Episode 39 | Living Rooms are for LIVING

In this episode, Daniella and Rebecca unpack what happens when white belief in institutional fairness collides with the lived reality of systemic injustice. Daniella reflects on a moment of betrayal in traffic court and how it cracked open her assumptions about justice, privilege, and whiteness. The conversation weaves through topics like the myth of rule-following as protection, the military's blending of cultural vernaculars, and the unique disorientation white women face when systems stop working for them.

They also explore how white women’s fear of “doing it wrong”—especially around cultural appropriation—can become a form of self-centered paralysis that stalls genuine connection and accountability. From craft-covered couches to the politics of "fancy" china, the episode moves fluidly between the personal and political, ultimately calling for white women to stop asking for permission and start listening, intervening, and acting with intention.

Connect with Rebecca at:

The White Woman Whisperer Website

 

The White Woman Whisperer Patreon

 

The White Woman Whisperer TikTok

 

Connect with Daniella at:

You can read all about that story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
So this thing I've been thinking about, you know, I have, I say like I grew up in Mexico,I was a teenager in Mexico where all the children get the talk about the police and all
the adults carry money in their cars to bribe the police officers.
And it's not because Mexicans are more corrupt.

(00:27):
It's because there's no confidence that if they are taken by the police into the system,
that they will come back out.
And I think that's what Black people are dealing with in America.
That's very, very different.
Like my husband and I are not afraid that if we go protest and get arrested, that we'renot gonna come back out, right?

(00:50):
We're not afraid when we get pulled over that this is how we're gonna die.
We trust in the system and habeas corpus and whatever that we're eventually gonna be okay.
And that's...
starting to slip for everyone in America.
um But.
this entitlement to chances and extra because you're like, I deserve it because I'veearned it.

(01:16):
you earned this even because your life was hard or something.
You did something a lot.
I got a ticket in Seattle once and it was like a BS ticket, right?
Like the cop was up kind of on a rise.
He could look into the car, he could see the phone on my knee that I was using fordirections and he pulled me over and he gave me a ticket for being on my phone.

(01:41):
And I wasn't, right?
And it was bullshit.
And I was like, no, I'm not paying this.
I'm fricking going to court, right?
And I went to court and I was like,
I'm a fricking officer in the United States military.
Like there's no reason not to believe me.
The judge literally says to me at the end, he's like, I do believe you, but I also have noreason not to believe him.

(02:03):
So I'm choosing him.
And I literally went out and I was like, I was so enraged and like, this is such bullshit.
And then black people were kind of like, yeah, welcome.
It took you this long.
And I, yeah, right?
trusted that I was going to go get my day in court and because I wasn't wrong, they weregoing to have to overturn the ticket.

(02:27):
Right.
Like you, you feel like people are beholden to this.
Like, you know, the, is, this is right and correct according to your rules.
So why, and especially with the autism brain, right?
It's like,
that we're told in white supremacy, like don't break the rules and then you won't get introuble.

(02:47):
And it's like, no, I wasn't breaking the rules and I still got in trouble.
Yeah.
the rules and retroactive rules are always gonna be used.
it's like, you have to realizing at the end of the day, there's just people and there's a,there's just a dude, I'm not gonna get into the whole judge thing, but like, you're

(03:09):
believing, our belief and the betrayal trauma that can kind of come when.
you know, those lives are stripped from you or you don't realize and you've earned allthis stuff and then something just happens and you're like, have been, so I'm gonna call
the police for whatever, right?
I'm gonna call the police.
Like that sense that there is some higher system that is gonna come in and go, well, oneplus one, two.

(03:38):
even though.
objectively and, you know.
looks just like me, you make me uncomfortable.
um I have to see this guy probably tomorrow.
That's a man named Steve who wants to follow the rules, but honestly, just like you wantto follow the sometimes it doesn't feel as good.
And so they choose the thing that feels better, which is their friend.

(04:02):
It's like how many, they're just, they're just people.
They're just people.
Judge?
No, oh, he's got a dress on.
and just put a wig on him.
We make fun of the wig.
He's gonna go do when be Bob or Steve or Jim.
Like, he's got all those papers.

(04:23):
um And we have to stop.
Yeah.
Well, decorum in the court.
You know, everything is wrong about this.
You agree, you agree, he agrees, we all agree.
But...
um
That's, my hands are tied because a paper, a precedent, listen to what you're saying.

(04:45):
Has it happened before?
I don't know.
Is there a paper written where some other guy has made this kind of decision for me,please?
And if not, what can I do?
Yeah
What are you talking about?
And they will always choose what is easier for them.
Also, that's his job.

(05:06):
How much do you care about your job and doing, and when you go to your job, don't you dothings that, you know, but you gotta.
When he's like, has no reason to lie about it, I'm like, he does.
That's his job is to give tickets.
m
terminating cliche for them.
It's like, this is why I'm going to do the thing that keeps me more comfortable and inbetter standing and reputation with within my group system.

(05:31):
But that's why I don't really call it a privilege.
I don't see it as one.
um well, what ends up happening, right?
Because there is a, there's going to be if like an ego death or a betrayal trauma one daywhen you realize, oh,
This really was set up just for a few people to be what they're not even comfortable.

(05:53):
They're just more comfortable that other people are experiencing something they can optout of.
Listen, rules are tools.
What is done with the tools is what we're gonna, but these are the master's tools.
Terrible, terrible.
They said those people made up the rules.
They made it up and we are going to them asking them to please use those rules to let usbe free.

(06:20):
You're asking for your freedom.
That doesn't make sense.
And there's like a lot of different quotes about back in the day.
It's like, you didn't give anyone freedom because you can't, you don't have rights to takethem away.
You did not turn people into, and this is a, yeah, you took their autonomy.

(06:42):
in a sense, because they found it anyway, they had it anyway.
Even when the people are in a cult, it's not that they don't find ways to see, they stillare themselves.
Even if you don't think those people are still themselves, there's an authentic selfunderneath all of them.
Even, you know, that doesn't go away because you are conditioned.

(07:02):
That's, you know, those are all people.
I just, it's about,
Dividing, in my opinion.
Divide the people who are there thinking they have to be from those who want to be there,harming people.
Because there are people in the group who are there knowing they can push certain thingsand use emotional dysregulation to their benefit and say, know, oh, we have to have a mask

(07:30):
on and shoot people.
Right?
uh But then there are people in there like, have to have a mask on and shoot people.
Those are the people we need to go, no, no.
But you can't lump, I don't know, man.
I struggle with it, because it really, feel like privilege is paralyzing you.

(07:51):
It's being pampered to paralysis.
You just are told, call the police.
Call the, my husband is beating me, let me call the police.
They're the, who's most likely working that?
What do you think he thinks?
That's what I think has really been bothering me about this whole kind of like whitepeople panic on the left right now.

(08:15):
I'm like, it's very white privilege and American exceptionalism because like people arealready living and like literally white Americans don't know what to do because they've
never had to fight.
We've generally have had systems that have worked for us.
I was 35 fricking years old when this thing with the cop happened.

(08:39):
No, it's probably 33, but still.
um There's another thing I need to talk to you about, Rebecca.
um I have just discovered that I don't know the difference sometimes between things thatare AAVE and things that are army culture.

