July 16, 2025 • 56 mins
Conservation is about collaboration, and collaboration is what we are discussing today.
Ocean collaboration is at the heart of many conservation success stories, but what happens when it breaks down? In this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast, host Andrew Lewin talks with Bart Oor, the founder of Balean, a platform created to support independent ocean conservationists by giving them the funding, structure, and digital tools to succeed. They dive into the barriers many changemakers face when working outside of traditional institutional channels and how a lack of communication and community support often holds back ocean progress.
Balean’s mission is to foster a decentralized, human-centered support network for ocean missions. Bart shares how his background in engineering led him to build Balean as a solution to the gaps he witnessed in ocean collaboration. This episode also reflects on Andrew and Bart’s own partnership and how aligned values and open communication can shape stronger ocean solutions. Whether you’re an early-career marine conservationist or a funder looking to empower grassroots initiatives, this conversation is a powerful call to action.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There is a collaboration problem within
There is a collaboration problem within
the ocean conservation
field, and we're going
to talk about it on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
We have Bart Orr, who is the new founder
of Balian, which is a
platform that helps individuals
individuals that have ocean missions,
that have ocean missions, have that
support and get that funding to push
their ocean missions
push their ocean missions even further
(00:20):
even further and get to that next level.
We're going to talk about how this
We're going to talk about how this
founding came, how Balian
came to be, how he went from
he went from an engineer to a founder of
an engineer to a founder of an ocean
conservation organization.
We're going to talk about how our
We're going to talk about how our
collaboration has been so
helpful and what makes a good
what makes a good collaboration for ocean
collaboration for ocean
conservation on this episode.
(00:40):
Let's start the show.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
This is the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the
ocean, how you can speak
up for the ocean, and what you can do to
live for a better ocean by taking action.
better ocean by taking action.
On today's episode, we're going to be
On today's episode, we're going to be
talking about
collaboration and what the problems are
in collaboration in today's ocean
(01:01):
conservation field and how
to solve that, especially in
this creator economy that we talk about.
We're seeing a lot more and I'm seeing a
We're seeing a lot more, and I'm seeing a
lot more individuals
come up with ideas of
how to protect the ocean, how to make the
ocean more sustainable, how to get people
involved in making the ocean protected
and conserved and more
sustainable and just helping
(01:22):
out the planet in general.
But there's a lot of problems with that
because you're individual.
You don't have necessarily a huge
platform like some of the
larger organizations do.
And a lot of the times you get left out
And a lot of the times you get left out
of the funding because
you're not part of a large
organization, which makes it
really hard to collaborate.
really hard to collaborate.
So we're going to talk about
So we're going to talk about
collaborations in this episode.
We're going to talk a lot of things and
I'm going to introduce my
guests in just a second.
(01:43):
But before we do, if you are interested
in protecting the
ocean, I want you to consider
consider joining the undertow.
joining the undertow.
The undertow is a platform, another
The undertow is a platform, another
platform where you can be
part of a community where
not only are you going to be able to
support wave makers, but
you can also be guided to
taking ocean action, whether it be
through buying specific
products that we vet to make
sure that they're good for you or that
(02:04):
you're just talking about
the ocean in general and
learning more about the ocean.
And learning more about the ocean.
No algorithms from a
No algorithms from a
social media platform.
social media platform.
This is all ocean all the time.
This is all ocean all the time.
Go to speak up for blue.com forward slash
join the undertow that
speak up for blue.com
blue dot com forward slash join the
forward slash join the
undertow to get access to that.
Now to introduce my guest today, we have
Bart Orr, who is one of
(02:25):
the founders of Balian
Balian and Balian dot org is the website.
and Balian.org is the website.
So you can go there to get more
information and contact them
and I'll put it in the show
notes, but Bart and I have been talking a
number of times recently.
of times recently, as soon as we met, we
As soon as we met, we met through a
friend of ours, Natalie
Gilson, who is a communications
Gilson, who is a communications person,
person who works for Pisces management.
management and she's amazing.
And she's amazing.
And I've been able to meet a number of
different people
through these collaborations.
(02:46):
collaborations and we decided to
And we decided to collaborate on through
some podcasting and to
be able to talk about
Balian to be able to talk about what
makes a good collaboration
and how to elevate individuals
individuals who want to work within the
who want to work within the ocean
conservation field may not have that
traditional background
that traditional background of ocean
of ocean science or being a marine
biologist, ocean
conservationists, but want to help out
out regardless and have various creative
regardless and have various creative ways
(03:08):
of doing so, whether
it be through business,
whether it be through art, whether it be
through a number of
different avenues, science, and
we don't want to be able to
get them to the next level.
And so Balian is one of those platforms
that's working to do that.
And it's a great platform and it's going
And it's a great platform and it's going
to become a bigger platform as it grows.
So I want to have Bart on to talk about what makes a good collaboration.
So I want to have Bart on to talk about
what makes a good collaboration.
So we talk about the current problems and
So we talk about the current problems and
(03:29):
some of the solutions
that we suggest throughout
this collaboration.
So if you're an individual who's looking
to up their game in
terms of ocean conservation,
conservation, this is
this is the episode for you.
the episode for you.
And if you're an individual who's
And if you're an individual who's
struggling with
collaborations in the past, this might
be good for you to be able to listen to.
you to be able to listen to.
So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy
and I'll talk to you after.
Hey, Bart, welcome to the how
(03:50):
to protect the ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk about collaboration
in ocean conservation?
Yes, sir. Yes, I am. Yeah.
Let's collaborate, right?
Absolutely. This is a collaboration which
we'll find out more
about in a few minutes.
And Bart and I, we've met through a good
friend of ours, Natalie Gilson, and we've
(04:10):
So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy.
been kind of talking on and off for a bit
for the over the last couple of months,
working together, discussing ocean
conservation and what's needed.
And we're going to talk about your
platform, Baliin, and we're going to talk
about you and everything that has to go
with collaboration and ocean
conservation, because that's something
that one is an important thing to do to
(04:31):
get projects moving
forward to get action done.
We see collaboration on all different
levels from government level all the way
to individual level.
And so we want to talk about some of the
problems that we've seen and how to get
those solutions going
to solve those problems.
So we're going to talk about a lot of
things. And to be honest, Bart, I have a
feeling this is going to be the beginning
(04:52):
of a long conversation that's going to
happen over a number of episodes.
So I'm already inviting you back because
I know this is going to be a lot of fun.
But this is it's going to be like a
conversation and less of an interview,
but more of a conversation.
And I can't wait to get into it. But
before we do, Bart, why don't you just
let us know who you are and what you do?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Wow. And then we still
need to start, right? And already paving
(05:13):
the road for the next steps.
Yeah, look, Bart Orr, I am Bart training.
I'm a mechanical engineer. I have my
business background. And but I'm
absolutely intrigued by
sustainability in general.
And a couple of years back, I got into
this thing called ocean and ocean
conservation, ocean sustainability. And
(05:34):
that's where things took off. And I found
out I have a new career.
Almost like a new purpose, right?
Yeah, so what what is important to me is
that if you consider how we look at the
earth and how we how we deal and live our
(05:55):
everyday life, I became absolutely
fascinated by the fact how how this the
largest ecosystem on the planet is has
always been there for millions of years.
And it's keeping it's it's it's still
there. It's taking care of us. And we are
barely aware of that, right? As humanity.
And that's that's thought about, okay,
(06:17):
there's this big thing, keeping us alive.
While we barely know.
That's fascinating. So let's explore
that, right? And that's where my journey
started. There's also one of the reasons
why I decided, okay, let's let's go for
it. And this is going to be my new
purpose, my new future. And hence, here's
value. And suddenly, I'm an ocean
(06:38):
entrepreneur. No, with my co founder.
Yeah, well, I love I love that. I love
that aspect. And, you know, coming from
an engineering background, like why has
sustainability always been such a play
such a big role? You know, a lot of
engineers, you can engineer is such a
such a just like ocean conservation,
ocean science, there's such a it's such a
(06:59):
huge field, you can specialize in a lot
of different aspects of it, from oil and
gas all the way to creating, you know,
the smallest of instruments that go into
microchips that are microchips that go into computers that are
power some of the largest facilities in
the world. So this is such a broad
subject matter. But sustainability,
although it is a niche kind of area
(07:22):
within within engineering and sort of
within the scope. How did you like where
did that interest come from? And how have
you been using that throughout your
career? Yeah, well, for me, it's actually
pretty simple. It starts with awareness
for myself. I've been
creating, I think, a lot of people are
probably mostly consumer products or
(07:43):
tools and equipment and mechanical stuff.
And when you do that, you start to
realize, okay, yeah, let's let's make it
a bit better. Let's make it a better
product or how to make it more
sustainable and with a smaller footprint.
But after a while, you start to realize,
okay, it's still, well, still shit that
(08:03):
I'm putting into this new world, right?
And there's already so much so I became
fascinated about how can I lower my
footprint, but you cannot go below zero,
right? Still a challenge, still a
challenge. But if you get to zero, I
started wondering, is there a possibility
how you can make a positive impact,
(08:24):
which, which, well, maybe not with stuff,
but with things, the things that I want
to do. And that's, that's idea that kept
me alive. And also awake
in the evenings, right?
But it was really there. And I started
exploring things like, okay, seaweed,
super interesting, right? There's a big,
(08:44):
big potential in how seaweed is a
sustainable source of food and
livelihoods of people and while in the
ocean, it also does a great job in
biodiversity. So that's interesting. So
let's, let's, let's go there. And, and
just concepts like these,
that's, that's, that's, that's the
that triggered me. And what can I do,
(09:06):
right? How can me and how can I
contribute to that? How can my thoughts,
my, well, if I have them, how can all my
skills, how can all my skills contribute
to this bigger picture? And how can I
create something that is bigger than me
alone? And that's where collaboration
starts. There is one of the things that I
(09:29):
noticed, when I explored
this, this concept of seaweed,
and ocean conservation and the
combination of the two. What really,
really intrigued me is, this is a new
world. This is a new type of new sector
where people treat each other in a
different way. Everybody is in there with
(09:50):
a purpose, they're not there for money,
right? These people, they are truly
motivated, they are really there to make
an impact on their own way. And this,
this leverages this
different type of collaboration.
Different type of collaboration that you
would normally see in normally in my
world, from the industry, right? Where
(10:11):
it's all about, this is mine, this is
yours. And let's keep it like this. No,
it's way different, different mindset.
And that was something like, okay, here,
we can do something here, we can build
bridges. And this is, this is my type of
people I want to work
with. That's where it started.
I love it. I love it. And so like, when
(10:33):
you did engineering, what were you
working in? What aspect of engineering
were you working in?
Mostly consumer goods and production. I
did some things in bicycles, I did some
things in machine industry, construction,
medical tools, a whole bunch of things.
But when you're a mechanical engineer,
(10:54):
after a while, it doesn't matter anymore,
whether you build roller coasters or, or,
Coca Cola bottles, right? It doesn't
matter. It's just material. And I wanted
to do something like imagine with a
positive impact. And yeah, I believe my
mindset still is an engineer. Yeah, I
still think like that. And that's also
(11:15):
what I did when, when you zoom out and
you see the earth from space. I don't see
just this bowl, this, this bowl or this
floating swear, it's more like,
this is an ecosystem. This is a total
system that works. It's completely
closed. What happens there? And is this
ecosystem thoughts? How does it stay
(11:36):
alive? How does it
work? That's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I think I think it
is interesting, especially, you know,
working with consumer goods all the time,
you see, like, you're like, Oh, I want
this to be more like, I'd like this to be
more sustainable. And, you know, but
you're stuck in this sort of like a cog
in the wheel of, you know, the business
aspect and what, you know, marketing and
(11:57):
what, what works for people, what people
will use. And I mean, you know, changing
human behavior is very difficult. But,
but you can do that when you create
products. And I can see where that
sustainability really
comes in, like that.
