Octopus Ocean Book: Exploring the Genius Minds Beneath the Waves with Mark Leiren-Young

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
There are so many ocean animals out there
that have cool characteristics.
They have personalities.
They have these evolutionary attributes
that make them really
cool to look at and really
cool to understand.
And they have this ability to connect
with us, with humans, and
make us feel in a different
sort of way.
Like just emotionally happy, sometimes

(01:00:20):
sad, and sometimes you
just connect with you when
you don't realize it.
And that's who we're
going to talk to today.
We're actually going to talk to Mark
Lanyon, who is an author, a
screenwriter, a playwright,
a filmmaker, who's made a name for
himself, writing and doing
videos and movies upon orcas,
on sharks, and now on octopuses.

(01:00:42):
And we are going to talk to his new book,
Octopus Ocean, on
today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the podcast where you find
out what's happening
with the ocean, how you can
speak up for the ocean and what you can
do to live for a better
ocean by taking action.

(01:01:04):
On today's episode, we're going to be
talking about a new book
that Mark Lanyon has written.
It's called Octopus Ocean.
It is the geniuses of the deep.
He talks about his
connection to octopuses.
He talks about not only his connection,
but just to the ocean
environment, into the animals
that live in the ocean environment.
He lives out in BC.
He's got a very interesting connection to

(01:01:25):
the orcas out in BC.
He talks about that connection and just
like it's an emotional
connection that not only
he's had, but he said
many people that he's met.
And I've met too, who you see when people
watch these orcas and see these orcas and
see how phenomenal they are just by
spotting them, it
overtakes them with emotion.
Happiness, sadness, just this

(01:01:46):
bewilderment of watching
these orcas do their thing.
And the stories that he has, you are
going to want to watch.
He teaches storytelling.
He tells stories in such a magical way
that I wanted you to
be able to hear this.
So here is the interview with Mark Lanyon
talking about octopus ocean and orcas and
all these different animals and wonderful
connection to these animals.

(01:02:07):
Here's the interview.
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
Hey, Mark, welcome to the how
to protect the ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk
about octopus ocean?
Absolutely.
All right.
On.
I am looking forward to this.
This has been a long time coming.
You and I have been
planning this for a while.
I, you are a fellow podcaster.
Skana is the podcast that I was actually

(01:02:28):
a guest on, which was a lot of fun back.
I think it was in the summer.
Was it released?
Is that yeah, it was in the summer.
So that was a lot of fun.
And so it's always nice to, to be able to
interview another podcaster.
So that was one of the reasons we had you
on, but also you are a, an author and you
have a new book out that we're going to
talk about called octopus ocean.

(01:02:48):
And we love talking about octopus and we
love talking about the ocean in general.
So we're going to talk about podcasting.
We're talking about the ocean.
We're talking about writing, talking
about works for the ocean.
And I think it's going to be a lot of
fun, but before we get
into all that fun stuff,
Mark, why don't you just let the audience
know who you are and what you do?
Wow.
I am a writer.

(01:03:09):
I read all sorts of different things.
I've never sure that it's so funny
because for the how to
protect the ocean podcast,
I feel like it's just like, yeah, I read
lots of stuff about
oceans because I really
do. I, my life was, my life was taken
over by orca's back in
2015 and they have not
let up. And like basically it's like,

(01:03:31):
yeah, I, I belong to J-pod at this point.
And, uh, but that turned into books about
sharks that turned into this new book,
but octopuses, I've got another book
coming out next year that was the main
reason I wanted to interview you because
it's all about how to protect the oceans.

(01:03:52):
But for kids, I'm like,
I have to talk to you.
You are the how to protect the ocean guy.
And you are the only person who's not a,
who's not like a youth activist who I've
currently quoted in the
book, assuming you make it.
Wow.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
I was like, I have to quote the guy who
runs the how to
protect the ocean podcast.
He had the how to protect
the oceans for kids book.
It's in the name. It's in

(01:04:13):
the name. It kind of goes.
Yeah.
Right. I love that. Um, you know, it's a
lot of fun when we, we, uh, we talk to
authors because a lot of the authors that
we've actually talked to
come up with like textbooks.
You know, I had a Dr. David Ebert on here
a number of times. He's written, I think
it was over 35 tech textbooks. Uh, we've
had David Schiffman, which is a bit of a

(01:04:35):
textbook and kind of every day.
Also wonderful intro to sharks.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. A perfect one to
sharks. Um, so we had a lot of people on
that, that have different books on being
activists and, and, uh, you know, about
climate change and growing up with
climate change and
all that kind of stuff.
And it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of
fun when you have someone who's just
dedicated and you've written multiple

(01:04:55):
books on the ocean. So let's just start
off right from the beginning. I want to
get to know you a little bit.
I want the audience to get to know you a
little bit. Where did this passion for
the ocean come from?
Wow. This is where my life gets totally
confusing for most people. And because
you're you, I'll give you more context
that I don't like it.
Please.

(01:05:15):
Yes. Well, I've always people now assume
that I've got a background like you or
David Schiffman or something that I've
got a background in at the very least a
background in science.
Yes.
You know, I've got much more of a
background in comedy. I've got much more
of a background in theater. I've got a
degree in theater and creative writing. I
went to an event where I was speaking to

(01:05:38):
the Marine Mammal Symposium at the
University of British Columbia.
And I went, I think I'm the old, not only
do I think I was the only speaker who
wasn't an ologist in a Marine related
profession. I was definitely the only
person there with a master of fine arts.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, you know, yeah, like one.
Three hundred people there. I'm pretty

(01:05:59):
sure I'm the only one who's positive.
Yeah. I guess a safe bet. So weirdly,
where my life took a very interesting
left turn was I was writing for Maclean's
magazine a jillion years ago.
Wow.
And I was writing a story from Maclean's

(01:06:19):
on the never ending battle at the time
over cetaceans in captivity, vinca record
and for any of the listeners who do not
know this Maclean's used to be a very,
very, very big deal.
Oh, this is huge.
It was like Time
magazine for Canada, really.

(01:06:41):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I was used to writing for regional
publications. I'd written for a lot of
stuff in B.C. I've written for like most
the alternate weeklies, but writing for
Maclean's was pretty posh.
And I realized very quickly that I could
talk to anybody I wanted to because I
could just say, hi, I'm Mark. I'm voting
for Maclean's and suddenly I took

(01:07:03):
politicians. I could talk to celebrities
like when I was doing the clean story.
So that who's the guy
to talk to about orcas?
Yeah, Paul Watson.
Yes, I. So I called Paul Watson, you
know, who at that time, man, thinking he
see shepherd at the time.
So it was just left green.
Was he did he leave
green piece at that point?

(01:07:24):
I'm not sure what the math was, but I'm
pretty sure he was running the sea
shepherd at that time because he left
green piece when I was pretty young.
But I asked him about orcas, captivity,
then cream and the time captivity was so
not his issue, right? Like he's he's
become more passionate about it now.

