.

(00:04):
You're always black.
And like, we know that, you know that.
There is a level of dehumanization that's just not going to happen from us to us.
And so like, I think about Severance, the show Severance, where they go into this businessand now they have, I don't, I didn't watch the whole show.
They just forget who they are on the outside.
But I feel like it would be much easier for white people to have that thing happen becausethey're like right there.

(00:25):
Just turn it off.
Black people.
Yeah, there's some elements of our genes that just can't be severed.
Cause look, the mirror, you you're, you can't just be a whole new person.
There's something that I think is taught in whiteness and to white women that there is afear to be had of these black spaces, right?

(00:48):
There's, be careful, you know, you know how they are or something without being said, it'ssaid a lot where that is projection.
It gotta be because I've never felt more nervous.
than in rooms of like white women or white people being a little bit uncomfortable.

(01:09):
Black people, all you got to do is be a person that's open to an experience and it's fine.
You don't colonize that space, right?
But I have noticed this, you know, we talk about defensiveness and defensiveness is atenant of white supremacy, but like this pre defensiveness, before we even get to

(01:32):
something happening,
there's that us in them is built in.
last week we were talking about nation of Islam and how there is that Nash, there anatural us in them that is happening that they use between white people and black people.
Right.
But white women specifically, I think can do that as well, or have done that with whitefeminism.

(01:56):
because men.
Right.
Men.
Men are so scary.
Men are so terrible.
Men are so violent.
They do these terrible things.
And so when I present these things online that are like, women, know how men are, or whitewomen are the men of women, basically.

(02:17):
I say that.
There is this visceral, how dare you compare us to this other, this them.
and just realizing that they don't, you attack me.
because there's an us and them, right?
Because I'm supposed to be us and don't divide us, you're dividing us, you're dividing us.
And I'm like, what?

(02:39):
What's happening here?
I thought I was talking to, you know, there is, it's always in place.
That to be, so in response to that, I kind of put out a post saying, hey, it can be thiseasy if you just listened without defensiveness and doubling down and.
hyper fixating on hypothetical harms.

(03:01):
I put a little sound to it.
I, it can just be all right.
It can be a break, you know, somehow it hurts you or something shocks you.
Doesn't hurt by the way, but a lot of white women have said this really hurt to hear.
Fine.
I, but fine.
So I'm doing that video and I'm knitting while I'm doing it.
Right.

(03:21):
And someone brings up and it says, they think I'm talking about you.
They think I'm talking about you, Danielle.
Right?
They say, this makes me think you're talking about, a woman who furiously knits whiletalking about things.
And while I do love her content, this is very true.
And I, it took me like a day and I knew I didn't, I didn't like it.

(03:44):
And the person I understand, they did not mean any harm.
They like you, they like me, they like what I said, but they read into my...
It was like the most coddled thing I've ever posted.
And I wonder if they're talking about defensiveness overall, you know?

(04:05):
Because, so what I get a lot is people being like, well, so you don't let anyone questionyou, right?
And I, actually, like hundreds of thousands of people are asking me questions every day.
Like the main content that I post is responding to people's questions.

(04:25):
I don't let individuals who have established no authority in my area of expertise justtell me that I'm wrong or just play gotcha with me.
So like a lot of people, I talked about how cults aren't easy to pass down.
And so a lot of people were like, boom, Scientology.

(04:49):
And you know, finally I'd had a little bit too much and I was like, if you do not know howto discuss the exact significance of David Miscavige who was in place for decades and how
much it did fracture Scientology, then please sit down.
Right?
I, if this is what I'm thinking, right?
This is a good example because I don't think I'm that defensive when I talk aboutwhiteness.

(05:14):
Like I'm here to learn.
I...
I wasn't slamming people down for explaining Drake and Kendrick Lamar to me, right?
Like it's a very specific boundary that I have that I think people like translate as this.
So you know what, didn't even think that far into it.

(05:37):
Like no part of me was like, I wonder what they're trying to say about her.
I was more like, I made this video, one, that had nothing, it was just, okay, so I thinkthe title of it said, POV, you're a well-meaning white woman listening to me without being
defensive, doubling down, or focusing on hypothetical harms, right?

(06:00):
And it's just me going, okay, okay.
And they go, okay, all right, thank you.
Right, so I'm so proud of this video, right?
And, but also it shouldn't have to be this hard just for me to explain to white womenlike, hey, stop yelling at me.
I'm trying to help.
yeah, so first of all, I shared that video and I thought that was a little bit of acompliment to me because I was like, I think we're achieving this.

(06:23):
Like we're achieving this mix of listening and not being defensive.
And even, I just think when you say hearing this hurt me, that's such an example ofhypothetical harms.
Like, does hearing hurt?
That's not how this works, guys.
And I understand what they're saying, it's like that hurt.

(06:46):
Being compared to literally men, men and women are compared all the time.
And now you think you can actually be one kind of, like what have you done to men in yourmind?
And that is kind of where the us and them, you're not seeing your humanity now.
You're seeing you're more human than them.
The way white women are calling men animals in my comment section,

(07:06):
It sounds very racist to me and it's like, don't make me defend men.
This is crazy.
Men are human too.
Like I have to say that.
I've gone right around now to defending men.
How dare you white women do this to me?
where like, wait, this you, you overcorrected and
people make me defend the military.

(07:27):
I'm like, come on.
How dare you?
And this always happens anytime I'm trying to, and that's how I know it's kind of likeyou've gone too far, some of these white women.
Because if you think this is the hardest thing I've had to, that's fine.
But you're saying it out loud to me.
And I think that's interesting too.
I'm fine with that.

(07:47):
I don't think that hurts my feelings, but it's like, so many of you guys say this.
I don't think, if you, what?
Anyway.
But the, so I make that video, they think it's about you.
I'm just one person and I didn't mean harm, but more just like my tone as well.
So like our first episode or whatever episode it was that, you know, I said something, youknow, to you where I'm like kind of correcting you or something.

(08:11):
And it's like, this is so scary and so bad and she's so harsh.
And I'm thinking, I'm being the night and I don't know if that's black woman is autism orthe combination.
but someone had said in the comments, like, cause I was trying to explain that it, I'mtrying to be so nice and that white women still think I'm coming for you.
You know, obviously one, don't know we work together, maybe this person didn't know.

(08:35):
So it's like, no, I wasn't talking about you, but yeah, I guess I was talking about you.
Cause I'm talking about white women in general who listened to me and you're one of them.
And so, you know, I made this whole video about it and I guess people are going to find usnow.
So that's why I was kind of wanting to bring it up too.
Cause like, you're like,
This makes me so happy.
love they, and then there's a comment saying, and this is fine.

(08:58):
my God.
I, I was so scared.
I thought you and Daniela were about to have a beef.
Like I was, they thought I was about to come on the internet and say, here's my problemwith an editing cult lady.
Right.
And I think white women don't realize just because they love me.
Right.
And they think I would win in a tech, in a technical fight against you about blackness.

(09:21):
But that would not work out well for me.
I would never win.
There would be no reason for me to come to the internet and say, have a problem.
This is such like an adversarial understanding of what we're doing here.
And this reminds me, so it reminds me of a conversation I had with my husband, who when Ifirst started really like finding my voice, right?

(09:46):
And doing this stuff and putting myself out there, it always, I always had a very strongfeminist bent, right?
Like I was writing about the patriarchy in college at 19, in Jane Austen, right?
So like, I've always been this.
And my husband said to me one day, he said, know, I think you're starting to care moreabout feminism than about our marriage.

(10:11):
Right?
And it was such like, it was such a man thing to say, right?
Cause it's like this, this not understanding of like, it's like you said, it's not eitheror, right?
I care about this all of the time.
But one of the things I said to him was, babe, feminism is not me against you.
I'm not trying to get you to my side, right?

(10:33):
Is about both of us fighting so that our girl child doesn't have a one in three chance ofbeing assaulted before she gets to college, right?
Like that's what we're doing here.
So this conversation, it's not about you versus me.
It's not about you convincing me that I'm wrong.