Oh, yeah. Process, like how do we make
this a lot more sustainable? And, and I
love that aspect as well. So that's cool.
And so where was that shift, like that
(12:19):
predominant shift over the last little
bit where you're just like, you know
what, you know, I want to really have my
mark on, on, on the oceans and on ocean
conservation. So where, where did, can
you pinpoint that one moment where you're
like, okay, I'm making a, I'm making a
big shift because that's a
big change in your career.
Yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, and that's
(12:40):
quite unfortunate. I don't have, let's
say this single moment where it's okay
from tomorrow onwards, I'm going to do
everything different. It was like a
gradual shift. You get some, you're
interested in something, you learn more,
I had some conversations with a marine
biologist, I remember very clearly. And
she told me about how, how just whales,
(13:02):
how they contribute to CO2 uptake, and how they contribute to the world.
And I was like, okay, and this is just
whales. Tell me more, right? What, what's
the more you talk, the more you speak
with experts, the more you start reading,
you start listening to podcasts, you
learn, you watch documentaries, and
(13:23):
whether they are on national geographic
or Netflix, whatever.
And you start to search for information
and you want to know more and yeah, this
fascination that's unstoppable. And for
me, it became like a new passion. I
wasn't like this 10 years ago, but now
(13:44):
there's so much we need to do.
And this is the beauty. There's also so
much we can do. And that was different.
There's a lot of documentaries, like I
mentioned, or talks that you have about
people saying that this is not good.
It's, we have a problem and things are
not going in the right direction. And
(14:06):
they are right. There are problems.
But what triggers me and maybe this is
the engineer taking over, I see
opportunities, right? Consider this
example of these wheels, right? There's
now roughly 20% of the original wheel
population still left. And they take the
wheel activity that they only have like,
(14:30):
they already have four ways of carbon
sequestering four ways and
and their wheel activity is like 1% of
global carbon uptake with their activity
alone. Imagine we just restored back to
original populations. Yeah, then you go
from one to 5%. That's big, right?
(14:51):
That's a big difference. And
a lot of big animals around.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it was like that.
So it's just a matter of, okay, we bring
it back to how it was. And we save what
we had, we save ourselves, right? So for
me, it's more about the potential and how
we can leverage that rather than than how
(15:13):
all about how much of a threat we have.
And it is there, but I
see the opportunities.
Yeah, no, definitely. And so in comes,
you know, Balian, which you you co
founded. How did how did that all that
come about? Like where, you know, where
did that that vision come from? And then
(15:34):
how did you take that vision, you know,
from an engineering perspective, the
engineering mind and then bring about
being like, okay, like this is, yeah,
this is what we're gonna do.
And when you decide, okay, I want to do
something different. I want to do
something with the oceans, you start
thinking about, okay, where can I
contribute? Who should I told to? Hey,
(15:56):
I'm here, I want to help. And I started
noticing, okay, there's a lot of people
already doing amazing stuff. And I would
love to help them.
There is so much we can do.
Oh, these guys are doing coral reef
restoration. So here they are doing kelp
forest, a reef foresting. There's another
(16:16):
place where they work on well, you name
it, there's so much. But I noticed that,
okay, it's pretty challenging for a for a
non scientist like me, or someone who
doesn't come from conservation, or has
been a banker for 30 years or whatever,
and comes in with a lot of money. It's
(16:39):
very challenging to make this change to
this new sector. So I did some
volunteering, I talked to people, I did
my part in the best way I could. But
there was one thing that I noticed. And
this was this was also the
reason why I could not change.
It was not just a job change where you go
from one company to the other. I really
(17:00):
needed to change my mindset in and how
can I gradually make this change to a new
career to new purpose. And for me, the
trigger came into, okay, if there's one
problem that all these organizations, all
these people, and there are literally
10,000 of these organizations, millions
of people working on
ocean impact every day.
(17:20):
If there's one thing that's blocking
them, it is funding awareness,
visibility. Maybe I should do that,
right? If there is a big problem for all
these organizations, all these impact
organizations that I can remove, improve
and help them with, then I can make an
(17:44):
impact that is far
beyond who am I on my own.
And that's where Valian started.
Yeah, I love that. I think it's such a
hard thing to, it's a hard thing to
conceptualize right off the bat, right?
And then I think also, it's a hard thing
to try and say, like, who do you work
(18:05):
with at the beginning?
I mean, there's so many people that are
working within ocean conservation. It's
like, how do you support the people that,
you know, Valian's going to support?
And I think that's the challenge, which
we'll get into in a number of different
episodes here. Because I think, you know,
that's, I think that'll be the always the
question. And that's how we started to
(18:26):
get to talk as well, to share our
thoughts and share our ideas and where
you're working with some great people
like Natalie Gilson and stuff to get the
stories out and get Valian's story out,
including yours and Sanders.
And I think that's, I think it's, I think
it's really great. But, you know, the big
thing with with the mission of Valian is,
(18:47):
is, is collaboration. And that's what
we'll be talking about today.
And so for you when talking when thinking
about that mission, both of you, where
did collaboration, how did collaboration
become that much of a
key aspect in your mission?
Yeah, yeah. Well, it started actually
already with with my co founder, right?
(19:09):
We're neighbors, we're neighbors. So we
speak to each other already quite some
time. And, and then you I didn't, I
forgot that I didn't realize that you
guys were like
neighbors. That's hilarious.
Yeah, sometimes you search for for like
minded people all around the world. And
you speak to people that are literally on
the other side of the ocean. Hey, do you
want to work with me?
And right this idea.
(19:30):
But there's always something in the way,
right? I just got into a new job. Maybe
not. I just, I just got married. Don't
have the money, whatever. And then it
turns out, he was living on the other
side of the street, right?
Here's my neighbor Sonder.
So this was already where the
collaboration started. I started to
notice that if you just express your
(19:52):
passion, what you want to do, explain why
you want to do it. There are a lot of
people around you who have something
similar, maybe on a small
burner in the back of their head.
But a lot of people really want to make
an impact. And that's, that's something
that was also for us. We started from
scratch. This was super important. If you
(20:14):
speak with people and all openers and
transparency, and we don't do secrets.
There's no need for secrets. If you speak
about what you want to achieve, what you
can achieve, but you cannot do it alone.
We pretty quickly realize that this is
way bigger than just
two people, two founders.
There is so much we can do. And
collaboration in general, it should be
(20:36):
mutually beneficial, right? It cannot be
like, hey, thanks for helping me and
goodbye. No, it should always be like,
how can we help each other in such a way
that it doesn't only help me as a person
or as a business or organization?
How can we do it in such a way that it
also helps you and we found out that by
(20:57):
just posing this question, okay, well,
this is what we're doing. What are you
doing? Where's the overlap? There are so
many things possible
suddenly and doors open, right?
So instead of, like I mentioned before, a
simple job change, hey, here's my CV and
here you go. Now it really became a
transition into a different mindset,
(21:20):
which is all about collaborating
openness, mutual
beneficial collaboration that is.
And I think that's what I think collaboration is great. Now, how do you
like when you stepping into the ocean
(21:41):
conservation industry or the field,
you're coming in with a brand new lens in
your experience, how do you find
collaborations working within the
industry, not just with your own personal
things, but from people you've talked to
a lot of different people.
Yeah. How do you where do you get the
(22:03):
sense where collaboration is within
within the ocean conservation field?
Yeah, well, the first thing that I
noticed is that it's very interconnected,
right? You rarely find a person who is
only bound to one organization. They
typically do things
for this organization.
They also help there. And while doing
that, they have a hobby, which is also
(22:24):
related to ocean conservation in a way.
So it's very interconnected. And if you
speak to one, you automatically speak to
three, four or even five
people at the same time.
And so true. Yeah, it's a networking
became a very different way compared to
the traditional industry where I've been
(22:46):
in. It's very much on one on one contact.
And then maybe you can ask this, this,
this person to have me I do you also have
a colleague, or can you
let me speak to your manager?
It goes step by step ocean sector ocean
conservation and restoration. That's
different. If you notice there is a
(23:09):
shared passion. People will also say, Oh,
wow, that's great. I know what you need.
I know what you want to do. And you
should definitely talk to this guy. And
by the way, I just wrote him or her an
email. And it goes goes in a very
different way that this networking and collaboration is very different.
And I think that networking and
collaborative networking,
that that's super powerful.
(23:31):
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think
especially when you first start out and
you're starting to make these connections
and the networking becomes a big thing. I
mean, it worked for me too. From from
this podcast standpoint, when I started
interviewing people,
you know, back in 2014.
for this podcast,
which I launched in 2015,
I started to interview
(23:53):
people and then they'd be like,
at first, I knew a good
number of people within the field.
And so I started off
with them, of course,
and then they enjoyed it.
We had a good time talking and says,
oh, you know who you should interview?
You should interview this person.
They're working on such and such topic.
Oh, okay, cool, let's talk to that.
I remember I did an interview
(24:13):
on marine mammals and whales,
and I contacted one person
who I knew and I said, hey,
we did this interview and
at the end of the interview,
I started to ask a little bit about it
was one blackfish got released,
the documentary about Tilakum, the orca,
and the captive orca,
and changed the captive orca industry.
(24:35):
And I said, yeah, do you
know much about that movie
and what science went
in and stuff like that?
It looks like it's having a big impact.
He goes, oh no, you
should talk to my wife.
She's the orca biologist and
she did a lot of the science
and she checked the science for it.
So then I got to talk to her and that was
one of my biggest episodes to this date
on the podcast.
And it's interesting how once you show,
(24:58):
once you start to talk to people and show
what you're doing and they genuinely
understand what you're doing and feel the
love of what you're doing,
how they will pass it on and get you to
talk to other people to help you out.
And I think that takes a lot from
yourself to be able to
go and talk to people.
And I tell this to people who are looking
(25:19):
for jobs all the time in the industry.
I'm like the biggest thing
is start talking to people.
If you can't afford to go to a
conference, go on
LinkedIn, start messaging people,
start have one-on-one
coffees virtually with them.
There's so many ways you can
connect with people these days.
It makes it a lot easier
than when I was first starting.
But that networking
(25:39):
is really interesting.
I feel though when people start working
together or start
talking about working together,
that's when collaboration
really becomes important.
And I find that's where we really find
out where the problems
are in collaboration.
(26:00):
Have you come across, you don't have to
name any names or anything.
Have you come across instances where or
even heard of instances where
collaboration wasn't really working the
way you thought it would be working,
even between two different
organizations or whatever?
Yeah, well, we all have
our own stories, right?
And we met also through networking and
(26:21):
that was powerful, super nice.
And now we're suddenly talking to each
other in this podcast.
But of course, to me, there's a few
things that are important.
The first is timing. You need to speak to
someone who just happens to have the
right time and have this comparable
(26:43):
thought at the same time.