(01:07:45):
But at the time, he's like really wild
whales from a thing. I'm really not your
guy. But did you know the bank for query
was the first place ever to
capture and display an orca?
And no, how do I not know that? And they
said, did you know
that harpoon that orca?
I was like, God is amazing. How do I not

(01:08:07):
know that? And I did two things that
broke. I mean, I was a professional
freelancer. I made my living writing for
newspapers and magazines
doing freelance stories.
And I did two things freelancers do not
do one. I have no idea why for the life
of me. I still don't know why decades
later. But I decided that the story of

(01:08:29):
this or can captivity was for me. It
wasn't for my clients.
Okay.
For I don't know why I did that. I was
just like, No, I'm not wasting this in
this right up on cetaceans and captivity.
I went, I need to know more about this.
And that was the other thing they did
that freelancers do not do. I decided I

(01:08:52):
was gonna look into this
with nobody paying me for it.
Yeah, passion project at this point.
I was just like, I need to know more
about this. And so I tracked down Dr.
Marie Newman, who at that time had been
retired from the Vancouver crane for some
time. And I said, would you talk to me
about this orca you captured? And he's

(01:09:13):
like, yeah, it was an accident. The orca
was named Moby doll. But the first thing
he does is he breaks open this book from
1964, the same year that they
accidentally caught Moby.
And he reads me this passage. And I'm
gonna badly paraphrase this. There was a
period I could have done this dead on.
But basically, it was lions, tigers and
bears or fierce creatures, but far more

(01:09:35):
dangerous, far more ferocious than any of
these is the dreaded killer whale. Wow.
This this was written by the top whale
expert in the US. And Marie Newman, as I found it later, still is the most important thing.
And I found out later, studied trout. His
PhD thesis was trout. So he talked about

(01:09:58):
learning more about orcas and he's like,
not anybody can talk to you and said, you
don't go near them. They will kill you.
You get anywhere near an orca. Sorry.
Anyone here killer whale. Nobody's using
the term orca. No, it was all killer
whale. All killer whale. So and you get
anywhere near one of these killer whales,
it will kill you. There were people who
are afraid that they

(01:10:18):
would approach them on land.
That if they got too close to shore, that
killer whale is going to jump up like as
scary as we think as scary as people
thought sharks were after jaws. That's
how scary everybody seemed to think these
orcas were back in the in the mid sixties
blew my freaking mind. And then the more

(01:10:40):
I learned about it, the more I went, oh
my god, I've stumbled onto a real life
science fiction story. Now, science
fiction is my thing. I went, yeah, I
found the story of first consciousness.
Story of first contact with an alien
creature. And the other thing that I
thought was this was the free willy era.
So nobody wanted to hear a story about an
orchid captivity. The where it wasn't

(01:11:03):
this is monsters like, no, this was
science happening in real time. This was
discovery in real time. And I was
obsessed with the story. I can't stress
enough. I was having almost none of my
pitches rejected this time. I was, I was like, no, I'm not.
You know, I was going to do this. I was like, no, I was going to do this.I was just, I was just like, no, I was like, I was getting the
news back to this time. I was like,
winning magazine awards on regular basis
newspaper boards. I could not get anyone

(01:11:23):
to let me write about this story. Really?
Nobody was like nobody was interested?
No, it was a history piece. I was dealing
with a guy who I think was already in his
seventies. He was my nobody was into it
at all. I could not solve anyone. Were
you surprised by that? Yeah. So you were
so interested. I well, I started going to
people that I knew who made documentary

(01:11:45):
films and I went, you
should do this. Yeah.
like, not, I should do this because I'm
not capable of this. I
don't know how to make
a documentary. And they were like, well,
you're the one who's
passionate about it. Let's pitch
it. I had an Academy award winning
documentary maker try and
pitch this documentary. I had
an Emmy award winning documentary maker
and they just kept

(01:12:06):
running into you. It's not
free willing. The story of what he wanted
was people wise free
willing free. They wanted
free willy. They didn't want this history
piece. And this is
the third thing I did as
a freelancer that there's no other story
that I've ever stuck with
like this. I kept trying
to give it away because I kept saying
somebody has to interview
these key people because

(01:12:27):
they're all really old and they just have
to get the story.
Yeah. Yeah. Because what
I found out was that all of the
interviews that were done
with him all started from except
for the stuff in the sixties, everything
started from the premise of how could you
do this horrible thing? Yeah. And they
left out the context of in 1964 fishermen

(01:12:50):
were shooting these orcas on site. We had
a machine gun turret set up off the coast
of Campbell River to slaughter killer
whales. So this was the world in 1964.
Yeah. And the idea that essentially
really in days of the time Moby doll was

(01:13:13):
accidentally captured this shifted blew
my mind. So I chased after this story.
Like I looked this up. I actually reached
out to Moby Dick scholars who went they
figure a have chased Moby doll. Sorry, a
have chased Moby Dick. Yeah. For three
for three years max. Right. I chased I

(01:13:36):
chased Moby doll for freaking decades.
Before anybody would talk to me because I
finally got Marie Newman to say I will
I'll let you tell the story or sorry. I
finally other way around. I finally
figured out how I could do the
interviews. I didn't know who was going
to do them for but I made my own. I made
a different movie. I made a feature film
called the green chain. Oh, cameras

(01:13:56):
aren't that scary. And I asked the camera
man. I said, what would it cost? That
could just book you for one day. I want
to interview these old guys. I have no
idea what I want to do with it, but I
just need to interview with them. Just
I can sleep at night. I know I need to
know somebody has protected the story.
Right. And somebody's asked them stories
in context and I get the camera man. He's

(01:14:18):
a documentary guy has won awards and I'm
so psyched and Marie Newman said, you
know what? Every time I've opened my
mouth, but Moby doll somebody calls me a
monster. I've never talked about it
again. No. Yeah. So I finally figured out
how to do this. Yeah. And this is where I
cross into a have
territory because at this point,
I am sending Marie Newman Christmas

(01:14:40):
cards. Right. He is sending me
relationship. He is sending me articles
about diving. He's like Mark, I will talk
to you about anything in my entire
career. Not just not Moby doll. And
finally, there's a symposium on Saturna
Island celebrating the legacy of Moby
doll. It's like closing in the 50th

(01:15:01):
anniversary and news. You know what?
We'll do this. Let's do
this. And so he invites me over.
To his house and you can tell and this is
a decade on easily since my first man. So
he's long retired and he invites me over
to his house and thank God. I had a

(01:15:22):
producer who was a friend who went, you
know what? I'm going to send a couple
cameras with you. Let's see what happens.
My wife came with a GoPro.
Like we had cameras everywhere because
what he did was he said, you know what? I
think you should talk to everybody.
So I show up and I arrive. He went from
nine to 10 o'clock. You will talk. You
will speak with me from 10 o'clock to 11.

