August 1, 2025 • 43 mins
Ocean Books can do more than entertain—they can inspire action, hope, and a fresh way of thinking about climate change. In this episode, Todd Medema introduces his new novel, How to Surf a Hurricane, a solarpunk heist that imagines a near-future world adapting to climate change. Todd and Andrew Lewin explore how fiction can shift the narrative from doom to determination, showing how communities can come together to protect nature and build a better future.
Solarpunk climate fiction takes center stage in the second half of the conversation. Todd shares his journey from clean energy and political advocacy to storytelling, describing the writing process, the publishing hurdles, and how his background shaped the world he built. This episode is for anyone who wants to see climate action through a more creative, hopeful lens.
Website: https://howtosurfahurricane.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When somebody's talking to you aboutclimate change, how do you feel?
Do you feel like this kind of likeeerie feeling inside this anxiousness,
this bad feeling about what's gonnahappen in the future, thinking about
the future, whether you should havekids, a family, how are we gonna survive
this when you know, politicians arenot really working on this business,
people aren't really working on this,or some people are, some people aren't.
(00:20):
Some people are doing the opposite.
It must feel pretty crappy after awhile, but imagine if you read something
or watched something or did anything.
And it actually made you feel optimisticabout climate change, especially
about climate change adaptation.
Imagine, just imagine if you read a bookthat gave you hope on climate change.
Well, that's what we're gonna betalking about on today's episode of
(00:42):
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I've got author, new author,Todd Maima on the podcast today.
He's talking about his new bookcalled How to Surf a Hurricane.
Just imagine the thought of that Surfinga hurricane, how to surf a hurricane.
It is this.
Fictional book about, you know, likekind of a bit of a sci-fi book about
someone who, it's a heist, it's ina solar punk, novel type of genre.
(01:05):
It's kind of cool and it's outfor presale right now, so I
want you to go out and get it.
But we're gonna hear from Toddabout the book, the process of
writing a book, especially lookingat something that's not often the
narrative that we hear, especiallywhen it comes to climate change.
So here we go.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
(01:26):
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, andthis is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean,how you can speak up for the ocean,
and what you can do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
Today we're gonna be talkingabout a book called How to
Surf A Hurricane by Todd Maima.
This is his first time writing a book.
Well, first time goingthrough a publisher.
He wrote a book, a novel in highschool, but this one is really special.
(01:47):
It's really about.
How to look at climate change in avery different way, an optimistic way.
A lot of us don't really think aboutthat when we hear about climate change.
A lot of doom and gloomassociated with it.
You know, sea level rise.
You have sea surface temperatureincreases, ocean acidification,
coral bleaching, flooding, droughts,wildfires, all that stuff makes
(02:08):
it really difficult to think aboutclimate change in a positive way or
to think about life in the future.
With climate change in a positiveway, a lot of us get anxious about it.
A lot of us, you know,just feel really crappy.
It kind of turns our stomach a littlebit, especially when you see how people
are dealing with it, how politicizedit's, but we don't often hear about in
our regular lives or in our fictionalbooks, or on a podcast or on a video where
(02:32):
things are gonna be fine, things thatmight actually turn out to be okay if we
take it seriously, if we take actions.
You know this book that Todd wroteis going to give you that optimism
is going to say, you know what?
I think we'll be okay aslong as we take action.
And the book isn't gonnainspire you to take action.
In fact, you can go to the link below inthe show notes or in the comments below.
(02:55):
If you're watching this onYouTube, you can go and you
can say, Hey, you know what?
Like, here's a link tohow to protect the ocean.
Todd's got all these resources foryou and strategies and tips on how you
can get started protecting the ocean.
I think this is where books need to go.
I think this is howresources need are built.
They inspire and then they leadyou and guide you towards actions.
What we're trying to build for a longtime in a project, which I've probably
(03:19):
already announced by now, but it's goingto be amazing and you can take part.
So this is a great interview.
Todd's an amazing human being.
He's already in the clean energy industry.
He always wants to do somethingfor climate change, like to reduce
climate change, to help the planet,telling you to spend time for
yourself in nature, and that's howwe learn and get inspired to protect.
This book is gonna help you do that.
(03:39):
I can't wait for youto hear the interview.
So here's the interview withTodd Maima talking about his
book, how to Surf a Hurricane.
Enjoy the interview andI'll talk to you after.
Hey Todd, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk aboutclimate and the ocean?
Hey, Andrew.
I am.
Thanks for having me.
Love it.
I love it.
This is gonna be a lot of fun becausewe're gonna be talking, you know,
(03:59):
about climate change in the ocean,but in a little different way.
A lot of times when we talk aboutclimate change, it's the doom and gloom.
It sucks.
It's no fun.
You know, we get climate anxiety, we getoverwhelm, and there's, we gotta find a, a
different way to be able to discuss this.
And, and Todd, when you reached outto me to be like, Hey, look, I wrote
a book, uh, you know, in a, in asort of a fictional character way,
but talking about climate change.
(04:21):
Talking about oceans in a muchdifferent way than the way we
normally talk about it in society.
And I want to discuss it on the podcast.
And I was like, you know what?
This is a perfect way to talkabout different ways to discuss,
you know, climate change.
Just think about climate change.
So I was like, yes, let's do it.
We booked it, we're here,we're ready to talk about it.
And I can't wait to do that.
But Todd, before we do that,why don't you just let us know
(04:41):
who you are and what you do.
Yeah, so I'm Todd Mamma.
For the past several years, I'veworked directly in clean energy, uh,
on solar and good energy storage.
But really outside of that, uh, I'vebecome extremely passionate about climate
change and, and how we tackle this.
And I've tried to explore it andtackle it from many different
(05:05):
lenses, not just from the technologyside, but from the political side.
I've like volunteeredresistance climate lobby.
I've liaised with senators from.
Like the local volunteering side, runninggreen groups, you know, even from the
personal lifestyle side, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Lived car free cut meat outta my dietand just really trying to understand
(05:25):
what is this problem, what are oursolutions and how do we get there?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, that's the,that's the question, right?
That's the big, those are the bigquestions that we, that we, we'd been
trying to solve for quite some timegrowing up in, in this type of world.
You know, and, and hearing climatechange, it's, it's been often discussed
in terms of climate denial and everything.
(05:46):
So as like as you grew up getting intothe clean energy industry, how did,
like, why did you follow that path?
Like, you know, growing up probably a lotof people, even maybe parents or aunts
and uncles or like in your family or evenfriends and, and their parents and stuff.
They may have talked in, in, in adifferent way of climate change,
like it's not existing or, you know,there's a lot of controversy around
(06:08):
it politically, it comes into play.
Like what, how did you like getsteered into clean energy industry?
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's a great question.
'cause my family backgroundis more the red state life.
Right, okay.
Questions about climate change.
But I think what it reallycomes down to is, as a kid, I
spent a lot of time in nature.
(06:29):
I was a boy scout, we were hiking,camping, kayaking, you name it.
And so I just really cameto appreciate nature.
Yeah.
And as you know, as I was exposedmore and more to like, Hey, we're
doing these things that are destroyingnature, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
No.
Like I want, I want nature to behere, not just for me, but like.
For, for my friends, my family, my kids.
(06:49):
Yeah.
You know, I want to preserve this.
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, that's what we all want, right?
It really comes down to just,just being in nature and, and
spending time in, in nature.
Um, and so you follow, youfollow a path of clean energy.
So how did you, like, what was your role?
Like what, what did youdo in that industry?
Like what was your title?
Yeah, so my title is asoftware product manager.
(07:12):
Okay.
So I help these clean energy companies.
Develop software that helpsthem operate more efficiently,
helps them design Oh, cool.
You Solar power plants that are cheaperfor their customers and just trying to
drive down the cost of, of clean energy.
That's interesting because that was a bigproblem when it first came out, right?
Solar panels are too expensive.
Like, you know, we put on homes, it'salmost like I, I'll never forget, like
(07:34):
I've grown up in a, in a very, uh,like in a, in a very, like a time where
technology increased immensely, you know,from getting up on the, you know, from
getting up from the couch to have toturn the channel on the TV to having like
massive remotes that are like, you know.
A foot long with like 30 buttonsto, to, you know, demarcate the
channels and stuff like that.
Then to go into like massive TVswhere the backs were like deep and
(07:58):
then you get to flat screen TVs whenthey were super, and all these new
technologies were super expensive whenthey first came out, and I remember.
Uh, vividly when plasma TVs and flatTVs became super cheap, it was, it
almost felt like it was overnight.
It was like when they figuredout how to make them properly,
like, and, and efficiently, right?
Where they can mass producethem, where they're not $2,000.
(08:19):
Every time they come out, the, the,and, and like, if you look at them now,
you can get like a 42 inch TV for what?
Like $300?
$400 and great.
That's crazy quality.
Yeah.
It's insane.
Right?
I feel like that, like the solar panelsindustry went through the same thing.
Like we had solar, we had friends onthe, on the block that had solar panels
back in the eighties, and they were huge.
They were ugly.
(08:40):
Now it's almost to the point, you know,where, where certain companies have
them as like tiles on your, like a like.
Know on your, on your roof.
Yeah.
So they, it just like,looks seamless, you know?
Uh, so there's a lot of, there'sbeen a, a huge sort of change and
shift in, in making them, and, andwe don't really realize that software
is a big part of that into how tomake those, it's all computerized.
(09:02):
How to make it more, uh, efficiently.
Was that a hard thing to do?
Like, is that a hard thing toget into in terms of a software
engineer or software programmer?
Um.
You know, I'm gonna say it wasn'ttoo hard for me because it's
something that I've always enjoyed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually got into it from video games.
(09:23):
Uh, okay.
Yeah.
When I was a kid, I lovedplaying video games.
And then my best friend inelementary school actually was
like, Hey, did you know you couldprogram your own video games?
Nice.
And like what?
So I just like taught myselfhow to make, honestly, they were
quite terrible games, you know?
Course I didn't know how games atthat point, but like, you know, um.
(09:43):
And sometimes I get people askinglike, oh, it's the tech industry.
Like, you know, I'm not asoftware engineer, there's
nothing I can do to help.
Yeah.
But like there's.
So many different angles thatwe're tackling this problem from.
Mm-hmm.
And really what I've seen islike every skill set is useful.
Yes.
Like if you love talking with people,if you love doing detail work, you
(10:06):
know, if you love like being out innature, like there are people who go
out and like install these solar panels.
So like if you don't want todesk job, you can help the clean
energy revolution in nature.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
It's, it's, it's a problem that needs tobe solved by everybody and every skillset.
Right?
