September 2, 2025 • 50 mins
Oceana, working to protect endangered species, is at the heart of this powerful episode featuring Tara Brock, an environmental lawyer advocating for ocean life. Tara unpacks how the Endangered Species Act is used to protect humpback whales and sea turtles, and how legal tools like this remain essential to ocean conservation. As threats like ship strikes, climate change, and bycatch continue to rise, Tara explains why this legislation is still one of the strongest protections we have—and how it’s enforced.
Throughout the episode, we explore Oceana’s litigation strategies, real-world wins in protecting marine life, and the ways the law intersects with fisheries, policy, and public engagement. Tara’s stories and insights offer a clear call to action: the ocean needs legal defenders, and everyone has a role to play in protecting it. If you care about protecting species on the brink, this conversation will inform and inspire you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
A beach goer sees a humpback whale breachoff the coast, unaware it's a species.
Once on the brink beneath the surface,sea turtles struggled to survive
fishing nets and warming oceans.
Tara Brock, an environmental lawyerwith Oceania, works behind the
scenes to defend these species.
The Endangered Species Act is a decadesold, but still powerful law that gives
(00:21):
threatened species a fighting chance.
Legal decisions influence whetherwhales, dodge ship strikes or
sea turtles escape by cash.
ESA enforcement has led to real changelike gear modifications that saved.
Thousands of sea turtles.
Some protections are under attack.
Loopholes are wideningand enforcement is uneven.
Oceania uses litigation science and publicpressure to push for accountability.
(00:46):
Listeners can support policy changes,urge better industry practices, and
speak out for species without a voice.
Every hatchling that makesit to the sea and every whale
breaching free is a reminder thatthe law can work if we use it.
We're gonna be talking about theEndangered Species Act and how
important it is to preserving thisspecific species on this episode of
(01:07):
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and thisis the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the ocean, howyou could speak up for the ocean,
and what you could do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
And on today's episode, we'regonna be speaking to Tara Brock.
(01:27):
She is an environmental lawyer forOceania, and she is here to talk
about the Endangered Species Actand how it can be used as a tool to
protect species that are a littlebit more vulnerable than we think.
And the conservation story is a successfulconservation story that have come.
From enacting this law and following thislaw, it's going to be a great episode.
(01:49):
I can't wait for you to listen, but beforewe do, I wanted to talk to you about
something that's really important tome and I think really important to you.
Do you want to learn how toconserve the ocean better?
Do you want to protect it?
This is something that's really beenof interest for me for a long time.
Something to go beyond just thispodcast and to help guide you to,
(02:10):
you know, live for a better ocean.
I want you to join The Undertow.
It's a new company that I'm theco-founder of with two amazing
women, Serena and Amanda.
We are starting a digital app.
We are creating it.
We are in the process of creating it,and we're almost there to launch it.
We want you to be a part of it.
We want you to learn about wave makerswho are really, you know, breaking
ceilings and looking to protect theocean a little bit more, may not
(02:33):
have the support all the time there.
And we provide an infrastructure inthere for you to be able to not only
listen to their mission, but helpthem in getting closer to protecting
the ocean as well as yourself.
So it's a lot of fun.
We want you to join.
All you have to do is go to speakup for blue.com/join the undertow.
That's speak up for blue.com/jointhe undertow, all one word, and
(02:54):
get on the waiting list to get in.
We're almost ready to launch that app.
Let's get into the interview with TaraBrock, environmental lawyer for Oceana.
I can't wait for you to listen.
Here's the interview.
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
Hey Tara, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk aboutthe Endangered Species Act?
Yes, I am excited to talk aboutthe Endangered Species Act and its
(03:17):
importance for conserving species.
It's funny, you know, when whenwe talk about getting excited for
something, it's not often that weget excited to talk about a piece of
legislation that's really, you know,that's obviously really important.
We're getting into why it's soimportant, but it's something, it's
something that always makes me laugh.
It's like we're gonna talkabout like legislation.
Everybody's like, yay, because it's.
You know, this is something, endangeredSpecies Act is something that is all,
(03:39):
like every country seems to have one.
Like in Canada, we have one where I'mfrom, and then obviously the US has one
federally, and then we also have them,you know, in states and in provinces.
They play a very, you know,important role in conservation.
But we don't really talk a lotabout them, but we, we hear about.
The, you know, this, this type oflegislation, sometimes in a good
way, but oftentimes in a bad way, uh,because of the types of animals that
(04:03):
are there and the level of, of, I guess,where they are in terms of extinction
or protection and, and what, and howmuch information they need or how
much protection they actually need.
So it's, it's a very importantlegislation, but I always
just find it funny how.
We get excited to talk about legislation,but you are a lawyer and so this is
what you like to talk about and so doI, and so this is gonna be a lot of fun.
(04:24):
But before we get into talking aboutthe Endangered Species Act, Tara,
let's get to know you a little bit.
Why don't you to let the audienceknow who you are and what you do.
Well, yeah, thanks again for having me.
Definitely get excited intalking about conservation laws.
So this is, I'm excited to be here.
Um, my name's Tara Brock.
I am Pacific Legal Directorand Senior counsel at Oceana.
(04:46):
So my job entails working on allmanner of ocean conservation issues
off the West coast in Alaska.
We work on responsible fisheriesmanagement, reducing plastic pollution
in the ocean conserving species, um, andreally just making sure that the oceans
remain a really healthy place becauseof their importance to life on earth.
(05:08):
It is a tall order, you know, to,to protect the oceans, especially
from the, from, from the courtsor from a legislative perspective
and a law and a law perspective.
Uh, how did this all come aboutin terms of becoming a lawyer?
When did you start to think, thisis what I want to do, you know,
when I, when I grow up and, and didyou always think that this is where
(05:30):
you're gonna end up in environmentallaw and protecting the ocean?
Oh, that's a great question.
I, I definitely do not have alinear path, I think, to this work.
I was actually an art major in undergrad.
And I worked with a lotof different materials.
I liked collecting materials.
I worked with a lot of trash, frankly, tomake my pieces interesting, and that led
(05:53):
me to working with our local recyclingfacility and collecting a lot of the
plastics from there, and learning thatplastic bottle caps weren't recycled at
the time, and just seeing the mountains ofwaste that was coming into that facility.
Some that was getting recycled, somethat wasn't, and researching all of that.
And it was right at the time thatCaptain Charles Moore with the Alita
(06:17):
Foundation was discovering the GreatPacific Gyre, which perhaps some of
your listeners have heard about, buta floating mass of plastics out in the
ocean, most of them tiny particles.
And so that was just cominginto the public's forefront.
And so my art.
Started to sort of reflect some ofthat and become more of education
about what was going on in ouroceans and environment and how our
(06:40):
waste was contributing to that.
And so I picked up an environmentalminor while I was at school,
and the rest is history.
I got hooked in environmental advocacyworking with Environment Michigan.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then found my way out tothe West coast for law school at
Lewis and Clark, one of the bestenvironmental law schools in the country.
And.
(07:01):
Once I saw the Oregon coast,I was definitely hooked on, on
helping, protect and do ocean law.
It is absolutely, um,magnificent out here.
The West coast really is beautiful.
It well, absolutely it is.
That's my, my non-linear pathtowards, uh, becoming a lawyer and,
uh, diving into ocean conservation.
I, I mean, I love that, you know, a lotof the, something that I've discovered,
(07:24):
'cause I ask all my guests, you know,how did they get to where they got?
And one of the things that I'verealized fairly quickly is that.
It's never a linear path,you know, very rarely.
You know, sometimes it is, but veryrarely is, is it a linear path of
where they got, like where theystarted to where they wanted to go,
and then they got there that way.
And just a straight, straight line.
It's always meandering and, andI feel like that is part of how
(07:46):
they got to where they go is theexperiences that they pick up.
For you, Tara, it sounds like it was, youknow, as you were, as you were, you know,
making these pieces out of, out of trash.
And you start to realize in therecycling industry, it's not what it is.
It was advertised as a lot ofthings weren't getting recycled.
And then you start to realize,well, hold on a second here.
What, what can I do?
(08:07):
Uh, when you mentioned that you took, youpicked up, uh, an environmental minor.
Was that like an environmental scienceminor or was it more, uh, like, like in
the advocacy, uh, public affairs domain?
How, how did that work?
Uh, that's a great question because itwas actually called a Global change minor,
which was really new program at the time,at the University of Michigan, and it was
(08:32):
through the School of Natural Resources.
But it focused both on howthe earth changes naturally.
Mm-hmm.
And how humans are impacting that.
So we studied population demographics,but also natural processes.
But it wasn't strictly like anenvironmental science, um, uh, minor.
It was definitely involved a lot biggerpicture on how the earth was changing
(08:56):
and how humans were impacting that.
And so I feel very lucky that Iwas able to, to partake in that.
I think it was only the first or secondyear they were offering it at the time.
Yeah.
Um, and really cool, uh, programto be able to, I can imagine.
I mean that, I feel like everybodyshould have to go through a program like
that just to really fully understandwhat, you know, what, how, what
(09:17):
influence we have on the planet andhow we're, we're changing the planet.
That obviously kickstarted aninteresting career for you, you
know, in, in environmental advocacy.
When you get outta school, whatmakes, like, where did you head first?
Like, what makes you go from school anddoing like, you know, obviously fine arts,
which you could have gone into the, the,the art direct, like the direction of
(09:38):
art with, you know, ocean conservation orconservation in general, or you know, you
went the environmental advocacy route.
What was like your first step and didyou really fully understand where you
wanted to go after that at that point?
Well, that's, uh, you know,I don't know that I fully
understood where I wanted to go.
I graduated law school in 2011,which was not the best time
(10:02):
to graduate from law school.
Right.
Jobs were scarce.
Yep.
And so I was applying everywhere.
I did not have a job when I came.
Outta law school, but duringlaw school I had volunteered
with a lot of organizationsincluding Surf Rider Foundation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which works to protectoceans, waves, and beaches.
Focus a lot on recreational users.
(10:23):
And it was such a great experienceand it's really where I feel like
I, I cut my teeth and organizing andadvocacy and how people and people's
voices can be used to change policyand change impact on the ground.
And so I kept volunteering.
I kept, uh, putting myselfout there and showing up.
(10:44):
I worked for a strategic consulting firmfor a while, helping other nonprofits
be successful in their campaigns.
And over time, I, um, ended upworking at the Pew Charitable Trust
and working on fisheries, uh, policy.
And so that's sort of the, the not linear,again, path that I came out of law school.
(11:05):
So it was, um.
It was a great experience, honestly.
Yeah.
Having and volunteering, you know,I think that that's a great way to
get involved and to learn things,um, that you're not an expert in.
I don't have a marine biology degree.
I don't, um, you know,have that background.
But learning by doing and learning bylistening to others was just so valuable.
(11:27):
Not only having the legal sideof things from my education,
but really learning that.
Advocacy toolkit from, from Surf Riderand others, um, and how to run campaigns.
Absolutely.
I mean, you seem to have received alot of experience, uh, over a wide
variety of, of, of types of campaigns,not only from a notion perspective,
(11:48):
but a recreational perspective.
And then working with, you know, a, aplethora of nonprofit organizations,
I'm sure you know, across thegambit of, of running campaigns.
Let me ask you this because Ifind this is always interesting.
You come from a very creativebackground doing a degree in fine arts.