(01:15:43):
You will speak to Dr. Pat McGeer, who was
the neuroscientist who was the scientist
in the expedition from 11. You will talk
to the chief veterinarian from Vancouver.
He'd lined up every from noon to one. We
will have lunch. We were having tuna fish
sandwiches and cookies.
It was like a full day conference kind of thing for you. Here's my science background and my

(01:16:29):
science background is really weird
because my lab partner in chem 11. Dr.
Bob, Dr. Robert is with the top AIDS
researchers out there teaches at SFU now.
Todd is you know like and I almost ruined
his science career because I would make
jokes. We would get projects. I would

(01:16:51):
make jokes on them and the chem the chem
teacher actually gave me a great year.
And I was like, you cannot get anymore
called a conditional pass and the
condition was I never set foot in another
science classroom. Right? So so that was
my science background up until suddenly

(01:17:14):
I'm in the middle of this. So I'm
somewhere that science teachers like no,
no, you're you're not for
science article in Canada.
And I did a story called the killer whale
that changed the world for CBC radio for
ideas and that won a Webster award and

(01:17:34):
the night of the Webster awards and I'd
pitch this to publishers for 20 something
years night of the Webster
awards publisher came up.
I thought of doing a book and like, yeah,
huh. She'd be like, no. And wrote the
book and somebody that you will have
heard of and I'm hoping your listeners
are aware of Eric Hoyt was kind enough to
read the book and blurt.

(01:17:56):
Yeah, the biggest, you know, marine
mammal scientist and the guy he's the
guy. Yeah. Yeah. So he offers to read the
book and he gets back to me and he said,
I love it. I've only got one suggestion.
What's that? He said, not the killer
whale that changed the world. The killer
whale who changed the

(01:18:17):
world. So not and my.
Yeah, my publishers went for it. I mean,
even though we'd started publicizing even
though CBC thing and one major award,
they're like, we'll go with that. I'm I
will be forever grateful to Eric, quite
for that suggestion because that set me

(01:18:37):
down an entire path of referring to
animals as who not what he, she and they
not it and realizing that's what Dr.
Jane Goodall is into and you know, France
to wallow down throw put an aisle became
an obsessed of mine. So that's where all
that went and then what happened going

(01:18:59):
back to the books orca publishing, which
ironically does not publish a lot of
books about orcas reached out to me and
they're one of the top kids publishers in
Canada and I'd known the publisher from
my other life where I
published funny stuff.
Yeah, she said, would you be interested
in doing a kid's book of the killer will

(01:19:19):
have changed the world and I went to
depressing a story. I mean, the whale,
you know, Moby dies. Yeah, being
harpooned. It is a sad freaking story.
Like, sure. I do believe that will change
the world, but it's a sad story. And I
said, could I just do a story about all
the amazing things I've learned about
orcas since being thrown into this world?

(01:19:41):
And she went absolutely.
And that became workers everywhere and
then I had I used to do a lot of
interviews around movies. I covered the
Toronto Film Festival for 20 years of the
Georgia Strait of Vancouver, sometimes to
think for some and one of the people I
met actually I'd met him when my movie

(01:20:05):
about forests, which
was fictional was touring.
And I was a little bitof a fan of Rob
Stewart who made the movie Sharkwater.
Yeah, and we kind of became friends and
so I introduced his movies film festivals
and we hung out a bit and he was actually
set to write a blurb for the killer whale

(01:20:27):
who changed the world and be one of my
first guests on Skana.
And I decided that the way to honor him
on Skana and part of my podcast was to
run some of the interviews I'd done with
him over the years, even though they were
never intended as audio.

(01:20:47):
And I had I did that and somebody working
on his posthumous movie reached out and I
had no idea that you were so into him.
Would you be willing to work on promoting
his movie to NGOs and basically talking
about the work politically?

(01:21:08):
And I was like, Oh, you began to reach
out and go, you know, these are the
things that we would like
to see happen to help sharks.
It's like, oh, this is like, so yeah, the
to be one of the best things that ever
happened in the podcast was being invited
to do that. Yeah, and
the orcas everywhere.
And you know, the first book for orcas

(01:21:29):
also turned into a book, a baby book, a
big whale, small world and a picture
book, or because it's the other C, and
orcas really happy and said, would you
like do something else?
I would like to write the book about
sharks that Rob should have written.
So that, and I reached out before saying

(01:21:51):
yes, I reached out the
shark water foundation.
I went, do you think Rob's
parents will be cool with us?
Would you guys be cool with this?
And so that Rob's
parents gave me their blessing.
Shark water foundation gave me their
blessing as access to their photos.
Oh wow.
All of these amazing photos.

(01:22:11):
I also did a shark baby book, which was
specifically because I
wanted to get across that sharks
are awesome, not scary.
Yeah.
Right.
And then, one sec.
And then, or I can say, so
what else are you going to do?
I'm like, I got nothing.
This I keep, this isn't my world.

(01:22:33):
I'm like a comedy writer.
Please man.
But my wife rain, who basically is
responsible for me having
the podcast to she did the tack
and said, yeah, if you did
the podcast, I'll do the tack.
Okay.
I said, you should do octopuses because
octopuses are awesome.
And so I came through so amazing.

(01:22:56):
And so I came in octopuses completely
cold beyond always, you
know, whatever I'd gone
to an aquarium as a kid, I would just
obsess over watching them.
Of course.
Cause how do you not?
Yeah.
Right.
And, but I came at
their world completely cold.
And again, that's where

(01:23:16):
the podcast was a gift.
So it, Oh, I will just interview octopus
experts and I'll get
them to tell me things.
So I interviewed Simon, Montgomery, and
they interviewed down a
staff and just went, okay,
tell me cool octopus things
that kids would want to know.
And I went to, I went to a local
elementary school and what do you know?
What do you want to know?

(01:23:37):
And so that was just kind
of fueled it all for you.
Right?
Yeah. But that was just pure research and fun.
Right.
But again, it's very odd sort of led like
if, if like my career,
my life has taken a lot
of odd turns.

(01:23:58):
I'm pretty sure no one could have
predicted that 2015, I was
going to write a book about
orcas and 2025 that this is
still where I'd be playing.
Yeah.
I would still be talking about orcas.
Still talking about the science.
Oh yeah.
My, my students, I teach courses in
writing and pop culture
and intro to fight hearts.

