August 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Map the Deep Sea to protect what we don’t yet understand. In this episode, Andrew Lewin speaks with Tim Kearns from Map the Gaps, a global initiative working to close the knowledge gap beneath the waves. With over 75% of the seafloor still unmapped in high resolution, the ocean remains Earth’s final frontier—and unlocking its secrets is essential for biodiversity, disaster planning, and climate action.
Ocean mapping is more than bathymetry. It’s a tool for social justice, environmental stewardship, and informed decision-making. Tim shares how Map the Gaps supports small island nations, Indigenous communities, and global science efforts through collaboration and cutting-edge technology. From an exploration policy perspective, this conversation makes a clear case: mapping the deep sea is the foundation for a sustainable ocean future.
Website: https://www.mapthegaps.org/
Map the Gaps Website: https://www.mapthegaps.org/symposium
Join the Undertow: https://www.speakupforblue.com/jointheundertow
Connect with Speak Up For Blue
Website: https://bit.ly/3fOF3Wf
Instagram: https://bit.ly/3rIaJSG
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@speakupforblue
Twitter: https://bit.ly/3rHZxpc
YouTube: www.speakupforblue.com/youtube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Most of the planet is ocean.
Yet over 75% of the sea floorremains unmapped in high resolution.
The deep sea is earth's finalfrontier, home to ancient life.
Vital ecosystems and untapped discoveries.
Without maps, we can't protectwhat we don't know exists.
Threatened coral reefs,biodiversity hotspots.
(00:20):
Or submarine landslides.
Oil and gas can drill, cables canbe laid, and mining can begin all
in areas we've barely explored.
Map the gaps brings together theglobal ocean mapping community
to close this knowledge gap.
Through technology, science andcollaboration, they chart the unseen to
inform policy conservation and innovationmapping isn't just about data, it's
(00:46):
about equity, inclusion, and sharedstewardship of our ocean commerce.
Indigenous voices, small islandnations and emerging ocean leaders
are crucial to this global effort.
With each mapped ridge or trench, weunlock climate clues, disaster risk,
insights, and marine management tools.
'cause of better Ocean map meansa better future for nature,
(01:08):
for science, and for all of us.
Today I'll be speaking to Tim Kernsof Map the Gaps on this episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, andthis is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean,how you can speak up for the ocean,
(01:29):
and what you can do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
And I'm gonna tell you somethingthat I discovered really recently.
Map the gaps is one ofthese projects that.
Doesn't always see the big, bright lightsof, you know, the news or of the main
focus of what people are talking aboutwhen we talks about exploring the ocean,
but mapping gaps in the ocean, mappingthe deep sea is extremely important
(01:53):
and crucial for our entire existence.
Let's be honest, this issomething that needs to happen.
We need to map the gaps, and I'mso excited to be speaking with Tim
Kerns, who is from Map the Gaps,but is also a former teacher of mine
when I did my GIS Analyst AdvancedDiploma in 2003, 2004, at the Center
(02:14):
Geographical Sciences in Nova Scotia.
When I was a kid, when I was doingmy master's, I did this diploma.
I met Tim.
He has this.
Energy around him thatyou can't duplicate.
He loves to talk about exploration,loves to talk about sea floor, and
this is just a perfect project for him.
Perfect opportunity for him, not onlyto discuss the map the GAP symposium,
(02:35):
but also discuss the future of Mapthe gaps and why we need to map.
The gaps.
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
This interview.
I can't wait for you guys to see theinterview if you're watching this
on YouTube or you're listening tothis on your favorite podcast app.
But definitely this is oneyou don't want to miss.
If you want to know the future ofOceans and why we need to map the
gaps, this is the episode for you.
(02:56):
So here's the interview with Tim Kerns.
Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
Hey Tim, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk about Map the gaps?
I am always ready totalk about map the gaps.
Awesome.
Well, this is a very special episodefor me today because Tim and I, not
only are we gonna be talking aboutmapping the ocean, which is something
(03:17):
that's both a passion of ours, but Timwas a teacher of mine when I actually
did my GIS Analyst, advanced diplomaat COGS University in Nova Scotia.
He taught me remote sensing.
We had a great time in your class, Tim.
It was always fun.
Not only did we get to know you in theclass, but we also got to know you,
like in the lab, around the campus.
You were a lot of fun just aswell as all the other teachers.
(03:39):
And it was great, uh, to be ableto see it and then come, you
know, 20 over 20 years later.
We're not gonna say how old weare, but you know, 20 years later.
Here we are talking on the podcastabout mapping and looking at deep
sea oceans and why we need to mapthese gaps that we have in the ocean.
I am super excited to be able to talkabout this, but before we do, Tim,
(04:00):
why don't you just let the audienceknow who you are and what you do.
Okay.
Well, thanks Andrew for the introduction.
And I will also say it's, it's alwaysreally, uh, very rewarding to me.
I mean, I taught for five years Yeah.
At, uh, the College of GeographicSciences, which is now part of
Nova Scotia Community College.
And, uh, it's very rewarding to knowwhere students ended up in their careers.
(04:23):
So it's great and a littlebit happenstance, the
happenstance that here we are.
Something, something many years later andyou're highly successful in your career.
Thank you.
And I just think that's great and what agreat opportunity we have to chat again.
Absolutely.
After these, uh, after these long years.
So, uh, thanks And, uh, my name'sTim Kerns and I've been with
(04:44):
Map the Gap since 2019, whichis when the company was founded.
I've developed my whole careeraround ocean related technology
and almost always around ocean.
Floor mapping or ocean floor exploration.
So rewind back to when I lived in Ontario.
Yeah.
And I was in, uh, university and Idid a geography undergrad and didn't
(05:07):
really know what I wanted to do with it.
I knew I liked mapping, Itook an oceanography course.
Hmm.
And that opened my eyes Yeah.
To the world of oceanography.
And even though I grew up inOntario, I immediately had this.
Inexplicable love for the ocean, uh, thatI'm sure still my parents scratch their
heads over and I knew that I needed to goout and dis and do ocean floor mapping.
(05:31):
Yeah.
That's what I wanted to do.
And so I was very fortunate.
Uh, and I went and I actuallywas a student as well at the
College of Geographic Sciences.
Yeah.
Or COGS as people say.
And although I did a remote sensing.
Uh, advanced diploma, I actuallytailored most of my work around ocean
floor mapping, and it was just, I wasjust a sponge of information and, uh,
eventually got hired at the Bed BedfordInstitute of Oceanography mm-hmm.
(05:54):
With the Canadian HydrographicService, where it was a fire hose
of knowledge and training and, andthe beginning of my career really.
In this, uh, fascinating technology.
So that's, that's, that was alittle bit of where I was Yeah.
At the beginning of my career.
And I've done a lot ofthings over the years.
I've taught, as you mentioned, I'vebeen in software development, uh, I've
led project teams and consulting teams.
(06:16):
I've run companies and I'vesupported companies and worked
in hardware and software.
And most recently at a nonprofitdoing amazing work around marine
observations in the Great Lakesand supporting Lakebed 2030.
And, uh, now I'm, uh, still supporting Mapthe Gaps, which is really a non-profit.
Yeah.
It's mostly volunteer run and hasbeen since 2019 and Map the Gaps
(06:39):
was kind of founded out of the ShellOcean Discovery XPRIZE competition.
Hmm.
Which, uh, I was part of ateam that started in 2016.
Yeah.
And this was a think of a bad news Bears.
Uh, uh, kind of a ragtag group ofpeople from all over the world.
Uh, we had almost no money, butwe were very generously supported
(07:00):
by the Nip on Foundation.
Mm-hmm.
Who supported our team.
We put together a submission anda proposal to the Shell Ocean
Discovery xprize, and our team endedup winning the whole darn thing.
It was quite remarkable.
Uh, we were the underdog and westill pulled it off, and after
that we wanted to keep the spiritalive of doing amazing things.
Yeah.
With.
(07:20):
A disparate group of peoplefrom all over the world.
Yeah.
And boom, map the gaps was formed.
Amazing.
Just to go back, I forgotthat you grew up in Ontario.
What university did you go towhere you took oceanography?
I went to University of Windsor, whichI don't think is known for oceanography
program, but it had one course, yeah.
In maybe third year.
And, uh, and I loved it and it was great.
(07:40):
Love it.
Well, it does have a good fisheriesprogram, if I'm not mistaken.
Like I remember that was oneof my universities I went to.
I went to Guelph, but, uh, no, Windsor wasreally good in their, in their biology and
their like physical sciences and stuff.
And, and, and that's awesome.
Um.
Now with, with map the gaps, Imean, with all your, with all your
information, like, like, uh, all yourexperience, I should say, and, and
(08:00):
the value that you have brought toevery position that you've been in.
Like you've had a pretty wide breadthof, you know, from teaching to, you
know, hardware, software developmentto, uh, running companies and so forth.
When MAP the Gap idea cameto you and your colleagues.
Did it, was it, was it your ideaor was it just a bunch of people
(08:23):
sitting around at a conferencebeing like, we, we need to do this.
Like this is something that's gonna,like how did the idea come to be in 2019?
Oh, that's a great question.
I think really it was agroup, it was a group effort.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna claim any sort of, uh,ownership or, or anything like that.
Uh, there was several of us who were partof the leadership of the XPRIZE team.
(08:46):
Um, I had also been running, uh.
An annual event on called,uh, the Map the Gap Symposium.
Mm-hmm.
That had been started in 2016.
Uh, that was an affiliationwith Jeb Co. Right.
And uh, really I think therewas just a general momentum of
wanting to keep this spirit alive.
Yeah.
But also wanting to formalizethe symposium a little bit.
(09:07):
So I'd say some of my closecolleagues of the leadership from
the XPRIZE team and myself, we said,what's the best way to do that?
Really the best way to do thatis forming a legitimate company.
Yeah.
A notfor profit.
Yeah.
Uh, where the rules are very clearin terms of any work that we do
is in the science domain, right.
Any data we collect is publicly available.
Um, and then have access to thisnetwork of people all around the world.
(09:32):
Yeah.
Who can come in, come out, they canparticipate when they can or not.
And that's the beauty of avolunteer based organization.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not to say it'llalways be volunteer based
because we are trying to raise.
Some real capital, right?
So we can grow the company, uh,to do more of what we've been
doing for the last six years.
And yeah, and this is, this isalways, that interests me 'cause
I've, I've known a lot of nonprofitsthat have grown out of symposiums.
(09:56):
So, so first symposium was in Mountthe Gap symposium was in 2016.
