Ocean Book You Need to Read: Amanda Leland’s Vision for a Sea Change

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On today's episode, we're gonna bediscussing this book, it's called

(00:02):
Sea Change, unlikely Allies, and aSuccess Story of Oceanic Proportions.
It's all about catch fisheries.
If you wanna know more of what Catchfishery is and what it actually
will do to help preserve fisheries,help protect the ocean, you're
gonna wanna watch this episode.
So that's what we're gonna be talkingabout in today's episode of the
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Let's start the show.

(00:23):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and thisis the podcast where you find out what's
happening with the ocean, how you canspeak up for the ocean, and what you
can do to live for a better ocean.
By taking action today, we're gonna betalking about this book, sea Change.
It's great.
I'm gonna show it one more time here.
It was sent to me.
I get sent a lot of books, you know,and I get emails from a lot of people.

(00:44):
I'm very privileged to have thatand to be able to get free books
and to be able to read them.
When I started to read this book,this is not what I expected.
I expected something on conservation,so it'd be more like, you know, this is
what we need to do to protect the ocean.
This is the frameworks andeverything that we have to do.
This is not this book.
This book is a story.
This book is a story about a fishernamed Buddy where we meet him at a

(01:06):
very young age where he's fishing withhis father, and I don't wanna give
any kind of spoilers, but he grows up.
And he becomes a fisher.
But he, there's a lot of stuff that goeson between that, which I highly recommend
that you read this book to find out.
But you see his journey as not onlybecoming a man and an adult, but
becoming a fisher, and the evolutionof becoming a fisher to eventually
becoming an advocate to protect theocean and protect fisheries, and

(01:29):
becoming like a conservation hero.
This is something that is important toknow, not only for me as a scientist and
as a conservationist, but also somebody.
If you're listening in this audience, andyou may not be involved in this field.
I know I have a lot of people whoare, but I have a lot of people
in this audience who aren't.
We always hear bad things about Fishers.
We always like, why are we hearing that?
This is a book that gives youthe perspective of Fisher.

(01:51):
Sometimes you may not like what theperson has to say, but other times you
might just be like, yeah, you know what?
This is actually pretty cool.
This is something I want to know aboutand I wanna know more fishers like this.
And there are a lot of fishersthat are just like that.
And so it's really important that we getto meet them, we get to hear their story.
And this is one of those stories.
This is a true story and it's somethingthat I feel is very important and
Amanda is on the podcast to discuss it.

(02:11):
She was one of the co-authors, JamesWorkman was her other author, who's
the journalist and who wrote most ofthe book, but Amanda provided a lot of
the information and worked it with him.
She's the executive director of theEnvironmental Defense Fund, a huge
organization that does a lot of work.
And it was a pleasure to be able to speakto her and get her perspective on this.
Not only did we talk about the book,but for the most part we talked about

(02:31):
how she became an executive director.
'cause I was curious, but also talkingabout what Environmental defense does
and what type of programs they have.
But very much focusing onthe Ocean Fisheries program
and how they partner with.
Unlikely heroes, you know,unlikely people that you don't see
being partnered with and havingthose discussions early on with.
And I think that's really importantand we're starting to see that.
And then if you've been listening tothe podcast anytime recently, there's

(02:53):
been a focus on building trust, buildingrelationships with local communities,
with fishers, with stakeholders, andbringing in conservation right at
the beginning so that everybody'sperspective is being heard.
That's really important when we have thattype of participation, when we talk about
conservation in a local area, or even ina larger region, or even a national, like
in a country or even internationally.

(03:14):
So it's very important tohave these conversations and
to know their perspective.
So without further ado, here is theexecutive director of the Environmental
Defense Fund, Amanda Leland, discussingwith us this book See Change.
Unlikely heroes and a successstory of oceanic proportions.
This is something thateverybody needs to read.
In my opinion.
It's on sale as of this recording,and you can pick it up very quickly.

(03:36):
I think you can even pre-orderit if it's not on sale, if you're
catching this at a different time,but something to really listen to.
So here's Amanda, enjoy theinterview and I'll talk to you after.
Hey Amanda, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk about thebook, sea Change and Catch Shares?
I am more than ready.
I'm excited to be here.
Thank you for having me, Andrew.

(03:57):
Oh, I am so excited.
Now I get emails quite a bit to,for people to come on the show and
it was so great to see someone fromEDF, from Environmental Defense
Fund to say, Hey, you know what?
We have somebody for you.
Uh, she just co-wrote a book.
It's about sea change.
We'd love to send it toyou so you could read it.
And I'm like, I'm in.
I do get a lot, you know, I do getsome books to be, you know, to that

(04:18):
come to me and I, and I, I perusethem and stuff, but I have to admit,
Amanda, when I started readingthis, I didn't know what to expect.
I started reading this andI'm like, this is really fun.
I'm into this, this is a bit likea novel in a way, but it's true.
Like this is like, thisis like a, a true story.
And it was, it was, it was very cool.
I haven't finished the book, justfull disclosure, I haven't finished

(04:39):
the book yet, but I am excitedto talk not only about the book,
but the contents of the book.
I don't want to give away anything, butI, I want, and I don't want spl 'cause
I want people to read the book, but whatI want to do is dive into catch shares
and why they're such an important tooland why you want to write about them.
You and James want to write about them.
James, James Workman.

(04:59):
And so, um, we're gonna get into allthat, but before we do, I want the
audience to get to know who you are.
Um, so, uh, Amanda, why don't you justlet us know who you are and what you do.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm, well again,it's exciting to be here.
Um, so my name is Amanda Lelandand I'm executive director of
Environmental Defense Fund, whichmeans that I run the organization.

(05:21):
Um, and EDF is a longstanding,um, international.
Environmental organization.
We have offices around the world,um, and we really think about and
work towards finding the ways thatwork for people in the planet.
So mm-hmm.
We, we, we have a lot ofunlikely partnerships.