How has that helped you in adapting tothe, the different types of campaigns and
(12:13):
the different types of what seems to besubject matters that come up and topics
that come up that you are able to cover?
Do you find that having thatcreative background allows you that.
That wiggle room or that that spaceto, to be able to think out of the
box and, and bring that to the table.
Uh, when you run these types of campaigns.
Absolutely.
I always say that having a creativemindset, being open-minded and thinking
(12:38):
really out of the box sometimes isthe best way to approach something.
You know, we, we can be very linear inour goals and our policy objectives,
and without thinking about maybewho else should be at the table.
Or what other constituencymight care about this?
And really thinking about othertactics and frankly, using art
(12:59):
in, in a way to educate people.
Um, there's a great organizationcalled Wash to Shore.
Mm-hmm.
Here in Oregon.
Based here in Oregon that makes theseamazing sculptures out of marine debris
or trash that they find on the beach.
And they're gorgeous.
I mean, and you just don'teven realize that that is all
stuff collected from the ocean.
Such a good adv adv advocacy toolto educate the public about this
(13:23):
problem of plastics in the oceanand, and connecting for people,
making that connection for people.
So absolutely being creativeand having that creative mindset
is so beneficial to this work.
And thinking creatively about how we mightframe a policy or even draft a policy to
get the outcome we want, um, while stillconsidering other, you know, other needs.
(13:45):
And so I definitely thinkit's, uh, it's helpful.
I can imagine.
I you, when you mentioned the, the, theart of from trash, it, it reminded me
at out Toronto Zoo here, uh, there wasa display and I, I feel like was the
soro may have built the, the displays,but it was this massive polar bear,
like lifesize polar bear made of trash.
(14:05):
And when you look at it,you, you were in awe.
You're like, wow, this is really cool.
Like this is huge and itlooks like a polar bear.
Uh, you know, it's got the samekind of features, and then as you
get closer and closer you realizethese are everyday trash materials.
That, and, and what we think isrecycled materials that we expect.
Gets recycled or gets disposed ofappropriately, but are found in the
ocean or are found in our landscapes.
(14:27):
And you realize like, oh my gosh, likeI use a lot of these materials and
this is what this animal's made of.
And you're like, this is a lot ofmaterial to make this massive, you
know, animal like lifesize animal.
And it, and it, it makes youthink, you know, and in terms
of that, and I find that.
Art plays such an important rolein that, in, uh, in conservation.
I don't think we realize it when we, whenwe see it, but if you sit back and think
(14:49):
about it, it's, it's really interesting.
Um, and so when you, when you getto Oceania, um, you know, you get to
it in, I think it was 2019 when you,when you, when you started there.
Um.
What was your thinking like?
What did you come in, like?
You come in as a, as a council forthe Pacific region, for Oceania.
Um, you know, obviously Oceania is a,is a great organization covering a,
(15:10):
a lot of different, as you mentioned,a lot of different topics, plastic
pollution, fisheries, and so forth.
What, uh, what was like your, yourfirst projects that you were working
on when you were working with Oceana?
Well, my first, I think 30 dayson the job, we ended up filing,
uh, litigation, so, okay.
(15:31):
Over anchovy, so, okay.
It was, um, almost immediate.
I believe I, I was, uh, having to, tochange my brain into more of a real
lawyer focus and file litigation overthe management of anchovy off our coast.
And so.
That was one of the firstthings I did on the job.
It was, um, but it was great to beable to dig in and, uh, my previous
(15:56):
work had not, uh, required mereally to use my to do litigation.
We did.
That wasn't a tool that myprevious jobs had utilized.
But Oceania, it's one ofthe tools in the toolbox.
We, of course, interesting usecommunications and other and other
means to achieve our objectives, butwhen needed, Oceania also takes the
step of going to court and enforcingour environmental laws like the
(16:19):
Endangered Species Act when we needto, and when we feel that there
has been a violation of the law.
So yeah, really, really great tostep right into that role and be able
to use my, my law degree for, forthose purposes on a campaign that
Oceania had been working on for.
For many years before that.
That's really interesting.
I, I always find it interesting withlike a, an organization like Oceano,
(16:41):
the, the amazing work that it's ableto do, uh, across like science policy,
advocacy, uh, conservation and law.
I find a lot of organizations, theydon't talk a lot like enough about
the law, uh, that the like, like thelitigation matters that they discuss.
I almost feel like it's a story withinitself in terms of all the different
(17:02):
tactics that you're able to use using.
Litigation and we don'thear about it enough.
We hear about the science and wehear sometimes about the policy
that's, that's made or the wins orsometimes the shortcomings, but we
never really hear about the the law.
And it's so funny 'cause I think whenpeople think about lawyers, they think
about suits and they think about corporatelaw and they think about money being
made and, and businesses and so forth.
(17:23):
I almost find there needs to be likea Suits environment type of of show.
So we can start to see.
Some of the things that you guys,that everybody goes through when
it comes to law, how, what'sthe challenge as a lawyer, as an
environmental lawyer that you face,like working with an organization
like Ocean N that has a lot of power.
It has a lot of lobby power, it has a,you know, it has a big constituency.
(17:45):
Um, when you come to court, what's the,what are the, some of the challenges that
you guys face as a team of, of lawyers?
Well, we're, we come to court prepared.
We don't bring litigation unlesswe think we have a very good case.
And, um, so I think the best thingOceania does is that we don't just
(18:07):
litigate, we also campaign, we do thescience, we do the advocacy, we build up
the record so that when we're in court,we know that it's based on science,
um, and that we have a good case.
There.
So that's one of the thingsthat Oceania just does so well.
We use all the tools in the toolbox.
We get, we get the public engagement,we use communications to make sure
(18:29):
we're communicating to the public anddecision makers about what's going on.
And litigation is often sort ofthe last, the last resort, right?
We're trying to work within, um,other realms with decision makers.
And sometimes at the end of the day.
There has been a violation oflaw that we need to go enforce.
And so that's one thing Oceania doesreally well is has the whole, the whole
(18:51):
picture when it comes to advocacy, andI think that's like a, that's goes,
it speaks to the team that you have.
At Oceania and, and the differentdepartments that you have and how well
you all work together to provide thatinformation if you need to go to court
and, and, and stop something fromhappening, like you said, it's the last,
sort of last move that you need to make.
If a, if a law has been, uh,you know, disregarded or not,
(19:13):
or not followed properly, uh,which I think is interesting.
Speaking of laws, let's talk abouta piece of legislation that's really
important, the Endangered Species Act.
Can you discuss, discuss likewhat the Endangered Species Act
is and, and how it protects?
Specific animals that make the list?
Sure.
The, the Endangered Species Act, Imean, the primary goal is to protect
(19:34):
and conserve, threatened and endangeredspecies and also the areas and
habitats that they need to, to surviveand avoid extinction and recover.
So those, that's really the maingoal of the Endangered Species
Act and to identify those species.
Um, there's, there's definitions of whatit means to be endangered or threatened.
Mm-hmm.
(19:54):
Endangered means that they are, youknow, threatened with extinction
within, uh, the near future.
And if, and threatened isthat they're likely to be.
Um, extinct within the foreseeable future.
So once we've identified those species,once, uh, the relevant agency, it's either
(20:15):
the Fish and Wildlife Service or theNational Marine Fishery Service, depending
on what species you're looking at.
Um, but they will look at the science,the, the, the status of the threats to
that species, the population status,um, the population growth or decline.
And, and the habitat, the availabilityof the quality and quantity of
(20:35):
the habitat for that species.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and determine if it'swarranted for listing.
And once they are listed, a whole hostof amazing protections come into place.
You have the requirement todesignate critical habitat.
You have a prohibition on what is calledtake of species, which is a technical
definition, but it pretty much means,you know, anything that might harm
(20:59):
harass, you can't hunt any of those,and it's pretty broad definition of
what it means to take a species and youcan't even attempt to do those things.
That is also prohibited.
So you get this very broad,uh, protections right away
when a species is listed.
And it also requires thedevelopment of recovery plans.
So putting together that roadmap Yes.
(21:20):
Looking holistically at the species,what does it need to come back
from the brink of extinction?
And so that's sort of the, in the nutshellof, uh, yeah, what the Endangered Species
Act does when looking at specific species.
Uh, recovery plans are suchan important part of that act.
You know, something that as a scientist,I always, I always acknowledge because,
you know, with, you could put something,an animal on a list and say, Hey, we,
(21:43):
we can't do anything, you know, furtherto, you know, decrease this population
size or, or harm this animal orharass this animal in any kind of way.
Whether we mean to or not.
We have to really, youknow, focus on this.
Um, but.
Yeah, that doesn'tnecessarily help them recover.
It could stop the harm and it canstop, maybe a decrease or slow down, a
(22:03):
decrease, but there's always somethingthere that will harm the animal,
especially with all the cumulativeimpacts that we see with animals.
Not just one thing.
One thing might be accelerating thedecrease, but it's not only just just
one thing, and to have a recoveryplan in place to identify all these
different effects, to identify allthese different influences to identify.
If we stop this, what do we need to do?
(22:24):
Is there a repopulation aspect to it?
Is it just a protection?
Is it like protecting specific habitat?
What habitat to protect?
And I always find it interesting because.
Uh, when governments come in and theywant to develop natural resources, or
they want to develop a piece of landor a piece of water, and they, you
know, the Endangered Species Act sortof, you know, quote unquote slows them
(22:48):
down as they like to say, uh, which isway I always find ironic because that's
the whole point, is to not jump intodecisions and, and look at what's there.
Uh, you know.
The recovery plan is there to stopthose efforts from happening and,
and slow down those efforts fromhappening so that these animals can
be protected and these habitats canbe protected, not just the animals.
(23:08):
And I think we, we know thatyou mentioned that too, it's
looking at habitat availability,food availability, and so forth.
It's such an important aspect to that whenit comes to the Endangered Speech Act.
From a legal aspect, what haveyou found in your experience?
Get like people try to cir circumventthe most when it comes to the act or
(23:29):
just maybe not the most, but just someof the items they try and circumvent
even though it's part of the legislation.
Well, I think the, um.
You know, looking at, uh, any sortof activity that might impact a
species, um, there is going to be anassessment of what needs to be done to
protect that species from that impact.
(23:50):
Yeah.
And I don't know, you know, that we seea whole lot of, um, people necessarily
trying to violate that, but maybeit's skirt, the requirements from.
You know, uh, not wanting, making,making it go faster, making sure
that we see, um, a faster result toget their permit, which might have
mitigation measures in place, right?
Mm-hmm.
(24:11):
That might be, Hey, we, we, you need todo some mitigation work here to ensure
you don't have impact this species.
Maybe it's that you don't fish ina certain area because that is.
That area is important for thisspecies, um, for feeding or breeding
or any other number of reasons.
Um, so I don't know that there's a lotof intentional trying to skirt the act,
(24:31):
but certainly as you said, we hear thatpeople want to move faster and not,
not stand in the way of development.
Um, I think it's important to notethough that, you know, endangered species
and, and species generally biodiversityhas such a large economic impact.
And so it's not just about the, theeconomic impact side of development
(24:52):
and progress in that way, but alsojust the value that we have, um, for
these species, both from an ecotourismperspective and the broader benefit.
If you save one species, that can havecascading effects for a whole ecosystem.
That might not even be, youknow, apparent at the start.
Absolutely.
(25:12):
Can you talk a little bit about, maybean example of something that Oceania
has worked on in the past, uh, inregards to the Endangered Species Act?