And sometimes you simply cannot convince
a person to do the same, right? It
doesn't always work like that.
I mentioned about this small thought in
the back of the mind of the people about
ocean conservation or
sustainability in general.
Some people just have a very small
burner. Others have a big fire.
(27:04):
And that needs to be a little bit of
coincidence. Sometimes you can feel it
like, ah, whoa, hold on.
I hear or you sense from a
person in a conversation.
And this goes very well
with a glass of beer in a cafe.
This person has this same sense of I can
do better. I can do more.
(27:24):
And that's the sweet spot, right? If you
know, oh, hey, hold on. What you're now
telling me, I
recognize what you're saying.
And I've been through that. I am going
through that at this very moment. And
then you want to you want
to explore this together.
We have shared passion. That's a sweet
spot. And of course, it also happens the
other way around, right?
(27:46):
If you have conversations with a friend,
even if they're they're very close to
you, it can sometimes
mean that this person
doesn't feel the connect or doesn't care
about it as much as you do.
Yeah, coincidence.
Yeah, professional. Yeah, sorry. Yeah,
please go ahead. No, go ahead. Go
(28:07):
continue. Continue. Go ahead. Yeah.
On a more professional level, I it can
also be sometimes like
internal priorities and
the industry in ocean conservation
restoration, it's a lot of small
initiatives, smaller individuals that
that's sometimes do this besides their
(28:27):
day to day job, right? Yes.
So much energy and compassion and passion
about what they want to achieve. And
these are the people have a really big
and open mind about Oh, yeah, sure.
We should they are truly motivated to to
make a change. Yeah, while bigger
organizations. Yeah, there it's it's for
(28:48):
for some people, it's just a job.
While others are there for making an
impact and purpose. And yeah, you also
need to be a bit lucky. But I found out
that especially these smaller
initiatives, the things that are not
super, super big yet.
There's so much potential, so much
innovation and knowledge, passion, I feel
(29:11):
like they deserve to be successful. And
in a way, sometimes I feel like that
myself, I'm just starting this together
with some there is in since
October 24, pretty recently.
So we're, we're absolute beginners. So we
need some, some leverage or runway to
(29:31):
make this into a success week, we cannot
be big at the very beginning. So in my
view, all the organizations, people, or
institutes that are already big.
In a way, it's also their responsibility
to help the smaller ones or the not yet
famous persons, right? And that's Yeah,
they're there. That can be challenging,
(29:52):
that can be challenging.
I think it can be challenging. But I
think it has the most potential, to be
honest, like these individuals, because I
think the times that we're in and the
technology that we have, you know, in
that creator economy or that influencer
economy is is is becoming
bigger and bigger and bigger.
And I think that's a great experience.
Like when I grew up into the industry,
(30:13):
you know, I graduated my undergrad degree
in 2001. So, you know, internet was still
it was becoming bigger and bigger. But
you know, social media was like, I think
we had, what was it? My space, I think
was the biggest social media
platform that was out there.
And even then that was that was getting
that wasn't even that big at that point.
But there was no Facebook, there was no
YouTube at that point. And the people in
(30:36):
the organizations who kind of ruled the
roost were the big organizations, the
WWF, the Oceana, and they did some
phenomenal work and they
continue to do phenomenal work.
But they had like they were the machines
that kept things going and and you either
worked with them or you didn't or maybe
you worked as like a consultant. So
they'd get like a professor or they get
(30:56):
like somebody who was, you know, had a
lot of experience in the industry and
they were experts and they would work
with them, you know, on a contract basis.
And they would have little contracts or
they would fund graduate work. And they
did again, they did some amazing work
like WWF funded my part of my graduate
work on marine protected areas. And it
was it was wonderful to work. They were
really great to work with.
But then as people started to graduate
(31:19):
and more and more people started to get
into the field of marine science and
ocean conservation, there was less and
less funding available and more people
around and the funding continues to kind
of decrease it seems or not increase it
the way it should be.
And there are more people starting more
organizations. Some of those are getting
bigger. Other people are going in
different routes and and but we're seeing
(31:39):
this this increase of the individual of
the creator and who are, you know, they
might be undergraduates.
They might be graduates or they might be
newly graduates or they might be business
people just like yourself and Sanders who
are who decide to say, you know what,
like we were interested in the ocean and
we need to help solve these problems.
And we started seeing more and more
(32:00):
individual people and smaller
organizations who are coming on to the
forefront competing for this same
funding. And and a lot of them are being
left behind or not being able to succeed
in doing a full time career within this
business doing the mission, which a lot
(32:20):
of times are really great missions.
So they are they are they are needed.
They are necessary. They're trying to
solve a problem, whether it be through
business or whether it be through a
charitable action. You know, those are
separated, but they're
all over the place. Right.
And so there is a need to be able to have
an organization like like Balian or like
(32:42):
the undertow to to be able to support and
help these individuals to be able to move
forward by looking at
different funding actions.
Oh, yeah. Different ways to fund them
because oftentimes they get left behind.
This is where I have the problem with. I
feel like the major problem with the
collaboration is and I get it like it's
(33:03):
nobody's fault by any means.
A lot of the times when you don't see
collaboration working out, it's not
necessarily because of somebody's trying
to be mean or someone is just trying to
like get all the I mean, you see that,
but not often. Right.
Rarely. Right. And I think it's just I
think it's more of the fact that these
organizations control the funding. They
(33:24):
give out the funding and and they can
only give up the funding to certain
people. It's who they know and stuff.
But there's so many people that are that
are that are growing and that are coming
into this industry as individuals that
they need that extra support because you
never know the impact that these
individuals will have on the
world. You know what I mean?
Like you never know who the next David
(33:44):
Attenborough is or you know, you never
know who the next Sylvia Earl will be or
or Melissa Marquez or Diva Amman. You
just never know. And so be but if they
don't have that support, then it's then
they'll never get there.
And so that's where I think Balian
becomes such an integral part of the
system is because you can provide that
(34:06):
support not only from a monetary
standpoint, from a funding standpoint,
but from like an actual support of like
provide them with a community and provide
them with that. Right.
Like what are your thoughts on that?
It's all about community visibility
awareness and fundraise is a very big
obstacle, but also just consider funding
(34:27):
like you mentioned in order to get to the
big funds. You need to have some kind of
an idea, but not just an idea.
You need to have a proven idea or ideally
an already working organization. But how
do you get there if there's no funding,
right? It all starts with a bit of
awareness and visibility.
(34:47):
And like your example with David
Attenborough, I don't know, but I can
totally imagine and when he was 20 or 30
years old, barely no one knew him.
Right. You have to start somewhere,
right? Yeah. And I feel like imagine
you're an individual considering this
(35:09):
idea about how can I make
an impact? Just like myself.
There's not a lot of funds that we have.
There's not a lot of time that we have.
When we started, we were thinking about
this besides our day to day job. We've
given up on our day to day job now. But
(35:30):
at that time, our time was very limited.
So little time, almost no budget, but it
was a big difference. And that is we are
really, really passionate about where we
want to go. So our North Star was there
and it hasn't moved.
We are this is what we want to do. This
(35:51):
is where we are heading. And this
intrinsic motivation, this sense of
purpose. And I really, really need to end
up here in this domain. And this is what
I want to do. That's something.
You only sense this with these smaller
individuals, this innovative spirit
about, okay, no matter what, I will get
there. And you start to make move
(36:16):
everything to make that happen. This
drive. That's something that's that's
super powerful. And that's where also
where we feel like, okay, these
individuals, these smaller
organizations that start.
They do need the same attention. And
there should be no limitation on on the
(36:38):
smaller initiatives. They should deserve
the same respect and the same visibility
like like the bigger ones. We all make
impact in our own way.
But it should not be limited by just or
how to let me put it in different words,
you cannot be successful all at once. You
(36:59):
also need to write small 100%. Yeah, and
that goes for everything. And it makes so
much sense. But how to live upon that, we
feel like we can just simply leverage the
the the the the the the the the the
opportunity there by
removing the biggest obstacles.
Yeah, and collaboration. Yeah, you will
(37:21):
find situations where you cannot
collaborate where someone said, Oh,
sorry, I don't have priority. But I have
my own project. It happens. Yeah, finds
the people around you who do have a
match. And that's where it starts. So
there's already also this this
matchmaking in collaboration, you need to
find the right person. And if it's not
(37:41):
now, yeah, who knows in five years time,
we might be just one
of these big ones. And
I hope I will tell the same at that time,
right? But we really, really believe that
all these smaller initiatives, all
innovation comes can come from anywhere,
no matter whether you're a scientist,
whether you're an individual like me,
(38:01):
whether you live in Australia in Africa,
or wherever, I don't care. It's just
people, it's in innovation, it's spirits,
it's purpose. Let's let's make use of it. It's there.
Yeah, and there are so many things that
need to be done within the ocean. It
makes sense for that these these up and
(38:22):
comers, right? These individuals who have
these ideas who want to bring it to the
next level, get that support to bring it
to that next level, whatever that level
looks like, right? Some will go will jump
levels, others will go one step at a
time, most of the people will go one step
at a time, because that's how how
businesses grow and things like that.
And, you know, have to have patience and so forth. And so, you know, I think that's a really important thing.
And I think it's, I think it's really
(38:47):
important. I think I think it's great.
Now, you know, when when you work with a
bunch of these individuals, you know,
through the ballon platform, will they'll
probably be people who will collaborate,
you know, through the platform or meet
through the platform, like, you know,
we've been on a couple of meetings
together and workshops together on on
(39:10):
communication, and we've been on the platform for a long time.
We're on the platform for a long time,
which is a good communication. And there
are probably a good, you know, 10 to 12
people who are on the calls at any one
one time. And, and it's easy to see the
collaboration already. Yeah.
Already happened. How do you encourage
that on the platform for people to to
collaborate? Yeah, of course, some of
(39:31):
them already know each other. But what
what is that I mentioned this this
networking through networking effects.
But what I really enjoy seeing is also
the new people meeting.
Yeah.
We have a Dutch organization doing things
in the North Sea and they make an impact
(39:55):
in a very, very nice
way with citizen science.
We have an organization in Mexico doing
coral reef restorations and they are in
the same space, but they never met.
So this is super enjoyable for me to
watch. They're also learning from each
other and I am there. I can watch that. I
can learn from them as well.
(40:16):
And maybe I also have some insight that I
can share with them. This networking of
bringing people together, bringing
organizations together.
That's a community. And what I really
like about it, there's always these talks
about, yeah, we need to make sure that we
have our noses
pointing the same direction.
(40:36):
We need to be fully aligned, but I rarely
seen it really aligned
like I'm seeing today. Yeah.
There's only people with a sense of
purpose, ocean impact. And it comes from
deep inside. So it's from there coming
from their personal
values most of the time.
Then magic happens. There's so different
(41:01):
energy in such a meeting and or workshop
or conversation that you're having.
(41:24):
Shaman articulated to
(41:49):
give you information.
have a feeling in a lot of spaces, and
this is not just in ocean conservation,
but a lot of spaces,
is we don't learn what a good
collaboration entails, right? We don't
learn how to collaborate
with people. We just expect that people
will be respectful of each of
(42:10):
their own goals, and we try,
like, you know, you and I, when we got
together, it's like, how can
we benefit each other? Like,
this is a collaboration. How do we make
sure that each of us get value out of
this relationship? And
I've done this over a number of times,
and we always define it together to make
sure that we can see
value in each other. For new people
coming on to the to the Balian platform,
(42:31):
what would your suggestions
be to ensure that you get healthy
collaborations where both parties benefit
in some sort of way?