(05:43):
One of the things we're gonna talk aboutthat comes through in the Sea Change
book, it's finding common ground andworking towards solutions together,
even with people who you think youmight have less, um, in common with.
And, and really, because fundamentallywe actually generally share the

(06:04):
same needs and the same goals.
And we might not start there, butwe can find those paths and see
changes about finding one of thosepaths for ensuring that we have
a healthy and productive ocean.
Awesome.
Now, being an executive director ofan organization like Environmental
Defense Fund, that's a big deal.
Like that is like when I got, whensomebody said like, Hey, you know, the

(06:24):
executive director of EnvironmentalDefense Fund wants to come on the podcast?
I was like, whoa.
I told my wife, I was like,this is, this is big news.
Like this is, this is awesome.
Like it's always great to talk to peoplefrom your staff 'cause they're always,
they're always great and they're alwaysso passionate and everything like that.
But an executive director,I'm like, this is a big deal.
When you started out in this lineof work, like when you started your
education path and, and things like that,did you expect this is where you were

(06:48):
gonna end up as an executive director?
Is that, was that the plan you wantedto be in charge of, of an organization?
I've never really, thisis the bad truth about me.
I've never really been aperson who's tried for a
certain title or a certain job.
I'm driven a hundred percent by gettingthings done and making the world a better

(07:08):
place, uh, to the extent that I can.
Mm-hmm.
I, I have been a lifelong fan.
I actually became an EDF memberwhen I was 13 and the seventh grade.
Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I have a long, I have a long story withEDF that predates any jobs whatsoever.
Yeah.
Um, and I never really thought, youknow, in high school, college that this

(07:33):
would be the kind of work I would do.
I was right.
Tracked into science.
I was, I was a marine scientist.
That's sort of the, the beginnings mm-hmm.
Of a career as working in, in, um,marine advocacy and conservation.
Um, but yeah, it's been a long journey andagain, not really motivated by the title.

(07:54):
I'm happy to have it.
It's a real honor.
Of course.
Yeah.
Um, I, I'm, what I love aboutEDF, they're, you know, is we have
this incredible platform to get tosolve the biggest problems facing
people in the planet, and mm-hmm.
We have an incrediblysmart and talented staff.

(08:15):
We have really strong and, um,generous supporters who've been with
us on some really tough journeys.
And they, they stay with us and wehave these incredible partnerships.
And again, working with fishermen, youknow, when we started that work 15, 20
years ago, it was nobody, like, it was,it was not the way conservation was done.

(08:39):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and there's stories like that inEDFS work over and over again of how
we find these unlikely partnerships.
Becoming allies and changing the world.
Yeah.
I, you know, I'm going back to you being13, being part of, you know, joining EDF.
What does that look like as a 13-year-oldjoining an organization like that?

(09:03):
Like, what was, what was your role?
Was it like a volunteer role?
Was it just you got newsletters?
What, what does that look like?
Because, you know, there's a lot ofpeople, my, my kids are teenagers.
They're 16 and turning 18, you know,and I tell them like, you know, how
do you feel like connected to theplanet, connected to, um, you know, the
ocean or just connected to wildlife?
And, and you know, I've alwaysthought like, there, there are

(09:26):
programs out there that were,you know, uh, kids can, can join.
But as a 13-year-old,what does that look like?
And, and, and why EDF when you joined?
So, um, I am, I'm really big intoevidence and progress and experience.
Um, and in the seventh grade wedo, I did a science fair project.

(09:47):
Mm-hmm.
I became very, um, excited aboutthe potential to, for recycling.
Now, this was a long time ago.
I might be older than you think.
This was a long time ago.
This is when, like in the US thenightly news was like the garbage,
uh, ships that nobody couldfigure out where they would go.

(10:08):
And, and there was this plucky EDFscientist, um, who was always on
the news talking about the fact thatwe needed to do more recycling to
deal with all this trash and, um.
And I just thought he was the best.
Like he was so inspiring to me.
It was a great idea at the time.

(10:29):
Right?
He was.
So, I, I mean, that tellsyou what kind of person I am.
I got really excited about one ofour, our, our nerdy scientists who
was standing on a big pile of trash.
Um, and that's what got me,that's what got me going.
So I actually did my researchof all the organizations who
were focused on recycling.
'cause I got so into it.
EDF was doing the most by far at the time.

(10:51):
And I sent my $30 in to become a member.
Yeah.
And I got, um, all the coolswag or the, now it's the merch.
Um, yes.
And, and I just, I wore it around withpride and I showed off to everybody
that I was like a member of thisincredibly impactful organization.
And, and that stuck with me for years.

(11:13):
You know, it, I, um, it sort ofwaxed and waned a little depending
on what my interests were.
But yeah, it was with me the whole time.
And it turns out that that reallyplucky scientist had an office
two doors down from mine whenI started at EDF 21 years ago.
And he retired a couple years ago.

(11:35):
And I was able to be athis retirement party.
Yeah.
Did did you tell him like he,he's the reason why you Oh yes.
He knows.
Yeah, he definitely knows.
Um, that's awesome.
Now, like, as a 13-year-old, you know,um, there are a lot of 13 year olds who
are not necessarily focused on this.
Like, were your friends involved as well?

(11:55):
Like, were you able to rope inyour friends or they're just kind
of looking at you like, oh, theregoes Amanda in her recycling?
Uh, yeah, definitely no friends.
I think, um, I don't know.
I was maybe a little out of step with
what was going on around me.
I, I don't know.
Um, but it was, it was, um, it over time,you know, I definitely attracted people

(12:18):
into thinking about and, um, becomingpart of the environmental movement.
So while I wasn't so good at that inthe seventh grade, right, it de it
definitely became part of who I amand, and how people think about me.
And who I asso associate myself with.
Mm-hmm.
Not just other environmentalists,but people who fundamentally care

(12:39):
about, um, ensuring that theirkids have more opportunities and a
cleaner, healthier planet to live on.
Okay.
Than, than we do today.
That kind of like legacy and generationalaspect is really important to me.
And it was the generationalaspect, um, that got me really
excited about the oceans.
It was my grandfather whotaught me how to fish and to

(13:01):
captain a boat when I was seven.
Wow.
Um, like my passion for theoceans started really early.
I was out there fishingblue fish with him Yeah.
When nobody else was fishingblue fish, um, right at the time.
So anyway, I guess those early beginningsare important and that has shaped my
life and my career and I think it.
I think it matters to other people too.

(13:23):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Now, working at EDF, I assumeit's one of the, like the places
you've worked the longest, um Yes.
Outta your career, um, as you startedto work there and, and you, did you
just start to sort of climb the, the,the nonprofit ladder and, and, and what
interested you in, in growing in that way?
Because, you know, you, you werea marine scientist and Yeah.

(13:45):
You said that there's a lot of greatmarine, like a lot of great scientists
in general that work at EDF and, um, youcan do a lot of great things in different
positions there, but as you get, you know,a lot of scientists don't, like, as they
grow into an organization or a governmentdepartment, you get more administrative,
administrative roles and you get aaway from doing the actual science.
Um, and each role is important to when youdo it, but some people don't like that.

(14:10):
What, what attracted you tocontinue to grow within, within the
organization into a position like this?
So that story for me starts actuallybefore I joined EDF 'cause I didn't come
in as a marine scientist, so my ah, okay.
My shift from science into conservationhappened before that I was actually in

(14:32):
grad school, um, and I was working as ascientist in the Gulf of Maine mm-hmm.
Uh, with sea urchin fishermen.
And I was confronted in a fishery that waslargely collapsed or collapsing mm-hmm.
In the coast of Maine.
And the fishermen would say tome, if I don't take the last

(14:52):
urchin, someone else will.
And it's a common thing we hear.
Right, right.
And I, you know, I was in my earlytwenties and I was like, just the.
The ridiculousness and the painin that kind of a statement.
Mm-hmm.
Like, nobody should have to eat their seedcorn in order to feed their family today.