Just to give us a little taste of,of what type of work that's been
done, uh, to uphold, you know, the,the Endangered Species Act when it
comes to a, a particular species.
Absolutely.
We do a lot of workwith endangered species.
(25:35):
Um, on the East coast.
We work with North, northAtlantic, right whales, which
are really critically endangered.
They have very low population levelsright now and we have been working to slow
vessels down, um, and getting a vesselspeed rule because that's one of the main
threats to species, as well as workingon getting rope list gear or pop-up
gear in place in the lobster fishery.
(25:57):
So making sure that whalesdon't get entangled in gear,
which is also a major threat.
Mm-hmm.
So those are two regulatorythings we've been trying to work
on to help protect that species.
And out on the West coast outhere, we have worked with,
um, on Southern Resident.
Uh, killer whales, right, both frompetitioning to ensure that critical
habitat was designated for that speciesbecause just because a species is listed,
(26:21):
we don't always see the concurrent listingof critical habitat with that species.
Yeah, sometimes it takesan additional step.
To ensure that that gets designated.
So Ocean has petitioned the agencyto ensure that critical habitat
gets designated for certain species.
Mm-hmm.
And also to make sure prey availability.
So Southern residents are prettyspecific feeders they like.
(26:44):
Salmon, very specific salmon.
So we have worked at the RegionalFishery Management Council to ensure
there's a salmon threshold mm-hmm.
Where salmon, enough salmongets left in the water for
those orcas to eat and survive.
So there's a, there's several differentother examples I could provide as well
where we have worked on, um, right.
Protecting endangered species sort of onthe ground in those ways and getting more
(27:08):
protections in place and using those.
Guideposts of the law to make surethat we're protecting those species and
that they can have a chance to recover.
Yeah, you mentioned somethingthat was really interesting to me.
Petitioning the, likethe government to mm-hmm.
Either put in this, thisconcurrent protections of, you
know, adding critical habitat.
'cause sometimes, like, let's be honest,you know, I've worked in government before
(27:31):
and, and there are sometimes where thereare resources that are allocated based
on, uh, prioritization of the, of thegovernment that's in play at that time.
And so some, some species might getmore, uh, love than, than others.
And sometimes thingsget lost in the mix and.
That when you look at the recovery plansand what needs to be designated and
the, and what you need to follow fromthe law, it doesn't always get done.
(27:52):
Not necessarily to say that it's,you know, that government that's
trying not to put those in.
Sometimes it's just the resourcesare spread too thin and, and
they, and they have to do that.
But, but other times it's, it's nefarious.
Other times they want to keep somethingout because they wanna develop something
and they just slow their role in termsof, of, of trying to get stuff done.
So it, it goes both ways.
Um, but when you petition a, a governmentto do this type of work, can you just
(28:16):
talk a little bit of what that processlooks like, um, from a legal framework?
Sure.
Well, under the Endangered SpeciesAct, anyone can petition the,
a, an agency to list a species.
So at a very.
Basic level of getting a species ontoa list, now you're gonna wanna provide
a lot of scientific backing mm-hmm.
For why you believe that's warranted.
(28:38):
Um, but you can, anyone can petitionthe agencies to list a species.
And so that is a very importanttool when we do see that.
You know, as we, as we know rightnow, agencies are under-resourced and
underfunded, and they don't necessarilyhave the time and resources to go
do a assessment for every species.
(28:58):
But organizations and people working onthe ground might have that information
and be able to petition the agency.
And they will turn around and, and do a 90day finding, saying, is there substantial
information here that we, mm-hmm.
That we think is warranted to move to thenext step, which is a 12 month finding
on whether or not that species shouldbe added to the endangered species list.
(29:20):
So that's one place youcould petition the agency.
Another is petitioning fordesignation of critical habitat.
So a species might be listed, butagain, not have that associated
habitat, which we know is so important.
And which in itself has protectionsagainst, you know, being impacted
by actions of the federalgovernment and private actors.
So really important piece that doesn'talways get designated right away.
(29:45):
And so we have to go to the agencywith proper information saying,
here's the, the science we have onwhere this species uses, what habitat
the species uses, where it's at.
And petition the agency to thendesignate that, which again triggers
additional protections for those areas.
Um, so a couple differentplaces to petition.
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, uh,a couple things that stood out to me in
(30:09):
your answer there, because a, a lot of us,you know, who are not part who, who may
not be in the industry, like, or, or in agroup like Oceana, we might be following,
you know, the emails and things like that.
But it really goes toshow how much the staff.
At, at these nonprofit organizations,these environmental organizations
watch and research what's beingdone at, at every different
(30:33):
level and every different aspect.
The amount of meticulous work thatgoes in to be like, okay, so this,
this species isn't listed, but we'veseen, you know, we've read the science,
we're working with scientists, we'vetalked to scientists, we've built
relationships within the community.
We know this species is decreasing.
Let's examine whether it needs to to belisted and let's do the work and then
(30:54):
present it to the government Almost.
Not to say they do the work for them,but give the background information
and provide a case to do that.
That's like one thing, but alsolooking at the species that are, have
been listed and making sure that thegovernment has everything that they
need, all the tools in the right placeand published at the same time, and
making sure that it's all done, that'srequired under that law, uh, takes a lot.
(31:19):
Of, of effort and it, and ittakes a lot of of time to engage
with, with the government, uh,entities who are in charge of that.
Um, like how, like I know Oceania,you guys are, you guys are big in
the us We have, we have, uh, uh,an affiliate I guess, or, uh, an
Oceania Canada here in, in, in Canada.
(31:40):
And I know they're not a largeorganization, but they get a,
like in terms of staff members,but they get a lot done.
Oceania in the us I know it'slike the, the, the, the main like
headquarters in the, like it's whereit began and, and so, so forth.
How big is your staff to be able tolook at all these different aspects?
You guys must be putting in a tonof work, and I know it's not like a
(32:01):
huge staff, that's why I'm asking.
Yeah.
Well, I would hear on the West coast,our Pacific team, which I'm a part of,
right, is just, uh, about 10 people.
So we are, we are quite small andmighty for a organization that works in.
Four states at two regionalfishery management councils at the
federal level weighs in on federallegislation, state legislatures.
(32:23):
So it is quite a lot a big body ofwork for just a, a small team out here.
Yeah.
Um, and similarly on the east coast,we have teams that work on various
different issues, but you would be,you would be shocked that, uh, the
amount of work that everyone's ableto get done with the teams we have.
Yeah.
Um, and to your point,we, we are very lucky.
I work with, with several scientists.
(32:44):
Um, we have a science team as well, right.
But on our Pacific team, wehave several scientists who are
just invaluable to building.
Any case that I might bring is gonnahave to have that scientific backing.
Anything we're petitioning thegovernment for, we're gonna have
to have that science backing.
And that is mm-hmm.
That is required by the EndangeredSpecies Act and is one of the most
(33:04):
important pieces is that thesethings must be based on the best.
Science available.
Yeah.
And that's, that's a reallyimportant thing and, and that
we can uphold in court as well.
Yeah, uh, definitely.
And I, I just wanted to shout thatout because it, it is something that
I, I don't think people realize.
I think they see the name, youknow, like the Oceania is the
Conservation Internationals,and they see it's a big name.
(33:26):
They do a lot of stuff.
It's not always like the massivebuildings where, you know, they have
hundreds of people that are working,like you said, 10 people that are looking
over four states, two, you know, uh,fishing, regional councils and so forth.
And you're just like.
Wow.
Like that's a, that's a lot of work.
I, I give kudos to, to everybody there.
But it's also the partnershipsthat you guys make as well, right?
Like you have scientists on staff,but you also have partnerships with
(33:47):
other scientists, with other nonprofitorganizations where you make coalitions.
And how important is that, thosetypes of relationships to the work
that you all do to get, you know,the same solu to the same solution?
It's invaluable.
Our working with otherNGOs, with industry.
(34:08):
With, um, decision makers, we,we, it's invaluable to have that
Other scientists, scientists at theagencies, you know, we rely a lot on.
On external partners as well and right.
The more of us there are,the stronger we are too.
So, and the ability to work with industryon some issues and find a solution,
(34:30):
be creative and find a solution thatworks for everybody, um, is, is really
invaluable to be able to do that andtry to bring together as many people as
we can when we're forming coalitions.
Bring together as many groups thathave shared values and, and shared, um.
And, and have a shared vision for how wemight move forward on a specific issue.
(34:51):
Absolutely.
You mentioned industry, uh, obviouslya very important part to conservation.
A lot of industry has been blamed for,you know, some of the problems that
we've seen, but they also play, uh, anintegral role in the conservation because
they're the ones who are out there.
You know, we talk about fishing,shipping, tourism, to just name three.
Um, especially these days, you're onthe west coast, you know, the West
(35:13):
coast is being open even more now thatthe Northwest passage is is opening up.
We're seeing a lot moreshipping going forth.
I know in Canada.
There are specific laws enacted tomanage a lot of the shipping that
happens, even fishing and and so forth.
Um, how does like the EndangeredSpecies Act related, related
decisions impact those industries?
(35:34):
And then how do you work with, withthose industries in order to mitigate
those impacts and, and really fast trackthe, the recovery and the conservation
of those species while balancing,you know, the sort of the, the.
The, the worries or the concernsof that, of that industry to make
sure that they can still profitand they can still sustainably
(35:54):
fish and, and, and do their work.
Um, I think the fishing industry is agreat example and partner, especially
in the marine conservation world.
Um, fishing entanglement and fishinggear is one of the primary threats
to large whales, um, to like thePacific Leatherback sea turtle.
We know that that's a occurring andwe have seen real efforts by the
(36:16):
fishing industry in, in many fisheries.
To modify their gear and to workwith, uh, scientists and researchers
to try to figure out how to reducetheir take of endangered species.
Um, one great example off ofthe Oregon coast is the, um,
pink shrimp fishery, which wascatching a lot of endangered econ.
(36:36):
And they worked with researchersand realized if they, um, put
lights on their nets, they reducedtheir econ catch to almost nothing.
I mean, it was like, it was phenomenal.
Wow.
The results.
So a really simple change that led toa really great conservation outcome for
the econ, worked for the fishery andmade pink shrimp much more sustainable.
(36:58):
Um, that's amazing.
And similarly, um, in with the Green Seaturtle off the Atlantic Coast in Florida.
You had actually both, uh, agencies,the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the
National Marine Fishery Service workingon conservation, um, of that species.
Fish and wildlife service on the beaches,helping, uh, prevent development on
(37:20):
nesting beaches or mitigating for thatand ensuring that we could bring back
the, that important habitat for nesting.
Mm-hmm.
And in the ocean you had thefishery service working with the
shrimp fishery to try to reducetheir take of green sea turtles.
And, you know, with pretty fabulousresults, they were able to up list two
of the populations in the Atlantic,including the one off the Florida coast.
(37:43):
Um, and I believe the increasewas something like almost no nests
being seen in Florida to over200,000 nests in recent counts.
So really important by workingwith industry and identifying the
problems for a species, we can,yeah, we can work on the solutions
and try to be creative, um, in thefishing industry with modifying gear.
(38:04):
Another great example as I mentioned,is rope list that is being tested
off both the east and west coastright now and in Canada to try
to get less entanglement, um, forthose large whales in pot fisheries.
It, these conservation stories, thesesuccess stories are just phenomenal.