(10:54):
And I actually, I think, right?
Just thinking about this, right?
Because I did see that and I did think,
it was a little bit of a kudos toward the work that we were doing.
And I think the only difference between me and another white woman is I don't need todefend the soul sucking racist cult that I came from.

(11:19):
And so when I find something in my brain, right, like, where did that come from?
Right?
The first time I almost blurted out, get your
cotton picking fingers, I stopped myself.
Horribly, horribly racist thing to say.
But I was just like, where did I get that from?

(11:41):
Right?
That came from my mom, who was also born and raised in a cult.
That came from whoever, right?
And I just, walked through that and then I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna do this anymore.
I'm not gonna say this anymore.
And like, I have to say, I have to bring up
the knitting thing that I put on threads.

(12:01):
Like I went back today, right?
So this is what I said, right?
I said, I just found out that some black people are uncomfortable when white people saythe word knitter fast or, you know, like something like that, right?
Like it has to do with the beginning and the hard R sound.

(12:24):
And I said, you know what?
it's just as easy to say fiber arts.
And turns out we don't have to have that knitting supremacy.
And then I said, the other side is all fuck your pronouns.
Meanwhile, over here, we're just trying to have a fiber arts party.
And like the way everybody attacked me and white people, of course, telling me that I'mracist because what I'm saying is that black people can't understand white people.

(12:55):
And they're like, just the amount of flipping out that went on, like I didn't hang outthere to read it.
So just like the amount of flipping out.
I think it comes from this idea of shame, right?
That now there's some shame in the fact that I used that word in the past, or I'm sayingthat if you use it, you're a bad person.

(13:20):
When literally all I am saying,
is like the equivalent of Rebecca said she doesn't like the word moist.
So now I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try to not use it when I talk to her, you know?
I didn't say when people use this word, I don't know what white people think happens whenyou appear, you see them as something they decide they are not.

(13:44):
Now you are a terrible, terrible person.
like all of it.
You don't have to pretend you didn't read the thread and you'll be fine, you know, but theborrowed outrage, this, I'm so uncomfortable with what you said, but I can't.
figure out why and I need it to be this moral self-whiteness.

(14:05):
So now I'm gonna use black people to say they should be offended at you.
And now I'm, if you don't go take a nap, take a nap.
it's very, there were black people at Jonestown energy, right?
Anytime I bring up why white people are so prone to joining cults or the fact that we'vegiven up community for whiteness, I get white people going, there were black people at

(14:31):
Jonestown.
And I'm like, you, I guarantee, I guarantee you cannot tell me how many black people diedat Jonestown.
I can't, right?
And like, you're not bringing it up.
because you care about the issues in the black community that cause these people to beable to be exploited that were probably caused by American dynamics in the first place by

(14:56):
white America.
know, like that's not the conversation you're trying to have.
You're just up here going like not all white people, like stop.
shut up.
They're just saying, hey, stop, stop it.
Stop talking like this.
It's making, hey, cut it out.
Literally, cause they'll say whatever to me.
So, you know, I posted that thing and I've got people calling me racist all over theplace.

(15:18):
Anytime I mention white women, I say white women, cause it doesn't really matter what I'msaying.
Actually, what I said was, the white feminist is telling me about the, no, I, I was reallyintentional.
the sound was, you about to ruin this moment?
And I absolutely am.
But it was, you know, when a white feminist is spitting facts about the harms ofpatriarchy.

(15:40):
And I'm about to tell her white women are the men of women.
Right.
So I'm acknowledging she's telling the truth.
She's saying some things, but people aren't taking into context.
She talking to me, this hypothetical woman, I just made up for this TikTok.
And they go immediately to defend her because they think I must be about to yell attack.
They say these.

(16:01):
terrible things about me and this hypothetical woman I've made up who's telling me aboutpatriarchy and how harmful it is.
The races, you are dividing us.
You are...
without taking a step back.
just want to say for the record though, I want you to tell me if I'm doing shitty things,right?

(16:22):
One, that's kind of the point, right?
And I'm gonna try to not, and I'm gonna try to not be defensive.
And also, I'm a human, right?
to people who are, this is a choice.
This is voluntary, but you would think the way the white, and then they demand answers.

(16:43):
Right?
This makes no sense.
So how, no, well, white women and their rhetorical questions.
How is this not dividing us more?
Question.
That's not how, huh.
You know, but it's so beneficial for women to understand.
want them activated.
Right?
It's those people who,
are kind of sitting there.

(17:03):
think about if white women want to talk about the Kevin Frankie of the situation, you gotRuby Frankie, you know, with the eight passengers putting her kids out, doing the more
overt arm and the man who just is there and he loves her so much.
And, you know, this is the one instance where the man is the covert one.
But if he had done something, stepped up and cared enough to see outside himself and hiscomfort.

(17:28):
and care about those kids and he's still to this day is, you know, speak.
Those are the people I'm to talk to and go, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, have control overthis.
And he's gonna yell at me.
about, when I talk about single family cults, right, and I say usually it's headed up by anarcissist and an enabler, both of whom are abusers.

(17:50):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Without the enabler.
choose the child, you protect the child, right?
Like being an enabler, you don't know like how bad it would be for the adult.
I know it will be less bad for the adult than for the children.

(18:14):
Like you protect the children.
That's why you're an abuser.
If you're an enabler, you are stronger.
and you are allowing it to happen.
Right, you are supporting this relationship where the vulnerable and the overtly harmfulare together in a room.
You make that happen because they wouldn't be near each other if it weren't for you.

(18:37):
And that's kind of how I look at white women with this.
And they talk about men, men, men, men, men, like, I don't know what a man is.
I'm not 35 years old and a woman.
That's super true.
There's a book called Misguided by a man named Perry Bulbor.
And he was a 16 year old boy who was manipulated into the children of God and spent 20years, right?

(19:01):
And I am pretty comfortable saying like he was one of the good ones, right?
He was a driver.
He was always like nice to the kids, right?
No one has bad things to say about him when he saw actual abuse.
he left pretty quickly.
And still at the end of his book, he gives this beautiful, full, just unqualified apology.

(19:26):
And he actually says that, right?
Like I wasn't the one abusing the children, but I was a part of keeping the system goingand upholding the system that abused children, right?
I would have not been in a basement with a pedophile if he had not been part of thatsystem.

(19:51):
And it's that, right?
And I do feel a little bit like it's heartbreaking, right?
Cause he's the least guilty person, but he's still a guilty person.
that is where, that is where I put the white women like me.
where I'm like never had a conscious, never had a conscious bad thought about a blackperson.

(20:13):
Never was like, I think of you as less human than me, but this system that I operated in,that you have operated in, it was benefiting me to your harm, I was part of upholding it,
and we're the ones that are gonna do this work.
Right.

(20:34):
When I had...
to do it because the ones actively harming people in the system, like they're notstopping.
You can't be waiting for them to stop.
That's for you.
What are you, what are you, are we just adapting to that?
No.
And that's why I said when I was in the corporate cultiness era of my life, it was thewhite women who let me down the most, who betrayed my sense of like woman togetherness.

(20:57):
Cause I believed in it.
I believed when they said nice things or smiled or whatever.
They said, come to me if you have anything.
Cause I'm in HR.
Like I believed it.
And when I would watch them let this man lie right to our faces and they wouldn't sayanything.
I like, you just watched him say, I invited you all here to this meeting when you and Ihad the pre meeting and said, okay, I'm going to invite him.

(21:24):
And so we know that's not, and just, I don't know, weird start.
think that sits with me and he could say things and I'm sorry if you feel the, and she'slooking at me and I've cried before.
Anyway, I just think.
You expect certain things.
It's those closest to you that can cause you the most harm.
And I think people understand this most of the time.