And then, and by 2019 you're like,let's formalize this a little bit more.
Let's put a company around it, anonprofit organization around it.
When you ran the first, when youguys ran the first symposium.
Uh, to 2019.
What made it so that that waslike, this is what we need to do?
(10:18):
Was it just, was it increasing inmembership and increasing in, in
participation from other people?
Was it other people being like, Hey, weneed to do, like, was was the sort of the
final, um, resolution of the symposiumbeing like, we need to do something more.
We need to do more things, or weneed to really formalize this.
What made that.
Come that idea come about where it'slike, we need to formalize this and
(10:41):
put it under a structure, like anonprofit organization like Math Gaps.
Right?
Well, like many things in life, thesimplest answer is usually the best one.
And in this case, it was avery practical consideration.
Okay.
Which was there were expenses incurred.
That required a business.
(11:02):
Gotcha.
That makes sense.
Required a credit card.
Uh, but it, that was, I mean, weprobably could have continued on, right?
But another thing happened between2016 and 2019 as well, which was
the success of the symposium grewand was attracting more people.
Uh, so we, we needed to, to beable to put on a bigger event with.
(11:25):
More things and food and beverageand activities and attract speakers.
And so all of that ofcourse requires capital.
And it rent from, I think in 2016we had maybe 50 or 60 people attend.
And by 2019 we were having 150 people.
Wow.
Uh, come to the events and thenwhen we went through the COVID era,
(11:46):
we had over 600 people tuning in.
'cause it was all live streamed Of course.
And so the event itself grew Yeah.
And just warranted practicalconsiderations for sure.
Like having a proper, a dedicatedwebsite, having a credit card to
pay for things, having the abilityto sign contracts, but it was also
attracting a whole new audience.
(12:06):
Mm-hmm.
Back in 2016, it was a verysmall group of people who were
very familiar with each other.
By 2019, our percentage of peoplewho were attending a symposium
for the first time was at 80%.
So we recognized that we wereattracting new people to the symposium
year over year, which was great.
Yeah.
Because they were gettingexposed to ocean floor mapping.
(12:29):
Mm-hmm.
Which is a relativelyunknown, I would say.
It's not a technology, it's arelatively unknown activity.
Yeah.
Many people think thatthe oceans have been met.
Yeah.
And that's one of our largest barriersthat my colleagues and I in this community
have is because they see Google Earthor they see the base map from Esri.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Or wherever.
Or they see the pictures inNational Geographic and they think,
oh, but it's already been done.
Mm-hmm.
We say, well, not really.
Yeah.
And it's, it's as, it's very interesting.
It's like these, these assumptions thatwe think that have been done because
Yeah, it makes sense to do them.
So people are thinking, of course we have,we've, we've mapped them and we know.
(13:13):
Probably what we need to knowabout, about the deep, which we'll
get into in just a sec, because weknow that, that that's not true.
The, uh, you mentioned the increase ofpeople that are coming and the makeup of
people, you know, mapping the gaps and,and looking at ocean floor exploration.
Looking at, at the science that canhappen, the discoveries that can happen,
(13:35):
um, the opportunities that are available.
Who are the, like what professionalbackgrounds are the people who, who
normally attend these symposiums andmake up sort of the membership or the
people within, within Maps the gaps Now.
Mm-hmm.
That's a great question.
Um, well, it, it's evolved.
(13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Over time.
So I would say historically ortraditionally, the people who are involved
in any sort of ocean floor explorationand mapping fall into scientific and go.
Camps, people who are doingthis for hydrographic purposes.
Mm-hmm.
Which is nautical charting, safety ofnavigation, and, um, uh, protection
(14:17):
of people and vessels at sea.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, then there's also exploration, uh,sorry, like mineral exploration or.
Oil and gas exploration.
Mm-hmm.
Or root survey for, uh, whereto lay cables and pipelines.
Yep.
Right?
Yep.
You need to know whatthe bottom looks like.
There's a lot of work around benthichabitat and understanding the nature
(14:38):
of the sea floor, so we know whatbiology and marine life, uh, lives
there and, and calls that their home.
Um, and then there's also a lot of.
Complimentary science that goesalong with that better understanding.
Tsunami modeling, understanding seismicand plate tectonics, and all of these
influences that affect the oceans andultimately earth, um, come from this
(15:01):
foundational data set of bathymetry.
So the professionals who are involved are.
Survey engineers, they're governmentofficials or their graphers or baths.
Mm-hmm.
Um, they're scientists,they're oceanographers.
It's a really wide range ofpeople who, um, get involved.
And in the symposium we alsostarted attracting a new audience
(15:26):
member, which was young people who.
Maybe had a background like yours in GIS.
Yeah, and were really interestedbecause two other things happened in
the late teens of, uh, as it relates tothe ocean, but probably three things.
One was the general population of earthlike society became critically aware that.
(15:50):
Uh, the oceans are perhaps in harm.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to do a better jobof protecting them writ large.
Yeah.
And so awareness of the oceanenvironment, things like the garbage
patch and pollution and warmingtemperatures, were all becoming
more predominant in the news media.
Mm-hmm.
And becoming on people's minds.
Um, the Jeb Co. Jeb Co, which is thegeneral IC metric chart of the oceans.
(16:15):
Partnered with the NIP onFoundation to create a project
called the Seabed 2030 Project.
So this is supported by Jeb Co.And the NIP on Foundation and
the Seabed 2030 project has beenphenomenal in raising awareness about
the need for ocean floor mapping.
Yep.
And just how little of it has been done.
So all of that happenedafter 2016, and then the UN.
(16:38):
Has a decade of ocean science, which isall around, you know, 10 years all around
ocean science and ocean technology and,and the needs of our, of our own planet.
So I think all of those things culminatedinto attracting a new audience for
groups like map the Gaps and thesymposium, but not just map the gaps.
It's just, it's all over, uh, youngpeople who want to be involved.
(17:00):
They want to contribute, they want to puttheir energy into this, learn more so they
can do more and take responsibility and.
Action for the health of our own planet.
Mm-hmm.
And that's, and that's interesting.
So as the, the people changed andincreased, did the mission for Map
the Gaps change, like as it wasformed in 2019 officially, you know,
(17:23):
you probably had like an idea in thesymposium and there's probably different
themes throughout the, for eachsymposium, what was like the initial.
Mission of Maps, the GA map, thegaps when the symposium started.
And how did, did it, did it changewhen you actually created the entity
as we know it now, as map the gaps?
Uh, that's a great question.
(17:44):
The initial mission was a,to put on the symposium.
Yeah.
Every year, another part of the missionwas to develop partners and help build
this network of companies, organizations,and individuals who wanted to support.
Ocean floor mapping and exploration,um, through helping map the gaps.
And then a third part wasactually participating.
(18:06):
In and coordinating actual emissions.
Hmm.
And so this is people going out on boatsor remotely processing data, uh, that are
in support of bathymetry data collection.
Hmm.
And so we did all three ofthose things and continue to
do all three of those things.
I would say the mission expandedover the last five years,
(18:27):
and this is where we are now.
We're at this point where werealize that there's really.
Maybe none, but certainly notvery many organizations that
are advocating or actively doingsystematic ocean floor exploration.
Right.
So certainly Seabed 2030.
Once again, phenomenal.
(18:48):
Yeah.
Uh, growth and advocacy for the need andhas also done a great job at aggregating
available data sets and in many cases,uh, supporting or partnering with other
organizations who are collecting data.
Mm-hmm.
That then contribute that to thispublic database, uh, accessed
via Seabed 2030 map the gaps.
Wants to take a, a bit of a step further.
(19:10):
We want to actually organize and do.
Systematic ocean floor exploration.
Hmm.
And so there's a program that we'relooking to develop now, and that's part of
what we're talking about at the conferencethis fall in October, is how do we connect
individuals perhaps with money Yeah.
Or organizations to participate in oceanfloor exploration in some capacity.
(19:35):
And part of our new, part of ournew mantra, I guess, is that who can
participate in ocean floor exploration?
Anyone can.
Right?
You don't have to be anoceanographer, you don't have to
be a super wealthy individual.
You don't have to have a boat.
You don't have to be belongto a hydrographic office in a
company or in a, in a country.
(19:55):
Anyone can participate inOcean four exploration.
Yeah.
And there's various waysthat they can do that.
And that's interesting.
You know, in the nameitself, map the gaps.
We're looking at mapping thedeep sea, but let's be honest.
The gaps are pretty big right now.
We're not talking about smallgaps like small swaths of, of
areas that have not been mapped.
(20:16):
There's a lot of area in the deepsea that has not been mapped,
so it's a large undertaking.
How do you, where do you begin?
With this mission of, of bringing peoplein and, and like, I guess when the
people come in, what are, what are theirthoughts when they initially come in?
(20:37):
Some of these professionals that youhave on Engineers, Beres, you know,
GIS, you know, young gi s people,people who have been doing GIS for a
long time, like yourself and like, whatis the idea around this to like, where
do we begin and how do we proceed?
Obviously the money you mentioned likethe initial funding, but after like
where do we begin in terms of mapping?
(20:58):
Right.
Well, let's talk about the name.
Yeah.
Because the name means more than justthe activity of mapping the ocean floor.
When we came up withthe name, map, the gaps.
And originally it started, Ididn't, I didn't invent the term
map the gaps that started years ago.
Mm-hmm.
Through people in the Jeb Cocommunity to talk about this
(21:18):
concept of mapping the gaps.
But when we decided to name the companyMap the gaps, it was because it was
more than just mapping the ocean.
It was also about mapping those gapsor connecting those gaps between.
People.
Mm. And that is one ofthe things that's missing.
If you go back historically at who hasdone this type of work, it was graphers.
(21:40):
It was militaries and nas.
It was science or mineralexploration and oil and gas.
It was a relatively small, and eventake it a step further, it was mostly.
White Western.
Yeah.
Wealthy countries Yes.
Or individuals who are doing it.
Yeah.
So we, it's a, the earthis a big, it's a big place.
Mm-hmm.
And the oceans are big and they touchborders of countries that do not have
(22:03):
the resources that we may have mm-hmm.
In Canada and North America and others.
So how do we get those people involved?
And that was part of the original missionof MAP the Gaps, was connecting other
people who may not have the resources.
Mm-hmm.
So that they can also participate.
In this grand endeavor.
So now when people come to us and theysay, Hey, I'm a GIS person and I want
(22:25):
to get involved, well, there was justa fantastic post on LinkedIn the other
day by Natalie Gilson that talks about.