(15:14):
Right.
That is a, there's just, there'sno way that that's gonna work.
And so in the, at the time and,and that period fisheries were
collapsing all around the country.
And I was sort of in this mind frameof, I don't wanna be the scientist that
writes the epitaph for these productivefisheries and the health of the oceans.

(15:36):
I wanna be on the side of solutions.
So that brought me to take afellowship in Washington, DC where
I worked for a member of Congressand I learned more about policy.
Mm-hmm.
And from there I came to EDF as sort ofa marine advocate, ocean advocate with an
understanding of both science and policy.
Gotcha.
So that's how I came into EDF.

(15:58):
And then over time, I've hadnine different jobs here.
That's unreal.
So, yeah, so I've, I like, Iguess the, the ocean analogy
here is hook, line, and sinker.
I don't know, like, I kind offeel like I've done, I've done
all the things, um, one can do atEDF, um, and in different ways.

(16:18):
And still every day my job is different.
Even 21 years on as executivedirector ev every day it's different.
It, it, it provides a, acool challenge, you know?
'cause you never know what toexpect, just like the ocean.
You never know what to, what it's gonnaspit at you or what it's gonna, what's
gonna reveal for you at that time.
Um, that's a, that's a really interesting,you, you mentioned at the beginning,

(16:40):
uh, you mentioned at the beginningof this, of this episode that, you
know, you've, you've been motivatedby like trying to accomplish things.
How has that.
Evolved over your career?
Like you mentioned, you went fromscience to advocacy and like policy.
Now, you know, you're, you're more intoa, a leadership role, you know, driving

(17:00):
a lot of great scientists and advocates.
How has that evolved over,over your, your career so far?
I am, well, I guess I'm, you know, inthe, in the category of not trying, I've
never really set out to have a certainjob title or to do a certain thing.
I am, um, I care a lotabout getting things done.

(17:22):
I care a lot about makingthe most of what we have.
Um, and, and I'm also aperson who learns by doing.
And so I think that that has enabledme to take on more and do different
parts of this kind of a job indifferent ways over time without, um.

(17:43):
Without having the, always the formaltraining, you know, like, um, I didn't go,
I went to school to be a marine scientist.
I did not go to school tobe a nonprofit executive.
Um, and somehow I seem to be doing that.
So I people, I just actuallytalked to a young person yesterday

(18:03):
who's in her final year of collegelooking for advice, you know, career
advice, and I said, try everything.
Like you never know what's gonnastick and feel right to you.
So when you're presented withan opportunity, even if it
feels like it's not the logicalprogression, go ahead and try it.
'cause it may end up beingreally helpful to you in the end.

(18:26):
And I think that that's largelyhow I've progressed and how
I've gotten to where I am.
And again, I never thought.
As a 13-year-old, $30 a year member ofEDF that I'd become executive director.
Never thought that.
Yeah.
I often wonder too, like going fromthose types of positions to an executive
director, like how did you gain theskills and, and what skills do you think

(18:49):
really prepared you for a role like this?
Um, I think, uh, what you needin a role like this is an ability
to communicate, uh, in a waythat people can understand you.

(19:10):
So I think communication is oftenoverlooked and potentially one of
the most important keys to success.
I think being able to distill complexitydown into simplicity is part of that.
Um, and I think.
Reali recognizing that humansare humans and we're all in

(19:32):
the sha shared same place.
And we are often motivated by similarthings and working to find common
cause, um, and not try to createmore distinctions and more polarity.
I think actually finding ways to worktogether is incredibly important, um, and

(19:56):
being true to yourself and to the factsand making, in my view, sort of like the,
a lot of people ask about risk taking.
You know, what is my risktolerance in this kind of a job?
And I have a prettyhigh tolerance for risk.
If I also am focused on what theinformation that's available is telling me

(20:19):
about the situation or the need for whereEDF can be the most effective and where
there's a need for our kind of engagement.
So, so being able to think sort of inthe, at the, at the broad scale and
then bringing it down to how can weadd value and what is our, what is
our special offering to the world?
Because there's a lot of reallygreat impressive conservation and

(20:41):
environmental groups out there.
Yeah.
EDF, yeah.
EDF is one of many.
Right.
And so recognizing what we're good atand where we can make a difference is
important and, um, and really our legacyand our offering to the, to the world.
Wonderful.
Speaking of EDF, now we've, you know,we've, I've probably gone in a little too

(21:05):
much into your, your, uh, career, but Iwas curious though, and it's my show, so
I like to talk about this kind of stuff.
You get to call the shots.
Yeah, I get to call the shots.
Um, but I, I, I think what, what'sinteresting is EDF is, is such a great
organization, but for those who arenot familiar with the type of work that
you do, can you kind of like, summarizeand even, you know, maybe ex like, uh,

(21:26):
name off a couple of examples of someof the programs that you have working
and some of the work that you've done?
Yeah, so EDF is an organization thatsort of takes the big swings at the
toughest environmental problems.
We bring a pretty, um, broadtoolkit to solving those problems.
So we have, um, legal capacity, we havescientific capacity, economic capacity.

(21:52):
We work really closely withbusiness and communities.
So kind of like up anddown the, the whole chain.
All the way to the top, the top, youknow, businesses in the world to,
um, very discreet communities wherethere's solutions to be advanced
and you, and, and demonstratedthat serve as a beacon for others.

(22:12):
We do focus on models that are replicable.
Um, we like to engage where wethink we can drive impact at scale.
So that means like demonstratinga solution can work.
And then trying to bringit to the whole sector.
And that's important.
So some of those, and that goesback to that sort of that premise
that I said at the front oflike, finding the ways that work.

(22:33):
We are not, we are notdogmatic in the solution.
We are looking for what's gonnawork and make the biggest difference
in a way, and a way that's gonnawork for people in their wallets.
Like the, the fundamental affordabilityproposition of environmental solutions
is in, is important in this context.
Um, so some of the big areas wherewe focus, where you might see us, you

(22:56):
know, a little bit more prominently inthe public space, um, in particular,
is around reducing methane emissions.
Mm-hmm.
So methane, a lot ofpeople might not know.
Methane is a, uh, is a really, um, it's a,it's a greenhouse gas, so it's a climate
pollutant that is driving much of thewarming we're experiencing right now.

(23:20):
It has a relatively short life in theatmosphere, but it's very, very powerful.
Mm-hmm.
And so reducing those emissionsis really the best way to pull
the emergency brake on the climatechange that we're experiencing today.
And a much of those emissionscome from the oil and gas sector.