(21:46):
Stranger danger isn't as bad as that betrayal trauma, you know, in terms of the relevanceand the outlasting harm when you are gaslit.
When you go to the person who can save you, can remove this person from your dailyexistence and they say, well,
What?
I will tell you this, the first person who ever said to me, boys will be boys, was thisboy named Brian Friedman's mom, after he punched me in the stomach and I was like, I'm

(22:12):
gonna tell your mom.
And I was waiting all day and I told his mom and she said, oh, well, boys will be boys.
And I can see where I was standing, I know it, I remember that moment.
And then I told my mom and she was pissed.
And that was more validating, because I didn't tell my mom and then she goes, well, youknow.
white women will be white women.

(22:32):
I don't know what the version of that is, but like she was mad with me.
And we talk about that still.
was like, six, I don't know.
But realizing just cause you aren't holding the gun, but you brought in the guy with thegun to protect you from, know, cause guys have guns.
So you got to bring yours.
You're just, you're supporting this and more than supporting it.

(22:57):
when you enable it.
think that's more than that.
I think Kevin Frankie is gonna tell his kids, but your mom loves you.
Instead of, I'm so sorry that I left for a year and let this torture happen to you.
Those kids were torturing and I want white women to really understand that was mostlywhite women doing that, right?

(23:19):
A white woman who was already abusive to her kids, putting it on the internet for whitewomen to watch.
and white people to watch and for all these other people to watch her kids.
And she put them out there and, put the abuse out and the audience watched, clicked,people sponsored, you know, and, and that's interesting.
CPS was called, they didn't do anything.

(23:40):
So Kevin was the, is really, he could really make these kids' lives a lot better withemotional support and awareness and deconstructing himself.
he's not, you know, he's probably going to say.
Wow, let's have lunch with her.
Continuing the harm, continuing the trauma, bringing her around, because he still said inthe documentary recently that he loves her, and that's the love of his life.

(24:00):
And he was inculted with her, I believe, because she had her whole list of what a good manis.
he...
I, you know, make the little castles, like you said, and sometimes it's a woman in charge,like get on.
and you know, this is where it comes back.
I know, I think we talked about this last time, but I know we talked about this before,but like every member, every adult member, let's say for people's peace of mind in a cult

(24:26):
is a perpetrator, right?
Like just because they're abusing you too, just because you've also been brainwasheddoesn't mean
that you're not also a perpetrator, right?
It only works if we're all policing each other.

(24:47):
know, there is, I mean, it's still just like embarrassing for me to think of in my wholeepisode in the military where my career is blowing up, right?
And like, I'm having to enforce this woman who's falling apart and like, I'm the one thathas to tell her like,

(25:07):
Hey, your hair is not okay today, right?
Hey, like, you still need to show up on time.
Like, hey, you still, you know, and it's like, sucks looking back, you know?
And I didn't think I had a choice and still I was, you know, in many ways, probably likecausing harm, furthering the harm that was being caused to someone who had already been

(25:32):
harmed because we're all in this system having to uphold it.
Right?
like...
that isn't, and acknowledging that and feeling that doesn't cause more harm to you.
It causes more awareness and resilience because you can see it now.
Now you know you're not going to do that again.
Back then, you believed it was right.

(25:55):
You were feeling self-righteous.
And in order to do that, you have to dehumanize yourself and go, well, if it when it wasme, had it.
Right.
And it's, now it's okay for them.
and the dehumanization, those rules, what I consider like the Jodi Hildebrandt of, right,or the Mormon culture of rules is what allows for these people to go in and manipulate and

(26:19):
feel like, well, I'm not a, this is how it has to happen.
My hands are tied.
No, they're not.
But, you know, this is just what I have to, it happened to me.
There's always just the justification for torture, for oppressive behavior.
it's like, know, especially now understanding how much appearance and attitude control areweapons.

(26:41):
They're weapons for breaking people, right?
And it's like, I had to, before I could get to this place where I was policing someoneelse, right?
I had to first dehumanize myself and turn myself into perfect plastic Captain Barbie.
You know, and this is what the skinny skinny blonde woman song in the musical is going tobe about.

(27:04):
It's about going from this like spunky, not perfect, know, pixie, hair cutted lieutenantto the perfect captain, you know, and this was, you know, the way I write about it in my
book was kind of like this was the double bind for women.
Right, you had to, so I have a chapter called I'm the Bitch, right?
And they tell you, when you come into the military, women in the military, you're either abitch, a slut, or a de-slur for lesbian, right?

(27:34):
And the implication is you're supposed to be a stone cold bitch, you know?
And this, I will tell you, this is what the White Women Get Ready Healing Post TraumaticMistress Syndrome book is about.
It's about
Like, so we know that me policing this girl probably caused her more harm, but it alsocaused me harm, right?

(28:00):
Like whipping somebody else can also hurt your arm, you know?
Like we as white women, as the beneficiaries of this system, we have harm from upholdingthis system.
And so part of unpacking that,
and healing that is like, have to heal the harm that was done to us or that we did toourself that dehumanized us enough to allow us to own human beings, right?

(28:32):
Or be part of this system.
Cause without that, you are trying to help the lesser fortune.
It's more, it's manifest destiny.
Again, you went right back to white savior where you think this is something outside ofyou.
That, that whiteness, white supremacist culture, black, all that stuff is just, you know,that's out there.

(28:54):
That's in the world.
And you're not in the world.
You're not of the world.
You're special.
You're, you know, but no.
No, you're part of it.
It happened to you.
It happened to us.
Black people are not asking for you to suffer in the name of their own suffering.
That's some, I don't know, Bible stuff.
We're asking you to stop it.

(29:17):
You know, go away, go sit in your head of humility, figure out what was going on with youthat made you do this.
Not, cause people still think what we want is more attention, affection and liking fromwhite people.
That my goal is, you know, they're never going to like you now girl.
Ew.
I want, you know, I ask white women, what would you want men to do?

(29:37):
men, my God, realize today, I'm causing harm even though I don't think I'm one of the badones.
What would you want them to do?
Not go find more women and tell them about it.
That would be self-serving, wouldn't it?
That would try to get them closer to just going to women.
No, you'd want them to tell their friends, tell their family, just work on themselves andfigure out more about it, be more interested out loud and stuff like that.

(30:01):
not become a man hater themselves.
I'm not asking white women to hate themselves, be shameful, have feel this deep heartbreakof being like a man.
What?
What do you think men are?
That makes me nervous.
but this is why I also think that like, you know, I think like when you deconstruct thewhiteness, right, or whatever it is, you have deconstructed blackness, right?

(30:28):
And like, that doesn't mean you get to opt out of the system, you know?
Like that doesn't mean like we are not still both operating in these systems.
But I think the whole purpose of deconstructing whiteness is then you understand theconstruct and what it is and how it works.

(30:52):
So you can use whiteness as a shield for those who don't have it, who are still operatingin this system.
And you can use it as a weapon against those people.
And that's the point.
Yeah, that's the point.
And so it's just like, yeah, like I, as an officer in the military, which I believe is atoxic system, right?

(31:16):
Like obviously I contributed to harming people, but now that I have deconstructed that,right?
Like I was still a captain in the army, right?
It's still, my words are still more powerful than that private because of the positionthat I held.
And because we're still in the system that like, you know, I've had people even ask methis, they're like, oh, well, if you, you know, talk such shit about the army, why do you

(31:43):
keep saying that you were a captain in the army?
I'm like, because the system that we are in still respects that.
Right, and you still did- wh- what do mean-
I know, I know.
There's also that, right?
Like all of my experience is mine to talk about and I say that too.
It's giving like a move forward.
We talked about this already.
Like, like your life isn't your life because you're living right now.

(32:06):
What do you, whoa, know, slavery happened so long ago.
None of my family owned anybody.
It's the same kind of like, don't talk about this.
Shut up.
It's all silencing and it's for whose benefit because they're feeling defensive.
It doesn't matter what you're actually saying.
It's this is why you can't talk.
and I hate that.
But for me also, I, I

(32:27):
want white women to consider the context of me understanding like, did this first so thatI could share it with you.
I have privileges.
I'm a black woman, yes.
I'm a lighter skinned black woman.
I'm biracial with proximity to some whiteness and understanding like positive experienceswith it, which is a privilege I didn't realize I had till I talked to a lot of other
people with white moms.