And I think it's just a matter ofliterally plugging into the problem and
(10:27):
the solutions and understanding how to getthere and how your skillset can, can go.
It's really interesting 'cause Ihave a lot of people who come in,
it's like, I wanna protect the ocean.
I gotta become a marine biologist.
I'm like, no, please don't.
We have so many, there are so many upand coming marine biologists, like,
please, like, what's your skillset?
Oh, you know, I'm in business orI'm a banker, or I'm this, I'm like.
Use it, use that stress, like thatskillset, use that experience to
(10:50):
like, let's look at funding models.
Let's look at, you know, ways toprogram software, ways to program,
you know, ways to make better andmore efficient, like make solar
panels better and more efficient.
Like, you know, there'sso many different ways.
I interviewed someone exactly who'sputting like solar panels on boats.
Like, there's like a, like they put'em in on sailboats and stuff and like.
Into the boat and you'rejust like, this is amazing.
(11:11):
Like to even come up with that idea,you need problem solvers, right?
And that could becomein any kind of format.
Obviously, you know, developers andsoftware engineers like you guys are
really good at that because you're, youknow, that's, that's the skillset that
you bring, the value that you bring.
But there are other people who, likebusiness people who are like skillset.
They have skill sets thatare problem solvers, and they
just do it in different ways.
And I think we need that.
(11:32):
And you have done it in a lot ofdifferent ways, which we're gonna
talk about in a, in a minute.
But it's really cool to see that.
So as you're in this, this, you know,the, the, the clean energy industry,
you're doing these software, uh,models and you're, and you're, and
you're coming up with these programs.
Where do you go from there?
Like, okay, this is like, how come youjust didn't be like, this is my thing.
Like this is great, I'mgonna just continue this.
(11:54):
Or did you find like somethingelse that interested you as you
were growing through that industry?
Yeah, I mean, I, I lovedoing multiple things.
I have a hard time sitting still.
Gotcha.
So I, you know, I'm still in clean energydoing this software, product management.
Yeah.
Um, and.
On top of that, I've always askedmyself like, what are, what are ways
(12:16):
that we can move the needle on this?
And actually the, the reason I startedwriting this book about two years
ago was this, uh, someone shared astat with me that humans are like,
I don't know, something crazy, like30 times more likely to remember a
story than a piece, like a statistic.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Because like we are such story-driven Yes.
(12:39):
Creatures.
Yeah.
So, you know, I really got tothinking like, are we communicating
about climate change wrong?
Is that, are we shootingourselves in the foot?
'cause we're just like,numbers, numbers, numbers.
Yeah.
And everyone's like, I, whatdo these numbers even mean?
Um, and I don't know, like the same day.
It was kind of one of those, youknow, funny coincidence, someone
else sent me this idea of like,
(13:02):
in climate we have thesethree story archetypes.
Either the tech billionairegenius will save us all.
Future generation, thekids will save us all.
Mm-hmm.
Or the future is gonna be aunrelenting hellscape that we deserved.
And like, you know what?
You're totally right.
I see one of those three archetypesand basically every story and
(13:24):
yes, we need something else.
Yes.
Oh my gosh, it's so true.
But there is another one.
I feel like there's the scienceI told you, so you get that a lot
in like apocalyptic movies, right?
Where you have like the geologist or themarine biologist who's just like I told
you, you shouldn't have messed with that.
And then No, nobody, everybodyignores that person and then all
hell breaks loose and they have tohelp, they have to help solve it.
(13:46):
Yeah.
That's, that's kind of that third oneof like, you know, we, we were warned
and like, the future's gonna suck.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know, in some ways it makes sense.
Like, you know, listen to yourelders, listen to your scientists,
like they're telling you.
Yeah, for sure.
You know.
But I think also, like one of thethings that's really missing is like,
if you're not a tech billionaire,if you're not like a teenager.
(14:10):
There, there's no other stories about likehow you as just like an ordinary So true.
More like middle aged personhelp contribute in your lifetime.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like so many of these,even, so many of these stories
take place in the far future.
And I'm like, well, what aboutthe next like 20, 30, 40 years?
Like, there's so little covering that.
(14:32):
I, I agree.
I also think too, as you were mentioningthat I'm, I'm thinking like, you know,
we expect these heroes to come outand solve those problems, whether it
be a tech billionaire, whether it bea teenager, and we've seen some of
those come out and they get destroyed.
You know what I mean?
Like, people will go after a 16-year-oldgirl or a number of 16-year-old girls
and just tear her to pieces because.
(14:54):
They don't think she can, they, theydon't think that she can do anything.
Or like you have a tech billionairewho tries to come out with somebody
who's like, oh no, all theseconspiracy theories come out.
Like they're trying tocontrol the weather.
They're doing this, they're doing that.
And, and they, and then in a way,people look at that from the outside.
It's like, well, I can't, Idon't wanna be in that position.
Like, I can't do anything.
Yeah.
Because then I'm gonna be called outfor anything, you know, anything I
(15:17):
say is gonna be called out and, andI don't want to be treated that way.
And so it almost like.
Propels you from doing it a littlebit and just being like, no, I'm
just gonna stick, stick in my thing.
I'm gonna, you know, grab my, myplastic drink like, or my drink
that's in a plastic, you know?
Mm-hmm.
You know, single use container.
I'm just gonna continue onmy way, you know what I mean?
And I, and then, so it kind ofsuppresses us a little bit from doing it.
(15:40):
'cause we're like, oh no, I can't, that'sgonna destroy my career, destroy my life.
I don't want to, I don't wanna do that.
Right.
There's, there's a lot of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that's where like the thirdpart of this puzzle came in, that like.
When it really clicked, like,okay, I'm gonna write a book.
Yeah.
For a while it's kinda like, oh,I'll just, you know, like try
writing some short stories, butlike, okay, I'm gonna write a book.
I discovered this genre called solar punk.
(16:02):
Have you heard of it?
Solar Punk.
Solar Punk, okay.
No, I've never heard of that.
Okay.
I, it's a pretty newbudding genre, so, okay.
You know, it's, it is, it's not likeit's classically defined 'cause people
are still figuring out what it means.
Yeah.
But it's, it's kind ofthe opposite of cyberpunk.
Okay.
Like cyberpunk is.
Dystopian future with liketechnology ruining everything.
(16:25):
Okay.
Solar punk, in my mind is a hopefulfuture where we as humans, as
individuals and communities workwith nature to build a better future.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, ah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, and that tracks, I mean, you look atany conservation project that's succeeded.
It's done as a community.
(16:46):
It's done with the community.
It's done in like incollaboration with that.
It's not just done by one person who'slike trying to hog all the attention.
It's done as a community.
So that, that makes sense.
As, as a book.
Why, why do you think this is such a,like, why do you think it's only new now?
Like why do you think peopleare only coming out with it now?
This type of genre?
I have two.
(17:06):
Two hypotheses.
Okay.
One is that fear cells.
Right.
True.
Like we are so biologically wiredto be afraid of things that like
if you just took the same story,like if you took iRobot Yeah.
And turned it into like robotsare gonna be just amazing and
there's no problems at all.
People like literally wouldn't believe it.
They wouldn't buy it.
Yeah.
Like yeah.
It's gonna be a total flopat the, there's no conflict.
(17:27):
They need conflict.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and
I would say the other oneis like these stories.
There's utopian fiction, butit's always so far off, right.
Star Trek, like infinite free energy,universal basic income, et cetera.
But it's like 400 years from now.
(17:49):
Yes, but like where solar punk reallylike means something to the genre is like
kind of the next a hundred years, likethe messy middle where we're trying to
figure out where, where hope is like.
A question rather than kind of agiven in a, in a distant utopia.
Yes.
Uh, and what I learned as I startedwriting this book and thinking about
like, Hey, am I gonna publish this?
How do I publish it?
(18:10):
Uh, it turns out it's actually very hardto publish near future books like this
because they're like instantly dated.
They expire so quickly.
Right.
You know, any, any like predictionsyou make in your book in five years,
they're gonna turn out to be wrong.
So your book is a very short shelf life.
Get it.
I get it.
Yeah.
So now, now, so how do you, so, sothis like solar punk type of, of novel,
(18:36):
you know, it, it, it expires quickly.
So why, why do you think peopleare catching onto it now, like,
or are really enjoying it now?
Is it just because it's so near future?
People wanna know what the near future is.
People want to knowwhat the near future is.
And I think it's also this rebellionagainst the oversaturation of
fear and anxiety in our world.
Hence the punk a part of it.
(18:56):
Yeah.
People are just so desperatefor, tell me something besides,
the future's gonna suck.
Yeah.
And like when you, when youreally think about it, like, the
future is what we make of it.
Yeah.
And what we make of it is reallyinformed by the stories that we read.
So in a way, it's almost an actof creative rebellion to see
like, we're surrounded by fear.
(19:17):
Everyone thinks the future'sgonna suck, but like, what
if, what if it does work out?
Yeah.
And like you share that idea with peopleand you're actually like helping to
build that future through storytelling.
Right, right.
And, and I mean, I, that's, that'sthe beauty of it, is to kind of give
you, is to unlock that hope in you.
I think hope is a very powerful,you know, powerful way to do it,
(19:37):
but you still, you can still haveconflict, but give hope in that way.
Right.
Yeah.
This, uh, was probably the hardestpart about writing this book was.
In a book about hope,what is the conflict?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, in a book that's not dystopian.
Mm-hmm.
Why are, so the book is a heist.
(19:58):
Right?
Right.
And like usually in a heist it's like, whywould someone participate in this like,
super dangerous, illegal thing if there'slike nothing going wrong in their life.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so it's very interestingto navigate that and, and find
something that was hopeful and yet.
Yeah.
Dangerous and exciting.
Yeah.
So I want you to, as you kind ofalluded to it, but I want you to
give us the, the, the, without givingtoo much away, you know, we know
(20:22):
it's a, it's a solar punk heist.
Give us a little bit of a premiseof what people can think about.
Like what, what would be on theback of the book, what's gonna be on
the back of the book to give a likethat, that, that, that lull to of
like, Hey, how do I wanna read this?
Yeah.
So if you've ever askedthe question of what.
Lives in our life.
Climate change adaptation will look like.
(20:44):
Mm-hmm.
You're gonna wanna read this.
Okay.
And if you've ever read ina climate book and just been
like, dear job, this is boring.
And you want somethingthat's actually fun to read.
Yeah.
This is first and foremost, uh, like highstakes, thrilling page, turning heist.
So like, if you want something enjoyableto read and where you just happen to like
(21:04):
get some new ideas about our future, like.
Check this out.
I love that.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna clip that,that's gonna be the commercial
for, for this type of book.
I, I think it's great.
