Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hey everybody, welcome back to Hey White Woman, the podcast where White Woman Whispererand I, Knitting Cult Lady, are deconstructing white supremacy like the cult that it is.
Pull up a chair, grab some crochet or some knitting, because we're gonna have aninteresting conversation today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(00:25):
So as I make what I hope is maybe my final, like big departure from using Tik Tok at maybeat all, because honestly, I had the nerve to continue conversations as if I'm having them
here with you there.
No, that's not even true.
I wasn't that bold, but you know, we talked about the protest on the parade and I sharedmy thoughts.
(00:47):
I felt good about it.
You know, did it here.
Um,
And then I had this idea in my head that I was like, I'm gonna share this on my Patreon,nice and easy.
And that's how the Man vs.
Bear thing started.
Now that I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, oof.
Anyway, I said, know, imagine.
you find out these, the men, the good guys of America, all the good guys, nice guys areprotesting in three weeks, the patriarchy, just, you know, they're protesting all the bad
(01:19):
things, the government, they're protesting sexism, they're protesting, they're protesting,right?
And like, how would, this was just a hypothetical, how would you feel?
Like, yes, okay.
Um, who are you?
This is what I was saying.
Like who are you talking to though?
Like, is this it?
(01:39):
You know, you would hope beyond that, you know, is this the first thing?
Anyway, I have a Patreon video about it.
It's free.
You can find it, right?
It's just going into that.
But my mistake, I'm working on that.
But anyway, I posted just a little clip of it, which I like to do sometimes to TikTok justto, you know, put it out there as much as I can free preview.
(02:04):
I'm just sharing.
For the most part, it's fine.
know, people got it.
wow.
You know, I had a visceral reaction to this question because I would think, are theyperforming it?
Who's this for?
But there is a specific subset of responses.
I wouldn't even say our answers because I'm not, I would hope, you know, I wouldn't beanswering.
It's a clip of a Patreon video.
(02:25):
That's a hypothetical question, right?
But um some white women, I think, felt very uncomfortable at, you know, the critique,which is what
Not even a critique, right?
Because I'm just saying that I guess the implication is to question this, right?
And it's why when I first started questioning the marches, I started referring to them asMLMs.
(02:46):
there was, ah now there's once not being overtly negative, it's the most dangerous kindwhere people are just curious or are just genuinely asking em a question back to my
hypothetical thought provoking question.
Um, but this concept of ignoring, mean, sorry, including and excluding yourself from theconversation is so dangerous.
(03:13):
Right?
So white women would say, well, if they're doing this, I couldn't see it happening becausethey would be doing it not for the performance of women, because it's just men doing it.
It wouldn't be for women.
And I'm, I need women to remember for a second.
They're the ones answering the question.
So in this scenario, you are looking at it, having a response and being thrilled about it.
(03:40):
So do you think there's no performance?
If you're in this scenario, how are you also not being a part of it, right?
You are the women, you're the white women, but that whiteness does this thing where youinclude and ignore black women, but you include and exclude yourself.
And I have a really, I want...
(04:00):
Another example that I saw this, maybe it was this week when I was this white man iswalking on the sidewalk and he happens to have no shirt on.
can tell by the video and how he's recording.
goes, I was just walking by this girl and you know, she had the whole AirPods insunglasses on, had her phone out, you know, landscape mode.
(04:25):
Cause God forbid we make eye contact and um, you know,
She's got the whole thing.
Like he is just feeling like he's really got it, you know?
Hal, look at this silly lady.
Didn't even realize I was just a human trying to interact.
So, sir, he looks like he's like a 26 year old white guy with a mustache, no shirt on inthe middle of the day.
(04:50):
By the way, filming on his phone and walking.
with no irony and then when people push back and say whatever, like actually dude, notonly are you doing all these things, but you might've been doing that on purpose not to
interact with you.
God, you never thought about women's perspectives, right?
And he goes, well, actually that's not safe because you're not aware of your surroundingsif you're watching your phone like that.
(05:15):
Cause he's assuming she's watching something silly and sunglasses means, like thesunglasses.
element was also such a weird ad because that means he can't see her eyes, but she canstill see.
But it's like his perspective and he genuinely believed this or maybe it's some kind ofrage bait.
(05:36):
It didn't seem like it.
Maybe I'm just getting at, but like.
Yeah.
It wasn't, he didn't say, I was just joking.
He said, he made a follow-up video saying, no, and actually if that's true, like she wouldbe less of blah, blah, blah.
And like, do you not understand that the more you explain this, the more, you are not theperson who knows things here, but this air.
(06:00):
So when I said, know, if men did this thing,
I'm asking you to like see yourself as part of whatever.
And I know a lot of white women are going like, I would be so thrilled or they did thiswithout women's help.
That would be amazing.
So you would want them to have an anti-sexism march without any input from women.
(06:25):
And who's watching their children when they do this?
Do they get a pat on the back for this?
For leaving all their wives and
sisters and mothers at home while they went and had beers with those guys and like in thename of whatever.
So then it was like, well, what's wrong?
You know, people were questioning me about, you know, 3.5 % of people and that's whatwe're trying to do is start this movement and like, okay, when you say that, how many
(06:51):
percent of people are black people?