(32:49):
So I use that to speak to my experiences and my, just my experiences.
and what I think and how I feel.
Once I realized it can benefit other people because of my, I went to corporate America.
saw what it looks like there.
I also recruited black women or I tried to, I spoke highly of this system and the businessschool and all that stuff.

(33:15):
I was like, this is great.
And so I feel that.
And that's another reason I do a lot of this so that I can maybe undo some of the harm Imay have caused.
to myself and to other people.
that adds to what I'm saying now.
doesn't take a, what do you mean?
Ex-Cult members are the, would you be like, I'm gonna tell you a lot about Scientology,but never talk about the fact that I was in Scientology?

(33:43):
That doesn't have a part to do with the story?
know, Mike Rinder was so impactful in taking down Scientology and Leah Remini because theywere so loudly Scientologists.
Yeah, but you know...
I'm sorry to anyone I caused harm to.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
It doesn't hurt you to acknowledge you were part of the system that caused nothing'shappening to you.

(34:07):
But that character assassination thing where they think their character is who they are.
That's the scary part.
That's that whiteness thing that I feel like black people don't get ever fully separatefrom themselves because we're always visibly black.
So when you go into a business, there isn't a whole new character you can put on.
You're always black.
And like, we know that, you know that.

(34:29):
There is a level of dehumanization that's just not going to happen from us to us.
And so like, I think about Severance, the show Severance, where they go into this businessand now they have, I don't, I didn't watch the whole show.
They just forget who they are on the outside.
But I feel like it would be much easier for white people to have that thing happen becausethey're like right there.
Just turn it off.
Black people.
Yeah, there's some elements of our genes that just can't be severed.

(34:52):
Cause look, the mirror, you you're, you can't just be a whole new person.
So, you know, this thing about like, who you are being separate from who you are, or whatyou do being separate from who you are.
So like, between talking with you and you saying like, communities don't just throw peopleaway, right?

(35:13):
And then I was listening to Kendrick, I think it was Kendrick, but I was listening to rap.
And they were talking about getting out of prison party.
Mm.
And when I tell you, it blew my fucking mind.
Like it just blew my mind, right?

(35:34):
Like one, because of my privilege and because of like basically middle-class privilege, Ihave not been in encounter with a lot of people that know people in prison.
But just like you wouldn't in a white community, they know you're thrown away.
you're a felon now, like we are gonna hide it, we're not gonna talk about it.

(36:00):
And like, I mean, obviously there goes so much discussion into prison culture, but justthe concept of a getting out of prison party just like blew my little white mind.
And I think it is so beautiful, honestly.

(36:20):
Yeah.
Because future you exist and you see a lot of, this is clicking a lot for me.
even got a little goosebumps because I've been really like white people and their ideathat going to jail is it.
That's it.
They, they murder so much to avoid going to jail because it's like, once you're seen asbad guy, you don't exist anymore.

(36:42):
But that's not true.
Like they don't think.
Well, I may go to jail, but literally you're white.
You'll probably be out.
Not that, but like this, cause you're thrown away.
Cause you think, now no one's gonna, what?
They don't even think past that.
It's like this end times thing.
You get caught, getting caught.
sorry, my neighborhood.

(37:04):
I'm just embarrassed with myself, okay?
Like I just said all that and I have more than one sibling who has been in jail and Ijust, and they're fine now, by the way.
Like they're fine, they own companies.
And I just made the case that I didn't have like close connection to prison culture.
And like one, I do.
right?

(37:24):
Cause they, cause it's like, Hmm.
You don't really talk about it.
Just like you don't talk about why people don't talk about money and don't talk aboutthis, but you don't realize in black culture, we talk about all this.
We talk about race.
We talk about politics.
We talk about money.
How much that, how much you pay, you know, and why, because there isn't shame behind itbecause we know it has nothing to do with our actual value for the most part.

(37:48):
Right.
whereas in whiteness.
Everything is what you do.
So, so it makes sense that literally we'll throw you away.
You went to jail.
No, we don't talk about them anymore.
We don't talk about Bruno.
You know, we don't talk about that.
And he went away.
He's no, no.
And I, I see a lot between, you know, those videos of like soldiers coming home and all,you know, I see videos of people coming home from prison.

(38:17):
my goodness.
And that is.
We need to talk, like we need to take that beyond the, this is heartwarming.
Look at the trauma.
These kids.
I mean, the bond of the people getting out of prison after 15 years when they smoked weedand, and the kid just the ripple effects.
So yeah, but I think that that's actually such a, I that's going to stick with me thewhole like, you know, coming home, he's coming home.

(38:44):
He's coming home and that.
You look forward to that day, there's lines on the wire.
They're like, there's only two days you do the day you go in, the day you go out.
But there is no resilience in white culture.
There is no future you thinking it's today, now get survival today.
And survival means everyone thinks you're great all the time.
What are you going to do?
And so family annihilators would rather family annihilate than be perceived as a swindlerand like a bad guy who took money from everybody he knew.

(39:15):
and now is in prison for it for 10 years.
No, actually, I'm not gonna let my kids suffer knowing this and they justify it in theirhead.
And I just think the rights of comfort can take us that far where this is what white menand suicide rates in reality.
every it's every time you see like the stock market crashes and then people killthemselves like what?

(39:37):
What?
I've seen billionaires cry on TV about taxes.
That's what loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy does to these people.
And you have to realize once you get more, that's more to lose.
And their brain is just so hooked on fear of losing it all.
What is it all?

(39:58):
Their reputation, their characters, you know.
And once you realize like, it's fine.
People in my comment section think the worst thing for me to admit I'm racist orsomething.
They come in and they're like, you, so what you're saying is, so you're racist?
And I say, sure, whatever answer gets you out of here.
And they just are like, they think this is the worst thing that could happen.

(40:21):
This, she's going to get caught.
This is going to go, my God, I got.
Not realizing what?
This doesn't hurt anybody.
You know, the racism, the experiencing it is the thing that's supposed to be the badthing.
Not being perceived as someone who could be causing it.
I just, cause I get this all the time too, especially like anytime I talk about myex-husband, if you're new, go listen to our episode three called, whoops, I accidentally

(40:46):
married a white supremacist and people would be like, oh, so you were a racist?
And it's always just so interesting to be like, to be like.
I mean, yeah, of course.
If you wanna stick around for the longer conversation, like didn't think so, it wassubconscious, there's a reason I had to write a whole memoir and spend 10 years
deconstructing white supremacy when I discovered this, but like, yes, yes.

(41:10):
That's what we're trying to undo here.
And they just like, can't.
the worst thing that could happen is this is being thought of.
Cause that's not being thought of for a minute as a racist, because I have an entireTikTok page and they think this is gonna, I'm the first one ever, 400,000 followers and

(41:34):
this is the day she's gonna get caught.
And it's by me, this angry person who said this thing on this, the zoomed inness and usversus them.
And so there was one other thing, you know,
I tried to help and I tried to say, look, if you want to know where to start, go to blackwomen's comment sections.
I've said this before and just read what's happening in black women's comment sectionsbecause there's a lot in there.

(41:56):
There's one, there's community.
There's call and response versus the white people's speak and relate where they just givetheir opinions on stuff.
It goes nowhere.
And it's just like, Hey, let's talk about this thing.
versus just hyping and supporting and building, and just praising, right.
And this person comes in and goes, well, how is this not just separating more people at,can I ask, don't attack me please.

(42:23):
And all he said is I hate this comment.
And that was me sharing.
This is how I feel.
This is on my page.
I hate this comment.
That's an invitation for you to, I didn't say I hate you or whatever, or someone says, Ihope, I hope you don't mind, but don't use hyper fixation this way because people may, you
know,
The white autistics love to come in and be like, I'm sorry, maybe it's cause I'm autistic,but you sometimes we don't.

(42:49):
And then they white-splain to me what autism is.
And that dehumanizes me even more.
I hate this comment.
I do mind.
All I'm trying to do is give them hints.
And then it becomes like, I can't believe, I wonder if it's because I have a rainbow flagin my name that you're doing this.
You know, wow.
So they try to first go, I'm a victim.
I was just trying, please don't attack me.