And, and you know, you want somethingthat, like you're on the edge of
your seat as you're reading it.
Um, you know, it, it's, it's,you're, you're following the story
closely, but you're seeing, I, Iassume what's happening is you're
(21:25):
just seeing the world that theylive in while they do this heist.
Right.
And how they've adapted to climate change.
Uh, almost in a way, and theway I'm thinking of it, like.
I can remember Dem themovie Demolition Man.
Whereas in the future, I don't, I forgethow many years in the future, uh, but
like Sylvester Stallone, Wesley Snipes,they're in there, they've been frozen.
They all of a sudden they're discoveringthis new future where they've adapted,
(21:48):
you know, no violence, no this, no that.
And then all of a sudden this iswhat they live in and they, they're
trying to change or they're tryingto like stay true to themselves.
It's a really interesting thingwhere I think the major restaurant,
the nice restaurants were TacoBell, I think, and, and it's,
you know, very weird kind of way.
But I think that's what it is.
It's just like, here's thestory that's happening.
It's a, it's a heist, and then thisis the, the world that they live in.
(22:10):
So you kind of discover what afu, like a near future world of
climate change is gonna look like.
Yeah.
And I, I was really intentional about,so it's, it's an ensemble heist, right?
There's a whole cast of characters.
Gotcha.
And each one of those characters hashad a very different experience in the
world of how climate change is affectingthem and how they're adapting to it.
(22:32):
So even as you just get to meet thecharacters, you're learning about other
parts of the world, other challengesthey're facing, how are they solving it?
Uh, you know?
Yeah.
Well in heist.
I love it.
I love it.
Now, you know, obviouslythis is in the future.
We're not, we're not psychic.
Uh, where did you come up with someof the, the sort of the environments
(22:55):
that you're gonna, that the reader'sgoing to encounter in this book?
How did you come up with it?
Uh, did you try and look as,as what it would consider to
be as accurate as possible?
So that was one of my goals.
Uh, my, my tagline for this book isbasically The Martian meets Ocean 11
in a world adapting to climate change.
Okay.
So it has to be a fun heist.
(23:16):
Yeah.
And, you know, very accurate,very scientifically backed.
Right.
Uh, and so yeah, I consultedwith a lot of people.
Uh, um, just anytime that I wantedto pull something in, I would
make sure to talk to an expert.
Like how, like how would this happen?
How would you adapt?
Right.
So when you, when you do a, when youwrite, like is this your first novel?
(23:39):
Um, well I did write one in, inhigh school, but this is going
to be my first published novel.
Okay.
Well, no, but that's importantthough 'cause it's not your first
time going through the process.
Maybe with an actual publisherit's probably different, I assume.
Mm-hmm.
When you set out to write this book,like why did you decide this book?
Like obviously you had some experience,a little bit of experience in high
(24:00):
school, what made you do a book andnot like a podcast or you know, like a
YouTube channel or something like that?
Like what made you decideI'm gonna write this book?
Well, when I started, uh, I wasn't sureif I was going to publish it or not.
Okay.
I felt the creative need to writea book and, you know, that's what
(24:21):
felt accessible to me at the time.
Um, you know, uh, it seems a bitmore straightforward to put words
on a page than to figure out mm-hmm.
All the video editing, um, or even soundediting, you know, ma made do those
to you on, on figuring all that out.
Um, and so I just, you know, Istarted writing it for fun and then
I hit like 50, 60, 70,000 wordsand was like, oh, I made something.
(24:46):
Like, I kind of care about it andI think it has a good message.
Maybe I should like, you know,take it seriously and like hire an
editor and like figure this out.
I love it.
I love it Now, uh, to gothrough this process the first
time, it's gotta be a little.
A little challenging tofigure out what you need.
Obviously going, you know, writing 50to 70,000 words, you make it sound easy.
(25:07):
My friend, like, Todd, this is notan easy thing to do, but you, you
love, I assume you love writing.
So that, that's, that's nothard for you to, for you to do.
But the whole process, like tostart off, where did you go?
Like where, like finding apublisher, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, and I will say it, itwas hard in the sense of like,
you run into writer's walk.
(25:27):
Yeah.
And you just have to keep writing.
And so, yeah.
Um, I ended up applying skills that I'veused elsewhere in life to form successful
habits of like, if there's a thing youwanna do, make it as easy as possible
and make it like a daily repeating thingso you don't have to think about it.
So I was like, like homescreen in my laptop.
(25:49):
Anytime I open it,first thing is the book.
Yeah.
And then, uh.
Setting like a day, like I'm goingto write for 15 minutes a day.
You know, if it's more thanthat, that's great, but like by
setting that bar at 15 minutes.
It felt more approachable, I'd belike, okay, like I don't even know
what I'm gonna write about, butI'll try writing for 15 minutes.
And 90% of the time it would turninto like a two hour marathon.
(26:11):
Yeah.
Well, 'cause I think I like that.
You, you, you kind ofdo it in a short spurt.
It's like, look, I can do this.
This is doable every day.
Whatever's going on in yourlife, whatever you have to do.
Obviously you're working during thistime, like I assume you're, you're
full still have a full-time job.
Yeah.
So, you know, doing it in littlechunks in 15 minutes, that's great.
And then all of a sudden you'reprobably like, after 15 minutes,
you're like, no, no, no.
I'm on roll here.
(26:32):
I'm just gonna keep going.
I'm just gonna keep rollingwith this story idea or
this, this line in the story.
I'm gonna keep going.
Boom.
All of a sudden you're like, twohours later I've got 20,000 words.
Okay, cool.
Like, I dunno if that's possible, butnot 20,000 words in two hours, but yeah,
no, no, but like, you know what I mean?
Like you've, I've, I've justwritten for two hours, got
some ideas out of your head.
You probably feel like after like one ortwo hours, you probably feel a little,
(26:54):
a little tired mentally, you know, justfrom, from a little drained on, on that.
After doing that right.
Yeah.
It, it was actually really interestingto see how the creative energy, uh, it,
it almost ended up being like physicalenergy, you know, like you work out right?
And then you're like tired.
Yeah.
Like to put forth that creativity,like the creative part of your brain is
(27:15):
like, I need to take a nap, you know?
Yeah.
I get it.
I, I also, sorry, go ahead.
It's kinda like a muscle inthat sense of like, yeah.
Then you can build a creative energy.
You can build your endurance.
You can write for like twoand a half hours, three hours.
So I think that was likea, a helpful framework.
So how many hours do you think ittook you to finish off this book?
(27:36):
Like to write this whole book?
If you, if you, oh, if I hadto, if I had to calculate that
number, it would make me sad.
But if I had to, yes.
I think by the time we publishit, I will probably have spent
about a thousand hours on it.
Yeah.
Crazy.
A thousand hours, like roughlytwo hours a day for, yeah.
(27:57):
Two, you know, two orthree years, so Yeah.
Geez.
And, and working at the same time.
Like, this is your hobby at, at the, likeat this point it's your hobby, right?
Like it, I mean obviously you'regetting it published and stuff,
but you're doing this as anextracurricular activity essentially.
Yeah.
And in a way I think it works well.
(28:19):
Yeah.
Because, you know, I think of likewhat I write in the book and so
much of it is informed by real life.
Where it would be very hard tojust do this in a vacuum chamber.
Gotcha.
But yeah, for sure.
Uh, you know, I'm constantly stealingthings that I see in real life, and I
think that makes the book Yeah, a lotmore interesting and a lot more realistic.
(28:40):
What barriers did you encounterwhile writing this book?
Uh, I, I would say rejection is a big one.
Uh, okay.
And, and like, yeah, so last year whenI started trying to send this out to
(29:04):
publishers where I kind of finishedthe first draft, I'd like run it past
the first draft editor and I was like,okay, I think I have something here.
40 emails out.
39 nos and then one, yes.
Okay.
And I could have stopped at 38 andbeen like, yeah, this is ridiculous.
Like 38 people said no.
Uh, yeah, but I'm stubborn.
(29:25):
So.
Well, I mean it that, well,I mean, it worked, right?
The stubbornness worked.
Yeah.
'cause you, you finally found that,that one, this is not, uh, abnormal,
I assume from the publishing industry.
It's just a lot of, they probablyget pitched all the time.
It's difficult.
And you, you need to find that, Iassume you need to find that one
publisher that believes in thebook, but as it's written Yeah.
And then saying, okay, we, if we, I'm surethey're gonna come with some suggestions
(29:47):
and, and tweaks and stuff, then, thenyou, it's, they feel it's workable.
Right.
Yeah, it actually really helpedme to understand other people's
creative journeys and seethat this is pretty common.
Um, you know, I looked up storiesfrom other authors and like very
frequently I was like, yeah,you know, 95% rejection rate.
Uh, but actually the one thatreally stuck in my mind is Lord
(30:10):
of the Rings and Peter Jackson.
Uh, I was a huge, huge Lord of theRings fan growing up, and I watched
like all of the behind the scenes.
Yeah.
And in one of the behind, behind thescenes, he talks about how he had to
take it to dozens of, of, uh, moviehouses before a single person bit.
And like, you know, I, I have no, I claimthat my book is anywhere near as good as
(30:31):
the Peter Jackson loved during movies.
You never know.
It's like, yes.
If you believe it, youjust have to keep pushing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that'sreally what it comes down to.
But like, and, and in that journey.
I, I assume, like, did you have a lotof self-doubt after each je like, you
know, getting more and more rejections?
Did you have that self-doubt?
Yeah.
(30:51):
Uh, for sure.
And then, you know, not even justwith the publishers, but like, after
I got my publisher and then I startedgetting editor feedback, right.
You know, sometimes I get the feedbackand you'd be like, this is great
and you just need to tweak this.
And I'd be like, cool.
Done.
And sometimes it'd be like, wow,this like whole chapter, this whole
character doesn't, just doesn't work.
Be like, but they're,it's integral to the plot.
(31:13):
If I get rid of them,I have have the book.
Uh,
and how, so how do you react tothat when you get that reaction,
you know, and you're like, Idon't really wanna change that.
Like, from a creative standpoint,this, like you said, this character's
integral to the rest of the book.
How do you re, how do youreact to that kind of stuff?
Do you get, is it like an anger kindof thing or more of like a desperation?
(31:34):
Like, my book will change if I do this?
I would say.
It's
a little sadness or despair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
(31:56):
you know, like you, you invest your heartin a creative project, and so then when
someone's like, this is garbage, you'relike, but does, does that make me garbage?
Right.
This is, this is me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and.
The intimidation too, of havingto make those big changes.
So eventually I found this sort ofprocess where I would like read the
(32:19):
feedback in a very detached mannerand sit on it and actually start first
applying this mental question of like,is this feedback I want to apply?