(08:59):
And I've done it twice now, so I know, like I get it.
uh
the first thing is we will use, in the Army we will use, so what happened was, and that'skind of like our Florida man, Like like soldiers will be soldiers, soldiers will do silly
things.
And so I said that once in a video and people were like, ooh, don't, you know?

(09:23):
And so obviously I stopped.
And then just last week or two weeks ago, I said, we've been knowing or we be knowing.
which is also an army thing and it's also like an intel thing, you know?
um And again, and black people are just like, oh no.
And so now I'm like, don't know the difference.

(09:46):
one thing is interesting, it's because like the military does throw the cultures togetherin a way that doesn't authentically happen regularly in the US.
So it like makes sense that that stuff has been pulled in.
but it's just making me realize now, anytime I wanna use slang, I'm like, I don't, youknow, like, I don't know if I should.

(10:10):
Not a huge problem.
I'm just saying that like this was one of my realizations.
And in part because I think I didn't grow up in the US.
So I don't, you know, have that much experience of hearing those things before I was inthe military anyway.
um

(10:31):
Hmm.
But I literally for the last two weeks have been like, I'll go to say something slang andthen I'm like, nope, I'm just gonna say that like with all the words or whatever.
um
even if you think about slang as a concept, is...
Black.
You know, it's like almost saying like ghetto, like technically.

(10:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, yeah, it's right.
Like ghetto, like saying something is ghetto.
I've been watching secret live of Mormon wives and she says something about the breadshe's making.
She's like, it's kind of ghetto, but I'm like, what the heck?
How did that end up in there?
And would she say that's Mormon?
Maybe that's like a Mormon site.
Like, no, it's not.

(11:14):
Yeah.
what you're saying is like, it is not army slang.
That's that or it, you know, and it's for kind of fun.
appropriating black culture.
I just realized that I didn't know the difference there.
it's in like silliness.
It's not in any slang that's serious.
It's not an acronym that you guys take seriously, right?

(11:36):
It's like in we mess up or like where we, you know, it's giving this and I, you housewivesused to do it.
You just, you can kind of see it a lot in white people.
It's like Wednesday have an attitude.
Once they want to get silly, goofy, that's when all of a they start.
kind of like digital blackface, like borrowing sass.

(11:57):
Like one of the one of the best things I saw was like a picture of the two Schitt's Creekpeople.
Have you ever heard of that show with Dan Levy?
And they're like, why the just white guy and white girl that have enough sass for whitepeople?
They're just like, you never have to use black people's sass ever again.
Like you have Schitt's Creek.

(12:18):
Be happy, you know.
got it.
You have this, you don't need to be us.
Like that's when I used to say, you, like white people have culture and you can havecommunity if you embrace the things that you are, but instead you're taught to hate
everything distinct.
So like, you don't even understand what your stuff is.
And then when you hear people making fun of you or other cultures talking about you, youthink that gotta be bad.

(12:42):
It's not always bad.
It's just noticing you and you're saying, but you.
feel like being seen is a uh crime.
Because when you see black people, it's a crime.
I'm just now finding out that go white girl is like a compliment, you know?
mean.
what do you mean?
We see you literally.
That's a positive, but that's what I talk about.

(13:05):
The black sheep stuff online.
man.
It's like black sheep is just a black sheep until white Europeans came in and were like,actually the black sheep is the ones we give to the wolves.
And you know why?
Because they deserve it.
You know why?
Because they're dirty.
That's why they're black.
You know what?
And so that's why the wolves and I have you, they stay away from you.

(13:27):
It's not true.
They're just teaching you and preaching to you that and promising you the wolves will beclear as long as we sacrifice these black sheep to the wolves.
And then slowly those wolves are like, okay, so we could just pretend to be one of y'all.
And then they sneak in with the white people.
I mean sheep.
The sacrifice of the black sheep.
Like that needs to be an essay, Rebecca.

(13:49):
I'm realizing that it does because this is one of those things where I'm starting torealize it's my Amelia Bedelia syndrome.
I don't know how much you know about Amelia Bedelia.
My mom used to love Amelia Bedelia reading it to me, but I didn't realize that she wasreading it to me because of who I was.
Right.
My mom just saw me and I was just like, but just realizing from, you know, TikTok andautistic and awareness and stuff.

(14:11):
I was like, mom, Amelia Bedelia, you know how, and that's kind of like me.
And she was like,
Yeah, why do you think I read two of those books?
um, but like,
pause here to say for my white autistic family ladies, like sense of justice, autisticsense of justice does not mean you're educated on social justice like that, no, no.

(14:32):
You just want things to be fair.
We want things to be our perception of fair.
I cannot, to this day, I cannot share popcorn with anyone else because the division willnot be fair.
This was...
I'm not a good sharer, I'm a terrible sharer.

(14:53):
Yeah.
I, because of being growing up semi-starved, because of having this sense of fairness,like literally I will have more popcorn than I can eat.
And my husband goes to take some, but he told me he wasn't gonna have any.
And I will just like immediately, I'm like, I'm so triggered.
yeah, that's that same little sense of like, but, that's okay.

(15:16):
But when that starts creeping in and you never get a challenge because consequences aremanaged around your whiteness and you're taught that when you feel something strongly,
that is justified and whatever you do as a result is justified.
You start to not realize that, okay, sometimes you're gonna have to share becauseotherwise someone's gonna hit you in the face.
Or whatever, you know, some kind of consequence will happen.

(15:37):
But if in return someone steps in and punches that little kid for, you you not sharing,whatever, you know, I just think privilege comes in and changes how natural consequences
act.
And it's okay not to be a good share personally.
I'm going to say it so many times because I'm like, I had to realize that about myself.
I, I'm uncomfortable with certain things.

(16:00):
No, no, no.
Yeah.
but he knew not to touch my stuff.
I was always a little controlling about certain things, right?
And we all understood.
My mom just was like, this is how my kids are.
And my brother just knew not to mess with their stuff, But that's okay.

(16:23):
And I still love everybody in my house and I would just understand.
And it was my own personal thing.
I just...
didn't share with myself very well.
I would like hide my own things from myself.
My brother told me about this.
You know, like, that was a me problem, right?
That wasn't like, you're not a good whatever.
It was like a control, uh you know, therapy is good for everybody.

(16:47):
oh Because if I don't see it and I realize I'm connecting it now, because like now I liketo see all my things.
If I can't see it, I forget about it.
Yeah.
object memory.
So my bedroom, I just have all of my jewelry on the wall and all of my scarfigans and allof my, like my side of the bedroom looks like a bazaar because even, Rebecca, a jewelry

(17:14):
closet, you know, the mirror one, I still, but then I have to remember to open the closetand I don't.
So then I don't, yeah, it's called.
like, what do you mean?
I forget I have family.
It's like, I love everybody in my family.
Right?
No.
Okay.
Enough.
But I, the people I love and care about have learned and I've had to learn myself.

(17:38):
Like, it's not that I don't love them because I forget they exist if I'm not around.
Right.
And I like being, you know, I'm back in New Jersey officially and like,
I have a better sense of them.
I have lots of thoughts and opinions on this, like, you know, community and stuff and whatmakes you comfortable and boundaries and all of that.
But.
Yeah, that's okay.