Yeah, right. In typical business, you
will start pitching your idea and how
important it is. But
at Balian, we did it actually a bit
different. We asked for, hey, what are
(42:53):
you doing? And where are you going?
What do you like to achieve? And before
you know it, you have an
amazing conversation about
this enormous potential or innovation or
opportunity that someone sees, which
other people have not seen.
Oh, wow, I like what you're doing. Do you
want me to help you? Right?
Yeah, happy to do. And right,
(43:15):
that's where that's where in my view is a
lot of lost opportunity. If you
you need to consider what does the other
person want to achieve? And
and if you forget about that,
how could it become a collaboration if
you're only looking to
achieve your own goals?
(43:36):
It cannot work. It's only it might work
once, but then it ends. But instead, if
you turn it around, hey,
what are you doing? What do you want to
achieve? And then you can also decide for
yourself whether it fits or not.
Yeah, but this is where where it starts
with and also in
business development in general,
(43:57):
you should never try coming back to
consumer goods, right? Don't develop what
you like yourself. No,
develop what your customer or your target
audience is looking for.
I think the same goes for
collaboration. If you want to become a
successful collaborator. Yeah, I'm
definitely not an expert, but I believe
like ask for what your your your your
(44:20):
opponent, not not the opponent, your your
collaborate, your potential collaborator
is looking for. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going to find a word the right word.
No, I know. You're right. You're
completely right. You know, it's
interesting, too, because we had a
workshop this morning just before we did
this recording, as I mentioned, we met.
And we had Natalie on and she's been
great at for communicating and she talks
(44:41):
about this sort of strategy of flipping
the script on on people when you
communicate with people to get them
interested instead of saying, you know,
my mission or what we're trying to do or,
you know, collectively, our mission is to
do this is to include, you know, them in
the, you know, partnerships or you with
(45:02):
and this and that. And I feel like the
same thing when you do
any kind of collaboration.
Yeah, you know, is is like just as you
mentioned, like, what's your mission?
Like, what do you what are you trying to
accomplish? And then I think the key is
how your project or like say, so if we're
collaborating, like we like we are now,
you know, the key is like,
hey, you have this platform,
(45:23):
right? I'm a form of alien. I really
believe in it. So now you're trying to
accomplish certain goals. So my goal is
like, how can I use what I have in terms
of my project to benefit you? You know,
and so I come up like as I hear what
you're trying to do, I'm like, okay, now
the the ideas are running. Here's some
ideas. What do you think if we did this?
(45:45):
You know, come on the podcast, talk about
a number of different things within, you
know, with working with people and the
platform and stuff like
that. And you're like,
you know, I'm a person and you go back is
like, well, why don't you come to some of
these workshops and go through the
storytelling workshops and everything.
And it and that's how I feel like that's
how it works, right? Is the key is to not
only not not only add value to that
(46:06):
person to help them accomplish their
goals, but also do it in a form where
it's like, well, this is what I'm doing.
And I think this is where I can help.
What are your thoughts on it? Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now that I'm
thinking about it, you need to tell me
how you did this. But now
that I'm thinking about it,
what one of the things that we
drastically changed is we we really made
(46:30):
a careful decision to put everything
we're doing out in the open. So you can
find our fully transparent, you can find
our handbook and how we deal with each
other, how we're organized, everything is
out in the open. And yeah, why not,
right? We have not we don't have anything
to hide. If you're collaborating, there
(46:52):
needs to be a certain base of
trust. And we really started wondering
for ourselves, why should we hide
anything? Do we have secrets? Should
there be something that other people
should not know? Right. And we came to
the conclusion. It's not like that there.
There is none. So we're communicating as
(47:13):
openly as we can. We're we're started, we
make mistakes, we make a lot of mistakes.
And if you don't mind, just tell me.
Well, correct it. And in return, I can
help you as well. Yeah, very different,
very different. And in a way, for me,
it's very refreshing. And this is also
(47:33):
what I sensed in our collaboration,
right? There's a lot more openness in
when we first met. And yeah, I'm also
curious to see how you do that, then,
right? You need to bring a lot of people
together as well. Yeah, yeah.
And it brings a lot of curiosity. How do
others people other people do that? And
(47:54):
yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of
asking. Yeah, it's true. And I like how
you mentioned the transparency. That's a
that's an important aspect. You know, one
of the things that I've done through the
podcast is I don't edit my interviews.
You know, I tell people I don't unless
they there's something that they said
that they're like, Hey, you know what,
Andrew, like, I shouldn't have said that
(48:15):
that was a project that was coming out
later. And, you know, before that and
that kind of stuff. But
for the most part, I don't
want to be as. I want to, I think they'rebetter, better. I want to be as upfront.
And the reason why is is the trust,
right? Is to be like look, this is the
conversation that we had. I don't want to
be to be known as manipulating the
interview. And the reason why did that
when I especially when I first started, I
really focused on that telling people is
(48:35):
because a lot of the scientists that I
was talking to you had had bad
experiences with, you know, bad press,
like bad journal. Yeah, sure. And and,
and so forth. Not to say that any
manipulated in a different way and they
didn't like it. So they didn't trust the
media. And so I said,
(48:56):
look, I'm a scientist. One of the reasons
why I'm doing this is to get your
information out there.
So I'm here to promote you. I'm here to
promote the work that you
do. I listened to or read your
work and I'm a big fan of it. And I want
people to know about the
project that you're doing or
the study that you just published on it
and so forth. And that
really garnered a lot. People are
(49:17):
more relaxed when you do the interview.
You know, they're not as
uptight. They're not as nervous.
It's more like this kind of like this is
more of a conversation. And
I think it's a very important
aspect to the work that I do. And not a
lot. I never, I don't usually
advertise it because I don't
need to because like the conversation is
all out there. And it's
kind of funny because I've had,
you know, some people, not many, but some
(49:37):
people who are just like, oh, well, you
know, your interviews
are like really long. And, you know, do
you need to know every bit of detail
about that person? And
you're just like, no, you don't. But it
also goes towards that personality of
that scientist or that
conservationist or that person, my guest.
And people get to know
them a little bit more. Plus,
you know, I published everything because
(49:59):
I don't want it to be, I don't want to
like just cut it and
cut it and cut it and try and manipulate
it into a different story. I want the
conversation. I want
people to like basically you're sitting
in on a conversation I'm
having. That's why I started the
podcast and how that's the focus of the
structure of the
podcast. And I think that's
important, but it goes back to my point
(50:19):
of the, and your point of the
transparency and trust to
build. And then at the end of the
episode, people are like, I love this.
Like this was a lot of fun to do.
Can we do another one? You know, I've had
people ask right off the bat, like, hey,
let's meet and let's
do another one. Like this is a lot of
fun. Yeah, that's how my podcast, you
already promised me one.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like right off the
(50:41):
bat. But I mean, I know you more like
we've had conversations
and stuff. But you know, like, like it's
it but it's an important aspect for
people to enjoy the,
you know, the enjoy the process. You
know, I want them to have a good time on
the on the show when
they're recording because it can be
intimidating. You know, the what you
(51:01):
know, I remember when I
first started when I turned that
microphone on and press record, I was
like, Oh, gosh, like this is not, you
know, you get nervous, you
worry about what you say, I want people
to be relaxed, you know, that you're in
good hands, and I'll, I'll bring you
through it. And that's why I find we've
had such great experiences with with
(51:21):
interviews and
conversations, we've been able
to talk about some difficult topics that
have been that have been talked about.
But trust is a huge aspect to that. And
and I think you're right. I think it's a
it's a big part of of collaborations, you
know, is to have that
transparency and have that trust.
Yeah, well, thanks for sharing it. I
(51:41):
liked it. I liked it did the overlap
there. And I can confirm I wasn't
nervous. Right, right. It does work. It
does work. Yeah. The
trust is a super important thing. And for
me, it also starts with authenticity. You
cannot be someone else because all the
others are already taken. And in a way,
(52:06):
if you're open about who you are, yeah,
that helps a lot. And people sense it
when you're not honest about what you're
doing. Yeah. So why hide it?
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
I think I think you're right. Look, this
has been an amazing conversation. I love
(52:28):
talking about this because I think it
really brings out into the open. There's
a lot of people who've had some good,
great experiences and awful experiences
on the other end of that spectrum with
collaborations. And I think it's great to
be able to discuss what to expect, you
know, and and I think also, you know,
being up front with people like, look, I
want to have this conversation. I want
(52:49):
both of us to benefit from this
relationship if this is
going to move forward.
And if not, then that's fine. You know,
if you don't see, I always tell people if
we don't see a eye to eye on certain
things, there's no hard feelings and we
just go for it. As long as we both get
value out of it, then it works well. And
I think that's what a lot of people need
to. I think we almost have to teach that
(53:10):
a little bit in terms of what
collaborations will look like and what it
should look like and what it shouldn't
look like. And I think that's an
important aspect. So, Bart, this was
amazing to do this. I
want to have you back here.
I want to have you back on very, very
shortly. We're going to have a lot of
conversations because it'd be a lot of
fun. But but yeah, so if people want to
(53:32):
know where they can get more information
on you, where shall we send them?
Yeah, well, we have our website, of
course. But some. Yeah, a website is just
one thing. There's always a thought
behind it. And in the end, it's just a
screen that you're watching.
If you feel like, oh, wow, I like what
these guys are doing, or I like the
(53:53):
story. Yeah, just reach out to us. We
have a contact form. We are on LinkedIn.
So yeah, feel free to reach out. And
that's how we have been working with Ford
now, officially six months.
We started a bit earlier. But also how we
met, right? So yeah, exactly.
(54:15):
I like what they're doing, or I have this
thought. Yeah, happy to learn. It's not
so much about teaching. It's more about
learning for myself.
Absolutely. Absolutely. No, perfect. I
love that. We'll put the website in the
show notes. It's baileyand.org. Yeah. And
so put that in there so people can get a
and we'll put right to the link right to
(54:36):
the contact page too. So if people want
to get in touch with you, they can.
Bart, thank you so much for having coming
on the podcast and we love having you on
and looking forward to having you on
again. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're still small.
So also we need to build our.
Yeah, so happy to do that. Thanks,
Andrew. I like your your openness in in
sharing your experiences that I also
(54:58):
learned a lot from you here.
Absolutely. Well, there's you know,
there's trust. We got to build with the
audience too. And so showing where you
came from all the time and then the value
that they bring to me is amazing as well.
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. All right.
Awesome. We'll talk to you.
Yeah, we'll be soon. Yeah.
Thank you, Bart, for joining us on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast. It was great to be able to
(55:19):
talk to you about collaborations about
Balian and what it could do and what a
good collaboration can do to help get
people to the next level of their mission
to help protect the ocean.
It's always important to be able to
discuss this. And so if you want to
follow up with Bart, if you have any
questions, you can do so. Go to Balian
dot org. So it's B A L E A N dot org.
(55:42):
That's B A L E A N dot org. There will be
a link in the show notes or in the
description below if you're watching this
on YouTube. Love to hear your comments.
So if you want to put your comments down
below or send me an email, go to
speakupforblue.com forward slash contact
and just fill out the form. But also
you'll see me in the email.