(01:24:19):
And my students were like,
you're the whale guy, right?
Like my classes are on the marvel.
I teach a storytelling course built
around the marvel
universe, a storytelling course
built around the DC universe.
Like you're the whale guy, right?
You're the whale guy.
Yeah.
Now you got to switch
your storytelling courses.
You got to switch it to more of, uh, you
know, of, of like, like
ocean stuff, you know, I

(01:24:40):
try.
I, I try.
Am I intro to fine arts?
I'm just like, yeah, I'm just like, yeah,
we're going to talk about whales now.
And like, if I let my students ask me
questions, they now go,
tell us more about sharks.
But like, and I'll talk about like the
studies on lemon sharks and friendship.
Yeah.
Like, what are the most like, what are

(01:25:02):
the things that are
most shocking to people?
And that's what I go to.
Like it's the stuff you cover, man.
Yeah.
Like it's why I love your podcast because
you cover all of the, this stuff that's
just unexpected, right?
That sort of rakes the
way we think things are.
Well, I think, I think that's the thing
is, is when you take all this
information, there's one of the reasons
why I do the podcast and you bring on

(01:25:24):
people who you may or may not have heard
of at some point in time.
And you talk about the
cool projects that they like.
There are so many cool things and
research and conservation projects and
impacts and channels like I just did.
I just did an interview just before this
on, you know, there's a guy who's in in
in Australia who started an organization
because he saw the Great Barrier Reef

(01:25:46):
bleach 10 years ago.
And he wasn't happy about that.
They needed more data.
So he came up with a way to create an
A.I. and use citizen scientists to
basically, you know, determine and get
more data just in terms of like three
categories of reefs.
And so now it's an app where you can
actually just go and use the A.I. and you
just need science to say, yes, this is

(01:26:06):
rubble or yes, this is a branching coral.
Yes, this is a a a
boulder coral or whatever.
And that information goes to university
and they put that into a model.
Like, how do you come up
with this kind of stuff?
And you don't do it until you start
reaching out to people or they reach out
to you and then you start talking to them
about this kind of work.
Right. And you never know

(01:26:27):
who it's going to inspire.
Like, just like he was in the Netherlands
at the time where hearing about the Great
Barrier Reef, he was originally from
Australia, moves back and is like, yes,
like I'm going to do something about this
because I have to, you know, like that's
an incredible story
that needs to be told.
I've met students who've gone into marine
science because they read The Killer
Wheel could change the world.

(01:26:48):
That blows my mind.
Isn't it crazy? Yeah, it's crazy.
And you never know who they might become.
You never know what they might
accomplish, you know, and and like you've
done like, like for when you
write, what do you write for?
Like, like when you write a book, any of
the books that you that
you've written in your past, right?
How many books have you read?
Yeah, I don't know.

(01:27:09):
I like I really don't know.
No, no. And and about
countless articles, right?
Like countless articles.
Yeah. Oh, thousands.
Right.
Right.
Thousands of articles.
So when you write a piece, whether it's
an article or a book or whatever, like
overall, like what are you trying to
accomplish at that point?
I'm trying to share whatever I
found that I think is amazing.

(01:27:30):
Right.
Whatever I'm like that, whatever I think
people should know this like the shark
book just kind of kicks off
going sharks do not want to.
You eat you if you read no further, this
is all you need to know.
You need to know.
Right.
Like you can just stop the book now.
Sharks don't want to eat you.
Right.
With the Octopus book, I so wanted to get

(01:27:51):
across how amazing they are, how
intelligent they are.
And with orcas, for lack of a better
word, how human they are.
Right.
Like the gift to me of not being a
scientist is that I came at this world
having no clue that
anthropomorphism was a thing.

(01:28:12):
I did not, I did not even know that term.
So, um, so, and I lucked out because the
first, when the first scientist, he
really made time for me was Lance Barrett
Leonard for the bank for credit.
And he is his life has been
dealing with orca behavior.
And I think I caught him on just the

(01:28:32):
right day because when I was asking him a
question, he said, you know what?
I'm really tired of
apologizing for more of housing.
He said, I don't know what else to say
beyond these animals have the
same type of emotions we do.
Yeah.
Right.
And I caught him on.
I really do think it was
like just the right day.
And rain.
I asked him a question that became kind

(01:28:55):
of a go to for me in all of my work
since, which was, she said, do
you think whales are psychic?
Because he was talking about where these
orcas show up and he,
he didn't love the word.
Of course.
But he went first day I show up in
Vancouver and I'm about to dedicate my
life to these orcas and I'm on a kayak

(01:29:19):
and I'm suddenly surrounded by orcas.
And I started asking the question a
little bit differently and I started
basically asking people who've devoted
their lives to orcas.
Tell me your impossible story.
Tell me the story that you are
uncomfortable sharing because it just

(01:29:41):
sounds fictionally implausible.
Tell me your
fictionally implausible work.
I started and they all have one and they
actually they all multiples and the one
that really blew my mind.
I know have multiples and the one that
just completely blew my mind was
Alexandra Morton talking about these
orcas surrounding her when her boat was

(01:30:03):
lost the fog and the orcas leading her
back to safety and
this pod she was studying.
And the reason that it blew my mind was I
went, I think Ken Baucom told me that
story a few months ago and Ken Baucom
said it for whale researcher.
Same thing where his boat was lost and a

(01:30:24):
group of orcas, a pod of orcas surrounded
him and took him to safety.
This isn't possible.
I like I actually heard the story and I
couldn't even connect it to that.
I must be mixing up.
Ken must not have told me
this like, yeah, he did.
And in both cases,
they said the same thing.
This happened once.
This happened exactly once.

(01:30:45):
They were in trouble.
The orcas stuck with them.
And I look and I put a chapter about all
of these weird things.
Yeah, in orcas everywhere.
And the first time I read this chapter,
I'm on Saturna Island.
I'd spent an entire summer on Saturna
Island because somebody Saturna Island
was where Moby doll was captured.

(01:31:05):
Right.
Somebody basically gifted me their place
on Saturna Island for a very small fee so
I could write the book on Saturna Island.
Never managed to see an orca the whole
time I'm on Saturna Island there.
And so Rain and I are
there the whole summer.
So I'm back.
They want me to do a reading in the park
where Moby was harpooned.

(01:31:28):
And this is just after Taliqua had
carried her dead daughter for 17 days.
And I had decided I had not told anybody
this, but I decided I
could no longer do this.
It was just too sad.
I was like, I, because it's hard for
people to get to now you hear the

(01:31:48):
Southern residents and they're no longer
called the Southern residents.
They're called the critically
endangered Southern residents.
Yeah.
And when, when I jumped onto this story,
when I first told the story of the killer
whale who changed the world, it was a
phenomenal story of a recovery of the
population of recovered and everybody I
talked to was excited and enthusiastic
and talking about the
resilience of nature.

(01:32:09):
I didn't talk to a single sad person.
They were all like, Oh
my God, is this amazing?
And then they started to freaking die.
And I was making a movie called the
hundred year old whale.
I can show you a link to this one because
it it's up everywhere now.
Made a movie with rain called the hundred
year old whale and about granny.