(17:59):
That's just how our brains work.
And those people love you still, which is the point is like, if you're brought up withconditional care, that's very confusing because you feel like one, something's wrong with
you.
And then it's like, Oh, am I bad?
I so am I, you know, but like, no, I like to be able to see all my crochet things and myyarn because otherwise I'll forget I have those as things I like to do until I see them

(18:25):
again.
I'm like, right.
The other.
we walk into another room what we needed.
It's almost like I have to go back just so I can have the brain like see the same thingagain that strikes another, you know?
day, all the people in my house were gone unexpectedly and I literally just sat here in apile of rainbow yarn and jewelry, listening to a book and doing my crafts.

(18:51):
And I was like, I can't explain how happy this makes me.
I'm just covered in bright colorful yarn and just like.
It's like, that's why I like to be at home with my stuff.
It's where all my things are.
What are you saying?
That's, you know, once you start to actually enjoy the things you do, seeing them andbeing around them, it's like, there's a difference between messy and dirty, right?

(19:16):
Like things may be around and messy to you, but like, to me, it makes sense.
I like the colors.
I want them around.
I don't want to pretend I don't exist and have to like physically go get something all thetime.
you heard of the living room kids?
somewhat.
So it's so it's basically millennials and this might be a white millennial thing, right?

(19:41):
But like they spent so much time in their rooms growing up.
And so when we have our kids, we build them these super awesome rooms and then they don'thang out in their rooms.
They hang out in the living room and their toys are everywhere and our living rooms are amess.
And there was one.

(20:01):
woman, wrote this thing and she was just like, I just realized I have living room kids.
I hung out, I hung out at my bedroom because my living room was not safe, was not a placeI wanted to be, you know, basically conditional love, right?
And like our kids are living room kids because they like to hang out with us.

(20:22):
They like to be in the center of the family, you know?
And being seen as not dangerous because of being seen as dangerous, just presents somedanger.
It's like when you feel like going outside.
Yeah.
rooms don't look like showcase living rooms like our parents' did, right?
But like.
it?
What's a living room for?

(20:44):
It doesn't make any sense.
what are we doing where those, you know, having a closet full of things.
literal stab marks, literal stabs and slices in it, because it's craft house.
I just have this nice quilt that someone sent me just covering it up.
It's fine.
The plastic couches, right?

(21:06):
The plastic cover on the couches, who were you saving it for?
And like.
we did talk about this because I remember showing you the picture of my, I grew up with agrandma with a plastic couch.
the fancy china and like the, so in our last house in Seattle, I had like the whole diningroom set up, right?
And like the fancy china that we use once or twice a year.

(21:29):
Literally, we moved out, we had the house staged.
They actually used that space for something and it was so much better.
And we made this rule.
We like moved in here.
When we moved, we were like every single time we have a visitor.
we're eating on grandma's fancy china.
Like, doesn't matter if it's our best friend, doesn't matter.
Right, but it's it's not, right?

(21:52):
It's just nice from these, I mean, previous generations.
This basically goes back to like a China, like a China service, like a pot and fancyplates and blah, blah.
And it goes back to like a dowry, right?
Like this is like stuff you brought with you to make your home and to.

(22:13):
have to run away with in case you needed to.
know, kind of like Indians give gold bangles to their daughters before they get marriedwhere like, that's your literal, that's your literal worth that you're bringing with you
and like value that you can take away.
But it's kind of like diamonds, like they're fake valuable, right?

(22:34):
Like, so my husband is from that family where all the...
like when you get married, grandma would buy a fancy set of china and give it to you.
And like, I'm not even the wedding it was given to us for.
was like another one, another, my husband's first wife, it's not important to me, it's notfancy to me, I don't care if it gets chipped.

(22:54):
I like, I don't think the queen is gonna come anytime soon to my house, you know?
And if she did, I would buy new china.
Like, or I would just tell her the stories about my.
hold on, hold on.
I got something to say to this lady.
Hold on real quick.
The queen is coming.
Oh, sorry.

(23:15):
Was that supposed to, Liz, I've been obsessed.
So like I said with the Mormon, whatever, I've been like the fairy tales, you know, butI've also been thinking about the unfair fairy tales.
I really liked the fairies unfair fairy tales because, uh
It's really not, but religion, um royalty and uh romance.

(23:38):
Cause we talked about, think the romance is scam.
Man is literally in the center of the word.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just like been obsessed because once you realize like they're selling you something isterrible.
um But yeah, those three hours of the unfair retails.
And then it never really works out well for women in any of them.

(24:00):
Even in the best case scenario, it's like, then you get this man who is charming.
like, charming is right there with harming.
It's just a little C you put right there.
Like, what happens after the charm?
Happily ever after.
And we never hear from them again.
why are you turning on charm and what happens when you turn it off?

(24:24):
I have questions.
And then there's like, and the end of what?
Her life?
Yes.
Yes.
And then until she gives life and then she starts a new beginning, which is not a phrasethat makes sense, but white people love it.
Such are these moments.
I'm interested how they're gonna do, because they're doing a live action, Snow White.

(24:45):
uh And she's not white.
uh My Brazilian host daughter said she's the same color as her, which depending on whatcountry you're in is.
Anyway, she's like a kind of racially nondescript, racially nondescript, but I'minterested how they're gonna do the kiss thing, right?
Because we don't get on board with kissing sleeping women without their consent anymore.

(25:07):
So like, how are they gonna tell that story?
I heard that um the people were mad about, well, little people are mad because they didCGI for the seven dwarves.
So it's like, because Peter Dinklage, who is a little person, but also made a lot, youknow, he's very successful as well.
I just like, TikTok is good for some things.

(25:27):
Again, it's like, just like hear this conversation from a couple of them, interviews, likewho are in the business where like that would have been, we would have been hired for
that.
But instead, cause the,
one guy got on a podcast with a comedian and said, really, you're going to be allprogressive and make Snow White isn't white, but you're still making the story about
dwarves, huh?

(25:48):
I you're still doing them.
they were like, they were like, CGI.
Like, I don't know why.
It's like if a white man version of whatever you're talking about, if they say a thing,they're just like, great.
Now we don't have to pay one, these actors.
And we're doing it in the name of, he said.
I don't know.
So that's just been something where I'm just learning about.

(26:10):
That's the one that, I already was like, Snow White.
And also live action.
I don't know, why are we doing this?
We could be telling, we could be doing anything else.
But instead we're telling Snow White, a fairy, what did we, and we're like, well, butshe's not white, so.
Basically, everything's fine.

(26:33):
where?
Frozen came out and obviously got roundly criticized for being very very white and so infrozen part two like They do a good job, right?
They bring in an indigenous population They really tried but the question is like why didyou set it?
Why did you have to tell a story set in white people and in the first place, right?

(26:56):
Like why did you choose?
to make it that you know, like
like the version of inclusion of white people, including allowing black other people thatwasn't the, it wasn't give us a street name to after one of yours.
Like that wasn't the point.
It wasn't name us.
That's what you do for your people.
I'm not asking to do, to give us, let me tell a story without you talking for a second.

(27:22):
And then I can, well, no, no, we're saying how do we do our thing, but make
black people shut up about it.
And like, that's never gonna fix anything.
You're just shape shifting.
And then patting yourself on the back for doing something that makes some people a littleuncomfortable, great.
You know, like a black person wouldn't need to do anything.

(27:43):
Just make a, let black people make stuff.
that, like, to me, it's been so incredibly educational having these new shows come outthat are obviously made by the younger generation, written by Black people.
And it's like we've only seen the tokenization.
We've only seen the white man's version of how the Black person gets to show up.