You'll see me in the undertow in that
community can go to speakupforblue.com
(56:03):
forward slash join the undertow to join
that group and you'll see a lot more of
lead in there. So I want to thank Bart,
our guest. It's the first time, but not
the last time he'll be on. And I want to
thank him for being on. It was great to
have him on being so transparent, so
collaborative. And I want to thank you,
the listener, for listening to this
episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
From the true north strong and free. Have
(56:24):
a great day. We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.
There is a collaboration problem within
There is a collaboration problem within
the ocean conservation
field, and we're going
to talk about it on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
We have Bart Orr, who is the new founder
of Balian, which is a
platform that helps individuals
individuals that have ocean missions,
that have ocean missions, have that
support and get that funding to push
their ocean missions
push their ocean missions even further
(00:20):
even further and get to that next level.
We're going to talk about how this
We're going to talk about how this
founding came, how Balian
came to be, how he went from
he went from an engineer to a founder of
an engineer to a founder of an ocean
conservation organization.
We're going to talk about how our
We're going to talk about how our
collaboration has been so
helpful and what makes a good
what makes a good collaboration for ocean
collaboration for ocean
conservation on this episode.
(00:40):
Let's start the show.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
This is the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the
ocean, how you can speak
up for the ocean, and what you can do to
live for a better ocean by taking action.
better ocean by taking action.
On today's episode, we're going to be
On today's episode, we're going to be
talking about
collaboration and what the problems are
in collaboration in today's ocean
(01:01):
conservation field and how
to solve that, especially in
this creator economy that we talk about.
We're seeing a lot more and I'm seeing a
We're seeing a lot more, and I'm seeing a
lot more individuals
come up with ideas of
how to protect the ocean, how to make the
ocean more sustainable, how to get people
involved in making the ocean protected
and conserved and more
sustainable and just helping
(01:22):
out the planet in general.
But there's a lot of problems with that
because you're individual.
You don't have necessarily a huge
platform like some of the
larger organizations do.
And a lot of the times you get left out
And a lot of the times you get left out
of the funding because
you're not part of a large
organization, which makes it
really hard to collaborate.
really hard to collaborate.
So we're going to talk about
So we're going to talk about
collaborations in this episode.
We're going to talk a lot of things and
I'm going to introduce my
guests in just a second.
(01:43):
But before we do, if you are interested
in protecting the
ocean, I want you to consider
consider joining the undertow.
joining the undertow.
The undertow is a platform, another
The undertow is a platform, another
platform where you can be
part of a community where
not only are you going to be able to
support wave makers, but
you can also be guided to
taking ocean action, whether it be
through buying specific
products that we vet to make
sure that they're good for you or that
(02:04):
you're just talking about
the ocean in general and
learning more about the ocean.
And learning more about the ocean.
No algorithms from a
No algorithms from a
social media platform.
social media platform.
This is all ocean all the time.
This is all ocean all the time.
Go to speak up for blue.com forward slash
join the undertow that
speak up for blue.com
blue dot com forward slash join the
forward slash join the
undertow to get access to that.
Now to introduce my guest today, we have
Bart Orr, who is one of
(02:25):
the founders of Balian
Balian and Balian dot org is the website.
and Balian.org is the website.
So you can go there to get more
information and contact them
and I'll put it in the show
notes, but Bart and I have been talking a
number of times recently.
of times recently, as soon as we met, we
As soon as we met, we met through a
friend of ours, Natalie
Gilson, who is a communications
Gilson, who is a communications person,
person who works for Pisces management.
management and she's amazing.
And she's amazing.
And I've been able to meet a number of
different people
through these collaborations.
(02:46):
collaborations and we decided to
And we decided to collaborate on through
some podcasting and to
be able to talk about
Balian to be able to talk about what
makes a good collaboration
and how to elevate individuals
individuals who want to work within the
who want to work within the ocean
conservation field may not have that
traditional background
that traditional background of ocean
of ocean science or being a marine
biologist, ocean
conservationists, but want to help out
out regardless and have various creative
regardless and have various creative ways
(03:08):
of doing so, whether
it be through business,
whether it be through art, whether it be
through a number of
different avenues, science, and
we don't want to be able to
get them to the next level.
And so Balian is one of those platforms
that's working to do that.
And it's a great platform and it's going
And it's a great platform and it's going
to become a bigger platform as it grows.
So I want to have Bart on to talk about what makes a good collaboration.
So I want to have Bart on to talk about
what makes a good collaboration.
So we talk about the current problems and
So we talk about the current problems and
(03:29):
some of the solutions
that we suggest throughout
this collaboration.
So if you're an individual who's looking
to up their game in
terms of ocean conservation,
conservation, this is
this is the episode for you.
the episode for you.
And if you're an individual who's
And if you're an individual who's
struggling with
collaborations in the past, this might
be good for you to be able to listen to.
you to be able to listen to.
So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy
and I'll talk to you after.
Hey, Bart, welcome to the how
(03:50):
to protect the ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk about collaboration
in ocean conservation?
Yes, sir. Yes, I am. Yeah.
Let's collaborate, right?
Absolutely. This is a collaboration which
we'll find out more
about in a few minutes.
And Bart and I, we've met through a good
friend of ours, Natalie Gilson, and we've
(04:10):
So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy.
been kind of talking on and off for a bit
for the over the last couple of months,
working together, discussing ocean
conservation and what's needed.
And we're going to talk about your
platform, Baliin, and we're going to talk
about you and everything that has to go
with collaboration and ocean
conservation, because that's something
that one is an important thing to do to
(04:31):
get projects moving
forward to get action done.
We see collaboration on all different
levels from government level all the way
to individual level.
And so we want to talk about some of the
problems that we've seen and how to get
those solutions going
to solve those problems.
So we're going to talk about a lot of
things. And to be honest, Bart, I have a
feeling this is going to be the beginning
(04:52):
of a long conversation that's going to
happen over a number of episodes.
So I'm already inviting you back because
I know this is going to be a lot of fun.
But this is it's going to be like a
conversation and less of an interview,
but more of a conversation.
And I can't wait to get into it. But
before we do, Bart, why don't you just
let us know who you are and what you do?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Wow. And then we still
need to start, right? And already paving
(05:13):
the road for the next steps.
Yeah, look, Bart Orr, I am Bart training.
I'm a mechanical engineer. I have my
business background. And but I'm
absolutely intrigued by
sustainability in general.
And a couple of years back, I got into
this thing called ocean and ocean
conservation, ocean sustainability. And
(05:34):
that's where things took off. And I found
out I have a new career.
Almost like a new purpose, right?
Yeah, so what what is important to me is
that if you consider how we look at the
earth and how we how we deal and live our
(05:55):
everyday life, I became absolutely
fascinated by the fact how how this the
largest ecosystem on the planet is has
always been there for millions of years.
And it's keeping it's it's it's still
there. It's taking care of us. And we are
barely aware of that, right? As humanity.
And that's that's thought about, okay,
(06:17):
there's this big thing, keeping us alive.
While we barely know.
That's fascinating. So let's explore
that, right? And that's where my journey
started. There's also one of the reasons
why I decided, okay, let's let's go for
it. And this is going to be my new
purpose, my new future. And hence, here's
value. And suddenly, I'm an ocean
(06:38):
entrepreneur. No, with my co founder.
Yeah, well, I love I love that. I love
that aspect. And, you know, coming from
an engineering background, like why has
sustainability always been such a play
such a big role? You know, a lot of
engineers, you can engineer is such a
such a just like ocean conservation,
ocean science, there's such a it's such a
(06:59):
huge field, you can specialize in a lot
of different aspects of it, from oil and
gas all the way to creating, you know,
the smallest of instruments that go into
microchips that are microchips that go into computers that are
power some of the largest facilities in
the world. So this is such a broad
subject matter. But sustainability,
although it is a niche kind of area
(07:22):
within within engineering and sort of
within the scope. How did you like where
did that interest come from? And how have
you been using that throughout your
career? Yeah, well, for me, it's actually
pretty simple. It starts with awareness
for myself. I've been
creating, I think, a lot of people are
probably mostly consumer products or
(07:43):
tools and equipment and mechanical stuff.
And when you do that, you start to
realize, okay, yeah, let's let's make it
a bit better. Let's make it a better
product or how to make it more
sustainable and with a smaller footprint.
But after a while, you start to realize,
okay, it's still, well, still shit that
(08:03):
I'm putting into this new world, right?
And there's already so much so I became
fascinated about how can I lower my
footprint, but you cannot go below zero,
right? Still a challenge, still a
challenge. But if you get to zero, I
started wondering, is there a possibility
how you can make a positive impact,
(08:24):
which, which, well, maybe not with stuff,
but with things, the things that I want
to do. And that's, that's idea that kept
me alive. And also awake
in the evenings, right?
But it was really there. And I started
exploring things like, okay, seaweed,
super interesting, right? There's a big,
(08:44):
big potential in how seaweed is a
sustainable source of food and
livelihoods of people and while in the
ocean, it also does a great job in
biodiversity. So that's interesting. So
let's, let's, let's go there. And, and
just concepts like these,
that's, that's, that's, that's the
that triggered me. And what can I do,
(09:06):
right? How can me and how can I
contribute to that? How can my thoughts,
my, well, if I have them, how can all my
skills, how can all my skills contribute
to this bigger picture? And how can I
create something that is bigger than me
alone? And that's where collaboration
starts. There is one of the things that I
(09:29):
noticed, when I explored
this, this concept of seaweed,
and ocean conservation and the
combination of the two. What really,
really intrigued me is, this is a new
world. This is a new type of new sector
where people treat each other in a
different way. Everybody is in there with
(09:50):
a purpose, they're not there for money,
right? These people, they are truly
motivated, they are really there to make
an impact on their own way. And this,
this leverages this
different type of collaboration.
Different type of collaboration that you
would normally see in normally in my
world, from the industry, right? Where
(10:11):
it's all about, this is mine, this is
yours. And let's keep it like this. No,
it's way different, different mindset.
And that was something like, okay, here,
we can do something here, we can build
bridges. And this is, this is my type of
people I want to work
with. That's where it started.
I love it. I love it. And so like, when
(10:33):
you did engineering, what were you
working in? What aspect of engineering
were you working in?
Mostly consumer goods and production. I
did some things in bicycles, I did some
things in machine industry, construction,
medical tools, a whole bunch of things.
But when you're a mechanical engineer,
(10:54):
after a while, it doesn't matter anymore,
whether you build roller coasters or, or,
Coca Cola bottles, right? It doesn't
matter. It's just material. And I wanted
to do something like imagine with a
positive impact. And yeah, I believe my
mindset still is an engineer. Yeah, I
still think like that. And that's also
(11:15):
what I did when, when you zoom out and
you see the earth from space. I don't see
just this bowl, this, this bowl or this
floating swear, it's more like,
this is an ecosystem. This is a total
system that works. It's completely
closed. What happens there? And is this
ecosystem thoughts? How does it stay
(11:36):
alive? How does it
work? That's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I think I think it
is interesting, especially, you know,
working with consumer goods all the time,
you see, like, you're like, Oh, I want
this to be more like, I'd like this to be
more sustainable. And, you know, but
you're stuck in this sort of like a cog
in the wheel of, you know, the business
aspect and what, you know, marketing and
(11:57):
what, what works for people, what people
will use. And I mean, you know, changing
human behavior is very difficult. But,
but you can do that when you create
products. And I can see where that
sustainability really
comes in, like that.