Um, I'm participating in something,yet I'm behind the screen.
I'm on my laptop orwhere my keyboard Right.
And yet I still, I still wanna bepart of it and I am part of it, but
I don't feel like I'm part of itenough, and that's a great sentiment.
(22:47):
So true.
Uh, you know, I haven't, I haven'tbeen on a survey vessel, survey
myself for a couple of decades now.
Really?
So true.
We do.
You know, and yet I'm still involved.
Yeah.
And so when people come tous, in some cases, it's.
I want to get out there.
I wanna be on a boat.
I want to collect dataand know what it's like.
And that's, and that's great.
We'll try to find opportunitiesand connect people so they can
have that, even if it's part-time,even if it's one-off and they, they
(23:11):
may love it or they may hate it.
Mm-hmm.
And that's okay.
They're still gettinginvolved for other people.
It's supporting, not just map the gaps,it's supporting other organizations.
So maybe we refer them to supportCED 2030 or, or academic, or we get
help get them into programs so theycan get some additional training.
Yeah.
Um, that's, that's certainly another way.
(23:32):
And then in many cases we have peoplewho support map the gaps directly
through supporting our social media,helping build the website, right.
Doing fundraising, connecting and growing.
The partner community, um, helping withthe symposium, that's always, yeah,
of course that people can get involvedand support it, but it is the task
of mapping our oceans is monumental.
(23:54):
And it could be multi-decade oldeven if we were to start tomorrow.
Um, and it's also expensive, however,relative to other things that humans
have done, it's not that much.
Right?
Yeah.
So.
We fund and do space exploration.
Mm-hmm.
And have for many decades now it's timeto turn or expand some of that energy
(24:17):
and those resources onto planet Earth.
And I don't think we canjust rely on governments.
And there there's two reasons for that.
One, governments aren't spendingenough money or, you know, they're
not investing in this area.
Mm-hmm.
But even if they did, they would onlydo it within their national boundary.
True.
Right.
They're inclusive economics, soit's very difficult otherwise.
Yeah.
(24:37):
A lot of the ocean isin international waters.
Mm-hmm.
The deep blue.
And so how do we fund that?
How do we get people out there?
And it is, it's very important to do it.
Mm-hmm.
It's never been done.
No, and it's never been done.
Uh, it, what's, what's interesting toois I've, we've, you know, we've seen the
debates, you know, is it easier to workin space or, or why explore space when we
(25:00):
haven't even really explored the ocean tothe depths of that we need to, you know?
And, um, the, the, the, thefocus should be on the ocean.
Obviously we are biased.
We're on this podcast.
It's how to protect the ocean.
So we're, we're definitely biased,but there's a, there, there is
an inherent truth in we need toprotect what's on this planet.
You know, we know we're, we'redoing damage to the planet.
(25:22):
We don't even know the severity yet.
Of total damage that we've, we'vedone or total dis like influence
around the ocean that we've done.
'cause we don't know muchabout the deep 'cause.
We haven't even mapped some of the basicsof, of, of some of the, the deep areas
that we, that we want to find out about.
Um, I feel as though, uh, and, andI'd love to ask you, do you find that.
(25:44):
Governments are quick to explore morewhen there's an opportunity to benefit
from it in either natural resourceextraction or some sort of, you know,
whether it's, it's a, uh, renewableenergy, like tidal energy or looking at.
Deep sea mining.
We're quicker to explore that thanjust to explore for the sake of
(26:05):
knowing where, you know, what is downthere and, and what we have and, and
the, just the depths and, and thebathymetry and the, and the landscape
of it all, or the seascape of it all.
Do you find that there is more of a, ofa push when there's something to gain
for these governments or, uh, do youfind, do you, do you think otherwise?
It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts.
(26:26):
'cause you've, you've been arounda lot of different types of like,
private and, and public entities,uh, and talking about this.
Well, I think like anything in life,people are motivated or organizations
are motivated by different factors.
Mm-hmm.
So some of those couldbe economic factors.
Mm-hmm.
(26:46):
And some could be.
Um, scientific or conservation,some could be exploitative.
Yep.
And so it, it really runs the gamut.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't think nationalgovernments are any different.
Right.
Uh, even at the beginning of mycareer when I was with the Canadian
Hydrographic Service, we had partneredwith Clearwater Fisheries mm-hmm.
(27:07):
Mm-hmm.
Berg to better understand benthichabitat by doing sea floor mapping.
Yeah.
Right.
And at that time, areas likeBrowns Bank and Georgia's Bank and
German bank off the coast of NovaScotia, they'd never been mapped.
It was very poorly understood in terms ofwhat the sea floor morphology looked like.
Right.
And yet the fishing community waswell aware that there were some areas
(27:31):
that high had higher yields Yeah.
Than others for their catch.
And so part of that partnershipwas definitely economic.
Yeah.
Um, but it was also scientific.
Mm-hmm.
So it was understanding, collectingthe science to help better
influence the economic side.
And in the end, fishing presumablybecame more efficient, but also safer.
(27:54):
In a weird sort of way becausethen they weren't fishing in areas
where there were sensitive habitat.
Right, right.
Because they were at leastaware of where the habitat was.
And before that it was a crap shoot.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
I, I think that's just one exampleof a private partner, private public
partnership that had really greatbenefits for the Canadian government
(28:16):
in terms of collecting all thisamazing data that better informed.
Um, the, the public mm-hmm.
And themselves, scientists onwhat was there, but it also helped
efficient community as well.
And so I think another,so that's one example.
I think another example is the UNConvention on the Law of the Sea.
So countries being able to betterdelineate their boundaries based on
(28:40):
the foot of the continental shelf.
And you know, I mean there's all kinds ofvariables that go into that, of course.
And I'm not an expert at, atall on it, but that was one.
Motivation and impetusfor national governments.
Mm-hmm.
To rally around the conceptof better understanding.
Their sea floor adjacent to theircoastline going out however many miles
(29:02):
was necessary so that they could make aclaim that would ultimately help define
and protect their national sovereignty.
In terms of a boundary.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, but also all that data was collected,you know, phenomenal value and for.
Uh, kind of follow on ordownstream science that could be
(29:22):
done as a result of that data.
And that's what we keep coming back towith bathymetry or this ocean floor data.
Really, it's a foundational data set.
It's like.
If we don't have that, yeah.
Then how can we possiblydo everything else?
For sure.
And so, I mean, you know, andthat's, that's one of the largest
justifications for collectingit in the first place, right?
(29:43):
Is that there's so much complimentaryand additional work that can
happen as a result of just startingwith this foundational data set.
To get data, you have to go outand map and map these, these areas.
Uh, and it, and it becomes that.
It becomes a challenge in itself.
It can be, it can be, uh, expensive.
It's to, to know where to start, knowwhere to be, like where to go, how is map
(30:07):
the gaps going to define that of priorityareas of where to, uh, of where to map
first or will that be defined by theperson who's willing, or the company who's
willing to fund it and just be like, Hey.
I wanna know more aboutthis, this specific area.
How are we going to prioritizethis at Map the gaps?
(30:28):
Well, it's a great question.
Map the gaps is not going toarbitrarily make priority areas, right?
That's for sure.
Right.
But I do think that we're lookingat exploring some new ways to
identify priorities, and some ofthat could be through gamifying.
How it's done.
So imagine a landscape where youhave small little hexagons and
(30:52):
some individual gets to choosewhich hexagon they wanna map.
Right.
Or they, they would like to see mapped.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe they're picking it becausethere might be a plane crash in there.
Yeah.
Or a shipwreck or someother sunken treasure or.
Maybe there's some underwater canyonor volcano, or maybe they just
like that area because it's got50 degrees south and 50 degrees.
(31:15):
You know, there's some sort of otherinteresting, uh, aspect to it for why
they chose that particular spot on theocean that they want to sponsor and adopt.
And now.
That doesn't mean we're justgonna turn around and send a
ship out there and go map it.
Obviously we need critical mass ofcourse, before any activities can be done.
But I think priority setting could bedone through a variety of different ways.
(31:37):
One is just through, um,money or, or vote even, right?
Yeah.
Like where should we go first?
Another could be through,um, interesting areas.
So perhaps there's, we know that.
Through course resolution data,let's say something that you
might see on Google Earth.
Uh, we know there's likesome sort of canyon something
(31:58):
there, or some sea mounts.
We want to go explore that.
So maybe that'll attract moreinterest, uh, that could help
with the priority setting.
I don't know.
I think that, I think that's anarea to be developed in terms of
how do we set priorities for whatneeds to be mapped when so much
of it hasn't been done at all.
Absolutely.
That's, I think that'sa, it's a great question.
(32:18):
I think I love the way to explore the,the different ways of, of doing things.
Gamifying a little bit through votes orthrough where people want to go if they,
if they're interested in a specific area.
I think it's great.
It's a great start anyway tosee where people are interested.
Plus it democratizes the whole thing.
I think that's a, uh, I love thatway that that'd be my preference.
Yeah.
Just to put it on the recordthat, that, that's my preference.
(32:40):
I think that's a great way of doing it.
Um, and there's just so manythings that you can, you can do,
uh, when, when going above that.
And then of course, the other partof about the gaps, which is an
important part, which could helpwith where to set, you know, where
they go forth, is the symposium.
And, and so there's a symposium, uh, everyyear is that it's an annual symposium
and there's gonna be one in 2025.
Is that the, that's the idea, correct.
(33:01):
It, it's been almost, almost annual.
We've, we've had a few, uh, gaps Okay.
Here and there.
Yeah.
But yes, there will be one in 2025.
It's called Ocean Floor Explorer.
Okay.
And it's in Victoria, British Columbia.
Yeah.
October 26th to the 29th.
And it's being co-hosted, um, byCoast, which is, uh, a, a, a Blue
(33:22):
Tech Innovator and uh, um, grouphere in Victoria, British Columbia.
That helps companies.
Get off the ground, and it's alsoforms a network of, uh, companies
and individuals in the area.
Interesting.
Okay, cool.
Now, when if, if people are interestedin this topic and they want to go to
the symposium, what, what would, whatshould they expect at the symposium?
(33:44):
Uh, this year it falls into a fewbroad categories, and one is, uh, the
challenges and the value of doing oceanfloor exploration in the first place.
And so that is, that is a goodquestion that people often ask is,
well, why, yeah, why should we, andthere's two sides to that answer.
One, one of it is.
(34:06):
Very practical, scientific,economic, uh, safety of life.
You see all those, all those amazingreasons for why we should do it.
Mm-hmm.