(28:07):
And...
has decided what good is?
Those guys?
I'm sorry.
Why are we?
And then we're asking them to please, that's not what we're asking is please include us.
It was like, well, maybe we are, but like, I'm not anymore.
Right?
you're not saying please include us in your story.
You're saying get out of the way and let us tell our own stories, you know?

(28:30):
give us some of your money really, but they're not gonna do that.
So that's where I'm at.
dealt with this in being told like, you can't tell your story.
Like, you can't put pedophilia on the screen, right?
You can't put pedophilia on the page.
And I'm like, you can.
You're just gotta let those of us that it happened to be the ones to do it.

(28:52):
You know, like, don't put it on the page through your freaking gaze.
Oh my gosh.
And that's why it's like, you can't listen to these people, but you also have to removeyourself from these rules of this is what this means, this is what Hollywood's, who is
telling you that?
Those guys?

(29:12):
You gotta stop.
And that's something I wanted to get to on this, because I'm really starting to realizethat there is like this whole, not a whole, but it's like there's a lot of white women
that want to deconstruct whiteness, right?
Like they are our audience.
I have gone on my own journey with cultural appropriation and I'm from everywhere and thisis cultural appreciation and like, you know, so.

(29:40):
Two weeks ago, I bought a pair of gorgeous earrings from a black woman who gets all herstuff in Kenya and made them.
And like, I'm gonna buy those and I'm gonna wear those.
And I know why I'm doing that and how to defend that.
But I like, I want more of this conversation among black women and white women about like,why it's okay.

(30:06):
Like why it's okay, and I would like to pay black women very well for this conversation,right?
But like why it's okay as you're deconstructing whiteness to be understanding whereinfluences come from and like weaving that into who you want to be in an authentic way,
buying art from artists and you know, like there's a way to do it, right?

(30:31):
Like.
I assume this woman selling earrings to a white woman like wants to sell a lot of them,right?
And would not be mad to see me wearing them.
But most of the white women I know wouldn't wear those because they would be like, that'sculture.
You know, it's like, they're too scared.
White women are too scared to even have the discussion, to stand out, to maybe havesomeone from a distance think that you're culturally appropriating.

(31:01):
But see, that's what, see, and who's telling you, who's telling you that this is happeningeither?
Like, the fear of being, like, this is, I think, what white women have to get into,because it's not about, also, I wanted to say, because you said doing it and defending it,

(31:22):
I would say skip that last part.
Just do it, right?
Don't defend it.
The second you defend it or expect to have to, because who are you defending it to?
Other white women?
What do you, what do you mean?
Right?
Like you're wearing earrings.
Um, like do the earrings say I'm a black woman on them?
And even if they did, that's an interesting choice.

(31:46):
Black women have way more going on in their entire lives than looking at white women andjudging if they should be wearing something.
That's a white people activity.
you're putting whiteness on black women, you're saying that they're going to talk aboutme.
What?
And who says they're not already?
Why do you think that you get to decide what's the, you know, it's all hindsight thinking.

(32:10):
It's, it's your two forward.
It's like this anxiety focus and this also retrospective thing.
Like I would look in your past life self and be like, what was I wearing?
Like what happened?
Nothing.
Nothing.
If anything, she gonna say, where'd you get those?
In the worst of cases, I just don't know what people think black women do regularly withtheir lives.

(32:33):
Do you know how much we have going on and how many degrees?
that's, this is what I think is part of it, right?
It's because we are just now, right?
Like with TikTok, with social media, right?
We are just now beginning to hear black women's voices for the first time in our country,like at a high level, right?

(32:56):
Because that's the whole thing of the gatekeeping and of the glass, no, like it's been outthere.
I'm just saying, like it hasn't been, I feel like you had to go look for it and it hasn'tbeen, right?
Like if black women are not being published at a national level and being given the fulltreatment and all of that, then we're not hearing it.

(33:17):
And so I really think that like black women have such an important perspective on theAmerican experience, but white women are not hearing it.
And that's on
like that's on white women, that's like, I'm just trying to solve that and be like, howcan we make this conversation, like these conversations that you and I are having, but

(33:40):
like, how can we do that more?
Just more, I don't know.
it, right?
We have to just like be the change we want to see in that situation.
There's no easy answer.
That's what I realized because I thought, you know, in a perfect world, I thought, look, Imake this page called White Woman Whisper.
And then of course, millions of people are going to start even as I say it, are going tofollow me and see how great of an idea this is because they're all saying they want to

(34:06):
listen and learn.
They're saying
We're looking, we're asking, we don't want it.
You all the things you were saying they're looking for is this is why it's okay, da da da.
And look what happened.
That's why you're not hearing it is because white women don't want to.
And I think that's where white women can find community and figure out who does and howdid they become one of the people that wanted to.

(34:30):
How can we do that more?
Not necessarily have more conversations with black women because
They're happening.
Like you found me.
I'm trying.
I've been trying for four years.
Um, and I know others and I've referenced others.
I've posted others, but what happens, right?
And it's that culty silencing that white women think they are victim.

(34:52):
They hear this and fear I'm doing this and who should be afraid?
Me.
My message might get further.
If I, you know, something happens to me.
And I'm aware of that from the day I became like more viral.
was like, well now officially and maybe, and what I'm thinking now, I've made a wholevideo about it never posted it, but like I'm thinking now, maybe not.

(35:16):
How many black women have to die?
You know, we say your name and then we forget our name.
Um, but, so I don't even know anymore if that's actually true.
So, you know, that's where therapy and, you know, all that kind of awareness comes in.
And I'm not that important in reality.
I'm just trying to be impactful.
And that's what I need white women to get a little bit more in their impactfulness andrealize they're already being impactful in how they react or do not react to black women

(35:44):
who are currently speaking.
It's happening already.
What is happening?
We need security.
We need white women to play security.
We need white women to interfere and...
in between other white women know that there are differences between y'all.
Don't give every single one of them the benefit of doubt because you identify with her andnot the person trying so hard to reduce harm to her community, which includes you.

(36:10):
She includes you in her community and you go and harm her.
That's what needs to be because you'll hear us.
And I think that's how you can like your silence can amplify and you can silence others.
to amplify my voice when they come in and say, I'm a bit, you don't just sit back and go,Oh, she gonna handle them.
She, cause she's really good at this.

(36:30):
She doesn't need my help.
I do.
I do.
Or I'm not going to ask for it.
I know I can't look at how they look at what happens.
Cause the second I pushed back on that lady, here comes three more that, that pop up.
You're like, whatever you think happens with gray hairs.
You pull one and a bunch come running.
You have no community without someone to be against.

(36:52):
And that is so dangerous.
And it's how we got here, right?
And not seeing black women as like, and I think what's it's been out here and I, Iunderstand it too, cause I didn't read any, I didn't even know who Octavia Butler was a
couple of years ago.
Never even heard, you know, so as much as I speak about things now, it's like, this didn'tget to me.

(37:17):
So what do we do?
How can we
get this information to more white women in a way that is less harmful to black women.
Like how that information part of the culty existence, how can we break the seal, know,focusing on like cracking the sacred assumption and have them realize, I don't listen to
black women.