Like to see, as you mentioned, the greensea turtle increase in nests going from
(38:25):
like almost zero to over 200 nests.
Like, you know, across the, the,the southeast, uh, coastline
is absolutely phenomenal.
Uh, we've seen other conservation stories.
The humpback whale on the west coast hashad a significant increase in population
over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years.
And I, and I feel like it's, it'sbecause of this legislation when
(38:45):
they're, when you're put on theEndangered Species Act, you, you
have to put in these recovery plans.
It forces governments, it forcesorganizations, and it, and it triggers.
Money and attention to those specific,you know, species in order to get
them off the list wherever they are.
I mean, I think, you know, one thing wehaven't really dove into, but we, I can
(39:06):
dive into in the intro is the, the levelof, you know, like you're looking at near
extinction, um, you know, you're lookingat, uh, you're looking at, um, endangered,
vulnerable, you know, least concern.
These are all different.
Types of, of settings on the list,let's just say, and, and it's
like the scale, the closer you areto extinction, the worse it is.
But if you're like leastvulnerable, you know, something
(39:28):
like, oh yeah, or least concerned.
We're not totally concerned, but we'rewatching, you know, we're watching
the species because there's, thereseems to be a trend here and, and, and
we need to watch, and you mentionedthe green sea sea turtle getting up
listed twice, meaning that it's, youknow, it's getting less and less, uh,
towards extinction and more and moretowards like, uh, getting off the list.
Um, you know, it's, it'sinteresting when we talk about.
(39:50):
This up, you know, up listing andthen even getting off the list.
It takes a lot to take an animal offthe list, a species off the list because
there's so much protection in there.
We wanna make sure that it's good to go.
Um, do you find, have you ever hadto battle or go to litigation, I
shouldn't say battle, go to litigation?
Uh, when, for a species that were a,maybe a government entity or someone
(40:14):
else wants to take a species offlist 'cause they think it's doing
well, just so that they can get.
Something, something done, you know,from a development aspect, have you
ever had to do that with Oceania orhear of anybody having to do that?
Yeah.
I personally have not had to, uh, fightover delisting, but there have, have
been moves to delist many species.
(40:34):
I think wolves is a primary example.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there have also been effortsto overrule specific species
listing through Congress.
So to get an actualamendment for a species.
Um, one of the most famous is oneof the first, which was really the
snail darter, which was holding upthe Teleco Dam, um, that the Tennessee
Valley Authority was building.
(40:55):
And that case went out all theway up to the Supreme Court.
Um, and then Congress like passed a, abill to allow the dam to be built and
they actually moved the snail darterout of the river 'cause it was gonna be
flooded, um, and to other, other areas.
I ended up finding the species andmore and more rivers after that.
Um, but you know, there have beenattempts to sort of skirt around the
(41:17):
requirements of listing or to get species,uh, attempts to get species delisted.
Yeah.
And you can petition theagency to delist a species.
So just as we were talkingabout petitioning the list
and recently I think it was.
I might get the datewrong, but, um mm-hmm.
The snail darter was actually delisted.
Okay.
Um, several years ago now.
And that was petitioned by, um, youknow, some of the original people
(41:40):
who had got the species listed.
Okay.
And so it took a long time, but that snaildarter came back and they were able to
actually petition a delist, the species.
So yeah, we, it can go bothways, but um, yeah, delisting is.
Something that it is a big decision.
And just as with listing, we'relooking at the whole species.
(42:01):
So sometimes it might feellike a species is increasing,
shouldn't it be off the list?
But there it might be that the threats arestill so severe or their habitat is still
too degraded that we are, we are concernedthat that species not going to recover.
And so that's again thatholistic look at the species.
So it might feel likesometimes we should be.
(42:22):
You know, moving towards delistingand the agency's required to
review those every five years.
Yeah.
Um, and even after delisting, theyhave to continue to monitor that
species for, for five years after.
So we really do wanna make sure we'remaking the right decisions here and.
With about a third of the biodiversityin the us uh, estimated to be at, you
(42:43):
know, at threat right now at risk.
I think we're, you know, ifanything, we're going to be seeing
more listings of species, youknow, and we need more resources
for our agencies to be doing that.
More biologists, more scientists,to be gathering the data, to be
writing the recovery plans forthese species and to make sure that
(43:04):
we're staying on top of that realbiodiversity loss that we're seeing.
Uh, so important.
I mean, we've, we've talked about, youknow, why the Endangered Species Act is
in place and how important what, whatrole and what an important role it plays.
It just goes to show with that darteryou mentioned of, of, you know,
like somebody could have just said,we're not gonna move this species.
We're just gonna build the dam.
(43:25):
If it wasn't on the list, and thatspecies would've, could've been gone, but
they had, they were forced to move it.
And all of a sudden it, it does well,uh, in other, in other river systems.
And it, and it and it, uh, and it doesn'teven so, so well that it can be delisted.
Having these types of laws in thistype of legislation plays such
an important role in the recovery'cause it forces us to pay attention.
(43:47):
It forces to slow down any kind ofdevelopment that might affect that
population or that species, whereverit is, whether it's oceans, rivers,
lakes, wherever, or even on the ground.
And it's such an importantaspect of it and it's why that.
You know, delisting is such ahard thing to do 'cause we're
very cautious when we do it.
Uh, and, and you know, we, we makesure that governments play their
(44:07):
role and do what they need to do.
And, you know, obviously we're,we're recording this in a time
where government resources are,are very thin right now on purpose.
Uh, and it's a, it's trying to allowfossil fuels and other types of natural
resource development to happen faster.
And this is why they do it.
And we need to, um, do asmuch as we can to ensure that.
(44:30):
Um, organizations like Oceania Pay canpay attention and to say, Hey, you know,
hold the governments accountable, makingsure they're working with government
as an industry to say, we can stilldo this, and, and it still needs to
be done because it's part of our laws.
One thing we haven't talked about.
Is your constituency with, with Oceania.
The people, the people whoare listening to this episode,
uh, listen to this podcast.
(44:51):
They always want to get involved.
They always want to beable to do something.
And I know this is somethingthat is, is difficult for
people to completely relate to.
You know, when we talk about issues likeplastic pollution, we can probably play
more of a. Of a short, shorter term roleby reducing our own single use plastics
in our household and our daily lives.
But working with, you know, and tryingto, uh, support work with Endangered
(45:13):
Species Act is, is difficult for peopleto maybe wrap their head around because
it's that such a, a different, it's kindof like disconnected from our daily lives.
How would you suggest, Tara, thatwe could like, uh, the just people,
whether they live in the US or theylive outside the US in their own
countries, how can they play a role in.
Uh, helping out organizationslike yourselves or even just in
(45:35):
individually being able to holdgovernments accountable to, to the ESA?
Well, one great thing about the ESAis that it has a citizen provision.
So if you ever feel that the law is beingviolated, you can actually bring, uh,
litigation even against the government ifyou feel that the ESA is being violated.
(45:55):
Now, that's an extreme step, but thatis of course one of the great things
that we love about the ESA as lawyers.
Um, but also contactyour elected officials.
Let them know why youcare about these species.
You know, what they mean to you.
The southern residents off our coast,the southern resident orcas off our
coast here, have such deep culturalsignificance in the Pacific Northwest.
(46:16):
Legislators need to hear about that.
You know, Congress works forus here in the United States.
We, we elect them to work for us, and theyneed to hear that you care about this.
Mm-hmm.
There are.
Continued threats to theEndangered Species Act.
We have seen many different effortsto weaken the regulation, weaken
the law, um, you know, business andindustry wants to push these through
(46:36):
so that they don't have to change ormodify or halt their developments.
We've seen those sort of pushes inCongress and we need our constituency,
this constituency to be speaking upand make sure Congress hears from
you from the other side to say no.
Species have value andthey add to our economy.
Yeah.
I think we have a, you know, wehave a billion dollar whale watching
(46:58):
tourism industry in this country.
That is nothing to, you know, that's,that's a really important stat and a
very important driver of our economy.
So, um, just making sure that theyhear from you and they hear that
other side of the economic argumenton, you know, why this matters,
um, and why it's really part of ourcultural heritage here as Americans.
I love that.
(47:18):
Thank you so much, Tara.
This has been a pleasureto have you on the podcast.
It's such a, uh, you play such animportant role in, in working with Oceania
and helping us not only in, in terms ofthe courts when you need to, when you
need to battle, but also, you know, makingsure that you know, everybody is following
the law, the right law, the EndangeredSpecies Act, and other laws that.
Are enacted in the US and we reallyappreciate the, the hard work that
(47:39):
you and your fellow, uh, colleaguesat, at Oceania do each and every day.
So thank you so much for coming onthe podcast and, and letting us know.
We'd love to invite you backand to talk more about what you
do in, in different aspects.
Maybe, uh, aside from the, theEndangered Species Act and talk about
plastics next time, um, like I didwith your colleague Christie Levitt.
So it'd be a lot of fun to tohave you back on, and thank you
so much for, for being here.
(48:01):
Thank you for having us andfor anyone that wants to learn
more, please go to oceania.org.
We have tons of ways to get involved.
Take action.
Join our our Wavemaker list.
We'd love to have you in this movement.
That's awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Tara, for joining uson today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
(48:21):
It was great to be able to hearabout all the success that Ocean
has had and all of the work that isdone to put into protecting specific
species that are on the endangeredspecies list, and even trying to get
some that need to be on that list.
And I just think it's phenomenal.
I think the conservation successstories that have come from endangered
species, not only in the US but allover the world, is really, really.
(48:42):
Important to acknowledge thatthis is a tool that works.
These tools bring back speciesif they are done properly, and
organizations like Oceana ensure thatthe government is held accountable
for that recovery process to happen.
Something in that I always value withthe Endangered Species Act, whether
it's in US, Canada, or elsewhere.
Is that the recovery documents or therecovery process that have to be done
(49:06):
for every species, these recoverydocuments are extremely important to
make sure that these species have aplan and can come back from that plan.
It's really, really important tohave that, and it's really great to
see Oceano hold in the governmentto account by that, by putting in
petitions to ensure that they havethese produced, and I think it's great.
Oceania does this all over theworld, not just in the us, but
(49:26):
we're focusing on the US today.
But if you're in a country thathas Oceania I, I highly recommend
that you look up their site.
If you go to the main site, oceania.org,you can probably get to their affiliates.
It's just amazing.
A lot of times if it's, it's ina specific country, you could put
Oceania in the country like Oceania,Canada and Google, and it'll come up.
Or if you're in Europe, you can doOceania Europe and it'll come up as well.
(49:47):
Oceania UK I think is a separateone now, but it's really great to
see Oceania do such great work.
Tara, I wanna thank youso much for joining us.
You were great to have on, lookingforward to having you back on to talk
more about litigation, more about avoidinglitigation to get these projects done
and help the government, you know, beheld accountable and ensure that these
species are protected, whether it's theEndangered Species Act or other laws
(50:09):
like, you know, looking after marineprotection from marine pollution.
So.
Always wonderful to have somebodyfrom Ocean and especially Tara.
It was great meeting and greatintroducing to my audience.
I can't wait for you to come back.
If you're listening to this or you'rewatching this on YouTube, you have
any questions, I would love to hearfrom you or you have any comments or
anything like that, please let me know.
You can get access to me by DMingme on Instagram at How to Protect
(50:31):
the Ocean, or you can just leavea comment in the YouTube comment.