And then the other one is a little,a little less quantitative and
it's actually more qualitative.
It's because it's earthand we've never done it.
And so that's the emotionalconnection of we need to.
(34:27):
Explore our own planet.
We need to understand itin order to protect it.
And in order to do that,we need to measure it.
And none of that's been done.
So part of, part of the first portionof the conference is to talk about the
value of it, the value of doing it, andthe value of the data that is there.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
(34:47):
I mentioned already about allthe downstream, um, benefits that
come from collecting this data.
Another part of the conference is totalk about, well, how could we fund it?
There are different models,certainly national governments.
Um, put money into it.
There's some high net worthindividuals that have funded
their own missions or others.
(35:08):
Uh, there's other NGOs and nonprofits thatare participating, certainly academia.
So is there, are there other models orcan we continue to explore those models?
One model of course is crowdsourcing it.
Yeah.
So crowd funding it.
Really?
Yeah.
How do we get individuals?
How does my mom Yeah.
Participate.
She's not going to, actually, mymom probably would go out on a
(35:30):
ship, but you may not have theopportunity to go out on a ship.
Right, right.
Um, she's pretty adventurous.
Uh, but, but she stillwants to support it.
So how do we connect again, how dowe map that connection, that gap?
How do we get regular peopleinvolved to participate?
So that's part of the other.
(35:51):
Piece of the conference.
Mm-hmm.
A third part is what technologiesare required and what
technologies are coming online.
So it traditionally, especially in deepwater, you need big ships, you need
humans, you need expensive equipment.
It's a lot of dataprocessing for a lot of data.
And it takes a really long time.
(36:12):
So that's the traditional,well, what else is available?
What else do we need?
Right?
Right.
Maybe this is a call to action todevelop new technology, which is why
young people coming, young engineersand inventors and scientists are so
important to have, because young peopleoften have the best imaginations, right?
Oh, absolutely.
And so part of the Tuesday morning on the.
(36:32):
28th will be to talk about technologiesthat are coming online, and I
know Victor Vesco will be there.
He's going to an announce orshare more about his amazing, uh,
innovations that he's been working on.
We've also got artificialintelligence specialists who will
be there, people who are making deepocean, long, uh, range vehicles.
(36:54):
We've got shallower water,short range vehicles.
Swarm technology and, and othersort of complimentary technologies
that go along with all ofthat, even to process the data.
And then in the afternoon of the28th, we've got real technology.
I'm not, the other stuff isn't real, butlike hands-on, uh, what do you call it,
(37:16):
like a show and tell almost down at theCoast Guard station where people will be
able to see some of this stuff in action.
Uh, see other complimentary technologiesthat maybe isn't related to bathymetry,
but it's still related to theocean, and that's an opportunity
for the public and the media tocome and really see this stuff.
Yeah.
And, and that's so important to,because it makes it tangible and makes
it a little more, um, understandablethan something that's abstract.
(37:40):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It, it looks like, uh, I mean,it looks like a lot of fun.
It looks, it looks like a wide variety,not your typical, uh, symposium that
you see with a lot of, uh, uh, tech.
Uh, industry, uh, and I think this is,this is something that's really great.
Looking at funding options.
Look, it looks like it hits thegamut, like communications, funding,
uh, the actual technology of it all.
(38:02):
Uh, it, I, I really enjoy thataspect of, of putting it there and
all in the landscape of an oceanbackground like Victoria, uh, in bc.
It's just such a, such a perfect,uh, perfect place to put it.
Um, uh, I love it.
I love the aspect.
Um, and I, I'm, and I'm glad thatyou mentioned communications because
I, I meant to include that as well.
There is a whole sessionaround communication.
(38:24):
Yeah.
'cause that's, that's a challenge.
Of, now that we understand maybe thevalue and, and the challenges and,
and the practical approaches thatwe could take, but a big problem,
a big, big challenge in this wholecommunity is the communication piece.
Mm-hmm.
How do we reach.
People like my mom, howdo we reach policymakers?
How do we reach perhapswealthy people or mm-hmm.
(38:45):
Hedge fund managers who have clients thatwanna support and contribute to this.
How do we reach those people?
Uh, because the, the old method of mappingthe ocean floor is really important.
Isn't that effective?
Sometimes I think we need somenew and clever ways for how
we can reach these people.
Yeah.
And as someone who's intocommunications, I feel, you know,
(39:07):
it's, it's really interesting because.
When I look at comments, when I postcertain, uh, videos or, or my po like,
like the video podcast or audio podcast,and I see the comments, sometimes you
don't, you don't expect what peoplewho are not involved in oceans or
conservation or exploration, they have avery different view of how things look at.
(39:28):
A lot of it's like, what,how is it important to me?
You know, a lot of it is, is is apersonal thing, and so it's like how
do you make mapping the deep sea?
Personal to the people who are,who are there, who are watching it
without putting it out of reach.
'cause I think a lot of people think likemapping something that, that deep is not
(39:48):
gonna affect them in any kind of way inthe future or anything in the deep sea
is not gonna affect them in the future.
So I think that's the challenge is like,how do we make it personal to them?
How do we make it as like, youwant to be a part of this because
of this without being threatening.
You know?
It's like if we don't mapit, the world's gonna end.
You know what I mean?
Like they, because people just.
I'm not gonna listen to that because Idon't like, I don't want to hear that.
(40:11):
But they want to know whyit's important, you know?
And I think, and I think that's validand I think, but I think it's also the
challenge because the, the direct, youknow, function of mapping these areas is
not gonna help them personally for themost part, other than maybe satisfying
the need to, to get that information andto help other things in that process.
So it's a matter, I think that'sthe challenge is trying to get them.
(40:34):
See it for themselves andhow important it's, right.
Well, one way that it makes it personalis, uh, there's two sides to this.
Yeah.
One is through the financial benefit.
So if someone donates money to anonprofit like MAP apps mm-hmm.
Well, then they get a charitable tax.
For sure credit for that.
(40:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for many people that matters, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
That because they want to donatesomething that's for a cause.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that they support.
So, so that's one aspect.
So there's like a, a very tangiblepersonal benefit or corporate
benefit by donating to a nonprofit.
Another benefit is that.
(41:16):
Mapping like this always needs to be done.
There's always even in mm-hmm.
Harbor, it's constantly being surveyedand resurveyed because the ocean
floor is a dynamic environment.
Yes.
It's changing.
However, that being said, it'snever been done the first time.
Yeah.
And so we have to recognize that there,there is something about human nature
(41:38):
where we want to explore the undiscovered.
Mm-hmm.
And the ocean floor.
Remains undiscovered.
Yeah.
For the most part, over 70%.
Yeah.
So how do we get people, and I thinkpeople will want to be a part of it,
and if they have their tiny littlearea that they say, I was involved
(41:59):
with that, and there's the picturehanging on the wall behind me.
Mm-hmm.
That shows that I was responsiblefor that, or I participated with.
My third year university class or my,or my sixth grade class, or a group
of neighbors and friends or a hedgefund that I was with that funded and
(42:20):
supported the exploration of thatpiece of the ocean floor because once
it's done, once we've done it once.
We'll never be able to do it.
Yeah.
Again, in the same way.
And so there's something finite about it.
Yep.
Like, like the little tickers thatyou see on the side of the YMCA, you
know, with the, with the thermometergoing up and up with each, uh, $5,000
(42:42):
donation that comes in until theyreach their goal, we can do the same.
Yeah.
So as we continue.
To progress towards a hundredpercent, then that's less opportunity
for people to get involved.
Yeah, agreed.
I do think that's where theemotional connection comes in.
Yeah.
This idea of I'm part of thelast great exploration on
earth and it is the last one.
(43:04):
Right, because we've done everything else.
We've done all the land, we've doneall the ice, and we've done lots of
things, but we haven't done the oceans.
And it's, there's a lot to do.
There is a lot to do, no doubt in my mind.
Uh, and, and it starts with,you know, following map the
gaps, learning at the symposium.
(43:26):
If you're interested in this kindof avenue, uh, whether you're
involved within the, the mappingindustry or the ocean industry.
Or you're, you're involved personallyand you want to find out more.
Uh, the symposium isOctober 27th to the 28th.
That's correct.
20 October 27th, 26th to the 29th.
26th to the 29th.
My apologies.
October 26th to the 29th, uh, in Victoria,uh, bc Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
(43:50):
Uh, this is, you know.
I would love to invite you back, Tim,to talk more about mapping and getting
into the details of what it's gonnalook like to, to map these, uh, these
areas and, and why it's so important.
Uh, so I'd love to invite you back onto, to discuss more, uh, maybe in, in,
in August, we'll have you on for, foranother podcast, if that's okay with you.
And, uh, it'll be a lot of fun to,to be able to explore more, uh,
(44:13):
of the Deep Sea and to see whatwhat there is to, to look out for.
So, uh, looking forward to having you backon if, uh, if you're willing, of course.
Yeah.
Great.
Thanks, Andrew.
It was, uh, it's been, it's been apleasure to speak with you and of
course I'd be, I, I would welcomethe opportunity to come back.
I'm always happy to talk about this stuff.
Like, like anyone who's passionate aboutit, I have short things to talk about.
Awesome.
(44:34):
So if you're willing to have me,I'd, I'd love to come back and
talk more about it, so thanks.
Yeah, absolutely.
We'll put the link, uh, for people toget more information on the symposium.
It's at ocean floor explorer.org,but I'll put the link so that
people can, uh, get access to it.
Uh, and until next time, Tim,thank you so much for joining us.
Great.
Thanks Andrew.
Bye for now.
Thank you, Tim, for joining uson today's episode of the How
(44:54):
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
It was great to be able to talk toyou about Map the Gap, something
that is very important to me as well.
Obviously important to you and should beimportant to you, the audience member.
And I would love to hear what youthought about the interview, what
you think about Map the Gaps.
Is this something you'd beinterested in participating in?
Whether you can volunteer yourtime or whether you can donate
(45:15):
a certain amount of money.
To maybe like sponsoring a piece ofan ocean that needs to be mapped.
I would love to hear from you if youwanna DM me on Instagram at how to
Protect the Ocean, I would love to hearif you would be interested in doing that.
Or you can email me by going tospeak up for blue.com/contact
and just fill out the form.
Email me.
I would love to hear fromyou, but other than that.
(45:37):
I would love for you togo to map the gaps.org.
I'll put the link in the show notes tocheck out what MAP the gaps is all about.
And I would also like for you to goregister for the Map the Gaps Symposium.