(37:37):
You know, I say the words, listen to black women, but when they speak, I am waiting totell them what I think about it.
That, what do you...
When they're talking to you, they're talking to you, like at you, at you, you know?
As a community, you don't answer for the, or you, whatever.

(37:58):
You know?
white ladies, we literally mean listen to black women.
Parable of the Sower is free on Spotify Premium.
You can start listening to it today.
Yup, yup.
I mean, it's like, her heirs are getting paid, right?
It's, Wait, she's passed on, right, I think?

(38:20):
Yeah.
So it's free to listen to, we can listen to it, and it's...
audio book.
know, so Joy Luck Club, when the book Joy Luck Club came out, right, that was the firstbook by an Asian American to ever go mainstream in America.
And it's because white women went out and bought it in mass, right?

(38:42):
It's because it went viral.
And all of a sudden, it wasn't a book about Chinese immigrant women and their Americanborn daughters, it's a book about mothers and daughters, right?
And so the thing,
have been aware of since I went through the book process was like I got my book dealbecause I'm considered the every woman right like uh white women are gonna buy this cool

(39:08):
and it's like part of my mission I think is getting white women to understand like it'snot niche if you go buy it it's not neat if we all go listen to it like it's not niche
right the lessons apply to everyone like it
And every, yeah, but that's what the every it's been there though, right?

(39:28):
But like the fact that someone can decide who is the every woman is the every woman.
What do you mean?
That's how I ended up, you know, listening.
What I was actually listening when I did my drive from Chicago to New Jersey, I actuallylistened to some of our episodes from early on.
didn't feel as, as anxiety provoking to me, but I guess there was some because it kept meup.

(39:49):
Like I was listen.
I was like, my God, who is she?
Anyway, but, there were some really good stuff in there.
I was like, oh, okay.
She's smart.
Um, but she talked funny.
She's got a lot to say, but the, I know.
Why am I talking about myself?
No, I mean, I had a kind of embarrassing realization recently where I was like, yeah, Ithought we were partners.

(40:13):
I thought we were co-hosts.
And now I realize like, you are the mentor.
You have been teaching me.
You knew that the whole time.
I, you know, like I had deconstructed so much less than I thought that I had, right?
I think.
so now it's like, it's like when you're an army lieutenant, you think you know what you'redoing.
And then by the time you were captain, you realize how little you knew and you realizeeveryone else in the room knew that you didn't know what you were doing.

(40:40):
You were the only one that thought that you knew what you were doing.
But it feels like that's like, like your why, you know, you, you're not supposed, you areheld from this for a reason.
There are things you tell me about cults and the literal, you know, like the confirmationand validation you can provide and the structure that's all whiteness and thank you for

(41:04):
bringing it.
You know, that's your, that's, know, the achiever, all that stuff.
You being like, all right, let's do it.
This wouldn't happen without that.
And it's realizing that in our cultures, there are things that are just more natural toit.
The people part of being Black is so integral, and people awareness, and the dynamicbetween people and understanding.

(41:28):
And my special interest is that.
I just didn't know that.
And the Black and white.
What is the difference between these two?
Hello, I was born.
And that's immediately what I started doing.
Because I like.
I didn't see a negative.
wasn't a, let me compare this side to this side to see which one is better.
I didn't get that element of whiteness, because I was Jewish over here, I was Jamaicanover here.

(41:52):
There was no anti-identity part of my upbringing, what I call the Christmas white.
And it's where it's just like, it's all about the actual thing in this externalorganization.
and I had, my dad had already left job as witness.
So I already had this understanding of cults and getting and coming out, but alsoaccepting that my grandmother was still in and she was there all the time.

(42:16):
And like, just worked around all of these things.
And I just was like, yeah, of course they did.
You know, my grandparents didn't want my parents to get married and they had decided, allright.
And they were great.
That was before I was born.
Part of my existence is people changing their minds, leaving a system of thought of goodand bad and being and love.
being the reason.

(42:38):
And I didn't realize how anti-cult that is until I got out here and everyone's smiling andlike miserable and smiling.
like, you know, it's just finding those things that are natural to us.
And I think it's more about uncovering who we actually are, that authentic self and going,she was fine.

(43:02):
She was okay.
That was actually great stuff.
what I, I would say like to me, the most heartbreaking part about writing my memoir waslike, have to like peel off all this armor and all these personalities that I picked up
and put on and then realizing like, I didn't need that in the first place, you know, likethere were these two moments where the real Daniela almost peeked out and she was great

(43:27):
and she's here now and she's fine.
um
And time continues.
And not seeing it as a waste or a loss.
But just so focusing on that girl who was there the whole time.
I saw one someone said to put a younger you on your lock screen.
And I've done that.
And she's really cute.
She's spunky.
She likes her juicy juice.
And my mom had me matching.

(43:49):
You my mom's got her own little stuff.
But it was like, it was cute.
And it's like a candid picture.
It's not.
is my never photographer.
So there's a lot of pictures that are, I can see it in my eyes.
I just want to go oh anywhere that isn't there.
But this one is just me being, right?
And it's realizing you don't have to go seek and find yourself because you're here.

(44:11):
No one else and no one else can tell you more than you can what you can do for this.
Now, like I mentioned a couple of it's know your revolutionary role.
I feel like is helpful.
it just in that it has these like labels and I feel like it's a, I needed stuff like this.
Oh, it sounds familiar to us.
Personality tests it, but it's not, you know, the educator, the creator, the agitator, thestoryteller.

(44:37):
It's all those things are valuable, but we are just taught that there are certain ways tobe valuable.
that's it.
Anger or sweetness.
Like you can either be sweet and work the sweet with your sweetness and your cute and youknow, or.
you can just barrel through or like nice and numb, right?
Those are, that's it.

(44:57):
You're just nice and numb.
And no, actually you were fine when you had all those feelings and you wanted attention,God forbid.
You're trying to draw attention to something, but the cult narrative of having anythingfor yourself, whether it be attention, a desire, a talent.
that one at me a lot, especially on live.

(45:18):
So like, you're just here trying to get attention.
Yes, yes, I'm literally here to get your attention, hoping that you'll listen to what Ihave to say.
Yes.
there's a difference between modesty and humility.
And I, I can't, was it Toni Morrison?
She said, can't remember.
Um, but she was saying like, yeah, that's the fundamental difference.
You're going to have tons of humility, but no modesty.

(45:40):
Modesty is something else.
Modesty is what they want you to have.
And like this fear of being seen, being virtuous, being smaller, smaller and smaller, tryto be as invisible as possible, as least burdensome as possible, rather than take up space
in the room.
Whoa, you want to be seen?
Yeah, but only like having humility says, but when you speak, it's purposeful.

(46:04):
You're not just talking.
You're not because you can, no, because you feel the need to.
you know, I think, so it's so interesting with like narcissism, right?
Like we use that only as a bad word, right?
Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy, that's the dark tryout of personality.

(46:25):
But like, you need narcissism.
Without narcissism, you never understand that you are a separate person from your mother.
Right?
you have to, narcissism is how we know we are unique individuals.
Right?
And this is why part of the delayed adolescence, if you didn't get to be narcissistic andself-centered as a toddler and as a teenager, you're gonna have to do it as an adult.