Or you can go to speakup for blue.com/contact.
That's it.
Speak up for blue.com/contact.
Fill the form, goes right tomy personal email and try and
answer them as soon as possible.
And again, I wanna thank you so muchfor joining me on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin fromthe true nor strong and free.
(50:52):
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
A beach goer sees a humpback whale breachoff the coast, unaware it's a species.
Once on the brink beneath the surface,sea turtles struggled to survive
fishing nets and warming oceans.
Tara Brock, an environmental lawyerwith Oceania, works behind the
scenes to defend these species.
The Endangered Species Act is a decadesold, but still powerful law that gives
(00:21):
threatened species a fighting chance.
Legal decisions influence whetherwhales, dodge ship strikes or
sea turtles escape by cash.
ESA enforcement has led to real changelike gear modifications that saved.
Thousands of sea turtles.
Some protections are under attack.
Loopholes are wideningand enforcement is uneven.
Oceania uses litigation science and publicpressure to push for accountability.
(00:46):
Listeners can support policy changes,urge better industry practices, and
speak out for species without a voice.
Every hatchling that makesit to the sea and every whale
breaching free is a reminder thatthe law can work if we use it.
We're gonna be talking about theEndangered Species Act and how
important it is to preserving thisspecific species on this episode of
(01:07):
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to another exciting episodeof the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and thisis the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the ocean, howyou could speak up for the ocean,
and what you could do to live fora better ocean by taking action.
And on today's episode, we'regonna be speaking to Tara Brock.
(01:27):
She is an environmental lawyer forOceania, and she is here to talk
about the Endangered Species Actand how it can be used as a tool to
protect species that are a littlebit more vulnerable than we think.
And the conservation story is a successfulconservation story that have come.
From enacting this law and following thislaw, it's going to be a great episode.
(01:49):
I can't wait for you to listen, but beforewe do, I wanted to talk to you about
something that's really important tome and I think really important to you.
Do you want to learn how toconserve the ocean better?
Do you want to protect it?
This is something that's really beenof interest for me for a long time.
Something to go beyond just thispodcast and to help guide you to,
(02:10):
you know, live for a better ocean.
I want you to join The Undertow.
It's a new company that I'm theco-founder of with two amazing
women, Serena and Amanda.
We are starting a digital app.
We are creating it.
We are in the process of creating it,and we're almost there to launch it.
We want you to be a part of it.
We want you to learn about wave makerswho are really, you know, breaking
ceilings and looking to protect theocean a little bit more, may not
(02:33):
have the support all the time there.
And we provide an infrastructure inthere for you to be able to not only
listen to their mission, but helpthem in getting closer to protecting
the ocean as well as yourself.
So it's a lot of fun.
We want you to join.
All you have to do is go to speakup for blue.com/join the undertow.
That's speak up for blue.com/jointhe undertow, all one word, and
(02:54):
get on the waiting list to get in.
We're almost ready to launch that app.
Let's get into the interview with TaraBrock, environmental lawyer for Oceana.
I can't wait for you to listen.
Here's the interview.
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
Hey Tara, welcome to the Howto Protect the Ocean Podcast.
Are you ready to talk aboutthe Endangered Species Act?
Yes, I am excited to talk aboutthe Endangered Species Act and its
(03:17):
importance for conserving species.
It's funny, you know, when whenwe talk about getting excited for
something, it's not often that weget excited to talk about a piece of
legislation that's really, you know,that's obviously really important.
We're getting into why it's soimportant, but it's something, it's
something that always makes me laugh.
It's like we're gonna talkabout like legislation.
Everybody's like, yay, because it's.
You know, this is something, endangeredSpecies Act is something that is all,
(03:39):
like every country seems to have one.
Like in Canada, we have one where I'mfrom, and then obviously the US has one
federally, and then we also have them,you know, in states and in provinces.
They play a very, you know,important role in conservation.
But we don't really talk a lotabout them, but we, we hear about.
The, you know, this, this type oflegislation, sometimes in a good
way, but oftentimes in a bad way, uh,because of the types of animals that
(04:03):
are there and the level of, of, I guess,where they are in terms of extinction
or protection and, and what, and howmuch information they need or how
much protection they actually need.
So it's, it's a very importantlegislation, but I always
just find it funny how.
We get excited to talk about legislation,but you are a lawyer and so this is
what you like to talk about and so doI, and so this is gonna be a lot of fun.
(04:24):
But before we get into talking aboutthe Endangered Species Act, Tara,
let's get to know you a little bit.
Why don't you to let the audienceknow who you are and what you do.
Well, yeah, thanks again for having me.
Definitely get excited intalking about conservation laws.
So this is, I'm excited to be here.
Um, my name's Tara Brock.
I am Pacific Legal Directorand Senior counsel at Oceana.
(04:46):
So my job entails working on allmanner of ocean conservation issues
off the West coast in Alaska.
We work on responsible fisheriesmanagement, reducing plastic pollution
in the ocean conserving species, um, andreally just making sure that the oceans
remain a really healthy place becauseof their importance to life on earth.
(05:08):
It is a tall order, you know, to,to protect the oceans, especially
from the, from, from the courtsor from a legislative perspective
and a law and a law perspective.
Uh, how did this all come aboutin terms of becoming a lawyer?
When did you start to think, thisis what I want to do, you know,
when I, when I grow up and, and didyou always think that this is where
(05:30):
you're gonna end up in environmentallaw and protecting the ocean?
Oh, that's a great question.
I, I definitely do not have alinear path, I think, to this work.
I was actually an art major in undergrad.
And I worked with a lotof different materials.
I liked collecting materials.
I worked with a lot of trash, frankly, tomake my pieces interesting, and that led
(05:53):
me to working with our local recyclingfacility and collecting a lot of the
plastics from there, and learning thatplastic bottle caps weren't recycled at
the time, and just seeing the mountains ofwaste that was coming into that facility.
Some that was getting recycled, somethat wasn't, and researching all of that.
And it was right at the time thatCaptain Charles Moore with the Alita
(06:17):
Foundation was discovering the GreatPacific Gyre, which perhaps some of
your listeners have heard about, buta floating mass of plastics out in the
ocean, most of them tiny particles.
And so that was just cominginto the public's forefront.
And so my art.
Started to sort of reflect some ofthat and become more of education
about what was going on in ouroceans and environment and how our
(06:40):
waste was contributing to that.
And so I picked up an environmentalminor while I was at school,
and the rest is history.
I got hooked in environmental advocacyworking with Environment Michigan.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then found my way out tothe West coast for law school at
Lewis and Clark, one of the bestenvironmental law schools in the country.
And.
(07:01):
Once I saw the Oregon coast,I was definitely hooked on, on
helping, protect and do ocean law.
It is absolutely, um,magnificent out here.
The West coast really is beautiful.
It well, absolutely it is.
That's my, my non-linear pathtowards, uh, becoming a lawyer and,
uh, diving into ocean conservation.
I, I mean, I love that, you know, a lotof the, something that I've discovered,
(07:24):
'cause I ask all my guests, you know,how did they get to where they got?
And one of the things that I'verealized fairly quickly is that.
It's never a linear path,you know, very rarely.
You know, sometimes it is, but veryrarely is, is it a linear path of
where they got, like where theystarted to where they wanted to go,
and then they got there that way.
And just a straight, straight line.
It's always meandering and, andI feel like that is part of how
(07:46):
they got to where they go is theexperiences that they pick up.
For you, Tara, it sounds like it was, youknow, as you were, as you were, you know,
making these pieces out of, out of trash.
And you start to realize in therecycling industry, it's not what it is.
It was advertised as a lot ofthings weren't getting recycled.
And then you start to realize,well, hold on a second here.
What, what can I do?
(08:07):
Uh, when you mentioned that you took, youpicked up, uh, an environmental minor.
Was that like an environmental scienceminor or was it more, uh, like, like in
the advocacy, uh, public affairs domain?
How, how did that work?
Uh, that's a great question because itwas actually called a Global change minor,
which was really new program at the time,at the University of Michigan, and it was
(08:32):
through the School of Natural Resources.
But it focused both on howthe earth changes naturally.
Mm-hmm.
And how humans are impacting that.
So we studied population demographics,but also natural processes.
But it wasn't strictly like anenvironmental science, um, uh, minor.
It was definitely involved a lot biggerpicture on how the earth was changing
(08:56):
and how humans were impacting that.
And so I feel very lucky that Iwas able to, to partake in that.
I think it was only the first or secondyear they were offering it at the time.
Yeah.
Um, and really cool, uh, programto be able to, I can imagine.
I mean that, I feel like everybodyshould have to go through a program like
that just to really fully understandwhat, you know, what, how, what
(09:17):
influence we have on the planet andhow we're, we're changing the planet.
That obviously kickstarted aninteresting career for you, you
know, in, in environmental advocacy.
When you get outta school, whatmakes, like, where did you head first?
Like, what makes you go from school anddoing like, you know, obviously fine arts,
which you could have gone into the, the,the art direct, like the direction of
(09:38):
art with, you know, ocean conservation orconservation in general, or you know, you
went the environmental advocacy route.
What was like your first step and didyou really fully understand where you
wanted to go after that at that point?
Well, that's, uh, you know,I don't know that I fully
understood where I wanted to go.
I graduated law school in 2011,which was not the best time
(10:02):
to graduate from law school.
Right.
Jobs were scarce.
Yep.
And so I was applying everywhere.
I did not have a job when I came.
Outta law school, but duringlaw school I had volunteered
with a lot of organizationsincluding Surf Rider Foundation.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which works to protectoceans, waves, and beaches.
Focus a lot on recreational users.
(10:23):
And it was such a great experienceand it's really where I feel like
I, I cut my teeth and organizing andadvocacy and how people and people's
voices can be used to change policyand change impact on the ground.
And so I kept volunteering.
I kept, uh, putting myselfout there and showing up.
(10:44):
I worked for a strategic consulting firmfor a while, helping other nonprofits
be successful in their campaigns.
And over time, I, um, ended upworking at the Pew Charitable Trust
and working on fisheries, uh, policy.
And so that's sort of the, the not linear,again, path that I came out of law school.
(11:05):
So it was, um.
It was a great experience, honestly.
Yeah.
Having and volunteering, you know,I think that that's a great way to
get involved and to learn things,um, that you're not an expert in.
I don't have a marine biology degree.
I don't, um, you know,have that background.
But learning by doing and learning bylistening to others was just so valuable.
(11:27):
Not only having the legal sideof things from my education,
but really learning that.
Advocacy toolkit from, from Surf Riderand others, um, and how to run campaigns.
Absolutely.
I mean, you seem to have received alot of experience, uh, over a wide
variety of, of, of types of campaigns,not only from a notion perspective,
(11:48):
but a recreational perspective.
And then working with, you know, a, aplethora of nonprofit organizations,
I'm sure you know, across thegambit of, of running campaigns.
Let me ask you this because Ifind this is always interesting.
You come from a very creativebackground doing a degree in fine arts.
How has that helped you in adapting tothe, the different types of campaigns and
(12:13):
the different types of what seems to besubject matters that come up and topics
that come up that you are able to cover?
Do you find that having thatcreative background allows you that.
That wiggle room or that that spaceto, to be able to think out of the
box and, and bring that to the table.
Uh, when you run these types of campaigns.
Absolutely.