(23:40):
And so we work to reducepoint source emissions.
So like leaking infrastructurecould be a pipeline, it could be,
um, a gas line, it could be an, uh,an oil and gas development field.
Um, the reducing those emissionsright now is what can help us right
now in addressing climate change.

(24:02):
So we have for many years, beenworking to solve that problem,
um, with making some progress.
Um, yeah.
For sure, for some, uh, some progress.
Another area where we're very focused,um, is protecting, um, tropical forests.
So the second area we, the world canmake immediate gains on climate change

(24:25):
right now is, um, ensuring the protectionof tropical forests in reducing forest
burning, either through trying toclear land to do something else or for
gold mining, which is an increasinglybig part of the equation or wildfire.
So if you're, I, we are in, we areup in Canada and we are in trouble.

(24:50):
Yes.
Yeah, you are like Canada.
The, the, the fire seasons inCanada are just off the charts.
I was just the charts in Mainefor the last two weeks and.
There was no clear air there.
Yeah.
Um, and that is unheard of for Maine,which typically has, is outside of
those, you know, that windy pattern.
Yeah.

(25:10):
Um, and people over all over.
Well, just, just to add tolike the, the severity of it.
I live, uh, just outside of Toronto,where typically we get the smoke,
but we don't get the, the, the fire.
Um, but we're under fire bans,you know, even in our backyards.
Yeah.
They've just announced itthis week because it's so, we
haven't, we've barely had rain.
I think the first rainfallwe had was last night.

(25:32):
I don't even know how long it was.
I was asleep, but it wasn't long enough.
I'll tell you.
You know, like we justhaven't had any rain.
So it's a very, it's avery scary situation.
So definitely understand wherethat, that problem is coming from
and how hard it is to tackle itis, it is, um, emerging as mm-hmm.
Like the biggest, um, one of thebiggest challenges to solve at

(25:53):
this point because it, it affects.
All of us.
It affects nature.
Um, it upends lives in a minute, andit is also driving vast emissions that
nobody really has been thinking about yet.
Right.
Like the potential for wildfire toswamp some of the gains we're making

(26:16):
on addressing climate change is high.
So anyway, so forest protectionand, and forest management mm-hmm.
Are critically important and anarea where EDF is also focused.
And then of course there's ourwork on fisheries and oceans,
which I led for many years.
And now, um, work with others whoare handle, who are ably leading

(26:41):
that work at EDF with our partners.
That's amazing.
I mean, it's, it's, it, those arebig programs, big issues to tackle.
Um, you know, and, and you need somevery intelligent, some very motivated and
passionate people to be able to do that.
And definitely there'sno shortage of that.
Uh, at, at EDF, um, let's focusin, obviously there's a lot we

(27:01):
can focus in on, but let's focusin obviously on the, on the
fisheries and oceans side of, of it.
Um, you know, fisheries is ahuge problem around the world.
Overfishing is a huge problem.
There's a lot of, of differentareas even within that.
That we can, that we can go into.
Um, but you know, a lot, a lot of thetimes we really focus in on the amount

(27:21):
that's being taken outta the ocean,which is obviously is, is overfishing.
Uh, but we look at it froma conservation perspective.
How do we protect the stock?
How do we protect the species?
How do we make sure that it's gonnabe around so that people can fish
for years and years and years?
But really when we talk about fisheriesand, and I talk to a lot of people
who are not necessarily, um, familiarwith, you know, the ocean issues and,

(27:42):
and, and fisheries in particular.
They just want to conserve,they want to protect.
And so when, in, in this typeof scenario, often vilified are
the fishing communities, right?
And, and the, and the fishermen andfisher women who are out there, and
the fishing people who are out there.
You know, day in and day out in dangerousareas, uh, in dangerous conditions,

(28:05):
um, you know, trying to catch stuff.
And many of them are, are trying tojust catch, to feed their families to
make sure their communities are fine.
And when a, a stock collapse, you know,and I use on my podcast a lot with the
cod fishery collapse here in Canadaand in the northeast, in the northwest
Atlantic, uh, back in the 1990s, whichstill hasn't technically recovered.

(28:26):
It was devastating for those communitiesthat were dependent on those cod stocks.
Um, trying to prevent the overfishing,trying to ensure that fisheries are
conserved, but also trying to protectthe, um, the, the, the wellbeing
and, and the sustainability offishing communities to be able to
fish forever, um, is a complex issue.

(28:49):
And, and you know, you mentionedearlier that you know, you,
you often partner with.
Fishers and fishing communitiesand so forth, like the quote
unquote unlikely allies, youknow, in, in this type of game.
Um, let's just talk about like, why doyou, why do you think they're vilified
and why does Environmental Defense Fund,you know, use this approach to get,

(29:12):
be, to get the results that they do?
Well, I mean, I think it's hardto say why they're vilified.
I think, I think fundamentallythat happens when regulations are
established that, um, that basicallyput fishermen into a box and they

(29:38):
have very few choices for themselves.
And, and by that I meana regulation that says.
Um, the fishery can only catch so muchthis year, which means that, that every
fisherman is racing and to go out tocatch as much as they can, as fast as
they can, because when that limit isreached, they shut the fishery down.

(29:59):
And that's how fisheries in the USand Canada were managed for decades,
um, and other parts of the world too.
Right.
It's this like, it's, it creates thisrace and then the fishermen are in order
to be able to do their job and bring homemoney for their family and feed their
families, they're basically pushed tothis ultra competitive mindset mm-hmm.

(30:24):
Where it's like, I just have to getas much as I can, as fast as I can.
And, and then you have organizations inmy sphere, the environmental organizations
saying like, but the, but it's sticking tothe science is the most important thing.
I don't think.
And so I think it just creates thisfalse dynamic that you have to be
fighting between these two things whenfundamentally the fishermen and the

(30:48):
fishing communities don't wanna be inthe situation that I talked about with
those urchin fishermen of if I don'ttake the last one somebody else will.
Like, nobody actually wants to be there.
Right.
And there are other ways to do this soyou don't, so that they're not there.
And so our, my focus and our focushas been on trying to find those

(31:09):
other ways rather than trying toput the blame on the fishermen.
Mm-hmm.
And I think the other thing about thisis, um, you know, around the world
there are, there are 3 billion people,and I, we, I think we forget this.
Yeah.
In the, in the, in North America,we forget this point a lot.

(31:29):
Yeah.
There are 3 billion people who relyon seafood as their primary source
of protein, and they're typically themost vulnerable people on the planet.
They don't have a lot of other options.
There's not like an easy pasturefor them to put a cow out
into to have an alternative.
Um, and, and this is wherethey get their nutrition.