(46:54):
You know?
And I can look back at the years that I was like, no, I'm gonna tell my story.
I'm gonna tell my story.
I'm gonna tell my story.
And yeah, I could see that I was exhaustingly narcissistic to
people around me, like that's how it came off, but it was like I had to.
You can't just skip over phases of development, right?

(47:14):
But then the other thing is like, look, anyone who puts themselves in front of amicrophone, right?
We have higher levels of narcissism than other people, right?
Like I like being the center of attention.
I enjoy being on a stage.
Part of that is because it's fun to have people look at you.
Part of that is because I like making people laugh and clap, you know?

(47:37):
um
we grew up doing those things and we were rewarded for those things.
Yeah.
And if you were neurodivergent or in a high control group, that might have been the onlytime you were allowed to be yourself was getting up on a stage.
But it's like, again, I've been this person, right?

(47:58):
There is a picture of me, three years old in Japan, right?
And the two and three year olds were all supposed to come out and perform in front of 250people in our largest commune.
And literally,
they're all hiding because they're two and three and I'm just out there.
Like I literally came out and sang almost the whole show by myself.

(48:21):
They got out there at the end.
But it was like that.
I wasn't because I was being controlled all the time and made to shut up and be quiet andbeing hip for that loud.
And now you're telling me I can just go on a stage and scream at the top of my lungs.
Amazing.
And it's like that was there and I used to pretend in my room in the mirror and I don'tknow what I was doing but I felt like one day I'd maybe have something to say and it would

(48:47):
never be just for nothing and you realize where intention sits, right?
Like I have never been a social media person.
but I've always been a special interest person.
And when I like something and I'm finding something interesting, I want to talk about itwith people who I feel like will want to hear it, you know, sharing is caring.
And I like sharing the things, like even like reposting online.

(49:10):
uh I had one of my mutuals make a video that I just watched so many times for some reason.
uh Cause he, it made a video.
I thought it was interesting.
I reposted it.
Cause I just think I like sharing things that are interesting, but he made a video sayingwith that decision.
you know, my video is going from doing well to really do it like hitting places.

(49:32):
And that really impacts me.
he just, you know, made a video to shout out me for doing that.
It's like, that's nothing I could do.
This takes me nothing, but it's apparently, you know, people are skimpy and they're like,well, I have, especially with the more followers they have.
And apparently this person who used me as having like a big account and like big, don'tfeel, I feel the same, but you know.

(49:53):
And that was natural to me, but it did something great.
Like it can feel like that.
It doesn't have to feel arduous.
When we come from this culty background of like virtue of suffering, we expect the rightthing to do to be painful and talking about these things to be painful.
like how we started with, you know, I'm going to start buying from black people and thefirst, and you know, your first concern is what bad stuff is going to happen as a result.

(50:17):
And that's kind of like, what?
What you mean?
Have you all ever been around black people?
What is happening?
In what world do you think, know how it's very like white chest, I don't know what it is,but it's very white woman centered to think.
It's almost like when white women just like jump in the middle and start dancing andthey're like, they've seen it in the movies or something and they think we're about to,

(50:45):
and sometimes we will get on, know, okay.
But sometimes it's like,
Alright, you really thought you ate like you think you're doing as well as everybody else?
That's funny.
I don't know, you know, there's different levels of it, but no matter what, you're fine.
I'm just laughing because this weekend at bowling a 10 year old black girl told my whitehusband to stop dancing because he was embarrassing everybody.

(51:10):
See, listen, she was helping.
I don't know, like she, you know what I mean?
Like, in community, if someone's gonna tell you about something, it's, you're welcome.
Like, what do you even mean?
yeah, it was fine.
It was in love.
It was funny.
was...
what the community is going to interact with you is that scary?
Then please don't buy it.

(51:31):
Like also don't buy it if you're scared.
That's weird.
I don't think you're ready because, also your money isn't okay.
Yes, money is something, but that's really not what people are.
That's not going to change the state of the world.
You know.
the most afraid of, I think is kind of like, like tokenizing, but in the opposite way.

(51:56):
You know, like I have realized that I know so little about black people and black cultureand black women and that they know so much more than I do about the entire American
experience that I almost feel like I'm guilty of kind of like being a bit worshipful.
And that.
also feels token, you know, so I'm just trying to navigate that also, right?

(52:20):
Because I literally, I literally feel right now like anything you don't understand, go aska black woman, right?
And like, I was sad about having to give up country music.
And then I was like, black women write country music, I'm just gonna listen to that.
And it's been great.
Um, but like, yeah, yeah, but but that's what I mean.

(52:41):
I'm just like, so in that
Me too.
of like learning so much.
And I just, I'm just like conscious of being new, I guess, know, being new.
but you're not, still keep, just make sure, you know, it's humanized.
It's not like saying any black woman who says anything ever is just like, you know, like,I don't like black queen and stuff.

(53:05):
That queen's, you know, I get it, it's fine.
If black people say it, obviously you leave it alone.
I think that's, and you understand boundaries as a concept and that if you hit one andsomeone says,
You just listen to that.
That's literally, that's it.
We do it to each other.
And when you're in the black community, we'd be fighting, but we're never, not never, butoften it's not really fighting.

(53:31):
You know, it's, it's conversing.
just be loud, you know, and it sounds like fighting.
Maybe that's what white people are scared of.
They hear us and we're loud.
We're actually just speaking when you're, when you never want to be heard in the firstplace, no matter what, you'll always be too loud.
When they don't want to hear you, your voice will always be too loud.
So like get over it, you know?

(53:54):
Yeah.
I think, I feel like someone's, you know, I, I've heard it before, but it's, it's justrealizing people do want also, um, if you can't ask questions, it's a cult.
And I didn't realize when I said that, that people, it's like another one of those thingsthat people are really, it's another Amelia Bedelia thing where I'm like, duh guys.
I want to just do more maybe of that, just the black sheep.

(54:16):
It's like, what do you, yeah, they're just black sheep, here, white people and your, youknow, the whole navigation of why y'all hate them so much.
They're just black.
very good analogy.
know, and it's, and so many white people came into it realizing, oh my goodness, you'reright.
Like it didn't being a redheaded stepchild.

(54:39):
That's just the person you guys, like, I'm not sure, but it's the, it's, you know, thatand the rock, the boat.
I say if a boat can't rock, it's not safe.
You know, I think it's at the bottom of whatever type of water you're in.
You need to get out.
Joe, you know, can you swim?

(55:00):
Get a lifeboat, something.
You got to start looking for ways out.
If they say don't rock the boat, you got to go.
Because that's not a boat or something.
They're lying.
uh But it's, it's sometimes like the answers are so simple.
Just like when I said, why am I talking?
That weight video I made, I'm like, this is what y'all wanted?
This is, but it's what you need.

(55:22):
Like I didn't realize how.
You know, I thought we were going to start conversations here, but that's my privilege ina way, right?
To think they are ready to listen.
Is that a privilege?
I don't understand.
But like, I really thought when white women were like, black squares, we are ready tolisten and learn that they were in fact, ready to listen and learn.

(55:43):
But they were more like, Hey, this is what I feel.
constantly surprised by that too though.
I, and maybe it's the autism and maybe it's the cult thing.
Like I'm gonna write, like.
didn't realize you were lying when you said Netflix and chill, but we're all supposed tojust know that that means actually this other harmful thing.