(43:10):
And then when I don't receive it well.
They will say, this must be because I'm autistic.
This must be because I'm gay.
This must be because I'm zero consideration for maybe I'm wrong.
Wrong would be one of those options.
And it's never, it's always like, no, it must be because of who I am.
And this person just hates me.

(43:31):
This internet stranger who I came to tell something to.
And I just want.
And this is why I don't think, you this is why I actually have a playlist called BroShutdowns, because it's like, y'all need to learn the difference between defensiveness and
like playing gotcha with an expert.
Like when you play gotcha with an expert and you don't got it, you deserve to feel thisway.

(43:56):
Like you deserve to feel embarrassed and to have to hear about like my expertise.
But also...
Like this, you know, I had this, huh.
realized I give them the opposite because I can't, I'm not going to, I withhold it, but Igive it when I withhold it.
like, you said you're an edutainist.
I made that word up.

(44:17):
And they're like, you're an edutainist and all I'm trying to do is connect with you.
And I go, go away.
And it's like almost, but you have, it's so good.
It's so good.
Smart.
Keep going.
Sorry.
Yeah, no, mean, this one woman was like, you keep saying, because I say like high controlreligious systems give you the formula on how to be a cult leader.
And she keeps going, so what's the formula?

(44:37):
I see you answering other people's questions.
So what's the formula?
And I just said to her, said, you think I'm going to give you the formula in 10 minutesfor free?
Like.
what are you gonna do with it?
Why do you want the formula?
too when I was later out walking my dog, I was like, first of all, you don't understandhow insulting you're being that would this have to be someone's entire area of expertise

(45:04):
if you could learn it from a TikTok video?
No.
Oh, and I did also channel you the other day when I told someone they were confusing mewith a dictionary.
I am not a dictionary.
I have expertise.
It's just, I mean, it's just this like, so, you know, but I also had the reallyinteresting experience of like, so when that helicopter crashed, right?

(45:32):
And I was like, it could have just been as cool as being like, we knew Knitting Cult Ladywas an intelligence officer.
We didn't know that her exact expertise was in helicopters crashing and getting shot at,right?
Cool.
Instead, I learned I have a whole group of followers.
that are just trying to catch me making a mistake about my own life.

(45:56):
And I had to like, I had to like, it's funny, I had to do this in the army once, thiscaptain who outranked me kept changing the spelling of my name.
And I had to go to him and say, sir, I promise you, I'm not misspelling my own last name.
Like, please, please, just, just, you know.
And it's very like, I'm not gonna accidentally mess up and like make up a part of my lifethat I forget makes sense.

(46:24):
But then when I sat Mr.
Knitting Coat Lady down in front of the camera, yeah, sure, he's 20 years helicoptermechanic before he was a pilot, then special operations.
But did we have to say any of that?
No.
because did one single person question his expertise?

(46:47):
No.
And it was like, it was crazy.
It was like he just threw a man blanket over it.
but it's like, but when you know that and then you know your experience is so muchdifferent and then people won't know actively that they're treating you differently.
They just see you and go, I just have questions.
What do mean?
They don't know they have questions because they don't believe me.

(47:07):
They don't know, or maybe I don't care if they know, right?
I know because I know when I push back your answer every time there's no, and some peopletry to come in and help the white autistics.
who are using their autism to ask a question, but I already know why they're asking.
They're asking, it's not a real question.
It's to correct me, to know your place, to say, I'm special, I'm not like these people.

(47:29):
You need to address me differently.
So when people kind of come help, go, mm, yeah, but she could have said, it doesn't matterthat she's also.
I think the helper commenters are so funny too, because they don't understand that likenumber one, this is our job.
We've probably heard this before.
But number two, like, you know what?

(47:50):
Because I'm not a perfect guru, right?
Like because I'm a human being, I sometimes not that rarely misinterpret somebody'scomment and then I make a spicy video.
And you know what is good enough every single time?
That person themselves telling me what they meant.
I just never need a random stranger to come along and explain it to me.

(48:11):
Like that's never been, and you know what happens?
Nine out of 10 times, I did get it right.
And they did mean it the way that I thought.
And that person coming along explaining is just like showing their ass on television.
But.
To me, that's how I just think the fact that you are here doing it and that you arecomfortable to do it tells me enough.

(48:33):
This is what community gives you is the context.
I am a black woman labeled white woman whisper on the internet with all these comments,all these followers, all this stuff.
And you think you're going to tell me, hold on.
And like, that's where you want to spend your energy.
And if I push back and go, I didn't, I wasn't asking you that's on you to then go fairenough.

(48:54):
Note taken.
gave them the phrases, right?
Note taken and fair enough are good enough for you, right?
If you want to keep learning from me, you're not going to push back.
I could block you and you may never hear from me again.
And if you don't think I'm valuable enough to take a beat and a seat and be quiet, thenguess what?
We're not interacting anymore.
You know, but there's this assumption that I would want to teach any single white personwho has any interest in possibly being not racist.

(49:19):
Like, out of here.
like, you get this one?
For me, it's like when they show up and they, people actually spend their energy to leavea comment telling me that the knitting is distracting.
And I just like, and it's like what you, like.
Why would you tell me that?

(49:40):
What?
That's not my business.
the way, neurodivergence were some of the worst at this.
They'll let you be like, well my ADHD is just, and I'm like, well, you should be ashamedas someone with ADHD of trying to shame someone else for their STEM, like what you're
doing right now, you know?
it's why you're bringing up your diagnosis.
And that to me tells me all I need to know because you haven't considered me for onesecond.

(50:04):
that's your consumer privilege showing.
I'm going to, and now, and I have community that knows enough about me that I'm not goingto tell you, I'm not going to explain myself to you.
I'm just going to post this or maybe go boo put tomatoes and someone else will come in andlet you know.
And that's what I'm trying to work on is not responding as much and letting white women doit.
this is even one of the things that I feel like my audience that wants to learn from meunderstands, right?

(50:27):
Like you give me like, eventually, eventually I listened and I try to not use metalneedles because I agree, it can be kind of whatever, but also I have snapped at a lot of
people because I put subtitles on every single video, so don't come complain to me about,right?
And it's like, if you are giving critical complaint,

(50:47):
to an expert, to a public person, to a creator, and you don't have a relationship withthem already, then you are playing knitting call lady roulette about how I'm going to
respond to you.
you can be respectful.
You can be respectful in any kind of question.

(51:07):
And also, if your question is disrespectful, right?
So I talked about helicopters in Hurricane Katrina.
And as someone who was a former intelligence officer for those helicopters, those sameexact helicopters later on, okay?

(51:28):
So I said something about it and this person posted, said, please don't get mad.
I really love your content, but how come Google says you're lying?
And I just, promised myself I was gonna do this the next time someone made this comment.
And so I did.
I got back on and I was like, look, I get that you say you love my content, my content'sawesome.

(51:52):
What answer, what answer do you expect me to give you here?
And people are like, so you don't want people fact checking?
Like, that is not what we are talking about here, right?
Like.
We are listening to me in the first place because I have interesting placement and accessand I know things.

(52:14):
And I said, was like, like, answer is that I have more military experience than Google.
And I was an intelligence officer for those helicopter pilots.
that, that's the answer you're getting.
What, but like, but do you even understand, do you even understand the levels of insulthere?

(52:35):
And it doesn't really matter.
that you're supposedly saying it, right?
It's just like, not to be a racist, but, right?
Like.
police, know?
Polite policing is policing.
Passive aggressive is still aggressive.
Like this whole, well, I put please in front of it.
You demand it and put please in front of it?
Don't tell me what to do.

(52:56):
Please don't use, please don't refer to white women.
Please refer to American, shut up.
Don't tell me what to do.
is also another example of like, this is nine-year-old logic.
I have a nine-year-old that does this.
I have a nine-year-old that thinks she can say, well, not to be offensive, but mommy, youlook really weird today, right?