I always say that having a creativemindset, being open-minded and thinking
(12:38):
really out of the box sometimes isthe best way to approach something.
You know, we, we can be very linear inour goals and our policy objectives,
and without thinking about maybewho else should be at the table.
Or what other constituencymight care about this?
And really thinking about othertactics and frankly, using art
(12:59):
in, in a way to educate people.
Um, there's a great organizationcalled Wash to Shore.
Mm-hmm.
Here in Oregon.
Based here in Oregon that makes theseamazing sculptures out of marine debris
or trash that they find on the beach.
And they're gorgeous.
I mean, and you just don'teven realize that that is all
stuff collected from the ocean.
Such a good adv adv advocacy toolto educate the public about this
(13:23):
problem of plastics in the oceanand, and connecting for people,
making that connection for people.
So absolutely being creativeand having that creative mindset
is so beneficial to this work.
And thinking creatively about how we mightframe a policy or even draft a policy to
get the outcome we want, um, while stillconsidering other, you know, other needs.
(13:45):
And so I definitely thinkit's, uh, it's helpful.
I can imagine.
I you, when you mentioned the, the, theart of from trash, it, it reminded me
at out Toronto Zoo here, uh, there wasa display and I, I feel like was the
soro may have built the, the displays,but it was this massive polar bear,
like lifesize polar bear made of trash.
(14:05):
And when you look at it,you, you were in awe.
You're like, wow, this is really cool.
Like this is huge and itlooks like a polar bear.
Uh, you know, it's got the samekind of features, and then as you
get closer and closer you realizethese are everyday trash materials.
That, and, and what we think isrecycled materials that we expect.
Gets recycled or gets disposed ofappropriately, but are found in the
ocean or are found in our landscapes.
(14:27):
And you realize like, oh my gosh, likeI use a lot of these materials and
this is what this animal's made of.
And you're like, this is a lot ofmaterial to make this massive, you
know, animal like lifesize animal.
And it, and it, it makes youthink, you know, and in terms
of that, and I find that.
Art plays such an important rolein that, in, uh, in conservation.
I don't think we realize it when we, whenwe see it, but if you sit back and think
(14:49):
about it, it's, it's really interesting.
Um, and so when you, when you getto Oceania, um, you know, you get to
it in, I think it was 2019 when you,when you, when you started there.
Um.
What was your thinking like?
What did you come in, like?
You come in as a, as a council forthe Pacific region, for Oceania.
Um, you know, obviously Oceania is a,is a great organization covering a,
(15:10):
a lot of different, as you mentioned,a lot of different topics, plastic
pollution, fisheries, and so forth.
What, uh, what was like your, yourfirst projects that you were working
on when you were working with Oceana?
Well, my first, I think 30 dayson the job, we ended up filing,
uh, litigation, so, okay.
(15:31):
Over anchovy, so, okay.
It was, um, almost immediate.
I believe I, I was, uh, having to, tochange my brain into more of a real
lawyer focus and file litigation overthe management of anchovy off our coast.
And so.
That was one of the firstthings I did on the job.
It was, um, but it was great to beable to dig in and, uh, my previous
(15:56):
work had not, uh, required mereally to use my to do litigation.
We did.
That wasn't a tool that myprevious jobs had utilized.
But Oceania, it's one ofthe tools in the toolbox.
We, of course, interesting usecommunications and other and other
means to achieve our objectives, butwhen needed, Oceania also takes the
step of going to court and enforcingour environmental laws like the
(16:19):
Endangered Species Act when we needto, and when we feel that there
has been a violation of the law.
So yeah, really, really great tostep right into that role and be able
to use my, my law degree for, forthose purposes on a campaign that
Oceania had been working on for.
For many years before that.
That's really interesting.
I, I always find it interesting withlike a, an organization like Oceano,
(16:41):
the, the amazing work that it's ableto do, uh, across like science policy,
advocacy, uh, conservation and law.
I find a lot of organizations, theydon't talk a lot like enough about
the law, uh, that the like, like thelitigation matters that they discuss.
I almost feel like it's a story withinitself in terms of all the different
(17:02):
tactics that you're able to use using.
Litigation and we don'thear about it enough.
We hear about the science and wehear sometimes about the policy
that's, that's made or the wins orsometimes the shortcomings, but we
never really hear about the the law.
And it's so funny 'cause I think whenpeople think about lawyers, they think
about suits and they think about corporatelaw and they think about money being
made and, and businesses and so forth.
(17:23):
I almost find there needs to be likea Suits environment type of of show.
So we can start to see.
Some of the things that you guys,that everybody goes through when
it comes to law, how, what'sthe challenge as a lawyer, as an
environmental lawyer that you face,like working with an organization
like Ocean N that has a lot of power.
It has a lot of lobby power, it has a,you know, it has a big constituency.
(17:45):
Um, when you come to court, what's the,what are the, some of the challenges that
you guys face as a team of, of lawyers?
Well, we're, we come to court prepared.
We don't bring litigation unlesswe think we have a very good case.
And, um, so I think the best thingOceania does is that we don't just
(18:07):
litigate, we also campaign, we do thescience, we do the advocacy, we build up
the record so that when we're in court,we know that it's based on science,
um, and that we have a good case.
There.
So that's one of the thingsthat Oceania just does so well.
We use all the tools in the toolbox.
We get, we get the public engagement,we use communications to make sure
(18:29):
we're communicating to the public anddecision makers about what's going on.
And litigation is often sort ofthe last, the last resort, right?
We're trying to work within, um,other realms with decision makers.
And sometimes at the end of the day.
There has been a violation oflaw that we need to go enforce.
And so that's one thing Oceania doesreally well is has the whole, the whole
(18:51):
picture when it comes to advocacy, andI think that's like a, that's goes,
it speaks to the team that you have.
At Oceania and, and the differentdepartments that you have and how well
you all work together to provide thatinformation if you need to go to court
and, and, and stop something fromhappening, like you said, it's the last,
sort of last move that you need to make.
If a, if a law has been, uh,you know, disregarded or not,
(19:13):
or not followed properly, uh,which I think is interesting.
Speaking of laws, let's talk abouta piece of legislation that's really
important, the Endangered Species Act.
Can you discuss, discuss likewhat the Endangered Species Act
is and, and how it protects?
Specific animals that make the list?
Sure.
The, the Endangered Species Act, Imean, the primary goal is to protect
(19:34):
and conserve, threatened and endangeredspecies and also the areas and
habitats that they need to, to surviveand avoid extinction and recover.
So those, that's really the maingoal of the Endangered Species
Act and to identify those species.
Um, there's, there's definitions of whatit means to be endangered or threatened.
Mm-hmm.
(19:54):
Endangered means that they are, youknow, threatened with extinction
within, uh, the near future.
And if, and threatened isthat they're likely to be.
Um, extinct within the foreseeable future.
So once we've identified those species,once, uh, the relevant agency, it's either
(20:15):
the Fish and Wildlife Service or theNational Marine Fishery Service, depending
on what species you're looking at.
Um, but they will look at the science,the, the, the status of the threats to
that species, the population status,um, the population growth or decline.
And, and the habitat, the availabilityof the quality and quantity of
(20:35):
the habitat for that species.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and determine if it'swarranted for listing.
And once they are listed, a whole hostof amazing protections come into place.
You have the requirement todesignate critical habitat.
You have a prohibition on what is calledtake of species, which is a technical
definition, but it pretty much means,you know, anything that might harm
(20:59):
harass, you can't hunt any of those,and it's pretty broad definition of
what it means to take a species and youcan't even attempt to do those things.
That is also prohibited.
So you get this very broad,uh, protections right away
when a species is listed.
And it also requires thedevelopment of recovery plans.
So putting together that roadmap Yes.
(21:20):
Looking holistically at the species,what does it need to come back
from the brink of extinction?
And so that's sort of the, in the nutshellof, uh, yeah, what the Endangered Species
Act does when looking at specific species.
Uh, recovery plans are suchan important part of that act.
You know, something that as a scientist,I always, I always acknowledge because,
you know, with, you could put something,an animal on a list and say, Hey, we,
(21:43):
we can't do anything, you know, furtherto, you know, decrease this population
size or, or harm this animal orharass this animal in any kind of way.
Whether we mean to or not.
We have to really, youknow, focus on this.
Um, but.
Yeah, that doesn'tnecessarily help them recover.
It could stop the harm and it canstop, maybe a decrease or slow down, a
(22:03):
decrease, but there's always somethingthere that will harm the animal,
especially with all the cumulativeimpacts that we see with animals.
Not just one thing.
One thing might be accelerating thedecrease, but it's not only just just
one thing, and to have a recoveryplan in place to identify all these
different effects, to identify allthese different influences to identify.
If we stop this, what do we need to do?
(22:24):
Is there a repopulation aspect to it?
Is it just a protection?
Is it like protecting specific habitat?
What habitat to protect?
And I always find it interesting because.
Uh, when governments come in and theywant to develop natural resources, or
they want to develop a piece of landor a piece of water, and they, you
know, the Endangered Species Act sortof, you know, quote unquote slows them
(22:48):
down as they like to say, uh, which isway I always find ironic because that's
the whole point, is to not jump intodecisions and, and look at what's there.
Uh, you know.
The recovery plan is there to stopthose efforts from happening and,
and slow down those efforts fromhappening so that these animals can
be protected and these habitats canbe protected, not just the animals.
(23:08):
And I think we, we know thatyou mentioned that too, it's
looking at habitat availability,food availability, and so forth.
It's such an important aspect to that whenit comes to the Endangered Speech Act.
From a legal aspect, what haveyou found in your experience?
Get like people try to cir circumventthe most when it comes to the act or
(23:29):
just maybe not the most, but just someof the items they try and circumvent
even though it's part of the legislation.
Well, I think the, um.
You know, looking at, uh, any sortof activity that might impact a
species, um, there is going to be anassessment of what needs to be done to
protect that species from that impact.
(23:50):
Yeah.
And I don't know, you know, that we seea whole lot of, um, people necessarily
trying to violate that, but maybeit's skirt, the requirements from.
You know, uh, not wanting, making,making it go faster, making sure
that we see, um, a faster result toget their permit, which might have
mitigation measures in place, right?
Mm-hmm.
(24:11):
That might be, Hey, we, we, you need todo some mitigation work here to ensure
you don't have impact this species.
Maybe it's that you don't fish ina certain area because that is.
That area is important for thisspecies, um, for feeding or breeding
or any other number of reasons.
Um, so I don't know that there's a lotof intentional trying to skirt the act,
(24:31):
but certainly as you said, we hear thatpeople want to move faster and not,
not stand in the way of development.
Um, I think it's important to notethough that, you know, endangered species
and, and species generally biodiversityhas such a large economic impact.
And so it's not just about the, theeconomic impact side of development
(24:52):
and progress in that way, but alsojust the value that we have, um, for
these species, both from an ecotourismperspective and the broader benefit.
If you save one species, that can havecascading effects for a whole ecosystem.
That might not even be, youknow, apparent at the start.
Absolutely.
(25:12):
Can you talk a little bit about, maybean example of something that Oceania
has worked on in the past, uh, inregards to the Endangered Species Act?
Just to give us a little taste of,of what type of work that's been
done, uh, to uphold, you know, the,the Endangered Species Act when it
comes to a, a particular species.
Absolutely.
We do a lot of workwith endangered species.
(25:35):
Um, on the East coast.
We work with North, northAtlantic, right whales, which
are really critically endangered.