If you go to map the gaps.org/symposium,you can click the registration
button and you'll register there.
Again, I will click that in the show notesor in the description below, depending on
(45:57):
how you are watching or listening to this.
But other than that, thank youagain to Tim for joining us.
We'll have him back on because Iwanna talk more about Matthew gaps
and why it's important to discuss.
And link to the ocean bottom and makingsure that we are mapping the ocean bottom.
I'm looking forward to having him back.
But in that, I wanna thank you so muchfor joining us on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Angela, one fromthe true nor strong and free.
(46:20):
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
Most of the planet is ocean.
Yet over 75% of the sea floorremains unmapped in high resolution.
The deep sea is earth's finalfrontier, home to ancient life.
Vital ecosystems and untapped discoveries.
Without maps, we can't protectwhat we don't know exists.
Threatened coral reefs,biodiversity hotspots.
(00:20):
Or submarine landslides.
Oil and gas can drill, cables canbe laid, and mining can begin all
in areas we've barely explored.
Map the gaps brings together theglobal ocean mapping community
to close this knowledge gap.
Through technology, science andcollaboration, they chart the unseen to
inform policy conservation and innovationmapping isn't just about data, it's
(00:46):
about equity, inclusion, and sharedstewardship of our ocean commerce.
Indigenous voices, small islandnations and emerging ocean leaders
are crucial to this global effort.
With each mapped ridge or trench, weunlock climate clues, disaster risk,
insights, and marine management tools.
'cause of better Ocean map meansa better future for nature,
(01:08):
for science, and for all of us.
Today I'll be speaking to Tim Kernsof Map the Gaps on this episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, andthis is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean,how you can speak up for the ocean,
(01:29):
and what you can do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
And I'm gonna tell you somethingthat I discovered really recently.
Map the gaps is one ofthese projects that.
Doesn't always see the big, bright lightsof, you know, the news or of the main
focus of what people are talking aboutwhen we talks about exploring the ocean,
but mapping gaps in the ocean, mappingthe deep sea is extremely important
(01:53):
and crucial for our entire existence.
Let's be honest, this issomething that needs to happen.
We need to map the gaps, and I'mso excited to be speaking with Tim
Kerns, who is from Map the Gaps,but is also a former teacher of mine
when I did my GIS Analyst AdvancedDiploma in 2003, 2004, at the Center
(02:14):
Geographical Sciences in Nova Scotia.
When I was a kid, when I was doingmy master's, I did this diploma.
I met Tim.
He has this.
Energy around him thatyou can't duplicate.
He loves to talk about exploration,loves to talk about sea floor, and
this is just a perfect project for him.
Perfect opportunity for him, not onlyto discuss the map the GAP symposium,
(02:35):
but also discuss the future of Mapthe gaps and why we need to map.
The gaps.
It's gonna be a lot of fun.
This interview.
I can't wait for you guys to see theinterview if you're watching this
on YouTube or you're listening tothis on your favorite podcast app.
But definitely this is oneyou don't want to miss.
If you want to know the future ofOceans and why we need to map the
gaps, this is the episode for you.
(02:56):
So here's the interview with Tim Kerns.
Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
Hey Tim, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk about Map the gaps?
I am always ready totalk about map the gaps.
Awesome.
Well, this is a very special episodefor me today because Tim and I, not
only are we gonna be talking aboutmapping the ocean, which is something
(03:17):
that's both a passion of ours, but Timwas a teacher of mine when I actually
did my GIS Analyst, advanced diplomaat COGS University in Nova Scotia.
He taught me remote sensing.
We had a great time in your class, Tim.
It was always fun.
Not only did we get to know you in theclass, but we also got to know you,
like in the lab, around the campus.
You were a lot of fun just aswell as all the other teachers.
(03:39):
And it was great, uh, to be ableto see it and then come, you
know, 20 over 20 years later.
We're not gonna say how old weare, but you know, 20 years later.
Here we are talking on the podcastabout mapping and looking at deep
sea oceans and why we need to mapthese gaps that we have in the ocean.
I am super excited to be able to talkabout this, but before we do, Tim,
(04:00):
why don't you just let the audienceknow who you are and what you do.
Okay.
Well, thanks Andrew for the introduction.
And I will also say it's, it's alwaysreally, uh, very rewarding to me.
I mean, I taught for five years Yeah.
At, uh, the College of GeographicSciences, which is now part of
Nova Scotia Community College.
And, uh, it's very rewarding to knowwhere students ended up in their careers.
(04:23):
So it's great and a littlebit happenstance, the
happenstance that here we are.
Something, something many years later andyou're highly successful in your career.
Thank you.
And I just think that's great and what agreat opportunity we have to chat again.
Absolutely.
After these, uh, after these long years.
So, uh, thanks And, uh, my name'sTim Kerns and I've been with
(04:44):
Map the Gap since 2019, whichis when the company was founded.
I've developed my whole careeraround ocean related technology
and almost always around ocean.
Floor mapping or ocean floor exploration.
So rewind back to when I lived in Ontario.
Yeah.
And I was in, uh, university and Idid a geography undergrad and didn't
(05:07):
really know what I wanted to do with it.
I knew I liked mapping, Itook an oceanography course.
Hmm.
And that opened my eyes Yeah.
To the world of oceanography.
And even though I grew up inOntario, I immediately had this.
Inexplicable love for the ocean, uh, thatI'm sure still my parents scratch their
heads over and I knew that I needed to goout and dis and do ocean floor mapping.
(05:31):
Yeah.
That's what I wanted to do.
And so I was very fortunate.
Uh, and I went and I actuallywas a student as well at the
College of Geographic Sciences.
Yeah.
Or COGS as people say.
And although I did a remote sensing.
Uh, advanced diploma, I actuallytailored most of my work around ocean
floor mapping, and it was just, I wasjust a sponge of information and, uh,
eventually got hired at the Bed BedfordInstitute of Oceanography mm-hmm.
(05:54):
With the Canadian HydrographicService, where it was a fire hose
of knowledge and training and, andthe beginning of my career really.
In this, uh, fascinating technology.
So that's, that's, that was alittle bit of where I was Yeah.
At the beginning of my career.
And I've done a lot ofthings over the years.
I've taught, as you mentioned, I'vebeen in software development, uh, I've
led project teams and consulting teams.
(06:16):
I've run companies and I'vesupported companies and worked
in hardware and software.
And most recently at a nonprofitdoing amazing work around marine
observations in the Great Lakesand supporting Lakebed 2030.
And, uh, now I'm, uh, still supporting Mapthe Gaps, which is really a non-profit.
Yeah.
It's mostly volunteer run and hasbeen since 2019 and Map the Gaps
(06:39):
was kind of founded out of the ShellOcean Discovery XPRIZE competition.
Hmm.
Which, uh, I was part of ateam that started in 2016.
Yeah.
And this was a think of a bad news Bears.
Uh, uh, kind of a ragtag group ofpeople from all over the world.
Uh, we had almost no money, butwe were very generously supported
(07:00):
by the Nip on Foundation.
Mm-hmm.
Who supported our team.
We put together a submission anda proposal to the Shell Ocean
Discovery xprize, and our team endedup winning the whole darn thing.
It was quite remarkable.
Uh, we were the underdog and westill pulled it off, and after
that we wanted to keep the spiritalive of doing amazing things.
Yeah.
With.
(07:20):
A disparate group of peoplefrom all over the world.
Yeah.
And boom, map the gaps was formed.
Amazing.
Just to go back, I forgotthat you grew up in Ontario.
What university did you go towhere you took oceanography?
I went to University of Windsor, whichI don't think is known for oceanography
program, but it had one course, yeah.
In maybe third year.
And, uh, and I loved it and it was great.
(07:40):
Love it.
Well, it does have a good fisheriesprogram, if I'm not mistaken.
Like I remember that was oneof my universities I went to.
I went to Guelph, but, uh, no, Windsor wasreally good in their, in their biology and
their like physical sciences and stuff.
And, and, and that's awesome.
Um.
Now with, with map the gaps, Imean, with all your, with all your
information, like, like, uh, all yourexperience, I should say, and, and
(08:00):
the value that you have brought toevery position that you've been in.
Like you've had a pretty wide breadthof, you know, from teaching to, you
know, hardware, software developmentto, uh, running companies and so forth.
When MAP the Gap idea cameto you and your colleagues.
Did it, was it, was it your ideaor was it just a bunch of people
(08:23):
sitting around at a conferencebeing like, we, we need to do this.
Like this is something that's gonna,like how did the idea come to be in 2019?
Oh, that's a great question.
I think really it was agroup, it was a group effort.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna claim any sort of, uh,ownership or, or anything like that.
Uh, there was several of us who were partof the leadership of the XPRIZE team.
(08:46):
Um, I had also been running, uh.
An annual event on called,uh, the Map the Gap Symposium.
Mm-hmm.
That had been started in 2016.
Uh, that was an affiliationwith Jeb Co. Right.
And uh, really I think therewas just a general momentum of
wanting to keep this spirit alive.
Yeah.
But also wanting to formalizethe symposium a little bit.
(09:07):
So I'd say some of my closecolleagues of the leadership from
the XPRIZE team and myself, we said,what's the best way to do that?
Really the best way to do thatis forming a legitimate company.
Yeah.
A notfor profit.
Yeah.
Uh, where the rules are very clearin terms of any work that we do
is in the science domain, right.
Any data we collect is publicly available.
Um, and then have access to thisnetwork of people all around the world.
(09:32):
Yeah.
Who can come in, come out, they canparticipate when they can or not.
And that's the beauty of avolunteer based organization.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not to say it'llalways be volunteer based
because we are trying to raise.
Some real capital, right?
So we can grow the company, uh,to do more of what we've been
doing for the last six years.
And yeah, and this is, this isalways, that interests me 'cause
I've, I've known a lot of nonprofitsthat have grown out of symposiums.
(09:56):
So, so first symposium was in Mountthe Gap symposium was in 2016.
And then, and by 2019 you're like,let's formalize this a little bit more.
Let's put a company around it, anonprofit organization around it.
When you ran the first, when youguys ran the first symposium.
Uh, to 2019.
What made it so that that waslike, this is what we need to do?
(10:18):
Was it just, was it increasing inmembership and increasing in, in
participation from other people?
Was it other people being like, Hey, weneed to do, like, was was the sort of the
final, um, resolution of the symposiumbeing like, we need to do something more.
We need to do more things, or weneed to really formalize this.
What made that.
Come that idea come about where it'slike, we need to formalize this and
(10:41):
put it under a structure, like anonprofit organization like Math Gaps.