Right?
Um, what.
What I started realizing, isn't it arelike once you get past the like basic
(32:41):
stuff, like, you know, are there typos?
Like is your grammar good?
A lot of it really boilsdown to artistic choice.
Mm-hmm.
Gotcha.
And subjectivity.
And, you know, I started getting likeconflicting feedback of like, I like this
character, I don't like this character.
I'm like, well, can't please both of you.
So like, I have to go back to what,what the story I want to tell is.
(33:04):
Yeah.
Uh.
And that's, that's hard to do.
'cause you know you want your book to bea success and you think like if someone
gives you feedback, if you apply thefeedback, it'll make it more successful.
Yeah, but Well, and especially with thegenre like you're looking at like solar
punk, you know, like a heist, right?
This is very different than whatmany publishers probably see.
(33:24):
You're trying to.
Provided optimistic look to climate changevery different than what the, the, the
normal narrative is, or the traditionalnarrative is for climate change.
Was that ever, uh, at risk of beingchanged through the editing process?
(33:45):
Um,
I'd say the high level ideawas not, you know, I, right.
I was.
Lucky enough to find a publisherand an editor that understood
what I was trying to achieve.
Uh, and I guess that makes sense.
'cause you know, they, they want,they took it on, they, yeah.
Obvious they have to understand theproject and want that, want that project.
(34:06):
'cause they're gettingpitched with so many books.
If they don't like the exact missionstatement for your book, they're probably
just gonna take on a different book.
But, uh, I mean, I've gotten to thepoint around like, I don't know.
Publisher rejection number 30where it started being like,
maybe I should self-publish.
Yeah.
So there's a whole section of myGoogle search history of like, how does
self-publish a self-publish good idea.
(34:27):
I mean, it's an idea.
I think I would go towardsthat after that many rejection.
Like, you know what?
I'm just gonna self, but there's a, yeah.
So what's the differencebetween getting a, a publisher
and then also self publishing?
Like what, in that process,what's the difference?
Well, okay, for me.
I wanted to go the publishingroute for two read.
(34:49):
One is I really wanted tosee how it can be done Right.
And professionally.
Yeah.
And then learn from that andmaybe do it myself the next time.
Right.
Like I, that's my mentalmodel for learning is like,
watch a professional, do it.
Yes.
And then like copy and paste.
Uh, the other one is I reallyhope it gets turned into a movie.
I, it's like one of my bucketlist items is like, write
(35:12):
something that turns into a movie.
Might not be the book, but like Yeah.
Uh, I felt that going, the, thetraditional publisher route was like
a, gave it kind of a better chanceof being taken seriously as a movie.
Gotcha.
And it makes sense.
And also like, I, I, I think thefeedback is awesome too, right?
To be able to.
Share your, your creative work withpublishers and, and editors, like
(35:33):
professionals that do this each and everyday who have seen countless books, right.
Compared to maybe yourself or others.
Obviously, you're probably wellread and, and things like that.
If you're ready to read a, uh, write abook, but, you know, that's, that's also
a, a, probably a, a plus, a positive.
Getting a published book is just likeyou, you're, you're getting input into the
story, input into the writing style thatmight play a role down the down the road.
(35:57):
If a book does get picked up.
Yeah, no, and I think feedback iscritical to really any creative
process, including writing.
And you know, even outside ofmy publisher, I recruited a
lot of my own beta readers.
Uh, yeah.
Gotcha.
Mostly friends.
But yeah, I actually found likea website online called Critique
(36:17):
Circle, where you post chapters,you read other people's chapters.
They have a really smart system where.
You get credits for reviewingother people's chapters.
Yeah.
And then you needcredits to post your own.
So it's, it kind of keeps this likehealthy economy alive where Yeah.
You're incentivized toreview other people.
It's kind of like ascience journal in a way.
Like, you know, you write, youwrite articles and they ask you
to review articles and that'slike part of the service.
(36:39):
Yeah.
And you know, thankfullyno money is required.
Yeah.
I know the science journalism spaceis running into a lot of the expensive
paywalls right now, but Yeah.
Uh, I actually think that that'sa super interesting model.
Of the future.
Um, because, you know, as partof this whole solar punk idea,
I think community and people aresuch a large part of the problem.
(37:03):
Sorry, part of the solution.
Solution, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Community and people are such a largepart of the solution and one of the
ways that we do that is we figure outsystems that help us align, help us
work better together rather than worse.
Uh, so these platforms.
I mean, Craigslist is like this weirdlyold school, but perfect example of like
(37:26):
if you just, and make a platform wherepeople can buy and sell used items.
Yeah.
I mean, who knows how many, likemillions of tons of CO2 Craigslist has
saved from things being landfilled.
Yeah, it's incredible.
It's true.
'cause normally peoplewould just throw stuff out.
Even for like Facebook marketplaces,people are like, I got this junk,
but I can sell it for 50 bucksand, and just make something
(37:46):
off of it and it gets reused.
So it makes sense to, for reusablestuff, it probably saves a lot, a ton of
stuff from, from going into the, yeah.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Agreed.
That's, that's really interesting.
So, um, with this story, what doyou hope readers get out of it?
(38:07):
I hope that readers of how tosurf for hurricane walk away
believing that there's hope inthe future, and feeling excited
and empowered to take actionthemselves and with their community.
Okay.
Yeah, I like that.
And so, I mean, that's what you want.
(38:28):
You want the call to action.
So part of the book is there like a,will there be like a follow up with you?
You know, you'll probably do sometalks and stuff like that, but
like, is there, like you wantthem to feel a call to action?
So after the book, I'm reading it andI'll be like, oh man, this is awesome.
I feel inspired to do something else.
How will you, like, is there a way thatthey can get directed to something?
Like, are you going to create somethinglike that or say, here are a bunch
(38:50):
of of organizations such as likeSurf Ride or something like that,
that are going to help you, guide youto do that kind of call to action?
Yeah.
Uh, so obviously going to keep doingpodcasts and spreading the word, but also
for listeners of how to protect the ocean.
I've prepared a specialpage on the book's website.
Nice.
How to serve for hurricane.com/protect,which will not only give them a
(39:13):
free sneak preview of the book, butincludes some, some actions and some
ideas on how you can get startedyourself helping to protect the ocean.
I love that.
What a nice surprise.
That's amazing.
Uh, this is a guy who knows how to.
Sell a book.
This is, this is fantastic, I think, but Imean that, that's what's important, right?
When you write a novel like this,you want people to feel inspired.
(39:34):
You want people to take action.
Here, you're providing people with amethodology, some ideas, some strategies.
I think that's, that's fantastic.
And, and I can't wait.
Yeah, I can't wait to read the book.
I can't wait for people to read the book.
Um, people are, as you're readingthis, or as you're listening to
this, you're watching this, thebook, the, the, the pre-orders are
up and you can grab the pre-orders.
(39:55):
I can put the link in the show notes.
Um, Todd, like, as we kind of wrapthis up, like what do you want
people, uh, to feel after this book?
Like what do you want people to do?
I want people.
First and foremost, I wantpeople to spend time in nature.
Yes, that's pro.
Like the single most important thingyou can do is spend time in nature.
(40:18):
'cause it's gonna recharge you.
It's gonna shield you against all the fearand anxiety in the world, and it's gonna
remind you, this is what I'm fighting for.
Yeah.
And then take that energy and act.
Yeah.
There's so many ideas onlineabout how you can act, you know,
find something that makes sensefor your life and your lifestyle.
And build on that action, joinsome sort of group or community
(40:42):
near you with similar desires andgoals to just keep, keep building
on that and enabling other people.
Yeah.
I love that.
I think that's, that's,that's a great, great message.
Uh, you know, Todd, I want tothank you so much for coming on
the podcast, for writing the book.
Uh, I can't wait to read it.
I can't wait for people to read it, andI wanna hear what people say, you know?
(41:03):
Uh, we'll, we'll tell peoplehow to get ahold of you.
We'll put your, your links in, in theshow notes so that people can give
you their feedback, their inspiration,how they felt about the book.
Um, I can't wait for it to come out.
You must be super excited.
I am.
Thank you so much, Andrew.
It's been, it's a, been a pleasuretalking with you and I hope
you enjoy the book Absolutely.
Surf for hurricane.com.
Yes, absolutely.
(41:23):
Say that again 'cause Ikind of interrupted you.
Say that one more time.
Uh, how to surf a hurricane.com.
Perfect.
We'll put that link in the shownotes for you guys to get ahold
of that, and we'll put in thecomments on the YouTube channel.
Again, Todd, thank you somuch for writing the book.
Thank you so much for comingon and telling us all about it.
We can't wait to have you back on,uh, and to find out what happened,
you know, what happened duringthis, during this journey of yours.
(41:45):
Um, do you plan, like, I know this,you're still in the first book and
the, and still in the editing processand like the release process and
stuff like that, but do you plan onwriting another one, like a follow up?
Don't tell anyone, but I havestarted working on a sequel.
What?
That's awesome.
Love it.
Alright.
This is gonna be good.
Can't wait to hear more about that.
Thank you very much Toddfor coming on the podcast.
(42:05):
We really appreciate it.
Uh, looking forward to havingyou back on the next time.
Thanks, Andrew.
Thank you, Todd, for joining uson today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
What an interview in terms oftalking about a book that he
just wrote, like pretty muchhis first time with a publisher.
I don't know how you write a book.
I've always wanted to write abook, especially with the amount
of interviews that I've done andthe amount of people that I've
met, amazing people that I've met.
(42:26):
Maybe one day that'll come.
But to write a novel and to just write itevery day for like two to three years to
get rejected so many times, to build thatresilience in yourself just like Todd did,
that's inspiration right there, right?
That's an inspiring journey rightthere to write a novel, not an easy
thing to do, and then hopefully oneday we might see it on the big screen.
(42:47):
I think that would be kind of cool tosee that, but I think it's important to
be able to read this book, to be ableto think about climate change in the
future, near future, and how we adaptto it and to see what those results are.
I can't wait to read this book.
I know you probably can't wait toread this book, so I'm gonna put the
pre-order link in the show notes.
Go get it, buy it.
Support Todd and his effortsalso support in thinking about
(43:09):
climate change in a different wayand support this genre, right?
The solar punk genre.
That's kind of a cool thing to do.
Punk has always been rebellious.
This thought process is a bitrebellious 'cause it's not normally
done, and he's challenging you tothink in a different way, and I just
love the fact that he's doing this.
So thank you again, Todd, and I wannathank you who's listening to this
podcast, who's watching this on YouTube.
I wanna thank you so much forjoining us on today's episode of the
(43:31):
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
If you want to get ahold of me.