13.
And that wasn't enough for people to give us who just said 3.5 % of votes.
Like you guys don't realize 3.5, we were three fifths a person.
Oh God, I just put that, I hate that.
Anyway, I hate that.
And I also hate fifth third bank, by the way, just because every time I see that five overthree, I think three over five, and then I think three fifths a person.
(07:15):
And that's what it's like to be a black aware person in America, just driving aroundobsessed with a weird bank that has no, they didn't do it for any of that.
They were just like.
put these numbers together.
Anyway, yeah, sorry.
something really powerful that you said in a past episode for, you know, white women islike, black people don't need to read the books about racism, right?
(07:43):
Like, they know it.
You know, I have this in my work with like, I don't have to explain cults to cultsurvivors.
They get it when they hear the language I've put it into, they immediately get it.
I'm explaining it for other people.
And we've talked about on this show, first of all, like E.
(08:05):
Joe Maluo, author of So You Wanna Talk About Race, who says, when black people tell youit's about race, believe them.
And I think that's like, this is what I want my white women audience to do and to takefrom this is like, black people get it when it's racist, so listen to them.
(08:27):
when they're pointing out things to you.
Like, it's okay, I guess, that we didn't think about that stuff, but like, once it'spointed out to you, accept that and then think about it next time.
It's literally just what do you do with the information when it's told to you?
(08:48):
nothing is a choice, we don't love that one, but actively pushing back on it is such a redflag.
And my issue with it was also that this, you know, one of the white women who was very uhvocal about how thrilled she would be to see this.
You know, like all caps in my comments saying they'd be thrilled to see men do thisbecause that would mean da da da.
(09:14):
And it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean the work is over, but it does mean, okay, great.
Doing all this talking to me, talking to me.
And there was also a um tour that a campaign that was labeled as a tour called the UNFAmerica tour, but they called it the full word.
(09:34):
trying to make it so Haley doesn't have to censor it out.
But like also terrible name, another terrible named thing in the name of rights, but itwas a bad process from the beginning, but it was led by a white woman.
And I tried to tell people like, if the white woman you are following into some action,into some thing, isn't listening actively to black women, referencing black women talking
(10:01):
about before they were listening to black women, then
That is a person who is leading you into an MLM.
A new thing to protect, to promote, protect and serve.
Like you're just, that's all you're gonna do in the end.
And you're not gonna be able, if you can't ask questions, you can't critique it.
If it's a social gathering, then have a social gathering.
(10:24):
But if you're doing it in the name of justice or fascism.
And then having a barbecue, because that's what I found out in my comments.
They were like, um, this one was supposed to be like a May day something, which I don'tknow.
This isn't my business.
Black people stepped out of this one, not cause they think white people got it, butbecause they were like, you know what?
(10:45):
We're done with y'all.
Like if you want to keep doing, okay, I don't, we tried it.
I don't know.
But when we're watching you, we're not thinking they're doing such a great job.
I mean, we're glad.
I don't know.
Let me not speak for others, but if it were great, we'd be there.
Yeah.
Like if people were listening, you know, what were they saying at these things?
(11:06):
It's building a movement, they're building communities.
Those are groups, those are not communities you're building from these things.
It's like little, I'm assuming like little subgroups of the parade and you guys get intouch.
I remember the hats, the pink hats, and I think my mom was trying to lead like a thingfrom Planned Parenthood and you'd have these little subgroups.
(11:29):
I, but like.
What happens after that?
That's the next acronym.
What?
What happens after that?
I love that.
It's so simple.
think people get stuck on the what and don't get to the why.
I keep saying this about cults, right?
Like people are like, ah, trafficking children, right?
Sexual abuse and they don't get to why and it's always to get your labor, right?
(11:52):
Like get your labor.
they ask rhetorical questions instead of asking the actual questions.
And that's what drives me kind of nuts about, I said, white people gotta stop askingrhetorical questions.
How could that happen?
What do you, literally that's why.
And there's so much identification in whiteness.
There's so much pointing and identifying and categorizing and labeling.
(12:13):
Not a lot of recovery, rebuilding, reconstruction, because they're just like, what domean?
We got to talk more about whose fault it is.
Like that, that has never been helpful.
You guys are always looking for who's to blame now.
What are the new rules?
Rules?
Those are used to exploit.
Like, because those are like, how to, what will you get in trouble for?
(12:36):
And why are you starting with that?
Like, know, there's, there's so much work that is going into these marches and in the nameof righteousness that I, concerns me because that's how cults form.
And those are little, little mad liberal marches now.
(12:59):
Like it's, one thing to just go like, why not?
You know, I think a lot of people get into stuff like that.
White people, white, why not?
Let me just, what could go wrong?
Rhetorical question, gonna get you in trouble.
know, yelling at me, could go, what's the harm in just following this white lady?
(13:20):
She really seems to want to do well.
Yeah, well, you don't realize that she set up this and this and this with this tour.
Apparently this white woman has like a lot of connections, but she respond well to blackwomen asking questions like that.
When there's a lot of money involved and it's vague, yeah, we got questions, you know.