Oh, yeah. Process, like how do we make
this a lot more sustainable? And, and I
love that aspect as well. So that's cool.
And so where was that shift, like that
(12:19):
predominant shift over the last little
bit where you're just like, you know
what, you know, I want to really have my
mark on, on, on the oceans and on ocean
conservation. So where, where did, can
you pinpoint that one moment where you're
like, okay, I'm making a, I'm making a
big shift because that's a
big change in your career.
Yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, and that's
(12:40):
quite unfortunate. I don't have, let's
say this single moment where it's okay
from tomorrow onwards, I'm going to do
everything different. It was like a
gradual shift. You get some, you're
interested in something, you learn more,
I had some conversations with a marine
biologist, I remember very clearly. And
she told me about how, how just whales,
(13:02):
how they contribute to CO2 uptake, and how they contribute to the world.
And I was like, okay, and this is just
whales. Tell me more, right? What, what's
the more you talk, the more you speak
with experts, the more you start reading,
you start listening to podcasts, you
learn, you watch documentaries, and
(13:23):
whether they are on national geographic
or Netflix, whatever.
And you start to search for information
and you want to know more and yeah, this
fascination that's unstoppable. And for
me, it became like a new passion. I
wasn't like this 10 years ago, but now
(13:44):
there's so much we need to do.
And this is the beauty. There's also so
much we can do. And that was different.
There's a lot of documentaries, like I
mentioned, or talks that you have about
people saying that this is not good.
It's, we have a problem and things are
not going in the right direction. And
(14:06):
they are right. There are problems.
But what triggers me and maybe this is
the engineer taking over, I see
opportunities, right? Consider this
example of these wheels, right? There's
now roughly 20% of the original wheel
population still left. And they take the
wheel activity that they only have like,
(14:30):
they already have four ways of carbon
sequestering four ways and
and their wheel activity is like 1% of
global carbon uptake with their activity
alone. Imagine we just restored back to
original populations. Yeah, then you go
from one to 5%. That's big, right?
(14:51):
That's a big difference. And
a lot of big animals around.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it was like that.
So it's just a matter of, okay, we bring
it back to how it was. And we save what
we had, we save ourselves, right? So for
me, it's more about the potential and how
we can leverage that rather than than how
(15:13):
all about how much of a threat we have.
And it is there, but I
see the opportunities.
Yeah, no, definitely. And so in comes,
you know, Balian, which you you co
founded. How did how did that all that
come about? Like where, you know, where
did that that vision come from? And then
(15:34):
how did you take that vision, you know,
from an engineering perspective, the
engineering mind and then bring about
being like, okay, like this is, yeah,
this is what we're gonna do.
And when you decide, okay, I want to do
something different. I want to do
something with the oceans, you start
thinking about, okay, where can I
contribute? Who should I told to? Hey,
(15:56):
I'm here, I want to help. And I started
noticing, okay, there's a lot of people
already doing amazing stuff. And I would
love to help them.
There is so much we can do.
Oh, these guys are doing coral reef
restoration. So here they are doing kelp
forest, a reef foresting. There's another
(16:16):
place where they work on well, you name
it, there's so much. But I noticed that,
okay, it's pretty challenging for a for a
non scientist like me, or someone who
doesn't come from conservation, or has
been a banker for 30 years or whatever,
and comes in with a lot of money. It's
(16:39):
very challenging to make this change to
this new sector. So I did some
volunteering, I talked to people, I did
my part in the best way I could. But
there was one thing that I noticed. And
this was this was also the
reason why I could not change.
It was not just a job change where you go
from one company to the other. I really
(17:00):
needed to change my mindset in and how
can I gradually make this change to a new
career to new purpose. And for me, the
trigger came into, okay, if there's one
problem that all these organizations, all
these people, and there are literally
10,000 of these organizations, millions
of people working on
ocean impact every day.
(17:20):
If there's one thing that's blocking
them, it is funding awareness,
visibility. Maybe I should do that,
right? If there is a big problem for all
these organizations, all these impact
organizations that I can remove, improve
and help them with, then I can make an
(17:44):
impact that is far
beyond who am I on my own.
And that's where Valian started.
Yeah, I love that. I think it's such a
hard thing to, it's a hard thing to
conceptualize right off the bat, right?
And then I think also, it's a hard thing
to try and say, like, who do you work
(18:05):
with at the beginning?
I mean, there's so many people that are
working within ocean conservation. It's
like, how do you support the people that,
you know, Valian's going to support?
And I think that's the challenge, which
we'll get into in a number of different
episodes here. Because I think, you know,
that's, I think that'll be the always the
question. And that's how we started to
(18:26):
get to talk as well, to share our
thoughts and share our ideas and where
you're working with some great people
like Natalie Gilson and stuff to get the
stories out and get Valian's story out,
including yours and Sanders.
And I think that's, I think it's, I think
it's really great. But, you know, the big
thing with with the mission of Valian is,
(18:47):
is, is collaboration. And that's what
we'll be talking about today.
And so for you when talking when thinking
about that mission, both of you, where
did collaboration, how did collaboration
become that much of a
key aspect in your mission?
Yeah, yeah. Well, it started actually
already with with my co founder, right?
(19:09):
We're neighbors, we're neighbors. So we
speak to each other already quite some
time. And, and then you I didn't, I
forgot that I didn't realize that you
guys were like
neighbors. That's hilarious.
Yeah, sometimes you search for for like
minded people all around the world. And
you speak to people that are literally on
the other side of the ocean. Hey, do you
want to work with me?
And right this idea.
(19:30):
But there's always something in the way,
right? I just got into a new job. Maybe
not. I just, I just got married. Don't
have the money, whatever. And then it
turns out, he was living on the other
side of the street, right?
Here's my neighbor Sonder.
So this was already where the
collaboration started. I started to
notice that if you just express your
(19:52):
passion, what you want to do, explain why
you want to do it. There are a lot of
people around you who have something
similar, maybe on a small
burner in the back of their head.
But a lot of people really want to make
an impact. And that's, that's something
that was also for us. We started from
scratch. This was super important. If you
(20:14):
speak with people and all openers and
transparency, and we don't do secrets.
There's no need for secrets. If you speak
about what you want to achieve, what you
can achieve, but you cannot do it alone.
We pretty quickly realize that this is
way bigger than just
two people, two founders.
There is so much we can do. And
collaboration in general, it should be
(20:36):
mutually beneficial, right? It cannot be
like, hey, thanks for helping me and
goodbye. No, it should always be like,
how can we help each other in such a way
that it doesn't only help me as a person
or as a business or organization?
How can we do it in such a way that it
also helps you and we found out that by
(20:57):
just posing this question, okay, well,
this is what we're doing. What are you
doing? Where's the overlap? There are so
many things possible
suddenly and doors open, right?
So instead of, like I mentioned before, a
simple job change, hey, here's my CV and
here you go. Now it really became a
transition into a different mindset,
(21:20):
which is all about collaborating
openness, mutual
beneficial collaboration that is.
And I think that's what I think collaboration is great. Now, how do you
like when you stepping into the ocean
(21:41):
conservation industry or the field,
you're coming in with a brand new lens in
your experience, how do you find
collaborations working within the
industry, not just with your own personal
things, but from people you've talked to
a lot of different people.
Yeah. How do you where do you get the
(22:03):
sense where collaboration is within
within the ocean conservation field?
Yeah, well, the first thing that I
noticed is that it's very interconnected,
right? You rarely find a person who is
only bound to one organization. They
typically do things
for this organization.
They also help there. And while doing
that, they have a hobby, which is also
(22:24):
related to ocean conservation in a way.
So it's very interconnected. And if you
speak to one, you automatically speak to
three, four or even five
people at the same time.
And so true. Yeah, it's a networking
became a very different way compared to
the traditional industry where I've been
(22:46):
in. It's very much on one on one contact.
And then maybe you can ask this, this,
this person to have me I do you also have
a colleague, or can you
let me speak to your manager?
It goes step by step ocean sector ocean
conservation and restoration. That's
different. If you notice there is a
(23:09):
shared passion. People will also say, Oh,
wow, that's great. I know what you need.
I know what you want to do. And you
should definitely talk to this guy. And
by the way, I just wrote him or her an
email. And it goes goes in a very
different way that this networking and collaboration is very different.
And I think that networking and
collaborative networking,
that that's super powerful.
(23:31):
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think
especially when you first start out and
you're starting to make these connections
and the networking becomes a big thing. I
mean, it worked for me too. From from
this podcast standpoint, when I started
interviewing people,
you know, back in 2014.
for this podcast,
which I launched in 2015,
I started to interview
(23:53):
people and then they'd be like,
at first, I knew a good
number of people within the field.
And so I started off
with them, of course,
and then they enjoyed it.
We had a good time talking and says,
oh, you know who you should interview?
You should interview this person.
They're working on such and such topic.
Oh, okay, cool, let's talk to that.
I remember I did an interview
(24:13):
on marine mammals and whales,
and I contacted one person
who I knew and I said, hey,
we did this interview and
at the end of the interview,
I started to ask a little bit about it
was one blackfish got released,
the documentary about Tilakum, the orca,
and the captive orca,
and changed the captive orca industry.
(24:35):
And I said, yeah, do you
know much about that movie
and what science went
in and stuff like that?
It looks like it's having a big impact.
He goes, oh no, you
should talk to my wife.
She's the orca biologist and
she did a lot of the science
and she checked the science for it.
So then I got to talk to her and that was
one of my biggest episodes to this date
on the podcast.
And it's interesting how once you show,
(24:58):
once you start to talk to people and show
what you're doing and they genuinely
understand what you're doing and feel the
love of what you're doing,
how they will pass it on and get you to
talk to other people to help you out.
And I think that takes a lot from
yourself to be able to
go and talk to people.
And I tell this to people who are looking
(25:19):
for jobs all the time in the industry.
I'm like the biggest thing
is start talking to people.
If you can't afford to go to a
conference, go on
LinkedIn, start messaging people,
start have one-on-one
coffees virtually with them.
There's so many ways you can
connect with people these days.
It makes it a lot easier
than when I was first starting.
But that networking
(25:39):
is really interesting.
I feel though when people start working
together or start
talking about working together,
that's when collaboration
really becomes important.
And I find that's where we really find
out where the problems
are in collaboration.
(26:00):
Have you come across, you don't have to
name any names or anything.
Have you come across instances where or
even heard of instances where
collaboration wasn't really working the
way you thought it would be working,
even between two different
organizations or whatever?
Yeah, well, we all have
our own stories, right?
And we met also through networking and
(26:21):
that was powerful, super nice.
And now we're suddenly talking to each
other in this podcast.
But of course, to me, there's a few
things that are important.
The first is timing. You need to speak to
someone who just happens to have the
right time and have this comparable
(26:43):
thought at the same time.
And sometimes you simply cannot convince
a person to do the same, right? It
doesn't always work like that.
I mentioned about this small thought in
the back of the mind of the people about
ocean conservation or
sustainability in general.
Some people just have a very small
burner. Others have a big fire.
(27:04):
And that needs to be a little bit of
coincidence. Sometimes you can feel it
like, ah, whoa, hold on.
I hear or you sense from a
person in a conversation.
And this goes very well
with a glass of beer in a cafe.