You can do so by going to Instagram,DMing me at How to Protect the Ocean,
or you can go on our YouTube channel,subscribe, hit that notification bell so
you don't miss any of the future episodes.
I wanna thank you for joiningus on today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin fromthe True Nor Strong and free.
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
When somebody's talking to you aboutclimate change, how do you feel?
Do you feel like this kind of likeeerie feeling inside this anxiousness,
this bad feeling about what's gonnahappen in the future, thinking about
the future, whether you should havekids, a family, how are we gonna survive
this when you know, politicians arenot really working on this business,
people aren't really working on this,or some people are, some people aren't.
(00:20):
Some people are doing the opposite.
It must feel pretty crappy after awhile, but imagine if you read something
or watched something or did anything.
And it actually made you feel optimisticabout climate change, especially
about climate change adaptation.
Imagine, just imagine if you read a bookthat gave you hope on climate change.
Well, that's what we're gonna betalking about on today's episode of
(00:42):
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I've got author, new author,Todd Maima on the podcast today.
He's talking about his new bookcalled How to Surf a Hurricane.
Just imagine the thought of that Surfinga hurricane, how to surf a hurricane.
It is this.
Fictional book about, you know, likekind of a bit of a sci-fi book about
someone who, it's a heist, it's ina solar punk, novel type of genre.
(01:05):
It's kind of cool and it's outfor presale right now, so I
want you to go out and get it.
But we're gonna hear from Toddabout the book, the process of
writing a book, especially lookingat something that's not often the
narrative that we hear, especiallywhen it comes to climate change.
So here we go.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
(01:26):
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, andthis is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean,how you can speak up for the ocean,
and what you can do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
Today we're gonna be talkingabout a book called How to
Surf A Hurricane by Todd Maima.
This is his first time writing a book.
Well, first time goingthrough a publisher.
He wrote a book, a novel in highschool, but this one is really special.
(01:47):
It's really about.
How to look at climate change in avery different way, an optimistic way.
A lot of us don't really think aboutthat when we hear about climate change.
A lot of doom and gloomassociated with it.
You know, sea level rise.
You have sea surface temperatureincreases, ocean acidification,
coral bleaching, flooding, droughts,wildfires, all that stuff makes
(02:08):
it really difficult to think aboutclimate change in a positive way or
to think about life in the future.
With climate change in a positiveway, a lot of us get anxious about it.
A lot of us, you know,just feel really crappy.
It kind of turns our stomach a littlebit, especially when you see how people
are dealing with it, how politicizedit's, but we don't often hear about in
our regular lives or in our fictionalbooks, or on a podcast or on a video where
(02:32):
things are gonna be fine, things thatmight actually turn out to be okay if we
take it seriously, if we take actions.
You know this book that Todd wroteis going to give you that optimism
is going to say, you know what?
I think we'll be okay aslong as we take action.
And the book isn't gonnainspire you to take action.
In fact, you can go to the link below inthe show notes or in the comments below.
(02:55):
If you're watching this onYouTube, you can go and you
can say, Hey, you know what?
Like, here's a link tohow to protect the ocean.
Todd's got all these resources foryou and strategies and tips on how you
can get started protecting the ocean.
I think this is where books need to go.
I think this is howresources need are built.
They inspire and then they leadyou and guide you towards actions.
What we're trying to build for a longtime in a project, which I've probably
(03:19):
already announced by now, but it's goingto be amazing and you can take part.
So this is a great interview.
Todd's an amazing human being.
He's already in the clean energy industry.
He always wants to do somethingfor climate change, like to reduce
climate change, to help the planet,telling you to spend time for
yourself in nature, and that's howwe learn and get inspired to protect.
This book is gonna help you do that.
(03:39):
I can't wait for youto hear the interview.
So here's the interview withTodd Maima talking about his
book, how to Surf a Hurricane.
Enjoy the interview andI'll talk to you after.
Hey Todd, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk aboutclimate and the ocean?
Hey, Andrew.
I am.
Thanks for having me.
Love it.
I love it.
This is gonna be a lot of fun becausewe're gonna be talking, you know,
(03:59):
about climate change in the ocean,but in a little different way.
A lot of times when we talk aboutclimate change, it's the doom and gloom.
It sucks.
It's no fun.
You know, we get climate anxiety, we getoverwhelm, and there's, we gotta find a, a
different way to be able to discuss this.
And, and Todd, when you reached outto me to be like, Hey, look, I wrote
a book, uh, you know, in a, in asort of a fictional character way,
but talking about climate change.
(04:21):
Talking about oceans in a muchdifferent way than the way we
normally talk about it in society.
And I want to discuss it on the podcast.
And I was like, you know what?
This is a perfect way to talkabout different ways to discuss,
you know, climate change.
Just think about climate change.
So I was like, yes, let's do it.
We booked it, we're here,we're ready to talk about it.
And I can't wait to do that.
But Todd, before we do that,why don't you just let us know
(04:41):
who you are and what you do.
Yeah, so I'm Todd Mamma.
For the past several years, I'veworked directly in clean energy, uh,
on solar and good energy storage.
But really outside of that, uh, I'vebecome extremely passionate about climate
change and, and how we tackle this.
And I've tried to explore it andtackle it from many different
(05:05):
lenses, not just from the technologyside, but from the political side.
I've like volunteeredresistance climate lobby.
I've liaised with senators from.
Like the local volunteering side, runninggreen groups, you know, even from the
personal lifestyle side, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Lived car free cut meat outta my dietand just really trying to understand
(05:25):
what is this problem, what are oursolutions and how do we get there?
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, that's the,that's the question, right?
That's the big, those are the bigquestions that we, that we, we'd been
trying to solve for quite some timegrowing up in, in this type of world.
You know, and, and hearing climatechange, it's, it's been often discussed
in terms of climate denial and everything.
(05:46):
So as like as you grew up getting intothe clean energy industry, how did,
like, why did you follow that path?
Like, you know, growing up probably a lotof people, even maybe parents or aunts
and uncles or like in your family or evenfriends and, and their parents and stuff.
They may have talked in, in, in adifferent way of climate change,
like it's not existing or, you know,there's a lot of controversy around
(06:08):
it politically, it comes into play.
Like what, how did you like getsteered into clean energy industry?
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's a great question.
'cause my family backgroundis more the red state life.
Right, okay.
Questions about climate change.
But I think what it reallycomes down to is, as a kid, I
spent a lot of time in nature.
(06:29):
I was a boy scout, we were hiking,camping, kayaking, you name it.
And so I just really cameto appreciate nature.
Yeah.
And as you know, as I was exposedmore and more to like, Hey, we're
doing these things that are destroyingnature, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
No.
Like I want, I want nature to behere, not just for me, but like.
For, for my friends, my family, my kids.
(06:49):
Yeah.
You know, I want to preserve this.
Yeah, I love that.
I mean, that's what we all want, right?
It really comes down to just,just being in nature and, and
spending time in, in nature.
Um, and so you follow, youfollow a path of clean energy.
So how did you, like, what was your role?
Like what, what did youdo in that industry?
Like what was your title?
Yeah, so my title is asoftware product manager.
(07:12):
Okay.
So I help these clean energy companies.
Develop software that helpsthem operate more efficiently,
helps them design Oh, cool.
You Solar power plants that are cheaperfor their customers and just trying to
drive down the cost of, of clean energy.
That's interesting because that was a bigproblem when it first came out, right?
Solar panels are too expensive.
Like, you know, we put on homes, it'salmost like I, I'll never forget, like
(07:34):
I've grown up in a, in a very, uh,like in a, in a very, like a time where
technology increased immensely, you know,from getting up on the, you know, from
getting up from the couch to have toturn the channel on the TV to having like
massive remotes that are like, you know.
A foot long with like 30 buttonsto, to, you know, demarcate the
channels and stuff like that.
Then to go into like massive TVswhere the backs were like deep and
(07:58):
then you get to flat screen TVs whenthey were super, and all these new
technologies were super expensive whenthey first came out, and I remember.
Uh, vividly when plasma TVs and flatTVs became super cheap, it was, it
almost felt like it was overnight.
It was like when they figuredout how to make them properly,
like, and, and efficiently, right?
Where they can mass producethem, where they're not $2,000.
(08:19):
Every time they come out, the, the,and, and like, if you look at them now,
you can get like a 42 inch TV for what?
Like $300?
$400 and great.
That's crazy quality.
Yeah.
It's insane.
Right?
I feel like that, like the solar panelsindustry went through the same thing.
Like we had solar, we had friends onthe, on the block that had solar panels
back in the eighties, and they were huge.
They were ugly.
(08:40):
Now it's almost to the point, you know,where, where certain companies have
them as like tiles on your, like a like.
Know on your, on your roof.
Yeah.
So they, it just like,looks seamless, you know?
Uh, so there's a lot of, there'sbeen a, a huge sort of change and
shift in, in making them, and, andwe don't really realize that software
is a big part of that into how tomake those, it's all computerized.
(09:02):
How to make it more, uh, efficiently.
Was that a hard thing to do?
Like, is that a hard thing toget into in terms of a software
engineer or software programmer?
Um.
You know, I'm gonna say it wasn'ttoo hard for me because it's
something that I've always enjoyed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I actually got into it from video games.
(09:23):
Uh, okay.
Yeah.
When I was a kid, I lovedplaying video games.
And then my best friend inelementary school actually was
like, Hey, did you know you couldprogram your own video games?
Nice.
And like what?
So I just like taught myselfhow to make, honestly, they were
quite terrible games, you know?
Course I didn't know how games atthat point, but like, you know, um.
(09:43):
And sometimes I get people askinglike, oh, it's the tech industry.
Like, you know, I'm not asoftware engineer, there's
nothing I can do to help.
Yeah.
But like there's.
So many different angles thatwe're tackling this problem from.
Mm-hmm.
And really what I've seen islike every skill set is useful.
Yes.
Like if you love talking with people,if you love doing detail work, you
(10:06):
know, if you love like being out innature, like there are people who go
out and like install these solar panels.
So like if you don't want todesk job, you can help the clean
energy revolution in nature.
Yeah, it's fantastic.
It's, it's, it's a problem that needs tobe solved by everybody and every skillset.
Right?
And I think it's just a matter ofliterally plugging into the problem and
(10:27):
the solutions and understanding how to getthere and how your skillset can, can go.
It's really interesting 'cause Ihave a lot of people who come in,
it's like, I wanna protect the ocean.
I gotta become a marine biologist.
I'm like, no, please don't.
We have so many, there are so many upand coming marine biologists, like,
please, like, what's your skillset?
Oh, you know, I'm in business orI'm a banker, or I'm this, I'm like.