It's simple, not always easy and not sexy, but the answers are usually simple.
(13:43):
like, but someone on my Patreon, I do want to say, said, okay, but not okay, but shedidn't say that.
goodness.
She said, you know, what, what do you think about us going to these next MLM and thenbringing you and Portia and these other, you know, black women's voices into those spaces?
Meaning like, Hey, have you, are you on Patreon?
(14:05):
Make a friend, have your friend join these communities that you're learning and growingin.
And then you can actually have things to talk about that aren't just like how bad the badthings are.
Because then you don't have that community and that group unless there's actively harmbeing thrown at you or you're being threatened with harm.
(14:28):
Like the girl group only stays together if they're being like mean to someone.
if they all hate the same person at the same time.
And that's what holds the group together.
that's where it gives cult, right?
It's like you're always being persecuted, right?
There's like bad stuff now.
We can all see it and we can all like focus on that.
Meanwhile, you're not watching, yeah.
(14:51):
At least we're not the black people or they'll come into my comment section and defend thewhite people who were rude to me in my comment section when in real life, like you don't
want to talk to those people at all, but now you're going to defend them in the name ofseeing me be punished or publicly held accountable.
You know, cause that's what.
(15:13):
And that's their joy, those are your social gatherings, that public cumulon- it's just-
You should be focused less on the anti-identity, right?
Like what we aren't, who we hate, what we don't like, what we don't do, who we don't actlike.
Instead it's like, so what do you do?
How do you have fun, not make fun of other people?
(15:33):
Like what's your own thing?
Like we make money.
Like that's cool.
you know, when you're talking about like, if there aren't black women in these spaces, Ifeel like it's giving like canary in the coal mine of like, if you look around, and there
(15:56):
aren't black women here, like, it's not safe.
It's not good.
What are you doing?
So this is when, like, so in coal mines, like you can have, I think it's like,
something goes wrong with the hydrogen, the oxygen.
There's some sort of scientific thing where the air turns poisonous.
(16:19):
And so what they used to have was they would literally carry a bird in a cage, like outfront.
that's why was like, this analogy is probably like ugly and heavy, but then it's like, sothe bird dies, so then you know that it's dangerous there.
And like,
(16:39):
That's what canary in the columbine means?
Is when the canary dies?
it's, it's so it's common to language to be like when people are warning you or like thefirst signs of danger, right?
So when we say like, but it's the death of the canary, right, right.
(16:59):
my god.
That's actually like, cause if for some reason I always thought there was like a singingcomponent.
Canary in the gold mine.
I mean, that's what we know about canaries is they sing, right?
And I think that's part of it.
It's like you'll be hearing the canary and then you don't hear it anymore.
Now it's dangerous.
That is so accurate to this.
(17:22):
I'm trying to be like, it's so violent and ugly, but I feel like that's the reality.
yeah, yeah.
And we could all be outside.
Like none of us need to be in that coal mine by the way.
None of us.
That's what the canary is singing this whole time.
Like actually you should be getting out the whole time.
(17:43):
um You waited until we got the canary ties.
And then you're like, all right, now we'll get out.
And this is, mean, well, I keep saying to my audience, right?
They're like, when are we gonna do something?
What's gonna happen?
And I'm like, I mean, at some point, there will be a tipping point and white America willriot and will respond.
(18:09):
um And unfortunately, history indicates that that happens when there are a lot of bodies.
There already has been so many, right?
Like COVID, that happened, was avoidable.
I feel like we just keep, not we, but like the sense of urgency and there's so littlefocus on what has happened and we're just lots of threatening about what could happen and
(18:40):
like.
to, it always brings back to like maybe 400 years ago wasn't bad enough.
We have to keep piling on more and more.
We had slavery.
That should be something we sit with and question and work.
Like that's how we get this.
That's how, that's how genocide, that's how all types of it, interpersonal colonialism islike a really interesting phrase that I've seen used for narcissism.
(19:06):
I I put that in the chapter for you.
that we have to also like regain a sense of where we stand, what we're doing, what'shappening right now in order to be able to process like what happens after anything else,
all the hypothetical harm we worry about as if what has happened, what is happening, thecurrent state of open homes and people dying on the street at the same time.
(19:33):
But there's a...
There's a betrayal trauma.
think people have to, you know, when I say the griever goals, we have to process and giveroom for, um, like what we were taught wasn't the truth.
That's tough.
Yeah, that's like deconstructing your worldview, like you have to do after a cult.
(19:56):
And I can't imagine doing that without a sense of like self security and sense of self.
like as a black woman, at least I had done some of that.
uh It's unavoidable.
I know I'm a human.
I know the system doesn't think I am.
There's not like, I'm almost going to be there, but
You know, we have each other, but white people clearly need some sense of community.
(20:23):
just, the throwing, the canceling, the like...
It's the, and you know, I've been saying, like we've given up community for whiteness,right?
And we didn't like, this generation, right?
We did not agree to it, but we are carriers of that, right?
And we are, you know, not to mention just sitting at the top of a pyramid called whitenessthat tells us that we're special.
(20:48):
And like,
doing anti-racism work and deconstructing whiteness, like you're not gonna feel special.