(53:18):
Like nine years old is the age where you can believe that saying, don't mean to beoffensive, it then invalidates what you say afterwards.
It's like, it doesn't.
It's so, please don't attack me emoji with the little tears.
I'm just so, I'm just, shut up.

(53:38):
You know what?
I'm, and I'm, and people know enough and it's nice to see, I just want YWB to know it isnice to see them come into the comments and go, well, we saw what you said.
We know why you said that.
Don't think that it's a don't attack me please.
And then what all I says, I hate this comment.
And it's like, now you hate me because you're discriminating and it's ridiculous.

(54:01):
And then when people come in and say, this is weird, they'll go, you didn't readeverything.
You don't know what's going on.
She said she, she hates and she attacked me.
And it's nice to have actual people defend me.
because everyone's going to defend the hypothetical internet stranger.
didn't understand.
Why would you, if so, if the, if the white feminist was spit in facts, why would you,start a problem?

(54:26):
Why would you have a problem?
Why would you silence her?
What?
Why would I?
Who said that?
I just said, this may ruin it.
Cause if she's talking to me about the harms of patriarchy, then she must think, I don'tknow.
And when I hit her with, it's just going to take her off.
But why would I not share that?

(54:46):
I don't know.
It becomes so weird for me when I post stuff like this online, because it is so helpfulfor some women.
And I get it.
Cause I am a neurodivergent person.
would, I need this to make sense of stuff.
But then it's like, well, you this would trigger.
I feel this need to justify to myself why I'm making white women uncomfortable.
But what else?
Y'all are sitting here, Kevin Frankie is like, know.

(55:09):
She just, I let her do what she had to do and I'm not as bad as she was.
She exploited the kids.
She knew what she was doing.
And I'm not supposed to say something?
I mean, if it was real life, really probably, well, maybe I would say something.
I even think there's this interesting dynamic that I've been thinking about since thebeginning, which is like, okay, so even if you were gonna sit there and say, all right,

(55:37):
here's a beef I have with Knitting Cult Lady, creators are not good or bad people.
And I tell you the amount of women that have said to me, I couldn't put myself out therebecause I would say something wrong.
I mean, I use this as an example all the time.
I'm always bringing in other people's work and telling you where I got this idea from.

(56:00):
And like, when you are just jumping straight to defending a creator, yeah, a little tooparasocial with them.
Like whoever this person was out there, like defending me against hypothetical harms, likeyou should be questioning why you are immediately assuming

(56:21):
that knitting call it lady couldn't have done something wrong, right?
Like that's part of it.
or that I would be coming from.
And that means you have to do, like, you'd have to make a decision now about choosing one.
And that's why I say it would not work in my favor.
I would have no, it just, as much as people think, you know, if I were black women, then Icould say this and black people can say anything.

(56:43):
Black people can blah, blah.
And that's cause you know, we can say it and be right, but in the end, it doesn't go welljust cause something is true.
doesn't mean the audience, everything I say is true and people get mad at me.
stronger people of hurting you doesn't often go well for the weaker person.
And the people who really still like me, I still like you, now they have conflict and Icaused it.

(57:07):
Right?
It just, there's no world in which that actually would help me.
The attention, you know, maybe it would get a lot of views.
It would definitely get a lot of views.
It would monitor it.
And I get that, and I think that as professionals, we would handle it a different way.
But I also just wanna put it in the conversation that, cause I do, I use this as anexample all the time.

(57:32):
And I'm like, I don't care if my content has helped you.
Two years from now, I'm on the news for being a racist?
You should not be standing up.
It's like when I talk about Teal Swan.
And they will not engage with the content of what I'm actually saying.
She's one of these woo woo white ladies.

(57:53):
They will not engage with the content of what I'm actually saying.
They will only stick in their outrage and usually bring up how I have less followers thanher and whatever, right?
They will only stick in their outrage that I dared to criticize her, right?
And it's like, that's not, that's not.
Cultish, one of the best cult books out there.

(58:14):
Amanda Montell has written three phenomenal books.
She also chose a position on brainwashing that I and other experts disagree with.
And when I talk about her book, I usually say, there's this one little thing, you know,that I would have done differently.
Still a phenomenal book, still deserves its place in the canon.

(58:35):
I still think she's wonderful and I would love to meet her anytime.
Yeah, she's one I would maybe, right?
Right?
I mean, here's, you have to be able to hold that nuance.
And I know on TikTok that they can't.
So even if, you know, that's why I would never, you're not going to see me bring a beefwith a white woman to TikTok.

(58:55):
just doesn't, it won't get, won't people get people on my Patreon.
I'll tell you that much.
But that's like, I don't think people zoom out enough to realize like, you know, but also,yeah, I wouldn't.
for so many reasons, bring up beef with you to take it on.
But I did kind of know that once I start talking about you, people are going to thinkthis.
And I hate that.

(59:15):
And someone had made a comment that was perfect.
And I think we talked about this last week with Hannah Berner saying to Meg Thee Stallion,your music makes me, you know, when I want to fight, I put your music on.
And someone said, that's what this comment feels like.
Like they're reading your, you know, passion for what you do as some kind of like, youdon't want to fight.
People do see myself and go, I wanna go yell at someone.

(59:37):
And I wanna, and I think that's not my vibe.
it might be a very whiteness thing to see a general critique and think that it's directedat you.
So when I first started therapy and my therapist was a fellow Children of God therapist,very, very, very professional, and I remember I had to unfollow her on all social media

(01:00:07):
and leave groups that she was a part of because
anytime she wrote something, I would just go, is this about me?
And trust that was something we had to then explore in the therapy, right?
But I think that there is this like...
like another thing for you to look for.

(01:00:29):
If you're walking on eggshells already, right, and you think everything is a rule, Iremember that time in my life where it was like, I was just taking things in like, this is
another thing, like, I gotta be mindful of and have under the belt and like keep controlover.
also just this like, so I saw it in the army too, where people, you know when people arespeaking another language around white people and then white people just cannot stand it

(01:00:55):
because they think they're talking about them, like has to be.
And I would, this was one personal crusade that I picked while I was in the militarybecause people would try to be like, you're not allowed to speak Spanish and you don't
farm in it.
Actually, actually, I
put that together.
here and it says English is the official language of military business.

(01:01:20):
absolutely does not say your soldiers can't be speaking in Spanish around you.
just now like put that last little piece together of they think everyone's talking aboutthem.
And that's the way to control it.
Now that doesn't actually control what they think of you, but like all that matters iswhat you see and what you hear.

(01:01:40):
so like, be a better person.
it is a regular talking point amongst neurotypical white women about how the Korean or theVietnamese ladies or whatever in the nail salon are talking about you.
And I just...
putting that but then the general.

(01:02:00):
very like, so I don't know if I told you, like I got a white, I got a, oh boy, I got a Tedtalk and some white man in my life said to me, if you mention me, I'm gonna sue you.
And like my answer to him was just like, I don't know, like yeah, I don't know what makesyou think that you rate in the top 12 minutes of my life.

(01:02:25):
Like.
That and that's whiteness and like being, you're so scared.
What are you scared of?
And that's like brings it down to the us and them thing.
Who is the them coming to attack you?
But that's how you get people to dehumanize other people in this way is that same line ofthinking that like, or like this narcissistic kind of centering yourself and other

(01:02:46):
people's lives.
They're lying about me.
She's made these videos attacking me.
She hates me.
I don't know you internet stranger.
Like that mental process is something black people I don't think really can participatein, ever have, because literally everything is about not you, like anti-you everything.
And so you learn to, you start earning that belief in yourself.

(01:03:10):
Whereas I think whiteness is more about keeping a belief in yourself.
Like someone that said, it's much harder to keep an A than to earn an A.
And that's been sitting with me a lot.
And like the policing people, white people do to keep their A, they're born with an A,right?
And black people are born earning their A.
And so at least it gives you something you're working towards and it's like you'refocusing on yourself and building.