(31:51):
And so the idea that people are justgonna not fish also undermines the,
in my view, the reality of like,people need to eat then kids need
nutrition for their brains to grow.
And, and that's gonna happenwhether you tell them it's
protected or it's not protected.
And so the path forward for I thinkis about management that rewards

(32:16):
conservation for fishermen wherethey financially and community
wise benefit by, uh, conservation.
And then you get a better marriagebetween areas that are fished and
areas that aren't fished because thefishermen are, fishermen are more likely
to defend those areas that aren't fish.
If they know that they're gonna be able tocatch a certain amount or whatever mm-hmm.

(32:40):
Have that direct access andthat feedback loop over time.
That may have been a long-windedanswer to your question.
It was a complex question, so II it needed a long-winded answer.
I loved it.
Uh, I, I completely agree with you.
Uh, and it's, it's something that,uh, I hear, you know, all the time,
you know, I've, I've been on Buzz andmarine scientists myself, I've been on

(33:00):
boats with, you know, local fishermenwho are just, you know, they know
the lay of the water and the land.
They, they've been there for, youknow, they have generational knowledge
on how this fishery has behavedand, and the trends of the, more
than scientists a lot of the times.
And so it's imperative that we continueto work together, not only as scientists,
but as advocates, as conservationists,and as a team, you know, to be able to,

(33:24):
like, how do we get through this together?
And I, I completelyagree that I feel like.
People in North America often forget.
You hear a lot of people like, well, wejust have to stop eating, eating seafood.
And it's just that, just can't, thatwon't, like in reality, that won't
happen in, in a lot of places becausethey, like you mentioned, there's 3
billion people that depend on seafoodas their main protein source, and

(33:44):
there it's a nutritious source and,um, and it goes to a lot for child
development and, and everything like that.
And, um, that's an important aspectto, to how we, how we move forward.
And so working with them and not vilifyingthem, I think is a, is a much better way.
It's not always easy because some ofthese issues are complex and, and they
do want to be able to feed themselvesas well as feed their community and,

(34:06):
and, and be able to, um, be able to,to, uh, uh, uh, just live right and be
able to be happy as, as a, as a family.
Um, now.
There are parts of, as we get moreinto this, this catch share and the
book, um, you know, there are parts tophishing that are, are very different.

(34:29):
I, I think a lot of times it all,everything gets lumped up into phishing.
And so, uh, you know, in a lot of, uh,documentaries such as like Ocean by
David Attenborough that just came out,they talk a lot about the industrial
fishing, you know, where it's likefishing for the maximum processing at
sea, you know, for, for a length of time.

(34:50):
Uh, just trying to get as much aspossible, but often forgotten are the
artisanal and local fishers, you know,the indigenous fishers, the, the local
Canadian and American and Europeanfishers who are just trying to catch a
certain amount of fish so that they cansell it and feed their families, maybe
keep some for themselves and move on.

(35:11):
There's that divide how, like for from a.Perspective for EDF, how do you approach
those two types of phishing and, and I'm,am I missing something in between, uh, of
those two sort of categories of phishing?
Um, like is there, is there certain thing,like is is EDF focused on the, the local

(35:32):
fisher or are they focused also on someof the larger, more industrial type of
fishing, or is a little bit of both?
I'd say it's an all of the above.
Um, yeah, I think for sure the, um, whatthe character, there are some, I think, I

(35:53):
think there's some misunderstandings aboutsome aspects of industrialized fishing.
So if you, if you look into the Alaskaslash British Columbia Fisheries, um.
In the US and Canada, you'll seepretty industrialized, actually
quite industrialized fisheries.

(36:14):
Yeah.
Um, some of them have very deepconnections into native communities.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so this, I like it.
It is very much tied to, to localcommunity and local culture.
Um, and they fish cleaner and Hmm.
With maximum, uh, fish recovery.

(36:37):
So they use every part of the fish.
Gotcha.
And they don't throw anything over.
So they're basically utilizing everything.
And so if you look at the, thePollock fishery, which is the, the
biggest fishery in the United States.
Yep.
Um, it's, it's one of the bestmanaged fisheries in the world.

(36:58):
Wow.
And that isn't what people think aboutwhen they think of industrialized fishing.
And it is what provides.
A lot of the fast foodrestaurants with fresh fish.
Mm-hmm.
And I will happily go to McDonald'sand get a filet of fish sandwich.
Yeah.
Because it's, it's well managed.
'cause I know, I know wherethat, those fish are coming from.

(37:19):
And I know that that's a,a well-managed fishery.
So that doesn't mean everyindustrialized fishery in the world
or every boat in the world, youknow, is operating at the same level.
And in fact, probably that's not the case.
'cause it sets a very high standard.
Um, but it, it isn't quite the distinctionof industrialized versus artisanal.

(37:40):
And then this, then on the otherside, you've got, or, or in the
middle is probably the boats inthe Gulf of Mexico, which are
commercial fishermen working on boats.
But they go out overnight,a week at a time.
Um, they're not big, you know,uh, big, big and boats like you

(38:00):
would see in Pollock where they're,um, they're processing on board.
They're commercial fishermen,um, doing their job.
And then there, then there's, if youcould go even smaller to in, uh, Belize,
coastal Belize where they're out in a,you know, a, a small little, even some

(38:21):
would say skiff, some of them have onlyin the last couple decades moved from
a sale to a little outboard engine.
Um, often these fishermenhave more in common with each
other than you would expect.
'cause they are, they view them, I, Idon't wanna characterize them for them,
but what I've taken away from gettingto know fishermen in different types or

(38:44):
segments of the sector is that, um, theycare a lot about ensuring the long-term
longevity of their, um, industry.
And they, and, and they.
They have this, um, really important,you said sort of generational
knowledge, which I think is right.

(39:04):
Like their, their ability to seeinto an ocean that is otherwise
invisible to everybody else is amazing.
Uh, yeah.
They see things and they feel things andthey can interpret things in ways that
even a scientists struggle with sometimes.
So, um, it is true that thereare different types of fisheries

(39:25):
and they certainly have differentneeds and, and qualities, but I
think there's more in common thana lot of people often talk about.
Well, that's good to know.
You get something, you know,you learn something every day.
'cause I don't get to, to interactwith a lot of these different
styles of, of fishermen and,and the way they use things.
So obviously as technology increases,you know, it's supposed to be

(39:48):
more efficient and sometimes evenbetter, uh, for, for the fishery.
So it's good, it's good to know thatand it's, it's good to have that
differentiation or even understandsome of the similarities and
differences, uh, throughout that.
Now working with, with Fishers, uh, andunderstanding a lot of the different ways
that, you know, once they catch fish,what happens to that fish afterwards?