You're gonna feel very unspecial and you're gonna feel the guilt of generations, right,that has led to this.
like it's not fun, right?
And in deconstruction, right, I talk about the decade of deconstruction, right?
(21:09):
And when you're about four to five years in, like your floodgates are open, right?
That crack in the brainwashing has taken down the whole dam.
everything's coming at you and you feel like it's too much, you know?
And I'm at kind of that point now.
uh I know I'll obviously make it through, right?
But where people are like, is everything about white supremacy?
(21:32):
And I'm like, yes, yes, actually, look around, of course, that's what our country wasbuilt on, right?
Like, of course it is.
Yeah, it's every it's in everything.
But it's also the unspoken it's it's maddening.
It's made that way.
It's, but once you see it, it's like, well, you want other people to see it.
(21:54):
Cause you're just like, cause you can't really unring the bell, which I like.
Um, but it is tough to be the one who does it to be the messenger.
Um, and, and the, the messenger of you are not special to white women coming from me, Ithink is the, is why maybe there's more resistance.
(22:17):
Especially when on TikTok, because there's like people are so emotionally like notregulated there.
We're dysregulated.
Thank you for proving.
Okay.
that we, they don't give it time to take a beat and see and go, okay, do I need to saythis?
Because the person going back and forth with me.
(22:37):
So here's the other element of what happened when I posted that.
Right.
So it's like.
I'd be thrilled and this would mean this.
It wouldn't mean this, but it would mean they are because they did it without women.
And to me, I'm just seeing like, my goodness, ding, ding, all this stuff.
But this woman is like a political person online, has a platform, talks about this withother white women, talks to men, or maybe not to men, more about them uh and the empathy
(23:05):
they have and crushing the patriarchy and things, very white feminism-y.
And that...
concerns me.
So like if it was just an internet stranger that I didn't know, like we are mutuals, whichis only so much on TikTok.
Like for me, I used to go through and just follow back whoever like in a list becausethat's not my pressing follow is not currency.
(23:26):
It's not anyway, but this person
is kind of, you know, narrating to me, you posted this and I'm just saying, and do youthink you're negative about protests?
And I said, why do you, like, why did I post this?
I'm trying to put questions that aren't necessarily rhetorical, but like, not for me,like, hey, maybe think about this.
(23:49):
I'm not going to do that.
You're being like, do you hate protests?
you use this?
And like, only seeing me in this binary way.
Hey, that video is free on Patreon.
There's a whole free tier.
Can you watch the video?
it did not go well, right?
And so I ended up making a video saying this.
It wasn't positive, right?
(24:10):
Not necessarily negative, but this is a problem for me.
the way we're discussing and they responded, girl, we're mutuals.
Period.
And then more words after that, they started with girl as in like, and then told me how,you know, I'm not being disrespectful to you.
I was just asking a question, you know, whatever.
(24:30):
called that narrating Nancy syndrome.
When you tell me what's happening, you posted, I'm responding, you asked the question, I'mdoing this, you doing that, you said this, I said this, I'm here, I can read, it's all
right here.
uh You know, or I didn't say this, I did say this, correctional officer Kathy, we all needthat either.
(24:53):
Correcting me, didn't need it.
does calling you girl in this situation have the same connotation as boy when white peoplesay boy?
Mm-hmm.
So, initially I wasn't going to post a response to that.
em But, and I held on.
And so for me, I take a beat and a seat, right?
Because I think this is complicated for me because I am not, I don't like this type of, itmade me very uncomfortable.
(25:20):
The whole thing, wanting to see her back.
It's dangerous for me.
This is someone who is connected with me online.
I want her to continue to do the work, but I've had, I've seen things where veryconclusive, right?
Just very.
This is what needs to be done.
You know, the 3.5 % of people, this is what, you know, if you need more information onthis and you should explaining things to me, right?
(25:43):
Defending process without even watching my free video.
So it's like, and then asking, it was like, girl, whatever, what do want us to do type ofthing?
I had a similar rhetoric when I was concerned about the Kamala relief thing.
We're tired.
What do you want?
We did this.
We made them change it.
And that was, you know, enough.
(26:04):
And this is similar.
uh Instead of monthly marches, subscribe to my Patreon.
But they don't want to hear that.
That's not the answer.
But on my Patreon, people found out, I'd never even said don't go to the march.
I said, what's going on there?
What are you talking about?
What happens after it?
You know, uh don't compare it to Black Lives Matter because at least that phrase stilldoes something.
(26:27):
It's, and I would like people to consider that it is Black Lives Matter centering thelives that matter and why centering the harm that has been caused and why, right?
Versus uh cops keep killing.
We could have that, that's, that's a phrase that actually alliteration in many ways, copskeep killing.
It's about killing.
But at the end of that, what would happen?
(26:49):
It would be true.
would be very, my gosh, you know, whatever.
But what are we focused on?
We're not focused on them.
We're focused on saving the people we love, reducing the harm, focusing on the harm thathas been caused.
That stirs up things.
We're focusing, you know, on ourselves because we're always included and ignored.
So we have to save Black lives.
And then people go, no, all lives include us again.
(27:12):
Because we, you feel excluded, God forbid, in a conversation.