Right?
Well, like many things in life, thesimplest answer is usually the best one.
And in this case, it was avery practical consideration.
Okay.
Which was there were expenses incurred.
That required a business.
(11:02):
Gotcha.
That makes sense.
Required a credit card.
Uh, but it, that was, I mean, weprobably could have continued on, right?
But another thing happened between2016 and 2019 as well, which was
the success of the symposium grewand was attracting more people.
Uh, so we, we needed to, to beable to put on a bigger event with.
(11:25):
More things and food and beverageand activities and attract speakers.
And so all of that ofcourse requires capital.
And it rent from, I think in 2016we had maybe 50 or 60 people attend.
And by 2019 we were having 150 people.
Wow.
Uh, come to the events and thenwhen we went through the COVID era,
(11:46):
we had over 600 people tuning in.
'cause it was all live streamed Of course.
And so the event itself grew Yeah.
And just warranted practicalconsiderations for sure.
Like having a proper, a dedicatedwebsite, having a credit card to
pay for things, having the abilityto sign contracts, but it was also
attracting a whole new audience.
(12:06):
Mm-hmm.
Back in 2016, it was a verysmall group of people who were
very familiar with each other.
By 2019, our percentage of peoplewho were attending a symposium
for the first time was at 80%.
So we recognized that we wereattracting new people to the symposium
year over year, which was great.
Yeah.
Because they were gettingexposed to ocean floor mapping.
(12:29):
Mm-hmm.
Which is a relativelyunknown, I would say.
It's not a technology, it's arelatively unknown activity.
Yeah.
Many people think thatthe oceans have been met.
Yeah.
And that's one of our largest barriersthat my colleagues and I in this community
have is because they see Google Earthor they see the base map from Esri.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Or wherever.
Or they see the pictures inNational Geographic and they think,
oh, but it's already been done.
Mm-hmm.
We say, well, not really.
Yeah.
And it's, it's as, it's very interesting.
It's like these, these assumptions thatwe think that have been done because
Yeah, it makes sense to do them.
So people are thinking, of course we have,we've, we've mapped them and we know.
(13:13):
Probably what we need to knowabout, about the deep, which we'll
get into in just a sec, because weknow that, that that's not true.
The, uh, you mentioned the increase ofpeople that are coming and the makeup of
people, you know, mapping the gaps and,and looking at ocean floor exploration.
Looking at, at the science that canhappen, the discoveries that can happen,
(13:35):
um, the opportunities that are available.
Who are the, like what professionalbackgrounds are the people who, who
normally attend these symposiums andmake up sort of the membership or the
people within, within Maps the gaps Now.
Mm-hmm.
That's a great question.
Um, well, it, it's evolved.
(13:57):
Mm-hmm.
Over time.
So I would say historically ortraditionally, the people who are involved
in any sort of ocean floor explorationand mapping fall into scientific and go.
Camps, people who are doingthis for hydrographic purposes.
Mm-hmm.
Which is nautical charting, safety ofnavigation, and, um, uh, protection
(14:17):
of people and vessels at sea.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, then there's also exploration, uh,sorry, like mineral exploration or.
Oil and gas exploration.
Mm-hmm.
Or root survey for, uh, whereto lay cables and pipelines.
Yep.
Right?
Yep.
You need to know whatthe bottom looks like.
There's a lot of work around benthichabitat and understanding the nature
(14:38):
of the sea floor, so we know whatbiology and marine life, uh, lives
there and, and calls that their home.
Um, and then there's also a lot of.
Complimentary science that goesalong with that better understanding.
Tsunami modeling, understanding seismicand plate tectonics, and all of these
influences that affect the oceans andultimately earth, um, come from this
(15:01):
foundational data set of bathymetry.
So the professionals who are involved are.
Survey engineers, they're governmentofficials or their graphers or baths.
Mm-hmm.
Um, they're scientists,they're oceanographers.
It's a really wide range ofpeople who, um, get involved.
And in the symposium we alsostarted attracting a new audience
(15:26):
member, which was young people who.
Maybe had a background like yours in GIS.
Yeah, and were really interestedbecause two other things happened in
the late teens of, uh, as it relates tothe ocean, but probably three things.
One was the general population of earthlike society became critically aware that.
(15:50):
Uh, the oceans are perhaps in harm.
Mm-hmm.
And we need to do a better jobof protecting them writ large.
Yeah.
And so awareness of the oceanenvironment, things like the garbage
patch and pollution and warmingtemperatures, were all becoming
more predominant in the news media.
Mm-hmm.
And becoming on people's minds.
Um, the Jeb Co. Jeb Co, which is thegeneral IC metric chart of the oceans.
(16:15):
Partnered with the NIP onFoundation to create a project
called the Seabed 2030 Project.
So this is supported by Jeb Co.And the NIP on Foundation and
the Seabed 2030 project has beenphenomenal in raising awareness about
the need for ocean floor mapping.
Yep.
And just how little of it has been done.
So all of that happenedafter 2016, and then the UN.
(16:38):
Has a decade of ocean science, which isall around, you know, 10 years all around
ocean science and ocean technology and,and the needs of our, of our own planet.
So I think all of those things culminatedinto attracting a new audience for
groups like map the Gaps and thesymposium, but not just map the gaps.
It's just, it's all over, uh, youngpeople who want to be involved.
(17:00):
They want to contribute, they want to puttheir energy into this, learn more so they
can do more and take responsibility and.
Action for the health of our own planet.
Mm-hmm.
And that's, and that's interesting.
So as the, the people changed andincreased, did the mission for Map
the Gaps change, like as it wasformed in 2019 officially, you know,
(17:23):
you probably had like an idea in thesymposium and there's probably different
themes throughout the, for eachsymposium, what was like the initial.
Mission of Maps, the GA map, thegaps when the symposium started.
And how did, did it, did it changewhen you actually created the entity
as we know it now, as map the gaps?
Uh, that's a great question.
(17:44):
The initial mission was a,to put on the symposium.
Yeah.
Every year, another part of the missionwas to develop partners and help build
this network of companies, organizations,and individuals who wanted to support.
Ocean floor mapping and exploration,um, through helping map the gaps.
And then a third part wasactually participating.
(18:06):
In and coordinating actual emissions.
Hmm.
And so this is people going out on boatsor remotely processing data, uh, that are
in support of bathymetry data collection.
Hmm.
And so we did all three ofthose things and continue to
do all three of those things.
I would say the mission expandedover the last five years,
(18:27):
and this is where we are now.
We're at this point where werealize that there's really.
Maybe none, but certainly notvery many organizations that
are advocating or actively doingsystematic ocean floor exploration.
Right.
So certainly Seabed 2030.
Once again, phenomenal.
(18:48):
Yeah.
Uh, growth and advocacy for the need andhas also done a great job at aggregating
available data sets and in many cases,uh, supporting or partnering with other
organizations who are collecting data.
Mm-hmm.
That then contribute that to thispublic database, uh, accessed
via Seabed 2030 map the gaps.
Wants to take a, a bit of a step further.
(19:10):
We want to actually organize and do.
Systematic ocean floor exploration.
Hmm.
And so there's a program that we'relooking to develop now, and that's part of
what we're talking about at the conferencethis fall in October, is how do we connect
individuals perhaps with money Yeah.
Or organizations to participate in oceanfloor exploration in some capacity.
(19:35):
And part of our new, part of ournew mantra, I guess, is that who can
participate in ocean floor exploration?
Anyone can.
Right?
You don't have to be anoceanographer, you don't have to
be a super wealthy individual.
You don't have to have a boat.
You don't have to be belongto a hydrographic office in a
company or in a, in a country.
(19:55):
Anyone can participate inOcean four exploration.
Yeah.
And there's various waysthat they can do that.
And that's interesting.
You know, in the nameitself, map the gaps.
We're looking at mapping thedeep sea, but let's be honest.
The gaps are pretty big right now.
We're not talking about smallgaps like small swaths of, of
areas that have not been mapped.
(20:16):
There's a lot of area in the deepsea that has not been mapped,
so it's a large undertaking.
How do you, where do you begin?
With this mission of, of bringing peoplein and, and like, I guess when the
people come in, what are, what are theirthoughts when they initially come in?
(20:37):
Some of these professionals that youhave on Engineers, Beres, you know,
GIS, you know, young gi s people,people who have been doing GIS for a
long time, like yourself and like, whatis the idea around this to like, where
do we begin and how do we proceed?
Obviously the money you mentioned likethe initial funding, but after like
where do we begin in terms of mapping?
(20:58):
Right.
Well, let's talk about the name.
Yeah.
Because the name means more than justthe activity of mapping the ocean floor.
When we came up withthe name, map, the gaps.
And originally it started, Ididn't, I didn't invent the term
map the gaps that started years ago.
Mm-hmm.
Through people in the Jeb Cocommunity to talk about this
(21:18):
concept of mapping the gaps.
But when we decided to name the companyMap the gaps, it was because it was
more than just mapping the ocean.
It was also about mapping those gapsor connecting those gaps between.
People.
Mm. And that is one ofthe things that's missing.
If you go back historically at who hasdone this type of work, it was graphers.
(21:40):
It was militaries and nas.
It was science or mineralexploration and oil and gas.
It was a relatively small, and eventake it a step further, it was mostly.
White Western.
Yeah.
Wealthy countries Yes.
Or individuals who are doing it.
Yeah.
So we, it's a, the earthis a big, it's a big place.
Mm-hmm.
And the oceans are big and they touchborders of countries that do not have
(22:03):
the resources that we may have mm-hmm.
In Canada and North America and others.
So how do we get those people involved?
And that was part of the original missionof MAP the Gaps, was connecting other
people who may not have the resources.
Mm-hmm.
So that they can also participate.
In this grand endeavor.
So now when people come to us and theysay, Hey, I'm a GIS person and I want
(22:25):
to get involved, well, there was justa fantastic post on LinkedIn the other
day by Natalie Gilson that talks about.
Um, I'm participating in something,yet I'm behind the screen.
I'm on my laptop orwhere my keyboard Right.
And yet I still, I still wanna bepart of it and I am part of it, but
I don't feel like I'm part of itenough, and that's a great sentiment.
(22:47):
So true.
Uh, you know, I haven't, I haven'tbeen on a survey vessel, survey
myself for a couple of decades now.
Really?
So true.
We do.
You know, and yet I'm still involved.
Yeah.
And so when people come tous, in some cases, it's.
I want to get out there.
I wanna be on a boat.