(01:03:33):
When you're focused on keeping your A, you're focused on everybody else not catching up toyou and every point you lose is so intense because that's closer to losing it, right?
And you're not focused on just being and living.
You're just managing and policing everybody else.
And is there a learning curve?
How many people can get an A?
There's a scarcity of As.
and your everything is just so tight calm down no one's coming for your a

(01:03:58):
like it's this main character energy too, you know?
I, my God, I put this show on and I was just laughing and waiting to talk to you about itlast night and I don't remember what it's called, but it's made by Mindy Kaling.
And the main character is Kate Hudson.
And she's the president of a basketball team and she's in the dude job and they're alreadypaying to make it diverse.

(01:04:25):
And I was like, but what?
Did we need it?
Do we need another show about a white woman?
Yeah.
So that's what they'll do.
So they'll do like, I've noticed a lot of diversity via white woman, black man, anythingto not bring a black woman into the picture.
You could solve this easily with one person, but they're like, about white woman, blackman?

(01:04:46):
What if we white woman, black man, always white woman, Hispanic man, a little bit darkerHispanic man, you know, and they're like, Whoa, we really did it.
And they're like, maybe there's a black woman character like in the back giving heradvice.
And it's just like, I'm so aware of this, because of course I published a book and part ofthe case that I was making was, I can speak to everyone.

(01:05:12):
Because I'm a white woman, right?
Like it is not a niche thing.
And I just like, this is what we're taught, right?
And so like white women have been taught that if they are the main character,
Like that's a valid story for everyone.
But if somebody who's not white is the main character, like that's a story for blackwomen.

(01:05:38):
Right?
centering Black Voices this month.
Right.
And like, bullshit, we all watched Bridgerton.
Right?
Like.
make any sense that you would not identify with them, but those white men making thedecisions have dictated that's actually incorrect.
But it's also a part of the cultic system.
That's on purpose.
If you identify with too many black women, what starts to happen?

(01:06:00):
You know, once you start saying, they're just like me, whatever.
Like then you might identify with your womanhood a little bit more than your whiteness,but realizing right now, everything tells you white women are white first.
whether you're white, non-binary, white, lesbian, white, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
and they're gonna attack and to have these defenses and this armor so you're walkingaround all heavy with your metal armor and no one is hot and you smell, know, like just

(01:06:29):
take it off.
Everyone will be happier for it, but you're like, everyone's gonna get me.
Whoa.
Okay.
You know, there's, can be much simpler, but the powers that be said, you don't like this.
One of the things I say about writing uncultured was that it was the process of pullingoff all this armor that I had put on in my life.

(01:06:54):
And the sad part of it was realizing you didn't actually need most of that armor in thefirst place.
The people that were hurting me were hurting me when I had my armor down anyway.
this to me ties back to being a...
being a rapture kid, right, being a cult kid.

(01:07:14):
Like you're raised under us versus them, right?
Like you're raised under persecution psychology.
Like they're out to get you.
And so it's like, there is this approach to the, I always say, like I didn't absorb, Ithought I didn't absorb any of their shit, right?
Like the whole time I was a kid in the call, I was like, this is a game I'm not playing,this is dumb.

(01:07:37):
But like I really did absorb the like, the outside world is bad.
and like different people are bad.
you know, even, and that's what's been so crazy about this journey was like actuallyunderstanding that like my subconscious, right?
I grew up in Brazil.

(01:07:57):
I grew up in white communes where I was beaten and abused and starved.
And then I would be taken out in public to perform and black and brown people would treatme wonderfully and the white people wouldn't hurt me.
when I was out in front of them.
But then like somehow consciously, I still absorb that message, right?

(01:08:19):
That you stay with the people that are like you.
And it wasn't until I swear, right?
Like 2020, we're leaving Seattle on purpose because we don't wanna live in an all whiteplace.
And we drove during COVID in an RV backward across the Lewis and Clark trail, which is...

(01:08:40):
I would give you an incredibly white way to travel.
But we didn't see one black person from when we left Seattle, which they're rare, till wehit Chicago.
And I remember as soon as I started seeing black people again, I was like, my bloodpressure's going down.
know, like I know they're not MAGA.
I know they're like not in, you know, we joke about it.

(01:09:03):
We joke about it now.
I hear living in Maryland, sorry.
No, go ahead, go ahead.
just like my husband and I joke about it, because there's like one tapas bar that wereally love, but often it's only filled with white people.
And then there's like our neighborhood bar that often sometimes has no white people in it.
And we're like, you know, you feel safer in this one.

(01:09:25):
when I look around and I just see white people, historically, I know we're not the goodguys, but the...
interesting thing to me about deconstructing, right, and paying attention to my body andmy subconscious was like, my subconscious always knew that too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because there's the reinforcement of that.

(01:09:45):
Like you're actually, you're experiencing negativity around white people and less, youknow, so no matter what people tell you in your head, your body still is receiving the
actual true signals.
So that's also the gaslighting that takes place.
But I think the armor thing is so interesting.
Also, if you think about taking it off when you get home and you know, with white people,the you're putting on the armor for

(01:10:10):
a pretend anxiety like gonna happen any moment type of thing, right?
But black people are putting on the armor because they have to, because white people areout there in their armor and they don't see us.
So they're walking around, you know, making arms and they're nervous and they can't reallysee well because they're wearing armor.
So like we have to now build our own.
But when we get home, we take it off.
We're fine.
We're we know the truth.

(01:10:32):
We are putting on armor because white people are armored and so they're with their tanksand their stuff.
So we put it on when we go out.
We come home, we take it off, we get to be ourselves.
There is an honesty in that.
that, like understanding that you are not your armor, right?
So like you have always had to code switch, but I felt like you could always come home andtake off the armor.

(01:11:00):
Whereas I just merged with my armor, right?
Like when I was perfect soldier, I didn't let myself be these other things.
Yeah, that's who you are.
That armor is your presentation to the world.
that, it's not who's underneath because no one can see who's underneath and that wholeperception is reality business.

(01:11:24):
I remember hearing that and like in a way it was like, oh, well you're black cause you'reperceived as black.
Okay, got it.
That makes sense.
Sure.
Perception is reality.
But like my actual reality is reality.
What do you mean that person's perception of me is my truth?
Well, you're taking it too far.
Like, for one second, you know, they may think I'm one thing and then I open my mouth andI'm something else.

(01:11:45):
They can adjust that perception of me.
First impressions are all that.
Shut up.
Halo effect.
hated, yeah, that's one my most hated thought-stopping cliches.
Like, no, perceptions are perceptions.
Perceptions, yeah, perceptions are exactly the opposite of reality if there's no realthing making that.

(01:12:05):
My goodness.
My perception of their perception is my reality.
So I don't know.
I don't know guys.
okay, so I have to tell you this story.
So we're deployed, right?
And being deployed is kind of like prison and also you're not allowed to have sex.
Okay, so because of that, the second you get deployed with a vagina, like everybody iswatching you all of the time, waiting for you to fuck up, waiting to see who you're gonna

(01:12:32):
have an affair with, right?
All of this stuff.
It was crazy to be like the.
Consummate professional and then just be like in two weeks I'm not gonna be able to eatlunch with you all anymore like my male colleagues because of what everyone's gonna say,
right?
So Sure enough.
You can't just ban people from falling in love for a year, right?
so I meet my now husband and we start hanging out publicly like going for runs eatinglunch and So one day our boss sees us right and he

(01:13:07):
And my husband's divorced, right?
Like didn't tell me how recently his divorce had been, but told me he was divorced and Idid not believe him.
No, I didn't.
I went and checked his paperwork because army men.
Okay, so I knew for a fact that he was divorced.
What I didn't realize was that many people thought he was still married.

(01:13:27):
And so my boss comes and he calls us both.
He walks into the office to ask me a work question and hears this.
handsome helicopter pilot sitting on my desk having coffee with me.
And so he calls us both out and he gives us this 10 minute speech about perception isreality.
And I know Tom's a consummate professional and I know Danielle is a consummateprofessional, but you have to understand perception is reality.