(56:04):
I mean, maybe not whatever, you know what I mean?
yeah, I mean, I think that's like that.
what I'm trying to say is I have also believed that white women want to learn.
there are some, I've found many of them, but there are so many more that constantlysurprise me.

(56:30):
And I think it's because you realize, right?
Like, yeah, if you start rocking the boat, they might throw you out, right?
Yeah.
But there's so many more, I think, of us that wouldn't do it, but we're just, you know,and again, I'm going to bring up the Mormon wives thing is because you really see group
dynamics play out in the group of friends.

(56:52):
Mom talk.
It's this group.
It's this, are you in, are you out?
Depending on where we all stand majority rules.
I need us to ask what?
Rules, majority rules.
And we're just all like, yep, there's one person and now every decision, we should bedoing rank choice voting a lot earlier in life.

(57:15):
But we went majority rules, that's just a phrase we use.
We don't even know what it means when we use it sometimes.
voting for everything.
they are, they're voting amongst each other, but there's so many, you need alliances,right?
If you have an alliance, you are much safer off.
But then what if that alliance says, got your back and then they don't got your back.
Do you guys know that's not how friends work?
And this is white womanhood.

(57:37):
That's why you're so scared of us because you were taught that this is, this isfriendship.
So you think if we're scary, like it's gotta be so I'm just going to tell you if you havea book, like we're not going to do this anonymous truth telling.
We all submit this thing about another girl and no one knows who wrote it.
That is so scary.

(57:59):
And they're all smiling and they're doing it for you and the friendship and for the goodof mom talk.
Mormonism, just replace it with whatever bigger goal.
just think, you know, and it's not technically wrong because I didn't do anything wrongand wrong and I didn't do anything wrong.
There's something about rules and the wrongness and whiteness, know, thatself-righteousness about the rules and who's wrong and just don't be that.

(58:25):
And as long as you're not bad, good enough.
but that doesn't mean you are a good person.
Just not being a bad person is enough.
So you can be one of the silent ones on the side who technically agrees with the personbeing attacked, but thank God it's not me.
And they're just like, I love it.
I love it because it's not me.
Now you love it.

(58:46):
When if it were you, you would be feeling traumatized.
It's something you're going to talk about for three years, but like when it's not you,it's great.
That comes from some sadistic stuff.
But when you go into relationship with all of that as the expectation and there's all thesmiling and loving and glamour and conformity and consensus, and we all agree, I've heard

(59:10):
that a little lot with the white women too, and we all feel this way, stand up, just talkfor yourself, borrowed outrage, BL, you got it.
And I think white women do this a lot, because you work up, you know.
and you like, will give your outrage to someone else and like pass it along and don't youagree, don't you agree?
And now this person has to, especially if they're autistic, they'll be like, I, yeah.

(59:32):
And now you feel like you have to.
Have you seen Trevor Noah's, I think it's his most recent standup special?
And he says, because people say like, this is like the top five things for white people.
And he's like, no, no, no, I'm gonna tell you the top five things for white people.
um The first one is museums.
ah All of them you would agree with, of course.

(59:54):
I don't remember the second one.
The third one is being flabbergasted.
Bye.
And then I don't remember the fourth one, but, or the other way around, right?
And then the top one is Sweet Caroline.
Oh, I learned so much about that.
It's done, he does it so well, it's so good.
um

(01:00:14):
yeah, yeah.
It's, mm.
And it is the outrage, right?
Like it literally, white people love to be flabbergasted.
be like, who would do?
Right, well that's why you can't have pedophilia in a book because people will beflabbergasted.
because it's gonna make them upset.

(01:00:35):
Because I had to realize.
makes people upset?
Being a victim of a pedophile.
time I shared my story, right?
Like it's in uncultured, I write it down and I'm walking to bring it to my boss.
And like the only feeling I felt was guilt.
Cause this man has four daughters and I'm about to ruin his life.

(01:00:56):
And you know, I had to realize that it's okay for adults to feel uncomfortable.
And like it's not six year old Daniella's responsibility to protect grown adults fromwhat.
grown adults do to six-year-old Danielas.
He didn't care about ruining your, and I think we should challenge the ruining people'slife thing, because cops love that.

(01:01:19):
Your life is over, ruining your life, your life is over.
That's some white people stuff.
People found out what you did.
You have a terrible reputation.
That life you lived of people not knowing you is over.
Okay, I don't think, that gives new beginning.
You're gonna have to start all over.
This weird time travel stuff white people like to do where they get to just be like,rebrand.

(01:01:40):
You
now.
I'm religious, actually.
I'm romantic.
I'm one of the unfair retails, you know, because my life was so hard.
Here's my traumatic response.
I'm now this guy.
I'm Brother Love.
not privileged, I was poor.
Right.
I have struggled before.
Okay.
What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

(01:02:02):
There's reasons.
Reasons aren't anything.
That's just information.
True, but useless.
Now what?
You know, like people are so, that's such a white thing, right?
Because it's an anti-identity you're looking for is to not be bad.
The second people find out about what you really are.
And if that's true, we should know.

(01:02:23):
I care more about people knowing than your life being ruined.
What does that even mean?
It's like a movie being spoiled.
I'm sorry, what?
My bad.
I have a personal preference on spoilers.
I like to know what's gonna happen.
I think, yeah, I like a pre-cap, I call them.
I think it's-
the end of the book first so that then I know what's coming and I pay more attention todetail, you know?

(01:02:50):
I wanna know Beth dies.
And how you do it is gonna be the interesting part.
I want to know.
You don't get to decide, well, okay, if it's your art and that's how you wanna show it,okay, there's some room for that.
But just this obvious, like, this is how, I don't know, maybe I got, you know, that's alittle bit of me.

(01:03:11):
one way to read a book, that's for sure.
Yeah, right.
Not ruined.
be.
You have the ability to ruin someone else's life is not true.
They, I mean, in a way, but not really.
They keep going.
as the author of a book, if you read the end of my book first and then you go back andread the whole thing, you just read it twice, yay, great.

(01:03:37):
Like you spend more time with my book, I'm not upset by that.
Like, yeah.
more accessible or just, yeah, there's just a lot of rules, but then putting those rulesin with the actual real humanity rules, like don't kill people and then putting in also
don't cross the street where there isn't lines in the road.
Like you're messing everything up and everyone goes to the same place and it just dependson how long you're going to be there.

(01:04:03):
This is the worst timeout situation we've ever come up with.
The torturous timeout.
detention center.
It's a school.
Like they didn't come up with anything good.
And we're just like, well, let's ask them if they can change that rule so that it can freeus from the rule system.
I get it.

(01:04:23):
I understand.
It's like going to the elders of the church to be like, can you guys make it not apatriarchy here?
What do you, right?
You are the answer.
I think there's, I feel like Kimberly, uh not Kimberly Crenshaw, Kimberly Jones, How WeCan Win is a good book too to recommend because it's nice and easy.

(01:04:45):
She makes it in like nine things.
This is how you, and healing is always the first thing black women tell people to do.
And no one listens.
They instead go, okay, yeah, but after I do that,
I've literally had people in my comments be like, okay, I hear you, after we listen, whatdo we do?
That's what white women need to work on.
Right.

(01:05:06):
White women need to like, that's what white women could start doing.
It's like a white woman, active, listening, pre-rec.
And it's mostly just the show is just like how many things I had to come up with just toget white women to pause.
And I guess that's like part of that, you know, the sacred assumption that you arecorrect, that you are white.