(01:32:31):
But I thought we're going to put out that
movie and I'm going to put out this book
and then I'm done
because this is just too sad.
Yeah, it's hard.
I'm standing there and I'm about to read
from this chapter for this book that is
unpublished and somebody shouts whale and
suddenly all the people
are there for the reading.
We race to the side of the cliff and

(01:32:52):
there is J pod, including
telequa freaking dancing.
Like, I don't know how else you want to
put it, but they are
just splashing everywhere.
Have a good time.
I got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm yours.
Yeah.
I don't get to quit.
I'm yours.
Right.
That's insane.

(01:33:12):
Like the timing, you know, like, oh, like
I absolutely decided I was done.
I was absolutely sure I
was done and J pod shows up.
And when I posted some Facebook, the
number of people said they showed up for
you, which sounds utterly crazy.
I'm so you go back to you go back to Eric
Hoyt's work where he goes or because show

(01:33:34):
up for the people who need them.
Yeah, and this is in
Orca and Marie Newman back.
The first time I saw the word psychic
Mitch was Marie Newman saying
these orcas must be psychic.
They've never avoided
to turn Island before.
And here we are.
We've been here all summer and it's like
they know we've got a harpoon.
When the, when the machine go, we'll set

(01:33:54):
up at Campbell river.
The orcas went nowhere near Campbell
river that entire summer.
And you already.
So how does that happen?
Right.
Like that's that's where I've
just become totally obsessed.
Yes.
Like, how does that happen?
It's unreal to like, you know, you hear
these these, as you say, impossible

(01:34:14):
stories and you just say,
you know, how can they show up like this
each and every time, you know, how can
they help guide people to safety?
How can they show up in emotional moments
where you just, you know, you know,
they've been going through a hard time.
You follow them for you for decades.
And then all of a sudden
they show up when you need them.
Like when you're like, I'm

(01:34:35):
not sure I can do this anymore.
Like, this is it after this.
And they're like, no,
you still have a job to do.
You need to you need to speak for us.
And we're going to be here
for you when, when you need it.
It's it's weird because, you know, as a
scientist, you're just
like, this, this doesn't happen.
It's like, this is not a thing, you know,
but when you when you look at the
complexity and emotion, emotionality, I
guess, of these whales, you know, these

(01:34:57):
these orcas, you are, I feel like you're
constantly surprised, you know, as as,
you know, general, we like we're
constantly surprised by
what they can accomplish.
Right. And, and, and you just think about
the last 40 years that they, what we've
put them through as humans and you just
like, they keep showing up for us yet,

(01:35:18):
you know, humans keep doing this to them.
And it's like, at what point are we going
to learn, you know, that we need to do
better for these, for these animals?
I, I mean, I go with Ken Balcom on,
Telico was trying to tell us something.
Right. But I mean, like, to me, the story
just told me, that's not even our
craziest orchestra. Right. Like, I had

(01:35:41):
sold what we call the hundred year old
whale, I had assumed there was a ton of
footage of granny out
there, because she's really old.
Whether she's around everywhere.
So what happens is, Rain and I are like,
oh, you know, we're out hanging around
downtown Victoria. And there's a, there's

(01:36:03):
a particular whale watching company that
works with a lot of the department
fisheries notions were
scientists, a lot of unique people.
Um, and the guy who runs it said, you
know what? If we see granny, if we see
her, we will take you out and we have
this great conversation. She said, you
just need to know she's mostly hanging
out with this other
orchid and onyx from L pod.

(01:36:23):
They are not being spotted very often.
They're not being spotted with J pod. So
no idea if we'll be able to help you up
with summer. Yeah. If it happens, we'll
call an hour later, he calls and says,
um, hi, you know, I
said, we haven't seen granny.
Granny just showed up and she's hanging
out by one of our whale watching boats.
How fast can you get down to fishermen's

(01:36:44):
work? And next thing I know, rain and I
rain has a new camera. She's never used.
Because this is not supposed to be for
the film. This is just a camera. She was
out playing with that day. And, oh, he
said, you know what, I'm going to take
you out because we, you may never get

(01:37:04):
that another chance.
So Brett who runs this company, Eagle
Wing, uh, Clint, who's this amazing
photographer, rain and I get on a boat. I
don't, I just assumed he was getting us
on a whale watching, but he's just
getting us on his boat.
So we could see granny.
Cause he said, granny story is important.
I will help you tell this story to race
out there. And the best way to get it

(01:37:26):
across with the people on the whale
watching boat who they had left there so
that we could catch them. So they would
not lose sight of granny.
When they got back to shore, they said
they were asked other choices. Oh, you
know, it was great. But then the other
boat showed up and it was amazing. And
what happens is we show up rain points

(01:37:48):
your camera. And if you've ever been out
looking for orcas with the camera, you
know that they're like, oh, camera. Yeah.
We're side to side wherever you want,
wherever you point
that camera. Good luck.
I might be right behind you, but you
won't know. Good luck getting my freaking
tail. No, no. The granny goes, Oh, hey,
rain. I'm going to tell a slap for you.

(01:38:11):
And then a moment later, it's like, Hey,
rain, I think I'm going to jump out. I'm
going to spy hop for you. And then
there's, we're out at, if you know, no,
what films magic hours when the sun just goes orange and purple.
Right? Yeah. We are out at magic hour.
Pretty much the entirety of J pod, except
for granny is behind the boat for all

(01:38:32):
looking almost right behind us. Like
we're parked. We're not moving. They're
coming towards towards you guys. They're
like, Hey, we're ready for a close up.
Just get that camera ready. And I
actually said, look, I don't care if the
orcas behind us start to hula. I said
granny was over there. Just point your
camera over there. Yeah.

(01:38:52):
Yeah. As much as possible. And the next
thing we know, granny does this
phenomenal perfect freaking breach. Does
this arc out of the water rain catches it
just to make sure she didn't miss it. She
does it a second time. She's and if you
listen to the entire tape, like if you

(01:39:12):
can hear the whole audio, you can hear
the guy who has been running these whale
watching tours and the
photographers but out with them for
decades. Yeah. Oh my, oh my, oh my, oh
my, this granny's getting like, they
sound like four year old girls and then
you hear me, the mother and going, please
tell me about the shot. Please tell me
about the shot. Please tell me about the
shot. Uh, like the camera did not reset

(01:39:35):
in time to get the second breach because
they were so fast. Wow. And I said to,
and I turned to guys. I said, she must
have seen this dozens of times. Yeah. And
they looked at it. No, five times ever.
We've seen granny breach five times ever.
Those were two of them.
Jesus. Then I reached out
to center for whale research.

(01:39:56):
Decades. They've been out there for
decades. I reached out to center for
whale research and went, can we please
get all of your footage of granny? And I,
oh, we've got no footage of granny. And
what do you mean with this? We've got
some stills. But it's. But no.
And I started putting out calls for
footage of granny. If we had known there

(01:40:16):
was no footage of granny, we couldn't
have made the movie. Our producer
wouldn't have approved it. So this one
fluky day, we get the footage that ends
our movie that if we want a whole bunch
of awards for that movie, we want awards
because granny showed up for her close
up. A few days later, rain goes out
without me. Just one of the great regrets

(01:40:36):
of my life was I was like,
no, I've got some deadlines.
And a super pod shows up again. The boat
is freaking parked and the super pod just
goes, excuse me. She needs some photos
for her movie. So we've got seven New
Yorkers here. We better. We heard you're
making a movie. We want to be
in granny. We would all like.