They have very low population levelsright now and we have been working to slow
vessels down, um, and getting a vesselspeed rule because that's one of the main
threats to species, as well as workingon getting rope list gear or pop-up
gear in place in the lobster fishery.
(25:57):
So making sure that whalesdon't get entangled in gear,
which is also a major threat.
Mm-hmm.
So those are two regulatorythings we've been trying to work
on to help protect that species.
And out on the West coast outhere, we have worked with,
um, on Southern Resident.
Uh, killer whales, right, both frompetitioning to ensure that critical
habitat was designated for that speciesbecause just because a species is listed,
(26:21):
we don't always see the concurrent listingof critical habitat with that species.
Yeah, sometimes it takesan additional step.
To ensure that that gets designated.
So Ocean has petitioned the agencyto ensure that critical habitat
gets designated for certain species.
Mm-hmm.
And also to make sure prey availability.
So Southern residents are prettyspecific feeders they like.
(26:44):
Salmon, very specific salmon.
So we have worked at the RegionalFishery Management Council to ensure
there's a salmon threshold mm-hmm.
Where salmon, enough salmongets left in the water for
those orcas to eat and survive.
So there's a, there's several differentother examples I could provide as well
where we have worked on, um, right.
Protecting endangered species sort of onthe ground in those ways and getting more
(27:08):
protections in place and using those.
Guideposts of the law to make surethat we're protecting those species and
that they can have a chance to recover.
Yeah, you mentioned somethingthat was really interesting to me.
Petitioning the, likethe government to mm-hmm.
Either put in this, thisconcurrent protections of, you
know, adding critical habitat.
'cause sometimes, like, let's be honest,you know, I've worked in government before
(27:31):
and, and there are sometimes where thereare resources that are allocated based
on, uh, prioritization of the, of thegovernment that's in play at that time.
And so some, some species might getmore, uh, love than, than others.
And sometimes thingsget lost in the mix and.
That when you look at the recovery plansand what needs to be designated and
the, and what you need to follow fromthe law, it doesn't always get done.
(27:52):
Not necessarily to say that it's,you know, that government that's
trying not to put those in.
Sometimes it's just the resourcesare spread too thin and, and
they, and they have to do that.
But, but other times it's, it's nefarious.
Other times they want to keep somethingout because they wanna develop something
and they just slow their role in termsof, of, of trying to get stuff done.
So it, it goes both ways.
Um, but when you petition a, a governmentto do this type of work, can you just
(28:16):
talk a little bit of what that processlooks like, um, from a legal framework?
Sure.
Well, under the Endangered SpeciesAct, anyone can petition the,
a, an agency to list a species.
So at a very.
Basic level of getting a species ontoa list, now you're gonna wanna provide
a lot of scientific backing mm-hmm.
For why you believe that's warranted.
(28:38):
Um, but you can, anyone can petitionthe agencies to list a species.
And so that is a very importanttool when we do see that.
You know, as we, as we know rightnow, agencies are under-resourced and
underfunded, and they don't necessarilyhave the time and resources to go
do a assessment for every species.
(28:58):
But organizations and people working onthe ground might have that information
and be able to petition the agency.
And they will turn around and, and do a 90day finding, saying, is there substantial
information here that we, mm-hmm.
That we think is warranted to move to thenext step, which is a 12 month finding
on whether or not that species shouldbe added to the endangered species list.
(29:20):
So that's one place youcould petition the agency.
Another is petitioning fordesignation of critical habitat.
So a species might be listed, butagain, not have that associated
habitat, which we know is so important.
And which in itself has protectionsagainst, you know, being impacted
by actions of the federalgovernment and private actors.
So really important piece that doesn'talways get designated right away.
(29:45):
And so we have to go to the agencywith proper information saying,
here's the, the science we have onwhere this species uses, what habitat
the species uses, where it's at.
And petition the agency to thendesignate that, which again triggers
additional protections for those areas.
Um, so a couple differentplaces to petition.
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, uh,a couple things that stood out to me in
(30:09):
your answer there, because a, a lot of us,you know, who are not part who, who may
not be in the industry, like, or, or in agroup like Oceana, we might be following,
you know, the emails and things like that.
But it really goes toshow how much the staff.
At, at these nonprofit organizations,these environmental organizations
watch and research what's beingdone at, at every different
(30:33):
level and every different aspect.
The amount of meticulous work thatgoes in to be like, okay, so this,
this species isn't listed, but we'veseen, you know, we've read the science,
we're working with scientists, we'vetalked to scientists, we've built
relationships within the community.
We know this species is decreasing.
Let's examine whether it needs to to belisted and let's do the work and then
(30:54):
present it to the government Almost.
Not to say they do the work for them,but give the background information
and provide a case to do that.
That's like one thing, but alsolooking at the species that are, have
been listed and making sure that thegovernment has everything that they
need, all the tools in the right placeand published at the same time, and
making sure that it's all done, that'srequired under that law, uh, takes a lot.
(31:19):
Of, of effort and it, and ittakes a lot of of time to engage
with, with the government, uh,entities who are in charge of that.
Um, like how, like I know Oceania,you guys are, you guys are big in
the us We have, we have, uh, uh,an affiliate I guess, or, uh, an
Oceania Canada here in, in, in Canada.
(31:40):
And I know they're not a largeorganization, but they get a,
like in terms of staff members,but they get a lot done.
Oceania in the us I know it'slike the, the, the, the main like
headquarters in the, like it's whereit began and, and so, so forth.
How big is your staff to be able tolook at all these different aspects?
You guys must be putting in a tonof work, and I know it's not like a
(32:01):
huge staff, that's why I'm asking.
Yeah.
Well, I would hear on the West coast,our Pacific team, which I'm a part of,
right, is just, uh, about 10 people.
So we are, we are quite small andmighty for a organization that works in.
Four states at two regionalfishery management councils at the
federal level weighs in on federallegislation, state legislatures.
(32:23):
So it is quite a lot a big body ofwork for just a, a small team out here.
Yeah.
Um, and similarly on the east coast,we have teams that work on various
different issues, but you would be,you would be shocked that, uh, the
amount of work that everyone's ableto get done with the teams we have.
Yeah.
Um, and to your point,we, we are very lucky.
I work with, with several scientists.
(32:44):
Um, we have a science team as well, right.
But on our Pacific team, wehave several scientists who are
just invaluable to building.
Any case that I might bring is gonnahave to have that scientific backing.
Anything we're petitioning thegovernment for, we're gonna have
to have that science backing.
And that is mm-hmm.
That is required by the EndangeredSpecies Act and is one of the most
(33:04):
important pieces is that thesethings must be based on the best.
Science available.
Yeah.
And that's, that's a reallyimportant thing and, and that
we can uphold in court as well.
Yeah, uh, definitely.
And I, I just wanted to shout thatout because it, it is something that
I, I don't think people realize.
I think they see the name, youknow, like the Oceania is the
Conservation Internationals,and they see it's a big name.
(33:26):
They do a lot of stuff.
It's not always like the massivebuildings where, you know, they have
hundreds of people that are working,like you said, 10 people that are looking
over four states, two, you know, uh,fishing, regional councils and so forth.
And you're just like.
Wow.
Like that's a, that's a lot of work.
I, I give kudos to, to everybody there.
But it's also the partnershipsthat you guys make as well, right?
Like you have scientists on staff,but you also have partnerships with
(33:47):
other scientists, with other nonprofitorganizations where you make coalitions.
And how important is that, thosetypes of relationships to the work
that you all do to get, you know,the same solu to the same solution?
It's invaluable.
Our working with otherNGOs, with industry.
(34:08):
With, um, decision makers, we,we, it's invaluable to have that
Other scientists, scientists at theagencies, you know, we rely a lot on.
On external partners as well and right.
The more of us there are,the stronger we are too.
So, and the ability to work with industryon some issues and find a solution,
(34:30):
be creative and find a solution thatworks for everybody, um, is, is really
invaluable to be able to do that andtry to bring together as many people as
we can when we're forming coalitions.
Bring together as many groups thathave shared values and, and shared, um.
And, and have a shared vision for how wemight move forward on a specific issue.
(34:51):
Absolutely.
You mentioned industry, uh, obviouslya very important part to conservation.
A lot of industry has been blamed for,you know, some of the problems that
we've seen, but they also play, uh, anintegral role in the conservation because
they're the ones who are out there.
You know, we talk about fishing,shipping, tourism, to just name three.
Um, especially these days, you're onthe west coast, you know, the West
(35:13):
coast is being open even more now thatthe Northwest passage is is opening up.
We're seeing a lot moreshipping going forth.
I know in Canada.
There are specific laws enacted tomanage a lot of the shipping that
happens, even fishing and and so forth.
Um, how does like the EndangeredSpecies Act related, related
decisions impact those industries?
(35:34):
And then how do you work with, withthose industries in order to mitigate
those impacts and, and really fast trackthe, the recovery and the conservation
of those species while balancing,you know, the sort of the, the.
The, the worries or the concernsof that, of that industry to make
sure that they can still profitand they can still sustainably
(35:54):
fish and, and, and do their work.
Um, I think the fishing industry is agreat example and partner, especially
in the marine conservation world.
Um, fishing entanglement and fishinggear is one of the primary threats
to large whales, um, to like thePacific Leatherback sea turtle.
We know that that's a occurring andwe have seen real efforts by the
(36:16):
fishing industry in, in many fisheries.
To modify their gear and to workwith, uh, scientists and researchers
to try to figure out how to reducetheir take of endangered species.
Um, one great example off ofthe Oregon coast is the, um,
pink shrimp fishery, which wascatching a lot of endangered econ.
(36:36):
And they worked with researchersand realized if they, um, put
lights on their nets, they reducedtheir econ catch to almost nothing.
I mean, it was like, it was phenomenal.
Wow.
The results.
So a really simple change that led toa really great conservation outcome for
the econ, worked for the fishery andmade pink shrimp much more sustainable.
(36:58):
Um, that's amazing.
And similarly, um, in with the Green Seaturtle off the Atlantic Coast in Florida.
You had actually both, uh, agencies,the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the
National Marine Fishery Service workingon conservation, um, of that species.
Fish and wildlife service on the beaches,helping, uh, prevent development on
(37:20):
nesting beaches or mitigating for thatand ensuring that we could bring back
the, that important habitat for nesting.
Mm-hmm.
And in the ocean you had thefishery service working with the
shrimp fishery to try to reducetheir take of green sea turtles.
And, you know, with pretty fabulousresults, they were able to up list two
of the populations in the Atlantic,including the one off the Florida coast.
(37:43):
Um, and I believe the increasewas something like almost no nests
being seen in Florida to over200,000 nests in recent counts.
So really important by workingwith industry and identifying the
problems for a species, we can,yeah, we can work on the solutions
and try to be creative, um, in thefishing industry with modifying gear.
(38:04):
Another great example as I mentioned,is rope list that is being tested
off both the east and west coastright now and in Canada to try
to get less entanglement, um, forthose large whales in pot fisheries.
It, these conservation stories, thesesuccess stories are just phenomenal.
Like to see, as you mentioned, the greensea turtle increase in nests going from
(38:25):
like almost zero to over 200 nests.
Like, you know, across the, the,the southeast, uh, coastline
is absolutely phenomenal.
Uh, we've seen other conservation stories.
The humpback whale on the west coast hashad a significant increase in population
over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years.