You know, that it caused that much discomfort.
That is worth something.
Make a phrase that that's what I do.
I just try to make up words that make people think something different.
That's not going out in the street.
That's not putting myself in quote unquote harm's way because some people were like, I wasso happy to see the marches because I saw so many middle-class people willing to undergo
(27:39):
like harm for social change.
And then the other
comment says, barbecues are necessary.
We need social gatherings in this time and like climate change, this climate, sorry, notclimate change, in this climate.
Like I hate, I hate uh in this climate guys.
I really do.
I hate when they say now, now.
(27:59):
Like just be more white to think now in the way things are right now.
Cause it's always going to be that then they can just keep making it worse.
And then you'll just say, now, what wasn't it?
What about the first time?
What about 2016?
What about 2008?
What about when the, were just like financial?
(28:21):
What do you mean?
They just been lying forever.
They said, go to college, get a good job.
That's their white lie.
Eat veggies, grow big and strong.
White lie.
And then we got, went to college and they're like, whatever, you were supposed to figureit out.
That was our little white lie to get you there.
And we had to get you to, yup.
(28:46):
Yup.
You made these decisions at the age of 17 that are gonna affect you for the rest of yourlife.
And we think that's totally reasonable.
Totally reasonable.
you're a big kid.
You're an adult.
Um, you can figure it out.
No, it, none of it, it is set up to destabilize us.
Right.
So, so that they can offer the solutions, the stability, the payday loans and whatever.
(29:08):
Like literally we have to stop asking the system to do like, do something different, youknow?
it should just be said for the record that I do not think if middle-class white Americathought that there were gonna be bullets fired at the protest that they would be out
there.
So just need to call, I just need to call BS on that one, right?
(29:34):
Like people were literally asking me before the parade, right?
They're like, are you gonna bring your child?
And I was like, yes.
Because I'm not afraid, there was no threat of violence toward white people gathering infront of the Capitol that day.
They can just say, well, I thought there could be, so now I get props for putting myselfthere when in theory, there are scenarios in which other people have, and I don't see
(30:04):
color, so, where Black people are here.
And I think there was another instance recently where there was a parade or something andpeople got arrested and the white people just watched as the Black woman gets arrested and
whatever.
The problem isn't that people don't know you're upset.
Okay?
Everyone's miserable.
It's that you're not doing, you don't see yourself as one of the people capable, like whoare you talking to?
(30:29):
Who's the sign for?
Who are you?
When it was black people in the street saying black lives matter, we're talking to whitepeople.
That's very clear.
Cause they're the, those are the people responding back.
Who's responding back to y'all?
Hands off us.
You want to protest your pro, but.
Go home, figure out a different way to have conversations with people who are sayingharmful things.
(30:53):
Do a little, have more patience with people in your actual sphere of influence or don'tand be quiet about it because black people aren't so like, oh, you cut off your family,
good for you.
I don't, that's not, they're still out here.
We still have to interact with them.
You, like there is an anger part and a rage part of realizing stuff, but like, mygoodness.
(31:16):
Monthly marches, MLMs, monthly liberal marches is, is you think when people went for theBlack Lives Matter marches that, and I didn't even realize those were, they were going to
wear the shirt today.
just like that.
They were like, I hope I see you guys next month here.
No.
And there was a point, and then it was, the reasons, you don't need to say.
(31:39):
There doesn't need to be an agenda and a schedule, and three weeks later, and.
And this is the reality of it, right?
That like with any mass movement, there is a tipping point, right?
There's a tipping point at which the people being ruled decide they're not gonna put upwith it anymore.
And the reality here is that white America has not hit that level yet, right?
(32:03):
When we hit that level, we're gonna pour into the streets, right?
There's going to be an immediate reaction of like, we're not taking this anymore.
I mean, I'm more and more wondering if we're just gonna sit and like watch, you know, asthe country just becomes a very blatant dictatorship.
But I think at some point, right, like...
(32:25):
option.
So I think I don't think it's going to be because I think we look at dictatorships andthings like that from this bird's eye view instead of a human's eye view and like in a
history and whatever.
Like we're already in a thing.
We're already in it.
It's happening revolution.
You know, we're having conversations that could not have been had elsewhere.
Like when you talk about the bite model, the information part is where it's mostvulnerable.
(32:51):
And if you consider those cults,
things, right, having access to information.
So then with the internet, they flooded information in many different directions.
uh But I get nervous, well, not even nervous.
So I look at white people as culty people, especially the people who aren't seeing theirown agency in this, right, like who are looking to...
(33:14):
like daddy politician, like guys with a bit, looking just to organizations, looking tocompanies, looking to, these aren't real things, looking to anything but themselves.
Like the way cults end isn't pretty, isn't all the cult members leave and flood thestreets and get pissed.
(33:36):
I mean, NXIVM was fortunate in the kind of way that they had a couple people at the top.
be really loud and have community for each other.
But a lot of people die.
And that's what's been like, we listened to this government and how many people died ofCOVID didn't have to happen if we had a different leader at the time.
know, like if we had deconstructed certain things about who to listen to, who not to, whois this system, we have for-profit healthcare.