I want to collect dataand know what it's like.
And that's, and that's great.
We'll try to find opportunitiesand connect people so they can
have that, even if it's part-time,even if it's one-off and they, they
(23:11):
may love it or they may hate it.
Mm-hmm.
And that's okay.
They're still gettinginvolved for other people.
It's supporting, not just map the gaps,it's supporting other organizations.
So maybe we refer them to supportCED 2030 or, or academic, or we get
help get them into programs so theycan get some additional training.
Yeah.
Um, that's, that's certainly another way.
(23:32):
And then in many cases we have peoplewho support map the gaps directly
through supporting our social media,helping build the website, right.
Doing fundraising, connecting and growing.
The partner community, um, helping withthe symposium, that's always, yeah,
of course that people can get involvedand support it, but it is the task
of mapping our oceans is monumental.
(23:54):
And it could be multi-decade oldeven if we were to start tomorrow.
Um, and it's also expensive, however,relative to other things that humans
have done, it's not that much.
Right?
Yeah.
So.
We fund and do space exploration.
Mm-hmm.
And have for many decades now it's timeto turn or expand some of that energy
(24:17):
and those resources onto planet Earth.
And I don't think we canjust rely on governments.
And there there's two reasons for that.
One, governments aren't spendingenough money or, you know, they're
not investing in this area.
Mm-hmm.
But even if they did, they would onlydo it within their national boundary.
True.
Right.
They're inclusive economics, soit's very difficult otherwise.
Yeah.
(24:37):
A lot of the ocean isin international waters.
Mm-hmm.
The deep blue.
And so how do we fund that?
How do we get people out there?
And it is, it's very important to do it.
Mm-hmm.
It's never been done.
No, and it's never been done.
Uh, it, what's, what's interesting toois I've, we've, you know, we've seen the
debates, you know, is it easier to workin space or, or why explore space when we
(25:00):
haven't even really explored the ocean tothe depths of that we need to, you know?
And, um, the, the, the, thefocus should be on the ocean.
Obviously we are biased.
We're on this podcast.
It's how to protect the ocean.
So we're, we're definitely biased,but there's a, there, there is
an inherent truth in we need toprotect what's on this planet.
You know, we know we're, we'redoing damage to the planet.
(25:22):
We don't even know the severity yet.
Of total damage that we've, we'vedone or total dis like influence
around the ocean that we've done.
'cause we don't know muchabout the deep 'cause.
We haven't even mapped some of the basicsof, of, of some of the, the deep areas
that we, that we want to find out about.
Um, I feel as though, uh, and, andI'd love to ask you, do you find that.
(25:44):
Governments are quick to explore morewhen there's an opportunity to benefit
from it in either natural resourceextraction or some sort of, you know,
whether it's, it's a, uh, renewableenergy, like tidal energy or looking at.
Deep sea mining.
We're quicker to explore that thanjust to explore for the sake of
(26:05):
knowing where, you know, what is downthere and, and what we have and, and
the, just the depths and, and thebathymetry and the, and the landscape
of it all, or the seascape of it all.
Do you find that there is more of a, ofa push when there's something to gain
for these governments or, uh, do youfind, do you, do you think otherwise?
It'd be interesting to hear your thoughts.
(26:26):
'cause you've, you've been arounda lot of different types of like,
private and, and public entities,uh, and talking about this.
Well, I think like anything in life,people are motivated or organizations
are motivated by different factors.
Mm-hmm.
So some of those couldbe economic factors.
Mm-hmm.
(26:46):
And some could be.
Um, scientific or conservation,some could be exploitative.
Yep.
And so it, it really runs the gamut.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't think nationalgovernments are any different.
Right.
Uh, even at the beginning of mycareer when I was with the Canadian
Hydrographic Service, we had partneredwith Clearwater Fisheries mm-hmm.
(27:07):
Mm-hmm.
Berg to better understand benthichabitat by doing sea floor mapping.
Yeah.
Right.
And at that time, areas likeBrowns Bank and Georgia's Bank and
German bank off the coast of NovaScotia, they'd never been mapped.
It was very poorly understood in terms ofwhat the sea floor morphology looked like.
Right.
And yet the fishing community waswell aware that there were some areas
(27:31):
that high had higher yields Yeah.
Than others for their catch.
And so part of that partnershipwas definitely economic.
Yeah.
Um, but it was also scientific.
Mm-hmm.
So it was understanding, collectingthe science to help better
influence the economic side.
And in the end, fishing presumablybecame more efficient, but also safer.
(27:54):
In a weird sort of way becausethen they weren't fishing in areas
where there were sensitive habitat.
Right, right.
Because they were at leastaware of where the habitat was.
And before that it was a crap shoot.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
I, I think that's just one exampleof a private partner, private public
partnership that had really greatbenefits for the Canadian government
(28:16):
in terms of collecting all thisamazing data that better informed.
Um, the, the public mm-hmm.
And themselves, scientists onwhat was there, but it also helped
efficient community as well.
And so I think another,so that's one example.
I think another example is the UNConvention on the Law of the Sea.
So countries being able to betterdelineate their boundaries based on
(28:40):
the foot of the continental shelf.
And you know, I mean there's all kinds ofvariables that go into that, of course.
And I'm not an expert at, atall on it, but that was one.
Motivation and impetusfor national governments.
Mm-hmm.
To rally around the conceptof better understanding.
Their sea floor adjacent to theircoastline going out however many miles
(29:02):
was necessary so that they could make aclaim that would ultimately help define
and protect their national sovereignty.
In terms of a boundary.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, but also all that data was collected,you know, phenomenal value and for.
Uh, kind of follow on ordownstream science that could be
(29:22):
done as a result of that data.
And that's what we keep coming back towith bathymetry or this ocean floor data.
Really, it's a foundational data set.
It's like.
If we don't have that, yeah.
Then how can we possiblydo everything else?
For sure.
And so, I mean, you know, andthat's, that's one of the largest
justifications for collectingit in the first place, right?
(29:43):
Is that there's so much complimentaryand additional work that can
happen as a result of just startingwith this foundational data set.
To get data, you have to go outand map and map these, these areas.
Uh, and it, and it becomes that.
It becomes a challenge in itself.
It can be, it can be, uh, expensive.
It's to, to know where to start, knowwhere to be, like where to go, how is map
(30:07):
the gaps going to define that of priorityareas of where to, uh, of where to map
first or will that be defined by theperson who's willing, or the company who's
willing to fund it and just be like, Hey.
I wanna know more aboutthis, this specific area.
How are we going to prioritizethis at Map the gaps?
(30:28):
Well, it's a great question.
Map the gaps is not going toarbitrarily make priority areas, right?
That's for sure.
Right.
But I do think that we're lookingat exploring some new ways to
identify priorities, and some ofthat could be through gamifying.
How it's done.
So imagine a landscape where youhave small little hexagons and
(30:52):
some individual gets to choosewhich hexagon they wanna map.
Right.
Or they, they would like to see mapped.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe they're picking it becausethere might be a plane crash in there.
Yeah.
Or a shipwreck or someother sunken treasure or.
Maybe there's some underwater canyonor volcano, or maybe they just
like that area because it's got50 degrees south and 50 degrees.
(31:15):
You know, there's some sort of otherinteresting, uh, aspect to it for why
they chose that particular spot on theocean that they want to sponsor and adopt.
And now.
That doesn't mean we're justgonna turn around and send a
ship out there and go map it.
Obviously we need critical mass ofcourse, before any activities can be done.
But I think priority setting could bedone through a variety of different ways.
(31:37):
One is just through, um,money or, or vote even, right?
Yeah.
Like where should we go first?
Another could be through,um, interesting areas.
So perhaps there's, we know that.
Through course resolution data,let's say something that you
might see on Google Earth.
Uh, we know there's likesome sort of canyon something
(31:58):
there, or some sea mounts.
We want to go explore that.
So maybe that'll attract moreinterest, uh, that could help
with the priority setting.
I don't know.
I think that, I think that's anarea to be developed in terms of
how do we set priorities for whatneeds to be mapped when so much
of it hasn't been done at all.
Absolutely.
That's, I think that'sa, it's a great question.
(32:18):
I think I love the way to explore the,the different ways of, of doing things.
Gamifying a little bit through votes orthrough where people want to go if they,
if they're interested in a specific area.
I think it's great.
It's a great start anyway tosee where people are interested.
Plus it democratizes the whole thing.
I think that's a, uh, I love thatway that that'd be my preference.
Yeah.
Just to put it on the recordthat, that, that's my preference.
(32:40):
I think that's a great way of doing it.
Um, and there's just so manythings that you can, you can do,
uh, when, when going above that.
And then of course, the other partof about the gaps, which is an
important part, which could helpwith where to set, you know, where
they go forth, is the symposium.
And, and so there's a symposium, uh, everyyear is that it's an annual symposium
and there's gonna be one in 2025.
Is that the, that's the idea, correct.
(33:01):
It, it's been almost, almost annual.
We've, we've had a few, uh, gaps Okay.
Here and there.
Yeah.
But yes, there will be one in 2025.
It's called Ocean Floor Explorer.
Okay.
And it's in Victoria, British Columbia.
Yeah.
October 26th to the 29th.
And it's being co-hosted, um, byCoast, which is, uh, a, a, a Blue
(33:22):
Tech Innovator and uh, um, grouphere in Victoria, British Columbia.
That helps companies.
Get off the ground, and it's alsoforms a network of, uh, companies
and individuals in the area.
Interesting.
Okay, cool.
Now, when if, if people are interestedin this topic and they want to go to
the symposium, what, what would, whatshould they expect at the symposium?
(33:44):
Uh, this year it falls into a fewbroad categories, and one is, uh, the
challenges and the value of doing oceanfloor exploration in the first place.
And so that is, that is a goodquestion that people often ask is,
well, why, yeah, why should we, andthere's two sides to that answer.
One, one of it is.
(34:06):
Very practical, scientific,economic, uh, safety of life.
You see all those, all those amazingreasons for why we should do it.
Mm-hmm.
And then the other one is a little,a little less quantitative and
it's actually more qualitative.
It's because it's earthand we've never done it.
And so that's the emotionalconnection of we need to.
(34:27):
Explore our own planet.
We need to understand itin order to protect it.
And in order to do that,we need to measure it.
And none of that's been done.
So part of, part of the first portionof the conference is to talk about the
value of it, the value of doing it, andthe value of the data that is there.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
(34:47):
I mentioned already about allthe downstream, um, benefits that
come from collecting this data.
Another part of the conference is totalk about, well, how could we fund it?