(01:40:58):
We'd all like to be
in the movie. Yeah. So.
Rain was supposed to give a bit of extra
footage for a movie and
instead she shot half the film.
In these right now, one in these two days
because she's got the super
pod and she came back just.
In tears. And this is the most amazing
thing I've ever seen in my life. Right.

(01:41:23):
And again, super pods are wild and scientifically important.
And I think that's a very plausible
because they almost always seem to
coincide with bursts and deaths. Yeah.
Again, sciencey scientists are very
uncomfortable and just even it's a
coincidence. I'm like, no, no, I read my
Sherlock Holmes once as a coincidence.

(01:41:44):
Three times as evidence. Right? Exactly.
Fifty times I don't get how you don't go
some in some way, shape or form. We do
not understand. They are sharing
information that is saying it's super pod
time, guys. We've got a we got a
celebration or we've got a grief ritual.

(01:42:06):
And unreal. Yeah.
These like it's really interesting to see
like you telling these stories and then
you know, you see on like I watch tiktok
incessantly I'm addicted and I see a
number of creators on there that you
know, are scientists and they talk about
orcas and they work for organizations

(01:42:28):
around orcas or they live in B.C.
And I'll tell you when they show their
footage of them going out just to see
them like they hear the orcas are in or
they're close or they I don't know if
there's like a network of people citing
them and then people just you see all
these careers just go and a lot of times
they're just showing the camera.
You know, they may have music in the

(01:42:50):
background. Sometimes they don't but they
show themselves watching them and it's
like it's emotional. It's it's super
emotional for these like these
professionals who see them often. Right?
Like they go out whenever they can and
have studied them or have researched them
and when they see them in person, it's

(01:43:10):
like this this uncontrollable human
emotion to get emotional. Whether it's
happiness, whether it's happy tears or
sad tears or whatever that might be.
No matter how many times you like people
live out there and how many times you see
them every time seems to be like it hits
that emotional strings.
It was amazing to me because we really

(01:43:32):
didn't know how our documentary was going
to spin. So one of the questions that I
asked non scientists asked scientists as
well. Can you tell me about the first
time you saw well and the number of times
I heard the word magic.
Like if you know if I was just
categorized in the words that came up
magic and magical just were the go tos.

(01:43:56):
Yeah, right. Just there's something just
overwhelming about being out there with I
just realized that we're
talking entirely about the wrong.
Yeah, but doesn't matter. This is good
because I think people don't realize that
we see them again. We get to see them a
lot on online and on
TV and in documentaries.
I feel like it should be on every

(01:44:16):
everybody's bucket list to go whale. I
should go orca watching. You know, it's
definitely on mine. I've never seen an
orca in the wild. Oh, I know. It's
something that I want to do. You know,
it's definitely on my bucket list.
And it's just I feel like it's just
something just you've seen professionals
who see them often react every time the

(01:44:37):
same way. It's just it's a very different
thing. And I don't know what it is about
these orca's that do it. But they're just
and you've described it just like their
timing their ability to provide like good
moments at the right
time when you just need it.
I mean, other times the frustration of
them not showing up when you go out and
you're looking for them. You got the big
camera out and everything. I just I just

(01:44:59):
love that. But it just goes to show that
it can get someone like yourself who's
not a scientist who doesn't study them,
but as somebody who loves
to write and tell stories.
And there's a number of people. You know,
you mentioned Alexandra Morton who loves
to tell stories about these orca's. Yeah,
very good storyteller in her own right.
And you just sit there
and you're just like.

(01:45:19):
I'm glad that it's not just a scientist
that's writing about these. And of
course, they've affected every people
other than scientists as well. But it's
just so nice to see someone who you and
your and rain your wife like to be like
we want to share their stories like the
way they affected us.
We need their stories to go because
obviously, you know, critically
endangered southern resident orca

(01:45:39):
population. You have the northern orca
population, which they're doing okay, but
they're not the best. You have a
transient population, which we still
don't know too much about.
And then you have another population out
even further, which we still don't like
we're just seems like we're so the
officers are just weird. They're right.
Oh, they're just out there. They're
they're eating sharks. Right. And the
fact that they were identified by their

(01:46:01):
lousy teeth. That's just awesome.
Exactly. Exactly. So it's just such a
like it's such a moment where I did want
to cover because obviously you've
dedicated a big part of your life to
orcas. And it's part of your story in
writing about science.
I think that's it's amazing. But like
when we as you pivot towards different,
you know, going to sharks and other big

(01:46:23):
whales, small world like that type of
work and now octopus ocean when you when
you move in, obviously, you know, sharks
forever. It had a bit different story.
Definitely had that emotional connection
for you and, you know, for Robin, his
family and his legacy.
The other books like what makes it like
obviously people suggested but what makes
like is there an emotional tie that you

(01:46:44):
have to octopus like whales you do but
like what is that tie to octopus that you
have? Well, with octopuses, I was like,
we just come out of the pandemic. And I
had read Simon gumrys amazing book where
she went and hung up with octopuses.
Yeah. And the Shaw Center for the Salish

(01:47:04):
Sea in Sydney, which is like 30 minutes
from my house. And I said, Are you guys
cool with me just coming out and watching
people watch your octopuses? Right? So I
just watched kids and adults watching
mostly this octopus named storm. And

(01:47:25):
after I'd been great, like
one of those great octopus.
Yeah. And finally, it's really
interesting. They're very careful with
who they let meet their octopuses there
because they return them. They've got a
really interesting policy where they're
like, you know what? We are in the center

(01:47:47):
of where these guys live. So we're only
going to keep them six months. Right.
And storm had a really interesting story
because she was basically captured and
was on route to Iceland where she would
have spent her entire life in captivity
and a storm kept her

(01:48:10):
from flying out to Iceland.
And instead of short term at the state of
season, they went, you know, we can just
find another octopus. So why doesn't she
just stay with you? And then she was
supposed to be returned. I think she
stayed with them longer than any other
octopus because we had fires and they
could not get her home. And so her story

(01:48:32):
became a wild story in terms of terrible
weather effects we have here now.
And they were kind enough to let me put a
hand into storms tank right before she
left. Right. And storm we shut and shook
my hand. I'm like, yeah, that's my

(01:48:52):
opening. Like I knew I actually as soon
as I left, I'm like, I went to a cafe
right around the corner from and I wrote
the introductory chapter. And I went, yeah, I've just just right then and there.
Yeah, I was just like, I should cancel
the octopus. Everything else in the
entire book may change. This is my
opening. Because it was shows it you had

(01:49:13):
that connection. Yeah, that was the
inspiration right at that connection.
Yeah, she reached out. She said, Hey,
decided I was nowhere near as interesting
as the crab she was eating. But, you
know, and did she recognize me as the guy I've been watching her off and on for six months?
Probably because they know stuff. Right?