(34:08):
that doesn't make that you are planting the seeds that this is obviously poisonous tree.
like those things could help us, right?
But like, just think, and it's already happening, you know, the suicide rates for youngwhite boys are like all high, I believe.
And cause they don't see a way out.
I feel like it has to, there are other ways than
(34:29):
the options we've seen in terms of the way things can go.
Cause we never even seen matriarchies.
eh What about building up this community on the side will not be on TV.
Like when they say the revolution will not be televised, it's cause it's not like a onething.
uh People are being forced out of the cult a bit with layoffs and stuff and being forcedout into the streets and all these people have no homes and everything like that.
(34:56):
we're already in it.
And we're seeing how people react and it's selfishly.
And if we don't, guess, I mean, I guess maybe all right, because I thinking if we don'tcome to see our own place in it, like, yeah, we end up, guess, as a dictatorship then
really, cause you're, you're saying I will follow whoever tells me is in charge, even if Idon't believe in it.
(35:20):
That is not the state everybody else is living in, right?
Like I won't go to jail.
You're not going to go to jail?
If they say, do this terrible thing to this person, you're going to say, okay, I have to,that's what I want to change.
Right.
Because that's the only thing, the like excusing yourself from it.
And that's when you include and exclude yourself and say, I'm still a good person becauseI'm doing it because of this reason.
(35:46):
Right.
I think our cycle is like use, abuse, excuse.
And the excusing part is how it keeps going.
And then we repeat.
You can stop, you know.
so much in the way that white people are talking about the military and how scared theyare of the military, right?
And they tell me like, oh, what makes you think they're gonna make this choice not to dothe thing, right?
(36:10):
And it's like, the military is made out of humans and every single one of them isresponsible for like not doing the things, right?
And that is all, you know, it very much,
humans.
You see them as human.
gives when Christians are like, well, if you're not a Christian, what's stopping you frommurdering people?
(36:31):
And you're like, I don't desire to murder people.
That's what is stopping me.
And that's also how you are viewing every other person in the world.
And what does that mean about yourself?
Like that whole thing is what's so scary about how people think.
Right?
So you just imagine this world where everyone just is hands up, does their job no matterwhat.
(36:55):
I would like to see a world where we look at each other and go, I'm not doing that.
Cause that's what we do.
You guys are watching zombie apocalypse.
I'm watching them and going, yeah, that would never happen.
but you're watching going, how would I kill faster?
Those are different, but that's cause you're, yeah.
unleashed on your fellow people is just quite a thing.
(37:19):
And this is what I feel like there's still so much binary thinking in this, in all thelike, oh, we're gonna have a revolution.
There's gonna be a signal, right?
There's gonna be a signal, there's gonna be a call to arms.
And I just saw this TikTok video today.
of this woman who like read out the Declaration of Independence and like what we aresaying that King George did that is not acceptable and just showing stories, know, news
(37:47):
stories of Trump.
Like every single one of these things that we went to war over, the literal revolutionarywar, like he's done it, but.
I mean, white America does not know how to respond.
And I think that it's because everyone believes, right?
They believe it's either peace or war, democracy or dictatorship, white or black, right?
(38:13):
The white are wrong.
Right.
Yeah.
It's yeah.
And that paternalism of leaving King, I don't even know who, right?
Like the dad of the family from before we left the nest and we, these are these men,right?
They, I'm not under dad's rules anymore.
was stupid.
And then they go get their house and they're like, okay, now what am I going to do?
(38:36):
I need to be a dad.
And then they go.
And then they're like, mm, dads have kids and people and I need to be dadder than this.
Let me go buy some people.
And then they just do exactly what they saw their dad do.
And they're like, well, it's different.
Cause I love, love you.
Love you.
Yup.
Love you.
(38:56):
Roman, Romans, you know, the more, remember I've talked about how much I've the romanceand romance and we'll talk about it another time, but like the, uh
The Roman Catholic Church was the first one.
I didn't even think make that connection because the Roman Catholic Church was the firstcolonizing element for white people.
And white people just kept the Roman romanticizing manipulation.
(39:19):
And people really forget this.
Like the Roman Empire didn't end, it transformed into the Catholic Church, right?
Like that is Augustine, right?
Emperor Augustine was, know, Romans believed in multiple gods and he saw Christianity, thesect that they had been trying to extinguish, and he literally realized, oh, monotheism is
(39:46):
gonna help me control people.
Bye.
so he literally converted and that's when Christianity became like the official religionand et cetera, et cetera, et This leads to the Catholic Church of today.
This is why the Pope has his own country, right, in the Vatican.
Yeah, the Vatican is its own sovereign state.
(40:07):
Yeah, and of course also Donald Trump just posted a picture of himself as the Pope.
as the Pope?
yeah, he literally posted a picture of himself as the Pope.
he said, I want to be my dad?
Yeah.
Like that's all they have is the forefathers.
Everyone wants to be your dad.
Who said dads were good?
(40:28):
Just because you're a dad.
And I think there's a whole other rebrand, because we talked about the rebrand and Irealized that that's a lot of where the hoods of whiteness come from, like hoods, also
like victim hood, sister hood, mother hood, you know, we talked little bit about that.