This person has this same sense of I can
do better. I can do more.
(27:24):
And that's the sweet spot, right? If you
know, oh, hey, hold on. What you're now
telling me, I
recognize what you're saying.
And I've been through that. I am going
through that at this very moment. And
then you want to you want
to explore this together.
We have shared passion. That's a sweet
spot. And of course, it also happens the
other way around, right?
(27:46):
If you have conversations with a friend,
even if they're they're very close to
you, it can sometimes
mean that this person
doesn't feel the connect or doesn't care
about it as much as you do.
Yeah, coincidence.
Yeah, professional. Yeah, sorry. Yeah,
please go ahead. No, go ahead. Go
(28:07):
continue. Continue. Go ahead. Yeah.
On a more professional level, I it can
also be sometimes like
internal priorities and
the industry in ocean conservation
restoration, it's a lot of small
initiatives, smaller individuals that
that's sometimes do this besides their
(28:27):
day to day job, right? Yes.
So much energy and compassion and passion
about what they want to achieve. And
these are the people have a really big
and open mind about Oh, yeah, sure.
We should they are truly motivated to to
make a change. Yeah, while bigger
organizations. Yeah, there it's it's for
(28:48):
for some people, it's just a job.
While others are there for making an
impact and purpose. And yeah, you also
need to be a bit lucky. But I found out
that especially these smaller
initiatives, the things that are not
super, super big yet.
There's so much potential, so much
innovation and knowledge, passion, I feel
(29:11):
like they deserve to be successful. And
in a way, sometimes I feel like that
myself, I'm just starting this together
with some there is in since
October 24, pretty recently.
So we're, we're absolute beginners. So we
need some, some leverage or runway to
(29:31):
make this into a success week, we cannot
be big at the very beginning. So in my
view, all the organizations, people, or
institutes that are already big.
In a way, it's also their responsibility
to help the smaller ones or the not yet
famous persons, right? And that's Yeah,
they're there. That can be challenging,
(29:52):
that can be challenging.
I think it can be challenging. But I
think it has the most potential, to be
honest, like these individuals, because I
think the times that we're in and the
technology that we have, you know, in
that creator economy or that influencer
economy is is is becoming
bigger and bigger and bigger.
And I think that's a great experience.
Like when I grew up into the industry,
(30:13):
you know, I graduated my undergrad degree
in 2001. So, you know, internet was still
it was becoming bigger and bigger. But
you know, social media was like, I think
we had, what was it? My space, I think
was the biggest social media
platform that was out there.
And even then that was that was getting
that wasn't even that big at that point.
But there was no Facebook, there was no
YouTube at that point. And the people in
(30:36):
the organizations who kind of ruled the
roost were the big organizations, the
WWF, the Oceana, and they did some
phenomenal work and they
continue to do phenomenal work.
But they had like they were the machines
that kept things going and and you either
worked with them or you didn't or maybe
you worked as like a consultant. So
they'd get like a professor or they get
(30:56):
like somebody who was, you know, had a
lot of experience in the industry and
they were experts and they would work
with them, you know, on a contract basis.
And they would have little contracts or
they would fund graduate work. And they
did again, they did some amazing work
like WWF funded my part of my graduate
work on marine protected areas. And it
was it was wonderful to work. They were
really great to work with.
But then as people started to graduate
(31:19):
and more and more people started to get
into the field of marine science and
ocean conservation, there was less and
less funding available and more people
around and the funding continues to kind
of decrease it seems or not increase it
the way it should be.
And there are more people starting more
organizations. Some of those are getting
bigger. Other people are going in
different routes and and but we're seeing
(31:39):
this this increase of the individual of
the creator and who are, you know, they
might be undergraduates.
They might be graduates or they might be
newly graduates or they might be business
people just like yourself and Sanders who
are who decide to say, you know what,
like we were interested in the ocean and
we need to help solve these problems.
And we started seeing more and more
(32:00):
individual people and smaller
organizations who are coming on to the
forefront competing for this same
funding. And and a lot of them are being
left behind or not being able to succeed
in doing a full time career within this
business doing the mission, which a lot
(32:20):
of times are really great missions.
So they are they are they are needed.
They are necessary. They're trying to
solve a problem, whether it be through
business or whether it be through a
charitable action. You know, those are
separated, but they're
all over the place. Right.
And so there is a need to be able to have
an organization like like Balian or like
(32:42):
the undertow to to be able to support and
help these individuals to be able to move
forward by looking at
different funding actions.
Oh, yeah. Different ways to fund them
because oftentimes they get left behind.
This is where I have the problem with. I
feel like the major problem with the
collaboration is and I get it like it's
(33:03):
nobody's fault by any means.
A lot of the times when you don't see
collaboration working out, it's not
necessarily because of somebody's trying
to be mean or someone is just trying to
like get all the I mean, you see that,
but not often. Right.
Rarely. Right. And I think it's just I
think it's more of the fact that these
organizations control the funding. They
(33:24):
give out the funding and and they can
only give up the funding to certain
people. It's who they know and stuff.
But there's so many people that are that
are that are growing and that are coming
into this industry as individuals that
they need that extra support because you
never know the impact that these
individuals will have on the
world. You know what I mean?
Like you never know who the next David
(33:44):
Attenborough is or you know, you never
know who the next Sylvia Earl will be or
or Melissa Marquez or Diva Amman. You
just never know. And so be but if they
don't have that support, then it's then
they'll never get there.
And so that's where I think Balian
becomes such an integral part of the
system is because you can provide that
(34:06):
support not only from a monetary
standpoint, from a funding standpoint,
but from like an actual support of like
provide them with a community and provide
them with that. Right.
Like what are your thoughts on that?
It's all about community visibility
awareness and fundraise is a very big
obstacle, but also just consider funding
(34:27):
like you mentioned in order to get to the
big funds. You need to have some kind of
an idea, but not just an idea.
You need to have a proven idea or ideally
an already working organization. But how
do you get there if there's no funding,
right? It all starts with a bit of
awareness and visibility.
(34:47):
And like your example with David
Attenborough, I don't know, but I can
totally imagine and when he was 20 or 30
years old, barely no one knew him.
Right. You have to start somewhere,
right? Yeah. And I feel like imagine
you're an individual considering this
(35:09):
idea about how can I make
an impact? Just like myself.
There's not a lot of funds that we have.
There's not a lot of time that we have.
When we started, we were thinking about
this besides our day to day job. We've
given up on our day to day job now. But
(35:30):
at that time, our time was very limited.
So little time, almost no budget, but it
was a big difference. And that is we are
really, really passionate about where we
want to go. So our North Star was there
and it hasn't moved.
We are this is what we want to do. This
(35:51):
is where we are heading. And this
intrinsic motivation, this sense of
purpose. And I really, really need to end
up here in this domain. And this is what
I want to do. That's something.
You only sense this with these smaller
individuals, this innovative spirit
about, okay, no matter what, I will get
there. And you start to make move
(36:16):
everything to make that happen. This
drive. That's something that's that's
super powerful. And that's where also
where we feel like, okay, these
individuals, these smaller
organizations that start.
They do need the same attention. And
there should be no limitation on on the
(36:38):
smaller initiatives. They should deserve
the same respect and the same visibility
like like the bigger ones. We all make
impact in our own way.
But it should not be limited by just or
how to let me put it in different words,
you cannot be successful all at once. You
(36:59):
also need to write small 100%. Yeah, and
that goes for everything. And it makes so
much sense. But how to live upon that, we
feel like we can just simply leverage the
the the the the the the the the the
opportunity there by
removing the biggest obstacles.
Yeah, and collaboration. Yeah, you will
(37:21):
find situations where you cannot
collaborate where someone said, Oh,
sorry, I don't have priority. But I have
my own project. It happens. Yeah, finds
the people around you who do have a
match. And that's where it starts. So
there's already also this this
matchmaking in collaboration, you need to
find the right person. And if it's not
(37:41):
now, yeah, who knows in five years time,
we might be just one
of these big ones. And
I hope I will tell the same at that time,
right? But we really, really believe that
all these smaller initiatives, all
innovation comes can come from anywhere,
no matter whether you're a scientist,
whether you're an individual like me,
(38:01):
whether you live in Australia in Africa,
or wherever, I don't care. It's just
people, it's in innovation, it's spirits,
it's purpose. Let's let's make use of it. It's there.
Yeah, and there are so many things that
need to be done within the ocean. It
makes sense for that these these up and
(38:22):
comers, right? These individuals who have
these ideas who want to bring it to the
next level, get that support to bring it
to that next level, whatever that level
looks like, right? Some will go will jump
levels, others will go one step at a
time, most of the people will go one step
at a time, because that's how how
businesses grow and things like that.
And, you know, have to have patience and so forth. And so, you know, I think that's a really important thing.
And I think it's, I think it's really
(38:47):
important. I think I think it's great.
Now, you know, when when you work with a
bunch of these individuals, you know,
through the ballon platform, will they'll
probably be people who will collaborate,
you know, through the platform or meet
through the platform, like, you know,
we've been on a couple of meetings
together and workshops together on on
(39:10):
communication, and we've been on the platform for a long time.
We're on the platform for a long time,
which is a good communication. And there
are probably a good, you know, 10 to 12
people who are on the calls at any one
one time. And, and it's easy to see the
collaboration already. Yeah.
Already happened. How do you encourage
that on the platform for people to to
collaborate? Yeah, of course, some of
(39:31):
them already know each other. But what
what is that I mentioned this this
networking through networking effects.
But what I really enjoy seeing is also
the new people meeting.
Yeah.
We have a Dutch organization doing things
in the North Sea and they make an impact
(39:55):
in a very, very nice
way with citizen science.
We have an organization in Mexico doing
coral reef restorations and they are in
the same space, but they never met.
So this is super enjoyable for me to
watch. They're also learning from each
other and I am there. I can watch that. I
can learn from them as well.
(40:16):
And maybe I also have some insight that I
can share with them. This networking of
bringing people together, bringing
organizations together.
That's a community. And what I really
like about it, there's always these talks
about, yeah, we need to make sure that we
have our noses
pointing the same direction.
(40:36):
We need to be fully aligned, but I rarely
seen it really aligned
like I'm seeing today. Yeah.
There's only people with a sense of
purpose, ocean impact. And it comes from
deep inside. So it's from there coming
from their personal
values most of the time.
Then magic happens. There's so different
(41:01):
energy in such a meeting and or workshop
or conversation that you're having.
(41:24):
Shaman articulated to
(41:49):
give you information.
have a feeling in a lot of spaces, and
this is not just in ocean conservation,
but a lot of spaces,
is we don't learn what a good
collaboration entails, right? We don't
learn how to collaborate
with people. We just expect that people
will be respectful of each of
(42:10):
their own goals, and we try,
like, you know, you and I, when we got
together, it's like, how can
we benefit each other? Like,
this is a collaboration. How do we make
sure that each of us get value out of
this relationship? And
I've done this over a number of times,
and we always define it together to make
sure that we can see
value in each other. For new people
coming on to the to the Balian platform,
(42:31):
what would your suggestions
be to ensure that you get healthy
collaborations where both parties benefit
in some sort of way?
Yeah, right. In typical business, you
will start pitching your idea and how
important it is. But
at Balian, we did it actually a bit
different. We asked for, hey, what are
(42:53):
you doing? And where are you going?