(01:49:35):
Like story after story that I read about
optimuses and interview after interview,
it was like, yeah, yeah, they recognize
keepers they recognize certain people.
And I mean, running into stories with
animals with sense of humor. That's just
weird. Right? Like just going, yeah, they
spray somebody because they want to or,
you know, one of the wildest things that I've ever seen in my life is just how it is.

(01:49:56):
And I think one of the wildest stories
really stuck with me was Chester the
false killer whale, the anchor for
Korean. And I asked this is an animal.
This is false killer whale who washed up.
I remember correctly on the beach. Not
some I've never written about Chester,
but washed up on the beach was taken in
and they don't know didn't know which

(01:50:18):
family Chester belong to and was
basically doing medical rehab for all
that time. Chester would have learned.
How to be a false killer whale. Right?
It's very hard to explain to people like
no, no, these animals learn their own
language. They learn their culture. This
is even in their dialect for each pod.
Like there's differences, right? Yeah. So

(01:50:39):
I said, you know, I asked what seemed
like a really normal question. I said,
you know, what's Chester like? And the
person who was showing
us around the crime what?
Wasn't sure what same kind of an asshole
like what? Yeah, that was my I was like,
what? And they said, Chester has this

(01:51:02):
game and just discovered that when
there's when there's a lot of people
around, especially kids, Chester will
sink like a stone to the bottom of his
tank and wait till people scream and cry.
And then pop back up and go, I'm fine.
They said they dubbed it the resurrection

(01:51:25):
game because Chester was clearly messing.
Yeah, Chester was clearly messing with
the people. They are like and what stuck
with me about that was the idea that
people who were there were very like they
weren't comfortable saying Chester to
personality, but they admitted

(01:51:45):
Chester to personality. Right?
And the idea of the personalities of
these animals, the fact that every single
person I've spoken to who's an octopus
expert is like, oh, yeah, they are so
different. And again, shark people are
like, oh, you have met shy sharks. I've
met friendly sharks. Yeah, that's like
trying to get across their individuals.

(01:52:06):
Well, I like, Mark, I have like I did the
Toronto Zoo podcast for a long time. I
hosted it and I got to talk to
zookeepers. And one of the things that we
had with a special was like stories from
the zookeepers. And they would talk about
their silverback gorillas and they would
talk about the personalities. There was
one. I think it was like Josephine's
daughter. I forget her name. She used to
love hats. She used to see people wear

(01:52:27):
hats. So they gave her hats and she would
try them on in a mirror and see how she
looked like a massive
silverback gorilla would try on a.
A hat like like and I mean sun hats, ball
caps, like everything she would see. And
then she'd like, oh, that looks
interesting. And they would give her old
hats and they should try them on. And
they're the troop leader. You know, big,

(01:52:48):
big silverback, scary, like typical. Like
you do not want to mess. This guy will
rip off your arms in a
second if he really wanted to.
Never did. Of course, he was very gentle.
He was afraid of frogs. Afraid of frogs.
Okay, think about it. Like imagine,
imagine you see. And this is the keeper
said this. They saw one
time there was a frog.
In the in their enclosure and all these

(01:53:10):
gorillas were were like were like
surrounding this frog and you see Charles
just kind of like flick it and like what
and it would jump and they'd all like
back up like these massive
troops of like massive gorillas.
A troop of massive gorillas just would
like be afraid and there was one time and
I'll tell this story quick because I know
this interviews about you. There's one
time where they all where they were
coming out of their nightly enclosure

(01:53:31):
like their bed area. Yeah.
And they came out and Charles stopped all
them and they put them all back into
their bed area and you wouldn't come out
and like what is going on and they looked
around. They looked around. They look
around. There was a tree frog in the back
corner and he saw it. He
wouldn't let any of them out.
So you so afraid of this to the point
where we I was out there with my daughter

(01:53:52):
and we went to watch. She wants to be a
wildlife biologist or watching all these
animals and I'm telling her about all
these these different animals and the
different characteristics of each one and
you see like this outdoor enclosure and
there's like you know it's a cage
obviously reinforced cage and you get to
see these girls like you're not that far
but you can see them
and they're just amazing.
There's one area case that had like a
little cutout. It was like it was

(01:54:14):
reinforced with something else because
like maybe the enclosure broke or
something like that. But it looked like
it was fixed and on there was a picture
of a frog like right dead smack in the
middle of that area that was fixed. It
was a picture of a frog and do you think
the girls went close to
it when they went near it.
They would run to skirt by it so they

(01:54:36):
could get rid of it. They wouldn't run
anywhere else but they would walk walk
walk nice and slow and then it would like
like run like they were afraid because
there was a frog on there.
You're telling me all the I love that so
they all have their different
personalities. They all have their
things. Some of them are devious. Some of
them are tricksters. Some of them are fun
and cuddly and and they're just amazing
to watch and and it's phenomenal to see

(01:54:59):
these these characteristics and I'm sure
if you see orcas in the wild.
They're octopus in the wild. I mean my
octopus teacher wanted Grammy for not
Grammy but an Academy Award for for that
movie because you saw the personality of
an octopus. Well that was one of the
things that came up when I was hanging
out at the center facility was oh my god
everybody had seen that movie. So it was

(01:55:21):
pretty cool when Craig Foster read
Octopus Ocean went yes you're all right
you're nice blurb and gave and did a bit
of a fact check and I'm
like yeah awesome nice nice.
Nice. Nice. You know like okay I feel
very official now. I love it. I love it.
So like so like for what do you what do

(01:55:42):
you want people to get out of octopus
ocean with octopus ocean. I want to get
across the word not the only with so many
of these now that were not the only
intelligent animals on this planet. Yeah
right. Just the more I
learned the more it's like.
Oh wow the whole human exceptionalism

(01:56:03):
thing makes no sense at all because again
coming at this without a science
background. I started by saying okay so
walk me through the whole food chain
concept like walk me through why we're
considered the best the
coolest animal on earth.
And I just like for real I just assumed
there was a scientific basis to this I

(01:56:26):
just assumed somebody's gonna say well
humans can do this and this and this and
I would hear all the stuff is like man
the tool maker. Yeah crows do that you
know like you could just break down like
or no how to make nets with bubbles.
Yeah, like that's cool right and crows
know how to make keys and you just start

(01:56:47):
to go through the animals like okay that
doesn't hold up and I mean one of the
gifts of of of being a social instructor
at the University of Victoria was I've
had access to like amazing students who
have studied science and for orcas
everywhere I got I was basically
a history prof is a friend of mine who