(40:10):
You know, oftentimes I rememberreading, I forget where I read this,
but I remember reading where, you know,fishermen in North Carolina would, would.
Catch their seafood, whetherit be shrimp or whether it
be fish of, of certain types.
And they would, you know, once theyunloaded off the dock, it would go into
a truck and it would go off to somewherein Northeastern, uh, US and it would go
maybe to New York, fishmonger or Sea, uh,uh, a restaurant or something like that.

(40:33):
But they wouldn't know.
They, if you asked the fisherswhere it would go, they didn't
necessarily know where it went.
Uh, and, and in that area in NorthCarolina, they actually started to add,
um, you know, like a, basically like a,a catch share kind of thing where people
can put money in and they would havean idea of like what they could get.
And they would, they would get some,some, some of the fish, so they would

(40:55):
know that the seafood would staylocal and the fishers would know
who's eating the seafood and youwould know who caught your seafood.
And it was really a nice,uh, community thing.
And, and it, it wasprofitable for both sides.
Um, you know, you get the, thecommunity got affordable fish and
seafood and then the fishers were ableto, uh, get money for that seafood
and see where their seafood goes.
It's, it's a really interestingidea, bringing it back to the local

(41:18):
and, and less like, let's shipit off, not know where everything
goes, but still make our money.
But a lot of people in the middle makethe money, the middle people, as they
say, make, uh, the money and then itkinda grows and grows and gets more
expensive and gets more expensive.
Why are Cat shares such, uh, aninteresting solution and a, and a growing

(41:39):
solution in a lot of communities, notonly in the US but all over the world?
Uh, why is that becoming more,it's almost like going back to
the local, you know what I mean?
It's like when, in our, in to, tomake it an analogy, it's like, in our
lives we rush everywhere and a lotof times when people say, if you want
to be more conservation focused, it'sbetter to kind of slow your life down.

(42:00):
You know, Dr. Wallace, j Nichols usedto talk about the slow coast and,
you know, slowing your life down andenjoying nature a little bit more.
I feel like this is kindof like the same thing.
Is it bringing it back localand hope that, you know.
And, and you get the benefits of that.
So why is this such a, um,uh, an important tool in, in
conservation for fisheries?

(42:22):
I think I, I, I like your point.
I think often we talk, we talkabout how, um, the people closest
to, to the problem are often thebest to come up with the solution.
Um, like we, what am I I, I'msitting here in this room.
What do I know, right?
Like, yeah, it's actually the people whoare, who are living and experiencing the

(42:42):
problem that are gonna be the most likelyto have a durable strategy for fix this.
Um, and I think what, so what shares?
I, I think catch shares is part,like one way for that to happen.
So if you think about, um, itenabling fishermen to have some, um,

(43:03):
agency basically over their, their.
Future.
This is fundamentally what it isbecause you're, by providing them
certainty that they can catch somuch in a year, which is mm-hmm.
What the share is, it's like thiscertainty of how much they can catch,
they can figure out how to catch it andmaximize their profits on the other end

(43:26):
so they could time their catch to whenthe market conditions are gonna be better.
They may get more price perpound at a certain time right.
Then, then they, if they were all outat the same time and coming back to
the dock with the same at the sametime, which creates a market glut
and then they get low, low prices.
And so to your point, like slowingit down actually gives the fishermen

(43:48):
more agency decision making agencyabout their own job and their own
economic, you know, potential.
They can also do valueadded, um, enhancements.
So you can think about, do you wanna, um.
Do you wanna change the type of fishinggear you're using to be able to market

(44:08):
to a more higher end crowd, right?
Like you can actually, you can do that by,by having certainty, you can fundamentally
shift your practice of fishing, whichtypically is gonna mean less waste, better
quality product, higher price per pound,and more ability then to negotiate with

(44:31):
whomever is buying your fish from you.
And you.
You see then forward contracting starting,you can, you can plan out not just this
fishing year, but future fishing yearsbecause you know that, that as long as
you don't violate the rules or go overyour limit, you know that next year
you're still gonna have that percentageshare and you can fish more next year.

(44:52):
And that driver actually at, at afleet level, when you think about
all the boats in one fishery thathave, have some version of shares.
Everybody then is incentivized toactually under fish the limit that year.
Mm-hmm.
Because they can fish more next year.
Right.
Because it's a percentage share.
So that's how you see thefishery rebuild so quickly.

(45:15):
Yeah.
And the fishermen earning ahigher profit almost immediately.
So it really is this likewin-win solution now.
It's not perfect.
Right.
Of course.
It doesn't solve everyproblem in the world.
Yeah.
Um, or even in the, in the fishery.
But it, it definitely, it, it definitelycreates that path by which fishermen do
better and the fish populations rebound.

(45:37):
And that's why I think it's spreadingaround the world because people are
seeing that it, it creates, um, avirtuous, virtuous cycle rather than a
perverse one that draws everything down.
Wonderful.
I love that ex that explanation.
Um, here's a question for you.
When, you know, when we talk, youknow, there's a lot of different

(46:00):
tools in the conservation toolbelt, especially around fisheries.
Marine protected areas is one of them.
And a lot of times when marine protectedareas are suggested, there's a lull
in the ability to catch, right?
Like they, you know, there may, theremight be in that area you can't catch
for a certain amount of time or you maynot be, be able to catch for a while
until the fishery starts to recuperate.
'cause it could be in that state,you know, where it needs to be.

(46:22):
When you implement a catch share, youknow, you're taking a percentage of,
you know, everybody gets a percentage.
But like you said, a lot of timesunder the percentage or maybe even
under what the quota it was initially,because you know you can fish more.
Is there, um, a delay in fishing?
So when a catch share is put in, dofishers have to wait a bit and then

(46:43):
they're able to fish, like, wait a seasonor, or what have you until, um, that
fish population recoup a little bit more?
Or can they still fish?
Just they can, they may not be ableto fish as much that year compared
to the next and the next beyond.
I don't know of a case.
There may be some that exist.

(47:03):
I don't know of a case in which a fisherywas entirely closed from day one of a new
cat share program being put into place.
Okay.
And that's a fundamentally a sciencequestion of like, well, how much phishing
is, is per, should be permittable basedon, you know, how much fish are out there.
So that's really a science question.
Um, what we do, what we have seen.

(47:25):
So in an extreme case thatEDF was very much part of.
So I can speak to this.
Um.
The West Coast of the United States,the Groundfish fishery, which is the
same complex of species that are in theBritish Columbia Groundfish fishery,
um, was in a state of collapse.
It was declared a federal disaster.
And these are, it's like a, it'sa complex of dozens of different

(47:49):
species, often very difficult to evendetermine what their differences.
Like it's very hard to speciate them.
Even when you get them on board, they alllook the same and they're super long live.
So you've got a long, very long livespecies, which, which should mean it
takes a long time to recover, right?
Like the recovery trajectory would bevery long 'cause it, 'cause it takes a

(48:13):
long time for them to get to maturitywhere they're gonna produce more fish.
Um, and when the, the West CoastGroundfish fishery cat share was
implemented, there were some of thesestocks, some species that were so
overfished that they basically had.
A a a zero catch limit.