Use it, use that stress, like thatskillset, use that experience to
(10:50):
like, let's look at funding models.
Let's look at, you know, ways toprogram software, ways to program,
you know, ways to make better andmore efficient, like make solar
panels better and more efficient.
Like, you know, there'sso many different ways.
I interviewed someone exactly who'sputting like solar panels on boats.
Like, there's like a, like they put'em in on sailboats and stuff and like.
Into the boat and you'rejust like, this is amazing.
(11:11):
Like to even come up with that idea,you need problem solvers, right?
And that could becomein any kind of format.
Obviously, you know, developers andsoftware engineers like you guys are
really good at that because you're, youknow, that's, that's the skillset that
you bring, the value that you bring.
But there are other people who, likebusiness people who are like skillset.
They have skill sets thatare problem solvers, and they
just do it in different ways.
And I think we need that.
(11:32):
And you have done it in a lot ofdifferent ways, which we're gonna
talk about in a, in a minute.
But it's really cool to see that.
So as you're in this, this, you know,the, the, the clean energy industry,
you're doing these software, uh,models and you're, and you're, and
you're coming up with these programs.
Where do you go from there?
Like, okay, this is like, how come youjust didn't be like, this is my thing.
Like this is great, I'mgonna just continue this.
(11:54):
Or did you find like somethingelse that interested you as you
were growing through that industry?
Yeah, I mean, I, I lovedoing multiple things.
I have a hard time sitting still.
Gotcha.
So I, you know, I'm still in clean energydoing this software, product management.
Yeah.
Um, and.
On top of that, I've always askedmyself like, what are, what are ways
(12:16):
that we can move the needle on this?
And actually the, the reason I startedwriting this book about two years
ago was this, uh, someone shared astat with me that humans are like,
I don't know, something crazy, like30 times more likely to remember a
story than a piece, like a statistic.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Because like we are such story-driven Yes.
(12:39):
Creatures.
Yeah.
So, you know, I really got tothinking like, are we communicating
about climate change wrong?
Is that, are we shootingourselves in the foot?
'cause we're just like,numbers, numbers, numbers.
Yeah.
And everyone's like, I, whatdo these numbers even mean?
Um, and I don't know, like the same day.
It was kind of one of those, youknow, funny coincidence, someone
else sent me this idea of like,
(13:02):
in climate we have thesethree story archetypes.
Either the tech billionairegenius will save us all.
Future generation, thekids will save us all.
Mm-hmm.
Or the future is gonna be aunrelenting hellscape that we deserved.
And like, you know what?
You're totally right.
I see one of those three archetypesand basically every story and
(13:24):
yes, we need something else.
Yes.
Oh my gosh, it's so true.
But there is another one.
I feel like there's the scienceI told you, so you get that a lot
in like apocalyptic movies, right?
Where you have like the geologist or themarine biologist who's just like I told
you, you shouldn't have messed with that.
And then No, nobody, everybodyignores that person and then all
hell breaks loose and they have tohelp, they have to help solve it.
(13:46):
Yeah.
That's, that's kind of that third oneof like, you know, we, we were warned
and like, the future's gonna suck.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And you know, in some ways it makes sense.
Like, you know, listen to yourelders, listen to your scientists,
like they're telling you.
Yeah, for sure.
You know.
But I think also, like one of thethings that's really missing is like,
if you're not a tech billionaire,if you're not like a teenager.
(14:10):
There, there's no other stories about likehow you as just like an ordinary So true.
More like middle aged personhelp contribute in your lifetime.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like so many of these,even, so many of these stories
take place in the far future.
And I'm like, well, what aboutthe next like 20, 30, 40 years?
Like, there's so little covering that.
(14:32):
I, I agree.
I also think too, as you were mentioningthat I'm, I'm thinking like, you know,
we expect these heroes to come outand solve those problems, whether it
be a tech billionaire, whether it bea teenager, and we've seen some of
those come out and they get destroyed.
You know what I mean?
Like, people will go after a 16-year-oldgirl or a number of 16-year-old girls
and just tear her to pieces because.
(14:54):
They don't think she can, they, theydon't think that she can do anything.
Or like you have a tech billionairewho tries to come out with somebody
who's like, oh no, all theseconspiracy theories come out.
Like they're trying tocontrol the weather.
They're doing this, they're doing that.
And, and they, and then in a way,people look at that from the outside.
It's like, well, I can't, Idon't wanna be in that position.
Like, I can't do anything.
Yeah.
Because then I'm gonna be called outfor anything, you know, anything I
(15:17):
say is gonna be called out and, andI don't want to be treated that way.
And so it almost like.
Propels you from doing it a littlebit and just being like, no, I'm
just gonna stick, stick in my thing.
I'm gonna, you know, grab my, myplastic drink like, or my drink
that's in a plastic, you know?
Mm-hmm.
You know, single use container.
I'm just gonna continue onmy way, you know what I mean?
And I, and then, so it kind ofsuppresses us a little bit from doing it.
(15:40):
'cause we're like, oh no, I can't, that'sgonna destroy my career, destroy my life.
I don't want to, I don't wanna do that.
Right.
There's, there's a lot of that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so that's where like the thirdpart of this puzzle came in, that like.
When it really clicked, like,okay, I'm gonna write a book.
Yeah.
For a while it's kinda like, oh,I'll just, you know, like try
writing some short stories, butlike, okay, I'm gonna write a book.
I discovered this genre called solar punk.
(16:02):
Have you heard of it?
Solar Punk.
Solar Punk, okay.
No, I've never heard of that.
Okay.
I, it's a pretty newbudding genre, so, okay.
You know, it's, it is, it's not likeit's classically defined 'cause people
are still figuring out what it means.
Yeah.
But it's, it's kind ofthe opposite of cyberpunk.
Okay.
Like cyberpunk is.
Dystopian future with liketechnology ruining everything.
(16:25):
Okay.
Solar punk, in my mind is a hopefulfuture where we as humans, as
individuals and communities workwith nature to build a better future.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, ah, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, and that tracks, I mean, you look atany conservation project that's succeeded.
It's done as a community.
(16:46):
It's done with the community.
It's done in like incollaboration with that.
It's not just done by one person who'slike trying to hog all the attention.
It's done as a community.
So that, that makes sense.
As, as a book.
Why, why do you think this is such a,like, why do you think it's only new now?
Like why do you think peopleare only coming out with it now?
This type of genre?
I have two.
(17:06):
Two hypotheses.
Okay.
One is that fear cells.
Right.
True.
Like we are so biologically wiredto be afraid of things that like
if you just took the same story,like if you took iRobot Yeah.
And turned it into like robotsare gonna be just amazing and
there's no problems at all.
People like literally wouldn't believe it.
They wouldn't buy it.
Yeah.
Like yeah.
It's gonna be a total flopat the, there's no conflict.
(17:27):
They need conflict.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and
I would say the other oneis like these stories.
There's utopian fiction, butit's always so far off, right.
Star Trek, like infinite free energy,universal basic income, et cetera.
But it's like 400 years from now.
(17:49):
Yes, but like where solar punk reallylike means something to the genre is like
kind of the next a hundred years, likethe messy middle where we're trying to
figure out where, where hope is like.
A question rather than kind of agiven in a, in a distant utopia.
Yes.
Uh, and what I learned as I startedwriting this book and thinking about
like, Hey, am I gonna publish this?
How do I publish it?
(18:10):
Uh, it turns out it's actually very hardto publish near future books like this
because they're like instantly dated.
They expire so quickly.
Right.
You know, any, any like predictionsyou make in your book in five years,
they're gonna turn out to be wrong.
So your book is a very short shelf life.
Get it.
I get it.
Yeah.
So now, now, so how do you, so, sothis like solar punk type of, of novel,
(18:36):
you know, it, it, it expires quickly.
So why, why do you think peopleare catching onto it now, like,
or are really enjoying it now?
Is it just because it's so near future?
People wanna know what the near future is.
People want to knowwhat the near future is.
And I think it's also this rebellionagainst the oversaturation of
fear and anxiety in our world.
Hence the punk a part of it.
(18:56):
Yeah.
People are just so desperatefor, tell me something besides,
the future's gonna suck.
Yeah.
And like when you, when youreally think about it, like, the
future is what we make of it.
Yeah.
And what we make of it is reallyinformed by the stories that we read.
So in a way, it's almost an actof creative rebellion to see
like, we're surrounded by fear.
(19:17):
Everyone thinks the future'sgonna suck, but like, what
if, what if it does work out?
Yeah.
And like you share that idea with peopleand you're actually like helping to
build that future through storytelling.
Right, right.
And, and I mean, I, that's, that'sthe beauty of it, is to kind of give
you, is to unlock that hope in you.
I think hope is a very powerful,you know, powerful way to do it,
(19:37):
but you still, you can still haveconflict, but give hope in that way.
Right.
Yeah.
This, uh, was probably the hardestpart about writing this book was.
In a book about hope,what is the conflict?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, in a book that's not dystopian.
Mm-hmm.
Why are, so the book is a heist.
(19:58):
Right?
Right.
And like usually in a heist it's like, whywould someone participate in this like,
super dangerous, illegal thing if there'slike nothing going wrong in their life.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so it's very interestingto navigate that and, and find
something that was hopeful and yet.
Yeah.
Dangerous and exciting.
Yeah.
So I want you to, as you kind ofalluded to it, but I want you to
give us the, the, the, without givingtoo much away, you know, we know
(20:22):
it's a, it's a solar punk heist.
Give us a little bit of a premiseof what people can think about.
Like what, what would be on theback of the book, what's gonna be on
the back of the book to give a likethat, that, that, that lull to of
like, Hey, how do I wanna read this?
Yeah.
So if you've ever askedthe question of what.
Lives in our life.
Climate change adaptation will look like.
(20:44):
Mm-hmm.
You're gonna wanna read this.
Okay.
And if you've ever read ina climate book and just been
like, dear job, this is boring.
And you want somethingthat's actually fun to read.
Yeah.
This is first and foremost, uh, like highstakes, thrilling page, turning heist.
So like, if you want something enjoyableto read and where you just happen to like
(21:04):
get some new ideas about our future, like.
Check this out.
I love that.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna clip that,that's gonna be the commercial
for, for this type of book.
I, I think it's great.
And, and you know, you want somethingthat, like you're on the edge of
your seat as you're reading it.
Um, you know, it, it's, it's,you're, you're following the story
closely, but you're seeing, I, Iassume what's happening is you're
(21:25):
just seeing the world that theylive in while they do this heist.
Right.
And how they've adapted to climate change.
Uh, almost in a way, and theway I'm thinking of it, like.