What do you like to achieve? And before
you know it, you have an
amazing conversation about
this enormous potential or innovation or
opportunity that someone sees, which
other people have not seen.
Oh, wow, I like what you're doing. Do you
want me to help you? Right?
Yeah, happy to do. And right,
(43:15):
that's where that's where in my view is a
lot of lost opportunity. If you
you need to consider what does the other
person want to achieve? And
and if you forget about that,
how could it become a collaboration if
you're only looking to
achieve your own goals?
(43:36):
It cannot work. It's only it might work
once, but then it ends. But instead, if
you turn it around, hey,
what are you doing? What do you want to
achieve? And then you can also decide for
yourself whether it fits or not.
Yeah, but this is where where it starts
with and also in
business development in general,
(43:57):
you should never try coming back to
consumer goods, right? Don't develop what
you like yourself. No,
develop what your customer or your target
audience is looking for.
I think the same goes for
collaboration. If you want to become a
successful collaborator. Yeah, I'm
definitely not an expert, but I believe
like ask for what your your your your
(44:20):
opponent, not not the opponent, your your
collaborate, your potential collaborator
is looking for. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going to find a word the right word.
No, I know. You're right. You're
completely right. You know, it's
interesting, too, because we had a
workshop this morning just before we did
this recording, as I mentioned, we met.
And we had Natalie on and she's been
great at for communicating and she talks
(44:41):
about this sort of strategy of flipping
the script on on people when you
communicate with people to get them
interested instead of saying, you know,
my mission or what we're trying to do or,
you know, collectively, our mission is to
do this is to include, you know, them in
the, you know, partnerships or you with
(45:02):
and this and that. And I feel like the
same thing when you do
any kind of collaboration.
Yeah, you know, is is like just as you
mentioned, like, what's your mission?
Like, what do you what are you trying to
accomplish? And then I think the key is
how your project or like say, so if we're
collaborating, like we like we are now,
you know, the key is like,
hey, you have this platform,
(45:23):
right? I'm a form of alien. I really
believe in it. So now you're trying to
accomplish certain goals. So my goal is
like, how can I use what I have in terms
of my project to benefit you? You know,
and so I come up like as I hear what
you're trying to do, I'm like, okay, now
the the ideas are running. Here's some
ideas. What do you think if we did this?
(45:45):
You know, come on the podcast, talk about
a number of different things within, you
know, with working with people and the
platform and stuff like
that. And you're like,
you know, I'm a person and you go back is
like, well, why don't you come to some of
these workshops and go through the
storytelling workshops and everything.
And it and that's how I feel like that's
how it works, right? Is the key is to not
only not not only add value to that
(46:06):
person to help them accomplish their
goals, but also do it in a form where
it's like, well, this is what I'm doing.
And I think this is where I can help.
What are your thoughts on it? Right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now that I'm
thinking about it, you need to tell me
how you did this. But now
that I'm thinking about it,
what one of the things that we
drastically changed is we we really made
(46:30):
a careful decision to put everything
we're doing out in the open. So you can
find our fully transparent, you can find
our handbook and how we deal with each
other, how we're organized, everything is
out in the open. And yeah, why not,
right? We have not we don't have anything
to hide. If you're collaborating, there
(46:52):
needs to be a certain base of
trust. And we really started wondering
for ourselves, why should we hide
anything? Do we have secrets? Should
there be something that other people
should not know? Right. And we came to
the conclusion. It's not like that there.
There is none. So we're communicating as
(47:13):
openly as we can. We're we're started, we
make mistakes, we make a lot of mistakes.
And if you don't mind, just tell me.
Well, correct it. And in return, I can
help you as well. Yeah, very different,
very different. And in a way, for me,
it's very refreshing. And this is also
(47:33):
what I sensed in our collaboration,
right? There's a lot more openness in
when we first met. And yeah, I'm also
curious to see how you do that, then,
right? You need to bring a lot of people
together as well. Yeah, yeah.
And it brings a lot of curiosity. How do
others people other people do that? And
(47:54):
yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of
asking. Yeah, it's true. And I like how
you mentioned the transparency. That's a
that's an important aspect. You know, one
of the things that I've done through the
podcast is I don't edit my interviews.
You know, I tell people I don't unless
they there's something that they said
that they're like, Hey, you know what,
Andrew, like, I shouldn't have said that
(48:15):
that was a project that was coming out
later. And, you know, before that and
that kind of stuff. But
for the most part, I don't
want to be as. I want to, I think they'rebetter, better. I want to be as upfront.
And the reason why is is the trust,
right? Is to be like look, this is the
conversation that we had. I don't want to
be to be known as manipulating the
interview. And the reason why did that
when I especially when I first started, I
really focused on that telling people is
(48:35):
because a lot of the scientists that I
was talking to you had had bad
experiences with, you know, bad press,
like bad journal. Yeah, sure. And and,
and so forth. Not to say that any
manipulated in a different way and they
didn't like it. So they didn't trust the
media. And so I said,
(48:56):
look, I'm a scientist. One of the reasons
why I'm doing this is to get your
information out there.
So I'm here to promote you. I'm here to
promote the work that you
do. I listened to or read your
work and I'm a big fan of it. And I want
people to know about the
project that you're doing or
the study that you just published on it
and so forth. And that
really garnered a lot. People are
(49:17):
more relaxed when you do the interview.
You know, they're not as
uptight. They're not as nervous.
It's more like this kind of like this is
more of a conversation. And
I think it's a very important
aspect to the work that I do. And not a
lot. I never, I don't usually
advertise it because I don't
need to because like the conversation is
all out there. And it's
kind of funny because I've had,
you know, some people, not many, but some
(49:37):
people who are just like, oh, well, you
know, your interviews
are like really long. And, you know, do
you need to know every bit of detail
about that person? And
you're just like, no, you don't. But it
also goes towards that personality of
that scientist or that
conservationist or that person, my guest.
And people get to know
them a little bit more. Plus,
you know, I published everything because
(49:59):
I don't want it to be, I don't want to
like just cut it and
cut it and cut it and try and manipulate
it into a different story. I want the
conversation. I want
people to like basically you're sitting
in on a conversation I'm
having. That's why I started the
podcast and how that's the focus of the
structure of the
podcast. And I think that's
important, but it goes back to my point
(50:19):
of the, and your point of the
transparency and trust to
build. And then at the end of the
episode, people are like, I love this.
Like this was a lot of fun to do.
Can we do another one? You know, I've had
people ask right off the bat, like, hey,
let's meet and let's
do another one. Like this is a lot of
fun. Yeah, that's how my podcast, you
already promised me one.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like right off the
(50:41):
bat. But I mean, I know you more like
we've had conversations
and stuff. But you know, like, like it's
it but it's an important aspect for
people to enjoy the,
you know, the enjoy the process. You
know, I want them to have a good time on
the on the show when
they're recording because it can be
intimidating. You know, the what you
(51:01):
know, I remember when I
first started when I turned that
microphone on and press record, I was
like, Oh, gosh, like this is not, you
know, you get nervous, you
worry about what you say, I want people
to be relaxed, you know, that you're in
good hands, and I'll, I'll bring you
through it. And that's why I find we've
had such great experiences with with
(51:21):
interviews and
conversations, we've been able
to talk about some difficult topics that
have been that have been talked about.
But trust is a huge aspect to that. And
and I think you're right. I think it's a
it's a big part of of collaborations, you
know, is to have that
transparency and have that trust.
Yeah, well, thanks for sharing it. I
(51:41):
liked it. I liked it did the overlap
there. And I can confirm I wasn't
nervous. Right, right. It does work. It
does work. Yeah. The
trust is a super important thing. And for
me, it also starts with authenticity. You
cannot be someone else because all the
others are already taken. And in a way,
(52:06):
if you're open about who you are, yeah,
that helps a lot. And people sense it
when you're not honest about what you're
doing. Yeah. So why hide it?
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
I think I think you're right. Look, this
has been an amazing conversation. I love
(52:28):
talking about this because I think it
really brings out into the open. There's
a lot of people who've had some good,
great experiences and awful experiences
on the other end of that spectrum with
collaborations. And I think it's great to
be able to discuss what to expect, you
know, and and I think also, you know,
being up front with people like, look, I
want to have this conversation. I want
(52:49):
both of us to benefit from this
relationship if this is
going to move forward.
And if not, then that's fine. You know,
if you don't see, I always tell people if
we don't see a eye to eye on certain
things, there's no hard feelings and we
just go for it. As long as we both get
value out of it, then it works well. And
I think that's what a lot of people need
to. I think we almost have to teach that
(53:10):
a little bit in terms of what
collaborations will look like and what it
should look like and what it shouldn't
look like. And I think that's an
important aspect. So, Bart, this was
amazing to do this. I
want to have you back here.
I want to have you back on very, very
shortly. We're going to have a lot of
conversations because it'd be a lot of
fun. But but yeah, so if people want to
(53:32):
know where they can get more information
on you, where shall we send them?
Yeah, well, we have our website, of
course. But some. Yeah, a website is just
one thing. There's always a thought
behind it. And in the end, it's just a
screen that you're watching.
If you feel like, oh, wow, I like what
these guys are doing, or I like the
(53:53):
story. Yeah, just reach out to us. We
have a contact form. We are on LinkedIn.
So yeah, feel free to reach out. And
that's how we have been working with Ford
now, officially six months.
We started a bit earlier. But also how we
met, right? So yeah, exactly.
(54:15):
I like what they're doing, or I have this
thought. Yeah, happy to learn. It's not
so much about teaching. It's more about
learning for myself.
Absolutely. Absolutely. No, perfect. I
love that. We'll put the website in the
show notes. It's baileyand.org. Yeah. And
so put that in there so people can get a
and we'll put right to the link right to
(54:36):
the contact page too. So if people want
to get in touch with you, they can.
Bart, thank you so much for having coming
on the podcast and we love having you on
and looking forward to having you on
again. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're still small.
So also we need to build our.
Yeah, so happy to do that. Thanks,
Andrew. I like your your openness in in
sharing your experiences that I also
(54:58):
learned a lot from you here.
Absolutely. Well, there's you know,
there's trust. We got to build with the
audience too. And so showing where you
came from all the time and then the value
that they bring to me is amazing as well.
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. All right.
Awesome. We'll talk to you.
Yeah, we'll be soon. Yeah.
Thank you, Bart, for joining us on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast. It was great to be able to
(55:19):
talk to you about collaborations about
Balian and what it could do and what a
good collaboration can do to help get
people to the next level of their mission
to help protect the ocean.
It's always important to be able to
discuss this. And so if you want to
follow up with Bart, if you have any
questions, you can do so. Go to Balian
dot org. So it's B A L E A N dot org.
(55:42):
That's B A L E A N dot org. There will be
a link in the show notes or in the
description below if you're watching this
on YouTube. Love to hear your comments.
So if you want to put your comments down
below or send me an email, go to
speakupforblue.com forward slash contact
and just fill out the form. But also
you'll see me in the email.
You'll see me in the undertow in that
community can go to speakupforblue.com
(56:03):
forward slash join the undertow to join
that group and you'll see a lot more of
lead in there. So I want to thank Bart,
our guest. It's the first time, but not
the last time he'll be on. And I want to
thank him for being on. It was great to
have him on being so transparent, so
collaborative. And I want to thank you,
the listener, for listening to this
episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
From the true north strong and free. Have
(56:24):
a great day. We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.
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