The fatherhood.
the dads, they just own things.
(40:48):
And it's the most pyramid scheme of it all, because they have nothing, they're nothingwithout a downline.
But now that they're a dad, they can be a family guy.
And now it's just they have a downline, because if they're just in a house, they're, theycould be gay.
Right?
I don't know.
God forbid.
They're just like, guy, leave us out of it.
It's a parasitic predatory pyramid scheme of property management instead of people.
(41:12):
They're just like, well, this is now my people.
And the only way they know is what they were shown from their, and they don't even likeit, but it's all they know.
it's like, we of course, we repeat.
m
the time, they'll be like, well, I was not done this way.
You my dad's a dick, but like, and you're like, okay, so maybe don't repeat the pattern.
(41:33):
My dad hated his middle name, was, doesn't matter.
It was actually his first name.
He changed it to his middle name because he hated it so much, but then he gave it to hisfirst son as his middle name.
And he was just like, man, that's how much.
And I remember hearing this growing up.
And this is why I am the way I am.
Cause my older brother was like, why would you give it to me if you hated it?
(41:53):
And they're just kind of like, but he also was, I had jobs with us in Jamaica, veryabandoned, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff there.
uh
But you have to just accept that and realize, people are just making decisions so you canmake better ones.
Like if you are calling and calling these people and hoping they just change everythingand make it the utopia, that's you, but you don't believe in yourself.
(42:17):
You believe you can change these people through romance and, but you can't do something,your actual self that is shown that you've been destabilized by this system.
And codependency is such a uh fundamental part of this culty caste system.
(42:37):
Ooh, like codependency on a job for healthcare or insurance.
We need it just in case, because you may need it.
So now it's required in case you can't drive without.
car insurance.
The car insurance is supposed to be there to help you.
(42:59):
Right?
That's like how they pitch it is like in case something happens, you don't have to worryabout paying for it all.
They sold that to you as a safety measurement, but now it's mandatory.
for you.
And then they get to decide, but who was, who, how, all the different, you know,qualifications and, but the mandatory part for the, with the government, like involved in
(43:24):
it.
And so hold on.
I hate that.
I'm just very, if it were me, it'd be uninsurance all the way.
But I think a fundamental aspect of like what I think, and I don't know if I've said ithere, but to me it would be land back to the indigenous people back to the black women.
That's it.
Right?
Get the land back.
And that would take care of all the other universal basic income, universal healthinsurance, all that stuff would just be, wouldn't even be a conversation.
(43:52):
It shouldn't be, but it is because you were in this cult that says, Zach, your value is inthe fact that other people don't have as much.
Like you're only a human who can live because others can't.
It's an MLM, okay?
Only 1 % of people can make it.
(44:12):
But if you opened it up to make it a V, a W instead of an M.
Yeah.
Lots of people.
Yeah.
But that's also why I'm taking myself off of, realized almost over a year ago, I said Iwas gonna leave TikTok, I did.
(44:32):
I don't use it as much, but we wanna be able to have sustainable movements and it's why Ihope people bring my voice into those conversations, which is how you'll know if a white
woman is on the right path, if they bring black women's voices into rooms where theyalready aren't, in a positive way.
(44:54):
I don't think I should have had to tell you, but you just never know.
Not to attack someone, not for correction, not to language police.
Not like that.
Not to show how much you're better than these other white people who hadn't heard it yet.
Cause you don't even know that could be your community right there.
Someone who just said something a little, because you can hear it and they can't hear it,but you know, they mean well.
(45:17):
Like it, that could be how we do this.
Talk to each other.
you know, that's something that you said that really stuck with me was if white peopledon't deal with why Donald Trump has become president twice in the first place, like, it
doesn't really matter whether we get him out or not.
You know, and this to me is like, like white women being like, what can we do right now?
(45:42):
Like, go work on your people.
Go have those hard conversations with your people.
Yes.
that you're having with the politicians, like that you're too scared to have with yourfather-in-law, like go have it.
Yes, instead of canvassing, well, you know, I always just said like you're canvassing, butthose people, why are you doing that?
(46:03):
Cause it's easier and they're told, you you give the reasoning and swing states and da dada.
But there's people across the couch from you, you don't feel comfortable speaking to andyou care about them, but this matters.
So shouldn't you talk to the people?
Like it will impact them.
You have to like, why, why are you doing it?
Who are you talking to?
Why are you talking to them?
And I hope it's not just to win, to feel good about yourself.
(46:28):
Like, because I feel good about myself when I do this, but that's not like why.
I don't know.
You know what mean?
You get it.
Yeah, you know, I don't know.
I always say that about my work.
I'm like, I did this for myself.
I wrote my book for my own healing.
Like, I studied all this stuff for myself.
Now I do it as a job.
It's great that it helps people, but like, I'm doing it for me.
(46:51):
um And I think that has to be all deconstruction though.
like you have to realize that you're deconstructing white supremacy because it is worsefor us.
It has created a horrible broken system for all of us.
Not to get an A plus on your report card.
Yeah, not to absolutely not to help marginalized communities.
(47:16):
Like if that's how you are approaching it, like you are fine or, you know, I used to hatehearing the housewives back in the day when it was okay to say things like, I'm never
guilty to be privileged.