(48:33):
Some version, it wasn't quite zero, butit was just, it was just shy of zero.
Right.
And these are fish that if they all schooltogether, so if you catch one, you're
gonna catch a whole boatload of them.
And if you catch a boatload of them,the entire fleet gets shut down
because you've, you've exceeded thelimit and the person who caught it is

(48:54):
probably gonna be out of their quota.
Right.
So what the fishermen did wasthey worked together to create
what was called a risk pool.
So they pooled their quota of thesesuper overfished species with the
recognition that if one persongets hit, everybody's gonna suffer.
So we want, we wanna beable to spread that around.
And at the same time, then, well, aroundthe same time, they worked collectively

(49:18):
to figure out where those superdepleted species were most likely to be.
And they created these marine protectedareas that they all stayed out of.
Mm-hmm.
So in doing so, they neveractually hit one of those,
what was called a disaster tow.
And these super long live superrare fish rebounded very quickly.

(49:41):
Hmm.
Because it was in their, it wasthe incentives were set up so
that they would protect them.
Unreal.
This is such a cool thingand it's such a cool, yeah.
You know, like it's such a cooltool to use and it brings it
back, like I said, locally.
And, and I just love that.
But it's also a tool that not a lot ofpeople who are not necessarily involved

(50:02):
in fisheries or like, just like sortof the, the average person, you know,
who's running around and eating seafoodlike they want, and, um, you know,
trying to just survive life as, as, aswe live and, and, and stuff, uh, but
are not super involved in fisheries.
They don't really know about cat shares.
Uh, and so there's ways to communicate it.
And, and, and one way that I love,uh, to make it really entertaining

(50:24):
is the way you did it with, uh, your,your, uh, co-writer James Workman.
Uh, was this book here, uh, sea Change.
I'm gonna put it up here on the videoso if, if people are watching, uh,
on, on YouTube to take a look at it.
And I really love the approach.
That you took, that you both tookon this, uh, it's called Sea Change,
unlikely Allies, and a success storyof oceanic proportions, which I love.

(50:46):
Um, but it was all about catch shares,but it was, there was a story behind
it, and it followed this fisherbuddy and he, his entire life from
childhood all the way to, you know, Mr.
Fish who's trying to fish.
And, and even in the book, I don't want togive too much away, but even in the book,
he says, you know, the, the, the, thewords say like, you know, if, if, if, if

(51:07):
somebody's gonna catch the last one, if Idon't, you know, someone's gonna be there.
I see that in the book.
And, uh, he's just sort of like whatwe would typify as a fisher without
stereotyping, but following a real storyand understanding how the evolution, uh,
came to be and, and, and joining in onthis, on this catch share, why the book.

(51:28):
And, and, and, and is this like a projectfor from Environmental Defense Fund?
Is this something that'spersonal and like, why did you
decide to go the book route?
It's a lot of questions allat once, so I apologize.
Um, well, the book, so I, I think that,um, in a world of one minute increments

(51:50):
of news, we sometimes forget about whathas actually happened in the world.
It's true.
So true.
So like, a little bit, this is like, um,this is like taking a, it's like taking a
minute and, and thinking, you know what,and recalling something really incredibly
powerful that happened that made almost nonews right at the, like, which was the re

(52:14):
and the book is about the recovery of USfisheries, but then it spreads out to how
this fisherman buddy doesn't become just.
Chief a, a chief advocate ofsustainable fisheries in the us He
then travels around the world and, andbrings his story to others as well.
And so I think it's really, um, Ithink the intentionality around the

(52:37):
book was capturing the breadth of thestory, the humanness of the story of
Buddy, um, as the protagonist and thecast of like, of many other fishermen
who are involved in that storyalong the way in some, in some way.
And, um, and celebrating it.

(52:58):
A little bit of my, like, my purposehere is like, let's celebrate something
really great that has happened.
Yeah.
And we spend too much time talkingabout collapse and degradation
and the future's gonna be worse.
And I. It isn't always the case.
Yeah.
And I think we don't do enough to talkabout progress and environmentalists

(53:21):
are like typified to be the,like the shooting for perfection.
Mm-hmm.
We're always shooting for perfectionand that drives people nuts.
Mm-hmm.
And I get it.
And actually this is about somethingthat's really good and really durable.
Yeah.
And that's, to me, like that'swhat we should be aiming for.

(53:41):
So a little bit trying to set up thatenvironmental progress can happen.
Yeah.
Um, and, and there's somethingto celebrate around that.
And what I love a, about this story is itspans almost like before, you know Yeah.
Fisheries policies came into play.

(54:04):
Two, you know, we're at where we're at,you know, over the last like 20 years
in terms of, you know, advocacy and,and, and understanding fisheries better.
But the story of how the Magnusand Stevenson Act came in.
I did not know that story before.
I knew of the policy and Iknew how effective it was.
I didn't, I'm not gonna say how it camein 'cause I want people to read it, but

(54:26):
I actually like, stood up from my seat.
I was at a cottage in front ofwater, of course, that's where
you wanna read your book on water.
And I was like, you gotta be kidding.
Me and my friends who were aroundme were like, what are you doing?
I'm like, I did not know this.
And I told them the storyand it was phenomenal.
I did not realize that that's how this,you know, fishing policy that has pretty

(54:47):
much brought back a lot of fishy, a lot offisheries around the US was implemented.
So I'm not gonna say why and,and how, but read the book.
Uh, and it because it's important.
It, I think it's, it really gives you ahistory of how things have come through.
It's not always perfect.
It's not always necessarily for one reasonor another, but there's always a reason

(55:07):
why things come in, especially when youlook at how it was done, who did it.
Um.
And in a situation where we're innow, where it seems like a lot of
people are against the environment,uh, from a policy perspective, how
things can maybe come into playthat would benefit the environment
and real world situations as well.

(55:29):
It, it, that's what it made me thinkabout, but again, I don't want to go into
too much detail because I don't want togive it away, but all this stuff, like,
it's a rich history followed through thelens of, of someone who's gone through
problems, you know, with the family andthen life and then, you know, it, it's
just he kind of goes all over the placeand then, but he, he has like a goal

(55:50):
and you're, you're invested in Buddythroughout this whole time and, and I
just thought it was, is really great.
Um, now were, have you alwayswanted, is this your first book
or have you written books before?
I have not written books.
I have to give Jamie alot of the credit here.
So my co-author, who is anaward-winning author, right?

(56:11):
Um, I am, I am your typical nonprofitexecutive where if you can't say
it to me in one page, like I'm notgonna, like, I can't, there's only
so much I can absorb at once, right?
So I am, I am not, I I willsay, admit that I'm the not the
long form narrative driver here.
Right.
Jamie Very much is, and I'mvery unreal, grateful for him.