(01:05:33):
You know, just inherently because you feel strongly.
That's cult thinking.
I'm so sad, I'm so heartbroken, I'm so this, I'm scared if I do and that's okay.
We're not in a cult.
Black women are not notoriously culty.
We're not going to do nothing to you.
Like what's the worst thing you've seen happen?

(01:05:56):
I just think it's like playing out some of this, but also realize when you tell blackwomen how afraid you are.
to offend them?
It's kind of.
What are you saying that's offensive?
What do you you might be offending me with that sentiment?
Because have I been scared like I'm just chilling here and now you're telling me I'msomething to be afraid of.

(01:06:16):
I haven't left my apartment.
I don't like I'm focused on me like black women have their own mental health and andscared of you.
You're not even thinking about the fact that you're the danger and you feeling and like.
Us saying something to you?
Not likely, because imagine.
Imagine something we would say that what your reaction would be.

(01:06:38):
No, no.
And you know, like speaking of black women's mental health, we've talked about this beforethat like black women have one of the lowest suicide rates in the country, including in
the military.
So we are watching, I think this is a cute story you'll tell me.
So we are watching Blues Brothers, um which is obviously satirical, but anyways, they'reat black church.

(01:07:01):
And my kid is like, why is everybody black?
And so we explained, you know, black church and white church and her thing was like, thatseems fun, right?
And of course it's exaggerated, right?
But I was here watching it as someone that doesn't have a bone of spirituality in my bodyand my mind hasn't changed on that.

(01:07:23):
But I was like, I don't think this God that they're singing to is real.
I don't think the spiritual stuff, but that community, that's real.
how good they feel dancing with each other, that's real.
How they can depend on each other, how they can just have fun, the way you feel whenyou're just chanting and jumping and not caring how people are looking at you, like,

(01:07:46):
that's real.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It isn't being used as a weapon, right?
So, you know, tools aren't always, like you said, a hammer can be used to hurt person orit could be used to set up a shelter, right?
And if you have a limited ability of ways to even communicate with people and this isacceptable and why people leave you alone here, you gonna go there, right?

(01:08:16):
I haven't been to temple uh maybe ever as a Jewish person, but I went to church a fewtimes when I was dating someone who was Christian.
I went because it was like, I like this music.
But my mom also, I learned about Kirk Franklin from my mom.
My mom just enjoys good music.
As a Jewish lady, had Mary, Mary, we had these gospel singers, mainstream gospel justplaying in the house because she just thought it was great.

(01:08:38):
It's not, it's how cultible also are you as a person when you're in community?
That's what has to be addressed.
White women's desperation for rightness and like the right thing to do and the wrong andavoidance of a bad and realizing you're fine.
Like you've actually been fine the whole time.

(01:08:58):
If anybody needs to be worried, it's not you.
You're okay.
But this, the crying isn't necessarily straight.
Like it is manipulative, but it's you, like you are manipulated.
You know, it turns you into a crier or a liar.
and it's to yourself.
And I mean, one of the things I almost have as like a mantra for deconstructing whitenessnow from you is just like we were human the whole time too, right?

(01:09:28):
And like we were dehumanized for this idea of whiteness and this idea of perfection andlike literally cults use perfection because everyone's gonna fail at it, right?
Like if you're depending on perfection for a community or a group, like
everyone's gonna fail at that.
And this is why, you know, I've been using the Black Panthers as an example of a non-cult,right?

(01:09:54):
And people, I'm like, that wasn't a cult, that was a movement.
That's not to say that people, individuals weren't hurt by the group, because groups arestronger than individuals, and sometimes individuals might get hurt, but it's like the
intention, right?
Underneath it.
That's why that's why they formed, you know?

(01:10:16):
So it's like, it's not like if they weren't.
Because if I say something's not a cult, some individual is going to come up and be like,they hurt me, you know?
And it's like, well, that could happen in any group.
But it's not about control and perfection and.
of a group, right?
Like if you believe in a group more than you believe in yourself, you are setting yourselfup to be betrayed in some sense and hurt uh because that group doesn't know you.

(01:10:47):
It's not a thing.
And actually one of the things I've been telling people the most lately is how do youprotect yourself from a cult?
Like respect your time and your labor, right?
Respect your own time and your own labor.
Stop dedicating your whole life to one thing.
Stop giving 110%.
110 % is not even a real number.
a thing.
Like how we went from a hundred to 110.

(01:11:08):
And now if you say 110, but you see what happens and that's what happened with money.
That's what happens with money.
That's what happens with rules.
Anything that is a tool of a system, because the system isn't real, the tools aren't real,right?
But they are used against you.
Whether it's real or not, you scream fire in a building and there is no fire.
has real consequences.
So like, that's what we deal with.

(01:11:31):
Is that we don't go back to say, technically was there, it was smoke and there's thatfire.
Is it worth saying who said it?
Okay.
You're wasting our time.
People are hurt.
Now what are we doing?
You know, but there's just so much focus on the right.
How should it have been handled?
And there's too much future and past.
You're anxious and you're worried about what someone will say if you buy this thing andthey confront you.

(01:11:54):
And then what will you say?
my goodness.
of not being perfect.
And that's, I think, really gonna be helpful to me.
And I'm gonna think about this a lot.
And we probably got a wrap up for today.
Yeah, the fear of perfection.
I mean, I really think, or the fear of not being perfect, right?

(01:12:15):
Like that's the thing.
like, you know, to talk about fairy tales, like I've been calling myself
your fairy threat mother, I'm like, that's what you're afraid of?
Okay, boom, it happened.
Now what do you do?
And it's like, you're scared of not being perfect?
You're not perfect.

(01:12:36):
Spoiler alert, you're not perfect.
you can only get 100 % if you're being tested.
And you can only be tested by some other thing, right?
100%, we were given those things.
We were said, hey, if you get all of this right, you get 100%.
Here's your reward, here's your thing.
That's a trauma bond.

(01:12:56):
Also, like, you stress and you gotta get 100.
You spend overnight, you cram, you do, do, 100, woo!
Right back to the next thing.
You know, so relieve yourself of that.
But we, some of us, especially, feel like if we are neurodivergent, if we were gifted andtalented, desire for achieving a perfect anything, you have to kind of call the bluff on

(01:13:18):
it and be like, Oh, it wasn't real.
Sorry.
like every time I hear of a child getting a perfect attendance award, I'm like, damn, youhad to go to school sick.
m
best case, worst case, I'm not understanding.
And the superlatives, I don't like those either, actually.

(01:13:40):
Most, best smile, best dress.
Why do white people, white people take everything and turn it into a competition?
Dance, you ruined it.
They turn it into numbers.
Anyway.
Oh, thank you all so much for listening.
Rebecca, thanks for teaching and being so open to questions and being so patient as youwalk us through stuff that we already definitely should know.

(01:14:05):
We're on a journey together.
What you gonna do?
I'm just trying to keep us something.
I was gonna say safe, you know, I'm sure safe as face as I can anyway.
Yes ma'am.
Everybody please go follow Rebecca on her Patreon, White Woman Whisperer.
She puts out really, really good stuff.
She's gonna have a little section in Culting of America coming January 20th.

(01:14:30):
And thank you so much for being here.
Like and subscribe and tell your friends.
C'est la fin!