I can remember Dem themovie Demolition Man.
Whereas in the future, I don't, I forgethow many years in the future, uh, but
like Sylvester Stallone, Wesley Snipes,they're in there, they've been frozen.
They all of a sudden they're discoveringthis new future where they've adapted,
(21:48):
you know, no violence, no this, no that.
And then all of a sudden this iswhat they live in and they, they're
trying to change or they're tryingto like stay true to themselves.
It's a really interesting thingwhere I think the major restaurant,
the nice restaurants were TacoBell, I think, and, and it's,
you know, very weird kind of way.
But I think that's what it is.
It's just like, here's thestory that's happening.
It's a, it's a heist, and then thisis the, the world that they live in.
(22:10):
So you kind of discover what afu, like a near future world of
climate change is gonna look like.
Yeah.
And I, I was really intentional about,so it's, it's an ensemble heist, right?
There's a whole cast of characters.
Gotcha.
And each one of those characters hashad a very different experience in the
world of how climate change is affectingthem and how they're adapting to it.
(22:32):
So even as you just get to meet thecharacters, you're learning about other
parts of the world, other challengesthey're facing, how are they solving it?
Uh, you know?
Yeah.
Well in heist.
I love it.
I love it.
Now, you know, obviouslythis is in the future.
We're not, we're not psychic.
Uh, where did you come up with someof the, the sort of the environments
(22:55):
that you're gonna, that the reader'sgoing to encounter in this book?
How did you come up with it?
Uh, did you try and look as,as what it would consider to
be as accurate as possible?
So that was one of my goals.
Uh, my, my tagline for this book isbasically The Martian meets Ocean 11
in a world adapting to climate change.
Okay.
So it has to be a fun heist.
(23:16):
Yeah.
And, you know, very accurate,very scientifically backed.
Right.
Uh, and so yeah, I consultedwith a lot of people.
Uh, um, just anytime that I wantedto pull something in, I would
make sure to talk to an expert.
Like how, like how would this happen?
How would you adapt?
Right.
So when you, when you do a, when youwrite, like is this your first novel?
(23:39):
Um, well I did write one in, inhigh school, but this is going
to be my first published novel.
Okay.
Well, no, but that's importantthough 'cause it's not your first
time going through the process.
Maybe with an actual publisherit's probably different, I assume.
Mm-hmm.
When you set out to write this book,like why did you decide this book?
Like obviously you had some experience,a little bit of experience in high
(24:00):
school, what made you do a book andnot like a podcast or you know, like a
YouTube channel or something like that?
Like what made you decideI'm gonna write this book?
Well, when I started, uh, I wasn't sureif I was going to publish it or not.
Okay.
I felt the creative need to writea book and, you know, that's what
(24:21):
felt accessible to me at the time.
Um, you know, uh, it seems a bitmore straightforward to put words
on a page than to figure out mm-hmm.
All the video editing, um, or even soundediting, you know, ma made do those
to you on, on figuring all that out.
Um, and so I just, you know, Istarted writing it for fun and then
I hit like 50, 60, 70,000 wordsand was like, oh, I made something.
(24:46):
Like, I kind of care about it andI think it has a good message.
Maybe I should like, you know,take it seriously and like hire an
editor and like figure this out.
I love it.
I love it Now, uh, to gothrough this process the first
time, it's gotta be a little.
A little challenging tofigure out what you need.
Obviously going, you know, writing 50to 70,000 words, you make it sound easy.
(25:07):
My friend, like, Todd, this is notan easy thing to do, but you, you
love, I assume you love writing.
So that, that's, that's nothard for you to, for you to do.
But the whole process, like tostart off, where did you go?
Like where, like finding apublisher, all that kind of stuff.
Yeah, and I will say it, itwas hard in the sense of like,
you run into writer's walk.
(25:27):
Yeah.
And you just have to keep writing.
And so, yeah.
Um, I ended up applying skills that I'veused elsewhere in life to form successful
habits of like, if there's a thing youwanna do, make it as easy as possible
and make it like a daily repeating thingso you don't have to think about it.
So I was like, like homescreen in my laptop.
(25:49):
Anytime I open it,first thing is the book.
Yeah.
And then, uh.
Setting like a day, like I'm goingto write for 15 minutes a day.
You know, if it's more thanthat, that's great, but like by
setting that bar at 15 minutes.
It felt more approachable, I'd belike, okay, like I don't even know
what I'm gonna write about, butI'll try writing for 15 minutes.
And 90% of the time it would turninto like a two hour marathon.
(26:11):
Yeah.
Well, 'cause I think I like that.
You, you, you kind ofdo it in a short spurt.
It's like, look, I can do this.
This is doable every day.
Whatever's going on in yourlife, whatever you have to do.
Obviously you're working during thistime, like I assume you're, you're
full still have a full-time job.
Yeah.
So, you know, doing it in littlechunks in 15 minutes, that's great.
And then all of a sudden you'reprobably like, after 15 minutes,
you're like, no, no, no.
I'm on roll here.
(26:32):
I'm just gonna keep going.
I'm just gonna keep rollingwith this story idea or
this, this line in the story.
I'm gonna keep going.
Boom.
All of a sudden you're like, twohours later I've got 20,000 words.
Okay, cool.
Like, I dunno if that's possible, butnot 20,000 words in two hours, but yeah,
no, no, but like, you know what I mean?
Like you've, I've, I've justwritten for two hours, got
some ideas out of your head.
You probably feel like after like one ortwo hours, you probably feel a little,
(26:54):
a little tired mentally, you know, justfrom, from a little drained on, on that.
After doing that right.
Yeah.
It, it was actually really interestingto see how the creative energy, uh, it,
it almost ended up being like physicalenergy, you know, like you work out right?
And then you're like tired.
Yeah.
Like to put forth that creativity,like the creative part of your brain is
(27:15):
like, I need to take a nap, you know?
Yeah.
I get it.
I, I also, sorry, go ahead.
It's kinda like a muscle inthat sense of like, yeah.
Then you can build a creative energy.
You can build your endurance.
You can write for like twoand a half hours, three hours.
So I think that was likea, a helpful framework.
So how many hours do you think ittook you to finish off this book?
(27:36):
Like to write this whole book?
If you, if you, oh, if I hadto, if I had to calculate that
number, it would make me sad.
But if I had to, yes.
I think by the time we publishit, I will probably have spent
about a thousand hours on it.
Yeah.
Crazy.
A thousand hours, like roughlytwo hours a day for, yeah.
(27:57):
Two, you know, two orthree years, so Yeah.
Geez.
And, and working at the same time.
Like, this is your hobby at, at the, likeat this point it's your hobby, right?
Like it, I mean obviously you'regetting it published and stuff,
but you're doing this as anextracurricular activity essentially.
Yeah.
And in a way I think it works well.
(28:19):
Yeah.
Because, you know, I think of likewhat I write in the book and so
much of it is informed by real life.
Where it would be very hard tojust do this in a vacuum chamber.
Gotcha.
But yeah, for sure.
Uh, you know, I'm constantly stealingthings that I see in real life, and I
think that makes the book Yeah, a lotmore interesting and a lot more realistic.
(28:40):
What barriers did you encounterwhile writing this book?
Uh, I, I would say rejection is a big one.
Uh, okay.
And, and like, yeah, so last year whenI started trying to send this out to
(29:04):
publishers where I kind of finishedthe first draft, I'd like run it past
the first draft editor and I was like,okay, I think I have something here.
40 emails out.
39 nos and then one, yes.
Okay.
And I could have stopped at 38 andbeen like, yeah, this is ridiculous.
Like 38 people said no.
Uh, yeah, but I'm stubborn.
(29:25):
So.
Well, I mean it that, well,I mean, it worked, right?
The stubbornness worked.
Yeah.
'cause you, you finally found that,that one, this is not, uh, abnormal,
I assume from the publishing industry.
It's just a lot of, they probablyget pitched all the time.
It's difficult.
And you, you need to find that, Iassume you need to find that one
publisher that believes in thebook, but as it's written Yeah.
And then saying, okay, we, if we, I'm surethey're gonna come with some suggestions
(29:47):
and, and tweaks and stuff, then, thenyou, it's, they feel it's workable.
Right.
Yeah, it actually really helpedme to understand other people's
creative journeys and seethat this is pretty common.
Um, you know, I looked up storiesfrom other authors and like very
frequently I was like, yeah,you know, 95% rejection rate.
Uh, but actually the one thatreally stuck in my mind is Lord
(30:10):
of the Rings and Peter Jackson.
Uh, I was a huge, huge Lord of theRings fan growing up, and I watched
like all of the behind the scenes.
Yeah.
And in one of the behind, behind thescenes, he talks about how he had to
take it to dozens of, of, uh, moviehouses before a single person bit.
And like, you know, I, I have no, I claimthat my book is anywhere near as good as
(30:31):
the Peter Jackson loved during movies.
You never know.
It's like, yes.
If you believe it, youjust have to keep pushing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that'sreally what it comes down to.
But like, and, and in that journey.
I, I assume, like, did you have a lotof self-doubt after each je like, you
know, getting more and more rejections?
Did you have that self-doubt?
Yeah.
(30:51):
Uh, for sure.
And then, you know, not even justwith the publishers, but like, after
I got my publisher and then I startedgetting editor feedback, right.
You know, sometimes I get the feedbackand you'd be like, this is great
and you just need to tweak this.
And I'd be like, cool.
Done.
And sometimes it'd be like, wow,this like whole chapter, this whole
character doesn't, just doesn't work.
Be like, but they're,it's integral to the plot.
(31:13):
If I get rid of them,I have have the book.
Uh,
and how, so how do you react tothat when you get that reaction,
you know, and you're like, Idon't really wanna change that.
Like, from a creative standpoint,this, like you said, this character's
integral to the rest of the book.
How do you re, how do youreact to that kind of stuff?
Do you get, is it like an anger kindof thing or more of like a desperation?
(31:34):
Like, my book will change if I do this?
I would say.
It's
a little sadness or despair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
(31:56):
you know, like you, you invest your heartin a creative project, and so then when
someone's like, this is garbage, you'relike, but does, does that make me garbage?
Right.
This is, this is me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and.
The intimidation too, of havingto make those big changes.
So eventually I found this sort ofprocess where I would like read the
(32:19):
feedback in a very detached mannerand sit on it and actually start first
applying this mental question of like,is this feedback I want to apply?
Right?
Um, what.
What I started realizing, isn't it arelike once you get past the like basic
(32:41):
stuff, like, you know, are there typos?
Like is your grammar good?
A lot of it really boilsdown to artistic choice.
Mm-hmm.
Gotcha.
And subjectivity.