(01:13:53):
And so the whole time, so the whole time I'm thinking he's literally telling us that wecan't just be in a relationship and it is legal.
We have studied the stuff.
cleared it, right, as long as we don't break the physical rules.
And so I like wait for him to dismiss us.
And then I just said to him, I was like, sir, I don't, I just don't understand the problemwith two single officers hanging out.

(01:14:21):
And he just cocks his head and he goes, single?
Mr.
Young is single?
Yes, he is, sir.
And he just goes,
okay.
I'm so relieved.
And he's like, no, you're fine, right?
And then I guess he walks off, he checks it and he comes back and he apologizes later.

(01:14:44):
And to this day, my husband and I talk about, it's like, you didn't trust us.
No, you didn't.
Nothing that you said was true, right?
Like it wasn't reality.
It was in your head.
like,
my gosh.
And like literally proving his- my god.
was just such a moment of just being like, this is like...

(01:15:10):
nothing.
What are you doing?
You just worked yourself up.
And also, the professional thing drives me crazy.
And I don't know what a consummate professional is.
What's a consummate?
Like, they just make up words and they're just like, this is why you're not a human, okay?
You don't show us your humanity.
that was funniest to me, and again, like the dehumanization, right?

(01:15:32):
It's like, she's a girl, she's gonna get in trouble, she's gonna get in trouble.
And like I always just wanted to pull them aside and be like, sir, my literal job, myliteral job is to study the map, to find the places where people can hide and to point
that out for you.
Do you think if I'm gonna subterfuge, you're gonna catch me?
Like, you know, like, you've forgotten who I am because you're so obsessed with thecontrol right now.

(01:16:05):
Because perception is real.
they literally are like, whatever I'm seeing is what is.
And if I didn't see it, my God, because that's literally what happens.
We're just like, as a white woman, I'm a, what?
You know, I don't see it this way.
I think no.
It's because they believe in themselves too much.
everything I had proved to this man about my character for two and a half years was outthe window because of something he was sure was true, right?

(01:16:33):
And it was just like...
that's also kind of weird.
mean, not that I think that, you know what I mean?
Like, it just says it's a cult.
they only legislate the morality when they want to, but yes.
It will not surprise you to find out that women are punished for adultery far more thanmen in the military.

(01:16:58):
And of course, my God, and I said this once in a video, and then I said, of course, blackwomen have it weaponized against them the most.
Are you saying that black women commit adultery?
sit down, sit down.
When they get mad for black people, it's a terrible sign.

(01:17:19):
Like you don't think we can get mad for ourselves?
If there isn't a black woman complaining about it, shut up, shut up.
Cause guess what?
We know how to speak for ourselves.
That's one thing even y'all say all the time.
And then all of a sudden it's like, well, hold on.
Black people should be mad about this.
So instead of them, I'm going to do it.
How dare you?
White person to white person.

(01:17:39):
If, if a white person calls you a white savior, weird.
Unless
You know what I mean.
Like, if they're saying it in a derogatory.
Yeah.
this, yeah.
Tanyawe, you just think you're so much better than everybody and you're justwhite-savoring in and like, I'm not, I'm, like just keep saying this to people, like I'm

(01:18:02):
not trying to be anything except on the right side of history, okay?
Like.
If you feel like you're trying to help black people, aside from by owning your own shit,then you're in white savior territory.
If you think I'm doing this as an act of generosity, benevolence and things like that,that's like white saviorism.

(01:18:24):
You're just having your experiences out loud.
And then that's it.
yeah, and this is where, you know, I always described this podcast as White WomanWhisperer and I sit around and crochet and deconstruct white supremacy like the cult that
it is.
And white people always phrase this question to me in such a white way, which is like,well, you're a white person, so why would you wanna take down white supremacy?

(01:18:47):
Right, again, like, and it's like, and people always go, justice, this, that, you know,like, but.
It's not that, it's that it's a lie.
The promise of the cult is always a lie.
I personally am not better off under white supremacy either.

(01:19:07):
I'm doing it for me.
It's excellent that I'm gonna hurt fewer black people for the rest of my life.
I love that, but I'm not doing it.
That's...
like altruism.
that's the white set, right?
Exactly, right?
Like I'm working on it because I wanna work on it.

(01:19:29):
And by the way, for my white women listeners, this is also how you frame the discussionwith other white women that you're trying to bring into it.
Like I never am like, you know how white women, you know how you, I'm always like, Ilearned this in my life, in my practice.
Let me share it with you.

(01:19:50):
It can be simple, not always easy, but it can be simple.
And that's it.
you're, they see this as some, like an how to, or a pointing fingers or something.
And it's, it's, they think it's a game or like a race, no pun intended that someone has towin.
And I, I've saw some teachers say this to black kids and they were like, wait, do youthink that white people are better than black people?

(01:20:15):
And he goes,
Well, yeah, sure.
Shouldn't you think that your race is the best of all the races?
Don't you?
And it was like these kids, poor kids, because they were like losing respect as themilliseconds passed for this man.
And he's trying to explain why, well, you know, they see it as something to win, aconquering, a position, a place in the hierarchy, whereas everybody else out here is just

(01:20:42):
saying, huh?
and I'm also gonna go back to the like nine-year-old, 10-year-old logic, right?
Like if a 10-year-old boy is walking around saying boys are better than girls, like wekind of laugh.
But like when you're 20 or 30 saying that, like we know you're a misogynist and itprobably started then and people shouldn't have laughed.
But you know, like, we're...

(01:21:04):
should be, should be happening along the way that teaches you, I don't get a lot ofpositive feedback when I do this.
And I like women's interactions.
I learn more from it, you know, like the natural thing, but it like the, and that's why,you know, I really do enjoy doing this podcast.
I realize I get to say a lot of the things that I realized like hearing is some

(01:21:27):
And there's a validation and I know you're not gonna go, well, I think what they're tryingto say is you can be that person for someone.
Like white women can do this.
It can be this simple.
And you can build community around you without saying much and just listening and going,oh, that's, you know, I also.

(01:21:47):
And I think this this really ties into American exceptionalism, which of course can't beseparated from the white supremacy.
But like there is this real concept, subconscious concept that many, if not most of ushave as Americans, that we're the best, like we're superior in anything.
Like, I think the only things I know of that America is top on is we're the wealthiestnation.

(01:22:13):
and we have the highest prison population.
and our president is most likely to destabilize the globe now.
But every time I'm critiquing America and then people will say to me, so what country'sbetter?
And it's like, look, I grew up in Brazil.
Brazilians fucking love Brazil.

(01:22:36):
They also don't have to believe that it's the best country in the world, you know?
Right, it's that next step where you're talking about other people.
Cause it's one thing to say America's great.
All right, say that at home, but to be like, no.
And if you don't think so, you can leave.
Whoa, colonizer, hold on.

(01:22:57):
Like that got weird.
Cause like, have you now put someone else's business?
It's the evangelizing.
It's like, that's why religion itself isn't the problem.
It's when you now can.
colonize another person's body, being, and like beliefs, now, and righteously, dehumanizethem.
And I always say that the thing about cults and why it works is because cults give you thepermission to feel superior and to put your mission above everyone else's.

(01:23:25):
And just simply understanding that like there are many valid ways to live a life.
Other people can be just as valid as you.
And, you know, just accepting that.
that.
Yeah.
You don't have to decide or pick and say where everyone sits and have an opinion that sitsalong a side.

(01:23:45):
Sides be the main.
Don't be a side.
What's that?
I love it.
That is a great place to wrap up.
This has been such a good conversation.
And don't worry, I was fine the whole time.
Please follow Rebecca on Patreon.
It is linked everywhere it can be linked.

(01:24:05):
She has just finished her tenets of white supremacy.
Super, super good stuff.
And we'll be talking about that soon.
I'm very, very sure.
Thank you so much for listening.
Please like and subscribe.
And my just tip for white women who are doing this work and are deconstructing is just getcurious.

(01:24:27):
Get curious about where that thing came from.
And that is a way to avoid the shame.
Love it.
So easy.
Nice.

All Episodes

Episode 31 | Defensiveness and White Identity

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 31 | Defensiveness and White Identity