That was like their taglines and stuff.
They say, I think it's important to give back, to give back, giving back.
Um,
Why did you take it in the first place?
(47:38):
yeah, um you know, countess talk about like give giving back is interesting.
And it's like going to volunteer at the, with the little black kids and play basketballwith them.
Absolutely not giving the dresses you didn't, you don't want to wear anymore.
And that like, you get to feel good about yourself.
That has delayed actual progress.
(48:03):
Though charity work, I think America is like number one in charity.
Right?
Like, that's a problem.
have any social programs because we're like, oh just let the rich like white ladies dealwith it and That's not
given something in order to do it too.
So it's not like they just give, it's like, well, I'll buy this necklace and that, aportion of that money will, you don't, this is, I want to take those things away from you.
(48:28):
I need you to sit with the discomfort of your life and then move forward.
And all you can do is talk to people and be in relationship.
And you can find ways that actually make you feel better, but also do something with apositive impact.
Like both things can exist.
but we were just taught like, I wrote here, more dollars doesn't mean more cents.
(48:50):
Okay, those are different things.
Every time I have a discussion with a white person about anti-racism, like, I feel better.
Every time I have a discussion with a white person about what I'm reading or what you havesaid recently to me, Rebecca, that's blowing open my mind or like, you know, any of that.
Like, I feel good, right?
(49:11):
So you can get your good feelings from like doing the work and from talking about it withother people.
And you're safer just by way of doing that in terms of who you're around.
The people around you are therefore safer people because you've kind of done a littlelitmus test, even though you didn't realize it, of, okay, they're safe with this, they'll
(49:32):
be all right.
And I'm telling you that from information I've gathered, you know, is how do peoplerespond to even just hearing my name will say something.
And it's, you make people uncomfortable.
It's better they be uncomfortable like that than when you aren't necessarily.
prepared, you've gotten closer to them and now you're trying to rationalize, well, theysaid this thing.
(49:52):
Get ahead of it.
Just say, uh, that made me think of this thing from white women, whisper.
I ever heard.
I don't know.
Actually don't let me get, I'm not going to give you a script.
That sounds MLM-y, but like you understand.
I just think there are ways to build community that are just natural and not like sociallystrategic and networking and make it for a moral cause.
(50:15):
Calm down.
Calm down, just wear some color and because you like it.
And I think that was also an element I wanted to point out was like, you wear color, notfor the compliments, but you wear color and also that gets you compliments.
And I think in whiteness, operates focused on what is she trying to get from me?
(50:37):
And maybe that's also why some white women won't compliment you and give you that.
Cause they're like, that's why she's wearing it.
She wants to be complimented.
And that would be, you know, when you're so focused on what you're not going to do andwhat you're, I wouldn't and da da da.
And I don't feel that way.
All that's happening is like, you literally like color and you like wearing color andpeople notice, but when you are in that competitive, that cast that MLM that what is a
(51:05):
comparison.
And if she's wearing color, that means I should calm down.
Calm down.
She's wearing, you just, people just live their lives.
not centering yourself.
Yeah, and that's, I don't know, like what I've learned through doing this is like, yeah,you do the work for you and black people are gonna let you know when you're safe.
(51:26):
Like they are going to come closer and have more conversations.
like, it's not, it's, yeah, it's not something you can work toward.
You kind of just have to do it and then,
As you become safer, you'll know because there will be more black people in your life.
(51:46):
Like it's just that simple, but and it's, we're just so used to these, know, cultycharismatic confidence salesmen who say, all you gotta do is the black women will come.
Sorry, just imagine these black women coming.
Terrible, terrible.
I'm gonna make that infomercial though.
uh
It's just, comes back to that easy version of everything.
(52:07):
Like everyone wants an easy signal, an easy button, and I'm just like, you know what, if,yeah.
this showing of, I'm, but that's just not, when you're not in a cult, it gets a little, ittakes more time than that.
You can't just perform it.
So.
yeah, and it's not like
just been speaking to my whole school right there.
(52:31):
It's not just, yeah, it's don't like, don't show you're safe, just be safe.
Just be it.
You can't like, yeah, can't show it.
It's not a show and tell situation.
Show and tell, when it's a whole other white people thing.
I learned too much.
Yeah, just be safe with yourself first.
Also, like realize when you make a mistake or you make a bad decision, quote unquote, noneof those are real.
(52:57):
You're fine.
You're fine.
And once you're nice to yourself like that, you'll realize other people have no reason tobe mean to you the way you would be mean to you.
So they're just, you know, they're just being everyone's just hanging out.
That's such a good point too.
Yeah, it's a good one.
Well, thank you everybody for listening to our conversation today.
We appreciate you being on this journey with us and hope that you are talking to all ofyour people about the things that you're learning.
(53:25):
Cause this is how we're gonna like undo this huge 400 year F-up that we've been in.
Yes, just tell a friend to tell a friend.
Like do the thing that we're based, you know, we're supposed to do as humans.
We want to tell each other gossip about our history in like an interesting way.
It's a lot there.
Thanks.
so much for listening.
(53:45):
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Thanks everybody.