There are different models,certainly national governments.
Um, put money into it.
There's some high net worthindividuals that have funded
their own missions or others.
(35:08):
Uh, there's other NGOs and nonprofits thatare participating, certainly academia.
So is there, are there other models orcan we continue to explore those models?
One model of course is crowdsourcing it.
Yeah.
So crowd funding it.
Really?
Yeah.
How do we get individuals?
How does my mom Yeah.
Participate.
She's not going to, actually, mymom probably would go out on a
(35:30):
ship, but you may not have theopportunity to go out on a ship.
Right, right.
Um, she's pretty adventurous.
Uh, but, but she stillwants to support it.
So how do we connect again, how dowe map that connection, that gap?
How do we get regular peopleinvolved to participate?
So that's part of the other.
(35:51):
Piece of the conference.
Mm-hmm.
A third part is what technologiesare required and what
technologies are coming online.
So it traditionally, especially in deepwater, you need big ships, you need
humans, you need expensive equipment.
It's a lot of dataprocessing for a lot of data.
And it takes a really long time.
(36:12):
So that's the traditional,well, what else is available?
What else do we need?
Right?
Right.
Maybe this is a call to action todevelop new technology, which is why
young people coming, young engineersand inventors and scientists are so
important to have, because young peopleoften have the best imaginations, right?
Oh, absolutely.
And so part of the Tuesday morning on the.
(36:32):
28th will be to talk about technologiesthat are coming online, and I
know Victor Vesco will be there.
He's going to an announce orshare more about his amazing, uh,
innovations that he's been working on.
We've also got artificialintelligence specialists who will
be there, people who are making deepocean, long, uh, range vehicles.
(36:54):
We've got shallower water,short range vehicles.
Swarm technology and, and othersort of complimentary technologies
that go along with all ofthat, even to process the data.
And then in the afternoon of the28th, we've got real technology.
I'm not, the other stuff isn't real, butlike hands-on, uh, what do you call it,
(37:16):
like a show and tell almost down at theCoast Guard station where people will be
able to see some of this stuff in action.
Uh, see other complimentary technologiesthat maybe isn't related to bathymetry,
but it's still related to theocean, and that's an opportunity
for the public and the media tocome and really see this stuff.
Yeah.
And, and that's so important to,because it makes it tangible and makes
it a little more, um, understandablethan something that's abstract.
(37:40):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It, it looks like, uh, I mean,it looks like a lot of fun.
It looks, it looks like a wide variety,not your typical, uh, symposium that
you see with a lot of, uh, uh, tech.
Uh, industry, uh, and I think this is,this is something that's really great.
Looking at funding options.
Look, it looks like it hits thegamut, like communications, funding,
uh, the actual technology of it all.
(38:02):
Uh, it, I, I really enjoy thataspect of, of putting it there and
all in the landscape of an oceanbackground like Victoria, uh, in bc.
It's just such a, such a perfect,uh, perfect place to put it.
Um, uh, I love it.
I love the aspect.
Um, and I, I'm, and I'm glad thatyou mentioned communications because
I, I meant to include that as well.
There is a whole sessionaround communication.
(38:24):
Yeah.
'cause that's, that's a challenge.
Of, now that we understand maybe thevalue and, and the challenges and,
and the practical approaches thatwe could take, but a big problem,
a big, big challenge in this wholecommunity is the communication piece.
Mm-hmm.
How do we reach.
People like my mom, howdo we reach policymakers?
How do we reach perhapswealthy people or mm-hmm.
(38:45):
Hedge fund managers who have clients thatwanna support and contribute to this.
How do we reach those people?
Uh, because the, the old method of mappingthe ocean floor is really important.
Isn't that effective?
Sometimes I think we need somenew and clever ways for how
we can reach these people.
Yeah.
And as someone who's intocommunications, I feel, you know,
(39:07):
it's, it's really interesting because.
When I look at comments, when I postcertain, uh, videos or, or my po like,
like the video podcast or audio podcast,and I see the comments, sometimes you
don't, you don't expect what peoplewho are not involved in oceans or
conservation or exploration, they have avery different view of how things look at.
(39:28):
A lot of it's like, what,how is it important to me?
You know, a lot of it is, is is apersonal thing, and so it's like how
do you make mapping the deep sea?
Personal to the people who are,who are there, who are watching it
without putting it out of reach.
'cause I think a lot of people think likemapping something that, that deep is not
(39:48):
gonna affect them in any kind of way inthe future or anything in the deep sea
is not gonna affect them in the future.
So I think that's the challenge is like,how do we make it personal to them?
How do we make it as like, youwant to be a part of this because
of this without being threatening.
You know?
It's like if we don't mapit, the world's gonna end.
You know what I mean?
Like they, because people just.
I'm not gonna listen to that because Idon't like, I don't want to hear that.
(40:11):
But they want to know whyit's important, you know?
And I think, and I think that's validand I think, but I think it's also the
challenge because the, the direct, youknow, function of mapping these areas is
not gonna help them personally for themost part, other than maybe satisfying
the need to, to get that information andto help other things in that process.
So it's a matter, I think that'sthe challenge is trying to get them.
(40:34):
See it for themselves andhow important it's, right.
Well, one way that it makes it personalis, uh, there's two sides to this.
Yeah.
One is through the financial benefit.
So if someone donates money to anonprofit like MAP apps mm-hmm.
Well, then they get a charitable tax.
For sure credit for that.
(40:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for many people that matters, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
That because they want to donatesomething that's for a cause.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, that they support.
So, so that's one aspect.
So there's like a, a very tangiblepersonal benefit or corporate
benefit by donating to a nonprofit.
Another benefit is that.
(41:16):
Mapping like this always needs to be done.
There's always even in mm-hmm.
Harbor, it's constantly being surveyedand resurveyed because the ocean
floor is a dynamic environment.
Yes.
It's changing.
However, that being said, it'snever been done the first time.
Yeah.
And so we have to recognize that there,there is something about human nature
(41:38):
where we want to explore the undiscovered.
Mm-hmm.
And the ocean floor.
Remains undiscovered.
Yeah.
For the most part, over 70%.
Yeah.
So how do we get people, and I thinkpeople will want to be a part of it,
and if they have their tiny littlearea that they say, I was involved
(41:59):
with that, and there's the picturehanging on the wall behind me.
Mm-hmm.
That shows that I was responsiblefor that, or I participated with.
My third year university class or my,or my sixth grade class, or a group
of neighbors and friends or a hedgefund that I was with that funded and
(42:20):
supported the exploration of thatpiece of the ocean floor because once
it's done, once we've done it once.
We'll never be able to do it.
Yeah.
Again, in the same way.
And so there's something finite about it.
Yep.
Like, like the little tickers thatyou see on the side of the YMCA, you
know, with the, with the thermometergoing up and up with each, uh, $5,000
(42:42):
donation that comes in until theyreach their goal, we can do the same.
Yeah.
So as we continue.
To progress towards a hundredpercent, then that's less opportunity
for people to get involved.
Yeah, agreed.
I do think that's where theemotional connection comes in.
Yeah.
This idea of I'm part of thelast great exploration on
earth and it is the last one.
(43:04):
Right, because we've done everything else.
We've done all the land, we've doneall the ice, and we've done lots of
things, but we haven't done the oceans.
And it's, there's a lot to do.
There is a lot to do, no doubt in my mind.
Uh, and, and it starts with,you know, following map the
gaps, learning at the symposium.
(43:26):
If you're interested in this kindof avenue, uh, whether you're
involved within the, the mappingindustry or the ocean industry.
Or you're, you're involved personallyand you want to find out more.
Uh, the symposium isOctober 27th to the 28th.
That's correct.
20 October 27th, 26th to the 29th.
26th to the 29th.
My apologies.
October 26th to the 29th, uh, in Victoria,uh, bc Uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun.
(43:50):
Uh, this is, you know.
I would love to invite you back, Tim,to talk more about mapping and getting
into the details of what it's gonnalook like to, to map these, uh, these
areas and, and why it's so important.
Uh, so I'd love to invite you back onto, to discuss more, uh, maybe in, in,
in August, we'll have you on for, foranother podcast, if that's okay with you.
And, uh, it'll be a lot of fun to,to be able to explore more, uh,
(44:13):
of the Deep Sea and to see whatwhat there is to, to look out for.
So, uh, looking forward to having you backon if, uh, if you're willing, of course.
Yeah.
Great.
Thanks, Andrew.
It was, uh, it's been, it's been apleasure to speak with you and of
course I'd be, I, I would welcomethe opportunity to come back.
I'm always happy to talk about this stuff.
Like, like anyone who's passionate aboutit, I have short things to talk about.
Awesome.
(44:34):
So if you're willing to have me,I'd, I'd love to come back and
talk more about it, so thanks.
Yeah, absolutely.
We'll put the link, uh, for people toget more information on the symposium.
It's at ocean floor explorer.org,but I'll put the link so that
people can, uh, get access to it.
Uh, and until next time, Tim,thank you so much for joining us.
Great.
Thanks Andrew.
Bye for now.
Thank you, Tim, for joining uson today's episode of the How
(44:54):
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
It was great to be able to talk toyou about Map the Gap, something
that is very important to me as well.
Obviously important to you and should beimportant to you, the audience member.
And I would love to hear what youthought about the interview, what
you think about Map the Gaps.
Is this something you'd beinterested in participating in?
Whether you can volunteer yourtime or whether you can donate
(45:15):
a certain amount of money.
To maybe like sponsoring a piece ofan ocean that needs to be mapped.
I would love to hear from you if youwanna DM me on Instagram at how to
Protect the Ocean, I would love to hearif you would be interested in doing that.
Or you can email me by going tospeak up for blue.com/contact
and just fill out the form.
Email me.
I would love to hear fromyou, but other than that.
(45:37):
I would love for you togo to map the gaps.org.
I'll put the link in the show notes tocheck out what MAP the gaps is all about.
And I would also like for you to goregister for the Map the Gaps Symposium.
If you go to map the gaps.org/symposium,you can click the registration
button and you'll register there.
Again, I will click that in the show notesor in the description below, depending on
(45:57):
how you are watching or listening to this.
But other than that, thank youagain to Tim for joining us.
We'll have him back on because Iwanna talk more about Matthew gaps
and why it's important to discuss.
And link to the ocean bottom and makingsure that we are mapping the ocean bottom.
I'm looking forward to having him back.
But in that, I wanna thank you so muchfor joining us on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Angela, one fromthe true nor strong and free.
(46:20):
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!