(01:57:08):
was also doing a book on orcas basement.
I have like a bunch extra hours with my
master student. Do you want her to help
you do research and she does she knows
marine biology and I would just go okay
Lily walk me through this I said so I'm
not asking a really dumb question to a
scientist I'm going to ask
the dumb questions to you.
Yeah, I haven't because I have not taken
first year marine biology right so I

(01:57:30):
would ask questions especially around
human exceptionalism basically which I
not a term that I knew when I started
this you know all these years ago and I
kept thinking I would find a science
behind it and what I found was this was
the one place science really was

(01:57:52):
deferring to religion.
And pretending there was science behind
it but really going yeah we're the only
ones who have language and let's define
language to make sure make sure of that
right right let's make sure our
definition of language excludes anything
else that could conceivably be language
and interesting that we that we just kept

(01:58:13):
moving the goalposts and again.
I came at this expecting there to be
goalposts I really did I didn't come out
this contrary I came out this knowing
nothing so I came out this going what is
this anthropomorphism thing you speak of
why am I supposed to why is it a thing in
science walk me through this and going oh

(01:58:35):
there's no scientific basis for this at
all right there's no like walk me through
the science of why this is a bad thing.
You know like my favorite was friends to
all talk me through.
I'm sorry if a three year old sees a
tickle induced vocalizations there oh the
monkey's laughing yes the monkey's

(01:58:56):
laughing yeah yeah yeah yeah different
term different yeah and with the orca
book I saw oh man I saw one scientist
like wrap themselves in knots to come up
with a term that basically made sure you
did not it may have been the sharks in
France and just made sure they they made sure that they were not.
made sure they they have affiliates like

(01:59:19):
really yeah the the big one for me was
taliqua because taliqua just rocked my
world and I so wanted to do another
killer whale who changed the world
because she's the other one who did and
when I saw I think it was the New York
Times go the orca appears to be grieving

(01:59:39):
and I thought no humans may appear to be
grieving I have seen humans at funerals
where they were going oh
I'm glad that they were
that person's in the box right I'm so
glad that I do not believe.
Tala was faking us out here I don't
believe she appears to be good.
So how can we go humans great we know
exactly that all of

(02:00:00):
all human grief is legit.
I cannot know what is going on. Yeah, no,
no, you're trying way too hard to sound
like we have signs and you're just like
hold on a second here like well and then
you can just like it's sentimental
version of this, you know and oh and you
can call it whatever you want but it's

(02:00:20):
it's very similar to what we do right and
then you get into science which again was
all new to me right and you get into
science of mirror neurons and going okay
so these orcas have the
and the apes have the exact same neurons
that are referred to as the neurons that
make us human. So the neurons that deal
with complex emotions like grief, they've

(02:00:42):
got them. So they've got the exact same
neurons we do, but they
don't have the same emotions.
So yeah, crazy. Yeah, crazy. I love it. I
love this conversation. You and I could
probably talk for hours on this and I'm
sure we will have you back on to be able
to talk more about your next
book that you'll be writing.

(02:01:04):
And then and but this is awesome if
people want to get a hold of this and
this copy, how would they do so?
Oh, learn young calm the books available
everywhere you buy books. So all the
books are and learn young calm or scan or
for the podcast look up scan and ask a
and a and you get my podcast and you get

(02:01:24):
my interview with Andrew and learn young
calm and you can check the
spelling out but spell it out.
I'll post it in the show notes so they so
they get access to it. Mark, this has
been such a treat to have you on really
appreciate it's always great to to
interview, not only a fellow podcaster
but someone who writes, you know, from a
non scientist point of view,

(02:01:45):
where it's science books and just gets it
gets it like we we get it and it's it's
so great. And I love the connection you
have with the ocean and with the orcas
and I can't wait to go or go watching
with you someday. It'd be a lot. Yes, we
said thank you so much for all of you do.
I love your podcast.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Talk to you
soon. Thank you, Mark, for joining us on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast and bringing the magic of

(02:02:08):
storytelling, bringing the importance of
connection to these animals to orcas to
octopuses to sharks and to the people that are in the ocean.
I just, you know, scientists have this
bond. We we we have colleagues. We have
they turn into friends. Some of them are
colleagues. Some of them, you know, you
get a criticism from them. They might be
enemies, whatever that might be. But

(02:02:30):
there's this ultimate connection that we
all have. And it's not just scientists.
It goes to ocean conservationists. It goes to storytellers. It goes to writers. It goes to filmmakers. We we all have something in common in that we've connected with the ocean. We've connected with each other.
And when we have this connection, we want
to tell people stories. It's the
connection that I have with a lot of the

(02:02:50):
guests that I've had on, you know, it's
meeting them at conferences, meeting them
online and having them on the podcast and
hearing them tell their stories gives me that connection gives me that inspiration where after I leave this after I've done this intro, I'm doing this right after the interview. I leave this my office and I'm just like, that's the way I'm going to do it.
And I think it's, you know, you want to
do that. You want to pay tribute to the

(02:03:12):
people that you interviewed to the people
that your colleagues with the people
who've had these extraordinary
experiences, whether it be science, whether it be conservation, whether it be writing about them or creating a film about them. There is this incessant like connection that we all share and we all want to pay tribute to that. And to watch more of that, I think it's really important to us to be able to do that.
And to watch Mark pay tribute to his
heroes, you know, to Paul Watson, to Rob
Stewart, you know, to other podcasters

(02:03:34):
and so forth. It's amazing to see that
it's just amazing to see that
collaboration that ability to tell those
stories and feel that connection and then pay tribute to the people by tellingother stories, their stories through books, through the eyes and vision.
Of orcas through other whales through
octopuses is just phenomenal. And I
absolutely love it. There's a point

(02:03:54):
where, you know, markets a little
emotional telling with the story. And you
can just see that he's so into it that
the connections that he's had with these orcas, the octopuses, you know, the whales, the sharks and the people who have helped them understand the material and tell those stories.
It's just phenomenal. It's absolutely
phenomenal. It makes a great interview.
It makes a great episode. Love to hear

(02:04:16):
what you think of this episode. Go and go
to my DMS on Instagram. DM me at how to
protect the ocean. Let me know how you
feel. If you're watching this on YouTube,
just let me know how you feel about this episode and that connection and share a connection that you mighthave with the specific animals, specific animals, specific animals, and that's what I'm going to do.
I'm going to put the links in to Mark
Lane Young's website. I'm going to put it

(02:04:38):
into how you can buy his book in the show
notes. So check that out and check in the
description if you're watching this on
YouTube. But I want to thank you. I want
to thank Mark. I want to thank you for
joining us on today's episode of the how
to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your
host, Andrew from the true North strong
and free. Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next time.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Octopus Ocean Book: Exploring the Genius Minds Beneath the Waves with Mark Leiren-Young

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Octopus Ocean Book: Exploring the Genius Minds Beneath the Waves with Mark Leiren-Young

On Purpose with Jay Shetty