(56:34):
Um, the story was very much apartnership, so I don't want people
to think that, like he, you know,he wrote it and my name's on it.
It's very much a partnership.
Yeah.
Um, but he did really, I mean, hebrought in a lot of those sort of
pre-history elements, which I thinkreally make the story much more robust.
And there's a depth there that, you know,going all the way back to the first,

(56:56):
you know, the, the, the finding of the.
First fishing hook and the, in thecolonial history of the United States.
Like, he was able to pull, I don'tknow if you've read those bits yet,
but he was able to pull things into thestory that, um, remarkably like create
this, this movement in this story.

(57:16):
Yeah.
That, um, that give buddy in his,in his life much more richness.
I often, I don't know if you've ever readMark Kurlansky, but I've, you know, I
read cod, so he had cod salt, I think hehad a baseball book where he tells this
history of the world around one item andone of of 'em was about catfish in the
United States and the, like, the ColonialAmerica and all, and the Basks coming

(57:41):
over, you know, even long before that.
Anyway, I, he tells the story basedon this one thing, and I feel like
what we've done in this book iswe've sort of cur Lansky esque it.
Such that it's really about buddy'slife, but it's about how the world
is changing based on somebodywho's demonstrated real leadership.

(58:01):
Yeah.
And is an unlikely, um, hero.
Like you don't expect him to be a hero.
Not at all.
Not at all.
You don't expect it.
But you're also not surprised becausejust the way his life has gone.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
You're like, yeah, that makes sense.
Um, but it kind of goes to the evolutionof, of Fishers, you know, throughout
their lifetime and what they learn.

(58:21):
And just like we have as scientistsand, and advocates and, and executives
and nonprofits go through the samekind of thing, there's definitely
an education through life and lifehistories and, and um, you know,
things that happened, whether it's ona international level or whether it's
on a level where, um, you know, wejust don't, we just don't understand.
So I think it's, I think it's wonderful.

(58:42):
I, I really think it's great.
I, I would love to get, um.
Your perspective on catch shares?
Like what is the future of CATCH shares?
Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question.
I think it's a story thatwill cont in some ways, sort
of continue to write itself.
Meaning that there's a lot ofevidence to suggest that this kind of
management strategy works really well.

(59:05):
Um, and it works in a diversityof types of fisheries.
You can do the kinds that wetalked about that are operating
here in the United States Okay.
That are percentage based, but thereare others in Belize, for example,
or in tropical coral reef ecosystemswhere they do it based on an area.
Um, so it's much more areabased, but still there's.

(59:25):
Certain fishermen who have accessto certain areas and they defend
them, they're called turfs.
It's an adaptation of a,of a catch share program.
And fundamentally, it's a, it's a, it's amarket-based and a rights-based strategy.
So it, it invests people and it providesfor that economic opportunity for them.
Um, and I think that around theworld, we'll continue to see, uh,

(59:49):
fisheries make the conversion.
It takes time because you really needthe fishermen and the communities to
be part of the design process in orderto get it right for it to solve for the
things that they need it to solve for.
Different fisheries have different needs.
Um, what is.
New in the equation since the USfederal fisheries went through its big

(01:00:12):
conversion, which is the story of whatsea change lays out is, is climate change.
So with climate change and warmingwaters we're, we are now seeing a
change in the distribution of fishaway from the tropics because they're
warming That's fine towards thepoles, that's worries and Gotcha.

(01:00:32):
And so fish are now crossingpolitical boundaries mm-hmm.
That we have put on a map that theydon't understand, um, in search of
colder waters because there are not fish.
Mm-hmm.
You know, fish have, they havea pretty, oh, sorry if you
heard that computer noise.
Um, they, they have a pretty,um, tight thermal tolerance.

(01:00:55):
All sp marine species do the water.
Oceans have been prettystable for a long time.
And so they're lookingfor cooler things now.
Um, and that's why we're gonnasee, even in some areas where you
change the fisheries management,certain species may never come back.
And that's the reality that wehave to start thinking about.

(01:01:17):
Like, I don't think we'll ever see.
The Gulf of Maine be a place wherethere's a lot of codfish in the future.
Not because, oh, I lostthe management system.
Lost you again.
Is not working for cod.
Lost.
Lost.
It's because Lost again, but that's okay.
Their cod pool.
What?
I'm gonna lemme finish it off hereso they're moving north because
I think we got a good answer.
Know towards, uh, Amanda,this has been wonderful.

(01:01:38):
I I really do appreciate that, uh,you coming on and spending your time.
I know you're busy and I, I do appreciateall the work that you do and all the
work that you've put into this book.
And Jamie as well.
Um, this book will be on sale whenwe post this recording, so I'll put
the links into the, uh, into theshow notes so people can get access.
So it's, she cha, see change,unlikely Allies, and a success

(01:02:00):
story of oceanographic Proportions.
I highly recommend thatyou read this book.
I am loving it so far andI can't wait to finish it.
Uh, and this is a, a story thatI'm sure we'll hear a lot more of.
As we progress.
So thank you so much, Amanda.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, Amanda, for joiningus on today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
It was so fun to be able to talk with you.
It's very rare where I speak toexecutive directors and especially

(01:02:21):
one who was a marine scientist before.
There's a couple that I've done.
It's been wonderful.
It's just great to be able to hear theirperspective and hear this story and
why it's so important, why Catch sharesare becoming a bigger and bigger tool
for conservation, for fisheries, andalso benefit both the Fisher as well
as their local communities and maybeeven a larger portion of that as well.

(01:02:41):
If you wanna buy the book, I'm gonnaput the link down below, but if
you have any questions or comments,please let me know 'cause I'd be
more than happy to answer those foryou, or I'll pass 'em off to Amanda.
She can help direct you to theanswers that you have to know, so
just put 'em in the comments below.
If you're listening to this onYouTube, or of course you can DM me.
At How to Protect the Ocean on Instagram,just at how to protect the ocean.

(01:03:02):
And if you really want to get toknow more about the podcast, you
can go speak up for blue.com.
There's a contact page ifyou wanna contact me, it goes
through my personal email.
Feel free to do that.
And that's it for today's episode.
I really pleased to be ableto bring you this episode.
I really am happy that you continueto support the podcast on YouTube, on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,wherever you listen to your podcast.

(01:03:24):
It is been a continued pleasure.
I'm not going anywhere.
I just like to acknowledgethat and be grateful.
I am grateful for the fact that youcontinue to listen to this podcast.
It makes me feel really good that youwant to know more about the ocean.
So thank you so much for joiningus on today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin fromthe True nor strong and free.
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you nexttime in Happy Conservation.

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