And I, and I feel like it's, it'sbecause of this legislation when
(38:45):
they're, when you're put on theEndangered Species Act, you, you
have to put in these recovery plans.
It forces governments, it forcesorganizations, and it, and it triggers.
Money and attention to those specific,you know, species in order to get
them off the list wherever they are.
I mean, I think, you know, one thing wehaven't really dove into, but we, I can
(39:06):
dive into in the intro is the, the levelof, you know, like you're looking at near
extinction, um, you know, you're lookingat, uh, you're looking at, um, endangered,
vulnerable, you know, least concern.
These are all different.
Types of, of settings on the list,let's just say, and, and it's
like the scale, the closer you areto extinction, the worse it is.
But if you're like leastvulnerable, you know, something
(39:28):
like, oh yeah, or least concerned.
We're not totally concerned, but we'rewatching, you know, we're watching
the species because there's, thereseems to be a trend here and, and, and
we need to watch, and you mentionedthe green sea sea turtle getting up
listed twice, meaning that it's, youknow, it's getting less and less, uh,
towards extinction and more and moretowards like, uh, getting off the list.
Um, you know, it's, it'sinteresting when we talk about.
(39:50):
This up, you know, up listing andthen even getting off the list.
It takes a lot to take an animal offthe list, a species off the list because
there's so much protection in there.
We wanna make sure that it's good to go.
Um, do you find, have you ever hadto battle or go to litigation, I
shouldn't say battle, go to litigation?
Uh, when, for a species that were a,maybe a government entity or someone
(40:14):
else wants to take a species offlist 'cause they think it's doing
well, just so that they can get.
Something, something done, you know,from a development aspect, have you
ever had to do that with Oceania orhear of anybody having to do that?
Yeah.
I personally have not had to, uh, fightover delisting, but there have, have
been moves to delist many species.
(40:34):
I think wolves is a primary example.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there have also been effortsto overrule specific species
listing through Congress.
So to get an actualamendment for a species.
Um, one of the most famous is oneof the first, which was really the
snail darter, which was holding upthe Teleco Dam, um, that the Tennessee
Valley Authority was building.
(40:55):
And that case went out all theway up to the Supreme Court.
Um, and then Congress like passed a, abill to allow the dam to be built and
they actually moved the snail darterout of the river 'cause it was gonna be
flooded, um, and to other, other areas.
I ended up finding the species andmore and more rivers after that.
Um, but you know, there have beenattempts to sort of skirt around the
(41:17):
requirements of listing or to get species,uh, attempts to get species delisted.
Yeah.
And you can petition theagency to delist a species.
So just as we were talkingabout petitioning the list
and recently I think it was.
I might get the datewrong, but, um mm-hmm.
The snail darter was actually delisted.
Okay.
Um, several years ago now.
And that was petitioned by, um, youknow, some of the original people
(41:40):
who had got the species listed.
Okay.
And so it took a long time, but that snaildarter came back and they were able to
actually petition a delist, the species.
So yeah, we, it can go bothways, but um, yeah, delisting is.
Something that it is a big decision.
And just as with listing, we'relooking at the whole species.
(42:01):
So sometimes it might feellike a species is increasing,
shouldn't it be off the list?
But there it might be that the threats arestill so severe or their habitat is still
too degraded that we are, we are concernedthat that species not going to recover.
And so that's again thatholistic look at the species.
So it might feel likesometimes we should be.
(42:22):
You know, moving towards delistingand the agency's required to
review those every five years.
Yeah.
Um, and even after delisting, theyhave to continue to monitor that
species for, for five years after.
So we really do wanna make sure we'remaking the right decisions here and.
With about a third of the biodiversityin the us uh, estimated to be at, you
(42:43):
know, at threat right now at risk.
I think we're, you know, ifanything, we're going to be seeing
more listings of species, youknow, and we need more resources
for our agencies to be doing that.
More biologists, more scientists,to be gathering the data, to be
writing the recovery plans forthese species and to make sure that
(43:04):
we're staying on top of that realbiodiversity loss that we're seeing.
Uh, so important.
I mean, we've, we've talked about, youknow, why the Endangered Species Act is
in place and how important what, whatrole and what an important role it plays.
It just goes to show with that darteryou mentioned of, of, you know,
like somebody could have just said,we're not gonna move this species.
We're just gonna build the dam.
(43:25):
If it wasn't on the list, and thatspecies would've, could've been gone, but
they had, they were forced to move it.
And all of a sudden it, it does well,uh, in other, in other river systems.
And it, and it and it, uh, and it doesn'teven so, so well that it can be delisted.
Having these types of laws in thistype of legislation plays such
an important role in the recovery'cause it forces us to pay attention.
(43:47):
It forces to slow down any kind ofdevelopment that might affect that
population or that species, whereverit is, whether it's oceans, rivers,
lakes, wherever, or even on the ground.
And it's such an importantaspect of it and it's why that.
You know, delisting is such ahard thing to do 'cause we're
very cautious when we do it.
Uh, and, and you know, we, we makesure that governments play their
(44:07):
role and do what they need to do.
And, you know, obviously we're,we're recording this in a time
where government resources are,are very thin right now on purpose.
Uh, and it's a, it's trying to allowfossil fuels and other types of natural
resource development to happen faster.
And this is why they do it.
And we need to, um, do asmuch as we can to ensure that.
(44:30):
Um, organizations like Oceania Pay canpay attention and to say, Hey, you know,
hold the governments accountable, makingsure they're working with government
as an industry to say, we can stilldo this, and, and it still needs to
be done because it's part of our laws.
One thing we haven't talked about.
Is your constituency with, with Oceania.
The people, the people whoare listening to this episode,
uh, listen to this podcast.
(44:51):
They always want to get involved.
They always want to beable to do something.
And I know this is somethingthat is, is difficult for
people to completely relate to.
You know, when we talk about issues likeplastic pollution, we can probably play
more of a. Of a short, shorter term roleby reducing our own single use plastics
in our household and our daily lives.
But working with, you know, and tryingto, uh, support work with Endangered
(45:13):
Species Act is, is difficult for peopleto maybe wrap their head around because
it's that such a, a different, it's kindof like disconnected from our daily lives.
How would you suggest, Tara, thatwe could like, uh, the just people,
whether they live in the US or theylive outside the US in their own
countries, how can they play a role in.
Uh, helping out organizationslike yourselves or even just in
(45:35):
individually being able to holdgovernments accountable to, to the ESA?
Well, one great thing about the ESAis that it has a citizen provision.
So if you ever feel that the law is beingviolated, you can actually bring, uh,
litigation even against the government ifyou feel that the ESA is being violated.
(45:55):
Now, that's an extreme step, but thatis of course one of the great things
that we love about the ESA as lawyers.
Um, but also contactyour elected officials.
Let them know why youcare about these species.
You know, what they mean to you.
The southern residents off our coast,the southern resident orcas off our
coast here, have such deep culturalsignificance in the Pacific Northwest.
(46:16):
Legislators need to hear about that.
You know, Congress works forus here in the United States.
We, we elect them to work for us, and theyneed to hear that you care about this.
Mm-hmm.
There are.
Continued threats to theEndangered Species Act.
We have seen many different effortsto weaken the regulation, weaken
the law, um, you know, business andindustry wants to push these through
(46:36):
so that they don't have to change ormodify or halt their developments.
We've seen those sort of pushes inCongress and we need our constituency,
this constituency to be speaking upand make sure Congress hears from
you from the other side to say no.
Species have value andthey add to our economy.
Yeah.
I think we have a, you know, wehave a billion dollar whale watching
(46:58):
tourism industry in this country.
That is nothing to, you know, that's,that's a really important stat and a
very important driver of our economy.
So, um, just making sure that theyhear from you and they hear that
other side of the economic argumenton, you know, why this matters,
um, and why it's really part of ourcultural heritage here as Americans.
I love that.
(47:18):
Thank you so much, Tara.
This has been a pleasureto have you on the podcast.
It's such a, uh, you play such animportant role in, in working with Oceania
and helping us not only in, in terms ofthe courts when you need to, when you
need to battle, but also, you know, makingsure that you know, everybody is following
the law, the right law, the EndangeredSpecies Act, and other laws that.
Are enacted in the US and we reallyappreciate the, the hard work that
(47:39):
you and your fellow, uh, colleaguesat, at Oceania do each and every day.
So thank you so much for coming onthe podcast and, and letting us know.
We'd love to invite you backand to talk more about what you
do in, in different aspects.
Maybe, uh, aside from the, theEndangered Species Act and talk about
plastics next time, um, like I didwith your colleague Christie Levitt.
So it'd be a lot of fun to tohave you back on, and thank you
so much for, for being here.
(48:01):
Thank you for having us andfor anyone that wants to learn
more, please go to oceania.org.
We have tons of ways to get involved.
Take action.
Join our our Wavemaker list.
We'd love to have you in this movement.
That's awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Tara, for joining uson today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
(48:21):
It was great to be able to hearabout all the success that Ocean
has had and all of the work that isdone to put into protecting specific
species that are on the endangeredspecies list, and even trying to get
some that need to be on that list.
And I just think it's phenomenal.
I think the conservation successstories that have come from endangered
species, not only in the US but allover the world, is really, really.
(48:42):
Important to acknowledge thatthis is a tool that works.
These tools bring back speciesif they are done properly, and
organizations like Oceana ensure thatthe government is held accountable
for that recovery process to happen.
Something in that I always value withthe Endangered Species Act, whether
it's in US, Canada, or elsewhere.
Is that the recovery documents or therecovery process that have to be done
(49:06):
for every species, these recoverydocuments are extremely important to
make sure that these species have aplan and can come back from that plan.
It's really, really important tohave that, and it's really great to
see Oceano hold in the governmentto account by that, by putting in
petitions to ensure that they havethese produced, and I think it's great.
Oceania does this all over theworld, not just in the us, but
(49:26):
we're focusing on the US today.
But if you're in a country thathas Oceania I, I highly recommend
that you look up their site.
If you go to the main site, oceania.org,you can probably get to their affiliates.
It's just amazing.
A lot of times if it's, it's ina specific country, you could put
Oceania in the country like Oceania,Canada and Google, and it'll come up.
Or if you're in Europe, you can doOceania Europe and it'll come up as well.
(49:47):
Oceania UK I think is a separateone now, but it's really great to
see Oceania do such great work.
Tara, I wanna thank youso much for joining us.
You were great to have on, lookingforward to having you back on to talk
more about litigation, more about avoidinglitigation to get these projects done
and help the government, you know, beheld accountable and ensure that these
species are protected, whether it's theEndangered Species Act or other laws
(50:09):
like, you know, looking after marineprotection from marine pollution.
So.
Always wonderful to have somebodyfrom Ocean and especially Tara.
It was great meeting and greatintroducing to my audience.
I can't wait for you to come back.
If you're listening to this or you'rewatching this on YouTube, you have
any questions, I would love to hearfrom you or you have any comments or
anything like that, please let me know.
You can get access to me by DMingme on Instagram at How to Protect
(50:31):
the Ocean, or you can just leavea comment in the YouTube comment.
Or you can go to speakup for blue.com/contact.
That's it.
Speak up for blue.com/contact.
Fill the form, goes right tomy personal email and try and
answer them as soon as possible.
And again, I wanna thank you so muchfor joining me on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin fromthe true nor strong and free.
(50:52):
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next timeand happy conservation.
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