And, you know, I started getting likeconflicting feedback of like, I like this
character, I don't like this character.
I'm like, well, can't please both of you.
So like, I have to go back to what,what the story I want to tell is.
(33:04):
Yeah.
Uh.
And that's, that's hard to do.
'cause you know you want your book to bea success and you think like if someone
gives you feedback, if you apply thefeedback, it'll make it more successful.
Yeah, but Well, and especially with thegenre like you're looking at like solar
punk, you know, like a heist, right?
This is very different than whatmany publishers probably see.
(33:24):
You're trying to.
Provided optimistic look to climate changevery different than what the, the, the
normal narrative is, or the traditionalnarrative is for climate change.
Was that ever, uh, at risk of beingchanged through the editing process?
(33:45):
Um,
I'd say the high level ideawas not, you know, I, right.
I was.
Lucky enough to find a publisherand an editor that understood
what I was trying to achieve.
Uh, and I guess that makes sense.
'cause you know, they, they want,they took it on, they, yeah.
Obvious they have to understand theproject and want that, want that project.
(34:06):
'cause they're gettingpitched with so many books.
If they don't like the exact missionstatement for your book, they're probably
just gonna take on a different book.
But, uh, I mean, I've gotten to thepoint around like, I don't know.
Publisher rejection number 30where it started being like,
maybe I should self-publish.
Yeah.
So there's a whole section of myGoogle search history of like, how does
self-publish a self-publish good idea.
(34:27):
I mean, it's an idea.
I think I would go towardsthat after that many rejection.
Like, you know what?
I'm just gonna self, but there's a, yeah.
So what's the differencebetween getting a, a publisher
and then also self publishing?
Like what, in that process,what's the difference?
Well, okay, for me.
I wanted to go the publishingroute for two read.
(34:49):
One is I really wanted tosee how it can be done Right.
And professionally.
Yeah.
And then learn from that andmaybe do it myself the next time.
Right.
Like I, that's my mentalmodel for learning is like,
watch a professional, do it.
Yes.
And then like copy and paste.
Uh, the other one is I reallyhope it gets turned into a movie.
I, it's like one of my bucketlist items is like, write
(35:12):
something that turns into a movie.
Might not be the book, but like Yeah.
Uh, I felt that going, the, thetraditional publisher route was like
a, gave it kind of a better chanceof being taken seriously as a movie.
Gotcha.
And it makes sense.
And also like, I, I, I think thefeedback is awesome too, right?
To be able to.
Share your, your creative work withpublishers and, and editors, like
(35:33):
professionals that do this each and everyday who have seen countless books, right.
Compared to maybe yourself or others.
Obviously, you're probably wellread and, and things like that.
If you're ready to read a, uh, write abook, but, you know, that's, that's also
a, a, probably a, a plus, a positive.
Getting a published book is just likeyou, you're, you're getting input into the
story, input into the writing style thatmight play a role down the down the road.
(35:57):
If a book does get picked up.
Yeah, no, and I think feedback iscritical to really any creative
process, including writing.
And you know, even outside ofmy publisher, I recruited a
lot of my own beta readers.
Uh, yeah.
Gotcha.
Mostly friends.
But yeah, I actually found likea website online called Critique
(36:17):
Circle, where you post chapters,you read other people's chapters.
They have a really smart system where.
You get credits for reviewingother people's chapters.
Yeah.
And then you needcredits to post your own.
So it's, it kind of keeps this likehealthy economy alive where Yeah.
You're incentivized toreview other people.
It's kind of like ascience journal in a way.
Like, you know, you write, youwrite articles and they ask you
to review articles and that'slike part of the service.
(36:39):
Yeah.
And you know, thankfullyno money is required.
Yeah.
I know the science journalism spaceis running into a lot of the expensive
paywalls right now, but Yeah.
Uh, I actually think that that'sa super interesting model.
Of the future.
Um, because, you know, as partof this whole solar punk idea,
I think community and people aresuch a large part of the problem.
(37:03):
Sorry, part of the solution.
Solution, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Community and people are such a largepart of the solution and one of the
ways that we do that is we figure outsystems that help us align, help us
work better together rather than worse.
Uh, so these platforms.
I mean, Craigslist is like this weirdlyold school, but perfect example of like
(37:26):
if you just, and make a platform wherepeople can buy and sell used items.
Yeah.
I mean, who knows how many, likemillions of tons of CO2 Craigslist has
saved from things being landfilled.
Yeah, it's incredible.
It's true.
'cause normally peoplewould just throw stuff out.
Even for like Facebook marketplaces,people are like, I got this junk,
but I can sell it for 50 bucksand, and just make something
(37:46):
off of it and it gets reused.
So it makes sense to, for reusablestuff, it probably saves a lot, a ton of
stuff from, from going into the, yeah.
Yeah.
Agreed.
Agreed.
That's, that's really interesting.
So, um, with this story, what doyou hope readers get out of it?
(38:07):
I hope that readers of how tosurf for hurricane walk away
believing that there's hope inthe future, and feeling excited
and empowered to take actionthemselves and with their community.
Okay.
Yeah, I like that.
And so, I mean, that's what you want.
(38:28):
You want the call to action.
So part of the book is there like a,will there be like a follow up with you?
You know, you'll probably do sometalks and stuff like that, but
like, is there, like you wantthem to feel a call to action?
So after the book, I'm reading it andI'll be like, oh man, this is awesome.
I feel inspired to do something else.
How will you, like, is there a way thatthey can get directed to something?
Like, are you going to create somethinglike that or say, here are a bunch
(38:50):
of of organizations such as likeSurf Ride or something like that,
that are going to help you, guide youto do that kind of call to action?
Yeah.
Uh, so obviously going to keep doingpodcasts and spreading the word, but also
for listeners of how to protect the ocean.
I've prepared a specialpage on the book's website.
Nice.
How to serve for hurricane.com/protect,which will not only give them a
(39:13):
free sneak preview of the book, butincludes some, some actions and some
ideas on how you can get startedyourself helping to protect the ocean.
I love that.
What a nice surprise.
That's amazing.
Uh, this is a guy who knows how to.
Sell a book.
This is, this is fantastic, I think, but Imean that, that's what's important, right?
When you write a novel like this,you want people to feel inspired.
(39:34):
You want people to take action.
Here, you're providing people with amethodology, some ideas, some strategies.
I think that's, that's fantastic.
And, and I can't wait.
Yeah, I can't wait to read the book.
I can't wait for people to read the book.
Um, people are, as you're readingthis, or as you're listening to
this, you're watching this, thebook, the, the, the pre-orders are
up and you can grab the pre-orders.
(39:55):
I can put the link in the show notes.
Um, Todd, like, as we kind of wrapthis up, like what do you want
people, uh, to feel after this book?
Like what do you want people to do?
I want people.
First and foremost, I wantpeople to spend time in nature.
Yes, that's pro.
Like the single most important thingyou can do is spend time in nature.
(40:18):
'cause it's gonna recharge you.
It's gonna shield you against all the fearand anxiety in the world, and it's gonna
remind you, this is what I'm fighting for.
Yeah.
And then take that energy and act.
Yeah.
There's so many ideas onlineabout how you can act, you know,
find something that makes sensefor your life and your lifestyle.
And build on that action, joinsome sort of group or community
(40:42):
near you with similar desires andgoals to just keep, keep building
on that and enabling other people.
Yeah.
I love that.
I think that's, that's,that's a great, great message.
Uh, you know, Todd, I want tothank you so much for coming on
the podcast, for writing the book.
Uh, I can't wait to read it.
I can't wait for people to read it, andI wanna hear what people say, you know?
(41:03):
Uh, we'll, we'll tell peoplehow to get ahold of you.
We'll put your, your links in, in theshow notes so that people can give
you their feedback, their inspiration,how they felt about the book.
Um, I can't wait for it to come out.
You must be super excited.
I am.
Thank you so much, Andrew.
It's been, it's a, been a pleasuretalking with you and I hope
you enjoy the book Absolutely.
Surf for hurricane.com.
Yes, absolutely.
(41:23):
Say that again 'cause Ikind of interrupted you.
Say that one more time.
Uh, how to surf a hurricane.com.
Perfect.
We'll put that link in the shownotes for you guys to get ahold
of that, and we'll put in thecomments on the YouTube channel.
Again, Todd, thank you somuch for writing the book.
Thank you so much for comingon and telling us all about it.
We can't wait to have you back on,uh, and to find out what happened,
you know, what happened duringthis, during this journey of yours.
(41:45):
Um, do you plan, like, I know this,you're still in the first book and
the, and still in the editing processand like the release process and
stuff like that, but do you plan onwriting another one, like a follow up?
Don't tell anyone, but I havestarted working on a sequel.
What?
That's awesome.
Love it.
Alright.
This is gonna be good.
Can't wait to hear more about that.
Thank you very much Toddfor coming on the podcast.
(42:05):
We really appreciate it.
Uh, looking forward to havingyou back on the next time.
Thanks, Andrew.
Thank you, Todd, for joining uson today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
What an interview in terms oftalking about a book that he
just wrote, like pretty muchhis first time with a publisher.
I don't know how you write a book.
I've always wanted to write abook, especially with the amount
of interviews that I've done andthe amount of people that I've
met, amazing people that I've met.
(42:26):
Maybe one day that'll come.
But to write a novel and to just write itevery day for like two to three years to
get rejected so many times, to build thatresilience in yourself just like Todd did,
that's inspiration right there, right?
That's an inspiring journey rightthere to write a novel, not an easy
thing to do, and then hopefully oneday we might see it on the big screen.
(42:47):
I think that would be kind of cool tosee that, but I think it's important to
be able to read this book, to be ableto think about climate change in the
future, near future, and how we adaptto it and to see what those results are.
I can't wait to read this book.
I know you probably can't wait toread this book, so I'm gonna put the
pre-order link in the show notes.
Go get it, buy it.
Support Todd and his effortsalso support in thinking about
(43:09):
climate change in a different wayand support this genre, right?
The solar punk genre.
That's kind of a cool thing to do.
Punk has always been rebellious.
This thought process is a bitrebellious 'cause it's not normally
done, and he's challenging you tothink in a different way, and I just
love the fact that he's doing this.
So thank you again, Todd, and I wannathank you who's listening to this
podcast, who's watching this on YouTube.
I wanna thank you so much forjoining us on today's episode of the
(43:31):
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
If you want to get ahold of me.
You can do so by going to Instagram,DMing me at How to Protect the Ocean,
or you can go on our YouTube channel,subscribe, hit that notification bell so
you don't miss any of the future episodes.
I wanna thank you for joiningus on today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin fromthe True Nor Strong and free.
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
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